| IVOD_ID |
16476 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16476 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
27 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-16T08:30:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-16T12:23:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:52:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dd3145752a37048ca445fc32f41448fc018d20170ff19eea6c7d994fe28c642595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長、大陸委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署報告「針對海底電纜係國家對外重要通訊手段，為避免中共利用各種灰色地帶手段測試我國網路及電網韌性情事發生，如何建立有效備援系統以支援軍事作戰並支撐基礎建設防護韌性」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:16 - 12:23:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1871.565 |
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報告委員會初期委員8人已足法定人數開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1884.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1906.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第二會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年1月15日星期三上午9時3分至10時56分地點紅樓山林議會議室出席委員盧美琳等10人列席委員鍾嘉斌等6人請教委員馬文君列席人員喬武委員會委員長許家青及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1907.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1933.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席林昭吉委員議軍報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二邀請僑務委員會委員長報告因應世界政經局勢變化如何在總和外交政策中串聯僑界匯聚海外僑力獲爭友台力量壯大我國經貿實力並被質詢僑務委員會委員長許家青報告委員羅美林等9人質詢均由僑務委員會委員長許家青即席答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1934.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1957.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請僑務委員會與二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並赴資本會委員令指定期限者從期鎖定三委員沈伯陽馬文君及黃仁等三人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1962.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1987.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
請問在場委員對上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項邀請國家安全局局長國防部部長大陸委員會國家通訊傳播委員會交通部經濟部數位發展部海洋委員會海巡署報告針對海底電纜 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1988.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2004.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
系國家對外重要通訊手段為避免中共利用各種灰色地帶手段測試我國網路及電網韌性情勢發生如何建立有效備援系統以支援軍事作戰並支撐基礎建設防護韌性並備執行宣讀完畢好我們介紹在場的委員陳永康委員羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2019.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2042.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
沈博洋委員介紹與會的官員國安局局長蔡明彥國防部部長顧立雄顧部長12點後請假由常務次長楊基榮中將帶領副參謀總長執行官黃志偉上將 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2051.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2068.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
常務次長楊基榮參事石文榮政務辦公室主任陳道輝站規師師長黃文啟勤次市次長謝日生 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2081.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2110.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
座繼市次長陳文新後次市次長李鳳祥通次市次長鄧恩蓮知通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良陸委會副主委沈友忠 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2115.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2125.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
經濟處處長葉凱平國家通訊傳播委員會基礎設施處處長陳春木交通部產業發展及國際事務司司長陳進生行政司檢紀政宏政 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2145.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2169.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
行管局組長沈淑賢中華電信總經理林榮氏經濟部國營司司長胡文忠台灣電力公司專業總工程師石吉亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2174.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2196 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
供電處副處長王豐彬數位發展部政次 薛和民任性建設司司長劉信仁海洋委員會海巡署副署長謝慶清 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2202.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2208.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
通電資訊組副組長王志斌巡防組組長廖雲紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2215.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2237.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
本日會議邀請國安局、國防部及相關部會機關報告為避免中共威脅我海底電纜的安全如何建立有效備援系統以支援軍事作戰並強化基礎建設防護韌性並備質詢首先請國安局蔡局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2248.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2268.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好 謝謝主席我們在場各位委員先進 各位女士 各位先生 大家早非常感謝大院安排本局來進行有關於海嵐安全跟通訊韌性相關議題的專題報告本局僅以眾理國家安全情報工作立場提出說明跟意見如此第一部分跟各位委員報告的是有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2270.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2294.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
海嵐安全的一個重要性那目前因為網路寬頻世代的興起海嵐具有低成本還有高通量的一個特性那目前已經成為全球通訊主要的連接的管道那我們統計了一下目前全球的網際網路的資訊的流量大概有超過九成以上都是由海嵐來進行必要的一個傳輸那我們的國家因為是屬於海島型的一個國家所以我們目前也建置有14條的國際的海嵐跟10條的國內的海嵐 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2296.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2310.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那近年來因為這些海嵐有遭受到外力的迫害而導致的一些斷纜事件一再的發生所以再次的凸顯了強化海嵐的韌性建立備援的機制還有系統已經變成是影響我們國家安全非常重要的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2311.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2338.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第二部分是有關於我國海嵐可能遭到中共籍船隻損害的一個基本的樣態根據本局依照過去三年來我們周邊海嵐發生斷纜事件來做一些分析過去大概每一年都平均有七次到八次的斷纜事件我們在分析之後把相關的樣態總共整理出來有四種主要的樣態第二部分是涉及到中共可能在周邊的海域進行大量的抽砂而導致海嵐的漏洛遭致的損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2339.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2367.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那因為中共的抽砂船已經有非常多次在我們怪里島的周邊水域來進行抽運海砂的一個作業活動那導致了相關的一個海底的淺灘快速的流失那也造成了我們所埋設的海底電纜漏落的狀況增加海嵐遭受到損害的一個風險那在2022年的3月到4月之間我國的台馬三號海嵐在那段期間就接連的發生到因為中共抽砂船的作業而遭到損害的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2368.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2390.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那也對於當時馬祖整體的對外通訊造成非常嚴重的一個干擾那第二部分是有關於中共的漁船它的拖網捕撈的作業去扯斷了海嵐的一個情況那中共的漁船在我們台海周邊的水域利用流刺網或抵拖網在海底來進行非常長距離的拖曳來所謂的捕撈相關的一個漁獲 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2391.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2413.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那在這個作業的過程當中也很容易的來扯斷我們的海底電纜那這樣的一個事態是在2021年的8月我國的台金二號的海纜就疑似遭受到中共拖網漁船作業而造成損害那當時也導致了我們的馬祖南竿地區通訊全面的中斷那第三個樣態主要是中共的大型的貨輪它可能在下錨、脫鉤 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2415.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2441.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
而造成了我們的一個海嵐系統的一個受損那這樣的事態也發生在2023年的2月我國的台馬三號海嵐疑似遭到中共貨輪在下馬作業的過程當中而造成的損害那第四個狀況是權宜輪透過一些偽裝演示的活動在周邊進行一些可能的灰帶的侵擾而造成了海嵐的鉤損那這也是這一次在本年的一月間 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2441.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2466.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們在聯通到國際的海欄遭受到疑似懸掛柯麥隆旗幟還有搭載陸級船員的舜星39號貨輪鉤損的狀況比較屬於是這一類的一個樣態以上大概是把這種比較受到中共因為船隻作業而造成我們海欄損害的一個情況做一個簡單的分析接下來第三部分是有關於我們的應處建議我們在這邊也大概有列整了五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2466.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2483.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
具體的一個作為的建議那第一部分是我們要來加強海嵐周邊海域的重點的巡檢那事實上我們政府已經透由國家通訊暨網際安全中心來建立起我們24小時的通報的機制掌握海嵐各種通訊網絡實際運作的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2485.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2506.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那另外政府各單位也規劃來針對海嵐登陸的地點外海的水域來標註相關的警戒專區作為未來執法的重點以及加長監控的主要的海域那現場假如有違法的作業或是疑設斷纜的一個事件的話可以來啟動我們的機制及時進行必要的收證扣押偵辦並進行必要的鎖場 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2508.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2530.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那第二部分是來強化我們的多元益值通訊備援的能量那這部分我們會建議未來可能公司部門之間應該要來持續的興建更多的聯外的海欄那同時也要來建置更多的微波通訊系統還有我們的非同步軌道衛星等等的通訊裝備備援裝置透過這些多元多渠道的通訊裝置的建置來強化我國數位通訊的韌性 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2532.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2557.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第三是來文倍海欄設施防護的演練那我們的政府應該要來繼續將海欄列入我們年度巡檢還有防護演練的主要的標的來強化我們對於相關設施的安全管理還有防護的機制那這部分主要會透過我們行政院的國土安全政策匯報來進行必要的協調那在未來幾週也會召開這個匯報我們會把相關的意見反映到行政院的匯報 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2558.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2582.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那第四部分是推動國際的交流來提升合作聯防那本局這邊會持續的跟我們友好國家來交換相關的情報來掌收威脅的情訊那也來延續可能海欄遭到破壞各種可能的樣態跟手法那掌握相關的發展趨勢那也會跟國際友方來分享相關的防治跟應處的經驗達到我們國際海欄安全聯防的最大的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2583.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2610.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第五是有關於加強權宜輪燈檢管制的一個通報那對於未來這種申報不實的船舶那我們應該把它列為優先實施港口國管制PSC檢查的主要的對象那假如這一類的船舶有進入到我國的盡限制水域或是接近到我們的海南警戒專區的話那我們可以依照我們相關的法律由我們的海上執法單位海巡署來派船進行必要的燈檢跟查驗的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2611.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2630.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那最後一部分是有關於節雨那海底電纜是我們聯外通訊的主要的管道那強化海纜的防護非常的重要那這可能需要跨部會還有公司部門之間來協力推動落實我們的安全防護的作為那國安局這邊我們會持續的依照整體的安全情勢的變化來及時掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2631.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2644.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
境外勢力海上會帶威脅的一個情資並且持續的透過用國家安全的角度來支援我們政府強化關鍵設施防護的根本的一個韌性那以上的報告 敬請各位不吝指教 謝謝接著請國防部顧部長進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2662.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2669.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
各位委員先進因應近期中華電信國際海南與野柳東北方海域發生斷纜本部針對海底電纜 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2673.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2694.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
中斷國軍如何建立有效備援系統,維持本外離島間網路韌性,以支援軍事作戰,報告如何?一,國軍應用海底電纜現況,中華電信國內海底電纜具有台澎、台金及台馬三大海纜系統本部與中華電信簽訂區約租用海纜頻寬,作為本島對外離島 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2697.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2714.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
地區指管通聯使用,上述海覽軍建置備援的路由,形成環路的保護機制,並可相互接替運用,同時互視建置、微波及 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2715.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2741.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
衛星系統作為備援,並持續提升網路韌性,相關做法如後112年啟動台風金馬第四海嵐建設工程,預計115年完工,可提升海嵐網路韌性2.擴增外離島微波群寬容量與海嵐發生障礙時,可自動切換至衛星備援3.建構衛星網路作為第三備援使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2743.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2771.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
再就海嵐中斷對本國軍外離島通信影響及備援作法國軍為確保本外離島直管通聯通知系統均採護士備制多重備援之原則建制現行時除租用中華電信海嵐外國軍已建立專用微波及衛星系統當海嵐中斷時將以無線傳輸模式迅速接替重要直管電路 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2773.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2783.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
為能有效運用微波及衛星系統傳輸能量本部已依軍事作戰需求,律定外離島地區重壓電路優先等級及階梯順序 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2785.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2803.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
另立定標準作業程序定期實施演練以強化人員應變能力備援做法說明如何本島對外離島建置海底電纜中斷時中華電信將訓務調整至其他海纜並以中華電信建置之微波及微星系統互視備援接替 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2804.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2816.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
二、國軍以建制微波及衛星系統維持本外離島監視通信可備援接替重要戰型指管通知系統以確保通訊不中斷三、各外離島 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2817.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2835.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
防衛部已完成外離島高優先電路作業程序並定期協同防區的中華電信十字海嵐中段備援階梯演練以強化標準作業程序及人員應變能力,備有效支援通知指管及請傳任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2839.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2847.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
為應變海底電腦全速中斷或不明原因毀損的情況除以多條海浪系統相互備援外 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2849.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2870.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
更著重於備援機制的建立及安全防護的提升後續將與海巡署共同建置可疑船舶資料庫並定期更新背力掌握試煉船隻動態並針對靈基性的潛在風險應用雙方的通聯機制爭取預警及應處的成效以上報告請請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2877.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2878.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
其他部會機關報告請參閱書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2900.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2923.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會的委員5分鐘10點半發言登記截止現已有臨時提案預計10點半左右是詢答情形進行處理因稍晚還有一些總預算協商的事宜所以我們就截止收案不再收案現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2934.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2951.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
謝謝主席 有請海巡署 謝副署長請海巡署委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2953.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2957.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
副署長早安副署長我想請教一下 叫順興39號其實它是從2024年12月5號到2025年1月3號的期間已經是來來回回長達將近一個月的時間持續在北海岸的水域繞行而且它的軌跡是非常可疑的 是重疊的八字形我想請問一下海巡署 在這一個月你們有發現說順興39號嗎 有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2978.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2992.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
有發現說這很奇怪的船隻怎麼會在這裡來來回回的在行走海巡署平常是依照我們的雷達系統原則上偵測近岸12海里內那這個案子發生之後我們從順興輪39號 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2995.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3014.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
他的AS航機後續我們來事後來偵測的話的確如委員所講的一個月來他航行軌跡是異常的是你們當時有發現嗎這隻船是一直將近一個月的時間都在我們的北海岸這樣子繞行難道海巡都沒有發現嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3016.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3033.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
包括最近在一流外海的蒙古籍保順輪也包括在仿山南部的那我們是如果有進到近縣市水域我們有運用聯合情監偵手段我們都會掌握不明目標那原則上我們都會把它驅離但這一些權益輪 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3034.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3063.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
都長期滯留在我們的近縣治水應該講是說24海浬臨接區外24海浬內來回航行包括不只這一艘包括我剛才講的目前我們在監控的蒙古籍保順人也是如此我們把驅離到24海浬他往澎嘉嶼東北方48海浬那遠離了那今天清晨又回到24海浬所以我們都持續掌控所以孫先生9號你們之前有驅離過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3064.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3087.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們是經貨報案我們才第一時間到現場是時候發生就是電纜就是斷裂了之後你們才過去是不是在一個月來你們其實在1月3號所以我本期是想問就是說這期間你們到底有沒有發現順興39號在這裡很異常的這個這個行型因為我有看到金融時報金融時報它所提供的這個圖你看它這個行型的這個軌跡是非常的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3089.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3108.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
有問題很可疑因為一般上長行行行的話一般上都是直線嘛可是他是來來回回呈現八字形而且他的軌跡不但是跟我們電纜的這個位置所在是重疊的嚴重的重疊而且是呈現這個垂直交叉那也有軍事專家說其實他就是想要把我們的電纜給勾斷海巡您這邊的說法呢你們這邊認為呢按照這個金融時報所提出來的這個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3119.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3146.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
你們會覺得這個航行的這個路線是正常的嗎這是事後掌握的嘛對不對是航機上很可疑當然有嫌疑我們不排除任何可能所以我們全能掌握不過跟我們報告我們從事後資料來研判的話這艘寶順那個順興39號它事實上也進基隆港好幾次那麼現在很多常態就是在外海停留等候船公司老闆下令他們如果貨到期之後才進港 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3147.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3173.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個也有所以目前當然那我想請教一下順心39號你們有掌握到它是怎麼樣的一個貨船它是真正的有在有一些業務嗎還是說就像我之前有看過一個報導說其實像俄羅斯它有所謂的影子艦隊他們說這些都是屬於一些沒有任何業務可是它就是有政治它的可能就是政治目的的一些船隻那到底我們有掌握到順心39號它是真正的是有一些業務嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3174.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3193.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
真的是來這邊要卸貨嗎這個部分有掌握到因為我知道說你們之前雖然說想要登船可是因為海上不佳的關係沒有上去嘛那時候因為他就繼續往這個韓國釜山去了到底後續到了韓國釜山之後你們有掌握到這個船隻他到底後續到底是怎麼樣因為我看到之後就沒有看到任何的報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3196.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3211.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
從他之前進港的資料來查詢事實上他進金龍港有在裝卸大量的冷凍食品大量的冷凍貨物所以這一艘輪是雜貨輪有到韓國釜山這個案子我們第一時間我們在中午接到報案的時候我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3212.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3235.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
立即要求他到基隆外海配合 他也配合那剛剛陳主委員講的 那天海象不好我們完成收證之後 因為他不是現行犯距離案發有9個小時 所以我們沒有立即查控後續有透過管道請韓國協助但是目前了解的話 我們目前掌控的話他離開之後把AS關掉 目前我們還在查詢中 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3237.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3250.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
所以現在還在查詢當中所以他是不是真的要來勾斷我們的海底電纜到目前還沒有一個很確實的說法我們不排除有這個可能是那我們所看到就是說很多人都說切斷電纜其實是被視為熱戰的這個前哨那像過去這幾年我們這兩年來我們看到像去年的台碼二號台碼三號 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3259.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3262.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
也都是被中國的漁船跟貨輪給勾斷了那今年初馬上就發現又發生了這一件事件所以那我們可以看到說像過去一年當中我們看到勾斷電纜的幾乎都是中國的這個貨輪不然就是俄羅斯的所以它這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3274.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3294.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
大家都會認為說這是蓄意這是蓄意那當然也許後續還會發生類似的狀態所以我們在想說我們要如何去做防範因為畢竟這個海巡的這個業務畢竟還是你們是背了很大的這個責任那我們要如何防止類似的事情再次發生就像這個順興39號我們海巡是事件是完全 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3298.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3301.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
我們這邊要報告海巡署的立場海底電纜維護任務我們認為應該回歸墓地事業主管機關跟城商自行辦理為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3319.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3340.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那海巡署緊協助突發狀況查證還有簡單說明因為我待會要請蘇發布稍後以事實上怎麼攔查、收證跟代案偵辦等等那另外如果經中華電信初步研判它疑似外力破壞的話我們海巡署接受通報號會立即依照雷達回放還有中華電信通報經緯度我們立即調派電力情況查處必要時我們會協調在行軍艦測驗資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3342.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3370.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那海上部下的時候我們會請在行軍艦進行蒐證協助那這部分特別要跟委員報告我們那個跟國安部跟跨部會都有協調過所以我是想說這個應該是要跨部會那這個部分的話我希望各位要加強這部分這是屬於國安問題好那這個部分的話如果可以的話事後給我一份一個簡短的這個說明跟報告書面報告那我再來我要請書發部上來請書發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3374.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3394.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
政次嘛 缺政次嘛委員好是 書發部有提到說如果說這電纜如果說要防範說以後會被截斷的還需求先回去喔那你們這邊有提到說未來可能還會想要建立一個多元一直通訊系統我在你們報告裡面有看到這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3395.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3402.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那可能要建立一些微波備援機制或是衛星備援機制等等我想請問一下你們這方面的業務費已經被砍到只剩下一塊錢你想講的這些做得到嗎?速發部被剪裂了12.7億剩下一塊錢你們這個做得到嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3414.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3433.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
你現在提出來的這些 我看你的預算裡面有提到 重點是這目標裡面有提到可是你們現在速發不備 在野黨砍了12.7億那你們所提的這些 萬一說我們的電纜被切斷了那我們這邊所要做的一些備援機制呢 也沒錢可以做了 那怎麼辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3435.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3451.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
整個台灣就成孤島了嗎?我們對外的聯繫全部都切斷了嗎?請速發布說明一下會造成怎麼樣的後果報告委員,那不只是海嵐,這個預算如果被刪除的話包含了通訊任性跟治安協防,這些通通都會受到大幅的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3453.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3477.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
因為現在山下海預算連辦公室的維運的水電費都沒有所以這個是會造成我們所有的業務的重大影響當然有一些預算是用計畫在執行但是如果相關的人員沒有地方可以辦公那當然所有的計畫都會受到影響所以國人應該看得到了吧中國要切斷我們的電纜 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3478.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3498.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
然後再來呢我們的在野黨呢要把這些備援機制的這些經費全部都砍掉那這不是里應外合什麼叫做里應外合所以我想速發部這邊所以這些都沒辦法做了是不是都沒有辦法做了好這個請國人看清楚好以上謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3513.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3519.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
謝謝主席我請肅發部還有中華電信請肅發部和中華電信委員好各位好 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3526.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3553.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
這個剛才提出報告的有關的國安局局長跟國防部長他所論述的重點本席在這邊表達認同但是認同並不代表我們了解今天我們的報告一共有八份報告各個單位都有都是合格言而治講他所認為的重點請問在場的哪一位同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3554.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3582.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
能够把这八份汇集成一张图表显示海揽图在哪里前面刚才罗委员讲的是示意图那么很多该做的事情过去没做经过这件事情发生了以后我们如何精进今天谈的是解套方案是应变方案是备原方案第一个我请教就是14条海揽的细部图请问速发部您知道吗细部图精准位置图我们手上有 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3585.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3613.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我們非常清楚因為在蘇發部的10樓就有這個NCCSC那所有的海欄的狀況都有即時的資訊那這個細部圖也都在即時的資訊裡面那這14條海欄修復簽約是由中華電信簽的不一定那有多少約 幾個合約14條海欄簽約修復合約有幾個修復合約是由各不同的擁有者去處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3613.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3632.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那各擁有者的合約你有嗎因為有很多是國際海欖我們不見得會有修復的合約我們會有沒有聯外的合約當然有修復合約啊國際海欖你要看啊你們的合約修完了以後甚至拿到國立大學請有關海研的單位再幫你們再review你知道嗎委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3637.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3657.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那個海嵐如果真的中斷的話也是由電視也來負責維修那他們會聯絡海嵐的船來做維修他聯絡就是要合約啊合約裡面要講什麼時候船會來啊我們在治安維護防護就是在安全防護計畫中有有陳述各電衣業者他們後續的維修的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3658.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3680.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
給各位質詢講到一個最重要的關鍵就是這一個會期一年來我一直強調我們的政府包括從國防部到國安會到各部會你要有一個共同圖像共同圖像是一個資料庫但是你要建立一個平台就瞬間的時間產生的狀況大家看到的資訊是相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3681.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3690.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
剛才裡面提到了你有用低軌衛星做這個備援那OneWeb衛星總共多少顆啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3692.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3713.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
關於衛星的數目還是接收器的數目衛星多少顆啊衛星大概有650顆因為它數字是浮動的對650顆衛星可是是12個軌道那麼每一個軌道有多少顆通過台灣有24小時有多少顆每一次通過的時間有多少然後地面有多少接收站頻寬有多少773個 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3715.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3725.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
政府拿掉700个只有73个给民间那做海揽的备源理想很好但是是不够用因为我们现在还在跟其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3726.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3748.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
還在談判嘛所以這個裡面的限制因素就是說你的傳播速度這個OneWeb的傳根本影像根本無法分配所以你只是維持手機通訊那中華電信如果微波的中斷現在外島是靠中華電信微波來支持如果海纜中斷那麼這個海纜中斷呢不管是惡意無益或者是意外事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3748.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3756.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
你可以要布海欄尤其是在近岸布海欄你可以要求它埋一公尺决深而不是在深海的海欄里面 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3758.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3785.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
報告委員講的都是都是行家的都是行家那事實上包含的我們我們都有要求在大陸棚那中華電信在這邊也應該很清楚就是所有在大陸棚的海嵐都是深埋在水底下至少海平面下至少10公尺5公尺以下到20公尺的區間那我曾經接受過許多次的國際媒體的採訪事實上要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3785.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3811.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
海嵐割斷需要有三個意外第一個意外就是因為所有的海嵐圖是公開的公開的目的就是為了要防止商船或漁船在海嵐的地方下茅中華電線也有系統就是當你的ACS你的傳輸太慢然後你接近海嵐的時候我們都會示警這些公開的資訊是為了防止意外的產生但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3812.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3827.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以第一個意外就是如果你要割斷海卵你必須在海卵的地方附近下錨下錨以後第二個意外呢你必須開動船隻的引擎因為正常的情況下船隻下錨以後不會開動引擎那你開動引擎 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3828.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3845.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那你發現你開動引擎又下錨你又繼續前行這才有可能會把海欖割斷所以你必須要有三個意外那而且海欖所有的海欖公司在近海處在大陸棚他都會做深埋這都是為了保護海欖的安全那所以我們現在所面對的問題並不是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3848.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3865.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
因為你需要這三個意外這顯然是一個這三個意外實在是太困難了所以這顯然不是一個正常的情況我剛剛提到現在我們在不管是各部會做這種意外事件的當值的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3866.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3889.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
你要有一個共同平台共同圖像然後大家都可以用GIS都可以用AIS所以至於這個船根據IMO的規則每條船有七個代碼所以你點進去知道船東船籍掛國旗還是租賃裝貨在哪卸貨發行位置全部都有所以你發現一個船持續在那邊做不正當的行為的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3890.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3904.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
已經開始有預印了但是一般的圖來講你並不知道你只是看到海面你沒有看到海參所以說像剛剛您講的不管是衛星 微波 海纜它通訊傳播速度完全不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3906.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3919.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
99.5靠海南其他只是備援幫不了大忙那斷了以後馬上要根據合約外商的傳過來要多久這個時間要國安會要能掌握國防部要能掌握我們再看下一張圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3921.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3939.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個剛才前面的羅委員就顯示了可是這上面沒有水深啊我給各位我經過校證把水深套上去你就發現他這個船為什麼要走呢因為他的毛可能只放了150公尺然後他如果要顯示他是一個故障船他要掛旗 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3941.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3961.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
你不管是挂Yankee、Romeo、Delta都代表不同的现况这个是执法可以依据的然后你用无人机或监控系统你看到他的毛在那边这个船呢两节速度在那边乱移动我就上去领检那规定可不可以可以立法规定啊日本已经规定了新加坡韩国也规定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3963.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3983.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以基礎設施的維護是全國的關鍵絕對不是速發部一個人的掌握但是你的數位的情資有沒有及時分送這個圖像有沒有給國安局跟國防部或者是其他的執法單位我們要有一個通訊平台電子圖台現在海蘭過去跟國際的資料顯示38%是捕魚的魚網的剛才拖的25% |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3990.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4017.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
是下錨的這下錨的有意外事件有刻意破壞另外還包括地震包括東西所以我剛剛跟你講只要看到船有可疑行動你監控它你看它掛的旗Yankee本艦正在溜錨中Romeo本艦處於靜止狀態但是它如果掛Romeo而在慢慢移動它在做行為那甚至Delta這個旗子海巡署是看得見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4018.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4034.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
那再去看它毛孔毛鏈是不是垂直的就表示你做的動作跟你的掛的旗幟是違反海上行為法的這些東西都可以做預備像日本已經監控了海底電纜左右1000公尺禁止採挖 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4035.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4059.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
韓國也訂出規定了新加坡也訂出規定了我認為我們的國安團隊要整合這個要求而不是各部會問就像這樣子各位你們都講得很清楚你都有你的角色很重要但是你缺什麼你缺一個共同圖台你沒有一個平台所以大家講的都很重要我這邊都表達肯定如何交換殉職像這個圖你看我們這個右邊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4063.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4082.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
淡水每一個圖是哪一個海欄我們都可以標上去可是這個底圖就是剛才羅委員講的圖這叫示意圖這個圖是不準的這個圖這是地震師的圖這個圖出來了可是這個圖又沒有海水深度的顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4083.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4102.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
它要脫斷都在100公尺以內它怎麼會跑到水深300公尺它下毛 它毛鏈多長不同的船的頓位不同的毛鏈長位下毛通常是一倍一半到兩倍的水深這都是海上的專業知識可是不用情報分享沒有一個完整的圖像 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4103.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4129.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
你怎么判断所以之前这个图里面画那个直线的全部是示意图所以罗委员刚刚讲的图是示意图跟媒体的公布资料那内政部已经把这个图出来了如果交通部或者是中华电信拿到更细的图我们要调效然后再去配合海水的深度你刚刚讲的近线制水域对本岛来讲哪有近线制水域啊就是临海基线24里那 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4131.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4145.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
另外一个我们不谈无害通过因为你完全有权利掌握我是在公海上即便是在通过我的这个所谓的海揽区你在那边做可疑行为我派执法船拦截你 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4146.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4173.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
因為AIS已經告訴你的船籍 船東 租賃公司所掛的國旗 裝貨 卸貨點 發起點你這個行為可疑 我當然可以執法了我可以 我叫hard pursuit我從領海一路追到外面 我要領檢那這些東西都是跟國際法 海洋法有關的所以各部會在今天如果還是用你的專業指講你的連一張圖都不拿出來你今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4174.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4194.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們今天這個圖是內政部的圖這個圖跟剛才所看到的所有的示意圖完全不一樣可是內政部這張圖裡面又沒有領海基線也沒有24里那更沒有海底深度所以透過學研單位可以幫各位的需求做整合這個科技部實際上對這個做 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4197.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4213.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
這個很小的一個project我個人已經建立的資料庫可以support大家可是我到今天看八份報告裡面居然沒有一張圖沒有一張表這個是值得我們共同努力本席在這邊提出一個非常強烈的建議然後再談到跨部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4214.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4240.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
涉及到國家安全社會韌性請提出圖表來圖是圖表示表要精確的校正不要示意圖我在這邊向各位請益我提供各位的是專業意見我不用示意圖我不用報紙的截圖請用一個共同平台我再次呼籲跨部會的協商不能各說各話都講的對無法收斂以上謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝陳永康委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4244.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4265.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
請回接下來我們請沈伯陽委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請這個海巡署副署長謝謝請副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4276.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4290.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
副部長好 最近辛苦了最近這種海底電纜的事件可以說是越來越多那我們可以看到就是說這一個目前來講我們海底電纜受損的案件數是一直有提高而且不是只有在台灣這個樣子國際也是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4292.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4309.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那我知道這一個因為這一次海巡到現場的時候呢他已經不是現行犯了所以呢這個是已經隔了幾個小時嘛對不對所以沒有什麼辦法但是我們還是可以去想一下有沒有什麼以後我們可以譬如說更早抵達現場又或者說有更好的設備跟人員所以我後面大概會問這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4311 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4332.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
但第一個我想要知道的就是說因為我們可以看到大概2024年2024年就是應該是去年去年年底的時候他就有這個德國到芬蘭瑞典到立陶宛還有愛沙尼亞到芬蘭這邊的電纜被破壞然後呢再來就是發生了最近這個2025年1月那在2023年的時候呢其實也是在年底 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4333.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4359.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
然後以及在年初的時候一樣在歐洲然後呢也一樣在台灣所以呢從2023一直到2025看得出來好像有一定的節奏性而且因為它都是中國嘛它全部都是中國做的所以呢關於這件事情呢很有可能我們以後都會在這一些時間點會遇到這一個相關的這一個攻擊那所以這個話如果是這個樣子的話有可能是每一次在這一個時間我們都特別要做好準備這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4360.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4385.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
但第二個我想要知道的就是因為現在每一個國家應對的方式都不太一樣因為每個國家都會遇到那我看到呢這個當然有一些國家他是直接出動海軍像英國有那一個這個多功能的這個海洋監視船那澳洲現在是做一個說他們做一個電纜連線跟這一個所謂的彈性中心那日本稍微被動一點日本就是反正這是民間的業者負責然後到時候我們請船來修復我們有時候可能也會 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4386.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4413.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
請這個日本的修復船來幫忙嘛 對不對所以日本目前是這個樣子那北約目前有兩艘船隻在執行這個監控的任務那因為很多呢這邊都有這個聯合部隊像瑞典跟愛沙尼亞是直接派軍艦那我知道我們的海巡比較特別因為畢竟有點像是第二海軍那目前我想問一下就是在這件事情上面我們是要成立一個特別的中心嗎還是說我們的硬體要特別的加長還是要跟國防部有什麼合作我們先從這個大架構想問一下這個副署長的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4414.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4426.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
非常感謝委員簡單跟委員報告我們案發之後馬上召開跨部會會議其中我們跟國安部也達成共識原則上就是如果中華電信出判 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4427.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4448.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
這個海底電纜斷纜事件是因為外力或疑似外力破壞的話我們海巡署就會通報我們會回放雷達航機根據中華電信的通報我們立刻派遣艦艇前往要攔查、收證跟扣案與送偵辦那如果說海象不佳 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4449.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4471.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
我們會請海軍載航軍艦先測印那先資源協處那如果說我們要待案的時候遇到後輪不願意配合的話我們會動用必要手段那必要的時候會先請海軍載航測印這是第一步第二點我們現在在推動我們海軍籌建艦艇籌建計畫也有巡護船籌建計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4473.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4487.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
未來會再造大型艦船28艘那巡防艇100噸以上119艘這部分我們會持續增強能力另外在各部會我們開各部會議包括中華電信目前都有已經有告醒系統各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4488.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4512.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
他是在海嵐左右一公里地方看到有船長超過20米航速低於五節以下他就會花預警系統就AIS預警系統給這個船舶請他立即離開另外我們海巡跟海軍載航艦艇會加強巡邏如果發現有疑似滯留下茅又或是停留等等排回的可疑船舶我們會立即要求他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4513.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4537.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
起毛離開 而且我們會全程收政那這部分包括我們請交通部 航港局加強全業輪的管理給我們黑名單建立 跟公安部建立共同黑名單民社另外呢 加強要研修傳播法對於沒有正確開啟AIS的傳播要克與罰則等等 我們就要全力在努力中謝謝副組長 那我剛剛聽到幾個 大概三個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4538.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4558.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
第一個就是跨部會的會議那我也是覺得不一定要用中興因為跨部會的會議其實有它的彈性這是第一個第二個就是將來可能會有更多的艦艇可以來做巡邏這是第二個所以像英國也有類似這種現在多功能的海洋監視船但我剛剛聽到第三個這個部分我覺得比較特別一點就是它是中華電信它可能有這個回報 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4559.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4581.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
他可能看到這個AIS怎麼關掉了這個航機可疑了那這邊呢我覺得比較特別的一點是因為我這次有看以色列這邊他們Winward有做一個相關的報告那因為他們自己有一個專利有一個AI的系統那我們先不管他AI系統有什麼操作我看他報告裡面有提到幾點比如說他看到有四艘可疑的船都同屬在同一個商業的公司裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4583.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4599.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這裡面就包含這次的順性那他就發現呢因為這個他們的每一個識別嘛MSI啦他在發AIS的時候就這個一旦有人另外一個一定沒有就是說他發現有四艘有這樣的一個規律這個關了這個就開而且是沒有間斷的這個關了另外一個又再開 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4600.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4624.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
所以這個又是另外一種軌跡嘛但是問題是這種應該說這種pattern要怎麼去監測有可能必須要用到AI的技術那這是第一個然後第二個就是它的航跡就是說它的移動的一個方式剛剛這個我們的陳永康委員也有提到就它移動的方式它用什麼棋子等等之類的那當然再來就是這個權益船嘛但是因為權益船它本來就有可疑之處是因為它本來就是明明就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4625.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4639.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
某一個國的船隻他注意去別的國家註冊然後又掛一個第三國的旗幟這個當然也是一個所以就是說因為我有看到在後面的報告裡面這邊有提到這個專利我就跳過就是說它有這一個所謂的資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4640.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4669.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
應該在這邊 就是海巡組的這一個資料庫這個資料庫我相信現在我們能夠蒐集的這個資料第一個 有可能有不足的地方第二個就是因為要蒐集這些資料全世界有各式各樣的系統其實中國的系統現在在搜尋這些資料是搜的很多的所以我甚至有遇到一些我們不要講是公家人員有一些是私人的他們不得不去使用中國的系統結果中國的系統現在搜集這些資料搜集得很完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4670.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4691.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那這個是我們可能必須要去補足的地方除了我們的資料收集的可能要比對方更為完備之外第二個就是我剛剛講的以色列的這個Wing War他們在做的那一個方式有哪些是我們可以參考的所以這個當然是我剛剛聽到幾個重點那我再往下問幾個小地方這邊可能就要請到書法部書法部今天書法部來的是次長嗎謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4699.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4721.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
剛剛其實盧委員已經有問到我們要怎麼去加強這個韌性的問題那我知道大概在幾年以前這一個公司協力就已經有發生過我記得是中華電信可能還有跟Meta等等之類的有在建一條海底電纜嘛那時候有說在2024年這個備援就要開始啟用但我現在看資料好像還沒有開始對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4722.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4736.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
委員是說公司協力來保護電纜對就是說我們的備援電纜就我們現在不是10條對內14條對外那我們現在除了這些以外我們還要再建其他的海底電纜那其他的這個海底電纜現在這個興建的這個速度 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4738.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4754.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
報告委員因為建海底電纜都需要非常長的時間那個船起也都需要排成那我們的確是有計劃是在補助新建海底電纜也有計劃在補助新建新的登陸站但是這些都在審查中所以細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4755.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4781.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那當然國內的大部分是由中華電信來處理那我們也預計台馬會有新的一條電纜那也是目前正在進行中好對因為我現在看到有一個是這個ACURUS那我忘記他名稱了就是說他是在2024啦那到時候有打電話先去中華電信問了一下他說有可能要等到2026啦就是說這個時間本來就會拉的比較長但畢竟如果要等到2026對台灣來講也是畢竟有它一定的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4782.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4800.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那我上次也有去太空中心特別去關心的就是我們的低軌衛星如果除了1Web以外現在低軌衛星要建設的這個速度有可能也沒有辦法那麼快我知道這個並不是束縛不要主責的但是畢竟這整體的速度的盤點我們整體的韌性到底要怎麼建立可能還是要有一個主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4801.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4817.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那我覺得速發部畢竟對於這個數位韌性的一個建立還有資安的防護這個本來就是速發部的重點嘛所以希望能夠速發部能夠去多多關心就是說我們在質詢的時候當然各部會的時候我們會去追但速發部能夠多多關心我們這個韌性建立的這個速度那不然的話我很怕趕不上台灣的危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4818.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4842.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
謝謝委員指教那個數位韌性跟資安的保護本來就是速發部的職責所以這個部分我們一定會負起責任那數位韌性的部分其實包含了剛剛講的剛剛海巡署講的就是中華電信的系統它也跟我們的系統有界界那這幾天在海嵐中段的及時處理上我們內部群組 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4843.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4858.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
都有一些工作小組及時的在處理這些事情那也在前幾天我們已經把我們手上相關的市政已經含送基隆地檢署因為他已經立案那所以我們已經把我們技術端的市政也交給司法單位一起協處 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4860.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4886.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這個事後的我覺得沒有問題啦但就是事前的就像我剛剛講的我們到現場的時候他已經結束了他已經沒有辦法用線型翻雖然有可能可以用準線型翻但總之他時間隔的已經有點長但我也就不覺得說我們一定要讓海巡就是有速度要多快而是如果我們剛剛講在軟體的前置作業能夠比較完善的話那他得到通知或者他得到預警甚至他還沒開始割的時候你就已經發現有異狀了那時候能夠趕到現場就跟現在事後趕到現場這是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4888.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4895.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那我們之後針對這樣的一個執法的一個方式SOP我們就事後再來討論那因為時間差不多了沒有問題謝謝謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員我們接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢有請國安局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4919.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4919.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
請國安局局長好 謝謝主席 黃委員早好早 這個有關於這個電纜級節點的安全的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4933.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4948.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
為了維護國家單位是否能夠取得相關資訊及保護的海欄這個部分我想你都知道我們的海欄的國際海欄包含我們國內的海欄大概設置有14個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4951.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4971.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
在我們國內,就是在淡水、巴黎、投誠、仿山、金門。我想請教一下,我們現在的海南遭損壞之後,回頭去查可疑的船隻,國安局的情緒蒐集有沒有辦法事先發現外國或中共破壞的海南的意圖。 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4974.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4989.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
對,這部分跟委員做個說明,事實上國安局這邊跟海巡署這邊,我們本來就建立起即時通報的機制,那特別是針對中共級的船舶,那中共級的船舶有包括到他們的海洋調查船、科研船、貨船、滾裝貨輪或是相關的這種其他的公務船舶。 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4993.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5007.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那只要進階到我們的水域我們都會即時的進行通報因為這是國家法律規定依照兩岸人民關係條例我們是不允許中共船舶進階到我們的境線制水域所以這個機制已經有了那委員可能會比較關注的是在於說像第三國籍的權宜輪 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5008.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5031.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那因為第三國籍的權力輪在過去的管制機制裡面確實在受到關注的程度沒有那麼高那在這個案例之後我們會針對這個部分來建立起中國第三國籍船舶輪相關的船籍資料以及他們過去活動的軌跡樣態來跟海巡署做更進一步的情質分享不管是國安局是否能夠釋前獲知外國或中共破壞的海南的意圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5032.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5050.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那國防部也要如何保護海岸不受破壞國安局更要先前的都知道這個狀況那今年的元月十三十四因為我是住東海岸在台東這一帶那我們在成功鎮 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5052.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5069.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那個新港新港的外海就有將近百艘所以海裡的話將近20海裡內而已都一直在那個地方後來很多的百姓一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5070.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5090.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
不是我們國內的船隻 也不是遺傳確實一看是好幾百條的遺傳裡面就在那個地方 有來有去這就是中共在對我們的國內進行了什麼樣的一個狀況或者是意圖就是要破壞我們的海南 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5092.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5119.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
對 一般來講委員舉的時間點我們可以來再做進一步的查證那假如有大批的中共的漁船在周邊水域活動的話一定會預警的那即使他關閉AIS我們還是有其他的收集的情資的能力來掌握他們的位置因為我們百姓在十三、十四清晨就看到了後來他有截圖給我那今天又是來不及了 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5120.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5137.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
剛剛才傳到給我了我就問他在哪個地點就是在我們成功外海那邊成功鎮的新港有一個漁港的外海整個都在那個地方十三、十四凌晨還沒天亮之前的時候就已經有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5137.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5156.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以這個就是你們的情緒在外海裡面本來就是應該要注意到對 我們會要注意的注意到為什麼我們的海南會被破壞而且破壞的程度如果按照我們2019到2023我國海南發生的外力破壞或受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5157.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5174.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
總共有36件每年每條海瀾平均0.5的損害那如果按照全球450條的海瀾一年發生大約100件海瀾損害的事件換算全球平均一條海瀾每年發生才0.2而我們國內發生從2019到 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5181.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5203.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
二三年平均來講的話每年每條海欄就超出了0.5而且是比全球還要高所以原因在哪裡所以我們在防疫防範或者是在勤制的部分是不是我們要更加嚴謹而且你們要發揮到你們的更大的效能啊局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5204.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5210.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
對這部分事實上委員的數據大致的趨勢是沒有錯的也就是國內的海嵐在過去這幾年確實遭到搗損的狀況有比較嚴重那大概每年有七次到八次遭到的損害那我們也把我們的國際海嵐跟國內海嵐遭到損害的相關的可能的查證的 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5223.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5246.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
情資來做研判的話大多數都是受到中共國籍的海欄來造成破壞小部分是受到部分原因而造成破壞那這部分的整體的趨勢我們會特別來注意一下剛剛有跟我們提到的中共籍的船舶以及可能中共的船舶掛到第三國權宜輪的這種名義到周邊海運活動的狀況這部分是我們接下來主要查處跟收集情資的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5247.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5268.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好,你們肯定就是大部分都是中共進行破壞,有沒有其他的外力國際的破壞?有沒有?少數,非常少數,那大部分是外力或不明原因的這部分比例比較低。那海瀾戰的破壞更容易,但是我現在請教一下我國的5座國際海瀾戰的安全木城是由誰負責? |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5269.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5291.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
國際海岸部分主要在我們的那個國土安全的機制裡面那行政院這邊都列為關鍵基礎設施那由行政院在政策指導部分有行政院的國土安全政策匯報邀集各部會來進行政策的討論那在執行面有國土安全辦他會來規劃相關的防護演練的措施邀集各單位來加強相關的防護演練那你來說明一下你說哪個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5296.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5316.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
這行政院的單位,但今天應該不在現場國防部也有涉及到相關的關鍵設施的防護那國防部專責單位?沒有齁?喔好好,請你回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5321.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5344.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
委員好,我是國防部的座機室的次長有關於關鍵基礎設施的防護我們國防部是依照國土辦所提供的這些各部會所提立的等於是有國土辦再來跟你們做橫向聯繫是作為你們也要相關的一些執行對不對是,我們評估了之後我們就會有相關的兵力編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5346.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5362.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
然後納入如果在平時的話他會以區域聯防的這個機制來做一個相互的聯繫跟兵力的應援好你回座那我想請教一下我們國防部長有關於國金的能力現在每礦業下 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5364.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5368.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我們從過去2020年的時候我們400人有401人暴增401人不願意持續的在當兵在最近 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5384.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5394.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們的媒體報導裡面就有說國慶臨宴賠錢也要提前退伍的人數增加為1565個人比去年的2020年的401人的暴增將近4倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5402.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5431.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
四倍所以我們要去思考今天不是少子化的問題今天是既然他們已經進入到這個軍人的職業的職場裡面已經到這個裡面了怎麼會變成變成他們又不願意再繼續的繼續的當兵又寧可賠錢原因是什麼不是因為不是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5433.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5452.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
薪資的問題也不是因為少子化的問題是國軍裡面的管理還是對我們國軍的訓練包含整個的一個管理制度是不是已經失去了信心了部長你來回答這個問題好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5454.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5468.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
跟委員報告就這個您講的這個趨勢他人數是有逐漸增加是沒有錯不過112年當然就已經到1544那113年到1565那我想這個這樣子的一個趨勢他 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5475.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5493.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們根據這個提前退伍的人員來調查的話還是說薪資待遇較低,佔了63.9%為最高所以我們也在研擬提高人員薪資待遇這個部分已經要再跟行政院來做一個協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5494.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5523.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
那另外就是說為了這個穩固部隊的基層能力我們也朝這個提高流營意願的方向來努力我們會持續來推動這個有關你講的這種管理方式的一個精進這一個部分確實是我們應該要注意的一個重要的層面這樣子那包括採取一個應該要有我一直提倡的一個檢法的思維,人性化的管理這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5524.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5543.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
今天會有這樣的一個顯示的數據的人數不斷的增加而且還不斷的會有很多的退伍潮原因在哪裡今天他們當了進入到軍人的職場應該就是拋熱血而且他們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5550.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5572.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
服從命令要在他的磁場裡面是他們的天子當然當兵就是他們榮耀可是因為我們的金公教人員的這一些退休鳳後面不斷地被砍 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5573.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5586.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
今天他們會進入到這個磁場裡面因為國金一定有一個相對的保障他們的薪資另外他們的退休退伍之後有退休奉 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5587.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5615.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這就是他們要進入到這個磁場裡面的最佳的條件可是為什麼到最後要被砍原因就是我沒有保障了嘛我在軍中裡面就算是我奉獻後面我老了我退休了沒有用後面的保障當然他們不願意再繼續待在這個軍中裡面所以這個就是部長你們要思考的地方今天我們要招招這些軍人能夠在 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5616.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5636.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
提升我們的國力國備當然我們要給他更好的薪資保障跟他的退休保障這才是軍人他願意在我們在國防裡面願意奉獻但是我們有沒有給他保障所以部長你們要思考這個問題以上 謝謝好 謝謝魏恩謝謝黃仁委員部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5647.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5649.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
好 謝謝主席 主席先有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 林委員早 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5672.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5686.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
局長好我想今天大家討論的題目其實都是所定的這個主題我想媒體也非常的關切在您的報告特別提到的是現在這個所謂權宜輪危眼活動置身勾損 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5688.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5709.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
被認為是境外勢力對我灰色威脅的一個新的樣態了嗎那麼原因是因為就是因為這個所謂的中國的權宜輪順興39號這樣的一個案例又或者是說除了這個案例被媒體關注之外其實還有其他的案例或情資國安局的掌握是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5710.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5736.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
對 我想中國的權宜輪它對我們的這種海域安全造成的風險確實是不斷地在升高當中那除了這次案例我們所看到的就是中國的第三國籍權宜輪那它進階到我們的周邊水域甚至是在海嵐鋪設的範圍水域來進行活動那事後又傳出了海嵐遭到鉤損的一個狀況那所以我們可以高度地來懷疑那可能這一艘船舶它必須要針對這一次海嵐的損毀狀況要擔負起一定程度的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5739.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5754.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那當然這個案子已經在基隆地檢署的偵辦過程當中我們尊重司法單位查辦的一個過程跟結果啦那至於有沒有中國其他權益輪的活動樣態事實上這是我剛才在跟媒體朋友說明所以我們接下來主要的關注跟應處的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5755.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5775.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那因為這些可能的權利輪到我們周邊的活動它不止有可能會像這一次發生儀式損害我們海欄的狀況它也有可能是可以來佈放一些海上的徵收的一個裝備那甚至透過他們這種比較不尋常的海上軌跡的活動來干擾我們相關海防任務的一個執行增加我們的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5776.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5802.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
所以這部分我剛剛也在跟黃人委員說明過去我們針對中國籍的船舶各種的船舶包括各種的拖船、貨船所謂的這種滾裝貨輪或是海調船、公務船海調船指的是海洋調查船、科研船我們都有一個完整的通報機制只要一進階我們馬上就進行通報跟應酬但是權宜輪確實是我們必須要再加強駐收的一個主要的對象因為中國是全世界貨輪最大的傳統國 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5804.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5818.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
他只要把他的權益輪登記在各個其他的第三國籍那在台海周邊活動的話確實對我們國安會產生的潛在風險是不斷的在增加當中好所以我仔細聆聽局長的回應言下之意就是說這可能未來從這個案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5819.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5828.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
我們要注意的它對於我們整個領海水域的安全破壞的可能未來不僅僅只是所謂的海底電纜不論是國際的電纜或者是我們自己國內的電纜會加強這個防注意或防制但是我接下來要問的喔局長你可以先請回主席我要請這個海巡署交通部跟中華電信總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5841.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5847.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
就是事情發生之後當然我知道現在地檢署都已經在進行相關的偵辦調查可是我想要回到這個案件的本身因為我今天特別仔細的看了大家的報告大家都各說各其中一塊我先講一下事發回到1月3號海巡署獲得了通報這是海巡署的新聞稿講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5865.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5891.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
在3號的12點40分海巡署接到中華電信的通報之後就趕赴了現場那發現就要求這個S輪立刻返回基隆港然後在海外接受調查我想要問海巡署的署長喔那麼接受到通報之後的SOP是什麼然後S輪有接受調查嗎在海外接受調查嗎署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5892.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5911.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
是我們接12點40分1月3號10點40分就通報立即派遣100噸艇趕往現場那也在下午4點40分攔截到這艘S輪我們立即要求他配合我們返回基隆外海接受調查因為那個地方海象不好他也配合所以在基隆外海我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5912.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5927.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
跟他做收證包括全船的照相跟錄影等等那因為燈檢我們要燈檢或是要接駁船長做筆錄都要私放小艇那天海象是六七最大陣風九沒辦法放小艇在 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5928.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5947.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
過了九個小時之後呢從報案從斷纜到7點45分斷纜我們12點40分接到報案一直到4點40分已經過了九個小時那因為不是現行犯我們不排除他有嫌疑不排除有勾斷海底的可能海底的可能但不是現行犯所以沒有扣留 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5947.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5951.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好 所以言下之意就是因為距離的時間很久再加上海上不佳沒有辦法登船也沒有辦法把他帶回來嗎現在其實本席要問的就是為什麼這艘船就這樣開走因為現在開走之後變成是我們要委請外交單位比如說因為他當時的目的港是釜山嘛所以我們現在只能請他們協助如果海巡署在這裡發生有問題的時候為什麼他沒有入港 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5975.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5979.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
來進行檢查本席就問了如果被我們通緝的人絕對是不可能進入我們的國內對不對但是我來就問海巡署當時覺得他有嫌疑但不是現行犯所以沒有扣留S輪 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5990.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5994.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
沒有把他拉到我們的基隆港來接受調查原因是什麼是不是因為當時他不是目的港他沒有申請所以海巡署要求他進港的時候港務局說S輪必須要經過申請才能入關因為剛剛我一直強調他的目的港不是台灣既然不能登船為什麼不能讓他入港有沒有這樣的情況就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6019.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6023.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他沒有先事先申請入基隆港海巡署 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6024.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6047.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
包委包委除了說不是現行犯還向影響另外呢入港也有入港申請程序所以我們在會後召開跨部會會議我們有共識以後內案齁馬上報警檢察官優先待案相關程序我們跟交通部航港局都協調好了以後內案優先待反所以言下之意就是這個案子他凸顯的是一個橫向上面聯繫的問題我沒有要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6050.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6073.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
指責或者是究責海巡署因為海巡署是盡力的而且海巡署也希望登檢但是就是因為海象不好所以沒有登檢但是海巡署也覺得即使不是現行犯也有嫌疑嘛我舉個例子如果今天警察在路上發現他疑似張車疑似是錯案的交通工具我警察要去扣這台車但是結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6075.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6099.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
他要把他扣回去停車場的時候停車場說不好意思這台車沒有來申請停車所以我不能讓他進來那這個是不是就錯失了可能犯案的所謂現行犯或者是喔不是現行犯犯案的歹徒那在這個部分所以你們接下來以後會有橫向的聯繫就算是沒有申請來港務局港務局今天有有有嗎港務局是港港局好港港局 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6105.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6134.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那個北航中心的主任是我們的組長嗎?香港局主任所以這個橫向聯繫是有達成共識嗎?因為今天交通部來的層級不夠高1月6號下午我們跟海巡組有開過會已經定調一個共識有關這個船舶進出港我們隨時來配合辦理因為這個其實很荒謬而且我必須講中華電信隸屬哪個單位?交通部是吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6135.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6154.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
然後我們的交通部航港局也是交通部是吧是今天中華電信的電纜遭受損失跟海巡署來報案結果海巡署要把船拖進來結果航港局說抱歉這艘船沒有申請所以不能進來我們只能放他走 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6155.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6168.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
如果是這樣我真的覺得這個問題值得關注如果你們1月6號現在已經進行了相關的聯繫我希望這個事件不要再發生最後我還是要再請一次這個蔡局長不好意思最後一點時間齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6170.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6188.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那麼我想問一下剛剛已經有講了未來會有一些處理但是我們知道這件事情是國安的事件但是感覺上執法的是海巡署要加強監控的可能是海巡署國防部跟速發部還有通傳會可能NCC等等那麼現在最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6189.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6200.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個問題就像如您所說它未來可能會是一個灰色侵擾的樣態可能會不斷不斷地出現而台灣的危害可能不是只是電纜那麼未來組織單位會是誰我剛剛問的那個問題其實就是這樣一邊是海巡署一邊是交通部兩邊沒有講好也沒有橫向聯繫的時候好船隻就讓它走了現在我們就得要麻煩韓國麻煩釜山那麼接下來這樣的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6216.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6224.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
請問一下國安局我們應該要誰來主責如果遇到同樣的樣態類似的樣態對這部分事實上國安會也有召開相關的會議來做委員比較關切的怎麼樣來強化跨部會之間的協調那這個機制我們來把它建立那第二部分是就國安局的立場來講那剛剛也跟委員說明我會針對相關比較可疑傳播的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6237.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6262.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
跟海巡這邊來建立起一個即時通報的機制特別是針對權宜輪的部分那另外我們在接下來也會針對中共揮袋洗腦一樣他也會有針對海巡署的各個幹部跟同仁來開設一些課程來讓他們更了解可能中共在周邊水域主要的一個侵擾的一個主要的模式那也讓海巡來檢討一下目前的作業機制跟執法的規範有沒有更進一步可以撤進的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6262.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6272.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
好 謝謝局長 大家請回 謝謝我們今天這個國防外交委員會開到最後一刻 大家都辛苦了 新年快樂謝謝林慈玲委員 局長請回接下來請林益君召委謝謝主席 有請陸委會的副主委有請沈副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6299.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6326.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
主席好委員早副主委早今天有很多委員其實都是關心我國最近1月3號的海底電纜遭到一個香港貨船順心39號的脫斷的問題還有這1月6號的時候也發生了一艘由香港公司的中國權宜輪的蒙古籍的保順號的貨輪在新北市的石門近海發生異常的來回航行然後被我國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6326.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6335.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
海巡關切之後卻說主機故障修復中這樣然後說承諾修完之後就會駛離所以我們發現從保送號的航機圖的曝光這真的是疑點重重啦所以我想請教一下那個副主委就是說這兩個事件在陸委會這樣的判斷是中共的灰色地帶作為還是純屬意外巧合還是你們根本就是不確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6356.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6380.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
基本上我們是按照它的這個航跡圖或者說按照最近的一些其他國家的案例來去做研判當然所有的事情我們不能夠百分之百的說它一定就是怎麼樣但是按照我們跟其他國家經驗的一些比對來看的話還有發生事情的這些巧合點來看的話那麼我們會認為說這個是中共利用揮帶衝突然後來去蓄意破壞電纜的這個可能性是稍微比較高一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6382.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6407.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那這條海底的電纜是屬於國際通信的海南嘛所以其實是有好幾個國家共用的那請問一下有哪些國家共用呢事實上關於這個海底電纜有哪些國家共用的這個部分可能還是要可能是由中華電信或者說其他相關的部會來去做比較完整的掌握但我們這邊所提供的資料大致上來講是連接到像是日本啦或者像是美國啦等等這些國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6408.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6423.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
其實是不是也有包含了中國大陸自己的中國聯通和中國網通的這兩家企業也在使用呢如果這樣的話是要請教一下那個副主委如果這樣海南被破壞是中共刻意在操作的話為什麼他們不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6424.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6444.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
不會把自己用他怎麼會把自己用的海欄切斷呢所以我說如果中國真的存心要破壞海底電纜的話那他們其實大概可以在遠離我們的海巡監控範圍之下動手甚至也可以靠近他們傷害點的地方動手那我只是想說請教一下就是說那你們陸委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6446.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6449.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
這樣覺得他們是刻意冒險的靠近台灣故意要做給我們看的還是有其他的原因然後陸委會的判斷是什麼情況還有你們覺得這兩起的海嵐被切斷的事件扮演了什麼樣的角色陸委會扮演了什麼樣的角色還有做了哪些工作還有沒有跟中國那邊求證還是有沒有跟他們溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6470.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6485.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
是非常謝謝委員的意見那確實是就是說這個海底電纜的部分也有連通到中國的這一塊那但中國為什麼要去做這樣子的一種破壞當然這個意圖上面我們還是要再進一步的去做調查跟確認只不過是說按照近期的幾起案例來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6486.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6501.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那甚至包含像去年我們在馬祖的這個電纜也是有被中國的這個船隻給破壞的這個情況那我們當然是比較合理的去推斷那我們也跟一些其他國際友邦的這個交換情資譬如說像是愛沙尼亞啦或者說像是瑞典啦等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6502.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6525.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
那我們也發現在波羅的海北海地區的這個電纜也是有類似的這個情況發生所以在事件發生的這個時間點上來講都有中國的船隻在附近或者權宜輪在附近因此我們會判斷說這個可能蓄意破壞的機率應該是稍微高一些但至於說陸委會在這個案子裡面會扮演什麼樣的角色我們還是會希望說進一步的來去跟中國大陸去做一個溝通啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6526.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6553.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那雖然說中國大陸目前不見得會願意把這個資料提供給我們甚至也不見得會願意來配合做調查但在政府的立場來講的話我想我們該做的就做那對方能夠用什麼樣的這個回應或者說對方是不是就完全的不理會我們這也不是我們如果會能夠決定的那我們基本上還是會秉持著善意然後也會跟跨部會的一個協調跟溝通未來還是會就基礎關鍵設施的強化來講就大家各自的盡好本分 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6553.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6582.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
所以照你剛才這樣講的 是你們沒有去溝通是嗎不是沒有溝通 是因為基本上這個案例還是有沒有去抗議 對這件事情因為現在還沒有完全的調查完畢所以這艘船 到現在為止就是都沒有任何的作為就對了我們是在內部裡面再進一步的去開會討論然後來等到調查責任比較明確的時候再來做下一步的動作因為我們總部的一天到晚都在喊說看抗中保台嘛但是我們還是要有一點作為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6582.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6584.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
對不對 尤其是發生這種那麼嚴重的事情而且你剛才也講了說這個是中國的刻意的切斷的話這樣其實這個事情是非常嚴重的耶所以似乎是應該是這是陸委會要主管所以你們在溝通還是你們這個其實是一個非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6600.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6626.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我想舉一個那個剛剛提到瑞典的那個案例喔所以當他們比較清楚的查證並且有了一些證據之後他們就會進一步的要求中國來做負責甚至要求要登船來去做一些檢查跟扣押的動作那目前來講我們還沒有走到這一步是因為接下來的相關的事證跟調查都還沒有結束所以如果在還沒有結束的情況下我們就貿然的來提出對於中方的一個抗議的話那當然也有可能會引起不必要的一些爭議啦所以我想我們現階段來講就是加強內部的一個溝通喔然後並且也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6630.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6650.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
能夠調查清楚了之後,責任歸屬完備了之後那麼陸委會就會盡起該有的這個責任來對中方提出一些抗議跟要求好,那我希望陸委會還是要有點作為啦因為這個已經拉高到可能也屬於跨部會的國安問題了,對不對?是,是好,那請回,那我請國安局局長有請蔡局長好,林委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6658.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6666.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
局長早請問海底電纜是不是我們台灣與國際還有離外島的這些區域重要的通信的通道對應該也就是說海底電纜其實是我們台灣的海底數位的生命線我們跟外離島的聯繫主要是透過10條的海底電纜然後萬一斷纜的話這樣對台灣本島還有外島的重大是非常不利的影響然後一旦所有的連外通信網路如果斷鏈了 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6688.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6697.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
是不是就對我國的金融的交易還有股市、醫療、交通、網路還有行動上面的通信都是非常嚴重的影響這樣你們有評估過萬一如果在平時發生重大的海底纜線斷纜的事件會給台灣的經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6705.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6709.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
帶來多少重大的損失如果是發生在戰時的時候那是否會嚴重的壓縮軍事的通信還有造成本外島的指揮的管制的失靈甚至情報分享的網絡因此中斷所以我想請教一下國安局有沒有掌握是否會對我國軍事作戰帶來嚴重不利的影響還有你們的應處的措施書面上的報告剛剛看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6732.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6738.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
也是千編一律的那究竟有沒有真正的實質可以提升確保海嵐鍛鍊的時候數據上面的通聯不斷訊要如何確保基礎的設施還有社會的關鍵服務尤其是金融還有通信還有醫療這些的核心的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6751.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6773.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
對 跟委員說明一下 海嵐確實是台灣聯通國際以及我們外離島主要通訊的一個管道那也因為過去幾年有一些海嵐遭到毀損的狀況所以這幾年下來 包括國安單位跟速發部都有在規劃一些備援系統的一個建制那委員剛剛有提到 要是海嵐遭到損壞的話那事實上以這次的事件來講 馬上就會啟動海嵐的備援機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6776.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6800.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就換另外一條海欄來進行相關的訊息的傳遞所以並沒有造成太大的干擾這是第一部分那第二部分是針對整體性的一個備援系統的建置剛剛我想蘇發部也有稍微說明了一下包括透過微波的通訊的方式或是透過中低軌衛星甚至同步衛星的一個相關備援機制的建置在過去這幾年都有不斷的在推辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6801.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6828.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那這一部分我們也是從國安的角度來評估假如一旦這些海底的電纜遭到的損壞之後我們的國防或我們情報單單位怎麼樣在國家緊急危難的時候或暫時持續的跟我們國家以外的相關的國際友方來保持必要的一個聯繫那這部分事實上國防部在書面報告當中已經有說明了一些相關的規劃作為那基於情報作業的機敏性跟委員說明一下我們情報單位也都有類似的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6829.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6833.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好 我是希望國安局可以應該可以針對這種各種的新型態這些的威脅然後跨部會的整合海巡隊針對在第一個時間前往執法的時候也需要的一些及時的因應還有作為相關設備有一些更新的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6845.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6871.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
有 我們這部分也是不斷地跟海巡署這邊來建立起一些即時連同保密的機制那讓國安局這邊科技情報所掌握到的中共相關船舶的船位可以即時傳輸到海巡署那海巡署畢竟是海上的執法單位所以他們也會調派線上的艦艇第一時間來做必要的查處當然有時候會受限到的是海上的問題那這部分我們當然就會尊重海上執法單位他們在第一時間的判斷那我剛剛也跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6874.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6892.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
林楚英委員在做說明的是我們接下來我跟管主委也討論過怎麼樣來針對中共的海上揮帶襲擾的各種樣態來給海巡署的同仁提供一些訓練的課程那來針對這些新的樣態來檢討海巡署在執法作業上還有沒有可以更精進的地方那這部分我們繼續來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6911.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6919.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
等一下徐巧欣委員執行完畢之後休息五分鐘休息過後再處理臨時提案那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6927.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6955.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長公眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生接下來要請的人多一點那麼有請國安局蔡局長以及速發部的薛次長和海巡署的謝副署長那同時呢請我們NCC的陳處長交通部的陳司長以及中華電信的林總經理請準備那還是要請一下顧部長上來一下顧部長因為我只問一句話就好很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6960.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6966.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
今天我的質詢我先請大家看一個東西關於海嵐我過去的質詢的記錄我質詢過十次 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6975.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7001.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
交通委員會五次 國防兩次 院會甚至問過一次但是今天呢 我想先就教於部長的 是另外一個課題您覺得 部長 顧部長 您覺得灰色地帶作戰最大的特色跟優勢是什麼灰色地帶作戰是不是成本相對低 讓你防不身防簡單講啦 如果要抓走私 你會派軍艦 還是派緝毒犬 派米格魯 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7004.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7014.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
當然不可能派軍艦好 請回就沒國防部的事了嘛請回 謝謝來 蔡局長我們繼續來看下一張今天我們談了很多的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7015.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7039.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我要談的就是我們的策略要符合經濟手段中國貨船全球斷海纜這個大家都知道了往下看切斷海纜的工具呢他早就申請專利真的很可惡再往下看尤其是呢他們的貨輪呢還訊號會造假那要我們去辨識MMSI還有不同身份這些呢都是一種很頭痛的一個事情我請問一下局長你覺得抓賊 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7042.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7053.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
防竊跟反詐欺哪一個比較容易 還是哪一個比較困難都不太容易啦 因為各種的手法不斷的在分析當中是的 那都要做好 那我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7055.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7075.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
現在我們台灣的特色剛講14條國外 10條國內最重要的 你有沒有注意到新增加的TPU的海嵐系統它是Meta來跟投資然後它是走什麼走東岸的Down我們在東岸的上岸點只有投誠其他的三個都在西岸為什麼 局長為什麼我們投誠是接跨太平洋的嘛那TPU呢 從哪裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7082.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7091.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這個海嵐部是要不要請蘇發部來說明會比較詳細你關於很重要來蘇發部來他竟然點了次長你趕快講您覺得為什麼這個TP又要走那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7092.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7112.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
跟委員報告,TPU是日本、韓國、台灣、美國它的路徑從哪裡來?它的路徑是一個環狀的環狀的,對,所以它是從南邊上來的好,謝謝接下來我們要請教局長我們剛剛知道了中國的船舶,我們下一張偵測不法或航機詭異船舶的方法第一個訊號,當然訊號會造假 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7114.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7129.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
第二個雷達雷達可能要透過軍方但是漁船過多軍方的重點是防止這些軍事武裝力量進入侵另外一個用眼睛去看那眼睛去看你派船謝副總長在後面船的成本很大你會怎麼判 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7130.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7158.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們有哪些方式局長你問了什麼方式哪些方式最有效益如何搭配資源夠不夠有沒有其他的方式譬如說低軌道衛星的合成孔徑雷達它看的面比較廣它可以穿透雲層它又不是岸上雷達有沒有考慮過這個方法都有啦事實上委員提到這些方法都存在我們在判定各種船位位置都要針對這些綜合的情質來做比較詳細的研判低軌的合成孔徑雷達的技術本局也有在使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7158.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7180.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
但是這些所有的方法呢 都是要怎麼樣 要抓賊在哪裡 對不對好 接下來呢 在場的人可以聽我一下齁有沒有聽過一句台語的俗諺 下一章做賊一天啊 過夜要整天啊意思是說三更半夜 做賊只要一個小時就得手啦但是你要防止小偷 你要整個晚上都不睡覺 是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7182.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7193.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
大家知道意思吧 所以我要問的情況 今天大家通篇都在問什麼要去登領啊 要登檢啊 要有法律依據啊 要去識別啦 他還會用訊號假照啦怎麼辦 有沒有一個方法 他做賊 他割你的汗很快啊他在那邊尋釋 在那邊東張西望 你也不能對他怎麼樣等你不注意他就下手了 怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7206.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7228.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這部分可能還是會針對他的可能侵擾的樣態去找出比較高風險的船舶的名單我來告訴你一個方法我們很簡單我們的警察人員就早就會這一套了你就看機場的企圖犬米格魯他在那邊秀秀秀一條米格魯沒多少成本但是整個機場旅客都在看他不要問到我偷藏一個肉包 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7229.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7255.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
行蹟可疑是不是要曝光了很簡單除了watch之外除了從上面監控之外就是follow覺得有點可疑的你們可疑模式有沒有建立有了嘛但是又不能登靈啊派一個無人船後面屁股跟啊後面有人跟監他敢下手嗎局長你知道我意思沒有我們防賊啊要找到對的基本成本最低的往下看來我現在請教一下我們的那個先問 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7259.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7287.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
請問副組長你認為戈蘭的幽靈船成本多少培養一個戈蘭的幽靈船幾艘貨船要多少錢目前的話他們有生意專利大概多少錢要不要上要不要20億沒有我現在還沒有這方面的資料我問那個次長通訊中斷的成本國家成本要多少修復海嵐至少要兩千萬要兩千萬美金台幣通訊中斷的損失呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7287.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7312.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
很難估計很難估計對不對好我接下來請教一下因為今天有中華電信在無人機無人船貴不貴局長有沒有做過評估或者副處長無人船貴不貴無人機的滯空時間短我們用無人船比較簡單無人船呢無人船我們也在跟廠商在協調中那目前都在研發階段所以我真的說局長你要阻擇這個策略的運籌帷幄我要跟您說一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7313.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7341.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
就是說,如果這四種事情來比較,我覺得通訊中斷的損失最嚴重海嵐修復次之,養一隻幽靈船來割嵐相對便宜你要用更便宜的方式,搞個一百艘無人船,先一輪後面都跟監你後面再跟,他就不敢動手了無人船的治海時間很長啊所以我請您思考一下,最後我簡單的要問一下,那個我缺次長,來我們往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7342.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7362.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
來我們國家智慧國家2.0新綱領是不是有沒有開個會我們要佈建這些海欄台灣的光纜通道5G雲端聯網通路您知道嘛對不對知道知道好那是誰在主責數位國家整個方案是包括了速發部對包括了交通部還有包括了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7364.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7387.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
國發會,好,來我跟你講一個,下一個本席啊,在上一次,在哪年前,我不只是在兩年前就海南被割斷的事情我甚至在2020年我就提出一個主張,什麼就是東部的光纜通道,還要加一個西岸的光纜通道,還要加一個東岸的光纜站位通道未來我們海南有上路的地點是大武但是大武到頭城,目前有沒有光纖主幹,路上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7389.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7414.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
目前還沒有建 還沒有我那時候要求交通部配置 為什麼因為交通部啊 他的台鐵的路廊很適合布建從大虎到頭城的光線路廊為什麼我要提這個你海欄會被割 路欄會不會被破壞蔡局長會不會 會不會被破壞所以不要只是顧眼前的事情眼前的海欄我兩年前就要再提醒了真的被割了 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7414.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7440.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
現在我再提早兩年告訴你接下來就是入欄的防備但是你佈建一個入欄大概要五年的時間我上次質詢過林佳龍部長如果要在東岸的光線的戰備通道要佈到光線的入欄大概呢要五年計畫去施作市長你覺得可不可行我想在路上佈置比海上更便宜便宜多了也好防護對不對但是你能保證他不攻擊你西岸的光欄入欄嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7443.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7463.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
沒有辦法保證沒有辦法保證嘛所以我今天最重要的一點我要跟你們講一個抓賊防竊反詐欺要找對方法對抗這種灰色地的作戰不要用飛機大砲用小成本的方式拍個米格魯跟在他屁股後面他就不敢下手無人船無人機第二 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7464.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7478.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
預防海嵐的割染事件再度在其他地方發生趕快籌備我們第二條路上的東部幹線的光纖 光嵐可以提個報告嗎第二個提案可不可以請速發部來研議一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7480.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7499.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 那麼蔡局長第一個方式 我已經跟你提了很多方式了不管是訊號假照 詭異航跡那個都要很發功夫的不管你用低軌道的衛星的合成光線雷達去Watch還是你用岸上雷達去掃描還是你派我們的海巡船上去要登林都很貴 買幾條米格魯 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7501.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7522.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
投資一些五人船嫌疑犯可能的嫌犯全一輪後面屁股跟肩船身漆得紅紅的讓他看得到我跟你講啦想要爬竊的人看到有自捕警察他就不做了啦最簡單的方式就是鑒警率啦那警察呢不要派真人的派五人機的可以考慮嗎好 這麼來演繹也提供給海上司法單位參考謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7526.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7536.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
謝謝中嘉賓委員那請委員的要求並一個月內提出書面報告接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我想請這個國安局蔡局長以及我們這個交通部還有中華電信 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7558.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7573.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們看到最近在中華電信的國際電纜海纜野柳方向的海域底下中斷這件事情大家都覺得這是一個國安危機那我想要先詢問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7575.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7595.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
交通部跟中華電信交通部跟中華電信那我們這一個在相關地區的海嵐有哪一些公司有哪一些公司是中華電信自己在製作的嗎還是發包出去請其他公司製作包委員是不是請中華電信來對我剛剛講中華電信跟這個交通部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7598.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7625.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
報告委員海蘭布蘭是很專業所以都是委託專業公司布蘭委託專業公司那我想請問有哪幾家公司來協助我們做專業布蘭像這個日本然後像沒有我要講你每一家公司的名字台灣的部分好不好我們台灣有沒有公司沒有這都是國際公司好沒有我們台灣沒有任何一家公司來協助我們的中華電信來做電纜的製作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7627.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7643.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
電纜製作有但是布纜這個是布纜沒有嗎但是電纜有嗎那但是我們這一次是電纜的部分被剪了嗎不是是國際的海纜裡面是光纜我們是國際的海纜裡面是光纜那所以說呢好 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7644.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7672.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我們在講到的事情是那未來我們海底電纜因為國際重要通訊手段那這個有關於電網的韌性情勢發生有沒有可能除了我們這次的部件之外有沒有可能未來我們台灣自己在底下埋的電纜也有被剪斷的機會跟可能性這應該分國內陸纜跟國際的海纜部分國際海纜 海纜也有我們台灣自己製造的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7674.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7703.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
有吧因為國際海嵐它事實上是要綿延幾千公里所以事實上是要特殊製作那據我的理解大部分都是國外大部分那有國內的嗎國內的我可能要查一下但是在國內的木蘭部分是有的我說的是海嵐海嵐比較少比較少但是有沒有我可以查一下你可以查一下什麼時候可以告訴我們應該馬上就查一下馬上應該是沒有啦應該是沒有沒有嗎來我們給大家看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7704.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7704.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
好 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7705 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7733.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
其實實際上我先前在國安這個國防外交委員會的時候我們就已經質詢過了在這家中華電信的這個子公司裡面世芳電訊它是唯一一個電信機房的合作它的服務呢包含是中國大陸跟香港在整個世芳電訊的東南亞佈局裡面它包含做的是國際的中立金房還有相關的這個網路交換中心還有呢這個台灣主要的相關的公友交換平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7734.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7759.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
的關口跟什麼呢台灣主要國際海欄的閘口我請問一下這個台灣國際海欄的閘口是否是由電信這個四方電訊有跟我們台灣這邊中華電信有合作剛才談到的我們的離島之間的海欄還有剛才談到主要海欄都是中華自己沒有經過四方 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7760.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7785.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
沒有經過釋放來我們看下一張再看下一張這個是我們從這個櫃買公司上面下載下來的因為他們是上市公司它上面五之一怎麼寫呢TPCX國際海嵐借街中心它上面寫台灣唯一公有的私有海嵐匯集的IDC電信大樓可以快速提供海嵐交匯的備援服務上面寫的呢這個私有海嵐電子 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7786.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7815.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
等等的那公有的都是接到這個IC大樓裡面那包含了淡水的海嵐站巴黎的海嵐站投誠的海嵐站跟方山的海嵐站我想要問的事情是如果中國大陸對這些因為世方電訊是中華電信的子公司所以我才會提出這個問題它不是單純的一家普通的公司它是中華電信的子公司所以我想問一下如果這個世方電訊它所設立的相關的電纜被中國大陸減掉的話對台灣有什麼影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7817.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7835.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我想會有部分影響,但是竹農這一次所發生的情況沒有,我現在是在跟你講說其他的嘛,因為我們就是舉一反三嘛,對不對?我就現在問你的問題,你回答我問你的問題就好啦以中華來講,這一次我們調度的電纜、海纜全部都是中華治理,沒有經過四方 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7836.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7852.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
不是嘛 我就問你說世芳有沒有做這個嘛它有它自己的一個服務因為它也是一個上市櫃公司它有它的運作是 但它有沒有跟中華電信去合作來做相關的海欄那如果今天這個海欄被剪掉之後那對於整個台灣是否會有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7853.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7877.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
跟委員報告這裡面有兩個中央字叫備援那意思就是說如果中華自己擁有的寒冷全部都斷了全部我們會利用四方的那但是是全部都斷好那我們再看前面這家四方電訊它是中華電信的子公司這個沒有錯吧那但是這家四方電訊它卻跟中國大陸的非常多家的電信公司都在合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7878.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7901.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那我們讓這一家釋放電訊 這次比較小 可是你可以看得到包含中國電信包含中國大陸幾乎所有的電信 它還提供中國大陸的優質服務跟中國大陸的多家電信業者進行緊密的合作我的意思是我們在考量國家安全的時候 你都說了如果今天所有的電纜被剪掉的話 釋放電訊它可以提供的是備援 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7902.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7925.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
那但是他卻同時的在跟中國大陸做這麼密切的電信的來往那這對我們的國家來說其他就有可能是一個破口所以既然他是我們的子公司那我們跟他們之間在討論這些問題的時候難道我們沒有任何的主導權嗎是 我跟委員報告一下他的事業就是做一個國際的接口 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7927.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7954.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
國際歸國際 我們現在因為你們最喜歡講的一句話叫做國際沒有要侵 其他國家沒有要侵略台灣但中共有啊不是嗎 你們最喜歡講的不是這句嗎所以我今天只講中國大陸嘛你不要跟我扯其他國際的東南亞什麼的我們都接受啊但問題是 四方電訊你剛剛講了它是可以作為我們電纜如果都出狀況的時候的一個備援但它同時的合作夥伴大多都是中國大陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7955.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7979.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那這個狀況你們要怎麼解釋呢我想說明說因為舉個例子台灣的民眾要看大陸的內容或者要跟大陸通訊是不是一定要有一個接口那這個接口事實上他扮演的就是這種角色那除非我們台灣跟大陸不接觸完全斷絕通訊否則的話一定要有人扮演台灣跟那為什麼不能是另外一家的公司來協助這個服務呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7979.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8005.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
因為它已經涉及到所謂的電纜是跟國家安全有關的啊我沒有說不讓兩兩岸之間有溝通跟服務的可能性但為什麼我們只能有一家公司要把這些所有的東西都用完呢我這邊有特色那顧部長不用上來但是大家也可以想一想這件事情它如果真的發生說兩岸之間有衝突的時候的嚴重性喔我相信蔡明彥部長也非常清楚喔那你們可以先下去了我先下來要請教的是蔡部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8007.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8029.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那個,我要請到國防部長吧,不好意思,那個顧部長請上台,謝謝,不好意思,那個蔡長可以先回去,謝謝,但是我剛剛講了,你們要想一想這個風險性,想一想這個風險性,那個部長,我這邊要跟你請教一個,希望那個主席可以給我一點時間,就是呢,大家知道現在有一個網紅叫做八九, |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8030.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8046.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
那他先前呢在他的這個YouTube上面他講說台灣呢有十幾二十萬人是領有中國身分證而且一個城市有三四千人是在排隊的可是我們內政部長去查詢之後發現說呢其實不到十個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8047.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8072.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那我就算過如果有20萬的國人同時擁有中華人民共和國的身分證的話大概就是代表說有1%的台灣人都擁有中華民國的身分證那假設我們再配上國軍的志願役的原額16萬人來說一趴裡面可能有1600人去潛藏於部隊當中那我們在簽志願役的時候當然有載民不得具有雙重國籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8074.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8090.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
所以如果沒有算一物一物的話可能更多所以部長你覺得有可能說這個劉士芳部長已經查了啦她說查完之後不到十個人你覺得有可能說台灣有二十萬人同時擁有中華人民共和國的身份證跟這個中華民國身份證嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8092.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8107.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
跟委員報告我的了解是像他有不同的一個有身份證有定居證他講的是身份證有居住證他有三個不同的如果要拿到中國的身份證的話其實他整個就要放棄我們這邊的戶籍然後台胞證也沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8119.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8140.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
所以這個部分的話我想可能要有一些區隔那如果說他放棄這邊的戶籍的話然後甚至放棄掉台胞證的話我想我們應該可以想辦法來查得出來在我們的國軍裡面有沒有這樣的一個狀況但是其實內政部已經幫我們去查啦因為內政部他查的是全國國人全體國人當然也包括我們的軍人在內嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8146.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8169.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所以他就講說有20萬人這件事情最後劉仕芳部長他已經出來講說內政部查是他是查全國國人當然也包含國軍只有不到10個人而已不到10個人所以呢這其實就是一個假訊息我坦白說因為既然內政部長他是負責管理這些包含人口的他去查只有10個人那我現在要講的事情是跟國防部有關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8170.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8197.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
就是說呢我們在113年的12月19號的禮拜四在53工兵群的工兵支援營的裝備連裡面裝備連的連輔導長林信的中尉在12月19號禮拜四要放舉光原地之前先放了這個影片而且呢放這個影片給我們國軍弟兄看他還講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8199.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8210.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
他們等於是去PUA我們的國軍說呢 你看某一些政黨跟中共一定有瓜葛我坦白講就是國民黨跟民眾黨一開始還把民眾黨講成民主黨這個感覺完全沒有什麼政治素養所以我的意思是說軍人 國軍軍隊應該要保持中立這個部長您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8224.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8247.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我想在國安法裡面有要求國軍要維持政治中立對 所以他在看這個舉光原地之前這個輔導長先播放剛剛那樣子的一個假訊息的影片然後去告訴我們的國軍說你看有20萬人都有這個中華人民共和國的身份證然後再告訴大家說就是國民黨跟民眾黨做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8248.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8268.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那個部長您覺得這樣子的一個輔導長他做這樣子的一個做法是合理的嗎我想委員因為剛剛才告訴我這樣子的一個訊息我想我必須要去深切的了解他整個的一個脈絡我才好回答委員的問題我現在沒有辦法立即下回答委員這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8273.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8293.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
妳不需要立刻回答我 因為妳們也需要查證嘛那我相關的資料包含這個細節我也會在會後提供給國防部但我希望如果妳們查到這個是屬實我非常確定是屬實啦因為這是我們的親朋好友在當兵的時候發生的事情啦所以沒有什麼可能是造假的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8294.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8319.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
然後再來我就希望就是說我們可以在這個議題上面就是要好好的去管理我們的部隊就是他自己個人可以有自己的政黨傾向他可以有他喜歡的網紅但是他不應該在播放舉光原地之前去播放有意識形態的網紅的影片還跟所有的軍人講說你看吧就是國民黨就是民眾黨其實就算他今天講說就是民進黨也不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8321.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8344.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
不应该把我们社会上的政治意识形态带到军中里面还用一种教育的方式去PUA我们的国军我觉得这是一件不正确的事情所以我希望我们的顾部长可以针对此事详加调查未来不要再发声可以做到吗我会下去做一个比较详细的了解好谢谢谢谢许巧心委员部长请回 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8350.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8358.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
現在休息五分鐘休息期間國安局及相關的單位可就臨時提案內容再進行溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8850.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8851.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
好 我們繼續開會我們現在處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8858.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8884.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
臨時提案鑒於中國利用灰色地帶侵擾我海域情況日益猖狂近日更發生權宜輪疑似割斷我海底電纜以案事件發生後雖經海巡人員及時趕赴現場然因國內海港單位及港務公司作業規定以致第一線執法人員未能扣留相關證物不立後續相關司法調查民事求償程序進行建請國安單位因檢討並確立持等惡意破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8887.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8903.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
危及國安案件發生時,相關單位執法規定及航空單位優先配合事項,必能有效打擊犯罪。維護我國家安全,提案人委員陳冠廷、沈博洋、羅美玲、林益君、王逸川等委員宣讀完畢。請問提案委員需不需要說明? |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8910.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8936.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
謝謝那今天有幾位委員有特別有提到這一個港務公司的部分我們林委員也有那等一下我們資訊也會講所以這個部分我們希望透過臨時提案的方式來去督促相關的單位不要到時候就是有那種破壞但是沒有辦法救責的狀況這個部分再請各部會來協助謝謝請問國安局對此提案內容有沒有什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8942.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8963.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
剛剛秘書單位宣布的內容好像不是協調的內容那可能文字上我們剛剛都有做過一些溝通討論那特別是針對提案內容第五行的部分我們建議修改為建請國安單位協助執法機關檢討並確立此等惡意破壞危及國安案件發生時那後面的不改沒有更改所以這部分再麻煩列入那個文字的修改謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8969.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8973.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
現在有幾個版本 交通部跟國安局的版本是不是請交通部來講一下交通部這邊報告原則上在第三行的地方請航港局及港務公司配合第一線執法人員扣留證物以立後續的相關司法調查 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8997.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9000.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
請問其他在場的委員有沒有什麼意見那請議事人員宣讀提案的修正文字重新宣讀修正之提案鑒於中國利用灰色地帶侵擾我海域情況日益猖狂近日更發生權宜淪於是割斷我海底電纜一案事件發生後水晶海巡人員及時趕赴現場請 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9027.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9043.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
航港單位及港務公司配合第一線執法人員扣留相關證物以利後續相關司法調查民事求償程序進行 建請國安單位協助執法機關檢討並確立此等惡意破壞其他文字桶原始提案 宣讀完畢請問陳委員這樣可以嗎 可以 謝謝那本題這本提案我們就修正通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9059.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9087.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台質詢我們先請海巡 海巡署請海巡署委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9088.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9101.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
你好想請教一下海巡署這一次的海欄的這個割斷的狀況是3日上午8點被中華電信發現12點通報海巡署然後下午4點左右來去攔檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9104.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9122.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
這個該嫌疑船隻在海巡署接獲通報的四個小時內大概做了哪些工作我們第一時間首先先請教一下正確的船舶名稱是什麼我們現在因為他兩個號碼一直在切換柯麥隆新舜39那他又切換到舜新39 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9125.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9153.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
跟委員報告我們接到是12點40分接獲中華電信報案通報是7點45分疑似海嵐受損我們接到通報第一時間依照我們作業流程先回放雷達航機要找出可疑的船舶跟中華電信確定之後馬上派遣巡防艇100噸巡防艇趕到可疑的船舶那邊去攔截在3點50分攔截到4點40分我們要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9154.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9181.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
現場要求到我們基隆港外海那邊接受調查他也配合然後我們就進行收證包括照相錄影那接下來我們要登檢或者是請船長做筆錄我們都要放小艇才有辦法過去那天海象不好六七正風九浪高三到四米所以我們就沒有放小艇登檢那因為最重要的是第一個海象不佳 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9182.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9189.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
沒辦法登檢第二個他已經過了九個小時所以不是現行換那雖然有嫌疑但是沒有具體事證所以我們沒有扣留 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9190.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9214.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
好我來確定一下沒有登檢那它是不是在12海里以內是11.3海里是在12海里內12海里內所以假設如果氣候許可是可以登檢行使所有的這個我們可以自行因為它是在我們的這個領海內是的包括現在電信管理法其實有修過對於故意跟過失都是有刑責 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9215.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9230.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
有一說剛才林委員也有在質詢中問到是不是因為港務局相關的或者是港務公司沒有足夠的船席讓他們回來或者是說在船席上面後續的要支付的規費不足所以不允許海巡帶回有沒有這一說 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9231.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9256.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們在溝通過程中可能就是雙方有誤解因為要有代理行才能夠進去但是扣案的話事實上是可以特別處理那不管怎麼樣這在橫向聯繫我們馬上在1月6號召開跨部會會議那目前有共識以後內案的話我們優先扣留船舶然後航港局提供一切必要的資源我們請航港局 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9267.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9287.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
你好,想請教一下港港局當天是用什麼樣的原因來拒絕這些相關的船隻進來?是剛才海鮮族的一次嗎?那天沒有去拒絕的這個問題沒有拒絕的問題?沒有,是那剛說溝通有問題,是溝通在?沒有,因為是詢問,詢問的話我們會告訴他一些相關的作業程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9288.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9308.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
然後因為這個作業程序十分的繁雜那沒辦法在當時完成所以就沒有辦法進去跟我們有報告不是這樣子應該是說他問的是一般的作業程序那我們當然按照一般的作業程序來跟那個海巡署這邊來做說明好那沒關係剛才有提到有跨部會說明之後在這次的事件之後那之後的SOP是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9309.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9322.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
跟委員報告我們在1月6號跟海巡署開完會之後我們有更精進的一個策進作為那這個作為的話就是航港局在會同港公司又針對岸船的話會安排飲水跟托船來進來協助來做進港的一個作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9324.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9351.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以以後會有飲水人進來然後以後會有保留船席給這種特殊狀況然後讓他們可以進行完整的檢查會來做協調好那除了這個之外根據58條的商港法的檢查裡面是不是可以再加強針對船師設備裡面特別是AIS有沒有在這一個請他們開啟之後來看他們有沒有用多種船級的名稱就是說這個未來的檢查是不是有在你們的SOP裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9351.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9377.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們針對這個案子以後的所有這種傳播有無開啟有無中斷有無異常過去它是其中一項但不是每次都會檢查以後會有每次都會檢查有沒有開啟有沒有異項有沒有這些全部都會是因為我們這一次剛才我們就提到一下子順心是坦薩尼亞級的新順39號或者是柯麥隆的順心39號表示說他們在不同的時間點開啟就是意圖要混淆那這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9378.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9400.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
做法未來其實他們12月的時候有進港啊那個時候檢查嘛有沒有檢查到他有可能會做這樣的那時候沒有去做這個訊號的特別檢查沒關係那未來以後就有這個SOP特別針對一些比較生育比較好的這一個國家就是給予傳輯的國家比方說產生尼亞克麥隆他們是在國際上面他們的評價給予的這種稽查的這種評價是比較低的這種是不是可以加強我們的這個警戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9405.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9423.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
更為報告我們有五個黑旗國這黑旗國我們都列為必檢的一個對象黑旗國哪幾個是最大那個克麥隆、台商尼亞剛好就是這兩間嘛對就這兩個國家那以後這個就是要加強做這個措施補救針對這黑旗國當然是要加強好不好那這個全部來去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9425.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9447.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
做討論那其實今天的主角今天我們的臨時提案也就是針對這個部分特別是海巡署跟港務不要到時候我們現在有做了幾個部分就是首先是偵查然後再來就是減掉拘然後未來是防範那至少在我們在偵查到之後我們要執法的時候一定要有地方可以執法不然現在他說本來說他現在去向是要去釜山但是現在有看到他的航跡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9449.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9467.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
沒有嘛 沒有所以就我們錯失一個機會所以說未來希望能夠確保說至少我們的執法的時候可以有足夠的嚇阻力知道說當他們做這些事情的時候是有嚇阻的效應在的那接下來我想請教一下這個中華電信交通部跟中華電信好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9474.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9476.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
想請教中華電信是否有計畫將海嵐自動警戒系統裝設在國際海嵐上 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9483.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9510.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
現在事實上我們就有就說在現在的我們AIS的預警系統事實上就有對國際海嵐的部分有做視察有做檢查應該說有做監視啦Sorry有做監視已經有了嘛對不對對已經有了現在這麼簡單的問題為什麼我們辦公室問的時候就說你們明天要問嗎你們明天要問嗎對啊我們今天是要問啦可是其實提早跟我們講我們就知道說整個狀況嘛這不是什麼大問題好不好這個海嵐的狀況我們第一時間就要理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9511.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9523.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
那我想請教一下如果裝設系統有沒有需要多國協調的部分就是說哪一個地方或者是哪一個段是需要多國協調還是只要我們想要就可以去裝設因為我們的監視系統是以這個AIS這個訊息為基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9529.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9557.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以他的前提應該是說船必須有裝AIS這是第一個條件那按照現在的人道的一個機制的話他是有要求說只要是客船一定要裝那如果不是客船的話一般的船300噸以上就要裝那但是呢可能還是有些船並沒有這樣做那或者是剛才談到說有的船可能是一個船裝了好幾個那另外一個部分是中華電信有沒有加入國際海欄保護組織國際海欄保護我們加入我們加入很多個那個國際海欄的組織 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9558.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9583.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
但是目前尚未加入國際海欄組織嗎要看是您提的是哪一個因為我們舉個例子ICPC沒有關係這個有加就沒有沒有加的話我們就我想請教說類似這樣子的國際合作的狀況因為這個海欄就比方說這次我們事故的這個發生的地段它這個海欄的這個使用國家不只台灣包含中國也有使用嘛所以我也希望在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9584.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9607.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
在質詢台上跟所有的民眾跟報告其實跟所有民眾報告他每一次對海瀾的切割他不是針對台灣一個國家傷害而已他可能傷害的是周邊各國甚至包含中國的使用國所以我們是希望說像類似這樣子的狀況把中華電信的海瀾馬上偵測到然後馬上反映的我們也要跟國際社會來講說它的傷害不是只是針對台灣一個國家的傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9612.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9639.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
它所傷害到的是整個國際層面都有包含到的所以這個部分我是希望中華電信未來也可以跟相關的狀況我們遇到的狀況跟它所影響的國家也可以透過國際的平台讓大家知道這點可不可以我補充一下國內的離島海欄跟國際的海欄情形不太一樣如果是以國內的離島海欄因為它是點對點譬如說台灣對金門那這一段就全斷了這是國內的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9641.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9656.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那以國際來講有些當然是點對點但是以這次來講它事實上是有一個Mesh簡單講就是中間有一條主幹然後各個國家接上去那這一次斷的時候是斷在我們接上去那邊所以這次斷是台灣第一個受影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9657.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9685.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
台灣是第一個受影響是那再來就是看說這一段接上去這一段裡面有沒有其他國家的電路如果有他們也會受影響但不是每一個都受影響所以這一次有中國有沒有受到影響應該也有部分有部分受到影響那這個那謝謝數位部那我們資訊是吻合的現在每一個部門因為他的掌管的區段都不一樣所以可能真的是要跨部會因為我聽到數位部講說是不只一個國家會受到影響你剛才是證實了嘛包含中國都有可能因為他們這次傷害我們的電纜 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9686.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9711.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
也會受到一下數據的影響這次好像是切斷4星嘛就是總共大概16星然後這次切斷到4星是這樣嗎應該是就全斷了全斷了那這一個部分再請未來數位部給我們的資訊要正確一點因為他們跟我們講說是部分斷裂所以拜託以後進來各個數位任性有任性司嘛那我們這些相關的訊息可不可以也跟他們講比較清楚一點因為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9712.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9733.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
接到的訊息是局部破壞掉其他大部分都能夠通訊但是前天我們直接問的時候是這樣那希望中華電信自己本身是受到影響的那在跟跨部會特別是數位任性相關的部會的時候把真實的狀況跟他們講這樣子我們做質詢的時候也更有所本好不好好 謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9742.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9745.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
接下來我們請李坤城委員上台質詢謝謝主席先請這個國安局蔡局長還有這個陸委會的省副主委請蔡局長和副主委謝謝主席 委員好局長好 副主委好 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9769.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9791.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那請教一下,這個具有中國背景的這個群衣輪,那這次把這個我們的這個海底電纜把它切斷了,把它破壞了,那請問一下,這算不算是一種灰色地帶的一個作戰?對,這種行為樣態我們當然會歸類為可能的灰色地帶的一種侵擾的活動。這個算嗎?好,那問一下這個副主委。 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9792.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9816.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那在你們報告裡面有提到說,這個像是這個俄羅斯的這個影子艦隊的這一種形式是不是?騷擾的形式嗎?是,因為我們比對跟這個俄羅斯在波羅的海、北海的一些破壞行為,確實是發現有一些類似之處。好,那就請教局長跟副主委了。那既然是這個灰色地帶的作戰,那也類似這一個是這個俄羅斯的這個影子艦隊,那接下來要如何去做因應呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9819.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9833.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
對這部分我們會建立一個即時的通報的機制那假如海嵐遭到損毀的話那由二十四小時的通報機制來請相關單位能夠來第一時間進行查處那第二部分就國安的角度來講我們還是希望能夠機先預警因為處理這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9834.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9861.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
相關的案況的話到不同的部分的處理有的是在進行營運安全狀態的監控跟24小時的通報那有的是在做執法的查處這包括海上執法機關海巡署的主要權責那就情報機關來講我們會希望能夠針對比較有可能造成這種揮帶侵擾的可疑的高風險的船隻相關的名單跟他的活動的軌跡可以來建立一個機制那一旦這些船舶進階到我們周邊海域就可以啟動相關的機制來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9862.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9879.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那局長你說講的是之後要做的事情還是之前就有做的之前有做主要是針對中國籍的船隻那但是這一次的事件發生的是中國所謂第三國的權宜輪那委員也知道因為權宜輪一般在我們周邊海域初步來講我們都視為是無害通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9880.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9897.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
所以在監控上確實機制沒有像過去針對中國的船舶的監控那麼的嚴密那這部分我們會來做一些所以未來是具有中國背景的權宜輪你們會建立一個名單嗎對我們會來朝這方面來努力建立一個名單那只要它在我們的這個附近的這個海域或是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9898.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9925.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
具有這個海底電纜的這個附近在比如說在那邊然後行跡很詭異那你們就會做這個預防對但這部分因為權利輪的數量非常的龐大中國是全世界貨輪傳統國最大的國家那我們當然必須要針對比較高風險可疑的或是有過去這種為異常樣態的權利輪來做一些名單的管制好那請問一下那過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9926.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9948.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
看到你們報告每年有平均七到八次遭中國船隻迫害我們的海底電纜那請問一下有沒有求償過這部分應該要由相關的電信單位中華電信對 中華電信他們會跟海上執法機關來進行報案那有的也會再移送到地檢署請問一下有沒有求償過中華電信有嗎有求償過那數據呢我們在國內可能過來這邊回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9956.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9982.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
你跟大家做說明去年講去年好了去年有沒有球場過應該有但是還在進行中那我的理解是有球場成功的但是案件很少因為基本上剛才談到說的這個舉證稍微困難的那球場成功的有國內的也有國際的你把這資料準備一下瞭解一下那到底這個具有這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9983.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9996.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這個全銀輪然後把這個海底電纜破壞了那每次都是你們在促銜這座鼠林道到底有沒有求償那我們有沒有登船檢查過有沒有這可能是請那個執法單位海巡署來做一些補充謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10000.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10014.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
就是在我舉例有求償過也有登檢過110年7月24四十三共和國武順霍倫他疑似在台門北門勾斷天壇跑到北方海域我們桃園登檢把相關證據交給那時候還沒求償850萬元就一次有兩次兩次登檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10025.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10047.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
台馬更多 台馬我們更多那這部分我先跟委員報告這個案例就是球場成功那像去年台馬那個有球場嗎台馬的話另外後續都在持續在進行中那有上傳燈檢過嗎我們燈檢很多那但是剛才我舉例的是四川共和國這個是球場成功我們桃園県也有派員燈檢好 剩下一點點時間我問一下這個顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10051.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10055.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
來 部長 剛才講的都是外患 現在要講內憂你們的預算被凍結了18億 有關潛艦國造的部分部長你怎麼看 你要凍結18億 這會不會造成什麼樣的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10067.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10087.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
我想在外交官委員會我們已經有召開過會議了我們當時通過的這個案子就是說呢我們還是希望二十一能夠通過但是在主決議當中呢我們承諾等到海策通過之後呢我們才會予以動之那請問一下海策大概是哪個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10088.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10108.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
海撤如果要完成預計要到九月到九月那如果說它可以動之的話你到九月才能用就對了對我們承諾就是海撤通過以後才能動用那請問一下那如果這樣子會造成這個什麼樣的影響你們這個船廠的簽約款能夠付嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10110 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10127.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
你們裝備這邊付款能夠做嗎我們現在當然就是希望海車通過之後因為現在事實上台船已經在做一些前置作業了那我們會先跟台船簽約會兩艘的潛艦嘛那他就要跟他的次承包商來進行這些前置作業然後他也要備料 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10128.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10156.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那另外呢他可能會就這個船殼的這個部分來先行進行來維持他的這個能量不然的話人才會流失所以我們為了人才的這個維持也希望這個潛艦的這個21能夠在海事通過以後就能夠動之但是重點是在於海這個如果這個預算是能夠通過的話我想對整個國際也好特別對台船也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10159.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10179.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
建的這一個信心就會產生就會產生的話下游的次懲罰商就會願意跟他進行簽字作業那再下來的話他整個的他可以先動用他的自有資金來進行相關的準備的一些作業我想這個部分對後續建的建造的期程的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10181.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10205.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
這個能夠會有一個相當大的幫助因為九月過了以後就等於下個會期我們已經過了下個會期的編列嘛那我們等於沒有辦法編在下個年度那等於要再編到再後續的後年的下個年度那而且這個時候對於後續建到底要不要繼續建造我想各國都在看最有可能是明年預算會沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10209.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10219.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
如果凍結沒有通過或者是刪掉的話那明年那就沒有辦法能夠維持住這一個後續建造的信心那你們的業務費也被凍結了70% |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10223.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10239.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這個業務費凍結78幾乎是造成不可能運作因為作業維持費跟軍事投資相關的業務費用都是我們現在維持我們國軍的基本戰力的一個重要的要素所以如果拿掉的話那這個78凍結 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10243.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10257.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
如果以來講的話那如果到了五月那個時候還沒有開業那又沒有辦法進行解凍的這個部分的話那我想這個整個運作會受到相當大的影響那你們的五輪街產業園區7625萬的預算全部被刪減 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10261.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10278.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
無人機產業我想這是整個國家政策裡面的一環那就這個無人機產業我想現在也有相當就這個輝煌供應鏈來看的話是具有相當大的一個喪跡那我們希望能夠在無人機產業園區裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10280.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10294.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
建立軍民通用的這個版本的一些公版那這些公版如果能夠建制的話那這樣子的話整個無人機產業再加入能夠打入國際的飛鴻供應鏈的話我想整個無人機產業對於我們國家未來的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10297.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10303.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
你這個是在委員會被刪減的還是這個二輪這個三屬動物被刪減的委員會應該是凍結20%吧我記得是這樣子吧應該是無人機產業園區全部7620萬全部都被三屬沒有現在是在委員會裡面是看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10319.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10337.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
委員會裡面是凍結了委員會決議是凍結20%沒有被刪除沒有被刪除但現在應該是國民黨黨團提案要選出全部都刪除嘛所以我覺得這個內憂比外患更可怕啦好 謝謝謝謝李坤誠委員接下來我們請王定宇召委上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10371.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10396.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
來請中華電信總經理還有國安局局長以及我們海巡署我先把一個時間序列問一下海底電纜是中華電信負責的嗎你們在有人把它拖斷了破壞了你們會多久的時間知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10398.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10425.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
報告委員第一時間就會知道因為我們有監視的系統就第一時間那個流量出問題就知道了嘛知道之後你們的標準作業下一個動作是什麼基本上有兩個面向一個面向是因為國際海欄一斷是影響非常大所以我們第一個一定優先處理客戶的訊物希望把他的損害降到最低你們第一時間知道能不能瞭解是什麼原因斷掉可能不知道就只知道斷了斷的位置知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10425.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10443.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
要用設備去打光然後判斷大概要幾分鐘的時間幾分鐘就可以知道斷在哪裡是的所以你們第一個動作是維持客戶的運作要趕快先恢復我們台灣對外聯的海底電纜幾條十條對國際的部分有七條七條那還有離島有十條十條然後備用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10448.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10465.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
呃 離島就是10條 但是我們有像微波跟衛星的多元 那是倍元倍元是另外一件事情喔 低軌道 衛星那什麼的所以我們國際通用是7條 是然後我們離島相關的是10條 10條 對所以 這每一條如果斷了 你們都能夠在數分鐘之內知道斷在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10466.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10494.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
是的第一時間斷我們的系統我們兩邊系統馬上就知道斷但是要判斷地方要時間那判斷地方你們會同時啟動嗎還是會把客戶服務完再回來看斷在哪裡應該是雙管齊下雙管齊下所以理論上有個地方斷了你們大概五分鐘吧幾分鐘內就會知道斷在哪裡嗎大概知道那接下來動作是什麼我們也會通報那個相關單位例如現在有所謂的重大事故的一個通報的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10494.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10496.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我正要問的是多久會到海巡署 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10498.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10525.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
應該這樣講在過去我們的SOP是除了剛才處理之外通報到速發部的那個網站裡面那這個呢事實上是30家網站那這是標準程序但是如果是重大我們當然也會用電話溝通等等那這個是標準程序有另外第二個國土辦在去年也有國土安全的單所以我們同時也會通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10526.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10547.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
海巡坦白說以前因為這個是比較沒有啦但是經過這一次之後我們以後也會同時好我現在再回到前一動你知道斷在哪裡了你有一個單子要通知國土辦你是第一張單子通知他說斷訊了某一條電纜斷了那接下來幾分鐘後知道他斷在哪裡還要不要再通報一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10549.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10565.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
呃一般是會的還是會我不要一般有還是沒有呃我們會續報所以一般來講大概兩個小時內我們會在兩個小時啊這是沒有我講的是標準程序啦沒有我們知道這馬上告訴我聽起來都不標準我現在讓為什麼讓國安局長跟校長坐在這邊呢每一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10568.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10582.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
都要有意義沒有意義的刪掉浪費文書作業你斷訊了讓客戶備員可以運作這是對的但同步有關安全的我第一張單子應該告訴哪個單位告訴他說某一條T1 C1電纜斷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10584.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10610.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
第二章馬上知道第一秒要告訴他斷在什麼位置那我就下面的SOP也許放在國土辦通知海軍通知海巡否則你這一邊就是我在兩小時內要通報你知道疑犯都跑多遠了是所以這沒有標準作業嘛局長我問這你懂意思嗎所以這一次我完全沒辦法去指責或認為海巡署快或慢因為以往海巡署根本沒有在通報對象我這樣講對還是錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10613.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10630.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
有 會通報 但是時間沒有要求那是間接 間接 間接了啦你們沒有通報 你們的通報對象沒有海巡署啊我們會通報 但是沒有標準 絕對沒有規定一定要多久所以沒有規定要多久 我們這邊有一大堆國軍將領喔抱歉沒有 下面有國軍將領 聽到這個你都不知道這樣該怎麼打 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10631.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10655.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那就是有通報也可以慢慢通報也可以快快通報也可以或者沒有通報也可以啊委員我剛才提到國土辦有一個國土辦的事件單那個事實上是我們同時發出去那事件單有沒有要求比如說我現在一旦知道哪個點斷在比如說那個坐標幾度的時候就要立即通報還是要等我忙完其他事情我再來通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10656.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10674.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
我們同時在裡面另外還有一個JOKER我們也同時通報那剛才跟委員報告我因為量有時候要一點時間所以大概會譬如說25分鐘你剛才講幾分鐘現在變25分鐘了不一定因為有時候很難你打光怕過去回來要測那個距離嘛對要測距離而且要判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10675.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10693.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
而且要越精準的話到底要多久有時候我說15分鐘25分鐘差不多啦那我從剛才問到現在你的答案就已經不一樣了我比較為難你這事件是已發生的已知事件如果到現在我還沒有辦法得到標準答案我怎麼希望你下一次能夠有改善呢了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10695.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10719.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
所以這個應該是跨部位我不是指的中華電因為你不負責安全這一塊但現在應該要納入了美國對這個國土這個他們的他們的國土安全署他們在管這個事情的時候有哪些要列管標準作業程序所以我們回到國安局來請局長我剛才問這一趴你就知道問題在哪裡了第一個沒有標準作業程序第二個該通報誰該怎麼處理海底電纜在海底 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10720.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10749.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我不通知海軍我也要通知海巡啊要不然誰去看漁船嗎馬祖跟我們斷聯了我難道不應該通知因為馬祖是我們管制區啊難道不應該通知國防部嗎所以這個標準作業程序沒有發生事情我回過頭問馬祖斷了你國防部怎麼反應那麼慢我能指責他嗎因為第一個時間斷聯的人知道的是掌控這七條國際十條國內的中華電信他的通報你看聽到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10752.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10780.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
對我同意委員的觀點啦也就是說就中華電信來講它畢竟是一個電信服務商啦那它比較關注的是在於電信服務的維持所以這一套建構的系統我覺得國安局對就我們國安單位來講確實像委員講的假如在通報過程當中讓我們的國安單位包括行政院國土辦可以第一時間掌握資訊的話那再傳到國防部海警局對還有國安局這邊我們才可以做必要的即時應出因為我剛才擔心什麼局長如果有一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10781.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10802.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
如果有一天這17條同一個時間斷了,他們怎麼辦?對,那而且甚至不是只有海瀾,就官局的角度來講海瀾假如出問題,資訊到我們這邊,我們除了了解海瀾的狀況之外我們必須要判斷,同時中共的資安供給是不是有升高或是周邊的海事活動有沒有升高,那這部分是我們的關注你繼續聽一下,來,中華電信我再問下一個問題這17條 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10807.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10829.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這績效如果同時斷了你們有沒有能力應變能力怎麼處理剛才跟委員報告以國內來講我們除了10條海欄之外我們還有微波備援我們還有衛星備援我們會啟動備援但它傳遞的那個頻寬數量差很多啦我現在是告訴你比方說你現在中華電信傳說火大今天才17條都回去了你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10831.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10854.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
那個就很像人為的嘛同時17條斷掉你評估你們現在應變能力有沒有這個我們內部做過評估也演練事實上如果是這邊這麼的話一定是一個很辛苦的過程中華電信目前是沒有面對如果同時大量不要說17條斷了10條8條6條你們可能會有一陣混亂是委員跟你報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10859.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10883.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
對這個事情在以去年來講國土辦就辦過兩次的演練演習辦過兩次 我講中華部分還辦過兩次的安全檢查事實上這個過程裡面就是在模擬剛剛委員所講的事情你那個模擬資料如果不涉機密的話我要求我們委員會要看一下你們的提向 SOP什麼的涉及機密我尊重 我們可以機密報告因為這個東西它正在發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10884.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10903.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我們目前的應變的標準作業程序是不足的也許中華電信目前你擁有的capacity你的擁有的能力也不足的這個要檢視國會要監督這一塊我相信國安會也應該要去監督這一塊那我請教海軍署副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10905.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10934.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這一次的事件你們多久接到通知從斷掉中華電信斷連時間已經出來了嘛他斷掉到你們接到通知多久?各位公民報告1月3號12點40分接到中華電信通報通報內容是7點45分野柳東北方11點3海浬發生斷纜所以已經將近快5個小時我們接到通報之後我們要回放雷達航機要研判哪些可遇船舶然後鎖定一艘船舶之後我們馬上派艇過去所以我請教副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10935.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10960.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
10分鐘之內告訴你跟5個小時以後告訴你你們處理會不會有所不同這個上司破案第一先機後續會很辛苦因為你只能靠航機好像是那一艘他走得很奇怪他就跟你講我的車業壞掉了所以在那邊亂繞我們是派艇全速去攔查5個小時你們那算幾節的你不如派我們戰鬥機去飛還比較快我的意思是說你現在看到7點45段 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10964.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10970.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
12點40分海巡才接到通知這命案的話血都乾了 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10972.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10995.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以這有問題跟委員報告我們在1月6號海外會召開跨部會議其中通報機制包括政府整個通報機制當初陳副委員剛才講的連國防部也沒有通報所以我們現在要把他沒有收到通報我們現在包括跟國防部開會我們第一時間接到中華電信通報我們先對離島的台底電纜是國防部有在用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10996.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11011.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
然後他沒有被通報他連敵人在哪裡都不知道可是你剛才有沒有聽清楚其實中華電視系有能力我就抓寬一點有能力在25分鐘之內知道大概是在哪個位置斷結果你是5個小時以後才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11012.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11037.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這一定要改進啦 這不改進怎麼行呢那我再請教你 我如果25分鐘之內告訴你你的船開過去 當然你們現在沒有空中兵力嘛那這是屬於警察業務 也就是海巡的業務我們也不適合動用國軍的兵力所以我這邊具體建議美國的海巡有空中的能量日本的海巡也有空中的能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11038.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11065.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我們台灣的海巡目前是沒有空中的能量以海巡署副署長的身份我請教你你認為台灣現在因應灰色地帶衝突越來越多灰色地帶衝突就是介於軍跟民之間所以我們常常是海巡署做前面海軍做後盾可是你們現在不管是抽砂船或者是大量的水上民兵的漁船的環繞或者像這種脫斷海底電纜掛第三國的權益輪你們的船艦 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11069.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11097.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
過去事實上時間會相當長哪怕你全速30節在開都要相當長你認為海巡署該不該建置空中兵力空中能量當然會徵收能力當然比艦艇快又廣那我們現在就是我們想方設法在提升海巡的包括水面跟空中能量所以現在逐步推動無人機那依照我們的政策行政院政策我們先推動無人機我們不斷的在引進新的未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11098.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11120.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
而且無人機不是所有事情的答案我最後一句話問蔡局長這個問題我私下問過某些律師我們就算在公海攔到現行犯在公海攔到可疑的犯嫌我們能執法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11122.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11149.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
涉及到一些溝通聯繫的過程因為我現在在公海上我懷疑這艘輪破壞我們海底電纜然後他拼命跑我們的海巡或者我們海軍能夠在公法執行嗎對管轄權有點疑義管轄權會有問題所以我們今天講了那麼多確定了疑犯確定了破壞位置確定了犯刑地點如果在公海怎麼辦現在沒有答案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11150.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11160.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
對不對他在公海進行這種類似切斷或者類似灰色地帶甚至類似侵略的行為我們現在在公海上執法的法律依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11161.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11188.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對 有點問題那可能要由那艘船的傳奇國來進行相關的司法偵查柯麥隆哪會理你啊對啊 你懂我意思嗎柯麥隆 你要等他跑到哪個港口看那個港口的國家要不要處理這就慢了嘛所以這一塊法律上執法的部分可能要跟友盟溝通這一塊其實才是大問題縱使我們提升了空中能量我們提升了警告的SOP我們第一時間反應第一時間就掌握到哪一艘船做的壞事在公海上 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11189.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11205.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
你根本什麼都不能做那怎麼辦這個題目問號我留給國安局我希望下一次我從你這邊得到答案好不好好謝謝謝謝王定理委員局長請回接下來我們請侯孟凱委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11217.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11224.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
主席謝謝 麻煩請我們蔡明彥局長跟陸委會省副主委請局長和副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11228.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11251.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
好 局長國安非常重要我們一起努力捍衛中華民國的安全那今天早上很多委員也都有關心本席之前也看到就說有網紅就講是說在台灣地區台中跟新北居然可以辦中國大陸的身份證 拘留證有沒有看到這個新聞有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11253.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11274.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
查出來了沒?在新北跟台中有哪裡?都有掌握在哪邊?不只這兩個地方,還有其他地方還有其他地方,還有包括哪些?還有包括雲林跟高雄那有沒有請執法單位去偵辦?有,我們在掌握相關的情資之後,我們會做一些確認那相關的修正比較完整,我們會通報到要掌握多久?那到底在新北已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11275.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11302.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
新北是本席的選區本席的縣市我們沒有辦法接受說這些人是哪邊來的是中國大陸的人士還是台灣人士在那邊辦理的目前的案情看起來主要都還是國人台灣的人士有的甚至在網路上有一些推宣這樣的相關的申辦中國政見的一些宣傳活動那這些是合法的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11303.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11315.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
當然沒有 他有可能會...當然是非法吧 是吧那有觸犯我國相關法令那到目前我們國安單位還在掌握都掌握 已經都掌握了是啊 但我現在想說多久時間了 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11317.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11339.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
大概存在多久如果說沒有這個網紅告訴我們我們可能都還不知道但是國安局跟我們講說有掌握所以我想請教你們掌握多久了大概是在前一陣子這個議題出來之後我們有做一個比較全面的所以你們是在網紅告訴我們說原來新北跟台中有這樣之後國安局才動起來去掌握還是網紅講之前你們就已經知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11340.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11344.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
對於中共在台灣的一些違法的活動我覺得這很重要但你不能迴避我的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11348.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11372.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我現在講的是說是網紅告訴我們因為以往我們都認為說至少我們台灣本土是安全的不可能有人突然間中國大陸還可以來我們這邊設辦事處還可以來這邊來辦身份證還有網紅委員聳聽講說有20萬的國人都已經有拿到中國大陸的身份證如果真的是屬實的話我們沒有辦法接受啊那一樣的道理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11374.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11387.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
如果有20萬人那就代表是說他存在的時間已經有一段了那我們國安單位在幹什麼要跟委員說明一下我們居然放任他在新北台中還有你剛剛講雲林是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11388.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11416.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
還有哪邊有一些地方都有看到這樣的一個狀況那跟委員說明一下我們情報單位來講有這個情資我們必須要做比較詳細的一個確認是嗎所以我現在請教的到底是那沒有的話情資非常的多非常非常的多局長所以你還是沒有回答我的嗎有我在回答的是你不要迴避我的問題我現在這樣請教的是說那到底我們掌握的是就如同你剛剛講原來不只新北不只台中還有其他縣市那我們現在偵辦的狀況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11419.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11433.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
第一時間我們在有這個情資之後我們必須要做一些確認這是我一直在跟委員說明的否則情資非常非常的多那一旦有比較確認的情資我們當然就會也送到檢調單位那有的已經都有跟調查局這邊在做一些討論所以什麼時候會破獲 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11436.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11463.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這可以講吧?什麼時候可以破貨?什麼時候可以查地?要尊重司法機關後續查辦的狀況你不是講說這是個非法的機關嗎?當然就非法機關你現在還可以放任他國家安全情報機關我們沒有辦法去指揮司法警察單位正辦的過程或速度我現在講的是說我們難道到底他來多久時間我們難道可以放任他我不知道是長達半年一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11464.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11485.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
那我們難道可以放任他半年一年在做非法的工作這沒有違反國安法沒有 因為你要注意到的是他在所謂宣導或是要去推宣辦理中國大陸的政見他在網路上的用語是什麼有沒有違反到我們相關的法律的規定那你必須要有這樣的比較具體的證據你才有辦法來啟動檢調單位的調查那這也是為什麼我們有個情資處理的過程否則委員剛剛所提到的資訊我知道委員是 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11492.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11498.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
提到很多資訊這些資訊非常的高網紅講的信誓旦旦是說到那邊還可以直接辦理耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11499.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11527.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
對 那我們尊重網紅他反映的意見但這不是對於我們來講可以辦案的不是 我們所以我們國安單位來這樣子啦 局長我比較直接請教國安單位掌握的狀況是比網紅講的還要嚴重還是要輕微看哪一部分那就所謂的國人申辦對案的身份證的部分來講的話二十萬人是太誇張了我們目前掌握的案例已經都移送到內政部來做處理所以我們現在移送了幾案 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11528.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11547.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
都已經移送了有十幾案所以不是二十萬是十幾個是不是我們掌握的有十幾案那調查局也有掌握一些案例那國安局跟調查局都已經有通報到相關的單位所以其實不要局長拜託啦不要說連在國會殿堂裡面有一說一有二說二啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11548.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11558.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
不要說這個網紅是跟可能跟我們執政黨這比較親近的連網紅講這麼嚴重渲染的事情也不敢反駁我們剛剛已經有說要把網紅的資訊要做過濾我請教一下那另外今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11563.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11591.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
感謝趙偉排這個案件海底電纜的部分本席很關心我也不認為是說如果發生斷纜的話那其實很嚴重是依國安局報告是每年平均七到八次對那到那麼多次的一個毀損剛剛也有委員在詢問就是說如果說是在公海的話我們是比較沒有執法的一個管轄範圍那即便是在我們的領海的部分我們到目前為止一年平均七到八次近三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11592.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11612.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我就算一下,這是你的數字啊,二十四、五次,是不是?有,應該有。好,二十四、五次。那我們有要求找出兇手,並且要求賠償,有幾次?有,這部分我看剛剛的海巡署跟中華電信都有提供一些數據跟資料,我是不是請那個海巡署詳細跟委員報告一下。來,簡單說明一下好不好。我們要求賠償幾次? |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11614.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11642.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
我們收到現在有數據的話已經有求償成功就兩次舉例在一百一十年七月二十四號四十三共和國五順輪那破案海底電檔我們掏銀件登檢帶案回來那中華電信相關電話移給中華電信成功求償八百一十萬好有上案的那另外呢另外的話我們有進三年國安局講說平均每年七到八次就是進三年二十四五次那這二十四五次裡面我們有求償幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11645.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11652.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
有的收信之後後續陸續在求償中還沒有定案現在告訴我說我們求償來 為什麼我會問這個問題局長 還是一樣嘛你們今天的報告告訴我們其實兇手都已經找到了就萬惡的中共啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11668.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11688.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
不是嗎 你們每一個都講是萬惡的中共 中共移招中共拖網漁船作業損毀移招中共貨輪下茅作業損毀啊既然兇手找到了 為什麼不敢跟他求償對 這部分來講沒有提出半次耶 二十四五次是你講的結果你到目前為止有提半次嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11689.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11714.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
在國際跟國內海南只要遭到損毀的話那相關的數據統計我們顯示的是多數都是由中共的傳播來造成的影響那我知道說中共的傳播我沒有辦法接受今天是中共的傳播今天是任何國家的傳播只要破壞我國的海底電纜是我國的財產嘛不管是中華電線的財產不管是它也是我國財產那我們來協助來做球場或是我們來協助要求追回元兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11715.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11743.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
結果咧到目前為止沒有辦事啊這應該尊重我們的相關電信公司這不是尊重我們相關的你已經找出兇手了然後結果我們那我請教我們電信公司為什麼沒有求償對我跟你們說明一下第一個這是電信公司的財產那一旦遭到財產的破壞他會由我們的司法機關來做檢舉司法機關才會做查證那過程是這樣陸委會國安局告訴我們是說過去三年二十四五次我就算是二十四次啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11744.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11748.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
24次 然後國安局今天全講了都是萬惡的中共 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11749.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11774.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那我們身為跟中國大陸的一個對口的一個機關啊有沒有透過有沒有找到國安局或說相關單位請你們跟中國大陸講要求求償把我們的海底電纜毀損的修復有沒有我們只有進一步的去跟相關單位了解狀況但是要有具體的事證跟調查結果之後然後可能才能夠透過陸陸回去做溝通他們沒有提供事證給你嗎他今天寫的那麼斬釘截鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11776.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11805.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
就是萬樂的中共啊那怎麼沒有提供給我們大陸委員會去球場現階段來講給大陸委員會去有底氣的去跟對岸拍板啊敢破壞我們的電纜我不允許啊怎麼樣有沒有跟委員報告目前還沒有所以可能相關的這個案件可能有些是在調查中調查癥結調查癥結的這個部分一年平均八次三年二十四次 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11806.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11816.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
那24次我們沒藥沒勁橫向聯繫沒有作為那我覺得副主委你很無辜啦算是無辜啦來 局長來 中華電信 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11819.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11839.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
斷了二十幾次沒有跟人家求償半次海嵐故障原因有很多種除了可能被破壞之壞也有它自己劣化造成的所以次數這麼多不見得每次都是您是中華電信的總經理林總沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11842.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11866.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們今天外交國防委員會開那麼重要的報告我們看到國安局給我們那麼重要的一個書面報告裡面沒有講到海底電纜劣化啊他全都講的是萬樂的中共啊他講的是這一次啊不是他不是講這一次你看一下他講1234四次2022年3月到4月台馬3號被抽砂船作業損毀 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11868.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11883.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
2021年8月台金2號被中共拖網漁船作業損毀這我跟委員說明一下這我們有統計過啦大概國際跟國內海岸段的狀況一半以上都是中國籍船隻比較有可疑啦那有沒有求償 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11884.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11908.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
偵辦過程當中他要是現行犯的話比較容易來求償但大部分的案例他只能夠用疑似你沒有再現行犯來逮捕到他的話後續的事證的查查是比較不容易的即便是公海我們沒有管轄權那有國際法庭啊海洋法有國際法庭可以來去做申訴啊我們有沒有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11911.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11932.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
對,這要由電信商來提起這樣的一個球場的動作有沒有做?有嗎?我們有跟國際法庭不是,沒有國際法庭,但是國際聯盟有去球場那這個確實也有球場成功,案例都有但是剛才有一個條件是必須要有明確的證據那剛才局長也提到,有些事實上沒有明確證據比較難幾位 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11935.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11960.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
大家都是為中華民國來努力啊我今天會點出來這個問題在於兩個部分第一海底電纜很重要我承認我也同意我不容許任何人來破壞我們海底電纜不管是有意無意如果說真的是中共的話該求償要求償該捍衛要捍衛該表達要表達該抗議要抗議但是過去你們有沒有做這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11961.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11982.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
有 剛剛跟委員一直在講沒有 第一個不是 第一個是求償是由企業來求償那就我們國安單位來講我們會去了解一下相關的活動的軌跡那有具體的事情才有辦法再進入司法的動作好 請講你身為國安局局長我認為你掌握情報應該是全國國人最多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11983.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12007.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那你的證據你的資訊應該是最多的所以才會主要來請教您而重點在於是說如果所有破壞應該求償要求償當然如果所有證據應該提供要提供一定要但是剛剛我請教不管是中華電信的領總不管是陸委會看起來都沒有接獲到國安局所今天所提出來的相關資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12008.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12011.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們資料本來就建立在中華電信所提供的資訊不能這樣講我們的資訊完全都建立在中華電信跟我們還有蘇發布通報的一個局長 你剛剛你們的詢答已經漏了線了並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12023.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12040.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
實在話講我們一直在強調的是一定要有事證我實在話講當然就是要有事證啊大部分的案例他大部分都是事後再查證並不是現行犯問題發生在現行犯想要是現行犯的話要來進行相關的查查會比較容易你現在寫的書面報告不是那麼的明確就代表是說他的是現行犯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12043.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12061.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
對 現行犯人當然你比較能夠來進入一個司法程序的一個偵辦跟求查但大部分確實是事後來進行相關的一個資訊我的重點在於是你可以在這邊講那麼大聲我就希望你真的把相關的證據都給不管是我們中華電信不管是我們的陸委會來任何的管道表達我們嚴正的抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12067.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12085.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
而且最重要的是不允許後續還有這樣持續的破壞電纜發生連同這一次連同這一次你說這一次是誰麥卡龍卡麥隆是卡麥隆嘛對不對卡麥隆級的船艦來去做破壞我們的電纜那後續會不會有相關的球場 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12090.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12115.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
已經沒有中華電信已經報案了然後相關海巡署收集的證據也已經跟基隆地點署來進行一些呈現所以還在偵辦過程當中本席身為中華民意代表我就是希望督促我們的行政官員該報案該捍衛我國權益的就一定要把握每一次的機會該上國際法庭上國際法庭這樣可以嗎好我們來努力謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12124.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12126.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
接下來我們請葉元之委員上台質詢請顧立雄部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12151.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12171.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
社委部長好首先感謝部長因為之前教育部他在學校要求發青年服勤同意書搞得家長恐慌後來是部長覺得說發這個東西沒必要所以後來教育部就取消了但我想要問部長因為我們之前在審教育部預算的時候那時候教育部自己講說他們會檢討改進然後他們覺得這個做法是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12174.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12193.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那未來所有的在學校裡面就不會進行編組也不會進行所謂之前要弄那個什麼防護校園防護團以後有關於全民國防的就回歸課程透過課程的方式然後讓學生們了解這些這些觀念跟委員報告我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12194.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12219.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
圈志願同意書跟要在學校要成立自救互救的這樣子的一個防護塔作為是兩件事情我覺得在任何重大災害或者是緊急事況的情況之下學校要成立一個自救互救的防護塔作為還是有必要的但是他們成立的方式就是發那個同意書嘛看大家要不要加入嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12220.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12238.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
但是只要一調查就引起恐慌嘛所以你現在的方式但是同意書的方案在我看起來是沒有什麼太大意義那你覺得要用什麼方式去組這個防務團那本來就是要教導學生要怎麼樣自救護救對嘛 是嘛所以這個跟有沒有防務團是兩回事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12239.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12266.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
所以現在就是因為法律裡面有規定說一定要學校防護團所以學校就一定要做這個事但是有沒有做防護團和教導全民公安概念是兩回事吧對吧因為如果有一個成立自救互救的這樣子的一個組織所以你還是覺得要成立這個組織那他們現在就說沒有要成立因為就成立不起來因為你只要問大家要不要加入就造成恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12268.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12277.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以你理想很豐滿嘛現實很骨感嘛所以部長那你們還是要如果按照你的說法你還是要成立這個防護團那你跟教育部現在就不同調啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12278.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12305.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我想是不是叫防護團我沒有特別意見但是我著重的是在於任何學生都應該要有自救護舅那自救護舅跟全民國防觀念是不是兩回事是嗎沒有 全民國防的這個概念當然是有融合在這個融合在一起但是其實透過課程跟他們灌輸全民國防觀念跟到底有沒有這個團有沒有加入是兩回事嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12307.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12323.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這個團部應該是加入不加入你還是應該都要教導這樣的一個知識跟基礎沒有人說不要教導本來就是要教導啦所以讓學生沒有參加學校防護團跟有沒有削弱國防是兩回事嘛你們今天國防也不是靠學生去打仗吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12324.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12336.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
沒有要選對嘛所以我覺得部長我覺得大家現在你們現在都一直在搞認知作戰好像什麼沒有加入學校防務團就是削弱國防講的一副就是要學生去打仗的樣子我希望部長作為我們國軍的最高統 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12339.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12364.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
國軍的國防部長還是要對外去講不要自己人嚇自己人好像學生沒上戰場國防就要廢掉一下現在社會上太多這種不實訊息了有機會還要去澄清一下然後再來我想請教一下因為今天我們講的是電纜之前有很多研究包括你們國防部自己的研究都講說我們應該要有自己的電纜的修復的船隻為什麼呢因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12366.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12380.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
如果說我們現在修復的話都是要叫國外的船那第一個就是要拜託他們然後還要排時間那來的時間如果受到什麼海象啊什麼的影響的話更會拖嘛那所以因此之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12381.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12395.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
國防部自己做出來的研究國防安全研究院做出來的研究都說應該用國家資源維持一到兩艘我們自己的海嵐的舖修船那我不知道國防部現在的規劃是怎樣還是後來你們評估覺得沒有必要做這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12397.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12412.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我想國防部本身就這個要從事這個我們製造的這個海嵐在被破壞的情況下建立這樣子的一個補修不在我們現在的建軍的規劃裡面原因是什麼因為這樣有評估過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12417.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12445.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我的理解 其實對川普的理解是在國安會的時期的理解因為我們認為在這個部分的能量的一個建置還是需要他靠國際上面的一個來協情國際來做就應該就可以了其他詳細的部分你通知教委沒有 你講一下你們的評估的過程因為這個也是你們自己提供的報告然後國際上有些國家都有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12446.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12450.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那所以我們我們自己後來決定不做這件事情的原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12451.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12479.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我是通知市的市長在那裡那因為針對這個電纜的部分不是屬於我們國防部的不是我們國防部自己建置的所以我們沒有需要修護的這個能量那這個東西的主則是在外交部是屬於中華電信的那跟我們軍方的是沒有直接關係交通部的OK好然後再來中華電信就我了解他們有做過一些評估但是因為這個國防安全研究院的報告嘛那是國防部嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12479.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12506.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
所以國防部如果認為有必要 國安局是我們國防部的智庫不是我們國防部本身的我知道 你們智庫有提出這樣的訴求那所以國防部如果認為有必要當然可以去跟交通部討論要不要做這件事情嘛所以我現在只是問說部長你覺得有沒有必要嘛我是不是請中華電信是不是能夠說因為我記得當時是有做過一些評估那中華電信有做了一個是不是檢要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12509.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12537.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
跟委員報告以現在亞洲的情形來講有橫濱有東南部兩區的維修船但是這些維修船都不是一個國家的都是很多國家合在一起做為什麼呢因為這個成本非常高除了建置成本還有維護成本所以都是用組成一個聯盟大家來排這是目前我們看到的那目前這樣我們去比如說我們請他們來修復都很順暢就對了也不會延誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12538.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12564.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
要排隊就如我們剛才所講因為這個成本非常高所以大家會用排隊那排隊的方式剛才談到一般來講就是會有一個協調如果真的有緊急狀況那我們的同仁也扮演那個聯盟的主席某些海產主席所以在裡面我們也會努力爭取在排序的時候盡量往前盡量往前但是因為它真的很龐大所以剛才談到以這兩區來講都是多國合作而不是單一個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12565.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12571.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
OK 好 謝謝再來我再請教部長因為大家都知道說我們現在國防還有另外一個問題就是我們國軍的邊線筆的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12573.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12595.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那根據國防部自己的資料都顯示說到2024年我們提前退伍的國軍人數已經到1565人那增加的幅度非常多那部長我看到你們國防部對外講的理由都是說薪資問題嘛因為國際就是社會上面其他企業的薪資待遇會比我們職業聚能高很多嘛是這樣沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12596.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12612.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
先是在於就我們的調查來講佔的比例大概是63%點多啦那另外當然也涉及到一些家庭因素等等那現在因為在少子化的影響之下那經濟狀況也不錯所以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12615.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12632.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
招募的人才呢會比較不容易確實是那怎麼去解決這個問題因為我當然我有跟有一些職業軍人提早退伍的人聊過他們講說現在7-11的平均薪資都比他們高了我們已經提出這個有資料有但是還是不夠嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12633.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12655.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
我們已經提出待遇調整的方案了我知道這個我曉得但是我有問過他們還是不太夠第二個是他們也講說有一些人是當初國軍在招募他們的時候跟他們講的一套跟他們進去之後他們實際上發現一套是兩回事就感覺有被騙了舉例來講會跟他們講說這個都可以正常上下班 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12656.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12671.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
然後但實際上進去之後常常就出任務更不可能是就我是建議說我們在招募這些職業軍人的時候當然我知道軍人一般的軍人跟我們一般的人是不太一樣嘛工作型態一定是不太一樣但是一定要跟他們講清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12672.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12699.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
不要讓大家覺得說好像有招募前跟進去之後有不一樣的狀況嘛會產生這樣心理上的落差我不知道部長你有沒有掌握到類似的情形有沒有是 我們一定會加強招募人才的時候的一個詳實的一個說明我想這是應該有必要的那薪資你目前是有分階段的調漲嗎還是大概就是先調漲這一波然後之後再看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12699.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12719.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
我們會大致上方向就是說志願役本身會有一定的調漲那另外主戰部隊就是說比較基層的部隊增加的幅度會比較多一些你有定一個目標出來嗎我們已經提出一個具體的方案了我說目標啦因為說實在的這個邊線筆就是軍中能力不足是一個老議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12724.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12739.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
已經每一年大家都在講這個事情那你有沒有定一個目標出來說比如說到明年我們的邊線比可以達到多少然後我們軍中的流財率可以到多少不會讓他的提早退伍的人不斷的流失 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12740.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12755.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
有沒有訂一個目標出來我想這是我們因為如果你沒有訂目標出來的話你就是且戰且走嘛我加一點錢看看狀況怎麼樣感覺在測風向但是國安問題是不能夠這樣子那麼隨便嘛所以部長你有沒有訂一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12757.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12774.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
對 我們現在主要的目標應該是說我們要拉高這個主戰部隊的邊線比大概多少 到多少因為現在還不到百分之八十有一些部分那我們希望當然朝向於目標朝向百分之八十的這樣的目標只朝 百分之八十夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12775.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12790.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
因為主戰部隊在很多地方的邊線還要比80還要來的低所以你現在目標是先到80幾年內要到80我們待調整方案出來之後我們逐步朝向這個來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12790.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12819.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
你總是要一個目標大家來達成才能夠來檢驗嘛我們跟委員報告每一年不管是招募、留營我們都會定一個目標我們是當年的這個打比方我舉個例子當年的這個畢業的學生的人數啦還有可以可服役的藝男那我們都會定一個目標比如說我們希望這個主戰部隊他能夠達到75%的留營率我們的招募目標他可以達到我們所設定目標的百分之百、百分之九十我們都會定一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12820.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12843.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
請問一下今年目標是什麼?我現在詳細處理沒帶來,如果下去的話我願意給委員參考你要把目標講出來,大家明年才來看嘛你提高待遇到底有沒有用嘛你有沒有對症下藥嘛因為我剛剛講這是一個老議題每一年大家都在講的東西但是一直沒有辦法解決跟改善而且實際上你們目標定的也不是說很高啦你只是到80而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12844.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12861.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
也不是很高啊80是我們通生的一個講法那剛剛陸長士講的意思是說我們對每一個單位應該都對於流言率也好招募人才的招募進來之後的一個變現比會有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12862.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12878.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
個別的一個目標都來努力這樣每年都有在訂就對了那今年是今年的因為你都回答得很抽象所以我那個詳細的每一個部分我們會後再提供給委員這樣好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝葉元之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12886.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12891.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
羅志強委員 羅志強 羅志強委員不在接下來我們請馬文居委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局長 國防部長中華電信還有海巡署 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12913.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12922.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
社委 早安部長我想今天主要的議題是討論我們這個海底電纜被破壞的這個事情那剛剛也聽到非常多的委員在垂詢可是我們現在從兩個面向來看第一個就是從報告裡面或者剛剛的詢答裡面其實可以很清楚的知道我們海底電纜被破壞或者有損壞的這個狀況其實不是第一次發生可是這一次為什麼放大這麼大 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12944.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12955.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
來讓他們能鑑度一個擴散的作用因為第一我們沒有直接抓到第二也沒有直接當現行犯就把它做處置然後現在說我們現在被破壞這顯然好像讓大家覺得說灰色地帶這個部分現在是非常嚴重可是事實上灰色地帶或者像在我們的海面上 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12972.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13001.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
繁星點點就我們所有漁船其實這個是已經是常態了尤其它越界的狀況從我們金馬裁軍以後其實已經是常態就像我們常常會看到因為前陣子發生的狀況這個距離是不是最近我們不曉得按照媒體的報導它是在七海里其實甚至在我們的淚水裡面雖然我們是說11點多啦可是事實上還是在我們的臨海裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13002.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13018.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
有 我們可以想像 今天如果有一個我們在家裡發生竊案可能疑似竊案 然後有小偷進來然後有很奇怪的一個作為 可是我們就讓他跑了然後到最後才發現我們真的丟了東西那這樣的一個處置作為 是我們應該有的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13027.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13050.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那現在我們在後面檢討這些做法的目的到底是什麼這是我們特別要說的第一個面向因為像我們看到很多之前有很多甚至上岸了他坐著那個小艇就直接上我們台灣的本土然後還有像我們看到有過去非常多的不管是玉石、茶壺、黃魚等等其實那個都是在海上交接交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13052.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13063.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那這些其實都已經是由來已久可是我們這個案子特別把它放大這是我們今天特別要問的因為像這麼多的漁船我們老實說抓都抓不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13064.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13068.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
你現在只能透過他如果比較詭異的這樣子的一個作為或者航機或者他的路線或者他在做什麼我們不曉得其實你都應該要馬上積極去因應可是剛剛海巡接到訊息的時候好像五個小時以後了所以這是第一個我們不希望利用這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13086.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13090.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
他雖然是已經發生了我們說我們最後要跟國際合作如果像我們這樣作為等到他去韓國我們要請韓國幫我們查那誰要跟我們合作你自己都沒有能力可以做好了在我們自己這裡你今天剛剛我說的家裡找小偷你會報警 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13106.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13118.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那警力來發現說我不足的時候你可能還會再有其他的呼叫更多的警力來支援啊你像我們海巡出去的時候你說他太大海象不好然後你也沒有找海軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13122.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13139.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
內海軍沒有辦法作為的時候就讓他跑了就讓他按照既定的今天如果通知海軍我們的軍艦過來至少可以遲滯或者把他滯留或者影響他的既定的進程這些我們都沒有做你到現在才檢討說我們要跟國際合作而且還叫韓國去查韓國為什麼要幫我們查你自己都沒有做了所以就這些我們的戰術作為我覺得是一個很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13151.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13170.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
舉例來說像去年歐洲波羅的海其實也發生過類似的狀況中國籍的貨輪其實也破壞了他們的海底電纜他們馬上集結周邊的國家像瑞典還有德國他們馬上去調查而且強勢登船檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13173.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13185.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我們的陸委會這時候功能就來了今天如果他有可能被破壞或者他違法的行為你們就應該叫陸委會據理力爭啊到現在我們看不到我們在這裡討論可是船咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13189.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13213.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
而且你們海巡署也有無人機喔現在大家說無人機多重要要買的時候預算編了一大堆海巡署也有無人機而且你們去看看你們公告的你們無人機的能力多強結果你們當時有做無人機蒐證嗎我剛剛舉例的歐洲的那個例子他就是除了登船檢查他在過程當中他也用無人機去做蒐證我們的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13216.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13242.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
海軍也有啊國防部也有啊這些我們都有你們過去買了那麼多的武器裝備可是每次發生的時候都沒有用就像說那個之前中共的那個到底他是什麼身份不曉得他跑到我們台灣的本土上面我們說雷達測不到那我們買那麼多的東西那我們到底可以做什麼這是第一點第二個就是我們的戰術作為剛剛有提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13246.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13269.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
這個戰術作為的部分像我們應該是不是應該要登船檢查像他已經破壞我們這個海底電纜中華電信剛剛提到說會通報國土辦還有速發布這兩個單位其實都剛成立不久那你們之前呢之前如果發生被破壞的時候你們是怎麼處置的 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13272.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13280.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
你在那裡回答,沒有辦法聽到在速發部之前是通傳會所以你通知了速發部,結果呢?結果呢?因為五個小時以後海巡才過去嘛你通知了速發部以後,結果呢?這一次就是把這個聯繫的方式再加強、再強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13298.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13323.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
聯繫的方式在強化對,跟委員報告就是說大家有做過一個跨部會的一個協調那現在就是說就我們海軍的部分的話我們會有一個重點海域的監視區就是說海軍的雷達站如果發現這個現在就海欄的布設的這個海域的周遭它如果有可疑的船舶來滯留下錨 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13325.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13348.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
或者有一個可疑的航跡的時候我們就這個部分利用觀衆雷達加強監控掌握這個水邊的目標以及識別之後我們會立即回報我們的艦隊作案中心跟我們的JOCC那我們同時會回報給海巡的侵蝕中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13348.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13353.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
然後來加強修正這個部分當然是我們現在用口頭敘述或書面或者理想化因為這個本來就有了現在我們雷達可以徵收我剛剛講的海面上繁星點點尤其是全宜船或者像一個正統登記的貨輪其實它並不是在我們徵收的範圍現在是說它已經距離非常近已經到我們的臨海裡面甚至在我們的內水裡面而且它有詭異的航機我們沒有作為這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13379.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13392.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們應該要有什麼樣的一個處置剛剛我們提到所以剛剛部長你有提到你說我們的雷達是可以偵測這一些可是我們在之前發生的那些事件的時候我們都說我們雷達沒有辦法偵測比較這個貨輪當然是大啦我們海巡過去的時候沒有辦法靠近 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13399.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13404.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
理由是什麼?他說海象不好那我們台灣平常海象就是這麼不好啊那你就變成無能為力了所以我才說當他們他的海巡艇過去太小的時候你就必須要我們海軍的艦艇過去去干擾他們嘛你的戰術作為應該是這些啊我們剛剛說的那些徵收你們在買無人機的時候都告訴我們說這些無人機都可以做到可是我們這一次無人機完全派不上用場 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13428.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13436.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
也沒有出去這是第一點第二個我們現在想要說的是如果未來類似發生這樣的狀況我們應該要有強勢的作為今天如果有任何一個國家包括對岸中國大陸的不管什麼樣的船他已經進到我們的臨海進到我們的內水而且可能有不知不知可能有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13450.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13465.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
可能破壞行為的時候我們本來就要強勢你今天在我們這裡發聲你都不做了你要跟國際合作誰要幫我們這是第二點第三中華電信是一個民營的公司今天如果像它的海底電纜壞掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13467.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13469.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
他不知道是什麼原因沒有把他的電訊中斷他可以馬上指揮或者要我們的公部門比如說我們的海巡組比如說我們的速發部比如說你的國土辦或者甚至國防部去做什麼事嗎就是因為我們當初把這個民營化了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13485.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13489.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這麼重要的關鍵基礎設施我們為什麼很多都說之前都說應該要供應因為這樣我們可以完全掌控那你現在沒有那如果像中華電信發生這樣的事情的時候我們公部門的資源怎麼有辦法隨便就可以去幫他解決這樣的問題這個可能也是後續要思考的因為如果發生在我們的領海範圍之內我們有當然的管轄權 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13510.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13531.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那這個時候海軍的部分是應海巡署的需求那如果海巡署可以過去處理那就當然處理如果海巡署覺得需要這個減派兵力的話我們就由艦隊作案中心來減派兵力前往測驗部長我知道啦可是你說的這個就像打架的時候被打得要死然後報警結果警察來人家跑了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13532.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13556.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
現在我們現在就是發生這樣的狀況所以你必須要改變的是這個部分而不是剛剛說的念的那一部分因為那個本來就有可是我們每次發生的時候不斷不斷的在檢討我們每次在這裡都是在檢討這些所以今天我們特別提出來不是說它發生的事情到底怎麼樣而是你的戰術作為是什麼你現在如果要把它定位為這是灰色地帶的侵擾那你所有相關的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13557.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13570.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
所有應該要提高警覺的這些相關的單位本來就應該要提高警覺應該怎麼樣就怎麼樣該法就法 該滯留就滯留今天我們一直說要展現給國外看剛剛有委員在問潛艦我們要展現給國外看國防預算是發揮戰力獲得戰力保衛國家的一個重要的預算而不是要維持船長 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13584.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13590.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
或者要展現給別人看我覺得我們的重要的預算支出應該是要用在這裡就一樣的今天如果我們要展現給國外說要協助我們一起打擊犯罪那我們就要有積極的作為你自己都沒有去查都沒有去滯留都沒有去蒐證那你要叫別人幫我們做也不可能所以這個部分我們特別提出來另外在 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13610.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13614.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這在另外的部分就是說我想用一點點時間請教部長因為在那個國軍專業兵科化學兵是我們的專業軍種那我們這一次好像也配合衛福部環境部編了3.6億的這個預算可是我覺得最不可思議而且非常可 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13635.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13663.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
就是有一個特別的我覺得可能這個對我們是一個很大的恥辱為什麼環境部規劃這個全案各部會工作任務的時候他的專家評估他說國防部的化學兵部隊編制的偵檢防護以及消除裝備無法完全滿足災害防救法有關資源毒性及關注化學物質災害防救任務所需 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13664.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13682.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
國防部年年的預算都創新高而且就現在環境部要買的這些東西幾年前國防部也買過了我們大量購置這些高大上的先進武器買的時候都跟我們說非常好非常先進而且都可以發揮它的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13683.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13686.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
甚至在疫情發生的時候這麼嚴重的傳染病我們的化學兵也到處去消毒然後到處去噴灑然後到處去做防護現在環境部要編這樣的預算的時候他說我們的化學兵我們的裝備這些是不符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13702.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13723.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
這些需求的這樣是大大的打臉我們國防部而且衛福部的人才或相關的他們的訓練會比我們國防部的化學兵還好嗎就這個部分我們請國防部我們請部長是不是就這個部分就可以再去檢討或者提出更具體的說明為什麼是他們買 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13724.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13740.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
是,化學兵的編制的部分還有這個在因應災害防救的有關資源、毒性及關注化學物質災害防救任務的這個部分有關所必須要的一些能量,我們會再跟環境部來做一個協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13741.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13754.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我看過環境部買的東西啊那都是我們國防部之前都買過的啦那他到底有沒有比我們更好不知道那誰要去操作不知道我們的化學兵已經是我們國內最訓練最有數而且他是特別的軍種再次強調如果連環境部都看不起我們化學兵那我們過去買的這些武器裝備到底是對誰交代這個部分請部長再去了解一下然後提供給我們更具體的一個說明好不好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13773.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13800.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
謝謝馬文君委員部長局長請回王宏威王宏威王宏威委員不在已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃婕委員羅志強委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13802.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13824.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者疫情相關單位於書面兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期所定本席另外針對今日的議題並作如下的宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13826.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13854.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
針對剛剛陳永康委員質詢所建議的事項請今天出席的各部會尤其是國安局應針對海底電纜遭破壞的事件依據國際法及聯合國海洋法公約於三個月內召開跨部會協商會議邀請相關部會國家安全局國防部大陸委員會國家通訊傳播委員會交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13855.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13868.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署共同建立機制並運用共同圖像之電子綜合圖資包括海底圖、海覽圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13870.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13884.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
領海基線建置平台分享情報以應對處理類似案件並將相關的協商會議結論提供書面報告送交外交國防委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13886.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13902.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
如果有需要由行政院或國安會負責統籌召開會議請國安局負責溝通協調此外 針對聯外海底電纜的周遭傳之國防部 國安會 國安局等單位應該要預先 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13904.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13925.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
及時掌握並依國際法定定執法與監管規範透過監控系統管理與監控海底電纜周遭水域的安全第三國商船通過領海雖享有無害通過權無需申請但必須迅速脫離我領海區本日會議到此結束 散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13943.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13943.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
烤鱼 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13956.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13957.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
謝謝觀看,下次見! |