| IVOD_ID |
16448 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16448 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-06 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
25 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-06T08:30:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-06T15:42:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
07:11:21 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcd57c7c755d2781a4a74692de86cf8f7f529fa0cca45d5627e049aed1f49134c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-06T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：繼續併案審查
（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。
（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員林思銘等16人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第三十七章章名及第三百六十四條條文草案」案。
（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第十章之一、第一百七十二條之一及第一百七十二條之二條文草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:39 - 15:42:00 |
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SPEAKER_04 |
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25845.30846875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1958.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1964.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會 出席委員五人 以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開始開會 我們現在先進行報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1988.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2008.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第十一屆第二會起司法及法治委員會第二次次全體委員會議議事錄省鎮中華民國一百十四年一月二日星期四上午九時三分至十二十九分下午一時十九分至三時五十五分立聯本院紅樓三零二會議室出席委員羅文志強等十二人列席委員王委員易川等四人 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2008.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2024.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
列席官员司法院副秘书长王梅英等人主席中召集委员嘉宾报告事项宣读上次会议事录决定确定讨论事项继续审查司法院函情审议税务行政事件审理法草案及行政法院组织法部分条文修认草案案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2025.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2043.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
決議依稅務行政事件審理法草案大提議討論完畢進行逐條審查名稱第二條第三條第六條第八條第九條第十七條至第二十四條第二十六條第二十八條至第三十條第三十二條及第三十三條均照司法院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2044.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2066.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
第一條處守據修正為為妥適迅速徹底專業解決稅務爭議外與照司法院提案通過第4條第5條第7條第10條第27條及第31條均暫保留通過附帶決議一項本案令定期繼續審查二行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案令定期繼續審查宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2072.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2100.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
請問各位 上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話 議事錄確定我們接著介紹在場委員及應邀列席官員我們首先介紹在場委員 鐘昭偉陳委員我們接著介紹應邀列席的官員 首先法務部鎮部長法務部常次 黃常次謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2104.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2129.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
其餘未介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄我們本次議程排定討論事項繼續閉案審查台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚中華民國刑法部分條文修正查案等7案閉案中第一至四案業經113年7月11日第一次會期本會第三期次全體委員會議報告及詢問完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2132.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2156.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
決議令定期繼續審查 至今 院會再交付第五至第六案 由於今日排入議程 繼續併案審查現在先進行後續附委併案審查 個案之提案說明 發言時間三分鐘我們先 羅志強委員不在嗎 林思明委員也不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2157.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2168.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
是請說好那這樣子因為我也是提案人是不是因為好謝謝謝謝謝謝太好了謝謝好非常謝謝鍾昭偉我們這次就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2186.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2203.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
妨礙司法公正罪我們這個部分主要是因為我一直覺得說有兩個法案非常的重要而且是民眾很期待的我想這個在各黨之間也都沒有太大的歧義就是妨礙司法公正罪以及公義接避者保護法這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2206.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2229.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
一個法案其實這個對於一個國家的透明度在世界的評比上面都是一個非常重要的參考指數所以我到立法院之後呢我一直希望能夠至少讓這兩個法案能夠過關在公益階壁者保護法的時候我是希望說能夠讓各個機關或各個公司裡面勇於階壁的我們國家要政府要給他一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2230.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2245.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
有意義的保障那在妨害司法公正罪這個部分主要是說我們也要賦予我們國家司法人員他有一個武器他有一個方式可以告訴那些來對他進行不法關說的人因為目前的現行法 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2246.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2266.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
對於法官 檢察官你要到一定的程度譬如說行賄的程度那可能才會構成犯罪那在這個之外呢其實他的規範不夠明確以至於很多時候司法人員他即使要告訴他的長官說我不想這麼做或者是他告訴外人他的長官告訴外人說他不接受關說他變成沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2267.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2282.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
很有效的依據所以我們認為說妨礙司法公正罪除非一方面是讓公平正義得以彰顯之外另外一方面我們也要賦予我們第一線的司法人員他有一個法律上的依據可以告訴大家說 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2283.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2299.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我不能做這件事我做這件事的話除了對不起良心之外我還有法律上面的責任所以我相信防範司法公正罪它同時是在維護社會正義之外它也是在保護我們的司法人員所以這兩個法案是我在立法院一直希望趕快通過的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2301.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2323.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
但是因為行政院他在108年9月17號已經法案有法務部已經送到行政院了可是一直到今天都還沒有送到立法院所以這個狀況下我們變成說我們就沒有辦法再等了就跟之前的潔癖者保護法一樣我們都一直在等下去不知道會等到什麼時候那既然108年行政院就拿到了那到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2325.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2339.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
14年了5年過去了也都沒有送出來我想我們立法院還是必須盡到我們的職責趕快把它做到所以我們認為這段時間我們還是要避免這個國家有一些權貴的人他利用金錢或是一些賄賂 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2340.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2359.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
來去影響證人或是影響這些法官檢察官我們希望說這些都沒有那當然在過去有一些已經是被判決確定認為有關說的案子那些我們也要把它當作是教材在於將來我們希望不要有這種事情發生譬如說之前桃檢發生的某一個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2360.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2380.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那有一個逃漏稅的關說案那導致後來檢察長也離開了像這種東西關說就不應該成立或像之前柯總召他也有一件疑似的案子所以我希望說在將來我們都不要讓這些事情發生那再來就是說棄保潛逃的部分我們也是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2381.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2408.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
國家目前對於氣保潛逃除了沒落他的保證金之外並沒有其他有效的作為那我們希望將來除了能夠沒落保證金之外我們同時也可以對他有科與一定的刑責只要有科與刑責在那自然檢方或是警察他就有一定的譬如說通緝或什麼方式可以把他強制的把他帶回來所以我們認為說氣保潛逃這個也是一個很重要必須要規範的我們以祝國榮的案子為例好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2409.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2432.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
他匯了幾十億的案子到海外那你5億的保證金對他來說是可以承受的損失這個成本是他可以支出的所以他當然會放棄那5億的保證金而不回來所以這些也是我們必須要給檢警調給我們的司法正義的彰顯我們要有一定的法律上面的效果給他那最後我還是希望一件事情說既然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2434.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2462.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
妨害司法公認罪在行政院已經躺了五年了那我想我們立法院的各位立法委員不分黨派應該也是很希望趕快把這個法案推過去因為對於這個棄保潛逃或者是對於司法官的關說我想這個是大家都不能夠接受不能允許的我想這是基本人的嘗試所以司法是正義的最後一道防線那我們除了讓第一線的司法人員在面對那些罪犯之外我們這些立法者也應該在 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2464.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2486.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
當作這些司法人員的後盾我們立出一些有效的法律讓司法人員能夠面對第一線的犯罪好 謝謝各位好 謝謝那接下來我們請羅委員要做提案說明提案說明 季寶請 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2521.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2524.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
民進黨你們在縱放林秉文嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2525.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2551.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
民進黨你們在縱放陳啟玉嗎民進黨你們在縱放所有的綠色權貴嗎今天我們討論的兩個重點的法案都攸關司法的公信跟公正其中棄跑潛逃罪是蔡英文執政的時候司法國事會議2017年的決議結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2555.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2576.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
到現在 行政院怠惰 到現在為止 連個版本都沒有八年過去 擺爛到這種程度 原因是什麼講白了 我認為就是有政治動機啊綠色權貴 氣保潛逃 比比皆是 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2578.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2589.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
梁文傑還可以跟林秉文嗨歌喝酒然後呢結交到我們的綠色的綠友友跟權貴掛鉤之後判個交保就棄保潛逃啦就沒事啦大事化小 小事化無啦這難道是今天我們面對棄保潛逃重犯我們的態度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2609.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2637.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
柯文哲七千萬交保不夠要把他抓起來 關起來因為怕他棄保潛逃鄭文燦就不用怕鄭文燦就不用怕所以鄭文燦就可以交保今天為什麼我們在這邊會要立下棄保潛逃罪也是在幫行政院 在幫法務部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2639.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2654.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
不要再讓大家覺得司法雙標了吧遇到綠的就放遇到綠油油就放不是綠的不是綠油油就關就壓就抓有罪當然要關啦勿枉勿重是司法的精神啦但是無罪推定偵查不公開都不要忘了啦所以今天在這邊行政院不做我們做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2670.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2692.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
行政院不做我們做啊你們今天這麼不爽蔡英文蔡英文的司法國事會議的結論你們不爽啊你們不理她啊你把她當塑膠啊丟在旁邊啊那我們來做嘛第二個也是 也是司法國事會議的結論啊妨害司法公正罪 我跟全國人民說 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2694.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2721.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
台灣的司法就是有權判生無權判死啦以前叫有權判生無權判死現在就是有權判生無權判死在我們中華民國在台灣官說司法是無罪的請問所有的我們的民眾大家好好想一想你認識法官嗎你認識檢察官嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2722.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2748.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你認識鄭明謙法務部長嗎你認識誰你有可能關說司法嗎你是柯建民嗎你有本事透過國會的議長去關說法務部部長然後讓他的刑案免訴免罪判決確定嗎你是柯建民嗎你沒這個本事所有的平民老百姓沒這個本事 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2749.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2767.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
只有權貴有這個本事 包含這個權貴我講的還不是綠色的是所有權貴有這個本事當然民進黨為之遊烈啦民進黨出了一個柯建民會關說司法還出了一個陸委會主委 前法務部長邱泰山也會關說司法所以我要告訴大家司法的公信 歷史民調七成八成對司法沒有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2778.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2795.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
不是沒有原因的不是沒有原因的我再講一次不是沒有原因的過去這麼多年該改變的法制通通不動為了維護權貴甚至特別是綠色權貴該修的法都不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2800.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2809.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
不動棄保潛逃罪 方便陳啟玉 方便林秉文 方便綠色權貴 可以棄保潛逃不定關說司法罪 方便柯建民 方便邱泰山 可以關說司法這個法案跟藍綠無關啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2822.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2829.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
司法公信力要不要再重新挽回 拜託大家今天讓這兩個法案通過 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2834.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2854.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
本日會議委員提案說明部分告一個段落本日會議定由法務部、內政部、移民署、警政署再提出書面報告相關書面報告列入公報記錄我先請問一下機關這邊有沒有要發表口頭報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2860.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2870.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
不是他們沒有 主席 我覺得因為今天另外有四個版本 包括召委的版本那其實因為我們上次已經有詢答過 那我就覺得增加了這新的版本 其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2871.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2889.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那個主管機關應該有義務啊要接受詢答所以我來請求說主席剛剛在那個議程的詢問的時候我想說先讓提案說明進行完就要提出說是我今日啊我們仍然要就新併案的這些法案的內容我們可以就這些內容來跟主管機關進行詢答好 謝謝鐘召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2891.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2902.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那這樣喔,因為我們今天有一些新的那個內容出來嘛那包括我自己也有提修這個東西,那是不是請法務部這邊能夠就這個部分發表一下意見,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2908.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2922.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先進那今天奉邀列席代表本部來報告那委員提案修法的方向是與本部的立場是相同的都是為了維護司法公信力並呼應司法國事會的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2923.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2940.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那本部是競表支持那委員共提出有七案的一個審查其中四案已經在去年7月11號審查完畢那請就新政三案來表示法治面的一個意見那首先有關林思敏委員版本的部分那草案第161條第一項同時是規範的脫逃及棄保潛逃行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2946.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2961.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
兩者同時妨礙了司法的公正性但Total罪更涉及對國家拘禁作用的一個迫害不法性是更高的是否適合將兩者同樣設定為相同的刑度那這邊我們是建立在斟酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2962.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2977.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
另外在干擾證人、作證罪部分,草案列舉了騷擾、強暴、恐嚇、監控或脅迫但如果用傷害方式就不適用了恐怕有怪落萬的疑慮不法關說罪的部分,由於法官、檢察官職權還包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2978.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2997.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
審核強制處分實行公訴等那建立斟酌是否一併納入處罰的一個範圍第二有關羅志強委員的版本部分委員徵令364條處罰面向相當的一個全面然而構成要件是刑法第一次使用舉發 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2998.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3023.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
在立法上似乎特別排除舉報行為的適用另外不正當的經濟干預之具體內涵也有待確認建議需要釐清這些定義及適用範圍以避免適用法律上的一個疑義那此外個案若遭以私刑拘禁或傷害方式來妨礙作證現行法最高可處五年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3024.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3053.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
但適用草案第二項刑律反而是二年以下也請斟酌是否有制定的一個實意呢那第三有關於吳宗憲委員的版本部分呢那委員版本新增處罰行賄證人的行為與本部草案立法處罰方向是一致的然而從維護司法公正的立法目的觀察對證人的要求企業收受賄賂或不正利益的話是否也應予以處罰這部分請通盤考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3054.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3073.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
最後不法關說罪部分實務上如果發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官來關說是否亦應予處罰也請一併斟酌考量以周全保護司法連結及符合的期待以上報告請委主席及各位委員指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3078.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3101.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
主席 各位委員先進我們今天的列席機關 法務部因為我們看到目前原來在上次的詢答的時候應該是包含了台灣民眾黨黨團還有羅志強委員這三個版本今天好像是新增了謝依鳳委員 林思敏委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3102.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3117.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
還有盧偉委員有新的版本,還有昭緯本身有新的版本那這當中大家不斷的在重複的提到的就是這個氣保潛逃,那其實在這個條文當中我們看到了這些版本當中有些共同的,也有一些不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3118.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3139.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那麼關於脫逃罪的部分的確有四個版本都有提到這個脫逃罪但是相對的包括了妨礙作證罪的部分大概都是後面的三個版本提出來爭列的雖然民眾黨黨團也有提出妨礙作證罪那另外對於司法關說罪的部分大概也是鑒於後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3140.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3154.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
今天所進入的這三個新的版本那這個部分本市覺得說貴於法務部對於這增加的包括剛剛所說到的妨礙司法公正的司法關說以及妨礙作證那這個部分剛剛的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3158.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3174.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
法務部的說明是比較簡單希望待會主席能夠多一些時間讓我們有充分的時間了解主管機關對於今天送進來這三個版本這三項我再重複一次妨礙司法公正就是司法官說然後妨礙作證 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3177.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3202.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那麼在脫逃罪的部分呢其實它跟棄保潛逃是有點區隔啦那但是呢另外我們也非常關心的就是一滅證據因為在目前啊大家所看到的一些重大的社會矚目案件其實呢固然之前有對於棄保潛逃或者說脫逃因為叫做通緝那目前通緝的部分那怎麼去設定那另外呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3203.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3222.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
隱滅證據的部分這也是目前我們司法案件當中被社會所矚目的因為只要有潛在證人在那麼這樣的隱滅證據是否透過了部分的交保的人他不只是棄保潛逃的問題嚴重而且因為他在拒保期間他人在外面對於其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3223.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3240.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
既有的被告或其他的證人或潛在證人他們進行的這個隱滅證據或串證的行為在相關的法則上呢事務法務部呢也應該有一個明確的立場以上呢是希望主席能夠讓今天的三個版本讓主管機關能夠多做說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3241.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3262.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好 謝謝那這樣就是因為我們那個中招委有特別提到說要請法務部就各個委員所提出來新的版本的部分能夠加以說明那是一些細節的部分那所以說我想法務部這邊是不是能夠由部長或次長這邊能夠就這次的各委員所提出來的部分加以說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3278.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3283.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
謝謝我想我們這就比較詳細的一個說明以林思敏委員這個年紀的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3286.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3314.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
刑法的部分的修正查案他主要的重點是在刑法161條第一項跟第二項普通脫逃罪及強制脅迫脫逃的一個刑度那這部分在第一項他增訂了新訂了棄保潛逃的構成要件並增訂了第十章之一的妨礙司法公正罪章及賄賂證人妨礙作證部法官說等妨礙司法公正的一個一個處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3315.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3342.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
但是在法務部的看法是這樣草案第161條第一項有提高現行偷逃罪的一個刑度跟本部提案的一個草案方向是一樣的但是我們現在現行的161條偷逃罪它是對國家拘禁作用的破壞及妨害司法公正行為草案第一項它新增是經命拒保責護限制駐居 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3343.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3370.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
限制出境或限制出海之逃亡殘疾行為這個是屬於妨害司法公正並沒有破壞國家拘禁的一個作用兩者現在的法律其實是不一樣的那所現在的法律的佈法的程度也有高低的差別那是不是都是要處同樣處一年以上七年以下的這個有期徒刑那這個有涉及罪責相當比例延遲我們這邊認為是還是要通盤做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3372.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3399.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
一個考量我這個就詳細的做一個說明那另外林市民委員他的草案第161條第二項處罰損害拘禁處所借據及強暴脅迫偷逃行為涉及對拘禁處所借據的物理上破壞或強制行為那這部分這個侵略法案顯然比現行法第一項的偷逃罪為高那草案設定兩者的刑律相同是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3400.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3421.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
符合罪責原則,必願者見證證罪,就是說他第一項第二項都是用一年以上七年以下的一個罪責我們認為這部分司委在做一個證訟,這個是比較詳細的一個說明那另外妨礙司法公證罪部分,林思敏委員她的辦案是172條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3423.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3450.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那這部分就科以刑者的規範跟兩罪的一個刑度都是一年以上七年以下那這部分是否合乎罪責相當原則我們是可以再斟酌那另外對應的一個極拘罰金的極拘都是一百萬以下是否合乎刑法各罪間的自由刑罰金的衡平這部分我們認為可以再做一個討論這個再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3454.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3479.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
那這部分還有那個172條之二所類的一個犯罪的一個手段它是採類舉的一個方式包括騷擾、強暴、恐嚇、監控或脅迫證人鑑定專家證人、同意或其配偶、分約者、直系血親等等甚至還有生活上有利害關係人違憲才能成立本條犯罪能妨害證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3481.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3498.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
妨礙作證鑑定或傳遞的手段是很多種的不限於上開的五種的類舉那如果說個案以傷害的方式那就沒有本條適用的這個餘地那是不是有改採概括加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3499.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3521.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
其一行就是二分之一或者等立法的一個模式那我們是可以另外再做一個考量那另外172條之三將不法關說的可以行者這部分那個草案的刑罪是一上七下那是否合乎罪行相當原則我們認為是可以再做一個一個一個斟酌考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3522.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3539.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那另外對應的罰金的一個積聚一百萬這部分也是見請在座那另外法官的職權包括審核強制處分檢查職權包括實審公訴包括含上訴抗告與否撤回上訴抗告與否那上開程序是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3540.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3562.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
一併納入不法關說的處罰範圍我們認為是可以再做一個擴大可以再做一個擴大那實務上發生對懲罰法官檢察官的長官關說的一個情形那這部分我們是認為這部分是林士明委員的長版本是沒有這部分我們是認為是否可以考慮來加以處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3564.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3590.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這才能夠合乎那個人民的一個期待保障周全保護司法的一個連結那另外172條知事部分除了草案所列舉法官為一定裁判檢查為一定處分之外法官的職權也包括審的強制處分檢查職權包括實行公訴那這部分草案的刑度呢是一上七下那這個集軍的一個罰金的一個級距因為100萬以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3594.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3614.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那這部分這個自由行跟罰金行的這部分的一個橫評這邊我們見請在座那另外我們那個羅志強委員的一個草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3615.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3636.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那這部分我們也是在一個30644條的刑度是兩年以下那這部分跟恐惡罪的刑度是相同的那但是卻比302條第一項私刑拘禁罪五年以下有期徒刑304條第一項的強制罪的三年以下徒刑為低那這部分是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3642.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3660.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
如果是這樣如果說以這個草案是兩年的話是否有有再制定草案的一個實役呢我們是見請在座那另外範例是不是可以改為一個傳理合乎訴訟法的一個用詞那另外這部分用舉發的一個行為那這個舉發跟舉報 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3662.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3681.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
是不一樣的那是不是現行刑法並沒有舉發的用語是否在建立在說明欄序名釐清以避免發生後續跟偵審機關適用法律上的一個疑義以上我就做一個簡單的做一個補充那剩下是不是就大體討論的時候我們再詳細的 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3687.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3706.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
主席謝謝我們那個部長的說明或許其他的部分次長也可以補充因為我們剛剛看到其實我們看到我們委員會所做的這個法條會整變當中我們看到大概主要版本都是增加了就是對於脫逃罪有人是在161條直接去改 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3706.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3733.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
也有人呢把它用增列條文的方式那目前呢剛剛提到的呢就是妨礙作證罪那妨礙作證罪目前各個版本當中有放在用172條之一也有用364條去處理但是呢我們也看到了呢甚至後面的也有包括民進黨團版本還有之三我想呢這樣的一個新增的方式那麼這樣修訂的方式那其實呢剛剛邱剛剛部長所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3736.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3745.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
其實妨礙作證罪其實這個我們認為這是目前現存非常嚴重的一個事情那妨礙作證罪跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3745.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3770.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
殷滅證據罪目前定在刑法165條中的殷滅證據罪那目前的各版本都沒有對本條進行修訂可是事實上的殷滅證據罪跟我們各版本當中所提到的妨礙作證罪它其實都是跟我們所說的拒保不拒保考量當中為了保障後續的司法審判是公平公正譬如說我們為什麼有 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3773.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3795.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
被告他現在不予交保就是防止他串證那這個串證不但會發生在一滅證據165條的一滅證據上也會發生事實上就算是被告他並沒有交保但是事實上妨礙作證罪也可能在審理的期間由其他人來進行影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3799.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3821.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
所以我們看到了有各個版本當中對妨礙作證罪進行的規範但是卻沒有看到對於隱滅證據罪這也是很明顯的在刑事訴訟當中審理期間可能大家都非常關心的那舉例來講目前大家所關注的這個金華城案那麼其實目前被通緝中的應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3824.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3844.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
大家算是被告還是證人我是不清楚啦我知道他被通緝通緝因為傳喚未到嘛那應該算是被告了那麼他一知不曉得人在哪裡那他的通訊方式他所持的通訊軟體目前呢也無法掌握那這種情況之下如何防止這種這個尚未在到案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3845.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3863.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
被告他去做一滅證據那麼未來他有這樣的行為未來在他面對司法審判的時候會不會有相關的加重的處罰就像我們現在談脫逃罪談氣泡潛逃氣泡潛逃本身對於被告本身上次的詢問當中就有人關心到過去的氣泡潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3865.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3891.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
為什麼在要不要剋罪的部分 剋刑的部分呢 有一些討論有人認為說有重複剋刑的問題但是呢 現在情況下大家關心的是棄保檢討已經造成我們相關司法案件審理的不公正那隨著妨礙司法公正 大家的意識上越來越覺得應該防治那是否呢 法務部在對於我們剛剛各版本當中有提到的妨礙作證罪以及呢 並沒有條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3893.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3914 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
沒有版本觸及到的一滅證據的165條的關聯性如何能不能進行一個闡述因為呢這涉及到我們委員會在後續為了妨礙司法公正有沒有要專章還是要依各個版本的方式來做逐條的修訂或新增這都有相關的關聯是不是能請法務部呢再請主席讓法務部再進行說明謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3914.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3919.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我第一次發言首先今天主席排審的這個議案我個人是認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3939.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3949.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
這個當然主席早日康復這個身體為樣這個是大家給予您祝福但是我認為在司法法治委員會到目前為止今天審這個議案當然可以討論過去行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3954.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3975.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
也針對相關的議案相關的主張進行研議當中沒有人反對要針對防賴司法公正或者是增加棄保潛逃的刑度刑責等等我想這個方向上都可以討論但現在是說這個我對於主席有一點小小的不解我們司法法治委員會是所有八個委員會裡頭審查進度預算的進度最尾班 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3981.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3985.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
所以我們對於法務部的預算是完全沒有進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3987.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3993.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
預算的審查我們事實上是八個委員會裡頭審查預算進度最後的一個那我原本以為這個我們朝委身體康復之後會優先來針對這個會期預算會期要進行的法務部的預算趕快先行來審查這是我的認知跟期待我也認為這應當先把我們該寫的功課寫好 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4012.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4014.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
交出來我認為應當是這樣所以對於今天的排案來直接處理這一個版本我是有一點這個在排案上的一些不解那第二個呢我也認為這麼重要的一個議案妨礙司法公正罪除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4032.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4054.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
目前的七個版本多數的委員針對棄保潛逃恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪司法關說罪等等都有相關的議案提出來不管是原始我們當初詢答的四個案子七月間大家討論的四個案子或是今天在有林思敏吳宗憲跟羅志強的另外一案好現在是七案 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4055.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4082.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
但事实上我相信刚刚嘉宾委员花了很多时间在针对第165条166条的页面证据罪的部分它应当是一个完整的配套甚至172之4诉讼外目的的使用证据罪也应当是含括在这一整个完整的讨论当中它会更宏观更全面那所以说现在要讨论这个版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4083.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4104.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
就由委員的版本先行處理我認為在版本上是掛一漏萬的我也認為是比較欠缺一個宏觀的思維那我們如果要真的來針對妨礙司法公正傷害司法獨立更應當擴大打擊的層面那也更應當有多元的思考納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4106.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4126.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
所以我一直主張從我7月質詢的時候要求行政部門我也知道法務部是有在研議行政院的版本當中我一直再一次在這裡提出呼籲也請主席要來參採我認為這個重要的議案要有行政院的版本在一併的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4127.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4146.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
否則我剛剛說的嘉賓講的湮滅證據罪還有172之4訴訟外目的的使用證據罪怎麼規範怎麼處理這個可能行政部門有更完整的思維那當然另外我覺得妨礙司法的獨立妨礙司法的公正啊我是真的覺得很怪誕啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4147.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4175.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
立法委員或者是立法院的黨團帶著人民去衝北檢去包圍北院這是不是妨礙司法公正這是不是要企圖用政治的壓力去干擾影響辦案啊又或是我們看到所謂的這個活動是不是更要大規模的來鬥臭司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4176.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4200.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
這是不是也是我們要非常嚴肅的去思考到的這是不是一個我們除了好我講條文對於172之4條現在呢民眾黨的版本呢就針對納入法官檢察官然後是不法官說者那我想問立法委員的請託施壓是不是妨礙司法公正啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4202.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4224.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我們在這個當下在審議這個我根本我從頭到尾都一直在說這個會期立法院的司法法治委員會是最過當的用政治力去干預司法個案的一個階級法案可以討論但是要真的能夠做到一個公正摒除政治力 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4225.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4249.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那我再次主張司法法治委員會先把我們該做的功課做好我認為省預算我們都是現在各個委員會在等我們要進入的朝野協商就因為司法法治委員會還沒有送出法務部的預算所以現在各個黨團下午就要協商了沒有辦法針對總預算進行協商我們已經把時間壓縮的非常緊迫了甚至今天有媒體報導 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4251.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4278.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
有媒體上已經預測如果各委員會還沒有完成預算的審議那這個會期是不是沒有辦法完成總預算的審議我想這個是攸關國家建設全民福祉非常重要的那第二個回到今天的排案我認為要有行政院的版本一併來參採這才不會掛一漏萬也才不會急救張 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4279.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4289.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
那第三個對於司法公正的妨礙我想提案的委員我們大家都應當要能夠非常清楚的任何人都不應當去影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4290.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4311.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
介入、干預、施壓、鬥臭司法這才是立法委員該做的事你們現在在講這都是大力討論的部分我們現在進行的是提案說明以及機關報告我想各位都這麼資深的立委一定很清楚現在的狀況黃委員先等一下我先跟委員會報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4312.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4336.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
還有跟那個吳委員報告一下就是說第一個為什麼我們沒有等行政院的版本是因為行政院在108年就已經拿到法務部的版本但已經拖了5年了都沒有送出來所以我們也沒有再有所期待那第二個有關法務部的預算我們已經排在本週四就要審並不是說我們不審查所以我們禮拜四就要審查這個部分我想可以請各位去看一下我排的議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4337.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4355.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那既然108年行政院到現在都沒有送出來那我覺得再等下去可能又是再一個5年了所以不管在催促者保護法或是有關司法正義這一塊那我覺得我們就積極的來處理黃委員是不是說我們大家大體討論的東西我們都留在大體討論好嗎請黃委員現在是不是要進入大體討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4366.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4391.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
所以我剛剛有跟各位報告一下我們現在進行的部分是提案說明及機關報告主席不好意思我請教一下如果是提案說明跟報告那都講完了啊提案也說明了機關也報告了那這個程序是不是應該往下走進入大體討論因為那個我跟主席報告對主席在議事上面的主持我百分之一百的尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4392.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4410.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那提案說明跟報告明顯的就已經結束了那我們是不是應該要進入大體討論主席宣布大體討論完了以後等一下要大體討論要說那大家再來討論這個都沒有問題那只是說現在停在提案說明與 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4411.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4426.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
提案說明與報告那有的時候各個委員各有立場那各有想法我覺得這都正常那我們是不是就進入大體討論來討論那要不然一直留在提案說明與報告這樣我覺得很怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4426.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4451.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
那還是說要繼續留在這個階段大家繼續講下去我也OK我完全都尊重主席那剛剛我已經有舉手了那接下來就請主席採釋像好就是說因為莊委員剛剛有舉手那我再一次說明我已經說了第三次了我們現在進行的是提案說明及機關報告那各位如果有要希望大體討論的我們待會到大體討論程序的時候再能夠讓各位能暢所欲言好那莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4454.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4461.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
謝謝張偉 其實大體討論跟主條那本來是必經的一個程序剛剛黃國昌委員的一個發言我比較認為是屬於會議詢問所以我剛剛也舉手了但我都覺得審這個法案OK我這一部法案到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4473.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4487.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
讓我非常困惑的一個地方就是說我很想去支持可是呢我的發言似乎看起來又反對因為這些條文把我搞得我到現在就把我混淆到整個我對於法律的一個價值的一個判斷我現在一下要談的 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4489.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4515.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我覺得比較可惜的就是說前面每一位委員有提出他的一個高見就像譬如說一部法令裡面我上次就提過幾個考慮思考的一個方向今天法務部提到的就是說有幾個條文裡面不符合罪責的一個原理是啊我當初也是這樣想啊你說這一部法令裡面你說90年沒有去修掉你一下子把它增加三倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4516.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4535.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
要有一個說明不是不能贊成但要有一個說明那比如說今天很多法案裡面所提出來我上次所提過的大家都各言我自而已啊你今天談到的罪責不符合罪責原理那你沒有實際上的去講說你法務部真正的認為是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4536.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4565.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
今天這一檔我是認為有一點點錯亂我請大家仔細去做一個思考你像比如說你161條之一台灣民眾黨的你在講的聚寶折戶限制跟限制住居跟限制出境出海的一個被告裡面合法傳喚不到庭庭我如果去通緝的話三年以下有嫉妒刑我這不是在進入主條我是認為這個是很明顯的非常粗糙我很少講這種話為什麼說他非常粗糙的原因就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4567.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4587.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
如果說我今天脫勞罪是三年以下我在公權力的掌控之下我就跑掉了三年以下那已經非公權力掌控之下的你也三年以下這罪者不均我提出來大家要談比較大的一個概念的部分我就認為這一條161-1跟新增的161-1你把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4593.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4610.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
配合著161條脫逃罪你把它提高三倍這樣的一個罪責不通我認為不通那另外第二個就是說我更認為你一個拒保的人一個責負的人為什麼會拒保因為譬如說你羈押羈押完以後你說不管是一千萬兩千萬三千萬或者說一億 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4614.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4624.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那你把他拒保出去了可能你認為說這個可能沒有串證之餘我要保全被告 我有電子假容就夠了如果是這樣子的話那我如果今天是一個責負的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4626.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4647.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我責負你就是認為我應該是應該是比較沒有什麼這個人請黃國昌帶回去他在黨主席的帶回去你給我負責這樣你也三年以下這我就認為好奇怪那罪責不符合那你的罪到最後你的構成要件是講說你經合法傳喚沒有正當理由不到庭並發布通緝責那才三年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4648.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4676.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
如果說這個案子我假檢察官跟疑檢察官每一個人看法會有所不同他會認為我就責負而已啊或者是我已經給他陷入自居了就這麼輕的一個罪這麼輕的一個罪只因為他一個庭 兩個庭 三個庭沒有來也不知道什麼原因現在傳喚不到我就給你發布通緝有沒有去成就他到底要不要犯罪是後面的發布通緝如果有的話就變成三年我覺得這很可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4677.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4685.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我覺得這種立法 台灣民眾黨這種立法 還有國民黨很多提出類似的立法太可怕你們是在野黨欸 你們有沒有搞錯這種反而 因為台灣政黨會來來去去欸這種都是 應該是執政黨去提出來的法案這是可怕的法案 反而是在野黨提出來的法案這個我就比較不能認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4702.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4729.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我是比較不能認同我講這些都沒有黨派我就說這些從頭到尾這部法令在審的時候我都一直在示警一直在警告我們要尊重司法沒有錯啊可是你賦予他這個中間的一個手段我們尊重司法是不是應該是後面那個決定去尊重他還是前面這一些偵查或者這一些給當 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4732.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4751.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
擁有公權力的人更大的一個手段所以我是一直在思考這樣到底好還是不好請大家再散示一下這一些比較比較大家我會覺得比較前提性的問題大家先釐清一下 昭偉也學法 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4753.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4772.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那個王總召也學法,翁曉琳委員也都是學友專精那這一些有點顛覆啦,有點顛覆我我從過去的學法到現在到現在的一個沒有人有辦法跟我說明的地方,像譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4774.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4803.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
證人有比較大法官的真的比較大嘛你說證人鑑定人 通譯那個部分你就跟法官的好像是行者又弄得不一樣這個都都很奇怪沒有辦法去做一個說明啦尤其是證據污染的部分這個我等一下再來說是不是啊 避其功於一役喔把它弄清楚學者專家的再弄一次這件沒有公聽嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4804.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4825.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們真的要把幾十年沒有動過的或者是我們顛覆了我們的法律人的基本價值的東西再去做釐清像譬如說 趙偉告訴來論之罪的老婆去打個老公或者老公去打個老婆打完了 負氣了一方提出告訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4826.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4854.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那這一些不管哪怕你起訴到審判階段你還是可以撤回的啊那只因為我前面你給我傳聞我不來三年以下比原來的本刑本罪還要重這些都對我的觀念都產生很大很大的衝突我們從這個案子在審的時候大家都各言而治而已啊都沒有辦法互相說服彼此啦那畢竟這是幾十年來的一個大變革啦所以我是覺得說再善施再考慮一下以上那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4860.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4878.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
主席謝謝給我這個發言的結論因為算是一種會議的說明跟詢問因為事實上剛剛一開始本席提出來也是尊重主席的議事的裁量那我是說因為我們上次的詢答是在7月11號對於前面三個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4879.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4894.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
的內容進行詢答所以剛剛我一開始跟主席請求的就是說因為今天又增加了四個版本那本來呢剛剛也有提案委員做了說明了也有機關做了報告了那本來是希望說是否今天就後續新增的版本有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4896.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4911.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
進行詢答的程序我的原因是這樣子啦當然這個體力上應該怎麼安排我們尊重主席因為畢竟過去也有這樣的做法就是說有這個病案審查的時候新增的案子我們會再安排部會的詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4913.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4938.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那再進行後續的廣泛討論跟逐條討論那當然也會有併案審查的過程當中就直接從廣泛討論到這個逐條討論去進行我只是說明避免會誤解我剛剛請求的是這個意思並不是說我對於今天的廣泛討論或逐條討論呢有意見而是說因為有新增版本可否容許讓機關的巡打這個部分可以有所安排以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4941.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4956.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
剛剛機關也有說明我們現在提案說明跟機關報告就進行完畢我們現在進行討論事項繼續並審查台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚的中華民國刑法部分修正條文等其案進入議程討論事項前我們會先請議事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4960.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4973.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
先宣讀所有的條文如果有修正動議就請趕快交到主席台並宣讀宣讀的時間我們預估是12分鐘待會再宣讀這12分鐘裡面如果各位委員對機關還有什麼問題要溝通的在這12分鐘請機關跟委員就盡量溝通我們現在就開始宣讀條文請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4990.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5007.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
討論四項中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第161條除第一項第二句條文中處一年以下修正為處三年以下第二項第二句條文中處五年以下修正為處一年以上七年以下另第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5009.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5033.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
前三項之未碎犯後增訂逗號外其餘未修正委員羅志強等27人提案第161條除第一項修正為依法逮捕拘禁之人脫逃者處三年以下有期徒刑被告受拒保折付限制住區限制出境或限制出海而經合法傳喚無正當理由不到場經發布通緝者易通 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5034.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5056.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
第二項手續中前項後增訂前段二字第三項手續中第一項後增訂前段二字另增訂第五項為逃逆被告涉犯最輕本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪而犯第一項之罪者得加重其刑至二分之一其餘未修正委員謝一鳳等提案第161條對趙偉羅志強等27人提案除第四項 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5062.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5092.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
前三項諸位碎犯後增訂逗號外其餘同委員羅志強等27人提案委員林思明等提案第161條處第一項修正為依法逮捕拘禁之脫逃者或經命拒保責付限制住居限制出境或限制出海之逃亡藏匿者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑另第二項第二具條文中處五年以下修正為處一年以上七年以下其餘未修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5092.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5092.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
谢谢大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5094.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5123.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
台湾民众党党团提案第161条之一经检察官或法官命拒保则附限制住居或限制出境出海之被告经合法传唤无证当理由不到庭并经发布通缉者处三年以下有期徒刑违反刑事诉讼法第166条之二锁定应遵守之事项经制止人在违反者处三年以下有期徒刑拘役或三十万元以下罚金被告经有罪判决确定 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5123.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5151.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
取宣告刑或锁定之执行刑在五年有期徒刑以上而犯前二项之罪者加重其刑之二分之一韦红孟凯等提案第163条之一被告受拒保折付限制住居限制出境或限制出海而有下列情形之一者处五年以下有期徒刑得并科一百万元以下罚金一经合法传唤无证当理由不到场经发布通缉二逃亡或偿逆经发布通缉 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5152.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5174.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
被告違反法院許可停止羈押時所命應遵守之事項者處三年以下有歧途行得併科三十萬元以下罰金被告涉犯最新本刑三年以上有歧途行之罪而犯前二項之罪者加重其刑至二分之一犯第一項或第二項之罪而有下列情形之一者不罰依本案為法官本案為法院認為因 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5176.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5194.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
拘役罰金或因欲知免刑或無罪這條案件二本案為檢察官為不起訴或還起訴處分這案件文宏孟楷等提案第163條之二犯前條之罪而自首或自動到案者檢清或免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5196.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5213.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十章之一章名防害司法公正罪委員羅志強等二十九人提案第三十七章章名防害司法公正罪委員林思明等及委員吳宗憲等提案第十章之一章名均為防害司法公正罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5216.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5237.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
台湾民众党党团提案第172条之一对于证人鉴定人同意行求契约或交付不正利益而约其不为证言鉴定或翻译或约其为一定之证言鉴定或翻译者处验以上7年以下有期徒刑得并可100万元以下罚金文罗志祥等提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5238.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5258.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
文羅志強等二十九人提案第364條意圖妨礙作證鑑定或翻譯就自己或他人之案件對證人鑑定人同意或與前述有密切利害關係之人實施騷擾、強暴、脅迫、恐嚇、監控要計或其他違反本人意願方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5259.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5274.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
知犯罪行為者處二年以下由其徒刑拘獄獲五新台幣五萬元以下罰金意圖妨害舉發救自己或他人這案件對舉發義務人或與其有密切利害關係之人實施騷擾強暴脅迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5279.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5290.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
恐嚇監控藥劑或其他違反本人意願方法之犯罪行為者一同意圖妨害司法調查偵查審判或執行就自己或他人質案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5292.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5312.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
對該管公務員或與其有密切替代關係之人騷擾強暴脅迫恐嚇監控要計或其他違反本人意願方法之犯罪行為者一同處三年以下有期徒刑拘役或新台幣五萬元以下罰金意圖妨礙作證鑑定或翻譯就自己或他人之案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5312.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5327.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
对证人坚定人通议或与签诉有密切利害关系之人行求契约或交付贿赂或其他不正利益或为不正当之经济干预者处六个月以上五年以下有期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5329.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5353.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
並科新台幣300萬元以下罰金意圖妨害舉發對舉發義務人或與其有密切利害關係之人行求契約或交付、賄賂或其他不正利益或為不正當之經濟干預者一同意圖妨害司法調查、偵查、審判或執行就自己或他人之案件對該管公務員證人、鑑定人通異 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5355.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5369.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
举发医务人或与其有密切利害关系之人施以诈诉请托官说或其他不当方法处六个月以上三年以下有歧途刑并科薪台币一百万元以下罚金 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5371.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5390.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
為林思敏等提案第172條之一,刑求其約交付賄賂或其他不正利益與證人、鑑定人、專家、證人同意,而約其不為證言、鑑定或傳譯,或約其為一定之證言、鑑定或傳譯者,處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑。 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5391.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5420.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
得并科三十万元以上一百万元以下罚金委乎中线等提案第172条之一意图使证人鉴定人通议不为证言鉴定或翻译或使其为一定之证言鉴定或通议而行求契约或交付不正利益者处三年以下有期徒刑得并科五十万元以下罚金意图使举发诱人不为举发而行求契约或交付不正利益者一同 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5422.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5450.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
台湾民众党党团提案第172条之二意图使证人鉴定人同意不为证言鉴定或翻译或使其为一定之证言鉴定或翻译骚扰其本人或其之配偶磁系血亲三亲等内旁系血亲二亲等内姻亲或家长家属与其定有婚约者或其他身份上或生活上有密切利害关系之人者处三年以下有歧途行得病科三十万元以下罚金 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5451.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5475.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
為零四名等敵人第172條之二騷擾、強暴、脅迫、監控或脅迫證人、鑑定人、專家證人、同意或其配偶、婚約者直系血親、三親等內、旁系血親、二親等內、姻親或家長家屬或生活上有利害關係之人以使其不為證言鑑定或傳譯或使其為一定之證言鑑定或傳譯者 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5476.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5485.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
处一年以上七年以下有期徒行得病科50万元以上300万元以下发金台湾民众党党团提案第172条之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5488.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5512.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
意圖使證人鑑定人通譯不為證言鑑定或翻譯或使其為一定之證言鑑定或翻譯對其本人或其之配偶直系血親三親等內旁系血親二親等內姻親或家長家屬與其定有婚約者或其他身份上或生活上有密切利害關係之人 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5512.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5540.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
实行前条以外是犯罪行为者依其所犯之罪加重其刑之二分之一台湾民众党党团提案第172条之四意图使法官为一定制裁判或使检察官为一定制处分在司法案件侦查审判或执行中于法定程序外对法官或检察官为不不法官说者处一年以上七年以下有期徒行得病科一百万元以下罚金文林四名等提案第172条之三意图 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5542.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5558.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
指法官或檢察官為一定之裁判或處分在司法案件偵查審判或執行中對法官或檢察官或其職務關係人以不正方法行官說或請託者處一年以上七年以下有歧途刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5558.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5582.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
得并科30万元以上100万元以下罚金文由中宪等提案第172条之二意图使法官检察官不为一定之裁判或处分或为一定之裁判或处分在司法案件侦查审判或执行中对法官或检察官为不法官说者处五年以下有期徒刑得并科100万元以下罚金 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5584.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5609.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
台湾民众党党团提案第172条之五意图使法官为一定之裁判或使检察官为一定之处分在司法案件侦查审判或执行中对其本人或其之配偶子姓血亲三亲等类旁系血亲二亲等类姻亲或家长家属与其定有婚约者或其他身份上或生活上有密切利害关系之人 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5609.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5637.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
实行犯罪行为者依其所犯之罪加重其刑之二分之一文林四名等提案第172条之四意图使法官或检察官为一定制裁判或处分在司法案件侦查审判或执行中对其本人或其配偶婚约者直系血亲三亲等类旁系血亲二亲等类姻亲或家长家属或生活上有利害关系之人实行犯罪行为者处一年 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5637.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5661.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
以上7年以下有期復刑 得病科30萬元以上100萬元以下罰金繼續修正動議部分修正動議一對照委員中線等19人提案第172條之二第一項條文中對法官或檢察官為不法官說者修正為對法官或檢察官或其監督長官為不法官說者 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5662.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5676.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
並增訂第二項為前向法官、檢察官因而不為或為一定制裁判或處分者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑得併科五百萬元以下罰金提案委員吳宗憲、聯署人黃國昌、吳曉琳等 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5678.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5693.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
修正動議二對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第172條之四修正為意圖使法官為一定或不為一定之裁判或處分或使檢察官為一定或不為一定之處分或足以影響裁判結果之職務上行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5693.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5706.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
在司法案件偵查、審判或執行中與法定程序外對法官、檢察官或其指揮監督長官為不法官說者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑得併科一百萬元以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5748.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5754.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
提案條文修正動議都已經宣讀完畢那我們現在進行討論事項那請問一下需不需要進行大體討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5756.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5782.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
好 需要的話那我們請在場委員在場委員現在表示需要進行大力討論那我們有鑑於就是前面委員發言很踴躍那我們為了讓發言有順序那我們請想要發言的委員到前面來登記然後每人發言三分鐘那我們第一輪發言完畢之後那如果有需要我們再進行第二輪再這樣以此類推好 謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5783.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5792.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
最好是第一輪發言完就結束了 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5841.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5860.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
好 謝謝 那我們現在請第一位 鍾嘉斌委員發言好 謝謝主席 這邊還是要表示一天遺憾因為設法制委員會 我們兩個不同政黨的召委輪流主持那事實上我們可以看得到 可以肯定的比較得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5861.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5875.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
包括上週因為現在的召委主席有個人因素那麼我們就對調臨時之間我們就排了稅審法稅審法將近30個條文是新修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5877.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5904.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
讓大家充分討論那也感謝我們委員會其他委員我們也好不容易大概有將近半的條文已經進入主條討論但是呢 仍然有將近半的條文呢我們可能還後續待審可是在審查期間呢我們都是充分發言連發言時間都沒有限制我真的誠懇的呼籲主席你要登記我OK啦但是發言時間可不可以盡量的讓我們能夠充分的討論因為底下的發言可能大家會知道一個修訂法 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5905.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5926.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
它可能會影響到很多不同層次的人民那我接下來就來說明一下像我們現在我們在討論的這161條這個脫逃罪那其實在實務上它不是只是針對因為我們立法一定有一個目標跟方向譬如說我們看到涉及社會矚目重大案件那麼有些被告那麼是 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5928.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5956.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
責負 交保但是呢他卻棄保潛逃所以剛剛我們對於脫逃罪都是用棄保潛逃來做說明但是呢我們有其他的情況是會不會因為我們要對這些重大案件責負或交保的被告我們要防止他脫逃或者刻意他的刑責而反而讓其他的輕罪或違罪的其他的相關人民呢受到損害譬如說我舉例齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5958.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5978.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那通緝好了 什麼時候會發布通緝通緝不見得我是刑案被告才發布通緝啊我們目前常常在處理的有什麼事情呢 就是交通事故交通事故 經常最近我們收到很多案件都是屬於什麼 叫做這個算是遺棄啦 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5980.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5998.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
肇事逃逸啦那肇事逃逸很多機車擦撞那麼雙方覺得沒什麼妨礙那一方呢就離開了但是可能另一方他覺得越想越不甘心他就報警然後呢在現場那警察到了或者說還要叫救護車救護車到了發現令肇呢不在現場那麼後續的做詢問筆錄的時候很可能這些先離開的肇事 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6008.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6023.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
對照人他就會變成是肇事逃逸那甚至這個肇事逃逸離開的人他也不曉得有可能已經構成肇事逃逸或者說他工作忙碌那警方要做筆錄的時候約不到他那後來呢以案子公問為險怎麼樣就移到 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6024.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6043.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們檢察官那裡那檢察官說這個屢傳不到啊那就發布通緝啊那通緝之後呢他就構成了我們後續修法的脫逃罪當中可能適用的對象那這種情況之下有可能後來輕微的交通事故可能兩兆也互相找到對方了那就和解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6044.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6060.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
和解之後他連交通事故這樣的一個連故意或過失傷害都沒有的情況之下是無罪的情況之下卻因為如果說遇到不同的檢察官都要發布通緝他卻要吃上脫逃罪的官司所以我們在說 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6061.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6083.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
法律的修改呢應該的確有我們要針對的目標那如果能夠針對要打擊的目標很清楚的把它定義出來那麼我們在法條的修訂上避免它傷及無辜在我們日常的生活當中很多民眾都因為我們立法院很急促的修法在修法通過之後才發現到生活大受影響像我剛剛說的所謂的造勢逃逸 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6087.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6102.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
肇事逃逸就是因為發生過一些重大的肇事逃逸案件是會矚目所以當時呢在交通委員會的時候就針對肇事逃逸的部分跟審法委員會就對他的刑責提高那提高之後呢我們就發現很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6104.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6127.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
私家車自小客然後跟機車碰撞或機車碰機車有些時候有些駕駛人他甚至連有碰撞到其他的機車或駕駛人他都不知道可是在後來的案件因為所謂的肇事逃逸的關係到後來我們看到肇事逃逸的刑責甚至就有些裁判的律師說肇事逃逸比故意傷害還嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6129.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6157.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
所以就產生一個很荒謬的現象如果你對某人有仇你開車去撞他可能遭遇到的罪責比你在開車的時候不小心跟人家回到那對方可能機車倒地你沒有注意後來人家叫了救護車你自己開走造勢逃逸比故意傷害還要嚴重所以我再強調的是說希望待會法務部還是要針對這些不同的樣態予以區分對於重大案件的被告交保的被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6158.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6181.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
那麼他脫逃了他棄保潛逃我們當然要給予他嚴厲的制裁因為這些是他有相當的利益他才要跑掉嘛但是對於同樣的脫逃罪所刻意對象我的理解認知不知道對不對啦像剛剛我講的那些情況在不知情發布通緝的情況之下後來呢他的本案啊我上次的詢問當中就問過 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6182.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6194.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們上次問過說譬如說什麼情況之下會有所謂的被認定是逃亡或者脫逃第一不知道自己被通緝第二無罪判決因為魏道廷被判刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6197.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6224.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
本案是無罪判決他想這個這麼輕他就根本沒有道庭也判無罪但是呢因為這樣的關係他有可能被認定是潛逃啊所以我們希望呢在場我們有很多有實務的包括主席本身也是檢察官出身那麼或許主席本身在過去執行檢察官業務的時候你會衡量這些案件的輕重情節您不會率而去發布通緝但是有的律師就會遇到說因為面對的檢察官可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6224.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6243.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
案毒牢形案件很多可能只要屢傳不到他可能就發布通緝那後續是不是有適用到161條這樣的脫逃罪的情況以至於他本本罪不成立或本罪呢無罪可是呢卻要吃上脫逃罪的這樣的一個罪責我是覺得這個部分啊其實當我們在訂定法條的時候如果能夠更周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6246.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6275.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
其實是有助於我們立法打擊我們要的對象但避免傷及無辜造成普遍人民的一般生活受到干擾我覺得我們修法的目的應該要很清楚的把我們的對象界定出來那在法條的設定上應該將不同的行為樣態做個區隔那麼如果太籠統出招的一個定罪恐怕未來在執行上也是徒增我們檢察官的困擾也增加人民對司法的不信任跟嫌惡那以上的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6276.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6296.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我希望能夠得到主管機關他們的說明跟回應我補充給我30秒補充我現在可能跟各位補充一個點包括剛剛莊委員也有提到就是本罪跟棄保潛逃這兩個的問題我想跟各位報告一下這兩個東西法律侵害不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6297.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6312.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
譬如說剛剛莊委員所提到的傷害罪他是個人罰役那棄保潛逃他應該是屬於國家罰役兩者不同就像偽證罪你可能作證的他本行是傷害罪但是偽證是七年以下他本來就會高於原本涉案的那個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6313.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6339.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
你在傷害罪的時候你做一個偽證他還是欺點一下偽證罪是重於原本的那個案子所以我個人認為這兩個東西不能這樣比較譬如說偽證罪他侵害的是國家法益那你傷害罪侵害的是個人法益兩者法益不同你不能拿來同一個地方說原本的案子罪比較輕所以脫逃罪罪比較重這個不對這個邏輯是錯誤的我在這邊可能跟各位委員報告一下小弟個人我的淺見那下一位我們請陳俊宇 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6344.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6368.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
直接請法務部回應那我們就麻煩法務部回應好 關於中委員剛剛的提問法務部簡單的說明如下我們妨礙司法公正罪他到底要處罰的被告的行為是什麼是單純的命令的違反還是要另外加上他有一個逃亡跟藏匿的行為那本部署認為妨礙司法公正罪尤其是偷盜罪 棄保潛逃罪他要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6370.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6394.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
第一個他違反法官或檢察官的命令第二個他客觀上另外必須要有一個逃亡或藏匿的行為這兩者加起來之後才有可能會構成棄保潛到罪所以委員剛剛提到很多的版本他的最後的一個行為是細於我們偵查機關或法院通緝與否來決定他成不成立這個犯罪這會造成一個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6395.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6413.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
被告他也許只是單純的沒有到庭但他什麼都沒有做後面他被成立犯罪是因為檢察官把他通緝是因為法院把他通緝他唯一違反的就是命令的違反他也許沒有逃亡這通緝本身也許是錯誤的也許是每一個檢察官的通緝的理由裁定都不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6414.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6428.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以是以偵查機關或者其他機關或我們一般刑法的理念是以行政機關的決定與否判斷與否來成立刑法上的罪基本上本部認為這個方向是比較不贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6429.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6443.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以本部認為這個棄保檢察隊他應該他的客觀行為都必須要有被告一個逃亡或藏匿的行為我們去評價他這個逃亡或藏匿的行為而不是評價檢察官有沒有對他發布通緝以上補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6448.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6477.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
謝謝主席所以我就覺得剛剛次長的回覆就回應到一般因為剛剛謝謝主席他說在整個法例上侵犯的法例不同但是人民是法感那陳儒剛剛所說的他被通緝而不知情的情況下他有可能是板模工人他一天要為了三餐而忙碌他可能接到了傳票或者他家裡離家而出戶籍沒有遷移那這種情況很有可能因為我們發布通緝而造成他觸犯本罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6478.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6504.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那其實呢 我們就以最近的人 我想請教一下次長就是假設啦 那個橘子還是香蕉啦他就出國旅遊啊 愛玩的小孩啊他就出國旅遊啊 他可能出國旅遊之後呢他就跟國內呢 他向來就不跟國內通訊他也沒有去注意到有什麼國內的新聞發生他甚至連自己發布通信都不知道那有可能這種情況之下他好像也沒有外觀上的隱藏 藏匿行蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6505.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6528.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
或者是刻意的去規避那麼剛剛次長所提到的除了發布通緝之外還有客觀上可顯見的隱匿行蹤或逃避追查這樣的行為那更重要的是目前以剛剛那個案子這個可能目前還在日本停留滯留的這個愛玩的小女孩她搞不好是玩的遊山玩水很開心怎麼後來回國後 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6529.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6546.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
發現呢 全案判定了 她是通緝未到然後呢 她就被處以這個刑責有可能到後來她的證實也證明她根本就是完全不知情啊她是個愛玩的小女孩啊她的其他的時間就幫忙拖拖行李箱啊那行李箱裝了什麼事情她未必有知情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6547.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6575.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我們必須假設各種可能性啊因為在這種情況之下如果陳如說被告所辯稱的愛文的小女孩幫她打雜 偷個行李箱這種情況之下她排定了旅程到日本去旅遊到那邊之後她使用現在的支付工具因此從外觀上來講我們本國的檢察機關沒有辦法去查到她的行蹤也沒辦法對她訊息去告知然後她好像又看起來在隱匿譬如她使用那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6577.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6589.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
電子貨幣我們覺得他在隱匿信用卡這種支付的行為他用這種方式交易那是否就會構成他的這樣的一個觸犯本罪呢我是覺得剛剛的次長的說明是否能更具體一點我們必須針對不同的樣態我們必須來考量以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6593.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6609.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那個次長能夠馬上說明一下我順便問完再讓他一起說明一下你是排第三嘛所以麻煩問完又可以繼續追問的話一個人就可以追問我就是要凸顯你我不堅持啦我只是要告訴你說這樣主持會沒完沒了啦就是說他講完每個人講完以後你又發表你的高見然後講完的人次長講完他又想追問 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6623.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6638.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
原來的提問人 他可以繼續追問反而我又不能追問這就好奇怪 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6651.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6677.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
然後跟妨礙司法公正罪 你就認為這個法律不同你們都不曉得 這些案子裡面從在第十屆 第九屆我就一直針對這些概念我就跟你說 學法人完全顛覆掉了如果按照昭和你的講法成立 按照次長你們講法成立的話中華民國大亂了 我們法律就亂定了 為什麼第一個 你說國家法律是最高的 是我們以前從大一開始念的都是這樣 那錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6683.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6693.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
因為你拿出那個概念出來壓人所以我就必須要跟你回應很嚴肅我絕對不是干擾你不是不是我必須要講完沒有如果是他講完的話就不應該是有找你出來教訓人說這個是錯的因為國家法律是高於個人法律不對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6706.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6709.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們過去就是一層一層國家法益 社會法益 個人法益 財產法益麻煩次長能夠補充剛中召委的問題那待會兒中委員在陳俊委員結束之後你可以發表一些我就反對了你反對沒關係 那請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6726.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6740.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
不是啊 你為什麼 鍾嘉賓講完你可以講了一大堆啊我現在舉手發言 你讓我發言不然你就不要跟我講 你跟我講一半這樣也比較沒意思啦你跟我講完等一下我節制啦好不好你讓我講完我等一下很節制你一分鐘內可以講完嗎看你講多久我就要講多久啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6745.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6772.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
不是你跟我講 因為你講多久我只要告訴你說 你要主持會議 你不可以你就給人家公說 按照流程 你既定的流程來你不是給人家公說 你就開始要牽拖一堆你現在說話不能說所以我說一分鐘內麻煩你好 我把他講完 我一分鐘把他講完我就是說 我們過去講的國家法律 社會法律個人法律到財產法律這個已經在我們整個社會充斥的詐騙以後我們所立的法全部都顛覆掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6773.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6789.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
你說國家你把它顛覆掉 叛亂好重你這個放火社會法律 這個也好重你說個人法律 那沒關係啦 那是兄弟而已 看不懂現在反而我們最注重的就是財產法律我們把行動全部都提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6791.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6803.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
所以你剛提那個觀念 我為什麼說你那是錯的啊也許是我們錯的習慣了 錯的習慣了我倒是想聽聽啊 就是說我們把它提高了三倍以後的理由到底是什麼你要講罪質嘛 罪質要相符合嘛我針對原本的問題啊 可是就沒有人來討論這樣的一個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6815.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6818.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
實務上我剛剛看到次長在講的理論上都通啦可是不用太拚啦檢察官在實際操作的時候哪會講的那麼多常常會看心情啊有的會認為說你很可惡啊你說什麼叫做潛逃潛逃有非常不確定的法律概念啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6832.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6835.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
沒來 有的檢察官認為 沒來沒得有事啊佛心來者 有人認為說 你就離掉你照啦你就是不尊重司法啦 馬上就給你發佈通緝檢察官會有所不同涉案的人處置就會完全得到不同的法律效果這個我是比較不贊同次長剛的一個講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6852.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6877.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
因為我們主持會我是比較希望說大家彈性一團和氣之下進行那如果說大家覺得說這樣是不對的一定要所有東西就堅守一秒不能差我也可以這麼做但我的個性比較希望能夠彈性的然後比較大家溫和的對 平和的把會議進行好不好好 那我們麻煩次長能夠盡快說明那次長說明完畢之後我們就請陳俊遠委員發言 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6879.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6906.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
如果棄保潛牢罪它的構成要件是以檢察官通緝與否來決定犯罪成立與否的話這會有一個狀況產生就是說這犯罪的成立決定於一個所謂的客觀的處罰條件這客觀的處罰條件是什麼檢察官或法官有沒有對他發布通緝那被告他主觀的犯意就不被論究了他是客觀上有沒有被通緝他是客觀處罰條件那如果我們構成要件把設計成他除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6908.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6934.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
違反拒保的規定而不到庭再加上他有逃亡或藏匿的事實的話甲官必須要證明他有逃亡的犯意跟這一個藏匿的事實所以這比較主觀上甲官就負舉證責任所以這個對一個三年以下的罪甚至有些委員提到一年以上欠下的罪這他事實上有必要的因為你用客觀處罰條件去處罰他的話那會由客觀上有沒有通緝這事實就決定他 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6936.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6953.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
他棄保就要犯罪了他唯一做的是什麼他就是拒保之後沒有到庭後來甲官認定他逃亡發布通緝這對被告來講他的權益保障是比較不夠周延所以本部認為還是應該要有他的客觀事實應該有逃亡跟倡議而非通緝 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6955.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6980.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
說主觀翻譯的部分是不是?市長你是說主觀翻譯的部分嗎?還是什麼?我沒有聽清楚就是說我們構成要件如果設計成它必須要有逃亡跟藏匿這個構成要件事實的話檢察官必須要證明它有逃亡跟藏匿的這個主觀翻譯跟客觀事實所以這個舉證責任檢察官他就會尊重好 了解 謝謝那那個下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6983.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7007.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好 謝謝主席那我們這20多年來我們台灣發生眾多的棄保潛逃的案例讓各界對於我們司法單位的信心產生動搖但究竟有多少通緝犯下落不明還是不知所蹤我想我們法務部或是司法單位應該都有很明確的一個數據跟名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7010.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7016.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這種情形也並非民進黨執政的時候才會發生這種棄保潛逃在馬政府2008到2016年的時候他執政8年期間我們台灣也共計有212名的藥販逃出國境潛逸在國外多數的這些脫逃的人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7038.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7062.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
多半都往中國繼續在那裡逍遙過好日子當然這也包括我們前立委何志輝還有前立委李慶華還有遠航的前董事崔勇還有一位前工種的理事長陳武雄尤其陳武雄他也是脫逃到 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7063.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7075.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
中國去投靠這個之前也是脫逃的這個我們東地氏集團的這個總裁陳友豪在福建我相信這我們都有資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7076.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7100.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那目前我們針對犯罪者棄保潛逃的這種行為我們僅能對於他們的行為沒入保證金即使未來將人棄捕歸案也不會加重刑責因此這種棄保潛逃的行為對於高刑期的這種重大經濟犯罪的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7101.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7125.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
行為人有相當的吸引力因此對於未來我們要制定這種棄保潛逃罪的構成要件的其明確性還有行度的合理性政策也要兼顧正當性及必要性等等都需要相當謹慎的去思考而且要有更多的討論的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7129.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7143.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
今天看到我們委員會許多委員提出了相對的版本當然我們也期待院版的版本能夠盡快完善的提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7144.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7159.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
來符合我們民眾的期待避免這種棄保潛逃的行為持續的發生我相信這也對我們整個國家的發展還有經濟的發展會造成許多的不良的影響以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7161.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7181.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
好 謝謝 那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員好 謝謝張偉我這邊要有一個疑問不管是台灣民眾黨或者羅委員 謝委員他們的一個提案裡面各位不曉得有沒有去思考你像譬如說台灣民眾黨的條文的一個設計跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7183.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7206.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
羅委員跟謝委員就不一樣羅委員跟謝委員他有第三項的部分他甚至於認為說逃逆被告涉犯罪輕本刑三年以上有期徒刑而犯第一項罪質去加重期刑這個我都認為你去把它做一個比較的話可能台灣民眾黨的想法就是說刑法本來就是稍微要稍微遷移一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7207.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7236.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我不知道他們設計的邏輯思考是什麼但至少你把它看起來就是人會跑掉 人會跑掉其實這個是天性耶尤其是犯重罪的人他想逃是一個天性那你如果說 你如果說一個案子你檢察官到最後被告如果有倒庭沒有倒庭就不用講了沒有倒庭就跑掉了你根本就沒有辦法跟他論罪跟苛刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7238.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7241.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那如果說如果說他今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7242.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7271.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
一個案件裡面他去脫逃了那在檢察官的在論告的時候我相信在最後他一定可能會跟檢察官跟法官講說這個案子因為被告潛逃有脫逃那應該是加重期刑那一個案子在審理的法官他也許也會看到考量綜合各種情況你的犯後的態度但是在新法五十七條裡面其實這些早有規範徒增在這樣的增加這樣的一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7273.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7283.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
是不是適當這個都可以來再討論第二個就是說我剛剛提到的本來一檔你現在變三檔拉了三倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7288.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7310.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
這只因為2017年的一個司法國事會議就把它當成說那個是一個聖旨這個我覺得也未必恰當這個修法來看的話是有一點點民粹那民粹也不是不好如果國民所有的法感法律的感情都認為這些人都是很重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7311.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7340.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
那你要把它提高那也可以可是你相去做對應跟其他的條文來看的話是不是我們有沒有去做一個做一個比較因為你接下來161接下來你會牽扯到我們新增的161條之一你拒保折付限制住居的部分還有限制出境那這些你去做比較的話就變成我在公權力機關掌握之下你把我拖逃的人我提高了三倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7341.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7369.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
可是我本來就不是在公權力機關的掌握之下我本來就是被限制住居而已或者說我限制出境而已或者說我本來是一個被責負的人拒保當然會比較重那我只是單純被檢察官認為說我反正我有責負給誰那這個就變成會這個整個罪責會比較輕的那你把它161之1跟161全部都三年以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7370.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7388.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個好像就是整個量刑完全把它標準化可是在整個罪質之間你去做一個比較的話我認為這個是有點輕重失衡這大家再考慮一下謝謝 那我們下一位請黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7404.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7426.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
謝謝主席現在討論的階段是大體討論還沒有進入到個別討論我想就大體討論的部分先說一下台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我想徵定妨礙司法公正罪包括了棄保潛逃包括了對於證人不當的騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7428.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7456.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
包括了不法的關說這個是我們在2024年大選的時候我們所提出來的證件我們既然提了這個證件我們就會履行所以在2024年3月的時候台灣民眾黨黨團針對妨礙司法公正罪我們就已經提出了我們的條文跟版本第二個針對行政院的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7457.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7485.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我必須要說從我第一次在當立委的時候斯卡國事會議結束了以後針對七寶潛逃針對不法關說這些妨礙司法公正的行為我那個時候大概為了法務部恩賜你們的版本到底什麼時候要拿出來你們的版本到底什麼時候要拿出來在那個時候前法務部的部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7486.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7512.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
蔡清祥在面對我質詢的時候說我們的版本已經送到立法院了被我當場抓包根本在說謊版本根本就沒送來我還那個時候質詢我記得很清楚我還請召委把時間停下來要議事人員查清楚什麼時候行政院送氣泡檢查罪的條文到立法院來我竟然會不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7514.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7543.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
結果發現蔡清祥根本就是在說謊一路的延宕一路的拖延到2024年我重新回到立法院第一次我質詢的時候院會總質詢我就問了妨礙司法公正罪棄保檢討不法關說什麼時候條文要送到立法院來跟我說還在研議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7544.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7567.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
不斷的研議新的部長第一次到社會法治委員會來備選的時候我問一樣的問題還是在研議請問台灣社會要等法務部多久要等行政院多久等到天荒地老等到海枯石爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7568.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7597.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
你們不送條文來我們不能處理那是不是代表以後永遠都不要處理有這種道理喔有這種道理喔這如果今天是新的事情新的條文新的概念新的法案你這樣講或許有道理啊整整拖了七年欸拖七年還不夠什麼時候立法院變成只要行政部門不提版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7598.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7616.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們法案就不適合處理那這樣豈不給你們行政部門擺爛的權利拖延的權利鬼混的權利版本不送來是要法治不能處理哪有這種事情啦換了多久啦第三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7625.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7643.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
針對剛剛有委員說什麼本屆世華法制什麼過當干預司法我老實講我是聽不懂啊因為本屆世華法制委員會的委員就我所知啊沒有人打電話去給法務部部長喬啊不要針對他個人訴訟係數的案件啊提起上訴啊沒有立法委員幹這種事啊有嗎如果有等一下請部長說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7657.557 |
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7681.848 |
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本屆世話法治委員會的委員就我所知啊也沒有像邱泰山一樣去約桃園地檢署的檢察長到大車輪吃日本料理回去施壓基層的檢察官當逃稅5億的大亨開啟認罪協商沒有發生這樣的事啊 |
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7687.898 |
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7710.747 |
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本屆司法法治委員會的委員我也沒有看到有率眾去踹法務部部長大門的啊這些事情我通通都沒有看到啊對司法權的行使我們請記得一個原則啊司法權的行使有他自己專業獨立的要求但不是免於公眾監督啊 |
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7712.441 |
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7739.609 |
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司法權的行使不是免於公眾監督啊我舉一個最簡單的例子就好了2022年的時候美國聯邦最高法院把在1973年所成立劃時代的判決Roy vs Wade把女性的墮胎權給限縮掉了那個時候多少人跑去聯邦最高法院前面抗議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7742.998 |
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7755.063 |
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連前美國總統對不起他還不是前他還是現任的美國總統還沒有辦交接拜登直接延遲批評不是2022年批評2024年繼續批評公開的講這樣的聯邦最高法院必須要被改革對司法權的公眾監督本來就是在一個民主憲政的法治國家下面公民應該行使的權利 |
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7772.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7778.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我怎麼沒有聽過有人在批評到聯邦最高法院前面針對Vs. |
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7778.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7780.191 |
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Wade去抗議的民眾說他們在干預司法說他們在強迫司法不要把不同的概念放在妨礙司法公正罪的脈絡裡面來討論只會一笑大方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7797.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7816.259 |
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真的只會一笑大方啊讓社會大眾啊 嚴重的懷疑啊本院司法法治委員會的委員是不是連現在在討論什麼法案在討論什麼罪名他的罪職是什麼要保護的法義是什麼連這種基本的法律概念都欠缺基本的理解第三個部分啊剛剛 |
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7823.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7848.877 |
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次長坐在這邊的說明說法務部的立場如何如何法務部的立場如何如何我老實講我有點聽不懂我想要請教部長跟次長2019年法務部送院的條文你們有沒有看過你如果有看過的話你今天還坐在這邊做這樣的發言那我就有第二個問題了召委我要求的權利跟其他委員一樣 |
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7851.543 |
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7875.618 |
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剛在我發言之前我現在是第一次發言我前面為了會議主持的順暢我一句話都沒有講那如果其他委員有詢問官員在大體討論有詢問官員的權利那就請法務部講清楚從2019年以後到現在你們法務部有沒有送新的版本給行政院如果有的話現在印出來給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7878.527 |
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7905.282 |
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如果有的話現在印出來給大家因為當你在說法務部的立場的時候我完全聽不懂我完全聽不懂我為什麼說我完全聽不懂你們2019年9月17號法務部抱怨的版本然後我們來看一下我先從最基本的啦先從最基本的ABC開始講啦脫逃罪現在我們的刑法是一年以下嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7906.445 |
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7931.178 |
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那為什麼要提高到三年以下刑度太輕了嘛日本刑法就三年以下嘛你們今年夏天送來本院的報告你也跟所有的立委講啊脫逃罪 三年以下有期徒刑跟你們法務部的立場是一致的嘛我國的脫逃罪 法定刑太低討論了很久了啦討論了非常久了 |
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7934.201 |
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7963.061 |
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所以從思改國事會議以後法務部向來立場才會一直主張我們應該要跟日本刑法的脫逃罪一樣定到三年以下有期徒刑嘛針對這一點我有沒有說錯請法務部列為第一個問題回答第二個問題你們在2019年9月17號抱怨的第十章之一妨礙司法公正罪章的草案有沒有報新的條文上去有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7964.195 |
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7985.845 |
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如果有的話等一下請印給大家看這不是國家機密啊這不會妨礙到台灣的國防也不會妨礙到台灣的外交如果有的話印給大家看第三個問題來你看一下你們2019年9月17號報佈的條文是怎麼寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7991.307 |
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8013.379 |
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172條之一被告受拒保則附獲限制諸局經合法傳喚無正當理由不到庭就可以處三年以下有期徒刑了所以現在法務部見解變更了是不是見解變更了什麼時候變更了透過什麼程序變更了為什麼今天次長坐在這邊所講的話跟法務部當初報部的抱怨的條文長得完全不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8014.96 |
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8029.168 |
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我再念一次啊被告受拒保責負或限制駐居經合法強化無證當理由不到庭處三年以下有期徒刑這是你們法務部啊當初抱怨的版本當初法務部抱怨的版本是因為民粹嗎 |
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8031.092 |
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8048.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
是因為對刑法基本理論欠缺認識嗎是因為沒有深思熟慮嗎是因為隨便寫一寫嗎如果不是的話當初為什麼報這個條文到行政院今天的見解是不是有改變為什麼坐在這邊講的話 |
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8049.93 |
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8060.893 |
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跟當初法務部在刑法研修小組研修了半天以後抱怨的條文所採取的立場完全不一致這個是第三個部分的問題請法務部一併回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8063.988 |
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8079.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
好 那我們就依照剛剛的做法我們就請法務部直接回答好 謝謝好 跟方委員報告那108年9月報行政院版本我們脫逃罪的確是當時的草案是三年以下是沒有問題但是在行政院審查的過程當中經過了11次的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8082.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8107.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
在這11次審查裡面各方對這個傷害司法公正罪他非常多的各方的意見包括罪名也好 構成要件也好 相關的規範都有一些討論所以這個版本是經過11次行政院會討論之後綜合各方的意見之後所出來的一個初步的一個見解那另外委員提到我們本部有沒有正式報公文 |
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8107.463 |
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8117.767 |
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不好意思我提一下齁你說經過11次討論了以後經過11次討論以後的版本現在在哪裡?他是在行政院審查的對嘛啊你說嘛經過討論了是修了11次嗎? |
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8124.065 |
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8137.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
現在最新的版本現在在哪裡?畢竟本部已經送到行政院嘛你說本部送到行政院指的是2019年嘛那我們就一件事情一件事情講清楚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8138.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8164.441 |
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現在我剛我在跟你討論的第一個基準是你們2019年送給行政院的版本嘛那你現在的解釋是說到行政院修了很多次嘛那我現在就請教你們行政院修到最後的版本現在在哪裡現在在行政院嗎可以提供給本委員會的委員參考嗎這個因為行政院的執掌我本部沒有辦法帶他回答所以這個是行政院的執掌嗎你們有沒有派人去行政院參加這個會議當然有 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8166.994 |
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8188.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那所以你們手上沒有這個版本?這個最終決定行政院版本它畢竟是商機機關它要送出委員會它必須...第二個部分你們法務部到目前為止有送新的版本進去給行政院嗎?因為11次過程當中它會不斷的修正那有沒有一個正式的公文就還要再查它不斷的修正...沒有關係啊 那就請你回去查就請你回去查盡速回覆啊盡速回覆啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8197.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8220.821 |
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法務部的立場到底是什麼說清楚講明白本委員會的委員我們在立法審議的過程當中會尊重你們的意見會聽你們的聲音所以才會看你們七月的時候交一份報告一月的時候交一份報告嘛立法院在審議的時候為什麼要法務部繳報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8223.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8245.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
你們所有的意見都應該寫在這報告裡啊讓委員在會前就可以充分的閱讀啊不用坐到這邊的時候重新詢問你們法務部的立場是什麼嗎一個立法委員坐在這邊審法案以前行政機關的報告長什麼樣子寫什麼東西立場是什麼要先看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8250.953 |
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8262.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
看完了以後 知道你們的想法 知道你們的立場是尊重你們行政機關表達意見的機會跟權利最後立法的決斷還是要立法委員來做嘛好 謝謝大家就再麻煩法務部能夠照剛剛要求處理那我們下一位請審法會委員發言主席各位同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8281.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8288.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我想我們今天就這個相關的這些刑法部分條件修正的這些草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8290.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8312.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
其實我們大概就是幾個部分,這個大家所提的這麼多版本,以及包括今天才後來又補題的幾個版本大概就是針對氣保潛逃,針對妨礙司法公正,另外針對不法關說等等這些,提出這些刑法的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8313.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8316.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
事實上剛大家都提,從2017年到現在2017年司法國事會議到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8322.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8344.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這個已經經過七年的時間了那這七年的時間剛才在在這個大力討論其他委員的的發言中大概也呈現出來這個事實上從法務部這個抱怨2019年抱怨之後事實上也經過我個人了解剛剛提到經過11次的經過11次的這個演商會議的那這個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8350.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8371.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
司法國事會議做出了這樣子的一個結論就是說應該要訂定這個棄保潛逃的這個罪責必須應該要做這個妨礙司法公正的這些罪行但是問題是據我了解這樣子的所謂棄保潛逃相關的這些規定它其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8372.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8401.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
是英美法系的一個概念其實這個不知道,如果我講的不對,法務部可以糾正我這個棄保潛逃他的罪責事實上他的起源是來自於英美法系的概念因為在這個大陸法系裡面這個有一個不知正己罪的一個原則所以因此在他就交保本身他就是一個責任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8404.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8428.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這個保釋金本身就是一個責任的苛責所以這個所謂棄保潛逃它沒有在大陸法系原本它的理論體系裡面是沒有這個那這樣子的當然現在其他有許多國家大陸法系他們也陸續漸漸的把它放進這個棄保潛逃這樣子的概念那這個但是畢竟它是不同的法律體系概念的納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8430.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8457.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
要納入一個不同法律體系的概念因此裡面確實在這整個過程裡面包括對於它的許多構成要件包括對於它的許多罪責這些都會有相當多的討論空間這也是我們今天看到這麼多的版本其實我們看到今天這麼多委員所提案的黨團所提案的這些版本事實上本身從立法體系本身就非常的不同意因為它不是一個有範本 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8459.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8486.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
的一個有範本可供參考的一個立法體系所以各個版本它本身的立法體系本身就有很多的不同這是第一點第二點這裡面的這些構成要件我看了也有很多包括我們法務部剛剛的報告也提到裡面確實有很多不確定的法律概念在裡面在這些委員的提案或黨團提案裡面這些部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8487.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8501.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
作為提案是可以啦但是我們要經過立法通過這些不確定的法律概念這個是要相當的審酌另外就是也因為這個是新訂的罪證因此他所有的這些裡面這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8504.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8525.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
不同的行為態樣、構成要件它的這些罪行相當的原則其實裡面有很多漢格有一些刑法各罪之間的這些刑度的橫平事實上並沒有掌握的在各個版本裡面也都不一樣掌握的也不是很精確諸如此類的這些問題我個人是認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8532.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8558.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
如果我們今天我們立法院我們要負責任的我們司法法治委員會要通過這個立法今天以我們今天在場這些委員大家就每一個委員可能都有自己已經有提案有很多委員有自己有提案他對於自己的版本的看法就我們今天這幾個委員大家來討論這些這麼多的包括裡面有不確定的法律概念包括裡面有一些罪行 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8559.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8579.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
橫平的失衡的問題這些問題我個人是認為說在今天一天的會議裡面這樣來討論這個東西我個人認為非常的危險那我也不希望說今天出委員會之後最後我們的立法方式又是在最後要二讀表決之前才能再拿到一個大家所不曾看過的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8581.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8595.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
然後再依修正統以來通過這種最惡劣的立法程序我個人認為這種法律的立法我認為不應該再用這樣的方式來進行所以我具體的建議其實像我講說這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8597.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8614.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
像這個我們在講到這個司法關說罪這裡面對於大家每一個人條文裡面有不法關說有以不正當的行為不正當方法行關說或講脫責等等這些我覺得都不是都不是確定的法律概念啊而且都沒有定義大概只有我們主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8615.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8634.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
在立法說明裡面有特別針對不法官說有做了一個定義那這個定義也讓我覺得很疑惑啦這個我們主席的定義是說所謂不法官說是細指運用其職務或身份地位之實質影響力使該等人員為積極作為或消極之不作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8635.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8650.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那這個運用其職務及身份地位實行影響力這個個人進行這個叫做這個處局把他定義叫不法關說那聚眾勒?聚眾實行叫什麼?這種跨度定顧忌這個又叫什麼?這個罪行有要定義嗎?所以這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8660.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8680.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這麼多的不確定法律概念在這個立法過程裡面我個人是建議雖然這個司法國事會議在2017年他所做出的是一個原則認為說應該要訂定這個這個細胞潛逃應該要訂定這個妨礙司法的這些相關罪責但是當我們條文出來我們真的要立法之前我個人認為這這麼多的這些問題應該我們還是應該要召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8684.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8699.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
公聽會讓各界來幫忙我們立法委員來檢視這些條文裡面的問題包括這整個立法體系大家每個人提的版本立法體系都不同我相信透過公聽會的方式讓更多司法學者在 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8700.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8704.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
跟實務參與者在在我們目前的提案當中來檢視這些問題能夠讓我們司法法治委員會再做出最後我們的決定我不管法務部有沒有版本我們當然是可以就現在目前委員的提案來來進行討論但是這些提案我認為應該要經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8719.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8742.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
社會這些學者跟司法實務者大家共同的檢視我認為說這樣子的公聽會是真的是必要的這個我良心的建議本委員會也良心的建議主席能夠在這個我們立法之前就這些條文我們來進行一個公聽會包括讓大家來檢視這裡面是不是這個不同的立法體系到底是哪一個立法體系比較適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8743.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8758.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
讓大家共同的意見來針對裡面的這些一些不確定的法律概念針對裡面的一些相當罪行的這個橫評來做一些各方意見的表示能夠讓我們立法真的更周延以上謝謝 那下面我們請羅志強委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8764.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8790.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
首先我要謝謝我們吳宗憲召委今天做一個讓我覺得稍微有點公道的一個主持因為才在上次的我們宗嘉賓的召委在主持的時候我跟翁曉琳委員在問司法院的官員代表然後問一個非常簡單的問題只有YES NO就可以回答的問題其實我們宗嘉賓召委就是一定要說要等到後面的委員問完才可以問 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8791.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8807.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
所以我要特別講,我今天謝謝吳宗憲、趙偉今天就非常公正、中立委員本來很多問題不懂、不了解,需要在深入的跟官員探討那提問的時候,其實趙偉跟主席是要協助讓委員去釐清問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8809.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8833.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
而不是說今天為了護航為了什麼樣其他個人的因素來去阻攔今天委員的一個跟官員的溝通跟提問那我覺得真的謝謝我們的吳宗憲召委我覺得這樣才是一個好的主持方式那接下來我就要講說我們潘國昌委員剛剛講很多東西我認同但有一件事情那我就要把它再釐清得更清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8834.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8860.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
他說本屆的司法委員會沒有成員去不法關說司法去關說司法我想我們黃國昌委員是給柯建民總召面子柯建民總召就是最有名的關說司法的代表人物這是為什麼今天我要特別提出這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8861.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8887.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
左七年右七年拖了七年還要再七年嗎不管要辦公聽會還是要等行政院版本如果今天這個不法關說罪今天棄保潛逃罪是今天我們在這邊突然跟石猴子碰出來的一個idea想法說我們今天就是要過那你跟我講要公聽會很好啊就公聽會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8888.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8914.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
那你跟我講說要等行政院版本很好啊 就等行政院版本是嗎 不是吧蔡英文總統任內的司法國事會這麼浩浩蕩蕩 盛盛大大的司法國事會議針對這兩件事情都有非常廣泛的討論做出兩個決定 決議就是要有七法檢討罪跟妨害司法公正罪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8915.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8943.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
七年過去不動如山然後現在跟我講說不夠成熟我們還要再等再等再等那我想請問你是要等70年嗎所以不要再找脫的藉口我直接幫大家翻譯成大白話啦今天關說司法的記錄者一個就是我們柯建民總召啊為了自己的案子關說檢察官不要上訴啊最後無罪確定啊第二個有名的例子就是邱泰山啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8944.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8970.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
邱太三就是也是在當過法務部長邱太三也還去關說司法第三有名例子剛剛我們這個黃國昌委員也點到還有人去踹法務部長大門不就是邱毅英所以我要跟各位說今天在這邊真的拜託啦理由藉口用光光以後就不要再拖了啦台灣司法不受信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8972.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8980.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
就是因為有像柯建民、有像邱太三這樣一個運用自己的權力關係然後去針對檢察機關關說的一個權貴存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8990.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9014.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
今天台灣為什麼很多棄保潛逃人家之前爆發的不管是林秉文還是其他很多的一些案子對我們的綠色權貴或跟綠色關係很好的一些不管詐騙犯還是說今天是貪污犯都可以棄保潛逃因為你們就是開了一扇門給大家棄保潛逃所以換言之今天在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9016.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9041.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
超越黨派不要再有所謂的一堆藉口跟理由如果要證明今天不是為了護航綠色那請今天我們就不要再拖了該通過早就該通過的棄保潛逃罪跟早就該通過的防害司法公正罪今天就讓它成為我們司法的一個里程碑讓我們司法贏回尊嚴跟贏回他的公信力謝謝好 謝謝那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9046.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9067.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好 謝謝剛剛志祥委員誇讚了中間召委那不好意思 我在持反方向我還是要說 今天的時間是1月6號星期一那如果以這個會期 原定的秀會時間是1月21號 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9069.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9083.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那因為韓國瑜院長要接受總統的指派到美國去川普的就任所以也有可能要在1月15號來休會換言之我們的總預算剩下最後一個禮拜的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9085.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9099.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我要再次說如果今天我們就進行交委的排案優先就法務部的預算現在來審查早上9點到11點我們大概已經有相當大的進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9101.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9117.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
因為每一天我們作為黨編每一天在算時間今天下午韓國瑜院長主持的朝野協商為什麼沒有辦法排入總預算的協商就因為司法法治委員會還沒有把預算送出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9118.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9133.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以這是我每天在跟時間分秒必爭我們今天當然妨礙司法公正罪或是棄保檢討罪要修法我們都可以討論但是對一個還沒有行政院版 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9134.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9160.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
而且院版出來還要彙嫌司法院連這個共識性都還沒有的法案然後今天我們這麼多時間大家還在做很多沒有辦法聚焦的討論那在議案排審的選擇上我真的覺得很遺憾因為我也不想我們是司法法治委員我們要擔起說我們是最後一個送出總預算讓總預算延宕審查跟協商大家都承擔不起啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9161.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9183.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
所以我還是呼籲這個召委的排案如果今天我們優先進行法務部的預算審議我相信都會相對的有進程有進展也不會影響院會的期程那講回這個今天講的法案我覺得這是一個兩難我非常同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9185.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9208.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
鍾瑞雄委員說的 刑責的遷移原則 不要任意去擴張範圍我也非常同意 審法會委員說的現在提出來的七個版本充滿了太多不確定的法律概念所以對於棄保潛逃罪的怎麼定 它確實是一個兩難你對於重罪 對於輕罪 你的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9210.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9234.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
比例原則在哪裡你對於輕罪或者是對於冤案的被告來講如果你的棄保譴責對你沒有搭配這個除罪條款或者是補償的機制那麼真的很多當事人他輕罪他最後是被獲得平反的時候可是你已經沒有辦法補償他了 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9235.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9264.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以這是配套的制度所以對輕罪來講棄保潛逃罪的刑責會失去了他的比例原則但對於重罪來講現在我們最高三年刑期的這個修法的這個這個天花板恐怕又不痛不癢所以這是一個兩難需要充分再更對話更聚焦而且我要講不是只有大家都在為難法務部的版本什麼時候送行政院行政院什麼時候送出來不要忘了還要會嫌司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9266.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9286.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
這當中的共識性那在野黨委員今天在這個會議上我都覺得平行時空耶今天把思改國是會議講得奉為歸逆那過去我們在討論其他的議案譬如說憲法法庭的這個這個原額這個憲法解釋的這個比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9287.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9297.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
要幾位才能夠算他事先成立為什麼又跟過去思改國事會議的結論在野黨的立場又不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9299.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9324.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
所以私改活式會議一下子把它捧得如此之高一下子完全釋之於這個完全不予理會我覺得這種說法也實在是非常沒有原則所以說我們在討論這個法案刑期的天花板氣泡潛逃罪的天花板或是地板怎麼定才合理我覺得今天在場的每一個位立委沒有人可以說得準 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9326.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9344.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
他的比例原则确实你很难去横平的去处理他那我另外刚刚讲的人权上的疑虑如果对于轻罪的人你对于除罪条款对于补偿机制也没有一并去思维的话这样子的修法真的都是挂一漏万 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9344.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9360.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那講回一個更大的範圍防害司法公正罪裡頭除了棄保潛逃罪你另外的司法關說罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外的湮滅證據罪今天沒有人提出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9361.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9388.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以整個完整的我覺得大家不要挖東牆補西牆然後眼前補這一塊而欠缺了一個全官的修法該有的一個最大的那個思維這個都是我們要思考的好 回到妨礙司法公正罪裡頭像我就一直認為現在民眾黨的版本對於法定程序外對法官或檢察官為不法官說者對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9389.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9409.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
这是非常不确定的法律概念刚刚我们发会委员讲了非常多那为什么只对于惩判法官跟检察官的不法官说你要定那对于惩判法官或检察官的长官进行了如同有官说一样的效用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9410.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9426.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
譬如說請託施壓譬如說立委在審預算的時候或是排專案報告的方式或是用臨時提案的方式去干預了司法個案的審判偵辦這算不算一併要納入妨害司法公正罪的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9428.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9445.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這個都要來思維跟思量啊所以再次希望這些東西沒有辦法今天我們在場這幾位來清楚的就很兩難的可能違反比例原則的是沒有完整配套的來做出一個很好的定奪我們要這麼粗糙嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9447.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9462.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
要这么为修而修吗要修就真的好好的修好而不是修了一部分来引发其他的疑虑跟困难所以我还是希望公听会我们需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9463.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9489.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
等待行政院的版本會嫌司法院共同的主張我們需要參照這才是讓我們進入條文裡頭讓我們的修法的參照更完備也更有力也不會失之偏頗更不會流於政黨的意氣之爭我再次希望主席我們是不是這個議題就應當打住我們來審預算好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9490.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9511.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
剛好今天坐在這也是法務部長嘛你的預算還沒開始審嘛我們就來審預算吧要不然全部沒有辦法進入預算協商然後最後是因為司法法治委員會沒有送出預算我的天啊我相信審預算你們應當也都準備好了吧為什麼不審預算呢禮拜四排了來 司民剛好在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9512.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9539.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
今天因為如果15號要休會如果15號要休會好那如果沒有就算21號休會的話你一樣你排這個禮拜四才審法務部的預算審完一次還不一定能審完你審完還要送出審查報告然後要整理文書然後整理議案再送到朝野協商你只剩下下一週假設不是15號休會但是韓院長似乎蠻期待15號休會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9542.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9566.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
所以我們在跟時間賽跑,為什麼不把眼前該做的功課先寫好呢?我每天,我們做黨編,私名委員跟我一樣嘛,我們的思維都是希望趕快進入預算的協商,現在都沒辦法啊。所以為什麼不把這個時間,大家預算提案,各個委員,各黨委員都提出具體的提案,我相信法務部都已經準備好了啊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9566.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9589.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
就來審預算啊對不對 趙偉 你拜是太晚了拜是太晚了 這樣真的我們黨別來不及協商預算喔我們現在在打理討論的部分不是預算好嗎 我還是要說我一開始就說這個排案真的是這個priority真的要好好思量一下啦好 謝謝委員好 那這樣喔我們要登記對 要登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9590.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9612.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
因為我們沒有接著登記,所以林委員可以來登記我們現在宣告一個,因為法務部部長有先說他待會有要務所以早上我已經同意他11點可以先離開由次長在現場繼續回答大家委員的問題這是第一個第二個就是,因為剛剛那個委員有提到幾個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9614.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9634.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以我這邊主持會議的部分因為是這樣預算審查我們是排在本週四就會審查那如果認為說這個週四週一議程要對調其實上個禮拜五可以跟我講因為我們上禮拜五就已經發出來通知了嘛那如果認為四跟一要對調我也沒有意見我跟議長你會聽嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9636.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9650.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那我今天講你聽啊我上禮拜五跟你講你會聽嗎那我現在主張要不要來調整一下我們今天都已經進行到上午了你上個禮拜五跟我講的話你不能現在想說你上個禮拜五講我不會聽啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9653.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9666.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
我們不要去說上禮拜五講會不會停就是說如果各位對於我這邊安排的議程順序有意見可以在我公告的時候趕快跟我講然後我來趕緊變更這個沒有問題我一直都希望會議進行能夠和諧所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9670.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9688.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
因為上個禮拜我訂完之後並沒有人跟我提所有這個問題所以我就是照著這個議程來走更何況今天也都沒有準備相關的資料那還有就是剛剛有提到那個法務部因為吳委員剛剛可能不在現場因為我們為什麼今天會推這個法案是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9689.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9711.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
108年就已經送到行政院那到現在已經五年了所以因為五年這個時間這麼長所以我們才會認為說那既然沒有要提就由我們立法委員盡責的為這個社會去提這個法案所以我想應該不是不是這個這個問題啦那剛那個委員還有提到一個就是法官檢察官的長官接受官說的話沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9712.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9741.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
沒有責任這個部分其實我的修正動議已經有把這個這一塊是有的好那這個部分也是很謝謝法務部這段時間給我們的資料所以後來我修正動議也覺得好那我們應該是把這個範圍更加擴張所以跟國務委員報告一下這部分我修正動議其實有在裡面好那下一位我們請林思明委員發言好謝謝我想召會真的很辛苦眼睛前陣子才那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9744.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9769.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個開刀現在馬上又來開會真的很辛苦那我想預算的問題呢我先回應一下那個施堯的這個說要審預算我想我們議程都排得很清楚剛才張維也講得很清楚預算就是在星期四那我們大家在星期四就好好在就法務部的預算來做討論今天排定的議程就是這個有關於棄保減逃罪以及司法關稅罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9770.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9789.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那當然剛剛大家提了很多說這一次的修法會不會太充滿或怎麼樣我想剛才我們已經充分的說了委員充分表達意見這個法案棄保潛逃罪或者是司法這個關說罪呢這個都已經可以說從2017到現在已經多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9793.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9797.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
所以我想各界的意見其實都有很多的意見在我們隨時都可以採集得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9803.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9829.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那剛才審判委員有提到說這個不法關說到底他的類型或者是要講他的類型到底是怎麼樣他是一個不確定的法律概念其實我想各位委員大家都非常了解其實法律他不可能把整個類型把它規範得很清楚他只能有一個一般的一個就是一般性的一個規範我們立法者就立出一個一般性的規範然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9831.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9859.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
再由法官或者檢察官針對各個實際上發生的犯罪類型他們來做這個認定所以我想這個講說不法官說這四個字其實我個人認為不會造成未來檢察官或者法官在審判或者在起訴的時候造成說有所謂的這個無所適從的這樣一個情況發生所以這部分我想我們立法者 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9860.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9877.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
把這個不法官說把它定義就是把它在文字上面說所謂的有對法官或檢察官或者他監督的長官為不法官說這樣的一個文字的敘述我個人認為這個不會是不確定的法律概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9878.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9897.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那各方剛才大家的疑慮說對於說檢察官或者法官的長官監督長官為不法官說是不是也應該包括在內那剛才召委的修正動議也很清楚的把這一部分也已經把它做修正動議了所以這方面的疑慮也沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9898.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9924.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以我認為如果我們要把這個不法關說罪我們要盡速立法讓我們的司法能夠更公正我個人是覺得各位委員我們不要再拖了我們大家可以透過今天的一個審查盡速的給他送出委員會我們盡速完成二讀跟三讀另外就這個妨礙司法的妨礙司法這一部分就那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9925.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9949.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所謂的這個棄保潛逃這部分那我想我們增訂了對於說這個金命拒保責負限制住居限制出境或限制出海的逃亡隱匿行為這個就是過去一直沒有規範到的雖然法務部對這個刑度認為說跟我們的脫逃罪一樣因為親愛的法律類型不一致這樣的立法是不是適宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9952.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9958.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
我會做這樣的一個立法呢,我覺得說,其實你說它現在的法例不一樣,但是把它一樣規範在161條第一項裡面,去把它納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9968.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9988.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我覺得這個其實跟棄保潛逃罪還是有它的關聯性雖然現在的法律看起來是有點不一樣但是一樣把它納入我不曉得法律為什麼反對但是立法體力我覺得並沒有說不適宜的地方如果我們要把這個棄保潛逃罪進入這種類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9991.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10015.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
補足 盡速的完成二讀三讀我覺得這應該是可以在今天就可以把討論完成了所以我想我們大家不要再拖了這個反正等太久了所以希望大家都要齊力來支持讓這個不管是棄跑減逃或者妨礙司法公正這兩個罪盡速完成立法以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10019.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10031.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
好 謝謝 那這樣我們等一下要不要進行第二輪的 大家也好好 那進行第二輪 那因為我們現在剛剛那個務委員有說我們休息五分鐘 大家要協調一下那我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10363.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10367.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
那我們就繼續開始,那我們現在進行第二輪,那再麻煩登記發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10393.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10393.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我們就請鍾昭偉進行發言謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10402.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10423.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那我們社會法治委員會真的是相當的認真雖然前面有委員也提到說我們的預算審查這個預算會期的確沒有料到有這麼多的重要法案要審查那在這裡也跟我們主席做個分享因為事實上在本會期當中有限的討論時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10425.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10443.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那至少就我負責的部分的預算都能夠如期的交付所以有餘裕進行包括稅務行政事件審理法等這些攸關民生重大的法案事實上我們本委員會在上個會期就是去年的4月到 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10445.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10463.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
七月的之間我們也就包括像保單抵稅這樣的重大關係社會民生的問題也充分的跟司法院做了一些協調那也很欣慰的能夠得到包括司法院跟金管會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10465.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10493.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
去共同處理那目前呢陸陸續續在經委員那邊即將有保險法的修法要進行那我之所以提出這些意思是說今天呢只要是涉及到民生重大的法案我們委員會一定責無旁貸的要相當用心的來審理那麼在我們本會期索性包括運動部的成立因為跟教育委員會聯席我們也協助完成了包括行政院組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10494.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10519.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
中央行政機關基準法等以及幾個組織法都已經通過了那我是很懇切的希望今天我們對於眾所關注的社會重大刑事案件那對於包括棄保潛逃其實應該整個來講我看到這些修正條文的內容是整體來講是妨礙司法公正那妨礙司法公正不單只是一個棄保潛逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10525.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10549.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
氣保是一個前提那氣保之前氣保一定有一個發布通緝的一個處分然後潛逃要有外觀上必須去藏匿或者是說這些逃亡的事實那在這樣的氣保潛逃的規範之下會不會有其他我們剛剛所交換的意見其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10551.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10574.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
不要說輕罪啦就是其他的相對在我們一般生活當中會遭遇到的譬如說像車禍事故引發的傷害譬如說像肇事逃逸引發的這些相關的案件那這都是在我們民眾生活當中相當常遇見的那麼如果說我們能夠在這個過程當中將所有的所謂包括棄保潛逃在內棄保之後他的發布通緝以及有潛逃的客觀外在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10581.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10603.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
舉證那麼才會去嚴格化他後續罪行的啟動我想這個會比較完整那另外在談到的就是所謂妨礙司法公正那剛剛在之前的發言當中我們本席也針對法務部希望說了解到法務部過去已經在行政院交付之後也充分的進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10605.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10626.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那最後呢就是因為還是要回到行政院院會同意後才能夠跟司法院會嫌才能送到立法院來所以呢我們立法院這邊委員會這邊也是希望能夠了解到行政院對於這個妨礙司法公正的專章到底有什麼樣的構想我們是非常非常的有興趣去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10626.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10641.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那而這個專章各條文的設計規劃會影響到社會哪些層面我相信也會社會大眾所關注的因此呢剛剛在前面已經有委員提到了對於包括像稅務行政事件審理法我們就召開過公聽會包括說我們對於保單底 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10646.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10665.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
在這個部分我們也召開過公聽會那舉凡這些一般民生攸關的法案我們都會辦理公聽會而且會盡量的提供不只是司法委員會我們本會各委員的版本或者是政黨的提案版本我們也會盡量去求取到相關行政機關他們對這些相關法制設計的研議內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10669.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10679.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
那這些原因內容呢可能再回到台南前奧說妨礙司法公正當中我們目前的現有版本大概都只有提到了所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10681.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10698.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
影響作證那麼那在這些滅證罪當中我們的司法官說那司法官說跟滅證這個其實呢是一體的兩面前者呢你將這個罪證讓他無法呈現在司法審判當中後者呢你是妨礙作證或 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10700.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10724.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
司法關說都影響到審理的公正性這些其實在妨礙司法公正當中都是必要的但是目前現有的版本我們並沒有充分地顯現包含了從剛剛所說的棄保潛逃到妨礙作證到我們所看到的有些設計是司法關說以及這邊所沒有的因滅證據滅證罪這些都是在妨礙司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10728.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10752.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
公正應有的專章當中我說專章是因為目前我們版本就有人提出專章的章名這裡面就是第十章之一妨礙司法公正罪這樣的一個設計的確是比較周延所以本席在這邊利用委員會的審查時間那也是建請我們主席再考量到本會期如果還有餘裕的話因為真的知道我們目前會期很緊 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10752.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10778.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我算一算下個星期有三次那本星期的話因為昭緯已經安排了週四是要審查法務部的預算那我不曉得說還有哪些吳昭緯所安排的所排定的預算要進行審查那我的部分都審查完了那至於本週三因為上次跟昭緯吳昭緯做輪調所以本週三已經也發布就是就 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10783.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10811.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
稅審法呢我們就繼續審議那我是想呢接下來還有下週的三次以及1月20號的一次算來算去除了本週已排定的三次之外還剩四次的時間那是不是有可能我們本委員會能夠就這麼重要的一個影響民眾權益相當廣泛的專章的設計那剛剛也有委員提到說到目前為止坦白說行政院前期的研議這個不是什麼秘密啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10812.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10832.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我當然知道行政機關 行政院 法務部基於機關倫理在行政院院會並沒有合訂前他是不便於對外拒文來跟立法院表達 交他們的版本甚至就算是行政院院合訂了 還要跟司法院會前這才是能完成一個完整的司法體系的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10833.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10847.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那我是覺得在進行這個過程當中可否呢我們可以就行政院原來擬定的這些架構內容那我們本委員會再參酌其他委員的各種版本那包括補足了包括一滅證據罪這個很重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10849.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10874.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
妨礙司法公正的這些罪名或規劃那我們來辦一個公聽會那我是覺得這次廣泛討論呢如果我們能夠進行更周延相信未來在逐條的時候或者有更完備的版本或修正動議如果考量到時間我覺得這個事情也很重要感覺上也很急迫那我們都可以用修正動議的方式讓這個法案能夠更完備那以上就懇請我們主席能夠來審酌 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10878.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10880.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我們下一位請審發會委員發言首先我對剛剛莊嘉斌委員所提的我個人是有一點不同的意見就是說你說現在行政院還沒有核定的版本請法務部這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10900.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10927.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
來提供,我個人認為說基於行政一體法務部事實上是沒有這個身份跟地位來這邊提出他的版本那要不然我可以說法務部你們可以把當初承辦所簽的第一個版本拿出來給我們大家參考一下這個不行,因為他這個對法務部來講,在這邊他所提出到委員會的版本他就應該是就是行政院的版本,他沒有法務部所謂未經過這個行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10930.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10944.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
這個合定的版本由法務部自己先提出的這種權責這個是我這邊所講的第一個問題第二個林氏民委員已經走了林氏民委員剛剛提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10946.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10965.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
因為我這邊提到說,這個大家在這麼多委員跟黨團的提案當中,有一些不確定的法律概念那他提出的理由是說,林士兵委員提出的理由是說本來法律概念就沒有辦法每一個都明確所以有不明確的法律概念也沒有關係,這個說法讓我非常的驚訝、訝異這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10970.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10999.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
所以他剛剛舉的例子是說我所提的這個有關不法關說的這個定義齁這個定義我所看到的都沒有定義啦就是我講過只有主席的這個這個提案說明裡面有指出齁他說所謂不法關說就是只運用其職務或身份地位之實質影響力使該等人員積極作為或消極不作為如果按照這個定義事實上範圍是非常非常的大你運用你的實質影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11001.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11010.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
利用你的職務身份地位實質影響力使該等人沒有提到任何的方法具體的手段但使該等人原為消極作為或 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11012.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11032.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
消極之作為或消極之不作為就叫做不法關說那你在這個法律條裡面定義不法關說的意思就是說那有合法關說有合法關說所以才有不法關說所以說以不正當的方法行關說或請託者這個是林士敏委員的版本那麼就是說有以正當的方法行關說或請託的狀況囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11035.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11047.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以我覺得這個都是我個人認為說有一些不明確的法律概念那再加上這個再加上這個我剛剛所提的有關於這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11051.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11070.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
這裡面有一些罪行相當跟這個各罪之間的這個這個刑度的衡平的問題這個也在各個版本之中也都有不一樣那林氏編委員剛剛說這個已經經過七年了所以這個討論都已經很多了所以不需要再召開公聽會但是我認為如果說我們今天要就這 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11072.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11093.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我們的委員版本在沒有這個行政院版本的情況下就這些委員跟黨團的提案來進行立法的話那我覺得這些條文我覺得今天就以我們這邊在這邊的這些委員大家就這些從立法體系上面的分歧開始討論我個人認為說還是應該召開公聽會讓就這些條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11099.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11123.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
就我們現在手上這些版本召開公聽會讓學者以及司法實務者就現在我們既有的這些條文我們不用管行政院有沒有版本就既有這些條文來進行進一步的這些研討我覺得這樣的立法就我個人做司法法治委員會的一個委員的成員之一我認為這樣子的做法是比較妥當的以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11125.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11144.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好謝謝那待會討論是不是還有人要進行第三輪發言嗎會議詢問一下那個那個招委今天對於會議期程的安排是什麼因為下午我們很多跟本委員會相關的法案要寫上當然我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11145.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11162.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
很多是党变啦但是另外比如说警察人员人事条例啦这些行政院组织法这些都是跟本委会相关可能本委会本委会的委员也会去参与协商所以不知道说召委今天的会议时间的安排是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11162.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11180.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
沒有我們今天會議會一直進行到下午那當然如果說會議的進度怎麼樣我們等一下會看進度的狀況如何去做決定那等一下中午的話當然如果說各黨之間你可以協調一下看有沒有不同的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11181.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11193.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
或是說像那個民眾黨團現在也在嘛或國民黨等一下如果有在的話你可以討論一下看大家對今天議程要走到什麼地步有沒有一個共識出來那我這邊當然都尊重各位的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11201.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11208.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
方案司法公正我相信這個也沒有人會去擋啦但是有一些條文像譬如說我剛從161條161-1那幾個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11215.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11241.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
涉及到你有些條文我贊成的那有些條文的設計我就跟你說是顛覆我對法律的一個認知的那全部都弄在一起到最後就好像是糊弄的那想過的比如說通過的條文我就覺得沒有過可惜哪一些條文我就覺得說沒有去講清楚的也糊弄的這樣一過去那這個也好奇怪啊那是不是可以招待大家來談一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11243.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11249.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
結商一下看看怎麼樣的處理的方式會比較好黃委員是程序發言嗎來 請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11251.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11279.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
第一個剛剛主席問了大家對於今天審法案基本上面的態度跟立場之前這件事情詢答過了等的也夠久了各個委員針對各個條文不同的設計有不同的看法我都尊重我都尊重如果覺得這個條文根本不應該定那就把它否決掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11280.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11300.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
如果應該修就拿出修正動議如果今天不急提出來你要到第二輪黨團協商再提出來也沒有關係審法案基本上面的程序本來就是這個樣子謝謝黃委員所以我說尊重各位委員大家的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11301.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11303.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
大體討論就已經討論完畢程序部分還有意見大體 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11330.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11346.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
那你是不是要來登記如果講的完我們就盡量趕快把它講完嘛就是一次就不需要再進行多次的大體討論多輪的大體討論那就麻煩吳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11355.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11367.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
好謝謝主席我再次來論述一下怎麼樣讓這一次我們在針對妨礙司法公正罪的整個配套都能夠很完整好現在氣保檢討罪161條172-1條大家有提了 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11371.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11395.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪172-2 172-3也有人提了司法官說罪172-5也有委員提了但是這個就是最定義不明的就會在司法官說這一條可能會討論非常多那我一直在講這個湮滅證據罪如果要我認為要一併思考它會對應在第165跟166條那因為現在我們在普遍面對的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11402.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11420.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
現在的現行的犯罪的行為很多都是集團的分工或是組織化那越來越多的這種尤其是我們在說這個大財團好了可能是在環保類的食品安全類的或者是財經金融犯罪類別的 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11421.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11438.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
這些的犯刑其實很多而且很多都是新興的犯罪的樣態那也因為這些是大財團或者是本身的這個影響力比較大的這個犯刑的人 犯罪者那他能夠一手去掌控相關的不法事證 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11439.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11450.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
或者是說一旦被抓了 東窗事發了 被偵辦了那他們又能夠非常容易的去毀滅相關的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11452.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11476.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
然後因為他有能力他可以用各種不正的手段去做這些證據的湮滅或影響這妨礙司法後續偵辦的公正所以這些作為裡頭在這一次大家在條文上裡頭並沒有看到那我也想就教一下就如果說行政院研議中的對於這個部分樣態的湮滅證據罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11478.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11504.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
是不是也有在你們在思考當中的整個chapter裡面更完整的面向好這個部分要請法務部來做一下說明好嗎因為我一直在提像嘉賓委員也一直在提到驗滅證據罪那當然還有另外一個啦可能司法院比較不同意見啊藐視法庭罪我不曉得你們在這個觀點上是怎麼樣我可以就教一下市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11508.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11527.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
跟委員報告有關於這個湮滅政績罪的部分那本部在整個行政院的討論當中的確有就這個湮滅政績有提出一個相關的大家一個共識修法的方向因為我們現在湮滅政績罪我們現行法湮滅的證據必須要是他人的刑事犯罪他人必須要被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11528.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11555.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
就是說他成為被告之後我們湮滅才會構成犯罪那這個罪對於前期有些還沒有成為被告的他人證據我們把湮滅反而不會構成犯罪所以造成一個我們處罰上我們認為這也是個妨礙司法公正的一個行為所以我們在整個修法的建議上我們是比較踩就是說他人行事被告這個被告的這個字眼照紙給他拿掉就是你湮滅他人行事犯罪不管在哪個階段他都應該是妨礙司法公正或者湮滅證據的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11557.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11584.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
這第一個部分第二部分呢關於自己的這個證據呢我們現行實務的見解就是說你使用自己偽造的證據這個是不會構成犯罪的使用自己的你使用別人的當然會你使用自己的偽造的證據反而不會構成犯罪這個其實你使用證據本身是偽造你雖然是你自己你自己的犯罪你來使用它其實也是妨礙了我們司法公正所以這一塊我們也希望就把它也入法化 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11585.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11613.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
所以我們整個這個法案司法公罪章我們的確是在研議的過程當中希望把這個湮滅證據這個罪也把它列入整個罪章的範圍之一謝謝所以我非常同意嘛你現在湮滅證據的課題是他人的案件證據而且是刑事案件存在的前提對於自己湮滅自己的對自己有利的證據沒有就像我剛剛講的很多有能力的而且是這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11614.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11630.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
可能能力更大的財團的犯罪食安環保這些東西就必須有這樣子的條文來處理它所以我再次覺得我只是再次引證我們早上講了整個不要掛一漏萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11631.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11657.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
然後我們也都支持氣保檢討它過去就發生這嚴重的影響了國家的司法威信我想民進黨是民進黨團也都非常支持我們應當來修然後呢在妨礙司法公正的那個部分等一下如果我是覺得還是需要公聽會啦好這個面向實在太多這個問一下次長也覺得蠻尷尬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11660.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11686.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
这个号召大家去包围北检北院这有没有严重的去对于我们的司法人员有非常严重的压力存在不是吗这些东西我们在场这些委员们大家对于妨碍司法公正的很多的面向行为样态都有很多很需要再进一步厘清的而不是只有我们几位修法者 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11687.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11711.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
我們應當擴大更多的相關當事人 尤其是法律界的一些討論所以主席 再次 我不知道說為什麼這個會期每一次 我對您個人沒有意見可是每次在認為 跟您討論法案然後我們認為需要再擴大更多的參與在公聽的時候 您永遠是站在覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11712.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11739.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
比較保留我為改革法案總共開了好幾次也是我們要一直提醒那這個你也可以那你覺得這個案子不需要擴大大家更完善更多元的討論嗎在這邊我看從嘉賓委員也好思堯到發會委員到瑞雄委員我們今天一直在講包括淨宇委員我們都希望能夠有公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11740.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11760.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這個部分您要不要正面的給我們一些回應我會再考慮沒有啦 你不要說我都從來沒有啦沒有我知道啊 也是我們爭取啊所以我就相信您也是認為有必要 您也願意嘛我記得那個公務員改革那個也有對啊 就我都有 都後來有開革命會我們有一個問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11763.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11788.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我們這次在審這些條文的時候我從頭到尾我都一直認為說我們既然在講說這個罪責是不是有相符的時候我們應該有級距在立法的時候應該有一個級距你像譬如說你對於證人鑑定人你去騷擾騷擾我們是三年那我們刑法是恐嚇兩年 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11791.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11815.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
就是說我就會說你會顛覆我的概念就是說本來比較重的你要騷擾你要把它三年那恐後你應該再加一個一年或加個兩年啊那變成說比較輕度的行為的它又變得又比較輕 變得比較重那該重度的行為一修法完以後又變得比較輕那這些是不是要有一個集聚裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11816.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11834.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們每一次都會去修法我們都會去把所有的一個罪責裡面啊那什麼樣的一個法醫的一個侵犯裡面那可能他定出來的刑都會怎麼樣把條文來做比較我一直提的就是這一些我認為張偉你一定懂我在講什麼這個是一個基本啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11835.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11848.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我剛挑戰你的也是一樣啊因為你跟我講國家法律社會法律個人法律我就跟你說我們這幾年都已經顛覆掉了反而你如果真的要講法感的話老百姓在意的是你騙我那麼多錢你要更重 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11850.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11876.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
就變成了連法官現在在量刑都有這樣的一個傾向啦所以是不是我們這一些應該有極具的一個概念把相關的罪責的部分我們新的修法出來以後不要調穩在那邊打架不要到最後變成說我們認為這個行為是比較輕度的反而它的輕度重於它原來的我們要規範的像比如說恐嚇 那個更糟糕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11877.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11889.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
更糟糕更嚴重的他的法定刑變成比較低那新增了條文反正他的行為的強度沒那麼強的他的刑度反而越高我在談的是這個應該有一個比較對照 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11891.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11920.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
謝謝莊委員 莊委員的指教我都有聽到啦謝謝莊委員那我想說到現在我們大體討論已經進行完畢那我們現在開始進行逐條討論但是那個上午的會議截止時間將至那上午會議我們就先進行到此那下午的會議呢我們就提前到一點半開始黃委員有必要休息這麼長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11925.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11953.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
有必要休息這麼長嗎不是啊今天這個妨礙司法公正罪拖了夠久了吧對不起我現在在講話剛剛你講話的時候我有在旁邊摸摸嗎是所以現在是我在發言審發會委員請你尊重我發言你認為你需要休息長一點我尊重嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11954.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11975.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
但我的看法是沒有必要休息這麼長至於說我現在在發言的時候民進黨的立委在我對面無視於我現在正在發言在進行程序上面的干擾我只能夠說我非常的遺憾請主席再思考一下是不是有必要要休息這麼長這是我的看法OK你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11983.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11986.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
黃委員希望說能夠把時間縮短因為剛剛大家沒有意見嘛我們支持您的才是這是我們的意見還是黃委員如果說希望先縮短還是黃委員你有沒有希望說到什麼時間開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12005.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12023.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
主席我們這些我們多數人都支持你的才是耶我們多聽一下大家的想法就像我會聽各位的想法一樣我們都不是大家你們不要這樣子我說了我們都聽大家的想法我們都不是大家不是啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12024.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12038.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我們不要像小孩子一樣在吵架我說了今天我提出來一樣一個時間那我們尊重各位委員的想法那想請教一下黃委員你覺得大概什麼時間開比較好現在11點51分11點51分以中午休息來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12043.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12068.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我想啦一個小時綽綽有餘現在11點51分嘛那休息一個小時又10分鐘我想一般百光百業的人中午休息這樣的時間啊都非常充分了啦所以我建議下午一點就開始開會那請問一下各位就是黃委員希望一點就開始開會不知道各位有沒有意見我們兩點啊你要這樣子我們就兩點啊主席要有點擔當啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12070.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12077.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
黃委員還是說我們時間上面能夠稍微協調一下因為我原本是說1點半那這樣如果1點15大家可不可以接受我覺得大家可以溝通啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12097.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12120.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
你們是希望兩點嘛 對不對那這樣的話還是我們就是維持在一點半的時間就最早的時候溝通洪委員跟洪委員的想法怎麼樣因為我想說這個還是大家都是公平的那個我說明一下主席請我發表意見那我就把我的意見發表了嘛那我的看法是一點開會就可以了沒有必要休息這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12121.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12146.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
其他委員有不同的看法,我也都尊重那您現在是主席,那你怎麼做才是那就依照你才是一個結果好,那這樣齁我們如果不在的話就是兩點半了不要這樣子齁,就是說因為我剛剛說一點半嘛那我也聽完兩邊的意見那這樣的話我想我還是維持一點半那下午我們就盡量加快整個速度不要影響到大家的那個活動好,謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
18150.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
18173.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
我們繼續開會 會議在上午休息前已經結束大力討論開始逐條討論 現在進行逐條討論併案審查中華民國刑法部分修正條文草案繼續進行逐條討論反案性部分修正暨處理一張名八條次序列我們現在先審查排序一第161條 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
18175.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
18176.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
161條有這麼多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
18197.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
18210.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
條文我倒是要來延續著我早上的一個說法就是說你這個依法逮捕或拘禁之人脫逃處三年以下有期徒刑就是說把 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
18212.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
18240.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
原來的現行條文一年以下你去把它做一個提升那我為什麼一直講說這個是一個連動的就是說提升到三倍不是說不可以但是說你要把它去做一個加重的時候那其他的條文其實很多都是連動你像譬如說我們現在在談工人泄密我就這樣講就好了你像譬如說我現在是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
18243.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
18267.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
依法逮捕之人或拘禁之人那旁邊去幫助他或者說有人去洩密公務人員去洩密那有時候常常涉及到有共犯的一個問題那你單純就從被逮捕跟拘禁的人脫逃一年然後把他提升到三倍這個理由到底是 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
18269.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
18295.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
真正的含義是什麼啦我們當然看到整個立法理由裡面去只是單純的去提到說日本的刑法是現在那也是提高刑度到三年以下那去做這樣一個比較的時候是不是這是這是唯一的是說日本這樣規定那我們也要這樣的去做一個規定否則一下子提升三倍他的理由到底是什麼這個請法務部這個地方是不是可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
18296.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
18306.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
再做一個說明好不好我光這個三連這個部分因為很多條文涉及到連動你這個罪責去把它提升到三杯最主要的理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
18309.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
18337.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
好 聽法務部說明顧委員報告那最主要理由當然是這個是跟設計上是跟後面還有拒保檢討罪做一些聯動因為拒保檢討罪的話的刑度那在如果我們脫逃罪沒有跟著修的話他會一年以下就會失衡這第一點第二點當然是早上也有跟委員報告的他是認為就是說他畢竟他是侵犯的是跟拒保檢討罪侵犯的是國家的法義嘛國家的司法公正嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
18338.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
18365.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
所以那部分多處一年以下的話可能會行者會相較之下會失衡所以連動的在這脫逃罪的部分也並同的把它提高到三年以下有期徒刑好 那還有哪一位委員有好 宋少偉其實主席我們在看這些條文現行條文脫逃罪它有第二項還有其實還有第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
18367.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
18392.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那這個第三項其實大家好像不是比較大家關注的聚眾以強暴脅迫犯第一項之罪者就是不曉得理解上是不是要結球就是第一項依法逮捕拘禁之人脫逃他會有這樣的一個刑責但是第三項認為如果是其他人以比如說像那一天在北院的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
18393.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
18420.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
那如果說你那天在北院的情況那麼被告他是依法逮捕的人那如果說是第三項那聚眾以強暴脅迫或在場注視的人都有他的刑責我是覺得這原來的脫逃罪的設計重點是在於這前三項當中強調的是依法逮捕拘禁的人你脫逃然後第三項如果你是在旁邊譬如在 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
18422.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
18448.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
情境上很像我們這兩週在台北地院看到的情況但是呢如果我們看到其他的條文啊這個其實民眾黨黨團呢他其實跟我們原文他只是把刑期做調整這是第一個不同待會我是不是可以請次長一一的來說明你們法務部對這些條文的邊的看法民眾黨黨團呢他其實他在後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
18450.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
18468.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
後面的16條之一它反而是有另外的規定那我還是先就161條來講那民眾黨團它只是就原文上把刑期加重但是所謂的棄保潛逃的事情呢在民眾黨團的161項內呢其實並沒有對於棄保 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
18472.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
18495.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
有保這個事情並沒有去描述遣逃逃怎麼去認定那遣又怎麼認定上午法務部的次長的指教我也覺得很好你要有三個條件嘛對不對那以他來講棄保遣逃大概有三個條件你必須是被拒保出來的第二個你要逃那什麼情況下逃 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
18496.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
18508.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
我沒有回來就到逃嗎 不是啊 發布通緝才能確定你是逃啊不然你可能只是就拒保之後叫你要出現 你沒有出現 還不到逃嘛可能要通緝 發布通緝才算逃然後呢 要潛 要隱匿行蹤 或者逃亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
18514.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
18532.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
但是我們看一下另外有羅委員的提案他這裡是把161條加上了什麼被告受拒保責付限制駐居限制出境或限制出海而經合法傳喚無正當理由而不到者經發布通緝者一同後面就這句話最重要了 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
18534.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
18558.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
前面呢是以被告為對象被告在接受後面的這幾項處分之後還要經合法傳喚喔無證當理由喔那不到場喔三個條件喔好 那麼之後呢發佈通緝者一同會被發佈通緝的不是只有被告啊證人傳喚不到也會被發佈通緝啊早上提到的橘子是不是他不是被告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
18560.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
18588.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我不知道他是不是被告因為我沒有叫他傳票我不知道他是不是被告待會次長也可以說明一下我們就具體的案例我們來看一下這樣的條文設計如何但是我們看一下其他的像謝一峰委員的版本他也是上面寫被告然後後面是寫今發布通緝者異同好那另外林委員的版本他跟原條文一樣依法逮捕拘禁是脫逃者他是依法逮捕拘禁 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
18589.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
18618.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
但是獲經命拒保等等等這些那後者就不限定是被告啦而且後者包含的內容他不見得有被簽署的逮捕拘禁嘛所以前面他不能說已經被逮捕拘禁才脫逃的才脫逃的跟呢只要你有經過要求經命拒保責付限制駐居限制出境或限制出海之逃亡常逆者好這裡還有說逃亡常逆 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
18620.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
18634.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
這個用詞啊又跟這個經合法傳喚無證當裡有不到呢又不一樣了因為逃亡藏匿呢它是一個外觀上逃亡藏匿逃亡藏匿那這個呢用詞上 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
18635.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
18656.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
我還是希望說法務部能夠提供實務上的一些見解因為這些條文的文字有這些差異那就我們在審查法案的時候它的立法上它到底會產生什麼樣的變化那陳文我們上午包括莊委員提到的有些人他其實他是被告但他自己不知道被告那傳喚不到 未到庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
18657.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
18681.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
他可能就被發布通緝那他可能符合被告然後被發布通緝但是有人像橘子他可能是傳喚要當證人屢傳不到那就發布通緝那又或者說104名委員的版本他是要逮捕後脫逃的才算但是他這裡的金命巨寶等等這些情況但是又要有逃亡隱匿者 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
18683.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
18711.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
他要達成到逃亡隱匿才構成他這個所謂的嚴格來講這個我們所說的棄保潛逃不完整因為棄保潛逃只是其中一個樣態證人傳喚不到潛逃也算那被逮捕了脫逃的也算被告也算那還有一種上午不知道有沒有提過這種情況這個抱歉次長我的問題比較多這些樣態比較多比如說宣判 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
18712.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
18740.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
宣判都是未到庭那有可能未到庭該被告的宣判案件未到庭可能呢沒事但是因為未到庭啊那萬一也被未到庭可不可以到達要通緝的地步這個我不清楚這個實務上呢我們在場有很多實務界的先進可不可以指教一下單單161條每個委員的版本就有跟原條文161條有些不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
18741.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
18750.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那其實呢如果是就我看到的民眾黨團呢他其實是把前面幾個委員他們放在一六一條修正內容放在之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
18751.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
18777.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
他第一條161還是原來的脫逃罪但是他161條之一是經檢察官或法官拒保沒有講被告只要是檢察官或法官拒保或者是責負或者是限制駐居或限制出境或出海之被告後面被告我放在這裡了你看所以我們讀這個條文要很小心那原來他161條之一還是指限定在被告的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
18778.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
18801.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
但是有的他沒有限定在被告有的限定在被告有的是被告放在前面有的是被告放在後面有的是要求要怎樣要有逃亡常例大概這種情況以上這些樣態條文的差異是否我們法務部能夠救你們食物機關或者說在場我們有豐沛的食物經驗的人士可以告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
18801.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
18816.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
不然的話在我們看來今天很關心的妨礙司法公正都在談所謂的棄保潛逃好像妨礙司法公正就只有棄保潛逃那其實我們修的這一個條文161條它基本上是規範在 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
18817.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
18831.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
脫逃還有聚眾強暴來協助脫逃原來是規定在這裡現在所謂的氣泡潛逃其實不在這161我相信也是大家修法的目的啦但是呢樣態這麼多可不可以逐一的讓我們來了解一下謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
18835.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
18860.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
是不是一併講完同一個條你再給他來做一個回答也好那我稍微我再延續一下就是說我是明白的表達我反對161條這樣的一個修法這樣的一個修法其實我都是從整個體系裡面去講本來你脫逃罪是一年以下有企圖刑那你重放的人是三倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
18861.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
18876.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那你現在把自己脫逃的部分把它提高三倍那原來我們認為罪質應該是比他強三倍的去重方的我們又不懂這個邏輯是什麼我就不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
18877.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
18900.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
你脫逃罪章你第八章裡面你說161 162一直到163涉及到公務人員我們其他的條文都不動你就把單純的依法逮捕拘禁脫逃人本來是一年以下有期徒刑那你把它提升了三倍那好 那我原來去抓到了我去把那個人把他給縱放掉的是三年以下的 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
18901.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
18930.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那你原來本來挑你的設計是說我比這個最比原來自行脫逃的人還高三倍啊那自行脫逃的人你說那個比較比較符合人性就是說他被抓到了他不想被繩子以法他跑掉了他說你這也很可惡所以一年那如果是你去把他給縱放的你說這個更可惡都已經在公權力機關的範圍底下了你去把他放掉所以乘以三罰三倍那你如果自行脫逃的是一乘以三 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
18931.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
18941.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那你去縱放的原來是他的三倍的你又保持不動這個我是覺得我百思不得其解的地方這第一個那第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
18943.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
18971.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
剛剛那個通緝的部分被告才有通緝的問題那另外就是許子那個是因為有後來好像有一個罪名一個罪名偵查才會有這樣的問題那另外的就是說你本來是在公權力的掌握之下已經逮捕的人你跑掉了是一年那如果你現在去增加拒保 責負 限制自居還有限制出海 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
18972.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
18995.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
的這個部分那這些人不在公權力範圍的依法逮捕就是我已經逮捕你了我提高三倍因為你藐視我嘛你就已經被我抓了被我公權力機關抓了你還跑掉我就處理把你三年好那你現在把這些不是在公權力的掌握範圍的你也把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
18996.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
19011.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
突然把他說那你也是一樣都是三年那這個有沒有符合橫貧的一個原理我請那個次長這邊也法務部這邊也一併做一個說明謝謝好 謝謝那還有其他委員要提出問題嗎那沒有的話麻煩次長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
19015.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
19044.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
跟委員報告就是說我們這個棄保潛逃罪到底要擺在脫逃罪章還是另外成立一個獨立的一個妨礙司法公正罪章那我們的見解是這樣脫逃罪他本來我們刑法裡面就脫逃罪章他是在處理這一個你依托物理性的一個拘禁作用的一個行為他基本上他是有被依法拘禁逮捕之人他依托這個物理性的機器行為所以他有獨立一個罪章叫做脫逃罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
19045.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
19071.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那至於棄保潛逃罪它並不是這種行為太樣它基本上侵害的是國家的司法公正所以說有委員也獨立另外一個罪章去處理這一個棄保潛逃罪那我們修法的建議也比較贊成就是說另外就這一個法案司法公正的部分另外不要在這個脫逃罪章裡面去處理因為它規範的目的不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
19072.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
19098.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
它規範目的不一樣這第一點跟各位委員報告那倒是這個它的刑責的部分那刑責的部分當然尊重大院的決定那的確會有剛剛我們委員所提到的我們的這個依法逮捕脫逃之人如果把他提高刑責到三年的話縱放的人或便利脫逃人你沒有跟著聯動把他刑責提高的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
19099.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
19123.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
純粹從我們原來法例的這個安排來上的確會有一些失衡的狀態因為原來是一年三年嘛那現在變成三年你如果縱放人沒有跟著提高的話的確法例在原來的安排上它是失衡的所以刑責如果161要連動要提高162要不要跟著提高本部也尊重這樣子的一個規定那當然剛委員有提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
19125.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
19134.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
脫逃罪處三年以下跟我們妨礙司法公正罪一樣處三年以下這到底法律上有沒有橫頻 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
19135.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
19164.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
有沒有橫頻啊那這個還是涉及到一個這個刑責的選擇嘛刑責選擇就是說那基本上我們認為就是說這兩個罪他基本上都是妨害司法公正那脫罩罪他又另外再多了一個其實他已經現實侵害了這個物理性的一個激進作用所以說這一個兩個我們在立法院在行政院討論的時候的確是把它做一個相同刑責處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
19165.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
19191.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
但是的確會有剛剛委員所提到的就是說這兩種太陽也許不一樣為什麼刑責處相同那這個刑責部分那本部呢這邊也尊重大院的決定那剛剛我們宗家兵中委員提到就是的確我們現在發布通緝的不可能是證人一定是被告他才有可能會發布通緝所以證人基本上他們不會有棄保潛牢的問題一定是被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
19192.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
19197.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
他才有可能被發布通緝他才會有逃亡藏匿的問題證人沒有逃亡藏匿的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
19207.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
19229.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
黃委員你有沒有看過呢我就覺得161我的看法就是說161跟162整個脫逃罪障那個是連動你不可能就只修一個161然後它變成把你161如果說你說脫逃了你要把它刑度做一個提升你不可能162沒有去做處理吧這個法務部這邊這個很簡單的ABC嘛唉 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
19237.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
19264.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
我可以講話了嗎第一個脫逃罪161當初為什麼刑推要往上拉法定刑太低第二個161跟162兩者之間的很平關係我可以理解莊瑞雄委員你的考慮但他基本上在處理的法例是在確保有關於國家未來的司法程序跟刑罰權 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
19266.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
19289.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
的保障確保國家的刑法權可以被公正的行事這個是法義你不管自己跑還是協助幫忙跑你所親愛的法義是一樣的所以我法務部你們自己也很清楚在日本的刑法裡面兩種太陽都是三年以下有期徒刑你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
19290.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
19316.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
有做過修法研究的你要清楚的跟各個委員講當初為什麼只有動161沒有動162理由就在這裡他所侵害的法律是統一不管是你自己跑還是放掉幫他跑你侵害的再保護的是什麼都是國家刑法權的公正行使所以法定刑為什麼會定的一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
19317.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
19346.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
日本的立法者也不是笨蛋為什麼立法者會把他刑都變成一樣都是三年以下有期徒刑這些事情你們在當初2019年提出你們的一些相關修法的意見跟版本的時候該做的研究都做過了否則法務部裡面去設有關於刑法的研修小組是在幹什麼的法務部裡面設刑法研修小組不就是在做這些最基本的事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
19351.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
19379.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
那不然法務部的那些刑法研修小組會都白開的喔各個不同的委員有自己的立法政策跟立場容我再說明一次我都尊重我都尊重專委員有專委員的看法我也尊重專委員可能覺得說162那種太陽在他心中那個秤要罰得更重一點這個我尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
19380.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
19402.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
但是我是代表台灣民眾黨黨產的立場我們是在2024年的3月就已經提案了我當初2024年3月的時候不是把其他委員的提案拿來拼在一起沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
19405.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
19434.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
第二個現在針對161我的態度很簡單嘛有人認為要加重有人認為沒有要加重沒有辦法有共識沒有辦法有共識就保留啊那不然我們要一直留在這個條文裡面打轉嗎當初車賽者保護法的時候我們一樣很尊重民進黨的委員啊有意見就保留啊意識上面不就是這樣處理嗎這個是我的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
19440.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
19455.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
謝謝剛剛有司法實務經驗的先進所提出的這些解釋事宜那我這裡還是要繼續的就這個因為有不同的版本所以我們還是要花比較多的時間在不同版本當中去求取比較妥適的立法內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
19456.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
19485.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那我們看到羅志強委員呢他的第161條的修正他在第一項的後段呢說經發布通緝者一同那麼謝英文委員的版本也是如此那他們兩個的版本的內容看起來大致相同啊但是他們最後一項呢有加上逃逆被告那逃逆這個字呢在我們林思敏委員的版本當中呢他是把它限定在逃亡藏匿者就分成兩個啦一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
19486.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
19510.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
依法逮捕拘禁的脫逃者或者經過那些處分之逃亡藏匿者那麼我想逃亡藏匿跟逃逆應該是指同一個意思他有一定成就的要件那在這三個版本當中都有提到逃亡藏匿或逃逆那這當中差別是經發布通緝者跟沒有這樣的文字第一個差別是什麼比如說在我聽起來剛剛說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
19512.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
19539.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
被告他不見得有經過上面的處分那就直接發布通緝的那這種情況也算但是如果以林氏民委的版本當中他這裡面呢就並沒有有一個所謂的發布通緝的一個前置的一個處分所以我們不曉得他這裡的直接從那些內容上就直接跳到逃亡藏匿那他到底要哪些要哪些條件才能開始起算那因為這牽涉到呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
19541.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
19567.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
民眾黨黨團他的六一之一他是強調的是被告但他這個被告看他的內容他也沒有說要有逃逆或逃亡藏匿所以這不同的版本之間他們當我們對照次長上午在說的說他這個棄保潛逃他必須要有發布通緝或者今發布通緝就算了就達到了還是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
19569.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
19596.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
還有有一個逃亡或隱匿這樣的舉證要由必須由檢察機關來表達那才能構成了這個棄保險逃的要件可是這個要件如果沒有在條文中表示譬如說以民主黨黨團的161之1他就沒有說逃逆或逃荒隱匿啊但是其他委員的版本不管是羅志強的啦還是謝依鳳的啦他們都有講到逃逆啊逃逆被告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
19597.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
19617.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
那另外呢林思敏呢是說逃亡藏匿沒有提到發布通緝的所以發布通緝的就不在此限囉所以這些條文所呈現出來的含色範圍都不一樣所以我們很想知道說法務部你們作為檢察機關你們在面對這麼多的不同的刑事案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
19617.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
19643.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那什麼樣的樣態是我們這個本條文的核心的打擊對象那哪些其實在實務經驗上可能那個被告完全沒有這樣的意識只是說因為外觀的形式的要件上達成了就有可能被發布通緝後就被認定是棄保潛逃就要用這個罪來克以他的刑責這是我們在上午到現在大家所關切的換言之觸犯了類似的 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
19643.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
19664.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
脫逃罪那加上我們用氣保潛逃來給他規範之後呢有那麼多樣態的犯罪行為或者那麼樣態的情境那哪些是我們具體要打擊的那這要打擊的對象是否現在的條文當中是否完備那又或者說如果條文上沒有明確的去界定會不會殃及持於對於那些在我們日常生活當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
19665.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
19694.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
他只是對於法律的嘗試或對於法院的這些傳喚的手續他未能去理解去遵循就可能糊裡糊塗的被發布通緝後就被認為是棄保潛逃就是發布通緝後可能或者有什麼其他程序就被因此而刻上這個刑責這是本席希望能夠從法務部這邊來了解到的黃委員剛中委員有先舉手中委員你剛是不是有要表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
19696.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
19708.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
我還是要表達啦拖拿罪到底是不是妨害司法我都有一個疑問你說自己去跑掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
19710.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
19729.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這個還站在被告的立場你叫我去解釋我還是覺得有一點符合人性那如果說被逮捕的那全部都是這個是妨礙整個司法的公正或者說妨礙整個司法那所有出犯刑法的全部都是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
19730.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
19744.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我們只要有罪行法定的全部規範在有罪責的有處罰的那你敢來犯那好像就是對一個國家法醫的一個挑釁對司法的一個侵害所以單純在講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
19748.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
19766.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
依法被逮捕或拘禁的人你脫逃這個叫做妨害司法這個是比較難說服我啦我還是會回到說整個最值得一個做提升啊應該是全盤的去做一個考量啦或者你這樣子去做一個倉促的話沒有去做一個各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
19769.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
19792.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
刑法的罪章或者應該這個部分會有處罰到的只有在刑法裡面有規範那你刑法整個規範三百多條裡面你那一些的一個罪責裡面你沒有去做一個對照的話你很難去解釋說這個你把它提升上來因為可能大家就覺得說這個就很可惡啊那你為什麼也把它你都已經被逮捕了你還跑掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
19793.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
19822.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那更讓我覺得更質疑的是你當然台灣民眾黨他是放在161條之一他也認為那個很可惡這個都可以討論台灣民眾黨是認為說金獎官命拒保或者責負限制秩序的部分這個也都把他提升到這個三年以下有期徒刑那在國民黨羅志強委員謝一鳳委員他們是在第161條你去增列到整個在第一項的後面後段要去增列 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
19823.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
19840.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
也就是說掌握在本來就是在公權力掌握之下的人就跑掉的跟本來沒有在公權力掌握之下的這個罪質是不是有相同這個新增的部分確實是要好好的去做一個討論以上黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
19848.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
19862.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
剛剛那個鍾嘉斌委員指教說台灣民眾黨黨團的提案沒有逃亡或藏匿沒有這樣子的一個行為太樣我基本上做的建議是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
19864.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
19893.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
如果要看各個黨黨或各個委員不同的提案法條的文字要看清楚行事訴訟法要有基本的理解我為什麼這樣講我們寫的是經發布通緝什麼時候會被發布通緝會被發布通緝的前提就是有逃亡或藏匿行事訴訟法寫得非常清楚沒有逃亡或藏匿怎麼會有發布通緝的事情怎麼會有發布通緝的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
19895.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
19922.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
整個法條上面的設計就是這個樣子你如果只看法條的亂文生義的話你很容易會出現很嚴重的誤會甚至鬧出笑話我還是回來了我們現在是在處條嘛如果是在處條的話我是建議是不是一條一條來我們剛剛在處理的是161 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
19924.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
19940.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
對嘛 那針對1161其實就兩個問題嘛第一個問題就脫逃罪的部分法定刑要不要往上拉大家有不同的看法第二個在脫逃罪161這個法條本身它所要承載的規範能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
19943.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
19956.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
是就處理脫陶就好了其他的其他的太陽我們是不是在161之一再來處理繞了半天從頭到尾就只有在講這兩個問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
19958.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
19983.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我應該是沒歸於那錯啦第一個法定型要不要提高專委員有不同的看法我都尊重剛剛我已經說了嘛我也沒有說專委員的看法一定不對也沒有人規定說台灣在法定型的界定上面一定要跟著日本走沒有這回事啊台灣的立法者本來就台灣的立法者可以做出台灣立法者的決斷啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
19985.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
19993.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
那所以我才說161兩個問題第一個法定性要不要提高第二個在規範的模式上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
19994.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
20023.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
除了本來典型的脫逃罪以外其他跟棄保潛逃有關係的事情是要規範在161還是要規範在161之一大概在處理的就這兩件事嘛那我是不是具體建議大家沒共識就保留繼續往下走那要不然一樣的問題在這邊繞繞繞繞繞那是要繞到什麼時候講來講去也講不出什麼新的東西只是在拖延而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
20028.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
20048.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
主席要評論我們的發言我補充一個東西 司法實務上面 我可能補充一下我們還沒聽到法務部的意見沒關係 我也順便補充給法務部的次長聽因為次長是我以前的檢方指導老師其實訴訟法84條 發布通緝本來就是認為被告有逃亡或藏匿這是訴訟法84條規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
20050.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
20065.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
所以我們如果再去論斷說到底有沒有逃亡或藏匿那這樣是不是意思就是說我們的通緝發布都違背刑事訴訟法8.4條這是第一個那第二個就是說現行我國的通緝其實是非常的嚴謹實務上面的狀況我跟各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
20066.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
20093.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
第一個必須檢察官有經過正式的傳喚以及掛號的傳喚以及拘提他必須做完這三個動作之後而且都是合法他才有可能去簽請通緝而且這個簽請通緝必須要主任檢察官相約以及檢察長同意才可以發布通緝所以基本上這是一個很嚴謹的流程並不是說像剛剛大家講的好像是通緝是一件很隨便事因為這個是檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
20095.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
20100.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
沒有我在說明目前檢查實務上面的做法所以我說這是目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
20104.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
20132.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
沒有啦 我沒有批評任何人啦我只是說這是目前檢查實務的做法所以第一個就有逃亡或藏匿這大家可以參考一下刑事訴訟法84條那第二個就是說到底實務怎麼簽請通緝這東西非常的嚴謹這個我想說次長也一定很清楚次長也是檢察官出身的那我剛剛講的程序就是目前我國通緝發布前的要求好 謝謝主席我可不可以翻譯 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
20134.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
20160.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我非常感謝啦因為呢 剛剛我就有說到了嘛因為在場有很多有司法實務的嘛不管是擔任檢察官還是擔任律師嘛但是呢 我們很清楚啊立法院的立法委員未必都擔任過檢察或律師或擔任過法官我們的扮演的角色就是從一般人民的法感他們去理解生活當中會遇到的各種樣態希望法律條文在制定的時候能夠兼顧到人民的生活的各種樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
20161.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
20189.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
那當然我對於主席因為應該說是檢察官前檢察官吳前檢察官我對於您的司法實務我非常敬重但是我也非常懇切的希望聽到您的指導老師那個黃次長的說法畢竟我一直很期待法務部相對之下他對於實務上的見解應該有更周延或更完整的說明那其實很可惜黃委員通常講完話就離開了那其實我們要說明的是今天在程序上的處理因為目前如果說一條一條處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
20190.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
20192.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
1611字條161字這些條文內容再有三個版本它含設的範圍是包括民眾黨團本的161跟161之一嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
20201.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
20222.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
所以程序上我們看到了羅志強委員的版本 羅志強委員也先離席了我們看到了謝一鋒委員的版本 我們看到了林思敏委員的版本他們這些版本的內容 它所涵蓋的範圍恰恰就是台灣民眾黨團的161跟161之一只是說民眾黨團它161它是根據人的脫逃罪 它就把刑責加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
20223.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
20247.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
但是他把一些要件規範在161-1而其他委員的版本呢把它通通放在同一個條文裡面所以如果主席真的認真要講的話我們在對法條的處理上其實我剛剛是不便去建議這應該是民眾黨黨團的161-1跟161並我們其他委員的161條共同來討論這樣才能還倍啊不然的話我們如果通過了其他委員或其他委員的161條那回過頭來還要再處理民眾黨團的161-1嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
20252.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
20279.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
這邊呢 如果說正在從檢查實務 我絕對尊重我們的吳釗偉但是我們現在談法條的研修 法條的研擬未必就是以擔任過司法官 擔任過檢察官 擔任過律師的討論的內容就能夠代表我們整個委員會的共同意見那我現在希望呢 主席啊還是可以讓我們不斷的請求發言之後 希望得到法務部的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
20281.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
20303.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
主管機關的相對意見而不是我們委員都發言完了 主席要加注 平注您的那些意見我相信待會次長也可以說得出來好 沒問題 那就來 麻煩請那莊委員我再一併把它說明完 再來聽次長的說明因為我覺得次長也很敢針對問題去講但是今天這個條文裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
20307.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
20333.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
我倒覺得大家可以好好去仔細去想一想為什麼一個條文你說這個從二十幾年這九十年過去到現在一九三四年那倒沒有修過這一條的一個原因到底是什麼我一直在思考這樣的一個問題你像譬如說我們刑法裡面其實它有類似的一個概念你說在一百六十四條或者一百六十五條 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
20334.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
20352.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
湮滅刑事證據的部分你說因為第三人去藏匿你或者說去湮滅事證這個會過程罪責我們自己的話又沒有又沒有那也就是說那如果說我自行的自己自行去藏匿那就不是一個被處罰的一個對象那脫逃罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
20356.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
20370.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
之所以一年以下 我再猜 我再猜可能就是這個原因就是他的期待可能性本來就會比較低啦所以涉及到你去逮捕拘禁拖導人才會有比較低刑度這樣的一個安排設計嘛很合理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
20373.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
20393.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
這樣講應該很合理吧 不然你很難去想像說你原來是在一年以下的一個有期徒刑那你其他的縱放的部分變成是三年以下的有期徒刑那你如果再去比較164跟165煙霉刑事證據的話那似乎就可以找到這樣的一個道理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
20394.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
20420.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那在台灣民眾黨跟羅志強委員你們在那個161新增的一個後段的一個部分同樣也會碰到這樣的一個問題你在脫逃跟棄保潛逃的人犯罪嫌疑裡面你還在偵查跟審判當中你還沒有受到有罪的一個確定判決所以你就無從去有涉犯到罪行本領三年以上有期徒刑這樣的一個要件所以你整個這樣去把它思考下來的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
20421.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
20438.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
也就是說原先的立法者那樣的一個設計我到現在我還不因為說時間過去了90年了覺得它是錯的反而我們現在貿然去把它全部都做一個提升的話這個我才會覺得說很難去來做一個說服事實上我們跟前面一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
20446.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
20452.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
我這樣講合理吧 怎麼去說理啊 你要把它提高我沒有意見我是說這個條文的整個安排裡面你們會互相打架我處理你 你回家我就幫你忙就好啊我就不要叫你處長啊 我說 欸 阿嬤姓的創意你在那裡詢問的時候 你這些都沒說是怎麼那些本地是一年以下提供到三年 其他的沒有放上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
20471.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
20491.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
那我再把你說那顏面刑事證據罪的時候我來跟你來做比較的話我們就會覺得說原來當初這樣的設計是符合人性的符合那個期待可能性的自己造的嘛 一年嘛你現在把它創成變三年這個反而我覺得這個條文當初的一個設計喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
20493.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
20510.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
這個不要因為日本亂改 我們就跟著這樣亂改脫逃罪設計上一年以下 符合人性 那個期待可能性本來就是低然後你涉及到逮捕基金的脫逃罪 刑度這樣的一個設計我反而覺得這樣才是合理啊我不曉得次長你的看法是怎麼樣好 那這部分麻煩次長能夠說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
20516.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
20531.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
好跟幾位委員報告了那幾位委員的條文裡面有涉及到過程要件的設計上有一個發布通緝這個過程要件沒有錯發布通緝按照刑事訴發四條規定前提是被告逃亡跟藏匿但是就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
20532.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
20561.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
他另外逃亡藏匿之後另外要有一個檢查行政的一個發布程序這個檢查程序的問題如果說犯罪構成要件細於檢查程序是否發布這個通緝令而決定這個人是否成立犯罪的話這會影響同樣有逃亡藏匿的事實但不同的檢察官他也許他的檢查行政程序快慢會影響這個人是否構成脫逃罪或是否構成妨礙司法公正罪所以我們比較建議是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
20564.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
20582.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
這個條文的構成要件不要以是否發布通緝令這一個行政措施來作為它的構成要件而以這被告的客觀行為是否有逃亡跟藏匿這個事實來當作它是否構成脫逃罪跟這一個法案司法公正罪的相關的規定這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
20583.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
20609.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
第二點剛剛我們委員有提到的就是說羅委員跟謝委員都有一個重罪脫逃是否要加重的規定的確沒有錯會如委員所講的本罪跟脫逃罪它畢竟是兩個不同的罪而且是不同的審理主體審判者在進行審理你也許本罪的進行速度是比較慢的脫逃罪已經判決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
20610.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
20627.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
他如何認定他本罪是不是所犯是重罪或三年以上的罪當脫逃罪判的時候本罪根本還沒判他要不要加重如果不加重搞不好又上訴甚至脫逃罪確定之後又反覆的提起再審反覆的循環 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
20629.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
20645.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
所以你用本罪的重罪來決定他是否脫逃罪的加重就會我剛剛講的這個法律上的問題那剛剛我們也一直非常在意的就是說那脫逃罪自我脫逃的部分他刑責比較輕的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
20646.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
20673.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
在我們原來脫逃罪161跟162的架構上他的確他兩個刑度是不一樣他的確是當時在立法設計上他是涉及到一個自我脫逃者他一個期待可能性比較低所以他在刑責的設計上我現在講原來161跟163所以原來的刑責他是一年以下那縱放的人是三年以下他的確是一個期待可能性的一個考量以上補充 謝謝黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
20677.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
20699.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
我具體建議齁剛剛那個市長啊表達法律見解非常的好我具體建議啊法務部有什麼建議條文就拿出來就把建議條文拿出來嘛坐在那邊空口說白話尊重你們的看法把你們建議條文拿出來啊連建議條文都拿不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
20703.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
20720.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
這個我倒認同你坐在那邊在評論各個黨團的提案非常好啊非常好啊你法務部坐在那邊評論各個黨團各個委員的提案很好啊我是有一個最簡單的要求你條文拿出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
20722.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
20734.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
你如果條文拿不出來你如果條文拿不出來那沒有辦法啦立法院沒辦法再等你的啦我再說一次等得夠久了等好幾年了啦等好幾年了啦法務部可以混成這樣喔沒有必要繼續等你們啦我具體建議喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
20746.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
20752.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
161 161-1保留繼續往下走不要在這邊繼續在那邊虛耗時間了我具體建議161 161-1保留繼續往下走請主席採決當黃委員提出來大家都有聽到那就請從召位 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
20768.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
20781.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
主席我想司法法制委員會大家合意大家充分討論講完話就離開然後回來又說大家在延宕討論那要馬上就處理我是覺得大家充分討論難道不是我們委員會應該做的責任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
20783.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
20803.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
那為什麼老師都認為只要別人講話就是拖延時間至於講話就是大小聲我先不評論這種情緒性的發言我還是回到版本這邊因為這裡面還涉及到體力的問題明明民眾黨團的版本他們把161跟161之一別人用161表達的他拆分成兩條 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
20805.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
20826.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
所以當我們在審視整個條文對照表的時候我們很用心的去把它做對照之後發現有這個體力上的差異然後然後這裡還有什麼差異呢我們看到民眾黨團呢他們待會如果這一條不管怎麼處理假設待會往前推進還有第十章之一妨礙司法公正罪那這第十章之一放在哪裡呢放在161條跟161之一中間啊就是說這個脫逃罪呢這個他們認定呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
20832.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
20841.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
不是妨礙司法公正但是如果有161條之一的行為就是妨礙司法公正這是我從體力上我去理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
20843.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
20870.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
民眾黨團版本它的設計但是我們仔細看一下刑法當中我們現在講的脫逃罪是第八章到161到163是脫逃罪到了第九章 藏匿人犯及殷滅證據罪這是164條再往下走到167條第十章是未證及誣告罪然後第十章之一原來就要插在後面的第十章之後在公共危險罪之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
20871.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
20889.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那公共危險罪是從173條開始啊那我們現在161條後面就跑出一個妨礙司法公正罪然後再來是161條之一那我真的因為真的我不是大學不是法律課班學習的我真的有點不能疑惑說如果我是一個一般的人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
20890.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
20916.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
我有一般的良好的教育的授訓那我來看這個條文多數的人應該是像我們這樣子啊很少大概沒什麼機會上法院嘛但是開始遇到要上法院了很緊張啊趕快去買一本六法全書來翻一翻啊就開始在理解說欸那我到底可能觸犯什麼罪呢好啦那我們來繼續看為什麼這些委員的版本有這些差別盧委員有兩個版本盧委員的版本呢他基本上呢他是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
20918.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
20939.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
對不起啊 它是161條 它沒有看到它有具體的要另訂一個妨礙司法公正罪但是呢 它在另外一個版本當中呢 有有第37章妨礙司法公正罪 後面才跑出364條那我先姑且不論 因為前面羅遠的兩個版本目前在161條的脫逃罪當中 它是一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
20939.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
20961.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
那後面妨礙司法公正是另外一個版本但是我們其他的委員洪孟凱的委員他並沒有妨礙司法公正的這個設計謝一鳳委員也沒有妨礙司法公正的設計但是林思敏委員有他的設計是什麼他在第十章之一也是妨礙司法公正但是他就直接從第161條開始算 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
20963.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
20984.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
他從161條開始整個後面他認為是妨礙司法公正張明就這樣寫啊結果第十章之一呢會取代我們脫逃罪嗎我真的也不能理解了那至於呢抱歉啊 昭偉主席啊您呢也是有一個妨礙司法公正的罪章在第十章之一但是呢你後面的條文呢是從172條之一開始起算 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
20985.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
21012.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那172條我們看看172條的確是第十章未證據誣告罪所以呢您的確是不愧是專業訓練的您的妨害司法公正罪是緊接在第十章之後172條之後您增列了一個172條之一前面加個第十章之一的章名看起來目前各個版本當中就我這樣的去研讀就是您的體力上最清楚最完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
21012.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
21028.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
但是你的體力當中其實你的一七二之一不是所謂的棄保潛逃所以我們講到棄保潛逃我們都認為他是妨礙司法公正但是各個委員司法公正的版本當中第十章之一是排在第十章的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
21029.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
21050.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
委政及誣告罪之後所以我真的是不懂因為真的畢竟我沒有受過純粹的大學科班的法律訓練我跟一般的國民我們拿到一個立法權書我們去翻讀刑法的內容之後我們會有這個疑惑所以今天我們當我們在談161條的時候有這麼多的版本含釋的範圍有的被拆分在兩條有的甚至拆分在兩章 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
21051.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
21074.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
一個是在脫逃罪當中一個是跳到第十章之一那這個第十章之一又夾雜在161條跟161之一當中那161之後又有另外兩個章節所以我不曉得這個法條剛剛莊委員一早就說了莊委員一早就說我們這樣的立法的一個品質未來一般國民他怎麼去理解去解讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
21075.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
21101.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
不要我們這邊認真的詳細的要完備法令就說在拖延時間或許我想法學專業我想在座很多高深見解的人我希望能夠解惑啊用一般國民的法感一般國民對文字對法條的理解跟掌握能力我們看到這些版本讓我有一些問號或許呢這個問號根本不存在或許法學專家馬上說啊這個很正常啊我們立法就會這樣子啊那是不是能夠說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
21105.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
21127.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
翁小林委員我想從今天早上到現在對於這部法裡面所提出的兩個重要的罪一個棄保潛逃跟防害司法公正罪其實大家已經討論很多那本來這個有關於法條的設計就是有不同的委員有不同的想法這涉及到法體例的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
21128.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
21153.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
但是也沒有說哪一個版本是特別好或者是有特別的有很嚴重的問題那既然就說大家現在其實對於這樣子的一個條文的大方向都認為沒有問題那麼只是在一些比較這個細節的部分或體力的部分認為要看怎麼調整那麼討論那麼久也沒有共識我建議是不是這兩條就送保留協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
21158.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
21173.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那翁委員是提說既然沒有共識的話就保留 請問黃大仲委員我從早上到現在喔我沒有一個條文我是在拖延啦我是既然是主條的話你今天七個版本嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
21174.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
21198.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
那有所有的委員的條文你去把它做一個討論是合理嘛那你從第一項開始然後到我從台灣民眾黨台灣民眾黨條文版本的一個設計是161條然後到161條之一這個也都合理只是說我們在討論這個條文的時候你像比如說謝一鳳委員還有羅志強在場羅志強委員你的版本我也在一條一條在跟你們做一個討論啊那你討論到現在來看的話你說第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
21202.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
21223.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
第一項你說大家討論了這麼久了大家沒有辦法有共識 那個我沒意見但問題是你接下來像譬如說羅志強委員他的第三最後一項的一個設計裡面他是說第五項的設計他說逃逆被告涉犯罪金本行這個三年以上有期徒刑的之罪而脫逃者加重刑刑到二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
21224.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
21252.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
你當然要好好給他做討論啊連這一項我們都還沒有去做一個討論啊那我剛提到的就是說你如果是一個脫逃或者是棄保潛逃的人這樣的一個犯罪嫌疑人還在偵查跟審判當中那你並沒有受到一個有罪判決的一個確定那你這個條文的設計是說你如果涉犯到最輕本刑三年以上的你要加重期刑二分之一好啦那如果這個本罪到最後他所涉犯的部分他 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
21253.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
21264.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
是無罪的他是無罪的或者說最後審理的結果他不是涉及到三年以上的好啦那你後面你說要加重激情二分之一前後是不是要去講清楚這個是我的問題啊所以連這一項我們都還沒有討論你就說這個沒有共識是還沒有討論到 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
21270.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
21284.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
所以歐委員這個倒不是說我拖延我從早上到現在這一個條文的審本法案的時候我是很認真的從法理上從體力上還有從整個罪責的一個原理提出來大家共同的做一個討論毫無拖延的一個企圖在 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
21289.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
21316.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
好主席抱歉我做個修正抱歉剛剛因為自己手上的版本跟我們委員會的正式版本有些出入所以必須對剛剛的發言做個修正其實如果我們根據我們委員會整理的這個正式版本第十九頁的確呢台灣民眾黨團的第十章之一是放在172條之一之前這體制上並沒有不對抱歉剛剛我的因為自己手上的版本的順序的錯誤造成了這個誤解那另外羅委員的部分呢他37章 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
21317.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
21337.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
他也是在364條之前這也是沒有問題那剛剛對於林思明委員跟對於這個林委員的部分呢也是在他的172條之前面所以呢剛剛的有點錯誤的對我們的總召委啊過度的期待我發現在我手上的版本好像只有吳召委的張銘杰明是落在正確的位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
21337.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
21366.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
忽略了其他委員的版本在編排的體力上按照我們本委員會所提供的會議資料的確都無誤那這一點剛剛的發言內容有吸引個人上的誤解那對我們之前各個提案委員的版本如果造成困擾很抱歉那我這邊做個修正 謝謝那請問還有意見要補充嗎因為剛剛翁委員是認為說大家如果沒有共識的話就是因為我們剛剛討論的是161跟161之一嘛那是不是這兩個條文就沒有共識就先保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
21368.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
21395.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
但我們剛剛討論的範圍其實是包括161跟161-1啦所以是兩條囉但是我會主條決議我會主條決議好那這樣齁那就因為大家沒有共識齁那所以161條那個趙委我剛剛那個問題啊是羅智強委員那個部分那個第五項的部分啦我們既然在討論嘛來聽聽看法務部的看法這也都很合理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
21396.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
21422.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
莊委員的意思是希望法務部表示意見對吧請問次長你有意見要表示嗎剛剛委員其實這題我剛剛有回答了就是說你本罪的部分是重罪逃亡的話要加重二分之一的話會涉及到一個循環論證的問題就是說你逃亡的時候你根本不曉得他本罪也許根本還沒成立或者根本還沒判決那如何去決定他是否所犯是最重本刑三年以上之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
21423.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
21440.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
也許這第一點第二點他是不同的法官下了判決也許逃亡罪已經下判決的時候他本罪還沒有下判決所以他不會加重二分之一可是到後來他本罪下判決是不是要對他逃亡罪提起上訴或者甚至是再審的可能性呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
21440.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
21454.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
所以你把本罪跟逃亡罪做一個連結的話就會產生一個循環論證的可能性因為我在逃亡罪論罪的時候我根本不曉得他所犯的罪本罪是否是最重三年以上之罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
21456.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
21484.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
這個就是憲道委員 方國昌委員剛剛跟你們講的啊你們沒辦法 你們在評論上 我就不知道啊我說完之後 我是在對他質疑 你們又變評論了這整個 發生什麼事了好 那就謝謝次長因為次長剛剛說的 我想民眾黨這邊應該也都有聽到了好 那既然這樣 因為大家沒有共識那剛剛歐委員也有提議那所以我們161條 因為雙方沒有共識我們就先予以保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
21485.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
21509.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那161之1一樣因為我們剛剛討論範圍是集於161之1所以那161之1目前也都沒有共識那我們本條先予以保留那接下來我們審查第163條之2那請問一下各位委員有意見要提出在第19頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
21517.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
21545.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
黃委員我那個尊重王孟愷委員的提案那是不是有必要自首或自動大案減輕或民族激興是不是先請機關代表稍微講一下因為我的習慣那個委員提案在這邊嘛那雖然人不在那但我也覺得不要那麼快把人家丟包先聽聽看主管機關的看法是什麼謝謝黃委員那其他委員有沒有問題要提出好 總委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
21547.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
21565.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
好 謝謝因為經過這樣的一個整理討論之後我們發現雖然剛剛因為我專注在民進黨黨團的提案發現別的版本的161是放在民進黨黨團它是用161跟161-1來表達但是當我們看到了洪本凱委員他的161-1他後面還有一個161-2所以這兩個併起來就變成說我們現在在處理161-1變成有兩個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
21574.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
21576.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
一個是洪孟凱委員他的161-1跟161-2那一個是民眾黨黨團的版本是161-1 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
21582.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
21602.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
那換言之就會變成交錯的部分別的委員的161呢民進黨黨團是用161跟161-1那麼民進黨黨團的161-1呢放在洪孟靜委員的是161-1跟161-2那我是想要做這個163吧你看一下163對不起163-1好那這樣的話那我同意那麼就是說因為我們161-1跟163-1要並條文來討論嗎因為後面還有個-2 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
21610.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
21621.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
因為有一個163-2所以為什麼我們說這個調次會讓我們在閱讀的時候呢中召委員跟你報告一下是163-2163-1跟163-2對再請中召委員確認一下我瞭解就是說161-1的民進黨黨團版本對到洪孟愷委員的是163-1但是洪孟愷委員的163-1還有163-2 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
21634.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
21642.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那剛剛謝謝黃委員的說明他說他尊重黃委員的163之2所以我們現在我在討論的是說我在說明的是說我們現在討論因為主席說要兩條一塊嘛你剛剛不是說兩條一起嗎我們剛剛討論是兩條一起那個跟中朝委報告黃孟愷的163之1其實是併161之1我們剛剛也沒這樣講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
21655.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
21682.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
你剛剛只說161跟161-1啊所以我完全是遵照我們張偉您的程序嘛所以我就說張偉因為您表達在程序上的推進您是一條或者兩條那你現在兩條並了之後呢我們發現另外一個版本的163-1會跑到跟你剛剛已經說宣布要交付保留的161-1又同一個內容的規範內容但是人家後面還有一個163-2嘛是不是這樣子這樣沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
21685.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
21699.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
我這樣理解主席的這個議程的安排有沒有錯誤那個 宋少偉齁還是你從對照表那裡看 因為我這邊有一份啦還是你有需要這一份OK OK 那可以 那可以我們這樣 有助於我們討論啦對 因為這一份上面很清楚了謝謝 謝謝黃委員怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
21702.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
21726.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
這件事情沒那麼複雜我們在審條文的時候有的時候委員不一樣的條號就會併在同一個欄位討論所以才會做這個對照表對照表一看就知道我們的161之一對的就是侯孟楷的163之一你說立法院在審法案的時候條號條次到最後都在順過一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
21729.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
21748.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
這大家都知道的事情嘛那我剛剛在講的 洪孟愷的163之一 他其實在對的是看實質的內容 什麼叫實質的內容就是前面跟161之一 相同欄位的163之一如果發生 就構成要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
21750.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
21769.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
它所構成的犯罪事實有自首或自動報案檢驗或免除期刑它是編在163之2那就去對它163之1嘛如果到時候順過的是161之1這個就直接再把它順成是161之2嘛我現在重點我不是在那邊對數字啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
21771.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
21795.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
在世華法治委員會討論法案的時候在那邊對數字非常可笑啊看實質的內容是有閱讀障礙嗎就請你看實質的內容就好了嘛那是不是可以先請法務部表示他們的看法看法務部是同意還是不同意還是有不一樣的見解那給各位委員做參考好 那個莊委你是要1616 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
21798.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
21815.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
會議詢問,程序詢問,不是,我要了解,因為我們立法是嚴謹的,因為事後啊,議事人員聽我們的會議記錄,其實剛剛主席宣告的是什麼?您是說161保留嗎?還是161跟161之一保留?因為我不清楚剛剛的宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
21820.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
21837.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
我有看到 我是詢問主席 我是會議詢問您剛剛的宣告是什麼我們剛剛宣告的就是第一個161條 保留那161之一呢161之一也是保留 兩個是分開宣告我瞭解 那請問我們現在如果161之一保留了 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
21838.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
21865.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
跟他類似的163之一那我們就是繼續討論囉是這意思嗎?沒有啊這163之一就是B161之一嘛啊你剛剛說是保留161之一不是啊那個那個163之二不一樣的東西啦張偉163之二是不一樣的東西啦宣告要清楚啦163之二確實是不一樣的東西如果有人不了解立法歷程喔我想就是去外面休息一下沒關係但是這個跟你的宣告有關係同樣都當過 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
21867.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
21895.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
趙偉根主席的 您的宣告要清楚這個部分 既然避免造成誤會因為我本來的想法很簡單14月15月寫得非常的清楚序號2 增訂第161條版本有台灣民眾黨黨團提案以及委員洪孟凱等22人提案之163條之1予以保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
21898.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
21898.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
對對對現在宣告 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
21900.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
21930.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
一六三之二就不討論了一六三之二繼續討論那一六三之一不討論嗎一六三之二本來就不同的條文我知道但是一六三之一剛剛我們都在看民進黨黨團一六一之一我們沒有我們是剛剛的討論是包含了一六三之三剛剛我們我瞭解我們不是每個人手上都有一份嗎我瞭解所以我要確認主席的宣告所以您剛剛的宣告是一六一之一民進黨黨團的並同洪孟楷委員的一六三之一都保留洪孟楷委員的他就並一六一之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
21930.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
21948.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
跟161-1並同保留嘛OK 確認一下 要不然免得我們後續再討論謝謝鐘召委那我們詳細說明也是我的義務好 那現在我們審查序號第三委員洪孟凱等22人提案增訂第163條之二請問各位委員有無意見有好 那鐘委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
21957.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
21969.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
謝謝趙偉其實我覺得法務部可以再大膽一點畢竟你們也是主責的一個機關不要有些條文尊重有些條文其實你們講的就是反對那你們就講了一大堆的一個說理 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
21971.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
21999.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
最主要當然是沒有版本我也知道原因那163條之二我倒來請教就是說犯前條之罪而自首或自動到案者減輕或免除期刑本來條文就沒有這樣的一個設計它這個就變成說犯這個罪它這個似乎是已經是後半段又另外一個罪你本來是因為本罪而被逮捕 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
22000.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
22026.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
涉嫌犯下哪一個罪名哪一個罪章被逮捕以後在公權力機關他的掌握之下那你自行去把他脫逃掉這個本來的一個條文設計你就要處罰那我們現在只是來加重而已可是呢 你說犯了這條罪又去自首又去或者說又去自動到案者減輕或者免除期刑這個條文設計上事實上這樣會很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
22033.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
22054.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
好像看起來是通你自己來的你來自首的然後或者說你自動到案的要幫你檢一下是合理可是這個條文的設計因為已經涉及到是你犯了罪被抓到然後又脫逃的然後又回來的一直尬尬這樣叫做自首還是自動到案聽起來覺得很奇怪是不是聽一下你的高見 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
22056.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
22071.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
好那麻煩次長說明好那關於洪委員這一條我們本我們是認為就是說要有一個時間上的一個控制因為犯脫逃罪而自首或自動當然要讓他減輕或免除期刑你如果沒有一個時間的控制的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
22073.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
22093.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
是不是在每一審審級他都有可能自動歸...脫逃罪他有可能上...因為他被告如果沒有到庭的話在身體檢疫判決處刑的話被告是不會到庭的這個時候他上訴到二審他才回來這時候要不要讓他檢所以他要有一個譬如說在什麼時候之前或偵查中或者一審判決裁判前而自動歸案 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
22095.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
22120.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
才符合一個減刑或免除期刑規定的第一個 一定要有一個時間的限制第二點 它的效果是減輕或免除期刑我們自首 我們行法律的時候 自首規定是得檢但這裡是最優惠到避檢甚至可以達到免除期刑的程度那跟自首的 或甚至自動歸案是不是法律上給它太大的一個優惠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
22121.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
22144.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
所以在法律效果的部分其實我們也比較保留因為他是避檢跟避免另外時間的部分可能也要加一個時間上的一個限制在什麼時候之前他自動歸案我們才讓他有一些優惠我是不是請次長你明白的表達一般刑事犯罪裡面你說自白 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
22146.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
22161.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
你自白的覺得你這個人有悔悟法院就說給你輕一點你說自首了大家都不知道你自己跑出來了給你更大的一個優惠你現在不是你現在是創設了一個更大的優惠變成我們又創設一個比自首更優惠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
22168.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
22193.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
法務部你們真的會接受嗎我是覺得你的語意比較我聽起來你是反對的啊可是你今天都沒有表達你的意思啊你要贊成我也沒有意見我才說請你這個專業的主政機關你們大膽的表達你們的意見自白本來就要減了那自首減更多也都合理啊我的意思你現在又把它創設一個比自首更大的一個空間的這對還是不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
22196.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
22208.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
根文報告 在整個立法的設計上 脫逃罪 基本上他提到一個期待可能性的問題被告脫逃某一個程度上他的期待可能性是比較低 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
22216.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
22232.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
多一條規定讓他脫倒之後能夠讓他有一個自動歸案之後一個減免的一個規定這基本上是做一個橫評但是這個說橫評的效果要把強到必減甚至到避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
22233.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
22247.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我們是除一個比較保留的態度所以說如果各位覺得要讓他減我還是如同我剛剛的建議必須要有個時間多少之前歸案而且效果是得減而不是避減甚至不要到避免的程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
22250.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
22276.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
我不是要批評誰強豪之,我對於本條的想法我也覺得有一個地方蠻奇怪的就是163條,依據洪孟凱的看法,163條之二犯前喬治罪而自首或自動搭檔那所謂的自首在我國法律應該是偵查機關還不知犯罪的時候那如果今天是已經發布通緝了,那怎麼會有不知犯罪所以這部分確實這個條文規定我個人也覺得我不是批評 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
22277.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
22297.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
不是批評誰啦不要說我在做評論只是我自己看這條我表達我自己覺得有一點奇怪的地方黃委員建議本條保留那我想這一條大家也覺得都有意見嘛那是不是第一 洪孟凱 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
22303.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
22328.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
沒有啦 我這樣講啦第一個他人雖然沒有來我覺得還是給他一個尊重因為今天我們這些條文出委員會出委員會也不會做成任何決議啦我懂你的意思啦我的意思是說這個都跟我們在場的人大家的法的理念差距太大沒有啦 第二個是說就自首的部分當然跟現行法的自首要怎麼勾忌可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
22329.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
22354.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
但他所提的這個東西 並不是什麼 並不是說100%沒有可以踩我為什麼說不是100%沒有可以踩第一個事情是 你可以不要給他說 應免除其刑 這個效果太強烈了但 你對於跑掉的人 或違反命令的人 你要給他誘引那不是自不自首的問題 因為自不自首是在發覺犯罪以前嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
22355.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
22381.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
但是你要給他誘因的話是如果他自己願意回來的話這時候得檢除期刑或許在整個法例跟制度的設計上面是一個比較好的安排啦剛剛次長講了半天我幫他翻譯啦我聽起來啦你們法務部事實上是做自動歸案的時候得檢除期刑這件事情你們事實上是往積極正面的方向在思考的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
22382.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
22398.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我有沒有抄議剛剛你講那麼一堆文綽綽話的意思等一下市長如果我講的不對你可以糾正我所以對不起黃衛原你剛剛抄議了我發言的內容我的意思是本條全部的內容都不可採 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
22399.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
22420.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
你就簡單講這句話還是你們認為說如果自己願意來歸案的話我自己跑回來了提高他的誘因給你一個得檢除期刑的空間這件事情法務部也是抱持正面積極的看法就剩這兩個選擇了那自首的部分就不用談了好 那總召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
22424.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
22449.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
謝謝啦有時候主席還蠻可愛的他就他檢察官的專業跟經驗會對我們這些盤本的內容提出一些看法跟指教有時候偶爾也會獲益啦那我是這樣聽起來覺得委員會的討論呢有它的正面性但是也需要再更進一步那似乎呢今天我們的詳細討論就有人認為說是在拖延那其實呢我們看到這樣的一個條項161 163之2其實呢提案委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
22450.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
22462.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那大家現場也沒有人同意這樣的設計可是又有一個意見覺得說這個設計背後的思維就是要積極正向的希望這些脫逃罪的人能夠趕快的來歸案有這樣的意義在 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
22465.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
22492.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
那很好啊那我們不是經常在做修正動議嗎我們委員會的審查不是保留後交給院會之前的協商我們委員會就要細緻化這些討論的時候發現的問題設法予以完備化這不就是委員會中心主義的目的嗎如果連本委員會都沒有辦法針對163之2他雖然的文字描述在場沒有人認同同意沒有人同意這樣的寫法或者說覺得不太妥當 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
22493.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
22512.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
但是呢對於他的背後的精神似乎聽起來主管機關他也不排斥說我們應該積極正面的面對這些脫逃罪的人他可以不是自首他可以來到案那這種情況之下文字要怎麼設計就是本委員會的執掌啊我們主席是檢察官那這樣的條文設計怎麼寫比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
22514.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
22531.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
不要總是到了朝野協商沒有結論到了院會前又針對委員會的版本突然啪一個修正動議再修正動議而當天的院會甚至連委員會的人都不曉得這個修正動議或再修正動議怎麼冒出來的那麼院會就要交付表決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
22532.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
22554.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
這是最惡劣的一個示範所以我是覺得如果能夠在委員會已經發掘問題了也任有必要了只是條文的文字設計可能未盡完善那這是我們要窮盡我們委員會眾多委員包括列席的主管機關的這樣的一個智慧我們要填充上去那當然我從意識上我這個意識上的程序我是可以理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
22555.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
22579.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那麼如果我們把163163-2剛剛有莊委認為說我們就不予處理嘛的確沒有人同意啊就不予處理那有沒有補正的機會呢可能未來會是在161-1的時候有個修正動議把它另加一項對於這些自動到案的願意脫逃後又自動返回的我們予以一些誘因這當然也是可以我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
22580.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
22604.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
那如果認為有這個必要,現在就可以修啊現在就可以就161-1,不過剛剛是保留了啦,抱歉剛剛161-1跟161都是保留那對於163-1也保留,那163-2這樣的機制,大家認為可行那是我建議主席,我們是不是把這個文字怎麼樣的表達比較完整可能洪孟愷委員的提案有他的用意 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
22604.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
22620.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
只是說在文字上呢他沒有辦法正確的掌握到有司法實務經驗的人他們認為這個條文怎麼寫才不會有一些漢格那我是誠懇的建議委員會既然開了既然有發現問題了就把它解決不要凡事就通通丟到朝野協商啦黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
22625.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
22649.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
這個法案大家有意見就表達有修正動議就提出來剛剛鍾嘉斌委員所講的內容我尊重他表達他意見和看法但大家只要回去看一下吹哨者保護法吹哨者保護法的時候那時候張偉是鍾嘉斌委員嗎他對於委員在這邊所討論的內容有不同的看法就保留啊就保留啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
22650.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
22670.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
全部都是保五流啊我的記憶非常的清楚啦不好意思那至於說到院會的時候突然提修正動議再修正動議 奇怪民進黨黨團針對崔少哲保護法的修正動議再修正動議不也是院會那天提出來的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
22671.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
22683.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
跟各個黨團有什麼不一樣每一個黨團到院會的時候提修正動議再修正動議本來就是這個樣子啊民進黨黨團的吹哨者保護法專案不也是這樣子提出來的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
22684.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
22702.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
而且這個是我們在立法院裡面有30年經驗的柯建民總召跟大家講的表決前一刻所提出來的版本才是最後黨團的立場柯建民總召在數次協商的時候都已經這樣子在教導我們這些在立法院的後輩 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
22703.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
22727.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
表決前一刻所提出來的版本才是最後的版本那更何況不要忘了去年7月16號的時候去年7月16號的時候針對柯真刑事訴訟法的條文請問民進黨是什麼時候拿出來的針對柯真刑事訴訟法的條文民進黨柯建民總召是在7月16號下午的時候才拿出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
22729.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
22738.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
那天正在進行院會7月16號下午的時候民進黨才把他們的修正動議再修正動議形式訴訟法的條文拿出來所以回來這邊啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
22742.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
22768.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
每個黨團有自己的政治立場我們大家都尊重大家都尊重但是你如果要在發言在這個條文討論的過程當中去穿插著對其他黨團或者是委員恣意的批評或攻擊的話那這件事情就要講清楚啊就要講清楚啊當初在處理吹哨者保護法的時候概念就是做一排民進黨的委員啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
22769.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
22772.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
每一條都喊保留啊不是這樣嗎我講話對不對當天全部都有水選勢序去調出來看每個公民都會有他自己的評價每個公民都有他自己的評價所以有具體的提議162 163-2侯孟愷委員的提案予以保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
22797.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
22818.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
周委我是覺得這樣處理會比較不好的原因就是說這個黃國壯委員也可以聽一下啦他這個163條之二啊這個條文會啊我們審到現在我看也沒有人去贊同他啦那也確實跟法律違背啦你163條之二是在講說犯前條之罪那你前條之罪是在講說經過通緝以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
22820.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
22840.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
那你經過通緝以後你一百六十三條之二你又講說來自首你通緝完怎麼會自首嘛你就這個條文就設計不對我們給他保留只是讓他更下不了台而已啊這個條文設計我就覺得很奇怪啊就跟法理上我就一直講就怎麼做我就覺得太破天了啊那大家就沒有人贊同他這個條文就把他一六三之二就把他捨棄掉就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
22851.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
22852.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
因為163-2前條就是在講163-1163-1是在講說經過通緝以後通緝了怎麼還會再自首 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
22862.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
22886.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
哇 趙委員你這感覺你也很清楚啊你就已經通緝了是透過他就說要怎麼去自首這是我剛剛講的那個內容是嘛 說一樣嘛所以我們就卡到這個條文就是說我們都認為這個條文就是講錯了那審起來大家很沒有人贊同這樣還要保留這條也不可以用到其他的也不可以用到其他的其他的也都是保留啊 一樣的意思啊我不曉得特別留這一條的意思是怎麼樣黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
22890.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
22918.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
對 我想說因為大家討論這一條已經討論也很久那再加上就是聽了法務副次長其實對於這一條的訂定的修正的方向還是支持的那我也認為說其實大方向是支持的那之後保留之後未來如果在草野協商有在修正文字的可能性的話那我認為說還是可以把它修得更完整不過就這一條來講的話我建議還是就保留宋協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
22920.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
22944.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
其實一樣的意思啦保不保留比如說我們現在委員會說這條不予爭定啦你今天到院會的時候他還是會復活啦我只是在表達我的意思就是說163-2跟163-1兩個條文是衝突的嘛就歐委員你把它看嘛163-2是在講前條前條是在講經通緝然後經通緝以後你就要講自首要怎麼通緝之後後面還可以自首這我怎麼看我也看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
22949.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
22971.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我現在打給那個紅委員一下因為我剛剛打是沒有人接那個不好意思喔主席我剛剛有問一個問題可是儲管機關還沒有回答我的問題非常簡單第一個你整條反對還是自動到案得檢出期刑這個政策方向是同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
22972.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
23001.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
事情沒這麼複雜不要全部混在一起嘛自首的部分用起來很怪剛剛大家都講完了嘛現在我care是自動報案的部分嘛所以就給法務部一個表達立場的機會第一個整條都不贊成就講整條都不贊成第二個自動報案得檢除即行法務部贊成這個方向那就講贊成這樣就好了嘛那就麻煩市長這邊能夠表示意見他就不說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
23004.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
23029.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
我給他智慧,他不講任何他的事我剛才其實有表達過,在特定時間之時間之前你自動的歸案,我講自動歸案不包括自首自動歸案接受他所託逃之罪的偵查審判或執行的話法律效果歸根成得檢,這個方向基本上我們是可以贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
23030.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
23044.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
但是有一個問題這條是限於前條之罪是指棄保潛牢罪同樣的在一般的脫逃罪你也要同樣的有同樣的適用因為一般的脫逃罪你要鼓勵他回來嘛而不是只有棄保潛逃罪鼓勵他回來黃委員我建議這條保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
23052.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
23071.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
中委員我想不同意見因為委員會的審查還是要表達委員會對條文的錯誤當然不要說錯誤啦設計不夠完備的部分要指明啦那一般來講我們在院會裡面也是常常處理不予增訂啊那不予增訂難道未來沒有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
23072.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
23094.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
完整的機會嗎?有嘛因為我們知道今天我們委員會的審查後續的審查到了初委員會之後其實只是只要有在今天我們一旦委員會有保留的話那意識上的程序未來朝鮮協商就是會協商那協商的時候如果大家覺得剛剛法務部的意見 剛剛委員的意見認為自動檔案有誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
23098.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
23121.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
那這個時候不管是我們現在修正動議的時候表達委員的審查意見或者如果大家今天想不出來那我們到抄寫結算上一樣整包還是有機會啦所以我是覺得說今天我不是在爭議說對紅委員有意見而是這個條文經過大家反問的討論發現它設計上有問題那如果我們用保留那到底委員的意見是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
23122.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
23148.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
所以委員會意見保留是說大家有不同意見嘛不同意見會保留嘛委員會沒有辦法做成決定才會做保留但是委員會都認為這個條文的設計顯有這個不燙之處那我們就不予爭定但是剛剛所表達出來的意思鼓勵自動到案有誘因大家都覺得這個方向可行所以這個未來在草野協商的時候委員會有做出這樣的意思表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
23150.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
23178.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
朝野協商也好 院會才有辦法處理嘛還是再次提醒我們的召委我們是委員會中心主義委員會要比其他的委員更能夠了解條文的精神要對院會報告我們對這個條文的意見那如果一個有問題的條文設計我們是以有不同意見予以保留第一 與事實不符現場沒有不同意見嘛現場的都認為這個條文沒有人認同但是也沒有人否定你認同這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
23180.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
23204.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我大部份方向我認同 我並沒有說認為完全不認同啊這就是我們剛剛為什麼講說要保留國民黨我這邊比較傾向於保留因為常常民進黨提出來的版本國民黨不同不是 我再講一個常常提出來的國民黨不同意到最後大家意見不一樣嘛他也覺得不需要訂 就好像你現在認為洪孟凱這個版本不需要訂那是不是我們就本條於保留嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
23205.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
23232.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
因為之前都是這樣做啊那我們這個條文與保留那你說會不會讓洪文凱將來難看那我相信他一定會提出一個比較釋法的一些修正動議那請問主席那我們我當然尊重主席的宣告啦但是我要再表示說這個保留是發言的意見都認為條文的設計可能沒辦法達成條文的效果是這個意思啦好不好好啦那這樣子我們163之2 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
23236.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
23262.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
163-2洪孟凱等22人提案本條予以保留那我們現在審查增訂第10張之一張名有台灣民眾黨提案還有林思敏等16人提案以及吳宗憲等9人提案及羅志強委員等29人提案第37張請問一下就張名的部分各位有無意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
23264.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
23282.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
好 那沒有的話 是不是增訂第十章之一 張銘副主席那我們這樣我也可以保留 既然要保留通通保留我意思是說 今天我們保留要有動機嘛 是不是那妨礙司法公正 那既然 其實我們也可以不保留啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
23283.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
23298.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
但是我要表達說因為這個不保留其實到院會協商之前或者出委員會之後都還是有全部在討論的機會啦我只是用這個方式表達說您說第十章之一大家都同意就不保留那如果說保留效果都是一樣的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
23298.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
23308.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
所以我要跟主席說明的是說今天我們的議事審議要保留什麼就全部都保留 你的意思講說保留跟不保留都一樣張明應該不用這樣子啊張明大家應該有共識吧要保留就保留啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
23317.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
23338.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
他要保留就保留中委員張銘你們有認為要保留嗎?遇到剛能定義就是要全部保留的意思嘛是不是這樣子你們認為不管大家同意或沒有不同意全部都沒有同意的也保留全部都同意的當然也可以保留啊如果邏輯是這樣的話當然是可以這樣做啊全部都同意的就通過嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
23339.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
23367.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
全部都同意啊但是保留啊好吧那既然大家有共識那張明的第十章之一張明部分就予以保留好那現在序號第四徵令第172條之一那版本有台灣民眾黨團提案林思明等16人提案其羅志強等29人提案第364條吳宗憲等19人提案請問就徵令第172條之一各位委員有意見補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
23374.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
23401.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
有意見沒有意見那就通過吧現在是大家沒意見要保留172之1第21頁那我再念一次有台灣民眾黨黨團提案第4名等16人提案吳宗憲等19人提案及羅志強等29人提案第37章 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
23409.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
23414.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
最後一個我講錯了是羅志強等29人提案第364條不好意思最後唸錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
23428.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
23451.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
沒有 看各位有無意見啊因為剛剛這個國民黨以及民眾黨已經表示他們沒有意見那民進黨團這邊有沒有意見我只是簡單的 剛中委員先舉手因為我還是要不好意思提醒主席因為您剛剛的話 意思說只要大家沒有不同意見就是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
23452.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
23479.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
要通過嗎因為這幾個條文當中364完全條次不同啊內容也差異很大你一股腦的把所有的版本都唸過我們剛剛在講第十章之一章名的部分剛剛講完不是保留了嗎對剛剛那個已經保留了嘛172之一嘛對現在172之一我們到現在都還沒有任何決議出來所以你剛剛問的是說大家有沒有意見剛剛主席問我們我們就都同意了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
23480.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
23482.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
同意什麼?同意一切二之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
23488.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
23517.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
這邊我們都同意不是啦我問說大家有沒有意見要補充然後他們說沒有是這樣子我剛剛的問等一下你們先聽我說我剛剛說各位有意見要補充然後國民黨以及民眾黨團說沒有那現在就請問民進黨團這邊有意見要補充這不要去亂亂去凹到那邊去啦我的問題剛剛很清楚還是莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
23521.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
23524.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
172條之一 你說對於證人跟鑑定人同意心 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
23525.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
23549.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
我老公當然是有不一樣的看法還是要來問一下啦他的這個規範他當然有他規範的他一定的一個道理存在啦那只是說同樣的我們會碰到你整個條文其實等會跟等一下之二之三那一併要去看的啦那你就變成你又把它增加一個一年以上七年以下有期徒刑跟併割一百萬的一個罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
23552.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
23569.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
那你去把它去做一個比較其他委員跟林思明委員的一個看法的時候這個其實行動的規範也都有所不同甚至於我們吳宗憲委員你的行動的設計也會有所不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
23570.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
23588.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那同樣的侵犯到的法例其實都是一樣啦那我不曉得我們法務部對這樣的一個刑度的一個安排啊我從早上講到現在都一直在講罪責的問題啊那個整個這不是親家親家的總是要給他們表達一下他們的一個看法啦好 那麻煩次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
23592.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
23609.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
關於這個一切二之一我們是認為我們就刑責的部分我們目前一貫的立場就是妨礙司法公正相關的罪章我們都希望他的刑責是在三年以下去徒刑所以關於這一部分一年以上七年以下的刑責的部分各個不同刑責辦請並考量這第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
23610.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
23637.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
第二點條文很多版本的條文都是有的用翻譯的用通譯有的用傳譯那事實上我們的這個正確用沒有翻譯這個法律上的用語所以這個過程要建上是不是要做一個修正第三個這個對這行賄的主體是證人鑑定人那有沒有他的這個密切關係就證人他的密切關係之人對他行賄要不要也要並同的有相關的行則的 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
23637.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
23651.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
的這個處罰 那以上幾點建議 謝謝我先請教次長一個問題喔 次長剛有提到翻譯跟通譯兩個字嘛那我想請教一下次長 通譯是名詞還是動詞通譯是名詞 我們用傳譯 動詞是傳譯傳譯 好 謝謝請問柯委員有沒有其他意見好 黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
23662.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
23688.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
法務部都172條之一書面報告兩次寫得很清楚基本上就是贊同這個條文你們唯一有疑慮的只有刑度的部分如果條文本身暫存了刑度的部分他有不一樣的看法我建議172條之一就保留請問各位還有沒有其他的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
23690.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
23711.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
好那如果沒有意見的話那172條之一我們就予以保留好那接下來我們審查排序5增訂第172條之二版本有台灣民眾黨團提案第172條之二林思敏等16人提案第172條之二好請問各位有無意見補充好黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
23716.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
23725.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那個我要確定一下法務部的意見就是說第一個針對我們172條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
23728.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
23751.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
所謂的要件設計我看你們的書面報告基本上也是競表同意嘛你們有意見的就是一樣是刑度的部分嘛覺得三上十下是不是會太重我先確認法務部的立場是不是這個樣子因為我其實次長坐在這邊我們今天整天這樣詢問他下來你應該心裡很清楚啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
23752.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
23776.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
世界國際會議做了什麼決議你們2019年提了什麼版本的條文出來我當初在炒你台灣民眾黨黨團的版本的時候我全部都看過了我全部都看過我在法定行會去做調整當然有我在法定行做調整立法者政策決斷上面的考量因為行為太樣就不太一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
23777.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
23803.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
所以現實上面在法定行的時候我會有不一樣的設計法務部有不一樣的看法我也尊重因為到目前為止公開的資訊裡面你們部的立場最完整的就是2019年出來的那你剛剛從今天早上到現在你推了很多是在行政院院會討論有不同的看法其實我相信我深信 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
23804.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
23825.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
法務部裡面專業調部辦事的檢察官也很清楚這部法律為什麼在行政院院會延宕那麼久前一任政務委員是誰負責的有的時候在那邊拖延律師出身的 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
23827.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
23850.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
政務委員從他自己本身的利害關係去做拖延我話是不要講太白講太白就難聽了啦有很多在關心這部法律刑事訴訟法的老師大家都很清楚啊大家都快聽不下去了給一個政務委員這麼大的權力他一個人就可以把一個這樣重要的法案給攬糊喔沒有這回事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
23856.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
23877.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
現在那位政務委員下台了,現在換林明欣嘛看林明欣有什麼樣的意見,趕快提出來啊法務部也回去跟行政院講啊,跟林明欣講啊立法院這邊在審法案,過去等了好幾年,等了夠久了我們是絕對不會再等下去的從吹哨者保護法到才化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
23878.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
23904.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
我相信行政院現在應該要非常清楚的知道立法院的決心了有什麼意見趕快提協商階段通通都可以等你反正今天出委員會下個會期法案會期才會正式辦到檯面上你們還有時間但你們如果自始至終還是一樣給皮皮我就是不提版本我就是不提版本那對不起了 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
23906.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
23922.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
那最後立法院該做的事情我們還是會做不會因為你們而停下腳步他們現在都忙著提副議那如果就172條之二的部分來 莊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
23924.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
23951.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
我還是就條文的來實質來跟各位就教跟討論172條之二台灣民眾黨是說意圖使證人不為證言或意圖使鑑定人不為鑑定或意圖使同意不為翻譯那加一個騷擾本人配偶執域寫清或三親整內的旁域寫清他是科處三年以下得併科30萬以下的一個罰金我從這個提案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
23953.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
23978.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
提案說明立法理由裡面講得很清楚啦他說所謂的騷擾是指警告嘲弄辱罵歧視仇恨或者貶義或其他相類似的言語或動作透過監視跟蹤盯騷其他方式等等處三年以下有歧途刑那以下就是我的問題啦那如果說你騷擾行為是這樣子的你就變成要三年以下有歧途刑的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
23981.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
23996.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
很類似於我們刑法第305條的恐嚇那騷擾的行為你相對於305條的是強暴 脅迫 恐嚇的強制行為那兩個法例你去把它做一個比較的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
23998.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
24025.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
這個反而是你恐嚇罪它是比較嚴重的那你騷擾的妨礙行為在立法說明當中你講的這些你把它具體的明示出來以後那你來比較現在的目前的刑法305條的過程要見的話你恐嚇的部分又是兩年以下強暴脅迫這樣的強制行為你是兩年以下那你低於強暴脅迫的強制行為的 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
24027.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
24054.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
這樣的一個行為太陽你卻認為是三年以下這個我又不懂了這今天我全部都被卡到這個地方是不是可以台灣民眾黨來做一個說明或者說請法務部這個地方也可以一併來讓我稍微讓我這個主色的腦袋瓜可以稍微暢通一下好 謝謝那因為委員彼此之間並沒有質詢的權利啦那就是我們直接請次長這邊說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
24058.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
24076.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
這條對證人做的哪些行為必須要把它入刑化這部分呢的確會有這個剛剛講的問題各個版本其實都不一樣那這第一個問題那第二個問題就騷擾的部分它的定性未來會不會產生一個明確性的問題那也是我們覺得比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
24077.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
24105.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
覺得未來給他擔心的什麼叫騷擾行為因為他畢竟會有一個刑責三年以下有期徒刑所以就騷擾的部分是不是要加其他的構成要件把它更明確化但是這個整個法的方向入罪化這方向我們是贊成的不是啊 那我就問你嘛你們當初172條之三刑法研修小組把條文提出來的時候你們法務部的版本172條之三的第一款不就是騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
24107.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
24125.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
我有講錯嗎啊你們當初刑法研修條文的時候那些刑法的大家是怎麼過這個構成要件的啊怎麼今天坐在這邊對騷擾這兩個詞又有意見了騷擾這個詞是新概念嗎它也不是新的概念啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
24129.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
24149.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
那我建議這條保留啦請問各位還有沒有其他意見市長還沒有給我說明一下我是覺得法務部應該確實要說明一下啦就是比較強度的反而比較低啦那比較強制性沒有那麼強的反而行動會比較高你真的都沒有疑慮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
24150.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
24168.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
所以這部分在我剛才其實有提啦所以證人做怎麼樣的行為必須要入刑化那恐嚇這個行為他一樣其實也是可以考慮在這條裡面加入對他恐嚇的話因為我們一般的恐嚇是處兩年以下有期徒刑嘛這邊就恐嚇他證人的部分可以把他加到三年以下的有期徒刑去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
24170.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
24196.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
就不會產生剛才莊委員所講的我一般恐嚇反而是兩年以下是 恐嚇反而是幾種比較強制我用強暴脅迫的方式是兩年以下啊我不用用到強制強暴脅迫的方式我只要騷擾反而變三年以下但是有幾個委員版本他是後面有加一個做其他犯罪行為去加重二分之一啦如果這條不把規定恐嚇進來的話其他犯罪行為也可以加重二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
24199.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
24219.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
好 黃委員有這樣的意見我一併回覆啦以台灣民眾黨黨團的立場172之2跟172之3兩個你必須要結合起來看你如果透過那個行為本身會構成刑事犯罪行為的話譬如說你恐嚇他你脅迫他 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
24220.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
24246.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
有構成另外的刑事犯罪行為到恐嚇罪或到強制罪的射程範圍的時候我們是規範在172條之3就加重起刑二分之一那172條之2我為什麼用騷擾騷擾在現行法就沒處罰嘛我今天一天到晚騷擾莊瑞雄只要不是跟性有關係我騷擾你沒有人會認為跟性有關係嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
24248.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
24269.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
只有那個跟蹤法那個什麼跟蹤什麼跟蹤法 防治法裡面那個跟騷法裡面現在有很多什麼新聞報導或評論或欽差一下下欸跟騷法是要跟性有關係欸今天莊惠熊在我的案子裡要作證我一天到晚去騷擾你有犯法嗎 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
24270.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
24294.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
所以沒有辦法落入172條之三這個是為什麼有必要但是你還是沒辦法說明沒辦法 你這個我知道你的意思但是173 172之3你172之2跟172之3結合我懂你的意思可是你還是沒有辦法去做一個說明就是說你在172之2為什麼我的你那個低度行為你把它提高到三年以下那如果是用恐嚇的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
24296.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
24321.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
就恐嚇罪加二分之一啊那不一樣不一樣不一樣你恐嚇罪本來你要單獨調回去看恐嚇罪本來就三年以下囉沒有我這樣講好了如果你認為說其他的構成要件行為譬如說啦恐嚇也好啦脅迫也好啦強制也好如果法務部認為台灣民眾黨黨團172條之3這樣的立法體力 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
24324.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
24348.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
法務部沒有辦法認同的話我沒有排一次喔我歡迎他們啊把你的條文拿出來嘛那要不然我們坐在這邊傾談嗎那我們想說就大家意見不一致那我們172條之2的部分我們就予以保留還有172之3啊這兩條一起的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
24357.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
24375.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
172條之3172條之3的部分也予以保留我們現在審查排序7 增訂第172條之4版本有台灣民眾黨團提案第174之4及委員林思敏等16人提案第172條之3吳宗憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
24380.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
24400.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
吳宗憲等19人提案第172條之二但是我們今天有另外提修正動議共有委員吳宗憲等3人所提的修正動議及黃國昌等3人所提的修正動議那就本條有無意見要補充請問各位委員有無意見補充黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
24402.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
24422.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
那個請次長看一下今天提的修正動議你們上一次提的那個書面意見上次提的書面意見認為法官或檢察官有一定的行為太陽在本來的條文的版本當中沒有辦法涵蓋那請你們看一下現在所提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
24423.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
24451.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
在這邊的修正動議有沒有把你們認為應該要涵蓋卻沒有涵蓋的是不是問題都解決或者是有哪裡要再補就請具體的講有哪裡要再補請具體的講來 次長麻煩次長回答跟黃委員報告委員是講你的修正動議二的部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
24454.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
24469.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
好 那委員的這個意見當然現在是比較具體一點但現在就是說對於他的關稅的作業項包括他的指揮之間都長官這部分我們也是贊成這第一點第二點倒是說檢察官跟法官他所做的怎麼樣的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
24470.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
24495.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
他做的處分跟甚至裁判他可能沒有辦法難刮所有我們假官法官職權所行使的範疇到底在哪一個範疇內的行為去關說才要把他落入把他入罪化譬如說委員你所提到的處分跟裁判那假官有很多是決定他沒有做出一個處分他做一個決定非常多的決定那這個決定去關說假官做某樣的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
24498.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
24526.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
這個要不要把它入刑我先停一下那個次長你現在手上有沒有你們2019年的版本你現在手上有嗎我先請教你一個立法政策的問題你看一下你們法務部2019年的部版法務部2019年的部版針對不法關說的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
24527.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
24551.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
你們是用意圖犯用意圖犯那大家都知道意圖犯的意圖是一個主觀的特別構成要件要素這個主觀的特別構成要件要素是說我意圖為自己或第三人的利益或不利益在司法案件調查偵查審判或執行中這個是意圖的內容好 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
24552.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
24575.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
那你們的客觀構成要件要素是什麼你們的客觀構成要件要素是未依法定程序對該管公務員運用影響力我那個時候在寫台灣民眾黨團版本的時候我為什麼沒有採你們2019年那個版本因為我覺得你們2019年那個版本還蠻可怕的我要有一個意圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
24577.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
24603.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
然後但是行為太樣本身我看不太出來就客觀的構成要件行為到底是什麼不在法定程序對該管公務員應用影響力你指的是什麼譬如說未依法定程序對該管公務員應用影響力啊我幫他講好話說那個下一任的法務部次長就是他了我下一次一定挺你當檢察長 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
24605.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
24608.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
我現在是一定如何如何是不是都在這個射程範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
24612.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
24637.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
那所以我才改變就是說沒有用意圖犯的方式沒有用意圖犯的方式就變成了是說什麼是說在前面的這個意圖以外在前面的這個意圖以外是我們那個意圖是要你做一定或不為一定的裁判或處分那意思是什麼意思是我很特定喔要你做什麼不要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
24639.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
24657.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
如果我們相信法官跟檢察官應該都是獨立的獨立行使職權那你為什麼要去care那你所謂的行為不行為值的內容是什麼我要維護的是法官跟檢察官他們在職權行使上面的獨立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
24659.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
24680.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
我就是要維持這個獨立性同時法官跟檢察官應該都喜歡這個條文為什麼喜歡這個條文以後你們就有免死金牌了啦以後有政治人物敢再跟你們關說你第一線就說對不起啊違法的事我檢察官法官不能幹啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
24684.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
24712.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
還要告發那個犯罪威力之強大是在保護法官跟檢察官啊要不然過去台灣發生什麼荒謬的狀況啊去關說司法沒有罪開什麼玩笑啊快要成為全球法治國家的笑柄了在台灣關說司法沒有罪快要成為全球法治國家的笑柄啊被抓到也沒有罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
24714.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
24742.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
這樣對檢察官對法官是好事嗎或許對於少數喜歡抱大腿的人是好事啦但我絕對相信絕大多數的檢察官法官人家是兢兢業業在自己的工作崗位上面做事的啦他也不希望他在做裁判的時候還要有人打電話給他還有檢察長找他還有部長找他 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
24744.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
24770.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
然後被抓到竟然大家通通都沒有事上次最高法院法官把他自己小孩關說內建引以為戒啊都已經罪證確鑿了今天先不談政治人物啊政治人物前面談的都談過了我也不想在這邊好像嚴肅的在審法案結果搞得半天好像在進行政治攻防沒有啦台灣司法史上誰曾經關說過司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
24773.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
24800.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
關心的人自己都可以去查啦但是我們摸著自己的良心啊誰可以去關說司法一般市井小民有可能去關說司法嗎不可能嘛一定是有權有勢的人才去關說司法嘛要不然那麼多人在法院在地檢署前面喊冤他們的聲音什麼時候被聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
24801.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
24826.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
不要說關說司法啦他們周圍的聲音被聽到都很困難啊我現在是在給法務部機會喔你們想一想喔要用你們原來那麼抽象的構成要件要素還是要走入我們今天希望幫你們特定具體化的構成要件要素我希望法務部今天表明一個態度第二個 第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
24830.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
24848.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
就你們所認為行為的態樣到底還漏什麼我再說一次啊法官 檢察官為什麼我們從憲法到法官法現在檢察官還是規定在法官法當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
24852.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
24881.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
還是規定在法官法當中檢察官自己應該很清楚你們為了不要訂檢察官法為了把自己保留在法官法裡面檢察官團體進行過多少不要說抗爭啦進行過多少遊說我相信檢察官團體非常清楚把你們繼續留在法官法就是希望看到檢察官真的有風骨獨立行使職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
24887.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
24892.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
當社會意識到不是這個樣子的時候檢察官的獨立性是被自己摧毀的啊回到現在的法條你們到底要採取哪一種規範模式是你們覺得你們2019年那種規範模式會比較好還是現在委員們的提案會比較好如果覺得委員們的提案的方式會比較好還缺了哪些東西具體講出來以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
24915.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
24943.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
市長有沒有要補充這邊可以先請他回答問題不然市長先回答然後我們待會我們再接著我就是因為我也看了今天的修正動議兩個修正動議都市長兩個修正動議都比原本的條文要更具體了一些但是我還是最關心的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
24944.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
24953.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
兩個修正動力最後條文上面還是有不法關說者他進行了他的客觀的行為構成要件還是不法關說這四個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
24954.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
24977.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
那這個不法關說這四個字的它並不是既定的法律用語那這不法關說它的定義這個請等一下這個市長一併回答啦如果說這個不法因為過去對於關說的這些案件最大的爭議不管是剛剛所提的那些案件都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
24978.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
25003.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
有人指控說這是關說那有人辯駁說這不是關說顯然這個關說在過去在現在不管是在法律上面甚至在社會上面對於關說行為可能大家有一個抽象的共識大概是去影響司法去跟法官說兩句話要去影響他的判決但是他究竟你要列在法條上面成為一個構成要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
25004.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
25012.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
你一定是要明確的啊那這不法關說這四個字寫在法條裡面那什麼是不法的關說什麼是合法的關說 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
25016.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
25035.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
這個部分我要請就是等一下再回答的時候請這個次長麻煩次長能夠就兩委員的問題一起回答好跟兩委員報告那首先當然我們108年那個版本的條文我們現在從時空下來看也許當時是不夠嚴謹的現在委員體的版本的確是比當時的條文來得嚴謹多這第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
25036.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
25065.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
關於這個黃委員所提的版本的部分那我們可以這樣建議就是說第一個就是說是不是對司法官的所有的行為去關注都要犯罪司法官他在整個訴訟程序裡面會做非常多的決定包括我訂庭期的決定比如說我做一些行政上的決定非常多的決定這些決定如果沒讓有人關注說我要提早訂庭期或怎麼樣都是犯罪不是啊 那我前面才我本來的條文寫的就是裁判嘛啊你們又覺得太窄 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
25068.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
25090.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
那個市長你有沒有看你們法務部之前的啊你現在又覺得這個太寬我為什麼會做調整我本來只有寫裁判耶因為我覺得那是審判的核心啊結果你們上次書面意見說太窄你現在又說太寬你可不可以有具體的建議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
25093.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
25115.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
這個也許是不是可以限於在終局的裁判或者是強制處分的申請跟決定還有偵查的終結跟上訴跟抗告或執行的決定這幾個終局的決定的關說才會構成犯罪而不是一般的訴訟程序上的不是啊 那你這樣子不是比我之前的裁判範圍更小了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
25117.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
25143.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
對 基本上他是一個不是 那你很奇怪我上次寫裁判 你說太小你今天的建議是要更小你們態度可不可以不要變來變去啊這樣搞得大家很困擾耶你上次書面意見說法官的裁判範圍太小希望大一點寫大你又說太大你剛剛的意見是希望裁判再限縮限於特定的終局裁判所以我就拜託你們法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
25146.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
25150.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
你們意見可不可以不要跳來跳去啦夏天講一套 現在又講一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
25157.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
25182.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
市長你還有補充嗎這是第一點意見第二點意見就是委員的條文裡面其實就這個關說人他是不是有運用他的影響力導致於他這個關說的結果產生條文裡面看不出來因為他是一個運用影響力的一個關說行為所以前提他必須要利用這個他自己本身的身份職務地位的影響力去影響司法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
25183.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
25207.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
所以條文裡面如果說會有運用影響力這一個具體條文的構成要件會比較明確一點以上補充謝謝好謝謝那還有其他委員有意見要補充嗎剛剛有關的確不法關說這一個定性在我們整個不論是草擬法案的過程或者行政院審議的過程當中都產生了很大的爭議什麼叫做不法關說這幾個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
25209.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
25233.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
所以後來後來就有一個後來行政院在討論過程中就採了一個大法庭一個見解就是說這個包括一個不法請託不法關說不法施壓這個比較細緻的一個行為太樣把它規範到我們的這個構成要件裡面來會不會比較好要不然這個的確是一個大家都比較疑慮的部分什麼叫做不法關鎖黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
25239.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
25260.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
你可能拜託市長回去跟那些行政院的大官講不罰請託不罰施壓是有比較具體不罰請託不罰施壓是有比較具體下一個問題又來了什麼是請託什麼是施壓我沒有請託我只是拜託我也沒有施壓我只是建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
25263.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
25289.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
搞這種名詞遊戲搞不完你如果不法關說這個詞真的如此抽象不能用 那奇怪了有多少法院判決就直接用不法關說四個字那個是在判決理由裡面就直接寫不法關說 那奇怪囉如果不法關說是一個抽象的詞 大家都聽不懂我們法院在寫判決理由的時候還直接用不法關說的詞彙 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
25291.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
25318.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
那所以我們現在要檢討的是什麼連那個判決都要拿出來檢討啊請那個法官出來講清楚啊你的判決理由寫不法官說是什麼意思啊連判決理由裡面都寫不法官說了要比法條更具體的判決理由裡面都寫不法官說了我具體保留啊我具體建議這條保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
25321.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
25347.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
保留我是可以同意啦但是在立法過程中我們要力求這個法律概念的明確我想這個是判決理由裡面用詞有太多太多了啦你說判決理由裡面寫過的就可以拿來當作法律構成要件的文字喔這個我也倒是第一次聽說了 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
25349.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
25355.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
那我覺得保留我是可以同意啦,但是我想這個東西,不要說這個不法關說,這個概念多明確這個每一次在爭議什麼東西,什麼叫做關說,什麼不叫關說,這不是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
25366.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
25390.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
那我們現在要把它立在法令上面我們現在這些修正動議裡面我們確實已經把這個行為太樣已經把它的構成要件寫得更清楚有更具體的比原本的條件更具體但是它最後還是它的行為太樣還是具體關注這幾個字我是關注這個部分是不是能夠把它的行為太樣能夠把它更具體的又明確的法律概念下去定義就這樣子而已啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
25392.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
25416.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
那我同意保留那我自己的部分我也補充因為我後來有一個修正動議那修正動議我也有參考那個法務部之前的一些建議所以我有把一些客觀的太陽預語特定下來另外就不法關說的部分我在說明欄我也有講就是什麼叫做不法關說那我有把它在說明欄加以定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
25418.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
25434.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
這部分也是可以給各位委員同仁們可以參考那就172條之四的部分呢包括那個修正動議一跟修正動議二那我們就於等一下等一下我剛剛居然沒講完172條之四喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
25437.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
25454.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
其實我剛一直在看,我一直在看台灣民眾黨跟吳宗憲、趙薇妮的版本台灣民眾黨是說,意圖使法官一定裁判,或者使檢察官一定處分,加布法官說你這個是一年以上七年以下,並科一百萬以下罰金 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
25455.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
25468.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
吳宗憲召委的部分是一徒使法官檢察官不為一定的裁判或處分一定的裁判處分在司法案件偵查審判執行當中對法官跟檢察官不法官說者你這個是五年以下得病科一百萬吳宗憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
25470.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
25487.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
縣委員這個部分是相對好理解啦因為你說針對整個妨害作證的證人鑑定人或者專家證人同意這個採取你是三年以下嘛那對於法官檢察官在偵查跟審判主體上的干預上你科處較高的這個五年以下有嫉妒刑我反而覺得這比較合理的一個選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
25491.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
25510.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
我一直在著墨在整個刑度的部分在談其實代表大家就很清楚啦對這些定這些罪名對增加這樣的一些規範其實我們到現在來講的話民進黨跟大家的態度沒有什麼不同啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
25511.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
25533.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
但是呢 要去講清楚的就是說 刑度這樣的一個安排你像比如說民眾黨你的版本對於妨礙作證同樣是一年到七年以下有嫉妒刑罰金也是一百萬那你同樣你民眾黨版本172條之一這樣的一個設定跟目的我是想知道為什麼會做這樣的一個差別待遇啦就這樣簡單而已 否則你訂這些條文 我沒有反對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
25536.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
25562.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
那刑度你不覺得我一直從來一直在講刑度的安排我對這一些就真的是就覺得怪怪的是不是委員跟委員又不好意思去說質詢那只是說我對這樣的安排是有餘力啦所以我贊成是保留啦好 謝謝那如果各位委員沒有要補充說明的話那我們本條就予以保留那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
25564.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
25583.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
所以增訂第172條之4及修正動議1修正動議2予以保留好那我們現在審查序號8增訂第172條之5版本有台灣民眾黨團提案第172條之5委員林思敏等16人提案第172條之4請問各位委員有意見補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
25591.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
25619.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
你們法務部有反對的看法嗎這個是在保護法官跟檢察官就是不要讓你們說為了說因為我這樣講好了啦在美國司法的裁判檢察官的處分那個都是公眾可以批評的一點問題都沒有但是如果為了特定的結果去對法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
25620.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
25631.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
做什麼事情去殺他啦殺他的家人啦那是重罰那不是開玩笑的事情在殺人罪的世界裡面美國為什麼殺法官會列為一級謀殺罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
25636.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
25658.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
特定的,美國的先發點跟我們不一樣,有特定身份的人殺他的時候,那個法定刑事會往上拉的台灣沒有,台灣只有紫系血清春慶署,272有這樣的規定那在美國整個法律制度體系下,有一些人他們認為他們要承擔很多壓力,要保護他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
25660.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
25676.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
所以對他們怎麼樣那個法定刑都會再往上拉法官是其中一種那我們當初為什麼會訂172條之路基本上我在訪的就是美國的立法力如果對法官對檢察官為了要他們幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
25678.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
25703.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
去犯法那就加重期刑二分之一那市民委員的提案我也可以理解他就不是加重期刑二分之一他就直接一個法定刑就下去了這兩種立法模式法務部認為哪一個比較好我不會堅持自己的看法我其實是抱持一個開放的心胸我事實上是有可能可以去支持林市民委員他們那種提案的方式那但是我想要聽聽看法務部的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
25706.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
25734.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
跟委員報告首先當然謝謝民眾黨提的這個案對檢察官、法官、刑事事務做特定的保障那我們定表贊成那立法的體力方面因為配合我們172之2跟173的體力那我基本上用這個目前的版本加重二分之一我們是比較能夠接受到體力一致只是說在體力的適用上面我們172之2他有做一個騷擾行為有特別的一個刑責那對司法官或他的密接家屬騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
25735.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
25748.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
反而沒有,只有犯罪才會加重二分之一嘛就是說這兩個他體力的橫屏上會不會產生一些疑問這樣好了齁你們如果認為對法官檢察官為了意圖影響結果而騷擾認為要把他納入規範範圍的話你們還有時間趕快提條文出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
25754.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
25776.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
你們還有時間趕快提條文出來事發法制委員會其實對法務部非常好一而再再而三的提醒你們還有時間趕快提條文出來等到下個會期真的處以這個法案再錯過這班車你們事後再發聲明遺憾說沒有這個沒有那個我就不會客氣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
25778.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
25785.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
這整個立法的歷程全部都記錄下來我們已經一而再再而三的催促你們把東西給交出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
25788.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
25811.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
那次長還有補充嗎?沒有那如果各位委員沒有要補充的意見的話那增訂第172條之五的部分也予以保留那本案逐條均已處理完畢 作以下宣告一 本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會公決 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
25813.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
25837.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
2.本案須交由黨團協商3.院會討論時由吳昭偉中線出席說明4.條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理議程所列事項均已處理完畢本次會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
25839.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
25839.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
嗚呼嗚呼 |