| IVOD_ID |
164977 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164977 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-4-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第7次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第7次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-04T10:20:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-04T10:35:51+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:35 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92d7873cb56ba25f5f14d671409cfaaa278cc3fca10ad78dc76c4bccc10df23bf24a9b87407f9c345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
高金素梅 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:20:16 - 10:35:51 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團擬具「樺加沙風災暨花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩災後重建特別條例草案」，請審議案；本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「樺加沙風災暨花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩災後重建特別條例草案」，請審議案等5案。（10月31日）二、對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢。三、10月31日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。四、11月4日下午2時15分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。） |
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謝謝主席我們有請卓院長還有園民會曾主委謝謝卓院長還有曾主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
22.794 |
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45.625 |
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我今天要想跟你們談的是新版的財化法通過之後統籌分配稅款增加到8841億元這是地方財政改革的一大進步但是在行政院修訂補助辦法改變了一般性補助款的定義之後一切都變了掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
46.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
74.168 |
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今天我要指出的是修法後的一般性補助款的執行管理的機制我覺得非常的鬆散這會讓弱小的部會還有弱勢的地區會被限制邊緣化而今天我談的最典型的例子就是園民會跟55個園鄉今天我就以園民會你們明年度所編列的所謂的一般性補助款來就教曾竺偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
75.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
78.167 |
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圓明會在明年的預算裡面首次 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
79.822 |
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105.093 |
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編列了一般性補助款25.99億元然而這25.99億元卻不是園民會你們新增的預算是從過去園民會的所謂的計劃型補助還有公務預算編列的科目移過來的這包含了什麼基本設施維持費6.4億部落特色道路2.4億還有部落聯絡道路的養護經費0.8億 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
108.234 |
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122.215 |
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曾主委我想請教你請你簡短的說什麼是一般性補助款一般型補助款跟競爭型補助款是不一樣的就是一般型本來就是在補助各地方政府公所也好縣政府也好一般性的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
122.981 |
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141.182 |
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好 我講得更具體一點好了你們現在行政院今年修的一般性補助款的補助範圍限於具經常性 普及性 基本設施或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡這些項目 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
141.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
157.208 |
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一般性補助款撥到縣市政府之後怎麼使用我們中央控管的力道是有限的而縣市政府往往會因為施政的順序考量他會投入原鄉或者是偏鄉的預算就會變少 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
158.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
182.977 |
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民國91年本席就任立法委員以後我開始針對原鄉長年遭到制度性的忽視治理體系的失靈的現象我在這裡提出我的質詢還有要求經過二十幾年的制度調整還有建立我們終於讓原民會在預算上變成了一個可以講說是正常的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
183.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
199.766 |
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而其中最核心的價值就是行政院讓園民會的預算可以例外處理在台灣省政府的年代園鄉的各項建設都是由省府編列預算還有執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
200.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
216.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
原鄉的部落道路、鄉道、縣道、省道都歸公路局來主管原鄉的農路還有治山防洪這些工程歸農林廳的三地農牧局來管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
217.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
239.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
而但是這些原鄉的基礎建設在動審之後經費預算全部移撥到地方縣市政府而省府每年應該要給原鄉的9億的農路還有19億的鄉道養護的預算行政院全部化為所謂的一般性補儲款下放給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
240.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
262.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
而這些過去挹注在原鄉的省府預算中央部會就不再編列了於是地方縣市政府拿到這些經費之後它會基於選票的考量預算往往不會投入到地廣人稀的原鄉再加上原來省屬單位的專業的人力也移撥到了中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
263.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
274.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
而地方政府在沒有人力沒有專業的狀況可以執行政策的時候呢這就造成了原鄉連續數年的政策空窗期 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
276.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
302.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
立法院在民國98年的預算審查的報告也非常明確的指出從民國90年起原屬省府專案的農路灌溉管路的改善經費改為一般性補助款由縣市政府來統籌而由於地方財政還有人力不足因此農路灌溉水路長年無法維修這是我們審預算的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
303.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
321.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
審查報告明確的指出在98年的時候而當時的行政院長游錫昆他說了一句話他說地方能做的我們中央就不要做這句口號讓原鄉的政策空轉了五年我們回顧一下民國93年的七二水災還有愛麗風災 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
322.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
348.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
他重創了中北部的泰雅族地區特別是位處石門水庫集水區的新竹縣的尖石鄉還有桃園縣的復興區部落道路因為我們的農路還有動損之後連續五年沒有經費養護而這些在風災之中被摧毀殆盡因而阻斷了我們的族人的逃生還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
349.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
370.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
救灾的路线而石门水库集水区的国有林斑地更发生了大规模的土石崩塌这也造成了石门水库的淤积也造成了桃园地区连续停水了20天而当时的行政院就开始急救张推动了所谓的八年八百亿的水患治理特别条例 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
370.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
389.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是行政院的版本卻僅僅針對下游編列預算來整治它完全忽視了上中上游必須要整體治理最後在這裡經過本席的提案才終於甄編了上游跟的還有中游的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
389.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
408.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
治傷防災每年20億8年是160億的經費來逐年解決了北泰亞部落還有其他原鄉的土石流的問題主委這就是原住民族面對所謂的一般性補助款帶來的血淋淋的教訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
409.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
433.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們沒有經常性的預算來改善原鄉的基礎設施只好用所謂的特別預算來重建部落主委您是資深的公務人員了動損之後原鄉我講的這些慘痛的經歷您也經歷過而現在你身為園民會的主委對於這個所謂的一般性的補助款您有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
434.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
454.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我跟委員報告我們這個114年大概是32.38億那115年我們是編26億就差了6.3億這主要就是要配合中長城的公共建設計畫分配的額度那我們會調整補助那未來我們希望我們還要 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
455.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
483.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
還要再增提細題一些工界的計畫簡單講我們會再補題一些計畫少的6.3億我們會再補更重要一點就是這幾年來公所其實最迫切需要做的就是我們現在正在做重建的這些條例我們大概有40億的機會要用在原鄉重建條例他是有年限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
484.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
488.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
而且他是有地區性的好嗎謝謝您在這裡的補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
489.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
516.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
其實我聽不太清楚沒關係事後我會再請您來補充說明本席就任這立委的23年來其實我最重要的工作就是在重建動省之後原住民的政策還有我們的預算我記得我剛就任的時候也就是民國91年原民會為了要改善部落道路每年都要去跟公路總局低頭要經費預算從所謂的1億 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
517.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
538.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
或兩億不等沒有法定的預算科目也沒有執行的方案而部落的這些道路的建設就處在不確定的狀況之下有沒有經費可以做然後一直在不確定同時期部落的排水溝還有擋土牆這些基礎建設也是完全停擺的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
539.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
562.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
也因為這麼樣子所以96年初呢在本席的陪同之下原住民族地區有55位鄉鎮市長到行政院拜訪蘇貞昌院長在蘇院長的支持之下每年開始編列了5.9億的基本設施維持費直接撥付到鄉公所讓鄉公所他能夠維持最基本的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
563.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
583.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
部落的基礎建設的運作而同樣在民國96年的時候也在這個地方北溪對面站著是已故的張俊雄院長我在這裡質詢他我們原住民的道路的預算非常的短缺當時的張院長他傾聽民意他也採納了我的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
583.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
601.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他立刻做了三點的決議交辦給行政院的各部會也請院長您聽一下第一個決議是96年將2.7億的道路預算保留延續執行第二個是97年除了編列9900萬的預算之外不足的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
602.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
619.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他承诺可以动用第二预备金来执行第三个是原乡的部落道路预算总需求是29.9亿97年开始要折成原民会以4年的中程计划30亿逐年来编列 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
621.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
650.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
解決需求的問題這就是張俊雄前院長令人非常尊敬跟敬佩的而部落的道路養護1.7億的預算怎麼來的呢也是本席在110年我站在這裡質詢當時是再一度做行政院長的蘇院長他在聽完我的質詢之後他也認為道路沒有養護的預算這非常的不公平也不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
651.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
668.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以在110年核定的這一筆預算從112年起開始編列我以上講的這幾項重要的原住民的政策是本席跟歷任的行政院長透過質詢還有政策溝通我們為原鄉建立了預算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
668.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
694.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
例外處理情形為的是什麼為的是要保障原住民原民會的預算不受政治的干擾實質有效率的直接到達原住民部落在這裡我要再請教曾主委今年度的特色道路預算多少特色道路應該是跟去年差不多沒有沒有刪多少而且我們那個基本設施維持會那6億多都沒有刪掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
696.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
712.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我提醒你今年的特色道路叫做計劃型的補助是6.9億而明年的你們叫做一般性補助2.4億少了4.5億我還再請教你部落聯絡道路的養護今年是多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
715.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
728.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好你回答不出來沒關係今年你們叫做計劃型的補助1.7億而明年呢又叫做一般性的補助了0.8億這活生生少了0.9億 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
729.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
759.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
院長您看到的這個數據這是園民會明年道路的預算我們不管他是編列所謂的計劃型補助還是一般性補助我們的特色道路打了4折道路養護的預算打了5折我再怎麼加總園鄉的道路預算明年度就活活少了5億啊還有另外一件事情是明年一般性的補助款為什麼只有園民會跟客委會必須要有行政院你們主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
759.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
762.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
而其他的部會不用我請院長回答這兩個問題謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
764.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
793.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第一個剛剛主委有提到過一些交通的建設未來中長期它是逐年發生的我們會在未來的一般性補充當中來編列預算所以明年看起來或許會有一些金額上的減少這是中長期的另外有一些是必須因為財政收入方法調整之後新修法之後中央跟地方必須就地方政府的財政集赤來做分擔有些部分是地方政府要去負擔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
794.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
814.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這兩個部分跟委員先說明不過剛剛委員有提到一點你說當初省府的業務關於原住民撥給地方 地方不願執行所以省府後來把這個業務都撥給中央了那如果這樣的話在財政收受法案法的時候就應該保留部分在中央但現在完全又跑到地方去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
815.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
825.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
院長我剛剛已經講到了變成一般性補助款的時候它會變成縣市政府的考量這是第一個第二個財政如果不好的話他們也不會放到 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
826.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
853.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
人少的地區這就是我二十幾年來在這邊跟歷任的行政院長爭取的部分所以你現在又回歸到給地方政府歷任行政院長在財化法的理念下是有這個財力的未來是沒有這個財力的必須要做例外來處理你如果再用一般性補助款給地方政府我們會少了非常多的狀況就是我剛剛以上提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
853.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
872.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那我只是一句話請委員我們共同來支持未來行政院提出的才華版本我們才有版本就是我剛剛就把錢都給地方啦未來我就沒有辦法像張院長蘇院長性普及性基本建設或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
873.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
888.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
請問一下 縣市政府如果錢不夠的話他會把他的錢放在人少的偏鄉或原鄉地區嗎所以這不公平就會開始了 縣長 院長 最後我要再提醒我今天不想跟你吵架 我是在跟你談論 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
889.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
906.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
在整體原住民自治之前我們不管在預算或者是政策上我們都必須要例外來處理否則所謂的民主原則就是經費往人多的地方去而沒有財源的原鄉或者偏鄉將成為永遠的窮鄉所以錢要保留在中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
913.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
925.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以一般性補助款不適用於院在園民會第二個問題你沒有回答為什麼園民會的一般性補助款和柯委會就必須要行政院同意為什麼好 |