| IVOD_ID |
165029 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165029 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-05T10:08:37+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-05T10:23:41+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:04 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0bb7d6ea348ff1d2adf4496ab35ebdbd575289a78f60fae5462d9096eb7c9b677cccb990385a62e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:08:37 - 10:23:41 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長、國家安全局局長、經濟部次長、大陸委員會副主任委員、行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表報告「川普亞洲行及『川習會』後印太區域經濟、安全情勢對我之影響」，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席麻煩外交部長經濟部次長以及經貿談判辦公室的徐子敏請商列人員就備巡台謝謝委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
13.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
42.397 |
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現在國際環境變化非常快那很多我們在因為美國是我們第一大投資對象也是我們非常重要的科技來源地緣政治安全各方面的對象國所以跟美國之間的談判的架構其實是非常重要所以本席今天就這個主題就較於三位第一個很久沒有聽到TIFA了TIFA這一個是不是都已經終止了 |
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那個看是經濟部還是談貿販那個徐子敏應該比較知道是 向委員報告其實TIFA就是我們政府跟美國貿易代表署之間的一個經貿對話的一個架構TIFA在94年我這邊有看到94年到現在快30年了對 |
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62.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
81.358 |
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那它最早期的功能是我们参加WTO的时候有扮演一定的角色可是到最后一次TIFA开会是2021年6月30嘛2021年到现在为止台美之间的贸易投资架构协定TIFA是不是都已经没有再谈了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
82.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
99.961 |
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還是被取代了被貿易倡議取代了因為貿易代表署是同一批人所以後來TIVA就是21世紀貿易倡議同一批人有時候談不一樣的東西我現在意思是說TIVA我們現在是不是正式要告訴我們委員會TIVA已經被 |
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100.862 |
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127.027 |
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台美21世紀貿易倉益所取代了還是說因為那是同一群人我們忙著在處理貿易倉益那個是準BTA啦再處理貿易倉益所以TIVA那個暫時就擱置TIVA到底還在不在還在因為其實雙方並沒有說要把它cancel掉可是它沒有在動啊就是跟委員報告因為同一批人現在在忙著別的事情先是貿易倉益後來是對等關係談判那我就來問你忙的另外一個事情所以TIVA確實2021年 |
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130.29 |
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152.964 |
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六月底到目前為止沒有開過會了沒有再用這個名義開會那我們TIFA過來就來到台美21世紀貿易倡議這一個在雙方的形容叫做準BTA為什麼加個準他沒有簽到關稅沒有簽到關稅他是一個沒有關稅在內的經貿談判所以第一階段我們 |
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154.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
180.016 |
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是從2022年6月1號開始啟動那你看那個TIFA是2021年6月底嘛所以隔年改成這一個21世紀貿易倡議那第一階段呢當時談了一些法規啦 便捷化啦雙方服務業便捷進入規則啦等等當時還送到本委員會來核備那現在要進入到第二階段 |
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180.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
193.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那第二階段裡面就牽涉到農業還有糧食準備率還有勞工環境其實比較接近那個ESG這方面的談判了那這個部分現在在談判當中所以我現在要請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
194.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
219.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
在目前川普政府以對等關稅為主軸他認為最漂亮的字叫做Tariff就是關稅可是我們這一個21世紀貿易倡議裡面是沒有談到關稅吧 對吧是那我要請教三位這一個21世紀貿易倡議在現在的川普政府下會不會被邊緣化還有沒有在談 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
222.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
245.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
像委員報告就是上一次開會什麼時候上一次開會是去年在拜登政府任內川普政府任內沒有開過半次是 因為川普政府任內之後台美就是忙於對等關稅談判你不能老是說他現在這群人在忙這個所以那個就放著就是說大家每一個國家有自己的agenda跟他的優先次序 這個我可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
272.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
但是TIFA剛才我聽起來TIFA被這一個準BTA貿易倡議所取代了可是其實你們雙方都沒有把TIFA做一個正式的停止因為它是一個架構台美之間談的架構搞不好哪一天又重新恢復我不知道嘛它確實就沒功能了可是現在台美21世紀貿易倡議當時是在拜登要建構一個印太的framework |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
273.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
285.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
然後台灣沒有納在裡面用這個來嫁接的他的背景是這樣子我現在嚴肅的問外交部長我們外交部對這個部分到底還有沒有在談這個東西還存不存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
288.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
313.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
台美21世紀貿易倡議有12個項目啦那已經談了五個千了嘛而且經過國會那要再往前推也有三個項目啊是已經談了差不多但是因為我想美國就是也是政黨輪替嘛上一次談判是幾月幾號 去年幾月幾號 六月上一次談判 剛才那個徐子密有關這一個21世紀貿易倡議上一次談判是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
342.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
正式的談判去年五月美方USDR有來台灣後來就沒了嗎後來還是有持續的溝通沒有 後來是溝通一些農業 勞安 環境這些事情但正式談判是去年五月底嘛後來就沒有了嘛那部長我請問是去年五月底後來拜登政府跟川普他們就忙在選舉了對那一直到現在其實已經一年多快將近一年半了喔都沒有再談判了 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
343.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
367.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我剛才的問題是經濟部也可以回答就是說在川普目前高舉關稅大旗的情況下這一個準BTA是沒有關稅在內是不是形同被川普政府Pending或者暫時就不處理了這樣描述是否正確報告委員分兩點報告第一個確實如同剛剛所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
368.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
394.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
USTR現在因為是在跟全世界在做關稅的談判所以呢這個部分21世紀的貿易倡議的相關談判確實是有暫停但是呢第一階段因為都已經生效執行所以經濟部來負責的中小企業的合作這個部分的話我們確實還是有在持續的推動所以這一個倡議有簽署雙方的國會也通過之後前面五項有執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
413.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
可是後面的談判我們用Pending這個字暫時擱在那裡那目前關稅談判其實對等關稅談判已經接近尾聲了我們是少數最後幾個國家了接近尾聲之後我請教三位這一個貿易倡議會不會繼續然後繼續的時候關稅會不會進到這個裡面來你們的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
418.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
443.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
委員報告 因為川普有他的監打嘛那這個部分確實是比較停滯的狀況那隨時可以恢復那因為至於市場准錄啊包括這個關稅因為現在切出來另外談就是我想那個協議最後會簽成什麼樣比如說川普也跟不同的國家在談所謂的關稅的時候也簽了包括像科技繁榮協議或其他的大架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
472.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那這個就是每一個總統他有他自己要啟動的這兩個東西為什麼重要其實當時透過這個談判是要讓台美之間雙方進入融入然後雙方更緊密的結合不管在供應鏈跟市場讓彼此成為彼此不可或缺的夥伴關係嘛這對台灣的安全經貿坦白講對後續的關稅談判都有幫助可是我看追蹤了一段時間這個是目前停在那裡我個人表達憂心所以我現在移到下一個題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
474.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
498.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這就牽扯到CPTPPCPTPP我們從2021年6月2號我們是在2021年9月22號遞交前一兩天好像是中國遞交嘛那遞交申請書之後現在應該要進入的叫做AWG叫做陸會工作小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
499.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
527.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那英國超快速的因為英國跟他們幾乎都有FTA了所以英國快不能拿來當作台灣的指標啦但英國做一個參考英國在2021年6月2號遞交申請書2024年就成立了2021年當年就成立了AWG工作小組那目前呢像CPTPP遞交申請書的有六個國家中國哥斯大利加、厄瓜多、烏拉圭、烏克蘭以及台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
529.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
557.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那目前我們在成立工作小組請教三個單位對成立陸會工作小組樂不樂觀有沒有進度我們在做突破我最近召開了12個國家我們駐當地國的大使或代表那我們有策略但因為現在包括英國加入了然後日本是高市早苗當首相這個新的動能我們怎麼樣去運動突破的策略是什麼我跟委員報告兩點 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
558.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
575.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
一點就是說其實加拿大在去年當主席國的時候有啟動一個所謂pre-consultation也就是說入會工作小組之前的諮商是可以進行的比如我們現在已經跟某些國家展開雙邊的諮商那基少成多然後第二點呢第二點就是所謂奧克蘭三原則裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
576.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
592.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
高標準 沒有不良紀錄 再加上所謂共識覺那個共識覺的解釋不能夠任由變成少數的人去推翻多數的決定這只是成立陸會工作小組進行實質的審查我們現在陸會的優勢其實是台灣的 readiness我們大概法規的準備以及台灣優質符合國際貿易的標準我們其實是合格的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
602.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
627.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
然後台灣的民主體制我們對國營事業他對國營事業有一些規範我們是符合的然後呢我們都已經做好調適準備了另外一個優勢是台灣在全球供應鏈的韌性以及我們在IT產業以及晶片產業我們有優勢坦白講不只我們需要CPTPP他們也需要我們那我們為什麼需要他CPTPP涵蓋的範圍佔了我國貿易的36%以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
630.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
653.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
裡面我們台灣貿易的前十大國幾乎都在裡面所以這一次加入就等於一次牽扯所有的FTA這很重要但是主力當然中國是一個主力那叫地緣政治主力他利用共識覺所以我知道你剛才講上一次加拿大講的他的共識覺是不能用來當作否決權啦但是這在運作上也就困難所以我剛才請教你們策略是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
655.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
677.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
現在陸會國的審理方案其實有三個模式一個叫做先來先審先來先審我們就麻煩了因為中國其實中國不符合那個標準這個已經被確定不是第二個叫做準備程度高者先行第三個叫做政治妥協方案六國統統成立AWG |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
678.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
699.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那哥斯大黎加比中國比台灣晚送件可是哥斯大黎加呢已經成立工作小組AWG所以顯示CPTPP已經沒有採取先送先審他也許會採取政治妥協或者準備好先審所以你們現在全我們現在我們國家採取的入會的策略是哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
700.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
724.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們現在就是 當然正面是要成立陸會工作小組那我們也產開雙邊的直接的所謂的前期諮商再來我們也做了一個研究報告 這很重要也就是台灣加入的貢獻是如何 就我們的加持外交我們算出來 包括中經院這些相關的機構是對每個國家都會受惠 甚至受惠的程度如何我們都有量化的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
724.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
742.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以沒有理由說一個台灣要參加CPVT對大家都有利知我最後這樣講我可不可以讓我再一點點講那個所謂的第三原則共識覺我們現在的溝通有產生一些效果就是你反對的人要說理由啊你不能說我就是沒有同意讓你去參加這個工作你要講出理由講不出理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
744.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
767.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就代表你政治的操作嘛國際政治有時候因為你剛才講的是道理其實按道理台灣就應該參加我們的實力就應該參加我們的準備程度我們就應該參加我們的貢獻度我們就應該參加這叫得利這不叫策略策略就是你剛才講的啊你反對我要講出個道理來如果這是他們的決議那這還有點用如果這不是決議我就反對沒理由你給我加 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
768.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
790.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
對 所以要對奧克蘭三原則的補充說明如果能夠接受反對者要舉證 說明不然就是政治考量我們最後一張 我最後一分鐘要提醒就是說其實我目前把它分類這12國 大概可以分成四大類堅定支持視台灣為戰略夥伴的日本 英國 澳洲你剛才講的高視早瞄是一個新變數 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
791.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
810.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
事實上從安倍以後這個態度變化不大只是說動力高低而已英國是表明了CPTPP是一個對抗對抗中國經貿威脅的一個組織還有一種是積極協調程序推動像加拿大你剛才講的那個預先協商機制是他提出來的另外有第三種是嚴守標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
813.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
833.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我都只要符合高標準的我都樂見新加坡紐西蘭這種最麻煩的是第四個受地緣政治就受中國施壓的像秘魯這些國家所以你如果把它分類出來之後應該針對不同的國家這12國應該有不同的談判策略特別在川普用對等關稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
835.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
860.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
的當下台灣如何跟美國之外的經貿區域建立這種容易進入準FTA的機制其實對我們的經貿發展很重要所以本席今天是說這個題目其實影響非常深遠但是不會很熱鬧不會很刺激但我期待我們經濟部外交部我們經貿談判會辦好這個事情的重要性不亞於對美關稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
861.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
880.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
大家一起加油好不好這些國家我希望有一天專報是你針對不同國家有不同的策略那該機密專報我可以接受但是要有不同的方法去說理而不是同一套道理要大家接受秘魯或者某一些國家他的反對其實也沒有什麼道理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
882.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
902.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我跟委員報告 秘魯他是支持的他現在這個 因為總統也被彈劾了這個政府也處於一個過渡的階段他彈劾我們不要講 你是外交部長我們這個已經發生了事情 所以我們也在但是秘魯是相對來講是有可能的秘魯的突破其實是一個大突破後面還有一個國家 我就不講好不好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 |