| IVOD_ID |
164613 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164613 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-22-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-22T09:13:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-22T09:27:05+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da43ca8a4c569e35f3ad42acad3a0f8ea62d78011594ec5757b8d54088b54cead65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林沛祥 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:13:05 - 09:27:05 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【10月22日及23日兩天一次會】） |
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好 謝謝主席 有請吳主委請主委林委員好 主委好國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手手上掌握了兩大關鍵的戰略資產一個是我們的半導體另外一個就是我們的太空通訊不過在面對日劑升高的國際威脅的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.054 |
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51.671 |
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本席认为我们的科技政策似乎还停留在所谓20世纪末的产业思维就是1970到1980年代之后的产业思维对于我们现在21世纪的多元化国际化的挑战那对于整个挑战上面的应变防护任性建构缺乏清晰比较具体的部署 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
53.223 |
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我們就先從半導體開始講起好了主委半導體是我們台灣的經濟命脈那也是說我們在面對不管是中國軍事還是美國關稅還是甚至是日本的日本甚至韓國的這個商業間諜的威脅灰色地帶滲透 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
81.213 |
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甚至惡意的關鍵人才挖角的時候本席對於我們台灣在半導體產業的未來競爭優勢其實我是憂心的而國科會主導的這個精創台灣計畫十年三千億目標宏大 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
90.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
99.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
不过在面对21世纪的国际化多元化的威胁的时候我比较关心所谓防护跟韧性而不是一般一昧的只是讲所谓的扩张 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
122.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
143.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們並沒有特別去計算這個比例,但是在硬體的治安,在利用科技來增加國家的韌性,這一點我們現在是非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業需要的晶片, |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
144.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
154.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們都會支持所以全部都含在裡面主委因為比較尷尬的點是在於半導體有人稱我記得有媒體稱是為半導體產業在台灣已經從矽鈍變成核式幣人人欲得知 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
160.954 |
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190.594 |
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所以说面对敌意国家我想这个敌意国家严格讲起来我不是指任何一个国家但是every country for themselves所以每个国家都会自己的利益为做最优先的打算所以也有可能每一个国家对中华民国都是有敌意的这点我们必须认同产业就是这样那面对敌意国家对于我们的半导体产业链包括原料设备设计跟晶圆厂的锻炼威胁国科会具体的反制跟备原方案为何 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
191.915 |
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206.212 |
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我们其实对于我们的关键核心的科技我们都有盘点都有保护那对于所有的国家愿意跟台湾做合理的往来友好的国家我们当然都会 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
207.193 |
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231.408 |
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愿意跟他合作因为台湾不能够只看自己国内的市场我们的半导体是要开拓全球的市场所以不能够把自己关在自己的国家里面所谓合理请解释一下合理当然就是在贸易上条件是合理的那允许我们去合理的去做生意所以你认为现在肖副总统讲的ICTY是合理的咯 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
232.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
252.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我们的技术委员不用担心我们的技术绝对是跟有台湾没有从来没有改变这个态度我们的研发绝对是在台湾吴助委您认为萧副总统讲的ICT产业外移这是好还是坏事萧总统讲的不是外移我们是要扩散我们的实力我们当然要做生意啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
253.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
270.757 |
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我们现在半导体产业因为美国非常庞大的市场我只是单纯从一个科技打关者的角度来看请问这是好还是坏是好的因为台湾如果不往外去扩散的话我们的实力没有办法展现到全世界各个角落 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
271.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
273.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以我们当然是希望能够展现实力 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
301.737 |
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329.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
没有恶意不恶意只有威胁只有威逼利诱拐骗偷抢没有所知要在合法可是法所以我为什么说国际化因为国际法是国际每个国家都说它自己是合法的像我个人认为美国有些时候对我们的一些大厂做出一些相对用美国的反托拉斯法对我们的国家大厂在国外去做出严重的罚款这一点都不合理但是合他们的法 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
330.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
348.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
但合不合中华民国法律不合所以这一点甚至现在我们也知道捷安特现在因为外劳的原因被美国科语重罚这也是不合理但是合不合美国法合美国的法那这一点来讲就是我提到的国际化跟多元化的威胁尤其在半导体产业上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
349.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
370.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那这一点来讲身为国科会主委的吴主委您就必须要再三考虑我们现在做的所有作为到底是保护台湾的产业呢还是在销还是在实质上在削弱我们台湾的产业国科会的业务范围我们发展科学园区我们投入资源做科技研发我们回到金创计划好了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
371.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
391.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那金创计划如何确保今天联发投资不会在明日的冲突之中我指的冲突因为半导体之间的竞争严格讲起来这不用实质上的战争也是一场看不见烟消的战争透过关税 透过保护措施透过各种惩罚措施这种战争叫做看不见的战争 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
420.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這種看不見的戰爭有時候摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈飛來飛去風火連天但是實質上對於國家的摧毀性不亞於一場戰爭所以為什麼我想說精創計畫如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們的最先進的技術研發一定是在台灣我們並沒有外移 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
421.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
435.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是我們在生意上一定要拓展台灣的實力這就是我現在等一下要問到的我們一直在講我們最先進的技術我們原發技術都是在台灣那主委半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼人 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
436.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
462.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那想請問這些也是我們敵對勢力我們敵對的國家在半導體上面競爭的國家不管是惡意競爭就是敵對那在這種惡意勢力灰色地帶滲透挖角甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標那想請問國科會作為科技主管機關針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護包括防滲透防挖角防威脅協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
463.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
477.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我们最近政府对这一点已经更进一步强化国客会现在也跟法务部非常紧密在合作具体有些什么具体有些什么这个具体我们有一些机密的这个措施是不方便透露但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
478.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
506.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們在保護我們敏感科技我們還有已經進到我們的國安法的範圍之內這個是國會跟經濟部還有法務部是一起在合作的所以這個請委員放心我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊因為你剛剛講說如果您認同ICT的產業外移ICT那個產業鏈包括設計都要外移 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
508.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
537.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那不好意思我先讓我講完那我就很擔心因為不管是說去伸展國家實力然後我們的台灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士科技人才居然到美國去當美國公民當美國的F1簽證的時候然後我們這樣子來講我們這樣子就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯我們頂尖的理工博士人才因為新資結構的失衡我們在台灣是在增加沒有在空洞化沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
537.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
563.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我们是往外拓展我们的实力我们这样讲当如果说我在美国待过很久一阵时间当美国如果你能拿到美国签证你能在美国落地生根的时候你就会在美国落地生根因为台湾我还没讲我们很多美国落地生根又回到台湾来贡献的也非常多新资的结构失衡大量流向业界这个不是事实我们在台湾在增加当中我们在中科南科都在持续在扩敞 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
564.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
582.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
最不可能不可能是空洞話要培養的人才在這一段時間之內大幅度的所以委員不要再我們只是在討論那這個事情如果說真的會是事實所以我跟委員澄清一下我們現在是討論說這個未來趨勢是很明顯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
585.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
611.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那你如果說現在不是事實但是未來是不是趨勢我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈流到美國去有沒有這個可能性有沒有就好我們到廠商到美國設廠擴產那設廠到美國的時候他們的人在美國如果要合法工作是不是要F1簽證是不是要拿到綠卡我們當然盡量要拼我們要拼的是當地的人才啊請問一下拿到綠卡他們會不會回來要擴充台灣的實力要拼用當地的人才這個才是正途 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
612.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
626.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主委我們今天不是在做討論我們是在討論說所謂的人才我講的就是事實台積電在美國你講的是事實但是我講的是趨勢而且我們都可以不是預設立場大家都可以看到的趨勢的時候現在人才斷層就是國安斷層我們不是也有外國的廠商到台灣來設廠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
628.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
654.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
他到台灣來他也要聘用台灣的人才啊我們到美國去也是聘用外國人才互相交流把我們最優質的人才往美國送然後把外國人才進來的時候並不是他們最優秀的人才的時候我覺得這件事是很危險的事情我們不是把人才往美國送不是這樣講法我們是要擴充我們的實力我們在美國教會了當地人才製造 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
655.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
683.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
幫我們做製造我們的實力就擴充了台灣的人力有限我們要帶全世界做生意當然要往外擴充這樣台灣才會更強大我必須在這邊重新再提出一次主委我們今天要討論的我是相對來講我是想就是論是討論未來國安人才人才 斷才你現在如果只是以現在的事實以現在你所認同的事實國科院是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展我鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
685.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
714.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好 所以說蕭副總統講的話你完全認同我認同我們要把全世界跟台灣的連結要強化所以我當然我們要把我們的實力往外拓展讓全世界使用台灣製造的技術那是不是我們台灣的人才會外流呢會不會我們不會外流為什麼不會外流當美國的薪資是我們的三倍的時候為什麼不會外流我們要交流我們要跟別人學習當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候為什麼不會外流 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
715.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
734.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
不會外流我們的人才會往來國外也有人才會進到台灣來這個不叫外流我們要讓自己更強大不能夠鎖國你在業界待過吧你在業界待過就知道有一個人講過一句話人才為什麼留不住因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
735.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
764.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
钱给的不够多心受委屈了老实说钱给的够不够多是所有不管在商业人才里面最主要的一块我们台湾的经济实力会一直不断的进步可是我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟日本的就业市场拼比我们的薪资结构就没有人家强的时候我们的薪水就没有人家高的时候我们还期待说用爱国心来一直把台湾人才留住这是对业界是不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
765.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
791.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們如果產生不往外擴散我剛剛講過惡意的敵對勢力或者是要講敵意的勢力因為這是一個看不見煙消的戰爭所有國家針對半導體的優勢的消長都有可能去對台灣的威脅那這一點來講的時候我們就必須很現實的看到這些那我們現在在講人才會不會流失那你一直說 篤定說不會因為現在事實就不會現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始移動委員 我的策略跟你完全相反 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
791.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
811.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你講的目的我是同意的台灣要更強更強的話我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力這樣台灣才會越來越富有越來經濟實力越好我們的技術研發的資金會更多我比較擔心人才的培養而不是擔心說單單純純只是產業的流失我們最近你剛剛講過說台灣最核心的是人我們的優質人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
820.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
838.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
但是当我们的优质人才一批的被因为高薪而去美国的时候我就担心这样的存在而这是趋势谢谢好谢谢配箱委员诸葳请回座是如果配箱委员他这边咨询的你没有诸葳没有回答完整的部分请他会后再送资料给你 |