| IVOD_ID |
164624 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164624 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-22T13:24:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-22T13:33:20+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da9db6f2fb2238acb234f1f132b5784e0493e73b30866c1936eb97dbb4eb1fdcfb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
楊曜 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:24:35 - 13:33:20 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：審查
一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
五、委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
【僅詢答】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席 主席請您下 洪部長請洪部長部長我們今天討論就是外送平台管理的部分我們先不討論就討論從業人員權益保障相關的法律因為其實平台的管理可能跟勞動部本身比較沒有積極的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
34.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我想要先請教一下部長就是說有委員版本有民進黨團版本部裡面沒有版本我們有在研議然後已經到最後的階段所以你們是贊成的對不對因為外送平台的從業人員可能會越來越多那各國的立法例譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
61.064 |
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| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
說歐盟他是有用一個工作指令那可能有有要求加盟國是需要要立法那西班牙的歧視法等等那我想要請問一下就是就是外國的立法力都有認定或者推定外送員跟平台業者的關係是雇用關係那不一定像 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
像西班牙的歧視法西班牙歧視法是 但是不一定都是我們你個人認為是不是雇傭關係那不是雇傭關係的話是什麼關係跟文說明的確他到底在勞動關係上面是不是雇傭關係這是很多大家在討論的爭點之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
115.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
143.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
到目前為止的確還有各方包括在專業界上看法不一定都一致的地方所以我們自己認為如果今天要有一個法制化的工作的話其實我們可以做的方式可以是希望外送員要有哪些權益的保障我們其實用正面的方式把它給列入然後把它給放出來這個會不會有怪異漏案的問題就是說我大概知道你們的立場你們的立場就是要跳脫契約的定性 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
144.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
然後呢 一條一條來列一條一條來列風險還蠻大的但是因為現在因為我們也不會認為他是單純的承攬關係我們也不這樣認為所以這也是為什麼其實在一些國家他會有點認知他是有點像是一個中間類型或者是有點像是一個準了 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
169.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
181.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
類勞工所以他也是在這裡面其實有一點點模糊地帶在認代這個事情不是定型的契約啦還是用定型契約只是他的勞動關係不是傳統的那樣子的勞動關係那 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
187.208 |
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所以也就是說在修法的過程勞動部這邊可能必須要很謹慎啦因為沒有一個有名契約可以來容納這樣子的一個商業勞資類型的契約那要一項一項來標示這個是一件必須要很小心的而且要很縝密對那 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
222.373 |
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| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這也是這個法其實在訂定上面跟傳統過去的勞動法規挑戰比較多的地方是在這個地方對啦可能也就是為什麼那麼多人都主張包括委員包括勞動部都主張必須要訂定專法的一個原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
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可是現在就是說外國的立法例大概都有要求平台業者攸關外送員的勞權和薪資的演算法必須要公開透明因為外送員高度依賴平台的分派工作獲得報酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
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外送員對於平台業者演算法是不是公平分派外送員並沒有辦法知道那勞動部可能必須要在修法的同時就必須要先 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
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先研究看怎麼要求平台業者演算法管理有一定程度的公開這個要求人家完全公開這個是不可能因為這個裡面涉及到很多商業秘密可是假如完全不公開其實你再怎麼立法都很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
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| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
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落實保障外送員權益外送員最擔心的是當他可能被做了一些不利的處分的時候他很難去詢問到底為什麼或者是怎麼做成這個處分到底這個處分的根源到底是有道理還是沒道理還是被過度的不成比例的的懲罰那這事情是外送員現在最擔心的是這件事情所以這部分也是我們要給他更多的保障的原因對欸 |
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就是在等待外送的時間算不算醜啦 算不算委員在講的是說當然就是說他的工作期間所以我認為可能我們會需要去界定一個他的上限期間上限期間是什麼意思 |
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跟委員報告那個剩限期限就是指他今天可以開始提供外送服務所以他就按就說我現在是可以開始我就啟動那個機器這時候呢他可能在等然後真正接到單呢我們就認為那叫外送外送服務時間對這兩個是不太一樣對對對我我我現在講的是說你師長再講一下這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
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外送員如果覺得他現在可以提供勞務譬如說從現在開始對 他按下去這時候就是所謂的上限期間然後上限以後他不見得馬上等到單有時候他會拒單等到他單來了他也同意了 按下去我說我接了這時候他開始要騎車去餐廳的時候這個路上我們認為就是外送服務期間這個才算 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
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待命時間不算就是他開始覺得他可以送這個不算如果沒有上限那就跟上限都沒有關那就跟一般狀態一樣對 因為是這樣子就是我覺得勞工的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
435.06 |
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然後平台的合理利潤商家的生意怎麼穩定然後消費者怎麼減少支出這個是一個很複雜的關係那要完全讓它四方面都可以平衡這個在立法的過程可能真的有很多東西必須要討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
464.107 |
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這真的在立法的技術上面當然是因為它涉及到多方的厲害相關方一個是厲害相關方多第二個涉及到的部會也多所以在立法技術上確實是需要很小心的琢磨這個就是除了立法技術以外呢其實在立法的過程怎麼去橫平 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
488.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
各項的價值不只是勞工權益價值可能憑各項價值然後怎麼兼顧各方利益讓大家都可以當然不可能全部滿意可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
503.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
521.041 |
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怎麼讓大家在只要有多方的啦我都覺得立法的結果就是盡可能讓大家雖然不滿意可是都可以接受讓制度可以持久的進行這個才重要好不好謝謝楊要委員謝謝楊要委員發言 |