| IVOD_ID |
16502 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16502 |
| 日期 |
2025-03-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2025030469 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-03-06T13:00:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-03-06T14:19:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
01:18:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea399f7e1e7955a29728e8ce12a96e948183b1540ff2c7b41b4130562cfc8aeb2c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-03-06T13:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十七條條文修正草案」，請審議案。二、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等19人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第十七條條文修正草案」，請審議案。三、委員高金素梅等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十條、第七十一條及第七十三條條文修正草案」，請審議案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:00:02 - 14:19:00 |
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4609.33596875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1964.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1988.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
謝謝大家我們現在開始開會我們今天進行的是黨團協商那麼今天的主題是本院委員鄭天才等16人凝聚公職人員選舉罷免法第57條修正草案委員鄭天才等19人凝聚公職人員選罷法第17條條文修正草案以及委員高金淑美等23人凝聚公職人員選舉罷免法第70條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1993.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2015.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
71條、73條條文修正草案等三案那麼我大概說明一下中華民國憲法徵修條文其實是保障原住民族的參政權為了確保我們族人在選舉制度當中擁有額外的代表權然而一般選區的缺額就可以馬上就補選但是原住民選區卻沒有相同的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2017.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2033.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
在2011年平地原住民立委林正二因故離職這導致平地原住民的席次就少了一席這影響到原住民族的政治參議權益因此在去年也就是113年的4月 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2035.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2047.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我提出修法並且在7月3號召開了公聽會希望能夠廣納各界的意見那麼要推動補選的機制但是呢7月4號跟7月8號大家如果還記得的話因為民進黨團杯葛了內政委員會裡面的議事所以呢這個推動補選的機制呢我們當天就沒有在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2062.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2079.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
可是7月4號跟7月8號的時候沒有辦法順利的討論但是最後召委我就宣讀了我們是禁負二讀處理那麼我們可以看到今天的這幾個修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2081.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2103.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
获得了原住民立法委员的共识还有其他各党派委员的联署那么包括民进党立法委员吴立华今天也在现场他也是共同提案了这个部分此外当时我们在开公听会的时候中选会也好 圆明会也好或者是立法院的法治局的报告 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2104.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2114.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
都是支持要維護原住民族的參政權那麼以上我大概跟大家說明除了補選的問題呢我跟鄭天才委員也共同提案這個提案呢是為了解決返鄉投票的不便還有秘密投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2124.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2140.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
受侵害的問題我們希望修法之後能夠一次性的來改善原住民長期面臨的選舉困境可以讓制度更公平然後真正落實憲法保障的參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2141.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2162.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
為了民眾共識今天特別召開了協商會議邀請各界提供意見我們來加速選罷法裡面對於原住民補選條款的通過這也確保原住民族的政治參與權不再受到影響我特別來說明一下那麼繼續這次的商案 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2165.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2191.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
在113年的7月12号本院的第11届第一会期第22次会议决议进复二读所以我们现在就来进行党团协商我现在先来介绍一下在场的委员还有行政机关列席的代表我们先介绍的是第一位到达的民众党的招职委员谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2192.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2211.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
再来是国民党团的代表罗志强委员再来介绍的是原住民的立法委员这个郑天才委员吴立华委员还有我们内政的赵伟红绿委员谢谢欢迎今天的这个 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2212.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2237.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
到場我們對於原住民的選舉的這個或者是這個迷迷投票的部分大家給予關心那麼有關本日的協商會議為了協商進度對不起我還沒介紹今天與會的各機關代表來我們歡迎內政部的常務次長吳唐安民政司司長鄭英宏 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2239.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2246.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
主任秘書 中選會的主任秘書謝美玲還有選務處處長余淑儀副處長王曉林科長賴忠祐 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2253.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2274.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
園民會的副主任委員鍾欣華法務部的參事廖江憲司法院的民視廳的法官張瑜佳大家辛苦了我們很快來進行我們的議事那麼我想是不是先請 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2276.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2287.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
各委員或者是黨團代表有一些今天的一些陳述或者是說明我們是不是先請鄭天才委員招職委員您有一個會議對不對還是單位好我們單位再請招職委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2296.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2299.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
還是我們先請趙執委員謝謝因為趙執委員代表民眾黨但是待會他還有一個會議謝謝主席謝謝各位委員還有群眾機關的這個關注這個議題的負責人 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2311.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2316.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那對於剛剛主席報告的三個案子實則是兩個精神一個就是說在因故不管任何原因下有這個缺額的時候民意代表立委有缺額的時候應該比照一般的選區要給予補選 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2329.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2332.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
或是說因為其他的狀況某一些狀況他們是要從這個能夠在保護他們的秘密的投票的一些權益因為這個環境比較特別他還能夠進行所謂的不在籍投票那這兩件事情本黨都是樂觀其成有關這個一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2351.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2357.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
比較一般選區的補選我個人認為這個是代表黨團這是天經地義為什麼到現在就是說才來做這個修改所以應該就是有缺額就補選就是把這個名額把它補滿既然我們的選舉制度裡面是這樣子的來保障原住民的朋友們第一個沒有疑問的我們就是支持能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2378.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2403.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
比照一般選區的補選那至於不再投票本來就是本黨的一貫主張我們本來是甚至希望能夠是廣泛的普遍的來進行那現在原住民這個部分有幾位委員的優先提出來了那這個適用範圍雖然比本黨所主張的是小但是也不妨礙是一個好的開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2404.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2406.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
就是從這樣的方式從這樣特定的一個不管是選區族群等等我們來試行所謂的其多很多其他先進國家試辦多年的一個不在籍投票這不在籍投票其實是攸關這個選舉人的權益啦不管是為了總統原因必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2426.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2440.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
請假告假等等很多狀況他沒有辦法去履行他自己的義務或是他的權利所以有關這個由原住民朋友來示範所謂的不在籍投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2441.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2447.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
民眾黨給予完全的支持這也是希望說在這裡事辦之後我們了解狀況希望也能夠儘早回到本黨的主張我們是主張是大家一起來那對原住民同胞更是完全支持好謝謝非常謝謝昭治委員對於原住民族人的權益的問題的這個支持也謝謝民眾黨團繼續我們請志強委員您有要先發言嗎好我們請羅志強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2475.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2501.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我覺得這兩個提案都非常有意義除了說讓原住民更方便投票之外另外尤其對於所謂的缺額補選的部分我覺得限制的規定是對原住民是非常不公平因為原來的限制規定可能是針對普遍像包括縣市議員那種多席次選舉他所做的一個規範可能是從所謂的節省選務成本的角度考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2502.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2531.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
但是放在原住民的中央級的立法委員我覺得這個原則是完全不合理的為什麼因為當初設計平原跟山原三名原住民的立法委員就是希望能夠有一個足夠的民意代表能夠來幫大家去發聲但是現在如果萬一發生缺額情況之下實際上如果沒有缺額到二分之一以上那你就不補選 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2532.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2553.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個規定就很奇怪那也就是說換言之三個月委員必須只剩下一個的時候才要補選不是一個很奇怪的事情嗎完全不合理的一個法律所以因此我非常支持今天就把這個當初立法不周的地方從漢外原住民的角度我們覺得應該要把它補強所以國民黨立法委員黨團就是全力支持這兩個法案謝謝非常謝謝代表國民黨團的陸志強委員那我們是不是請這個鄭天才委員也補充說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2565.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2592.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好先談這個實施不再舉投票就是第17條的部分這個部分當我過去對於原住民先行這個辦理不再舉投票最主要考量的就是說中央的公職人員選舉就是也就是立法委員的部分了因為我們選區就是全台灣台澎金嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2593.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2621.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以跟總統的一樣都是前臺灣所以過去也都有提案但是第九屆第十屆都沒有完成立法那在我們就以現在的現任的中選會的主任委員來說他也非常支持他一再的無論是我質詢或是武力法質詢或是其他的原住民立委質詢他都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2623.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2640.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是一直都沒有提案都沒有提法律案當然中選會認為說這個是內政部的法案所以這個部分是會牽涉到這個部分當然因為這一次比較特殊是因為是禁覆二讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2642.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2662.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以沒有把那個總統副總統選舉罷免法的條文也一併過來所以這個部分以今天來講以今天來講這個第17條可能就有它的難度所以這個部分因為這個必須要總統跟副總統選舉罷免法一併去處理這是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2667.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2693.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我還是要這個要跟這個內政部次長哈因為我也沒有質詢過你啊這個你新上任之前我提了很多次我們台灣呢非常多的外勞我就擠這個印尼印尼 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2694.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2713.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
他们的都在台湾投票啊我们自称为先知多么民族法治国家先进的国家啊他们外劳啊印尼的外劳我本来不知道啊因为我的我家有外劳 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2714.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2729.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
說他明天要去投票在哪裡投票 在花蓮我就特別去關注在北部或是在各縣市都有他們的投票的地方我們竟然不如他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2730.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2750.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
竟然不如他們所以這個部分要請內政部也必須要提出這樣的一個最起碼先從原住民的立法委員開始實施最容易的因為我們台澎金馬每一個投票所我們都有投票所都有原住民立法委員的投票所 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2751.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2776.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
所以這個實施上在協務工作上毫無困難所以這個部分也請內政部和中選會也能夠這個我看當這個案今天因為沒有沒有總統選舉辦法在一起所以這個部分就先不處理我的建議是這樣但是很重要就是內政部中選會務必要趕快 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2778.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2800.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
另外第57條的部分就是涉及到秘密投票秘密投票這邊中選會或是內政部的理由不充分因為過去本來57條就有了本來57條就有了我只不過是加了不受第17條 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2802.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2830.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
規定那個一定要在那個戶籍所在地來投票這裡面就是讓我們原住民去你可以收小你的範圍不涉及到要到外縣市不涉及到要到外縣市你要在同一個縣市你在處理的時候為了秘密投票這個憲法所賦予的憲法所賦予的秘密投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2831.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2860.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們要怎麼樣去落實一直都沒有落實所以不得本來法律就已經規定了57條本來就可以了但是因為你們涉及到村里長的選舉啊然後就涉及影響所以最起碼同一個鄉鎮市區最起碼在同一個鄉鎮市區讓原住民去選擇他要選擇立法委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2862.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2888.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
選舉或者是直轄市縣市議員的選舉他要去投票但是秘密投票他要被保護他可以放棄村里長的投票由他決定由他來決定由原住民的選民去決定他要不要放棄如果你認為有困難的話本來沒有困難啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2890.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2912.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
本來也沒有困難啊同一個區他投票就算里長就移過去啊移到那邊去開票啊那什麼困難呢所以請內政部請中選會請我們各黨團能夠支持本席所提的第57條的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2914.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2933.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我剛看了一下武力法委員所提的修正剛剛書面上的部分他那個是涉及到整個移轉到不同的縣市我是建議是先暫緩那個部分那個會涉及到不價值投票的部分以上建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2934.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2946.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
非常謝謝曾經才委員我可不可以這個再補充一下你的意見就是您的第57條跟第17條那個您今天沒有一定要寫上的意思那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2948.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2964.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
不再舉投票的部分就暫緩但是57條是秘密投票的你還希望能夠希望大家能夠支持能夠三讀通過以上了解 好 謝謝繼續我們請這個紅綠綠州委我先請吳麗華委員因為她比較先到 好 謝謝好 謝謝主席 大家午安今天在這裡其實我也蠻高興的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2977.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3001.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
誠如剛才前面幾位委員所說我過去多次的在內政委員會中選會或內政部的質詢都有提到目前我們的選罷法有很多對原住民設計不公的地方那一直以來我們也都有提版本但是就很遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3002.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3022.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
大家都有提到他不僅僅是有不公平的現象也有立法不周的部分所以今天大家能夠因為罷免伍麗華陳寅然後特別的來重視這個問題我個人呢其實也是覺得求仁得仁心安理得我也很高興 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3023.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3040.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那但是呢因為我的版本當時並沒有排審還好在我自己呢也有共提別的委員的版本所以今天我可以在這邊討論另外呢我也去做了一些修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3042.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3059.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那我的部分我要談因為今天我們這幾條啊除了57條不在即其他都是在討論補選機制可是大家都很清楚知道剛才鄭天才委員有講到照理說我們今天只談處理補選其實應該要連動罷免跟所謂的選區劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3067.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3093.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以要怎么样整全我想今天无论再怎么修可能还是会有很多的问题那我举个例子来说因为这个未来就算是到宪法诉讼也会发生问题那这个过去我在质询的时候也都有提醒过因为我们现在来讲我们在选举的时候因为我们是复苏选区所以我们在选举的时候是每人投一票 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3094.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3120.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
可是呢我們在罷免的時候會遇到其他的人的支持者可以罷掉其中一位的立法委員所以呢他會變成是選舉的票跟罷免的票不等值所以這個是以前我就提過的一個問題那第二個就是說今天可能各位也不太清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3121.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3141.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們選舉的時候是一張票可是因為我們是複數選區所以我們原住民啊我們手上可以有罷免的三張票也就是說我們三位山地原住民的立法委員每一個連署人他可以選擇連署一張連署三位通通罷掉都可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3142.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3165.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以這又面臨選舉的票跟罷免的票又不等值所以這個過去我都有說出來過那再來就是說剛才也有人提到那為什麼同樣的複數選區議員全國一致都是複數選區使用同一種遊戲規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3167.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3191.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
為什麼我們原住民的立委要跟一般的區域立委卻有不同的制度所以我覺得這個部分應該過去我就一直強調重新選區劃分原住民立委改成單一選制我覺得這個部分才是根本解決我們原住民選制不公的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3192.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3221.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那剛才主席也有提到我們今天來討論這個是因為憲法保障那要談到憲法保障我們就要來處理不在即怎麼說過去我們也有提很多的立委在一般區域立委的時候也有提因為現在憲法保障我們原住民的這個席次那個叫做額外保障那我們既有原住民的身份我們也有在地公民的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3222.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3246.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
我今天如果落籍在台北市照理說我應該有兩票制這個才是回到憲法所稱的保障原住民的一個權利所以我隨隨便便這樣子提就有很多很多我們應該待解決的問題那但是沒有關係因為今天也就只有談補選 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3248.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3277.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我想他會衍生為了解決這個問題會衍生更多的問題但是我再次重申我向來就主張原住民不管任何理由出缺就一定要補選這個是沒有意見的那因為這是憲法保障的但是我就特別去提出一個修正動議就是我跟共體版不一樣的部分就是我有特別修訂一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3278.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3289.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
若因罷免事由出缺者缺而補選投票之當選者其當選票數不得低於被罷免人質當選票數 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3291.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3310.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我想這個理由應該是大家都能夠理解接受既然我剛剛前面提到的票票不等值既然罷免可以用票票不等值的狀況去罷掉一個委員那麼補選的這個當選人的民意應該要高於這個委員的得票數 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3311.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3330.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我想這個部分是我今天強調的就今天的一個補選機制討論我希望大家可以來支持這一條我們才能夠回到大家一直在講的這種所謂消除消米原住民選擇一個不公平的一個現象所以在這邊我先做這樣的一個發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3336.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3353.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好謝謝吳麗華委員的說明但是我必須要在這邊還是要作為一個召委的身份我還提醒一下吳麗華委員我們這一次的朝野協商還有這個提案不是針對您或者是這個陳毅委員大家可以回想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3353.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3356.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
在113年也就是民進黨還沒有推動大罷免的時候這個法案就已經提出來了並且呢在7月3號開過公聽會7月4號跟8號我們都在內政委員會要排審但是因為民進黨的佔據整個主席台 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3384.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3409.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
主席我也要補充我其實我剛剛有講求仁得仁我心安理得但是我要說的是我們確實都有提版本我現在提的不是主席你個人也不是鄭天才委員我是指國民黨這麼重要的大家都說很重要原來原來如此大家才知道說原來原住民的選制這麼不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3410.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3435.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
多少次我們都有提版本都可以討論但是去年的七月不處理那現在要處理我沒有說不好但是很容易落入大家覺得說為什麼急著在這個時候處理那未來我希望所有原住民權益相關的都比照今天這樣的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3436.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3463.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
立刻來排審立刻來協商立刻來三讀謝謝好 謝謝吳麗華的再補充說明我要再補充說明這個不是國民黨團排的橋也協商是我做內政委員會我做召委的時候當時下的結論好嗎這不是第一個不是跟任何黨團有規定第二我也非常謝謝身為原住民的立法委員吳麗華委員在這邊一直在呼籲就是不管哪一個政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3464.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3489.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
能夠共識原住民的權益所以今天我們更希望民進黨團民進黨執政的這個不管是中委中選會也好民政司也好內政部也好園民會也好法務部也好司法院也好希望待會能夠支持原住民的權益好嗎待會當然你們有提一些書面報書面報告也讓你們簡短的說明一下繼續我們請張鴻路委員謝謝召委謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3494.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3507.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝高津召委我覺得我們在看這個修法 要看長久我們不要看怎麼樣我只有一個啦 如果說我們先講這個原住民的這個補選的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3509.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3530.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
當然啦如果沒有補選的話是對原住民的這個在國會裡面的這個聲音是沒有受到保障這點我們必須要去重視不過不過啦我覺得在一個複數選區的這個設計之下如果我們今天只有休立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3531.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3548.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那議員代表我們是不是也要一起去考量而不是只有這樣你在議員代表一樣都是複數選區的情況之下他們就沒有補選那我覺得要解決這個問題除了這樣子的修法之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3550.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3573.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
把原住民的這個如果化為多個選區讓他也是這個單一選區這樣子就不會有這個麻煩但當然這個知識體大那我只是要說就是說如果我們今天只修這個你的議員的部分我們是不是也要通盤考量這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3573.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3596.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
另外這個政委員的這個不在己這個你說如果在一個鄉鎮市其實我認我對秘密的我知道你說那個對那個你叫我今天就不討論了那你說秘密的那個我個人認為你說的有道理可是要執行的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3598.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3625.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
有沒有辦法這可能要問他們因為你必須知道你如果村里長的投票或鄉鎮市長的投票跟這個到時候要怎麼來處理到時候是不是為了要投票他兩次去跑來跑去是不是又增加更大的困擾我覺得這個技術性的層面反而是比這個我們要去做的更我們要思考的你說的那個我認為是 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3628.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3649.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
有道理但是能不能做到我倒覺得要讓他們來想一下啦好不好好謝謝非常謝謝第一輪我們在場的委員們各自的表述我們現在是不是也請這個協商官員也來做說明一下我們先請內政部的常務次長吳次長謝謝我們盡量簡短一點好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3657.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3685.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
謝謝趙偉也謝謝國民黨及民進黨還有民眾黨的委員的一些說明那我想我這邊先簡單做一個回應我想我們我國實施民主政治很久那我們目前其實投票日都是當天到戶籍地的投票那過程不僅公開透明而且當日可以馬上可以確定有結果那也勝負社會各界信賴至於不在籍投票的時事其實會對我們目前的既有制度跟投開票的方式其實會產生一些變革 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3686.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3700.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那外國雖然也有很多實施的經驗但是也有很多的爭議所以是如何採行這個部分是建議要審慎的通盤那另外剛剛鄭委員有談到就是我們雖然說不再集投票這邊是先暫時不討論但是我這邊先 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3701.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3718.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
是 那我簡單說明一下因為我國的選舉制度其實目前總統選總統副總統是一種那立法委員因為單一的選票有兩票制所以也包括區域有73種的一個選票三元 平原也有兩種跟政黨票一種那所以總計 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3722.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3741.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
我這邊再做簡單補充 剛剛鄭委員談到秘密投票的部分我想秘密投票因為我們是要維護秘密投票的機制所以當然有部分開票所還是會因為產生像原住民的一個選票極少剛剛委員也有談到可能里長的部分他可以選擇不投等等 但是其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3742.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3766.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
那都還是在同一個選區的處理那至於如果是跨選區那以原名的部分那其實會有跨到選區以外因為我們是全國性投票所以說它還是會有一些因為有開票的時候多跟少的部分那我這個部分我們會建議因為這會涉及到包括這個聯同因為我們總統選舉跟原住民其實都是在同一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3766.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3789.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
如果說原住民的選舉的部分跟總統是分開的話那會產生只有原民才會有會有調整選區還有說不在籍的部分這個還是要兩個一起看那我想這個部分等一下也可以請中選會這邊來做一些說明至於實施的方式會產生什麼樣的部分那我想那再來就是剛我們委員會關心到包括70條71條73條 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3792.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3812.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那這個部分當然希望是說原民的立委也比照區域立委的一個選舉的方式來做統一的處理但是在初切的原則上第一個還是有當然以選務來講選舉的經費執行的成本其實這個部分等一下是不是也看看州選會的意見為何那以內政部的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3813.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3831.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
還是希望也可以徵詢到各界的意見如果有一個完整的凝聚的共識這樣往下去推在選務的部分中選會如果能夠順利執行當然是最好那我們這邊還是建議會徵求各界的意見來凝聚共識以上補充謝謝次長我們繼續請中選會是主任秘書嗎好謝謝主秘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3838.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3856.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
主席各位委員大家好那中選會先針對政委員所提的第57條的修正案來做說明那委員是考量為了保障原住民投票的秘密來增訂這個條文那目前在這個條文的這個後段有提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3859.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3873.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
選委會來設置這個投票所那是不受第十七條第一項應該在戶籍地投票的限制規定那這樣子的條文呢可能會導致是不是實施原住民不在籍投票的一個疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3874.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3894.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那另外相關的問題剛才委員也提到就是說是不是讓原住民他自己可以選擇包括是不是要放棄里長選舉投票這樣子的問題也就是說在這樣子的一個規範下是不是能夠讓我們的原住民選舉人都可以完整來行使各種選舉的選舉權那這個也可能要考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3898.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3918.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
另外一方面 如果我們把原住民選舉人的選票移轉到舊境的村裡來做投票的話在開票的時候 因為我們目前是就地開票在村里長的選舉 他的投票秘密可能也還是會有無法維護投票秘密這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3920.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3939.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那以上的意見再給委員參考那另外針對昭緯所提的我們70條、71條還有73條的修正條文那基於原住民族的參政權益那規定原住民立法委員出缺就補選那具有維護原住民民意代表性的一個正面作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3940.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3967.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那這部分涉及選舉政策的部分中選會是尊重內政部的意見那另外也跟各位委員報告我們原住民立法委員的選舉他是用以全國為選舉區那不管我們出缺補選是補選一席或兩席那其實對中選會來講我們都是辦理全國性的選舉那有關全國性的選舉要花費大量人力物力這一類的資源那請委員審議的時候並同考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3969.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3975.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
主席各位委員大家好針對本次修正條文草案進行的說明那剛剛委員都有特別提到憲法徵修條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3994.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4021.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
對於保障原住民族的地位跟政治參與凡是能夠進一步保障原住民族政治參與跟的政策以及選務機關能夠妥適執行的政策跟方向來講原民會均表支持那針對高精素美委員等所提的幾個條文的修正草案是有關原住民立委補選制度的修正採取跟區立委立法委員一致之平衡處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4022.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4049.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那有助於提升原住民族政治參與之保障為本案試射選務規劃跟執行可行性的專業評估所以本會尊重內政部跟中選會的權責另外鄭天才委員等所提到的第57條的修正修正條文的部分同時保障族人秘密投票的問題是本會所樂見那因為也因為試射整體選擇跟選務專業的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4051.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4077.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
本會尊重相關單位的權責 以上的報告 非常謝謝原民會中副主委以上我們內政部跟中選會跟原民會的說明會簡單的講一下原民會是非常的顧及原民原民的權益非常謝謝您跟主任站在一起但是內政部跟這個中選會的部分對於這個原住民補選的部分尤其是中選會一直在講人力物力不要忘記了原住民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4078.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4104.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
平地原住民三席跟三地原住民三席這是憲法保障的那如果他要跟一般選區不一樣的話這的確是踐踏了原住民的選舉權還有參政權以及我們人民被服務的權利我希望下次在這邊再提到這件事情的時候能夠聽聽吳立華委員剛剛的說法好不好我們沒有任何一個政黨的考量然後今天也不是為了所謂的大罷免或者是針對性的我一直在講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4105.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4123.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我已經在民進黨要提出大罷免之前我就已經提案了所以今天我不希望再聽到有人把這件事情把它跟這一次的大罷免自己要連上等號我們希望排除一些政治的考量真正為了原住民權益參政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4126.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4149.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
以及人民被服務權的這個權利著想好不好把他拋開政治的議題原住民的議題回到原住民的權益好嗎剛剛那個我們的官員都已經講完了我們請曾天才委員發言那我在想如果大家沒有再繼續發言我們等一下就走到台下我們就大家來來每一條的文字來協商一下好嗎謝謝有關第57條 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4154.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4179.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
在強調就是說秘密投票是憲法所賦予的這是要保障的這個是我們要為最高的原則來去看待所以我們就講南港七方法很多我們就用最最簡單的方法比如說南港七 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4180.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4201.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我們就設一個投票所在七公所幾個例子就在七公所設一個無論是立法委員的或者是縣市直轄市議員的時候在南港區也有市長嘛對不對也有村里長我們就以那個我們就以這個直轄市議員的選舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4206.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4234.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
有直轄市市長有村里長有直轄市的原住民的市議員三種票嘛對不對南港七我們就放在南港七公所幾個例子放在南港七公所原住民的議員的部分在南港七公所投票讓他不要產生違反秘密投票的這個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4236.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4262.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
然後村里長他還是回到他的原來的村里長的選那個投票所他要去跑兩次他決定了對的由他來決定了沒有很遠了事實上我們的鄉親都願意了沒有很遠了對跑兩次嘛對不對這個也是一種設計的方式之一了 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4263.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4274.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
當然你要考慮到很多的因素這個我只是舉例子舉一個例子不會影響也沒有剝奪它由它來決定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4279.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4301.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
好 非常謝謝我要先離開那我可以講最後一次那個很謝謝昭緯主席就是有提到說沒有考量到任何的政黨那我要特別就是拜託因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4303.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4319.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
說實在我也只來五年了這是第二屆了但是至少我質詢關心這個選制對原住民不公的問題真的不下十次那也提過版本那好不容易大家都那麼重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4320.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4339.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我是希望說因為我要先離開我的那個第73條第二項的那個修正動議文字那個我在這邊拜託趙薇主席能夠就是尊重因為剛才大家都聽到了對不起吳委員你是73條不是72條73因為剛才中選會的回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4345.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4360.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
還有內政部的回覆我在質詢台上已經聽過無數次了每一次就是這樣子講沒有反對但是很多理由那我想這個他們也不是主因因為要不要過 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4361.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4377.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
也是要看我們願不願意讓他過嘛所以我想說既然現在球已經回到我們這邊那我就拜託一下那個趙薇主席我的那個73條第二項的修正動議我是希望能夠一定要納入因為這個要保障我們的補選出來的好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4384.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4384.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
紅綠委員看了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4399.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4421.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
因為剛剛我有徵求大家的意見就是說本日協商的過程公開發言內容已經記錄了因為仍待繼續溝通取得共識後續呢 依立法院的職權刑事法第12章相關的規定我們已起院長召開協商會議 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4422.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4435.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
但是因為您的修正動議是剛剛才提出來我們也是剛剛才看到所以是不是我們今天就不處理修正動議因為我提的那個版本吳麗華您也是共同的提案人 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4437.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4463.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
您知道嗎因為我原來是共同的提案是我的版本然後我的意見也沒有放進來我只是說我對不起我還原一下我共提了我共提了對我提了版本但是因為我原來的版本沒有所以我必須要再送出來的條文你有你的條文對你先聽我講完你有你的版本但是你的版本呢並沒有在我們內政委員會的時候要進一步協商我們的版本是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4464.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4484.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
就是進入協商是只有今天我們的那你修正動物是剛剛才提出來的所以我們就不在這一次的協商好嗎我這些話只是為了要寫在公報上沒關係就記錄我就是希望說到時候因為我們每次都是受限於部會的想法嘛那現在好不容易求在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4484.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4498.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
我就希望說我的意見要採納嘛因為這不是為了罷免我嘛就是因為我們是共同提案人嘛我提的版本你也是共同提案人所以您的提案也在裡面好不好來 請紅路召委其實高靖召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4504.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4515.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
吳立法委員他的這個如果在院長協商的時候啊我們時間讓他讓他知道他讓吳委員去說啦我覺得這樣就可以解決啦沒有問題這是他的權益不是啊就讓他知道時間啊他就過去了OK沒問題到時候韓院長召開協商的時候一定會讓各黨團知道原住民的立法委員都可以參與就我了解韓院長是這樣子曾經說明過就是只要是原名的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4534.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4549.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
原住民立法委員縱使不是黨團三長都可以到現場來提出發言所以這個部分也提供吳立華委員參考好嗎好所以呢這個我剛剛已經宣讀了協商的會議所以好 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4552.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4568.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好 等一下簽一下好不好 紅綠委員本日協商的過程公開發言內容已經記錄了那麼仍待繼續溝通取得共識後續依立法院職權行使法第12章相關的規定我們已請院長召開協商會議 好嗎謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4572.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4582.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
啊沒關係啦都一起然後到時候到時候再再再再再告訴院長那個就不用了吧好嗎好謝謝好那我來簽名了謝謝好非常謝謝洪路委員謝謝民進黨民眾黨國民黨團也謝謝鄭天才委員也謝謝各部會的代表謝謝你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4603.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4625.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這個不用簽嗎?反正也送沒有簽沒關系不用簽喔?這個沒有簽沒關系喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4629.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4641.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
好,我先打一卡好,我先打一卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4659.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4666.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
這裏有個大廈,是一間大廈 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4676.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4676.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
謝謝大家。 |