| IVOD_ID |
16443 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16443 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
24 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-02T08:31:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-02T15:55:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
07:24:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc2b89873ec9b2dea2ce1f9dc46489d241529fa0cca45d56270a46c36013489e825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案。
二、繼續審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:00 - 15:55:00 |
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1913.175 |
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1938.392 |
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報告委員會出席委員五人以組法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄立法院第十一屆第二會期司法及法治委員會第二三次全體委員會議事錄實現中華民國一百十三年十二月三十日星期一上午九十一分至十一時四十六分地點本面紅樓三零二會議室出席委員吳委員思瑤等十一人列席委員鄭文正前等六人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1938.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1957.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
店席官員、司法院副秘書長王梅英等人、主席、中招及委員嘉賓報告事項一宣讀上次會議實錄決定確定二、司法院函文一百十三年度中央政府總預算決議檢送稅出第四款第一項決議一、三、四、六、七十八及七十九更正之預算凍結書面報告請查照案 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1958.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1972.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
决定不予备查三至七司法院含为一百十三年度中央政府总预算决议减送税出第四款递向决议三四六七十八及七十九预算冻结书面报告请查照案等五案决定第三日至第七案均令定期继续审查 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1973.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1998.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
討論事項一 司法院函文一百十三年度中央總預算決議減送稅數第四款第一項決議依預算凍結書面報告請查照案二 繼續審查司法院函請審議行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案決議第一案令定期繼續審查二 行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案大體討論完畢進行逐條審查第十條及第十五條均照司法院提案通過本案令定期繼續審查宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2001.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2027.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
好 請問各位上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏好 沒有的話我們議事錄就確認接著介紹到場委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員歡迎謝委員榮介歡迎黃委員國昌歡迎陳委員俊宇接著介紹應邀列席官員首先介紹司法院王梅英副秘書長還有財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2030.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2040.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
李慶華次長歡迎您那麼其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2042.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2070.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
本次議程討論事項暨兩案分別排定繼續審查司法院含情審議稅務行政事件審理法草案及行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案那麼現在進行討論事項第一案繼續審查司法院含情審議稅務行政事件審理法草案本案前經一三年十月三十日本會期本會第十次全體委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2071.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2092.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
報告及詢答完畢另訂其繼續審查另於11月11日召開公聽會聽取學者專家意見後在今11月25日本會第16次會議排審決議另訂其繼續審查源於今日繼續審查由於提案條文前已宣讀完畢那麼現在進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2096.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2114.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那麼如果有修正動議請禁訴 送交來主席台處理好 請問在場委員本案是否要先進行大體討論或是直接進入逐條審查來 請先進行大體討論好 那我們就進行大體討論好 那麼首先 那麼就請委員來表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2117.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2145.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
韓委員上一次針對有關於稅務行政事件審理法在詢答的時候我已經清楚點出來一個問題在稅務行政事件當中你們有別於目前的行政訴訟法另外設置了一個審理法在性質上面它應該是屬於程序法的性質而不具有組織法的意涵我想這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2147.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2168.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
應該要先予以確認第二個事情是說針對所謂的稅務行政事件在有別於目前行政訴訟法的範疇當中另外再訂一個審理法但我覺得你們那個我該怎麼講你們司法院在看這個條文的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2171.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2189.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你們有沒有真的認真的去比對過你們所提出來的稅務行政事件整理法跟現在的行政訴訟法什麼地方有特別規定的必要什麼地方沒有特別規定的必要我為什麼這樣講具體的來講行政訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2195.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2220.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
稅務事件審理法稅務事件審理法裡面有規範的就適用稅務事件審理法的特別規定沒有特別規定就回到行政訴訟法的一般規定我想這個在法律適用原則上面應該是很清楚的但第二個層次的問題是說我說你們有沒有認真的去比對行政訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2222.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2245.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
跟現在你們所提出來的稅務事件審理法有哪些地方行政訴訟法裡面的規範你們並沒有要去改變但是你們又在稅務行政事件審理法裡面重複去規範我想你們聽得懂我的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2248.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2267.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
具體的來講在行政訴訟法裡面審判長要命當事人就事實上以及法律上面的問題為完全的辯論當事人所謂的聲明陳述有不明瞭或不完處應該要透過產民權的發動使他續名或補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2272.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2300.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這個有關於審判長採民權的規定在現在行政訴訟法裡面沒有規範嗎沒有規範嗎那為什麼用問號因為如果有規範的話那你們在稅務行政事件審理法重複的再把它抄一次規範一一合了在因為你們整個法典整個規範的模式請容許我這樣講是在非常倉促的情況之下弄出來的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2303.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2325.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我是搞訴訟法的我一看就知道先就第一個問題先回答好嗎你們現在就有關於審判長產民權的範圍在行政訴訟法裡面的規範跟稅務事件審理法裡面的規範為什麼要重複規範理由在哪裡可不可以先說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2327.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2353.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那個我先跟主席說明一下因為今天要處理的稅務行政事件審理法是一個專業程度非常高的法律所以我希望即使是在大體討論的時候我們所有的問題跟司法院官員的回答點對點的回答這樣子會比較清楚一點那否則的話把所有的事情全部都混在一起的話問題不太容易談得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2353.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2372.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 謝謝黃委員的建議 那麼接下來請金剛代表就委員的部分一一做回應那麼委員如果對於回應的部分有意見如果沒有其他委員要發言 那就請委員繼續詢問 請好 那個報告主席 那這一部分我請那個陳廷長來回答好 那陳廷長回答完後 那個莊委員要詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2375.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2390.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
謝謝委員的詢問我想先針對委員剛才講這部法訂得很充足但是事實上我們這部法其實是研修了兩年多的時間那兩年多的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2391.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2414.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
大家這個彙整而成的結晶那關於委員剛才講的行政訴訟法跟稅審法重複的部分那我們不可諱言因為稅審法它是一個訴訟法是在稅務領域的訴訟法它是行政訴訟法的特別法我們把比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2415.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2426.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
有益於行政訴訟的特別的規定把它納入專法那剛才委員所講的有重複的部分就是像我們舉例來講就像我們本草案的11條跟我們行政訴訟法125條也就是關於這個產民權 審判長的產民權當生的協力義務跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2441.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2464.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
行政法院一直全調查的這一些的規定確實是一樣的但是我們為什麼會要在稅審法重複規定其實只是基於體力的完整因為11條之後我們搭配的是12條13條關於一些協力義務加強的規定所以我們為了要使體力的完整因此我們在11條這裡就把 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2468.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2491.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
行政訴訟法125條的規定把它納進來那另外委員有講說那我們這部法到底哪一部分跟目前行政訴訟法有不一樣的地方那舉例來講就像是19條19條到23條關於總額主義的配套措施對不起我先打斷一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2492.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2507.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那個是另外一部分啦我們在談有關於審判程序的各個問題的時候請不要把A問題跟B問題混淆在一起我們今天如果要談紀要談紀判例的客觀範圍就談紀判例的客觀範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2510.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2537.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
要談審理的基本原則就談審理的基本原則當我再問你在審理的基本原則上面的時候審判長在稅務行政事件審理法當中所附的產名義務的範圍跟內容我問的事情是為什麼在行政訴訟法裡面既然有規範而稅務行政事件審理法裡面既然沒有特別規定的情況之下有必要再把條文照抄一次這個是我剛剛第一個階段發文 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2539.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2565.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
發言最主要的重點因為你們這樣子的編排會讓大家覺得非常的困惑什麼叫做非常的困惑 請記得喔你現在法典上面整個規範的模式是稅務行政事件審理法在整個行政法院的審理程序上面針對有關於有別於行政訴訟的部分你要做特別的規定你要做特別的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2567.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2591.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
如果沒有特別規定我們就回到行政訴訟法來加以審理那為什麼這個原則的建立很重要我才問你們說你們有沒有認真的去盤點盤點法跟行政訴訟法彼此之間的異同到底哪裡有必要做特別規定哪裡沒有必要做特別規定當你把行政訴訟法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2593.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2612.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
一模一樣的東西你照抄到稅務行政事件審理法當中對於接下來在整個程序法的法解釋的體系上面會造成什麼樣子的影響這個是你們要去深思的事情譬如說你們討論完了嗎討論完了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2623.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2640.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
請委員繼續譬如說你們現在在稅務行政事件審理法裡面採取強制律師代理那采取強制律師代理那針對有關於行政訴訟法裡面就有關於無資歷的部分訴訟救助的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2641.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2667.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你們在腦袋裡面想的啦可能是說那就當然適用所以我這邊沒有必要做特別規定我猜啦你們是這樣子想的但變成的是說齁在訴訟制度使用者的角度的觀點來看大家會開始陷入一個困惑所謂困惑是說你在裡面有重複寫沒有重複寫它所代表的意義到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2669.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2693.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
是你刻意要把它漏掉還是你沒有刻意要把它漏掉什麼時候要重複寫什麼時候不要重複寫你懂我的意思嗎譬如說在智慧財團案件審理法裡面在智慧財團案件審理法裡面基本上也是要律師代理但是在智慧財團案件審理法裡面就寫得很清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2694.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2716.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
在強制律師必須要代理的情況之下他後面馬上接一項說你如果無資歷的話你如果無資歷的話可以依照訴訟救助的規定來去請有法院來幫你去指定你的訴訟代理人但是你在稅務事件審理法裡面卻沒有這樣子寫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2720.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2739.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那我要問的問題是說你們現在過去這幾年針對有關於審理程序規定了很多的特別法在民事訴訟的領域裡面除了智慧財團案件審理法裡外有傷勢事件法有勞動事件法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2740.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2762.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在那一邊的立法體力立法上面的原則跟你們現在所提出來的稅務行政案件審理法裡面兩者之間的落差非常的大所謂落差非常的大是在你們這部法律裡面在整個規範採取的模式上我看到的是混亂簡略加混亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2764.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2790.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
有哪一些東西真的有必要做特別規定把它清楚的列出來跟行政訴訟法裡面的規定要怎麼接軌有哪一些地方根本不需要重複的再去做處理卻做重複的處理所以我在看你們這部法律的時候要配合著行政訴訟法一起看我必須要老實跟你們講看的是很痛苦啦看得非常的痛苦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2792.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2816.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
連我這種學訴訟法學了這麼久的人看了都覺得很痛苦你們就想想在使用訴訟制度的當事人使用訴訟制度的當事人他們看完了以後心裡會有什麼樣子心裡會有什麼樣子的想法這是第一點第一點我要提出來的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2818.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2847.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第二點我要處理的事情是說我上次在質詢的時候問了你們針對有關於剋稅的處分補稅的處分跟違反這一個納稅義務的罰還裁罰這兩件事情你們在你們的審理法裡面針對有關於當事人的協議義務基本上面我如果沒看錯是屬於一個同事的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2849.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2853.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
同事就是把他一視同仁的狀態但問題是從有關於課稅處分跟違反納稅義務的罰環 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2862.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2889.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他在法律的性質上面本來就不一樣本來就不一樣針對有關於行政法的部分你們卻把他跟瞌睡處分在整個審理程序上面對當事人他所負的協力義務把他完全同事的情況之下跟過去很多最高行政法院的判決所建立起來的原則是不相一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2890.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2896.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你們是有意識的要變更過去最高行政法院的見解嗎因為這個問題牽涉到好幾個條文的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2901.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2925.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
包括當事人他為真實完全陳述義務的範圍包括了當事人的協力義務以及包括了因為當事人所沒有陳述的時候所謂的舉證責任包括證明度的減低這件事情的不利益到底應該要由誰來加以負擔的問題因為這個牽涉到好幾個層次 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2928.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2952.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
好幾個條文的處理所以你們現在基本上面的原則跟立場是什麼如果你們原則跟立場是你們要把瞌睡的處分跟行政法環的部分不區別對待的認為當事人都負有一樣的協力義務而違反這個協力義務的時候會產生相同的法律效果的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2953.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2971.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
那我現在就會明確的說牽涉到這個共通問題相關的條文我今天都會要求要保留理由是在這件事情上面我自己個人所形成的法確性跟法價值跟你們現在所提出來的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2972.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2998.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我對協助草擬法案的老師沒有不敬的意思但我覺得很痛苦的事情是你們這個條文到底是怎麼出來的我一直跟你們要委員會討論的過程你們拒絕給我說那是什麼內部意思形成那我就覺得很奇怪民事訴訟法的老師是沒有內部意思形成民事訴訟法每一個條文字字斟酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3000.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3007.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那個條文的文字是誰建議的理由是什麼在委員會的審議過程當中大家都可以看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3008.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3031.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所有對我們民事訴訟法的審議有問題的人這個條文怎麼變更的當初這個條文怎麼蹦出來的大家去看委員會討論的時候都知道是依照哪一個老師的哪一個學說的什麼想法去形成這樣子的法律文字乃至於要怎麼樣去解釋適用嘛但是你們稅務行政事件審理法我看你們的條文的時候我老實講我充滿了困惑 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3032.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3043.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
但我跟你們要委員會討論審議的過程你們又說這是內部資料是秘密不可以提供你們現在還是堅持不能提供嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3046.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3068.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
好 那個剛剛黃委員有三點意見 那麼在陳廷長回答之前莊委員是不是讓陳廷長先回答 還是對黃委員的三點意見要繼續做問差不多我跟黃國昌委員他這個問題好 那就追詢我們的黃委員的意見謝謝張委員 剛剛列席的司法院我們這些官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3070.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3086.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
黃委員剛提到的這部分是用語是比較學術化的跟你們對話但是其實在審理的過程裡面我都常常一直站在比較民眾的角度在看待事情但是我提出來的問題就跟黃國昌委員就差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3087.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3115.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
你像譬如說我一直想追問的就是說這個協力的義務跟不治政己罪這個概念裡面我看這整個稅審法第14條裡面有去提到說不得因為刑事訴罪而拒絕去做一個協力但是你說在這個實務上你當事人同時確實會有刑事的偽造文書或者說逃落稅那可不可以因為擔心刑事訴罪而拒絕履行這樣的一個協力 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3117.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3128.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
過去確實最高法院的看法跟我們現在這一部法的規定裡面我倒認為這一部法定下去你就是把過去最高法院的見解都推翻掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3129.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3150.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我這樣認為 這第一個因為過去啊 最高法院你看109年的判制49號裡面他在談那個法院應該認定該處罰要件事件不存在要把這個不利益歸給這個稅政機關就他提到的時候 納稅義務人在漏稅處罰程序裡面他認為他是沒有協力義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3153.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3169.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以剛好還是這樣認為 是沒有協力義務然後也就是說 他不用去自證己罪而且他也認為說 並且有無罪推定跟罪疑有利於被告 就是無罪原則的一個適用所以稅徵機關在對於漏稅沒有去事實負擔證明它這個存在你要去證明這樣的一個存在 這樣的一個客觀事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3178.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3181.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那也就是說你過去最高法院認為說納稅義務人他是沒有協力義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3184.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3208.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
至少我從109年判之49號裡面我看到是這樣那現在是不是最高法院的見解也認為是類似於刑事法如果最高法院認為是刑事法的話那會不會跟現在司法院裡面的立場有產生變化這個我想必須要首先去做一個說明那另外其實我認為一個核心的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3210.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3226.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
就是說我記得我剛開始在審這部法律的時候當初我是擔心是武器評審的問題啦當初是想說會不會那些你們去把我們隨身機關的人調到 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3228.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3240.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
借用這樣的一個人力或者武器平等的一個問題但是我想追問的就是說歷年來我看我們整個行政法案的問題裡面其實幾乎是最重要的核心問題是老百姓的勝率太低了太低了去年多少 好像16%這樣對 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3249.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3270.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
有19%你說那10幾%這樣的前提之下的話我們整個稅審法的如果這部法律您順利去通過了以後那你怎麼樣說在整個稅務事件的一個審理裡面讓民眾會覺得有更強的信任我覺得這很重要不然我們修法的目的要幹什麼我們不是只是一直在幫行政部門司法部門的立場是站在幫行政部門這樣拔鵝毛 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3278.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3306.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我覺得這也不對那另外你說舉證責任的偏向納稅醫護人的問題你到底可不可以稍微去做一個環節啊去做一個環節說歷年你去看實務的見解裡面你說有將那個主觀證據的提出責任認定是客觀舉證的責任所以老百姓常常都因為自己沒有提出自己有利的證據去承擔這樣的一個不利益啊但我倒認為說在整個稅務事件當中你這個撤銷訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3308.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3330.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
並沒有主觀舉證責任你同時你稅政機關你應該去擔負更大的舉證責任才對你看我們這個行政訴訟法第136條裡面去闡述的立法理由他就講說主觀舉證責任是當事人一方為了免於敗訴就有爭執的事實向法院提出證據的一個行為的一個責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3332.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3354.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那你客觀舉證責任是說這個要件事實不明法院假定事實不曉得存在或者不存在所生當事人不利益的結果的這樣一個責任所以本法在撤銷訴訟或其他維護公益的訴訟裡面你去明定法案應該職權來調查證據所以你說當事人到底有沒有主觀的舉證責任我反而認為沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3357.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3383.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
不曉得我的理解會不會錯誤啦畢竟我也從實務來啦但是看整個法律的一個操作裡面你去搭配去看納保法第11條的立法理由它是在講說稅捐基徵機關在程序當中你稅捐事實的調查是稅捐機關本領你的職權你應該自行去負擔的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3385.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3388.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那你稅捐的一個義務人 他只有配合調查的協力義務而已耶那你如果把這樣的一個責任 把它給倒過來的話你去看納保法 你在11條 你再看它的第二項是說科稅或者處罰事實的產名不論在稅捐程序或者訴訟程序均受職權調查主義所支配應該由稅捐機關承擔最終的舉證責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3410.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3416.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以你看我從這樣的一個敘述以後我倒認為稅爭機關它才是調查並負有舉證的義務而納稅義務人他的協力義務是輔助稅爭機關的一個調查的性質他並沒有舉證責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3425.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3446.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以我談這些就是剛好附和黃國昌委員剛提到他談得比較學術但是我從實務面上來看的話你去搭配納法法來看的話所以我們這一次在審這個稅審法有沒有辦法去改善這樣的一個問題啦有沒有辦法去改善這樣的一個問題啦或者說你最高法院在實務上部分將主觀舉證責任你推給納稅義務人的情況之下這個問題會不會因為這部法律你通過以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3454.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3481.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
會造成不一樣生理的結果我比較在意的是這個啦所以先去把這個整個現行的食物的運作的一個太陽去做一個釐清而且你本法通過以後會有什麼樣的具體差別我們在審這部法律的時候我才會認為比較有那個正當性所以這個部分是不是請我們司法院這個地方來一併做一個說明好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3482.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3510.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
好 那麼在社員代表說明之前主席這邊請機關代表留意因為現在在大體討論的階段那剛剛黃委員提出的三點問題那莊委員提出的我在聽起來大概有四五點那有些議題是同樣的議題那有些是有類似意見那是不是就請我們的機關代表陳廷長主一的 在你回應的時候最好是就哪位委員的問題 您主一的回應這樣委員會比較清楚 那麼請陳廷長 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3513.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3526.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我先回應黃委員剛才的指教黃委員剛才有舉例就是說他覺得我們這部法比較難閱讀因為有一些要回過頭去看行政訴訟法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3530.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3553.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這個的確如此我們不能否認但是為什麼會做這樣一個設計安排呢其實我們規劃的目的就是把具有稅務特性的部分把它拉到專法裡面因為它是一個訴訟法那訴訟法規範的相當的冗長從起訴前起訴 上訴審各個的程序它都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3553.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3555.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
很詳盡的規範那如果我們要把他這些規範全部通通納到我們專發裡面再來規範一次的話那就會有相當份量的條文都是會跟行政訴訟法完全重複 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3572.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3588.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那我們是為了避免這樣子的法條過於冗長因此我們才把具有稅務事件特性特殊性的部分的條文把它規範在專法裡面那至於有一些的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3592.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3613.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我剛剛就跟主席請示嘛我講完了他沒有回答問題那他講完如果當回答問題這樣就沒有辦法點對點的討論嘛所以我針對他第一點的回答我懂你的意思啊所以我才問你啊法官採民權的部分行政訴訟法裡面就有規範啊啊你為什麼這裡又全部重新照抄一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3615.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3627.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所以你講的立法原則是行政訴訟法有規定的社會事件審理法沒有改變你就不要重寫嘛那你這樣的講法跟我剛剛的問題你的回答你不是自打臉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3629.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3649.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
黃委員我這樣建議因為大體討論本來其他委員也有他的要詢問的議題那我們尊重每個委員讓他充分發言那因為機關代表他也要逐一的記錄那是否讓機關代表呢第一輪的部分讓他完整的陳述他的想法那針對委員的提問他每一點都提了那委員聽了之後呢再就他的答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3649.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3672.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
不能有針對性的部分再提出第二次的追問我覺得因為委員會還有其他委員所以我覺得這樣的方式可能因為大體討論就是這樣那主條的話可能我們需要一對一的對應比較及時是不是請容許我們委員會我們讓委員在第一輪的發言後也讓機關代表做第一輪針對委員的詢問主義的回應讓他完整的說明好不好好 那請陳庭長繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3673.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3680.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以我要接著講的就是說那為什麼我們這部法案11條的規定會跟行政訴訟法125條重複就是因為其實從11條12條13條14條都是規範協力義務的規定那我們因為尤其11條12條 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3695.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3709.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
12條後面有一些是跟行政訴訟法不太一致的部分所以我們是為了體力的完整因此在11條這一邊才做了這個跟行政訴訟法125條一樣的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3712.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3728.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
那這是我首先說明的那第二點就是說其實我們的行政訴訟法第125條的第二項就已經明白規定說當事人對於行政法院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3729.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3745.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這個他所主張的事實行政法院依職權調查的事實關係當事人負有協力義務這是在111年修法的時候就已經把它規定在裡面了 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3746.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3772.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以目前我們行政訴訟法的規定是如此而且在我們一般的行政訴訟法的領域的相關的爭議事件那其實裁罰處分都是普遍存在的那例如像環境事件公平交易法事件或者是交通的事件都是有裁罰處分在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3774.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3800.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
依照行政訴訟法125條第二項的規定這個就是都有當事人協力義務的適用我們並沒有去區別哪一種的處分有哪一種的處分沒有那如果我們單純在稅審法將當事人協力義務關於處尤其是關於處罰處分的這一個部分把它排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3801.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3817.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那就會造成與目前現在各行政法領域不一致的情形那會導致體系的失衡這是我要先講明白的至於委員剛才有舉例最高行政法院的相關的判決委員剛才舉的是109判49 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3824.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3846.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
是在我們111年修法之前做成的裁判那關於這樣的一個裁判所表示的法律見解在修法之後是不是仍然可以適用我想這個應該是只有終審法院才能做出這樣一個決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3847.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3872.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那我只是單純的陳述就是111年行政訴訟法修法的時候就已經明定了當事人有協力義務的這一件事情那我接著想要說明的是為什麼在行政訴訟法或者是我們的稅審法要特別強調當事人協力義務這一件事那因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3873.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3889.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
其實我們行政法院或者是行政訴訟的目的它不僅僅是在保障當事人的權益我們還要同時來確保國家行政權的合法行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3890.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3918.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這也是我們行政訴訟的一個重要的任務那為了要確保國家行政權的合法行使因此發現事實 釐清事實的真相這一件事是非常重要的一件事但是我們的行政訴訟法又不如像刑事訴訟法一樣有搜索扣押這一些的機制我們完全沒有 因此 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3919.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3934.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
我們考慮到說其實很多事實或者是相關的證據資料都是掌握在當事人的手中是由當事人管理中的因此我們才會在這裡特別的強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3937.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3957.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
當事人負有協力義務他有跟法院一起來合作發現真實的這樣一個義務這是我們為什麼要特別強調協力義務的這個規定尤其是在公法的領域裡面那這是我要再做一點的補充的 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3958.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3977.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那至於關於黃委員剛才有提到的就是說之前就叫我們的是說看目前草案的14條的規定就是因為我們科與當事人比較重的一個協力義務但是我們又怕說這個協力義務過重尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3978.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3990.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那我們就在14條的第二項有做了一個緩和的措施也就是說今天如果你負協力義務的納稅義務人你同時有被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3992.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4009.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
刑事被告身份的時候那這個時候我們認為你的協力義務還是不能免除那為什麼呢我們是認為說如果今天他因為犯罪他在法律地位上就能夠獲得比較優厚 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4013.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4029.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
優厚的地位他可以不負協力義務他可以不要提出相關的證據資料他可以拒絕到場那我們會覺得相對於誠實守法的納稅義務人來講他卻在法律上要負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4030.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4051.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
這一些的協力義務相較之下這是一件不公平的事情所以我們才會在14條第一項這樣來宣示說當事人的協力義務並不會因為你有受到刑事的追訴或處罰而免除但是同時我們也為了避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4052.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4077.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這樣子的效果當省的協力義務效果太強並且同時考慮到不自證己罪的原則因此我們在同條的第二項做了一個緩和的措施也就是說這個時候不管是基層機關或者是行政法院你都不可以用強制執行的方法來實現促使當省實現他的協力義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4080.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4090.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以因此就做了相當的一個調和那我想跟黃委員報告這一條的規定是參考德國租稅通則300 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4096.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4100.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我看一下103條跟393條兩條的規定把它規範在我們的第14條裡面這個是我們研究團隊聖子榮聖老師在我們研修的過程中大家就會有這個疑慮說如果讓這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4118.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4135.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
因為他不能免出行 協力義務的話會不會太嚴苛 因此做了大家想說做一個調和的機制 因此盛子隆老師才幫我們再研擬了這樣子一個條文出來所以不是沒有什麼黑箱的作業這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4137.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4151.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那關於莊委員剛才有另外提到一個問題就是說那當時其實稅捐機關他負有依職權調查的義務他也有舉證的責任這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4152.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4180.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
都是在納保不管是納保法或者是相關的法令規範都有明確的規範所以並不會因為當事人有協力的義務機關就可以免除掉他依職權調查的這個責任也不可以免除掉他有舉證責任的這個義務存在那我想這一個是絕對不會變動的那我初步報告到這裡 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4181.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4209.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
好 那麼在第二輪之前那我再跟委員會說明一下那麼我們現在要進行第二輪那剛剛機關代表已經就第一輪兩位委員的質詢提出了回應那待會就請第一輪的委員發言委員可以去追問那在這裡因為內容相當多那大概剛剛我聽到的意見主席這邊聽到意見在之前我們的公聽會也有不同的學者專家提出不同的意見那機關代表也有做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4210.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4229.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那這裡吳主席也補充追加一點待會在第二輪的時候機關代表也可以一併對於第二輪發言內容加上主席這一點也請做回應剛剛有提到我們大體討論當中有提到稅審官的設置是否會增加造成原來當事人跟這個辯檢的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4234.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4261.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
武器不對等剛剛莊委員有說的大家都會很多通俗意見認為說你從稅務行政機關調人去做稅審官來協助法庭審理是否使得當事人的不利更加傾斜那到底稅審官的設置是有助於法庭去發掘雙方所提的證據的事實還是協助稅務行政機關增加他們對於當事人不利證據的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4262.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4281.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
這個部分可能我們在之前的公聽會有人有提出這樣的憂心再重複一點 簡單講從稅務行政機關借調人員來擔任稅審官協助專業法庭到底是幫助專業法庭能夠有效的對兩兆之間的舉證能夠做充分平衡客觀的評價還是強化了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4284.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4309.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
對於稅務行政機關他們要去質疑要去對當事人的追訴幫助這個稅審官的設置反而對當事人是不利的這個年在第二輪發言的時候回應的時候請也進行補充那接下來我們第二輪是不是黃委員要表達 請第一個 你剛剛提到說行政訴訟法在2021年的時候有修正第125條 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4312.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4322.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我們看一下行政訴訟法第125條的規定第一項它講的是什麼?它講的是我們採取職權探知主義 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4324.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4352.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
行政法院依職權調查事實關係不受當事人主張之拘束嘛那簡單的講就是沒有辯論主義的適用啊當事人所謂主張的事實法院也可以依照職權來加以審酌嘛那你進一步到證據當事人所謂聲明的證據法院也可以依照職權來加以調查嘛那這個就是行政訴訟法裡面採取職權探知主義這沒什麼好說的啦那第二個是什麼第二個是進一步的講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4354.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4380.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
對不起我看一下前項調查當事人因協力為之這個就變成了是這個條文請你看一下立法理由請你看一下立法理由那個裡面啊在裡面的理由是什麼他說行政訴訟的審理以職權調查為原則然偵訟事實發生在當事人間當事人有時較行政法院更能掌握正確的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4382.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4396.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這個是基於誠實信用原則並促進訴訟之成熟當事人由於行政法院合作協力探求發現事實真相之必要所以真定第二項 明定當事人的協力義務但 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4397.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4421.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
行政訴訟法在125條規定了這第二項了以後所謂在這邊所講的當事人的協力義務跟你們在遂審法想要發生法律效果所可與當事人的協力義務可以是同一件事情嗎請注意喔 我用的是問號可以說是同一件事情嗎我為什麼說可以說是同一件事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4422.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4450.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
第一個我不認為當初立法者在2021年修正行政訴訟法125條的時候我們的立法者腦袋裡面想的是他會變更在稅務行政案件當中科稅處分科稅處分跟罰還處分是兩件不一樣的事情兩件不一樣的事情在審理的原則上就應該要區別對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4451.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4478.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
就應該要區別對待我不認為立法者當初在修行政訴訟法125條的時候腦袋裡面要去變更最高行政法院在針對罰款處分的這個部分它所已經穩定形成的法律見解我真的不這樣認為我真的不這樣認為第二個那你說交給未來的法院在個案裡面去處理這就是我們現在在擔心的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4479.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4499.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這是我們現在在擔心的事情如果我們今天在稅務事件審理法聽你這樣子講一講我就直接放過去了按照你們這樣子的條文把罰還處分的部分也把它排除在或者是把它納入了本來在最高行政法院裡面當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4500.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4523.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
不附有所謂的他要自證自己有受處罰的要件事實存在或是排除所謂的罪以為輕等等的原則的話那我就很清楚的表示我不同意其他立委同意我沒意見但是我不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4525.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4548.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
因為這樣子的在訴訟上面的法律效果的變更太劇烈了啦太劇烈了到時候因為違反協力義務啊然後被罰什麼被罰罰還處分的當事人會找誰算帳啊會找我們現在坐在這裡審條文的委員算帳所以我立場一定要講得非常的清楚這件事情我反對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4549.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4573.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
跟這件事情有關係其他所有的條文我都要求要保留我都要求要保留這為什麼是我在大體討論的時候我特別要把這件事情所點出來那司法院你們如果贊成想要用2021年的行政訴訟法來當作正當化的理由那我就坦白的講我不同意我也不接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4575.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4593.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因為我可以很率直的講當初2021年在修行政訴訟法的時候那時候的立法者根本沒想到他在那個時候同意在行政訴訟法那個抽象的原理原則反饋到稅務事件案件當中竟然造成的效果是你們今天所提出來的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4595.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4616.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那按照剛剛啊 廳長所為的回覆 更有可能在講說啊 在行政助從法修正以後 前階最高行政法院的判決是不是還可以被維持還是有變更的必要 恐怕有進一步討論的空間那意思是什麼 意思是 你的意思是不用懲罪整法 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4618.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4646.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
當初行政訴訟法修了125條的規定以後其實最高行政法院的見解在這個脈絡裡面就要變跟我讀不出來我也不同意但如果存在這樣子法律風險的話那更加深了我們在處理稅審法的時候這個部分絕對不能放的決心那要不然的話當初的立法者在修行政訴訟法125條根本不曉得在修什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4647.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4664.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
他所會造成的影響也搞不清楚然後就讓法院日後有可能用這個當作理由來變更之前最高行政法院所做出的穩定的而且比較保護納稅者人權的判決的法律見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4665.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4685.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
知識體大絕對不是開玩笑的事情第二個部分我從來沒有說什麼特定老師的研究案是黑箱什麼立法我今天再問一次在委員會裡面討論條文形成的過程當中的會議記錄可不可以交出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4687.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4714.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我們每一個立委在這邊討論條文誰發表什麼樣的意見法條要怎麼修要往哪個方向我心中的價值判斷是什麼我們都全程錄音錄影還堪稱在立法院公報上面因為我們每一個立委要跟人民負責啊你們行政院現在你們現在司法院端出一個條文出來我現在倒還不牽涉到說是哪一個法官或是哪一個委員要負責任的問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4717.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4733.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
雖然按照邱連功老師的看法邱連功老師的看法我相信你們大家都很清楚生條文出來是有社會責任跟歷史責任的這是為什麼民事訴訟法研修會要求這個條文怎麼出來的白紙黑字 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4735.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4752.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
都要跟社會大眾公開那未來的法官未來的學生未來的研究者在研究這些條文的時候司法院的條文的形成過程當中當初的考慮是什麼可以讓大家知道那理由我已經說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4755.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4770.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我不想再複述了我今天只有個最直接的你們這個稅務行政案件審理法裡面你說大家花了很多時間研修了兩年嘛那研修了兩年總有會議記錄吧會議記錄可以交出來嗎這是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4772.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4798.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好 謝謝 因為剛剛黃國昌委員強調有兩個部分其他委員有沒有要針對第一階段大條件進行追問的不然我們就請機關代表先就黃委員的這兩個部分來進行回應跟闡明那還是要提醒一下我們目前因為受民選託付的立法委員我們的意識必然要對選民公開這是一個民主政治的責任政治那我想這個部分我想我們都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4798.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4814.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那至於行政機關或司法院本身我相信包括大法官受到民意基礎提醒同意權的這些人員包括大法官在憲法審理也有義務對於社會進行公開的說明因為他們是經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4815.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4830.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
有民意機關基礎所同意的人員包括考試委員包括監察委員大概在委員的部分都有如此的規定那至於說除了這些憲法機關的經民意機關行使同意權的委員的或官員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4831.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4849.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
意識有一定程度必須介入之外那其他的機關內部的形成那怎麼去進行對社會做一定程度的說明我想待會在機關代表也可以一併陳述好謝謝那麼就請就剛剛黃委員的部分兩個部分請機關代表進行回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4879.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4898.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
是的 報告黃委員 關於行政訴訟法125條是民國111年修正的我想這裡他的修正理由也講得非常的明確其實就是可與當事人協力義務 而且是要跟法院合作協力探求發掘事實的真相 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4902.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4925.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個當時確實是沒有做任何的除外的規定那至於最高刑黃委員剛才指教的那個判決那我們我們尊重啦但是我們也沒有辦法去對忠誠法院所表示的法律意見再多所智慧那以上是我的說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4926.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4938.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 其他委員有沒有要再做第二人選隨理委員會的記錄是有沒有要交出來我問了 然後你拒絕回答可以這樣喔 司法院可以這樣喔那麼請副秘書長做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4942.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4964.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
跟委員那個報告因為這部分那個委員會的歷程就是有長達兩年時間那當時邀請委員就是過來參與會議的時候那時候並沒有告知他們說這些會議以後是就是要交到那個立法院去的那就是就是他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4965.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4991.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
大家知道說這個一個討論過程是非常長的它並不是像現在我們已經提出來東西有一個固定的那個東西那所以說就是為了保障就是不只是這一次委員會啦因為在司法院有非常多像類似的委員會就是為了充分的保障就是這一些邀請到的委員他們可以很充分的那個發言就是這些資訊可以就是沒有什麼忌諱的可以在這邊充分的那個做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4992.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5001 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
交流那所以就是我們暫時是沒有就是這一部分那個記錄是沒有那個就是提出來以上補充報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5003.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5023.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
好 謝謝那在這裡主席請教一下因為我們知道那麼在機關意見形成過程中會諮詢相當多的學者專家這些意見來源那這些意見的提供者本身是否知道他所提供的意見未來要被問責我想這涉及到他的意見未來對於未來的最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5024.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5043.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
形成的內容是否有拘束力那如果說今天向大法官向法庭任何大法官的見解未來對於最後的判決會有一定的影響那我們相信這樣的內容應該被揭露那如果說機關在形成這樣的最後意見之前所收集的意見提供意見者 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5043.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5065.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
他不預知知道自己的意見對最後所形成的有一定的拘束力那我們要如何的問責或去了解機關在形成最後意見之前所收集的這些內容是否完善那我想今天不只是黃委員包括主席這邊也關切著因為司法院相對於我們其他行政機關跟我們立法院的接觸是相對比較少 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5067.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5081.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那如果一個行政機關部會之間他們要形成一個法案那這些法案他們怎麼樣去收集意見然後成為機關最後的提案內容我想立法院這邊會對於行政院的部分做出較多的詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5082.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5104.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
那而在這過程當中因為過去的例子較多我們大概也知道從立法機關要去索取這相關的資料大概有哪些的對象跟範圍而當時行政機關他在提供這些資料的時候他也可以拿捏那樣的分寸那因為司法院過去在做這些相關法案的提案的時候大概都是以最後機關形成的意見來提供給本院 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5105.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5132.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
進行委員會的討論那當我們想要進一步去發掘這些意見形成的過程到底有哪些不同意見可以讓我們來參酌這的確是一個我們委員會有想要去了解的所以我可以理解我們委員提出來這個要求有它一定的合理跟正當性但是由於過去比較沒有這樣的一個例子所以我是希望說我們機關代表針對委員的要求你們是不是能夠做一個比較完整充分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5132.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5162.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
一個談診因為我也知道當下你們要剛說的當時兩年前提供那個研討會當中學者的意見他怎麼知道他的意見之後到我們這裡審查會被要求揭露這個我想的確始料未及但是在什麼情況之下合一的可以來提供我們還是很希望司法院這邊能夠想辦法呢滿足我們委員會在審查法案當中所必要掌握的諮詢內容那這個部分剛剛因為莊委員好像有表示意見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5162.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5184.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
要求要來請專委員謝謝這個司法院這個地方可能也沒有去講清楚啦你說一般大法官你向法庭不要說向法庭你說在一般法院裡面大法官尤其是大法官他做出來的意見書或者說部分不同意見書不管你什麼樣的方式他去呃 闡釋他的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5194.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5211.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
這對這個整個憲法法庭在解釋法律到底有沒有違背憲法的時候我相信他是勇於去把他的主張提出來然後都會具名那是不是在整個司法人員對於我們這一些研討會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5213.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5235.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這一些學者專家他們的一個意見來提供就他提供給立法院我倒覺得有他的一個必要性啦你像比如我們也可以知道說當初學者之間的不同的一個意見攻防他們著墨的在意的是些什麼 擔心的是些什麼這個其實有他的意義 那至少是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5236.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5244.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
有的人會覺得說那我當初參加研討會我沒有想到說這個東西會送到立法院那有沒有可能去示白法的方式你不要笑啊你會擔心你就是這個原因啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5253.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5272.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我今天如果你看我一直強調啊你像很多判決出來以後社會大眾認為那是恐龍法官做出來的恐龍判決我常常不認為啊我常常認為那是很大膽的要看他的說理怎麼樣啊那時不符合國民的法律感情或一般人的法感啊但是那個邏輯是看起來是看起來是還通的可是導出那個結論那個確實是很大膽啊但是問題是你在研討的過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5282.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5301.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
勇於去提出他自己的看法如果是我我都好不容易有這個機會提出來要讓立法院來接受啦那應該是會更喜歡把自己的名字揭露才對我不曉得啦你們的擔心會是什麼是說怕對他們不夠尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5302.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5328.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
或者說有當事者的學者專家認為我就不想東西丟到立法院有人這樣主張嗎應該是不是你司法院你們過於擔心了不然你廳長你今天不要做廳長你今天你好學者專家的新聞來你參加這個研討會你要公佈同意見當然是希望說你的看法你的主張來被立法院或者說你們司法院提出來的一個版本裡面給接受啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5329.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5347.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
他後來就說出來,不要跟他說,不要跟他說我真沒說真沒說我怕人家知道,應該不至於才對啊我認為啦,我認為這樣子比較不符合人性所以立法院這樣的一個要求,我認為是合理的除非你跟我講說,當事人,我那個學者專家會對他造成什麼樣的壓力我比較難想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5350.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5362.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我比較難想像我今天針對這個條文裡面我覺得這個設計是不好的我提出我的看法我希望你示範提出的版本是按照我的意思的那我應該是要讓大家知道才對啊我也很喜歡讓大家知道才對啊通過了就是我自己的對整個法律設計的一個貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5372.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5392.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那沒有通過我很負責的我當一個學者我很有骨氣你看當年那個條文我是批判站在批判的一個立場的我覺得也還好所以我不知道你們的顧忌是什麼這一點我真的從從頭到現在我都沒有聽懂是不是可以請副理事長這邊來說明一下你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5393.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5409.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
沒有辦法來提供的理由是什麼因為你們一直講說當初請這些學者專家來沒有去想到說這些東西要送到立法院那好像是說這些東西對立法院來揭露的話是一件很可怕的事我覺得不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5410.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5438.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我看了以後反而覺得說 喔 這個學者專家是有見地的喔然後或者說哪怕他是提出不同的一個看法裡面學者跟專家本來就是跟我們立法院本來就不一樣啦你如果要逼武林來說 那不一樣的感染啊你未來他會逼你的學術能力 你未來逼就差很多啊學術能力哪怕很好 進到立法院來會降低啊因為大部分都著墨在政治啊 很合理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5439.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5442.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以你們是在怕什麼?我告訴你應該是很扎實的啊因為你們那個理由講得立法院這邊聽起來我看中央秘務委員招委他也聽得怪怪的啊我也聽起來怪怪的啊我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5457.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5483.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
其實我也想知道不是只有黃國昌想知道我也想知道說其他在這個審理的過程裡面大家所持的態度是些什麼也讓立法委員在整個審理法案的過程裡面多一點長一點知識也不錯啊因為學者專家在攻防的時候總是因為他對整個體系他有著墨哪怕是這個天馬行空那總是不會胡說八道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5487.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5511.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 那個機關代表因為莊委員的部分是不是能夠比較具體的說明因為我們都知道因為立法院為了完善法案的修訂那我們會有公聽會而這公聽會是規定在我們立法院執行新司法當中那麼來參與的學者專家也知道他所發表的意見會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5514.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5532.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
完整的公開跟介入那我不曉得司法院在進行相關法案的研修你們開的研修會的性質跟定位以及當時邀請學者專家來彼此的認知是什麼那麼又剛剛幾位委員發表的例件是說就立法委員的立場來講我們邀請來的學者專家在公聽會上 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5533.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5562.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
他們不管相同或不同都對我們整個立法是有幫助應該是樂於也得到他們肯定會被介入我想很多學者專家在公聽會他之所以願意來他知道他表示的意見在立法院裡面會留下記錄的那不曉得我們司法院當時你們在形成這道法案的草案過程當中那些研修會是否具有同樣的性質也具有彼此之間對這個事情的最後的處理有一個共同的認知那麼請副委員長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5568.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5570.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
政府資訊公開法第18條第1項第3款 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5584.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5608.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
政府機關做成議事決定之前呢它內部單位的擬稿或者是其他那個準備作業就是這個部分是可以不用原則上原則上是可以不用公開的那就是我們成立了一個委員會其實這些都是諮詢性質就是都是讓他們提供那這些意見事實上委員有時候講的那個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5609.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5632.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這整個都是一個流動的那個過程會彼此說服跟那個反駁那最後這個都只是一個政策形成的一個階段那最後就是說我們會採取本院司法院他會採取什麼樣的一個立場比如說要不要去規定一個協力義務或者是說那個最後相關的這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5634.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5662.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
採什麼總額原則的這一些那個政策呢它其實還是由那個司法院就是我們的那個業務廳最後的那個決定的啊那所以這個只是一個政策形成的過程那當然就是說以上那個不管是那個主席或者是說剛才那個黃委員跟莊委員的那個指教我覺得也都很有道理那這部分司法院就是對於我們過去的那個做法我們是不是要變更我想這個我們都可以研議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5664.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5684.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那我這邊繼續追問因為我們都知道一般通俗的理解如果以報社的社論通常報社拼有主筆群那主筆群在執筆這些社論的時候是不具名的但它既然刊出就代表報社的機關立場大概類似但是報社製導知道說這一篇是誰寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5686.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5706.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那過去也曾經發生過類似的案子,就是到底竹筆寫的這篇社論,報社有記錄,那我肯定有記仇,那麼未來呢,在探討該竹筆在其他的事件上,需要了解他的收入的時候呢,那麼報社是可以就其竹筆的社論的統計,去了解說他到底在 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5707.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5723.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
只比了哪些社論 支領了多少酬勞至少有個記錄啦所以我就很好奇說那到底我們這些最後意見的形成有哪些委員參與那他們那些學者專家的意見如果被納入了 那至少你們知道嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5724.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5744.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我想這個要有記錄這個是一件事情那至於要不要對外公開您講到了政府資訊公開法當中的規定我們也了解但是呢是不是您再想一下那因為有委員繼續要詢問還有在第一輪的大體討論當中主席這邊有提出一個關於稅審官的設置的一些問題也待會請能夠回覆現在先請黃委員我再說一次剛剛可能有委員提到說過去沒有這種例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5752.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5777.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
過去就有這種例子啊怎麼會過去沒有這種例子呢我剛剛一直跟你們講民事訴訟法的研修整個歷程完整啊連當過司法院秘書長的呂太郎他每一次都參加啊他清楚的不得了啊怎麼會沒有這種例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5778.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5793.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
最可怕的事情是什麼最可怕的事情是公開跟不公開完全掌握在所謂行政機關在你們是司法行政機關的手上這個就形成了什麼 恣意嘛我愛公開就公開我想不公開就想不公開什麼時候給你們這種權利啊這不就是恣意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5808.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5830.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我不想公開的時候隨便找個法條來當擋箭牌我想公開就公開這不是法律所正要防止的恣意嗎怎麼會沒有例子不僅僅是司法院你們去看一下法務部在做民法研修的時候一樣記錄公開啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5834.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5845.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
要不然我怎麼知道這條物權法的規定條文是怎麼來的你立法理由通常寫得很清淺嘛誰怎麼主張誰怎麼主張誰怎麼主張嘛但是在稅務事件審理法裡面我為什麼要跟你們要研討會委員會裡面的討論紀錄因為國內針對這個事情相關的討論就很稀薄嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5863.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5890.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
正是因為很稀薄沒有辦法從搜尋那些學者的論文知道他們真的看法所以才跟你們要記錄嘛以前在修形式訴訟的時候有哪一個老師在參與形式訴訟的研修會害羞自己的見解李育雄老師的看法是什麼王兆鵬老師的看法是什麼陳韻才老師的看法是什麼法律系的學生大家通通都要知道啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5892.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5898.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這個條文最後是按照哪一個老師的學說寫出來的念法律的人都會知道啊這個字要保護什麼隱私啊我完全聽不懂啊我再說一次啊這不是沒有潛力啊這也不是在探知什麼個人的隱私啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5918.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5947.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
參與司法院各種法律案的研修是一件光榮的事情法律學者能夠去參與司法院法律案的研修是一件光榮的事情因為自己的想法自己的學說見解有可能成為法條特別是在針對司法院所提出來的法律案到立法院這邊來可以說是相對於行政部門提出的修改的幅度都很低啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5948.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5976.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
因為專業程度高嘛專業程度高嘛特別是訴訟法的規定但問題是什麼 但問題是為什麼這件事重要剛剛你們講了半天說啊 這個去變更當事人的協力義務不是這次才幹的之前新生訴訟法就幹了那我就想要知道嘛你們那個時候委員會在討論的時候是基於這個理由嗎還是有其他的考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5979.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6003.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
而且委員會在訂這個條文的時候是不是已經有意識了清楚的意識到沒錯我就是要變更最高行政法院的法律見解最高行政法律見解不是只有一個好幾個啦不是只有一個好幾個好幾個下來穩定都是這樣子的看法了那個見解最後造成的影響是什麼就是訴訟的勝判 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6005.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6020.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
有沒有協力義務舉證責任要不要減輕最後影響的是什麼就是訴訟的勝敗而那個訴訟的勝敗就是人民的權益這個是為什麼我們這麼重視這件事情的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6024.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6045.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我希望啦 司法院東西要交出來你們如果這麼堅持 東西都不交出來的話 那沒關係今年處理預算的時候 看用附帶決議還是主決議以後司法院 在研修這些法律的時候所有的研修紀錄 不是交給立法院而已啦是對全民公開啦對全民公開啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6047.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6063.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
大家對這個法律要有意見有想法很好奇當初什麼時候提出來怎麼提出來的都可以有個清楚的記錄可以遵循啦好在接班代表回應之前齁嗯翁委員有意見嗎我做個先做個整理齁好那呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6067.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6078.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們委員會針對睡神法開過公聽會那麼邀請來的學者專家本身其實剛剛我們討論的意見在那場公聽會都各有學者專家持不同看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6078.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6102.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那我想跟委員會建議市法院可不可以就這些公聽會的出席的學者專家過去曾參與稅審法的研修的時候他們如果有參與那我們就知道他後來在公聽會表達的意見應該跟他在研修都參與研修的時候的意見或者他之所以願意表達公開被記錄應該是一致的這是推論 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6103.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6111.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
好 他如果說來公聽會會講一套那麼他在研究會的時候想必也應該是類似的意見那他 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6112.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6139.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
不吝於讓社會知道他的公聽會表達的意見應該也不吝於讓他研修會表達意見也讓社會各界知道可不可以請機關代表請整理我們上次的公聽會有出席的學者專家過去有哪些曾經參與過你們在長達兩年稅審法研擬當中的研修會至少我們委員會會知道說那天來參加公聽會的哪些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6139.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6152.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
在研修會裡面可能有哪些意見這個我想至少是比較容易馬上就現在可以取得的好不好那待會呢 翁委員詢問完畢之後呢剛剛主席有詢問的那個最審慣的意見請再一併回應來 請翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6155.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6175.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
是 有關於這個研修會的會議記錄要不要全部公開我個人的看法是說當然這個研修會其實已經結束了嘛中間這個陸陸續續大概兩年多都有在開會那麼確實如果說當時主管機關是沒有去一開始詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6176.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6189.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這些學者他們願不願意公開他的會議記錄的情況之下那這個司法院要貿然公開可能也不見得那麼恰當但是我相信就是以我過去曾經參加過一些法律研修的經驗來講法律學者們應該是不會介意把這個他在會議上面的一些言論的表達他對於一些法律觀點的論述予以公開那麼但是確實這些會議記錄對於我們立法院在審查相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6205.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6213.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
法案的時候也是很重要的一個參考資料所以這裡有沒有可能可以請廳長或是副部長這邊可以就是再去問一下當時參與的這個學者們他們是不是願意就是就他們整個發言記錄整個逐字稿的記錄呢就是實名公開如果不願意的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6228.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6249.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
是不是也可以用匿名的方式譬如說A委員B委員C委員的這樣子的一個方式公開因為我想我們的重點是在於想要知道到底在研修會議的時候委員的當時他們所陳述的法律觀點是如何那麼至於說哪個委員他是不是願意公開他的這個姓名讓我們立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6249.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6272.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
或是讓民眾知道那我覺得這個以我的判斷大家是會願意公開的但是如果說真的有少數的學者認為他的可能他的前述的觀點有所改變那也怕大家誤會認為要先隱匿他的名字的話那是不是又可以用代號的方式來公開我覺得這個或許也是一個折衷的解決方法以上建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6275.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6293.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
謝謝 謝謝翁委員的建議 聽起來蠻可行的那這裡先做一個宣告跟預告那我想為了讓機關代表有時間去處理剛剛委員詢問的我們會在10點半的時候做一個小休息那如果你們有事情要趕快請這些資料啦 要去整理啦 要去提供 要去詢問在這段時間你們趕快去進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6294.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6307.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
那麼剛剛在場如果還沒有委員要心目的詢問的時候是不是就剛剛主席這邊提到關心的稅審官的設置會不會使目前雙方不對等的地位更加惡化還是能夠幫助兩邊包括這個稅務醫務人那些醫務人跟我們稅務行政機關能夠更為平衡請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6319.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6347.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
謝謝主席我想跟各位委員報告的是關於我們這一次法案新設置一個叫做稅務審查官那其實他是一個法官法院內部的一個輔助的人力那為什麼要新增設這個人力呢是因為我們這一部法案他擴大了法院的法官的職權法官的責任變重了就是法官他必須要 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6349.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6367.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
確實核定出認定出一個稅額一個數額出來那甚至在帳證不完整的情況之下他還要透過一些推計的方法來推計科稅來做這件事情所以我們其 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6368.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6391 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
及需要這一種具有稅務積增專業的人員來協助首先說明的是其實我們這個職位是法院內部的機構內的專家成員所以他是受法官的指揮監督也就是法官在 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6392.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6406.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
偵辦具體個案的時候有需要的時候就可以請稅審官來幫忙處理例如我們目前草案有四種推計的方式到底哪一種最能夠竊盡真實的稅額 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6408.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6430.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我們就可以請這樣專業的人力來幫我們計算看看到底要採用哪一種的方式這一種既然是法院內部的人員同時我們也考慮到它的中立性的問題因此我們在法條本身就設有稅務審查官迴避的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6432.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6446.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
繼續報告之前我想再跟各位補充的就是我們這個稅審官的來源其實我們設計的是多元禁用的他除了跟基層機關借調之外也可以自行來聘用 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6449.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6475.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個具有這一方專業知識的人員所以他是在法官監督之下來處理相關的事物如果是借調過來的從原來的基增機關借調過來我們也怕他之前有參與相關案件的處理因此我們有在法律明文規定他有迴避的制度是准用法官迴避的規定那 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6475.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6504.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
另外我們也考量到說大家怕說如果從機關界調過來有這種官官相護對納稅義務人不公平的情形我想我們是可以透過一些內部的管考或者是考評的機制來導正他的一些的觀念那例如我們也許可以設就是說他怎麼樣幫法官找到原處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6505.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6519.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
有違法之處那他怎麼樣幫法官正確的計算稅額這都可以作為他的績效績效加分的項目藉由一些內部考評的機制來確保他的中立性其實我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6528.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6551.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
也有之前公聽會也有請智慧法院來說明因為像類似的制度在智慧法院他們也有技術審查官跟商業調查官那尤其是技術審查官的部分目前他們有12位是跟經濟部智慧財產局 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6552.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6567.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
戒掉相關的專業人員來從事專利行政訴訟的處理那根據智慧法院提出來的統計數據我們也可以看得出來當他們設置 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6570.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6594.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這個計審官之後那整個撤銷原儲分就是發現原儲分有違物的地方撤銷原儲分的比例是整個增高的那也有相關的統計數據資料顯示就是在設置計審官之前其實他們去撤銷原儲分的比例可能都是在10%以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6597.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6617.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
從設置這個計審官之後他們的撤銷原儲分的比例提高到19.67那所以其實從相關已經有實證經驗的這個技術審查官的這個制度來看的話那希望可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6620.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6645.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個事宜委員們的疑慮跟這個納稅義務人的疑慮那我想這是法院內部的人員我們有責任確保他的中立性那當然就是可以透過迴避的規定透過內部考核的規定那而且最重要的是他是在法官的指揮監督之下最後的決定是法官來做成的那以上初步報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6646.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6674.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
好 謝謝大體討論的部分 好 我們第三輪 是不是請黃委員因為今天 現在在大體討論嘛剛剛那個資料的部分我是覺得洪小林委員其實開了一條路啦你請司法院再回去思考一下照翁委員那樣子建議的處理方式我認為相對是比較緩和一點但如果真的沒有辦法處理的話那我們就必須要透過其他的途徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6676.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6701.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
就必須要透過其他的途徑來處理我想話講到這邊應該是算蠻清楚第二個就是審判的部分就是審判的部分就打開天窗說兩話就是稅務法院在德國的稅務法院他們的法官就在做什麼就直接在那算稅額因為人家有能力算 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6703.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6728.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我應該沒說錯啦德國稅務法院他在整個審判權獨立的時候為什麼稅務法院是獨立出來的他們要去追求訴訟上面的經濟避免萬年稅單然後避免在行政機關跟行政法院來來回回造成人民十年二十年甚至三十年的痛苦打開天窗說亮話就是人家的法官有能力算嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6729.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6752.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
直接在訴訟的審理堂中他就算了嘛算了以後判決就直接講清楚你要繳多少錢嘛紛爭就解決了嘛那在台灣就不是這樣嘛所以你們為什麼要涉稅審官我可以理解啦因為法官就沒有能力算嘛所以要找人來幫忙懂得怎麼算的人來幫法官算 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6753.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6782.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我可以理解我可以理解那問題是什麼現在問題有兩個層次第一個是來源從行政機關這邊來的人每一個人在工作的時候一定會形成他的工作慣性從頭到尾怎麼算的那些含釋怎麼解釋適用的怎麼反映到稅額具體的計算上面那個是在稅務機關裡面工作了可能10年20年以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6784.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6812.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
他的整個思考的方式完全就是那一套那你覺得他會突然因為到法院了以後他思考的方式改變嗎我老實講書難想像書難想像那第二個你要從外面找專業的人進來其實我也不反對但問題是你們到底跟考試院處理好了沒有因為上次考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6814.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6835.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
給的意見有關職官等的不可用聘用的方式處理會破壞文官體系那可是我上次問了這個問題我還是沒聽到答案所以你們現在司法院跟考試院針對這件事情最後的結論到底是什麼因為現在大體討論的時候剛剛主席召委提出這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6836.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6852.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那我就沿著再往下弄因為針對你們要去輔助法官所設的稅審官的這一件事情恐怕跟智慧財產局裡面的技術審查官沒有辦法當成是一個相同的事情在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6853.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6876.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
沒有辦法當成是一個相同的事情在處理因為針對那些技術審查官以前之前在有關於專利案件當中是不是無效或者是得撤效技術性上面他能夠是純技術性上面的考慮跟在稅務案件當中在稅務案件當中稅務課程機關他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6879.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6894.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
長久以來所累積的工作習慣跟他們的思維模式是不是會藉由稅審官帶到本來要以納稅者權利保護為宗旨的這一次稅務行政案件勝立法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6895.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6921.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
社會各界有非常多的疑慮有非常多的疑慮而到目前為止你們說這些人到法院來他就是法院的所以他就會變得中立這樣子的解釋恐怕不太具有說服力以上好 謝謝因為剛剛有我們吳世耀委員舉手那民主黨是吳委員要先讓他想還是他再答那個吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6924.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6939.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好那委員那先就這提供部分那關於稅審官的部分因為又提及到有包括我們今天後面第二案的這個行政法院組織法有相關到稅審官的設置的問題先就資料提供先簡短的做說明請副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6940.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6962.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
第一個有關於那個稅審法當時制定研修委員會第一個有關於委員的這個部分是已經公開的這個部分沒有問題這個現在大家也都可以查得到那第二個就是有關於那個會議內容是否公開那我非常感謝就是各位委員跟主席的那個指教那我想司法院立場是只要能夠讓這個立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6964.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6991.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
大家可以充分的那個溝通那更完善的立出一個對我們國家有用的那個法律我們都很願意去做那所以我覺得那個委員也提供了很多具體的那個方式那我想這個部分我們會努力去做會去做那個研議那很快的我們也會把這個結果就是帶向那個立法院報告好 以上謝謝 那吳委員請吳委員之後我們可能結婚等會後我們就先休息一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6993.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7020.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
對 主席已經宣布10點半休息就資料的提供大家再對話一下能夠把握休息前的時間在納稅者權利保護法上路之後我們訂這個專法就有其必要嘛那剛剛一個上午大家的討論都會focus在稅務審查官畢竟他是一個新的設置他的中立性 他的專業性到底是稅審官說了算還是法官說了算 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7021.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7036.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
好剛剛已經很清楚的說明最終的這個judgement還是法官但是大家還是有這樣子的一個擔憂但是就33個條文的一個新的專法的立法裡頭所以省官當然他很重要不過他的條文就是在25條啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7037.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7042.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
那當然另外是配套是行政法院組織法的這個有第五條有增加在全文33條裡頭它攸關的還有大家倡議這麼久的你怎麼去落實總額主義啦怎麼去加強當事人的協力義務啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7054.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7057.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
甚至怎麼樣去擴大強制這個律師的代理範圍等等那當然更重要的這個暫時權力保護的機制要建立所以他33個條文裡頭我覺得每一個條都可以事實上是可以先推進去討論的那至於稅審官的部分在25條如果大家還有疑議的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7073.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7099.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那個條文大家可以再保留所以我是希望說民間也倡議這麼久那司法院的這些各項的討論也進行了這麼多那要提供資料就完整的提供這本來就是可以公開的但我不希望因為稅審官的這個他只是牽涉一個條文那是不是可以請主席我們可以廣泛討論之後可以逐步推進有爭議的條文就保留就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7100.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7117.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那需要我們接官代表回嗎 因為我們待會要上休息 有沒有要先回應我這樣覺得啦 複密還有聽長修法的過程裡面 你像比如說以前民宿訴訟的修法學者跟學者罵來罵去 話也許不好聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7119.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7145.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
委員會這邊要的不是要其實真的不是要那一些啦就是說你那個那個意見的形成裡面要那個才有意思而已嘛你學者有時候不想要做公關公關也很火爆很可憐的這見識過所以我倒反而覺得剛剛我提到那個趨勢變化我看別的委員也有這樣的一個相同的一個認同政府的資訊公開的部分確實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7148.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7175.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
機關內部意見在行程過程或者行程之前可以不用提供可是你也要去看那個單書啊這個是有公義性的立法院來知道這個行程的過程裡面來講的話就像蕙蜜你剛剛提到的那確實也是讓一部法律可以這樣衝動更加完善這個確實有它的一個公義那不要讓他們造成說他們當事者的學者說我在研討會過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7177.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7200.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我的口氣啊 或者什麼什麼 這些人不想讓人家知道的可是他的專業的見解這個部分我相信應該他也不會有什麼 除非啦 他真的有跟你們講這部分我就不要讓他知道了有這樣的學者也好奇怪 應該也不至於啊所以是不是 今天司法院也沒抗拒 沒必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7202.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7225.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
你添太多也沒意思他在研討會叫來 大家都是頂尖的學者專家你不可以叫人家可能叫阿薩布魯的學者來親自講講的 不可能他的專業的見解 他也一定是想讓別人去做一個分享那那個過程裡面 除非我難道你們真的都有足智嗎應該不至於到足智吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7227.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7248.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我在罵黃國昌我在罵鍾佳斌他給我罵你們不會去記錄這個吧那個應該是批批批批批批掉就好了那其他的很專業的東西很專業的東西來提供一下我倒覺得這個有公義性我真的這樣覺得你們再考慮一下好不好有需要我們現在機關代碼完回應嗎來機關代碼忽免簡單簡單幾句 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7254.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7268.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
就指教這個我們剛剛已經說了那個本院會回去研議的是好那麼我們現在給代表充分的時間做意見交換還有這準備工作我們休息十分鐘好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7995.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7998.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
好 我們繼續開會那我們大體討論已經進行了三輪那我們開始進行逐條討論逐條討論 來那麼在這裡先跟委員做個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8009.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8035.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
我們那個稅審法因為剛剛有委員表達有些條文希望能夠更充分的討論所以那些條文我們就先不處理我們先就其他的條文進行所以我們先從第一條來那預調剛剛有委員提出的部分我們就先暫時跳過其中包括第11條到第16條以及第25條的部分好 那現在進行名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8038.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8057.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
還不能決議可以討論啊關於名稱有沒有不同意見沒有那因為我們委員人數未達那我們先讓委員表示意見那名稱的部分在場委員沒有其他意見但是等人數到期我們再處理好來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8065.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8083.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
好跟委員報告我們目前進行逐條討論那就剛剛有委員提出有些需要進一步討論的條文我們就先暫不進行逐條的處理我們先處理其他的條文那這裡面特別提到11條到第16條以及第25條我們就先暫不處理來委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8088.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8106.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
那個不好意思喔 主席那個可不可以就清楚的說這幾個條文今天不處理因為你講暫不處理我怕第二輪回來你又要處理是不是可以我現在就要求這些關於我剛剛所提到通則性核心的條文現在就直接先說就都保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8108.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8133.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那個跟委員說明因為在場委員現在的人數跟剛剛在大體討論的時候有明顯的差別那容我在人數多一點的時候再徵詢委員會意見好不好那因為目前的人數我們可以對一些比較程序上的條文比較之前委員沒有太多意見的部分我們可以先進行主條討論好不好那我們剛剛是詢問名稱的部分請問委員會有沒有不同意見或其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8135.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8153.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那如果沒有的話,那我們就照司法院提案通過好,那麼接下來進行第一條我們現在不用宣讀了嗎?宣讀夠了好,第一條的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8157.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8163.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
第一條條文就是主旨那麼請問委員會對第一條條文的內容請發表意見來請黃委員你們第一條寫說未促進程序經濟徹底妥適專業解決稅務爭議以有效保障納稅者權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8178.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8205.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
並維護依法及公民科學原則特制定本法我現在的第一個問題是程序經濟的這個詞對一般有在處理訴訟法的學術研究者或是對一般的學生來講不會太陌生但是我真的在法條看到這樣子的名詞有任何其他的法律用這四個字嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8207.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8223.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
你們有沒有找過啊你要不要現在拿你的手機查一下全國法規資料庫打程序經濟四個字下去看有哪一個全中華民國有哪一個法律用的這個詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8237.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8259.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
你如果要把迅速這個價值因為我們在一般裁判的時候正確迅速是兩個非常重要的價值這兩個價值是處於背反分離的關係我想這個念訴訟法的人大家都有這個基本的概念你要專業要妥適這個形容詞都沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8260.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8285.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
你如果第一條你願意把迅速這個事情放成是整個立法上面的價值的話不要用一個新的詞從來沒有出現過的詞因為你用全國法規資料庫check你會發現我的問題你得出來的答案是我國現行法有用程序經濟這四個詞的法律案數目是零zero從來沒有用過 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8287.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8311.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
所以第一條我是不是建議為迅速徹底妥適專業解決稅務事件以有效保障納稅者權益就促進輸送經濟你就直接把它改成為了迅速把迅速這兩個字把它給加進去嘛來請為迅速徹底妥適專業解決稅務爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8314.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8320.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
這四個形容詞或四個價值你要怎麼排我沒意見啦因為法條寫成這個樣子我老實講沒有看過啦好 謝謝委員這個部分我們同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8341.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8356.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
所以文字上怎麼表達 有沒有一個修正意見不妥適 迅速 徹底 專業 解決稅務爭議以有效保障納稅者權益並維護依法及公平課稅原則特制定本法 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8358.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8385.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
順序是一妥適來來請莊委員我是覺得會不會回答的比較快黃國昌委員的意思我聽得懂但是呢因為這個確實是一般在談民事訴訟的話我們都會講訴訟經濟那因為可是本法涉及到的就是比較屬於行政程序法我不知道在行政程序法裡面是不是有揭示一個大原則叫程序經濟這我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8386.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8387.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
會不會是你們是因為這樣而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8390.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8417.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
包括我不知道 我說民事訴訟一般我們在講訴訟當中在講訴訟經濟這沒有錯嘛這個就變成說賦予給這個對給一個訴訟制度給老百姓就感覺上說這個設計會比較溫暖一點比較人性一點那可是呢那個是在講不管是在行民事訴訟或者刑事訴訟有這樣的一個訴訟經濟的概念那你們既然去提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8418.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8442.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
放到條文裡面去講程序經濟這個就真的又扯到剛我們會要求說學者專家在這個意見形成的過程裡面有沒有特別的看法我比較擔心的是說因為我行政程序的部分著墨就比較沒有那麼多沒有那麼深在行政程序的部分會不會有揭示一個概念就是程序經濟我不知道也很難聽到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8444.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8464.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
好,跟委員說明,根據民國九十五年七月十八號的四字第六一五號大法官的解釋當中的理由書,它就是針對了所謂的納稅一五人上為了維護稅務安定的合理手段,以調合基增正確,基增了程序經濟效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8465.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8493.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
計租稅安定之原則大概出現在4-615號當中但是的確目前我們沒有在其他的法律條文當中看到類似的用詞不過呢的確在大法官針對相關的這個納稅義務人的這些事件事項當中的確有用到了所謂的程序經濟效能計租稅安定之原則來 那麼是不是請委員們還有機關代表要不要再做一些深論或討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8508.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8520.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
像主席還有委員報告因為這一次那個修法有一個那個重點就是希望說那個稅務的紛爭可以整個徹底的一次解決那也當然就是說在這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8522.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8548.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
目的底下呢就是它有一個功能就是要促進那個程序經濟那黃委員所那個指教的呢我想黃委員也同意說我們確實有這樣子一個立法目的那為了就是那個用語上的那個精簡就是把這個部分就是不要在這裡再重複寫促進程序經濟就直接用迅速這樣子來那個用文字說明我想那個目的已經可以達到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8549.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8574.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
以上所以文字上是不是可以有一個文字給主席這邊那我待會再來進行宣讀侯義煌委員的文字我還是因為沒有口頭口述為妥適第一個詞是妥適第二個詞是什麼為妥適頓號然後呢迅速然後再來是徹底然後專業解決稅務爭議是這樣嗎那就沒有促進這兩個字囉為了 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8578.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8604.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
未妥適迅速徹底專業解決稅務爭議以有效保障納稅者權利並維護依法及公平課稅原則特制定本法OK好請委員會意見做文字座如上的修正是否同意好同意好那我們就修正後通過好 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8605.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8631.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那立法說明的部分因為立法後面還是有出現未促進程序經濟的這些用詞那麼要一併這可以保留啦請問委員會那如果我們立法說明的程序經濟他讓大家理解那個迅速的目的用詞大概也跟大法官4.615是一樣的用詞那就保留囉我看這條玻璃好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8632.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8648.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
說明喔我看連這個條文的部分都不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8659.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8670.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
他倒也倒不是在講說迅速這樣子而已啦你說訴訟在講經濟他到底講的也不是迅速啊迅速只是內涵的其中之一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8674.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8702.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
先保留一下 再修一下這台也不安逸啊 讓你們再稍微修一下這樣搞不好你們原來的是提出來都可以把我們說服也不一定啊因為程序經濟的確理解上它這裡迅速是更為廣闊啦它是說不是只求迅速它是有效率的概念程序經濟是有效率的概念那這個經濟表示CP值很高的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8702.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8726.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
好 那麼我們本條先暫保留好不好 暫保留那我們再讓司法院再思考一下參酌4-615號的解釋的意涵跟本法條的目的內容上如何讓民眾可以一讀即懂但是又不會產生這個太過於簡化的理解好 那麼第二條的部分 那麼請我們進入第二條的主條 那請委員會委員表示意見來 請黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8731.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8754.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
因為我先確定一下基本上我們不涉及到組織法的事情對吧我們不涉及到組織法的事情第二個如果不涉及到組織法的事情他基本上在處理的就是由行政法院來加以管轄對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8760.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8780.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那我現在的問題是說你們那個第一項你們那個稅務行政事件的定義我沒意見那我現在開始有問題的是在第二項你們這個相牽連的行政訴訟事件你們是怎麼解釋的 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8784.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8809.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
什麼叫做相牽連的行政訴訟事件那第二個就這個相牽連的行政訴訟事件合併審理的時候他審理的基本原則是全部按照這個法嗎請注意喔我們現在只有在處理程序法的問題喔程序法的問題是在一個訴訟程序當中合併審理的其他案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8810.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8815.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
他原則上就會按照同一套審理原則來加以處理你們說了這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8820.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8846.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
我們之所以要定稅務行政事件審理法是本與稅務行政事件本身的特殊性所以有別於一般行政訴訟的程序法例做特別規定的程序法例那我現在的問題來了你要發揮合併審判的機能我可以理解但在審理的原則上被合併進來的其他行政訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8847.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8875.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
它審理的基本原則是不是按照你們稅務行政事件的審理法這個是我的問題如果是的話那如果其他的行政訴訟事件它不具備稅務行政事件本身的特性你要求它依照稅務行政事件你們本身特性所設計出來有別於行政訴訟的程序法例來加以審理它的正當化的基礎在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8877.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8903.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這個要說明清楚喔是稅務行政事件審理法要發揮合併審判的機能這個我同意這個沒有問題那問題是什麼問題是你在進行訴訟法理的時候就訴訟法理的適用是區別的適用交錯的適用還是統一的適用這個稅務行政事件審理法這件事情要講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8906.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8918.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個我就回到我這個Part 1的問題我為什麼跟你們一直要委員會的會議記錄如果連我都看不懂你覺得有多少人看得懂經理代表請回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8925.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8940.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
報告委員我們的第二項是把鄉遷聯的案件第二項是指與前項事件鄉遷聯鄉遷聯的行政訴訟事件然後讓他能夠合併整理那其實本來就是為了訴訟經濟的考量那什麼叫做鄉遷聯呢大概我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8947.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8974.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
標準大概就是說輸送標的跟第一就是跟稅務行政事件第一項事件的標的或者是他的攻擊方法有牽連關係而且事實證據資料可以互相利用的話那我們讓他合併一起起訴那一起審理那如果合併的這一部分他不具有稅務事件的特質 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8975.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8990.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
不屬於稅務事件,那只是程序上一起處理而已合併在一個案件裡面來處理但是他的程序應該還是要回歸到行政訴訟法的適用好,那我問題來了,你要把它寫清楚嗎?還是你認為這是解釋上的必然? |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9002.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9028.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
你要把它寫清楚嗎?還是你認為這是解釋上的必然?請說明如果委員認為有疑義的話其實我們或許可以在立法理由說明得更清楚然後避免適用上的疑義那你們所寫得更清楚是否有文字上的表達? |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9030.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9058.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
他就用不同的程序法例啦我再講的簡單一點啦在同一個訴訟程序當中針對合併的訴訟訴訟因為訴訟事件本身的性質不同依革該訴訟事件本身的特性各自適用其相應的程序法例我這樣的說明應該是你們這個立法的意義是意旨嘛如果這個是你們立法的意旨的話你們一定要做補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9059.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9088.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那要不然的話以後一定會產生爭議好請廳長說明我們等一會提供文字好嗎我們在立法理由裡面把它說明清楚好那麼這這個部分條文部分我們可以在立法理由當中進行補充那麼第二條的部分我們就等候機關代表進行文字上的研擬那我們跟第一條一樣先暫時保留我們現在看第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9092.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9109.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
好 第三條文字內容相對簡短 請問委員會對於第三條的內容沒有意見好 請問如果沒有意見的話 我們第三條照司法院提案通過好 接下來我們看第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9112.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9136.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
來第四條請表達你們那個第四條就有關於當事人能力的界定跟現在行政訴訟法裡面就當事人能力的界定一樣的地方就不要複述差別到底在哪裡我的意思是說什麼樣的東西在你們的概念裡有當事人能力但是他卻不在行政訴訟法被認為有當事人能力的射程範圍內 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9138.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9143.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
你一定要有這個東西這個法條的規範才有實意那個東西是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9145.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9174.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
各位委員報告因為當事人能力一般大概就是自然人法人絕對是沒有問題那行政訴訟法有特別規定就是中央地方機關也有當事人能力那在這裡特別在第一項認為說依照租稅法享有權利負擔義務就有當事人能力是因為在一些所得稅法的規定他並不以尤其是外國公司他可能在台灣他只有有固定的營業場所而已那因為在稅法上有很多等一下先停一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9175.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9178.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那外國公司在行政訴訟上沒有當事人的能力嗎有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9185.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9213.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們是法律人 針對法律問題討論啦我剛剛問題很清楚啦你把它重新我們剛剛一開始在廣泛討論已經建立了這個特別法的規範原則嘛就是行政訴訟法的規定沒有辦法完全適用到稅務行政案件當中有特別規定必要者才有必要在這邊做特別規定嘛所以我剛剛的問題就是你的腦袋裡面所想的到底什麼東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9214.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9242.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
在稅務行政案件當中有當事人能力但是卻在目前的行政訴訟法的當事人能力設成範圍所不及的他可能就是外國公司可是他並沒有在台灣經過允許設立然後他可能只是在台灣設有一個固定的營業常識是啊 那個不就非法人團體嗎行政訴訟法第22條自然的法人中央地方機關非法人團體有當事人能力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9247.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9275.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
非法人團體他還是有一些像他要有固定的組織所以我就問你請你回去查我們實務上的見解好不好外國公司之前還有認許制度的沒有認許的話依照最高法院的判例他還是非法人團體拜託這是基本的訴訟法的規定這基本訴訟法的概念外國公司不是非法人團體你確定你要在立法院講這種話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9278.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9282.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
有修過訴訟法的法律系的學生會校委你確定嗎好那我們第四條的部分請機關代表就剛剛委員所詢問的部分做個釐清那我們接下來進行第五條來第五條主條請來黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9306.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9321.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
不好意思喔 第五條我就徹底看不懂啊經訴願程序的稅務行政訴訟以原處分機關為被告那基本上面你現在是在處理有關於當事人事格的問題嗎沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9324.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9341.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
你在處理當事人 那你的這個當事人資格的界定應該就是跟你的訴訟標的有關係嘛如果你做這樣子的界定的話 代表的是說你在客觀上面所擇定的訴訟標的是原來的課稅處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9343.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9358.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以你才會在當事人事格的選擇上面選擇是以原處分機關來當作被告我的想法應該是沒有錯吧那現在下一個實際上面的問題是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9369.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9384.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
你在這邊你明明其實要處理的是訴訟標的問題那為什麼在這邊會用被告事格的方式的規範形式來呈現我簡單的這樣講在訴訟法裡面我們第一步是先確定訴訟標的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9393.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9417.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
訴訟標的確定完了以後你大概就可以確定就該訴訟標的誰有處分權誰就有訴訟實施權當事人事格的概念是僅僅環扣的訴訟標的來加以界定的那你在這邊你為什麼不單刀直入的就去處理說我要界定的訴訟標的到底是什麼怎麼會繞一個彎 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9421.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9439.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
是啊所以我就說我看你們這個法庭我看得很痛苦嘛突然在第四條的時候出現一個當事人事格的規定第二個但書的部分但訴願決定第一次侵害第三人之權利或法律上利益以訴願決定機關為被告那 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9444.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9461.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這個單書等一下你好好解釋一下我現在抽象起來就變成了是有一個原行政處分可能是個課稅處分接下來又有個訴願決定你的訴訟標的是原處分加訴願決定還是只有訴願決定在單書的情況那如果是原處分加訴願決定的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9472.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9495.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
那被告冊的當事人事格是誰?那什麼叫做第一次侵害?有第二次侵害嗎?有第三次侵害嗎?這個第一次侵害的概念到底是什麼?我真的必須要老實跟你們講,我完全看不懂。是不是給你們好好的說明一下,我知道行政處分有第三人效力,行政處分有第三人效力so what? |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9495.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9516.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
在什麼樣的情況之下訴願決定所產生的第三人效力侵害到第三人那你如果侵害到第三人以該訴願決定來當作訴訟標的的時候那當然就被告事格我們會做一些選擇但我現在的問題是在於說那是原處分的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9518.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9542.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
原處分發生效力的相對人跟侵害到第三人的時候的相對人他們兩個是固有必要共同被告嗎就是第五條到底在講什麼是不是可以再進一步講得更清楚一點好 經過代表陳廷長請說明第五條其實他是在界定就是說我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9543.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9562.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
訴訟的被告和適當的當事人到底是誰那當然就是要經過訴願程序的以原處分機關為被告那這是剛才委員已經明確的說明那我們但書規範的情形是在講說在第三人效力處分那尤其是在競爭者訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9565.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9581.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
就是說今天如果原處分是原來是對一個第三人有利益的有利益的訴訟有利益的一個結果那結果這個處分的相對人一定是不服嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9581.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9605.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
因為第三人取得這個利益所以他就一定會打訴願嘛結果訴願就認為說那你訴願有道理我就去撤銷了原處分那所以其實就是第一次去侵害到原來原處分對這個第三人有利益的這樣一個情形那所以這個就叫做訴願決定第一次侵害到第三人的這個法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9606.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9617.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
權力或法律上利益,因此這個時候因為是訴願決定的結果侵害到原來這個第三人,所以在這個情形之下是可以以訴願機關為被告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9622.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9646.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
你以後講一個比較具體的例子好不好那你的訴願決定也有可能那個訴願決定未必是全勝全敗的問題啊也有互有勝敗的問題啊那我如果就原處分訴願決定機關只撤銷一部的話那你剛剛所講的本來的相對人跟被涉及到的第三人他們兩個各自有不爽啊一人贏一半啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9647.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9672.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
那這個時候你的被告是誰 你的被告是原處分機關再加上素驗機關嗎所以我就說你拿具體的例子出來講因為你剛抽象的把立法理由再用更抽象的文字再講一次對整個問題的釐清毫無幫助講具體的例子啦 這樣子我們比較好討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9674.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9683.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
那所謂我剛才舉的歷史叫做競爭者訴訟就是如果今天有一個職缺大家都在搶 是只有一個這個不是稅務訴訟啊講稅務訴訟的案子好我們不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9688.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9710.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我們現在在討論稅務行政事件啊那我們講租稅優惠好了就是說原來租稅優惠給了某家公司那就會造成另外一家B公司給了A公司那就會造成B公司相對的一個不利益那所以B公司就會不服啊那B公司不服因為它是利害公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9712.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9739.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
不好意思我先確認一下給一個特定的公司租稅優惠你們現在在界定上說那個租稅優惠的行政處分他擴及的效力是在同行的競爭全部都被那一個行政處分的效力會因此讓他們取得在訴訟上面的資格地位我第一次聽到這個說你確定嗎你真的確定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9745.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9769.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我們現在只是試圖舉一個例子來說明所以我為什麼一直跟你們要委員會嘛你腦袋裡面到底在講什麼例子這個例子不是現在在這邊做立法說明這個例子是你們法條頒到這裡以前就應該要先想清楚的我為什麼一直跟你們要委員會的討論因為我根本看不懂你們寫的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9772.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9781.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那你要來這邊舉例子就請你舉世界的例子當初委員會的委員們在討論這個條文他腦袋想的到底是什麼例子嗎這個是個好問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9787.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9810.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
你像譬如說有競爭那你說國家或者經濟部給A公司給他租稅的一個優惠那相對於我們這幾家來講的話會變成一個不公平的競爭那是不是這個時候你這個行政處分出來以後我們都變成一個四個的當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9812.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9839.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
我們是不是因為這個行政處分反而我們這一些人都可以當原告之事格會不會黃國昌的問題是這個啦我的意思就是說這確實涉及到當事人事格的問題會不會這個例子這個條文不是在講這一些你會發生的效果就可怕譬如說啦我現在給綠聯的業者很強的租稅優惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9842.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9866.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
這個租稅優惠的行政處分他往外擴及的所謂的法律上權利或利益他的設成範圍有多我如果是民營的火力發電廠業者咧為什麼他有為什麼我沒有這個時候民營的火力發電廠業者可以主張他法律上的利益遭受到影響對我來講這種解釋是殊難想像所以我才剛剛一直問他說你確定委員會在寫這個條文的時候講的是這個例子嗎確定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9878.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9884.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
第三人的權利跟法律上的利益被侵害掉現在莊委員再來翁委員好不好那莊委員請繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9890.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9919.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
例子好像 廷長你確定是這樣的一個概念嗎我當然知道說你這個整個疏忍決定疏忍決定完以後你會波及到無辜的第三者的利益法律上的權利受到損害那這一些呢 這個第三人呢他就可以以這樣的一個疏忍決定機關來提起被告 你的意思是這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9920.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9941.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
好請說明那再來翁委員請容我說明一下我可不可以先舉一般行政訴訟例子我們先撇開稅務的例子來講像這種就是說如果今天A他請求建築機關合法他建造那結果機關准了但是這個可能建造 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9942.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9953.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
建築基地的範圍其實是侵害到B的土地是一個違法的處分那所以因為這個處分就影響了B的法律上權利利物 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9954.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9978.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那個黃委員 因為後面還有翁委員我們讓鄉庭長先講完再翁委員對 就會因為可能會有越界建築蓋到B的土地上面所以B這個時候他的法律或者是權力關係就會受到侵害所以他就可以去提訴願去爭執這個原處分違法那結果 那原處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9979.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9995.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
樹院機關就認為說如果認為說你主張的有道理我就去撤銷了你的這個建築許可那這個時候呢那這個時候撤銷了建築許可因為本來提樹院的是B啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9996.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10019.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那這個時候A他認為說你這個訴願決定撤銷了我的建築許可那他不服啊所以他是第一次侵害他的權這個訴願決定是第一次侵害他的權因為原處分本來準嘛但是訴願決定現在就是去撤銷原來有利他的處分嘛所以他是第一次受到侵害那所以這個時候那他就可以以訴願機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10021.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10048.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
為被告那我們在講的一般行政訴訟大概講的是這種的情形那至於在講到稅務案件等一下 稅務案件來啦 財政部家你們看看你們都有參與討論的其實我本來就在請財政部表示意見因為翁委員這邊我先問一下 翁委員是不是要讓財政部也來先讓翁委員講好不好因為他剛剛已經舉手了那主席這邊再接續 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10049.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10070.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
是我覺得剛剛廷長舉的那個例子其實也不太適合因為如果說是第三人所提起的這個所提起的訴願然後訴願委員會撤銷了這個第三人所提起的這個訴願決定撤銷了原處分對撤銷了原處分機關所做的處分決定那一般來說的話就是會讓原處分機關會重審 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10081.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10100.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
因為他撤銷了他會撤銷原處分並發回原處分機關再再行審理一般來說都是這樣所以原處分機關他還會再做出一個處分那這個做出的處分就是所謂的原來當事人這個原來當事人的那個處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10103.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10123.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是原來當事人在訴願機關做他的訴願決定去撤原處分的時候這個時候他認為他的權利就被侵害了那如果他要進而打行政訴訟的話那他當然就是以訴願機關為被告好 主席這邊是不是整理一下因為的確聽長這邊是就實務的有稅務訴訟的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10131.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10154.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
本席這邊也是有一個具體案例過去才處理過那對照就是我們在場的財政部的複稅署那麼涉及到因為我怕說講具體的案例會陷入案例延期的討論但是我就也很謹慎考慮要不要請財政部可不可以提供相關的例證那我這裡既然大家關切我也稍微舉一個那個例子很具體 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10155.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10170.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
它是一個風電的公司在我們外海設置了一個風機這個風機的資金是來自於一個國際的資金的一個私募資金可能是韓國的那因為他們這個跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10173.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10201.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
設置風機簽了約那麼要繳印花稅但是這個印花稅呢在根據某種條件之下有外資投資是可以免除的稅率可以另外算所以到底這家公司在外海所投資的風機他們簽了約地方政府要對它刻意印花稅有沒有辦法適用是外國資金來台投資的相關優惠你看看涉及到多少地方涉及到印花稅的 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10202.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10226.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
地方政府涉及到風機的一個乙方的公司涉及到這個乙方公司的資金來源涉及到這個資金來源視我為外資可以投資台灣可以適用租稅優惠這個時候 負稅署就在那邊進行跟彰化縣政府 對不起不要講具體 不小心講地方政府的一些討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10227.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10244.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
提起業者提起訴願之後有一個訴願的處分那這個處分呢還是有人不服那就會提起要進行訴訟那這個訴訟的時候到底可能的這個被告會是誰是處分的訴願處分機關還是原來 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10248.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10271.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
稅的客政機關那這裡面就會有一些複雜的問題那我是很謹慎的想要了解說如果有適切的實例個案但是又怕講出來我剛剛不小心說出來不過風氣大部分都在髒話外海這個沒什麼好討論的啦那這種情況之下怎麼樣可以讓我們委員會理解第五條的它的設置的規則的路徑可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10274.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10300.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
對象會是誰因為剛剛廳長很努力的想要用一個舉例要說明但是好像這樣的例證呢不能讓我們委員會了解跟第五條的設計那還是財政部這邊你們有適切的個案可以提供來作為第五條的試模擬一番但是我要很小心的不要陷入個案沿襲啦因為畢竟我們不是在討論個案來 部長 次長可不可以分享一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10300.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10319.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
謝謝各位人的詢問基本上我們通常稅捐基金機關作成的行政處分基本上都是對當事人不利就一般來講 對當事人不利所以如果說當然這當事人不服他可以提起行政訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10320.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10344.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那所以前面的這個第五條的這個原來的那個文藝就是這樣所以原處分機關為被告這一類的案件到了我們訴願機關來講的話我們也只會就原處分做處理也就是當事人來做處理當事人做處理如果我們撤銷了這個當事人的這個處分也是只有當事人獲得利益一般來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10346.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10375.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
通常不會有侵害第三人權利或他的利益的情形那剛才鍾委員講的那個案例我覺得那個可能也是要看他我是不太清楚那個案例實際上的這個當事人是誰是像剛才舉的風機在國際資金提供問題是不管是這個資金來源是什麼因為納稅的課徵就是針對你簽訂的契約來課徵所以納稅一人就是那個簽訂契約的一方 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10376.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10380.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那至於你的資金來源是什麼其實在我們科學上面是不究這件事情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10381.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10410.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以我是不太清楚那個案例到底是怎麼回事他有不服當然他繼續訴訟訴訟機關就是就是那個就是如果剛剛講的彰化縣政府那就是彰化縣政府那也沒有問題所以是因為我們剛才我也詢問了一下我們同仁基本上像我自己現在是訴院委員訴院會的主任委員我也沒有看過在我們訴院決定的時候會有這個對侵害第三人權利或法律上利益的這種案例以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10412.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10427.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好 那麼黃委員請我問財政部一個比較嚴肅的問題當初他們不是這個法案延期的時候要找你們的人去嗎你們參與的時候你們第五條有發表意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10433.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10449.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們參與的同仁說他們沒有發表意見那你們為什麼沒有發表意見是你們去參與的這個第五條以看其知非常明瞭適用心中毫無掛礙所以沒有發表意見還是完全看不懂所以沒有發表意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10450.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10472.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
因為我是不太清楚但是我覺得具體來看應該是說我們覺得這種案例不會發生如果不會發生的話你們沒有跟司法院講說這個案子不會發生嗎我是不知道司法院的想法是什麼但是在我們稅務事件的處理上面如果連你都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10473.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10497.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
如果連你都不知道,您在稅的領域裡面我相信是德高望重、經驗豐富、身輕百戰如果連您都不知道,那你覺得全中華民國有幾個人會知道這已經不是說什麼本委員會的委員理解不理解的問題現在是全中華民國到底有幾個人理解這個條文到底在寫什麼東西要適用到什麼範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10500.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10525.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好 那麼司法院機關代表要不要說明來 請 副秘書長謝謝大家關心就是說會提出這個但書就是在制度上它確實是會有存在就是有需要的這個設計那可能我們在現在就是說提供的說明可能還沒有辦法就是讓委員就是這麼充分了解我們是不是事後我們再用那個書面然後把詳細的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10527.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10538.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
不是啦 我剛剛就強調了你說讓委員不是這麼充分的了解連坐在你旁邊那個身輕擺一站的人都看不懂了那好不好 那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10539.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10561.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
跟委員說明,其實我過去舉的那個案例,因為就我這樣出錢來看,是有一點可能的只是那個案例呢,可能財政部、複稅署相關接觸這個案例的同仁不在場那我也未便把這個案例拿來做一個延期的討論但是畢竟委員會委員所提出來的是蠻有道理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10562.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10567.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那到底這個在於邏輯上窮盡它的可能發生的狀況在法條上予以規範這當然本來立法者本來就要對未來有可能發生但目前實務上尚未發生的叫預作準備本來立法就要做這樣的一個邏輯性上的規範但是如果說已經實務上有類似的案例能夠讓委員會更理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10585.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10604.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
真的這個不只是邏輯上推論的可能實務上也曾發生那由於在場的列席機關代表未必都了解這個發生的案例是在什麼地方要存在所以我是覺得這個案子呢是不是我們先暫保留那如果說你們可以這個機關代表可以找到 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10606.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10634.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
這個立法之前有類似的案例有遭逢到第五條的狀況那或許委員會就可能更清楚的明瞭說不定待會我也可以私下把那個案例呢提供給司法院跟負稅財政部我們拿來比對一下因為那個涉及的人員相當多因為呢印花稅免了但是資金提供者可能就面對到他要不要去承擔其他的資金調度的其他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10635.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10650.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
不立處分這個都是有可能在實際案例上遇到的只是因為限於我們委員會討論的時間可能未必在這裡做太多深入的個案研析如果有適切的例子我想本案呢本條我們先暫保留那如果有適切的我們再拉回來討論好那來請公委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10654.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10670.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
是我在這裡還是要提醒那個司法院喔就是因為你們現在第五條的但書的設計他的確就是破壞了現在整個行政訴訟訴願的階制度就但書的這個部分也說決定機關為被告這現在有其他的立法例嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10672.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10692.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
這就是目前行政訴訟的限制 就是這麼運作的好 來莊委員不過這個好像都沒講清楚啦第二條 你就把它看說你如果說一個行政處分 你經過了訴願程序有經過訴願程序的 你原處分機關來當被告 這合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10694.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10702.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
這更合理嘛 就是說你作出一個行政處分後 要有所完結好 原處分機關當被告但是你說這個訴願決定這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10708.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10724.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
原機關做出一個行政處分出來以後我不服我來提取訴願然後我這個訴願假設我是向行政院你各部會我就直接向行政院那他做出一個處分那行政院你做出這樣的一個訴願決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10726.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10745.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
不然沒我的事 你是那個當事人不服他提起訴願而已啊你做出來了親愛到我們這些第三人的法律上的權利或者法律上的利益那這些抽象的條文裡面都可以想像 都可以想像可是具體的個案裡面我確實是比較 廁長你跟我說不能想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10748.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10770.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
是 你的意思就不能想像嘛你都沒辦法去想像那你說叫廳長來舉一個這個稅務行政上裡面的可能有一點點我不知道會不會我不知道你的專長在哪一個部分是不是稅務還是哪一部分那似乎我們在審一個我們不能舉一個例子出來的條文也好奇怪喔我說實在話應該是這樣你這個要解決這樣的條文的安排的一個設計概念都通啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10778.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10801.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
概念就是說你這個設懲裡面只要這個原來的行政指揮官告了無關的你把他撤銷掉反而你這個訴認決定侵害到我們第三人法律上的一個權利的那我們這些假設是當事人適可的話那我以你這個撤銷決定的機關當被告這個也都可以合理而且問題就是說例子舉不出來那我們要解決什麼你想你財政部算多少呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10807.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10815.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
你們是罪魁禍首 幾乎都是你們你們全部都拔鵝毛給人民最多不利益的是你們但是這個條文的設計原來司法院提出來這個條文的設計應該是要解決掉說這個財政部 財政部這時候是太空了 都給別人求職把他們撤銷掉 站在比較讓人民有多一個機會可是財政部又認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10835.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10855.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
不會發生這種事情你那個案子也跟稅務行政裡面要含涉進來又不太對我在溯源會是沒有看過我們溯源決定會對於第三人的權益受損 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10856.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10881.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
或者是侵害他的利益目前是沒有這樣的案例其實你這個案子就是在講當事人到底要提起這個訴訟是不是我的問題因為我們沒有對那個人造成損害所以他是不是適格作為你們會 會造成損害只是說這個損害的人他是不是適格去以這個訴認決定機關當被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10884.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10909.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
因為我們通常就是一般來講我們都是對原處分機關或者是他的那個原來的當事人來做成訴願決定那訴願決定如果是對當事人有利那就是撤銷嘛送回原處分機關去依照撤銷決定辦理或者是說請原處分機關重圍複查決定或重圍相關的決定但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10910.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10933.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們通常不會因為這樣說因為我這個對這個當事人有利然後呢對當事人撤銷了然後我會要求做成一個決定說那對這個跟當事人相關的另外一個第三人你必須要去追討他的相關稅賦我們不會做這樣所以你的意思就是說這個第五條的設計本來是對人民一個溫暖的設計是沒有意義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10934.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10962.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
不可以想像的一般來講不會對第三人有關係一般不會對第三人有關係你叫施維恩舉例子 施維恩哪舉得出來那我們在審什麼不是 我是想說我們這條到底要解決什麼你那個只是概念上通而已真的嗎那人家如果舉例子出來 財政部舉不出來你們要打屁股咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10963.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10986.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
這樣好不好 那個我們看起來我覺得還是請列席機關代表你們比較完整比較好因為現在聽起來呢行政院財政部這邊跟司法人這邊似乎對同一件事情有各有自己經驗上的理解是不是我還是這一條因為也花了相當時間我們先暫保留我們可以看看其他的條文好不好那我們現在進行第六條第六條的條文這也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10995.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10999.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
第6條要不要請那個機關代表列席機關代表先請做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11002.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11024.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
跟委員報告第六條規定其實我們是在處理稅法上的多階段行政處分所謂多階段的行政處分也就是稅捐基增機關在做成一個科稅處分前他可能會要根據一些其他機關做成的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11025.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11053.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
以其他機關做成的決定為前提或基礎上然後進而做成他的稅捐上的處分的決定那因為最後做成決定的是稅捐機關當人民不服的時候是告稅捐機關告要撤銷的是稅捐機關做成的這個處分但是事實上法院在審的時候很可能就會牽涉到前階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11055.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11075.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
另外機關他先前做成的一個決定所以我們會一併去審那為了要一次解決這一個案件的紛爭因此我們條文就設計說這個時候如果法院認為必要的話你就要命前面的那個機關一起來參加訴訟來輔助這個做成處 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11081.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11092.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
科稅處分的這個稅捐機關一起來參加訴訟把事實釐清那我們舉的例子呢就是像目前像那個傾銷稅反傾銷稅反傾銷稅的情形也就是說如果這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11097.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11126.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
因為他的要件是說如果進口貨物他今天零有補貼或者是以低於正常價格輸入侵害中華民國產業的話我們就要科反傾銷稅那但是什麼叫做他到底有沒有受過補貼有沒有以低於正常價格輸入或者是他有沒有損害中華民國產業呢那其實根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11128.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11139.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
細部的這些法律的規範他就說有沒有損害我國產業的調查這個主管機關是經濟部那他有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11140.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11157.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
接受補貼或有沒有傾銷就是低於正常價格輸入這個調查機關是財政部那最後做成反傾銷稅科徵處分是財政部但是因為前面有一段是說他到底有沒有損害我國產業的這個調查是以經濟部認定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11161.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11182.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
做成的認定決定為基礎那所以如果事後針對這個反傾銷稅的科稅處分這個決定的處分去打行政訴訟的時候那我們就規定說法官你如果認為必要的時候你就可以把經濟部命經濟部一起來參加這個訴訟來輔助財政部來一起共同來釐清這個事實讓紛爭能夠一次解決 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11192.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11203.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
請黃委員詢問幾個層次的問題第一個事情是第六條界定的訴訟標的是科稅處分不包括基礎處分嗎第六條啦我怎麼現在不是在討論第六條嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11219.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11248.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
你不是說多階段行政處分所以我現在就一樣一樣跟你確定那個請你回答問題用麥克風這樣立法院公報才可以有辦法有效的記錄下去第一個事情是訴訟標的是科稅處分不包括基礎處分是嗎是的 是最後做成的科稅處分你命他為參加的時候基本上你要處理的不是科稅處分你要處理的是基礎處分是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11252.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11277.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那個可能還不構成基礎處分奇怪了 剛剛你前面不是講的那個例子它是多階段行政處分是每一個程序中某一個機關先做成一部分事實的認定或一部分事實的結論然後在最後由於我這樣講好了啦就某一個機關前階段剛剛你用經濟部跟財政部當作例子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11278.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11301.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
就經濟部所做出來的那個認定你說未必會提升到行政處分的階段嗎但是那個認定的權責在經濟部對不對那如果認定的那個權責在經濟部的話就他前提的法律關係的這件事情事實上面真正有權限的是經濟部嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11303.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11322.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
而不是財政部嗎那就前提事實的部分如果真正有決定權限的是經濟部的話那你們是怎麼把他認定成說他是只用輔助一照參加我的意思是說你在這裡所謂的參加是一般的輔助參加嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11325.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11346.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
是用一般的輔助參加但問題是就前提的法律關係前提的法律關係真正有決定權限的不是經濟部嗎那就前提的法律關係的存否在訴訟行為上面經濟部就前提的法律關係這件事情需要受到財政部所為訴訟行為的拘束嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11350.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11377.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
報告委員因為最後這一種多階段行政處分他只有一個行政處分做成這個行政處分的是財政部那經濟部他只是就這個構成要件中的某一個構成要件他去做了一個認定他去做了一個事實認定而已所以我們還是以因為不符的程序標的是這個原處分所以我們還是會以財政部為被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11381.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11404.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我現在沒有在跟你討論被告事格的問題啦現在我在跟你討論的是這一個人為訴訟參加了以後他在訴訟上面的地位嘛現在你講的是他在訴訟上面的地位是輔助參加嘛如果是輔助參加的話輔助參加人的訴訟行為不可以跟當事人的訴訟行為有任何抵觸嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11406.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11428.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我們一步一步來這樣才會很清楚啦好那我下一個問題就是說如果前階段事實作為這個多階段行政處分前階段的事實基礎他的權責機關是經濟部的話就前階段的那個處就前階段你不要把它稱為處分就前階段的事實認定就前階段的事實認定在經濟部的權責範圍內就那一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11434.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11461.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
爭點 就那個爭點是應該以經濟部的意思為準還是以財政部的意思為準經濟部會受到財政部的意思的拘束好 經濟部會受到財政部的意思的拘束所以在這件事情上面就前階段的那個事實認定在訴訟行為的攻防上面那就是應該參加人聽不是 是當事人聽參加人的不是參加人聽當事人的你聽得懂嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11466.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11488.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
因為你把它借例成是輔助參加的話你如果是輔助參加的話你只是來當忙的啦不要多嘴啊全部以當事人的訴訟行為為基準啊全部以當事人的訴訟行為為基準啊好 那我現在問題來了就前階段的你所謂的那個事實認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11489.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11503 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
那是聽當事人的還是聽參加人的在權責上面你應該要聽經濟部的啊那你怎麼在訴訟法的規範上面去違反了實體法所做的權責劃定 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11504.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11527.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
要聽當事人的這是我的問題報告委員就是因為這些機關協力共同做成的只有一個決定最後做決定的那一個具名的要負責蓋瓜承受在訴訟上雖然他只是輔助參加的地位但是事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11529.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11550.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
如果真的原處分撤銷的話,因為他有參加這個訴訟他也會根據法院的意旨來重新處理他的那一塊而且訴訟上操作的結果,恐怕不會像民事訴訟般輔助參加人沒有什麼地位,因為還是機關性互相協助不要講抽象的東西啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11555.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11580.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
在訴訟法的世界裡面每一個訴訟行為它會產生的效果到底是什麼很具體啦就這個行政處分或是就這個訴訟標的前階段的事實認定當事人他如果表達作為被告機關他如果表達說我針對這件事情我不爭執我自認然後輔助參加的人進來說沒有沒有沒有這個事情我有爭執啊聽誰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11583.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11600.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
行政訴訟沒有自認的這個制度也沒有那個認諾的這個制度所以訴訟上財政部都還是會在這一塊都會相當尊重經濟部還是以經濟部沒有啦 所以嘛 這個就不是尊重不尊重的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11604.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11614.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我行政機關主要的被告表示不爭執然後經濟部有不同的看法那我現在就問嘛在你們界定的世界裡面到底是聽誰的是聽誰的黃委員 你是覺得第六條對他安排你覺得不恰當 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11627.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11650.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
沒有啦 我現在在說 他直接把他界定是一個輔助參加嘛但為什麼會叫他來參加叫他來參加就是對於這個訴訟標的前提前提問題這個前提問題有可能是他們所講的事實認定有可能是他們所講的法律適用因為他法條上面是寫就事實認定或法律適用的拘束嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11652.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11666.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那你叫他來的時候你顯然是什麼你要叫權責機關就訴訟標的以外的前提事實認定或法律適用你要叫他進來你要叫他進來訴訟參加其實最主要的目的是什麼除了提供訴訟一次解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11668.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11675.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他沒有辦法你除了讓他進來以外你讓他進來以外是進來的那個機關有訴訟參與的機會以後你未來不可以再對這個訴訟的結果表示不同的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11683.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11710.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
你不可以對這件事情再產生爭執你透過訴訟參加的方式讓這個進來的機關除了提供訴訟資料給法官審判以外真正後續要發揮更強的效果是他也要受到拘束啦以後不准再吵了啦那我現在的問題是你如果說你在爭執的是他前階段的事實認定或法律適用的話就前面的那個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11711.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11738.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那應該要在訴訟上面比較有獨立權能針對那一個前階段的事實認定或法律適用的是找來的那個選擇機關而不是那個當事人所以我才說你們這樣子直接把他界定就直接用輔助參加的方式去定位你找來的那個機關在訴訟上面所享有的權能我覺得太粗糙了這是我剛剛在問你們這個問題的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11744.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11772.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
請問代表有沒有要再做說明那個跟委員報告主席在這邊有一份剛剛第一條因為剛剛莊委員是說先暫保留那因為第一條的文字有已經出來了那是不是對就是印給大家好不好好那大家看一下如果說我們在其他條有稍微比較多的討論我們回到第一條的部分糟糕我簽了名了沒關係你們印給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11774.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11775.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那請在場的節目委員看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11783.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11809.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
你本來在行政訴訟法裡面你說對於訴訟標的第三者或者當事人之間必須合一去做一個確定本來就叫他來訴訟參加嘛然後當事人也可以去申請去參加可是你現在這個稅捐雞爭的你作者行政處分你現在是在講說具體所謂事實的認定或者法律適用的拘束的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11810.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11815.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
這個就變成又一個前提了但是應該命該行政機關輔助依照參加訴訟方國昌你的餘率我也是聽你的餘率是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11836.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11844.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我剛才說的就是這樣安排我這樣說你都聽不出來不是你如果聽不出來我要回去檢討因為 開始有時候你說了我聽不出來因為我們本來在講訴訟參加就是說你這個訴訟標例你說對董事人或是第三者你本來就是要 不能有兩期嘛就是說要合一確定嘛你現在這裡是針對說 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11862.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11870.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
稅政機關做成行政處分應受其他機關具體事實所為事實認定或是法律適用的居宿選擇做一間企業選擇你的疑慮到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11873.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11897.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我從最前面的問題開始問他進來的時候他把他界定成是輔助參加那我的問題是說就那個訴訟標的前提事實認定或法律適用他是另外一個權責機關的權限科稅的譬如說是財政部前提的事實認定或法律適用做決定的是經濟部 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11898.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11928.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
在這個前提的法律問題事實認定或法律適用問題的解決上在訴訟上我認為他要反映實體法上面的權限分配應該要聽經濟部的而不是聽財政部的到這邊你跟得上嗎你如果跟得上我再進一步往下講但你如果只是很單純的把它界定成是一個輔助參加人的話輔助參加人就是來幫忙的從頭到尾全部都聽財政部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11931.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11959.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
我再問一個更前提的問題好不好依照現行的行政訴訟法你們現在腦袋在想的東西依照現行的行政訴訟法假設今天沒有這個特別法你們現在所要解決的多階段行政處分的問題依照現行的行政訴訟法可以叫他來參加嗎可以叫他來參加他是得44條行政訴訟法44條 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11961.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11975.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
但是你現在第六條是必要指因必要指因到底因不因就在解釋到底必要或不必要所以你搞了半天那個一樣是法院為職權的裁量 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11977.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11998.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
我這樣講應該沒錯嘛你可能一般的人看說一個得一個應得就是可以 應就是應該但是你在應該前面又放了一個不確定的法律概念必要值應那當你是必要值應的時候你的裁量權就化身在到底必不必要的解釋上嘛所以我 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12000.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12008.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
你們這一條要解決的問題現在在行政訴訟法裡面是不是沒辦法解決提升到這裡反而可以解決這是我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12010.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12025.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
報告委員是因為行政訴訟法44條如果按照限制的話法院認為有必要的話是得命他參加但是其實我們在研修過程中認為想說一次徹底解決問題所以認為說其實應該要把前面的那個機關一起讓他進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12033.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12057.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
不是啊 那你如果這樣子的話 於必要時這四個字你要刪掉嗎對 沒有 我們本來是規定是因啦因為 所以就跟行政訴訟法有所區別我們認為更強烈 應該要讓他一定要進來參加不是啊但是我們又考慮到說但是你最後有要進來的時候那你就是看他必不必要啊但是有一些訴訟的情形 當事人他可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12059.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12084.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
不去爭執前面的那一塊他反而是爭執後面也就是做成處分的這個民意機關的這一段的他才是他的爭議的所在那我們就認為說那如果一律要命前面當成不爭執的那個機關一起進來那其實是沒有訴訟實施那你如果是按照你這樣子的想法的話那你法條就不應該這樣寫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12085.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12097.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
你法條應該要把它寫成說什麼行政法院與當事人爭執是因命啊就不是必要啦當事人有爭執的時候就要把他叫來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12101.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12125.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
其實我看你們這個規定也是有點話蛇添足其實就回到原來的行政訴訟法的規定不是就沒有話蛇添足是法理解釋的問題因為這確實是有矛盾的問題前後矛盾這個我們規定的強度其實是比較強的原則上你如果這樣的話你就不用必要時就直接因嗎就是我剛才考量就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12126.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12128.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我們先處理會議時間因為上午會議結局時間將屆我們先處理會議時間上午會議繼續進行議程所列事項稍後我們會討論狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12143.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12169.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
中間會預計休一小時用餐之後再繼續開會討論因為委員的討論相當熱烈我也不好去用剛性的方式去切斷幾點到幾點那我就讓討論繼續走那我們先處理上午的開會時間那在這個同時呢也跟委員報告大家手頭上桌面上應該有兩份資料一個是剛剛我們的第一條的建議修正的建議那剛剛的修正建議的文字內容呢已經是有讀過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12170.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12196.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
那只是在說明的部分那麼莊委員這邊有一些看法那莊委員看一看因為我們將文字修正之後後面的說明還是有提到程序經濟這樣的一個比較完整的概念不過在法條文字上做比較精簡的表達那想回過來徵詢我們委員會對於第一條剛剛的內容部分可否確認大家看到沒有 那個就是第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12204.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12218.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
好啦 有妥適就可以了好 妥適好那我們剛剛暫保留的第一條我們就按文字修正內容通過好 謝謝那剛剛呢 因為在討論到第二條的時候呢是有委員建議到是不是可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12219.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12244.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那個立法說明的部分補充上去大家看到一個雙面的那一張雙面的那一張是在立法理由的第二點的最後三行至於相牽連行政訴訟事件之審理依各該事件之特性適用該事件之訴訟法理那請問這樣的一個補充在立法說明當中有無對前面的第二項的部分有一個比較完整的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12246.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12275.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
好 那個列席機關要不要就這個補充內容再做深論第二條第二條的立法說明的第二點最後那三行畫底線的部分就是你們新增的部分所以要解決條文文字的第二項相牽連的部分我們在場委員看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12279.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12304.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
有沒有補充說明有沒有要補充 沒有 那請問委員 各位委員的意見還是不太清楚 這個是用該事件的訴訟法例還是訴訟規定呢請將 翁委員你將問題要他們回答什麼問題就他這裡的訴訟法例訴訟法例多增加劃線的這個部分其實還是不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12309.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12310.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那個內政委會的PVP在哪裡?我內政委會還有幾個? |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12333.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12341.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那你現在訴訟法你就只有行政訴訟法跟稅務審理法嘛 對不對 就兩個陳庭長要說明嗎 翁委員那不要請陳庭長說明好 請陳庭長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12345.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12369.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
那我們謝謝翁委員的指教那如果我們把最後一句是不是把它寫得更明確寫成說適用本法或行政訴訟法適用本法或行政訴訟法你的意思是說適用該事件的訴訟法理這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12372.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12386.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
依照各該事件的特性嘛他的性質嘛看是如果是屬於稅務的這一塊那就適用本法嘛那如果不是那當然就是就是適用行政訴訟法最基本的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12389.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12415.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
主席這邊理解一下就是立法說明的翻過來第二點倒數的最後一行就是第二段的最後一行適用該事件之訴訟法理把它再調整為適用本法或行政訴訟法是這意思嗎好那請各位委員他最後那一句適用該事件之訴訟法理更明確地講 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12416.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12443.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
適用本法或行政訴訟法那請委員會的看法來這樣翁委員可以嗎可以啊好把它寫清楚好謝謝那我們呢就第二條的部分我們的立法理由就修正如剛剛宣讀的內容謝謝委員會那我現在把它處理一下第二條條文沒有沒有修改啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12444.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12471.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那現在第二條條文我們就照司法院提案通過然後立法說明的部分按照剛剛的文字內容修正好那麼剛剛是在第四條的部分好像比較當事人能力的部分這邊大家還在思考那麼第五條以訴願決定機關為被告這個部分也還在思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12472.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12492.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
然後第六條大家也還在討論那麼目前我們有第六至五六那麼我們是不是第六條也先暫保留我們看第七條第七條的部分來 那麼第七條 那個機關代表要不要對第七條做補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12495.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12523.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
謝謝主席那第七條我們是基於稅務行政事件的專業性那我們就希望如果他的訴訟標的是在150萬元以上的也就是換句話說就是高等行政訴訟廳管轄的通常訴訟程序第一審稅務行政事件目前是標的金額是150萬元以上的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12524.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12553.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
那我們把這一類的案件也把它規定成為要因為認律師為訴訟代理人並且適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理的規定以上報告謝謝本條文我們在公聽會引起熱烈的討論那麼強制律師代理的部分來請黃委員第一個是當然我不是說在幫其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12555.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12576.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
專門職業技術人員講話我先問一下那個會計師公會對這條有沒有意見報告委員在稅務訴訟會計師是可以擔任代理人的因為他用到行政訴訟法的規定是可以的所以你在這邊所講的就因為任律師為訴訟代理人這裡是包括會計師 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12578.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12606.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
是因為他後面還有一句就是適用行政訴訟法你適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理的規定適用哪幾條我們在立法說明第二點我們一條一條來從哪一條開始適用行政訴訟法49條之一第二項等一下齁49條之一第二項你等我一下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12632.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12650.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
其實因為你第七條的規定裡面你這裡就寫得很清楚是委任律師所以看不出來說是可以委任律師以外的其他的專業就有專業資格的人所以如果說是按照剛剛廷長說的連這個專業會計事務所都可以成為訴訟代理人的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12651.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12673.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那麼我認為這個條文的文字應該要再繼續修正這樣對老百姓來講才更清楚啊而且第一省的這個稅務事件行政事件它的範圍是150萬是不是150萬以上那麼在你們的立法理由裡面應該要把它就講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12677.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12695.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
當然未來有可能第一省的稅務事件它的金額可能會有所調整那你們也可以說例如以現行法來講可能是150萬就未來隨著這個稅務行政事件的額度調整的話它也隨之調整這樣才會清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12696.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12709.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
現在好像也有人認為以為說是不是五十萬但是你們上次也有剛剛有講了嘛主要是以一百五十萬以上的案件為主我們一條一條的你說適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12725.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12744.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
你第一個適用的是49條之一的第二項對 強制律師代理恆定原則好 然後第三項第三項第一款跟第二款可以不委任律師為訴訟代理人的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12749.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12777.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這邊是只要審判長許可的意思嗎?第三項、第四項?沒有沒有,他第三項還不用審判長許可他第三項就可以不用委任律師為訴訟代理人對,本人直接可以進行訴訟然後第四項第四項有用嗎?會計師就在這邊第四項有,也可以准用就是可以委任非律師為訴訟代理人 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12778.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12804.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那是要經過誰許可經本案的行政法院吧然後你第二項說49條之一第四項授命法官就有這個權利了行準備程序的時候,對是然後還有什麼還有第五項 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12805.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12833.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
第五項的規定 前兩項情形應於提起或委任時事明之然後再來咧還有第六項第六項就是例外不適用強制律師代理的事件所以我如果申請訴訟救助這個可以不用強制律師代理那怪啦申請選任律師為訴訟代理人這個也不用 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12835.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12861.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
然後申請核電律師酬金也不用然後第七對第七項到第九項就是如果你是強制律師代理的案件你沒有依法委任訴訟代理人的法律效果好那除了49條之一還有哪些適用還有49條之二49條之二 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12868.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12877.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
還有什麼還有49條之3訴訟救助的規定但是你49條之3你寫的是49條之1第一項的事件喔49條之3 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12887.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12909.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
關於訴訟救助 就是無資歷對啦 你看第一句話嘛 49條之一第一項的事件嘛所以你那個49條之三你要適用是說你的主持要變成的是適用稅務行政事件法的規定嘛是然後呢還有就是66條 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12916.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12943.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
66條關於送達送達權限訴訟代理人有收不用啦 這個根本就不用規定啊因為你這裡面沒規定就不就回到行政訴訟法的規定了我們只是在立法理由說明就是說行政訴訟法相關的規定有哪一些是可以適用的幫大家彙整起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12944.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12969.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
那第66條有規定強制律師代理的事情就對了第66條規定是送達的是第二項受送達的權限不受限制對你把49條之一的第一項又把它替換成是稅務行政事件是第一句的主詞應該就是稅務行政事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12973.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12997.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
我是建議你們考慮一下就是要怎麼樣適用關於強制代理的規定的這件事情只寫一句話它在規範上是不是充足的發生規範的能量可不可以承載這件事情再重新思考一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12999.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13007.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
因為我這樣都要跟你一項一項下去對阿我建議這條先保留啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13010.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13037.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
好 那麼我想 第七條目前進行到這裡由於它在立法說明的部分引用第二點引用的相關行政訴訟法內容相當多樣那是否我們待會中午用餐休息一小時時間那麼請機關代表辛苦一點就剛剛委員所詢問到的這些內容的對照你們大概把它那個路徑再調列一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13037.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13057.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
因為的確我們現在跟著行政訴訟法的條次一項一項去看雖然是立法說明是有助於剛剛翁委員所說的因為一般在法條本文一般人只看到法條本文那立法說明裡面涉及到哪些路徑怎麼跑恐怕那要相當的訴訟程序的專業人員才能理解好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13058.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13077.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那現在因為已經在中午休息時間那主席這邊我們就先休息一小時來進行用餐那麼這個時間如果有剛剛上午委員在討論條文的時候有需要補充或提供資料的那請趕快準備那我們現在休息一小時用餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
17311.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
17324.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
好 繼續該會進行討論事項 第一案主條討論來 我們繼續進行第七條的討論好 那麼第七條呢 在上午的會議當中有委員對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
17327.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
17340.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
說明就是第一項強制律師代理的規定在立法說明的部分的第二點當中如列了行政訴訟法各個條文的規定內容那麼請問各位委員如果說我們這一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
17342.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
17369.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
先暫時保留然後我們等相關的那些跟行政訴訟法相關的對應的資料到了後我們再再進行進一步的討論好不好因為上午的有意見的委員目前尚未到場那我們為了尊重有發言委員的意見我們先暫保留好不好好謝謝莊委員那我們現在進行第8條那第8條的部分是關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
17373.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
17376.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
第八條陳儒主席講的是我們為了要貫徹原處分主義因為之前的稅務訴訟常常礙於 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
17394.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
17418.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
稅捐基增機關分次做成不同的處分或者是礙於我們怕撤銷到原處分之後會離於核科期間所以我們實務上的做法就是常常都只是去撤到複查決定而不急於原處分但是因為這一次配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
17419.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
17441.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我們希望貫徹原處分主義同時也配合稅捐基增法21條第三項到第六項已經增訂了合科期間的時效不完成的適由因此我們也參考了德國的財務法院法的規定關於原處分主義精神的規定訂定本條 以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
17442.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
17471.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
好 謝謝跟委員報告接下來的條文如果在場委員沒有特別意見我們會先以就是照審查結果通過但是呢最後要做成決議的時候還是會回過頭來對所有的暫保留條文進行討論好 避免大家誤會好 那麼第八條我們照司法院提案通過對對 因為最後還要再先拿暫時嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
17477.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
17497.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
我們就先原則上沒有意見那我們現在不能做人決議我剛剛在詢問說決議是要等全部通過還是要逐條那逐條我們就是先原則通過但是回過頭來我們會在每一條再看過那這一條先設原則無其他意見好接下來第九條那麼請機關代表說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
17500.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
17523.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
第九條就是針對行政訴訟各種不同的訴訟類型明文規定就是關於起訴狀應該表明的各個事項那我們希望把它明確化請問在場委員對於第九條有沒有要詢問或不同意見要表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
17525.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
17535.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
沒有那我們第九條也是先原則無意見那我們最後再回過頭來進行確認好那麼第十條請機關代表說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
17538.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
17560.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
第十條是關於原處分停止執行的規定那目前行政訴訟法關於行政處分停止執行的規定在現有的條文是在116條這裡有一些相關的規定那但是這一次我們本法是特別優化了這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
17562.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
17588.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
並且參酌目前實務運作的情形就明定說原處分或者是決定的執行不會因為提起行政訴訟而停止但是在行政訴訟起訴前或細數中有一些情勢的話行政法院可以依照申請來裁定停止執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
17588.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
17615.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
但是我們這個法案跟行政訴訟比較不一樣的是我們又新訂了一個就是說如果停止執行的話行政法院可以於必要的時候依申請或依職權命向原處分機關提供擔保以後才能停止執行這一個是目前行政訴訟停止執行的規定所沒有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
17618.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
17642.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
考量的是在於說還是為了要確保國家租稅在權因為避免停止執行面臨到受償的風險那因此我們設計了就是在當事人可以命他提供擔保那第四項的規定大概還是希望是以像行政機關先申請停止執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
17645.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
17667.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
沒有達到他的目的或效果的話才向行政法院來申請停止執行因此我們設計了就是說向行政法院如果他在訴訟細數前的話僅僅是在於行政機關拒絕了你的停止執行的申請你才可以向法院來提出這樣的一個申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
17668.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
17694.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那當然我們也擴大了停止執行的效力也就是如果這個停止執行的效力他會給予到前面的基礎處分跟後續處分是一併來停止執行那當然我們同時也並隨著規範的就是說可以依照法院可以依照申請命他向原處分機關來提供擔保 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
17696.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
17698.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
以確保我們國家租稅的債權 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
17705.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
17726.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
其他的相關的規定那當然就是我們這邊也明定就是說如果在停止執行期間的話是不得科徵滯納金的因為他已經依法裁定停止執行了但是我們這裡有設計一個他還是必須要計付利息 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
17727.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
17756.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
規定那至於如何計付利息那我們也是參考了這個稅捐基增法的相關規定我們有明定怎麼樣來計算利息的規定那當然如果這個做了這個停止執行的規定的話其實我們明文規定機關這個時候你還是可以做成一個後續處分也不會影響依法維保權的措施那以上報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
17757.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
17764.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
好 謝謝那麼因為這裡面涉及到稅捐基增法請問在場的財稅機關財政部列席代表有沒有要補充來 請 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
17766.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
17787.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
主席好 我們主要是針對第十項就是從條文倒數的第二項它講到說行政法院裁定原處分或者是決定停止執行期間不得課徵滯納金然後但是因為應該就下列期間來加計利息那因為這個條文的設計是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
17790.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
17800.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
連原來他已經遇滯納處分譬如說我今天原來發了一張稅單這張稅單現期應該要繳納結果納稅人遇了我們的繳納期限依照稅務監法應該要加徵滯納金但是他都沒繳因為本稅滯納金都欠繳欠繳以後法院當然我們就會移送執行現在如果說行政法院裁定說原處分或決定執行的期間都不得課徵滯納金 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
17819.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
17840.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
那這裡的意思是連原來他應該繳的滯納金依照我們的了解就是這條條文的設計是說他原來已經預期繳納的滯納金也一併不能加徵而且要已經如果他有繳的就要退還那如果說沒有繳的將來要再等到行政法院審 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
17842.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
17855.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這個確定以後再來處理那我們現在是覺得說如果是這樣的話會不會對於一些就是如果是依法納稅的納稅義務人他本來就是在限期內他就依照規定來繳了他並不會故意去延遲繳納這個稅款 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
17857.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
17878.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
那現在變成裁定停止前已經發生的滯納金同樣都不能處理的話會不會有這個造成對一線納稅的民眾不公平的現象所以我們是認為是不是可以佐以修正就是對於這個如果他原來不爭原來已經退還給他的但是他最後敗訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
17880.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
17894.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
敗訴確定的話是不是他原來該繳的滯納金還是應該一併徵收不是只有加計利息而已這是我們對於第十項的部分意見那當然這部分最後我們還是會尊重立法院審議的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
17896.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
17908.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好 謝謝各位委員報告目前我們在審理的是第10條那第10條剛剛司法院機關代表已經說明了那麼現在是財政部次長代表財稅機關說明講的是第10項請看我們的這個關係文書報紙顏色的這一張的正第13頁第13頁的第10項 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
17918.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
17942.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
是在左邊 那欄位上的倒數第三項第三塊 有第三項 滯納金的部分那立法說明是在15頁 寫在立法說明的第11點那請問剛剛我們財稅機關代表所說的部分希望在文字上作予一些調整請問在場委員或其他機關代表要不要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
17943.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
17963.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
有沒有如果財稅機關代表有覺得要做微調的文字如果有的話可以送主席台來我們來徵求委員的看法來那個先先翁委員然後再來由那個陳廷長說明要不要先請陳廷長說明好了好不好來陳廷長請就剛剛其他機關代表的意見做回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
17965.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
17978.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
其實訂定這一條我們是考量到說其實滯納金只是要督促人民如期繳納稅款而且填補國家財政因為人民遇期繳納所受到的公益損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
17980.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
17997.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
所以其實我們認為說它的性質是跟貸金是相類似的而且兼具有遲延利息的性質這也是4至616號跟746號的解釋的意旨因為如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
17997.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
18023.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
原處分或者是決定已經經行政法院裁定准予停止執行那納稅義務人在停止執行的這一段期間他就可以暫緩的繳納稅款因此他所負的這個這個給付的這個義務他的清償期其實就是可以延後因為法院都已經裁定停止了 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
18024.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
18050.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那所以我們認為說這個時候就不宜再依照稅捐基增法20條規定可予他滯納金而且他已經繳納的滯納金要返還但那只是我們又考量到說為了怕納稅醫務人因此獲得不當得利所以就是在他本案敗訴確定的話他就是要付遲延利息 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
18051.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
18074.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
這是我們法條的設計其實這一個法條因為牽涉到基增機關的實務我們當時在研修的時候也已經有請財政部相關機關的代表充分討論確定可行性之後我們才做了這樣一個條文的規定以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
18075.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
18100.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
好 謝謝主席這邊先整理一下這樣聽起來有點陳進朗意思是說他們的流程這樣設計先已經繳的先退等到敗訴確定後再去算你這段時間因為你該繳和未繳的利息是多少就以利息的方式來要求而不是用滯納金那滯納金比較像是稅券行政機關先以 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
18102.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
18123.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
當時該繳和未繳的期間所計的利息去算那個滯納金那我這樣聽起來是這個在審議這個稅務事件審議期間是不能算的那個時間是凍結的可是之前他已經遲的最後如果是敗訴了那前面停的這段還是要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
18124.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
18142.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那等於說先退還給他 最後確定的再跟他要回來是這個意思那請問那個財政機關代表他們這樣的描述對嗎是你們的意思嗎你們可以接受基本上是兩個是不同的東西因為我們滯納金的計算是按照那個他應該課徵的本稅每月三天加1%的滯納金最多可以加到10% |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
18146.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
18166.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
但是這邊第十項的設計是就它的那個就是該繳納期間的利息來計徵但是利息計徵是按照那個郵政儲金一年期定期儲金的利息利率來計算兩個其實是有很大的金額上會有很顯著的差尤其是如果金額很大的話那個差異性會更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
18167.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
18173.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
所以我們是覺得對於就是一般來講故意遲延繳納的這個納稅人其實他遲延繳納期間應該依法加徵的滯納金 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
18177.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
18188.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
如果他這個案子敗訴以後應該要能夠回復他應該履行的納稅義務才合理雖然有滯納利息的設計但是兩個金額真的到時候會有很顯著的差異會影響他們那個納稅公平性而且對一般民眾來講如果是誠實納稅的納稅義務人我一樣提起救濟但是我已經都在期限內繳納了改繳的稅款 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
18201.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
18227.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
那你現在對於未溢現繳稅款的這個納稅員他該加上滯納金你還不能到最後並於執行其實這是一個非常不公平的情形 以上說明我想委員會已經聽出差別了因為我們在受理陳情的時候就知道滯納金跟你陰繳稅款本金的利息是不太一樣的不是不一樣 是很不一樣那這一點 雖然我們要進一步的詢問還是 崩委員你要詢問 因為我們常常處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
18228.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
18255.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
是因為剛剛聽了那個就廳長還有部長跟次長的說明確實我比較贊同次長的一個看法畢竟就是滯納金是本來他就應該繳稅但他不繳然後呢所以所發生的這個這個滯納金那更何況就行政法院裁定員處分的這個時間點可能距離他本來要繳的這個滯納金中間又隔了一段時間那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
18259.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
18283.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
對 就現行的這個法律 就現行的草案規定的設計它的確會造成一個不公平的現象反而是鼓勵那個 就不積極繳稅的那個這樣的一個稅務行為人所以我建議說這個條文要修改如果今天沒有辦法提出適合的條文的話 可能就保留好 來 司法院代表 來 那個廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
18284.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
18302.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
跟委員報告 誠如剛才財政部次長講 滯納金是很重的我們的想法是說為了保障納稅義務人法院都已經裁定你可以停止執行而且我們還命你供擔保 確保稅捐債權不會落空 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
18307.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
18317.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
如果是因為法院裁定准許你停止執行你這樣子還要叫納稅義務人還是刻那麼重的滯納金那我們會覺得說其實是對這個納稅人有點嚴苛 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
18326.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
18346.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我是覺得司法院這個對民眾比較有利的一個版本法理上也比較通啦你確實啊你財政部當然也希望給太多財政部的立場你不用講我也知道啊但重點是說你確實是經過法院去裁定法院下說要先停 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
18347.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
18365.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
那你這個在苛責當事人說哎喲事後你這個本來喔本來這個地方你漏掉了全部要把它補回來我看就不必了吧好我是覺得這要死亡你現在在場委員的意見我把它釐清對人民也比較有利啊而且他那個有利也不是憑空掉下來啊也是以法院認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
18367.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
18390.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
我先給你停機執行,你要講擔保還是要講擔保我跟委員說明一下,我聽起來那個財政部跟司法院不太一樣因為滯納金在裁定暫停之前就已經有一段他要繳滯納金的處分了那等到法院開始裁定暫停之後,這段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
18392.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
18417.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
稅務行政機關是不會對他扣滯納金的但是最後如果敗訴了那表示前面裁定停止之前應繳的滯納金要回復然後呢最後判定應欠的稅款後面所可能因為持繳的利息還要記錄到稅款的本金去計算所以財政部的主張是說如果法院一旦裁定暫停那個之後不會產生不會加計滯納金因為現在在審理了嘛但是審理如果敗訴確定還是要補稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
18421.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
18442.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那補的稅後面到你繳稅之前有利息但是前面因為托持繳稅所產生的滯納金不會因為你有進入稅務行政事件審理宣告暫停就因此消失啦只是被裁定暫停的那一段時間稅務行政事件不會再跟你去計算那個滯納金啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
18443.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
18455.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
所以這裡面呢就發生在提起訴訟的時候如果發現裁定暫停那前面已經稅務行政醫院所處分的滯納金還是有效到除非後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
18457.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
18474.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那些人勝訴這個都不算才會消失嘛但是如果是敗訴了前面這段照算所以我發現我們司法院在這個稅務事件審理法當中翁委員所提到的跟莊委員所提到的還有剛剛兩邊所提到的這個設計上的斷點的計算要更明確那個時間點要更明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
18478.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
18495.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
我想市法院了解你們的目前設定的流程對於裁定暫停之前已經被稅務行政機關作出處分應繳的滯納金的部分一旦當事人敗訴稅務行政機關認為他本來就該繳至於他敗訴後所審判判決的應繳的稅額到他繳之間這段時間叫做利息嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
18506.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
18509.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這段時間要立行嘛這還沒有談講處罰的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
18511.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
18539.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
這樣好不好 這個部分請司法院代表你們在就剛剛財稅機關財政部的意見你們再看看你們的文字上怎麼去表達出這個區隔後我們再由委員會的委員來決定要不要接受好不好那現在在位置上呢 我們的委員的桌上有幾個東西首先是因為翁委員在上午有表達到第三條在通過之後呢他認為立法說明的部分還是要請那個機關代表做說明這是第一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
18540.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
18558.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那再來呢剛剛我們下午就上午的部分進行的部分有處理到第七條那第七條呢主席這邊是說有一個說明資料將那個法條的對應呢表達清楚那這個說明資料已經在各位的桌上了這是有關第七條的部分那因為第八條跟第九條呢其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
18559.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
18589.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那剛剛在處理的時候在場委員並沒有特別意見不過因為人數的關係我們只能說原則上是同意但是呢還是處在一個後來還要回過台等到人數到了之後我們才能處理好那我現在又一個一個來不好意思有點倒車請大家仔細聽喔現在第三條的部分應翁委員的要求請就立法說明的部分再跟翁委員做補充說明那翁委員您可不可以再提示一下您要求他補充說明的內容的增點是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
18589.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
18604.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
好不好因為那個條文已經通過了是在第三條裡面因為這個主要的內容就是未來是以稅務行政事件的審理法看起來是作為一個特別法可是我們也看到很多專家學者會認為說這樣子的一個條文設計可能跟納保法之間 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
18610.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
18629.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
就整個稅法結構來講可能還是有一些不太適合的關係因為就稅法來說可能還是納保法優先然後之後才稅源計增法然後納稅省法又是行政訴訟特別法所以我們的想法是說是不是可以在第三條的立法理由裡面還是把 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
18631.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
18646.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
這個納保法跟稅審法之間的關係能夠用一兩句話把它講清楚哪些部分是適用的是納保法的程序處理哪些又是適用到現在我們所講的這個稅審法好我想跟那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
18653.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
18670.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
機關代表說明因為翁委員他並沒有要去做第三條條文本身的那個做再處理只是說希望你們立法說明他寫的內容在產民稅審法跟納保法之間的關係的優先順序還有它的適用上的效果請做口頭上再做補充好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
18674.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
18684.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
對 口頭上做補充或者是說如果說可以的話是不是也可以在立法理由上面再補充再說明因為納保法也有它自己的一些程序的規定嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
18686.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
18703.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
對 所以就是跟稅審法這裡的一些關係 是不是可以用一兩句話把它寫清楚那個廳長 上午您有對於稅審法跟納保法有大概做個闡述那因為翁委員這一部分他沒有聽到 所以您可以再做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
18706.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
18725.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
應該這麼說就是說因為之前這個司法院有來跟我報告然後當時我們有講說就這個地方的這個立法理由是可以再補充加強對對對我跟委員報告就是說其實我們因為有一些當然我們是跟納保法有相類似的規定就例如推計課稅就例如這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
18730.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
18741.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
總額主義那當然有相類似的規定那如果碰到有相類似的規定其實我們都會在立法理由裡面像我們的19條我們都會在立法理由裡面講說因為什麼樣一個原因我們這邊跟納保法規範的是怎麼樣一個情形所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
18755.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
18773.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
我們認為說本條要優先於納稅者權利保護法21條第一項規定的適用因為其實在進一步報告就是納保法21條第一項它只規定它規定的是說納稅者如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
18774.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
18789.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
他納稅者可以在訴願決定前或者是事實審言辭辯論終結前追加辯跟主張瞌睡處分的違法事由他是這麼規定的但是我們19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
18791.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
18817.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
19條規定的結果就是說其實它是可以在整個訴訟程序中隨時追加補充變更的而且我們的程序也不以說是在訴願決定前或者是行政訴訟事實審言辭辯論終結前違憲也包含在上訴審最高行政法院它可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
18818.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
18834.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
他因為行言辭辯論而可以斟酌事實的這種情形當時也可以做一些追加或變更所以我們認為我們這一邊的規定比納保法在程序上的限制更寬 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
18837.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
18851.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
納稅者更可以適用所以我們認為說應該優先於納稅者權力保護法21條第一項的規定所以其實我剛才只是舉一個例子我們在相關個別的條文像17條我們也有做 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
18853.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
18868.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
17條規定跟納保法11條第三項規定之間如何適用的一些的說明我們在各個相關的條文裡面其實我們有做了一些的理由都有做說明以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
18870.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
18887.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
好 難問委員請因為廳長剛剛其實也講清楚了就是說你們在後面有些條文的理由裡面有特別講那有沒有可能就是在第三條的這個地方也可以就是再加幾個就是說譬如說以本法的第幾條可能就優先適用納保法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
18888.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
18915.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
或是哪些是優先適用碎審法的規定要不然的話如果說你從第三條這個條文規定來看的話看起來是所有的事件審理都一定要優先適用碎審法的規定而不是適用納保法的規定對所以我建議說這是為了明確啦就是讓未來的就想要更理解碎審法裡面的規定的民眾或專業律師啊等等他們讀這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
18917.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
18936.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
立法理由說明的時候可以一目了然好不好那個委員那我們現在來加文字我們現在來處理謝謝翁委員了解翁委員的意思了所以就是在立法說明的部分你們可以看在左加一些文字讓避免誤會好謝謝非常好那麼我們第三條照照上還是一樣沒有變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
18937.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
18952.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那接下來那個第7條的部分請教委員會第7條經過說明資料的這個爐列之後是否委員會他已經很清楚了請大家看第一頁部分他直接寫了行政訴訟法第49之1 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
18954.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
18977.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
然後呢 再翻靠隔夜 49-2然後呢 49-3然後呢 行政訴訟法66那第90條之8 98條之898-8那這樣就分別類就很清楚了跟行政訴訟法的對應觀就出來了那因此呢 請教委員會對於這樣的一個內容上是否接受這樣的立法說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
18980.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
19008.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我記得第七條不是保留嗎所以我們就是因為上午就有說暫保留的原因就是因為有委員認為他在行政訴訟法第二項你看到我們這個報紙本的第十頁第十頁他在說明立法說明的第二大點他都把它寫成一塊寫在一堆那現在他們的寫法就把它拆拆成49條之一49之二之三66、98之八很清楚的把它區隔開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
19009.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
19033.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
那這樣的一個立法說明的條文內容就很清楚的讓大家在讀的時候呢未來在實務上在試用的時候只要看到立法說明就知道它第七條的原文它的入境是怎麼走那個崩委員你有沒有看到這一份我知道這一份可是它現在這個怎麼併進來我不太知道你是說第二項對 這是一個補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
19036.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
19041.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
立法理由的第二點的補充說明我再強調一次是立法理由第二點的補充說明不是不是是對立法理由第二點的補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
19051.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
19074.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
沒有 我的意思是說那你未來這些文字會放在第二點裡面嗎會修正立法說明嗎那這個公式就大了是我了解我了解翁委員的意思也了解他們現在提供的資料這個資料是在就立法理由的第二點這些條文如何去適用他做個補充說明但是如果說你要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
19075.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
19091.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
那個立法說明變成是現在的這個說明資料恐怕在體力上他沒有辦法去表達就是要跟公務員說明的這個所以現在只是他們提供就是說明而已啦不是說是要修改這個立法理由可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
19093.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
19104.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
如果早上在談到有關於第一省稅務行政事件現在是150萬以上的這個事情其實外界不是很清楚說這個是涉及到150萬以上的稅務案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
19110.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
19138.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那麼就這樣好不好可不可以我這樣好不好現在我們跟委員會幫我們研究一下就是說現在的手上的這個說明資料是對於我們第十頁第七條立法的條文後面的立法說明的補充說明那因為我們在法案上我們委員會通過的會有本文跟隨著本文後面的立法說明那至於說我們對立法說明的內容的再說明要如何讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
19139.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
19147.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
適用者能夠去理解那可能委員會在最後可能要做個處理至於怎麼處理這個再想一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
19148.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
19172.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
而且其實我想還是很多的專家學者跟律師團體以及我有聽到有些民眾的看法會認為說一定要強制律師代理這個其實對有些弱勢族群來說會造成一個經濟上的負擔他本來就已經因為要繳稅這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
19175.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
19180.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
有所爭執了那現在又要強制他要再聘律師來處理稅務的徵送 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
19185.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
19214.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
所以就這一點來講我是建議說第七條是不是仍然是保留來我們還是暫保留因為這個是如列條文他並沒有做說明就是對第二點立法說明的條文他全部都列給他閱讀上便於閱讀沒有說明在下我只是便於閱讀那翁委員是說我們還是暫保留我建議是說直接保留送協商沒有我現在翁委員我這邊是怎麼處理我會有一套做法好不好絕對不會讓大家有爭議的東西送出去您放心 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
19215.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
19222.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
那第八條的部分因為剛剛是委員人數未達那在這一次詢問對第八條的內容委員有沒有其他意見因為剛剛在宣告的時候在場人數未達所以我們那個宣告就要重新確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
19257.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
19278.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
在場委員有需要機關代表在對第八條再做一次說明嗎這條有沒有意見剛剛是沒有意見那如果委員會沒有意見的話我們第八條是否同意照司法院提案通過好那這樣就確認了 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
19280.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
19289.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
那接下來第九條剛剛也是因為人數的關係所以我們機關代表做了說明之後我們雖然在場沒有意見但是還要經過確認讓委員有時間消緩一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
19303.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
19325.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
跟委員會報告,因為如果說機關代表說明後,在場委員沒有意見,我們通常就會讓他原則通過但是如果委員還要再確認,我們會等大家好,那如果第九條委員會沒有意見,我們第九條就照司法院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
19326.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
19349.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那因為第10條呢因為這個稅務機關跟司法機關這邊有些定義上處理上的程序我們先暫保了好不好讓兩機關有時間去就條文做些討論那是否我們就繼續往下走到第11條那11條呢是否請機關代表司法院陳廳長可以先做說明請11條第16頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
19355.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
19368.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
11條開始就是關於協力義務的部分11條到第16條我們今天不處理因為有委員表達所以11條到第16條我們先不處理請看第17條第21頁有請機關代表說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
19381.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
19396.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
十七條是關於證據使用禁止原則的規定那其實這一個規定也是納稅者權利保護法第十一條第三項也有明文的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
19397.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
19424.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
就是說他的規定是說稅捐基金機關或財政部負稅署指定的人員你違法調查證據取得的話原則上是要排除但是如果情節輕微或者是明顯排除明顯違反公共利益的話就不在此限這本來就是納稅者權利保護法的規定那我們17條是在這個基礎上進而再把它區分成為第一項是所謂的這個絕對禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
19426.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
19454.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
也就是因為他的違法情節取得是比較嚴重的例如他是用強暴脅迫、詐欺、疲勞訊問等方法這類取得的證據就是明文排除禁止那第二項其實就是把原來納保法但書的規定大概哪一種是屬於情節輕微或者是排除明顯有公共利益的話我們把它具體化的來規範在第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
19455.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
19471.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
這是一個相對使用禁止的一個規定以上報告好 那麼請問在場委員對於第17條17條是就於不正方法取得之證據禁止作為處分之依據的相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
19475.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
19500.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
好那麼在場委員對於17條同意照司法院提案通過請看第18條請機關代表第18條說明第18條是有關於督促當事人能夠集中提出資料善盡訴訟促進的義務那所以我們做了這樣一個規定也就是說當事人必須按照訴訟程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
19502.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
19527.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
進行的程度適當的時期來提出相關的攻擊防禦方法那如果遇時提出的話行政法院是可以把這樣一個攻擊防禦方法把它駁回的但是我們也設了一個但書的規定也就是在如果他提出的資料不會延至訴訟或者是對於訴訟進行的程度影響很小 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
19528.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
19551.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
或者是不可以規則當事人的室友導致他不能夠在適當時期提出或者是說法院為了個案的公平正義認為如果不讓他提出這一些證據資料會顯示公平的話我們都設有但書的規定還是讓他在例外的情形之下可以提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
19551.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
19573.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
那另外本條第五項的規定其實是基於確定判決計判的效力也就是說如果今天行政法院已經做了一個實體判決而且這個判決確定以後那你當然不可以再基於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
19575.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
19584.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這個駁回的這些供給防禦方法另外起訴請求返還同一個科稅事實的這個一腳稅款那這一個條文是參考稅捐基增法28條第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
19591.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
19603.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
的規定目前也採取同樣的規定那至於前面但書的規定設的這些例外我們則是參考了民事訴訟法196條跟276條的類似規定那這些規定目前根據行政訴訟法第132條也是明文准用 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
19616.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
19643.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
行政訴訟準又民事訴訟法196跟276條的規定以上報告謝謝好那這個是一個對於當事人因事實提出供給防禦的一些規定那一共有五項那第五項也嚴明他是參照稅捐基增法第28條第三項請問在場委員對於第18條的條文內容有其他意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
19646.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
19654.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
好那如果大家同意我們18條照司法院提案文字內容通過接下來請就19條機關代表說明跟各位委員報告第19條到23條開始就是關於總額主義配套措施的相關規範那第19條是規定說原告如果你在 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
19674.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
19691.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
你提起的這個相關的訴訟中你都可以隨時的來追加補充或者是變更足以減少科稅處分核定稅額的這些的適由那同樣的被告我們也賦予他相同的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
19692.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
19709.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
也就是你在訴訟中可以隨時的來追加補充可以維持科稅處分這個數額的這一些的事由那我們就是希望第三項的規定是行政法院可以在原告訴之聲明的 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
19711.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
19734.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
範圍內依照職權來斟酌這一些可以減少或維持剋稅處分稅額的這些事由那我們是希望在程序上我們開的很大讓當事人不管是原告或者是被告甚至法院都可以依職權隨時追捕相關的事由我們就是希望紛爭能夠一次解決以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
19736.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
19759.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
好 那麼第19條呢 它首先開眾民意在說明的時候有依我們本法第8條那本法第8條剛剛在委員會討論的時候已經是按照司法院提案內容通過了然後呢 最後它在說明 立法說明的最後部分也提到呢 優先於納保法第20條第一項的規定適用之這個部分大概前後都有做一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
19766.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
19782.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
稅務行政機關有沒有意見就提到納保法優先於 請這條我們沒意見那如果我們委員會沒有意見我們第19條我們就照司法院提案內容通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
19783.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
19787.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
好 接下來請看第20條那誠如剛剛機關代表所說從20條到第24條都是落實總和主義建構訴訟上的配套措施那第20條請機關代表說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
19797.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
19819.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
第二十條規範的是說今天如果稅監偵機關他已經在一個他已經先做成一個處分而且這個處分已經是在訴訟系數中那結果那如果稅監機關發現有其他要增加稅額的這個適由的話他可以不必向 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
19820.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
19843.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
目前的做法在做一個補稅處分或第二個補稅處分第三個補稅處分這種的方式他可以重新做成一個新的處分來取代已經在訴訟系署中增值的原處分那我們這並且呢還 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
19847.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
19866.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
這裡的規範是它產生法定的這個數字變更的效果也就是它當然就是取代掉原來這個訴訟標的程序標的的這個處分而且新做成的處分不需要經過複查程序及訴願程序那為什麼會這樣規定就是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
19872.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
19889.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
同一個課稅事件能夠在同一次的訴訟爭議中一次來解決因為按照目前的做法稅捐基金機關做成後續的其他的補稅處分它的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
19890.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
19911.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
會拆分因為按照現在的規定後面做成的補稅處分當然還是必須進行訴願程序這個覆查跟訴願程序才能夠進行到行政訴訟而且他是沒有辦法在原來的行政訴訟利用數字追加的方式來把後面的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
19914.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
19932.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
這個增加稅額的處分納進到原來的訴訟程序就是因為現行法的規定你必須要踐行訴願等前置程序那因此我們在制度上就做了這樣一個一個變革那同時我們也考慮到說因為沒有讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
19934.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
19954.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
當是新的處分再去做複查程序或者是訴願程序因此我們第二項就有比較嚴格的要求在程序上做了一些的規範希望機關能夠進行這些程序來保障納稅義務人的權利也就是說被告機關在 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
19955.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
19979.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
做成新的處分前他必須要給當事人陳述意見的機會而且要充分告知他事實跟法律的效果那同時對於增加核定稅額怎麼樣去填發繳款通知書我們也做了一些比較有利於納稅義務人的規範那目的當然也就是希望落實總額主義的精神紛爭一次解決 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
19981.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
20005.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
好 謝謝機關代表的說明 跟委員會報告一下這第20條大概是在公聽會當中 被說明為是我們這次稅審法的另外一個重點就是減少過去複查的程序 造成納稅輪它跟稅金機關之間相關最後的決定的延宕那還講到了包括數字追加這邊特別 等一下 翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
20006.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
20029.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
沒有因為這裡面要說明一下然後這裡面因為還有包括有立法說明的第四點有特別提到的多次提到的稅捐基增法準用或適用這規定所以我會是不是要讓財稅機關代表補充表示意見那我們再來做委員的詢問請問那麼關於第20條那麼財稅機關代表有沒有要做補充請 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
20035.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
20060.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
這一條當然是總而主義的落實但是因為我們它是就同一個課稅事件另行做成新處分那因為我們現在當然就是就這個稅監機關來講的話有的時候譬如我們舉一個例子譬如說你營業稅好了營業稅因為我們兩個月是申報一次課徵一次那所謂的同一課稅事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
20060.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
20083.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
這邊沒有很清楚的說明到底是就同因為以這個司法院的這個說明來看的話就舉的例子是像綜合所得稅像盈利事業所得稅這種是年度課稅的比較沒有問題因為我們就是第二次我發現申請稅就是並到前面的一期計算但是營業稅因為它每兩個月為一期 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
20085.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
20108.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那到底這個營業稅的認定所謂同意課稅事件怎麼認定在這邊並沒有講得很清楚那我們是建議是不是在說明裡面可以解釋清可以說明清楚因為營業稅的課徵它其實是每一個交易每一個行為就是一個課稅事件那也許你兩個月前的是因為你漏開發票可能兩個月後的是因為你這個位移規定給予憑證或者是怎麼樣所以它的情況可能會不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
20114.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
20134.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
所以我們是建議這邊可能要講清楚就是我們對營業稅部分應該以每一期每一期作為一個統一課稅事件來認定那另外就是涉及到的就是因為他現在把這個我們第二次核課譬如說你現在被我查獲逃漏稅捐然後你原來我們有第一次核定你已經走到行政訴訟了 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
20135.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
20141.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
那可是可能第二次你又被同一個公司可能被我們查獲說你這個租稅減免的部分申報不實還是怎麼樣那也許我們就會做就是另經發現應該徵起的稅件我們就會以現行的作業我們會另外核定好發第二次的稅單然後那稅議員他仍然可以對我們第二次的核定不服就走 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
20158.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
20166.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
現行的救濟程序他可以複查然後訴願再走行政訴訟那當然有些案件其實納稅人對我們第二次的核定他是沒有意見的也就是他覺得第二次核定是沒問題他錯了或者說他應該繳這個稅捐他就不爭執如果他不爭執的時候是不是也要依照現行的規定就變成說也要全部給他飛躍到這個行政訴訟的程序一併進入行政訴訟的程序來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
20186.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
20209.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
那這一點我們是覺得也許如果那些人已經不增值是不是要還是要走這個現行這個草案的規定來做處理這一點我們是覺得似乎可以考慮一下如果他沒有增值是不是就直接就就不需要走這個飛躍程序併入原來的行政訴訟程序那如果說他有增值當然就我們併入現在的程序來辦理這是我們目前想到的一些問題希望能夠提出來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
20215.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
20235.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
謝謝次長果然次長對稅很熟我們聽起來格外親切我們在選民服務的時候常處理到您說的這個案子就是第二次核克的內容有可能不爭議那麼要不要做數字追加強制進行還有營業稅是兩個月一次這也常常發生所以這個部分看看現場委員有沒有意見來 請問委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
20238.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
20266.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我想第二十條其實還有另外一個問題就是固然是落實總額主義然後讓所有的相關的訴訟就一次性解決可是如果說再一次的科稅的處分那麼會不會假設它是增加核定稅額了會不會有違反實務上不利變更禁止原則的問題就它可能原來第一次核定的稅額是比較少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
20267.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
20281.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
但是他再一次核定變更的處分的時候他又多科了那這樣的話會不會違反我們在訴訟法有訴訟法裡面向來的實務間接有這個不利變更禁止原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
20283.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
20302.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好 我們先分兩個部分 一個是翁委員的部分 先回答那另外呢 請提案機關對於剛剛財稅機關所提的包括營業稅 包括對於其他的稅種的平安所得稅的第二次的核課有些不爭議的部分有沒有要強制併入 那請先就翁委員的部分做說明好 廳長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
20305.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
20329.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
我想先解釋一下那個當然什麼叫做同一科稅事件這一個我們在研修會的時候也是委員們討論的非常的熱烈那我們也會預期到就是說之後也是希望給不管是給基增機關實務或者是行政法院稅務專庭的法官們有一個操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
20329.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
20355.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那我們也委請了老師稅法老師後續幫我們進行研議希望能夠規範的更明確那這個是我們後續一定會做的因為稅捐的種類稅務實在是太多了那我們目前舉的例子就是說以所得稅為例這是目前研修會裡面大家認為最明確的部分那當然就是說像週期稅營業稅是週期稅那這個時候是怎麼去認定它 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
20358.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
20382.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
去界定他同一瞌睡事件的範圍那我想這個是我們後續一定會請老師繼續幫我們進行研議然後之後還會有相關的討論那我們也一定會請財政部繼續幫我們表示意見我想我們的努力的目標就是大家能夠有共識實務上操作是沒有問題的委員的問題回答了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
20388.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
20403.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
那個翁委員的意思是說如果今天機關他先做了50萬元的稅額的處分那當事人不服嘛就進而進到行政訴訟來徵訟後來機關又發現有要補稅他又補了一個20萬的稅對不對那其實如果當事人不服 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
20410.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
20428.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
他也是會徵送那所以其實機關就這一個事件就是一個70萬元他認定的就是一個70萬元的稅額所以其實沒有我們覺得沒有不利於變更那只是讓納稅一輪可以把所有的通通納進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
20430.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
20451.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
一起來處理那至於剛才財政部代表講的就是說會不會有補稅處分那其實後來當事人其實不增值那其實我們在這裡只是把它設定成為程序上它就是法定數字變更成為訴訟審理的標的但是既然當事人不增值 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
20452.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
20459.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
那當然就最後可能就是機關就是維持機關當時的認定因為當時不會有爭執我覺得這個是訴訟最後判決的結果的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
20465.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
20484.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
了解就是程序上可以走這個路徑,實務上根據實際發生的增值或不增值,他要去做選擇還是這一套流程是可以用的,是這個意思那我問委員,就您說的什麼,剛舉的例子什麼五十萬、二十萬的部分,您的需要機關代表再做補充說明嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
20485.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
20505.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
不過就是這個地方的話其實還是蠻就是有法律學者他們就是有這樣的疑慮了因為這個確實如果說稅捐基金機關又在這個審理的訴訟期間然後做成了新處分增加了核定稅額那對當事人來講其實他就是一個不利益對 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
20511.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
20538.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
合併之後基本上我認為說要這樣好不好因為剛剛稅捐機關有表達他們包括週期稅的問題那麼剛剛機關代表提案機關代表也說明了你們後續會在稅法上去做跟護者規定但是就條文的本文的文字上不會產生那個問題就是你們後來研修之後的實務見解跟條文目前的設計並不會有任何的漢格就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
20540.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
20556.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
好 那其他委員的看法呢其實剛剛提到那個同一課稅事件看起來現在這個司法院這裡也說未來還要再跟學者們做研究可是你這個條文一出去之後大家立刻就會對於這個議題要就是要確定那個同一課稅事件的那個範圍所以我認為說這個部分還是要把它寫清楚啦對 那今天這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
20568.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
20577.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
這個條例基本上也是比較有爭議的我建議是不是就先保留我們先暫保留好那麼21條那麼是不是我們進行到21條請機關代表說明提案機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
20587.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
20608.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
21條是規定就是在上訴審程序其實因為我們的行政訴訟是採三級二審所以其實我們一個每一個訴訟個案只有兩個審計第一審是事實審第二審是法律審那所以在上訴審程序因為它是法律審原則上是不可以做數字變更追加或提起反訴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
20609.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
20626.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
因為如果做數字變更追加其實可能會變動事實因為法律省沒有辦法去審酌事實因此原則上是禁止的但是我們在這裡又設了一個但書的規定就是例外的容許 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
20626.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
20641.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
稅捐機關可以在上述審程序就同一個瞌睡事件另行做成新的處分所以其實我們放得非常寬甚至到上述審我們都還容許機關如果你真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
20641.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
20662.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
釐清了稅額你可以重新做一個正確的最新的一個科稅處分那就也產生因為它產生這個法定數字變更的結果那所以上訴審在這個時候呢如果牽涉到要重新認定一些事實那他就會把原判決廢棄 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
20664.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
20686.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
然後發回或發交管轄的第一審行政法院但是這裡是因為法定廢棄的適由是因為機關重新做成新的處分而不是以原判決有違背法令的適由為必要那以上報告也是可能聽起來是訴訟經濟的目的啦那請問那個財政機關代表對於這樣的設計是否認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
20691.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
20715.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
其實我們這部分原則上沒什麼意見但是他也是就是同樣就是剛才我們提到的就是病二十條的問題就是他病同處分的問題病同處分好那麼我想因為二十條已經保留了那二十一條是對上述程序那上述程序規定如果沒有問題的話問題還是回到二十條我們去做更細部的釐清那請問委員會對於第二十一條這上述程序規定是否同意那 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
20719.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
20726.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
二十跟二十一都暫保留 好來接下來請看二十二條二十一要補離婚啦來來 莊委員我是覺得二十一條這樣的設計道還好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
20734.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
20758.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
那些玻璃二十那個你容許 你像譬如說你在徵訟當中你容許處分機關去做一個對於人民有利的一個處分 這是好事這個我看就叫司法院這個 這樣的版本那個會診我們委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
20760.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
20778.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
不同意見大概就是說就剛剛的提案機關代表是說他已經很清楚講了這是上述程序的規定那如果說原處分機關做成新的處分那不是因為原處分有誤這時候的發揮的方式表達的意思是做區隔的我想是更清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
20779.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
20802.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
因為我們是要減少那個訴訟的過程中的一些重複累罪啦因為這個稅審法很大的一個目的就要訴訟經濟啦剛剛我們開宗明義在第一條就已經討論過了所以是不是徵詢委員的意見聽起來莊委員的意見也不道理那剛剛我們問委員在意的20條我們先暫保留了那21條只是處理20條的上述程序20條保留啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
20804.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
20822.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
好 那如果可以的話那我們21條在司法院提案通過 謝謝那第22條請提案機關代表說明是的 第22條它規範的是指說今天如果稅捐機關他先做成了一個科稅處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
20824.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
20840.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
先科100萬的稅額結果納稅醫護人員沒有不服這個處分已經確定了後來稅軍機關又發現說還有要補科稅的情形所以他就又做了一個增加金額的一個變更處分100萬可能變成500萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
20844.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
20860.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那這個時候人民訴請撤銷因為第一個處分他沒有徵送第一個處分已經刑事確定了他最後徵送的是從一百萬變到五百萬的這個處分那所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
20861.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
20883.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
基於尊重已經刑事確定已經不具可徵送性的第一個處分我們要尊重他刑事的確定力所以這個時候明定說如果你對這個你人民再來徵送的話只能夠就增加的那400萬元的部分來徵職這樣子那以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
20885.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
20898.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
好 請問委員會對這個條文有沒有其他部分意見應該很清楚啦齁因為剛審過預算他都知道這個意思齁已經減列一百萬了 同意了就減列了後來又發現了要再凍結五百萬那五百萬的部分另外處理不能再回過頭來 連減列一百萬都有意見齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
20901.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
20927.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
那我們第22條就照司法院提案通過好 接下來請23條請提案 經關代表說明是的 23條就是因為稅務這個科稅處分常常有基礎處分就是在某一個前面的一個基礎處分的基礎上然後它進而做成後面的這一個處分就叫做後續處分那如果這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
20929.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
20949.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
當事人對這個基礎處分並沒有爭執那到後面後續處分你才去提起撤銷訴訟的話那也一樣就不可以再就基礎處分規制的事項再來爭執但是我們也設了一個但書 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
20950.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
20965.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
就是怕這樣太嚴苛就是說如果是難以期待當事人與法定期間就基礎處分提起行政救濟的話就不在此限為什麼是因為有的時候有一些的基礎處分其實他可能他並 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
20966.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
20994.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
不具有行政處分典型的外觀人民可能不知道這到底是不是一個處分或這到底是不是一個基礎處分甚至他沒有附有教室的條款因此我們才設了這樣一個但書的規定以上報告 謝謝好那麼這個原理跟剛剛前面那條是一樣的就基礎處分跟後續處分如果基礎處分不爭議後續處分的爭議不能影響到前述基礎處分的確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
20995.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
21005.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
那麼請問委員會對於這個條文有沒有其他的意見來請翁委員其實我發現在這一次的這個稅審法裡面這行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
21005.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
21025.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
司法院這裡所提出的法條有很多都還是給行政法院有很大的空間就是你一開始你原則上又說他不能夠增職可是又再給當事人又一個空間然後到時候由行政法院再來決定他到底能救基礎處分來提起行政救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
21028.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
21053.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
所以如果是這樣的話是不是在前面就不用但書你就在前面可能有一個原則現在條文就是還是能不能就繼續提起行政糾結這些事情就由法院自己來來來來決定就好你說明但書規定原則上是不可以嘛對不得就該訴不得於該訴訟最基礎處分的規制為爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
21056.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
21082.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
但是你又有一個但書所以其實看前面有些條文的設計是一樣的就回過頭來又還是要由行政法院來決定如果是這樣的話那為什麼不就在前面的23條這裡就讓行政法院他可以針對有些特殊的狀況來決定到底他受不受理就當事人可以就基礎處分的事情來提起行政究竟這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
21083.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
21097.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
報告委員這一條規定的其實是在基礎處分他已經不能救濟了是他對後續處分在救濟的訴訟中他還可不可以再來增值前面已經不可以徵送的基礎處分那我們為什麼會設這樣一個戰書的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
21100.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
21122.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
是因為實務上我們覺得這是保障人民訴訟權的一個措施啦在實務上確實常常會碰到有一些你人民可能沒有辦法辨別說原來這個是行政處分我不曉得當時我就我不曉得當時我就應該要針對這一個救濟那如果完全阻斷他的這個救濟途徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
21122.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
21134.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
甚至到後續的處分你還沒有辦法再回過頭來檢視基礎處分的話那我們會覺得說對人民的訴訟權力保障是比較不足的因此我們才設計了這樣一個單數的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
21135.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
21154.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
好 謝謝提案機關代表說明第六條的規定是不是就第六條的但因為你那是但書規定要適用第六條那第六條您這裡寫的是行政法院與必要時的命行政機關輔佐依照參加訴訟就是要有行政法院的出面才能讓這個但書規定發生啟動是不是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
21159.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
21176.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
當事人可以在訴訟中他對後續處分訴訟中他可以爭執說其實我前面的那個基礎處分我不曉得有不可歸則於我的事由所以我才沒有在當時去救濟是給當事人這樣子一個抗辯的機會那如果認為法院認為可採 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
21177.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
21202.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
那就可以法院審的範圍就可以擴及到前面的基礎處分去那只是因為涉及到前面的基礎處分所以我們才會要適用第六條的規定要基礎處分的那個機關來輔助參加訴訟就是當它有這樣但書的情況發生的時候適用到第六條把原來的基礎處分的機關也拉進來嘛我剛剛看的就是這個意思嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
21204.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
21207.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
主席我們可不可以提出一個請求應該算是請求就是因為這個稅審法它裡面提到很多什麼叫做基礎處分什麼叫做後續處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
21223.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
21227.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
但是實務上什麼叫做基礎處分什麼叫後續處分其實在認定上可能會有一些爭議而且我們雖然機關同仁也並不是完全充分了解所以是不是這邊也希望司法院這個案子通過以後也能夠也許用一個令式還是用一個公告還是用一個像剛才那個同一課稅事件這樣一個就是後續的討論跟更詳細的能夠讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
21250.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
21268.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
我們外界瞭解 也讓我們所有的學院主管同仁能夠瞭解納稅人義務人員也更瞭解因為納稅義務人員真的 你問一般納稅人什麼叫做基礎處分 什麼叫做後續處分他不會 他不懂的所以是不是可以麻煩那個司法院這邊可以再做一些後續的研究跟補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
21268.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
21297.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
了解 主席跟大家說明那個法案條文通過後假設大家覺得還是需要有不是說明的部分的補充而是用附帶決議在要求未來後續的行為剛剛有提到有一些研修會或者是剛剛我們次長所提到的因為稅務機關對實務上基礎處分後續處分要釐清需要有更多的一些討論那其實這個東西若不妨礙到我們法條的完備之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
21298.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
21312.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
我們可以用附帶決議處理啦那我是建議說這樣的附帶決議內容可以在我們審的時候不管是保留暫保留還是通過都可以就附帶決的方式把大家的意識容納進去所以我是請教委員會是不是剛剛就機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
21315.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
21342.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
說的部分基礎處分後續處分的部分有可能我們要求那個稅務機關跟審查審理機關在他們的認定上有後續的要求讓他們能夠更一致性來 翁委員對 其實這也是我本來剛剛也想講因為不管是基礎處分或後續處分在現在的相關的訴訟法或是有哪個法規裡面是有特別是這樣子寫法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
21343.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
21371.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
對 這個可能也請司法院說明一下而且確實對於一般老百姓來講不要說一般老百姓可能連一般稅務人員都搞不清楚什麼叫基礎處分或後續處分但我再看到這個概念的時候就會想到這個常常都是可能從行政法學就是就行政法的法學裡上面延伸過來但是你又把它付諸於條文的文字那未來確實會產生一些困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
21372.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
21398.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
對 所以為什麼沒有在一開始的時候就想說要把基礎處分或後續處分的定義把它定義清楚請提案機關代表說明報告委員基礎處分 後續處分確實是我們這部法案所新引進的一個名詞但是我們在第10條的時候第10條的第7項我們有就基礎處分做了一個定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
21399.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
21424.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
所謂的基礎處分是指對科稅處分財閥處分或其他租稅法上金錢給付處分有拘束力的行政處分在第十條的立法說明第七點我們也舉了一些的例子什麼叫做基礎處分什麼叫做後續處分像我們舉的例子其中一個就是說像文化局 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
21424.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
21446.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
文化局登錄某建物為歷史建築那稅捐機關就據以辦理免徵房屋稅及地價稅的處分這樣子那所以因為這是文化資產保存法的規定因此登錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
21447.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
21474.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
建物為歷史建築的這個處分對於後面做成的免徵房屋稅跟地價稅的處分就具有基礎處分跟後續處分的關係所以我們在立法理由已經有舉了一些例子那當然委員剛才的指教我們也有預想到確實這是一個新引進的一個法律上的名詞那我們也會後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
21476.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
21491.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
也有請學者繼續幫我們研究那我想跟委員報告的是如果這一部法案能夠三讀通過的話那其實到它正式施行我們一定會定相當的期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
21492.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
21517.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
因為這裡面還有就是陳儒委員剛才講什麼叫基礎處分什麼叫後續處分或者是什麼叫做統一科稅事件我們希望能夠透過學者的研究或者是跟稅捐機關或者是相關的團體一起研議大家有相當的共識之後我們才會讓這部法案施行 謝謝好 等一下那個夫妙要補充還是翁委員要先講翁委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
21522.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
21541.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
在過去我們其實也都累積了蠻多經驗的在新的法制通過那個時候他會有一些新的那個概念產生像過去我自己那個金手組那個主辦的那個大法庭就是那我們那個就是在後續我們的經驗我們就是會做QA就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
21542.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
21567.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
做QA就是對於這些那個概念剛剛所提的這些概念或者說它實際上操作的一些那個疑義呢我們會在那個QA中詳細的把它定名那這些QA都會放在就是網站供給那個一般民眾就是他們要使用的時候就可以進來立刻可以看到很簡便的像是那一些流程圖或者是說這一種名詞的那個解釋讓他們方便可以使用這個法規以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
21569.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
21593.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
好來翁委員請是如果說是以剛剛那個廳長這裡解釋在這個第七項裡面後面說明理由就是以登陸建物為例使建築的處分為例所以這個基礎處這個處分叫做基礎處分然後後面的免徵房屋稅跟地價稅這個才是叫做後續處分應該是這樣的意思吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
21595.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
21599.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
陳庭長 剛剛王委員在詢問就是說是登錄建物為歷史建築的處分就為基礎處分那後續的處分就是指的是免徵房屋稅及地價稅的這個處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
21611.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
21626.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
是那你們這樣的話其實就理由來講的話你可能這裡不要應該是說前者譬如說前者這個什麼登陸歷史建築的處分為基礎處分然後後面的免徵房屋稅地價稅為後續處分這樣的說明會比較清楚你現在講說兩者又為基礎處分及後續處分的關係其實會不是很 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
21634.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
21650.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
不是很清楚這樣子的一個情況所以我其實真的蠻擔心啊因為就算是你們之後用案例來解釋可雖然是刮一漏完因為有太多的稅務的這個類型那麼就財政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
21651.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
21672.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
這個次長這邊你們就是怎麼你們在過去實務上怎麼樣去解讀像這樣的一個情況譬如說在科稅在防護稅的處分那他科徵的事實就是他科徵的基礎就是以他的那個建物已經被登記為歷史建物你們是怎麼樣來形容這樣的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
21673.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
21695.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
主席這邊先整理一下 剛剛貿委員講到的是我們法案的第14頁他講到了在第7點的基礎處分跟後續處分目前的立法說明是解兩者為基礎處分及後續處分的關係那如果對於比較不是那麼理解的人 他可能會說前者是基礎處分 後者是後續處分 更明確啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
21695.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
21725.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
既然立法說明要讓人家了解嘛你說這兩者是父子關係想誰是父誰是子一看就知道但是還是希望說父親是誰兒子是誰父子關係這麼明確就是這個意思大概是這樣好不好那個在我們財政局跟代表次長答覆之前呢我大概先做一些可能的處理方式首先一個就是我們第十條的立法說明剛剛翁委員提出一些指證我們後續如果可以的話比照剛剛前面的立法說明我們可以做一些修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
21725.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
21751.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
那第二個呢 剛剛陳庭長在副部長說之前你們說後續也會跟稅務機關做一些研商那這個會在施行法定定 施行日期之前你們會把一些相關的配套寫好剛剛那個描述很完整如果變成一個附帶決的文字的話那就會讓立法者更放心說通過之後 那麼會有在施行日期之前你們會做這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
21751.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
21763.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我想這個把它明確化那這樣的話我們的第23條大概23沒有錯23的部分大概有這樣的情況那請我們那個理事長要做補充回答剛剛翁委員的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
21770.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
21787.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
謝謝主席主要還是剛才提到因為基礎處分跟後續處分的文字都是在新的法律裡面才看到的我們其實之前也為了希望能夠協助稅監監官了解新法這個草案未來怎麼運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
21788.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
21794.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
我們也有麻煩的那個司法院來協助我們來認定一下什麼叫做基礎處分什麼叫做後續處分因為這個條文不只是涉及到就是說像他這邊剛才我們23條提到的他可不可以繼續提起訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
21805.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
21823.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
其實中間還涉及到草案像第十條第六項有規定說基礎處分如果經行政法院裁定停止執行的話後續處分也要一併停止執行那到底這個範圍到底是什麼樣的確定明確的概念所以我們希望就是說還是後續能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
21827.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
21847.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
請司法院來協助我們大家一起討論一下雖然我們已經去問過他們他們也給我們一些意見但是有一部分還是不是很清楚所以我們是希望就是說未來如果法案在施行前能夠大家能夠更清楚的就各個不同的稅法的規定或者是像剛才那個跨機關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
21848.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
21861.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
前面是文化局或文化部認定的然後後面是我們課稅處分的依據的那這個部分未來要怎麼樣來認定其實涉及到的法律相當的多可能到時候再麻煩司法院來協助 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
21863.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
21890.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
這樣好不好那麼第23條的部分我們是不是先暫保留那待會我們併同第6條還有剛剛的附帶決議這些我們一起處理這樣比較完備啦好不好那委員會如果同意的話我們這條先暫保留請趕快那個提案機關趕快把23條跟那個附帶決議的部分把它表達出來好那麼第24條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
21892.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
21915.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
機關代表要不要說明,我看就很簡單其實24條是因為我們前5條的規定也就是落實總額主義配套措施都是針對科稅處分那但是還有關於罰款處分的部分我們認為也依器可以適用,所以規定在24條好,各位委員那24條是不是我們照司法院提案文字通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
21920.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
21920.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
提起的刑事訴訟是有19條到23條的適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
21944.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
21963.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
那個是不是請提案金安代表 再針對翁委員的詢問再跟他說明清楚因為其實在稅法上面的這個罰還的金額常常是跟核定的稅額有高度的聯動的那所以我們認為說基於相同的法例因此我們認為說前面五條的規定在處罰處分也可以一併適用 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
21967.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
21979.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
好稅務處分跟罰款處分都是可以適用前面的條文好那如果同意的話我們24條就照司法院提案通過那因為25條我們暫時先不處理因為早上就有說了我們先從26條之後繼續推進好那麼第26條請提案機關代表說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
21986.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
22003.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
26條就是規定的就是本於核實科稅的原則行政法院做裁判的時候要計算科稅基礎的數額這是原則性的規定那第二項的規定就是說但是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
22003.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
22025.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
一些這種已經證明當事人有瞌睡事實但是可能就他的數額的計算或者是證明經過調查還是不能確定或者是虛廢過去的情形之下可以允許做依法來推計那接著後面的規定就是我們很詳細的列在了一些的推計的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
22025.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
22038.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
怎麼樣經過這些這四種的方法看能夠找出最切近真實數額的一個推計的方式達到公平納稅的目的謝謝好那麼請問在黨委員對於第26條內容是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
22063.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
22071.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
好那麼委員會如果這程序上的規定如果沒有意見因為他是要做依法為推計核心就是要依法推計 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
22074.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
22102.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
社會事件的審理法院就要把它計算出來不是再扔回去給社會行政機關那如果沒有意見我們第26條是按司法院提案通過請看第27條請提案機關代表說明本條其實是為了減輕法官的負擔簡化判決書的製作因此規定說如果行政法院認同原處分複查決定或訴願決定的理由是可以在裁判中來引用的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
22105.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
22130.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
好那請問在場委員第27條就是一個程序上可以引用的這個依據那如果來請歐委員這個現在行政訴訟法就已經這麼做了是不是報告委員目前行政訴訟法只有上級審可以引用下級審的判決那引用複查決定原處分或溯源決定的理由目前是沒有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
22132.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
22157.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
那如果這樣的話為什麼要特別要讓稅務行政的案子就是行政法院就直接引用原處分或複雜決定我們只是想說這事情應該是未來一體要修行政訴訟法未來如果通過的話我想為了簡化裁判書的製作減輕法官負擔我們行政訴訟法應該也會配合做如果有機會就會配合做相應的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
22159.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
22173.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
那我認為說這不是應該要在整個行政訴訟法的時候一併去修那你變成講說現在整個行政法院然後針對稅務行政的案件的審理那麼他就可以特別講話但一般的又不行我的意思說就不需要在27條這邊來特別定 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
22175.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
22192.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
我們非常感謝委員但是我們現在因為沒有機會去修那個行政訴訟法你知道要修都非常困難那所以我們是不是現在這裡先那個推進我要怎麼說呢副秘書長我要跟您講其實你們司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
22193.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
22220.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
我看了你們提的一些優先法案這讓我瞠目結舌我在這個上個會期我就看到司法院提的這個優先法案四個案子我覺得非常好奇明明有很多法律法案要修但是卻排不進你們的前面的四個法案覺得都是什麼這家法官助理的優先那修律師法所以像剛剛講的類似像這樣子可以簡化法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
22223.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
22241.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
這個簡化法官做裁判的時候的一些程序的這種條文就很重要啊你們要趕快修啊對如果說你們覺得時間來不及我幫你們提也可以但是呢事實上就是要把它割裂處理我基本上並不認同這樣子的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
22242.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
22261.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
好現在委員的意見就是說如果這個精神是應該在行政訴訟裡面一體適用的那我們以行政訴訟法就一併修嘛委員也可以提那因為現在行政訴訟法沒有案子在審所以利用特別法稅審法我們就先行那後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
22263.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
22286.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
行政輸送法連這樣的去動是最好是這個意思所以你們先爭取特別法先有然後再爭取我們的普通法同時並行大概是這個概念這個沒有絕對的對錯啦就做好事都認同只是程序上是要等著全部都一起做還是特別法先做是這樣概念那請問委員還是我們副秘書長你要再做補充針對翁委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
22287.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
22300.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
我建議要就是一併修啦 不要特別拿出來修那教科書也會要修制裁法 制裁法院法的然後這個其他的都是修了特別法 這明明就涉及到就行政 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
22302.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
22311.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
訴訟法裡面就是整個制度一併考量我覺得比較完整請提案機關代表說明一下因為我們這個是新創法稅審法是新創法那如果沒有這27條那麼會不會造成我們稅審法這個新創法的效能打折扣因為畢竟新創法是整包 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
22321.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
22338.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
那整包裡面放一個這樣的這個東西那如果這個沒有放進去那要等到行政事務創法一起修那會不會我們新通過的稅審法因為少了27條以至於在於程序經濟上就可惜那麼一點點是不是請說明那個新創法跟修訂法是不一樣的這新創法全部都是新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
22349.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
22364.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
報告委員 因為其實這個規定我們設想的是說其實有一些的法律見解已經是在稅金機關跟司法實務已經是很穩定共通性的見解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
22364.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
22384.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
那如果稅捐在這個原處分覆查決定溯源決定已經表示了這一個目前稅務領域已經很穩定的間接我們是覺得說那法官寫判決的經歷是不是就這一部分可以省下來我們更著重在更需要法官用心用智慧判斷的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
22387.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
22396.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
那其他委員呢 因為這個我知道你們就是程序經濟讓法官用力在需要花金的地方都有道理啦 那就看看委員會的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
22397.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
22418.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
我的建議還是說這條就保留,因為我希望透過這條來督促司法院趕快提行政訴訟法的修正說不定有機會所以要趕快提啊,那這邊就不用修啦,你們提出來這個修法我一定支持你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
22419.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
22436.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
這個程序上這邊私下提一下就是如果說行政訴訟法就是針對這條來修那因為本案如果通過要送二三讀到時候該條文只要送到委員會我們會抽出一起併案禁敷二讀過去這段時間以來我們立法院院會常常做這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
22439.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
22465.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
我們次長請說明我想補充說明一下因為這個條文它本身是針對原處分複查決定或訴願決定因為只有我們稅務事件審理有所謂的複查決定其他的行政訴訟沒有複查決定這個程序所以如果它這邊如果只是修行政訴訟法的話很可能變成在稅務案件上面複查決定的部分它就沒辦法引用 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
22472.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
22486.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
就是到時候可是新創法這樣子大家再想一想好不好再想一想我們先暫保留說不定大家待會回頭想說也沒有差怎麼樣好那我們現在請看28條請提案機關代表說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
22492.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
22520.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
28條是規定就是說行政法院如果認為稅捐基金機關做成的罰款處分有裁量違法的時候這個時候賦予行政法院可以自行決定有裁罰的權限可以直接決定說到底是該罰多少錢因而撤銷或變更原處分這個處罰處分的全部或者是一部 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
22521.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
22547.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
那因為目前的實務就是如果涉及到行政機關處罰有裁量權的話那行政法院具體指出他的裁量怠惰或裁量違法之處之後我們沒有自請處理而是把他請原處分機關再重圍處分但是我們認為說就是如果行政法院已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
22549.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
22577.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
審理之後認定有裁量怠惰例如如果原處分機關處罰一百萬但是我們認為說他因為沒有考量到哪一些因素其實考量這些因素之後應該是以八十萬元為適當的話那我們就可以不用再把這個案件再把它退回到基增機關去處理那行政法院直接就可以在八十萬元的範圍內維持然後只撤銷二十萬元的部分以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
22579.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
22600.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
莊委員我看所有的條文就這個條文最好了 通過了來 翁委員請莊委員你只聽了其中其一這個還是有一種可能這個法院如果說他變更罰還處分增加了呢剛剛這個廳長的舉例是減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
22603.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
22617.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
對不對原來他處罰一百萬然後後來行政法院認為說只要處八十萬就好少二十萬但是有沒有可能這個行政法院認為說其實原來罰一百萬不合理要增加為一百二十萬你說法條的文在上面看不出來啊對不對你有沒有寫說這裡有不利於變跟禁止原則的適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
22633.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
22634.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
來 那個陳廷長請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
22637.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
22663.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
其實委員剛才指教的部分因為我們是認為說當然不可能因為我們一定是在原告聲明的範圍內而且也有不利益不可能人民打訴訟越打越不利也有不利益變更禁止原則的適用那委員剛才的就教我們是不是可以在立法理由裡面這件事情把它說明確避免有疑義 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
22665.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
22687.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
很好 那這樣的話我們先等那個立法理由說明 拿出來因為我覺得這很重要 現在我們其實也不能那麼相信這個法院不會做出超乎人民預期以外的事情所以把這個條文寫清楚啦 要不然就是在立法理由上面要把它寫清楚 有不利辯跟禁止原則的適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
22688.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
22702.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
好 那麼跟委員報告 我們剛剛第20條有一個附帶決議那第28條我們有一個立法說明的修正補充那麼待會他們會把文字擬好之後我們再來處理那第28條我們先暫保留 第29條請提案機關代表說明30是一塊的 要一併說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
22719.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
22739.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
29條其實我們是規定法院判決的方式就做了一些的規範其實它的第一條就是說如果你今天認為原處分確實有違法侵害原告的權益或法律上利益的話那行政法院就要撤銷原處分複查決定跟溯院決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
22742.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
22761.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
然後第二項就是原則上行政法院你就要自行認定稅額了你可以去變更為其他的稅額金額或者是數額這個是我們希望法院就是直接認定出一個具體的稅額出來那第三項是 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
22762.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
22778.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
退而求其次就是說因為其實稅額的計算其實有的時候是很複雜的一件事那行政法院畢竟人力有限那我們認為說如果行政法院自行認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
22782.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
22799.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
我們就讓法官可以具體的在判決理由裡面來講說原處分到底哪裡違法認定或者是你哪裡漏味認定的一些事實或法律關係究竟是什麼設定了很明確的一些的框架讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
22801.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
22815.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
稅捐機關在法院所判決意旨的這個框架下去重新計算稅額第四項就是規定說如果今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
22816.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
22833.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
是牽涉到事實還有調查必要而且是比較繁複的繁雜的案件行政法院自行調查顯然有困難的話那而且考量到當事人的利益的話那這個時候才例外的讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
22834.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
22850.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
行政法院的判決可以只去撤銷原處分複查決定跟訴願決定然後讓原處分機關另為處分但是必須在理由中也要做相關的理由的序明以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
22851.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
22870.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
二九三十有連帶關係,是不是請稅捐機關代表要不要做說明,因為二十九就有提到行政法院可以命稅捐機關另為處分或計算稅額三十條也有提到原文條文本文當中就要稅捐機關等等,是不是請稅務機關代表補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
22873.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
22893.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
29條的末項跟30條其實就是我們現行的做法那只是說29條其實是法院是強化行政法院的自為裁判啦其實那個是跟就是簡化整個流程好所以就是現實務的做法把它文字化了好那請問委員會對於第29條是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
22900.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
22913.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
好 29條 照司法院提案文字通過 第30條是否也同意好 同意好 接下來我們看 接下來是第31條 請提案機關代表說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
22915.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
22940.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
31條是關於判決記判例的問題我們知道如果一個訴訟他的訴訟標的經過法院確定判決之後就會發生記判例也就會產生遮斷效也就是就相關的爭議是不可以再另外起訴請求增值的但是我們也考慮到說因為我們這個如果把訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
22943.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
22957.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
確定判決的遮斷效放得那麼大那我們怕說有的情形確實會過於嚴苛因此我們在這裡就做了一個比較遷移做了一個限縮就是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
22958.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
22980.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
說這個訴訟標的是經過終局判決中經過裁判的經過法院裁判的部分我們才讓他有計判有確定力但是我們又怕說當我們這樣子把它限縮了之後又會讓一些當事人他如果是故意或者是重大過失他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
22981.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
23000.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
不走不提出來不在事實審言辭辯論終結前提出來提出主張或者是做變更處分那這個就開了一個漏洞給不管是給納稅一人或者是給被告機關因此我們才又設了第二項的規定就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
23000.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
23020.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
如果稅捐機關你因為故意或者是重大過失你不在事實審言辭辯論終結前就足以增加稅額的事由提出來的話那你就不可以在判決確定後再根據這些事由另外再做成一個補稅的處分那相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
23022.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
23045.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
納稅義務人如果也因為故意或重大過失那你不提出這些主張的話那你也就不可以在就在於判決確定後基於這些事有再來請求退稅或者是提起再審以上報告好謝謝陳庭長那麼稅務機關代表那麼有沒有對這個部分你有提到稅務機關那麼適合認同這樣的條文設計請表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
23050.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
23065.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
原則上我們是認同但是就是怕說有些案件它當然它這邊也有前提啦就是說因為故意或重大過失那如果不是基於這樣的理由其實我們不會適用到這一項那基本上我們沒什麼意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
23071.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
23088.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
31條這裡我的看法是若是稅捐機關自己本身因為故意咒納過失沒有在訴訟的過程當中提出主張所以至於他判決確定後不可以再 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
23089.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
23118.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
做成補正稅有處分或提起債券之訴我認為這是規則於稅軍機關的問題那我這裡是支持可是對於納稅義務人而言我認為說這樣子的一個規定會不會也剝奪了納稅義務人的這個訴訟救濟權利因為畢竟債審的規定其實在各個不同訴訟法裡面都有那現在行政訴訟法裡面的相關的債審的規定有類似像你們這樣有排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
23119.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
23146.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
就是當事人因為故意或中納過失而該提出主張沒有提出主張判決確定之後不准他們再提起再審之訴的類似規定嗎好 陳廷長請回答報告委員目前行政訴訟法273條第一項第13款也就是再審的事由它是有一款是說發現未經斟酌的證物或者是可以使用證物的話那你是可以據以為再審的事由 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
23147.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
23175.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
提起再審但是我們同時呢在111年修法之後也增設了一個它的第四項的規定就是限縮了這十三二七三條第一項第十三款的室友必須限於以非可規則於己的室友不能於言辭辯論終結前提出者違憲所以也把十三款做了一個限縮的限縮的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
23180.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
23186.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
類似的規定了在行政訴訟法您剛剛講說是證物行政訴訟法是273條第一項第13款跟第4項同條是就證物提出的證據就是發現未經斟酌的證物那這裡的話我們31條是 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
23202.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
23220.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
就是他沒有提出而且我們是把他限於說除非你真的是故意或重大過失了真的是有有有這麼嚴重的情形我們才會限制你不可以再再來提再審或者是做成這個請求退稅好了解了專委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
23227.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
23254.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
主席31條第二項這一點我倒有不同的意見這一點我就跟翁小玲維的意見比較接近因為那個納稅義務人的部分你去把它看我們現在設計是說你故意跟重大過失你沒有在那個整個事實審言辭辯論終結前你就足以使稅額減少的事實提出主張那你去把它看本來你在再審的規定你本來就是說我只要是 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
23255.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
23275.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
只要是基於發現真實嘛我本來就該有的證據不管是民事訴訟、刑事訴訟或者刑事訴訟裡面你落位審酌了拿出來審判庭裡面這個本來就是覺得是回復到整個真實嘛可是後來修法以後我們就把這個門又堵起來了你一直把它堵的話我們現在審的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
23277.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
23303.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
國家一個高權行為在剋稅喔本來國家在剋稅的時候你本來就要真實的去剋稅最多也只能到這裡而已欸啊我好不容易我找到出一個說喔我那邊對我是有利的啊我們現在又跟他講說你可能是故意你可能是重大過失我們這個第七條裡面我不曉得剛剛第七條那條通過沒有還沒有我們現在也要採律師強制喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
23304.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
23306.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
那如果是第七條兩條等於是連動喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
23308.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
23336.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
否則的話你一般當事人我們在講的是立法委員在講還有法律人在講或者專業人在講一般民眾哇 等一下什麼的哇 把這個不利益苛責於老百姓我是覺得行政部門我覺得合理啦就行政部門就是說你就怠惰啦你硬要做 你做不好沒關係沒關係 放過去那剛好老百姓賺到了可以可是這個第二款這個有點像追殺追殺過渡 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
23338.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
23364.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
會不會有這樣的一個想法真的喔我就碰過好幾件啦我跟你講啦 那個年紀很大的被你們磕磕到最後想自殺啦不不不 不懂 基於真的不懂老一輩的人就真的不懂唉呦 我跟你講不懂 她想說她的兒子很老 兒子跟媳婦會跟她相處結果完結也都沒辦法用 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
23366.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
23380.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
那是故意你不要以為這個很現實啦日常生活就這麼一回事啦你不要以為說這個好像說一個很合理 理性的國民大家都該具備什麼專業常識沒有這回事啦有的覺得說我老人家生小孩自己就很厲害 高級博士啊又都專業 大家知道都晚嫁全部都不相似到最後不利益承擔全部都是那個老的會這樣子喔所以你那個第二款的設定我是覺得涉及到老百姓的這個是不是可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
23396.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
23420.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
第一款我覺得很合理啦第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
23424.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
23444.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
你要反對他,沒有辦法,這部分我就反對你們了因為我是覺得這一款不用科與納稅義務人這麼高因為我看你們那個從在審室友的設計我們一直跟他說說說說說不然本來你在審本來就是要發聲真實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
23446.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
23471.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
對不對 尤其是國家在課稅行為你本來就是有多少 你本來只能課多少而已啊哪有什麼我忘記了 或者什麼書本來我就不應該課那麼多的 只因為我不懂到最後我還要享受這個不利益所以這個第三款 廳長再考慮一下你也會啦 我跟你講好 那個請教一下不是不是 我的意思是站在人民的立場裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
23472.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
23498.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
你是第七條剛好你現在要採律師強制喔不然這些條你拿出去老百姓是沒有一條看得懂的喔我跟妳講真的沒有人看得懂啊那個請問一下第三十一條第三項納稅一路人他的故意或過失的舉證責任是這個涉及到對於誰比較利益因為納稅一路人很難去想像他故意對他有利益他不提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
23500.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
23506.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
你舉個例子給我聽聽看,說我這撿出來之後可以減稅,我就故意丟在那裡不可以撿出來,有這個我很難想像看啦,我這第三個我還是覺得,甘秉你有跟我有道理嗎有啦,有那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
23523.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
23535.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
我們倒不必去審酌說你在整個刑事訴訟或者行政訴訟或者說民事訴訟裡面在審我也知道在研討的時候都是為了訴訟經濟啊甘麽說訴訟程序再開因為你要通過都已經很困難了 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
23544.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
23561.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
你一直給人家限縮限縮限縮這幾年的限縮那個我沒意見但是因為涉及到對老百姓的課稅本來有多少你本來就是只能課多少不能因為哪一個證據我沒有拿出來老百姓更不利益我認為這不通考慮一下 拜託拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
23562.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
23588.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
來 翁委員 是啦 我也認為說這個雖審法的精神是希望能夠讓訴訟程序更為快速 更為經濟可是也不能因為強調訴訟程序的經濟而犧牲了納稅義務人員告的權利 當事人的權益尤其是涉及到再審之訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
23590.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
23614.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
這本來就是人家的一個權利,就像剛剛莊委員講的,發現他如果說真的發現了,他本來應該是要掃腳的,但是又不能提出主張。所以我是認為這一個第三項的規定,有應該要在審慎思考的必要性。來,那個,好吧,提案基本法代表同意的作為回應。來,副秘書長,請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
23616.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
23627.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
沒有 我剛只是在請教就是我雖然不是行政法的專業但是就是說我的理解第二項跟第三項其實都是基於第一項那個判決確定力來的就是說當一個判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
23631.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
23651.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
我們已經攻防了這麼久他已經產生了一個確定力之後他不只是對於就是說那個訴那個訴訟標的呀他對於就是說你這些攻防的這些那個重要事實本來就是法院都已經幫你審過了那我想這樣子的一個一個前面這個就是說不管是第二項或第三項說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
23653.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
23681.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
言辭辯論終結前就什麼什麼的那個事由就是之後都不可以主張我想這個本來就是判決確定力他的那個範疇裡面是不是那我想在這地方只是在做吳局長也不是因為第一款你講的是中間判決啊他還不是針對訴訟標的啊沒有訴訟標的確定的中間判決所以講的是終極判決終極判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
23690.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
23719.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
是我們再讓專業的來沒有沒有報告委員陳庭長請說其實這個我剛才講了其實這一條是討論計判力計判力的範圍那其實因為我們這一部法案設計的就誠如我剛才跟各位報告的我們前面的程序是很開放你可以隨時追加補充各種的你主張的事由你都可以提出來甚至在上述審你都還可以再提出來所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
23719.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
23739.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
我們就怕說大家提出來那麼多東西之後當判決確定之後一旦發生記判例全部遮斷我們怕這個對當事人來講太苛了所以我們才又把它開放一點然後就是說那不要全部遮斷啦至於法院判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
23741.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
23767.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
是以法院經裁判的我們才讓他產生遮斷的效力所以其實我們我覺得這個是一個很友善是很為當事人著想的啊理解方向我整個雖然我稅額減少的但是我的延遲辯論重點沒有提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
23771.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
23798.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
我就不能以後就不能再提出委員其實這個第二項第三項其實是很極端很極端的例子真的是你會被認為真的是故意你故意嘛或重大過失真的很明顯你就是明明知道有這個你不提出來這種極端的例子其實才會落入第二項跟第三項的適用委員今天是都不問的 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
23814.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
23821.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
還是這一條再讓大家思考一下下我們先暫保留那我們先從32條32條應該是相對簡單是不是說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
23826.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
23854.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
是的 32條是一個過渡性的規定我們就是考慮到說如果這一部法案施行之後它跟目前已經在細數而沒有終結的這些的稅務行政事件它到底是該用本法呢還是用行政訴訟法呢所以我們就在這邊為了保障當事人的信賴跟訴訟程序的安定我們在這裡做了一個規範那第一項是一個原則性的揭示 就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
23855.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
23873.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
原則上除別有規定外會適用本法但那二三四五項就是第一項所謂的除別有規定所以其實像如果已經是施行前已經起訴的案件像我們的第七條第九條這一些關於強制律師代理關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
23876.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
23886.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
遇時提出攻擊防禦方法這一些的規定就都不會適用所以其實我們是採比較保守的方式做了一些的限制以上報告謝謝好這個是屬於過渡行的規定好這五項如果文字內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
23902.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
23930.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
委員會沒有其他意見我們是不是就按照司法院提案文字通過好 謝謝那麼最後第33條就很簡單本法實行日期由司法院定資那前面我們有一個附帶決議是要在實行日期前應該做的哪些事情待會我們附帶決會來處理那請問委員我想請問那個司法院現在有沒有計畫大概會多久之後會實行 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
23932.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
23957.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
通過後假設通過後時間真的會實行報告委員我們是在想說因為這一部法是一個全新的法那陳儒剛才討論的過程中有很多是像什麼叫做同一課稅事件或者是基礎處分後續處分都需要讓適用這一部法律的尤其像稅捐機關的人員跟我們行政法院的法官們 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
23957.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
23979.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
充分的了解、認識所以我們中間還會辦很多的一些的宣導、講習我們務必確保大家都很了解能夠掌握這部法的精神之後我們大概才會讓他上路所以其實當然目前預估我想可能會 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
23980.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
24002.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
也本半個半年到一年之間吧應該不會很很倉促的就讓這一部法案立刻實行好來我們委員會那如果沒有你我們會倒車回去再看前面那是不是如果本條沒有問題我們就按照司法院提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
24003.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
24029.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
好那跟我們說明一下我們前面有幾個條文是因為我們認為需要在立法理由強化或者是說要附帶決議去拘束要求那所以我們會分別的到車到前面請大家看桌上先從第三條那第三條的立法說明已經把條文的部分都分別如列上了大家手上有沒有看到這一張就稅務 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
24032.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
24039.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
所以審法第三條的立法說明修正好大家看一下右本法第17條19條第26條及第29條分別優先於納保法第11條第3項21條第1項14條第2項第3項及第21條 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
24054.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
24076.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
為什麼你們21條第一項跟14條的第二項的調次是有什麼邏輯上的關係嗎一般都是按照調次順序那你們現在有一個21條的第一項那又差了一個14條的第二項第三項又差到21條的第三項調次上有沒有邏輯的關係一定要這樣擺還是調次上要從11 14 21的調次來表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
24084.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
24111.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
再看一下下,你們手上有嗎?自己看一下本法本法就是睡神法第十七條、十九條、二十六條及二十九條這個四個條文是按照條次來表達要分別優先於你是對應前面的是不是?對應前面的十七條,對應前面的十九條對應二十六,對應二十九,是這個意思嗎?還是你們是從第十一條因為你們睡 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
24112.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
24135.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
納保法的11條第三項就跑到21條的第一項又跑回24條的第二項第三項再跑回21條的第三項調適上的順序有沒有關聯有沒有對應前面的關聯有對應嘛有對應的關係所以你看法律人都為了求精簡我們都要猜測一下應該是這個對應關係就是有的是對應17條有的對應19條有的對應26條有的對應29條是這個意思好 那請各位委員看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
24142.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
24167.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
這樣的內容補充是否足夠我們現在在處理的是第三條的立法說明是翁委員在條文通過後希望立法說明能夠補充得更完備請問翁委員這樣可以嗎這樣的寫法是沒有問題啦只是說有沒有沒有 因為我也沒有逐項去檢視有沒有是沒有寫到的應該 因為這司法院提供的應該都有寫到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
24169.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
24195.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
對啦 其實就是因為哪些要優先適用於納稅者權利保護法就蠻多專家學者都還是有很多的疑慮所以這個當然在之前的大體說明討論的時候其實大家都討論過這關鍵還有後面的一些條文好 第三條因為我們已經通過了那麼我們就把這個修正內容立法說明的內容修正補充進去那接下來是要處理第七條 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
24197.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
24206.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
第十條的立法說明大家有拿到嗎我們對應到我們法案的第十四頁因為有個第七點有談到基礎處分後續處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
24223.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
24235.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
那麼這當中呢請大家看到這一張的立法說明的第三頁就是第七到第八中間尤其是第七點第七點底下畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
24237.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
24256.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
底線的部分從文化局登錄某建物為歷史建築那裡開始到最後的並與序名據點這個是對應原來我們法案的這個報紙顏色本的這一本的第14頁把它補充在我們的立法說明當中那麼提案機關代表這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
24264.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
24286.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
有沒有要再做補充,因為這跟你們原來第七點的立法說明有些微的差別那因為還有一個是附帶決的部分附帶決是二十條嗎,還是二十八條二十三條二十三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
24292.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
24309.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
來 請安委員剛剛的第十條的立法理由的修正我有一個小小建議就是增加一個字就是文化局我先念一下文化局登陸某建物的歷史建築然後包括文化資質 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
24311.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
24337.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
保存法第18條稅捐基金稅捐稅捐基金機關據辦理免徵房屋稅及地價稅到誇號文化資產保存法第99條然後這邊是不是要多加個固登錄建築物為歷史建築之處分為基礎處分而免徵房屋稅及地價稅的課稅處分為後續處分前者對後者有拘束力這會不會比較清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
24337.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
24366.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
好那翁委員可不可以把你的文字修正直接寫在帳篷上請他看那另外的第10條剛剛在討論的時候的戰保流銀牌包括滯納金因為稅捐基金機關他們認為那個滯納金啊那個滯納金跟後面敗訴之後他那個前面已經確定的滯納金不會因為你敗訴之後通通回到變成用本稅的利息去計算這個部分有處理了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
24367.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
24371.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
那個次長你們你們討論之後是不是有同意了 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
24375.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
24403.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
主席可不可以給我們時間我們回去把文字整理一下好那這樣好不好我們第10條我們還有第10條還是先保留好不好先暫保留第10條因為翁委員這邊也有然後財政部這邊也有所以我們第10條先暫保留繼續暫保留那麼再來是附帶決議的部分我們剛剛第20條21條有暫保留那麼20條21條暫保留我們是希望在施行前 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
24405.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
24427.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
其實是二十條暫保留啦對不是二十一條他寫附帶決議就本法第二十條二十一條關於統一課稅事件以及第十條第六項第二十三條關於基礎處分及後續處分與立法通過後頓耗施行前逗點請司法院與財政部研商適用範圍及案件類型 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
24428.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
24449.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
好那這樣的附帶決議呢就可以幫我們在處理第20條的時候大家的一些意見呢就不會說有稅務機關啊他們認定上不能夠理解的或確認的部分那請問20條經過這樣的一個附帶決議是否我們暫保留的第20條大家覺得經過這樣的附帶決議可以第20條我們在20條的時候呢是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
24458.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
24472.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
提到所謂的後續處分這些相關的認定問題稅務機關是認為需要跟司法院這邊做更明確的釐清所以希望在法律施行前能夠做研商23條是啥23條也一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
24489.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
24513.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
好 請問那個委員會 因為我們前面的20條跟23條的暫保留都是因為我們覺得需要配套兩個司法機關跟稅務行政機關能夠有充分的確認那希望在施行前他們有繼續的延商好來 那個李次長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
24515.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
24520.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
這邊我們是檢視了一下好像還有個23條之外還有個第29條29條的第二項也有提到獲基礎處分確認之數額者 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
24529.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
24550.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
29條也補充進去我們在23條後面再補充的第29條第二項好不好補進去是然後另外就是我們因為這邊只有說請司法院或與財政部延伤適用範圍及案件類型那我們是說那這樣子延伤的結果並將其結果怎樣是不是可以由司法院來公告之 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
24552.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
24567.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
就讓我們所有的民眾大家都知道都可以了解說這個類型或者說用行政命令來對外發布還是怎麼樣好 來這個部分可能請司法院看看文字怎麼處理 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
24571.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
24599.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
來這個就是附帶決議就本法第20條第21條關於同一課稅事件以及第10條第6項第23條以及第29條第2項關於基礎處分及後續處分於立法通過後頓號施行前逗號請司法院與財政部延商適用範圍及案件列行逗點並將其延商結果對外公佈對外發佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
24601.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
24612.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
這樣的文字內容可行嗎你們是怎麼表達那個讓大家知道廣為周知總不能跟我們貼文一樣 忘周知結果是今天大家一直在關心的市場院的一些延商結果我們希望能夠知道這個延商結果有可能把它定在施行細則裡面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
24631.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
24648.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
就同一課稅事件文字上可以再斟酌一下嗎來那個副名長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
24649.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
24649.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
對外宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
24668.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
24695.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
因為那個會議開到現在我們從一點到現在可以讓大家休息一下下你們擬一下文字那個委員會是否先需要短暫的生理上的休息那讓老金去想一下我是建議是不是乾脆一氣呵成啦就剩下 因為剩下也沒有多少因為他們需要時間寫啊寫什麼剛剛那個部分 文字的部分啊剛剛在念的部分對外公開嘛 對外公告啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
24697.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
24712.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
對外說明好 那我們是不是重新擬一個文字上來好不好好 才不會讓議事人員這邊錯誤好 那如果這個附帶決議文字出來之後呢我們就會產生我們把原來保留的第20條第23條還有第28條因為有沒有 包括28條 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
24730.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
24753.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
28條的立法說明還沒補充喔28條的立法說明好 28條的立法說明來了好 那這樣子啊我們現在同時先處理28條的立法說明那請剛剛的那個附帶決的文字再做一下修整那我們把28條的立法說明請大家委員會看一下31條有 他還沒有講啊他還沒有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
24755.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
24771.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
來我們一個一個來不要急不要急還會有時間的那麼我們先從28條來看28條的附帶決議不是立法說明說錯了立法說明的說明部分請看文字內容說明欄的第 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
24773.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
24800.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
第六行一級為免罰或拙減裁罰金額之決定後面行政法院不得為較原處分為更不利於原告之判決自屬當然自屬當然就是說再講一次給你聽就這一張有沒有看到來大家桌面看一下第28條的說明補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
24804.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
24815.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
28條在我們的本子上第31頁看到了 這邊看到了 抱歉然後我看他這邊怎麼寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
24860.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
24888.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
這邊應該是要用因為它原來的條文都是用得自為免罰或裁罰之決定那麼所以呢在立法理由這邊是要寫成不得為較原處分為更不利於原告之判決還是要用決定前面是決定你看它上面畫底線的前面是寫決定之決定法院的才是判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
24891.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
24902.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
對 可是因為你看條文 它第28條的條文它說行政法院得自為免罰或裁罰之決定而撤銷或變額繁華準備全部或一部所以這個決定當然可能也是指判決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
24904.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
24922.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
但是報告委員我們因為我們做自違免罰或裁罰決定之後都是以判決的方式來處理啊判決主文就會預知說撤銷原處分超過多少萬元金額的部分對好那就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
24923.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
24940.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
OK好啦那就是文字上面本來想說要不要統一那你叫他用原告吧用判決好那麼我們這是第28條我們就將立法說明修正後按司法院提案文字通過好謝謝那剛剛的那個31的暫保留還沒處理我們先處理前面的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
24949.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
24958.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
那個附帶決議的部分因為31條莊委員跟翁委員都很關心我們再想一下那我們現在處理的是剛剛提到的第2020條還有第23條23條 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
24974.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
24990.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
文字還沒過來嗎 等一下讓他發一下因為後來把後面的加上說案件類型逗號並將其延伤結果對外說明好像是這樣子嘛 你們文字上再斟酌一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
25074.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
25095.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
好第20條和23條的文字附帶決的文字有沒有送出去了好印了好來我們再等一分鐘那跟委員說明那目前的我們如果處理完20條23條的附帶決議那麼第10條是關於自納金的部分那2728剛剛也 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
25104.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
25107.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
2728有處理了嗎?27還沒有然後28處理了那31還沒有,31是關於那個不利處分的那個對,27跟31 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
25141.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
25151.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
那跟委員說明一下我們大委的時間目前有20、23在看附帶決議中那麼27條是屬於那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
25169.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
25195.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
行政訴訟法跟這個稅審法是要由行政訴訟法來統一處理還是稅審法先行那麼第31條就是對於當那個納稅醫護人本身故意或過之的問題那另外呢前面還有4567這四個條文那4567早上只是做一些意見交換我們或許可以再過頭來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
25198.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
25206.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
好 那麼大家是不是已經拿到了修正本附帶決議好 我唸一遍 請大家看一下舊本法第20條 第21條關於統一課稅事件以及第10條第6項 第23條 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
25213.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
25237.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
第29條第二項關於基礎處分及後續處分於立法通過後施行前請司法院與財政部研商適用範圍及案件類型並分別對外說明分別 各說各的說同一件事情好 那麼請問大家對於這樣的負債決定內容是否可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
25239.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
25267.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
好 可以接受 那我們這樣的話附帶決議通過 那我們另外20條就按照司法院提案通過以及第23條也按照司法院提案內容通過那接下來我們來處理的是 先處理4567好不好因為第10條 內容還是要請那個稅務機關看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
25269.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
25294.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
可是還有那個滯納金的呢滯納金的部分還沒有沒有啊在等啊所以我這個先不急啊好那麼第10條的部分因為稅務機關他們也在研究關於那個滯納金的部分怎麼樣表達進去才不會有所誤解那是不是請我們回過頭來看暫保留的第4條第4條條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
25300.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
25323.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
第四條是這個當事人能力的部分那是否大家經過這樣的全部逐條看過之後對於當事人的能力部分是否同意主要提案的黃委員他對這個部分也還蠻有意見的我個人認為說也沒有講得很清楚就保留吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
25324.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
25348.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
好還是先暫保留我們那麼因為我們本案還會再審那麼第5條的部分那個提案機關有沒有要再補充說明對這個地方也涉及到第三人效率處分那也是不是很清楚好而且這個相關的就適當的例子還沒有找出來好不好好第6條第6條 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
25351.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
25380.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
第六條涉及到基礎處分的部分嗎就跟後面的一起 這也要講清楚第六條是那個命期參加對 輔助參加是命期參加不一樣喔 因為第六條比較跟前面那兩條不一樣第六條命期參加的部分是否我們這樣經過全部的條文看過之後第六條應該是相對比較沒有爭議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
25382.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
25409.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
那是不是委員同意我們第六條按照委員提案通過好 謝謝那麼第七條第七條因為有那個條文對照的部分那好像有新的東西在送進來嘛有沒有 有有 有第七條有第七條有一個修正動議跟立法說明的修正請大家看到就是第七條 有沒有看到第七條這張白紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
25410.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
25415.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
修正條文的動議內容在第七條的第四行 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
25416.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
25441.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
因委任律師或法定得為訴訟代理之人這個就是把後面可能的這些會計師這些都放進去了那麼立法說明的部分在第二點他說本條第一項所稱法定得為訴訟代理之人細指一行政訴訟法第49條之一第四項得委任非律師為訴訟代理人之情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
25442.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
25471.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
好 那就是這樣 就把早上大家關心的除了律師之外 訴訟代理人之人有沒有包含律師之外的好 那因為這個修正動議我要簽個名啦 大家看有沒有意見我是認為說這條的還沒發好就還是有爭議啦 就還是善保留啦等等 等等 那個你們有沒有拿到有拿到 有拿到呢對 有沒有發 這張我再講一次喔現在說沒有發出去 我說怎麼有拿到 有拿到了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
25473.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
25497.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
這個或法定得為訴訟代理之人都有看到喔來 莊委員您看到了嗎第七條啦第七條的修正動議跟立法說明就還是稅務行政事件是不是一定要強制委任律師啦那個 問我說明一下上午在討論的時候是講有其他不是律師的像會計師可不可以代理因為這裡談的不是強制代理的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
25498.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
25521.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
因為上午談強制代理的時候討論到說那因為眾委強制代理但是是否只有委律師可以強制代理那麼要回到我們行政訴訟法的規定去不是在討論強制代理與否大概跟委員會說明一下因為上午的情況是這樣子上午是有委員表示說 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
25523.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
25540.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
強制代理但是非律師可否代理的問題不是在討論得否強制代理其實這個不強制委任律師由當事人自己主張會對行政法院會造成什麼影響嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
25542.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
25544.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
好 那這是新的課題不是 對 因為其實這條條文的確很多人很關心而且認為這個可能會不利於經濟弱勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
25555.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
25575.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
你是講說科學科這麼高那可能也不會是經濟弱勢因為早上我們並沒有對於強制代理的部分做討論而是說大家在同意強制代理的情況了解強制代理的範疇之外因為有委員提到說那邊最多寫委任律師但事實上有非律師可以接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
25575.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
25594.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
可以當為代理的那麼就回歸到行政訴訟法那因此特別把行政訴訟法的相關的文字也放進來就更為明確早上只是因為這個部分還沒有寫出來所以暫保留的並不是在討論可否強制代理的問題還是要跟委員說明一下不要不要說明一下加上這文字內容來請副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
25600.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
25607.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
融火再說明一下,所謂的150萬是指稅額150萬,並不是課稅的事實坦白講,我想我應該不算是經濟上的弱勢,可是我一輩子還沒有繳過哪一條稅是超過150萬也很難想像我未來以後會有繳超過150萬一個稅的 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
25623.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
25640.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
這個事實上那個標的事實上是真的已經是非常大了就是那個稅收那至於說這裡頭其實有做了很多很多平衡就是說很多就是說什麼情況底下還是有很多那個例外就是說他並不一定要那個強制代理 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
25644.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
25656.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
這裡頭也都規定適用行政訴訟法關於強制代理的規定我想我們在說明裡面也做了很多詳細的說明說哪一些情況事實上是不用的去做一個平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
25658.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
25680.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
以上補充說明我記得好像像有的時候那個遺產稅過去曾經看到有些新聞然後也有些民眾可能不知道遺產稅各方面的一些規定可能在莫名其妙也被要求要繳交很高的遺產稅或是贈禮稅的時候好像是不是也曾經有發生過 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
25681.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
25704.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
這都不見得是老百姓他真的是很有錢要交到這麼高的錢我現在只是想說是如果說回到這個條文的本身來講當然你們現在也做了修正但整體來講就是這個條文其實我覺得還是應該要保留然後再大家再討論我記得黃委員然後之前羅志強委員他們也都有在提到這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
25708.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
25726.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
因為早上黃委員談的是律師以外的人這個還是要跟你說明一下他早上並不是提強制代理的問題是談律師以外的人現在我們要談就是這個條文要不要保留嘛我知道我是說就這個問題我們經過這樣的修正之後可不可以同意我建議就保留吧就保留啦其他委員的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
25738.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
25753.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
我們現在有哪些條文還沒處理的暫保留就是第4條第5條第6條第7條暫保留還有31好像第10條當時也是講暫保留第10條是因為我剛剛講暫保留是因為那個稅務機關他們還在 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
25759.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
25760.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
第31條是31條嗎27條 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
25770.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
25797.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
27條就是這個就是因為是不是要特別法先行因為行政訴訟法目前並沒有可以引用但是因為稅務機關是表示說因為所謂的複查也只有稅務機關會用到那如果你在特別法當中不把這個複查兩個字放進去要等到行政訴訟法到時候一併來修可能到時候還要回過頭來再把這條文把那個複查放進去恐怕是不是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
25798.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
25802.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
我們的程序經濟上可以考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
25802.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
25830.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
其實也還好啦 沒有插納一些文字因為我個人的看法還是認為整個行政訴訟法一體修會比較好 否則的話變成一個法院然後這類不同案件整個都割裂的處理因為我們今天暫保留的原因是因為委員還有一些意見想要再思考得更清楚一點然後再來31條的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
25831.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
25849.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
三十一條是關於納稅醫護人因故意或重大過失這個部分兩位委員莊委員跟翁委員那麼剛剛的說明是否足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
25851.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
25873.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
第三十一條 納稅醫護人因故意或重大過失再審的問題七十三十一條我還是有點意見 我之所以意見 我剛才一直在那邊思考我們這一部算是行政訴訟法的特別法 就是稅務行政的一個審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
25875.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
25895.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
那你去把它看喔,如果我們31條這樣規定的話,如果我們這邊都未規定是不是回歸到行政訴訟法,那這就麻煩了。我本來的想法是說,這一第三款裡面如果沒有的話,那相對於第二款的話,其實不會回到行政訴訟法,這是有意的疏漏。 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
25896.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
25923.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
你去看我們民事訴訟法裡面它你只要不管是民事訴訟法或行政訴訟法或者刑事訴訟法不管是你重要證據落位審酌或者說你發現新事實 新證據只要有利於我這個裁判當事人有利益的根本就沒有規定什麼故意或重大過失沒有在講這一些啊只是因為你到了行政訴訟以後行政部門的議員你比較大行政法案你就偷懶啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
25924.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
25938.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
你就一定要什麼故意啊或者重大過失啊還是設定一大堆條款你才可以來來這個弄一些再審啊行政訴訟本來當初行政法院被外界把你批評出來你們就是駁回法院啊有啦什麼沒有你們行政法院最爛的 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
25945.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
25963.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
以前被外界的詬病啦不是說那些法官都爛了不能這樣講啦我的意思就是說當然有改善啊當然有改善啊但是我的意思是說你去比較民事訴訟的制度你去比較刑事訴訟的這個制度那為什麼你行政訴訟跟人家就要不一樣行政訴訟那是 刑事訴訟要抓到官的 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
25968.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
25994.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
人家也不該整天說什麼故意要做大過失也不想你說你行政訴訟一直講說非規則於當事人對不對那我們為什麼要有這個第三款這樣的設計我的意思就是說你去比較刑事訴訟法的規定跟民事訴訟法的規定再來看看你涉及到官方的就沒有必要讓老百姓這麼委屈嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
25996.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
26014.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
不然你逼到420你逼到496你逼到什麼我個人的看法啦除非我們把它解釋成這31條的第三項裡面如果沒有規定是一個刻意的跟第二項來做比較是一個疏漏不會回歸到行政訴訟但是你如果像廠長你說這裡沒有規定要回復到行政訴訟我說話也聽不懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
26019.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
26039.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
對不對 我是覺得我這樣講有道理啦 因為這是國家在瞌睡我實質上不應該繳這麼多 不能因為我有疏忽然後就是說 你死了好 為什麼你有故意中大過失不然在那裡哭這是我這個很直接的罰感 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
26043.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
26065.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
再審啊 是啊 是啊你為什麼要把他這個再審的你把它剝奪掉呢有必要嗎 我們有必要這樣設計嗎就像你講的 案件根本就不多啦你連民事訴訟尤其刑事訴訟你要把那個再審程序再開哪那麼容易啊程序上就剝掉了耶那我們如果說針對這一種 針對這種國家你的高檢新聞在瞌睡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
26073.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
26085.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
給他有一個就是我都不應該錄這麼多這樣因為你給他課一個說我因為故意或重大過失我連這個再審程序都不能開我是覺得好像沒必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
26088.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
26115.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
那個跟委員報告因為那個主席這邊會再繼續排審那所以我們今天有兩個案子那我就徵求委員同意因為我們本來第11到第16以及第25條本來就說不會處理那今天的暫保留部分我們會再下次繼續處理但是由於因為第25條是稅審官那稅審官如果未來我們同意假設同意後面的審查同意會涉及到行政法院組織法當中的幾個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
26116.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
26136.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
那我這幾天這樣去了解之後我希望能夠把第二案的部分就這幾個這兩個這個條文因為那個行政機關的人也在場讓大家來先做討論所以目前接下來主席這邊的處理會向第一案我們會在另排期繼續審議然後繼續第二案的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
26137.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
26147.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
那麼先就那個那個關鍵條文的部分讓機關代表做說明因為跟委員說明一下因為這個那個條文的主要爭議不是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
26148.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
26175.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
我聽起來不是在我們委員會這邊因為委員會這邊在意的是稅審官要不要設但是一旦設了稅審官之後呢到底他的條文上的表達在行政法院組織法當中他到底要怎麼表述那麼權序部也好人事總署也好跟司法院也好有些意見那請容許我們最後的時間把握一下今天壓縮了我們委員會休息的時間那也希望待會不要拖太晚 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
26176.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
26182.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
所以請允許我們來做這樣的處理那我是不是先就第一案的部分做個宣告那我們進行第二案的部分好討論事項第一案未及處理部分做如下決議令定期繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
26192.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
26215.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
那麼繼續討論第二案繼續審查司法院含情審議行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案本案前經113年12月30日本會期本會第23次全體委員會決議另訂其繼續審查由於該次會議在大體討論後已進行逐條並通過決議第10條及第15條均照司法院提案通過源於今日繼續就本案為及討論決議部分進行逐條審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
26218.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
26245.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
那麼現在就拜託我們第二案的部分是不是只就二十條之一的部分讓機關表達意見因為他們主要這一條是因為機關有一些不一樣的意見我們讓他表達那後續我們今天不處理好不好委員長同意嗎我們因為這一條是涉及到稅審官那稅審官在我們的稅審法當中既然沒有通過關鍵的二十五條這一個部分當然就不會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
26246.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
26272.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
決議但是呢由於二十條之一主要是基於機關之間的不同意見我們還是請委員會了解一下那我們到另定期再審議好不好因為機關代表都來了我們讓他們表示那大家有什麼意見請他們待會去再做怎麼樣協商那可能換場的時候待會人事總處跟權序部要表示那麼第二十條之一是不是請提案機關代表就這個提案這個二十條之一的條文做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
26273.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
26300.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
不討論 不處理 他們說明我們不處理好 了解那個主席委員 大家好現在終於進到了第二個法案那我先說明就是有關於就是在這一個部分我們設了一個那個稅審官那有關於稅審官的那個來源呢他為了能夠廣納就是市財 市所的人才進來所以說他的那個禁用管道有三個 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
26300.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
26327.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
一個是在那個組織法二十條之一第一項的就是一般公務員的這個任用就是有官職等的那個任用那另外呢就是在那個第四項的時候呢他同時還規定了有聘用跟戒掉的那個管道這個是第一個前提說明的那第二個就是有關於就是這個聘用的那個部分司法院就是本院非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
26327.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
26353.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
聘用人員呢他不可以適用就是這個官職務還有那個官職等那這個是在那個聘用人員聘用條例第七條第一項的這個規定這個本院是絕對會遵守齁那在這一次那個組織法呢我們也是遵循以上的那個規定做前提來做一個規定的齁那所以就是我們看回到就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
26355.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
26368.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
20條之一第一項這個所謂的這一個呃寫上這個子等他是只有在只有提醒一下委員會請看這張白色的不是看紙本的那個報紙色的這張他有做一個修正他請繼續對就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
26371.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
26391.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
第一項的這個所謂的這個官職等呢他是只有專門在規範任用的這個管道那至於說那個第四項這個聘用呢他當然他不會有這個所謂的官職等那我們為了就是說不要引起那個誤解所以我們這一次在那個今天在 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
26391.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
26414.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
理由中我們有做一個紅色的修正就是特別把這個意旨把它表明得更清楚免得引起誤解就是在最後面我們加上了至於本項規定聘用的稅務審查官本無第一項官職等規定的適用自無待明定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
26417.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
26418.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
主席跟委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
26445.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
26465.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
主席各位委員我是全序部選人司代表檢視查林戴帆那部裡頭針對這個部分主要是比較擔憂就是行政法院組織法第20條之一的這個條文可能會跟聘用條例的第7條第一項有所焊隔但是剛剛副秘書長已經有在 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
26468.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
26484.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
剛剛跟各位表達說這個部分呢其實他們是會遵守聘用條例的規定不會違反該條例的相關規定那如果是有在法案裡頭予以成名的話那本部予以尊重 以上好 那就讓委員會知道一下目前行政機關已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
26486.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
26507.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
都認同用立法說明的方式表達那如果我們下次審議到行政法院組織法的部分我們就把行政院跟司法院的意見就以這樣的修正內容的立法說明的修正內容部分來呈現那請問那個人事總署有沒有表達意見那個是蔡專務委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
26509.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
26531.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
那請 人事總處這邊有關聘用人員的部分我們是尊重聘用法治主管機關的意見那有關任用跟借調的部分呢我們是尊重司法院以及大院審議結果 以上那關於付表的部分有沒有其他的機關有意見 付表的部分大家看到這個報紙社的這一本 46月47月付表講完就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
26540.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
26565.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
有沒有 副表可不可以問人事總書這邊是過去在交易給行政院審議的時候人事總書這邊是有提供一些就是因為這次在草案的部分副表有增置了這個司法事務官10人的部分那我們是有去查過說最高行政法院在108年到112年的新收案量其實是呈現一個浮動的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
26566.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
26585.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
那實際的案量可能也有減少那我們不確定說這個部分司法院在判斷說要增加到10個人這個地方他的這個原額計算基準是什麼那是不是要做這樣的調整可能還可以再做考量 以上好 提案接問代表我們那麼司法院廳長還是副廳長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
26589.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
26614.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
這上面所列的那個零到十齁它可能是從零也有可能是我們全部只會聘用一個那那個一直到十這只是為了以後就是有一個那個彈性啊就是說以後隨著那個案件的那個什麼情形有增加的那個必要的時候我們不要再一直那個修法那但是我們目前那個預估我們大概是大概就是會用那個幾個啊當然不會是用到十那個以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
26616.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
26643.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
好 那麼跟委員會報告那麼請問委員會對於剛剛的這個內容如果都已經知悉的話那我們接續下來未來如果審到行政法院組織法的部分那當然前提是稅審法的稅審官我們在審稅審法第25條同意之後我們行政法院組織法部分關於這個條文的部分及附表的部分我們就如司法院及行政院代表他們的意見內容去做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
26644.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
26646.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
好 那請問那提案計劃還有沒有要補充沒有齁因為你們來了一整天了在等這個好 那這樣我就做個宣告了齁好 那麼有關討論事項第二案未及處理部分決議另定期繼續審查那麼本次會議進行到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家 |