| IVOD_ID |
16439 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16439 |
| 日期 |
2025-01-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2025-01-02T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-01-02T15:05:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
06:35:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6852b89873ec9b2dea2ad9f551ce5fa921f529fa0cca45d56272c26370ed5b8f05e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-01-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：請勞動部、衛生福利部、教育部就「推動友善職場、校園性騷擾與霸凌防治及長照悲歌並檢討現行長照制度缺失與長照3.0規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 15:05:59 |
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53.831 |
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54.599 |
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by bwd6 |
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1924.745 |
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1929.772 |
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你們現在開始開會出席委員已逐法定人數現在開會請議事人員先讀上次議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1944.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1968.733 |
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立法院第十一屆第二會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第十六次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十三年十二月二十五日星期三九十三分至十五十五十五分十二月二十六日星期四九十三分至十三十四十六分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員黃委員秀芳等十五人列席委員顏委員匡衡等十一人列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1969.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1983.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
蘇召集委員清泉報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續審查中華民國一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管公務預算部分決議一審查完據內容如審查結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1984.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2003.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
二中華民國一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部衛生福利部及環境部主管公務預算案均審查完略提報院會討論院會討論前須交黨團協商院會討論時由蘇兆吉委員清泉及黃兆吉委員修方補充說明三有關正識別說出預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2003.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2016.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
隨同以上機關別審查結果調整審查結果一 稅務部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第183項衛生福利部465萬元照列第184項疾病管制署60萬元照列第185項食品藥物管理署175萬元照列 |
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2020.635 |
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2040.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第一八六項中央健康保險署三千六百八十萬三千元照列第一八七項國民健康署一百五十七萬六千元照列第一八八項社會及家庭署無列數第一八九項國家中醫藥研究所無列數第三款規費收入第一五二項衛生福利部二一一千零六十六萬五千元照列 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2040.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2062.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
本項通過決議一項第一五三項疾病管制署一億三千三百五十三萬九千元照列第一五四項食品藥物管理署十九億一千一百二十九萬六千元照列第一五五項中央健康保險署二億零三百三十萬二千元照列第一五六項國民健康署五列數第四款財產收入第一九六項衛生福利部七百零八萬三千元照列 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2063.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2074.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第197項疾病管制署485,000元照列第198項食品藥物管理署177,000元照列第199項中央健康保險署245,500元照列第200項國民健康署165,000元照列第201項社會及家庭署149,000元照列第5款 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2082.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2103.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
營業營餘及事業收入第十一項食品藥物管理署原列二億元系非營業特種基金管制藥品製藥工廠作業基金剩餘繳庫佔照列四所屬非營業特種基金審議確定後再行調整第七款其他收入第194項衛生福利部六千二百九十七萬七千元照列第195項疾病疾病管制署 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2103.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2125.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
八十四萬九千元招列第196項食品藥物管理署十七萬三千元招列第197項中央健康保險署九十六萬四千元招列第198項國民健康署八萬八千元招列第199項社會及家庭署三億八千九百一十三萬一千元招列第二00項國家中醫藥研究所十六萬三千元招列二稅出部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2127.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2148.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第十七款衛生福利部主管第一項衛生福利部原列二千七百八十五億六千九百五十三萬七千元除第十六目非營業特種基金一億一千四百六十七萬五千元佔照列四所屬非營業特種基金審議確定後再行調整外檢列第七目一般行政向下基本行政工作維持中業務非之水電費五十萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2148.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2167.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
第八目依正業務向下新南向一位合作與產業鏈發展中長程計劃第二期五十萬元以上共計減列一百萬元科目軍自行調整其餘軍照列改列為二千七百八十五億六千八百五十三萬七千元本項提案十七案保留送院會處理本項通過決議二百四十七項 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2168.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2186.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
第二項疾病管制署原列一百二十一億五千四百七十一萬三千元檢列第二幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持中業務費之水電費百分之五科目自行調整其餘均照列改列為一百二十一億五千四百一十八萬二千元本項通過決議二十五項第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2187.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2204.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
食品藥物管理署原列三十六億零六百七十九萬五千元簡列第二幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持中業務費之水電費五十萬元第三幕食品藥物管理業務向下食品管理工作二百萬元第三幕食品藥物管理業務向下 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2205.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2225.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
藥妝管理工作中藥品及管制藥品管理計畫十萬元第三目食品藥物管理業務向下藥妝管理工作中藥健康精進藥物及化妝品全生命週期管理第三期計畫五十萬元以上共計減列三百一十萬元科目均自行調整其餘均照列改列為三十六億零三百六十九萬五千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2226.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2245.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
本項提案一案保留送院會處理本項通過決議七十七項第四項中央健康保險署原列一百七十八億八千零六十萬六千元簡列第一幕科技業務向下業務費中水電費二十萬元第二幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持中辦公大樓水電費百分之五 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2245.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2266.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第三目健保業務項下保費收繳及醫療費用和副作業一百萬元以上共計減列一百六十九萬一千元科目軍自行調整其餘軍照列改列為一百七十八億七千八百九十一萬五千元本項通過決議四十九項第五項國民健康署原列一百一十一億八千零九十一萬九千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2266.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2282.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
簡列第二幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持中業務費之水電費5%第二幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持中業務費之特別費10萬元以上共計簡列151,000元科目均自行調整其餘均照列改列為111億8,076萬8千元本項通過決議65項第6項社會及家庭署原列465億1911 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2290.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2308.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
4萬3千元除第五目非營業特種基金8208萬5千元佔照列四所屬非營業特種基金衛生福利特別收入基金審議確定後再行調整本項提案一案保留送院會處理本項通過決議53項第七項國家中醫藥研究所2億6734萬8千元照列本項通過決議12項宣讀完畢好 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2319.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2337.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺落之處沒有 那我們議事錄確定我們本日的會議議程是邀請勞動部、衛生福利部、教育部就推動友善職場、校園性騷擾與霸凌防治 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2340.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2351.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
及長照杯葛並檢視現行長照制度缺失與長照3.0規劃進行專案報告並備諮詢那我們現在介紹在場的委員陳昭志委員林業勤委員王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2367.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2395.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
讓我們介紹初期的行政官員勞動部部長 洪順翰勞動力發展署 代理署長 陳世昌好 你好 歡迎職業安全衛生署 署長 周子蓮勞動福祉退休師 市長 謝倩倩我每次都讀這個你們母親都這麼好名 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2398.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2405.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃維琛勞動保險司司長陳美女會計處處長林美信密疏處處長丁玉珍衛生福利部部長邱太元 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2425.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2443.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
政府次長呂健德好 歡迎 歡迎保護服務司司長張秀嫣好 歡迎人事處處長李玉慧辛苦你了 辛苦你了心理健康師代理司長鄭淑欣 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2446.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2466.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
社會保險師代理市長陳真惠長期照顧師副市長吳希文歡迎醫事師專門委員郭威中歡迎護理及健康照護師檢論記證陳清梅歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2472.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2491.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
中央健康保險署副署長陳亮宇好 歡迎社會及家庭署組長游宜君好 歡迎教育部學生事務及特殊教育師師長吳林輝好 謝謝人事處專門委員陳佩君好 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2498.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2525.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
國民及協淺教育署專門委員薛澄祐歡迎 歡迎國立台灣大學主任秘書王大明好 歡迎 歡迎國立台灣大學副社醫院院長吳明賢今天很多人要問你副院長高淑芬主任趙瑜軒好 歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2529.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2553.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
台大醫學院護舍院北副分院院長詹鼎正好 歡迎行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處處長陳葉春好 歡迎主編人力處專門委員曾永芳好 歡迎 歡迎公務人員保障局培訓委員會處長黃秀琴好 歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2562.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2564.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好接下來我們請先請勞動部部長報告齁時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2575.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2603.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主席 各位委員女士先生那今天貴委員會排定推動友善職場校園性騷擾及霸凌防治及長照杯葛並檢討現行長照制度缺失與長照山林規劃專題報告本部應要列席說明並聆聽各位人之建議那非常榮幸敬請委員不吝指教那就本部業務部分報告如下第一個就業歧視之禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2604.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2627.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
性別平等工作法跟就業服務法中高齡及高齡者就業促進法已有明定僱主對於求職者或受僱者不得以性別、身心障礙或年齡等為由而有差別待遇僱主違反就業歧視禁止相關規定者應處罰還並公佈姓名本部皆以多元管道加強宣導防制就業歧視 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2629.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2645.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
職場性騷擾防治的部分是性別工作平等法於113年3月8日修正施行首重強化雇主之防治意識及責任明確界定雇主之息性騷擾之情形應採取之立即有效的糾正及補救措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2646.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2667.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
並提供或轉介被害人諮詢醫療或心理諮商社會福利資源等和其他必要的服務完善被害人保護及輔助制度建立外部公權力申訴調查機制對於被申訴之僱主所為調查或懲戒結果不符可向地方主管機關再申訴另訂權勢性騷擾罪重可解雇 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2669.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2678.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
懲罰性賠償規定及最高負責或雇用人為性騷擾行為人質行政法等周延保護被害人嚇阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2680.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2703.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
職場性騷擾事件發生此外亦強化公務部門相關人員的權利保障公務人員教育人員及軍職人員如遭受機關最高負責任性騷擾明定應向上級機關所屬機關或監督機關申訴且定有調查期間先行停止或調整職務之規定以利調查之執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2705.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2727.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
查證屬實依法裁處後續就計依該各該人事法令規定辦理為使地方主管機關掌握狹內狹內性騷擾事件相關事件並立教育主管機關查詢依性別性別平等工作法認定之性騷擾行為人以避免不適任之教育人員進入校園領域依法僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2728.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2739.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
接獲被害人申訴及調查院定署性調查至案件均應通知地方署管機關本部以建置職場性騷擾案件通報系統定期統計三 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2742.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2758.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
未維護本勞工之身心健康之安全衛生法已經明定雇主對於執行職務且因他人行為遭受身體或精神不法侵害預防之義務不法侵害案件如涉民法刑法或其他法律時則由該 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2760.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2787.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
管主管機關或司法機關依規定調查或認定因應各界對於本部強化職場霸凌防治之訴求包括訂定專訪或修正職業安全衛生法提升現行不法侵害預防指引法律位階明確職場霸凌定義強化申訴管道調查處理及救濟機制本部目前課證收集歐盟美國日本及韓國等國家對職場霸凌預防及處理之做法並邀請 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2789.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2816.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
相關學者專家勞資團體及地方勞政機關共同研議實務務實可行的做法預計於立法院11屆第三會期將修正草案送立法院審查為加強勞工權益保護本部於完成修法前將優先完成執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引之修正強化職場霸凌定義與申訴管道及外部專家參與調查處理機制並結合裁判法人 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2819.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2824.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這個職業災害及預防重建中心這樣宣導那並提供諮詢及勞工心理諮商等服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2826.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2854.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那第四促進工作平等措施性別平等工作法相關措施性別平等工作法定有產檢假、陪產檢假安胎休養請假產假、孕流停停薪哺乳時期調整或減少工作時間及家庭照顧等各項促進工作平等措施那受僱者如有需求皆可依法提出申請那 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2856.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2877.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
為建構更友善的生養環境已於113年完成彈性短天期滋運流停流質停薪事辦計劃後續將根據事辦結果進行檢討原意優化相關措施那相關的這個我們跟包括跟長照3.0相關的作為請大家可以參考我們提出提出來的報告以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2881.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2883.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝部長然後繼續我們請邱部長報告 五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2890.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2915.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
主席 各位委員先生 女士先生 大家好今天大案第十一則第二會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開前提會議採取成交列席生涯榮幸有關專案報告推動友善職場需要人性騷擾以霸凌防止及長照被革命檢討現行長照制度確實以長照3.0規劃進展參與書面報告以下向各位委員則要說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2915.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2937.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
首先 針對推動友善職場及霸凌防治方面本部定有相關作業規定並逐年混同修正以其精進完善請各位委員查列書面報告今日委員關心本部職場霸凌調查報告本部已依12月16日衛環會決議趨勢變化兩週內侵蝕調查報告向衛環委員會報告委員報告目前依舊調查作業方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2945.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2962.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
訪談政績呈現方式及調查報告格式及內容等說明也感謝委員提供精進建議自12月17日起至31日起委員會具有兩位召集委員及等13名朝野立法委員聽取報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2964.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2989.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
目前調查報告完成後本部已在公開聲明如果新市政歡迎澄清人、域名或有律師並代陪同將新市政交由本部本部當立案處理以共同釐清事實真相澄清的亦可透過行政案已成立之職場霸凌通報平台進行順適該平台對於當事人資料已有保密機制本部對職場霸凌事件當依法秉公辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2991.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2996.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
勿縱勿枉也感謝這次調查過程當中同意而信任我們會確保其隱私 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2996.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3021.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
近百位同仁愿意说明其自身经历以协助厘清事实我们当然更珍惜同仁这次处理的过程也是我们将挑战转化为改进以成长的契机所以除齐门主管应有自我察觉意识及强化管理能力外我们不可及时启动员工协助方案事实接触每一位需要帮助的同仁更有善 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3022.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3036.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
更有活力的職場環境,讓同仁可以發揮專長,實現理想,為國家社會服務,順便責無旁貸的責任其次,針對長照2.0重要執行成果部分,本部於106年推動長照10.7和2.0,提供多元化之長照服務,其113年9月長照服務人士達75萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3047.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3068.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
多人較106年成長7倍服務涵蓋率達85.43%本部將增加結合地方政府及民眾資源普及長照服務體系針對長照服務強化方面推動家庭照顧支持服務透過家庭照顧者支持性服務創新型計畫以20%共部件131處加照據點出來為了有利相關網路單位便是高單位照 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3076.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3103.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
負荷者 糾正高負荷家庭照顧者出差指標納入照顧者疑似有藥酒飲使用毒品者自殺醫院為成年照顧者應轉介地方衛生單位或社安網體系等並依長照照高負荷家庭照顧者轉介及負荷程執行提升對照顧者服務接觸之實效為撤進作為上強化縣市督導管理機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3104.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3124.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
輔導服務提供單位提供提升醫療服務品質,擴增長照服務量能,除外本部應用不同媒體通路持續強化醫對多照護,照護是專業的觀念先導,其引發民眾控感,藉以翻轉民眾照護觀念,提高其對長照服務之認識及使用意願。 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3125.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3130.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
最後針對長照3.0制規劃藍圖本部將與相關部會持續M3長照3.0規劃內容加強醫療與長照不同體系間的銜接機制重整儲物流程期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3141.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3165.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
長照服務對象可以在出院前及已完成照顧計劃擬定順暢服務銜接打造居家社區機構醫療社福一體式服務即可達到健康老化專研善中之目標以上為本部針對此次專程報告提出簡料說明感謝各位委員支持教育監督再次敬致謝誠並請各位委員繼續予以支持 以上謝謝邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3176.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3200.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
有關本市會議及各項書面資料盡列入記錄刊登公報我們現在開始詢答做以下宣告本委員會的委員質詢時間8分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止還原登記委員如果書面質詢請於上會前提出預期不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3201.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3220.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那沿著上我們10點半左右休息10分鐘那我們今天可能要早一點就是在蘇軍權委員執行完之後我們處理臨時提案所以有臨時提案的趕快送上來現在我們開始尋答請登記第一位委員陳昭芝 執行謝謝主席 麻煩邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3235.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3253.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
部長你們那份不公開的霸凌調查報告人事處處長已經到我辦公室來說明我個人看過又完全不能接受那部長你怎麼會去買單這個簡直是這個草率至極的有呂次長交出來報告我想請問你看過這個報告沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3255.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3274.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
你沒有看嗎 沒關係我來告訴你我是如何聆聽跟搶記的搶記 因為他把資料帶回去了部長你看一下投影片我們來看一下這個調查報告內容因為我收到最多的是衛福部來自對祖密的一個投訴我以它為例 因為資料很多以對祖密的調查總共有140份的這個匿名問卷當中有47份指出 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3279.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3284.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
劉祖密曾經歇斯底里的大聲咆哮這個佔了33.6%還有52份的問卷指出劉祖密有言語肢體或心理暴力的行為部長這個佔37%一個33.6%一個37%你不覺得這個調查的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3299.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3310.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
跟這個你的調查結論霸凌不成立有落差很大嗎三成的人都說他有霸凌行為結果調查說霸凌不成立部長發生什麼事情你沒看過對不對你沒看過好你繼續我們尊重調查委員又來了你完全不負責任來除了這個問卷調查報告調查查詢也有進行訪談我請你訪談的人是誰怎麼找的因為人事處長沒有辦法回答我你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3330.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3354.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
怎麼找的好我來教你好了針對劉益君的案子訪問了17個人其中15位都說主命沒有問題你們就用這15個人的說法來說霸凌沒有成立嗎但是其中17位裡面有兩位受訪者寫出了這個東西還有50幾份問卷剛剛我已經秀給大家看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3356.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3369.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
認為是有三十幾個person是認為是有霸凌的符合你們定的這個霸凌標準那個這幾份他說什麼劉玉娟在台北業務組沒有直接對我大聲咆哮但我看過幾次劉玉娟對同仁咆哮我不記得具體內容這是17份你們不知道怎麼挑的裡面的兩份有人這樣留 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3375.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3392.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
我們做得那麼辛苦還要被罵覺得很委屈錄音帶的內容就是我釋出的內容已經檢舉人同意跟我當時感受一樣很像他會講的話語氣就是他講的話風格讓我感到不舒服部長你們應該要建立機制啊那五十幾位說他有霸凌曾經經常或總是 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3396.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3412.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
他沒有辦法接受訪談你就隨便找了十七個人裡面十五個人說他沒問題你認為這樣報告會不會失真啊部長如果你是我你收單嗎你買單嗎可不可以容許我請那個召集人理事來他不要不然我還要繼續理事長你好好聽你站著好好聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3413.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3438.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
部長你繼續看頭影片上面這個字眼都是匿名的人留下的字眼你看衛福部員工就是你的管理的衛福部員工所用文字寫下來的恐懼你看中間衛福部官官相護只想吵吵結案官場現象對衛福部沒信心難道反應了就有用嗎可能事後只會被弄得更慘無法確保人身及職場安全因此無法留下聯絡資訊好右邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3439.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3450.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們只是想要好好工作大家擔心的是被秋後算帳我仍在衛福部任職罷被秋後算帳所以不留可見的霸凌行為包括咆哮謾罵冷落惡意批評或貶低等多種樣態也出現明顯耍官威破壞組織體制好左邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3456.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3475.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
擔心不可預測的後果會影響後續的權益被罵的最慘的是科長以及秘書同仁身為旁觀者因為工作環境不佳也隨時想辭去公職如果沒有調查到對的人是沒有辦法問出事實的這是你的員工留下的文字恐懼我讓你做參考呂次長你也跟著聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3479.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3494.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
部長 為劉玉堅叫人家自殺的錄音檔流出來以後你們記他兩個身屆免監社保司司長但外宣主義他還是 質疑他還是主命啊你一直告訴我們說主命只是幕僚單位替他開脫 你騙外行人啊來看看衛福部的處務規程主命的職責是什麼 第三條框起來的 第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3504.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3524.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
機密及重要文件的處理我當時就是擔心秋後算帳員工不肯講真話我問人事室處長他說他在管理沒有問題我說但是他是你的上司他叫你要看你不給他看嗎現在都不用看他事過境遷他完全可以看因為衛福部的機要跟重要資料機密資料都是他來講理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3528.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3551.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
部長在這個情況下誰敢說真話他的職權就是準備處理機密及重要文件之處理部長你繼續下來看理事長你好好聽著來你看看這一張你一直告訴我尊重你又來了尊重這個小組的專業但是調查結果小組名單也不公布調查結果也不讓大家知道我們看看勞動部兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3553.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3559.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
好 勞動部至少在第一次調查報告 載明了調查小組的成員公開的調查報告還傳上網你為甚麼不查這麼多 你數兩天而已你跟我說的藉口 人家勞動部至少做到了你如果不知道怎麼做 你去問洪聖翰怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3572.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3591.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
不過彭部長你現在也有新的案子發生我希望你秉持一貫的水準好好處理今天好像又有這個新的案子上次我們要求你公開報告你說私底下跟我們委員講如果有不滿意我們再進一步處理我現在就告訴你我不滿意證據我已經告訴大家了請問你要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3593.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3614.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
你一直上次你跟這個理事長一直說擔心擔心就是說被這個公開報告以後會讓人暗圖所記知道哪些人約談我看過報告就完全這個是這個完全是藉口啊你看我今天報告哪裡看出是誰被約談有嗎所以我今天已經再次提案了我跟總召報備了我要求公開報告重啟調查如果說誰要護短那我就表決我們來看看讓大家看看是誰在護短 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3623.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3628.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
到底誰要互轉動用心高規格然後又不敢讓社會知道的調查內容報告好 呂氏你可以請回了好 邱部長現在我要來看台大醫院 台大醫院性騷案可不可以給我們回答一下好 請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3641.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3664.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
我想非常感謝我們陳昭之委員我想對於我們同仁的這個關心我想這個我們大家都是一起希望能夠為同仁能夠創造一個更好的環境不過我想委員您應該我剛剛提到的那些缺點對 裡面的瑕疵阿包委員 那我們也都我想委員也都是在學術界也待過你也做過量化也做過質化研究特別是質化研究裡面我們有對當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3665.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3692.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
你做任何研究之前我已經講了50幾天有問題你找了17年所有人說他沒問題答案就沒問題我想這個都有限所以我想這些都必須所以我不滿意啦你當初我不滿意就繼續處理就繼續處理好嗎所以我今天有臨時離開另外第二點我們這個整個確實整個過程呢我們都是你要想辦法讓人家公開講真話你別說他不肯來我就沒辦法啦那還調查什麼我們本來就是用公開的方式啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3693.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3722.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我剛剛講那麼多缺點 你不要再反駁了你就針對我剛剛講的缺點去處理就好了好 請回 吳院長你一邊聽 你向來說2019年8月台大急診部送診管理室動手摸女同事的腰跟臀部這已經發生了台大醫院博物室第一回2023年6月台大的女教授自己接入自己在當研修醫師時曾在開刀房遇到性騷擾自己站在對方背後去觀摩開刀實況時某教授說今天怎麼這麼小 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3723.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3731.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
一直說某教授無法從背後感知他胸部的大小今年9月 去年應該是去年9月台大骨科部主任強制違憲難怪有人說陽光灑不進白色巨塔 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3739.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3754.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
除此之外去年六月金三科大佬李明斌一時也爆出性騷案他不僅僅是台灣自殺防制學會理事長也是衛福部委辦的台灣全國自殺防制中心計劃主持人 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3755.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3775.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
曾在台大醫院精神部受訓的女醫師向媒體投訴李明斌的性騷行為是一件請聽好喔邱部長可能你還是要再再再席只要在台大精神醫學部受訓過的女性都必須了解被口耳相傳要交班要交班有這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3776.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3789.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
對於出入精神科的住院醫師來說幾乎是毀滅性的傷害所以當時就有醫師說院內三宿管道是最大的障眼法如果不痛定思痛會有無數個李明斌 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3791.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3807.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
請問吳院長今天台大大學派了個主秘來這個校長真是藐視國會將近一年半的時間你有痛定思痛嗎你們做了什麼吳院長對這個醫師對林明斌的指控你做了什麼還有前面的部分做了什麼指控做了什麼改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3810.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3830.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那我可以先回答一下我其實上面有數據只要有申訴人提出欣賞事實上在院內已經處理從114年就處理過很多的後面還有很多問題那我先從黃姓李教授這件問題我一定要澄清因為黃姓李教授他當 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3835.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3863.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
當那個這不是在這邊澄清問題我們要求的是一個調查報告我們一個制度的問題有有有這個你們要求的報告我們一定都會有剛才我說邱部長剛才我說李明斌的保魂他現在還有重要職位專科醫學會你在乎這個問題嗎還是你們要切割你要不持最高道德標準他現在已經沒有擔任衛福部的任何工作了你確定確定上次上次我們質詢的時候確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3865.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3894.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
但是你要用辦法,你不是說這次因為要堵不住那個女醫師出來投訴所以你就做了一個因人設事處理好,我還有後面的台大婦產部主任楊主任楊主任的聲明中提到,你看他自己寫聲明自己獲悉西教授疑似對被害人進行性騷擾的以示以後為了保護被害人或協助其相關保全證據的證明僅私下詢問是否上有其他人證或物證這個楊主任沒說好,一段話三句話,三句話都有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3895.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3916.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
什麼叫自己獲悉?難道這個是正式管道告訴他的嗎?還是有人泄密?不是只有當事人可以知道嗎?他為什麼會自己獲悉?第二個,保護被害人並協助保全相關證據,照理說被害人沒有跟他陳述啊,他不應該知道被害人是誰啊?姓名會調查是秘密進行,他也沒有權利來保護被害人的這個保全證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3918.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3929.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
第三個是警司下詢問是否有其他人證物證我可不可以合理懷疑他是在通風暴行帶風向啊他想要問這個被害人你到底知道什麼好回去跟這個西教授說他只有這個問題你還要辦法處理這像話嗎楊主任講這個話像話嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3937.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3963.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
你也知道我們全家都是台大校友該做的事 該是深者之切不對的事就是要做台大校本部你接獲這個投訴案以後為什麼今天台大校長不過來兩邊推來推去 你晚交報告他要把你推回去 聽說來來回回十次到底是誰要隱瞞這個事情啊到底是誰想拖延這個事情啊來來回回 到現在沒有正式的懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3966.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3988.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我可以給我一個時間我謝謝陳委員提悉性消息拜託主席讓我講好你講沒有就是說你很快的告訴我我剛剛只問一個問題來來回回這麼多次在拖延嗎這件事情其實是院方主動立案因為沒有申訴人我們聽聞有這樣的消息主動立案那第二個我們總共開了一次工作小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3988.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4010.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
不對啊 那些醫師考完專科醫師執照就趕去來跟很多人申訴囉沒有沒有 那個都有給我知道 等到考完專科醫師有六次調查報告然後有兩次委員會 而且我們考記委員會你就是持交嘛沒有沒有持交 因為根據我們的那個其實在二月立案 六月就已經做出懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4011.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4032.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
一直說他的報告你的報告不完整啊挑剔你啊沒有申訴人他沒有時間的一個報告但是院方主動根據我們那個性騷髮的那個規定大家委員可以看假如是有申訴人必須要再二加一個院你的處理我還有很多意見好那我再講楊主任並不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4033.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4056.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
並不是裡面的委員所以他怎麼會知道這件事呢他還跟當事人詢問呢他被調來做在調查小組裡面的時候他是被叫來問他才知道有這件事情所以楊子潤他沒有講得很清楚再謝謝委員給我一個澄清因為事實上台大醫院這裡未必澄清你講的未必是事實我們都還認證好好沒問題我們都有記錄往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4057.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4064.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
兩位部長你們看看台大醫院的這個工會在12月12號就是不久前一個月前聲明台大醫院性騷事件工會會要完善性平制度你們兩個有沒有看到這個這份聲明他向台大醫院院方指出說他說要公佈性平會的成員名單除了可以讓當事人檢視以外也可以加強外部機制但是你們始終不可我想請問你發生這麼多事情以後院長你還強調說這個性平會委員名單不能公佈嗎為什麼人家這個勞動部可以公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4087.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4113.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
然後外部部我覺得公會公會有他們的立場你的姓平會根本沒有成員你們外部專家有沒有外部專家公會有他們的立場但是不一定公會講的都是對的姓平會是不是有這個外部專家有有外部專家你都不公開啊我們這時候都專家當時道德部知事還告訴我們有外部專家姓平委員會還有這一次我怎麼信任呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4116.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4127.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
所以我剛剛提出提案啊 你名單又不公佈 告訴我們有外部專家你不要騙人名單是沒有辦法公佈 但是我們的委員裡面有三位外部都是這相關的專家然後每次的調查都還會有兩個律師跟著你說的啦 我看不懂啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4135.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4141.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
對是但是這個我只能夠跟你講事情就一直燃燒還沒有結案當事人謝教授也沒有收到懲處還沒有正式懲處對不對還有很多這個居間這個在台大醫院在台大醫院我們是積極的調查我們也立即從這個結果主動調查不管您說的幾位案件現在還是選任 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4157.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4168.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
他們有一些他的本職還是在教職所以在醫院的部分我們絕對是非常積極的調查也很清楚的有這個調查報告這個都有調查報告而且在六月份的時候考機委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4175.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4199.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我跟妳講妳公佈有公佈的方法選選流動部好妳看看好我最後一個因為它不是法律案件所以沒有辦法公佈不是法律案件妳要破壞繼續破壞醫療機構的形象嗎其實我們還是公家單位要有法可依有法可依法行政這件事情台大醫院都依法行政因為我們也主動通報其實妳看那個性騷法只屬的台北市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4201.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4218.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那個淨沙法裡面都有我想今天我們在立法院我們在公家機關我們做事就是要有法可依有法可行依法行政這一件事情我們都依法行政我們的結果也不只給台灣大學我們也給台北市醫師公會也有給全聯會然後有相關的衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4219.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4238.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
或甚至你剛才講你批的那個也是送給總統府所以我們完全依法而且立即處理那真的是挑燈夜戰沒有一分的延遲那另外我在這裡也趁機我想這裡有很多媒體我在這裡趁機一次把謝謝委員給我們一次說清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4238.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4249.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
在這個案子裡面在整個調查過程當中並沒有台大醫院並沒有受到任何的壓力我們也沒有收到任何的關訴我不知道這是從何而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4251.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4257.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
你要聽聽被害人的聲音啊你身為院長好最後你們是自己台灣女醫師協會對姓名事件的聲明這個我不在這邊同念因為整個姓名三法不同身份中的事件發生或情境的適用不同那看似好像可以適用但是實務進度上可能造成這個法規適用的重疊或者漏洞我跟你講每個機構都有說要申報內部的申報機制但是不好嘛部長你剛剛談到我舉給你看嘛140個人你找出了誰來你怎麼找的 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4281.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4298.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
那台大醫院這件事情都還沒有解決啊這個都醫生考完專科醫師指導才敢出來講才敢跟立委申訴啊表示什麼他害怕啊害怕啊院長請你好好三思齁我這時間到了不然我還有更多的表達好謝謝主席謝謝陳委員謝謝部長還有吳院長啊接續我們請你也請委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4313.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4339.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
主席早 麻煩我們的勞動部的洪部長跟衛福部的邱部長和教育部的吳林輝司長好 要進入到今天主題之前先問兩個部長上週開放80歲以上免聘的聘僱移工已經強制通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4340.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4363.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
先問勞動部這樣子的衝擊是什麼跟林委員說明那確實在我想立法院在修這個救護法46條的時候那可能初衷是在想說怎麼讓很多的家庭看護工的申請人可以更方便那這個我們理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4364.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4382.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
但是確實在跨國勞動力的供給跟需求上面因為供給一直以來都有賴元母國的限制它不是完全可以操控在本國政府手上的事情所以我們確實很擔心其實這個修法過後 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4383.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4410.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
會在供需上面更加的失衡那如果供需更加失衡的話可能會導致這個會有一些看護工他這個器重則輕所以會有一些重症尤其是他們是最需要照顧的家庭他們其實未來可能要找看護工更困難或者是要留人也更困難的狀況這變成是對於這些最需要的人在他們的權益上面會受到衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4411.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4419.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
所以不只是調工的問題會不會讓價錢往上上漲之後讓很多家庭是沒辦法負擔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4420.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4445.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
確實在這樣子的搶工狀況之下可能就會有蠻多的家庭他們會選擇這個薪資上面的負擔要再往上提高那這個可能會是整體的會要加錢或者要提高成本來聘股其實就有點像是當時在幾年前疫情的那個狀況會可能會有點類似那這是我們目前其實大概預判可能會有的幾個相關的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4449.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4462.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那衛福部呢 邱副長衛福部的說明以外我接著再補充一點就是我們在其實80歲以上的老人有些還是不一定是需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4464.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4481.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
他的健康狀況所以過去多了一層醫療的一個評估其實這個醫療的巴斯量表對醫師來講是一種很不喜歡的責任因為在評估上面真的要非常的小心以前他動輒 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4482.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4508.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
得救這樣子所以但是基於對於我們真的把把那麼稀少的一個外籍過來的人力能夠用在重重度真的需要的病人身上這是我想我是醫療界也是必須要去承擔這個社會的責任那第二個就是說那個因為我們這些比較稍微還可以自己照顧的我們很希望他能夠到醫隊多到據點到關懷據點到 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4512.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4527.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
到各個出來走出家裡去跟人家互動那這種所謂的一對多的照顧會讓他的一個精神狀況或者是智能的一個維持會更好如果說你就一對一我就把他關在家裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4530.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4550.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們很擔心從政康的狀況來講他的失能的狀況是不是會變得比較快所以好像看起來跟我們2008年WHA提出來的政策不太一樣就是說本來我們就是希望活力老化結果反而事實上80歲結果反而是讓更多的人被照顧之後反而讓他 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4551.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4576.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
更快的老化那謝謝兩位部長那今天要來談也就是說性平三法3月8號公佈實施之後那遇到近日社會所矚目的臺大醫院的婦產科西教授的性騷案跟兒蒙的性騷案跟麥當勞的性侵案所以本席認為應該要針對這些相關的法律來做討論首先先想要問的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4578.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4600.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
針對於也就是台大醫院西教授的新燒案當中去年初就在醫界流傳一直到去年10月的份有很多被害人一起跟我們的台大醫院院方檢舉才爆發可是遲遲到今年2月醫院才開啟內部的調查機制想問兩個部長跟司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4602.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4610.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
第一個台灣大學附設醫院發生性騷案件主管單位是誰用哪一部法律來處理職場的職場的要不要先 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4618.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4639.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
因為看起來那個受害者應該是住院醫師理論上屬於職場的這個性騷擾所以性供嗎還是性騷嗎應該是依照性供法性供法那就是我們的勞動部那就回來再問那就要問勞動部在性供法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4640.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4656.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
的確沒有規定可是性騷的話所以就很特別今天如果是性供的話是勞動部那他沒有任何的時間規定可是性騷的話事實上是7日內應該要啟動調查那性貧的話事實上3日內那 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4657.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4680.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
醫院接受這樣的性騷 那到底要多久發動 你們現在講性供嗎那跟其他的 今天在醫院事實上是聘僱的一個關係裡邊可是實際上它又是政府部門 可是它又事實上是教職兼我們的醫職所以難道不是我們的教育部性評嗎 難道不是衛福部主管的性騷嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4682.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4707.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那個跟文說明確實在這個案子裡面這個教授他他可能多重身份他可能公務員的身份他可能是雇主但其實性供法是適用這些所有的身份的所以確實就這個法就這個相關因為他是在職場上面的案件來說目前應該會是用性供法來做來做相關的處理好那本案112年10月提出檢舉113年2月就開始啟動 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4711.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4715.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
台大醫院到底有沒有延遲調查這是不是請台大醫院務院長能夠幫忙再把流程這個案子我們會把整個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4729.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4741.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
事實上這個案子並沒有申訴人那我們高淑芬副院長她是姓平衛的主任委員她主動知道沒有申訴人的話你們為什麼10月的確你們講說因為這檢舉案當中沒有申訴人可是為什麼2月就10月底提出檢舉這事呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4749.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4776.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
就是因為我知道高副院長跟我報告的時候我馬上成立工作小組就是二月馬上成立因為高副院長跟我報告的時候他是我們的姓名會的主任委員他跟我報告的時候我馬上成立所以我才剛才有一加就是成立工作小組六次調查一加六加上兩次的委員會加上一次的考記委員會我們在六月就做出 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4777.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4800.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那沒有申訴人的時候根據我們的法律其實它是沒有一個有申訴人是2加1最慢要在三個月做出來所以這個我們都有去就法律層面來看對 性騷的確事實上是要2加1然後可是性平的話是2加1加1所以我不知道到底你們這個到底有沒有延遲 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4801.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4819.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
好我想沒有言辭我2月1號我收到學生受害者寫給我簡訊然後我也跟他談過那希望他能夠提出聲勢學生是在醫院還是在學校醫院醫院那其實上他現在是碩士班的學生他是醫院的住院醫師那 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4819.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4839.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
2月2號我馬上就跟院長提我們就根據新改的一個法 僱主之息性騷擾行為雖然他的本職是在學校但是以我們的經驗他現在在台大醫院發生這個事情所以我們還是把他納入就開始然後2月5號我們就開始調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4842.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4869.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
這個過程其實只有三位受害者願意接受訪談那這個要訪談的人相當的多那我們也是要聚集專門的調查小組所以剛才提過我們有六次的調查那兩次的新燒這個會議所以在五月底這個調查結束的時候那我們就把這個做成之後再送給考機委員會所以在醫院的部分當我們知道有這個調查我們其實上就有希望這個貴部 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4870.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4881.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
去執行讓他跟住院醫師做分開那他們執行的情形怎麼樣這我們有在follow就是所以在台大醫院的部分他本職雖然不在台大醫院我們是非常積極的那有剛才提到我們的委員以外我們有調查委員我們還有律師可是你剛剛講2月1號開始啟動調查你就接貨可是你4月15號你的婦產科楊主任才被通知要約談 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4897.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4898.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那事實上也超過了兩個月已經兩個半月的時間而且五月才做出調查的一個結果確認新燒的成立這有沒有延遲呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4909.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4930.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
好這個因為調查在這個部分是非常複雜無法在這因為我們要保護受害者他們都不願意出來所以這個整個在調查過程可是你剛剛講2月1號你們已經接貨了那如果立即啟動調查兩個月內要完成的話你4月15號用大家都看報紙的嘛4月15號你的楊主任才 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4931.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4954.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
通知被約談對因為這個之前我們都提早約談的話其實這些可能有潛在的不只這些可能會有一些更多的擔心但是我們立即提供這個雖然我們不清楚說一定是誰我們不能公開但是我們有提供的一些情緒的支持等等然後也我不是要聽後邊的啦好 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4958.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4981.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
其實這個法律假如是雇主主動之息他並沒有2加1的這個規定這個是法律上面的不周全但是我們為什麼會到4月才約談你可以想像假如一開始就約談楊主任這個沒辦法保護受害者我們一定是先調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4982.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5004.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
對 你們調查時間也延拓了蠻長的好 先問台大醫院的那個事件的發生 事件發生地協議人西教授是屬於台灣大學可是同時在台大醫院任職那由事件發生地的雇主發起的調查應該是正當可是台灣大學不是在第一時間應該是要被 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5006.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5024.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
要求配合調查嗎 因為他還是有教職 他如果在教職裡邊有些也有同樣的作為的話 那是不是這個嫌疑人也還是在學校裡邊因為那更是全是性騷的問題 因為他在學校還有任職 所以想問我們的教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5032.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5061.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
過程當中我們看到的那個受害人都是屬於這個住院醫師所以當下並沒有察覺這個行為人跟被行為人是有失聲這樣的關係所以我們當時在二月的時候有同時啟動嗎還是等到台大醫院通知台大校方才開始去處理是調查結束之後是這有沒有應該第一時間應該台大校方應該要知道因為是他事實上是教職兼醫職可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5062.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5081.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
今天台大醫學院畢竟是台大醫院的等於是上邊的主管機關為什麼會不知道所以一樣的就是說那12月19號媒體訪問台大校長陳文章表示說信評會跟教評會獨立運作都做調查發生地的僱主跟聘僱的僱主同時發起調查這種狀況請問一下以誰為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5085.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5090.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
以這個行為人跟被行為人的關係為主因為性侵法如果兩邊調查的結果不一致怎麼辦呢沒有為什麼說不是聯合一起啟動反而事實上是去分別 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5098.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5107.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
就剛才講因為一開始的時候並沒有察覺行為人跟被行為人是有失對生的關係沒有他是在同一個職場場域裡頭的這個上下這個長官所以本席認為發生這樣的狀況政府應該介入協調為單一調查的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5115.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5128.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
本案應該由誰來協調台大醫院跟台灣大學跟委員報告就是這個案子從一開始確實是由這個台大醫院的委員會來做我說那台大校方知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5130.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5144.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
應該不知道 他是等到五月才知道所以對於本案 自始至終雙方的身份大家都應該保密可是這一點認為台大醫院有做到可是若嫌疑任希教授在調查結果出來便獲准請辭 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5146.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5166.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那接下來的程序勢必沒辦法進行所以如果遇到當事人如果不配合的話這如果是離職的時候你怎麼去因應各位報告因為他已經調查完成而且是成立的後面依照教師法就去討論他解聘以及管制聘用的這個部分程序並不會因為他辭職而停止一定會把他全部都走完 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5169.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5193.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
在調查程序當中嫌疑的C教授持續騷擾被害人還有對性評委員嗆聲那我就很好奇剛剛講說性評的委員的資訊都是不可揭露的那為什麼他會知道性評委員是誰還去嗆聲有符合被害人的保護規定嗎雇主應該要怎麼處置來避免我們的騷擾跟報復所以各位請我們的勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5200.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5210.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
就是回你的問題就是說像因為你們還是勞動的主管機關怎麼去避免這種那個跟騷和報復的對保護人保護是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5215.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5234.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
報告委員,這個部分的話,僱主要採取的有效措施,包括要立即要做一些隔離的這個動作那剛剛也有提到的是說,像這個被害人的部分的話那他有提出這個申訴的部分的話,那要做馬上的一些立即的一些處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5238.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5257.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
對本案處理上 我覺得蠻多荒謬 後續要怎麼改善 請衛福部跟教育部兩周內提出報告 另外在法官底下案件拖了一整年 到現在都還沒有結果出來那嫌疑人也跑了 被害人最後還是透過訴訟來要回他的權利空轉了一年 所以請 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5258.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5284.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
把報告就是他們在做司法救濟的時候事實上是我覺得政府部門還是有責任那再來問衛福部也就是兒夢自凱凱案發生之後9月3號就已經移到你們衛福部來做管轄可是12月又有週刊爆發說有性騷案件受害人上報主管主管竟然告訴他是嫌疑人貼心想追你那兒夢後續有六大重點針對他內部的處理機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5287.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5315.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
想問我們的洪部長在性供法的架構下性騷擾行為是僱主的時候才向勞工檢舉這個案子的被害人卻是事後遭到不當安排而提出檢舉雖然檢舉內容不得而知可是可以理解的是性騷加上不當調職的所生的勞資爭議你處置這樣合理嗎結果事實上是受害人反而被調離職務被懲罰那勞動部可以做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5318.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5344.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
如果這個被害人認為說這個僱主其實沒有好好處理那那個調查結果不符勞工就可以直接向勞工局來提出申訴那外面的這個勞工局來做進一步的處理他查兩個部分如果他是對於這個性騷擾的認定有問題的話那他會直接來認定性騷擾的部分那第二個的話如果是僱主的責任違反的話他就會去調查僱主責任違反的部分來做處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5346.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5359.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
威福部也想問你現在已經改立在你們單位了那請問一下你們有沒有更積極的作為它事實上是一個兒童保護團體可是一再的出事顯示專業度不夠那威福部怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5362.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5384.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
職場 他算是一個職場性騷 也是一個權勢性騷那如果說他是在我們部裡頭是相關的這個財團法人那也有這個職場主人 就場所主人的責任那我們會來要求地方政府對這個額蒙場所主人這個角色 他在做性騷防治的工作上面加強做督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5386.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5403.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以希望你們可以幫我們把關尤其這次又發生這種狀況再來就是想問我們的勞動部有沒有去了解這個性侵案件申訴後的會議是主管會議還是調查委員會主管會議可以公開討論案情並作結論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5408.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5430.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個案子我們已經請台北市去做瞭解和處理那台北市已經查證過認為那個麥當勞的這個案子他並公司並沒有做後續的一些協助的這些方案那認定他是沒有做到立即有效補救措施對那一個這樣子的一個工作會主管會就可以提做出結論嗎沒有做任何的一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5432.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5456.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這個部分的話他必須在程序上面要經過他們要成立調查單位那要成立調查小組在這個屬於比較大型的事業單位在100人以上他另外還是要請用外部的這個調查專家來做協助調查那這個部分會請台北市政府一併再來做一些檢視他前端的這個部分是不是有做到相關的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5457.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5468.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
好 謝謝本案被害人嫌疑人都是未成年的兒少 要加強保護對象衛福部核實知情 想問部長你們做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5469.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5495.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
這一案到113年的3月3號他離職後他到台北市政府的婦幼隊來舉報他遭性侵所以3月3號北市婦幼隊接獲報案之後就進行通報所以我們加防中心是在3月3號之後接案開始做被害人的輔助這個部分是在113年的3月3號而當時他已經年滿18 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5499.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5522.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
特別要跟委員說明好那教育部是不是應該要配合把性侵害被害人保護機制向高中以下的學生去做宣導然後那你們做了什麼請兩週內交報告最後就希望勞動部有勞動部要做的事情希望能夠督促雇主及時開啟調查然後限期提出結果跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5523.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5543.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
做出正確的處置那衛福部呢以保護的為要務那不能盡興學校僱主的能力隨時我們要提起我們的訴訟那教育部對於性學校園內的性犯罪的防治教育明顯不足要修正被害人的自救途徑以上謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝兩位部長那接續我們請陳清威委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5555.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5561.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
謝謝主席 謝謝官員還有委員們 首先我想請台大醫院院長還有台大大學的主秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5567.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5587.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
剛剛從許多委員的質詢中都已經聽出來了這次的所有這些性騷擾相關案件是黃腔折粄我剛剛其實是非常難過因為我看到院長面對前兩位委員其實中間還有笑這樣子的樣子我這邊有非常多女醫師陳情的管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5588.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5601.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
很多人現在已經在看身心科中度憂鬱症了看到你在鏡頭前面笑情何以堪啊難道女醫師在你心中不是醫師嗎不是你台大醫院的員工嗎你可以為女醫師主持公道嗎我請問你院長我請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5614.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5627.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我覺得這是兩碼子事兩碼子事請不要用這樣子來做一個人身攻擊我自己笑是不是說我是對因為委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5630.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5657.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我絕對沒有人身攻擊我的意思是說這件事一是體大我很希望院長您可以嚴肅的面對我請問您院長這幾年來我現在在網路上看到您知道台大醫院有一個綽號叫寶山醫院吧您知道嗎最近又多了一個綽號叫杏燒醫院您知道貴院有一位王姓的骨科主任因為杏燒研究助理而告上法院這件事您知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5658.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5673.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
而且這件事情我且知道而且我們也因為王姓主任因為這樣他的主任就去職了所以他還在上班他主任就被... 郎一郎一還在歸原上班所以網路上說台大醫院就是性騷醫院沒有錯啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5674.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5685.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
沒有 我剛才已經講過我們可以做我們醫院在法律上給我們的一個權責我要開除他 院長也沒有這個權責開除他我們要開除一個醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5689.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5715.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
是有一定的一個定額程度剛剛教育部剛剛教育部已經來了教育部其實有頒布一個規定您剛講得非常的清楚有許多的地方的學校教育部是說這個教師假使有涉及性騷等等是終身不得聘用沒錯吧教育部是這樣建議大家的沒錯吧王信主任有沒有教職有沒有他有教職 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5717.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5732.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
所以我們今天為什麼要把衛福部教育部勞動部全部都找出來等一下我們一一來問好除了王姓主任是不是還有一位正姓的婦科主任也被涉嫌下藥性侵是不是有有嗎有嗎您知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5737.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5765.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這件事情我們很早就處理在法律還沒有因為他現在還在走法律的程序法律還沒有解決的時候院方已經解決所以這位醫師早就已經離職了所以這位醫師最近是不是又申請要復聘嗎他是不是申請要復聘跟那個剛才那個C姓因為是同一科所以這兩件事情可能大家把它搞在一起沒有搞在一起我是從前面開始問 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5767.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5775.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
他沒有 他沒有 這位醫師已經不在台大醫院也沒有在 我相信校方也知道那校方最近他有沒有申請復聘 他有沒有應該是沒有這回事 請跟委員報告好 那我想知道說校方跟院方剛剛從副院長的口中聽起來你們是2月收到簡訊知道這件事的 正確嗎2月 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5793.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5814.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
校方沒有收到是院方院方所以我剛才講的我在這裡再重申一次我們整個的流程非常清楚而且我也有給啊貴院因為只要有來醫院公文來我都有把整個調查的過程就是有關於吸性是在2月我們知道而且是我們的啊高主任委員他 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5815.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5841.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
主動跟我報告我們馬上就成立工作小組那成立工作小組我們還是我們要依法行政我們還是要有一個行政的流程而且我們當初希望這個可以正式的申訴但是受害者都不願意所以我們說我們用雇主之息也被查二魚也覺得這件事蠻嚴重的所以雇主之息您開始啟動調查但是您沒有覺得嚴重到要通知校防沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5841.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5859.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
你還沒有調查完以後我們是調查整個已經成立而且我們在6月就開考記委會就記大過一次那時候我們就把整個也通知校方那另外我們也通知那個台北市因為根據那個新商房黃志華假如沒有生 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5860.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5865.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
是直轄市的主管機關所以我們都有按照法律所以院長的意思是說有深喉嚨去跟媒體爆料其實12月就投訴給院方這件事應該是錯的沒有12月沒有投訴我們那個高主任這件事是錯的我只是幫你澄清謝謝幫你澄清因為12月才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5880.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5884.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好你2月才知道ok2月搞到現在已經2025年1月了請問台大校方你們的新評會教評會到底還要拖多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5891.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5910.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
是跟委員報告一下就是說的確是六月台大收到台大醫院過來的報告之後我們事實上就已經開過在七月我們就開過教評會那把這個後面的程序就確認因為還有台大的校方也有性評會那怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5911.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5917.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
在這個報告啊做一些確認跟釐清所以這個報告的確認跟釐清你覺得問題在哪裡所以你現在是在說院方給您的這個報告需要再確認跟釐清報告委員這個是就是程序的問題因為那個報告是台大的性評做的那到了學校學校因為要牽扯到後數後續成熟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5933.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5948.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
懲處的問題那在懲處的時候在我們的校教評會就需要有一個性評會這邊所以我們只是請這個台大這邊的性評會做一個報告的確認如果有一些要釐清的地方就進行釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5949.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5952.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那你這個釐清還要多久你只要告訴大家釐清還要多久整個程序大概都已經都走完了那我們會在下一次的教評會下一次教評會是什麼時候應該就是在這個月應該是這個月應該就會所以你們就會宣布給全國的因為這樣講我們會做完 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5971.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5979.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
因為懲處就跟我們之前陳校長說的這個是校教評會的職權他懲處完就是做成報告之後會議紀錄也確認之後我們還會報教育部做確認以後我們可以請教育部先回座沒關係我們請那個勞動部剛剛那位司長剛剛勞動部的司長講得非常好我們應該要積極的保護受害人來那個台大醫院院長台大醫院院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5999.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6025.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這邊也是深喉嚨講的12月17號在早上的10點到下午的3點之間還目擊C教授出現在台大醫院兒醫大樓婦產科樓層完全無視台大醫院為保護受害人的公文要求婦產科對C教授的行動範圍進行管制我想知道吳院長是否有發這個公文希望對他的行動範圍進行管制 您有發嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6027.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6057.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
好 謝謝陳委員那一天是來看牙齒然後看完以後他就確實有去然後我們知道以後我們就請院方有請警衛去而且我們也下了一個公文就是今後只要看到他進入婦產部我們警衛就會把他那天他去婦產部幹嘛他不是已經離職了所以我們接到這個訊息以後我們就馬上院方就請那你之後會如何保護這些受害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6057.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6076.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們我相信他應該不能進入婦產部因為我們已經把他的那個卡都收回來因為我們婦產部跟兒科部他要進入那個都是要有刷卡所以他已經沒有卡那一天他怎麼進去的我們還在調查說到底是誰幫他開 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6077.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6088.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
所以你大概兩週內可以給我們這個報告嗎他是怎麼接觸到這些受害人的還有他怎麼進去的以及他有沒有遇到前列的這些受害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6090.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6114.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
這個好像是沒有因為那一天包括我們高副院長還有另外一位所以你們當天其實是有收到有人檢舉他又出現了那還有其他天嗎其他天就沒有了這一天以外因為那一天以後我們就加強那個管控本來兒醫大樓的那個特別是病房區都有刷卡才能進去除非你按 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6115.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6125.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
裡面的人開門你才能進去假如沒有卡那我知道的西信主席醫師他的卡很早我們就收回因為他已經離職了 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6126.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6147.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
好那我們就兩個禮拜靜候您的報告還有您未來要如何加強保護您身為醫師其實你知道女醫師要就是師徒制手把手的有時候交看診交開刀寫論文一起出國開會你看有多少全市的機會有辦法進行這些惡行這些您都可以理解吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6148.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6171.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
其實我可以我可以理解而且我們也很重視那我這順便謝謝陳委員給我這個機會去做澄清那我也在做剛才你說我在笑其實是沒有這是我們我們先不要說我們今天就好好的來討論這件事情我先跟你講剛剛你說你是因為雇主實習知道依照性別平等法第13條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6173.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6186.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
但是沒有申訴人的話其實這個整個調查或是報告會在一個秘密的過程而且其實是不需要懲處的我想知道當你沒有申訴人的時候為什麼你要去懲戒呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6187.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6211.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
為什麼因為這個案子非常重大其實在我們110年開始我們院方都有處理過很多性騷的案子在我的資料裡面110年我們接受到七件七件都成立而且都有做懲處其實每年都有那這件事情比較特別因為我覺得這一個醫師他的權勢這麼高而且備份這麼高 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6213.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6238.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
發生這麼事情雖然沒有申訴人但是我們一定要主動所以那時候我就跟高副院長講說這個一定要勿往勿中因為這個影響會很大所以其實你的意思是說雇主之息但其實是因為透過簡訊之息但這個人不想申訴啦不想申訴其實是不想申訴並不是沒有申訴人嘛對不對所以你就知道這個影響有多大他還在那邊工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6238.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6267.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
不敢申訴所以這不是勞動部教育部應該要積極的協助這些弱勢的比較還沒有通過執照的女醫師我們今天就是希望好好來討論這件事嘛但院長好這樣看起來不管是你申訴或是耳聞我希望你把它變成一個正式的台大醫院或者是我們可以讓每一個醫院來看我們如何去保護這些學生階級的醫師好嗎不要再被人家寫性騷醫院了 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6268.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6271.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
真的很丟臉再來我們要請那個台大校方為什麼我們要這麼擔心黑箱審查因為你們是不是去年7月才被監察院糾正你們的教評會跟性評會才被監察院糾正 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6285.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6305.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
的確是監察院是有來喊是對啊我們不能從性騷醫院又變成性騷大學監察院裡面講得非常的明確他說你們台大跟其他學校比起來啊其他學校淡江中正輔仁抓到有教師有性騷擾就是終身解聘結果你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6306.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6322.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
姓平慧叫平慧面對一位公衛學院副教授性騷案的時候指出這位教師所受到的處罰跟其他學校類似案件是完全無法比擬在會議紀錄上更刻意隱瞞該名建議輕罰的委員也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6324.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6348.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
你們已經比別人判得少了 你們說要停職三年然後你們在這個姓評會還有校評會裡面居然有匿名的委員跟大家和諧 跟大家說好啦我們一起把他把三年改成一年最後你們被監察院糾正你們這批人七月被監察院糾正然後現在又要去開這個C教授的校評會跟姓評會你覺得合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6351.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6364.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
報告委員我們的教評會委員事實上是每一年都會不一樣的那他們是獨立的運作那的確是整個程序當中就是性評會教評會他們都有開會那這個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6369.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6396.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
對 你就簡單的回答我你們被糾正以後有想要檢討性評會跟教評會嗎還是你們覺得不會我們做得很棒棒很好這個跟委員報告一下台大我也利用這個機會跟大家重申這個不管是台大或剛剛院長也講了台大醫院我們都會很重視性評而且我們是就是對性評是零容忍所以發生任何的事情我們都一定會依法 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6397.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6421.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
積極的處理那法律上該做的我們都會那我稍微問一下像我們像立法院的範圍委員他其實也在台大教授婦女性別相關的課程你們台大零零種種這些性別相關學程啦三四十個少說三四十個是不是你們的性評會成員都沒有一個是來自這個性別或是婦女相關的沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6422.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6442.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
是 報告委員這個部分我們有討論過因為本來我們的性平委員就各個院來推薦那校長這邊是有一個有幾個名額是可以邀請相關的專家那我們今年開始會把我們性別這邊的教授至少會有一個人會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6443.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6459.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
這個性評會裡面至少一個人所以表示你們以前沒有上一屆的性評是沒有這個做性別平等研究的老師那但是各個學院可能派來的人他本身就是性評的專家這是有的譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6460.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6466.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
沒有 我查了他們都沒有在學程裡面授課性別相關所以你是如何認證他具有參加性評會的資格那個就我剛剛講各個學院他們會推薦他們覺得就是說比較合適當性評的委員那這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6475.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6490.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
如果他是專業的不管是他有教這個課或他相關的研究我跟你們說你才剛被糾正所以這件事情全國的人都在看尤其是女醫師女學生研究醫師 助業醫師全國人都在看我分享一個哲學家 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6491.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6516.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
和納厄蘭說的平庸的邪惡 他在講說當一群人不制止惡行 反而當作是正常的原本就是這樣做 長期都是這樣做來縱容甚至參與其中就是在助長邪惡所以我希望你最後的姓評會 校評會的報告可以還給這些受害人一個公道 好嗎是 我們一定會好好的調查跟做清楚謝謝三位 跟冷魂精對不起 那個邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6525.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6544.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
邱部長這個是您前幾天12月30號回應許多民團啊因為您知道我們在日皇委員會也有講不管是針對這些幼教的郎師啊或是保姆等等我們都會設置一個平台讓大家安心你說針對郎醫你要可以研擬可以研擬是你要做還是你不要做還是你會研擬會不會研擬因為你只有說可以研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6548.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6574.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
好 我想我們要整整 剛剛今天整個過 討論整個早上討論 相關的一個一個機制 不管是從學校 職場 醫院已經討論很多 那基本上衛福部當然是一直關注的做我們應該要做的事情那有關於要建立 郎醫院有這樣的一個建議我們認為有建立一個平台來公布這樣的資訊其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6577.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6605.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
看起來是值得研議的所以要研議好那我會再追您的研議的進度好的好再來這個我不知道您有沒有聽聞您最近要開始推30歲免費健檢這個是個德政我覺得非常的好利益良善可是您知道衛福部有發了一份文件叫做醫事服務機構辦理預防保健服務注意事項您知道這件事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6607.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6635.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這個我大概知道你知道炸鍋了嘛對不對好我們就簡單的跟大家講一下現在雖然你宣傳成人健檢下降到30歲但是你發了另外一份文件跟第一線的醫護人員說如果這些人原本就有三高有定期檢查有定期治療或者是有被糖尿病P4P計畫收案提供的衛福部將不會核付這筆費用那你應該看得出問題在哪裡吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6636.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6661.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
然後謝謝陳委員給我這個機會再度跟全國的醫療院所說明經過國民健康署的一個澄清明年度絕對不會去做這個部分的勾結為什麼因為我們要站在人民的立場而不是站在會計或者是我們公務的立場那因為在公務上面我想委員可能也我過去幾十年也接過很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6662.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6685.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
衛福部的各個局屬的計畫管制的非常嚴格而且不能有重複所以我們這個可能是可能是事務單位很擔心你前面這麼嚴重現在這麼嚴重是不是重複但是我覺得站在醫師的立場還有病人的立場我現在先講醫師醫師不會這麼說醫師一定知道說他有說我利用自己抽兩瓶 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6692.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6708.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
對不對 不可能嘛 哪一個醫師會做這種事嗎一定是這裡可以做UOT 這裡可以做我一定是顯或者是兩個中間起來站在病人最佳的一個利益來做一個專業的處理一般都是這樣子所以這個部分跟我們行政部門的一個互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6709.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6725.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
在這個部分是有個需要GAP部長我跟你講一件事有三個面向要分析第一個你跟全國的人說可以做健檢這個很棒但是第二個你沒有跟全國的人說但是你有三高不能喔這個你沒說喔所以你的正義宣導就有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6727.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6753.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
那當然這些人也會覺得說我已經繳健保費了我本來就應該要做這個你提供的30歲健檢而且部長您太久沒有在第一線了光是把兩張醫師卡跟健保卡插好並且連到VPN再去找他有沒有糖尿病我告訴你我帶著你操作一遍你就知道要花多久不可能整個早上都在做這件事情所以這件事我們一定要從IT端去克服你才可以執行這樣子好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6754.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6774.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
報告委員我是去年的520上任以後才沒有接觸第一線過去40年每一個禮拜都看見當立委的時候因為我有義務我是借調的我有義務回去做指導門診這個事情我非常感謝你了解這基層的聲音真的要處理而且是國健是 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6779.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6796.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
國健署已經馬上在處理請全國醫療院所安心我們一定會把他處理到北南需要什麼檢查我們盡量都做完整的一個健康檢查來落實健康台灣真的一個目標好那我們也會再繼續追您在這個IP端的進度謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6802.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6817.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
看一個診看完從開始來插雙卡三卡到看結束要跳二十幾個畫面要跳二十幾個畫面真的是蠻麻煩的好我們接續請邱正清委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6825.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6829.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
好謝謝主席我以為我要再等一下我以為換你質詢了好我們請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6840.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6860.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
我看今天召委排案特別要求教育部跟台大醫師跟台大來你們就應該知道我們今天要問什麼剛剛也好幾位委員也在問這件事情所以關於台大西教授的這個性騷事件您之前的回答我還聽不太懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6861.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6886.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那過了兩週那我們衛福部跟教育部應該已經掌握了吧應該有部長你掌握了多少我想這個部分今天早上已經談了我們從工作場他的工作領域開始調查那台大醫院整個過程我們從剛剛院長跟台大校方的報告是一直持續在做那那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6888.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6906.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們就是有性平三法我們會按照這三法來照顧我們做我們應該做的事情這個是去年那個我們113年3月4號賴清德總統公布的這個健康促進委員會的名單這個西教授有沒有在裡面我看一下名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6913.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6935.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
至少真正開會的時候是沒有的真正開會的時候沒有?你確定沒有嗎?確定沒有,因為我都有參與我知道他被踢炮性騷之後,去年8月15號已經被委員會除名了那9月台大校方還沒有懲處前就申請離職這一系列的操作你不覺得很剛好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6940.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6967.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
據剛剛台大醫院跟台灣大學的部分都有按照程序在進行那他從九月台大離職這個醫師當然有他他現在離職了嘛對不對他九月離職之後又十一月就跑到總統府執政開的台中茂盛醫院板橋院去擔任這個生殖醫學的總監是吧報告委員目前衛福部查此人並沒有沒有指燈 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6968.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6990.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
所以表示他現在沒有在執行完全沒有嗎沒有那你覺得他是他未來還有機會當醫生嗎還有資格當嗎那就要送到由地方衛生局送懲戒委員會然後懲戒委員會的建議會如果比較重大會送到我們衛護部來做判決所以這個要經過醫生懲戒委員會來處理嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6993.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7011.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
是在地方還是怎麼樣先送到當地的衛生局根據醫師法第25條規定要判刑確定才有依據召開懲戒委員會的會議那如果委員會決議要廢止醫師證書誰可以決定要不要廢止是我們衛福部嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7013.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7026.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
像這個比較重大這個比較重大必須要送到衛福部所以他們決定說應該要廢除的時候才送到這邊來那您這邊來決定他還要不要還是您會尊重地方開的這個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7027.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7039.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我們尊重這個沈議員沈議員可以說都是德高望重那老實講那個委員也是都是長久以來也不是我們能去隨便跟他修改的啦所以我想他們一定會根據過去的經驗法律他們從他們的倫理 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7045.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7070.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
一些倫理後面來做一個很周全的判定因為我們擔心的是什麼就是現在學校懲處的結果還沒有結果也要等判刑確定那這邊一定會有一個空窗期這個我們能確保這個西教授沒有萬一他在別的地方職業怎麼辦我們怎麼保障假如他職業的話我們怎麼保障患者跟其他醫護不被騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7073.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7099.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我們也做追蹤還是怎麼樣?我想我們衛福部的立場是宣導一個性瓶性燒怎麼防治我要講這個我知道部長我知道那至於說那個我們如果他到哪個地方去職場我們會都請當地的衛生局 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7103.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7119.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那去加強那個督導那我稍微分清楚一下因為他是他不是跟業務上去併人啦他是那個對啦我說有這樣的有發生這種案件我希望衛福部主動要追蹤啦好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7120.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7141.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
當然當然另外我剛才講到這些就是說我發現我們舉個幾個例子來給你看就剛剛我們陳金輝委員有提到我們台大骨科我們的王姓主任110年這個也依照這個強制猥褻罪判刑8個月那部長您知道他現在在哪裡嗎我不清楚他現在在哪裡他還在台大骨科是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7150.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7178.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
那個台大骨科對啊我就覺得這個很奇怪啊然後112年台大醫院鄭姓傅海全威教授那疑似下藥迷昏藥廠的女性業務員那當然啦後來這個我們的性騷擾防治委員會說性騷擾不成立不過這件事情在去年113年檢方4月又開始介入調查了部長知道這事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7182.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7203.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
我知道有這件事情,然後呢?你說事業就又開始...對啊,它又介入調查了嘛,所以你們有針對這樣的事情去追蹤嗎?可能有新市政又檢方嘛,要檢方進入調查嘛對啊那我相信台大醫院應該都會密切注意到整個過程嘛還有我們新的... |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7232.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7234.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
所以他還在台大骨科嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7248.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7264.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
還有我再講新竹也有我們基性小兒科心臟科醫師也替女童檢查心臟的時候涉嫌在兒童超音波室手持超音波探頭用手指抓取觸碰他的乳房 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7265.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7281.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那被判刑七個月那現在還沒有看診我想講這些案子給你們大概參考一下還有一個就是精神科名醫我們恐反警涉嫌在我們診所內性侵女病患這件事情那當然他也被判了四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7282.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7312.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
我講的這些案子我剛剛還是回到我們陳金輝委員剛剛也有建議到說我們部長自己有提到說是不是要建置一個網路平台公布這些有這些塑形不良的醫生的一個訊息讓我們的患者還有我們的醫護人員能多一分警覺那這個東西當然也會讓所有的醫生有所顧忌因為這個東西一旦登上去之後對他本身來講也是影響非常大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7313.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7328.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我覺得這個是一個手段不是我們的目的我們也是希望有透過這樣的手段讓我們這些醫師就是能夠自己去克制自己去約束自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7330.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7353.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
是我們在上一屆大家努力之下通過憲憑三法那當然就是希望營造一個大家很互相尊重不會有像發生這種事情不好的事情的一個環境部長可以承諾嗎?這個部分,您會做這件事嗎?我們一定會研議研議嘛,那這個要多久? |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7356.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7373.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
這個因為牽涉到整個體系的問題啦不是說我們衛福部還要公佈就公佈我知道啦那當然我希望快一點啦好不好好我們會把演繹的過程跟委員報告三個月可以嗎?沒問題我們演繹的狀況會跟三個月內跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7377.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7403.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
另外我們就台大西教授這個性騷的聲音我想在前年112年初就已經傳出來那一直到專科醫生考試完112年11月才敢檢舉而且我們西教授他是慣犯光這次報出來對象至少有6個那台大醫院你們是在11月接到檢舉嗎我們請院長來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7413.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7436.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
這件事情台大醫院並沒有接到檢舉沒有檢舉 你們是固主席之的對 這是固主席之的而且剛才我們這個性平委員會的主任委員高副院長他其實是一收到馬上跟我報告因為有人用那個NINE傳給他這個時間點可能要再釐清一下 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7438.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7459.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個受害者本人是用醫院的這個TestMessage寫給我那我也跟他談話這個部分我剛剛也聽到了那我想問的就是說因為我們醫師的訓練是師徒那你要徒弟出來控這個控訴自己的師父這說真的一般人都是非常有壓力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7460.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7475.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那我們有給這些醫生啊就是說受到侵害的這些醫生有沒有什麼保障還是我們已經很習慣在這裡面我們白色巨塔裡面常常會有這種事情發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7476.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7491.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 那我們的志願是有一個友善完全沒有性騷霸凌專業的學習訓練這絕對是我們一定要做的所以當然我受到這樣第一個我就是以老師的身分我非常的感到難過沒有保護他們這邊有個資料就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7494.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7515.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我們在2018年就有調查過有80%的女醫師63%的男醫師都曾經遭受過職場的性騷但是只有3.5%的人曾經使用申訴管道那我覺得我們的這個申訴管道是不是不被信任還是有做檢討的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7515.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7533.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
好這個申訴管道我們在人事室那我們也在醫院持續的宣傳然後在教學部呢在每個階段不管他們在實習PGY住院醫師都有持續的宣傳重點是現在要使用這個人他會不會覺得他有壓力你們是不是能夠保密 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7535.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7560.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
臺大在保密這部分是覺得可以放心所以像這次事件他們願意接受訪談可是他不願申訴他就有這些擔心雖然我們有給他很多的安全的這個保證但是我們還是用固執的方式那我再重點就是說這些受害者他們並不希望被人家知道所以我們不管媒體或各方面去描述這些其實都是對他們二次傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7562.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7590.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我在講我們西教授性騷的案件5月底的調查結果就出來是性騷那你們醫院的調查報告去識別化後公布有問題嗎這個報告沒有辦法公布為什麼這個本來就是有隱私再怎麼樣去識別化還是會對號入座而且這也是對受害者的一個傷害受害者是受害是被害人受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7591.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7596.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
受害那其實我剛才要再補充一下 其實5月2號我們會議這個結束之後 實際上就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7601.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7629.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
要將加害跟受害者要怎麼執行保護這個當天在報告還沒有全部出來就已經有跟他的直屬現任的主任談所以這個我們的主任是楊主任嘛對吧對就是很早我們就做這些處理我看他發的聲明他說僅私下詢問是否有上有其他的人證或物證可以證明那絕無向被害人表示孤男寡女共處一室要怎麼證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7630.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7643.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以我在講這兩句話的意思有哪裡不一樣嗎這個我們不予評論因為那是他個人的聲明並不是由醫院做任何的聲明醫院不負責任就對了這個是他個人的聲明不經過我們醫院所以他們隨便講都可以因為針對這種事情無法回答你無法回答那你想來幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7660.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7660.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
你上來幹嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7664.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7690.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
楊主任的那個個人的聲明是在我們見到媒體以後我們院方特別我也有把楊主任講來就為一個行政主管你是不及格的這個是不及格因為我們千方百計用盡各種方法就是要保護受害人我們整個調查的過程我們最第一要務就是保護受害人不要受到二次傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7691.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7703.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
因為那個加害者那時候還沒有離開那我再問我們這個西教授現在已經離開他也記兩大過那我想請問一下這兩大過對他有什麼影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7705.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7729.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
在其實對醫院來講沒有問題他已經離職而且沒有但是因為他有一個教師的身份他可能假如是被學校解聘跟自動離職辭職這個對他的退休金是會有所影響但是這部分就不是醫院可以跟醫院他就是已經切掉了醫院他已經沒有任何的工作甚至他的工作證跟什麼卡我們都收回了 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7730.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7755.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好啦那我在最後補充我們結論就是我們我發現這個事情也不是單一案件也是發生好幾次的我覺得我們第一線的主管應該要更有作為一點那這整個的這個流程這整個的配套大家需要檢討一下大家改進好不好謝謝那再來我再請問我先補充一下其實高副院長是台灣理醫師協會的理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7758.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7774.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以他保護女醫師應該是非常的用心的只是說他還是要按依法行事好謝謝那個部長這個前兩天我接到我們罹患帕金森市政的病友陳情 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7776.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7797.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那他們一直以來無法比照重大傷病享有各項健保的醫療補助那部長我想請問有關帕金森市政的相關社會資源以及相關的福利補助部落都落在這個帕金森市政的中後期也就是說在離病之後的10年左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7798.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7803.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
但他們在前期就無法工作面臨龐大的這個醫療這個相關的醫療的支出你覺得這個東西有沒有減腦的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7809.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7828.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
任何一個疾病,病人需要照顧而我們沒有給他適當的照顧,或者是他們滿意的照顧當然都是我們要去努力的方向跟目標我們帕金森症相關的社會資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7830.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7834.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我認為社會安全網、社會體系及健保補助不應該忽略他們邱部長可以承諾協助他們來解決這樣的一個問題就是納入考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7851.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7878.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
我想如果在健保方面不曉得有沒有給這個部分怎麼樣的那如果不夠的話我們再用社會福利來一起來努力那個副署長帕金森市政我們會邀請專業的學協會那特別包含的像神經醫學會還有這個失智症協會還有精神醫學會我們邀請他們來擬定這樣子的提案好謝謝邱部長那我看洪部長坐很久應該很無聊我最後一句問你一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7879.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7907.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
你這個彈性工時的設計再加工作或同樣的案子就是職業重建等等我們勞動部的勞發署是不是也可以協助一起來解決這個問題說職業重建的哪個部分就是我們剛剛講帕金森市政的患者就是因為他早在前期他就很多人可能會因為這樣都沒有工作那這部分我們勞動部這個勞發署是不是可以協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7908.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7933.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這個部分因為重建比較是指的是植栽施能的部分對跟委員報告我們目前對於如果他在工作上有需要植物再設計的部分我們是可以提供相關的協助那我們會到時候我們希望你們兩個部會大家再再聯繫一下嘛好不好好謝謝謝謝就委員謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7939.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7945.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們臨時提案處理完畢後再休息10分鐘那接續我們請王一鳴委員質詢好謝謝主席那個部長輪流一下我們先請勞動部紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7967.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7968.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7969.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7981.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
部長我先請問你那個救安基金的審計部的報告你自己有沒有看過有是不是我要先跟你討論這個救安基金的問題審計部已經證實了這個5174萬救安基金的編列是使用不當的而這當中我們可以看到光是媒體宣導的費用就高達3784萬佔整體的七成三 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7998.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8013.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
也就是勞動部把你們的沒宣費用除了你公務預算有編列一部分之外多數你通通都用救安基金來使用而這個審計部直指你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8014.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8026.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
是使用不當這當中我上次質詢的時候我就問許民村的演唱會他的經費從哪裡來是從你們媒體的這個預算裡面來的然後你們當時還告訴我說這個是開口合約沒有問題審計部的報告就告訴你你們名目都不符很有問題違法使用部長這個部分你們要怎麼去改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8044.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8058.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
跟網友報告其實這裡面審計部報告我們都讀過了那這裡面有分幾個部分的層次你有沒有覺得你們開口合約有問題你們的預算編列不夠精確先跟網友報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8059.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8076.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
審議部裡面確實有提到開口合約的問題那這部分關於履約的管理那也包括其實有一些後續的集合的部分目前我們已經請同仁來進行相關的檢討那我們也不排除未來當然要調整做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8077.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8089.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我就告訴大家這個勞動部花錢完全如流水不手軟他們製作一部影片勞動節主題影片你知道這三年來他們花了2800萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8092.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8111.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
平均一支影片的造價的金額是一千萬到八百萬之間平均是九百萬那個衛福部邱太仁部長我麻煩你上來一下我要問一下衛福部請問你們在媒體宣導的預算裡面你們做一支影片花多少錢衛福部的預算編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8117.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8134.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
你們下面的司長趕快去救駕你們自己都有編列預算保護司你們平均做一支影片要花多少錢人家勞動部是一千萬到八百萬的規格請問你勞動部做多少錢看第一個秒數第二個用什麼方式你曾經最貴的多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8136.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8156.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
90萬左右也是有的啦都不到100萬對不對我自己知道的情況大概也是這樣子是這種規格好兩位請回去紅部長我就是要讓你看到勞動部有這樣的一個就業基金的小金庫你們的媒體預算遠高於其他部會一支影片竟然耗資1000萬到800萬是怎麼做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8161.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8171.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
你這段我沒有去查你上任之後你是不是要這樣的情況那你明年是不是繼續這樣子編跟網友說明我們其實在檢討我剛才說審計部的報告裡面其實裡面提到好幾個層次的指證 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8175.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8200.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
這個要不要檢討 你回答就好當然 這當然要檢討所以明年不會出現這種八百萬等級的影片勞動部不會出現了我覺得還是要看它這個採購的規格是否合宜我們現在在講這個問題是關於採購的規格的合宜度的狀況那我們確實有看到 過去的部會裡面不是要拍電影 你也不是文化部一個勞動部拍片要耗資一千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8201.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8225.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
是拍什麼啊?拍小電影啊?所以那個跟萬元說明我們其實也有在檢討說有一些可能他可能是需要有需要的工作但凱德的規格是不是有合一另外一個好我時間有限部長我們進行下一個另外一個是你們的整個基金管理一團糟你們現在自己設定了一個門檻五千萬以上的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8227.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8250.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
才要去查核查核的比例佔你總基金的預算只有兩成多這是審計部的報告直指你們的整個管控的覆蓋率太少了完全不足這麼少的一個覆蓋率多數都是你勞動部說了算包括我前面指出來的你這一些製作影片的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8251.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8272.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
加起來每一年沒有超過五千萬所以根本不用送這一個審核所以只要部長拍板就可以這其實並不是只要送審核啦簡單來說審議部這報告是指其實我們還有在另外設一個內控的機制你們內控機制也沒有發揮功能啊所以你是雙重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8274.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8293.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
雙重的不足嘛第一個你設了一個高門檻審計部報告直指你這個五千萬其實是不合理的嘛我們審理的公務預算一百萬幾十萬在立法院裡面每一筆委員直指細細的審結果到了你的救安基金五千萬以下的通通不用審啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8294.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8314.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
跟委員說明並不是五千萬你有送委員會審嗎跟委員說明沒有啊這個指的其實也不是委員會這個指的是我們在另外設了一個內控的機制我知道再去做事前事後的把關所以我們現在會接下來會要來提出了強化把關的機制裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8314.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8343.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
也會針對事前的審查的強化甚至事後的集合來做強化的把關這事情也在我們強化把關機制的方案裡面好你這個問題真的很大難怪這個弊端重生那所以我在這邊就具體的訴求拒絕勞動部的小金庫現在就要修正救安基金管理機制而部長你答應大家你當時允諾是一個月之後你會提其實時間差不多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8345.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8358.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們一定會在一個月內提出就是一月到了餒對我們一定會在一個月內一定會提出什麼時候你告訴大家我先告訴你我的訴求我不知道你的改革內容有沒有比照這個第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8360.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8364.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
你的媒體宣傳費用大家剛剛已經聽到了勞動部跟衛福部天差地遠所以沒宣費用如果編到公務預算立法院逐筆審查就不會有你們這樣子浮邊爛邊的一個情況未來你的沒宣費是不是應該回歸公務預算來編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8378.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8398.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
跟委員說明確實勞動部過去長期以來我們確實存在著我們其實有很多的經費的使用我覺得是過度依賴救安基金的狀況那這部分我覺得我們也會來跟行政院跟主計來爭取應該該回到供應供預算的部分這部分我們會來跟行政院來爭取這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8403.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8420.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
另外一個你們自己自設的五千萬以上計劃你的那個審核的門檻要不要下修跟文說明並不是五千萬才需要審核好像五千萬以下怎樣做都可以不是我們會在這個相關的計劃的用途上面做出更明確的把關 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8423.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8439.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我們幾個強化機制上面幾個大的方向第一個用途上面會做出明確的把關跟範定再來是一個在管理跟審查的機制要強化這裡面可能包括事前跟事後再來一個事情是關於資訊的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8440.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8457.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那我說這幾個案我剛剛看了委員其實提到的部分我覺得我們當然可以來考慮就是說我們因為我們現在是設了一個內控的機制是不是一定是只能五千萬有沒有可能下修這部分我們是可以我們可以但並不是五千萬以下完全不用審查並不是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8457.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8477.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
所以我要求你們每一項計畫 其實是使用救安基金 你的預算要想使編列 審計單位才可以監管這都是我們接下來希望的方向 如果是公開透明 你們就應該要做到這樣當然 這都是我們希望的方向好 我要求立刻修正 那你什麼時候 你要告訴大家你這個審核機制 什麼時候要公布一個月真的快到了 部長其實應該就這個禮拜 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8479.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8503.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
就是這禮拜 禮拜五前公佈應該就是這禮拜好 禮拜五前公佈對好那另外一個我要問的是麥當勞打工少女輕生事件是這個事件其實凸顯最嚴重的是我們未成年人他打工的時候他可能對於自己的保護力是不足所以就更需要政府的機制來強化我們來保障他但是這個個案我們看了真的非常遺憾他是在麥當勞這麼大的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8505.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8518.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
企業體系裡面還發生他從性騷到被性侵這當中沒有得到一個適當的政府的力量的介入跟幫忙那我要問部長的是其實現在16到18歲打工的情況還是是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8522.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8536.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那怎麼樣去確保這些未成年人16到18歲他們在職場是安全的你在今年的勞檢專案裡面你會不會針對這些未成年人他的職場安全你們有一個專案的勞檢計畫會不會去推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8538.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8560.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
跟委員說明我們其實已經在規劃114年的專案勞檢裡面我們會擴大尤其是針對這個職場的性騷擾他的防治尤其是要提供可能假設被害人他一些心理諮商等等等事後這次也就是這次麥當勞沒有做到的事情我們會把它列為我們在114年的專案勞檢擴大專案勞檢裡面的重點項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8563.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8574.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
對 我要求的是特別針對他有僱用16到18歲的這個企業場域當然 甚至我們都還希望未來在這個年輕人上面的勞動教育都必須要再加強因為你讓他們有相關的勞動意識相關的權利意識我覺得這也是非常重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8581.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8598.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
好 因為我覺得這個職場安全企業負起這個責任其實是蠻重要特別針對未成年人的保護我希望勞動部 這個洪部長你一直也很關心弱勢這些未成年人我希望你可以再發更多的支持當然 我也打工過好 謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝部長接下來請蘇清泉質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8616.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8626.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
好我們請蘇委員謝謝主席我請邱部長還有我們健保署的陳副署長好請邱部長還有健保署 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8634.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8654.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
我現在問你兩個問題等一下再問台大院長我現在診所越開越大前幾天又看到嚇死人的診所這麼大間然後把醫院的醫生都吸光光那為什麼診所會越開越大這是我們稅制的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8655.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8675.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
你看在便宜,在台大醫院,在中大型醫院裡面的醫生他每一筆錢都是要繳鎖的稅他到診所去掛個虛名的共同負責人然後他的稅,在診所做幾天這樣賺多少錢沒人知道結果他繳的稅都繳五萬、十萬、十五萬那在便宜大,都要繳七八十萬、八萬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8684.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8698.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
所以這個是把醫院,我那一天長庚醫院的急診部主任被找去開業在平生東路,我常常在路上看,在外面吃飯,在做醫美這是很糟糕的事情,這是整個國家的損失 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8709.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8720.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
這個健保局昨天有講說超過一億的要給他要評鑑要什麼的診所的那個評鑑設施標準那個跟醫院差 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8724.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8750.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個你要不要處理 健保署要不要處理這個再這樣他要搞個洗腎 要搞個醫美 要搞個什麼的話一年做個一億 兩億 三億都超過 比地區醫院還大我現在想要來 我今天有提案喔是不是在美醫 會重症的醫師外科的還是什麼的他的醫師扣除喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8751.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8761.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所得稅扣除,我們來調查一下查友會那邊我已經找要提案了那你的看法是怎麼樣好,第一個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8763.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8789.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我在八九年前就在財政委員會當立法委員的時候就提出幫醫院的一個累積一些相關的開銷尤其是醫師醫事人員能夠扣稅啦但是在財政委員會是沒有通過啦我想後來大家也一直在關心這件事情那集中症的醫院第一個他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8791.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8813.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
真的各個醫院為了要撐這個集中這個責任醫院真的花了很多的成本也必須要怎麼樣去留住他更多的力度這才能夠維繫我們在醫療體系很重要的一環所以我完全贊成蘇昭偉的一個建議我們看怎麼樣來溝通這可能在財委會那邊要 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8818.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8840.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我知道就是因為這個我以前都提過案所以我知道這個要做很多的溝通診所你叫他要死保死消診所因為78%這個必要費用那剩下22%要繳稅要扣掉他的薪資怪不得要繳三萬五萬、三萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8843.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8857.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
我一天去中部某大型醫學中心,我去那裡看,我還在做專業會我去急診室看,那急診室的醫生,是給我叫,說知道我是在衛科檢驗室長他說,哇,副教授,學理科的副教授,現在坐在這裡看急診,那時候要10點,晚上啊兩個年輕夫婦帶孩子來,看得不舒服,還在叫 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8871.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8899.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
他說我做到補考的時候就是要用腳我阿姓現在都早上在開業都他的菜市場靠得到他的郵局討錢車站討錢現在九點多他們在喝紅酒看了在喝紅酒他說這什麼體統所以我早上我趕緊把他們的小學科的急診的調點調很多 調五十幾%但是還是不夠所以健保署對於這個不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8901.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8929.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
市長 欸 署長 副署長你要怎麼處理啊 要怎樣 要怎樣 這一定要處理 不然醫生跑掉了這是這樣啦 其實我們現在分區的管理 現在醫事公會全聯會也提一個案那11基層總額 他就提到到某一個 他收入到某一個勘詐的心 就要責負啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8932.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8956.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
這個目前當然應該還是在討論當中啦討論當中那至於說我們過去就有在實施中,你不要疑心一直去那個大便開的那個精塑一直走著走著去現在過去就有慣例啦,那個數額比較高,譬如說超過十萬塊就會特別的一個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8957.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8985.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
就會把他責負啦也是一直在想辦法但是我還是要跟趙薇報告一下齁其實不是所有的診所都是明星診所啦齁你如果去走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8987.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9008.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
他比較不會說話不要說說話 怕犯罪的互動很多醫生都要轉眼而已沒有啦就是所以如果是診所我們也要照顧這個我贊成那比較所以這個要整體的考驗不是像我舉個例子台北市的診所有 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9009.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9037.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
台北市裡面要租金幾啦請人幾啦所以你看一天如果沒有看到30個意思是沒薪水的但是有超過30個的不到50%大型然後像前幾天有一個開幕的吹牛吹牛說他一年要搞幾億幾億這個要加強管理好不好當然當然那另外一個我要一個提案就是麻醉的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9038.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9068.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那個七百多家醫美診所只有四十家接受評鑑然後其他的麻醉就出問題啦那麻醉醫學會我也不看他們就三百萬麻醉醫學會好像說他們很重要他們沒人他們就學生才這麼少每年的專科醫師限定名額大家保障既得利益者眼科也是一樣麻醉科也是一樣然後在外面沒人所以我今天提案有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9070.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9090.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
心臟外科的醫師,移植外科的醫師,或者重症的醫師等等你給他訓練麻醉,讓他接受一個程度讓他去執行也是相關的麻醉,那你要很高檔的就不要做那這樣的話也可以紓解這些麻醉 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9092.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9115.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
量能不夠不然我看那邊麻醉醫學院沒有補啊繼續在出問題你當理事長我當理事長我們這樣看得下去喔台大院長你這樣看得下去嗎對不對欸 那要Cue你了我跟你講不然這樣要怎麼改革我再說這個案子是可以研議的吧我想 市委市召委過去一直在醫界當領袖也一直在 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9116.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9141.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那個推動這個品質安全我們已經發表很久了嘛所以品質安全絕對是變成品質安全絕對是我們藝界努力的目標啦啊現在就是人數的shift變成你到時候大便的時候沒辦法起床因為麻醉的問題嘛所以這也要麻醉藝學院各個專科藝學院都有他的立場啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9142.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9154.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以這個可能真的要做下來研議啦不管是從醫院的解決或者是從診所方面他們的現在來大醫院麻醉醫師都缺啦麻醉科醫師說全部都要麻醉科醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9158.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9170.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
你看那些人他們沒有人他們根本就擺爛了總是不能讓那個沒有他們也是得頭很優秀啦也很堅持我說他們醫學要處理這一塊是擺爛啦我不是說他們醫師哪有這個部分真的要大家站在站在團隊立場共同解決全國醫界的 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9178.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9200.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
人民的健康 醫界的問題 大家齁講實話啦 醫生要在醫生訓練到PY2其實都已經很堅強很強了啦他只要再接受一些訓練的話 其實他可以做更多對對 福和社區民眾需求的治療這個馬上研議啦齁來啊 請台大副院長副院長主席給我一分鐘啦好 沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9209.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9233.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
院長,你的副院長是女醫師協會的理事長嘛,副職人嘛。那我說你是台大院長龍頭,台灣最高的,跟龍總是兩個在既競爭又聯合。我要跟你說,我把你趕走啦,你有話要說的不要說太快,不要講太快,不要衝第一線,這樣很危險啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9234.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9254.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
像上次,今年7月在改那個法律的時候,健保法我是推1.1塊錢,有在簽1.0.95,王一鳴那我後來我也撤了,就是說用主決議來協商,感謝邱副長這陣子拚到這時你去回天堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9258.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9266.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
你給我講說1.1塊錢會有道德瑕疵我還真是吞不下去你說的三藝四蛤沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9269.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9297.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
謝謝委員蘇委那我首先要謝謝蘇委員替我們一介包括剛才那兩個案子我們都贊成而且集中南韓的醫師在不夠已經是現在進行是不是未來式那假如我們沒有更好的作為那第二個是我是擔心健保會破產不是不是因為因為大家也知道我們為了保久已經一年要補那麼多假如是一點一塊我怕我們這整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9298.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9326.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
國家所以那時候我跟陳為民院長其實是在台大榮總在開會的時候有記者來問我我不是說這個會這個會讓我因為現在其實大家知道健保是總額制嘛總額制假如我們訂了1.1塊的話就等於把總額制取消那這個確實會有很大的管理危機啦1.1塊錢會有道德消失我當然支持1.0.95就不會有道德消失嗎你覺得在睡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9328.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9341.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
講這個聽不下去所以不要說太快你這樣把我們打進去我們大家都灰頭苦臉健保組織不會倒健保要怎麼可能會倒啦老保要怎麼倒啦單身便衣會倒 醫生會倒台台你再說0.9就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9345.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9369.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
這毛鼠你醫藥代替都給他定點酒就好了因為他有很多公務預算所以怎麼補都補得起來邱部長 意思是不是這樣台大給他定點酒 醫藥都給他定點酒fix 固定點子給他沒有 台大沒有那麼多公務預算還是要還是要自相自滅現在台大的無面小現場頭髮越掉越多為什麼因為現在很多地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9370.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9394.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
都要臺大去幫忙 說你請婚禮嗎 這麼多人 這麼多人買就買其實那些如果沒有一點盈餘來做怎麼去增加教學費用 怎麼去增加病人的需求怎麼去協助偏鄉地區的一些工作所以我想給他足夠的一個點數真的很感謝 這是必要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9395.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9419.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
不用特別對台大那個啦不用特別跟他照顧不用特別跟他照顧 普通照顧就好沒有啦 我要說的意思是每件事都很辛苦啦醫療有點節育他才有能力去改善品質 增加設備 增加方式那儀器都這麼貴這本來就要放策略性的一點盈餘嘛不然的話怎麼搞得下去每一個人都臨臨 大家都這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9421.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9441.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
北北安安安要有點風吹草動就受不了了因為立法院要編特別預算了對不對所以給各個議院有一點盈餘一點點這個活水才有辦法做嘛包委員我想不管是哪一個黨派黨啦齁或者是政府都希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9442.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9462.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
健保能夠永續都希望用最低的保惠能夠照顧最多的所以這個其實過去幾十年來在醫療體系的改革工作環境的改善大家都一起在努力那在健保總和這個制度之下大家有不同的見解我也希望召委了解到不同的見解但是就了解了所以對於總和的評論 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9466.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9476.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
有各種不同的見解 那我想我們都榮喜但是就是最重要大家心都一致的希望人民得到最充分的健康照顧最後問吳院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9478.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9496.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
你這件事 富山哥這件事 什麼很多事情你到底是多大的壓力 什麼資政局就給你施壓 給你關收 關心 關切我們立法院沒有在關收 我們都只是關心跟關切而已我們從來不關收 你是到底 你承受多大的壓力謝謝 謝謝 其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9499.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9522.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
真的謝謝今天有這個會讓我一次把話講清楚其實這個都是我們獨立獨立調查而且獨立送懲戒獨立在整個調查的過程當中我個人沒有接過任何一通電話那我也今天特別請我們調查委員會的主任委員也是我們性評會的主任委員也是我們女醫師全國的高淑溫教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9522.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9536.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
我有問他說有沒有人打電話甚至任何包括打電話寫email或寫什麼沒有我再一次的重申沒有壓力而且我們也是做了應該是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9537.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9558.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
以我們的行政效率的話是完全沒有去去去耽擱這點謝謝蘇委員還有今天有好幾位委員都提到這件事情那我趁這個機會在此澄清好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們處理臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9567.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9580.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
來 我們現在處理臨時提案總共有五個案子啦好 請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9586.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9609.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
第一案要求衛福部研議辦理心臟外科移植外科重症等醫師接受麻醉科一定期間的專業訓練之後可以執行麻醉業務以彌補專業人力的不足降低重症患者的麻醉生命風險提案人委員蘇清泉陳昭芝圖全集第二案要求衛福部提出改善方法如在醫院的重症醫師所得稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9611.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9632.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
列有重症医师特别扣除额或者诊所也要时报时销不然重症医师前往诊所职业的趋势会越来越严重而大医院将会面临缺乏重症医师的情况对于重症病患赴大医院就医之权利将会大受威胁提案人委员苏清泉陈昭之图全集第三案 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9633.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9653.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
要求衛福部應比照勞動部之做法公開調查報告含調查小組成員名單讓社會檢視並檢討此次調查缺失以更適當之方法重啟調查並於調查期間將有權處理機密文件之涉案人員調離現職提案人委員陳昭芝 陳金輝 邱振鈞 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9655.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9671.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
第四案特決議為服務部應限期於二個月內啟動並完成醫師性騷擾行為揭露平台建置作業事後並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝 蘇清泉 陳昭芝 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9673.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9685.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
第五案有鑑於目前已有遺傳性及罕見疾病指定檢驗機構臨床細胞遺傳學檢驗類職業醫師人員荒的問題特決議衛福部及所屬國民健康署應限期於二個月內完成該類國內人力提振之改善措施並就新增報告簽署人資格審查委員會辦理審查作業經進級檢討事後並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9702.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9706.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、邱振軍宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9726.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9755.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
跟委員報告就是剛剛部長在諮詢台語經常講我們研議就是在那個原提案要求衛福部加兩個字研議然後辦理心臟外科、椅子外科好好以下都是同樣那請問委員有沒有意見沒有沒有那通過即期啦即期齁好感謝建國啦衛福部要即期辦理啦即期處理來第二案行政委員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9758.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9780.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那個第二案剛剛那個部長也在資訊台講說就是原提案要求維護部與財政部研擬改善方法就修正加那個維護部與財政部研擬改善方法把那個提出刪除掉兩個字刪掉好就改這裡啦好可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9781.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9790.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我覺得這個提案是對重症醫師來講有很大的幫助所以可以讓這些重症醫師喜歡也願意留在大型的醫療機構從事他的重症醫療的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9803.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9823.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
不過現在反而就是說那個重症在定義上有沒有未來在處理上的一些困難度另外就是說其實所有的醫師在大型醫療機構的付出裡面都有他一定的角色那我們現在是為了要減少這個不管是院前診所或者是診所來 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9826.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9849.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
針對這個重症醫師提供適當的協助事實上我們也了解急重難寒的醫師都有相關的問題一種來說是因為去受到這個診所的影響而離開的話那麼對大型醫院來講都非常辛苦而且對於民眾的健康維護事實上是有它相關的困擾所以請大家看我剛才做的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9850.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9872.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
那其實也有人說除了醫師以外那護理師如果他還是在照顧重症男孩的話那個保障足不足夠這個也都有提過所以柏文可能在這個臨體裡面也要在如果只是單純針對重症醫師做這個扣除的話似乎還可以有再調整的空間以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9874.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9893.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那個護理人員的要到比較高的稅率是比較少啦,所以這點才是倒是重症這邊要如何界定,這個請部長、衛部要去想想看另外,或者遵守也要時報時報,這個有需要寫在這裡嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9897.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9902.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
我們現在就要高責負,因為這樣會怕對金手,他會覺得有壓力,這個可能看那個...那一句話要發掉嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9915.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9940.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們就加強重症比較重要或者是你高要大型的診所要能夠有適當的管制什麼因為診所一半以上還是很弱勢不然就改成或者大型診所也要18、19因為他的收入比醫院還高啦大型診所這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9946.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9971.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
或者大型診所也要時報時報因為我們這裡是尊重提案委員就提中正醫師那有沒有需要說在另外你也可以另外再提或者是這一次要在裡面一起考量進去是不是請委員裁解一下這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9974.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10000.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
王委員 王主席不然你要改做集中南韓還是怎樣因為剛才你託人選集中南韓是一個大方向嘛其實我們也知道兒科也是做需要幫忙的部分啦所以真的就會越拉越需要看這個衛福部這邊有沒有整體的考量謝謝我知道這是靈體 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10004.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10020.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
沒有,少多少少就好了,集中南韓,駐俄科現在俄科裡面有一些投入在韓並的其實也很辛苦,那些也很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10023.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10044.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
醫院裡面的兒科醫師的確也很辛苦不管哪一科啦因為你看那不是副教授在值班啦連教授都在值班啦小兒科日本的大連大連台北慈濟的副醫生那都高修啊那都要回到第一班 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10048.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10053.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
極重難函俄科的一般科,感染科也是很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10065.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10093.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
你認得集中南韓計額科醫師所得稅好,就給他加上去這是NE嘛,不然我們的NE的主要是要去跟政府研究啊要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10094.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10117.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這真的會罷工的,很感動那要再等嗎?其中哪一行?巨額科重症的地方都改?巨額科等,這額科專家巨額科等市長你有意見嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10136.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10138.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
就改這樣啦,來第三案第三案那個處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10142.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10162.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我是衛福部人事處這邊就是提案委員是希望我們可以公開調查報告那這邊請做一個說明就是上次在我們將案報告的時候就是委員希望我們去了那個識別化之後將調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10164.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10181.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
給衛環委員會報告逐一說明親子報告那幾位委員聽到我的報告因為15位委員中間我已經跑了13位那現場也有好幾位委員都有聽過我的報告應該是我在報告的時候不是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10182.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10204.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
只有針對我們整個報告的結果我們連我們的作業方式還有我們的訪談同仁的相關的運作方式還有一些那個對話都有跟委員做一個報告這確實是一個比較屬於內部管理而且也是比較屬於是同仁之間他比較容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10205.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10220.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
被如果公開出來很容易很容易去找到是誰去敘述這一段的相關過程所以我們是比較所以我們遵照上次委員會的決議這樣逐一說明之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10221.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10246.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
在過程中也非常謝謝很多委員都給我們建議說以後日後的一些相關的經濟建議的那個措施所以我們希望說後面的這一段是不是可以再給衛福部的一個機會就是後面那一整段就把它文字調整成原提案要求衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10248.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10259.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
因檢討此次調查缺失並於兩個月將檢討報告送衛環委員會以上文字建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10262.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10290.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我今天早上質詢的時候已經有把你整個調查的這個品質以祖密為例140份當中有47份說他有歇斯底里咆哮等等有52份說他有言語肢體心理暴力的行為但是你最後用15位來定論他是未罷准那個第四條那個未就是已經跟主席報告過就是那個字是沒有未罷凌就以這個為例你這個方法學有很多問題我今天早上報告你大概都在 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10291.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10308.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
然後就說有多然後百分之八十一點四人他不願意接受訪談你們沒有辦法去處理然後也講不出你最後訪談了十幾個人以一個人為例以觀光署名為例一百四十個人你訪談了十七個人那十五個人的結論都幫他講話那兩個人講的那些話你們都當作耳邊風他事實上你整個取樣也都是不對的所以我現在只是要求你們比照勞動部勞動部有把這個調查報告公告我沒有要叫你我今天已經示範給你看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10320.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10347.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我今天在質詢內容完全沒有涉及誰是被約談的所以比照都不調查上網然後這個調查報告調查小組成名單因為我現在你說有外部到現在我覺得都沒有看到然後要用更適當的方法因為我已經指出你的缺點了你是取樣很偏頗第二次我叫你重啟調查那你檢查缺失你剛剛說你只要檢查缺失剛剛根本沒有人承認他有缺失怎麼檢討缺失 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10348.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10357.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
他根本沒有買單我的說法但是我又那麼具體你可以去查再去查一次再來就是說涉案人員本身那個職位他本身有機密文件的管理權 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10358.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10380.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
我這個質疑百分百合理啊他必須先離開這個縣執啊他人家才能去做處理啊那將來他怎麼又回到假設假設又回到縣執他怎麼避開看當初是誰說了他霸凌這個東西你不處理整個衛福部以後的工作時期以後的真相都沒有是讓衛福部好好能夠工作欸所以我這三點我看不出有什麼問題啊部長 不對我講的都有問題比早有勞動部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10387.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10410.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
公開調查包圍你要怎麼遭都隨便你啊然後重啟調查阿都布當時也是重啟調查我已經告訴你缺失那麼多光光你給我看的資料的結論就不是你該有的結論嘛我一直說我只說一百八十幾個人然後也寫出百分之三十三跟三十七人說他有霸凌那你當作沒有喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10416.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10431.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
不好意思我針對委員的那個三點我只要再簡單說明第一個調閱權的部分在公務員的部分絕對有迴避的那個問題不只是職權迴避而且有利益迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10432.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10455.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以所有的調查報告重視他今天在哪個的重視我今天人事處我今天我如果人事處的案子被政風處那個調查我人事處長也是不能去跟政風處調所有的報告這個比喻可能是不恰當處長我那天問你你說你在管欸我說他是你的上司上司說要看那個調查報告你根本不敢回我 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10459.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10483.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
中山不准看那份文件嗎我只要依照行政院的公文處理規定我只要根據行政院公文處理的規定被質疑的當事人當事人或利害關係的人絕對不可以調閱涉及自己的報告你先跟他溝通好不好然後我們處理第四案這個先保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10484.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10508.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
他剛剛來溝通過了我沒有辦法接受就是比照勞動部的方式處理啊那表示勞動部其實第一次調查是內容蠻完整只是那個結論不對有這個東西結論不對主席講一下那個不應該講說你們跟勞動部的整個調查差異在什麼地方講清楚這第一點那第二點我是覺得陳委員的提案我有點對不起我是看一下你的第三段話 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10510.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10536.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
最後結論記憶卻僅基於事務會的員工訪談定調為霸凌不是那個字是為我剛剛有就是為霸凌他總共140份裡面最後15個人說他沒有但是事實上有50幾個人說他有霸凌對你以名的時候這樣這個為要改掉了對 為要改掉 謝謝因為剛剛有改成為啦 好啦你差一點說一下 我差一點說一下好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10539.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10559.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
總召喊還有各位委員非常感謝各位對於本案的一個關心我想這個跟勞動部的差異大概有幾個部分第一個我們在勞動部那邊他是屬於那個單一事件那我們這個事實上是我們總共我們在這裡面我們的那個根據委員他所提供的我們現在目前做了一個全盤的一個調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10561.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10579.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
另外第二個它所涉及的我們這裡面我剛才說我們用的是量化跟質化兩個部分同時並進同時並行另外第三個剛剛我想陳委員剛剛有說到就是說我們的質化訪談裡面我們這裡面有兩位他有認為就是說是有這樣的情況可是另外15位他認為是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10581.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10603.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
那我們其實這裡面行政法裡面有一個非常叫做為私行為一體就是說我們在對一個人的一個評價必須要整個綜合你不能夠只是說就是說單聽某一個部分那這裡面確實有一些同仁他認為有一個比較大聲但是其他的同仁他認為沒有那我們調查委員是根據整個綜合的一個評價來進行這樣的一個判斷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10605.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10629.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那另外第三個非常重要的一點就是說其實在上次的整個未還委員裡面大家也都決議了這裡面我們在邀請同仁來的時候同仁基本上都他們基本上就認為就是說他們不希望能夠曝光這基本上跟我們之前的那個整個性騷擾的那個案子事實上是類似的一個情況所以我們基於對於同仁這樣的一個尊重我們認為這個不宜那如果說委員如果說大院覺得就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10630.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10659.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我們這裡面如果有一些程序上的瑕疵需要來改進這個我們會一定一定來進行那是不是可以允許讓我們做一個整個調查報告之後兩個月之內再提出來我想這個是我對於整個就是說我們之間的這個差異還有我們現在目前的一個相關作為來跟擔任作為報告還有另外剛剛委員有提到就是說這一個住建一方市場為例已有什麼逼迫深蹲等等這些我們其實之前我們也說過了我們非常歡迎當事人他能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10659.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10680.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
他能夠出來那他如果他覺得他不信任沒關係是不是有陪同這個委員甚至他指定律師這個都沒問題我們都公平公正可是這位同仁到目前為止他就是不願意出來所以我們這個基本上是完完全全是以這個程序來進行那我現在說程序上面目前都已經進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10682.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10699.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
那是不是我們也侵蝕也根據委員會的一個決議來跟這個委員來做一個說明所以是不是可以來按照我們現在目前可以讓我們有兩個月的時間來做報告來 以上好說明 謝謝那個召委可以讓我說一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10700.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10715.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
我覺得這個案子其實無論是衛福部或是陳昭之委員大家都想要保護這一些受害者我想這個是大家都可以接受的所以陳昭之委員提到說這個阻密的部分擔心他可能在這個職務上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10716.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10742.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
他可能職權比較高然後可能會去讓這些員工擔心會變成是被秋後算帳我覺得某一種可能請部長跟次長再考量一下就是說確定一定不會有這樣的事情發生我覺得陳昭志委也是很好意因為我們都是想要我們都要保護這一些員工不要讓他們戰戰兢兢今天好不容易鼓起勇氣講這些事情如果被秋後算帳 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10743.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10772.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那個就是我們對他們的保護不足這個就是大家應該要檢討的所以我比較具體建議第一個就是說的確這一次你們時間也很壓縮本來應該是兩個月後來說大家要趕快所以變一個月嘛所以過程的確也是有些瑕疵可以改進的所以你們答應的就是說要去提你們的檢討未來類似這樣的調查你們的調查機制就是應該要檢討這個我想你們應該要做了好不好這個第一點一定要做這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10773.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10783.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
然後第二個當時我記得部長也有說如果有新市政就重啟調查對不對包括時代力量他們有開具轉會然後有受害人出來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10785.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10805.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
就是說我都沒有被調查那個心事證也應該要重新調查所以那個部分就是是不是趙志文可以就是說你要求要調查部分我們針對心事證你們硬要調查還有的確在你們的調查報告當時講的時候的確你們的問卷裡面就是有人有提到說曾經什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10806.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10821.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
但那個你們就漏死掉了就是說沒有再往下追查那所謂新市政重新調查我覺得給衛福部時間就是說大家是希望說不要有受委屈的同仁沒有被看見那針對那一些曾經有表達說 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10823.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10849.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
有曾經有過的或者是頻率比較高的是不是可以有什麼方法部長讓同仁安心知道說還是可以持續不是這件事情到此告一段落如果持續有新市政持續有同仁覺得有委屈沒有被受理這個是一直開放的門沒有關然後持續那如果有新的你必須承諾委員會就繼續叫他我覺得昭之委員他是很站在這個員工的立場想要讓真相是更清楚那 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10850.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10874.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這個我覺得是不是可以去做這樣那至於阻密的這個人事案我想部長聽到大家的疑慮跟擔心這個部分看你們在職選上面是不是可以做什麼處理我是具體這樣建議啦那看到這個謝謝王文綺剛剛你大概一直在強調新市政但是我今天早上的質詢一直在告訴大家我明明有看到很多的東西照顧三成的人但是一個都自自沒有提 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10875.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10889.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
就這麼多的調查問題我只是以一個案例為例我今天只是先以主密就本身你的如果你的調查充滿了瑕疵跟點那幾個人你有一百四十個人裡面有三十不同的問題都有三成以上說他有 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10890.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10916.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
曾經經常或總是都有提到但是這個部分你們都不提然後最後訪問了17個也不知道怎麼找的然後15個人幫他講話那兩個人其實又講了很多很清楚的話那這些都沒有在報這答案就是說未辦所以這個新市政LY講一下就是說他有調查到的跟勞動部第一次一樣其實勞動部第一次已經有點到很多東西但是他的結論不太符合所以我是希望我今天提出的那個方法學的那個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10917.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10931.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
或是你取樣問題那個部分要一併處理不是說新的新的那你原來舊有的都沒有處理好你怎麼說新的定義是包括這個就是說原有的事實你要重新再檢驗一次嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10934.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10962.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
可以嗎就是原有的事實再重新檢驗一次因為你也說過如果我們不滿意可以再提出來我是問你的員工寫出這些東西讓他士氣好你管你的衛福部如果大家都士氣好你不是大家會做得好嗎那有關這個因為主命牽涉到當事人那你這個資料怎麼保護我覺得很重要因為這個大家員工都跟我講啊都跟我講說他們怕秋後算帳我唸了不是二十句一二十句他們寫的話給你們看嘛他們都怕秋後算帳說我還在職啊所以我不敢講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10963.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10973.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
都寫出我剛剛有依依念給你們聽啊那你怎麼保證他永遠看不到這份報告因為他的主責他的權責裡面就有一項他管理負責機密文件的管理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10974.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11002.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
你英文一四人看不懂嗎 還可以 還可以講話你先問他 看他四萬多塊內地你給蔡主委看一看這樣好不好 對啦 自然勝利了啦一定一定 針對剛剛真的很感動啦大家真的為了把這件事情做得更好將來能夠更好 真的是我個人覺得很感動這樣而且也幫台灣整個工作環境弄好你的部門欸 你的員工欸一定 第一個我保證絕對不會有任何秋後算帳的任何嫌疑可以 我在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11003.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11014.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
但是你要設立機制啊你不會馬上又升官了那下面你的保證就是衛福部又不知道誰來接你那升官了然後處理部長說我也很感動的啦部長也不會邱柯算帳好不好這樣文藝金用出來好不好來來來部長我們很感動的處長你再唸一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11024.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11048.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
人事署署長你再唸一次啦 別再插嘴我唸一次 歪歪的啦就是在第一段的時候第一段的第四行那個未要改成未有的未不是因為的未然後第三段的這個部分原提案要求未不佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11049.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11067.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
因檢討此次調查缺失並於兩個月將檢討報告送未還委員會檢討之後有新的整理嗎會有新的報告出來吧檢討報告就是我們那個範圍一定會 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11070.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11087.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
包含你就是兩位委員今天給我們的指導比如說問卷啊還有什麼方法等等這部分我們都會去我們會概括在這份報告裡面檢討後通常有一些動作我們這邊能弄好就結束了 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11088.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11104.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
檢討後有一些動作啊檢討後的部長對不對你檢討你會覺得你沒辦法轉然後改善嘛要有行動的改善檢討及改善改善策略改善措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11104.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11118.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
那個不是改就是措施要去執行的是啊 改善措施 措施就是執行的那就是報告WQ我再稍微重複一下兩個月內將檢討及改善措施報告送衛環委員會檢討及改善措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11124.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11152.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
然後好 那個保證就當事人不會看到的部分部長你是怎麼保證法就是讓他明確的大家都知道啊他以後會看到啊人事室處長已經其實講過很多次啦這個絕對不會給當事人這個未接他只是整理資料而已啊不是不是我有矚密的職權啊他可以看 矚密的職權我一定會給你看啊你自己定的啊但是只要有牽涉到自己本身的即使就是不可能終身嗎絕對 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11154.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11182.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
終身不能看嘛 對不對這是制度的問題這是國家制度的問題好 謝謝好啦 那這樣就照修改後通過來 第四案 比較快點陳慶威在立案啦第四案行政長沒意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11183.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11211.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那個跟委員報告齁就是針對陳委員的提案裡面因為剛剛部長跟那個邱委員報告就是說三個月嘛所以我們建議把他後面倒數第三行開始特決議衛福部應限期三個月內啟動研議醫師騷擾那個性騷擾行為接入平台程序就是把那個二改成三然後完成改成研議然後最後作業改成程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11214.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11216.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
就建置程序可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11220.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11243.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
好那第四案第四案就照宣告通過第五案那第五案就是針對陳偉宇有說應限期兩個月內完成該類我們建議是把它刪掉到那個就是從我們希望格局拉大一點就是說完成遺傳性及罕病指定檢驗機構之審查作為及精進檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11245.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11259.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
不要一直聚焦在這麼小的範圍裡面我們希望把整個格局範圍幫他那您應該知道現在這個很缺人好 OK好 可以 謝謝好 謝謝依照修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11272.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11301.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我從不打架的好那個就是因限於兩個月內完成遺傳性及罕病指定檢驗機構之審查作業進行檢討就是把那個我們希望把格局拉大把剛剛前面陳偉宇已經有提了有遺傳性及罕病指定機構之那個檢驗機構之臨床細胞檢驗血這一類我們把這前面標題再把它往下拉我們希望用整體來檢討不是只有針對這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11304.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11308.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我們全部的臨時提案都處理完畢那我們現在休息8分鐘就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11336.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11352.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
阿就要放尿阿要放尿捏然後再跟委員會報告在牛許庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11354.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11364.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
實習完畢我們休息二十分鐘吃便當各位專播的人都要來問啦今天你們看不見大家都要來啦大家都磨刀厚厚啦來 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11839.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11851.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
男人小便超過27秒就是攝護腺有問題了所以我都很嚴格遵守27秒內好 繼續開會請林淑雲委員質詢好 謝謝昭偉是不是還是請我們部長衛福部舅部長不好意思喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11870.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11871.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
好啦 你現在可以來了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11874.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11884.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
委員長部長這個醫院大火8條人命我已經質詢你很多次了我不是談個案我一直跟你講10月7號的時候我跟你講你有沒有去盤點因為到去年年底12月31號醫院評鑑要有117家那你在這個評鑑的過程當中117家有沒有管縣老舊蘇山洞縣等公安問題消防問題的這個發現然後10月7號問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11904.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11918.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
你也不知道然後11月4號再問你有沒有有多少醫院有哪幾家醫院有病安公安的疑慮叫你盤點一下這個到時候我們要優先的這個公安的政策的對策是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11919.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11922.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
你告訴我一個月你當時是說這個恐怕要再調查一次我們會去調查各地方政府還有消防局他們的調查結果一個月內要跟我們報告現在已經兩個月了從10月7號到現在也已經三四個月了這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11934.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11938.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
沒有任何報告來啦各位委員我們跟他說他跟我們承諾全部都沒報告這樣都不怎樣現在這是怎麼裝睡的人叫不醒還是腳麻了不怕還是說明目張膽的在包庇因為一路走來你始終認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11951.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11957.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
這個地方政府的事、地方消防局的事、地方的問題跟你都無關的但我要講說你們的醫院評鑑、你們的醫策會你們都沒有去發現問題到底問題有沒有比較集中在哪些問題、哪些方面然後就政策面要怎麼納入管制你不能說我以後評鑑要納入評鑑項目那也是我跟你說的地區醫院沒有納入公安的任何評鑑你現在說你要改良現在到底是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11981.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11983.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
有到底有187間骨瘤醫治要評測的有問題到底幾間啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11990.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12000.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
好 謝謝委員 我想上次執行以後我們馬上就折承各縣市政府衛生局依照內政部國安局現在差過2個月 你跟我說調查結果和報告就好了它就是到12月31啦我知道啊 今天已經1月2號啊我們那個會把它整理以後馬上那你當初承諾我的是在爭笑的嗎當時你回答我說你們要去調查各地方政府和消防局他們的調查結果一個月之內跟你報告這樣是給我爭笑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12019.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12021.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
一個月兩個多月過去你跟我講說我們還在彙整 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12024.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12048.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
欸 趙薇 現在補充來這裡 自己說的都是親善公共 不用買單 不用負責的嗎你以為是親善跟我講的嗎你這樣對臺人民是這個態度 我不是代表零十五分的我代表全臺灣的人民來這裡監督質詢你你告訴我你一個月內要拿出報告結果兩個多月過去 你不但沒有拿出報告 你還跟人講說這等一下我們還去調查報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12051.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12056.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
阿你現在會把我整瘋嗎?還是你上回是青菜公共的?我現在說這個很嚴肅喔今天一月,跟兩天的橋櫃兩各位啊你沒調查報告欸!10月25日,還有便宜內發生火災內苗栗縣慈祐醫院,凌晨4點多還發生火警幸好全院105人就地避難,無人傷亡詳細的起火原因還要調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12078.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12085.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
而且恰好的是這一家醫院的評鑑合格校期也是這一波裡面要接受評鑑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12087.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12100.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以這間便衣評鑑到期的期間呢它就發生不明原因的火災這間的火災 那間的火災我現在問你說這個問題 主管機關的衛福部你有去了解嗎 你有重視這個問題嗎你在這個狀況裡面立委質詢這麼多次 你對我虛偽偽疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12110.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12117.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
那你現在是治醫院的公安於何地你治醫院看病的病人於何地 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12120.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12141.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
你現在閃閃躲躲又裝睡覺不行你再讓我講下去我真的不想用形容詞可是我覺得說 我覺得很羞恥欸你出身醫界你對病人的安全 公共安全卻這樣子忽視忽略你來這裡都是在應付你自己的不是真的發自內心覺得醫院的公共安全很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12142.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12150.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
我已經跟昨天問你第三倍了你都在想我去跟地方的政府跟消防局會政一下我現在不是在說會政你評測單位 你的醫測會你不用親自去了解第一時間趕快所有數據拿回來看一下這一些被評鑑的醫院 病安公安的問題大多數都是在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12168.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12184.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
那如果是全面性的大家在這些領域都有問題的話你面對珍貴的生命和公共安全你不用想說我們的對策是什麼嗎還是擺明了就是說包庇這些公安缺失的意願然後你又想說我不能得罪他們這問題這麼嚴重我自己自我揭露就很難看政府抹黑全土灰 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12191.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12198.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
現在是要替監護擦脂抹粉還是真的要替白人安全要顧好病人的安全每一個到醫院去的他的生命安全都應該要被保障我不是談個案但從那個大火事件的傷亡個案來看這個危險性不低危險性不低去病院是要提名要求名的去那裡等到沒名這樣感到 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12221.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12230.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你再回答我一次啦答案是什麼我想那個謝謝委員我想如果醫院發生火災不只病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12231.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12241.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
你來告訴我什麼時候給我數據到去年為止因為你剛接受評鑑你住嘴你剛才住嘴你已經有到達人身攻擊的時候我必須要回應因為你就是這個樣子啊很羞恥啊10月問一次11月問一次12月說要一個月之後要給我回答你完全沒有給立委回答我們一生 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12254.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12276.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
你這裡虛偽疑你知兵人的公安與活地還敢在這裡講說你要個人的名譽我們要公共的安全比你個人的名譽還更重要民民的品質安全尤其到醫院的安全是我們花盡多少精力你就空口白話信口雌黃完全沒有提出對策你每天在這裡問你問題有多嚴重你就不懂得怎麼說你是要說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12283.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12296.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
你的扶老責任在哪裡 醫院到底安不安全當下發現 主席 主席 他干擾你的時間我現在在說 他是怎麼跟我的社群在說來 請你講 請你講 抱歉當下發現保護局有待改進時 到底有多少數量有幾件便宜你若不說便宜的名字 你告訴我 總有幾件可以買來 依策委來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12312.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12330.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
沒有 還有什麼來那個誰如果本年度如果社評的醫院在醫院出現值有公安問題相關的建議或者改善的意見因為我們也不是消防單位嘛他是評鑑你現在在說什麼 我聽不懂講我缺話分 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12334.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12355.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
不夠 白白的 給他抽水的他如果發生大火 他是沒有辦法逃生的而就必須要防火區為的話分 這是最重要的不要化完那一場大火 死了八個人裡面不是休息的 是怕煙嗆死了所以煙害的管控 有毒煙的控管 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12356.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12370.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
這個是很重要的我現在問你說除了已經有傷亡的以外你現在評鑑裡面還有幾間有這個防火區域的問題有嚴控的問題有公共安全的問題我現在告訴你有多少數量試射到這個經過了四個月你還講不出來你經過四個月講不出來你跟我講說你在乎病人的安全你在乎醫院的安全現在是怎樣 被你笑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12385.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12390.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
立委問你三次 你講不出來 區議委都有在做啊我現在要問你 你現在是有動於裝 腳麻了 走不掉 沒辦法走還是裝睡人家不行 還是你就是明目張膽的要包庇而在這當中 還有醫院繼續在發生火災這是好運的 哪有壞運的叫病人 那些傷亡的病人的家屬情何以堪啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12415.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12428.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
你現在給我回答 還有幾件有問題你今天這個問題 你就說不出來這麼簡單的問題 我問四個月 你說不出來你叫人家對你不要非議 怎麼可能你叫人家不對你批評 怎麼可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12434.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12452.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
包委員我們12月30要蒐集以後馬上整理馬上跟你報你講的問題我會一天你沒辦法因為你剛剛放寒假啊沒有委員會啊所以你蒐集你要給我報告去哪裡報告我們說到做到說到做到你從來沒有說到做到10月的時候沒有回答我們11月的時候沒有回答我們你告訴我一個月以後要給我答案也沒有回答我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12460.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12464.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
我今天要問的不是這個問題我今天要問的還有很多問題 因為時間有限我都會去進行啦 你放心 我會去進行你說的每一個位都沒有這張 所以不會去放心會去進行啦 但是因為這要牽涉到很多單位嘛你就是你做了什麼 而你今天的作為沒有達到人家可以信任的標準所以你叫人家怎麼對你信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12487.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12498.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
國土事務的資料連體會回覆 馬上會跟委員報告你當初怎麼跟他說一句話 親握著這寡信啊公司的人說親在這裡 親在那裡 都說好好好 威威諾諾是搞都做不到啦 你說出來的話說到做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12510.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12520.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
你今天失信於全國人民,是因為你講出來,你自己未講出來,會不勝為這才是真正的大問題啦先這樣子,謝謝好,謝謝好,謝謝林委員,繼續我們繼續我們請廖瑋祥委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12549.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12565.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
謝謝主席喔 那有請我們的這個衛福部長 勞動部長還有我們的吳院長吳院長還有我們台大的王祖密 台大校方的王祖密 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12573.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12587.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
我想要先請問一下王祖密學生受性騷的部分校方是何時知悉的是112年底還是113年2月那還是是113年6月25號的時候台大醫院發函給校方校方才知道請問是哪個時間點 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12590.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12613.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
報告委員因為這個事情是發生在台大醫院那他是當事人並不是學生所以學校這邊事實上在第一線是不知道因為他是受到騷擾的應該是算是醫院的員工所以學校是在醫院處理完以後學校才知道的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12615.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12628.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
所以我想要請問一下就是這個多名受害家這個如果有這些受害的人我想要請問願醫院何時要通報校方若發生這個事情醫院應該何時通報校方還有祖密請問醫院有義務通報嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12630.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12656.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
因為那個就是剛剛提到的因為依照性供法事實上性供法它發生在工作的場域就有工作場域的負責人那現在就是台大的醫院來處理如果中間有涉及到學生那當然有就他們有義務要跟學校講那學校馬上也會處理可是因為這個事情因為就剛剛跟委員報告的他沒有學生涉及在裡面所以就不是被被性 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12656.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12678.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
不是被性騷的就是學生,也是學生嗎?他是雙重身份啊他是住院醫師他有學生的身份嗎?應該是沒有完全沒有學生的身份好,那其實今天這個事情之所以社會嘩然了因為這所謂的權威醫生,這個權威醫生導致的這個性騷案其實讓全社會都非常的驚訝和訝異 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12680.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12693.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那這個過程中就透露出來我們整個制度和文化上很大的缺陷和很大的問題所以今天我剛剛特別問這個問題其實我也有聽今天早上所有的這個質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12695.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12722.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
當然我們要依法依規勿枉勿縱可是發現這個問題是兩個部長以及教育部的代表C教授的案子是跨身份跨法規競合的案例如果法律沒有規範義務通報的話那的確是法律的漏洞但是在法律還沒修正之前其實這種跨身份或是跨法規競合的案例其實最常也會出現在實習生的身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12723.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12750.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
對不對所以您也點頭那請問一下各位萬一如果未來又發生這樣的性騷案件請問各單位要如何處理才不會拖延是這個我們會來跟醫院這邊我們因為有這次的經驗所以我們會建立一個相關的管道那以前是因為我們區分得很清楚就是說因為像這次涉及的是住院醫師事實上他已經沒有學生的身份可是像您講的說如果這一位當事人他有 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12750.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12767.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
老師的身份他如果他有老師的身份的話我們是不是就請醫院這邊如果知道任何的訊息就可以至少讓學校這邊有一個先知道的這個這個管道所以其實我其實是很敬重我們吳院長和我們的高副院長我們高教授是 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12768.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12793.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
這都是一件很令人驚訝的那這一次當然我聽了你們所有的這個回應其實有很多社會上的質疑有一些部分有一些部分有回答為什麼當初這樣可能沒有意識到他是教授的身份所以我今天特別請各位上來就是說包含部長包含教育部或是包含我們院方和校方其實這個東西應該是會存在在非常多的這種制度裡面這是不是應該痛定思痛的來檢討所以的確當初發生這個事情但是我還有一個疑點 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12796.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12821.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
就是我想要請問一下我們的這個調查主委就是其實我想要請問這位C教授這個權威教授他在台大醫院任職了多久在這個地方任職了多久他任職應該是20多年對那我想要請問一下針對這件事情你們有沒有更進一步的作為因為事實上20多年我相信不會是到今年才發生這件事情吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12823.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12829.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
那這個部分我們應該怎麼去處理呢因為這個是一個令人令社會非常震驚的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12830.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12857.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
我想對於性騷擾這些全民的這個價值了解等等也是最近漸漸的促進成型而且有很多很多的法規那所以那另外一方面其實他有要求要有申訴人那我們這一次我必須要再回去剛才回答前面的問題我們只要針對教職其實他只要有申訴人出來我們是立即通知學校所以從過去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12858.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12872.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
鄭王李等等的事件都是這樣子都是立即通知學校那但是我們也鑒於就是說譬如說鄭的那個事件後來我們因為他是可能懷疑有性侵所以我們性騷沒有辦法處理所以我們用一個另外一個調查小組醫院也是很積極在做那這個因為他確實是他沒有申訴人而我們用雇主主動 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12883.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12907.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好 謝謝高副院長其實我剛剛就是說我有聽你們這些東西所以我現在還是在強調就是說那這個東西你們應該是不是因為二十多年來那這個陳鵝就是應該怎麼去根除它呢這個問題到底要怎麼處理其實這跟勞動部霸凌事件其實有類似的相似之處這就為什麼這次開這個會其實我覺得也很有意義啊就請你們來講清楚之外避免大家持續的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12909.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12929.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這個對於你們的有一些誤解可是事實上這個東西才是你們應該看到的而不是就是說我都是依法依規處理因為顯然這個在這個環境裡面已經有造成這樣的狀況而且二十多年我是不相信就只有到今年才會有人才會有人講這件事情還有另外一個問題就是為什麼沒有申訴人這是不是也值得深究的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12930.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12947.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
就是說為什麼他告訴你了但是他不敢申訴為什麼不敢正式成為申訴人我想這個不只在台大院任何一個受害者他加上權勢等等都有可能他有他的考量他的隱私他的家人等等的考量所以這個我們一定要尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12947.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12971.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
所以也就是鑒於說有可能會影響到他個人所以我們才用由雇主來直接辦案因為我們聽到大概就是有兩三位那也就是這兩三位他也願意接受訪談我們才有可能把這個案子查得比較清楚那至於說過去等等因為現在所加害受害的這就是在現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12972.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12989.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
她有讓她闡述這段時間的情形那過去有沒有這個我們真的不知道因為沒有調查到那麼那跟針對過去這個部分怎麼辦有很多人現在還在可能還創傷甚至是當初開記者會的時候就是有女性醫師寫出她整個經歷歷歷在目 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12992.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13009.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以我想其實我也是用理性的方式在跟你們對話我覺得這應該是一個跨部會要痛定思痛包含說這個多身分別有沒有需要把這個法律的漏洞補齊然後以及校方內校方跟醫院這種我相信也不是只有台大是 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13009.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13034.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
對不對那這個部分是不是應該也要由這個台大來做一個典範不然當初這個所有的事情就讓真的是讓大家很震驚啊這些婦產科醫生看了多少的女性然後二十幾年來然後只有最近這些案子被人家曝光那二十幾年來有多少人是受害者不知道所以這個部分我希望這個是不是可以請不管是部長或是我們台大校方跟醫院我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13036.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13059.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這個主委你是照依法你覺得是依你的法依法行政去處理可是我相信您身為這個女性的醫生你一定很感同身受對我們其實對於受害者的學生我們有給他很清楚的比如說所有他們只要能夠願意來跟我們談我們都提供很多的隨時待命所以這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13060.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13084.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
這部分還要麻煩我們會再繼續努力另外吳院長我也要跟您說一下你剛剛有一直說就是大家給機會來把這件事情闡述清楚其實我覺得這一次是讓社會好好的審視到底發生了什麼事情所以今天的質詢很有意義但是吳院長你剛剛說這個絕對沒有受這個壓力其實我要告訴你當初的報導不是指你們有受到壓力其實是台大校方說校長有受到壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13085.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13102.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
這是台大校方可是校長沒有來但是當然其實我上次質詢也說校長挺住了壓力所以才讓這件事情爆出來也沒有因此不讓他就是讓他就是去退休這我我是認同的但是因為就是有背後到底什麼壓力存在這個校長沒來根本不清楚所以我要告訴院長是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13103.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13132.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以這個到底是有沒有人有沒有什麼問題沒關係你不用回答因為這個問題不是在你身上不過我是回答剛才廖委員提到的我們之後我想會不會預防生理治療其實在這件事情調查的當中我們就已經在很多的醫務行政會議甚至我們在主治醫師座談會我們都有宣傳這個性騷髮甚至我們請了王立榮這個專家來跟所有的人講 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13133.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13151.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以这一方面我们是希望可以预防肾疫治疗还有管道的安全性因为你们管道要让受害人要有信任可以去申诉因为医界可能很多人觉得圈圈小有一些权威性真的是在医界权威度非常高根本不敢讲 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13151.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13181.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
對不對那你要怎麼樣去做到這個透明又保障讓他們所謂的透明不是就是對他來講他是不會被其他這些加害者的周遭的人去通風報信的這個狀況我要請這個院長和我們的高副院長是不是在這部分繼續努力還有文化上面這個職場的整個制度的問題是不是要再拜託你們成為再次成為台灣在這部分的標杆因為我想真的不會是只有存在在所謂台大的體系裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13181.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13206.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
我們有決心一定會把它做好而且我們一定會做好保障我們也在院方的層次裡面事實上這些人包括以這次涉案科部的主任他是一直到4月才被調查小組約談他才知道他們科部有這種事情所以我們也就怕一開始就讓科部的主任知道的話就會影響這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13207.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13228.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
好那我們也順便講一下王祖密這個有人施壓或什麼的請你們不要害怕該做的就要做不知道有沒有因為校長也沒來嘛本來想問的大家也沒來那沒關係你不用回答因為你也沒辦法帶他回答誰知道對不對也沒有辦法調查嘛也沒有什麼也沒辦法徵竊聽或什麼都沒有辦法所以我只是要提醒的就是說針對這種事情就應該要勇敢的去承擔勇敢的去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13232.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13245.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那這次當然你們也並沒有受到什麼所謂的壓力就改變了你們的決策但是這部分要請你們也盡速處理那謝謝我們台大校方院方還有衛福部長也可以先回座我問一下勞動部長好像時間不太夠一分鐘我先問一下好我直接跳好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13255.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13272.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我想要問一下部長有關身心障礙者的權益保障法因為上一屆在審議時因為內容不周全就遭到障礙團體的抗議然而在去年5月障礙團體也已經達成共識也召開記者會希望盡速的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13273.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13294.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
然後截至到第十屆結束的時候到現在還沒有排審那第十一屆剛開始的時候其實前行政院長陳建仁也承諾說520前要這個送交草案但現在已經到年底了請問卡關的原因是什麼為什麼沒有送版本到立法院來根本說沒有申請人法的主責是衛福部講錯了衛福部對OK |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13302.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13320.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
非常感謝廖委員對於本案的關心我跟博鮑委員我們現在其實部內已經我們已經做完相關的一個修訂那我們現在目前已經送到院那邊我們現在目前我想我們的法規會我想廖委員您非常關心的就是說其實最重要可能是有關自立生活這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13321.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13336.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
智力生活這邊我們現在目前也已經有相關的一個的一個延命那這個部分我想其實院長他也非常非常關心我們的整個智力生活這邊我們的相關的一些的一些規範這個部分我是不是也請主席所以大概什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13338.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13364.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
報告委員我們大概現在開完部內的法規會之後我們1月底因為還遇到過年所以可能會是2月的時候上旬的時候會送到行政院這邊那行政院也承諾說會盡快來召開法規的一個審查那我們希望說可以盡快來完成相關的程序所以剛剛你有提到我們次長有提到說就是個人制度協助制度沒有入法上次的那這一次呢這一次會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13365.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13381.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
我們有研擬了大概一個條文希望把這個部分來強調不要跟委員報告上一次之所以沒有辦法完全照某些團體的意思把它入法的原因是團體之間有兩派的做法因為其他的團體非常多的團體認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13383.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13405.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
心理重建 生活重建等等跟自力生活是相同重要的他們不答應說單獨的列一條所以我們做了很多工作在兩邊很多團體之間的協調那最後 最近可能這個協調比較完成了好 那所以希望你們儘速將這個版本送到立法院來好不好因為已經拖了蠻久而且也超過了之前陳建仁院長說的時間好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13410.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13415.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請黃秀芳召委執行謝謝主席 我們請衛福部還有我們勞動部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13431.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13458.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
兩位部長好我先就叫我們兩位部長就是我們上禮拜五立法院通過這個就業服務法第46條的修正草案已經通過了那其實民間團體有一些疑慮也有一些擔心就是說這個就服法通過之後可能會有一些搶工的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說衛福部跟勞動部你們針對這一部分有沒有什麼樣的配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13465.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13489.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
這個先跟黃委員說明確實現在搶工的衝擊是我們現在所擔憂的那我們接下來會跟衛福部那一起我想跨部會的來研擬降低衝擊的做法那看怎麼樣子來我覺得來保障尤其重症家庭他這個聘僱移工的權利但是確實這裡面還涉及幾個部分我想等一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13489.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13501.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
也許衛福部也涉及到對整個長照體系的衝擊是那可是我想我們會來有跨部會的研議可是我還是要必須先說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13503.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13531.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
目前的這個修法的內容他確實如果需求端如果快速的衝太快那這個供需失衡的狀況這是我們確實現在會擔憂的情況所以我們會很審慎的來降低衝擊可是如果供給跟需求的差異持續擴大我們還是會有擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13532.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13553.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
部長我想請教就是說如果未來的這個需求量增加嘛如果以目前來講的話我們每一年增加的這個外籍看護工大約是1萬人左右嘛那如果未來平均嘛那未來如果說80歲以上就是免巴釋量表可能會增加的將近 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13554.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13578.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
也許照這樣子聘僱率的話可能5萬到15萬這中間都有可能那如果說這樣子增加的這個需求那是不是有可能我們勞動部會再找這個外籍看護工的這個來源國或者是外籍看護工這個來源應該要再也這個人員應該也要增加不然你沒辦法有這樣的一個供應啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13579.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13603.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
跟委員報告我們一定會來找外交部那一起來跟我們的來源母國來討論可不可以再做這個引進人數的增加但這部分確實涉及到母國來源母國本身的量能因為每一個要來到臺灣的這個家庭看護工他其實是要在母國受訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13605.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13625.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
如果母國的授訓的能量沒有辦法提高的話你現在要把它的這個量拉高很有可能會讓授訓的品質其實也會跟著下降所以這裡面其實是存在著很多不是台灣政府我自己想要進多少就能進多少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13625.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13650 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
它跟母國在那邊的量能跟因素也有關係甚至也會涉及到我們其實跟其他國家之間的競爭可是確實相比於日韓日韓當然他們不是用家庭看護工的形式他們是機構的形式可是在機構形式目前他們開出來的薪資是超過台灣的可能超過台灣的兩倍所以我們在薪資上面的競爭力確實是比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13651.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13671.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
比較低的那種種的這些因素只是想要讓大家知道我們會努力去爭取能不能擴大進這個供給面的部分但這真的不是我們自己想進多少就能進多少它涉及到的因素跟不確定的因素真的很多這是為什麼我們現在很擔心的地方的來源主要在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13672.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13689.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
所以我希望就是說這個法已經通過那後續勞動部這邊的配套措施我覺得說你們要趕快定啦那另外就是說這個我們看到目前我們外籍移工81萬人那其中這個看護工大約是22.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13693.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13705.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
大約是這樣子那我們現在目前失聯的移工就有9萬多那其中這個看護工就失聯的這個看護工就有3萬多啦那一般的這個這個製造業就 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13707.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13724.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
也5萬多加起來還有其他零零總總加起來差不多9萬多左右的這個失言移工那我們現在擔心的就是說好那未來如果我們這個這個開始實施之後也許這些外籍看護工他可能也想要 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13725.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13750.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
就是選擇比較好照顧的這個案組所以我覺得說這方面一方面我們是擔心就是說這個外籍移工逃跑這個狀況會不會越來越嚴重那另外就是說來源國或者是這個看護這個外籍移工的這個來源我覺得應該也要更多元要不然我覺得可能沒辦法去因應未來的這個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13751.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13772.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
跟花園說明確實失聯移工其實他的原因有蠻多不同的原因但其中一個源頭的原因是因為比方說確實家庭看護工他跟現在產業移工之間的薪資的差距是比較大所以當這個不同類型的移工他的薪資差距大的狀況之下他會增加他會想要離開他現在現有工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13772.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13788.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
或提前離開的這樣的動機這也是為什麼我們其實在這個階段我們都必須來非常非常的小心在包括說移工的工作的權益人權也包括是他的薪資的部分要省省這有一個要跟國際上面對齊的國際的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13790.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13814.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那不然如果我們不把這個顧好的話其實這個這個他失聯的動機一直存在那這個整體試驗況你要靠後端來靠內政部的專情隊來來抓來處理還是非常有其實那個其實都難度都很高對好那我們希望就是說呃這個呃就服務法46條已經通過那我們希望說你們的配套可能要盡快出來然後就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13815.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13830.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
因應未來的這個需要的這個供需我覺得應該要平衡可是我覺得如果未來的這個需求量大增的話可能會有這個搶工的這個狀況所以我覺得你們要怎麼去配套我覺得你們應該要趕快去因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13832.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13837.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
好謝謝那接下來我請這個邱部長就是說這個舊輔法46條通過之後那我剛剛有提到就是說也許會有這個搶攻的這個狀況那可能會比較難照顧的這個案組可能會不會變成被遺棄的一群所以我想請教就是說部長未來針對這部分你們要怎麼去因應是我們這個的確 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13858.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13879.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
很自然的應該要擔心因為總是我們的老常常知道需要照顧的中中正的他的所好的精神會比較多啦所以如果那個太多人得到這個資格的時候第一個我們不需要那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13881.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13897.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
多照顧的他也是可以請到這種家庭照顧工那這個部分的確是很必須要去處理剛剛黃部長也提到我們會跨部會來做討論第二個在場這個其實我們也擔心另外一個長照的 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13898.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13919.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
其實長期照顧是希望負能盡量不要失能所以如果過去我們又希望很多的老人家能夠盡量出來還可以走出來的出來活動一對多的這樣的一個照顧模式當然人力也比較省那也可以多做社會的活動那如果他一對一會不會就變成說 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13921.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13935.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
一個國一個地方 不用太多自己的活動或者是跟社會的一個活動的必要性就稍微降低這是跟長照的一個方向會有點背道而馳 這也是我們未來要努力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13936.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13948.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
那我現在擔心的就是說一些比較中重症的這個案組可能會被遺棄因為總是外籍移工或看護工他可以選擇嘛那他應該也會選擇比較好照顧的 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13951.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13978.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
如果難照顧的話他應該也會不要所以我覺得如果說未來這個需求量大增那也許這些外籍看護工他可能會就選擇可能比較好照顧的所以我希望說衛福部針對這部分你們要有一些配套措施就是說這些有需求真的非常有需要聘這個外籍看護工的這些家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13979.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14005.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
那未來如果真的聘請不到的話那你們要怎麼去協助好這個我覺得你們應該有一些配套我們當然還有長照服務的一個模式另外就是我們要佈建更多的住宿型的機構來彌補這一塊的一個問題這樣子當然我們會再多元化來做配套的措施好那我希望說要盡快啦不論是衛福部或勞動部真的這一部分一些配套我覺得應該要盡快好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14009.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14015.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長那接著我們請王紅薇書記長謝謝主席我請勞動部部長衛福部部長以及台大醫院院長吳院長吳院長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14040.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14063.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
好兩位部長跟院長先延續一下剛剛黃秀芳委員所提到的事實上現在很多的中重度的這個家庭就已經搶不到工或者好不容易搶到工外籍的看護然後很快他們就移出了這個事實上我們已經召開多次的公聽會但是呢衛福部勞動部都沒有辦法幫他們解決所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14066.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14093.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
不要以這些問題然後現在意圖嫁禍在給長者說他可以免八十兩表他在搶工我要講這些問題現在就在存在那請問一下現在我們八十歲以上有免八十兩表嗎所以政府該做的事情不要把這個責任推給八十歲以上的長者好那我今天的重點是放在最近我們討論到 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14095.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14102.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
台大出現狼醫那我要特別說這個事情事實上之前經過媒體報導那麼後來我們在黨團也召開記者會然後希望台大醫院能夠提出說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14111.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14130.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
因為這個西教授事實上他又轉往其他的醫院繼續的去執業那當然這家醫院竟然對外說他不做內診一個婦科他不做內診不曉得他要做什麼所以大家覺得不可思議 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14131.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14155.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
但是呢現在看起來我們現在全國醫師全聯會去問台大台大才說確定他是有性騷而且呢會給予他處分可是問題是他原來就轉往其他醫院但是我們現在知道因為這事情被鬧大了所以呢在另外一家醫院才做了處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14157.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14183.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
事實上台大的狼醫也不是只有這一宗因為最近還發生也是一個負癌的教授涉嫌去下藥性侵了藥廠的女業務所以我要講的是台大醫院事實上是在國內幸運卓著但是一再的發生這樣的狼醫事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14183.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14211.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
而性騷之後呢又以種種理由不願意對外證實包含立法院我們去了解台大醫院也可以用很多理由說不予證實說這個怎麼會造成困擾吧啦啦一大堆所以我想請問一下衛福部跟台大醫院未來這些性騷事件調查你們有沒有一套能夠確立的SOP |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14212.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14235.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我們先請部長回答好嗎謝謝委員我想憲章就是依照憲憑三法去執行那當然縣市衛生局就會有等結果出來那個在縣市衛生局會有審議委員會如果他的嚴重度是到達可能要廢照這個部分那會送衛福部我想這一套是很完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14235.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14254.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
好這個SOP一定要建立起來不要每一個case他不一樣好因為呢他的後台不一樣而有不同的處理那另外因為我時間很有限我請問部長啊請問一下很多民團都要求衛福部應該比照而略好 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14255.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14266.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
如果狼師都可以在地方的教育局的網站上公布狼師那請問一下狼醫應不應該公布我想我這幾天都有針對這個問題的回答我們可以研議來建置平台來公布多久 研議多久今天有今天已經有答應那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14285.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14290.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
蘇貞昌委員 三個月 也就是在三月底之前嗎好 儘快好不好 還要搞三個月 非常久另外 讓我再多問一個問題 來請我們勞動部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14304.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14322.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
因为我们现在在公务机关里面不管是霸凌尤其最近霸凌事件那么大家并不相信公务机关内的处理那么所以已经有很多基层的公务部门的一些基层的团体他们有个呼声希望公务员能够适用职安法 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14323.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14325.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
也就是說如果他發生事件 他可以請 比如說他可以請縣市的勞動局來做處理 來做申訴 來做調查因為我們現在的公務體系 事實上是不被信任的所以在這個部分 請問一下部長 你對於他們的呼聲 你可以做研究嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14345.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14367.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
跟網友說明 確實現在在職安法裡面主要是針對一般的勞工的部分公務員其實他有套自己的公務的法規那這部分主管的部分其實是關考試院我們會來問其他的部位 但是就勞動部的立場從勞動部的立場來說 我們當然願意跟考試院一起來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14369.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14387.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
就是說包括確實比方說關於職場的不法侵害或者是未來的職場的霸凌的防治我們其實因為這個我們有包括像治安署那在這段時間其實也做了不少的這個專業上面的研擬就是說如果要在就我知道說好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14389.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14403.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
這個考試院這邊也想要做相關法規的修訂對 但他還是在他那個框架裡面那可是確實現在我說現在的法規法規現在是在那但我們很願意跟考試院一起來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14404.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14429.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
所以你這邊可以承諾你可以至少從勞動部的立場可以去跟考試院來做一個協商因為現在這種聲音越來越大我們把我們相關的專業讓考試院知道那我們是願意跟考試院來討論的好我希望說勞動部能夠也本與你們專業來呼應呼應這些基層公務員的聲音好不好好謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14436.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14439.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
那接下來我們請牛喜廷委員質詢謝謝主席喔,勞動部部長有請牛委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14454.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14481.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
這一樣剛剛雖然今天的主題當然是已經從公部門的霸凌事件往外擴散但我覺得本質上勞動部的這個問題不能就這麼算我們還是要方方面面來做一個檢討我今天要跟你討論的事情是剛剛其實王宏威委員其實有質詢到除了說適用職安法之外我們也要考量公部門這樣的特殊性然後針對特殊性的狀況去對症下藥才能夠系統性的解決這樣子的一個問題我今天想要跟你討論一下烤雞這個制度的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14482.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14510.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
2024年2月5號全序部推出公務員考積法修正案然後第7條的說明欄裡面有表示法律沒有明定考積等次人數比例實務上大概是75%是假等因此如果列了已等它就會被解讀成為表現比多數人差當然也會跟年終獎金等等有關本期認為考積制度是公務員霸凌事件裡面其中一個不太被重視但我認為其實是關鍵的因素因為公務員的升遷跟獎金其實跟他的考積都是密切相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14511.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14533.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
而烤雞制度某種層面來講它是一個不對等的權力結構基本上是主管向下評鑑所以如果你的上頭的長官掌握了烤雞的生殺大權的時候發生了這麼多奇奇怪怪的事情很多的基層公務員選擇沉默忍耐或者是逢迎拍馬其實大家就不那麼意外了以北分署霸凌事件為例這個謝宜榮面對部署 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14535.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14562.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
他本人的囂張跋扈那有直屬烤雞權的長官發展署署長蔡孟良對不對然後謝怡榮處理蔡孟良叫向上管理叫逢迎拍馬那當然嘛就航卸一氣然後讓真正基層那個最基層沒有辦法經營的被壓迫那常常會有這樣的一個狀況我講了這樣的一個事情你部長到目前為止你覺得烤雞會不會變相的成為公部門職場霸凌的這種幫兇或者是作案的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14563.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14575.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
因為確實考機的制度其實是在這個公園考機法裡面那這部分其實是在考試院的主管之下那當然勞動部當然我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14577.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14601.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
這樣我們也適用勞動部的公務員其實我們也當然適用考積法可是我其實並不敢說這個只要是打一等就一定是職場霸凌我沒有講說打一等是職場霸凌是說考積這件事情是讓很多基層公務員有冤屈不敢主動去講他變相成為了助長霸凌的一個催化劑一個因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14601.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14615.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我的問題是這樣的所以其實我現在講的可能也不是只是公務員就是說其實業在很多職場都有相關的考級跟平和或平和的制度這是跟每一個事業單位他的管理的制度有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14616.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14633.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
你回答問題就好了嘛就是說這件事情會不會間接的會去助長霸凌或者是讓受害人有志難生會不會嘛有沒有這樣的可能啦我覺得應該是要從怎麼保障受害的人他的發聲或申訴要完全的保證跟保護他的這個角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14634.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14652.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
但我不能說只要這樣講下去的話變成說只要有相關的管理制度上對下的管理制度都可能會變成間接因素這樣這個推論我覺得就會推太大會推太多了推太多了沒關係本期一週前我曾經請勞動部提供勞力發展署相關人的考積列表 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14653.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14667.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
結果勞動部是怎麼回應呢說這個是個人隱私我們還是別提供為好這個今天這件事情很有可能跟這802有間接相關所以說我認為這個是不單單只有隱私的問題部長你知道謝宜榮當2023的考金是什麼等級嗎你會不會好奇然後想去研究一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14672.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14701.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
我不知道但是因為確實烤雞真的是涉及個人隱私你是不知道還是不想知道不是我今天提了這個問題之後你會不會想要去了解一下你說謝宜榮嗎對我可以了解一下但是我剛剛回應的事情是說因為我原來跟我們索取這個烤雞的部分又是個資法嘛這個很常見沒關係因為這真的是涉及到這部分但我就想問部長你會不會想要去了解一下不管是謝宜榮也好蔡夢良也好他們這些人的烤雞是什麼狀況我可以來了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14702.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14732.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
我認為你應該了解因為2023年我實在是2023年除了這個事件發生就讓這個基層公務員痛不欲生之外這個2023年的離退人數還是往年的兩倍就各方各面來講頂頭長官在管理這個部位的時候管理這個單位的時候把他搞成這樣就我們看到的資訊從2023的年初開始確實離任跟退職的人數是增加的你今天還沒有了解我知道但是如果他這樣子的狀況還打夾等你覺得公平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14734.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14751.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我們可能要來了解一下原因是什麼這就是本席為什麼今天講說為什麼我想要去了解我要去調這個考機的資料原因當然你今天可以講說因為個資的關係所以我們就不便提供一大堆這樣有的沒的但是他講的對不起但是我要問的就是你至少作為部長我希望你去了解一下這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14752.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14769.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
現在事後被認定成為霸凌的兇手這一群人他們的烤雞是什麼而且不只是他們的烤雞啊在這個就業安定基金的不當支出裡面鄭豐志主任的烤雞是什麼對不對人事調動率大幅上升人事室的烤雞是什麼我希望烤雞制度要回歸正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14769.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14793.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
因為公部門的文化其實大家都清楚有的是輪流啦有的是怎麼樣然後有些就被不當濫用這是機制要檢討當然也不是純粹就是你們勞動部要檢討因為你剛剛講嘛這是考試院主管這當然是另外一個層面的問題但我希望部長你在了解這樣的公部門霸凌案的時候除了這些機制的完善之外比如說保護吹哨者我不要讓他被清算這是你剛剛想要強調的重點這本席完全理解我自己覺得可能要從這個角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14794.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14822.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
我今天提這個質詢的用意就是提醒你啊考機很有可能是變相助長這件事情的幫兇請你針對勞動部其他部位我認為也一樣但今天是因為這是未還委員會的質詢嘛請你針對勞動部的這個考機的部分來做一個徹底的改革跟了解先了解會不會在明明施政荒鄉走板的情況下考機還是因為傳統也好或是因為奇怪的壓力或者是關係也好並沒有辦法如實顯現考機制度的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14823.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14844.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我當然希望考機跟他同仁失職的表現之間是有很明確的對應我給你一點時間但我希望你去了解之後你能夠有一個報告回復立法院一個報告這些人的考機狀況到底是怎麼樣你的這樣子的一個制度的方案有沒有改善跟精進的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14844.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14866.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
我先來了解剛剛委員講的這幾位他的這個考積的狀況因為萬一這些人做了這麼誇張的事情還是打假等本席強烈主張你應該摧毀他們的年終獎金這樣這才是各個各個部門各個單位用強而有力的方式來整治這件事情才能彰顯政府打擊霸凌的決心啦好我給部長一點時間了解好不好麻煩部長儘速提供相關的資料回覆可以嗎謝謝好辛苦了謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14869.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14881.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
來 我們跟大家委員會報告齁因為劉建國委員希望他質詢完再休息阿爸肚子餓的人先去便當吃沒關係來謝謝趙偉英明 趙偉辛苦我們先請來公布肚子餓的可以拿便當來吃啦沒有 可以用餐啦 可以用餐啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14897.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14913.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
我針對就只有那幾個而已嘛其他人不需要壓力那第一位就洪部長有請謝謝部長2024最後一天立法院三途通過就業扶法第46條然後80歲以上就免80亮表就可以聘僱這個外籍移工我們怎麼應應怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14918.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14941.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我們會來跟衛福部一起來研商第一個我覺得最優先的事情怎麼來盡力的幫助重症的家庭然後要降低衝擊或怎麼讓他們聘僱的權利可以再更優先不要被搶攻的狀況之下反而逆向選擇的被犧牲所以你提到就是有搶攻的這樣的一個衝擊對不對然後可能會衝擊到更弱勢的然後可能他的身體的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14945.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14974.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
更加的嚴峻的需要有人專責照顧的情況之下這樣的一個情勢好像已經無法避免了我們非常非常擔心所以當時在修法前中華民國家庭照顧者官外總會還有包含這些身陷障礙者聯盟臺灣社會福利總盟都提出擔憂這樣讓完修法恐怕引起陳農部長所講的搶工潮然後都主張應該有相關配套所以這個配套要多久才可以做出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14976.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14990.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
不只這樣 我再講下去還有台灣的國際勞工協會桃園市家庭康復工職業公會及婦女薪資協會等團體他們都認為在沒有配套的情況下茂蘭修瓦只會惡化對於移工人權的侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14991.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
15004.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
這是為什麼我們其實在修法前一直很嚴肅的希望立法院可以在這個在這個事情上面多做一些專業的研議因為剛剛六位人講的其實這都是這方面的專業的組織專業的機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
15006.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
15022.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
那天希望說我還是有上台去在大體討論還有包含那個條文的花園我都有講啦我也希望說希望提案的委員還有包含支持這個80歲以上免八十兩表的各位同仁都可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
15023.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
15047.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
細心的在慎重去思考一下這樣的衝擊台灣是一個講人權的國家當每年的這樣的需求已經供不應求的情況之下然後這樣造成這麼大的衝擊政府有沒有辦法第一個時間去做相關的因應反而不是現在在指責說這法通過之後你政府就必須要去承擔起來就馬上去做處理但是現在沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
15048.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
15074.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
牧羽成舟嘛那牧羽成舟的時候可能你們要用最快速度來看要怎麼去做這樣因應嘛那我這邊提了幾個部分啦齁剛剛部長所講的搶工潮那移工到底會不會大量的轉移到健康的群組然後這個重度的重度伸張的弱勢群組的權利你們要如何去做保障這是第一件嘛齁然後再來國際上日本的日本的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
15074.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
15100.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
薪資大約從4萬起跳了韓國是3萬多嘛韓國業其實也應該是超過4萬超過4萬那我們今年基本工資28590不到3萬但是我們的家庭看護公司不是用基本工資的所以他是在目前平均大概2萬2對啊就比這個更低啦即便用基本工資我們還是跟不上日本跟韓國我是用這樣的比喻嘛對不對好那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
15101.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
15120.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
我們如何招募到有意願來到臺灣的這個工作的移工我們當然會跟外交部那一起來跟來源母國來協商有沒有可能可以增加供給可是這個增加供給的部分確實涉及到來源母國本身的量能尤其是他的訓練量能因為每一個要來到臺灣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
15122.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
15142.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
家庭看護工都要經過來源母國的訓練所以如果來源母國他的量沒辦法增加的話你硬要他把他的這個供給到台灣的量大幅增加的話他其實也會影響到他自己訓練的品質甚至有訓練品質下降的話也會影響到他來台灣的時候照顧我們這些需要照顧家庭的照顧品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
15143.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15161.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
我知道現在已經沒辦法了我記得一年我們可以這幾年我們講五年就好了這幾年平均就是台灣有提出這個外籍看護工的需求差不多是多少然後我們可以引進多少進來我們目前每年競爭價大概是一萬二一萬三 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15162.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15176.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
這個是可以供給的增加的一萬二、一萬三其實跟委員說明其實現在當然就已經存在需求是大於可供給增加的數就已經呈現這狀況落差多少這個實質的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15179.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15208.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
就是一年大致上有多少人提出要這個外企康復工的這樣的一個數額應該你們都有統計有掌握才對啊向委員報告那個每年新聘沒有來過台灣的家庭康復工一年大概有五萬那所以再加上淨增加至少要再增加一萬所以那加起來至少要有六萬每年要新移進那因為新法通過之後這個數字還要再往上再疊加對提加要加多少你們評估起來要加多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15209.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15226.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
跟個人說明現在我們大概在評估的方法是這樣因為我們如果以這些失能的失能的長者的狀況來看的話大概三成是用家庭看護工兩成是用長照加起來大概五成 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15227.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15250.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
所以如果我們這樣去評估的話我們認為這些可能相對健康的長者他可能的需求可能是在兩成到三成之間所以算起來變成是53萬人因為這一次的修法後等於會馬上開放53萬人53萬健康的長者有資格可以申請所以我們才會推估說那大概兩成到三成 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15251.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15279.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
的需求可能會 兩層到三層就十來萬到十六萬左右對 十來萬到十六萬那你原本就已經供不應求了你現在又多增加這樣十幾萬的需求那就是會搶供嘛對 所以就是我們現在擔心我們現在擔心的事情就是原本就已經緊繃而且本來就有一些重症的家庭他現在要找就難度就比較大或有點困擾了但在這個修法之後這個現象又會再更加劇對 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15282.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15301.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
對,那移工也會不會,他原本在這邊已經兩三年在顧好他應顧的這個僱主的情況之下,但是因為他顧的可能就,就是負了長照的這樣的需求者,長期身體心理自己沒辦法治理的,簡單講啦齁,然後他看到也健康有健康的,他能不能馬上去總管僱主? |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15302.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15328.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
基本上當然他會有些可能會要求轉換但是這個當然涉及到其實契約的部分所以這是為什麼我們說其實對這重症的家庭來說可能更不容易留住契約契約就可以保障他不去轉換雇主嗎他會不會有一些事情就有一些衝突就有一些怎麼樣的一個情況去掌握的情況他就要求轉換雇主那你又不得不讓他轉換這樣的事情你們評估過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15332.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15357.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
這有在我們的擔憂裡面我的時間有限啦部長我這邊有三個衝擊的評估報告我希望你們可能要很快的速度來做出來然後提交給委員會來做參考好不好123剛剛都特別提到了大山匯成這個樣子請部長一個星期可不可以這個也不能拖我們會很快來做可是一個星期真的很太短兩個星期 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15358.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15386.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
可不可以給我們一個月你的速度應該是兩個星期就OK了再加一個星期給你好不好可不可以給我們一個月好了一個月好請回好謝謝你要趕快應應的啦好不好我們其實會非常審慎的盡速來應應可是因為這涉及到跨部會對不起好請回啦來再一步我們有吳司長還有人事處的陳專委還有國簽署的薛專委請問這個司長今天有看過這個那我們稍微排這個主題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15387.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15412.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
有嘛你知道這一波的公部門霸凌案除了勞動部勞化署第二部門就是你們海洋國立海洋生物博物館對不對國際博物館好那我真的看你們報告看不出你們友善職場是在什麼地方我請教一下市長知道什麼叫員工協助方案嗎知道知道嗎對那你們怎麼編你清楚吧你說預算嗎對這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15415.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15434.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
預算你們人事處應該要非常清楚所以你們把人事處的陳專委找的是正確的這邊回覆委員因為我們那個就是有關員工學術方案我們教育部本身是每年都有編列相關的預算那預算差不多就是大概落在40到50萬中間是不是這樣你看一下這個明細表是不是這樣教育部50體育署14清華署4國家圖書館3國家教育研究院21萬對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15444.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15448.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我就不是要贅述了嘛 是不是這樣你們這一部所屬的相關的單位就是這麼編嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15450.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15476.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
所屬單位的部分這邊我比較沒有辦法直接做確認那不過就是說因為基本上來講所謂那個就是有關員工協助方案的那個經費就是來自於就是說一方面就是編列相關的預算一方面就是在現有的預算裡面去做運資跟調配那這邊先跟委員做個說明謝謝好所以你沒把我掌握嘛那我就提醒市長跟你做參考你們花生霸凌的那個單位就是沒有編 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15478.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15487.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
你們不只那個單位叫國立海洋生物博物館沒有編你們還有一大堆都沒有編國監署國立自然科學博物館國立科學工藝博物館國立台灣圖書館當還十幾個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15491.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15517.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
已經發生這樣的事情的你們在114年度的預算裡面竟然沒有呈現出來我兩年前從總統我到五院還有各部會我都特別要求如果你們員工協助方案沒有辦法編出來很抱歉在總預算最後協商過程裡面我會針對各個機關我會要求院長來做看怎麼處置我絕對不會不能夠去理解說教育部到現在還不曉得這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15518.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15541.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
我沒有辦法理解這邊跟委員做個說明就是說因為相關的預算就是說基本上來講確實就是說因為是由各單位來編列然後陳如委員所看到的就是說他們應該是說有關員工協助方案有些是有那個編列專款來運用有些是用自己單位內的業務費來使用倒不是說是沒有那如果說這些相關的資料所以你們還是在還是在兩年前三年前的那種模式有編就好不一定要呈現這個科目出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15547.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15557.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
所以藏在什麼地方,放在什麼地方,有編就好嘛,對不對?你問外務部跟勞動部,看他們敢不敢這樣編嘛,你自己問看嘛你自己問看嘛,你問司範醫,你去問行政醫,你去問你範醫看這樣編嗎?每逢你教學部這樣編就對了,最好教育示範 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15570.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15593.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
你今天在報告中還針對教師法33條均與建立教師諮商輔導支持體系大家針對教師啦專任的啦代理的啦公立幼兒園教保人員學校校長滿足教師抒壓減壓等等提升這個學生受教的品質那國教署有同仁了國教署不用編其他的這個管中心國家運動科學中心不用編 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15595.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15618.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
藝術 台灣藝術教育館不用編然後放在 散落到其他的科目裡面我們怎麼去檢視我們怎麼知道你對你的同仁一個人可以動用幾次然後每一個人 每一個同仁到底是多少的一個額度可以去做員工協助方案你跟我講啊你叫我怎麼看因為時間的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15624.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15651.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
你可能沒辦法回答我嘛市長你是不是要帶回去跟部長講一下這事情在遇上協商的時候我絕對會處理我一定會出席好不好那我這邊特別拜託召委教育部這個報告可能要重寫吧一周內重新提交好謝謝請回最後一個請邱部長部長元旦第一天據媒體報導去年醫學中心疲倦的結果不知欲出為不預計近期公告這個報導確實吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15654.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15682.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
沒有錯吧已經在跑程序了已經在跑程序所以即將公告了對不對好但是每次提到醫學中心我本期都感到非常的難過如果依照這個分區的業務劃分部長可以看嗎這六區台北區最多的嘛13這個整體加起來其他五區加起來都還沒有台北區的大萬一台灣發生了重要狀況的時候是在北部可能醫學中心台北區的醫學中心都動盪不得的情況之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15683.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15699.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
重症及重症的人要怎麼處置這是一個資源分配的不當的情況史然然後我的母鄉雲林被劃在藍區那藍區兩個都在台南縣市然後對雲家家而言實在是 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15701.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15720.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
那種趕扣應該因為部長曾經到台大雲乳豐厭那個整個是基礎算是你打下來的你應該非常清楚整個車程、軸距、黃金治療救援時間基本上我們都要比人家長所以我們那個另外一面叫做黃金治療搶救時間我們就不叫黃金了,我們叫白銀了所以要怎麼處理要怎麼處理讓像賴總統所講的均衡嘛資源要均衡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15731.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15759.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
這個資源均衡的情況之下有沒有思考到我們台大雲林分院我們是兩個分院一個斗六一個湖北然後未來在已經有合定111億的機會給台大湖北分院來擴建現在是因為這個這個財政收支換物只管收不管吃會不會有相關的排擠會不會有所謂的延後那不管如何我們還是終極到努力一定在時間內要到位要讓它可以如期發包嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15760.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15762.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
那雲林有沒有這個機會 台大印度分院 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15764.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15792.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我想非常感謝劉委員過去對雲林的醫療資源真的是用盡了苦心那特別在台大雲林分院帶領之下所有的院所其實都增加了很多的醫療資源那台大雲林分院兩個從德六院區到湖北院區尤其是不管是在燙傷的加護病房也是劉委員爭取的那這個醫療大樓 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15793.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15815.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
也是爭取的,而且他旁邊還有一個高齡醫學...佛教席高齡醫學暨健康物質研究中心這個也是,這真的是...謝謝部長的肯定,還有惡劣啦齁這些整個來講,還有裡面的宿主,台大以前...台大分英文在比較早期的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15817.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15846.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
人力比較不足現在的人力各方面都非常的充實所以真的是可以擔當引領的一個非常醫療的守護神謝謝部長感動了部長你可以看這個表格你看完之後我不曉得你會不會再感動全台醫學中心分布一個台北區一個台北區總統等於五區加起來都不及一個台北區因為過去的這種資源的分配已經出了很嚴重的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15847.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15857.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
真的有勞你要當部長的時候可以快速的改善這樣的一個資源分配的不公平嘛台北區是13欸其他五區加起來是12欸這是很奇怪的分佈就對了我也不知道以前的補充到底是什麼做到這麼不讓人感動所以拜託國務隊你做來讓人感動一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15869.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15890.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
這個是長久以來一直在台北區一直大掩蓋然後早期就一直通過醫學中心所以變成這樣子我們當然要顧及到其他醫學中心比較少的地方他們人民的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15892.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15911.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
需求跟希望還有就是他們的服務員遼闊如果以原來的兩百萬一家的話其實當然這裡是也超過了早就超過了 早就超過了人口比例也都不應該是如此是不是說我們應該整體性來考量 當然我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15913.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15938.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
醫院的評鑑制度的一個改革小組也是明年會開始來啟動但是醫學中心是四年評估一次評鑑一次立委也是四年選一次總統也是四年選一次但是沒有每一次都能夠選得上也不一定都一定可以連任所以我特別拜託部長我們沒有這麼多四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15939.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15967.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
是不是就趁這一次這個南區的雲林嘉義縣雲嘉嘉這三個縣市都沒有的到現在都沒有連一個準醫學中心都沒有所以賴總統講的均衡台灣拜託這一次我們就把它實際上應用吧讓醫學中心可以在南區裡面讓這三個縣市有一所醫學中心我想我這樣要求不為過 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15970.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15976.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
因為醫檢中心去年增加兩家那監察院又移植 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15979.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
16002.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
他對那個地方在增加監察院有意見我們要鼓掌說肯定監察院啊但是對這個地方對藍區這個地方增加我想監察院不至於有什麼意見吧因為我們等太久了我們等了四年四年四年已經等了N年以上了嘛N次以上了代表部長好不好謝謝部長努力啦支持七月份的時候你有下去全台大的很多的朋友對你 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
16003.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
16016.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
抱著非常高的期待我也一樣 全雲林人 嘉義縣人 嘉義市人你也是自己人 拜託謝謝希望做出雲家家 你的故鄉的人有更多更大的感動謝謝部長 感動部長 部長感動謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
17299.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
17305.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會 變快一點啦來 繼續請黃國昌代主席謝謝主席 麻煩有請勞動部部長跟衛福部部長委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
17329.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
17348.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
先請教拜登路部長,審計部給我的報告,初步第一階段的報告差五年的完整的報告還要再給他一段時間,初步的報告給我的是說就業安定基金遭到不當奴用的大概五千多萬,目前追討的計畫跟進度出來沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
17349.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
17371.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
跟黃委員報告我們在12月底的時候收到審計部的報告是給我們一個月的時間回覆是所以是跟審計部在回覆跟釐清之後所以跟同仁說了如果在釐清之後是確實查有不法是或確認名目不符的話當然該啟動法定的作業程序什麼是法定的作業程序跟大家說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
17372.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
17396.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
因為其實到時候會是審計部來判斷到底是要那審計部初步的判斷不是出來了嗎不是 這還沒有他現在給你回覆的機會嗎他現在是把他覺得需要說明的項目所以給你們一個月的時間說明 對那如果一個月以後的說明你們的說明沒有辦法說服審計部的話錢是審計部負責追討還是你們自己要去要回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
17397.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
17408.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
應該是有勞動部那勞動部到時候等到你們回覆審計部之後審計部再判定出來的結果以後就我們的立場很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
17410.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
17432.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
所有被不當農用的錢每一分每一毫全部都要追回來那現在在你們回復審計部的程序當中我們尊重那請部長做好準備下個會期因為這個會期顯然是來不及下個會期開議的第一件事情我們就要看到被認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
17435.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
17457.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
不當挪用的錢追討的計畫跟進度可以嗎跟黃委員說明齁就是就像我剛剛前面說的會有一個跟審議部確認的過程剛講過的話不要再重複浪費我的時間該要啟動法定要追回的程序的我們就會去做這件事情沒有關係啊因為齁我們立法部門在監督的時候不少有當過委員嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
17458.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
17471.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
我們沒有辦法因為行政官員空洞的承諾就相信嘛所以我要有具體的東西嘛請你準備好 開議的時候這不是空洞的承諾開議的時候就會跟你要這個東西好 現在換衛福部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
17472.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
17501.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
來不早上一次你們衛福部做那個霸凌報告說要帶來給我看我看了以後我直接跟部長報告四個字叫做慘不忍睹慘不忍睹你口中所講的最高規格的調查從報告的內容報告的格式報告的結論我再跟部長報告四個字慘不忍睹什麼最高規格的調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
17502.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
17526.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
附件的部分可能會涉及到當事人的程序我先不論啦我看完整份報告了以後我心裡只有一個狐疑啊這個是要去特定誰誰都沒辦法特定啊這個會洩什麼密什麼密也都不會洩漏啊我一會洩漏的秘密是什麼我跟部長報告我一會洩漏的秘密就是衛福部的調查報告竟然做的如此之爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
17527.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
17548.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
這是我的結論這是我的結論部長你可能不同意我的結論所有的外服部做出來的報告啊超高規格非常詳細句細米疑論證清楚利潤證據充足但我看完了以後就不是這個樣子啦所以我只有簡單一個問題電話報告要不要公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
17553.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
17574.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
附件不用調查報告要不要公開 給我yes or no的答案就可以了報告委員那個委員非常感謝您的我想您也在Connea那邊嘛對不對量化質化這邊大家相關都已經做過相關研究我們這個調查報告就是Base在這個方法上面是有量化也有質化的Base的方法非常的粗糙內容非常的爛請你真正的問題回答調查報告要不要公告主席請你制止他 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
17580.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
17590.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
我在問問題的時候可以不要插嘴是不是可以請主席清楚的告訴列席的行政官員在未來委員會尋答的規矩是什麼他講話的時候時間不算部長調查報告要不要公開 YES OR NO 給我一個答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
17604.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
17619.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
我想非常感謝黃委員的指教,那我們今天其實也見過了再度的早上討論,也透過了互代的結議針對我們現在的一個大家覺得有指教的地方,我們會去做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
17624.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
17642.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
所以又給你們兩個月做檢討喔沒有關係啦 衛華委員會這邊所做的決議我尊重衛華委員會委員的決議啊那我清楚的跟部長講行政調查報告不公開一定會反映在台灣民眾黨黨團預算提案上 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
17644.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
17668.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
我這樣講很清楚了啦調查報告不公開一定會反映在台灣民眾黨黨團預算審查預算審查的內容之上我很清楚的跟部長表達了這樣子清楚的訴求那一天你們的署長拿報告來給我看我老實講我看了快吐血我看了快吐血我直接問他一個最直接的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
17670.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
17696.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
駐建方的部分有沒有深蹲執行官那天我在這邊問你你說你不是很清楚調查報告要看調查報告結果我看了調查報告一個字都沒提你們拿報告來給我看的同仁我請教他有沒有深蹲執行官這件事情他當場跟我回答是有那我的問題來了如果有為什麼調查報告半個字都沒有提 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
17697.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
17717.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
為什麼調查報告半個字都沒有提他跟我說啊這個齁是因為什麼後來才發現那不就符合您所講的如果有新事實新證據要重啟調查部長我有沒有講錯這個部分我們可以在下一次的報告裡面再來澄清再來釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
17719.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
17736.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
就這個部分吼就這個部分第一個啦我還是跟部長勸告報告我看完了啦復健的部分不用公開沒有關係啊你那個報告給全民公平啊看我今天黃國昌在這邊質詢台上面講說那個報告爛的不得了 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
17738.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
17754.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
這樣的評價到底是公平還是不公平你如果覺得我講的不公平 你就公開嘛然後我們一般的公民看了以後說 衛福部的報告寫得這麼好這麼詳細 句細米疑還符合你們剛剛什麼量 量化 質化 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
17756.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
17784.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
講一堆黃國昌的質詢一點道理都沒有人家衛福部做得這麼棒你竟然說人家調查報告根本不能看受傷的會是我啦不會是衛福部啦所以我還是給部長啊你回去慎重考慮啊看調查報告要不要公開我跟你保證啊你念完了以後不會有什麼個資被洩漏不會有什麼秘密被洩漏唯一會被洩漏的秘密啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
17785.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
17805.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
就是為什麼衛福部做的這個調查報告品質如此粗糙第二個事情有專業團體來跟我陳情他們陳情是什麼來來來部長這兩個英文名詞是什麼意思你知不知道我沒有要考你英文啦但是你應該很清楚你做過醫生 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
17810.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17827.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
謝委員,跟我補充一下,不算是也沒關係我們已經按照兩個禮拜前的衛環的決議,已經是所有的衛環的委員我們都有過去跟他們報告,我們都有經過這樣的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
17841.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
17859.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
這個比較一個是在technician的部分那一個可能會比較有一些多一點那個工作的內容那可能有一點點超越optician的那種工作內容這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
17862.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
17877.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
以這個之意我老實跟你講你應該很熟所以我才一開始說我就沒有要考你英文啦這個是煙光師啦他們來的陳情啦他們說國際社會上基本上都是用什麼都是用automatrists用這個詞那但是什麼啊但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
17883.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
17907.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
把其他國家都翻譯出來了但是你們衛福部我覺得是不是因為眼科醫師有壓力所以你們一直在英文的名稱上就只願意用optician不願意用optometrist他們要的是前面這個那為什麼他們要前面這個我後來仔細的看人家的訴求也合理其他國家全部都是用這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
17908.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
17932.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
那結果只有我們的什麼驗光能源法在驗光能源法裡面的驗光師用aptition但是我進一步的去看說你們自己衛福部的統計年報也不是用aptition啊還是用optometrist的這個詞我們的總統、副總統給人家的賀電也是用optometrist |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
17933.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
17946.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
那我就覺得很奇怪人家現在因為這個英文訴求的事情跟整個國際上面的交流都產生了障礙這個事情應該他們都有跟衛福部澄清嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
17947.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
17972.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那你是有眼科醫師的壓力是嗎沒有我們完全沒有因為我當維護部以後才注意到這個現在這個事情有結論了嗎還是要再研議完全在專業他們1月3號我好容易溝通他們1月3號眼科醫學會跟燕光師大家坐下來談嗎坐下來談在中興醫院坐下來因為2019年在過那個燕光師法的時候那是我第一次在立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
17973.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
17986.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
眼科醫師有眼科醫師的看法然後驗光師有他們的看法那個時候我還記得青島東路的時候來了一大堆非常年輕的那個驗光師還有相關科系的學生來陳情 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
17988.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
18008.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
那個時候我們大家都有去去聲援他們的訴求那眼科醫師的考慮我們了解如果牽涉到醫療專業那當然是眼科醫師的專業範圍嘛那但是有關於眼光師他們所提出來的訴求看其他國家所用的英文專業名詞看起來也沒有不當 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
18009.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
18032.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
我們自己的總統 副總統都這樣發賀電給人家了你總不要說要搞到好像蔡英文跟賴清德發賀電給人家說一套自己背地裡面又幹另外一套這樣子不好啦這樣不好啦 我希望123號的時候我們希望兩兆能夠真的取得一個比較好的專業我希望不只要發揮你調和定賴調和定賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
18038.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
18064.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
好該怎麼講全力以赴全力以赴調和敵人的功力啦讓兩邊的專業團體不要這樣子出現了一些我覺得啦是沒有太必要的爭執眼科醫師當然是眼科醫師嘛驗光師就是驗光師嘛也不會有人把這兩件事情牽涉到業務是啦但是業務的分配其實是在中文的法規去做分配嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
18065.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
18083.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
不會有人用那個英文單字來決定業務要怎麼分配啦我們在相關的法規裡面 醫事法規裡面什麼事情燕光是可以幹什麼事情只有眼科醫師可以幹 中文法規很清楚不要為了一個英文的單字不要為了英文的單字搞成這個樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長那繼續我們請陳冠廷委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
18101.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
18102.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
所詮好我們請衛福部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
18111.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
18134.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
委員好部長好部長好我現在是要針對新的這個財化法它之後可能會影響到我們衛福部的哪一些的影響預算等等因為2024年底的時候我們嘉義縣主旗下一個非常重要的跟衛福相關跟老人長照相關的建設就是我們台中龍塚灣橋分院鹿滿長照中心那它是動土典禮 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
18135.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
18152.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
那這是一座由衛福部跟退福會合作興建的住宿型長照機構那你知道這個地方這個衛福部是負擔大概幾成嗎我跟部長說八成那退福會是負擔兩成 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
18153.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
18166.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
所以對我們嘉義人來說這個能夠照顧我們這個老年人能夠照顧我們銀髮族的重要的長照機構幾乎有10成都是由中央所挹注的 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
18167.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
18188.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
那我們不斷來講說財化法的影響如何如何地方可以增加多少錢但是對於我們嘉義這樣的偏鄉來說由中央挹注經費直接把所有縣市裡面最需要的做調配是非常重要的我現在只是拿竹崎當一個例子第二個例子也是在嘉義縣中埔鄉有一個中埔榮興多功能社區式照顧園區 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
18190.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
18206.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
你知道我們跟衛福部爭取多少經費嗎四千多萬那四千多萬裡面已經接近九成的經費所以我再次在跟所有的民眾還有我們每一個關心我們財政劃分跟我們長照衛福的人來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
18207.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
18234.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
中央作為一個整體性的評估對最需要資源分配來去給予分配的是一個非常重要非常重要的一個做法所以一直以來有人說地方會因為財務法之後增加多少錢但是他們可能沒有想過在許多的重要的案子上面特別跟我們最弱勢的縣市跟最弱勢的族群來講的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
18235.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
18253.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
中央的藝術是極端重要的所以我現在想請教部長財務法通過之後會不會未來影響到這樣子的做法地方上面的規劃會不會受到影響如果有該怎麼辦才可以亡羊扑林一定有影響因為一個政策的擬定其實都要經過整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
18255.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
18282.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
國家級的一個很多整體的考量然後研究一個結果Evidence based來制定政策 健康政策那我想特別感謝陳委員在嘉義縣關心這些老人的照顧特別的地鐵 電波這兩個地方都很需要這個建設的這是怎麼來的 這一定是中央去評估整體評估 把資源用在刀口上這每一個決策 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
18283.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
18308.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
都是後面有多少專家做健康的評估數據怎麼樣做整個全國的醫療平權當然哪個地方需要我們就去補他我想這樣的一個佈置會比較周全性也會讓全國的人民得到更好的照顧所以剛剛委員爭取的這兩個地方真的是非常的to the point |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
18309.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
18313.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
這就是中央有這個領域來整個來評估評估來做這個事情所以未來如果中央這個經費比較少的時候我們是不可以落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
18320.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
18349.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
我們由國家的一個政策來佈置這個部分可能的確會受到影響那地方上我們也期待地方上能夠播出如果已經裁劃法過了就是播出應該能夠播出這樣的那個地方來補助地方但是這樣的一個比較可能從我們的立場來講會比較零散比較沒有辦法由中央來佈置讓在醫療的評審上面可能會比較需要擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
18350.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
18368.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
謝謝部長那我最後在因為時間已經到但是我最後再補充對於國家的整體的重視的政策我們最重要是長照政策那一個縣市他能夠規劃的通常就是區域性的那他可能沒有辦法吸引到全國的最多的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
18369.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
18383.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
來進入到最需要偏向的地方所以為什麼說中央的資源很重要就是因為它至少可以做一些分配上面來去彌補一個縣市可能沒有辦法獨自完成不可以自己完成的這些計畫所以這一次的財化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
18383.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
18409.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
他這個通過以後那對於地方的影響當然是甚大那我還是希望說至少在我能力的範圍內我一樣還是會盡量跟中央來全力爭取那現在我還是再跟大家報告一下跟所有的民眾也要講一下說國家的預算就是這麼多當你多出去一部分給地方那地方政府也要付出他相應的責任那我相信我們縣府一定會全力在照護老人的部分但是其他縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
18409.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
18431.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
如果他把這個照護這個我們老闆都要補婚來去分到其他的地方的話那可能就會影響我們希望說公共建設的費用放在公共建設老人福利的費用放在老人福利不要最後拿到經費放在放煙火或者是其他作為這種喜慶上面的節慶式上面的應用這樣就比較不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長那繼續我們請林黛華委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
18457.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
18458.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
好有請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
18463.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
18487.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
部長本席針對要爭取高頻膨第四座的醫療中心提升極重難悍的這個醫療量能那本席有幾個議題從人口分布來看南北醫療不均從地理分布看就醫資源不均從區域發展看醫療研究的需求從醫護培訓看醫療中心的必要進而在檢討你這個醫院 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
18490.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
18502.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
評鑑程序的過時性最後有本席的建議好從這個人口比例這個不能抖好從人口比例來看南北醫療不均從北部醫療中心超限成長被這個這個監察院糾正 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
18506.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
18523.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
衛福部明訂了台北區的上限為8家2024的時候憑藉你們超額甄列雙核醫院跟台北慈濟醫院使國內的醫療醫學中心更集中到台北地區光是看到這個我就覺得非常荒謬荒謬是糾正的時候你們做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
18523.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
18546.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
你們竟然還是 你應該撤銷啊但是你們沒有做 那表示人家要廢監察院監察院的糾正等於廢紙一張連參考的價值都沒有你衛福部做了什麼 什麼糾正 沒有啊就你們都怕得要命 說我怕為他監察院糾正結果你做了什麼 改善作為 沒有所以監察院被廢 被廢掉 差不多而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
18547.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
18570.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
糾正沒意義嘛 你該廢掉這兩個啊好 以醫院的這個評鑑的分區台北市每75.2萬人就有一間醫學中心如果我擴大台北市之外的這個北區桃竹苗則是9 稍微增加一下每90.1 95.1萬人有一間醫學中心那我高屏鵬 高雄加屏東喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
18573.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
18594.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
這個121.3萬才有一間醫學中心等同我每家的高頻醫學中心是要服務121萬人負擔是台北區的1.6萬倍人均享有醫療資源的品質是顯然不均的醫療中心過度集中中北部不僅擴大了南北醫療不均也讓新增的醫學中心與現有的醫療單位爭取在為數有限的醫護能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
18599.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
18622.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
影響我這個高屏地區的民眾醫療的品質而且這句話我一定要為高雄人講話高雄市民的平均移民才多少六度最低耶醫療資源平均的不平均已經造成我南部醫護工作負擔衛福部你必須重視這才是剛起點而已好那個下一頁你這個不能運作主席不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
18627.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
18628.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
那個停止一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
18632.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
18660.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
我們來看地理分佈來看這個就醫資源從桃竹苗圍北區的範圍今年的台大醫院的新竹分院甄列為醫學中心使全國的醫學中心在2024年突破為到22家其中一半以上22的一半就是11家11家12家全部都在北區跟台北區濁水西以南的醫學中心多少台南加高雄5家 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
18661.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
18673.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
好從地理面積高屏篷的面積是5931.86平方公里這個數字可以放過但是這個數字部長你看清楚我一枚高屏篷我還把蓬勃拉進來1977平方公里才有一間 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
18677.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
18706.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
醫學中心喔 台北市加新北喔它是平均每151公里就有一間的醫學中心喔你看光是就醫的便利性我高屏龍真的不是說小孩子可以來開水啊好 高屏龍跟雙北區的相比每平方公里所擁有的醫學中心的資源我們差這個跟台北啊我們差了13倍啊凸顯兩地的就醫資源的不均啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
18708.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
18731.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
再來我們看這個區域分布看醫療研究的需求醫學中心最適合發展智慧醫療因此有足夠的援援人員足夠多的臨床案例足夠大的社會聲譽與資通訊業者來合作今年5月你們這個由台灣智慧醫療聯盟建立的醫學中心的AI國家隊成員不好意思又在中北部的醫學中心了 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
18732.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18756.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
南部未來需要更多的場域才能有更多的研究量能賴總統提出了健康台灣的願景要強化醫療跟照護行政院要推動大南方的新矽谷計畫將在南部包括高頻縣市運用AI發展的健康照護跟智慧醫療因此在高頻棚有必要設置第四個醫學中心才能落實區域平衡接軌總統的產業政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18758.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18776.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
好 今天高屏空的醫學中心集中在高雄的西部所以在北高雄東高雄北屏東我總共十個行政區將近百萬人口我們是沒有醫學中心的耶我們的急重難 喊四大病症的醫療也需要提升吧好來 夏業這個不好意思 這個好 我們來看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18785.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18802.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
醫療培訓來看醫療中心的必要根據衛生部的醫學中心任務指標你看清楚喔講得多好聽啊這是看在我男部人的眼裡啊我真的是在吞不下這口氣了提升資源不足的地方的醫療水準提升資源不足喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18802.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18809.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
高平衡明顯是醫療資源不足的還強調這個醫學中心要帶動跟輔導區域內的醫療機構投入研究跟創新來培育醫事人員這是你們的指標我們看整個大南方六縣市雖然半導體跟AI的聚落但在區域的醫療資源卻是南北差異 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18823.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
18847.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
隨著科技人才移民南部以及高雄逐漸成為物流人流金流中心高屏區有必要設置第四個醫學中心才能吸引醫療跟生技人才經過地方發展跟醫療服務好根據醫師公會全聯會的統計喔台北市是每平方公里就有多少個醫生41.82新北市不好意思3位 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
18848.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
18854.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
我高雄更差每平方公里只有2.35位醫生屏東我們昭緯的更慘0.82位每平方公里只有0.82位醫生喔好我不是我我除了用面積我看人均台北市每1萬人就有43.67位的醫師喔我高雄每1萬人才有25.11位醫生屏東的每1萬人昭緯這個主席你看一下屏東啊1萬人才有14.51個醫師啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
18878.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
18892.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
中央應透過增額醫學中心強化我高頻繃的醫護的培訓的能量好 最後我們來看你這個醫院評鑑程序的過時性寫好一點叫過時性啦對本席來講叫荒謬性醫學中心的數量不應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
18893.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
18919.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
應該從人口數來考量從地理的分佈區域發展醫護的培訓的需求也應該一併考量好你們根據112年的醫院評鑑跟教學醫院的評鑑每200萬人口的評鑑一家醫學中心好按照你們這個標準台北區韓新北總人口數是752萬按照每200萬有一間你只能有3.76間的醫學中心你們搞到現在10間你們公然違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
18922.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
18928.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
然後平均呢還平均75.5萬人才有一間醫學中心你們規定是多少兩百萬人才能夠有一間你們擴增到這種地步現在是衛福部是太上皇了沒有在照規定了好再來你的醫學評鑑程序的附件六請部長拿起來看你們訂出了一級醫療區域醫學中心全國的上限是多少家 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
18950.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
18969.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
20家 好 我們就不要看全國上限齁 其中全國 是全國 北中南東喔才20家 你看你們現在暴增多家台北區就8家 高屏區3家事實上 台北區目前已經達到10家這個上限沒有法源 沒有依據而衛福部還可以在評鑑後 僅以 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
18971.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
18985.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
分數接近為由 自行在雙北增加遭到監察院檢舉之後傷害評鑑的公信力醫院評鑑的程序對於醫學中心數量的評定標準是過時的過時的辦法不僅未能考慮區域醫療均衡發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
18989.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
19010.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
且成為監委糾正的理由衛福部有必要檢討過時作業的程序納入更公允的指標好本席有建議好來本席的建議請這個你們在現在啊針對高頻膨的這個應該要針對第四間的醫療中心而且再請衛福部就針對人口地理面積國家發展的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
19012.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
19026.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
提升資源不足的地方的醫療目標考慮東高雄北高雄北平東等地的民眾需求提升該區域的這個醫療中心那針對這一次的本席的這個質詢我不曉得您有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
19028.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
19047.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
非常敬佩我們立委員提出這麼完整的我高雄人啊我南台灣人啊真的非常敬佩我們站在均衡台灣跟醫療平衡前的立場上當然資源不足的地方我們要優先去補然後針對你們現在即將公佈的醫學中心醫療中心也要怎麼處理一樣啦那整個高屏看起來是如果剛剛委員分析的其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
19059.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
19085.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
真的是不分析不知道一分析我都要跟你革命了一分析我都要跟你革命了所以我這邊先具體要求你們現在要公佈的高屏篷的第四間我是不能接受你們說你們再來納入研究然後我下一次我們基於要不要有第四間我下一次再處理我告訴你本席我是不能接受這件事情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
19086.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
19101.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
所以你現在要暫停你們現在的整個評鑑的所有的作業分數到這邊你不能給我公佈你們要從該很公允的去看我的區域的平衡如果你跟我講說你現在要公佈啊然後呢這個我的這個區域均衡的醫療的醫療權來講你要下次再檢討 我跟你拚得 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
19108.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
19117.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
我站在高雄的人 我把你扔掉所以你要暫停你現在的評鑑的一個發布的程序那部長你要怎麼做 請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
19120.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
19141.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
你們現在已經快公佈了嘛144已經有了嘛那你的公佈程序是什麼包括你看到本席的這樣的一個這麼明確我全部數字說話喔那你是不是應該暫停然後納入檢討之後你再去做到底全國應該要多少間的醫療中心那你再去做這個之後的公佈呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
19143.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
19152.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
我們一定會審慎評估好 審慎評估審慎評估要多久你要多久才檢討完然後多久要公布這兩個議題你可以把它掛鉤處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
19154.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
19173.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
你什麼時候公布你現在這一批的評鑑要不要有增列是不是有這個增列的這個醫療中心高雄好了高屏鵬你這一邊你要不要增加第四間的醫療中心這件事情你什麼時候要評估完成然後第二個你什麼時候要公布這一批次的這個醫療中心部長我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
19178.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
19205.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
能夠兩個禮拜之內把您委員提的這些建議那好好的來延期那因為這個公布也不能太也不能太慢啦因為所有這次接受評鑑的都在因應期盼嘛那那個也比較不管是在衛福部或健保署都有後續相關的作業要做所以時間也不能太久我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
19207.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
19210.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
你要介紹兩個禮拜這樣的一個評鑑標準是嗎部長評鑑標準其實已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
19216.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
19235.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
已經都已經本來就公告了平間標準有問題啊你要不要回覆到我的上一頁第七頁你說你們的多荒謬來看到第七頁部長你不覺得這樣的平間標準已經是很荒謬的事情嗎你們公然違法你們沒有法也沒有依據作業程序你自己說結果你又沒有按照自己講的這個內規執行你覺得這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
19239.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
19252.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
每200萬人得評一家醫學中心然後你的大台北 台北區 韓新北你已經10間了原則上你只能3.76間的醫學中心那我是不是應該撤掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
19253.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
19268.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
如果按照你這個標準都要撤掉啊還是你要重新的盤點你應該檢討你的這個作業你這兩個禮拜要應該重新檢討你的醫院這個醫院評鑑及醫教學醫院的評鑑的作業程序的這個作業標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
19270.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
19282.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
你兩個禮拜應該要檢討這件事情好 我們要檢討好 那這兩個禮拜之後 你再想說好 你要怎麼的去公布你這一批的這個醫學中心 好嗎好的 謝謝部長 謝謝也謝謝主席 給我這個為南台灣發聲 謝謝主席哇 林大華太棒了謝謝部長 接下來我們請王振旭委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
19302.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
19304.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
好謝謝主席啊我們還是請邱部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
19312.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
19341.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
委員好部長好謝謝今天我們這個召委鐵漢柔情啊這麼高興安排今天的題目我相信透過早上那麼多的委員的質詢也了解很多的事情真的要存償記憶的同時也應該有更好的方法或者是策略或者是步驟來解決目前面臨的一些困境不過一開始的時候我還是跟部長請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
19343.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
19365.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
才化法以後造成一些問題那其次也希望針對兒童健康的研究希望能夠為了未來不管是在施肢或者是在人力或者是在如何能夠保護兒童健康的部分有更好的發展那最後再來談一下這個公益私立醫院這些友善資產的建構的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
19367.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
19394.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我想財務法在最近通過以後雖然還沒有送出立法院可是造成的影響大家也討論的非常非常的多針對於我們在衛福部裡面看到的衝擊部長也有受訪過也提出了一些相關的觀點跟看法這邊也列出了當初部長所擔心的財務法通過以後他可能因為造成的這種衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
19396.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
19418.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
我們也了解28%的金額其實是非常非常的可觀那有包括兒童照顧不孕症補助等等包括第六項的社安網的部件範圍非常的廣那這部分不知道部長可不可以利用這個機會也再做一些說明讓大家可以更了解未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
19419.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
19434.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
如何因應才能通過以後這個六項當初所認定可能衝擊蠻大的這個部分利用這個機會讓部長能夠把它具體的說明清楚一點謝謝王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
19435.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
19459.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
你看在你隨行的當中,很多部門都上來,表示都有影響當然從我們開始在健保的挹注方面,其實我們有很多公務在幫忙,預算在幫忙健保如果這個部分,平均起來大概整個預算會少20%都可能要刪28% |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
19462.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
19486.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
那所以這樣來看不管是健保的挹注不管是國健署的相關的不管是癌症防治法然後成人預防保健甚至少子女化的對策人工生殖方面補治方面其實在國健署也有影響那在那個我們的社福方面那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
19487.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
19502.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
社安網第二期大概也會影響身心障礙照顧服務的部件總體收入、裝假牙等等等等還有應用高齡社會對策大概都單單政府方面大概就會少了107億 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
19505.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
19521.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
所以這樣的情況我們當然會希望爭取政府能夠繼續來支援這些民眾非常重要的事情但是如果財化法以後變成三千多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
19522.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
19536.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
混到地方區的時候那這個部分是我們比較擔心到時候在資源的爭取上面要怎麼樣來來爭取這樣子我現在這個是東央跟地方必須要同步共同來討論跟解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
19538.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
19553.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
就是有了好的這個裁員的同時也希望能夠把事情的分擔作為更合理的分配那這部分就麻煩未來面對這六大衝擊有關於衛福部的相關業務也希望部長能夠提早來應應 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
19555.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
19577.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
這是第一部分第二部分其實接著我們想要了解的就是長照3.0即將在今年度編的預算是921億要來做這個相關的醫療跟長照的銜接那這個銜接的部分我們很擔心今年能夠編這樣的費用再過來裁員的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
19580.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
19605.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
相較之下這個裁判法通過以後可能造成的衝擊未來是保險制好呢還是賦稅制比較有機會能夠持續的永續經營等等的問題真的也非常非常的需要衛福部這邊提早來規劃那不知道目前有沒有想法或者是初步的規劃的方向好 謝謝王委員我想在長照2.0邁向3.0當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
19608.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
19623.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
我們基本上服務的長照人數多了好幾倍以我們現在去年的收入大概有1200多億所以大概產業是相當的目前是相當的穩定的那所以未來要 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
19624.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19640.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
走向哪一個制度,當然大家都可以柴岩怎麼來,大家都可以來更加的討論以更穩定柴岩,我想這個長照是長久需要的我們的社府專家李次,有沒有什麼補充? |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
19642.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
19657.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
非常感謝黃正修委員對我們這個問題的關心我想其實我們現在目前我們現在目前當然是稅收那我也跟委員報告我們現在目前其實就整個政府現在目前的財源老實說長照基金的部分其實事實上是穩定在成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
19658.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19678.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
我們現在目前是不是沒有問題那當然就是說確實這兩種財務的處理方式我想都是各有利弊但是不管怎麼樣我想從過去蔡英文總統到賴清德總統最重要的一個事情就是說我們一定要讓我們的整個資源布置資源的這個部件必須是平均 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19679.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19698.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
而且是讓每一個人每一個國民都能夠享有應該有的服務的服務我舉一個最簡單的例子我們長照我們的健保1994年通過之前事實上也運用了大概快十幾年那時候部長還有您基本上還有看總召我們當時醫療網計畫都是在布建你不能夠你為了辦保險而辦保險你辦了保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19700.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19727.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
結果偏鄉卻沒有服務我想這個是這是不對的所以現在目前最重要還是資源部件而我們現在目前政府從2.0到3.0全部都是在全部在衝整個資源部件包括我想大家有非常關心的重症的部分那我跟委員報告兩個重點第一個我們現在目前的財源基本上是無餘另外第二個我們現在目前最重要重點應該是還是服務部件而且讓民眾找得到用得到看得到我想這是最重要的一個整個方式謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19728.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19753.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
好謝謝因為我們知道這個進入到這個超高齡社會以後相信這方面的需求會越來越多那再過來關心到的就是兒童剛剛我們關心的是私能的長者或者是需要做這份服務的長者那現在我們也了解兒童健康的是國家非常重要必須要積極來投入的因為我們少子化影響之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19754.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
19772.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
如何能夠讓這些兒童都能夠順利的健康成長那這邊有訂了一個硬指標硬指標就是兒童死亡率要從千分之五點三下降到四點零的千分之四點零那這個是一個很需要大家一起來努力的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
19774.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
19788.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
賴總統他對大家的期許也非常的高那我們也知道其實目前面臨的困境很多的同時那台大而一他們很希望能夠有更多的資源的投入也希望能夠透過研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
19789.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
19818.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
包括成立兒童健康研究中心來讓這樣的研究成果可以反映到實習的照顧的部分那這一邊當然就會牽扯到教育部牽扯到衛福部所以目前有沒有適當的規劃或者是目前除了教育部已經核可的這個兒醫的兒童健康研究中心的同時那未來有沒有機會讓它變成是一個重要的發展的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
19819.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
19839.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
好 謝謝王委員 這個大概會兩方面來談來報告第一個就是說兒童醫療是我們要重視的那所以在優化兒童醫療計畫裡面其實在台灣有大概幾乎所有的醫學中心裡面都有成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
19840.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
19859.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
等於是一個燈塔 等於是一個中心然後去建置所有的RE的不管是網絡 然後提升醫療品質特別是補充不足的 不管是急重症方面的那這個部分其實這幾天來也效果不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
19859.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
19886.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
那我們都知道我們在教學醫院裡面除了直接臨床的工作以外一定都要加上研究所以他在臨床加上研究的部分是可以在這個優化兒童醫療計畫裡面去做那我們如果要獨立成立一個兒童健康研究中心這就是專門要來做研究的今天當然行政院教育部合可 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
19887.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
19906.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
將支援部分經費那送到行政院那這個部分基本上如果是以研究方面應該是由國科會在主責因為衛福部的不管是醫事室或相關的單位基本上都是以醫療服務為重但是我們所以非常樂觀其成那畢竟 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
19908.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
19923.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
兒童的一個每一個兒童都是保他即使有罕見疾病有任何的疾病我們都應該來研究而且我們也知道像不管是籠總或很多醫院他們的罕病的那種研究是非常的國際級的 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
19925.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
19943.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
所以這個部分都是希望能夠透過這些研究來蒐集大數據如果能夠讓台灣的兒童能夠順利的成長對 因為我也知道這些臨床團隊在請研究的人其實都是自己在想辦法也很辛苦那因為台大所以應該給予更多的資助因為吳院長也在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
19946.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
19958.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
因為這些兒童醫院跟台大醫院不知道在歷史上有沒有關聯性那不曉得吳院長這邊有沒有什麼要再做補充我們院方事實上是很支持他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
19965.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
19991.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
設立這樣的研究中心而且我們用方一年給兒醫的事實上的補助其實是蠻多的因為我們都同意說沒有兒童就沒有未來那包括最近兒醫的人才其實全台灣都是不足現在那個假如政府給100個可能小兒科醫師可能照不到50個這已經是現在式 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
19992.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
20009.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
所以我們很期待包括教育部 衛護部當然台大醫院也都能夠順利的來讓這個兒童健康研究中心就是如果是台大有成立的話那變成是一個社會方面的領頭羊對於未來整個台灣兒童的照顧有更大的幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
20010.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
20026.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
那最後就是要跟部長請教有關你這個公立教學醫院面臨的這些性別平等如何做有效的機制的整合我想今天的主要大家關心的部分都很聚焦在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
20026.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
20054.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
那我們知道公立醫院尤其是教學醫院的醫師他同時擔任的教學研究還有服務三個重要的這些需求那在這個部分呢就會相對比較複雜如果一位醫師他同時擔任公務員的身份那他在這個過程裡面可能會造成對象的影響包括公務人員勞工病患學生和廠商等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
20055.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
20080.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
這個如何能夠讓他整合不同的這個受害對象的性平事件來進行調查跟救濟其實今天早上討論非常非常的多那甚至對於如果確立以後往後的這些相關的懲處措施的法源整合大家也都有不同的想法跟不同的法源依據那我們現在比較想要瞭解的就是那針對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
20081.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
20095.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
以這個西縣的教授所造成的這個影響他如果本身或者是相對未來的個案又可能是類似的背景的話那這個院長啊或者是台大 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
20096.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
20114.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
萬一又發生在剛剛所提到的台大的校園或者是醫院裡面那如何能夠讓在處理的時候可以是能夠用統合式的方式而不是說出現一個事件然後一個單位去進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
20115.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
20129.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
後來才發現原來一開始就應該要來統合式的整理那這部分不知道包括吳院長或者是王祖密這邊能不能提供相關的意見給未來做參考好請謝謝委員其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
20135.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
20158.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
我在醫院他主要是性騷法這是性平三法本來我們認為是定的非常好我們的立法院有這麼進步的法律門可是今天這個西信教授的案子是他是發生在醫院裡面雖然他有教師的身份可是我們的性平三法是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
20159.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
20185.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
這個事件發生的場域來規定有哪一個去調查那可是他假如有雙重身分的時候這個時候可能就需要因為法院上沒有規定譬如我們在性別騷擾法那裡我們就是完全依據他發生的場域可是這個人有雙重身分雖然場域是在醫院那是不是要馬上就報給學校因為我們還沒有調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
20187.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
20200.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
我們也只能先做調查完以後我們依職者再報給學校所以我想今天會讓大家這麼關心就是我本來以為性別三法訂的已經很好而且我們也從110年開始我們根據這個法我們已經處罰過在醫院裡面有申訴人有呈案的這些都有數據可以顯現可是今天這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
20211.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
20223.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
可能需要大家再去思考特別是這種跨身份雖然他發生的場域是在醫院但是他有教師的身份這個學生也不是學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
20225.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
20241.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
是 其實如果他是一個Resident他本身又在念研究所那萬一這個對象呢或者是這個相互的關係他又是指導老師可能就不只是在醫院而已就會爆發在大學裡面造成了這個影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
20242.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
20265.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
這個真的是相對複雜很多那很期待未來包括這個部長能夠透過跨部會的研商針對剛剛吳院長所提到的如果是很複雜的情形之下能不能一開始就必須要把它整合在一起而不至於後來是切割式的再做處理讓這些受害者得到第二次傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
20266.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
20284.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
我想憲憑三法那個勞動部應該很熟啦那這個其實我不曉得吳院長覺得好像不太好用因為這是我上一屆擔任召委的時候通過的所以我當時覺得我們很用心在把這三個法處理得好那怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
20286.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
20312.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
圖法不只以自行嘛,怎麼樣把法弄到真的讓大家每一個場域都能夠很順利的來應用我想我們再來多請教勞動部來指導一下是這是新公法?是包括像教育部啊退伍會裡面的公民醫院系列國防部的國防大學等等事實上都會有同樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
20313.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
20342.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
那個跟王漢說明這些身份不管是公務人員或者是勞工甚至可能包括實習生只要發生他在職場裡面有職場裡面的權利關係基本上就是用性供法所以雖然看起來有不同身份的多重性可是事實上都應該是用性供法來處理那我們希望將來主責單位就必須要確實負起責任因為我們最後再看有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
20343.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
20361.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
如果不是公立醫院而是私立醫院或者是相關的體系的時候那真的是衛福部責無旁貸也希望能夠請部長繼續把這些該做的事情能夠確實的做好好那謝謝好謝謝謝謝市委好謝謝汪委員謝謝部長接下來我們請許曉新委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
20383.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
20386.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
謝謝主席我們先請這個洪勝翰部長好嗎學員好部長好您是勞團出身的那請問您知道今天勞團在我們立法院前面有抗議嗎我知道那他抗議的內容是什麼今天主要針對國定假日吧國定假日他們的訴求是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
20409 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
20430.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
我希望大家不要其他人不要幫這個我們的部長回答這個問題因為他是勞團出身的所以當我們今天在我們立法院的現場上勞團抗議的時候我覺得你有責任知道他們抗議的內容是什麼主要是跟七天國家有關七天國家他們希望抗議就是說還我七天假想問一下洪聖漢部長過去知不支持七天假 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
20435.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
20459.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
過去對啊你在做立法委員的時候或是你在民間團體的時候你認不認同應該要放七天假這個七天假被拿掉這件事情對我們勞工來說是一件很負面的事情而且台灣的勞工工作實在是太辛苦了就我現在的工作來說沒問你過去我認同應該要盡量的減少工時的負擔好那現在呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
20461.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
20488.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
那你支不支持把七天的國定假日還全於民還給勞工我還是支持怎麼樣來協助勞工減少工時收入我問的就是這七天假嘛因為勞團今天來問的就是七天假嘛所以我們不談別的我們就談這七天假七天假還還是不還勞動部現在的立場是什麼跟委員說明因為確實國定假日現在的法規主要是在內政部主管的法規是在內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
20489.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
20508.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
那我要問你勞動部長的想法我才能去跟內政部做溝通啊但我們會把現在勞工的各種聲音讓內政部所以你贊成還是不贊成嗎不要講目前的法規我問你作為一個勞動部長的意見我問的是你作為勞動部長你看待所有的勞工有這麼長工時的狀況之下勞動部長的意見為何這很重要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
20512.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
20530.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
我支持降低勞工在工時上的負擔所以你支持降低勞工工時下降當然不代表你支持要恢復7天的國定假日我可以這麼解釋嗎我支持降低勞工在工時上的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
20530.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
20546.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
但是你不一定支持七天假還給民眾因為現在國定假日的部分他是在其他的主管部隊沒有我問的是你的態度嗎你先假設其他的主管機關都已經放行的時候你支持還不支持嗎我支持降低勞工在公司上的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
20547.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
20563.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
所以你還是不敢講出 知不知實現然後沒關係我接下來要問的是別的問題那主要就是剛才這個王振旭委員他也非常關心的有關於這個性騷的醫師的這個問題所以那個邱探員部長也歡迎你一起到台上我們一起來就教 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
20564.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
20582.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
當時在12月16號這件事情被爆出來的時候陳昭志委員也提到了就是說呢這個人那竟然這個這麼長時間的性騷擾的醫師還在婦產科職業而且他傷害的很多都是其他的醫師這是一個職場上的性騷擾那您當時這是邱恺恩部長當時說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
20583.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
20589.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
涉及性騷事件依照姓名三法處理司法判決確定執行業務出現違反學術倫理行為醫師法25條規定醫師公衛會主管機關一副懲戒但是沒有啊為什麼沒有我們勞動部長應該最清楚為什麼沒有辦法做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
20600.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
20618.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
依附懲戒為什麼沒有就是邱太元部長在12月16號他說的依信憑三法處理司法判決確定然後呢違反醫學原理行為醫師法25條醫師公會主管機關依附懲戒為什麼他所做的這些事情後來都沒有辦法做到原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
20619.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
20635.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
你最清楚這是醫師法的規定你最清楚為什麼沒有辦法做到這些事情為什麼沒有新評三法是走在前面他說新評三法走完之後司法判決確定之後然後醫師法25條新評三法是第一個所以我要先問你為什麼沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
20636.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
20658.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
為什麼沒有什麼事情為什麼性平三法沒有辦法處理完這個案件然後公佈於社會之後為什麼這個人他繼續在擔任婦產科工會的理事長那個跟學員說明喔性平三法主要當然我說這個法應該是用性供法來去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
20658.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
20676.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
來我們看一下討論片性供罰處理的是這個相關的出行證跟通報的機制性供罰第13條裡面寫到雇主因接獲被害人申訴而知悉性騷擾情形之後開始調查以及予以懲處請問本案有人擔任被害人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
20683.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
20702.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
那謝謝委員隨行喔那這個部分因為他工作的場域是在台大醫院所以台大醫院就立即得到消息以後就立即展開調查從此也給以考積懲處然後再送到台灣大學那台灣大學也一樣會經過我今天早上大概有談過好幾次 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
20707.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
20717.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
我現在在問的是洪部長我在問的是性別平等工作法性工法裡面的內容他要講到是要有申訴人才能做懲處 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
20719.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
20734.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
然後呢你有申訴人那個申訴人才能得到相關案件的報告的結果但因為本案你們堅持沒有申訴人所以沒有辦法進行下去沒有申訴人也可以進行調查那現在調查結果怎麼樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
20736.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
20757.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
調查結果應該有公佈了嗎我們追查了老半天你們都是告訴我說都是告訴我說因為沒有申訴人所以什麼都不能公開隨喜那個西教授對啊他現在調查結果為何啊公佈了嗎為什麼這個人他現在目前還在做自己的產科台大醫院已經在 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
20761.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
20767.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
6月的時候已經完成調查完成調查 從考試會懲處那這個相關的報告去識別化公布了嗎去識別化 兩大過我知道去識別化以後公布了嗎因為很多受害者在等待這份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
20778.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
20801.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
他們當初他們不敢以受害者的身份出來申訴但是他們想要知道這份報告的結果可是我們現在怎麼追都追不到你們也不願意提供給我們因為你說我們不是受害者所以你不提供給我們我相信蘇清泉醫師也好陳昭之醫師也好王振旭醫師也好陳金威醫師也好都跟你們要過了什麼東西都沒有主席我講的沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
20805.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
20825.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
倒不是我們調查沒有出來已經調查出來而且也做懲處但是去識別化其實當初我們在我們的那個委員會裡面也有討論過其實那個很容易就知道誰是受害其實你們還沒公開的時候就已經被週刊寫了啦來我們邱副長可以回答一下為什麼像這樣子的人他還可以繼續擔任他還可以繼續擔任這個婦產科醫學會的理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
20832.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
20856.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
然後呢繼續辦參會他繼續告訴其他人說本案他是被抹黑的他說他真的啊他跟別人講說我是被抹黑的沒有這回事啊這個就是看過就好反正他理事長的位置坐的繼續屁股穩穩坐在那裡然後坐在他旁邊的一大堆人出席活動的人很多都是受害者知道這件事嗎他們不敢來參加這個學會了他們不敢來參加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
20861.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
20874.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
我們國家的法律好好保護到他們嗎?也接觸他們嗎?剛才每一個人講的下有歧視的結果他還是理事長然後他的理事醫學會裡面的會員是受害者怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
20878.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
20901.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
怎麼辦我想那是因為是專業民間團體我想我們會站在衛福部的立場會要他們改怎麼改你要求他們要改那以後如果再出現這樣的狀況我希望這件事情我們可以事歸事沒有問題但是你要長期要像王振訓醫師剛剛講到的想出一個長期如果下次再發生這樣的事情的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
20901.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
20920.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
我知道台大醫院我知道性供法我知道你們按這個方式做了一個流程但是現在的事實情況擺在眼前是這個加害人他可以逃過所有的法律之後他繼續在擁有權力的理事長的位置上面而他的會員們就是被害者啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
20920.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
20930.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
他們不敢參加他們不知道該不該到主桌敬酒你知道那是多難過的事情嗎女孩子的醫師不知道他該不該去向他婦產科醫學會的理事長敬酒他會發抖他們不敢過去他們都是會員 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
20937.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
20941.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
包委員這個我們來處理這真的是讓大家覺得很傷心的一件事情這麼久了12月16號的時候爆出來然後一路到今天我今天也不是要苛責任何人我跟大家講這個事實就是很多受害者在等待 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
20954.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
20970.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
你們給他正式的回應讓他們不要再看到加害他們的人跟他在同一個體系裡面大家還要假裝開心還要假裝一起喝酒誰知道喝完酒之後下一秒他會不會偷摸他下一秒會不會洗胸下一秒會不會性殺下一秒會不會性侵 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
20971.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
20990.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
這些女孩子 這些被經過騷擾而她因為家庭關係她不敢站出來的人在目前我們現行的體制之下她仍然在害怕所以部長 但是我希望你可以給多久的時間你們把這件事情有從頭到尾的把它處理完畢不要偉大序雕 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
20991.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
21020.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
你給我一個時間給我一個成果希望台灣大學趕快完成那個整個整個懲處然後我想那個縣市縣市公會的懲戒委員的委員衛生局懲戒委員的委員處理然後送到中衛護部的話我們會除了對這件事情做一個處理以外我們會把以這樣的一個系統性的來檢討希望未來不要再發生這種事情還有就是他 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
21021.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
21029.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
作為一個如果台大醫院已經調查這名醫師他是性騷而且嚴重的性騷也已經被記過他有這樣的事實是否就已經不再是任婦產科醫學會的理事長他現在在我們的衛生部的職登已經沒有職登了但他還是理事長啊對啊 理事長這個部分因為他是民間團體我們會對啊 他是民間團體怎麼辦呢我們會那個要求他們因為你要知道你一定比我清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
21050.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
21069.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
知道說就算他不是醫師了沒有椅子登了但他如果是這個呃理事長覺得婦產可以學會理事長的話他等於是還是擁有很大部分決定這個產業然後會接觸到很多這個產業的醫師包含女性醫師的這個情況所以我想要最後問一下部長針對他仍然是呃這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
21072.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
21092.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
理事長身份我們能夠怎麼樣來處理如果那個部長那個勞動部長有好的方法的話也幫我們說明一下那就是你們看兩位他作為一個民間團體但你已經確定說這是一個等於是說他針對婦產科學會的醫學會然後他的會員裡面可能很多都是被他所騷擾過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
21094.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
21109.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
這個女性然後他們還要服膺在這個理事醫學會底下然後理事長是這樣子的一個人我們有沒有任何辦法請他離開他的本職如果有法律我們依法辦理如果沒有法律的話我們會欠他們禁訴改選 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
21110.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
21137.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
你會勸他們進出來選給我一個期限我要一個期限你們要多久之間辦理完成因為我怕我離開這個質詢台之後他又告訴我想說沒有啦我沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣會把告訴他們的情況以及他們的會副長科的回應隨時跟委員報告你需要多久你給我一個時間我們因為我也不了解說他們的因為他們要開臨時理事會嘛才有辦法去做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
21138.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
21159.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
所以他可能要有一點時間但是這個過程我們隨時跟委員報告好不好就是說我們已經什麼時候跟他們講了他們怎麼回應什麼時候要開臨時理事會好 謝謝那剩下法規齁如果有大家覺得有不夠周延的地方也拜託我們的勞動部跟我們的這個衛福部這邊好好的來研析希望下一次不要再有這樣的情況發生了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
21163.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
21166.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
謝謝習委員 謝謝部長來 接下來我們請陳穎委員質詢謝主席 麻煩等一下喔 不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
21190.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
21200.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
咱們處理一下口水溫度吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
21244.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
21246.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
謝謝主席 麻煩請那個勞動部長部長好勞動部的這個臉書先前有傳出這個涉及司長的霸凌你們有處理嗎有 已經在臉書出來前一天我們其實就已經立案調查了因為這個已經被媒體公開那根據這個投訴的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
21273.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
21301.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
似乎是部署對於長官的不滿而投訴那整體看起來跟霸凌的關聯性似乎不是有直接的關係整體看起來比較像是在潑髒水詆毀啦那而且還有這個數百字的指控竟然一字不差的由不同的人重複的PO在這個就是重複的PO上去那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
21303.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
21320.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
就是說而且這些個人的檔案都是封鎖起來的那最近當然我們也常受到網軍的攻擊那很多網軍的這個帳號也是都封鎖起來的這個和我們平時受到這個網軍攻擊的手法似乎是如出一策的 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
21320.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
21345.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
只是說這個內容他不是AI而是說對而是由那個對於勞動部內部的事情遼弱執掌的人來就是撰寫的那而且就是說這內容呢裡面內容對於同仁的裙子有多長絲襪穿什麼顏色都知道我想要請教部長就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
21347.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
21370.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
假如這兩位可能升署長的司長被鬥下來之後呢後續有哪些人可能可以取而代之那這些取而代之的人有沒有可能又接續著就成為被攻擊的對象或被潑髒水的對象我不曉得部長看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
21371.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
21394.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
跟陳委員說明因為這個事件有媒體有報導那我這邊簡單說一個說明我們目前看到這個投訴之前他也透過各種管道有投訴進來所以在他在臉書的留言貼出來之前前一天我們其實就已經找了外部委員立案 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
21396.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
21414.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
那也因為已經找了外部人立案了所以當時我們才把這個留言做隱藏因為裡面涉及到一些個資那我們已經開始調查可是我跟陳委員說明我們沒有從說這是哪一個身牽怎麼樣怎麼樣的角度我想從勞動部的角度我們就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
21415.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
21442.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
查明事實把事實弄清楚這樣很好都沒有關係但是我想本席今天想要提醒有一個重點就是說當然今天召委排定的議程題目是一個友善的職場那如果說在這個職場上有少數人以霸凌之名隨意指控這個管理者那各式各樣的問題那麼在未來的這個霸凌專法或者這個霸凌專章 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
21443.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
21469.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
會有機制處理嗎難道就是說各部會可以容許職場上這種捕蜂捉蠅然後就是說蜂蚊機可查辦的現象嗎那這樣的職場會友善嗎因為我現在其實我們這樣子稍微聊一下都可以看到其實各部會全體同仁上下應該都是人心惶惶吧現在就很多人也是無心工作跟陳委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
21470.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
21486.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
我們基本上我覺得最重要的就是把真相查明那所以也許有人投訴坦白說也有可能是捕風捉影也有可能是用就是沒有明確的事實事證甚至也不是不可能是有抹黑的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
21487.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
21515.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
所以最重要的事情最重要的事情就是把事實查明那我們當然會對於投訴的人陳情的人予以這個該做的保護我們會做保護可是我從一個機制面來看的話我該做的事情就是把事實查明查明勿枉勿重以後再來做後續的處理如果是捕風捉影當然也透過事實的查明去釐清沒有這些事情因為我時間有限本席還有一些想提醒的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
21516.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
21540.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
就是說我想當然最重要的原則就是說對於任何一個具體有具體霸凌行為的人我們都應該要勿枉勿縱那任何的檢舉或者陳情都應該要具名負責所以未來的專法他是會看到黑影就開槍還是只是嚴查具名檢舉的案子或者是另外調查過程當中難免會遇到這個當事者產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
21543.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
21564.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
產生這個影響那所以為了公平那應該說不僅吹哨者要保護那對於被吹哨的當事者在事證未釐清之前是不是也應該要本於無罪推定給予應有的保障呢我會同意這個想法這是為什麼我們那時候在勞動部的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
21565.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
21588.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
留言裡面我們認為應該要先做隱藏的原因因為這事情都還在待查明的過程裡面所以我們覺得那個裡面的留言的內容涉及到一些個資應該要隱藏不是刪除好那所以我現在要講的是說你們可以去判斷嘛如果有人天天滿腦子都在想著收集資料然後要檢舉長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
21590.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
21609.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
那就是說而且這種人還如此熟悉鍾情於這個網路的操作那我就想請教嘛這樣的人他會把心思放在工作上嗎啊大家可以去部長可以去想一想嘛而且我也好奇就是說部長你如何看待職場的倫理跟管理這個問題然後你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
21612.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
21630.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
都可以去分辨什麼是真正的霸凌檢舉或者只是網路操作帶風向的然後再惡搞嗎可不可以分辨我還是要跟委員說我覺得去透過查明事實包括要對於相關的人做出明確的訪談我覺得這件事情很重要其實如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
21630.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
21660.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
我覺得每個部會或者是行政機關我們把查明這件事實給做好我覺得也可以讓那些想要透過胡亂的爆料或者是抹黑的人知道這樣子的動作其實是沒效的所以我說還是要說明我覺得要能夠查明是最重要的事情所以我們的霸凌未來這個霸凌討論的這個霸凌的專章或者專法應該也都彼此要有一個制衡的方式嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
21662.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
21688.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
我也不同意只要有爆料就好像就必須假設這個爆料一定是真的我覺得這其實也不合理我現在要講的是說當然既然檢舉者要具名嘛那被檢舉者要調查那麼調查的結果難道就不需要說讓這個兩造雙方都知道嗎我想這很重要吧而且還是說我們就是這個輕描淡寫然後穿過水無痕 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
21689.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
21715.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
沒有當然不是啊那舉例喔我舉例就是說如果調查霸凌成立要實施這個懲處那麼調查的成員跟結果也應該要能夠被直攜才有預防的效果那同樣的道理喔如果不成立也應該還人家一個清白才對那反之這個霸凌或者其他的不實指控不成立誣告的人誣告者難道都不需要懲處嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
21716.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
21740.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
我想這個是建立友善職場一個很重要必要的綱紀那我不曉得部長認不認同本席的說法我是很好奇那個誤告者要不要被懲處我們也想請教部長我認為我自己的看法是確實會有一些他的陳情他會說這是霸凌可是實際上他可能是對管理的方式有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
21742.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
21763.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
他可能對管理的方針但是其實沒有涉及到所謂的職場霸凌那確實管理可能有各種不同的意見可是我想我們現在很難去說對於誣告的人他就要怎麼樣的甚至我可以跟陳委員說明有很多他如果是想要捕風捉影的他甚至都是用匿名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
21764.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
21776.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
就像剛剛他可能更多他會用匿名的方法或者是假名的方法來去做陳述這是我們在裡面看到的情況那寫得亂七八糟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
21778.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
21793.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
我有看到這個內容可是我還是要跟陳委員說我不方便去說現在去說哪一個爆料就一定是真的哪一個是爆料是假的這件事情都還是要進到立案以後然後由調查的人去確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
21794.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
21811.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
事實的真相然後是不是吻合然後吻合的話那到底他是屬於哪幾類的狀況我覺得可能還是要進到這個過程所以我自己我現在做一個部長我不是我現在就直接去說哪一個這個爆料的內容是對的或這個爆料的內容是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
21811.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
21841.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
我想我今天也沒有要我今天也沒有要針對個案但我覺得最重要的是我想要提醒部長就針對我們要就是說未來可能要討論的這個專法跟專章的問題有重要的事情我要提醒部長就是說新的霸凌專法是不是適用公務人員你要想一想那如果是霸凌專章那是不是職安法的專章所以只適用這個勞工而不適用僱主 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
21842.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
21867.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
這裡的差別我想職安署應該是最清楚因為具有僱主跟合夥者身份的人在工作場所因工作原因並不是職業災害那當然主要是僱主不受職安法的保護所以在未來老闆去霸凌人家或者被霸凌的時候可能就不算是職場霸凌了這只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
21870.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
21893.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
一個有可能發生的現象那還有就是說霸凌者在勞基法的架構之下是不是還可以不服然後去地方主管調解甚至說要求申訴等就近所以我在這裡本席要特別提醒勞動部面對這個霸凌成立之後呢可能還有問題要處理那何前部長呢因為第一版調查報告而辭職 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
21894.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
21913.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
那因為他相信部署那部長 洪部長應該知道是說這部霸凌的專法或專章同樣都是受到我們全國關注的那提醒說要了解這個霸凌專法或者專章的重要性跟差異性在哪裡那我在衛環長時間的觀察啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
21916.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
21939.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
很多的勞動部長他的烏紗帽掉了一方面是自己缺乏危機判斷另一方面也可能就是太相信文官的見解所以也可以說是毀在文官的手上所以今天我想就是說本席要語重心長的引用何前部長在任內最後一次的背詢回答我們蘇清泉召委的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
21941.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
21951.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
那這些話呢大家都可以在立法院的公報113卷第102期的307頁找得到何部長他要卸任前這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
21953.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
21972.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
面对庞大的官僚体系其实我是陌生的所以我也非常戒慎恐惧我期待与文官之间发展出合作友善的关系但是我忽略了文官体制之间有难以掌控的陋习跟恶习乃至于我不曾想象的邪恶问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
21973.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
21999.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
文官體制與民主政治體制存在著很多的鴻溝社群網路媒體對於文官的凌遲和剝削也不遑多讓這些話呢其實是本席要給這個繼任的這個勞動部長對不起 不是我啦我說這些話是那個我們何賢部長給繼任的勞動部長最後的忠告那我只是拿出來再提醒一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
22000.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
22022.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
那要提醒部長 文官的這個霸凌跟內鬥齁這個非冰凍三尺 也非一日之寒我也曾經在2016回來的時候齁受到波及啦 齁 也真厲害內內太誇張到我這裡來捏把我也 把我拖進去 也寫我的黑函捏 多厲害所以要提醒喔 這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
22024.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
22043.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
最可怕的是他還會利用這個網路社群媒體甚至黑函的不實指控來利用就是說部長的陌生跟戒慎恐懼次長也一樣那提醒就是說偏聽則廢 監聽則明不要重蹈覆轍這是本席今天最大的提醒謝謝陳委員謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請陳培宇委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
22060.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
22063.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
好謝謝主席有請衛福部跟教育部謝謝啊不對不對我第一頁還有勞動部只有一頁而已謝謝部長勞動部謝謝委員好好部長辛苦了辛苦了來部長呃我們有一個那個哎性騷那個最後拔掉了部長抱歉我們決定先不要講好了那部長請回抱歉抱歉謝謝陳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
22091.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
22108.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
謝謝部長辛苦了我也好好來衛福部部長我從上任到現在我們發現兒少系統裡面有非常多溝基的問題而且我們其實從教育部開始其實我們進行超過一年以上的溝通衛福部也被我們打擾了非常多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
22108.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
22133.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
那目前的溝基系統看起來還是有些漏洞怎麼說只要有新聞事件我們就會回過頭來檢視這個溝基系統出了什麼問題部長在2024年12月17號台中體育班棒球隊再犯新聞至少性侵29人這個新聞我相信你一定知道然後呢就有厲害的記者去問到底發生了什麼事情他們就說因為這個教練他去到新的學校的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
22135.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
22163.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
有勾忌的问题有去查核的问题所以就没有查出来因为还有相关的事情所以这个是我们认为勾忌很大的漏洞接下来看屏东的新闻一样屏东某国小的古兴篮球教练2022年染指五名女童这些新闻我就不要再念了但是呢最后他因为被法院判决说改判不受理所以虽然这个教练没有经过论罪科刑但仍然被法院认定肃刑不良那部长我相信你一定认同这样的教练不能再进入学校 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
22164.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
22187.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
甚至是不能再接觸做跟小孩有關的工作對不對對喔對嘛你認為呢這樣的人他可以持續在各式各樣的體育教學現場接觸我們的小孩嗎雖然法院判定不受理但仍然有相關肅行不良的問題而且他確實有男子女童的問題部長你覺得這樣的人還可以繼續跟我們的小孩一起做各式各樣的工作甚至是做教學嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
22189.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
22205.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
那個委員是問衛福部問你問你 當然是問衛福部啊因為而上法49條而上法49條歸你們管的啦 部長是的雖然司法的一個判的嚴格但是我想這是不適合再擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
22205.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
22231.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
而且我剛剛已經偷偷把答案給部長了嘛而上法49條你們其實可以做相關的行政裁罰嘛對不對好那我要講的是這一系列我們再來齁這些都還是相關比較容易追蹤的案子可是有一個更奇怪的案子齁我先舉例都只是個案可是我要講在我的個案背後都還有更多更多的個案它可以形成一個通案的論述在2022年高雄大園國中棒球隊他讓不適任的人員進到學校當義務教練 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
22233.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
22251.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
那這個不適任人員他有相關的校安事件所以他被列為不得再聘任為兼任代理代課老師也就是他確實被認證是一個不再適合進入校園裡面但是學校卻用志工的方法聘他入校部長你覺得這樣對嗎不妥當 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
22252.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
22265.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
太好了謝謝部長你的態度當然這件事情我們要從教育部來追沒有錯來下一頁可是之後兒校法要修法其實兒校法你們在修法的討論當中你們一定也已經注意到相關問題了對不對您旁邊會不會有同仁在 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
22267.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
22286.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
點頭那在今年的教育部的臨時提案裡面我提了一個臨時提案我要求教育部之後要全面清查可是這件事情他不會只有教育部的角色會由教育部主動發起但是我這裡要拜託衛福部部長您要指示你的同仁屆時必須要積極的跟教育部配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
22287.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
22312.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
因為他會有兒少法勾擊的問題而且兒少法修法完之後這個勾擊如果沒有再度形成一個綿密的安全網會有非常多狡猾奸詐可惡的大人他們會利用這個系統的漏洞繼續留在每一個可能接觸到小孩的場所過往我在提出警告的時候你們都用非常多理由跟藉口但非常多新聞事件一再的證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
22313.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
22326.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
這些漏洞很大很大很大所以即將要開始的兒少法修法之前我要拜託衛福部部長你給我給我們一個承諾好不好你們之後會積極跟教育部甚至部長還有即將掛牌成立的運動部是 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
22328.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
22336.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
因為運動部裡面會有非常多單項運動教練社區運動教練他可能進入校園可能留在社區而他們相關的認證有他們的專業認證但是他們跟兒少在一起這件事情相關認證相關資格相關法規範會跟衛福部有極大的關係尤其落在兒少權法裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
22347.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
22364.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
好的 我們這幾個部會大家都講霸凌 我今天不講霸凌我要講的就是這個非常重要的命題 好嗎因為我們知道你們兒上法修法在即嘛 對不對好 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來部長您請回 謝謝那教育部的學特司司長 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
22365.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
22374.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
我們之前一直跟你們說我們有跟體育署說也跟教育部反映體育署要求全中運要去報名的選手必須要綁定所謂禁藥知識測驗做完這個測驗之後才能就是被綁定之後他才能去報名當全中運的選手甚至體育署說這個是符合國際潮流可是我們發現這個案子竟然是委託給體育署沒有辦法監督的基金會的平台去執行好這樣子也就算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
22394.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
22397.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
在今年報名前夕 系統當調 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
22399.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
22424.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
體育署的藉口說因為選手大量同一時間上線可是我們發現這個問題其實在10月就已經解決了但為什麼到現在還是有很多全中運的選手其實沒有完成這個禁藥知識測驗的報名那會不會影響到後續他們身為全中運選手的資格呢我們問了體育署他們說不會不會啦之後再來補我想要問一下司長你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
22425.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
22443.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
在教育部裡面這些討論我們其實一直有提醒你們這邊我想要積極拜託你們因為這些選手他都是國教署要積極維護相關權益的選手也是教育部要積極維護相關權益的選手他們只是體育業務跟體育署有關可是相關的事情還是有非常多必須要教育部有所承擔這邊可不可以請司長幫我們簡單回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
22446.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
22471.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
我想盧董剛才委員所說體育署說明這個目前運動員要通過這個線上的這個禁藥知識的檢測是目前國際的沒有啦我跟你說奧運都沒有今年我知道亞運有可是亞運他們只是讓他們上ADL然後通過相關測驗相關配套並不是只是隨便綁一個測驗然後就當成逼迫選手要報名的時候綁定在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
22471.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
22491.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
每次只要說符合國際趨勢我們辦公室就認真去查資料發現並不是這樣所以市長我要跟你說2022奧運就沒有這個要求好謝謝市長請繼續好那我想那個因為體育署他在目前政策上是朝這個方向在做所以他現在會是想辦法克服有關於這個網路流量的問題10月就解決了啦市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
22493.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
22503.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
聽起來是還在努力中他希望能夠從流量上解決問題讓所有要報名參賽的選手能夠完成這個線上檢測那這個部分還在努力當中所以我們應該也會維護這些選手的報名的權益這是第一個非常重要絕對不要讓他們因為沒有參與這個禁藥線上平台測驗而限制他們當選手的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
22515.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
22528.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
但是後續這個平台跟這個相關的業務關係我們辦公室也會再釐清也拜託這邊先給予轉達好嗎因為這個事情非常非常急 全中運報名的部分好 以上謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長圖前級委員 圖前級委員 圖前級委員他改書面諮詢張雅琳委員 張雅琳 張雅琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
22553.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
22555.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
謝謝主席有請衛福部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
22562.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
22580.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
部長好去年113年的7月30號行政院有核定一個護理人力政策整備中長程計畫就是從今年開始114到117的一個中長程計畫那這半年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
22581.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
22605.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
我們也看到你們都在做一個擴大意見收集的會議雖然我不知道會議的結果是什麼但是我想應該都離不開關於血汗醫護解決這個問題你們也有一個12項策略的計畫當中當然改善職場的環境薪資的改善人才培育等等也很多包括護病筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
22606.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
22631.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
達標的話醫院會有獎勵或者是說用科技來減輕護理的負荷又或者說夜班護理人員直接獎勵那我想其實大家最在意的應該還是人力問題啦不是單單的所謂的獎勵或提高薪資啦我舉個例子我就聽到很多抱怨啦夜班護理人員直接獎勵完蛋了白班的有意見了會有這種狀況嗎嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
22636.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
22652.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
月班直接獎勵對啊 白班也很累啊我們常常講不換寡換不均嘛那他就會有相對的剝奪感嘛好 那沒有關係 部長我只是提醒說我們不要去創造了一些策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
22653.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
22681.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
那明明也加薪了 明明也獎勵了結果到最後大家還是覺得有所差異 並不滿意我覺得這是很可惜的但是我要講的是說大家最在乎的其實還是人力這個最重要那我自己因為是屏東人所以我也去看過衡旅 布屏或者是退府會的屏容 龍泉分院我講一句實在話我是至少我覺得就是政府部門 公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
22682.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
22701.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
所設立的這些醫院應該來做領頭羊來徵聘護理師所以請教一下部長這些部立醫院有沒有要徵聘我想各個醫院都在努力徵聘公立醫院有規劃多少要增加500多個職缺嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
22713.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
22733.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
我想這個資料我也很想了解我的意思只是說這個要提醒我希望再去盤整一下因為我聽到基層其實還是會有很多意見那這些獎勵策略我覺得一定要好好的想怎麼樣符合基層的期待畢竟我們現在是趨於下風 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
22734.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
22756.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
很多偏鄉醫院就是招不到醫護嘛我想這個部分我們要好好的檢討那另外一個部分我想部長您之前也跟我們一同努力把原住民族健康法拼出來了那在去年很高興去年的10月我看到其中一個執法叫原住民族健康照護人員的培育禁用及流用辦法也出來了其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
22757.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
22767.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
第10條這個第一項他有提到寬裂鎖匣原住民族地區衛生所支援而編制那請教一下部長目前擴編的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
22772.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
22791.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
這個第十條的部分寬列衛生所編制在兩年前我們國健署就已經有公布在衛生所地區的一個編制應該沒有受到限制也就是說他們有需求相關的醫事人都可以編好啊 那我就請教像那個娜瑪夏就有跟我陳情啊她說他們想要徵聘一位醫師啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
22792.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
22804.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
會嗎?這部分有跟他們提過是可以請真的所以意思就是說他們沒有提出來?上次去下鄉的時候就有跟他們提過所以他們沒有提出來嗎?對,他們沒有提那是市政府的問題囉? |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
22807.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
22828.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
好 我要講這個是說很多原鄉都不知道啦縣市不知道啦這個部分可能還是要加強宣導好不好你看都已經有資格啦可是他們不知道 還在跟我們陳情這很奇怪 好不好那另外同條第三項會提供留任獎金就是六年以後繼續留下來的請問對象 醫師 護理師目前是針對醫師的部分目前是針對醫 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
22836.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
22845.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
那就糟糕啦 就我講的啊不患寡患不均啊明明是好事 結果另外一邊沒有 這樣好嗎這是針對工會 工會議事如果細留任於該地區 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
22854.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
22864.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
服務期滿的我們鼓勵啦是啊 那護理師呢我想這個是中長城計畫嘛也有核定這個經費再好好想一想因為我都覺得很可惜每次政府有美意但為德不足多可惜啊就會引發另外一種抱怨的聲音不好因為我們偏鄉教育條例也有9任獎金啊大家也在考慮學校不是只有老師嘛護理師校護也算嘛我們也要考慮進去我們來引力 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
22883.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
22908.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
那另外一個就是社會救助法也是衛福部主管的一個法條在其中第四條就是有關低收入戶那最重要的是第四項就是所謂的家庭財產包括動產及不動產其金額應分別定之這個就是取決於他能不能獲得這個資格那請教一下部長就是這個所謂的財產收入有沒有包括社會救助的給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
22912.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
22927.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
非常感謝那個委員這邊的那個垂詢其實我們現在目前社會救助法我們現在目前確實有把這個我覺得應該要做一些調整現在目前的整個這一個更多的方案我們現在目前已經送到院那邊我們是希望就是說這部分應該我們應該應該做社會救助應該不會市長是這樣因為這個問題其實因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
22934.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
22960.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
之前105年開始發放禁法補償也問過啦那108年的時候法務部有一個回覆含釋他是說依法的這種現金啊 給付或補助不得扣押讓與或提供擔保品那如果還是強制執行的話有違政府發放之目的所以這個部分我知道的是後來這幾年是讓各縣市自行認定我覺得不夠好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
22961.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
22976.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
我是希望說比照法扶基金會他就寫得很清楚法扶基金會誰可以申請他也有把這個排除掉就是淨法補償收入他很明定所以我是希望說你們也可以來明定好不好不要讓各縣市認定好不好包委我們這個我們來演繹我想這個確實應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
22979.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
22992.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
那市長請教一下上次那個那麼夏我知道也有澄清那個洗腎中心但是我有跟你提到可以去做一個行動的洗腎車你們規劃的如何了 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
22993.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
23015.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
我們原鄉太多人要洗腎了這個部分跟衛生局有討論過他們目前是想要協調鄰近的小型的地區醫院或診所他們來承攬承攬這個行動洗腎對 配置或是在一個固定的場合是最適合的那我想說大概兩週內可以來跟我就我今天所關心的來跟我做一個報告好嗎謝謝好 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
23020.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
23028.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
謝謝吳委員鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在楊耀委員 質詢這個主席 主席請一下勞動部紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
23048.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
23065.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
部長我們推動友善職場大概就是要從好多個面向包括平常的教育宣導包括鼓勵受害者勇於舉報 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
23068.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
23086.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
舉報了以後要怎麼保護受害者到後續雇主應該要怎麼妥善的處理這是一個很大的問題我們也有相關的法律在做規範我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
23089.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
23097.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
我常講只有法律是沒有辦法完成任何一件事情的,還是必須要真正的落實法律才是重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
23101.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
23122.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
推動友善職場應該也算是勞動部一個很重要的工作怎麼讓勞工甚至於是你們自己的員工在職場上獲得保障避免受到不必要的不管是性貧性輕或者是霸凌種種 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
23125.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
23147.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
這個請部長就是長期來關注那我今天想要跟部長就我們就業服務法剛通過修正的相關問題跟部長做個討論那這個我們新修的就業服務法放寬了80歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
23150.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
23173.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
的長者就是聘用外國籍的看護工不用經過醫療機關的就取消八十兩票的規定面聘部長我們八十全國八十歲以上的人口有多少你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
23179.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
23191.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
91萬91萬那根據統計大概有53萬其實是健康的可是現在原本假如有巴士量表就是大概不到40萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
23194.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
23207.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
可能有需求我們說可能有需求那現在突然多出了多出了潛在的需求者53萬對這個缺口你要怎麼你要怎麼怎麼補 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
23209.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
23224.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
跟揚元說明我們當然現在會來跟外交部那一起跟我們這個外籍看護工的來源主要的來源國那來討論說那有沒有可能這個攻擊就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
23225.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
23240.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
跨國勞動力的供給在提高的可能但是這真的不完全超支在我們我知道這跟在母國他的自己的管理量能包括他能夠引進的量能都有很大的關係包括也跟我們其實在國際的 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
23241.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
23260.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
這個移工的市場上面的競爭力都有關係那我們當然會來試圖在供給上面還能不能再提高可是我們自己目前來評估的話跟需求增加這麼多來比需求的總體大概是潛在有53萬人他可以拿到申請的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
23261.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
23285.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
那但是當然不會每個人都來申請所以我們大概估計了一下就是說如果從這個過去失能的整體失能的長者的話大概有五成的人需要外籍看護工跟長照那所以如果來來對比的話我們大概評估也許兩到三成需要的話那大概十萬到十幾萬之間那這十幾萬跟我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
23287.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
23303.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
十幾萬就已經算很多了對所以十萬到十幾萬之間跟我們能夠在供給端能夠提高的量看起來這是為什麼我們這麼擔心的原因因為看起來供需的失衡有可能會加劇對因為我自己本身也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
23304.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
23333.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
外籍看護工的雇主所以我知道這幾年就是缺工已經原本就很嚴重對 這是本來就有的現象不過是這樣子 立法院的法律通過那行政部門就是變成只能去做因應那我們在國際就是勞動力引進其實先天上我們本來就 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
23335.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
23363.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
簡單的講就是我們的工資遠不如日韓啦對 沒錯就是在競爭上本來就已經就已經屈居若市對對對那現在一下子要不過這個還是必須要努力努力去做啦好不好我們會來跟兩個部分 剛才講說供給端會跟這個外交部來做討論那但是就整體因應尤其是怎麼樣來優先的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
23364.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
23387.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
這個重症家庭他受到照顧的權益這部分我們會跟衛福部來做這個商案可是你們好像沒有權利去做判斷哪一個判斷就是優先優先照顧重度必須要照顧的因為他現在就是變成變成大家的條件都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
23389.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
23399.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
除非是長照的部分當然是比較有優先順序可是外籍看護工並沒有外籍看護工就會變成你不可能去設定說說他80歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
23404.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
23423.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
誰優先優先你們可以嗎我們可能沒有辦法硬性的去設定可是我們怎麼來幫助他們可以比較容易找得到留得住或者是增加留得住的條件我們當然會想往這個方向來去協助但是確實因為這個修法後其實它的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
23425.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
23431.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
這個還是會很大我們只能在這裡減緩衝擊我們可能沒有辦法完全的讓這個衝擊不會發生我們只能試圖減緩衝擊假如說可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
23440.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
23467.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
有一個配套出來就是看要怎麼疏導讓真正重中度失能的長者可以優先取得優先顧到外籍看護工那當然是最好我們會希望往這個方向來試著一些政策工具怎麼使用可是就是這可能不是一個絕對的事情因為它可能沒有辦法變成是一個強力的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
23469.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
23484.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
你們沒有辦法 因為法律本來就不允許你這麼做那你剛剛講的非硬性的疏導方式有沒有優先協助啦 優先協助 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
23486.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
23509.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
怎麼協助因為禮拜二才剛修法通告嘛那我們接下來會跟衛福部來研擬這個降低衝擊的跨部會降低衝擊的配套的做法不過我在想衛福部可以的就是只有透過長照制度來做啊跟外籍看護公司是兩條比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
23512.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
23539.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
相類似可是並不重疊的線因為衛福部比較了解需求他比較了解照護需求那勞動部這邊我們的專長是在勞動力管理那這一整件事情的因應可能會需要你也了解照護需求對照護需求有相對應不同的策略然後怎麼樣透過勞動力管理大家一起來配合所以這需要兩個部一起來合作可是我的理解是衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
23540.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
23556.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
衛福部可能可以做的就是就是在請不到勞工的時候怎麼用長照制度去做挹注他可能比較沒有辦法跟你搭配來做外籍看護跟僱主的篩選 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
23557.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
23572.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
我的意思嗎對但我說實質的做法我覺得這是一個合作但是可能不是互相取代的但是它是一個合作所以衛福部有衛福部比較擅長比較了解的部分我們勞動部有比較我們擅長了解的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
23573.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
23593.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
怎麼樣子在不同的功能上面一起來分工合作我們現在只能試圖往降低衝擊的方向來想可是恐怕那個衝擊還是會發生這是我們最擔心的這也是為什麼我們在修法前一直要提醒大家嚴正要提醒大家這個修法是不是做一個妥當的修法副作用可能會很大我就是再用一分鐘講其實這幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
23598.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
23620.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
因為澎湖老人也多啦其實已經有一些僱主會擔心其實我自己也擔心為什麼 因為現在本來就就是這幾年就是一年一年比一年難聘那現在又大幅度的放寬會產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
23627.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
23639.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
外籍看護工他可以選擇照顧者他選擇亞健康的照顧者他不選擇重症 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
23641.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
23657.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
那他選擇可以給他額外津貼多一點的經濟上的強勢者就是薪資 薪資也會大家順著要拉高三的增加機會這個也合理 站在他的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
23659.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
23671.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
他也會選擇地區我覺得像離島偏鄉也會越來越難找得到家庭看護工那法律通過了接下來就請 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
23674.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
23696.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
部長我想這個議題也不會只有今天問那請部長趕快回去做一定的政策方向的擬定好不好謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝兩位謝謝兩位 謝謝部長葉仁芝 葉仁芝 葉仁芝委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
23700.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
23727.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
本日會議詢答全部結束委員涂謙其所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做一下決定報告及詢答完畢委員執行會籍答覆或請補充資料者相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另行要求者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在上會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
23741.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
23743.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
谢谢观看 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
23748.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
23774.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
謝謝觀賞 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
23774.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
23775.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
謝謝大家 謝謝 |