| IVOD_ID |
16465 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16465 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-2-15,36-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-13T08:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-13T15:34:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
07:04:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea9b825f179b61be319b5fa2f296a9353418d20170ff19eea610109a8d775d0c155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等20人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:29:59 - 15:34:00 |
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2710.887 |
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2717.652 |
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請主任秘書報告出席人數報告聯席會出席委員15人已足法定人數現在開會我們進行討論事項請宣讀 |
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2725.337 |
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2751.16 |
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1.继续审查委员赖世宝等20人拟据地方制度法第7条之1条文修正草案2.继续审查委员陈玉珍等18人拟据地方制度法增订第7条之4条文草案3.审查委员吴丽华等17人拟据地方制度法第83条之3条文修正草案4.审查委员吴丽华等16人拟据地方制度法第52条及第61条条文修正草案5.审查委员苏清泉等27人拟据 |
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2751.6 |
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2771.341 |
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地方制度法第33条条文修正草案6审查委员陈云珍等18人拟据地方制度法第56条条文修正草案7审查委员李坤诚等20人拟据地方制度法第78条条文修正草案8审查委员李燕秀等16人拟据地方制度法第55条及第56条条文修正草案 |
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2772.102 |
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2795.545 |
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9.审查委员高金素梅等18人拟据地方制度法第83条之3条文修正草案10.审查委员鲁明哲等16人拟据地方制度法第7条之1条文修正草案11.审查委员徐巧兴等21人拟据地方制度法第55条条文修正草案12.审查委员卢宪一等18人拟据地方制度法部分条文修正草案宣读完毕 |
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2798.114 |
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2826.254 |
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好本日議程所列討論事項合併詢答首先介紹在場的委員以及列席的官員那我們首先介紹張志倫委員盧憲一委員李燕秀委員高金素梅委員張宏祿召委蘇巧慧委員 |
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2828.547 |
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2853.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
王美惠委員李柏毅委員黃婕委員伍麗華委員吳祁銘委員接著介紹在場我們列席的官員內政部長劉部長釋芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2857.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2876.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
原住民委員會副主任委員鍾新華副主委財政部次長阮次長清華權序部法規司副司長鄭淑芬副司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2878.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2899.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
法務部參事廖江縣廖參事還有國發會國土區域離島發展處參事呂登元呂參事行政院人事行政總處主編人力處的張專門委員雅惠行政院主計總處公務預算處李專門委員易柔好 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2908.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2914.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
接著我們請提案委員說明提案要旨我們依據到達會場的順序來邀請首先請盧憲毅委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2925.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2948.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
柳部長各位在場的官員在媒體記者大家早安本席見103年12月25號直轄市轄內六個三地原住民區也就是新北市烏來區桃園市復興區台中市和平區高雄市納馬納馬下區茂林區及桃園桃園區恢復地方自治團體公法人地位後 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2948.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2971.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
三地原住民区也成为我国地方自治史上的创举当初地方制度法修法的时候恢复其公法人身份也是维护我国原住民主自治权益保障原乡居民的参政权益体现中华民国宪法及宪法征修条文第十条第十二项及原住民主基本法第四条政府因依 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2972.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2993.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
原住民主意愿保障原住民主制平等地位及自主发展实行原住民主制制中关于扶持及保障原住民主制制及相关福利的意旨但是从民国103年三地原住民区恢复公法人地位到现在已经十年的时间自由裁员税务情况已改制前 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2995.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
3006.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
其實並未有大幅增長反倒是更仰賴直轄市政府依照地方制度法第83條之7所設的補助以及透過提案向直轄市及中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
3007.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
3034.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
政府各機關爭取計劃性競爭性的經費補助後才能夠勉強維持區內政務的推動六個山地原住民區的財政明顯受制於直轄市政府所以有時可能因為政治立場擋派及選舉的恩怨導致各原住民區區長在爭取地方建設經費的時候常因人涉事最主要的原因就是山地原住民區的自治事項中 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
3035.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
3049.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
原屬改之前三地鄉的稅捐及公共債務等財務權利並未加以恢復卻無法准用財政收支劃分法關於鄉鎮市等相關規定每年直轄市政府設 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
3050.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
3067.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
涉算的撥補收入勉強為此人士及一般行政支出外許多施政與建設受制於直轄市政府受限於三地原住民區的財政窘迫使區務推展受阻,喪失區政的自主性 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
3069.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
3088.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
影響原鄉發展 故本席上任後台中市和平區的五萬伏區長高雄市那馬下區的孔賢傑區長茂林區的前區長宋仁正均告知本席這個十年來的長久問題故本席在今天提出制度法的修正 以上說明 謝謝好 接著我們請武力華委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
3105.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
3131.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
謝謝主席大家早安今天地制法的修法審查呢本席提出了兩個部分的修正草案來做這個說明第一個部分呢是第52條及第61條的修正草案也就是說希望把民代議員直轄市跟縣市的議員以及鄉鎮市民代表地方民代 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
3132.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
3157.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
還有我們的村里長能夠比照我們的縣市長鄉鎮市長這些地方首長給予因公死亡的撫恤我特別說明是因公死亡的撫恤給予遺族撫恤金那也希望配合修正就是撫恤金的知己另以法律定之因為同為 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
3159.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
3177.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們選舉出來的而且是廣泛的公職人員我們希望說這個不公的現象能夠透過修法來去擬平那第二個部分呢是第83條之3的修正草案我從上一屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
3178.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
3199.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
也在這一屆的第一會期開始呢就直轄市原住民山地區他在2010年以及2014年六都升格之後有六個原鄉變成原區但是他們曾經一度喪失了地方自治公法人的資格那雖然在2014年呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
3201.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
3226.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
把这个透过地制法把它修正回来回复了山地原住民区的自治权可是当时修法的疏漏没有在第二项同步修正使得山地原住民区的裁员没有税捐以及公共债的收入跟现在一般的原住民乡镇的公法人并不一样 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
3227.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
3246.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以呢特別在這個地方希望能夠彌補當時修法的疏漏所以我特別也在財政收支劃分法去做一併的一個修正那要特別說明的是因為我們的財化法修正剛剛三讀通過對原鄉以及園區其實又造成了更大的一個衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
3254.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
3271.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
過去我們以高雄市桃園區來說他現在升格之後他的稅客收入驟降為零他有八成以上要仰賴中央的補助那麼現在財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
3272.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
3290.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
更容易把它变成是财政孤儿因为过去不论是原乡或原区大多都要仰赖我们的中央补助但是呢在财政收支划分法之后造成很大的冲击就是过去是爹不疼娘不爱 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
3291.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3295.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那爺爺來幫助他可是現在爺爺會說錢已經給你的爹娘了請找爹娘要所以呢我們會形同變成財政孤兒所以呢在這個部分特別特別的希望來呼籲 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3308.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3323.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
大家一同來支持我們地方制度法第83條之3的一個修正讓我們能夠一同的來彌補過去修法的這個疏漏回復這個公義在這邊做這樣的說明 謝謝好 接著我們請李燕秀委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3338.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3366.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
在現場所有的委員大家早安我的提案是在根據地質法的第55條跟第56條現在的房價越來越高但是我們政府的軌道建設其實陸陸續續都完成了但是我們的生活圈其實也不斷的擴大那都市人口下降之後活動的人口其實都會逐步的提升在特別是在六都裡頭我以台北市為例台北市現在在日間的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3367.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3368.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
活動人口總共有321萬但是真正戶籍數只有261萬但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3374.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3399.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
白天的活動人口數其實也都是所有各縣市政府在施政上的推動上所要持續的關注所以現在少子化之後人口涉及數的下降其實未來都是長遠的趨勢現在以第55條為例現在以台北市可以以各縣市可以設置到第三位副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3400.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3412.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
要達到250萬人未來目前只有新北台中跟高雄可以但是如果以我們現在人口老化然後少子化之後恐怕未來包括六都裡面要達到250萬的各縣市長遠來看其實都會越來越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3417.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3438.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
但是我要强调的是我们现在的地质法未来各县市要应付社会人口老化包括上下班的交通通行的问题完善的幼儿教育实验的政策还有更重要是要解决现在极端气候的整体的变化我觉得现在各县市政府他们的挑战 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3439.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3455.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
跟業務也越來越多所以未來如何去因應他們的這個專業更專業化的治理更多元更專業化的治理我覺得應該在六都裡面直接都不要去思不要只考量到250萬的人口數應該可以設置第三位副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3459.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3488.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
未來讓這個六都裡面各縣市他們可以去考量到他們未來就是財政狀況這樣因為只增加一位副市長的裁員那他們也會朝向更專業化完善化去處理他們副市長的設置那另外非六都的部分我提的版本是未來如果人口有達到總人口設2%也能夠新增第二位副市長未來藉此來推動他們的政務相關的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3490.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3518.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個是以跳脫絕對人口數來當作唯一標準的思維現在中央的業務包括面臨政府面臨的挑戰也越來越多但是地市法在第55條跟第56條的修正其實就是讓未來的地方施政的推動可以朝向更專業化來去處理那增加的財源其實是由地方上來做負擔而且只是增加一位副市長的費用而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3519.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3526.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
以上谢谢好接着请高金素美委员提案说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3537.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3556.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
謝謝趙偉我今天提案是第九案就是地方制度法第83條之三的條文修正草案然後這個修正的第一項的財政事項並且要新增第二項恢復三地原住民區原有的三地原住民區的稅捐還有三地原住民區的公共債務的財政事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3558.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3578.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
让其得与其他乡镇市有同等地位的财政能力我们来看一下在99年的时候因为武都深阁直辖市所以我们的桃园市的复兴区新北市的乌来区台中市的和平区以及高雄市的茂林 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3578.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3590.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
桃園、喇嘛夏這三個區一時間就喪失了我們的自治權還有財政權地方的發展因此受到非常嚴重的創傷雖然在103年的時候我提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3594.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3611.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
新增加了83條之三也就是恢復了自治的地位也就是我們的區長可以民選但是三地原住民區在改制前享有的稅捐還有公共的財務、財政的權益我們的政府並沒有同步的恢復 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3616.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3632.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
更大幅的削減了財政的自主權這進一步限制了原住民自治區的發展權力目前只能夠有直轄市的政府設算補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3633.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3655.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
然後補助的金額全部憑直轄市政府的裁量我認為這是缺乏了明確規範跟保障這也導致了山地原住民區的財政是充滿了不確定性更處於弱勢的地位無法有效的推動基礎建設還有我們的經濟發展為了要解決這個問題我提出地方制度法修正方案有兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3662.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3680.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第一個就是恢復三地原住民區的稅捐還有公共債務的財政權益要賦予這幾個地方的區它的財政自主權第二個對現行的財源分配的機制要進行改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3681.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3697.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我要要求參酌改制前的分配方式為什麼呢改制後我們幾個原住民區的財政都不比以前沒有改制前的財政收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3697.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3718.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
反而變少了待會在逐條的詢答的時候我會把那個四算表給大家看一下所以呢我們避免因為在地方政府協商不對等而導致分配的隨意性我們也希望能夠保障財政穩定性原鄉目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3720.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3740.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
經濟非常的拮据百業待新為了要促進城鄉的均和發展完整原鄉的基礎建設並且要實現原住民族的轉型正義我要懇請在座的各位委員來支持本案的修正案謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3746.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3749.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
接着请徐巧心委员提案说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3755.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3779.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
謝謝主席我今天要提案的說明主要是在地方制度法的第55條那有關於這個副市長怎麼樣能夠這個增聘那根據內政部在110年公佈的電信資料像以我們台北市來說平日的日間人口活動有350萬人那跟晚上停留的時間相比差了增加了71萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3781.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3802.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以呢也就是說在台北市有很多人他們是戶籍他或許他沒有設在台北市但是他工作的地點就是在台北市所以對台北市而言我們平常日常要管理的人數呢不會是戶籍上面的人數實際上是更多的所以我們用台北市的歷年的戶籍人口數據來講的話近40年內呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3804.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3826.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
台北市的人口數在民國79年是最高271萬人那在20年的期間之內大概是226萬260萬人上下可是從2016年開始因為少子化高齡化等等的問題再加上新冠疫情爆發最主要是這個那所以呢很多在國外的市民他來不及回台灣就被儲戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3827.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3851.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以110年的時候台北市遭遇一個情況就是從人口的260萬人大幅降到252萬甚至有後來在111年的時候跌破變成248萬可是台北市的人口大多都是戶籍他可能在周遭的縣市但是他的工作地居住地還有學校他的小孩子是在台北市念書的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3852.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3879.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以如果我們這種總人口負債的情況是負成長的情況沒有逆轉的話那地方職責趨向於專業分工的話它是不會改變的所以我們認為就是說讓地方各縣市政府能夠流暢的去推動市政的情況應該針對地質法來進行修正讓各個職轄市都能夠增設就是總共有三位副市長讓市長有更多彈性跟資源能夠提高品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3880.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3890.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
比方說以台北市政府來說在張文德副市長上任之前一個副市長他要負擔16到18個機關基本上來說這是幾乎很難運作的情況以時差事來說真的是過於繁重了那有三位副市長的情況之下一位副市長他是負擔11到12個局處也已經非常多了但是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3905.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3932.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
降低一些分工跟溝通的壓力也有助於提供這個推動建設強化地方自治的職能所以我們這次修正的線型條文是在55條希望就是說呢我們這個有關於人口在250萬以上的直轄市這個部分呢我們直接變成是直轄市的部分就是設置副市長三人那我再補充一下就像以台北市來講現在也遇到一個很奇怪的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3933.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3959.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我们的人口数在250万上上下下上跳下窜有时候是255万有时候249万那这种情况到底应该要设多少个副市长那我们也搞不清楚那所以我们会希望就是说像现在人口全台湾的人口都在递减但是直辖市的负担并没有递减在这种情况下希望能够修改地质法让我们直辖市直接有三位副市长 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3959.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3972.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
就不需要每天都在計算那個人口有沒有達到250萬這也是一件浪費時間很無聊的事情所以僅此提出提案說明希望各位內政委員會的委員能夠來通過這樣子的一個修正謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3976.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
4002.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好謝謝喬新委員剛剛喬新委員說的本席發現我們區域立委除了台北市的我們白天都在台北市然後晚上再回到其他縣市好那接下來我們請內政部劉部長事方報告有程序發言那不好意思請部長稍等那我們首先先請張宏祿召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
4004.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
4008.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
有登記了是不是那就請李博義委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
4020.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
4039.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我們財化法,雖然這裡不是財經委員會財化法一共分了三千多億到地方那市權還沒有跟地方討論那很急著,現在這一週齁在立法院的預算會期的算是最後一週 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
4040.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4063.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
其實整個立法院應該是進入整個預算協商期間在進入整個預算協商期間那我們主席你這邊又排了這個我們內政委員會排了好幾條包含第7條的修正那包含這個第33條的修正第52條61條的修正第55條56條的修正第78條的修正第83條的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4070.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4081.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
這麼多裡面牽涉到什麼裡面牽涉到包含如果要改制直轄市要經過地方議會的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4082.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4110.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
裡面包含到這些離島的問題裡面也包含到鄉鎮市民代代表的席次要增或減依照人口要增或減的問題裡面包含到地方民代的這個因公傷亡撫恤金的問題裡面又包含到直轄市剛剛講直轄市市長第三位市長等等的這些問題裡面還包含到 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4112.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4125.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
縣市所有的一級首長要不要採政務人員任用的問題裡面還包含到原住民區自治財政的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4127.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4152.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
這麼多問題這個可能不是今天可以這樣逐條討論直接就這樣處理的這個問題我覺得應該是要像在財政委員會當然財政委員會是一個非常不好的示範我們希望內政委員會可以做一個比較好的示範就是說我們要把所有的縣市長那你現在經過財化法之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4153.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4172.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
今年度可能會分配到哪一些經費哪一些預算那接下來有哪一些原額或哪一些事權要怎麼樣使用要怎麼樣討論那在我們內政委員會來廣邀不管是縣市首長甚至是直轄市長來討論說你的直轄市長該怎麼樣該有兩個還是要三個等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4181.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4199.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
你的縣市長你的政務任用到底要用到什麼樣的比例我們應該要就這樣子的來討論如果今天就我們現在的狀況直接來討論直接就修幾個法來講的話我會覺得非常的可惜所以特別在這邊程序發言希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4200.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4215.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我們可以做足相關的程序不要跟財政委員會一樣不要跟財政委員當然也不是財政委員的錯嘛那天會議混亂成這樣子都把高雄市陳其邁市長邀請來了然後也不讓他講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4216.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4237.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
三分鐘通過中央統籌分配稅款有三千多億直接下放到地方而地方政府甚至還不知道要做什麼的情況下就要去可能要執行或編列相關的預算所以在這邊希望今天有這麼多條的法令那我也不是反對但是我主張應該要詳細的來討論我主張甚至應該要邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4246.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4261.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
縣市首長來討論我主要更全面一點的討論在二修財化法後希望地方制度法是一個完善的討論還有啊那今天也有這個婦女團體來針對第33條有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4265.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4287.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這不應該是在這麼混亂那麼雜亂的這些討論裡面應該就台灣目前哪一些還沒有達到國際標準的這一些專一單一來提出第33條的修正的討論我覺得也讓社會知道我們內政委員會非常的認真希望可以來處理這個問題所以在這邊提出這個程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4292.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4306.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那希望不管是主席那也不管是我們在座所有委員那希望我們內政委員會一樣可以秉持我們非常理性討論的這一個環境那來做一個比較完整的一個討論 以上 謝謝好 接著請 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4315.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4317.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
第二位我們請吳祁銘委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4331.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4355.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
好 各位我們一位同仁其實我們現在還有民內政部所屬相關單位今天所討論的大家的我看所有的委員有12條的提案那其實也有很多是雷同也有很多是沒有經過溝通意見還是有分辭那本席在這邊還是特別強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4357.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4384.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
因為我們內政委員會從過去到現在都是一個非常和諧的委員會那其他的呢你說像那個財化法 財化法裡面就有很多的紛爭我剛才聽了高津 聽了一些我們原住民的委員所提出來的財化法一實施下去對原住民整個的排擠又更加的嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4384.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4395.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那證明說你當初的財務法做過於草率過於清算那你在這種情形的話你在我們財務法已經三讀通過我們內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4399.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4424.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
還要再挪出了280幾億那你這樣還要再要求中央來做各項的補助我相信連部長也沒辦法去應付那其實我們也不能說一直來掏空我們的中央我們還是要合情合理大家理性的溝通那所以我還是建議召委今天這個會議是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4427.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4446.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
請邀請我們廣泛的包括公聽會還是我們各縣市剛才我們博議委員講的邀請各縣市我們的縣市首長到我們中央內政部來開會大家起的共識然後我們再來開這個會議我認為這樣會比較妥善不能過於 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4452.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4460.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我比較草率來通過,那未來又會產生很多問題這是我本席的建議,謝謝接著請張宏祿召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4484.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4487.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
我們內政委員會所有的同仁今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4489.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4516.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
今天我們來審這麼多的這個法案其實我個人認為法案覺得確實是有點雜有點多那我個人會認為這個我們等一下如果進入主條我們是不是來看有一些是必須要深思熟慮的要慢慢的來看也不急於一時那另外我覺得當然有一些案子是可以來討論那你說像這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4518.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4536.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
直轄市裡面的原住民區那區長現在都已經是民選了那你縣轄市的原住民部落的鄉他就有他自己的財源自己的什麼可是你直轄市裡面的區 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4537.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4564.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
的原住民區你完全都沒有其實這點我們大家當然是可以來討論來想看看看如何去解決但是不是現在今天我們時間衝突可以馬上解決我個人不認為可以這麼倉促的把它解決那剛剛大家也有講到很多這個什麼因為人口數的問題啊然後呢就可以啊增設副市長或什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4565.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4594.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
也不是不能討論啊我們新北市都快四百萬人口了啊如果照這樣我們新北市都只有三位我們新北市也很吃虧咧對不對啊這個不用討論嗎啊你們修法也沒有講到說新北市要不要來多一個啊對不對這個都可以討論啊那你這剛剛有人講到才化法啊我們新北市如果照現在的公式我也認為新北市很不很很吃虧啊所以我覺得今天很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4595.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4620.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
這個案子我覺得都有討論的空間啦都可以但必須要深思熟慮的來討論而不是說急救張的今天我看這麼多五六個法案我覺得今天恐怕如果要真的一個一個來討論我怕今天恐怕可能會討論到半夜12點都沒有辦法討論完所以我們是不是大家等一下深思熟慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4622.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4641.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
有必要這麼趕嗎我認為這些都要討論但你今天討論六七個五六個我覺得絕對討論不出來我們可能要討論個三天三夜才可以做到的啦因為每個法案下去都影響很多這一點跟趙偉然後跟我們所有同仁大家等一下思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4644.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4664.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
好謝謝張宏祿召委那我們這個如果有相關法案我們也歡迎委員們提修正動議那我們今天一定會讓大家充分的討論那召委在排案的時候因為都是地方制度法所以也 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4665.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4673.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
也不好意思只排誰的案所以我們一起納入主要是這個原因那接下來我們請范雲委員謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4679.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4702.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那個昭偉跟我們內政委員會的大家好那今天要修地方制度法那我非常的遺憾因為我真的不知道我們昭偉在預算審查後好像都快要修會了然後對我來講有點突襲提出地方制度法所以雖然我已經有提案了那我也是緊急提案那因為我們婦女團體那待會十點鐘就要召開記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4706.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4709.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
因為我們認為地方制度法最應該修的其實就是從1999年修地方制度法保障每四個當選人其中有一名必須是女性那其實已經非常非常需要修正了為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4725.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4735.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為當時這個修法其實事實上是保障四分之一到七分之一可是如果我們看台大教授黃長林的研究從2022年地方議員選舉有高達22.11%的選區完全沒有女性當選人因為她選出來的當選不到四人 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4745.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4756.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
所以這才是地方制度法要處理的可是今天因為我的案子比較晚一點所以目前整理出來的還沒有那所以我認為就是這樣應該召開公聽會那完全沒有充分討論讓各種意見出來那婦女團體也很想參加公聽會所以召委是不是從善如流 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4767.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4782.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我個人認為最該修的而且我們要改成性別平等的比例單一任意性別都能保障到如果一個選區當選的都是女的那也應該保障男性這其實是CEDAW公約現在2024年CEDAW公約其實是規範的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4786.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4805.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
百分之五十所以我們提到三十已經是落後我們台灣的CDO國內法化應該要做的那其實內政部已經多年辦過各種跟討論會那其實也都支持這樣一個修法那很可惜我們現在沒有內政部的版本因為我也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4807.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4825.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
連網這個部分所以召委是不是能夠開公聽會讓各種意見都能夠出來那如果我們要修的話要有充分的討論而不是急救張讓人懷疑這是不是一個政治動機是為了誰要多一個副市長那我就不知道為什麼預算會期在這個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4827.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4848.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這麼多 就是說各種的版本 沒有一個公聽會充分討論以我作為教育文化委員會的召委 我們就認為這樣子其實非常的不恰當尤其是在即將要休會的時候 是不是刻意要闖關所以我非常的希望能夠召開公聽會 也希望我們婦女團體 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4851.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4859.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那希望做到的與時俱進的就是性別平等的提升的修法能夠被充分的討論以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4865.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4883.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
謝謝范雲委員 范雲委員我印象你也已經有兩任立委的經驗所以其實不只是內政委員會也不只是地方制度法所有的法案在委員會排案的時候都是依據現有的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4884.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4909.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那個有在新增進來一讀通過後的在第三會期的召委也都可以排案所以不用緊張您的案進來以後這個召委也會斟酌我相信也會排案那因為沒有要闖關因為您關心的案子今天沒有沒有相關的法案所以我們不會針對您的那個那一條來討論好那接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4918.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4922.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好接著我們請內政部劉部長釋放報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4934.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4958.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
莊委各位委員大家早首先對於委員在內政業務上面的關注跟指導表達我們深層的謝意那今天內政委員會聯席司法法治委員會共同審查有關地方製度法的修正草案一共有12案那本部應邀列席報告並備詢以下將我們很簡單的一個回應跟各位委員來做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4960.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4969.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
有關賴世保委員等20人及魯明哲委員等16人提案明定內政部擬將縣市單獨或合併改制直轄市時所擬定的改制計劃應該徵得相關地方政府及議會同意因為縣市單獨或合併改制直轄市為行政區劃之一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4981.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5001.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
依照憲法第108條第一項第二款規定中是屬於中央的權限委員提案形同賦予地方行政區劃決定權跟現行的憲法規定有判格的疑慮第二個有關陳玉珍委員等18人建議制定離島基本法現行離島建設條例或 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5002.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5023.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
有關離島地區之法規對離島居民權益已經有保障如果基於離島地區的特殊需要建議在既有的法規基礎上也就是離島基本法是實際需要來辦理修訂第三有關於武麗華委員等17人高金素美委員等18人及盧憲毅委員等18人建議賦予 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5024.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5043.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
直轄市山地原住民區稅捐及公共債務自治權限因為即將會影響到直轄市自治財政本部近期徵詢地方意見地方對於是否修法未有共識所謂的地方政府大概就是直轄市的縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5044.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5059.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
以及直轄市的這個原住民區那待會會再說明一下那第四有關於武力華委員等16人提案增加地方民意代表及村里長因為因公殉職的撫恤金因為目前政府已經補助地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5060.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5074.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
在民意代表及村里長保險費並且開辦團體保險落實執行職務保障如果再推動撫恤制度恐有政府資源重複投入保障問題並且增加地方財政負擔那內政部在近期內也詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5077.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5089.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
因此這個地方村里長得到的撫恤金大概是在1000萬左右所以我們認為是否依照原來的團體保險的方式即可以第五有關於蘇清泉委員等27人提案修訂人口在1萬人以下的鄉鎮市民代表總額減緩規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5097.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5116.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
會使得鄉鎮市代表總額減少共62席衝擊地方政治生態非常的大那因為這一案我們也詢問過很多鄉鎮市代表會到目前為止可以說眾說紛紜所以是否要修訂也請各位多加參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5117.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5139.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
第六 陳玉珍委員等18人建議將縣市政府的副縣市長統一規定為兩人考量縣市人口數及組織規模差異甚大統一律定縣市政府至副縣市長兩人是否妥適而且我們也詢問過這個縣市地方政府的部分有些縣市同意 有些縣市還有相當大的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5142.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5171.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
另外,李燕秀委員等16人建議以人口達全國總人口2%以上的縣市,得增至第二位縣市長,雖然有7個縣市可以增設第二副縣長,但是有待更進一步的討論及拟據共識。第七,陳玉珍委員等18人提案,建議縣市政府一級主管及首長,除了依照專屬的人事管理法律任命者外,全數以政務任用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5172.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5191.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
这个即将会限缩各县市政府常任文官的升迁管道而且不利各县市地方政府在延揽优秀文官第八李昆城委员等20人建议增订民选地方行政首长及村里长停职期间一律停发新给复职后亦不予补发 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5192.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5208.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
因為停職尚非對民選地方行政首長之懲戒處分僅為暫時性措施建議橫著無罪推定原則及比例原則審慎評估另外村里長為無給職尚無停職期間是否停發新級問題第九 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5210.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5230.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
李燕秀委員等16人徐巧新委員等21人建议将直辖市政府副市长人数统一规定为三人考量现行规定食物执行尚无重大制碍且各直辖市于人口数组织规模等面向仍有不同建议维持配合相关因素做差异化的规范 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5231.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5254.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
第十,盧縣議委員等18人提案修正直轄市設算補助直轄市山地原住民區之因素現行其他鄉鎮市或改制前置山地鄉均無類比的保障機制恐衍生後原比效應合理性有待評估至於建議增訂直轄市山地原住民區財政事項準用 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5255.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5279.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
財政收支劃分法地方稅法通則公共債務法關於鄉鎮市的規定本部尊重主管機關財政部的意見另外委員提案調高直轄市山地原住民居公所秘書職等因為涉及地方機關職務列等的檢討建議由全序部會同行政院人事行政總處就整體制度公平性及合理性通盤考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5280.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5305.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
尚不宜在地方制度法單列增列相關的規定也就是說我們如果沒有考慮到財政收支公共債務地方稅則這三個不同的跟財稅相關的法律以及在人事行政上面要不要調整公務人員的人數上面的只單就一個法條來做規範的話恐怕會有自愛難行或者無法全面的合理性的一個效應會產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5307.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5326.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
再來為了健全地方法制本部配合大院在113年完成縣市山地原住民議員席次保障及縣市區議員席次總而規定的修法目前外界關心有關地方民意代表婦女保障名的比例是否調整的議題也就是大部分會覺得說包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5327.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5344.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
在地方的鄉鎮民代表會裡面婦女保障名額有很多代表會幾乎都是掛鈴的狀況之下是否因為因應地方運作之需要以及保障性別平等為原則放寬縣市地方政府局處等規定本部未來會持續徵詢各界意見以促進地方發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5348.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5370.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
綜上以上的幾個部分提供給大家參考就是說在我們都會地區裡面會看到說我們希望增加的是高階的包括副市長或副縣長這些是因為可能有地方的人口往這個都會區移動的因素但是各位再看一下有些包括在離島或是偏鄉的立法委員他們所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5373.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5392.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
或者是甚至山地鄉的部分都是因為財政收支劃分的一個不公平或者因為在人數或者服務的效能上面的不及也就是說會不會造成兩端完全無法看到有合理性或公平性的部分所以本部會建議是否就這個部分包括地方制度法 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5393.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5407.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
或者是未來的這個這個財政收支劃分法公共債務法地方稅者以及行政院人事行政總處在公務人員的運用上面呢可以再一個橫平性的考量再做以上的修法以上簡單報告謝謝好謝謝劉部長接下來請原民會中副主委新華報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5423.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5439.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
召委 各位委員長本會所要求貴委員會審查所提地方制度法修正草案提出報告那以下僅就部分的修正草案提出本會的相關意見如下第一個就是委員吳立華等17人 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5440.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5461.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
委員高金淑美等18人委員盧憲宜等18人提出地方制度法第83條之三的修正條文內容是就該條第二款3D原住民區自治財政的事項增加稅捐以及公共債務項目此修正內容是恢復3D原住民 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5463.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5490.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
區在改制前的財政來源有助強化原住民區財政自主性本會尊重委員的提案以及主管機關的意見第二委員盧鑫一等18人提出地方制度法第83條之七修正條文就直轄市補助3D原住民區實施自治所需財源事項應釋設地方自治財源事項本會予以尊重第三個就是委員盧鑫一等18人 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5491.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5521.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
提出新增地方支度法第83條之9第83條之10是有關3D原住民區應分配之國稅財政之收入及支出事項並應準用財政收支劃分法關於鄉鎮市規定另提出新增第83條之11條文是有關3D原住民區預算之收支之差短處處理方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5522.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5547.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
並準用公共債務法關於鄉鎮市區之規定以上新增條文施設財政收支劃分法公共債務法其中央主管機關為財政部本會尊重主管機關之意見第四點就是委員盧憲義等18人提出新增地方制度法第83條之12條文是有關直轄市山地原住民區公所人員職務設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5549.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5561.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
以及質等事項本項是在地方機關人員編制及職務列等表修正本會尊重主管機關的意見以上的報告也敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 接著請財政部阮政務次長清華報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5577.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5600.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好今天貴委員會聯席審查大院各委員分別理據《地質法》相關條文修正草案等涉案本部呈邀列席質感榮幸以下請就涉及財政業務部分檢要說明 如下進行指教現行《地質法》規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5601.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5622.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
直轄市三地原住民區為地方自治團體,據公法人地位不過依照同法第83條第3規定,其自治事項雖沒有包括稅監跟公共債務但為了保障原民區實施自治所需的裁員 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5622.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5642.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
在同法的83條之七明定了有指甲是依照原民區的自治事項改制前各該山地鄉前三年稅客收入平均數及其他相關因素與設算補助以遵應原民區自治事項針對近年來部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5644.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5658.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
原民區反映知識財源不足的問題本部在去年的8月1號邀集各指甲市政府及原民區公所會商考量近年中央統籌分會稅款實際收入數多超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5661.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5681.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
預算通知分配數所以我們是建議相關的直轄市政府要橫著轄區內的原民區的自治需求跟市權劃分的情況循預算程序綜合的檢討如今採行了那麼對於原住民自治業務的推動應該有相當的幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5682.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5690.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
另外本部在去年8月29號再度行文給各地方的相關的指甲室重申這樣的會議結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5693.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5708.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那有關吳委員立法等17人及高金委員素美等18人提案修正地制法第83條之三吳委員憲一等18人提案修正第83條之三與增訂第83條 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5711.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5729.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
之九及第八十三條之十原民區財政自治事項增訂稅捐及公共債務並準用稅捐及財政收支劃分法相正式獲配財源統籌稅款稅收分成等稅客收入等級 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5730.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5753.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
與縣型體制未竟相符那麼云宇省盛本部意見分數如下第一個稅收直接分成部分房屋稅、地價稅、汽稅、娛樂稅等地方稅在直轄市是全歸直轄市跟縣是分屬縣稅、縣統籌及鄉鎮市的體制不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5757.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5772.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
直轄市不像這個限定有分配鄉鎮市的規定如果原民區的稅收分成準用鄉鎮市規定的話除了涉及直轄市的自治財源也沒有依據可循這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5773.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5788.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
第二個中央統籌分配稅款部分修法前後分配鄉鎮市均有一定的比率在規模未能增加的情況之下如果原民區加入鄉鎮市分配的話將影響原鄉鎮市的貨幣數建議爭取原來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5795.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5816.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
鄉鎮市取得共識第三點現行財務法對池霞市並沒有跟現一樣定有現統籌分配稅款相同的分配機制所以要求池霞市比照現統籌分配鄉鎮市目前來看是沒有相關的法據可循 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5817.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5847.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那麼第四點那麼有關公共債務這部分目前園民區在線去併入其所屬的直轄市的計算如果要針對公共債務園民區的財政自治事項會涉及到直轄市跟鄉鎮市的舉債的空間的問題那建議這一部分要先取得相關的地方政府的調整的共識那麼在結語方面建議各地方政府各地 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5848.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5877.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
建議各級地方自治團體稅客收入劃分應與市權歸屬並同來考慮那麼上開五五委員還有高委員還有盧委員等提案的條文那麼涉及園民區財政自治事項跟實施自治所需的財源所有將牽動直轄市及鄉鎮市的財源之外也涉及到各直轄市與各 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5878.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5897.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
原民區事件劃分的問題而且也會涉及到比如修正公債法等等的相當配套措施那麼建議要先徵詢各地方政府的意見獲得共識之後再來積極推動以上說明 敬請各位委員執教 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5901.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5929.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
好 现在其他单位的报告我们请委员们自行参阅并刊登公报现在进行询答委员咨询前原例做几点宣告第一 本联席会委员发言时间4分钟必要时得延长1分钟非本联席会委员发言时间4分钟上午10点30分截止发言登记 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5931.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5948.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那今天因为法案处理本次会议就不处理临时提案请问各位委员有没有意见好没有意见那现在我们进行询答请登记第一位的苏巧慧委员发言 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5958.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5980.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好 謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉部長那還有財政部請財政部阮次長 蘇元昭部長 我先跟您聚焦一下啦因為剛剛您的報告非常的複雜因為要討論的事情實在太多了所以我跟你確認一下最基本的今天一共討論幾個案 12個嘛 沒有問題12個來講的話 你認為以主題來講的話今天大致可以分成什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5987.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6003.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
我想第一個在地方制度上面大致上分兩個一個就是跟那個人事上面人事嘛 應該討論人事 副市長 副縣長甚至有沒有什麼金門要變成是全部都是政務官這樣子還有一個人事的部分然後再來就是財源的問題財源的部分集中在偏鄉就是山地原住民的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6011.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6035.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
他們是否可以因此而增加一些裁員所以偏鄉原民鄉然後甚至是離島的這個部分要有基本法的法源所以一個是人事一個是裁員那另外呢好像還不止吧還有鄉鎮市民代表的席次鄉鎮市民代表的席次這個部分也是我們剛剛所提到就是他希望能夠如果人口數下降的時候他一直往下修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6036.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6064.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
但是我們去問所以還有這個人數嘛對不對像鄭明代表的席次那甚至是說現在因為性別平等的關係是不是應該還要把這個性別平等保障的這個放進來嘛可是我看還不止啊因為應該是還有這個我們跟村里長之間如果什麼停職一律停薪且副職不補發這停副職的這個他的津貼要怎麼發送還有包括這個因公傷亡撫恤金還有跟村里長的這個權利義務也要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6066.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6071.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
最後還有一個是這個改制直轄市還要經過地方議會同意所以其實看起來能夠抓出來的就至少有六大類了吧對 重點非常的多好 那您剛剛有說這個在這12個版本裡面其實在直轄市和原鄉之間這個版本之間可能就有漢格是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6089.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6109.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
不是我想不是漢格我的意思就是說如果我們好的人才或是優秀的文官希望能夠全台灣各地包括到山地原住民的區域都可以去服務是非常的好但是如果我們修正下去的話呢第一個你看偏鄉的人呢還包括說像金門希望所有的一級主管都改成是政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6110.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6125.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那這樣那個會影響到地方的這個公務人員他們是不想留在原來的偏鄉因為全國的公務人員總額是有一定的限制那麼政務官的待遇理論上比較好我們現在先不從他要負的權 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6126.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6146.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
則來說的話理論上政務官的待遇比較好所以會不會有哪個地方因為政務官特別多所以產生了慈禧效應把原來偏鄉的人才更吸走了讓偏鄉更難找人你的意思是這樣吧所以應該全國文官也會影響到文官譬如說如果在偏鄉地區他本來就可以文官擔任一個一級主管了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6147.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6152.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
所以理論上提出這些版本又要直轄市加政務副市長然後離島要加政務官的人不曉得跟原民的委員之間有沒有討論過彼此的狀況如何這個我們也不清楚啦所以這是你內政部從人事的部分這樣講那財政部呢財政部我剛剛也聽起來也有聽到嘛就是說你在這麼多的版本裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6177.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6197.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
也看起來是都需要跟地方政府討論的那我想請問一下從這個到今天我想雖然各位委員提案可能有一些也有一點時間一個月兩個月之類的了啦不等我看提案時間不等那請問一下你這些版本都有地方意見地方政府的意見等一下我們要審查法案的時候可以提出來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6198.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6215.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
有試算表嗎有試算表這是你們財政部自己的試算表所謂試算表就是說目前他們分配的狀況目前分配的狀況直轄市到原鄉每一個所有的版本會涉及的部分通通都有版本不是用版本而是就是說目前他分配的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6216.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6231.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
對 所以你就他們的提案嘛有些要增加的是這個原鄉的部分嘛那有些會牽涉到以外的其他地方你都會把大家受到的影響程度列出來等一下要審查的話其實基本上都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6231.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6237.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
但是這個數額地方政府都知道了嗎都知道那他們的意見呢其實他們當時開會之後大家都說可以盡量配合盡量考慮到原鄉的需求盡量從寬來給予那等一下應該有名單喔不過什麼對不起不過就是說到目前為止看他們因為現在預算他們預算都審完了嘛那未來他們要怎麼編 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6260.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6284.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這可能要雙方面再去協商所以意思是說要怎麼編根本也還沒有討論過就對了所以現在這樣通下去到底通過的話如果會造成什麼影響你也沒有辦法確認因為大家只是一個意向表達為原住民爭取權利每個人都希望為原鄉爭取權利當然每個人都說好啊讚啊但是最後怎麼編編了以後會有什麼影響你等一下如果沒有報告那請問我們到底要怎麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6285.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6288.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
要怎麼拿出來審要不要通過這樣的文字這都是很大的問題嘛所以今天在這裡的話我是其實我也是主張啦應該是這些剛剛說的12個版本六大議題都應該在有細部的討論那我們等一下會遵循主席牌的議程進入討論也可以但我希望每一項題目都應該要有充分的討論及資料確定它是可行的法案之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6314.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6323.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我們再來做出最後委員會的決定我希望大家各位委員同仁可以朝這個方向希望得到大家支持謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝蘇巧慧委員接著請張志倫委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6345.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6349.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
好主席好各位委員各位官員大家早就請劉部長好請劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6354.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6381.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
好部長好我想要先請教針對這個去年12月25號是內政委員會第一次召開機密會議我相信這是過去以來很少發生的一件事情了那當時其實我們就在講說我們開內政部針對很多民防訓練的部分開機密會議是不是想要規避立法委員監督然後去放去 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6382.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6397.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
支持某一些的民間團體結果不講沒有開會不知道一開會完嚇一跳在1月9號的時候有媒體報導內政部在去年的11月下旬曾發函給某一個直轄縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6398.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6426.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
要求說未來的緊急救護訓練要交由地方警察局主辦那規劃由壯闊台灣跟黑熊學院等團體來做專業的教師那這個預算總共整個的預算這些民意訓練民防訓練總預算是一億兩千多那114年的預算就高達兩千兩百多萬我想請教部長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6426.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6443.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
可以這樣子用機密預算來私鄉售售給一些特定的民間機構或是甚至想要圖利這些民間機構嗎這就是難道內政部他的機密就是民進黨不能說的秘密嗎請部長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6444.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6459.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
報告張委員有一些部分大概都是假訊息第一件事情就是我們上一次在審查所謂的秘密預算的時候已經有跟委員報告過大概就是警政跟消防有涉及到ICT的部分我們列為是秘密預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6460.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6479.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
這個部分呢我需要做作案報告對不起您讓我講完那第二個呢就是有關發函的部分呢因為這個是內政部授權給警政署發函那我們也把這個訊息稍微再整理一下發現到說包括呢在我們的這個報告裡面有提到所謂的黑熊學院或者是這個壯闊台灣他們兩個都已經否認然後同時也告訴委員到目前為止從來沒有委託給這兩個部份來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6489.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6514.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
請問我想請問因為我剛剛特別講開秘密會議讓我們很多不管國民黨民進黨民眾黨的委員沒辦法審查預算結果後來才發現是有吹哨者來爆料說其實在11月甚至更早以前警政署有發函給地方縣市政府說推薦他們我認為的推薦就是要求因為內政部警政署的推薦我相信就是一道聖旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6515.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6526.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那警政署有沒有發函這樣的資料給地方的政府這個是誰下令的?難道是賴清德下令的嗎?報告委員我們真的去查過雖然有寫這樣的文字但是從來沒有執行過 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6529.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6534.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這是因為沒有吹煞酒爆料當然還沒有執行過可是不曉得有沒有這有沒有思想享受那是圖利特定民間團體的問題這樣違反預算法這樣違反預算法我們不會同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6545.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6567.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
那你們為什麼要發函去,而且我要跟部長請教,這些發函的內容我請教一下,這些函文地方政府能提供給地方的民意代表或提供給中央的民意代表可以嗎?函文的部分,我們來找一下好嗎?答案是不行,部長,這些部分就是因為中央是用秘見的方式,用秘密會議的方式去 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6568.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6588.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
去私相收受這些預算所以地方政府他也不敢把這些公文給地方的民意代表也不敢給中央的民意代表因為這就是民進黨政府他的不能說的秘密就是要靠中央來做秘密會議用電密件到地方也全部都是秘密 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6589.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6604.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
讓我們所有中央地方的民意代表無法做審查無法做查核而且也只能用吹哨者來爆料這樣的事情報告委員您弄錯了我剛提到了凡是違反預算法規定的我們不做也不會做那為什麼要發函我第二個再請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6607.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6629.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
我剛有特別講到我們在12月25號召開秘密會議結果大家有沒有聽到各位委員我們內政部在11月就請警政署去發函甚至更早之前就發這些秘密的函文給各縣市的地方政府而且還要求他們不准說那我請教一下部長為什麼12月25號開秘密會議的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6631.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6653.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
當時很多的署長要把這份資料拿給在場開命運會的各位委員請問是誰要求他們不要把這些資料提供給所有內政委員會的委員我不清楚委員所指的是什麼事情就是內政部局政署發給各地政府要求他們要推薦 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6655.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6665.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
黑熊學院壯闊台灣成為未來訓練同志教官文凡請問部長當時命名婚姻的時候是誰下令請署長不要提供這些資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6666.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6685.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
秘密會議按照秘密會議的方式進行嗎署長我收到資料那個人好像就是你啊不是我已經跟委員報告過秘密會議就按照秘密會議的規範進行署長請問你當時在秘密會議的時候警政署下防署想要提供這些資料你有沒有下律說哪一位署長想要提供資料我不許他提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6686.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6706.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
主長現在都有吹哨者保護法我需要說第一個我跟妳報告現在已經有吹哨者拿出來這份密件說中央警政署的確有發文給地方政府用密件的方式要求他們使用一些特定圖利一些民間團體比如說壯闊台灣黑熊學院要求他們來辦理民防那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6710.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6725.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
那署長 部長我拜託你兩件事情啊第一個希望你尊重委員會不管國民黨民進黨民眾黨各位委員未來有一些不是密件的東西不是秘密的東西只是民進黨不能說的秘密可不可以不要列密件 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6726.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6739.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
感謝委員的提供這些方面的見解我還是跟委員報告這個所謂列密件或是機密或是極機密的部分按照行政法規範我們是按照美國規範我想你把兩件事情合在一起講我都非常清楚跟委員表達如果沒有按照預算法規定的話不符合就是不符合那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6749.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6767.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那為什麼要發函?那這件事情是否有應該要懲處?兩個時間點不一樣,您先看一下,兩個時間點不一樣哪個時間點?請部長您剛講的這個11月以前的發函的部分有發函嘛,對不對?有發函它有寫例如,但是表示這件事情沒有發生我剛剛跟部長解釋啦,你們的建議就是一道聖旨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6768.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6793.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
地方政府能不接受嗎而且我跟你講你這樣還甩鍋給地方政府未來地方政府使用黑熊學院撞過台灣的時候你就說那是地方政府他們要用的啊跟我中央無關啊我只是建議啊可是如果不照內政部警政署的建議那未來升官是不是就有問題這樣不會有利益衝突私相收受圖利特定民間團體的問題嗎不符合法規規定的我們一定不會做報告委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6795.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6822.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
希望部長兩件事情要跟你拜託第一個未來不是密件的請你尊重我們內政委員會審查預算我們做好立法委員職權的部分不要再列密件第二個相關到底是誰第一個要求要把這兩個要推薦這兩個單位的資料可不可以提供給本委會內政委員會所有委員因為我相信連國民黨民眾民進黨的委員都不知道這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6823.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6842.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
然後第三個,到底在秘密會議的時候,警政署長、消防署長在11月份就已經發函給地方政府這些資料,原本在秘密會議就要提供給本委會委員的時候,到底是誰要求說兩位署長不能提供這樣的資料,也請部長幫我們查一下可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6843.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6864.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
謝謝委員我可以馬上就跟你講按照我們的行政院在做密件的規範我們是按照密件規範來執行的那我們也同意在未來的內政委員會做專案報告的時候把沒有涉及到機密的部分呢盡量公開讓委員了解這個在上一次我們在做協商的時候已經非常清楚跟委員報告過上好那部長最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6865.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6880.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
剛剛聽到討論的是地制法那地制法的部分其實剛剛很多委員講得非常的清楚就是直轄縣市的時候希望說不要用人數來限制剛剛特別提到有很多的縣市它的遷移的人口非常的多比如說像台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6881.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6909.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
他就遷移人口基本上白天的時候有些上班時候人口大概會有300多萬的遷移的進去的狀況所以部長我相信剛剛你特別在討論這個議題的時候你沒有明確說明為什麼直轄縣市用三個這個副市長的時候你有疑慮第二個我也要代表這個陳一貞委員請教就是非六都的縣市裡面其實有一個副市長其實有時候不太夠那有時候要有文攻有武攻一個就是說要有縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6910.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6932.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
主要辦文化的有些是主要辦建設的所以我需要說這個六都的部分三個市長我覺得應該是合理因為現在以台灣未來是科技城市醫療城市醫療國家三個副市長應該是可行那非六都的部分我認為一個是這個一個做文化一個做建設應該也可行請部長是不是也同意這樣的情況這樣的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6934.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6960.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我想可以討論但是我剛有跟很多委員報告過我們希望能夠提拔優秀的文官而不是只有因為副市長副縣長這些幾乎都會是政務官那優秀的文官那包括有些委員提案如果全部都是一級主管都全部是政務官的話恐怕會影響到優秀文官的升遷那同時我們要考慮地方上的差異也就是說如果優秀的文官全部都集中在直轄市那當然是好事 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6962.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6984.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那有一些呢比較偏鄉的譬如說他的職籍比較低然後他也不能夠變成是一個主管的時候那他會留在原來的偏鄉或是比較偏僻的地方服務的可能性就會降低我是考慮到這個部分那委員的修正案或是委員的提案的話我們當然是都可以討論那個不一定是說很死一定要怎樣怎樣才是對的因為剛剛委員有提到有的人流動人口是400萬到500萬那為什麼副市長只有三位那這些都可以討論但是就是沒有一定的定案 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6991.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7012.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
好 那部長最後 拜託一下 主席不好意思那最後 剛剛我提問第一個問題 多久可以給本席資料針對中央政府發函給地方政府的這些資料我再查一下 因為我知道不是由我授權的部分 所以我再查一下那多久可以給本席資料月底之前好嗎好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7022.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7025.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
接著請張昭偉洪路發言我請劉部長跟財政部的次長秦阮次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7044.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7051.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
今天其實很多的案子我認為其實都有討論的空間首先第一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7053.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7081.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
部長這個縣市首長他本身的能力應該很重要如何把這個城市治理得好我認為很重要那如果大家都以說幾百萬人口什麼什麼然後要設幾個副市長因為我覺得對我們新北市非常不公平我們新北市人口那麼多那如果照這樣講我們也要有四個五個不然市長怎麼可以有能力把事情做好好像都忘記了市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7082.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7104.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
對不對而且如果說台北市的人口白天多很多那我們新北市白天人口是不是說我們新北市減少你們是不是紙上罵我們新北市的市長做不好所以白天都要去台北市工作我覺得不能從這個角度去看事情的啦對不對所以我覺得副市長要幾個我覺得可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7106.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7118.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
但我覺得不應該就是說從一個人口應該從那地理環境面積等等我覺得內政部其實應該要審慎思考去訂一個比較大家都幸福的標準部長你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7121.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7129.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝謝昭文的提點我剛在這個跟12個案子我已經有提到其實我們比較擔心的就是說有一點是兩端越走越好越多人越優秀越走越好越多人越不優秀那這樣子反而會影響到全體台灣在地方制度上面的一個差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7141.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7157.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以我們有提到說差異性的規範要能夠制定出來讓包括我們的行政單位或者是地方政府還有我們的立法委員都能夠同意我想這個是最好的一個方向但是因為太快而且每個委員的提案真的是都發散我們比較不容易凝聚共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7158.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7186.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我知道 所以部長我真的認為你們應該有這個心然後去把它做一個整體的規劃甚至我一直在強調的台灣的新增區埠其實是到該檢討的時候了真的是該檢討了不能以現行的制度去做這個要長治久安真的要檢討我真的很期望部長拿出你的魄力別人不敢做的我們給他做讓奠定在後來的五六十年一百年台灣的穩定發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7188.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7213.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這是一個 另外啊 再來就是說如果說啦 人口數很少的把它全部都弄成政務官 改成政務官其實乍聽一下好像很對喔 但如果是這樣的話有很多縣峽的鄉鎮市 它的人口也超過十幾萬那你們要怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7214.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7216.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那個姓霞市他也叫市長喔他也鎮長喔這人口都超過十幾萬喔他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7223.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7250.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
他的時候要不要全部改成政務官部長你認為你只要回答要不要就好時間的關係我覺得不公平啦對所以造成不公平嘛所以我認為都可以討論今天的這個議題真的很大但真的需要討論真的我覺得這個不然你說一個縣然後我縣下市怎麼辦縣下市有二十幾萬人口的對不對對啊這個我覺得要通盤的去考量另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7251.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7280.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我還是覺得說像有的委員提出來原住在直轄市裡面的原住民的區原住民的區他有選區長對不對他有沒有選代表會都有嘛所以他跟直轄市裡面的區其實是不一樣的喔對不對他的預算要經過代表會審查要不要財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7283.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7311.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
要這個要要嘛對不對那其他的區要不要其他的沒有據我了解是沒有不是沒有是根本不需要他沒有代表會你怎麼會會代表會對不對所以整個直轄市的原住民的區他其實有他的自治的精神在對不對部長對嘛他有他的自治的精神在那他有自治的精神在我區長看你不順眼我區長就不給你錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7313.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7314.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
他又要接受代表會的監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7315.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7342.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
哇啊這個區長怎麼做那乾脆你當初就不要民選嘛那你民選的就要給他一個民選的精神在我覺得不管怎麼樣不管黨派我們要就事論事他有他這個精神在那在這個精神在我們也要去修法或是討論如何讓這一個能夠符合比較地方自治的精神所以我剛質詢的大概有三個重點三個層次我覺得都可以討論啊不過 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7344.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7366.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
我相信如果今天這樣子來討論的話我覺得恐怕時間太趕我真的覺得應該就這幾個案子內政部跟財政部跟什麼行政院應該要去好好的通盤規劃然後下個會期什麼的來跟我們大家一起做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7367.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7389.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
檢討然後呢在這段期間所有立法委員去收集資料好好來討論我覺得就這樣啦那你如果說行政院吼那真不會很忙啊如果比照今天這個精神行政院就設三個副院長就可以處理很多事情了啊對不對都可以去做啊對不對重點是回來啦我真的覺得今天這個議題很大啊我也認為要討論我真的也認為要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7392.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7416.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
但是我真的希望說行政院內政部尤其行政院各部會這也牽涉到財政部還有很多的單位而且也牽涉到權序部人事行政部因為這個太多了你們應該要去做一個通盤規劃來跟內政委員會來跟立法院做一個報告然後我們來好好的處理好不好部長你認為勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7418.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7438.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
謝謝委員指教我們需要比較完整的配套措施啦那單獨修一個法條的話確實會會有疏漏好謝謝好謝謝啊那部長那個我們立法院一讀通過的法案你們內政部應該都看各部會應該都看得到吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7440.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7458.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
都會知道嗎 都知道嗎 對所以本席今天這個會把整個地質法有一讀通過的都排進來主要就是發現說好像都是內政委員會排案之後部會才開始要左手進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7458.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7479.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以今天排出來之後那我們尊重所有的委員如果覺得要再深入討論或沒有共識的我們當然是可以之後再更加深的再多幾次討論但是本期在這裡也希望我們的各部會內政委員會相關的各部會特別我們內政部就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7481.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7502.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
有委員已經一讀通過的那相信這個每個召委可能都有可能隨時排案所以希望大家也可以開始著手針對委員有提案的能夠開始來進行但是沒關係因為今天這樣子把所有案放進來以後內政部就會把今天所有案會開始重視好 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7506.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7515.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
要加速進行不要下次再排案的時候還是還沒準備好好不好好謝謝好那我們接著請王美惠委員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7524.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7547.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
主席,我們請保定,請部長委員你好保定,你好保定,今天我們要探討的手法就是地方自治法嘛跟他講來講去就是不是,地方制度法不是地方自治,是地方制度,對不起不好意思,在這裡我要保定說因為最主要大家就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7548.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7553.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這個實際上是六島裡面都可以說是三個副市長啦在這裡面我覺得可能最大的就是台北市啦那我覺得想一個法是應該整個所有的台灣的各縣市都要說啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7574.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7576.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
因為立法院有立法院的問題 管治中有管治中的問題剛才我聽到的 有人說我的管治 我的立法院裡面不夠250萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7590.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7593.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
但是我是每天給五千多兩百五十萬人所以你可以付錢給我但是不然在這裡我也要為高利貸來賺錢高利貸雖然二十六萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7611.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7614.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
到現在每天都為了很多的百姓、人、家人的服務所以在這個條例上看起來我覺得是應該大家都要坐下來探討才對因為時空百姓不一樣現在的服務也不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7640.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7642.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
尤其我們這個法治有八十八年開始到現在因為我覺得任何什麼法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7652.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7654.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我們都希望可以收到更多錢,因為我覺得在八十八年到現在已經是八十四年以前的百姓,覺得如果要去管理政府,要去問工作,要去做什麼,他們會怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7675.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7680.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
到現在變相,大家如果遇到什麼問題,都可以去找我們局長或是公司在這裡面,我覺得有需要再去修法但是在這裡面,我希望我們的部長,可以有局長的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7705.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7710.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
大家做參考 否則你認為本席跟你講這個到目前你有正確什麼問題嗎來謝謝委員 非常關心我先這樣 剛才蔣委員說我們內政部不做功課 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7724.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7725.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
暫時有第三個副市長是兩個市政府 其他不意見有兩個縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7744.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7753.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
他覺得 暫行 暫行啦對 其他沒意見 其他沒意見對 另外 副館長 如果是家園 也算是副館市長裡面暫行的有七個 但是反對的有一個 三個沒意見那你為什麼要反對呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7763.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7763.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這不是民進黨之前的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7778.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7787.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
以及主管轉播該做的事情無關這反對的比較多這反對的比較多 不然我就是要說但是現在跟你說 我要跟你說事務官跟政府官的時候我們現在已經改革差不多一半一半了讓他們可以自由去調配差不多一半一半在這兩天我聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7805.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7808.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
張國柱、趙薇和我們的部長在那裡探討的時候怕她的生活、她的起床、阻礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7816.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7827.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那你覺得要怎麼去改善有提案的人可以理解這個問題你是不是說得很清楚謝謝委員因為所有的管治中是免算所以免算出來以後他的政府官要做他自己不一樣的政見要怎麼執行但是我們都知道要以其政府的政雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7842.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7860.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
包括說管理層 新的跟舊的在交接的期間是什麼人要穩定 絕對就是文官一般我們來講叫文官系統那文官系統如果你一律全部都改成政務官只剩下人事 警察 政風 或者是會計的話呢它會影響到非常的大 會一團亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7861.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7881.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
會一團亂所謂的一團亂就是說你在縣市長在交接的過程當中很多人沒辦法維持正常的公文因為我們台灣的公務員制度它這個公文的簽程一定要到一級主管至少要到一級主管才能夠簽發出去那你如果一級主管全部改成政務官政務官有新的政務官也有舊的政務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7882.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7905.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
大家都知道新的政務官來的時候他連公文的起承轉合都不一定如何處理那那一段的空窗期會影響到縣市政府在推動他們不管是政務或是一般的公務上面的困擾所以我們不希望全部改的一個原因在這個地方那當然呢台灣是一個民主法治的國家我們縣市長是民選可是我相信很多縣市長他們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7907.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7930.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
執政的過程當中也會發現非常優秀的文官要讓他們升官那另外讓他們升官他們也可以變成政務官如果我們的一般的文官呢他可以不管是在台北市或到屏東縣或到金門縣都可以好好發揮譬如說有的人要回鄉去服務甚至要到山地部落我們如果限制他讓他沒有看到他的這個可以往上 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7931.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7945.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
爬升的這樣的管道的話我覺得對很多文官來講並不一定是公平啦不一定是公平啦那另外一個就是我剛剛所說的如果我們在縣市長副縣市長設一個地板地板席一定是一個或是一定是兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7946.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7966.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
那什麼樣是變成天花板你能夠三個或是四個是基於什麼個因素但是這個因素只有如果只有一個說是因為地方這個通勤人口白天有這麼多晚上降的那麼多所以就要增加那其他的部分是不是晚上沒有那麼多白天也那麼多的話那他要不要降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7967.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7986.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
這是我們所碰到的困擾那當然台灣的這個地方制度上面本來就是比較複雜我們有中央政府有地方政府地方政府又分成直轄市非直轄市那非直轄市又分成人口那還有非直轄市裡面還有分成是離島的縣市那這些都可以來討論但是如果沒有一個配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7987.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8000.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
只是因為因人設事設了一個人然後看起來就好像可以解決所有的問題我想對於很多優秀的文官他們本來就是戰戰兢兢可以說是24小時在幫這個地方政府或是幫這個國家服務反而沒有發展的空間這一點我可能會是比較在乎的部分那剛剛昭偉的提示是對的就是說我們未來如果有時間可以做比較完整的配套措施包括在財政上面的設算的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8015.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8041.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我們跟財委會會來討論但是我剛剛的在乎的部分就是說現在的新版的財政收支劃分法你劃分到縣市那邊去是怎麼樣個比例的分配你要再下售到區公所三地原住民的區公所的時候如果你沒有把它的公共債務的比例或者是地方稅則稍微再做修正的話恐怕下售不下去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8041.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8046.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
你單獨只有制定一個地方制度法的話,一定會出現空窗期,反而變成這個美意變成空不要緊,補充你今天的解說,我覺得今天我們是要想地方自治法 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8058.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8063.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
在制度法裡面,我就是要說,這個問題可能就很重的因為我認為,剛才你也解說很重的因為我認為,做身為一個國會的委員裡面,不是跟各黨方面的我們是要全面的,可以都照顧得到,因為這個修法出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8083.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8085.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
不能夠集中,也要有高強、高強,符合現在的時代因為我相信,提出這裡,要兩個市長也好,兩個縣長也好,三個市長也好都有他的需要,我們也要保證,各個單位、各個縣會要守護 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8111.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8114.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們要好好的去看如何可以修復好在本社裡面要跟你談到一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8120.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8124.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
在沿岸 像今天現在有很多人在沿岸都固定在這裡選擇尤其在家裡 他們也不一定可以關心家裡的事沿岸要怎麼去分配 去加 才能夠服務更到位 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8142.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8144.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
在這裡面我們也保證不是關心自己的事可以全台灣中華民國的地方都要全民探討以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8162.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8176.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
好我们接下来请高金素美委员发言那跟委员会报告高金素美委员询答完之后我们休息十分钟让行政人员大家可以用个洗手间 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8182.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8208.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
謝謝召委有請劉部長還有財政部政務次長以及園民會的中副主委因為今天時間有限所以我就請三位分別在台上來聽我我們來討論一下今天我們要討論的是地方制度法修正以後對六都三地原住民區的影響我們要來進行討論剛剛相信聽到了幾個委員對於園鄉地區的困境你們應該都了解了那我再說清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8209.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8227.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
在99年2月3號因為武都升格直轄市之後,這導致了我們桃園市的復興區、新北市的烏來區、台中市的和平區、高雄市的茂林、桃園、喇嘛下這三區一夕之間就喪失了我們的自治權跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8228.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8245.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
財政權103年雖然在我的提案修法通過了恢復了自治的權限也就是呢這五個直轄市裡面原住民區的區長是可以被選舉的然後我們也有代表會跟其他五都裡面的是不一樣的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8246.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8261.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
既然是他有恢復了他的自治權可是我比較遺憾的就是我們的享有的稅捐還有公共債務這兩項財政權益並沒有完全充分的來恢復到以前的模樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8262.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8287.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以您知道嗎 這導致了我們根據地方制度法第83條之七的規定三地原住民區的自治財源應該要由直轄市跟當地協商當時我們提出當地協商的原因是因為我們認為地方首長會根據地方自治的權限賦予原鄉地區他應該要有的他的財政權 但是很遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8287.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8316.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
在實際的狀況當中我們的協商過程明顯不對等因為我們的議員席次不多因此在所謂的協商預算的過程當中僅僅就憑直轄市這個首長他的誠意他的良心來分配財源這使得我們的困境產生了以下的變化來看一下99年跟103年修法之後各地區的預算變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8317.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8338.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
本來有三億六千八百七十六萬也就是修法前修法之後只剩下三億九十一萬減少了六千七百八十四桃園市的復興區原來有八億兩千零二十九萬修法之後只剩下五億兩千七百八十四萬減少了兩億九千兩百四十四萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8339.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8345.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
台中市我的家鄉和平區本來是有5億1761萬修法之後只剩下2億5832萬當下就減少了一半2億5929萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8354.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8363.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
從事的茂林區原來有1億1939萬修法之後只剩下9483萬減少了2456萬我們看南麻廈本來有5億7420萬修法之後只剩下1億147萬可能只有可以給公務人員的費用還有水電費就減少了4億7272萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8381.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8410.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
桃園區本來有五億九千四百八十六萬修法之後僅僅剩下一億七千六百三十七萬當下減少了四億一千八百四十八萬我們從這些數據來看我們相信當地的議員都非常的清楚我們各地的補助額度少於改前次的額度甚至於一半這些預算完全就取決於直轄市政府他的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8411.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8423.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
尤其是高雄市 你看一下高雄市剛剛我們三個山地鄉的原住民的財政分配是最為刻薄的南南縣本來要5億 只剩下一億桃園區本來要5億 只剩下一億 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8427.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8445.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
市長這樣的錢我恐怕連薪水跟水電費繳完就已經不能夠再做任何一個行使他應該要有的這個地方上的這個未來財政地方上的充裕的財政來增加我們的地方上的收入以及這個這個開發你認為這樣公平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8450.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8477.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
跟委員報告我完全了解委員的意見我們也不反對增加原民區的這些財政收入應該要有的自治權跟財政權目前的修法的方向可能會涉及到一些執行面的問題還有要涉及到一些配套的比如像要修公債法或者是地方稅法通責的問題可能在執行上會有一些困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8478.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8495.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我覺得所以財政部也很關切這個事情所以您知道這個問題對不對尤其高雄市我給你再看一下高雄市我為什麼說高雄市最為刻薄呢我們看一下高雄市的三地區的土地面積它佔整個高雄市的46.61% |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8498.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8516.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那根據直轄市的普通統籌分配稅款規定20%是根據土地面積來分配的嘛就是地方要跟中央來取20%是根據土地嘛然後您剛剛看到高雄市的土地面積我們三個區就佔了整個高雄市的46.61%如果按照這樣子的土地面積來分配的話我們的高雄市的三個區不僅分配到這些錢喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8527.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8548.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
然後不僅僅沒有分配到應該要有的財政的權利反而還比以前還減少了一大半以上所以這加劇了地方自治的困難也阻礙了我們三地區的發展所以這種制度缺陷剛剛次長您說了要修相關的法對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8549.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8558.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
對 我跟委員報告事實上財政部其實對這個事情其實是非常關切我們邀請這個直轄市跟這個各區的地方政府來開會那大家也交換意見目前交換意見的態度是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8565.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8581.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那現在就是因為目前的我們稅收比較好我們的實證數都超過預算數所以呢我們就是希望就是說這些相關的持假式能夠考慮到這些原民區的人自治的需求跟才人需要能夠盡量給他這個尤其自治權跟財政權對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8587.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8602.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
自治權跟財政權很重要吧我們一直在講 其他五都升格了之後其他的區都沒有所謂的代表會他也沒有選舉的權利只有原住民 因為是憲法保障保障我們的參政權所以我們有幾個直轄市升格之後有幾個區市 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8608.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8624.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
人民選出來的包括有地方代表 對吧講得很清楚嘛所以呢今天我們才會針對地方制度法的第83條之3來修正大家看一下我的條文我在第二項的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8625.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8650.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
有三地原住民區的稅捐三地原住民區公共債務的部分提出我的修法的意見然後在最後一項就是第二款財政事項應該要參著合併改制前的方式辦理這是我針對地方制度法的缺失我提出的方案講簡單一點就是要恢復要先恢復三地原住民區的稅捐還有公共 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8652.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8665.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
債務財政的事項要賦予他應該要有的財政自主權講白了就是這樣第二個就是現行的財源分配如果僅僅憑直轄市跟原住民地區來協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8667.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8689.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這會導致不對等的局面所以我要求要納入參酌改制前分配的方式來避免分配隨意性我要持續的推動修法為了要均衡城鄉發展跟原住民族自治要爭取更完善的保障我希望今天時間有限我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8690.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8709.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
財政部也好 內政部部長也好 園民會也好你們趕快來討論一下我除了地方制度法要提議修改這個條文之外還有哪一些必須要同步的我希望你們在一個月之內給我的辦公室可行性的評估方案好不好這個沒有問題 是不是我簡單的補充說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8713.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8722.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那委員的關切這個區公所就園民區公所的這個裁員問題我們都非常理解所以問題要守法目前的現在園民區的不管是加上人口數面積全部都納到直轄市現在把它拆開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8732.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8757.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
就會跟有一個問題就是什麼問題呢就是說園民區的這些他的財源分配就要跟其他的這些鄉鎮市要共同來分配但是那個比例是固定的就會影響到其他的這些市長你這樣說你這樣子的說法我不會接受我不接受你這樣的說法我必須要告訴你現在地方要跟中央要我們的統籌稅款 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8758.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8782.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
是用什麼來做依據是不是用土地人口稅捐對吧原住民地區人口是弱勢稅捐也弱勢我們唯一的強勢就是土地你如果地方政府不把土地那邊為應該要有的財政分配這怎麼會對於原住民區或者是原住民鄉公平呢所以您在這裡就不要多做發言了 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8782.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8810.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我要求你們三位一個月之內提出可行性的評估第二個就是今天的修法我會非常的堅持如果今天召委不一起把它送出去的話我都認為下次是可討論的包括民進黨的委員也有提案剛剛鴻祿委員、美惠委員都非常贊同本席的說法所以地方制度法的原住民的財政跟自治權限的修法大家都有高度的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8811.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8830 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
所以我要求你們一個月之內再告訴我們還有再修其他法我們一併要處理好嗎不是今天的不處理是大家有高度的共識OK謝謝謝謝好謝謝高經委員那我們就休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9442.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9448.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會接下來請黃婕委員發言好 謝主席 我們請劉部長好 請劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9470.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9494.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好部長好今天審這個地方製度法我認為是真的非常匆促啦因為其實今天的議程裡面大家的議題是非常的龐雜而且目的也都不一樣那包括說有的是要提到說地方的改制要合併需要地方議會同意那有的是在談原住民自治區的稅捐跟公債的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9494.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9518.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那還有的部分是在講說要不要給地方民意代表的眷屬撫恤金那甚至有的是在講說副縣長副市長的緣額要多少那大家聽下來就知道說哇每一個都可以討論很久那甚至都需要各縣市的地方共識才能往下討論非常的複雜甚至有的一旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9519.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9541.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
動了可能是直接影響到地方民意代表的席次那這個真是一動千億法動全身啊所以我認為在這邊要提到這麼多複雜的議題應該是需要更多更多的時間大家充分討論甚至是都要詢問過地方政府的意見才對所以首先大家要請教一下部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9542.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9558.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
裡面其實有一個部分我想問一下說部長有沒有得知地方的意見為何那有沒有先詢問過一下地方到底有沒有共識就是原住民自治的部分因為其實我看到內政部的報告裡面有提到說光是 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9559.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9577.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
原住民自治區裡面要不要使用這個賦稅跟公債給予這個權利的下放地方區公所跟地方政府意見就不一致耶就例如我看到裡面新北市的市政府跟地方歐來的區公所意見是不一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9577.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9581.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那台中也是一樣的狀況高雄也是一樣的狀況那在這樣子看起來是地方都自己都沒有辦法有共識那我們如何在這裡做討論呢難道是我們這幾個人坐在這裡就可以決定這麼龐大的地方事務嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9594.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9610.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們都非常支持這個尤其是直轄市的山地原住民區要自治但是牽涉到財政劃分的部分的話它其實在中央不管是財劃法或者是公債法或者是地方稅責或者是直轄市的自治條例裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9611.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9635.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
直轄市政府跟每一個區公所之間的自治事項其實都要一起來做配套的措施那這樣子呢我們把它放到法條裡面去的話包括說可不可以只放一個地方製度法或者是三個法條都要一起放進去這樣才會比較完善那最重要就是剛剛委員所提到的我們去詢問了一下這所有的直轄市的縣市政府他們都覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9637.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9655.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
這個事情牽涉到蠻大的啦那區公所的部分當然是說越快越好 越多越好但是不是只有一句話就好了它牽涉到台灣是一個法治的國家你沒有制度性的話就沒辦法長長久久會變成說只有一次性就解決了我這次補助下次就沒有了這樣反而不好那如果用 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9656.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9676.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
如果用中央層級的話不只是內政部還有包括主管財政財稅的財政部還有原住民委員會至少這三個委員會都要能夠參與一起討論大家有凝聚共識的話比較好執行好 謝謝部長的說明因為我認為這個除了是說現在看起來市政府 區公所意見不一致之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9676.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9699.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
涉及中央的是不是公債法要一起修其他相關的包括說我們現在連才化法如何分配都還不明確的情況下就這時候會出現問題沒錯怎麼如何進行這樣的討論呢所以我覺得今天在這邊討論實在是沒有辦法進行下去那另外一個部分我就更好奇了這個一級主管啊就是如果修法全部都變成政務 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9701.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9716.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
要求一定要是政務官這樣子合理嗎我認為對所有的文官體系上來的公務員是不是很不公平啊部長我剛有說明過我的意思是說我們台灣的一個政府能夠正常運作大概80%以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9718.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9736.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
都是來自於這些每天支支氣氣很認真努力在幫人家服務默默服務的公務員那我們很希望公務員他有他的升遷管道越優秀的話呢可以越升越高那如果說每次縣市長換屆的時候呢幾乎都換掉沒有辦法做一級主管其實我覺得這會有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9736.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9755.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那同時剛剛我有報告過並不是所有的縣市政府都同意這樣的做法我只是不方便講出哪幾個縣市政府那這裡面沒有藍綠之分沒有藍綠之分所以我是覺得說這知識體大還是要可以討論但是最好要能夠有凝聚共識這樣子才不會置私欲焚 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9756.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9784.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
好 謝謝部長的說明那光是你看光是連一級主管要不要全部是政務官光是這個原住民自治區要不要下放這個稅賦跟公債地方自己都搞不定了更何況我們在這裡要如何決定大家所有縣市的意見呢那最後一個我認為非常非常不合理沒有必要性也沒有正當性啦就是現在有委員提案說所有的直轄市都要有三個副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9784.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9806.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
不論人口的多寡那我認為拿掉了一個最基本的指標就說不論人口多寡都要有三個副市長這毫無道理可言啊難道沒有任何的指標為什麼可以做這樣的決定呢是不是對特定的人士還是對特定的政黨在量身打造呢那不知道請教一下部長的意見認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9808.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9833.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
不分人口的多寡都直接設三個副市長真的好嗎它是一個指標但是這個指標如果大家覺得不合理的話應該修改這個指標而不是修改這個門檻那如果大家覺得說每個地方的副縣長或是副市長應該設一個或兩個那就是因為大家是一視同仁但是以後怎麼往上加包括剛剛有人提到譬如說以新北市為主他們有400萬人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9833.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9836.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那為什麼他的副市長只有三個那這個就表示會造成不公平的現象所以我們是覺得說不要因人設事然後能夠好好討論會比較好因為到目前為止並沒有哪一個直轄市的副市長目前是缺額的狀況其實都是滿額的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9853.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9869.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
那也許這個直轄市的市長有不同的意見那我們也願意從那意見上面來做分析把它比較做比較好的規定出來的話大家按照這樣的一個規範來處理才不會說好像因為什麼人然後做什麼事那這樣子就失掉我們在修法的一個大原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9870.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9894.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
好 謝謝部長的說明所以不要因人設施非常重要啦如果這個制度要改就應該往更公平的方向改而不是往特權的方向去改那我在這邊表達我的意見我希望接下來裡面所有的每個提案都可以討論但是大家先好好坐下來開個公聽會徵詢所有地方政府徵詢所有地方需要的區公所的意見大家再來找尋一個共識嘛好 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9901.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9903.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
好 接著請李博義委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9913.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9936.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
謝謝有請部長部長你已經站在那裡了辛苦了委員好謝謝部長剛回應黃婕委員的時候講到一個重點就是現在六都的副市長都是滿額的也就是說高雄三個副市長是滿的那台南兩個副市長都有人在任台中也是那台北市新北市也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9937.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9956.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
但為什麼現在新台北市的委員來這邊提案提這一個台北市這個人口的問題部長我請問一個問題如果都是滿任如果三位副市長都在任那他人口在下個月掉到248萬的我們會叫其中一個副市長解職嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9964.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9987.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
下個月的話我想不會啦但是下一屆就很難講就一屆嘛對那所以現在我們在處理什麼問題我們現在有可能是在處理台北市的立委要替台北市長解套他可能有一個副市長要去參選參選之後萬一沒中萬一沒有選上他要回任副市長有可能是這個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9989.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
10012.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
如果是這個問題的話 我覺得也太沒有自信了吧我們先釐清這一點問題 剛剛部長已經幫我們釐清了就是說台北市的現況 它的人口如果低於250萬的話其實我們內政部不會要求台北市政府將第三位副市長解職嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
10012.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
10029.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
不會不會這樣子嘿好那如果等到下一屆那台北市的人口又達到250萬了那也都沒有這個問題嘛是那除非就是說中間有一個副市長他即將要去做別的事情他怕他回不來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10031.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10051.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
不敢講所以我覺得今天包含很多的地方制度法在裁劃法修法之後雖然這個裁劃法的修法是非常有爭議對於中央以及地方的事權都還分得非常不清楚的時候部長你內政部又做了一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10052.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10079.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
在我們內政委員會上一個會期的修法裡面我們把里長的這個年終慰問金也加入而且是要求中央買單喔當時還沒有財務法的問題那內政部信守承諾這幾天地方群組都有收到所有全台灣的里長都會在這個月會領到內政部所發的這個多一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10081.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10094.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
1.5個月的這個春節慰問金那才化法之後有沒有要做相關的討論我覺得內政部這個很乾脆啦你就直接說內政部還是直接發給這個所有全國的里長這一筆經費了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10098.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10109.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
謝謝委員啦其實我也有跟召委報告過也跟各個黨團總召都報告過就是現在我們雖然114年的總預算還在立法院還沒通過但是我們認為說按照現在是一個應該我們來全額之應 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10113.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10129.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以又有一位要到國庫署去調這個國庫的關係所以上個禮拜就事先發函那包括每個黨團的總召或者是召委都同意我們趕快做所以才會有李委員你所說的每個地方的村里長都會在春節前10天收到1.5個月的事務補助費 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10135.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10154.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
但是未來的財政收支劃分法如果還沒有明定下來的話內政部當然還是會去爭取如果明定下來的話說不定會變成是中央跟地方政府都要分開按照比例來分開這個我不敢確定因為現在財政收支劃分法還沒有一個明定的規則出來但是我們還是要極力去爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
10155.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
10184.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
謝謝部長財政收支劃分法現在的狀況就是錢下去了錢不見了但是事情誰要做哪一些事情誰要做都還沒有談所以眼下最重要的任務其實是談我們的事權的分配以及我們現在這個地方制度法會產生什麼問題依照各委員這樣提出來的這些修法的版本裡面包含原住民自治的財務這個我們當然也是對於原住民自治我們是表達支持但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
10185.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
10207.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
財政紀律呢要不要先檢討相關的這些目前所有財政的狀況再來做討論我覺得也是可以討論的啦那最後一個包含縣市政府一級主管全部用政務使用我覺得會出一個非常大的問題有很多縣市如果全部改成這個政務官的話所有文官的神錢全部擋住了 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
10208.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10235.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
可能三十幾歲四十幾歲的文官的身先全部擋住了他可能當了一任政務官之後他永遠也回不去他原本值等所以這產生非常大的問題我希望這一個部分也可以大家可以做跟縣市政府來做一個比較完整性的討論再來做修法那最好是由內政部由行政院來共同討論出一個比較完整的版本讓全台灣經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10236.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10242.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
財化法之後的地方制度法也可以有比較完善的一些改正謝謝謝謝委員好 接下來請范雲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10258.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10278.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
朝委跟各位委員大家好那如同我今天早上程旭發言的時候所說的那我真的是禮拜五才知道今天居然我們在會期快結束的時候就是有點被突襲的感覺要修地方制度法那我緊急就是聯繫了我們婦女團體那今天早上10點鐘緊急開了一個記者會覺得如果今天這個突襲是朝委或者是傅坤祺 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10288.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10294.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
為了哪個市據聞可能是蔣灣的台北市要增設第三位副市長那我覺得這個3真的是特權3那我們應該要平權3就是這個地方制度法最需要修的其實是20幾年沒有處理的就是提升婦女參政我們改為性別平等的一個制度保障那因為我的PPT不知道為什麼還沒出來我就直接講我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10317.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10343.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
CEDAW是我们台湾非常遵守的一个国际法规它其实已经国内法化了2012年我们也开始实行CEDAW的实行法就已经有规范政府要遵守CEDAW委员会的意见2024年去年10月CEDAW委员会的最新的看法第40号一般性建议就有提到各国现况30%的女性参政是不够的 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10344.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10352.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
委員會建議要修法來提升更高的比例理想的目標是男女各辦雙方才有相同的決策權我們回來看雖然我們非常的驕傲我們是亞洲第一但是其實我們相關的制度有20年沒有更新在國會的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10364.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10378.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
相當的好可是你看我們2006年修憲其實因為不分區的二分之一可是不分區比例是佔整個立法院還蠻低的所以實質上只有保障15%的立委席次地方制度法 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10379.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10394.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
第33條是在我們1999年修法的那他實質上其實只有保障到四分之一到七分之一的席次那我們來看一下我的表格就是還沒有我就直接講給大家聽其實就台大 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10397.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10423.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
政治系的教授黄长林的研究目前全国地方议员虽然有保障可是比较是在四席以上的那非常多的地方尤其是有城乡差距的人口比较少的乡村地方那很多时候因为选出来当选人不到四人甚至完全没有得到保障所以全国依黄长林教授的研究2022年地方议员 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10424.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10452 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
居然有高達22.11%的選區完全沒有受惠到我們這個地方制度法的這個保障完全沒有女性當選人是零耶所以當我們很驕傲的說我們亞洲第一的時候你有沒有發現這是有城鄉差距的甚至因為沒有女性保障名額有選區連女性參選都沒有所以今天我們如果要修地方制度法的話其實應該最要改的是這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10453.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10471.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
那過去大家說是不是優秀男性被無能女性取代根據學者黃長林還有政大的政治系教授主任楊婉瑩的研究女性保障名的出現促使政黨願意提名女性新人而且政黨傾向於找專業女性才能跟現任者抗衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10472.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10482.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
女性保障名額過去在台灣促進了非常多優秀女性加入了政治工作對政治品質的提升是好事所以並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10502.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10527.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
2017年2024年內政部的相關的座談會公聽會研究都呈現要改為三分之一性別比例原則所以奉勸召委那真正要改的是這個平權三分之一不是特權第三位市長那我也請問我們內政部長我知道內政部長我們劉世芳部長一直都非常支持性別平權也是我們第三位 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10528.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10533.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
女性內政部長那不知道部長是不是支持今年婦女團體早上開記者會的這個修法方向願不願意進行研議那盡快能夠我們希望有行政院的版本一起討論非常謝謝范委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10547.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10566.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
尤其是我們看到這個台大的黃長林教授提到這個在以前修法的時候我們確實保障了這個優秀的女性參政但是看起來只有在縣市議會或者是立法委員的層級那對於像鄉鎮代表的部分呢反而就沒有也會受限到四分之一反而變成是天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10567.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10584.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
那個鄉鎮代表只有三個的那三個都是男性那結果就持續到現在那我們提供給這個大院參考的資料也特別提到說縣市議會當中的零女性的選區裡面居然有40個然後在鄉鎮市民代表會裡面零女性的選區還有318個 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10587.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10612.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
那這表示說如果我們要鼓勵優秀的女性或者年輕人因為我們剛提到她不是女性保障品她性別保障品平衡的原則是三分之一所以我們會支持這樣的修法那支持這樣的修法是不是容許我們有一點時間不管是放在地方製度法的33條或者是有其他的相關的部分把它放進去然後再送到大院來一起審議讓我們一起來支持這個CEDAW裡面所標榜的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10613.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10640.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
好謝謝我非常希望也謝謝我們內政部長劉思芳支持這個提案我想你也認同我講的這個比那個會要花地方財政的第三位市長更應該優先被討論吧是好那希望就是內政部盡快的有一些規劃那也呼籲我們召委您也是女性的立委那支持性別平等而且我剛剛沒有講到男性也會受惠在一些女性財政那這是性別保障因為我們要改成性別 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10642.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10655.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
單一性別都能得到保障那希望我們不要急救張的討論這個可能給部分人特權的地方制度法修法那婦女團體都在看我們的委員會討論那我們真正應該要的是支持性別平等的不分單一性別的這個保障好不好那希望朝委懸來勒馬就是我們最需要的是平權而不是特權好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10670.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10694.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
好 谢谢范园委员范园委员可能有所误解没有悬崖勒马的问题更没有突袭的问题我想本席是秉持那个部长您可以先回座本席是秉持平等的原则平等对待我不能只排某些立委的案所以今天的排案是针对目前内政委员会 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10695.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10707.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
受到大院交付一讀通過的所有地方制度法的法案本席今天全數排入當然我們不會倉促的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10709.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10725.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們不會倉促的修法而且大家可以看到就是因為本席排入之後各行政單位才會開始重視這些問題那今天下午我們會逐條只要大家覺得有需要再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10727.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10750.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
今天沒有辦法有決議的我們會保留今天要討論今天一定要討論我們還是要進行討論聽聽大家的意見那再來就是我們立法院每一位委員在修法的時候都有每一位委員他的努力還有他的理念我們希望大家能夠以更開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10751.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10778.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
的態度更開闊的心胸去尊重每一位委員的修法第三本席也要強調性別平權本席從年輕時代就一直是非常重視這一塊也跟大家一起致力於我們台灣社會的性別平權所以對於范雲委員所提的本席也支持謝謝我們接下來請麥玉珍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10792.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10796.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
謝謝主席 有請我們的部長好 請劉部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10806.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10829.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
麥委員您好部長好有很多事情要請教我們警政署一一四年新編例兩千兩百一十八萬的投入民防訓練並規劃由壯闊台灣黑松學院等團體辦理相關的課程警政署在星期五的十號的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10831.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10852.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
也對外證實了這個消息所以有很多事情要請教我們的部長我們部長去年113年發的公文也給過指察室的政府要求指定預算給黑熊學院使用的公文也是一般公文還是密等這個要請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10855.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10861.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
因為我們看到的就是應該部長知道我們民進黨的金周刊、金簡自己也說了你們發的公文是密等難道提升社會防疫的計畫是秘密計畫嗎報告委員我剛剛有跟其他委員澄清過第一個就是我們任何計畫都要按照預算法執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10884.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10910.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那內政部發的這個函它是由警政署因為是授權的關係發出去的那這個函裡面提到了所謂的民力任務隊呢並不是外界所說的它是說規劃NGO團體之專業師之例如壯闊台灣黑熊等團體那到目前為止我上任之後我們並沒有任何一筆預算是用預算法的方式委託給壯闊台灣跟黑熊學院 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10912.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10916.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那同時這兩個團體他們也對外講 他們從來沒有跟我們的內政部申請過這相關的經費那至於這個 媒體上面的部分的話我們會去澄清 而且我們警政署也發函的他常常亂講 所以你們都不會去跟他們說要跟我們有關的我們就會澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10937.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10942.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
常常就可以隨便亂講我們會去澄清你們去澄清而已所以我們不會去告金週刊因為他們都亂講話所以你們就允許他們這樣子亂講話就是我們去澄清就好所以是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10952.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10954.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以我們因為看到的就是我們希望說我們全民納稅錢不能去只是要去養黑松學院所以我們希望說我們想要關心的就是黑松學院也有一件事情我們在公益勸募的平台募款是我們質疑它是違反公務勸募的條例的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10980.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10986.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
雖然是衛生福利部出面背書說表示黑松學院是合法勸募的團體但是爭議還是很大第一個我們請教我們的部長所以你認同黑松學院推廣民房教育算是公益活動嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11005.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11022.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我想所有的團體啊 到內政部來登記的話 只要他合乎那個人民團體組織 沒錯 民間團體都可以登記 每一個人都有 但是說我問你的是說他的民房教育算公益活動嗎 他可以去募款嗎 為了這件事情要去募款嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11024.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11032.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
合乎我們人民團體的條例的話合乎任何的團體去申請募款申請募款是由衛福部來認定的主要的就是公益團體才能是募款但是呢在兩年前我們的潮信城宣布捐給我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11047.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11052.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
黑松學院10億元 就是給黑松學院所以他的錢已經在花完了嗎所以才要去進行募款嗎如果花完了 那我們的根據我們的公益募捐的第18條再第19條的規定真人捐贈的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11071.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11075.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
捐募的活動所得收支報告還有公開徵信並包主管機關備查所以他的募款的這個項目他要花在這兩到三年內所以這個部分我們部長你知道嗎他們花光了嗎他們可以現在又再募款嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11094.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
11112.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那個委員跟您講一下衛福部他們針對所謂的社團法人黑熊民房教育協會的公益勸募一億有發一個新聞稿那我剛跟您解釋過了這個部分的話呢他在1月6號的新聞稿解釋得非常清楚那我想就把這個新聞稿給委員參考好嗎如果是這樣的話我們也是希望說他募款這是花錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
11116.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
11118.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
要拿我們的捐款的錢花在刀口上因為我們在真心城市在2022年9月就是要捐給我們的黑松協議應該在今年9月份這筆錢就是花在他募款的目的還有項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
11137.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
11140.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
要花完或者是沒有花完也是要跟你們的內政部去報告因為我們需要的社會幫助的是弱勢團體所以我們募款的目的也是幫助弱勢團體弱勢家庭有需要的但是我們看到的不是這樣所以這個部分我們也會去追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
11160.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
11162.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
第二個要請教部長現在的我們的地質法職場室就是要超過250萬人才有第三個副市長非職場室的話就要超過125萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
11177.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
11179.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
但是現在我們台灣目前我們新生兒就是生不如死所以這樣的比例我們要如何來去做這樣子的制度的管理呢還有就是說如果我們依照舊的地方自住法的話需要是人口比例來去分配但是我要請教我們的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
11203.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11209.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我們要以居住人口還是戶籍人口來去做這樣的比例分配呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11212.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11228.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
跟委員提一下就是其實我們到目前為止都是有涉戶籍才算是 如果這樣子你覺得說涉戶籍才算嘛是不是才有用這樣的比例人口嘛在選舉制度上面如果涉戶籍也沒辦法處理因為都是為了選籍來涉戶籍但是呢我們現在外籍人士居住的人口還有說你說這樣子去算的話以前我們的職場是我們還沒有合併的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11243.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11252.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
现在也是我们的非执察室我们有市长也有副市长还有县长也有副县长还有加上市长跟县长这样子的去服务但是我们是合并的时候要这样子的人口数来去要求的话所以外籍人士居住台湾都不用服务吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11264.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11266.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
對待越直轄市的人口越來越多因為工作的需求還有外國人來台灣的需求所以你覺得說現在的我們要去修法你不認同是因為你要用人口數來去比例但是人口數 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11284.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11288.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
不是等於服務人考數啊你用戶籍人考數就是為了選籍去掌握服務選籍的人嗎不是嘛因為選籍的人去繳稅沒有身份證的人一樣要繳稅一樣要服務啊所以我們是要以現在我們要修法過後的我們覺得是比較真正的服務到 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11311.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11336.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
也有让我们的民众可以有感因为我们需要去服务的市长像比如说现在我们如果这个修法通过的话我们要固定我们十杂市的三个副市长非执杂市的人口就是以2%但是像比如说我们的台北、桃园、台南 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11337.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11339.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
他們的人口數戶籍人口數沒有達到的話我們就沒有三個市長但是他的服務的人口數是比別的縣市多變台北跟桃園 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11353.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11365.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
是移工還有移民人士是最多的所以如果是這樣子的服務的話才是公平我們以人士來去算的話我覺得這樣子的話對於說我們以人口數來去算戶籍人士才要去算但是居住的人越來越多你不能這樣子去算的話我覺得不公平我們要有一個固定的因為人口很多他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11381.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11383.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
服務越來越多,他的要跑的地方越多,問題越來越多,不能說我們現在以我們舊的制度來去服務對我們的職場是不公平的,所以我們希望說這個部分的話,我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11399.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11406.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
部長要去要去同意這樣子的方式不要認為說因為現在呢各個縣市首長因為國民黨比較多所以呢他們在修修這個法你們就認為因為他們人口他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11417.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11420.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
的首長比較多所以他們要修這個你們人口比較少你們就覺得不必要這樣變成是政治的因素不是修法的因素來去考量所以我們覺得說如果是這樣子的考量的話我們很多我們的民進黨的要選各個首長沒有選帳但是他們還可以安排到不同部會當部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11446.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11449.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
他們也不專業也去管理那麼多都是專業我們用公務人員是要苦讀四年三年還要苦考好幾次才考上的他們的專業但是各個部長過來當部長因為選不上因為就有選不上還可以當部長還可以當個首長這樣子的話也不公平所以我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11471.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11476.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
新的制度修正 實際收回的是我們全國的人民 縣市也可以更穩定推動我們的政策 還有我們希望我們要做對的事情 我們要做了為我們人民來去考量 不要為了黨而黨 為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11493.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11502.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
要政治來去做考量我們要為福國利民來去做主要的目的來考量所以我們希望我們的部長要以這樣子來去做一個去修法還有說要來怎麼樣去對我們的人民還有我們對地方的首長更多的資源讓大家服務更更周到更全面以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11520.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11528.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
報告委員您剛所提的部分我是特別提到沒有配套措施並不是表示反對所以我們必須要設地板跟天花板所以你認為哪一個配套措施剛才我們召委說每次我是雖然是來立法院沒有像你那麼長但是每次我們修法都是各個委員提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11540.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11544.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
在要求我們內政部來提我們的法案再來提供修法不是你主動你覺得說這個法要修都是各個委員提出來你不會見得說你認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11556.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11561.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
等你認同了不到到民國幾年了啦我們希望說等你要是每一次都逼著你認同你才認同不是你主動去認同這個才是我們因為現在修法在立法院裡面要凝聚公事確實不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11574.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11600.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我們每一個立委要去修法都不容易每一個人都要經過考量經過很多我們也希望說我們要修法不管公聽會也好或者我們委員要發言也好把我們的重點不是開了多少公聽會還是說多少人來去說廣泛討論我們要的公聽會也好廣泛討論也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11602.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11609.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
修法也好 把修法的重點去講不要每次太多也是沒有講到重點也沒有要真正的把這個法來去讓更多人知道因為時間的關係 所以我就講到這裡希望我們的部長就是尊重每一位委員的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11624.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11652.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
有關直轄市設副市長這個部分我剛剛有提到說要設的是一個地板的門檻如何往上加要往上加不同的規範但是重點在這邊我特別提到如果你因為事情繁多只增設一個副市長而下面的局處或是下面的公務人員沒有因此而跟著增加或改變的話其實對於如何讓縣市政府的政府效能更好是有疑問的所以我才提到配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11653.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11656.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以我剛才還說嘛 如果是配套措施的話因為時間的關係 配套措施我希望我們的部會要提出有效的不能說別人的不好 自己沒辦法這樣也不好啦所以我這個就是希望我們部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11672.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11686.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
譬如說台南市我有請教過台南市現在的人口並不及台北市那他們不急著要提出所謂的新的副市長但是他們有提到說他們台南市他要推廣捷運所以他可不可以增加一個捷運局 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11686.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11715.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
好那增加捷運局的話那局下面就有很多工程師啊等等這些所以每一個民選的縣市首長他們都有考慮到說未來怎麼樣做讓他們縣市政府發展最好所以我再一再重複提到說要有配套措施要有這個文官公務人員的一個設置然後當然還有包括財政收支劃分法或者是地方自助法裡面所授的這個公務債務等等這些我剛剛有特別提到這個部分並不是我們沒有考慮到這個我想請委員不要誤會 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11718.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11720.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
謝謝部長 那接下來請黃建斌委員好 謝謝主席 請部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11733.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11749.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
部長剛才講的那個非常對我覺得其實未來其實不管是第四法修訂之後其實還要考慮到就是包括各縣市的職等要打開的問題讓公務人員有更多發展的空間那這個當然是之後我們再討論的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11750.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11779.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那我想在針對今天第四法相關議題討論之前我本席有些問題想要跟部長就教那部長本席看到我們內政部在1月10號宣布春節期間發給全國村里長1.5個月的事務補助費要讓全國的村里長跟軍公教人員在1月17日同時可以同步領到這個年終獎金那近日會撥款給各縣市政府請問現在目前的進度是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11783.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11808.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
已經發文過去了發文過去了但是因為它是大筆的一個撥款必須通報國庫署所以目前已經在通報國庫署當中所以1月17日之前一定大家都念在地上原則上希望在1月15日撥到縣市然後1月17日可以到達鄉鎮好 謝謝是市長喔是市長嗎對市長 因為市長有回覆市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11810.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11835.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
不然本市完全支持增加全國村里長的事務補助費因為村里長應該都是站在旁邊的第一手不然是入坪、燈亮、水溝通或者是村裡的大大小小的事每天第一天一堆事情民眾第一時間都找村里長我想這個部分我們一定要來給我們的村長更多的支持跟鼓勵不過很遺憾這件美事 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11836.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11849.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
卻造成 卻讓變成許多民進黨人士拿來做政治鬥爭的工具民進黨在我們立法院的總預算還沒有復回之前民進黨許多的這個民進黨代表不斷的造謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11851.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11867.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
總醫生如果沒有通過 你們這裡的傳統地方都站不住這個國保國衛的事務不足為人其實這個本事都有聽到 連我回到選區都有聽到這樣的聲音這樣非常遺憾喔 因為這樣的假消息我從來沒有看到內政部跳出來澄清或反駁這樣不實的謠言 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11868.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11893.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
不過我跟委員再補充一下好嗎我們在那個上個禮拜的時候有跟三個黨團的總召還有我們召委都有跟他提到說我們必須要把這個大額一共有5.9億的這個公務預算雖然是法定支付看能不能在就是所謂春節前10日發那因為他們幾位總召都說可以包括召委都同意我們才把這個公文發出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11893.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11899.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
所以事實上我們是徵得立法院的同意然後內政委員會很多委員都同意的狀況才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11902.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11920.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
但當時民間這樣在傳出來的時候甚至有民意代表在議會也講的時候並沒有看到內政部來澄清啊我沒有在議會答詢啊我是說地方啦地方 你要告訴我所以我要告訴你不一定知道你現在要告訴我地方 說這個傳聞不一定過嗎這件事情是大家三個都共同想要來推動的我想我記得那天也是在民內政審嘛 十幾個小時啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11928.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11945.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
當天過的時候大家都很開心因為我們可以幫基層的這些村長爭取福利我覺得這是好事情因為像我說的 保定我只是要分享這件事給保定知道說這件事讓我們大家覺得說我們是在做第二個事情有什麼用這個東西來做醫生有過沒過的理由所以我們還是富為人嘛對不對部長所以部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11954.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11974.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
如果你有當過地方的副首長你應該很清楚知道這個總預算裡面這個法律義務支出就是不管對於社會保險補助也好教育補助金額也好地方補助也好這個都是屬於法律義務支出建屋是絕對可以提前來動之的如果有所謂說拿不到的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11975.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11995.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我想說依法啦但是黃偉永跟您講一下就是說因為他這個所謂的地方的這個補助費是113年6月19日修正公佈那但他是第一次修正公佈所以事實上在事法當中會有灰色地帶然後我們在內政委員會審的時候我們的那個電視的監測系統也都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11995.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12022.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以指導的一定會指導 像委員一定非常清楚這個狀況其實在我們家也都可以找到的 至於說地方在說這些話的時候我們也希望說內政部要出來澄清說因為要讓我們的村民長安心啦 人家也期待很久這件事情對全國的村民長都是很大的鼓舞啦對 這種東西本來就不會拿不到嘛因為發生這種事情在流竄其實是對村民長造成恐慌啦好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12023.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12036.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
不知道我為什麼會這樣說就是我也被媒體問就是說你們為什麼要一邊擋預算一邊又說爭取其實我覺得這兩件事情是不能混為一談但我想或許政黨裡面它有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12037.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
12053.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
工坊的手段跟方式但是內政部正在內政部的角色應該要來說明不然好我們這個問題就到這邊我也想說我們不要再爭論下去了那接下來本席要再反映另外一件事就是說部長這是真的要跟配我們的傳理長來跟部長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
12056.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
12078.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
我們裡面有一個叫九任獎金就是年滿六屆滿六十五歲的村長他就可以領到一筆九任慰勞金現在很多年輕人他很年輕就現在很多村長很年輕就開始從事服務的工作他可能沒六個月還沒六十五歲但是因為這樣沒辦法領到這條錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
12081.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
12095.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我想這個失去了九任慰勞金原本的美意我們的重點是九任嘛不是他年紀多少吧那不知道我們目前我們國內啊 保證我們國內還沒六十歲的傳統你覺得比得多嗎 保證還是市長回答 市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
12102.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
12106.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
魏滿60歲的我這裡的手藝40%中醫一半 將近一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
12118.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
12127.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我也相信現在越來越多年輕人越會投入公眾事務所以未滿65歲的青莊社帶的影響非常非常的多所以會員也請部裡面這邊來做調查這樣比例有多少我們是不是能夠來研議來修這個門檻因為畢竟你要做六任並不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
12135.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12137.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我們現在手頭上的資料就是滿65歲的有六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12159.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12181.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
六成所以有四成是阿伯六成但是我的意思是說我們當時在考慮的時候也有考慮到說要任職要滿六屆然後年滿65歲我們仍然是以這個為目標現在的規劃的方向我們在會後會提供給黃委員參考這個請布委員來演繹因為年輕人願意投入公共事務但是要年滿六屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12183.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12212.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
65歲,但是他65歲為主嘛,不是以65歲嘛他可以繼續做啊他可以繼續做,因為現在立定有的也差不多不然我們主要是要鼓勵年輕人,你如果投入公眾書你有辦法做到65歲,這也是要鼓勵啦鼓勵年輕人為了保障金啦不然就是要來演繹這個事情我相信這不是第一次說這種東西我們來提他的分析啦,然後提供給委員參考好不好好,謝謝部長的言論我們來提分析報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12212.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12239.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好那最後我講關於今天第四法的問題我想不管是執政黨或是在野黨都有委員提出這個修法的版本那關鍵的重點就是希望地方政府的組織還有人士能更有彈性那增加地方的這個自治的能量像本席所在的台東縣其實面臨的也是一樣問題但是我們更大的問題就是我們要怎麼留住基層的公務人員博定我是怎麼說這讓你聽喔博定 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12240.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12263.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
年改之後,其實也有一些年輕人不太願意從事公職的工作,包括在越野地我們花東地區的公務機構,不管是公務單位或是學校單位,其實它承受更大的工作壓力在我們資源匱乏,而且在台東交通作戶方面的情況之下,偏鄉公務人員跟教職人員的工作負擔是日益沉重 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12264.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12282.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
而且最容易是造成人員的流動率越來越高行政效益跟學生塑膠品質都一定會受到影響那我為什麼會說這樣子部長我們公務人員有很多的家籍像東部就有一個叫做東台家籍部長 市長你知道現在東台家籍一個月多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12288.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12308.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
630元一個月630元連台北到台東的火車票都買不起一公元六百三十塊大家報告這個不是現在本是在最早到工部門擔任約聘僱人員的時候那個時候就是630經過了二三十年他還是630塊他沒有隨著物價波動調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12311.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12329.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那像這樣的情況之下,很容易發生一個就是,我報考上,不管是高補考或是地方特考的,他只要擔滿,像高補考,擔滿三年之後,他就可以,沒有榜樣他就可以離開,地特是六年嘛,會發生什麼情況?特別是偏鄉,北企占擔任過偏鄉的鄉長,我們六年以後,這個公務人員就開始掉薪, |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12334.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12351.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
因為你沒有願意讓他留下來嘛那會在人偏鄉還有離島地區會產生什麼情況我們不能公務人員的基礎訓練中心新兵訓練所啦新兵訓練所多六年 三年 多成熟 能夠開始服務的訓練他都要照顧所以我們是不是要研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12352.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12379.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
在這個部分我們是不是在討論說未來要怎麼樣提升基層工人特別是花東跟偏遠地區 領導地區工人員的這些福利讓他們願意留下來而不會造成人員的移動因為這一些基層的工人員還有教師員他都是代表我們政府要推動政令我們的政策的第一線人員我們希望他能夠更穩定那這部分我也希望請部長我們是不是有機會來做這樣的演繹 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12384.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12411.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那個黃委員您剛講的630元這個部分這是人事行政總署的規定那您有提到說基層公務員有這樣子的一個這個不公平因為二三十年都沒改變的話我們又會反應過去那您剛所提到的部分就是讓偏鄉地區的縣政府縣市政府的公務員可以留下來不是只有家籍的問題就是我剛剛所提到的在都會地區你要找公務人員真的比較快 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12413.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12439.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
好生活然後加幾多所以部長越上下就越不行那所以我們地方自助法在修正的過程當中如果你沒有很好的配套措施你只會鼓勵偏鄉的縣市公務人員往那個越好了為都會去的地方移動包括我一開始提到未來我們的指點是不是要在打開的部分後來升遷的部分它都實際上的就是我們的那因為指點打開不是只有內政部的權財會有那個當然部長部長你說內政部的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12443.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12469.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
大家長應該來幫忙對 所以我非常了解就好像我跟黃委員提過我們在台東這邊如果有警察在執勤的時候應該符合勞基法那我是不是用這個替代役的方式來幫忙你補充其實我們現在在規劃不是只有台東所以包括像離島也是一樣我說不是只有台東那我們已經在規劃當中但是必須要有一段時間的訓練你不能七公八公就夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12471.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12490.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
所以縣市 縣市尤其是偏鄉的縣市公務人員第一個直等或是加擠或是其他的這個升遷管道如果都被擋住變成他的天花板只有九直等十直等或者是一下子要跳到政務官政務官再跳回來其實在地方政府沒有那麼容易但是我們又知道你也在鄉鎮公所待過 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12491.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12504.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
如果是公務譬如說它是土木工程機械工程現在就已經很難找到公務員你要跟他講說你只能幹到副局長或者你只能幹到副處長我相信不要三年他就走掉了外面的要找外面的途徑很方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12506.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12517.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以這個部分其實真的是必須要好好的跟地方縣市政府來談然後再來討論到有關財政收支劃分跟公共債務跟舉債的問題這樣子搭配下來對地方縣市尤其是離島鄉鎮的部分呢跟在這個都會地區裡面的公務人員不對等的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12529.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12545.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以我們才提到我們是比較保守的只能寫說要把差異的規範要分析出來我們才能夠做改進那這個改進呢沒有藍綠之別所以很多委員會想說我所謂的因人設施才不是這樣子所以部長也是同意這件事情未來我們來做這個努力嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12552.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12570.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
要有配套措施,但是不可能只有放在地方制度法我剛剛有講過,人有人,錢有錢一波一波來啦,這真是,不過這裏補充妳的角度,妳要看這平行的溝通,包括學歷不正六八三十個在座各位公民,妳們一國六八三十個可以做社會,妳們跟我說妳們如果住在台北,妳們買火車票還要貼八個口在裡面,對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12575.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12590.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
一個月加息630元630元能夠你怎麼鼓勵他留在偏鄉我們最希望是人才能夠流動我們可以馬上來協調但是我剛剛所說的值等啦人數啦財政啦真的沒有辦法馬上協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12591.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12611.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
所以部長這個都是一步一步來我們一個一個來解決能解決我們先解決我想這個也是對工人員的一個肯定因為畢竟到偏鄉真的不容易我們要想辦法讓他們留住那能夠留住其實對地方人才能夠穩定的話對地方發展能夠均衡而不會讓人城鄉越來越差距越來越大所以也謝謝部長跟市長今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12612.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12625.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我們達到某些程度上的共識我們一起努力讓這個國家的公務人員能夠獲得更好的福利然後讓他們有更穩定的發展那也謝謝部長跟市長 以上謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員好 接著請吳啟明委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12642.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12647.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
好 召委 議會通人 請內政部部長議員好部長 部長 現在我聽你接受執行我聽到說 我們的村議長發放了1.5個月是會如期來發放 這點我再次肯定因為這是我們的才華化進程 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12667.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12691.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
在我們上個會期我都做召委來推動對6月19通過的對總算會讓我們最辛苦的里長他們得到一個應得的因為在法律上都見解說他們是廣泛公務人員事實上他們如果說有障礙事件也是比照公務人員所以這一點對他們不公平所以這1.5個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12693.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12695.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
這點由我們內政部前額來發放這應該是我們內政部剛才我們黃建平委員有所說這就是我們這條消息要說這是內政部來前額來積存讓我們的村里長在這幾年可以得到1.5個月的年終獎金這頭一點再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12718.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12721.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
在這裏本席也是非常感謝保證不管說在因公性質的部分包含我們的警察 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12729.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12747.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
因公性質的腐蝕菌也好或是他的遺孀的安排這點我本席在此在處跟你傾聽再來就是因為我們針對說今天是用的地方制度法但是我們地方制度法你要再設立的時候你有感覺說我可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12750.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12755.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
在城市委員會 城市委員 城市發言 我就說我們的財務法過去也有完整的增加因為我們沒有經過充分的討論其實你現在排擠到什麼 排擠到原住民的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12768.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12788.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
排除到離島的權益所以說在這個部分我希望說稍微是不是說今天擺這個地方制度法是不是可以說妥善跟所有全國的各縣市大家來做溝通取得共識甚至排公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12790.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12800.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這樣我認為一個修法的程序可以說是更加完備還不去做生意後再參與很多的問題發生這都是大家沒有完畏看的所以說在這個部分我本身也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12809.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12832.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
調我們的原住民委員會我們114年是經費總共的預算經費有123億包括我們原住民的老人年金健保補助法律義務支出有52億以及支應原住民保留地的進化補償的經費以現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12837.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12858.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
新的財化法已經三度通過未來排擠到原住民也補償原住民地區的建設服務族人及照顧長者的經費只剩14.5億這排擠的非常的嚴重所以說這都是怎樣的這就是代表過去這財化法沒通過討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12865.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12884.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
結果一位就通過 現在原住民大家都緊張了過去中央政府在這幾屆都是在雇原住民原住民的權益 原住民和平地人的比例都是高於平地人 都好幾倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12885.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12888.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以說你這樣就衝擊了原住民當然對他們來講都傷害非常大這造成當初他們都沒有去考慮到你說離島也是一樣所以說這都是 大家說我們一定每一個部門來做修改一定要說大家來充分來溝通甚至說邀請我們各界的 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12911.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12922.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
不管說地方政府首長以及我們公聽會這樣才有辦法討算一部好法因為這都要對未來對社會交代我們都是要這個國家越來越好所以說這個部分我也請保證你一定要堅持只要是好的我們當然都是一起努力去推動你說剛才有沒有好再說自愛難行這個部分我們都是要三思是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12942.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12947.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
感謝委員 委員你在做教育的時候對原住民這麼多條例照顧 我們都非常清楚但是今天你在討論這個地方制度發的部分 真的碰到一些自愛難行剛才我們都希望說可以照顧在直轄市的山地區公所 包括在新北市也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12963.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12989.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
但是這個回到財政收支發文法如果沒辦法清措高大公比來下售到縣市政府的時候他的財源會有明定需要保障3D區公所裡面的債務或者是他的財源的話可能就會碰到困擾會變成說大家自己去分這些部分把其他的非原住民區公所的預算反而把它稀釋掉那這個部分可能真的是要好好討論才會真正有 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12990.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
13000.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
幫助到 應該幫助到了 包括原住民的區公所對 好 謝謝因為不斷 這都是為了未來為了不要再有未來的爭議為了這個社會 為了這個國家可以更好我們都是共同努力 謝謝好 接著請吳思堯 書記長幹事長幹事長 是是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
13027.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
13038.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
4加1哇 內政委員會都是如此的席次如今只有4加1 今天有好多內容好 有請部長幹事長你好 等一下抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13052.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13053.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
因為今天一次排了非常多的議案我也要請 懇請這個主席如果有這麼多的議案需要有充分的時間讓大家可以對話甚至很多議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
13070.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
13073.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
地方政府還沒有聚焦過很多的財源如何能夠籌措也都完全沒有一個討論所以該有公聽會的我們都不要僭越了充分討論才是民主這樣的精神那我非常遺憾這個部長您從過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
13090.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13117.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
部長之外 擔任過立委 擔任過行政院的秘書長行政立法協調 您非常的熟悉有沒有任何你看過哪個案子立法院三讀通過之後然後可以不送出立法院然後不讓總統進行後續的公告按下快轉鍵的 也是立法委員按下暫停鍵的 也是立法委員而且剛好都是我們的徐欣盈 朝委 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13119.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13135.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我尊重委員以前在行政院秘書長的時候那個時候我們在協調的法案那都知道說三讀通過以後就按照一定的時程啦那目前這個狀況比較少聽過過去我看在野黨的委員提了一些舉例說過去也曾經發生過但是牛頭不對馬嘴 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13145.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13149.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
過去曾經發生過的是行政部門剛好有其他相關的法案就在當下在排審當中所以由行政立法兩院磋商之後認為可以並同其他的法律審查過後再一併送請總統公告這是既有的慣例也是唯一有的慣例不是在野黨的委員說過去都這樣所以現在可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13174.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13200.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
现在这种又委员会的交委一纸的公文就暂停咨询总统公布立法院三读过后的法律这种选择性的影响公告法律的启程前所未见前所未见从来没有发生过交委可以比院长大吗交委可以比宪法大吗交委可以不顾113个立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13204.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13228.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
審議通過的法案我說在內政委員會就選辦法好了可以一分鐘送出委員會按下快轉鍵的是徐欣盈交委按下法律三讀不移送總統知請公告的暫停鍵的也是徐欣盈交委從來沒有發生過回到今天的地方制度法 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13229.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13251.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
完全没有经过多方的社会还有不管是社会专业界或者是各级政府的讨论我真的还是希望妥善的讨论再行处理下一页我们来看看为蒋关键市长的量身定做的地质法第三位副市长的这件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13252.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13267.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
我想这非常清楚就是为了我们蒋市长量身定做为了蒋市长未来的人士来做超前部署或是还有什么选举的思维在里面吗下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13268.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13284.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
其实过去因人设置台北市政府已经有非常多不好的恶例例如说我过去立法院的同事林毅华委员他受到蒋万安市长的邀请要去出任副市长 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13285.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13289.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
但是就为了让大安区的补选可以拖过补选的那个期程所以2022年内定出任台北市副市长的林亦华立委就延后到2023的2月才上任硬生生的让大安区剩余的立委任期不足一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13309.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13314.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
依法不能再補選就硬生生的讓大安區的選民們公民朋友們那一年沒有立委可以服務大家為大家發聲背棄選民的承諾然後為了自己政治的方便因緣設置現在來修地質法下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13331.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13350.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
第三位副市長還要增加很多的公帑支出適合不適合真的可以討論250萬是不是一個合理的門檻這都可以再思量但是本席反對因人設置的修法博鳥你同意我的意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13352.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13378.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我們需要有完整的配套措施才能夠設置比較多的副市長就是我剛所說的不是只有副市長這個職位下面還有其他的局處或是公務人員那這個部分要從長計議跟考量甚至今天的修法還有其他縣市也要有其他新增副縣長的這個人事的修法也是要一併考量好我最後下一頁下一頁我想說請 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13380.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13393.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
部長 我們多多努力同樣是數字3我希望今天在內政委員會通過的不是因緣設置讓台北市就增加了第三位的副市長而是我們能不能夠來成就另外一個3 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13396.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13416.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
就是我們從地制法未來修法的方向來協助全國的地方民代或者是中央民代從憲法保障的四分之一婦女保障提升到三分之一的單一性別保障它保障的不是只有女性男性的參政者也可能受到保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13417.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13424.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
譬如說現在事實上全國從地方市議員、直轄市議員、鄉鎮市民代表general的average的數字我們的女性的當選率、參政率已經來到29.56%我們等於實質台灣具備女性參政達三分之一的這種民主經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13439.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13452.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
但是呢小選區因為他的席次少於四席的話就不是用憲法四分之一婦女保障的名額以至於現在全國六百八十一個鄉鎮市區的代表選舉裡頭有46%315區零女性越偏鄉人數越少 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13461.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13471.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
越基層越地方女性的參政相對就沒有如同我在台北市的都會區受到這麼多公民的肯定而全國的議員選區也有22%沒有半位女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13479.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13483.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
我想我們身為女力 女力從政今天是因為剛好看到《地質法》33條放進來審議所以我藉這個機會 民進黨團還有我們倡議的范雲委員我們未來會循正式的程序再來列案提案我相信同為女性的學信義召委也一定會支持但是就這個議案今天也許來不及我也認為不是提案就要審查就要通過 而是要廣泛的公聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13508.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13527.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
台灣是不是要更進步讓婦女的參政可以提升到三分之一而且我要講不是婦女參政它是單一性別未來可能保障的也是男性的從政者所以說我們需要更多的社會的公聽讓各界的意見可以進來所以依此我希望未來在這個地質法33條的討論能夠有公聽會變成今天已經排審的議案以及我也期許我也要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13536.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13555.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
內政部對於這樣女性單一性別三分之一的參政的保障部裡頭應當可以積極研議部長您的看法呢非常謝謝幹事長的提點我想今天大部分討論的意願方面有關於四分之一變成女性參政的一個盲點 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13556.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13581.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
所以我們把它降到三分之一的話有助於未來尤其是基層的這個民代包括鄉鎮市區的民代會有更多優秀的女性來參政或者是更多優秀的年輕人那我們一定會從修法的方向趕快提出來那也希望說包括內政委員會或是我們的大院能夠也用這個配套措施的方式來幫忙把地方製度法33條修正的更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13582.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13598.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
所以部裡頭應該會有院版提出來支持這樣子的倡議嗎如果希望我們提會比較快的話我們當然可以提沒有問題那希望部裡頭能夠有正向的進步的行政院版的修法我們連同今天的法案再次懇請召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13600.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13609.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
也不需要為快而快我們可以召開更多的公聽會來收集各界的意見連同今天很多的提案事實上也都欠缺社會的討論也不需要一再的只按下快轉鍵 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13614.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13618.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那我也不知道今天按下了快轉鍵什麼時候召委又按下暫停鍵大家領巾審完的不知道會不會送出去不好意思今天佔用一點時間基本上我認為內政委員會我跑這麼多委員會發言的時間永遠最短沒有辦法暢所欲言但謝謝主席給我多一點的時間辛苦了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13636.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13660.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
您用的時間已經跟其他委員會一樣多了好謝謝那本席在這裡我們要特別說明這個不要民進黨不要太緊張不要太緊張來到內政委員會特別緊張不要很多事情不要都是政治考量不要都是都是政治考量我們歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13661.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13681.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
吳思瑤幹事長下午我們在討論的時候是可以可以一起來的沒有問題那再來就是我們尊重每一位委員的質詢跟發言但是本席對於斷章取義或者是這個栽贓造謠本席深表遺憾再來第三點這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13684.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13703.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
一邊不給開會霸佔主席台干擾議事的是民進黨一邊又說要討論然後人海戰術冗長發言的也是民進黨所以我們也請社會大眾大家可以透過轉播這個自由公論好那接著繼續進行本席請牛許廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13712.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13732.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
謝謝主席時間不長 席之如今這跟主題無關的我們就少講一點內政部長有請我也沒下去辛苦了 部長今天我們討論地方制度法的修法當然大家比較關注的一個重點基本上就是說在副市長的部分部長你知道我們行政院下面有幾個政委嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13734.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13748.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
有位吧其實還蠻多的啦對不對有位其實我們政委的工作主要是做什麼跨部會的協調對其實是跨部協調對不對那基本上以部長的了解在縣市政府這樣一個層級負責跨局處協調的是誰縣市政府對在地方政府的層級我們中央叫部會你說市政府裡面是誰對誰負責跨局處一般來講應該是市府的秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13759.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13786.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
叫府一層啦叫府一層就是說市長、副市長對不對秘書長秘書長或副秘書長或副秘書長對不對其實相對來講喔雖然做的事情有點不太一樣但其實業務都非常非常的繁重那我想再請問部長就是說直轄市之所以為直轄市的原因是什麼就我們從本來的北高然後變成六都對不對這樣合併升格最近甚至大家討論新竹要不要合併升格等等直轄市為什麼要變做直轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13788.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13814.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
不管是人口或者是說他在經濟發展或是他扮演一個比較龍頭的角色各有不同的這個層級所以我想變為直轄市他也需要經過行政程序才能變為直轄市而不是說變就變你剛剛除了人口之外你這邊有講了城市的特性對不對講了服務員講了產業所以講他一定在地方政治的角度裡面他扮演是龍頭的角色所以其實部長剛剛的回答就表示說人口並不是判斷是否為直轄市的唯一標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13815.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13831.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
對不對所以今天很多人去談說我們要不要著雨增加這個副市長的人數本期其實認為應該用個比較開放而且甚至是用鼓勵的方式來做處理啊為什麼呢因為除了我剛剛講你現在中央其實有很多的政務委員可以協調但地方相對來講做跨局處的人手是不足的之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13832.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13859.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我以桃園來舉例 桃園現在的各局處是32個已經達到了上限那如果是兩位副市長的情況之下其實一個副市長實務上在地方政治的角度來講副市長就是一個人督導大概一半的局處所以一個人就要督導16個局處其實是非常非常辛苦的一件事情我們希望中央我們在討論修法的時候可以用一個照顧地方可以地方更多人才也好或者是更多人力的角度也好來提升地方政治的一個品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13860.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13884.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
如果這個副市長的人數可以增加到三個每一個人要督導的局數大概就是到十個其實也十個或十一個其實也是非常多啦所以我覺得左右增加人數是有必要的那剛剛很多人其實都提到了才化法本席完全同意就是說才化法的修正完畢之後市權要做調整這個我覺得是本來就是應該這樣那麼這個市權的調整必然伴隨著地方業務量的增加嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13884.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13895.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我拿到了更多的錢我當然要做更多的事啊對不對我們不是說地方只拿錢不做事嘛相對來講當然要花點時間來做討論但當市權增加的時候我們難道不需要多一點的人力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13896.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13923.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
我地方得到的資源增加了市政的業務增加了那我在人力上面尤其是跨局處的業務通常是最困難的嘛單一局處負責的很單純嘛這個局把它處理掉就好可是跨局處的這有這個的為難那個有那個的想法對不對所以就要由府的高層來介入協調多一點這樣的人力其實就會改善地方政治的品質啦從這樣子的角度來看部長會不會比較覺得可以接受就是說直轄市的部分由副市長綠定為三人這樣的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13924.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13938.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
謝謝牛委員的指教我想委員有提到其實在做協調工作的不是只有副首長包括秘書長 副秘書長那其實在縣市地方政府也有所謂的參議或是參事這樣的角色那最主要是在於說首長要授權要處理什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13940.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13956.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
我相信你牛委員所在的這個桃園市也是一樣不是兩個副市長工作量是一半一半不過只有五十五十都會看狀況而定最重要是他專業所以副首長的工作只有在處理這個協調的工作我覺得未免把他這個層級落低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13957.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13972.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
我今天只是舉一個例子我想這樣所以我剛才特別提到說我們在考量的時候不要有單一只用這個選舉人口也是戶籍人口來計算你還會考慮到很多其他的因素但你考慮其他因素的時候我一直在強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13973.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13994.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
這個縣市政府在處理自己的行政業務的時候不會只有一個首長而是首長下面很多局處要不要跟著改變或改進這樣其實你在協調的時候才會互相焊隔像我提到其實我們也問過台南市政府桃園市我們也問了台南市政府他不認為說增設副市長對他們有什麼功能他要增設的是捷運局他希望我們幫忙 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13996.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
14019.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
因為他29個局數是他的天花板又會買200萬他現在25個所以當然可以支持我的意思是說我們討論的過程當中每個縣市政府有他的看法也不是互相拉扯所以我們才知道說其實這個不是只有用選舉人口但是因為提案的委員他是用這個戶籍人口作為單一的標準的話這樣討論的話是縣型的制度是用人口作為單一標準所以他可能沒有辦法要增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
14021.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
14041.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
剛剛那個昭偉也再度提醒就是說委員很早就提案進來我們應該事先做研究但是我們不曉得一下子研究12個完全不同的法案那個對我們來講其實很大的困擾還有再加上在立法院有通過新的譬如說財劃法財劃法到我們這邊就真的是卡住了我們不曉得到底要不要下售下去所以這個部分要一個冗長的一個討論的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14043.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14068.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這本席不反對要多花時間討論因為我想有理性我跟您報告一下我相信召委也不會就是說今天不討論就處理一定也是要讓大家來做討論大家都知道所以我今天因為答詢時間有限所以我今天是先聚焦在一個題目因為今天很多版本進來對不對所以我們先我大概討論一個副市長的問題待會討論另外一個行政區劃的問題大概就這兩個就好那剩下的東西待會在討論時間來做思考本席的主張我們把在答詢的過程表達得清楚一點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
14069.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
14088.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
直轄市之所以為直轄市絕對不是只有因為人口它有服務員的問題比如說新北你要不要特案處理我都覺得很應該四百多萬人的一個城市對不對它有更多人我覺得也可以做思考都市的定位產業的特性都要來做調整所以以現行的制度你只以人口作為一刀切的標準我認為是有限周延可以有別的參數進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
14089.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
14112.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那如果說部裡面有部裡面的想法其實我們也願意聽一聽行政端的一些思考跟考量你也許有部的版本院的版本只要它可以增加地方政府的人力好讓地方政府推動市政可以更順利我想大家都會樂觀其成好不好所以這部分我希望這個我們的內政部用一個比較開放而且用一個比較支援地方的這樣子的一個角度這樣子才是順應配合這個財劃法的修正啦好我這個題我們先到此為止第二個我要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
14114.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
14130.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
因為其他委員也有版本也在地方制度法裡面去提了有關於縣市合併升格的這樣子的一個配套措施啦對不對但是這本席要藉這樣的機會去談另外一個問題就是說我們之所以要在地方制度法去談論這件事情其實是因為我們缺乏一套行政區域化調整的一個遊戲規則對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
14133.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
14161.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
這個部長我如果沒有記錯當時您應該是立委啊也就是我們現在賴清德總統當初在做行政院院長的時候他其實就有意識到這個問題嘛他當初認為三個法要改善台灣的政治一個叫查法法要修正一個叫地質法要修正第三個叫行政區劃法要修正當初其實也有提出院版的行政區劃法本期其實是非常期待也非常樂觀因為大到縣市的合併升格小到地方生活圈啊這個行政區有沒有辦法做合理的調整有一個遊戲規則是所有人公認的第一步 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
14162.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
14182.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以我覺得今天我們現在試圖了透過這個答詢透過待會的法案的討論也許可以把很多問題先收束然後先處理簡單的或者是再經過討論沒關係但我希望在行政區調整的這一部分我們其實比較期待看到的是行政區劃法的這樣子一個草案請問現在行政院有沒有重新提出來的打算 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
14183.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
14205.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我們現在內政部經過這個專家學者我們委託研究之後呢在113年9月24已經把研議的結果送到行政院那剛剛您所提到地方制度法鄉鎮市的行政區劃法或者是說跟那個行政區劃是否作為公民投票等等這個四項議題都把它列進去所以其實109年在行政區劃的程序法裡面我們就有草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
14206.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
14226.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
對 但這個草案什麼時候會送出來因為這本席的選區我的選區龜山就是跟一大堆新北的地方做交界嘛我知道他就有生活權整合的問題那邊的鄉親就很期待說我什麼時候可以有一個討論的平台我什麼時候有一個機會把這個東西好好的去討論本來我們很期待在賴清德總統做行政院長的時候這個東西可以過關我們在地方我那時候做議員就要開始討論了結果不知道為什麼就沒有過 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
14226.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
14254.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
但沒關係這本席也有本席的行政區號的草案也已經送到立法院基本上就是大量的參考當初的這個院版那我想請教一下現在的院版跟當初的那個院版有很多的差異嗎還是其實大同小異我剛跟您報告我是113年9月24就是最近又做了一次思考對不對對對對但是因為院裡頭還沒還沒還沒告訴我們說他行政院要不要繼續審查那要不要送到這個大院來就你所知這個內容跟過去的院版有沒有差很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
14255.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14282.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
差異不大差異不大嘛差異不會太大可能跟那個牛委員所了解的差不多OK 那我就希望部裡面多爭取啦因為既然今天開始要討論地方制度這是一件大事多花一點時間討論本行是贊成的但是不同的事情也許有不同的法源來解決的時候它也是讓事情簡化的一個方式所以我們希望藉著這樣的答案請求加速一下這個行政區劃法這個院版的這個草案可以加速的來做處理希望這個部長在你們行政團隊開會的時候可以積極的來提出來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14283.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14296.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我希望在第三會期的時候,我們行政區法部門也可以進到具體的討論跟主張,這樣可以嗎?好,我們來努力,因為我們就送到行政院去了送到行政院去了,好,沒關係這本席也來催促一下,我們一起努力接下來我們請徐欣盈召委資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14315.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14323.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
部長好我想今天我本席質詢就針對一點因為我們時間有限剛剛很多人也討論過 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14329.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14345.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
本席也发现部长是蛮务实的我也刚好发现这段时间跟部长的互动我发现您这个实事求是所以我查一下原来您是一个优秀的理工人才本身是理工我跟您一样都在工研院服务过 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14346.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14357.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那我們今天就這個很多委員關心的直轄市的副市長或縣市政府的副縣長的議題我們希望不要政治考量我們務實的來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14360.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14372.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
首先目前直轄市的副市長跟縣市政府的副縣長可以分別設置兩人跟一人這個是民國88年規定到現在的對不對沒錯那已經經過了快30年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14376.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14389.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那所以當時的時空背景還有到這個20幾年來的環境變遷這個整個社會不斷的變遷這個變化就很大了那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14391.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14406.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
我們調整這個副市長或副縣長剛剛您有說跨局處整合不只是副市長或副縣長其實副縣長還有一個很重要縣長一個人他需要分身 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14407.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14436.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
他這個難以分身啊其實您也擔任過立委我們在這個選區裡面尤其直轄市或縣市那縣長他有時候重要會議要主持那有時候又有重要的這個很多的重要的工程或重要的行程或者是要去傾聽地方的一個聲音這都是一個行政首長非常具備需要具備的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14437.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14456.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
現在本席接著第二個請教您如果我們設這個規定三位副市長或兩位副縣長那如果他不補滿比如說您說台南市如果規劃三個副市長他只想請只聘請兩位可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14457.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14476.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
我想沒有問題可以嘛對不對我剛有說有天花板跟地板的問題所以如果說天花板訂三個還有縣市政府訂兩個那因為您也有剛剛私下有跟我提就是有些縣市政府等於增加一個副市長或副縣長他有財政的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14477.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14487.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
就是可能會考量各方面那個就是行政首長就當時的市長或縣長他自己要去考量所以他要聘三個兩個還是一個那這個我想這個是首長首長他自己會來規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14497.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14515.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
再來本席也想請教您一個縣市不管二十幾萬人口到新竹縣五十幾萬人口都有一位副縣長任何一個直轄市本席看了一下最少人口的是台南市也有185萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14517.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14538.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
所以你看五十萬的各縣市它都有一位副縣長那當人口多 幅員遼闊的時候其實設置三個並不為過那您一直的提到說 還有配套 本席認同你說的配套但是那些配套跟增加副市長或副縣長的人數 它是不抵觸的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14538.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14567.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
等於是副市長增加了副縣長增加了那未來需要配套的包括您說的有些這個單位他局處需要增加確實因為生活圈因為環境的變化因為時空的各種的發展他可能需要增加這個新的局處那這個都可以持續的我們可以來想辦法讓他精益求精越來越好所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14568.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14577.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那六個直轄市最少的都有185萬最多的有404萬新北市所以是不是我們給他一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14580.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14603.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
法定的可以有三席然後因為從185到404我們是不是也可以考慮增加就是說好有三席如果人口怎麼樣的時候他得再增加一席這樣子就可以符合等於是人口特別多他真的確實分身乏術的時候的首長他可以有 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14604.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14622.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
這個副首長來代替他您認同本席的說法嗎那個剛剛那個昭緯你的這個設計的這個規範我其實不反對但是我剛有特別提到你的配套措施是什麼要講清楚讓六個直轄市都覺得說這樣子是對六個直轄市都是公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14623.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14644.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
而不是針對一個直轄市公司我們沒有針對哪一個直轄市當然可能提案的委員本席不是提案委員但是我們而是提案委員提出來以後我們就針對他提案我們來思考這個面向的問題那您剛剛有講這六個直轄市您都有去問過兩個直轄市OK四個直轄市沒意見所以這個直轄市針對這個部分他們應該OK |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14650.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14665.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那縣市的部分有一個NO嘛一個NO可能就是您說的他覺得裁員的問題那增加了兩個他可以不聘嘛他可以維持一個有七個OK三個沒意見那這樣看起來其實針對這個副市長或副縣長這個好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14669.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14687.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
也還好沒有其他什麼樣的大的爭議吧是如果不用政治考量所以因為本席看到很多這個執政黨的委員都覺得怎麼樣怎麼樣但我們平心而論我們從每一個面向我們來討論尤其增加這個副市長或副縣長 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14688.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14700.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
也是我們尊重地方自治的需求還有很多委員都說要給予各縣市包含各直轄市更多的彈性與他們的專業分工和需求分工您認同嗎是 我剛剛有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14704.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14732.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
就是我並不反對因為這是最後到大院來做最後的決定或者是說有黨團寫上我都尊重但是我特別提到所謂的增加一個副市長或增加一個副縣長那你下面的工作還有你未來的財政收支劃分譬如說你增加一個副縣長能不能爭取更多的經費或者爭取更多的這個財源那這個部分的很多縣市你一開放到縣市政府去談的時候他所有的意見都會一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14733.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14746.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那我剛跟很多人報告了不是 你剛這個回答就有一個問題就是說今天開放但是它要不要設到天花板要不要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14748.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14766.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
副縣長或副市長要不要到規定法定的天花板首長他可以決定嘛所以他也可以維持現狀啊您剛剛也回答了啊如果你按照這樣講說他要維持現狀我也沒意見對我也沒意見當然您也只能說沒意見因為不好意思說贊成嘛不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14770.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14781.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
我覺得還在審慎一點我的意思是說我們要把這個法律上面的規範講清楚那法律上的規範講清楚現在我們盡量在迴避因為所有的縣市長都是民選我們就盡量迴避藍綠縣市長之間這樣子不同的一個政治考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14787.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14808.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
所以我們必須要就是您說的民選有時候藍有時候綠這個誰也沒辦法預估所以我們現在譬如說你開放更多的副市長或開放更多的副縣長下一屆誰當選沒有人知道所以這個只有藍綠比較開放本席剛剛講那麼多就是我們掺著從過去到現在整個包含現在的社會狀況社會變遷需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14811.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14830.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我們覺得你的天花板可以提高但樓地板你這個維持不變那你行政首長你有裁量權嘛那包含你要設的多那就像您說的當然這個我們下午可以討論就是一些裁員各方面的那但是本心要強調的是您所說的配套跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14832.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14855.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
訂出來這個今天要討論的法案他不抵觸嘛不抵觸啊我希望給其他的這個部會也有一個他們發聲的管道一起來討論不是說只有我的意見才是意見雖然是地方製度法的主管機關但是人跟市跟財源這三個事情最好能夠一併來考量好那我們下午可以好好討論謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14862.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14864.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
好 謝謝徐欣儀召委下一位請鍾嘉斌委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14878.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14898.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
主席 再當委員先進 列席了政府軍方首長 官員會長 觀眾夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生那麼因為部長就在面前了 我就不用再請了那倒是主席剛剛說 我們下午還要再討論在這個發言之前呢 還是要跟主席表達一下因為東央都是擔任委員會的召委今天我們看到了突然之間 一個繼續審查 本來只有兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14901.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14912.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
後來增加了十項那這十項當中呢除了第十二項呢盧委員的部分條文之外我看這其他九項當中啊一共呢就有有六個 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14914.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14922.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
項目是互相有重疊的今天我們來準備這麼多的項目像我突然到這裡發現了居然有一個33條要修正可能我們待會我準備的個人準備的是55條 56條我是覺得主席安排這麼多的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14932.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14944.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
但我們只剩一個下午可以討論真的實在是會讓地方尤其地方制度法關係的不是我們立法委員在這個時間的問責內容還關係到地方的發展那麼舉例來講我這邊就開始來請教不見得只有一個下午可以討論你們民進黨的委員都太緊張了好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14953.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14979.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
你們都太緊張了不是只有一個下午本席剛剛也都回覆了很多個委員因為沒有聽到剛剛主席的宣告那麼我就開始在進入正題之前我先請教一下劉部長第33條我看了一下這些意見內容蘇清泉委員提案委員他說提案重點在1萬人以下的鄉鎮市其代表會的代表總額每減少1000人減少1席到減少5席5席是基本 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14980.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14998.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
屏東縣呢,因為大概跟很多的農業縣一樣,人口外流,各鄉鎮人口都在減少,但是我看經過內政部的統計之後呢,你們說會有部分的代表會會減少,那有的代表會會增加,會有這樣的情況喔?不是人口都在減少當中嗎?什麼情況之下,這個代表會的習才會成長呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14999.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
15006.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我先跟那個委員回覆一下現在有關於鄉鎮市民代表會席次影響的部分有38個那裡面的減少一席的有7個減少兩席的有31個我是問說什麼情況會增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
15013.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
15028.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
增加的原因是目前1萬人以上的最多11人1萬人以下是什麼情況會增加增加的是原來已經減少目前已經有9個鄉鎮因為降到1萬人以下已經減少變成5個 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
15030.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
15055.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
對對對 七個七個 那如果這個條文通過它會變成再往上增加變成八個或九個是 但是有更多的鄉鎮會減少好 我了解 實際部長我就在說的地方制度法 遷移法動全身 知識體大其實像這種條文如果沒有到地方去開公聽會我們還真的很難去綜合屏東縣有三十個鄉鎮包括離島 包括原鄉真的要好好討論但是今天我要討論的重點呢今天我們的標題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
15057.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
15078.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
今天這個地質法修法我們看到了這55條56條到底是要解誰的套是要加惠我們全國的縣市地方施政還是稠容考量來我們請教一下部長到底人口數面積跟服務員全場服務員就是地理區域的長度哪些您覺得你過去也擔任過地方的副首長你覺得對地方政府的影響最大 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
15082.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
15105.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我想都有影響吧都有影響地方政府效能最大應該是公務人員吧是的不是只是在上面的副首長其實我跟您都一樣擔任副首長其實充足的基層公務員才是最重要的觀測到政府地方效能的要看人口數面積跟服務員這些都要討論我們看下一張其實我們看一下舉例以這個台北市跟桃園市哪一個面積大桃園嘛人口數誰多 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
15110.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
15129.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
未來戶籍人口戶籍人口的話現在台北市比較多但是未來桃園市會增加的非常快好那我們看一看桃園人口繼續在成長到明年九月台北市就不足250萬了相對的可能桃園還會繼續成長結果呢國民黨委員11月提案說直轄市要設三個副市長那是增加在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
15134.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
15155.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
以這個委員所提供的資料來看的話是增加台北市台北市所以只有台北市人口在逐漸減少面積沒有比別人大的台北市反而會增加所以我們就不禁疑惑這樣的制度設計是量身定智為特定人士還是說基於整個地方政府的有效行政效率的推動我們往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
15155.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
15165.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
好那台北市人口變化我們看一下從12年到現在它其實人口是在減少的在12年5月的時候呢到13年9月台北市 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
15167.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
15185.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
達任命三個副市長門檻的呢他已經達到了喔他還是只有兩個副市長結果呢現在人口在下降了他反而呢要把他的副市長增加了那麼請問蔣市長蔣萬恩市長呢他在113年9月15號到目前都兩個副市長你覺得台北市政有沒有受到影響啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
15187.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
15203.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
跟中委稍微報告一下現在他們是三位副市長他們現在是三位副市長因為他們在8月報上來的時候250萬所以我們就是三位副市長現在還是三位副市長所以在這之前他這兩位副市長的時候台北市政府運作有障礙 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
15207.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
15228.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
我想不便回答因為北京台北市政府也有列席我們行政院的院會好那我們來往下看所以提出這樣的一個地制法的修法那他的人口數在下降當中如果不修法是不是最近任命的第三位副市長或三位副市長當中會有一位就必須要去職 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
15230.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
15246.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我們大概是在下一屆才試用下一屆才試用那如果說他下一屆試用他如果現在三位有人跑去選舉了空了那一位在下一屆試用前可以補嗎沒有修法的狀況之下大概就不能夠補沒有修法的狀況就不能補了所以大家聽清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
15247.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
15265.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
所以目前我們大家在那邊忙趙偉很辛苦拍了這麼多案結果呢聽來聽去就是台北市剛剛的趕快的在113年9月之前他說沒關係兩個副市長趕快的提升為第三個副市長然後呢要趕快推動修法因為呢萬一三位副市長中有人去選舉選完了不管有沒有選上如果沒有選上 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
15268.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
15288.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
如果沒有修法他就回不來了所以我們希望我們今天的地質法的修法應該是可長可遠可長可久不要是因人設事那也希望我們主席能夠像涉及到六都以外像剛剛那種鄉鎮市民代表會突然之間跑出這樣一個提案我們希望要慎重是不是能夠有到地方上去多聽聽鄉鎮市的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
15290.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
15299.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
讓這些代表們來表達心聲尤其是農業縣鄉鎮多那人口少的部分這個知識體大希望能夠召開公聽會那就謝謝主席也謝謝部長好 接下來請省發會委員省發會委員省發會委員不在請盧憲一委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
15321.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
15335.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
主席我們請部長休息一下我請原民會副主委跟我們財政部我們政務處長好 請原民會中副主委以及財政部阮次長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
15338.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
15366.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
今天這個主題就是剛才我們已經有委員有諮詢過不過就本席的立場還是要再提一次就是關於我們修正我們山地原住民都會區也就是十年來都沒有改善的這個問題去年單選以後到各個區的時候尤其是高雄的納馬下區長還有我們台中市的和平區區長他們就是希望我一定要把這件事情提上來也就是說十年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
15367.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
15379.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我們執政黨也全面執政八年邁入第九年如果沒有人來討論這個問題的話很像永遠都沒有辦法改進我們先看一下我們現在的差距第二張 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
15381.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
15407.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
高雄市桃園區 高雄市那馬下區 高雄市茂林區在2012年的補助收入也就是說他們平均大概去年的話是每個區大概平均是1.7億那我們看我們別的原鄉就是山地鄉 金峰鄉 達仁鄉 烏台鄉他們平均是3.16億你看這個差距將近快要到一倍了他們的人口幾乎差不多那我要特別說的是那馬下已經特別偏遠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
15408.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
15432.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
那這個差距又越來越遠如果接下來再10年的話就是將近10億的差距如果這樣算的話超過10億那他們已經地儲偏遠了收入又那麼少哪裡來的錢可以建設地方我們要發展光光要希望那邊的我們的鄉親可以照顧到可是這個差距實在是太離譜了對不對我們財政部這邊能不能做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
15433.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
15461.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
是的 我了解委員的想法事實上我們也很關切原民區的財政收支的問題所以我們在去年的8月份也邀請相關的指甲市跟原民區政府來溝通基本上我們是希望指甲市能夠在目前因為它現在目前稅收狀況比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
15462.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
15466.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
也就是時增數比較比這個預算是多比較多的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
15467.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
15494.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
能夠盡量支援這個園民區的相關的建設另外我們在8月29號還另外行文給這個指甲市一定要落實這樣的一個規定另外我也跟委員報告一下就是目前的修法幾個修法的提案那修法提案目前是這樣我們園民區啊園民區它的目前不管是舉債也好財政也好都是跟指甲市是混在一起的 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
15494.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
15519.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
是混在一起的我看一下我的修法大概是83-3我先念一下也就是說修正條文它增加了3D原住民區的稅捐3D原住民區的公共債務83條之7也就是說希望3D原住民區的實施自治所需的財源應該逐年檢討也就是說1234這邊有增列 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
15523.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
15546.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
我就不再說明大家可以看一下83條之九是新增的也就是九十十一十二都是新增那就主要就是說三地原住民區應分配之國稅準用財政收支劃分法官員相正式規定辦理第十也是這樣那第十二條有一個就是我們希望在原住民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
15547.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
15567.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
也就是現在的所謂的去公所的秘書原本是八子等希望能夠調升到八或九子等這邊那這是之前沒有過的一個提案因為現在是直轄市它既然已經變成直轄市的話希望它原本的層級可以提高有這樣的一個歸納那我剛剛看了就是我們內政部提出的一些建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
15569.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
15589.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
在他的一個所謂的意見表所有跟副主委報告所有的區公所都希望趕快趕快辦理希望能夠通過通過這個提案然後趕快辦理只有新北市我來念一下就是說公共債務的部分應該涉算未償餘額比例的時候應該建議人評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
15591.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
15617.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
自籌財源變化對這下事件未殘餘與有比例的影響也就是說其實在83條之3跟11我這邊有提到然後台中市政府關於稅捐跟公共債務的部分他也提出意見我的83條之3跟11也有提到那高雄市政府是希望他們能夠依照財政收支劃分法第38條之1有中央補助來完成他們這些財政的一些缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
15618.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
15642.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
那我在83之9跟之10都有提到那希望我們財政部這邊能夠與你接納或者是說看有沒有意見給我好不好我是不是可以簡單說明一下可以嗎大概基本上剛才我也跟委員報告過就是說現在原民區的他的不管是財政也好或者是在舉債也好是跟職業是併在一起那現在是要把它抽出來要準用 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
15643.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
15657.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這個一般的鄉鎮市的這個這個方式來處理的話那這樣子會牽涉到這個各地方政府的裁員跟舉債的這個空間的問題這部分我們還要再深入再研議另外我是覺得要解決這個園民區的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
15660.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
15677.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這個相關的這個財政的問題可能不只是修這個第一制法可能還涉及到公債法還有就是像類似像財政收入劃分法這些都要通盤來考量那另外我想剛才部長也一直提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
15677.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
15698.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
就是我們的這個財化法最近修正以後那麼這個有關的相關的這個中央跟地方的財政的收支的劃分跟事前的調整這部分那我想在整個在處理這個原住民的這個財政的問題的時候這部分你要納入考量好謝謝那我大概知道了謝謝謝謝副主委謝謝市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
15705.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
15707.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
好 接著請鄭天才委員主席有請部長還有阮次長還有中副主委請劉部長 阮次長以及中副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
15735.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
15762.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
三位好 辛苦了這個高津素美委員還有盧憲一委員會同本席都有共同提案這個地方制度法針對山地原住民期財政自治的事項我先請教一下這個次長上一次為了因應五都 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
15764.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15792.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
為了因應成立五都 五個直轄市所以修了這個地方制度法當時有沒有修財政收支劃分法當時沒有啊沒有修 對不對那現在要修地方制度法你們一直強調還有財政收支劃分法 還有公共債務法我們現在三地原住民七 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15793.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15816.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
他本來是山地鄉有原住民自治的地位只不過當時修的時候漏了沒有把原住民把山地鄉烏來等到屏東的三個還有復興區和平區這幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15823.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15847.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
修的時候落了所以沒有他本來字啊他本來是地方自治啊對不對修的時候落了然後這幾年修把他的自治列為自治期了有了代表會對不對 七長也用選舉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15850.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15876.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
在這麼多年的當中從上次修把山地鄉把它改為區山地原住民區之後然後上次也把這個山地原住民區區長選舉代表會要有改了之後你們應該就要去配合去修正對不對無論是嚴明會財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15880.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15894.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
內政部就應該去配合本來應該要做的事情是變成立法委員去做做了然後你們又說還要修財產收支方法還要修公債務法怎麼會呢我們是回到原來的回到原來的怎麼還要去跟鄉鎮公所去協調協調什麼我們是回到原來的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15911.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15936.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
還要經過他們的同意我跟委員報告現在目前的就是園民區的這個財政的問題現在是整個都是根據目前的規定是跟這個整個直轄市是混在一起的是混在一起的現在要把它現在委員的提案建議都希望把它拆開來另外單獨要准用 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15937.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15965.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
這個相關的比如說像鄉鎮市的相關規定那這樣子一定會牽涉到各地方政府的他的舉債的額度還有就是他的債務的還有他的財政的那個相關問題了市長原來這幾個區烏來、復興區、和平區包括高雄的三個區它原來是在依原來地方制度法 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15967.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15996.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
它是包含在地方制度法裡面的相關的這些財政事項 自治事項當初把它抽出來之後他們增加了所有的鄉鎮市它增加了不是嗎現在再把它弄回去回到原來的基礎回到原來的基礎怎麼還要經過他們的同意呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15999.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
16018.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
當初他們增加的時候有沒有說我給你增加要不要同意沒有啊這個是涉及到修法的問題我們不會反對當初要修地方制度法的時候你們也沒有說財政部也沒有說財政部說地方法要一併修沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
16021.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
16027.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
這個我是覺得是這樣像這種問題的話就是因為現在目前這個時間的關係這個我只是把原來的我們是回到原來而已所以不管你不要太堅持你寫了就寫了但是你不要下午討論的時候你不要堅持說 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
16045.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
16053.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
一定要去修才能說花園法公災法或者是你一定要經過其他鄉鎮市的同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
16054.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
16076.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
我請你不要再堅持這個我們不會堅持我們是依法行政如果要這樣做我其實我剛剛講其實不是反對但是法制要完備啦這些可以充分討論我覺得說財政部立場就是說這個是可以充分討論大家有共識以後就去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
16077.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
16100.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
那剛才我也特別提到就是說財務法修正以後其實地方政府的相關的這個收支也好或者是私員的分配也好其實這部分其實都已經這個我想在修正的時候要併同來考慮了那我是覺得像這種地方就是原民區的財政問題我都聽了我剛才都有聽你的答詢那個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
16107.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
16131.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
內政部部長 劉部長這個地方制度法我們剛剛講了我就不重複講我就講另外一個議題因為台灣尤其是今年2025年少子女化會更嚴重而我們的業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
16133.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
16161.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
地方政府的業務確實不斷的增加這是事實所以我們很多的過去的人口數的規定確實有需要去檢討的地方就誠如我們上次修地方制度法33條那時候是修原住民的條文但是屏東的鄉親 屏東的議員 宗家兵 委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
16164.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
16188.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
說因為那個門檻本來是八十萬人以下一年八十萬人以下我們後來把它他沒有提修正條文我們主動在草野協商的時候修下修改為七十萬改為七十萬不是只有針對台北市我們要針對目前確實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
16191.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
16218.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
未來高雄市也會啊台南市也會啊因為我們的人口數如果我們從地方制度法在設定副市長多少人的時候到現在那個人口數的下降那個比例一併的去考量何況何況很多的立委都提到就像我的我父親在花蓮啊但是我幾乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
16220.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
16248.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
我們會期很長啊我幾乎都住在台北市啊對不對所以很多的流動的人口工作的人口所以都必須去考量而不是為了什麼為了誰所以這個部分是要一併的去因應所以這個部分就是我請那個部長跟那個次長請回座那個中副主委最後的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
16250.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
16276.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
總副主委今天看了你的報告全部都尊重主管機關尊重主管機關這個我們作為原住民組委員會要去主動協調相關的部會過去我在當延民會無論是當處長或者是當副主委的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
16277.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
16305.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
主動去協調相關的部會就像原住民保留地的主管機關本來是內政部啊去協調我去協調了三次去拜訪了三次林中生次長後來他同意那我們直轄市的議員本來就沒有分三三平三當初要改為五都的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
16306.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
16335.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
沒有改成三眼平眼的話會減少啊高雄市的一眼會減少台中市的一眼也會減少所以配合修正反正憲法憲法徵修條文還有三眼平眼所以我們的參政權還是改為三眼平眼所以直轄市那時候我也是我去協調我那時候是紀監哦 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
16338.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
16362.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
我被降調為紀監之後我拜託當時的族委我去協調那時候林宗森次長同意把直轄市的議員改為三眼平眼才有保障我們的參政權所以我們要去主動主動去說服內政部主動說服財政部好不好是謝謝委員的指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
16368.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
16377.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
好 接下来请陈俊宇委员陈俊宇委员陈俊宇委员不在 吴丽华委员吴丽华委员吴丽华委员不在接着请徐玉珍委员谢谢主席我们请刘师傅部长请刘部长 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
16392.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
16417.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
學員好部長好部長我想請教您一下我們今天要討論的地質法的部分因為其實根據內政部的報告並沒有明確的指出同意修法與否那其實我想中央政府一直在強調說我們的服務應該與時俱進應該要追求效率開放透明擴大參與所以在這樣子的一個希望服務能夠躍升的一個要求之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
16418.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
16440.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
其实我想这次所提出来的希望直辖市能够有三位副市长跟县市希望有两位副县长其实目的就是为了完成政府能够透明治理服务跃升的革新所以说当地方政府都努力的想要把这个服务做好做满所以必须当然要有相对应的预算跟能力所以针对这个部分请问部长您有什么看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
16441.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
16458.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
如果委員只提到說增加副市長或副縣長的話其實我們大家都不會反對但是我希望說可以把它要增加的原因或要增加的規劃講清楚說明白然後可以變成是未來可以長久使用譬如說人口變動不是只有250萬那400萬的要不要跟著變動因為目前的提案只有一個250萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
16465.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
16484.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
因為如果你有條件式的贊成的話跟有條件式的不贊成因為剛剛也聽到您有提到就是說您針對一些縣市你們大概都問過大家的意見嘛大部分的縣市其實都是贊成只想市的部分是兩個支持四個沒意見那就代表就是兩個支持四個沒意見就代表說全部都同意嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
16484.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
16509.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
所以我想這個部分剛剛部長有提到需要大家一起共同來去這個釐清到底要怎麼樣的部分我覺得這個可以討論那當然我想今天做這樣的一個詢答其實主要就是要讓我們各部會能夠尤其針對內政部也可以知道因為其實像針對這個部分的話你可以看到其實在之前的時候就是外交部為了就是希望能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
16510.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
16526.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
讓我們的駐地的這個國人的這個政經關係跟人脈關係可以協助他們推廣外交所以修法增設了實名的政務公使那所以既然我們為了提升效率增加服務即使現在邦交國已經從22個變成12個那但是呢還是一樣有這麼多的政務公使所以說我希望說這個部分如果有需要的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
16533.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
16548.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
希望就是說不只外交部可以這樣我希望縣市長也可以為了提升服務來增加復手那剛剛也很高興聽到部長並不反對只是說看怎麼樣來去處理那另外您可以看到下一頁我們可以看到其實地方的事務其實越來越多從這個106年的一兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
16551.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
16576.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
零二百六十一點九億到一百一十三年增加到一兆四千九百四十一億喔已經稅出的幅度已經增加百分之四十五而且在財化法修正過後地方政府的業務量也勢必會再增加所以呢針對這個部分我們也覺得說首長必須要有輔佐的一個能力才能提升他的決策效率喔那我想這個部分的話部長剛剛已經講過了那可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
16579.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
16584.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
您也贊同讓地方有更多的副手可以協助工作但怎麼樣來去處理我們也希望說能夠盡快的大家取得一個共識然後怎麼樣子來去修法那另外呢第二點也想請教一下部長上一次質詢的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
16594.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
16604.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
我有針對這個內政部的臉書的部分有跟您提出就是說在內政部的臉書有提到抱歉以下這些計畫我們被迫要刪減了而且114年至少要刪減約283.5億元的支出約佔總額的28%才能夠打平收支那當時你有告訴我說你們會回去修正這個錯誤的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
16620.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
16634.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
可是我現在看到臉書是多加了兩項補充說明可是真的我看不懂那個補充說明有什麼我現在看到的還是一樣下面還是有說抱歉以下這些計畫我們被迫要刪減了所以部長您還是堅持要請我們刪減掉283.5億元嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
16641.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
16656.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
我不清楚那個我們按照那個徐委員上次的建議啊把我們有要更正或補充的部分寫成補充的部分那您看您往下看還是抱歉以下這些計畫我們被迫要刪減而有涉災徐委員的建議是希望這些把它弄掉是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
16656.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
16672.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我的建議是錯誤的訊息本來就該拿掉如果是真的您還是覺得我們就是要刪減283.5億當然今天是二輪提案的最後一天我們也可以來這樣做那如果部長認為這個就是錯誤的訊息我們沒有要刪減283.5億的話我是覺得這樣錯誤的訊息應該要拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
16676.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
16694.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
所以許委員建議就是抱歉一下這東西把它弄掉因為那個就是錯誤的訊息啊現在假訊息不是都要這個嗎都要馬上要處理的那為什麼當時從那時候到現在不好是這樣抱歉 不好意思那就是說我們保留補充說明那下面的這個部分把它弄掉是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
16695.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
16723.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
不好意思我是要弄清楚我是想要請教一下部長如果您覺得下面的這個補充我們必須要3.283.5億元的支出您認為這個是錯誤的訊息本來就該拿掉我可不可以把那個補充說明的部分再把它弄清楚就是說我們今天只有講到今年度預算部分再按照114年的法律總預算進行然後未來年度總預算籌編就是保留補充說明的部分那下面的這些因為你這樣都放著 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
16725.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
16752.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
會讓人家不知道說到底哪個是真哪個是假然後比如就有點像那個什麼你知道嗎比如說很像那種詐騙集團會利用一些什麼假警察啦假書記官啦假檢察官啦用這樣的一個方式所以我們看到下面我們不曉得哪個是真哪個是假所以這樣的方式我覺得很容易誤導民眾那我們再來做修正好不好好我們再來做修正對那今天是提案的最後一天喔如果等一下沒有馬上修正的話我們其實也會做這個提案如果部長堅持的話了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
16754.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
16781.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
那所以我想今天還有相關這樣子的一個訊息我們可以看到其實內政部已經帶頭在狀內政部是這個詐騙的主管機關那針對這樣的假訊息一直沒有辦法撤掉所以我覺得今天的二輪提案我其實也針對內政部這樣一個宣傳方式我覺得非常的沒有辦法認同所以本席的提案要刪除內政部所有的宣傳經費110 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
16783.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
16784.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
1192萬5千人那部長您覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
16790.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
16809.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
這是委員的權利啦但是我們在做這樣修正的這個訊息的部分呢委員沒辦法滿意的話我們回去會再補充我想這不是我滿不滿意的問題這個是一般民眾都沒有辦法認同的方式那既然不對的本來就該修正而不是放在那邊然後讓大家去接受到這樣的錯誤訊息包括我想這個我們的這個村民長的年終慰問金也是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
16815.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16826.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我看到很多的民進黨的委員一直在提說這個因為才化法通過所以這個年終慰問金村長可能領不到了可是事實上剛剛部長也講到1月17號就要發放了我在內政部服務我不是在民進黨黨團服務所以那個您剛剛所提到我們已經用新聞稿發出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16833.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16849.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那我只是要告訴部長就是說其實這樣的假訊息到處充斥內政部是主管機關內政部本來就該要去這個把這個假訊息假訊息的主管機關還有很多其他的對 那內政部應該是其中一個嘛所以我覺得這個部分既然是假訊息的話應該就要想辦法尤其是針對內政部的臉書應該不是跟部長有關我們把這個訊息把它抽掉好了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
16860.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
16879.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
那另外就是針對就是這個有媒體的報導就是說內政部有發函給這個一個直轄市的這個警政單位內容直接寫到說114年度的經濟名利任務這個編組訓練服務中程的計畫剛剛也很多的委員跟部長這個詢問過那其實這個函文 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
16884.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
16904.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
我想應該不會只發函給一個直轄市嗎只發函給各縣市是嗎報告委員我跟你講這個真的不是內政部發函出去的那上面寫內政部這是授權授權那內政部的部長是誰我們在1月9號的時候我們的警政署已經有發了新聞資料已經否認這些事情是由警政署發的那請問有沒有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
16906.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
16932.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
這個有沒有這個公文裡面有內容有提到說希望這個有壯闊台灣黑熊學院等這些團體可以辦練各項的訓練課程第一個因為這個是用密件所以我們沒有辦法把這個公文公開那請問部長為什麼要用密件是要怎麼戒不得光的時間嗎我覺得不是這樣子你們都把兩件事情混合在一起第一個所有的預算我們一定按照預算法來執行這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
16932.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
16946.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
然後第二個他是寫到報告說例如黑熊學院跟壯闊台灣但是我們上任之後從來沒有這件事情那所以警政署發佈出去的部分我們要就那現在我們三讀都還沒通過你當然不可能有這樣子的一個計畫在執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
16953.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
16967.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
所以說這個部分尤其是為什麼要指名這兩個單位為什麼要舉例這兩個單位我真的不清楚有那麼多的單位報告委員我真的不清楚內政部的部長是您吧沒有內政部的部長是您所以部長我覺得您要有擔當您要去了解清楚為什麼要這樣的一個狀況我們已經發出去澄清稿了 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
16973.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
16982.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
陳青稿是說這樣寫 可是你不覺得那樣的公文就是暗示縣市政府甚至是民視縣市政府你要找這些單位 如果你要頒獎的訊息你要爭取經費的話 可能用這兩個單位比較容易爭取到這樣就有一個民視跟暗示的作用那為什麼其他單位都不寫而只寫這兩個單位我覺得部長 您必須要查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
16994.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
17019.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
我們的警政同仁寫這個評論造成很大的誤解我可以先增加抱歉但是未來我們一定按照預算法的執行規則如果沒有依法的話這些警政的同仁他自己要擔負責任部長我想今天你在這邊公開宣示我們也會這個努力的監督因為這樣子的一個方式用明示暗示的方式而且用密件的方式讓我們跟密件完全沒有關係那我想這個部分我們看到的就是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
17020.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
17043.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那希望部長真的這部分要我覺得不要看到黑影就開槍這不是看到黑影就開槍因為其實這是從去年的九月來發函雖然新聞寫11月其實是去年九月就發函啦那針對這部分為什麼這個訊息會流出來就可想而知大家都會覺得說這是一個非常不當的舉例尤其是要暗示民視所以我們已經要求要澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
17047.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
17053.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我們已經要求要澄清這個澄清之外我們覺得要嚴格的我們會嚴格的把關絕對不能有這樣的一個方式我們會嚴格執行預算法應該有的規定謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
17061.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
17077.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
接着请李燕秀委员李燕秀委员李燕秀委员不在张其凯委员张其凯委员张其凯委员不在王洪威委员王洪威委员王洪威委员不在接着请黄钊伟国昌对不起是黄总钊国昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
17088.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
17115.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
那個謝謝主席麻煩有請內政部的部長還有原住民委員會的副主委好請中副主委還有部長委員好兩位好先請教中副主委12月13號原住民組委員會在你們官方的臉書上面貼說本院三讀通過原住民組織法這件事情過後非常的不滿要提附議提了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
17118.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
17125.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
為什麼沒提公然在你們的臉書上面散播假訊息喔說要提復翼沒有提那個臉書誰授權登的我想那個是之前可能在做開會討論的時候所以啊你們主委說要提復翼行政院院長卓榮泰直接打槍啊賞他一巴掌啊就沒有要提復翼啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
17147.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
17159.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
回去告訴主委喔 自己的進退啊 想清楚啊他作為原住民組委員會的大家長 說要提復議左榮他就沒提啊他主委還幹得下去喔臉皮這麼厚還撐在那邊喔回去轉告主委啊自己考慮一下要不要請辭下台啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
17174.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
17183.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
第二個 原住民主委員會那篇丟人現眼的臉書自己把它撤下來啦請這位院長索隆泰都打臉啊可以嗎可以嗎可不可以好來 請部長我11月26號我辦公室收到疑似有子彈的物件 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
17203.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
17228.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
我請助理到中正一分局偵查隊報案這件事情11月26號是不是有人跟你報告報告委員你給我一分鐘齁我只有我們警政署告訴我說黃委員可能有接到這樣的威脅跟恐嚇警政署誰跟你講的那事實上的內容我不知道對不起警政署誰跟你講的我現在沒辦法查證好什麼時候可以回覆我 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
17230.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
17247.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
兩天的時間回覆我請證書誰跟你講的兩天之內回覆我可以嗎我要去查一下沒有關係啊你回去查兩天夠不夠可不可以給我三天的時間我給你三天的時間講清楚這件事情我從來沒有跟人家講結果你不曉得是當天還是第二天就收到訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
17255.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
17275.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
叫你辦公室的人跟我辦公室聯絡說你有事要找我我直接問助理說請問一下部長找我有什麼貴事說關於我接到子彈被恐嚇的事情我那時候聽到這種回覆我非常驚訝奇怪了我們警政署的同仁是把偵查不公開當什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
17278.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
17304.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
可以這樣講喔報告委員我是警政署的督導的上司如果我們有重要的人物受到威脅的時候我的要點只有一個我們希望委員可不可以申請隨乎那我只是要來報告說您方不方便要申請隨乎你行政上面要怎麼講隨便你去講啦我就請教內政部部長請問你是司法警察官嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
17305.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
17307.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
當然不是對啊所以他憑什麼跟妳講我要保護委員的安全啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
17311.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
17335.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
他憑什麼跟你講這沒有違反偵查不公開喔我告訴你我只知道說委員受到威脅內容我完全不清楚啊沒有關係啊我一樣一樣來你只要把誰跟我講的把誰跟你講的告訴我就好了接下來的刑事程序我們就按照刑事程序啊來加以處理我今天沒有在這邊跟你爭論這件事情啊好來委員的案件喔我相信你都很關心啊我們來討論一下另外一個委員的案件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
17340.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
17367.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
這是個刑犯喔在警察面前直接拿油壓剪破壞公務這件事情警政署依法提出告訴沒有我不清楚你不清楚可以回去了解嗎我可能要問到那個地方警察才知道沒有關係啊一定有權要做主的人才可以決定要不要代表國家提起刑事告訴嘛這樣破壞公務的行為部長認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
17369.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
17380.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
這個是破壞公務還是按照社會秩序維護法我想委員非常清楚法律上的認知先停一下喔 那個是油壓檢喔油壓檢在檢什麼在檢上面的鐵鎖那個鐵鎖是公務耶中華民國刑法寫得很清楚耶這哪是社會秩序維護法的問題啊不是偵查的主體沒辦法告訴你沒有關係啊 但是偵查的主體是檢察官嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
17396.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17408.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
檢察官法務部該負責的部分我今天早上社會法治委員會請教過部長啊但大家都知道有告訴權的人是誰有告訴權的人就是說公務的所有人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
17409.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
17439.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
所以我才請你回去問警政署嘛但是這個如果是在立法院院區的話恐怕不是不是這在外面這在外面所以我不清楚這個照片所以沒關係你回去搞清楚嘛部長是不是在我們下午議案處理完成之前您等一下馬上交代好不好我們在我們下午會沒有我要查清楚沒有關係我給你時間查清楚啊不是我先回答昭緯的部分所以今天沒辦法是不是因為有的時候警政署他還要一點時間去查查那你要多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
17439.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17458.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
我不清楚 但是我盡快就對了好嗎 因為您講了下午 現在已經是下午了我說下午議案處理完之前下午議案處理完之前我們會逐條如果這樣時間不夠沒關係 您看要多久什麼時候 這個禮拜內可以嗎好 我這個禮拜內好嗎好 這個禮拜內是另外一個問題來 第三個問題這林秉文很囂張幫詐騙集團洗錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17468.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
17478.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
氣飽潛逃啊還發臉書嗆聲啊而且嗆聲恐嚇的對象是誰啊一樣啊是本院立法院的同仁啊徐曉清啊部長這麼關心啊本院立委的安危啊您非常關心嘛林秉文是隔海嗆聲欸還透過人說啊他都不會打嘴砲啊有事就直接找人處理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17498.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17524.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
這種人追緝 盜案我相信是全民的共識但我只有一個問題法務部的部分歸法務部的部分地檢署歸地檢署我只有一個問題我們通緝犯查緝系統從我第一次當立委到現在我一直在追我們通緝犯查緝系統就殘破不堪 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17526.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17539.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
後來之前行政院跟我說他們出了一個整合版的系統來整合版的系統我就先就內政部執掌範圍之內刑事警察局通緝犯查緝系統為什麼找不到林秉文這個通緝犯查緝系統他都已經被通緝了啊在公告系統裡面找不到啊為什麼林秉文比較大尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17554.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17583.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
還是因為林秉文後面都是這些人刑事警察局連公告系統都不敢把他刊登上去喔部長這件事情知不知道通緝犯就是通緝犯沒有大偉跟小偉我們按照刑事警察局那刑事警察局要交代清楚啊好那我來請刑事警察局來做修理告訴刑事警察局喔這次你搞成這個樣子啊內政部刑事警察局的通緝犯系統如果連這個都不敢登 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17584.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17606.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
那相關的預算把它砍掉剛好而已嘛我有說錯了嗎沒有關係如果我有誤解歡迎內政部警政署刑事警察局今天發聲明公開跟台灣社會講林秉文的案子鬧到今天啦通緝犯的系統還沒上是要包屁喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17607.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
17624.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
是要包屁喔當然不是最好不是啦本來就不是最好不是嘛本來刑事警察局就要按照刑事警察局應該有的規範來處理所以有嗎我可以保證啊但是我跟你講說如果你認為這樣子不妥當的話我會請他什麼叫我認為這樣不妥當啊上面就沒有嘛通緝犯該登沒有登還叫做我認為不妥當喔報告委員我回去看部長你認為很妥當嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
17634.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
17637.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
你讓我查清楚以後我們會做更正做錯就做錯了嘛我查清楚以後會做更正好 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
17647.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
17664.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
好接著請丁薛忠委員丁薛忠委員丁薛忠委員不在洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員不在蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在莊瑞雄委員莊瑞雄委員莊瑞雄委員不在好 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
17667.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
17691.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
登記發言的委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員審發會丁學中林思明所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會我們現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
17697.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
17707.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
40分鐘用餐至2點05分對2點下午2點05分14點05分休息後繼續開會審查法案好現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
20493.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
20500.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
好我們現在繼續開會那是不是我們可以延長開會時間那到議程處理完畢請問有無異議 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
20510.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
20531.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
本席說明一下 每一條如果大家覺得要供應會的我們就保留未來開供應會或未來繼續審查我的意思是說至少把它順完可以嗎如果有的沒有很有爭議的我們才稍微討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
20533.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
20557.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
有不是不是我說的是不是保留開公聽會是說我是說保留在委員會未來繼續審查包含開公聽會包含大家做更深入的審查啦對 對 抱歉抱歉好不好那反正我我們不會到太久啦至少不要卡在兩點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
20564.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
20585.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
好啦 是不是 我們就延長開會啦好 謝謝對啦 我們也聽一下大家意見啦包括大家有希望開公聽會的我們有共識我們就開嘛那有一些我們其實可以給行政單位表達意見的我們也聽一下 好不好謝謝 謝謝在座的委員好 那我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
20588.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
20603.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
會議時間延長至這個議程處理完畢那我們現在進行法案審查請宣讀討論事項的所有條文宣讀完畢之後再行協商請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
20604.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
20626.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
本院内政司司法及法治委员会于一百十三年四月十八日召开第十一届第一会期第一次联席会议审查委员赖世保等二十人拟据地方制度法第七条之一条文修正草案及委员陈玉珍等十八人拟据地方制度法增订第七条之四条文草案上述二案之条文已宣读完毕现在宣读讨论事项第三至第十二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
20626.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
20641.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
第七条之一委员鲁明哲等16人提案第一项会论增订并经各该直辖市政府县市政府及各该直辖市县议会县市议会同意后报请行政院核定之其余同线性条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
20642.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
20671.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
第三十三条委员苏清泉等二十七人提案第二项第三款第一幕中段修正为人口在一万人以下者每减少一千人递减一人至五人为止其余同现行条文第五十二条委员吴丽华等十六人提案第二项后段增订因公死亡者应给予遗嘱抚恤金第三项前段修正为第一项各费用知己项目标准及抚恤金之知己其余同现行条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
20672.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
20690.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
第55條委員李燕秀等16人提案及委員徐巧欣等21人提案將第一項中斷之致副市長二人修正為致副市長三人並刪除人口在250萬人以下之直轄市得增致副市長一人之文字其餘同線型條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
20691.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
20717.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
第56条委员陈玉珍等18人提案将第一项中段之至副县市长一人修正为至副县市长二人第二项中后段修正为其一级单位主管及所属一级机关首长除主级人士警察税捐及政风之主管或首长一专属人士管理法律任免外其余职业军比照检认第12职等由县市长任免之其余同线性条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
20718.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
20745.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
委员李燕秀等16人提案第一项后段修正为人口数达全国人口总数2%以上之县市得增至副县市长一人均由县市长任命并报请内政部备查其余同线性条文第61条委员吴丽华等16人提案第三项后段增订并修正为因公死亡者应给予遗族抚恤金其补助项目标准及抚恤金之知己以法律定之其余同线性条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
20745.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
20763.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
第七十八条委员李坤诚等二十人提案第一项后段修正为分别由行政院内政部县政府商政市区公所停止其职务及停发奉给不适用公务员惩戒法第三条及公务人员奉给法第二十一条之规定其余同性行条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
20764.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
20789.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
第83條之三委員伍麗華等17人提案增訂第二款第三四目三申閣前鄉鎮市應分配之稅捐四申閣前鄉鎮市應分配之公共債其餘同現行條文委員高金素美等18人提案第二款第二目修正為二山地原住民區稅捐增訂第二款第三目第四目三山地原住民區公共債務 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
20790.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
20805.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
四 山地原住民区财产之经营及处分其余同现行条文委员卢新英等18人提案增订第二款第三四目三 山地原住民区税捐四 山地原住民区公共债务其余同现行条文 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
20806.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
20831.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
第83條之七委員盧憲一等18人提案第一項序文修正為山地原住民區實施自治所需財源因逐年檢討由直轄市一下列因素予以設算補助增訂第一項第三款三不得低於改制前各該山地相同籌分配財源水準其餘同現行條文增訂第83條之九委員盧憲一等18人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
20831.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
20855.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
山地原住民区应分配之国税准用财政收支划分法关于乡镇市规定办理前项应分配之国税应直接拨补与山地原住民区保障其财政自主性补助之项目程序方式及其他相关事项由财政部恰商行政院主级总处指辖市及山地原住民区定之增订第83条之十委员卢宪一等18人提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
20856.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
20882.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
山地原住民区财政之收入及支出应准用本法及财政收支划分法关于乡镇市规定办理山地原住民区地方税之范围及课征准用地方税法通则关于乡镇市之规定增订第83条之11委员卢宪仪等18人提案山地原住民区预算收支之差短得以借款或移用以前年度税计剩余弥平 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
20883.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
20900.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
三地原住民區未償餘額比例準用公共債務法關於鄉鎮市之規定增訂第83條之12委員盧新一等18人提案直轄市三地原住民區公所至秘書一人為經人第八值等至第九值等宣讀完畢好那我們現在進行協商現在進行協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
20914.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
20928.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那是不是各位委員請遵循各位委員的意見是不是大家桌上都有條文對照表我們就按照我們內政委員會替我們準備的條文對照表我們主條來這個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
20933.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
20958.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
一條一條來大家可以表達意見如果大家覺得今天可能時間不夠需要未來更多時間包含可能有的需要公聽會有的還需要請縣市政府還是請誰來表達之類的各位委員都可以充分表達那我們就擱置也不是擱置我們就保留在委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
20961.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
20981.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
之後再另期來審查好不好所以我們最主要我們希望這個有進度之外就是說有一些如果爭議不大然後我們委員之間可以表達也讓行政單位可以回應我們可以有一些初步共識的我們希望還是可以往前來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
20983.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
21007.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
好那接著如果大家沒意見的話我們就開始首先第七條之一第七條之一因為提案委員都不在兩位那這個部分主要就是針對直轄市縣市改制或其他直轄市縣市合併改制為直轄市者 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
21009.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
21032.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
特別希望說能夠徵得各該直轄市政府還有縣市政府及各直轄市議會縣市議會的同意這個部分大家覺得會有疑慮嗎還是有什麼樣的意見我們請委員們發表一下好 王美惠委員主席在這裡我覺得提案人也沒有在這裡跟你說要講那麼多人討論的 我覺得你用 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
21039.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
21045.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
本地的議會來決定 我覺得應該是要中央跟地方來處理那好誰啦不然如果說中央的人跟議長的人跟議長來處理還是什麼有一點問題 我覺得要大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
21061.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
21066.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
討論中央跟電話討論比較合適不然你跟我說給他同意 我覺得這樣也很奇怪這個等一下可以請因為我們知道我們內政的選擇就是提案人不在的選擇我們就不處理這案我們就另外一案來處理好不好也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
21087.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
21091.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
如果提案人不在的我們乾脆就保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
21095.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
21117.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
對 可以可以但是剛剛王美惠委員提到本席的理解等一下也許可以問一下內政部就是說他提案的意思應該是說因為過去都是中央在制定他們只是希望這個部分可以尊重一下地方也可以徵求地方的同意然後中央在制定的時候不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
21118.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
21141.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
地方沒有同意然後中央就進行了我不知道我這樣的認知是不是這樣子好不好可不可以請部長稍微補充說明一下就是說我覺得中央跟地方在很多事權上其實可以溝通我們也沒有說一定要怎麼樣但是應該可以多一點的溝通我覺得這個應該沒有違背因為我也是連署人之一對連署人所以我想說是不是部長可以幫我們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
21142.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
21159.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
好謝謝李委員謝謝王委員我想是這樣子有關於賴思寶委員以及羅明哲委員的部分我們有特別提到說我們現在的那個憲法第108條第一項第二款的規定是屬於中央權限所以可能在憲法規定上面會有漢格 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
21159.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
21188.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
然後我想在座有很多委員以前也當過議員都知道如果說我們要徵詢相關直轄市相關直轄市政府跟縣市政府意見的時候通常比較弱勢的那個縣市政府都不會同意還有呢議會要同意的話最大的麻煩是議會怎麼樣同意通常議會不是表決都會一直延到下一次所以如果提這個案的話從政治上來看大概就是永遠不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
21188.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
21207.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
在有這個縣市合併的版本發生了那個我舉個例子比如說有人提到新竹縣市要合併那有的新竹市政府的跟新竹縣政府同意可是新竹市議會或新竹縣議會有一個人說不同意大概就不會同意啦我想議會的這個共同決定大家都知道所以我們才會說 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
21208.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
21223.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
是不是屬中央權限的部分呢讓我們保留不要違反到憲法第108條第一項第二款的規定同時我要跟各位提到就是說如果中央政府強制要做這個升格直轄式的時候它就要面對政治上面的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
21225.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
21244.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
選舉的時候的挑戰他硬要這樣通過的話除非說他很有把握一定是百分之百兩邊都不會反對所以這個部分就會變成有點困擾同時我也跟各位報告今天我在回應包括牛許廷委員在內他有提到他想要知道我們自己報導行政院裡面的行政區劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
21246.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
21275.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
地方支柱法、行政區劃法、財劃法當時的一個設計的原則也就是說我們今天只有單純講程序上是市政府跟縣市議會同意但是行政區劃法如果不符合那中央硬是這樣做決定或是地方政府硬是這樣子做決定的話到時候就是沒有辦法成事反而會變成是扯後腿我講到拍拖是這樣所以這個部分是不是容許我們有點保留而且它跟憲法是有點抵觸以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
21279.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
21282.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
王美惠委員而且部長說的很明確對憲法有點抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
21296.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
21304.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
對可能也不好通過好那第七條之四好第七條之四這個是李導那個跟各位報告齁那個陳玉珍委員的版本齁在2024年的去年2024沒錯現在是2025對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
21324.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
21335.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
好來請李博義委員提案委員不在我們是不是另定期再來討論那就這樣那定期的話我們就叫做保留嗎對保留另定期討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
21337.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
21356.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
就認定期,那我們就認定期,那剛剛前面是提案委員在啦那是要保留還是要認定期?以我們內政的慣例,提案委員不在的話,我們就不處理沒有保留的,過去的慣例都是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
21357.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
21386.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
那應該是過去8年吧之前好像沒有這樣好沒關係啦可以啦我尊重我尊重我們今天在場的說這個不處理我們就不處理好不好也可以對我們的就兩種一種是不處理嘛那一種就是另定期就是下次的召委他要排在哪裡就是這樣子好啦那我們就這樣啦前面不處理現在也不處理好不好7-1我們不處理啦然後7-4也不處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
21391.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
21405.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
那33条那就也不处理了那武力华委员也没在那也不处理了好那我们接着我们是不是可以讨论一下李燕秀委员的提案好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
21407.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
21427.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
好 少子化大家都知道高齡化少子化是未來整個台灣的整個趨勢那人口數其實以六都來講要250萬我覺得大家上上下下所以這個部分我還是希望就是說未來在六都還不只是台北市其實包括台南 桃園 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
21428.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
21456.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
那未來高齡化之後其實大家生的少真的要每一次都剛好那一年剛好一定有衝破250萬我覺得用這樣定一個自私的目標對於這個未來這個地質法的這個副市長的設置跟調整我覺得不能只用這個標準所以我希望大家可不可以用不一樣的思考模式今年可能有一些還有以現在還有250萬的是新北還有哪個台中是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
21458.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
21473.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
高雄五年後會不會還有250萬我們當然努力但是大家都沒有把握但是現在各縣市政府因為我們有當過議員都知道其實面臨的挑戰事務非常多一個副市長副市長又要負責警衛又要負責交通又要負責食安又要負責勞動又要負責公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
21480.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
21500.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
我覺得因為副市長他們專業應該有更完整的分工所以我還是希望就是說不要只考量到戶籍的人口數以六都來講我們現在是不是都可以就是讓他們直接得設置第三位副市長那除了六都之外的外縣市我用一個56% 57% |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
21503.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
21529.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
兩趴的人口數來去做估算這是我的版本我也希望可以獲得在現場的委員的支持以上是我的意見 謝謝好 請王美惠委員主席 在我們這條我們就是要增加石轄市的副市長的人數啦齁在這裏面有兩個版本都是不分人數要提高到三個副市長啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
21530.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
21536.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
我認為我們要考量到領口和行政區的範圍及業務的多樣化應該要考量各館企業的意見並且要做一個綜合考量才可以做出 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
21548.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
21558.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
副市長應該是整個要怎麼調整下去立法,這個是最重要的因為有的是覺得他有夠啊,有的是覺得我差一點啊,但是我平常是服務的,像家裡這個,服務人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
21569.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
21577.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
人又加起來又有很多人,就像台北市一講的貿易,每一個講的貿易,我認為是大家要最早去探討這個問題,因為時空背景會知道,我這時候就說,已經沒工了,需要的選,是不是我們大家,不是跟直轄市有需要而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
21595.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
21598.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
請張志倫委員,接著黃婕委員,接著蘇巧慧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
21611.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
21635.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
好謝謝主席那我這邊也要請教部長就是有關於這個陳玉珍委員提的這個修法第56條因為我有連署其實我是很支持王美惠委員講的就是說這個非六都的部分其實副縣長或副市長只有一名是不是他會太辛苦啊那很多委員都有提出來如果兩位副市長一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
21637.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
21649.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
專門是做文化教育等等的那另外一個如果是專業是屬於建設發展地方地方城鄉的部分所以我認為兩個又專業不同那在當然我看到內政部的回應是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
21652.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
21681.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
如果多一個副市長將會限縮縣市政府常任文官升遷管道不利於縣市政府延攬優秀文官那我想要請教部長是說才升一個副市長就會影響到這個市府延攬優秀文官嗎所以我認為這樣子的講法是有點太過嚴重所以是不是請部長再幫助我們其他非六都的縣市一個忙以上好那接著請黃婕委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
21685.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
21702.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
那我的意見其實跟早上質詢一樣我也有請教部長就是說現在如果把這個人口多寡這個指標拿掉了那是不是還是要找其他比較可以參考性而且有正當性的指標來作為要不要增任第三位副市長的一個依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
21703.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
21728.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
那你不能因為說這個250萬總是在上上下下所以乾脆都不要看都不看人口然後就直接說不管這個直轄市的人口多少那我覺得對於像新北人口非常多400萬人那你對他們也是三位那台北市250萬也是三位那我們高雄280萬也是三位那這樣真的真的好嗎所以我認為一個公平的依據還是需要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
21729.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
21749.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
至於說這個依據指標是什麼大家可以來討論但是不能都沒有所以我是認為如果要討論應該是要有一個配套或者是看可以怎麼樣讓它有一個非常有正當性的一個參考而不是說變成說現在好像是有點因人設施了不希望變成是這樣 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
21751.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
21774.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
我們不要因人設事 我們就舊市論事來討論接下來請蘇巧慧委員非常贊成主席舊市論事的說法我想我們現在在討論的是地方制度法地方制度法是通行全國從直轄市縣市也就是從城市到偏鄉都會運用到的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
21776.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
21796.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
所以如果以每個縣市來講的話我想不管是像我是全台灣人口最多的新北市那或者是燕秀委員是首善之區台北市我們美惠委員嘉義市嘉義市這人口差很多面積也差很多但是要是有人可以幫忙做事情大家都會很開心非常需要所以你要幫他加副市長這樣子的職位我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
21804.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
21823.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
大家都一定會舉手贊成一定要但是那問題就又回來了當每個縣市都加了之後那變成是國家的時候能不能夠負擔我想我們今天各縣市的代表齊聚一堂其實到最後每個縣市已經說出自己的願望之後那最後就是要來盤盤看國家可不可以負擔我想這才是我們坐在國會殿堂的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
21830.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
21834.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
不然如果回到每個區域的話我也想加我們新北市120多少現在是125萬人以上就可以變成是三個嗎那我都400人了我是不是可以四個還是五個是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
21846.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
21863.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
總而言之我覺得剛剛說的這個比例等等我覺得很好那是不是我們也按照設計一個公式那大家如果都符合的話其實就是照公式下去任何一個縣市符合的就應該加我覺得這樣很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
21866.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
21892.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
接著本席也表達一下意見等一下我們請部長就所有委員的意見來回應今天早上本席跟部長的質詢我們也特別有談到確實剛剛很多委員也提到就是要有一個標準我們非常認同而且也很感謝我們新北市的委員有特別提到對新北市有400多萬400零幾萬的人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
21895.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
21907.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
所以第一個本席要表達的是每個縣市就不是直轄市每個縣市一席的這個副縣長那不同的人口數 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
21909.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
21928.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
部長今天有特別講到我們法定可以訂我可以訂個天花板但是有些縣市他覺得我只要一席副縣長就好包含直轄市他覺得你給我三席或四席可是我只要兩席他可以不用騙到滿所以我們可以訂個天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
21929.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
21953.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那但是人口超出多少之後每多少人口可以再增加所以以這樣的一個概念我們縣市各縣市政府是不是可以給兩席這個是天花板但是縣市如果人口多到他已經快要逼近可以合併成為六都可是中央都還沒有合併的時候是不是他超過100萬之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
21955.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
21975.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
又可以再增加也就是说我们今天也许如果能够有共识我们也可以提一个主决议就是说县市两席直辖市三席但是直辖市的部分超过比如说300万以上每多少我们可以再增加一席 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
21976.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
22003.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
那所以像台南他可能觉得我两席可以可是他其实有三席是天花板所以他可以只聘两席因为还有刚刚有讲到裁员的部分就是钱从哪里来好像他不是国家但是县市政府对直辖市政府或县市政府尤其聘多少这个一般聘几个名额这个是县市首长或直辖市的首长那包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
22004.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
22025.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
財政也是他手上啦所以這一塊應該是可以因為今天跟部長的這個質詢互動我覺得蠻好的我們這一個部分也許可以大家可以表達一下意見我們今天看看有沒有機會可以有一個初步的共識好那接著我們請張宏祿召委接著范雲委員好然後接著李彥秀委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
22029.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
22046.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
我覺得這個是可以討論的不過如果說從今天這樣子這樣條文要通過我相信我們在座新北市的立委這樣子我們新北市百萬不是不是不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
22048.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
22070.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
不不 蔡委你聽我講完我們這個也可能會遭受很大的壓力那再來如果說像這個每個縣市我們不是講這個 每個縣市就真設副縣長一人也不管他的人口多少就像我早上講的 你對縣轄市的 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
22071.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
22091.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
他很多的人口都超過二十幾萬甚至有三十萬的那也不盡公平啦我覺得啦這個議題啊是可以討論但我覺得要給內政部跟所有的他們一個時間去訂一個全台灣大家都可以認同的一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
22092.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
22119.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
我覺得這個還不急嘛你離下次的縣市長選舉還有時間那我們這樣子來個討論要解決要從縣轄市然後縣市政府直轄市我們這個三級政府該如何去做一致通盤的考量我覺得這樣子才會比較好我個人的看法是這樣然後看其他委員大家怎麼想不然你會覺得很奇怪喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
22122.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
22137.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
我的縣轄市 比如說那個志倫委員他的中和區有多少人呢40萬人那你像彰化市彰化市現在有好幾十萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
22139.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
22155.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
結果你不分大小你可能十幾萬的一個縣他就一個一個副縣長那他咧 那麼多人他既然他沒有辦法弄一個有一個副市長那你說人數差這麼多我覺得大家要去好好的思考這個問題我說他我說彰化市 彰化縣的彰化市 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
22168.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
22196.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
阿所以不公平阿不公平阿 以人口來講對 你看他幾十萬人喔那你看臨江縣才一萬多人他就有機會可以有一個副縣長一萬多人有一個副縣長那彰化市幾十萬人沒有副不是啦 所以現在就是討論五五六阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
22202.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
22227.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
我現在是在舉例你五六條裡面你五十六條裡面你每一個縣不管人口多少你臨江縣一萬多人他還可以設一個副縣長但我舉一個彰化市好了彰化縣的彰化市他的人口那麼多那他也沒有在這次的機會裡面說我們要不要去討論他可以設一個副市長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
22229.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
22232.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
我覺得這個是可以討論的但要必須去討論啦要整盤啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
22244.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
22266.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
從早上因為不再說我也都有聽直播聽到現在我明明覺得這個就是雖然這邊我應該是少數涉及在台北市的可是我聽來聽去我們現在第55條修要增加副市長三人這真的只有對台北市就是我不知道對市民有沒有利好像就只有對台北市政府有利 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
22267.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
22291.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
而且原本就是因為他人數少於2022年人數少於250萬了所以縮減才有這個部分早上也有聽到說其實六都有些地方政府寧願多一點局處欸並沒有覺得修這個部分是要多一個副市長所以我覺得這個姿勢體大要有一致性而且56條到其他縣市政府又是看人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
22292.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
22316.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
所以第55條我們現在不看原本條文的人口250萬了要直接增加一個副市長三人可是好多地方政府表達這不是他目前最需要的所以是不是再開公聽會討論然後我早上也有講說婦女團體知道今天緊急要修地方制法希望修的是明代基層的三分之一改成任意性別比例而不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
22317.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
22337.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
如果我們到時候只有這條出去了我覺得大家會非常的失望跟不滿所以請召委體察一下我們大家的意見這個是不是開一下公聽會有更充分的知道六都還有各地方政府首長在修這條的時候真正的需求是什麼以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
22339.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
22355.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
公聽會是跟大家權益有關的我們現在這個只是訂副市長跟副縣長所以沒關係這個本席只是表達那接著請李博義先生好了因為他還沒發言等一下第二輪再請李燕秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
22355.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
22373.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
我幫張宏祿委員補充一下這個不是55條56條的問題雖然是在55條56條裡面他剛剛講的是人口數比如說彰化市的人口數明顯是比比如說連江縣還要多但是連江縣 江澀兩個副縣長而彰化市沒有副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
22378.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
22386.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
是在講這一個道理那要不要來討論是講這一個道理而不是說什麼55條56條而不是說這線轄市這個編制不一樣我們還是希望給市民多一點討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
22395.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
22412.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
除了給市民多一點的這個比較完整性的服務之外我覺得合理性我們還是要兼顧一下第二個我來自直轄市我來自直轄市高雄市過去高雄市在改制合併高雄市高雄縣以前確實也人口未達250萬確實也是兩位副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
22416.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
22441.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
那到了改制之後那合併高雄縣之後那人口達到280萬那變成三位副市長那現在因為可能台北市目前所面臨的狀況要去做這一個調整要變成六都都要變成三位副市長我覺得這個是有必要商榷因為你如果用人口數的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
22442.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
22466.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
剛剛很多委員講了那新北怎麼辦那新北的這些委員怎麼回去跟新北市民交代我覺得這個也是必須要拿出來做多一點的討論再者內政部早上有表達目前為止在這一任如果說台北市他副市長沒有更動的話那內政部其實也不會去要求台北市說你現在人口不到250萬你要少一個副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
22468.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
22482.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
這樣就是晚假啊 也沒有嘛所以還在這一屆以內讓全國的人民知道說啊台北市為什麼會少一個副市長的原因是因為人口減少了人口減少當然有很多原因大家可以來探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
22482.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
22494.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
我們要不要從這些原因裡面去探討說我們怎麼樣讓這個城市的資源怎麼樣分佈等等的多面向的討論來討論這一個副市長的增或減這樣會比較完整一點 謝謝好 那接著請李燕秀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
22508.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
22534.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
我再跟大家報告一下就是說以六都來說250萬因為有時候人口上上下下有時候出生 農年剛好出生率稍微高一點非農年出生率低一點有時候面對疫情的時候長輩人數走得比較多所以有時候人口上上下下我覺得畫一條線是不是一個最好的標準是第一個我的看法那第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
22535.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
22557.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
以好幾個地方來說有竹科有南科有南卵用絕對的戶籍人口數來去討論我覺得並不見得公平以新竹來說它有竹科憑良心講白天上班進到新竹的人口可能多二三十萬人以內科跟南卵來說白天可能多增加一百萬人進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
22559.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
22581.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
那縣市政府對於這些流動的人口是不是要有施政的目標要不要去考量當然都有分工的這些專業在所以第一我希望就是說內政部在討論這些劃分副市長的標準因為今天我提案的是副市長這個層級可以有不同的考量不要只用絕對的戶籍人口數 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
22583.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
22609.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
那因為這幾年少子化又變到疫情走的人比較多有時候出生率剛好農年又出生率也高或者是有時候出生率低高高低低所以我們也希望就是說不要只有畫那一條線去考量到人口的設置所以我才會提出這樣子的版本當然剛才有幾位委員講出來的就是說非六度的部分可以怎麼去考量或者是在各縣市組織編制 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
22611.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
22623.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
我們怎麼樣調整得更好我都尊重我覺得當然也可以因為我自己也當過市議員就是說但是那個版本要進來以現在來說譬如說各縣市以台北市來說譬如說它有15個局處但是我們希望分工分得更好可以達到18個局處我也都尊重我也都尊重但是就是要版本進來那我覺得現在面臨交通的變化 極端氣候的變化食安的問題 兒少的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
22640.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
22652.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
現在其實副市長主導的每一個專業分工我個人都覺得其實非常非常的重要所以我才希望說我們這一次是不是可以先處理55條56條 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
22655.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
22674.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
副市長的部分跟非六都縣市長的部分那下一次我們有機會在併著整個組織的邊子要怎麼去調整我們大家再一起來共提不同的版本一起來處理那所以我想這個部分這個部分是不是可以朝向這樣子的方式處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
22675.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
22694.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
好 本席也二次發言蠻認同這個李燕秀委員的這個發言內容因為我們現在針對直轄市的副市長那本席有一個想法我覺得台南市我相信因為現在台南市不斷的發展他們剛好還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
22697.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
22703.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
這個人口未來絕對大量的移入對台南市來說這個應該是超前部署而且這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
22706.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
22733.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
這個整個直轄市三位副市長依據這種人口應該是我們大家可以來思考應該是必要的那對新北市它已經是六都當中的人口多出非常的多所以本席也希望看是不是我們如果可以我們可以在現場我們這個修正動議我們除了直轄市有三位副市長之外那 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
22734.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
22744.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
看大家或是包含我們行政單位的意見我們是不是可以依據每增加80萬人口還是多 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
22745.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
22766.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
100万那我们得以再增设这个副市长那当然因为应该这样讲我们现在讨论到55条那如果56条要一起讨论的话那当然也可以包含就是说我们给一个天花板给一个天花板 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
22766.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
22781.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
那再來就是超過天花板的部分我們應該可以定出說增加多少我們還是可以給予得增設一席那我想委員如果發言完是不是請部長請劉部長回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
22784.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
22790.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
好 謝謝昭偉我想大部分的委員都會同意說我們再修55條 56條或者是說跟57條有關有關聯的部分能夠用比較公式性的或是有標準系統化的來談論這個議題會比較好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
22800.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
22817.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
我先回應就是說剛剛可能在解釋上我們說明不清楚了像張志倫委員特別提到說會影響到地方的文官那個是陳玉珍委員提到有一個地制法的修正案他希望縣政府的一級主管跟首長全部改為政務任用這條我們不討論我們就不去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
22822.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
22838.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
再來就是有關於55條跟56條的部分我們建議55條跟56條一定要一起處理還有57條如果跟人口有關的話我也不希望說在直轄市討論的時候是以百萬人口的人口數然後到56條的時候是2% |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
22840.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
22859.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
那這樣子變成兩套不同的標準所以我建議說我們是不是就全部以人口數為主來訂定那如果是這樣的話呢我先跟大家報告一下就是今天早上我有特別提到六個直轄市政府裡面呢兩個直轄市政府是支持的部分是台北市跟桃園市 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
22860.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
22878.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
那因為台北市跟桃園市他目前的人口數就是介於這250萬上下一點點那其他的那四個的部分呢是沒有意見的那再來有關於就是說縣市地方政府對於治兩位副縣長的部分呢有一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
22878.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
22900.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
一個縣政府本來反對現在是覺得說他希望參照原來的部分那再來就是如果說縣市政府的一級主管全部改成一條邊也就是全部改為政務任用的話呢明顯反對的就是苗栗縣跟宜蘭縣他們反對全部都是政務官這一個沒有在5556吧有喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
22903.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
22916.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
我剛有跟特別提到說我要回答就是五五五六五七一起來回答這次沒有五七啊我知道我知道那就不要沒有五七就不用但是我們一定要全面性的關照我沒有說要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
22917.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
22946.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
然後再來55條的部分那綜合剛剛包括在座有幾位是新北市的這個委員所以我們可能會建議用這樣如果大家同意說我們用人口數來做這個考量的標準的話呢就是可不可以這樣子就是說直轄市政府呢市長一人然後得志副市長三人那如果每增加人口超過300萬的話每增加100萬人可再增至副市長一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
22947.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
22966.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
那這個部分就可以了解譬如說台南市他認為說他只要有兩位副市長那他雖然天花板是三個但是他可以去聘請兩位副市長就可以了那如果以新北市來講的話他認為說他現在業務非常繁重那可不可以用增加一百萬人的方式再增至副市長一人 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
22967.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
22995.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
那跟各位報告就是說沒有那麼容易達成共識的原因就是說因為我們也參考了那個韓國的這個首爾或者參考日本包括東京都大阪或者這些其實呢大致上他們也是以人口為主來做計算沒有用百分之多少的人口來做計算這第一個那日本的話呢現在的直轄市的東京都呢它的人口是833萬它的富之市是四位 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
22995.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
23010.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
那大阪府他的副知事是三位京都府也是三位那大阪府的人口是259萬京都府的人口是三位那其他的歐洲德國的話就更嚴格我就不講了韓國的部分的話非常嚴格他們的首爾是800萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
23020.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
23035.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
對所以他們只有八百萬人以上是增設第三位副市長那其他八百萬以下的呢其他的地方團裡只有一位副首長以上這是我們在第十五十五條上面的見解提供給大家參考好謝謝部長那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
23044.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
23058.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
剛剛部長也有提到這個直轄市其實也可以考慮300萬以上可以再增加一席那是不是得設置三位副市長而且部長也有講他不認滿也沒關係他不騙滿也沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
23064.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
23089.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
就是天花板對他覺得一席兩席他不要到第三席但是法律規定上呢可以給他三席然後超過300人的像剛剛我覺得新北市的在座委員也不少都覺得確實我們也覺得新北市長會來對不對蘇巧慧委員也許也有機會做新北市長那所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
23090.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
23117.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
我也相信就是說副首長他需在首長有的時候分身法術他需要多一些分身所以是不是300萬以上得再增設一位那每增加100萬人所以這一個部分就是說對我們因為剛剛部長有提嘛所以我們也聽聽看各位委員我們是不是可以逐漸的來收斂一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
23119.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
23137.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
好 請李博義委員還是 還是 部長還是會有爭議啦今天為了台北市少於250萬那可能提出來那希望可以讓台北市市政運作順利好不要一直針對台北市我們就事論事嘛好不好你讓我講完嘛剛剛部長講那個我要挑戰一下部長啊你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
23141.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
23162.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
人口超過300萬的得增設一個好了新北市現在有時候398萬有時候402萬又來了這個副市長要不要增設所以我覺得這個還是如果單純只要用人口的話我覺得還是要稍微討論一下即使我們覺得是你今天要討論台北市250萬要有三位副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
23163.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
23184.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
那新北市400萬是不是要多一位呢我當然同意這個價格我們當然同意就是說用人口光用人口這個大家可能還是需要經過一些討論可以讓這個副市長的功能可以更發揮不要每次如果台北市人口少了或新北市人口多了少了我們都要來這邊討論一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
23188.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
23196.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
李博弈委員說的本席也覺得蠻有道理的啦因為這個不好意思那我們先給張昭偉發言我想要先請問部長你的前提應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
23203.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
23222.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
我們先講55條直轄市你應該是多少人口以上設多少然後再有多多少才去設多少吧而不是說只要是直轄市就三個都不用去任何的限制那就是原來的版本啊我覺得部長你剛講的意思是不是我說的這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
23225.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
23249.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
沒有 我剛剛有特別提到 我只先針對55條但是56條跟57條 這三個都要一起談才可以這也是我一貫的主張 我覺得這個都有連貫但如果說你一個直轄市就是直轄市我跟你講 我們有沒有考慮過一個問題直轄市現在都已經是直轄市了 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
23251.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
23274.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
我們沒有也沒有設一個說多少人口以下他就不能當成直轄市法條上沒有這些喔沒有喔法條是沒有的喔那如果有一個縣市啊大家知道如果有一個直轄市我們現在六都裡面有一個直轄市他人口哪一天因為怎麼了沒有他還不是直轄市 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
23276.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
23305.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
如果任何一個直轄市他的哪一天的人口他降到100萬以下那也是三個喔這個我們都要通盤考量我不是說這不能考量這都必須考量而且都有可能發生所以我還是認為要給內政部他們一個時間提出一個大家可以接受的一個版本一個集區然後我們再來因為這個時間還有嘛對不對那給他們幾個月的時間我覺得這樣比較合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
23305.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
23316.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
對不對哪一天有一個直銷市人口不到一百萬他還是三個副市長喔這你也不能說不可能發生喔我覺得很有可能喔就是因為人口上上下下所以到底是用哪一個時間點到底是用就任那個時間點還是每隔一年可以檢討一次所以這個就是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
23332.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
23358.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
出生多少死亡多少不是在現場我們大家可以決定的內政部其實他都可以用韓式的方式另外再行來決定就看內政部部長到時候是怎麼去決定這件事情用哪一個時間點讓他們自行去決定但是我們這一次我提案的精神其實還是在現在地方自治事項其實越來越多其實就是增設一個副市長我同意他應該有一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
23360.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
23388.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
那個標準那個標準是用什麼來是絕對是不是只用絕對的人口數這是我提出來的問題因為各縣市其實都有工業區都有都有科學園區那個進出來的人口更多那那些人口我們難道不用服務嗎以台北市來說我們還為了內科要蓋捷運要要要做很多的管理要增設遠景什麼交通員其實各縣市都有這樣的困難跟挑戰所以我我才提出來那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
23388.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
23403.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
前提是這個這個經費不是中央負擔而且這個是得設置是由各縣市來決定那至於地方人口上上下下以台北市來說剛好現在就差距那麼一點點去年有今年突然又變沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
23404.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
23422.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
那我覺得那個就讓那個時間點跳動到底以哪個時間點為主是就任時間點那後面又變沒有了那到底可不可以設置那讓他們各縣市自己來含釋讓內政部來去做決定以上這是我的建議希望可以獲得大家的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
23424.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
23450.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
那本席也在這邊提出就是說我們撇開我們在哪一個縣市那一個直轄市現在台灣的六都都最少有160萬以上的人口其實我們持平而論你看50萬以下的都會有一個副縣長那所以160萬以上的這六都他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
23452.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
23473.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
設定給他們有三位副市長就純粹這樣看是不為過的當然每一位行政首長他要不要聘足我們可以尊重每一屆所當選的直轄市的市長那剛剛本席也了解李博義委員剛剛提到的如果哪一天這個到290幾萬的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
23476.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
23491.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
如果定300萬以上才有那是不是還差幾萬那他的負擔也很大這確實這包含本席也在這邊特別說明有一個例子就是當我們立法委員從變成單一選區兩票制之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
23495.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
23519.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
也是設定立委的選區大概都在25到35萬人口那有的多一點有的當然少一點還有少於25萬的本席在第八屆的時候本席新竹縣就一席立委五十幾萬人口結果我來到立法院我發現南投兩席立委加起來的選民數輸給我一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
23519.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
23534.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
我一個人因其立委的這個那也是因為當初在制定的時候我們的人口增加的快那現在因為社會的變遷我們覺得直轄市的市長都不好當是不是直轄市我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
23535.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
23555.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
都有在160萬以上所以我們這個可以考慮給直轄市我們都有三席的市長那但是有的又特多的那我們可以定一個標準就是部長講的人口數增加多少我們可以再讓它增加那這個總是標準要定出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
23556.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
23583.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
所以本席也提供這樣的一個想法這樣的一個想法我們從絕對的標準來看直轄市有三席副市長真的應該是不為過那一般縣市呢給他兩席但是有些覺得我拼第二席我沒有裁員我拼一席就好那這個縣市首長他可以他也有他的裁決所以這個部分我們看大家的意見怎麼樣我們可以慢慢收斂 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
23587.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
23593.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
就是 不好意思 我再補充一下因為 我覺得說討論看來像剛才你說的這樣也有人會贊成 到我的理解我是覺得說 你如果名額開哪有人大家不愛請的啦大家也希望請來分工合作所以我們是不是還願意向誰看那樣來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
23619.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
23623.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
你如果有名額,大家也要搶,我也要搶我還要去農會 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
23631.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
23653.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
那請張宏祿召委講完我們請部長再回應好不好剛剛部長好像也有意見嘛我認同這個東西必須要去討論要去改但是你如果沒有一個標準我真的覺得還是會造成很多的困難而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
23655.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
23681.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
縣市首長他本身就是必須要把他的縣市治理好他如果治理得好人口就最主動往他那邊移如果說直轄市的每個都三個副市長我覺得這樣子反而是沒有一個明確的標準那你一個直轄不管你是直轄市或是你是縣市首長或鄉鎮市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
23683.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
23705.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
每個人都是應該努力把他的那個他的管轄範圍內把他經營的好招商也好什麼的也好你只要招商好你努力你的人口一定是往你那邊跑啊這也是一個良性的一個民主競爭啊所以我認為這個都是可以討論所以我才會說啊我覺得啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
23706.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
23727.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
給內政部一些時間讓他弄一個比較全國都可以有的標準這樣子我們定期再來討論我覺得這是比較好的啦而不是說今天這樣子出去我覺得我們內政委員會在審法案我們必須也要覺得我們內政委員會真的很認真在審我是這種看法啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
23728.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
23752.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
我們不是說要出去我們剛剛提到標準所以也希望大家可以討論一下標準讓我們內政部長聽了回去他們也有他們專業的一些考量跟經驗所以其實都可以講剛剛張昭偉講一個我覺得非常好人口其實人口也不一定是涉及人口 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
23753.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
23779.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
这个活动人口真的也是其实像新竹县新竹县这个也是它虽然涉及人口多但实际上它常常都跑回各县市去因为它房子盖得多所以它现在人口一直增加但是到假日都空城那台北市就是又刚好相反它其实平常白天都300多万 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
23779.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
23790.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
好都300多萬但實際上房價貴所以它涉及的都在旁邊都在這個衛星都市所以人口可以我們那個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
23791.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
23809.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
劉部長這個考慮人口的時候涉及人口加流動人口一起考慮進去確實是那個報告召委我先回應你的很快速的問題流動人口如果照你這樣算的話那每個縣市都是往上加沒有往下減啊可是我們全國的總人口是往下降的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
23809.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
23834.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
我們剛才提到說你人口達到多少往上增可是我們就沒有一個退場機制人口沒有達到多少能不能往下降啊所以我才說我們在討論的時候55 56跟57都要一起討論才可以我很堅持的是這個啦好啊沒關係啦我們反正現在大家討論部長您所有的意見可以拿回去嘛那我們聽一下部長部長您還有什麼回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
23836.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
23858.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
謝謝我剛有特別提到第一個我希望討論的標準如果大家能夠設人口的話就用譬如說一百萬的極致不要用出現的百分之二這是極具上的標準這第一個然後第二個就是如果我們只有討論直轄市然後漏掉非直轄市的部分的話這個會引起更大的反彈這個我想大家都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
23861.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
23880.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
所以我才特別建議五十五跟五十六一定要考量然後另外一個沒有在修法裡面的五十七條也一定要考慮就是剛剛張宏祿委員所提到的譬如說他有提到連江縣現在的人口是一萬三千九百五那你變成有兩個副縣長 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
23882.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
23902.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
可是竹北市跟彰化市他們現在就二十幾萬人口可是在五十七條裡面呢又說三十萬才可以增加一個那這個級距未免是太大了那個大家都知道彰化市彰化縣的彰化市還有新竹縣的竹北市它可以增設可是它的人口的級距是三十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
23903.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
23917.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
好那這個是非常不公平他已經是十倍或是二十倍以上不是說只有來來回回三五萬而已那所以我才會一直堅持說無論怎麼樣五十五五十六五十七這三條一定要一起考量才可以啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
23921.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
23936.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
不過有一點剛剛本席一直忘了講這個部長的利益非常好555 657要就一起討論可是今天就沒有57條進來所以我們不反對就像我們那時候在修村議長的 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
23937.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
23956.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
这个年终慰劳金还有县市议员的这个助理的时候其实我们忘了乡长你知道吗因为没有人提啊乡长的特别费之前被砍掉还有代表会的主席副主席所以其实我们回到地方那时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
23958.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
23981.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
我們在修的時候就是有什麼法案進來我們就針對那個討論嘛那回去以後我們當然會面對他們說其實我們都沒有討論到我們我說對啊那下次有法案進來的時候可以討論所以第57條這次既然沒有進來但是我們覺得部長提了未來內政部可以有版本我們委員也可以來提 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
23983.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
23997.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
就像本席竹北市也是本席這個從政開始的一個鄉鎮市所以我們可以再提但今天就5556那部長是不是你這邊會提個主決議嗎還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
24001.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
24016.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
有嗎抱歉剛剛是不是有討論主決議不是由我們來提但是如果我提的話我一定要三條一起提否則我對不起那些鄉鎮籍的人那另外那個剛剛徐召瑋所提到的鄉長或者是鄉鎮民黨我只是舉例說我們在討論的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
24019.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
24045.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
可能那個案子沒進來我們也不可能說我現在就是這幾個進來我當然就這個討論那個不是內政部主管不好意思那個是行政院人事行政總署的函式處理所以我的意思就是說我們在討論的時候那時候也是那個案沒有放進來所以那時候召委排了什麼案我們就這個而且互不抵觸有的可以之後再加沒有說現在這個過了那個不 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
24047.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
24064.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
也一定要把它拉進來才能一起過沒有嘛 互不抵觸的所以是可以脫鉤的本席要表達的是這個是可以脫鉤的好 那我想這樣啦我們尊重55條的提案人那林運秀委員現在跟部長有沒有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
24065.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
24079.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
部長我剛才講得非常清楚就是說我尊重大家的意思大家要併在一起再討論我也尊重下個會期但大家也大概知道我的想法是什麼以台北市來說現階段就是249萬去年還有250萬上上下下所以我覺得那個時間點可以授權給 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
24090.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
24109.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
這個內政部來去做決定那就是說我們今天可以做什麼樣的處理是寫一個主決議還是附帶意見就是說未來但未來兩個月之後我們要可以法條要怎麼修正那個再說但今天可以用什麼樣的主決議有機會跟部長這邊達成內政部這邊達成共識我想聽聽部長的意見對啦這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
24116.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
24143.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
如果說提案委員特別提到台北市那這個台北市他其實確實也很冤枉250上上下下我覺得啦我們在內政部在整個在考量這個法條要修正的時候我們可以請內政部去考量一下如果就像李委員說如果他在就職的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
24144.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
24168.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
已經有幾個了然後呢在那個任期裡面呢他因為人口上上下下需不需要去調這個任期比如說多少之類的要不要去我覺得你們我們下會期要來討論或是要修法要再重新我們再折期再討論的時候其實內政部可以把這個意見你們研究的拿出來給我們內政委員會我們大家來討論來那個我覺得這樣子是比較合理的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
24176.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
24203.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
我可不可以補充一下 剛剛張委員的意見是這樣子那個借次為主 譬如說現在的台北市他還是三個副市長那不會是因為他調到249萬就請第三個副市長走人 不是這樣子是借滿為止 他做到這一屆借滿為止所以沒有請他走人啦 我想我們在公務系統裡面大概不至於這樣子那如果副市長是借滿是市長借滿為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
24205.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
24233.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
市長藉滿為止因為副市長是政務官啊市長做到什麼事他就做到什麼事所以一直到2026都可以有三席副市長嗎藉次 對 這一屆不要隨便離職就好他不要離職但是市長不能調整副市長的職務嗎市長當然有權調整副市長他如果調整會調整的話是可以的嗎當然可以調整他的職務啊那如果調整的時候他沒辦法249萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
24235.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
24254.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
可以啊 還是可以嗎不是所以我的意思是說他們我們下回請他把這個說清楚他在說現況啦現況請他可以解釋清楚現況沒有入法嘛譬如說台北市政府的附4.3的法他就做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
24255.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
24280.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
蔣市長這一屆的屆期滿為止那如果有人因為身體健康因素那市長可以調換譬如說我請A換成B副市長可以嗎他換什麼我們沒意見因為這是市長的職責OK OK我可以做到2026是這樣嗎那燕秀委員你的認知你給我燕 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
24289.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
24291.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
阿姨 可不可以上來一門店啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
24292.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
24297.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
因為市長要任命什麼人當副市長不是在我們地方製作法裡面講的啊所以我們怎麼會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
24322.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
24326.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
他人口數達250萬會不會有不同的意見內政部在現場來請回答譬如說現在台北市只有249萬或高雄市譬如說現在沒有達250萬他要替換更迭副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
24339.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
24360.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
那內政部會不會有意見如果其中有一位副市長離職的話那就是欲缺不補離職離職跟市長調度不一樣對不對或是退休退休跟離職現在副市長大概都很年輕他都是政務的 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
24363.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
24385.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
不是吧 我們不要預設年輕或那個就是說可能會有離職退休或是各種情況目前我的解釋是沒有缺沒有缺如果先調論到其他位置就可以不用少一個是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
24392.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
24413.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
我覺得說簡單的就好了,不要說很複雜啦部長,你剛剛說副市長可以換人,但是又說那個離職因為他離職的時候人口數沒有達到250萬,所以會調到只剩下兩位叫做欲缺不補 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
24416.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
24440.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
那調職也不行 調職喔 調職也是離職沒有沒有 你不要說一件事 而是我們每一種情況要去了解我們所有的標準不外乎要分一層總共要去了解 所以我們還想討論 這些先保留保留保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
24445.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
24463.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
我還是希望是不是請部長回去演 因為畫一條線249萬 250萬為了那一萬塊 一萬人 那不是一萬塊 一萬人拼命的去拉新北市拉旁邊大家去比福利政策 我覺得實在是沒有意義所以能不能有一點點誤差範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
24465.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
24471.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
245萬到250萬我們在帳樑面積的時候所以我們可不可以用這個方式 用主決議或者是你去思考 下次我們在開會的時候你給我們一點ASOBI的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
24488.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
24499.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
那個報告委員這樣子我們剛問的話就是離職也好調職也好我們還是需要去請教一下權序部他們的定義是什麼那如果是內政部可以決定的話不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
24504.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
24529.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
就是說讓我們有時間去請教一下全序部啦那個否則我們現在在那邊講了半天結果我們都不是主政機關我們做了任何決議都不好但是那個我們委員如果有做這個附帶決議的話我們一定會去處理全序部今天有來來我們今天全序部來全序部法規司副司長來鄭淑芬副司長請你來說明一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
24541.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
24545.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
主席各位委員那剛剛一直在討論那個副市長的這個訂 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
24547.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
24565.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
如果就不來講他是定性為政務人員那他的聘期因為他是規範在地制法裡面地制法我們並不會去管轄到政務人員的任免所以說實在你說是我們的權責我有點為難這不是屬於我們的部分對 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
24581.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
24582.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
來人事行政總署 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
24600.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
24627.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
主編人力處張專委可以嗎這個政務官的任命主席還有各位委員大家好那我們人事總署這邊我這邊主編人力是有關預算員的部分編制員的部分對所以目前的話涉及我們主編人力這邊的話是有關地方政府有關在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
24629.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
24656.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
內政部的那個編制下面有關行政院去控管的一個編制的一個情況那至於說那個市長的那個副市長的這個人口數這個變化的部分他的一個聯動啊我們知道內政部有一個函式就是說就是在下一屆副市長就是說下一屆的市長前的時候他必須就是不要再新聘將我們大概知道內政部有這樣的一個函式那以上是我們所知道的這個部分謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
24658.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
24659.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
欸 等一下 要說清楚還不要走 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
24660.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
24689.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
內政部還有規定說不能新聘所以他的副市長他要求要要跟市長同進隊中間不能換人應該不太可能吧他好像是在110年的時候有一個含釋啊那大概就是形容說就是到下一屆就剛剛部長所講的那樣到下一屆前這樣那我們是主要是管員額的部分所以以上是就這樣所以像以台北市的例子是不是到下一屆之前都有三席呢副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
24696.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
24717.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
對他沒有辭職只是是市長如果換人呢就市長換不同的副市長來做這個位置因為這個是解釋的規定那是不是我們會後再跟相關機關在座會上這個需要特別解釋看看這個解釋有沒有改變的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
24726.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
24739.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
我覺得這件事情他們勢必要解釋清楚因為這個牽涉不只台北市全國各縣市其實特別在六都人口上上下下在任期內都有可能發生這樣子的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
24740.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
24760.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
那我剛才講的就是說有250萬是不是用一條線還是說可以有一點誤差範圍比如說245萬到250萬之間我希望這是一個考量的範圍第二個就是這250萬未來是不是有機會不要用絕對的人口數涉及戶籍數 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
24762.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
24788.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
我們也要考量到就是250萬它是不是一個最恰當的數字啦比如說你也要考量流動的人口所以這個250萬是不是它是不是一個最好的考量的數字我尊重部長剛才講的不要用比例用一個人口數大家比較好去規劃就好去計算所以如果這個要好好討論的話我希望也去考量到電信令的這個流動人口一併把它納進來討論所以是不是250 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
24791.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
24816.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
那我也希望有一點可以有一個range的比如說240到250之間不要說大家為了這個數字拼命去拉這些用這些社福政策我覺得沒有意義新北拉到台北台北拉到新北或拉到桃園我覺得沒有太大的意義因為大家就是一個共同的生活圈我希望用這三個方向讓內政部來思考那我們是不是可以訂一個時間讓比如說給他們一個月的時間因為沒差一樣是下個會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
24822.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
24831.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
給他們訂一個時間那我們再來去處理這個案子那我希望就這幾點我的建議是不是請內政部可以給我們具體的回應給我們一個答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
24839.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
24844.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
那是不是請部長謝謝李委員的指教第一個要不要用250萬這樣一個非常這個剛性的這個數字來訂定這個副市長的人數我想確實是有討論的空間但是如果不是用250萬那他到底是240到260還是200到300 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
24859.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
24882.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
這個部分我們剛問過了包括人事行政總署或是包括全序部他們都有不同的見解是不是讓我們有一點時間跟他們來溝通一下同時我們會再繼續跟台北市、桃園市跟台南市就是三個有可能受到直轄市政府市長要不要增設一人或者是少設一人的狀況再給我們多一點時間跟他們討論一下可能會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
24884.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
24896.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
也就是說我們的出發點都是善意的這個出發但是我還是非常堅持就是如果要不管是一個月或者是下個會議在討論的時候55 56 57這三個一定都要一起討論否則我對不起其他的鄉鎮市或者對不起其他的縣市政府包括嘉義市在內因為如果你只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
24907.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
24936.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
只有針對這個做主要的決議的話還是會出現困擾那如果這樣子大家有同樣的這個共識的話呢我建議會把這個李委員剛所提的部分還有我所提的這個部分把它列進去那我們在一個月後或下個會期再來統一來討論我們都是用善意的想法但是我們跟每個縣市政府提供的意見真的太多不容易整合就好像我今天上午講的某一個縣政府他反對但是下午推出他又同意所以我們不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
24937.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
24938.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
我們家醫師也要一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
24954.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
24969.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
所以5556相似性比較高啦 5556一起啦你571可以 目前沒有委員提進來嘛那內政部也可以提案 我們內政部可以有版本所以剛剛部長說一個月後嗎 部長剛剛說一個月後是一個月還是兩個月 你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
24979.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
25006.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
對部長你說一個月他說兩個月可以喔好不好因為現在碰到農曆過年然後那個要求內政部是一個報告的話呢時間會比較短但是如果要到行政院的話會再繞一圈可能要超過兩個月沒有沒有我們針對5556啦5556就純粹副市長副縣長這個案提報告案是嗎提一個報告因為如果提修法動議還有那個大院的程序委員會沒有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
25010.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
25029.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
就是報告 針對我們今天開會的內容 還有開會的內容還是要回去徵詢了解一下 還有針對特殊案例的回覆一個是我們通案 因為556大家討論到所謂的副市長副縣長 到底這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
25032.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
25053.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
樓地板 天花板再加上如果人口增加要多少再增設我們先訂一個 然後有增加再增設這個部分給內政部兩個月好不好我們要不要提條文那個 報告召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
25056.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
25066.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
三月中三月中 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
25074.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
25098.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
可能是二月底啦你可能二月底可能啦喔,今天又開了一個歌對,對,重複歌歌對啦,又繼續啦不是啦,大家在裡面都表達出來齁都溝通欸,今天不是喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
25099.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
25108.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
今天是最後一天嗎?禮拜三禮拜三禮拜三要開嗎?今天是最後一天嗎?今天是最後一天耶拜三拜四不開嗎?對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
25120.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
25134.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
因為大家都沒有開了然後沒說三四要怎樣?三四要不要開會?不用吧,不用吧拜託啦,這位,這是誰和那個FV玩的?啊,走了啦葉秀,葉秀,她有事她有,她說兩個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
25147.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
25160.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
三個月,只有一起三個月啊對啦,跟趙金蕾作會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
25192.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
25192.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
大概20個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
25199.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
25224.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
那我们55 56条我们就请内政部两个月两个月后提供大概三月中的时候对三月中旬的时候可以提到内政委员会来好那本席在这边要征求一下我们刚刚前面讲不处理我们是不是改成另定其处理尊重一下这些委员因为不处理他的案就死了所以我们另定其处理好吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
25225.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
25251.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
那現在就是不在場的我們都另訂其處理好嗎所以第五十六十一對我們現在進入六十一條吳立華委員不在所以我們另訂其處理七十八條李昆成委員的我們也另訂其處理那還有八十三條之三吳立華委員還有陸委員在等一下等一下後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
25253.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
25255.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
83條之山有盧委員在場所以我們現在請盧委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
25261.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
25289.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
就說看說明這邊就是改制前的3D箱其實自治是向中原民定的稅捐及公共債務的權利改制之後3D原住民區現行本法針對稅捐及公共債務的規定卻都沒有有建議保障3D原住民地區的財政自主權利因應3D原住民區的自治是向中原民定所以希望我的修正條文就是在第二款的第三幕跟第四幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
25290.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
25316.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
手上資料應該有吧我就不再念了這個這個來請張昭偉這個其實早上大家其實都有一些想法都有都說了啦我覺得啦你們內政部跟財政部你們就跟我們講說你們多久可以引你出一個然後再來立法內政委員會報告我覺得這樣比較快啦不要再講那麼多了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
25317.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
25342.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
那請內政部財政部提一下我們在場提案委員盧委員如果OK還有在場的委員都OK我們就可以做成決議因為剛好碰到過年了是不是給我們一點過年不是才九天嗎我發現還蠻複雜的就牽涉到修正不是你直接講多久時間就是三個月了可不可以可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
25344.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
25365.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
那我們就是想了兩個月可以嗎兩個月可以嗎就比較比較複雜啦他要算他要對三個月謝謝好謝謝委員盧委員相關的後面從83條之3一直往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
25367.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
25388.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
對 都是齁一直到 到支持了這個雖然盧委員在但高金委員跟那個吳麗華委員他們的案子都一樣啦都是同一條啦對啊 所以我們我們就給三個月好不好三個月後請提出來這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
25391.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
25414.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
完整的 針對這三位委員所提的稍微 還有早上我懸答講 因為既然講到原住民那個性別平等的那個部分也請內政部一起處理我的已經提案了那個是在33條那個不是83 那是33我就一併借此討論就是提報告案是嗎好提報告案 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
25420.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
25433.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
那我們就...對,沒有委員提這個案可以...不行啦,等你的進來好不好應該是等那個放行委員的他的案子進來,並案討論才對 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
25448.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
25464.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
好那我們協商結論討論事項所列議案令定期繼續審查可以喔本次議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝大家謝謝主席辛苦了大家辛苦了 |