| IVOD_ID |
16429 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16429 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-20-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-30T08:30:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-30T13:11:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:40:16 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e4f168390ff16a010ea5b031af9c32cfd22ed645e3f9bcfe6bd5525a2fcd2fa925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院龔秘書長明鑫、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲就「行政院表示：因財劃法修正，114年度總預算須重編」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【113年12月30日及114年1月2日二天一次會】） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:44 - 13:11:00 |
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請主席報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數好現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議意思錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2117.762 |
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2140.868 |
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立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議事務．時間中華民國113年12月25日星期三9時至12時54分．中華民國113年12月26日星期四9時至10時46分．地點群仙樓九樓大禮堂．出席委員林德福等14人．列席委員王逸川等11人．列席官員113年12月25日星期三財政部部長莊作英等． |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2144.889 |
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2163.644 |
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．113年12月26日星期四．財政部部長莊翠雲等．主席乃召集委員會員．113年12月25日報告事項．宣讀上次會議事錄決定．一事錄確定．討論事項．一審查煙酒稅法實案．以行政院罕行審議．本院委員李博義等16人．委員賴慧琳等16人． |
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2164.304 |
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2187.169 |
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委員郭國倫等18人、委員吳清明等16人分別擬聚燕九稅法部門條文修正草案等5案二、本院委員徐曉新等29人擬聚燕九稅法第19條條文修正草案案三、本院委員賴世保等27人、委員吳立華等20人、委員張志倫等18人分別擬聚燕九稅法第19條及第21條條文修正草案等3案四、本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬聚 |
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2188.109 |
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2203.619 |
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宴酒稅法第19條及第23條條例修正查案2.審查使用牌照稅法8案1.行政院寒經審議本議委員賴世保等24人委員陳金輝等17人委員張志文等18人委員陳樹惠等19人委員賴慧玲等17人委員郭國仁等16人 |
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2204.159 |
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2232.234 |
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分別擬據使用牌照稅法第29條、第30條及第31條挑案修正草案等7案二、本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬據使用牌照稅法第30條及第31條挑案修正草案案三、審查行政院行政審議本院委員賴世保等21人委員林儲英等18人委員徐巧興等27人委員賴慧恩等17人委員郭國文等17人分別擬據突襲稅法第54條挑案修正草案等6案四、審查中華民國114年度中華政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分 |
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2232.894 |
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2254.468 |
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關於財政部主管中國輸出銀行、臺灣金融控股股份有限公司、韓臺灣銀行股份有限公司、臺灣燃燒保險股份有限公司、臺灣中華證券股份有限公司、臺灣事項個案合併詢答經委員賴世保、陳金輝、賴委員說明提案要旨。財政部部長莊淑穎說明及回應委員法律提案並就預算案報告後,據委員林大夫等事務人提出質詢。 |
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2256.065 |
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2284.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
軍警財政部部長莊俊穎等予以說明及答覆委員王航威所提訴命諮詢略錄記錄、刊登公報．並請相關部會以訴命答覆．委員諮詢會及答覆或請補充諮詢．請相關部會及署內以訴命答覆．委員立法院期限者從即所定。決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、應有稅法實案審查結果一、第18條、第19條、第23條條文及刪除第21條條文均照行政院提案通過二、本案審查完畢並且履歷審查報告提報院會討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2285.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2301.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
因為討論前不須交由黨團協商：因為討論時由賴召集委員會員補充說明：使用《白照稅法》第8案審查結果：以第29條、第30條及第31條條文均照行政提案通過：本案審查環境並任理據審查報告提報院外討論：因為討論前不須交由黨團協商：因為討論時由賴召集委員會員補充說明：土地稅法第54條等立案審查結果： |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2311.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2325.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
第五四條條文照行政院提案通過二本案審查完均並按已去審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需加入黨團協商院會討論時由賴召集委員會員補充說明五審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2327.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2341.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
總預算案、附屬單位預算、營業部分關於財政部主管、中國輸出日銀行、臺灣金融控股股份衍線公司、韓臺銀行股份衍線公司、臺灣能售保險股份衍線公司、臺灣中華證券股份衍線公司、113年12月26日星期四繼續審查通過臨時提案二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2343.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2363.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
113年12月26日討論事項繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於財政部主管、中國輸出運營行、臺灣金融控股股份衛生公司、韓臺銀行股份衛生公司、臺灣人壽保險股份衛生公司、臺灣中華振興股份衛生公司決議、審查結果以財政部主管通過決議三項一 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2366.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2384.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
中國輸出銀行業務計劃因依據營業收支、金融保險成本轉投資、重大之建設事業及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整營業收支一、營業總收入58億7481千元照列二、營業總支出不含所得稅費用原列46億5198萬6千元檢列一、 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2387.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2395.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
營業成本向下金融保險成本之各項提存750萬元二營業費用250萬元含業務費用之服務費用200萬元管理費用50萬元以上工具減略1000萬元科目均自行調整區域均炸裂改略了46億4198萬6千元三稅前淨利緣略12億2219萬5千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2409.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2431.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
整列一千萬元改列為十二億三千兩百一九萬五千元三金融保險成本營業總支出因水桶調整四轉投資計劃無列數五重大支建設事業三千六百四十四萬九千元照列六資金運用因依據營業收支金融保險成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大支建設事業等項之審查結果水桶調整通過決議十項 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2432.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2448.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
二、臺灣金融控股股份衍星公司、臺灣銀行股份衍星公司、臺銀燃射保險股份衍星公司、臺銀綜合證券股份衍星公司、業務計劃、因依據營業收支、金融保險成本、轉投資、重大資建設事業及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2449.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2455.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
2.營業收支1.營業總收入3,447億505萬8千元針對營業收入向下金融保險收入4,500萬元含臺銀人壽保險股份引進公司保費收入2,580萬元臺銀中華證券股份引進公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2466.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2469.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
證券經濟及承銷收入1920萬元區域均照列改列為34475058000元而營業總支出不安所得稅費用原列331173548000元減列一營業成本24100萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2486.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2503.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
一、臺灣銀行股份有限公司金融保險成本之利息費用兩億四千萬元二、臺銀人壽保險股份有限公司其他營業成本之投資性不動產費用一百萬元二、營業費用一千四百萬元一、業務費用四百萬元含臺灣銀行股份有限公司服務費用之理運費一百萬元修理培養醫保顧費一百萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2505.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2510.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
租金以利息支、交通及運輸設備租金100萬元、臺銀人壽保險股份演訓公司100萬元、坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑務坑 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2524.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2535.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
三、臺灣銀行股份引進公司其他營業費用至營業發展費用400萬元科目自行調整以上工具檢列2億5500萬元區域均造列改列為3309億1854萬8千元三、稅前經歷原列135億3151萬3…… |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2543.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2563.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
一百五十一萬元、增業三億元、改六一百三十八億、三千一百五十一萬元、三金融保險成本、營業總支出因應隨同調整、轉投資計劃有劣數、重大支建設事業、失業四千零一十五萬九千元造劣、資金運用因依據營業收支、金融保險成本、盈虧撥補、轉投資及重大支建設事業等向之審查結果隨同調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2564.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2575.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
補判預算、增加固定資產之建設改良擴充兩億七百二十七萬八千元及資金資轉投資十億四千九百五十五萬元在列通過決議三十二項宣傳筆 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2578.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2598.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好,各位委員請問對上次議事錄有無許異議?好,沒有異議,我們議事錄確定請議事長先讀今日議程邀請行政院龔秘書長明鑫、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲就:「行政院表示：因財劃法修正，114年度總預算須重編，進行專題報告，並備質詢。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2603.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2626.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們接著來介紹在場的委員我們林德福委員吳秉瑞委員我們介紹議會的官員行政院常務副秘書長李國興副秘書長那個秘書長龔明鑫因為今天在內政委會省他們的那個預算所以就請教接著我們行政院主計總處的陳淑姿主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2630.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2656.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
主計總處的公務預算處的徐永毅處長基金預算處的黃淑娟處長綜合統計處的林雅雯前任視察國事普查處的施敬發專委我們財政部莊翠雲部長國庫署的陳柏成署長負稅署的宋秀玲署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2658.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2661.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
公務署彭英偉署長國有財產署曾國基署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2665.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2677.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
財政資訊中心的張文希張主任歡迎大家我們今天議程會安排這個邀請行政院祕書長、我們行政院主計總處的陳主計長還有陳玲莊部長來討論就是有關這個行政院表示這個財劃修正114年度總預算要不要重編這個專題報告是因為在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2691.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2707.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
12月23日的時候行政院的發言人李慧芝有公開發言表示就是說這個財劃法通過以後明年總預算可能甚至需要重新編列這個是行政院在記者會裡頭的公開發言所以因為這樣子知識體態我們才特別提這個專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2710.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2710.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
提出專題報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2732.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2744.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我看報告很多都已經送過來了所以我們這三位報告的我們的官員就大概簡單的花個兩分鐘闡述一下然後我們委員就可以來進行這個質詢我們先請這個李副秘書長幫我們報告謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2757.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2773.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主席、各位委員、理事先生今天應邀列席貴委員會對於行政院表示因財劃法修正、114年度總預算須重編提出專題報告僅檢要說明如下中央政府總預算除了辦理國防、外交等事務外 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2774.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2788.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
為了提升國家競爭力並均衡地區的發展．尚需從國家整體的計畫統籌辦理相關的業務．包括推動六大區域產業等等的業務．那14年度總預算案雖然有剩餘209億元． |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2790.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2804.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
但是呢並計特別預算後稅務稅出仍然有差短1789億元且本院已合訂納編前瞻基礎特別預算的個案計劃因五年度及以後年度編列數總共達到4200多億元仍需回歸總預算來編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2810.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2830.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
中央政府的整體財政負擔仍然相當沉重大院113年12月20日三讀通過財政收支發放法的修正案中央需要再釋出財源3753億元占整體稅入9%且一般性補助款亦不得少於修正施行前一年度的2500億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2832.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2852.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
會嚴重影響到中央政府推動各項政策的財政能力本次修法後地方自有財源會大幅增加但是並沒有通盤考量到市權的劃分基於收入劃分要搭配市權來檢討一波合理的業務給地方辦理這樣才是 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2852.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2876.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
正確的那中央政府114年度總預算案已經送請大院審議那本院願意善盡說明之責希望大院能夠緊迫審議通過並且執行必利114年度各項政事及重大政策順利的推動那以上報告敬請各位委員、女士先生指教那祝大家健康快樂萬事如意謝謝好謝謝李副秘書長接著我們請行政院主計總長陳主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2889.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2901.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天要列席貴委員會第11屆第2會期第14次全體委員會．對於行政院表示：因財劃法修正．114年度總預算須重編提出專題報告只檢要說明實相 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2904.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2918.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
一大院113年12月20日深度通過財政措施緩緩法修正案中央須再釋出財源3753占總體稅率9%且一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前預算2501元編列占整體稅率約6%中央須透過相對收減稅出規模因應一般性補助款不能減少依法律依務則 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2930.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2949.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
皆屬依相關法令編列的經費．無法因應財政困難進行刪減．所以剪裂的範例只能局限在．其以稅出將嚴重衝擊中央施政的能力．以114年度總預算編列3兆1325億元為例．其中依法律義務．包括人事、社會保險、退伍．1兆8144億元．均無法刪減．稅出1兆3 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2955.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2970.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
需刪減28%將造成以核定上在執行中的各項計劃來臨危機．影響層面管化．包括國防安全．無法如期籌握各式重大武器裝備．將嚴重影響衝擊証券軍備．降低主戰裝備．搓散力．對國家安全影響甚至社會福利相關計劃． |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2979.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3007.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
涉及婦女、兒少、老人及福利、權益等相關﹑場經費不足﹑將嚴重衝擊全國性社會福利政策﹑推動及勞工勤領退休金權益﹑難以為家庭提供穩定支持﹑三、醫療服務相關計畫涉及民眾就醫權益﹑場經費不足﹑將衝擊全國性醫療政策﹑推動影響癌友、患病等民眾使用新藥及婦女人員獎勵等不利醫療服務品質提升﹑是勞工照顧﹑場預算不足﹑ |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3008.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3033.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
致應撥補勞保基金．恐嚴重衝擊勞保基金財務狀況．影響勞工勤領退休金的權益．五農業發展報告．辦理供養收購回料補貼．綠色環境幾戶農損救助等．堂推動資金會部署．恐嚴重衝擊對農民權益．六治安維護為因應毒品及炸棄新形態犯罪．守法權利．投入交講科技辦案之設備、構置及技術． |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3034.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3051.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
經濟等相關預算不足之因將直接衝擊到全國性資安維護．影響人民生活安全．其重大公共建設、軌道建設．鐵路立體化及治水等重大建設．至投資推動恐延遲．影響經濟成長、動能及城鄉均衡．發展．科技及產業發展相關計劃延遲推動．控使我國科技發展． |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3057.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3086.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
落後世界先進水準上市國際間科技競逐先機以及降低國際廠商來台設廠意願三本質修法後地方自籌財源將大幅增加甚至部分縣市貨幣中央統籌分配稅及一般性補助款以大於及113年稅出預算的規模無序在自籌財據以前隨事權移轉收入劃分以搭配事權檢討修正相關行政做法一波合理業務予以地方政府辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3087.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3116.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
是114年中央政府總預算克正與大院審議．截至12月30日．中央市3個部會主管．其中33個已經完成初步審議．令10個上陸續審議中．令地方政府預算已大部分完成審議．22個縣市．其中20個已在議會完成審議．僅剩2個縣市尚要完成審議．期限大院能進促審議．通過114年度總預算．臂力各項施政順利推動．以上報告進行．各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3117.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3144.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
委員你是先生指教祝大家健康快樂萬事如意謝謝謝謝主計長好那我們這個財政部的報告我們就參閱了都是照念的來請這個我們現在開始詢答這個發言前我們來先做一下宣告每位委員出席委員發言時間8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘然後列席的話就5分鐘10點截止登記現在我們請第一位林特輔委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3147.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3147.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
陳主計長、莊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3171.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3195.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
主席長,十年前立法院三讀通過修正財劃法,行政院發言人李慧芝在記者會上就表示說明年度總預算恐怕會受到嚴重的衝擊,甚至可能需要重編。上個禮拜三財委會開會答詢的時候,莊部長卻回答本席說:「我們有說過重編嗎?」 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3197.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3224.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
北京十分疑惑啊難道當天行政院記者會是AI的身為記者會嗎?你沒有聽到嗎?主計長當天記者會你也在座李慧芝旁邊請問你有聽到李花言人提到重編兩個字嗎?有沒有?有沒有?這個部分我是沒有注意到你沒有注意到?部長你沒有聽到? |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3227.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3243.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
委員 我想 預算的編列是非常重大的事情沒有 有沒有聽到嘛 這個部分 你有沒有聽到嘛 我沒有注意到這個 你沒有注意到 兩位都沒有注意到 行政院記者會 花妍能是代表行政院院長餒 不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3244.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3272.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
因為我們必須要說的是重編這個事情因為涉及到整個總預算收到立法院了你不要講了如果你有聽到議會的記者們也都有聽到那請問你為什麼部長你會沒有聽到記者都有聽到只有你沒有聽到我不是說我沒有聽到因為那一天他的意思就是說財劃法那天通過以後的三讀通過以後的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3273.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3294.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
對這個相關的一些施政會有嚴重的衝擊不要狡辯本席很少這麼生氣講實在話做事情你要面對現實包括主計長你在臺南當主計長的時候賴市長那時候你在當他的主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3295.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3314.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你是不是你的論文說是論文也是根據這個財劃應該要劃分財政要劃分有沒有主計長報告委員時空環境不一樣喔對換了個位置就換了個腦袋時空環境不一樣卓氏金輝就對了啦條件不一樣卓氏金輝就對了啦我們是薪水付不出來這麼嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3324.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3349.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
四年我們的超增一兆八千多億每年超增四千五百億你有沒有統計過但是報告委員超增是暫時性的暫時性但是每年都超增喔我們統計有12年有6年是短差的以上那個部長我再請教難道行政院記者會容許會後各說各話各自解讀嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3351.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3378.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
可以嗎我們沒有各自解讀也沒有各自解讀但是你們剛剛所講的包括你那天所講的就是各自解讀反之如果你也沒有聽到那是不是意味著財政部主計處都認為修法是事小還不到要總預算重編的地步是不是這樣子修法事小跟委員報告因為總預算行政院已經籌編完成並請送請大院審議目前大院也一直在審議當中對 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3379.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3386.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
暗示那天 對不對 行政院發言人所講的你們都是當耳邊風因為他是代表行政院院長 對不對部長、主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3391.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3409.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
財劃法三讀後：行政院不是開記者會說自愛難行．對明年總預算有嚴重的衝擊．不然就是拿原鄉預算、教育預算．以及金公教、加薪來威脅不同的群體．甚至於連國防預算． |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3410.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3433.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
御因的津貼都能用來恐嚇全民主計長：如果對明年總預算有衝擊為什麼行政院明知道財劃法在立法院上會期充分的溝通而且立法院也做成了主決議要財政部這個會期你們要提出版本到現在行政院還亂扣帽子 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3436.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3449.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
在代表多數民意的立法院身上那我請問主計長在這個時機點你認為行政院有沒有提出修法新版本的可能?會不會?會不會?你告訴我嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3453.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3469.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
目前針對那個立法院通過的一個財劃法目前行政院正在研究相關的一個因應的措施所以這個部分呢這個部分我們等行政院研究出來這個措施之後我們配合辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3469.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3489.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
那我請問你,如果行政院互遇失敗,事件也不如行政院預期一月到四月就要核定115年度這個施政方針以及總預算的籌編那我請問主計長,你認為115年度總預算編列有沒有困難度?有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3490.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3511.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
當然是有困難的原則上其實我們扣除一般性就是依法律義務一兆八我們是三兆一嘛114是三兆一一一四年度為例三兆一扣掉一兆八一法律剩下一兆三那就要減百分之三十左右好那個主計長是因為40年啊都沒有修的 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3512.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3528.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
財劃法代表多數民意的立法委員終於通過修法總統行政院就說倉促立法修法之前還說現在的版本是最好的版本那我請問主計長你認為現在的版本真的是最好的版本嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3529.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3546.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
以目前來講因為我們有補助現在是2500億一般性的補助這個部分就佔6%但是過去這段時間你們是看顏色在補助啦你像蘇貞昌高雄申請一個漁港3000多萬他補助81億 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3549.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3569.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
對不對?你們為什麼不檢討?補助81億勒?3000多萬補助81億如果真的最好的那我請問你為什麼賴總統在擔任台南市長的時候要強烈要求中央修財化法?當時的你也是台南市的主計處的處長到底支持還是反對賴市長? |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3575.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3590.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
你是支持還是反對賴市長你告訴我報告委員那時候台南市的狀況他是已經達到公債法的上限然後薪水發不出來的狀況那時候的情況和現在不一樣現在的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3590.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3591.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
所以說你認為： |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3607.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3626.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
你認為修財劃法這不是最好的版本因為面對將近40年沒有修訂的財劃法你認為沒有堅持推動修法和初心繼續提供總統修法迫切性的意見反而任意批評迫切修法代表多數民意的立委是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3627.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3643.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
不是批評立委而是針對現有的狀況如果這樣的修法將會造成行政院的一個在執行上有很大的一個困難因為他必須刪減將近30%那會嚴重影響到各項的一個重大的一個建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3645.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3666.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
大家心智度明部長上個禮拜本席質詢你的時候預算是不是要重編如果要重編就不用審預算了結果你回答114年就要開始了怎麼重編因為中央施政怎麼去推動部長按照行政院花園人的說法明年度總預算會受到嚴重的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3667.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3688.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
甚至於恐怕需要重編那媒體報導部長打你的臉行政院打你臉的這個媒體報導部長你打臉行政院的說法請問部長對於是不是要重編總預算的看法你看行政院是不是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3690.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3704.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
我那天已經跟委員報告114年在這個禮拜已經要開始了總預算也經過行政院籌編在大院審議當中各項施政都必須往前推進這個籌編他是知識體大的我覺得說得很清楚已經跟委員說明了 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3707.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3707.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3731.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3752.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
你說倉促修法改變現有財政的秩序影響各級政府財政的穩健這是另一個分配不均的開始那我請問部長修法前的財劃法是不是完全沒有分配不均的問題修法前的財劃法的情況我們都很了解因此是透過一般性補助款還有計劃型的補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3752.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3753.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
所以說你才會說 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3778.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3797.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
被卓院長稱為最好的版本是不是因為這樣所以行政院不願意提修法的版本跟委員報告對於有關財劃法不是不能調整但是我們財政部也一直在努力第一個財劃法的調整必須要兼顧地方財政需求立法院已經做過主決議而且要你們修你們都不提 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3800.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3821.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
處理好以後你們又來推翻：講三道四說三道四部長對於財劃法三讀通過後對中央施政的相關自愛你說財政部跟主計總處正在演繹中那我請問部長如果最後的結果還是要維持修法所謂的自愛難行財政部有沒有信心來克服有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3821.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3847.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
對於相關的制裁的部分剛剛主總在報告裡面已經分析得相當清楚了那對於有沒有要提財劃法的修正我們已經在之前已經想過財劃法的修正必須要爭取最大的一個共識來能夠減少一些爭議這個部分財政部一直在努力而且把相關的指標也濃縮後續就是權重已經調整的係數等等要去進一步的討論我覺得這個部分是財政部一直在努力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3847.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3858.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那如果可以克服你認為財政部所堅持的水平垂直分配的指標會不會出現偏差如果不能克服會不會考慮你要辭職下台 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3859.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3882.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
對於我個人的質問並沒有任何的堅持但是我覺得把這個財劃法能夠做一個更好的調整一直是我們努力的方向其實大家都是相同的看法來我最後一個議題那個114年度課稅收入編列2.77兆創歷史新高而且比113年度預算成長19.88%那我請問部長修法後的財劃法對未來年度的課稅收入會不會有影響會不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3888.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3901.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
稅收入第一個我們在課稅收入的時候我們是先估比如說以所得稅來說我是先估全國的然後再按那個財劃法的規定的比例撥到專案統籌分配稅款進去當然是在比例的變動當然它的額度就會變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3902.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3931.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
其實事實上根據立法院預算中心對財政部評估報告指出114年度的總預算案課稅收入佔稅入結構比例是87.97%也就是支應各項正式支出最主要的財源但是課稅收入的準確度從110年度開始每年課稅收入時增數遠超過預算數更矛盾的是114年度 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3933.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3940.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
在預期經濟成長是3.26%第一113年的3.9%9下所編列的課稅收入反而是113年度增加19.88%更創歷史新高那部長因為失準的課稅收入預算數預計的經濟成長 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3956.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3957.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我想我取他下次再問 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3986.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3987.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
財政部莊部長陳主計長委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4009.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4033.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
兩位早齁財政收支劃分法當然如果要檢討是要談收跟支啦但這一次倉促修法最嚴重的問題是只有談收沒有談支那收的部分還只有談水平分配垂直分配裡面都沒有經過詳細的討論那我想請教這個立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4038.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4062.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
10月20日三讀之後現在送到行政院了沒?目前來說我們並沒有收到任何有收到這個條文的訊息那複密法是不是也一樣沒有收到這個法律的修正目前還沒收到吧?收到之後行政院有幾天的時間內可以提複密 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4064.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4071.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
是不是10天內法律的規定所以就算最快今天收到要 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4073.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4096.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
決定要不要復議也是1月8日、1月9日的事情就像加上禮拜六禮拜天所以事實上雖然這個三讀通過了但是還沒有生效現在聽起來行政院好像是要提復議復議完之後有可能還要再釋憲目前要走的是這樣最大做被詬病的也報告裡面有寫到 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4097.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4114.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
沒有支的部分啦所謂收支支就是說市權要做哪一些增加的開支所以要多花哪一些錢啊所以每一個地方政府要多得到多少錢這是不是支的部分是不是這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4116.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4144.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
是,這個部分因為我們收入的部分就是移過去一個3753就是9%再加上一般性補助6%移過去15%但是以前我們承接省政府業務有11%的部分這相關的一個事權並沒有做移轉所以這個部分在如果事權留在中央那沒有相關的收入來支應這相關的一個相關的執行會有相當的一個困難以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4145.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4161.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
好 那一個最大的問題剛剛老師有別的委員提到這個問題他說財政宣誓公安法很久了都沒有修啦這也確實一個事實其實是從這個精神的時候李登輝先生當總統的時候修過一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4162.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4176.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
之後就到現在後面李登輝當總統還有一段期間再來就是陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統到現在賴清德先生擔任總統中間我記得應該是30出頭年 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4180.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4187.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
中間國民黨當立法院的多數也非常多屆啊事實上到第9屆、第10屆這兩屆才民進黨多數第6屆、第7屆、第8屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4195.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4209.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
國民黨占多數的時間是很長喔尤其第7屆的立委啊立法院113席民進黨總共才20幾席27席其他都是國民黨的那時候占了70幾席不得了 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4210.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4229.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那在這樣的狀況之下那時候的在野黨就是民進黨的先制首長也在說要修財政收支劃分法那就剛剛就主計長講的因為那時候包括現在的總統當然台南市長都發現如果依照當時的分配真的拿不出錢來連要繳這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4233.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4259.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
要給年終獎金都有問題嘛所以我記得那個時候都還有預借的這個制度地方政府跟財政政府先預借錢來發年終獎金然後過了年終再用隔年的去補公式相同那為什麼那時候的財政狀況跟現在的財政狀況差這麼多就是因為發家庭的人經濟生長到底做了有好事沒好事嘛馬英九在當總統的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4261.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4285.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我第8屆立委的第一年啊國家總預算才一兆四千億欸一兆五千多億啊現在三兆一千億是多了一倍多喔所以當然因為收入不一樣從疫情開始之後台灣的經濟在世界上可以說是翹楚每一年每一年都很快的速度在增加所以如果照公式來分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4286.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4312.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
現在地方政府得到的錢就像你講的一年已經盈餘六百多億了當然是全部的加總在一起包括我所在的新北市連續四年財政結算都是plus都是正數吧不僅沒有欠錢還有能力可以還錢那在這樣的狀況之下如果好好的討論權責該如何劃分收跟資應該如何劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4315.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4341.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
當然這個事應該是可以好好來討論我們也願意討論我記得媒體的揪漏院長也有跟在一檔說是不是再給我們一段時間到了明年的5月以前絕對可以提出行政院的版本結果在一檔不肯說這個會期非通過不可結果通過這個東西只有把收的部分劃走一大部分吃的部分都沒談 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4343.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4365.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
照現在的試算版新北市可以增加375億當然如果站在我地方政府站在地方民意代表的態度越多越好我從別的地方搶來搶越多越好像馬祖一個人可以三十幾萬最好為什麼我們新北市只有兩萬六一個人的平均數啊那為什麼差了十幾倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4367.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4390.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
這個都是水平分配上面公式要去處理要去彌平的事情嘛結果都沒有討論啊沒有機會討論啊不過這個國家總體發展的情況來看你把中央政府的財政能力拿走之後沒有辦法調劑營需啦就是強者越強台北市越來越強他越抖越多越來越好越來越有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4393.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4420.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
但是一些財政狀況比較困苦的縣市事實上就沒有辦法有辦法來有錢來處理一些問題像我的出生地臺東像澎湖縣像中南部的這些農業縣市或是說持續建設的一些過去縱南清北產生後遺症的這些縣市就沒有辦法去克服嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4421.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4446.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
是沒有錯是委員說的是好那說這麼多之後再問一個問題他現在給你調整了他現在給你這樣弄了要把你拖走3700多億了如果114年的總預算假設過這幾天或假設最好的狀況這一個會期延到1月21號以前通過或是沒有通過明年開春2月1號再任之後到2月3月來補通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4449.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4475.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
你的困難是在要如何解決?像現在中央政府平均都要找到20幾%那每一個施政項目如何去調劑?如何去調配?這一部分主計長你有什麼意見?因為相關的一個因應措施行政院目前正在研究還是必須要等相關因應措施我知道你的相關因應措施就是復議最多就是提視線嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4476.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4484.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
那假設這兩個最後沒有辦法通過的時候你這個預算114年的預算你要如何執行我現在是問這個問題啊最壞的狀況來講的話你要怎麼辦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4488.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4508.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
坦白說如果說我們預算通過我們其實是照案執行但是我們如果將來是必須面對要有刪減的部分像預算的籌編其實每個計畫要討論是要發生相當的多的時間那每個部會要減哪些的計畫還是必須主一的一個討論然後就針對這個部分他哪個計畫要保留哪個計畫要刪減 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4512.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4533.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
然後來做討論所以這個部分也相當耗費時間了所以這個部分就是有它的一個困難度存在以上說明所以意思是說你現在都還沒有討論好你現在心裡也沒有答案啊沒有那現在這樣子這個攤子要如何解決啊其實我是蠻同意有一些學者的看法當然不是全部啦就這個案子不要附屬啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4536.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4557.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
通過一個你們自愛難行的 照理來講 這樣憲政的建議就應該多數黨要發 在國外的多數黨要發動倒閣嘛所以院長是不是不要附屬 可不可以考慮不要附屬啊我建議是不要附屬啦 如果以我對憲法的了解 不要附屬當然很有爭議 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4559.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4577.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那那個爭議就把它提升到憲政結構看看如何處理啊啊你綁在這邊你被拉走了那麼多錢你的預算已經在這裡初步審查已經經過了馬上要經過二讀要三讀了結果跟他現在給你通過這個法律漢格根本無法執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4579.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4588.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以我其實以我的瞭解跟我的建議我是希望不要附屬不要附屬當然就會衍生一個重大的憲政爭議那這個憲政爭議如何處理讓憲法的學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4593.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4614.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
讓憲法的這個憲政機構之間來做這個把這個問題凸顯出來不然這個問題今年會遇到明年又可能遇到喔明年再給你提期貨法案雖然說不得維生性預算的提案可是現在都用法律案硬要把你搞死啊所以今年這樣明年那還可能再繼續搞你捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4615.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4629.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以希望能把我的話帶到我建議行政院不要附屬這個法案的那衍生的憲政爭議由憲法機構循憲政程序解決這是我的意見麻煩你們轉達謝謝謝謝委員我們謝謝吳秉銳委員今天我們請戴氏報委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4651.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4660.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
謝謝主席 邀請行政院的副秘書長李副秘書長以及財政部長以及主計長陳主計長三位長官好我是請教行政院的長官副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4674.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4679.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
你們行政院發言人大聲講啊說預算要重編了到底馬上過兩天就變成114年了要重編嗎?請問要重編嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4690.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4714.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
要重編嗎?根委員報告那據我們了解他的原意是對沒有明定施行日期所產生的嚴重衝擊表達憂心並不是要重編並沒有要重編你們要去更正啊到目前為止都沒有更正這一句話所以他的原意是這樣子所以沒有要重編不然我們在審什麼?審頭一天嗎?你們都重編了我們要審什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4720.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4721.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
都可以呼呼咧 大家呼呼咧啊然後你看喔 你們看喔 我不知道主計長啊 你這裡面啊 開始這樣 整個 整個台灣 整個中華民國的會社出口 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4735.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4740.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
開始就估摸 你看喔 行政院估計15個機關、專案受影響加起來6300多億 還有修法以後公共建設受影響1200多億加起來7500多億 總管委只不過挖3700多億 怎麼你們列出來就7599億 來主計長你想怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4757.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4762.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
你嚇人你嚇人不是這樣嚇的嚇壞老百姓啊把台南老百姓都嚇死啊我們總共就是分給地方3753億結果你一天列就列7600億了你到底是什麼口惡老百姓喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4772.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4787.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
你是恐嚇人家喔?主計長啊?你出話就恐嚇喔?我們是以3兆1,114年3兆1扣掉1兆8了就是1法律1,剩下1兆3那1兆3裡面的各項計畫必須3減28%這樣所以各計畫影響第一個我們原則是平均3減因為我們還沒討論到底3減哪一個計畫所以我們必須詳細討論你到底討論沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4800.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4807.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
所以目前還沒有討論,但是要討論的時候就是說目前一般性通案刪減28%,3753就要刪減28%每一個計劃都要刪減28%,這樣就7599個不對啊你總共就3700多億而已啊,你怎麼會變7599億啊,為什麼這樣子呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4825.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4827.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這個副秘書長啊你也當過副主席長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4851.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4879.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
你們今天是報告給我看,總共一頁,一張紙啦有夠不負責任啦,對主席大不敬啦,對我們財委大不敬啦今天來講,叫你說,叫你提一個因應財劃法修正,你們要需要重編,是我要重編,因為你們說重編結果你們總會有一頁,然後跟有關係的只有在第三段寫了一下簡單來講就是不接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4880.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4902.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
你的意思百萬文講就是不接受那個龔秘書長是不是這個意思不接受跟委員說明齁再次的說明不接受是不是發言人的原意是對未明定施行日期所會產生的嚴重衝擊表達憂心阿就是不接受嘛就是不接受嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4904.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4925.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
對嗎?你是不接受?我們是全國最高的民意機構通過的法律案然後你就一下子就草草的幾個字不接受意思是不接受不接受好我們來看那你們準備怎麼做?行政院準備怎麼做?要不要提復議?要不要?請問你?要不要提復議? |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4929.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4954.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
跟委員說明一下因為行政院還沒有收到那個財劃法修正的公文阿你真的講不接受嗎那修到以後呢你都已經收到就提示賦予對不對我們收到以後我們會在憲政賦予的權利之下那合法的秩序之下尋求各種救助阿你一定把他賦予你絕對輸的阿阿所以再提示憲好重點在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4956.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4956.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
講清楚嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4956.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4957.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那這個在這段時間都不能實施喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4957.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4959.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
是不是這樣子?胡副市長 是不是在你提福利事項這段時間 這個新的財劃法不能實施是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4959.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4960.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我問你是不是?我們是會循著合法的憲政程序來提各種問題你當過副主計長你知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4982.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5008.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
現在來講如果你提示線那整個就是要Pending啊這個等於3750幾億就暫時的Pending在那裡如果再配合那個已經沒有法源的大法官的會議用8個9的8大法官如果要把他解釋說暫時處分啊就忽忽忽忽忽忽忽忽忽忽就這個樣子啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5010.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5013.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那你要考慮一下喔現在預算還在審喔預算還在審喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5016.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5022.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
因為剛剛主計長也說明過了那個是他們挑出來受影響的計畫那裡面的影響的金額的話約略會有28%受到影響並不是全部 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5046.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5047.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
7,599億幫你通緝是這個樣子主計長你可以看 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5058.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5076.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
請問你有沒有對各縣市的主計人員下達命令比如說臺北市、台南市、高雄市這些主計人員說你們要配合修法有沒有做這個事有沒有有沒有下達命令 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5077.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5079.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
目前正在會長當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5103.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5113.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我去問過幾個縣市了他們說錢只要下來他們馬上辦追加預算地方政府一點都沒有問題可以辦追加預算一聲立下辦追加預算問題都沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5122.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5135.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以我強烈的執意要講不要亂砍計畫新的補助要砍哪一些你剛講7599億這樣就亂嚇人我們來看來其實阿要調整的就可以調整阿台電郭志輝部長講了N次阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5146.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5175.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
他可以借錢啊你為什麼給他追加預算一千億呢暫緩啊台電一千億的增資暫緩啊潛艦兩千八百億國安委員會已經講了分三期不要一次通過兩千八分三期九百多暫緩以緩計期加起來就三千億了然後經濟部、蘇貨部亂補助一通加一加 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5178.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5183.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
三千七百多億輕輕地都挖用不用心根本不是回到第一哪裡有這個東西你們就是用這個來恐嚇老百姓來整老百姓你看有租金補貼你看有掃紙畫你看有污水處理恐嚇老百姓 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5206.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5213.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
因為你們沒有認真去思考怎麼樣用你們的角度然後配合修法通過給他最適當的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5216.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5233.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
對不對 結果一來就說 啊大筆劃 你們都印象喔 大家統統砍28% 啊大家拼命在叫 沒有人啊 沒有立法委員說要去砍國防預算啊 沒有啊 所以這個國防預算2947是假的勒 啊勞保的補補1200億 啊這個是假的勒 啊社會主宰補貼400億 啊這個是假的勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5240.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5244.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
根本就不是這樣子啊!你就隨便下來!你們專門啊!主計長啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5248.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5256.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我完全是政治鬥爭的語言喔我們要砍一砍去找可以找到錢不會影響民生的不會影響國防的對你怎麼影響一筆一揮哇 通影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5274.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5298.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這個叫做隨便亂講,就是用政治語言陳主計長,原來我對你印象還不錯但是你提供這個表,老實講讓我對你的評價腰斬腰斬啦,你這個叫政治語言啦用政治語言嚇老百姓說你看,通靈影響齁,燒紙貨影響齁,治安影響齁,污水處理影響齁沒有立委看你這個東西啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5303.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5318.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我剛講的回到我剛那一頁經濟部的2000億砍掉啦不要急啦因為他自己可以借錢啊他有辦法而且你還有稅計剩餘來部長財政部長請問你今年稅計剩餘有多少稅計剩餘是在組總這邊來計算的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5326.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5326.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
到現在為止114年呈現的是158億 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5342.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5369.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
一百一一四一百五十八一一三是七千多億但是七千多億這個部分那個部分是因為第一個我要支付三三千九百多億的一個那個預後的一個相關的金額那是特別預算還有一個就是我支應我今年一一四的五百億好五百億這個部分我去我支援一一四年度的預算還有一個我我有一個那個以前非營利事業的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5370.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5370.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以我們要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5389.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5391.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這是一個資源分配的問題我們三讀通過的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5419.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5442.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
你按照一定的程序去救濟。如果到最後輸了,你還是要照做啊。你還是要想辦法啊。對不對?我剛剛說過了啊。不是所有的這些民生的去砍他嘛。我已經再強調一遍了。經濟部肥肉那麼多,亂補助。還要補助NVIDIA。NVIDIA有多少啊?幾兆美金啊?還稀罕你那麼一點點錢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5444.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5448.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
臺電的話那將來也會影響到電價臺電他可以去借錢他有辦法借錢他有辦法經營根本就不是問題我跟你講所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5473.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5498.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
最後一句話主計長對外面溝通不要用政治語言你列出來這個表就是政治語言這是政治鬥爭用的我對你今天的提出這個表表達非常強烈的不滿跟遺憾不要這樣子因為你也假說沒有認真去討論要認真跟他們討論各部會議你讓你解你才會解 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5498.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5500.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
謝謝賴司保委員 謝謝接著我們請郭國文委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5531.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5533.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
謝謝主席,有請主計長跟財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5543.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5564.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
委員好主計長好部長好我想今天我們委員會要討論的關鍵字就是重編還有一個是重修重編總預算是不是要重編重修財劃法是不是要重修那重編的話當然是主計長的責任重修的話就是我們部長要去面對的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5565.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5586.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
好,到底要不要重編一個關鍵的問題就是說,我們看看這個圖表。主席長,我這個圖表是不是正確的?本來要有一個施政方針,然後才會有各部會進行概算。概算完以後行程之後,到8月底的時候要送預算進入立法院,是不是這樣子?要例行大概8個月之久,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5587.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5609.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
是,那個施政方針的一個制定然後我們從編,要籌編預算大概就是要需要3到5個月所以我剛剛也談到了就是所有計畫如果要刪減也必須要跟各部會逐一去討論對,逐一討論,要重新來一遍所以說這也就順您口頭所說的自愛難行這自愛難行不只是剛剛的預算啦剛剛講到說什麼那個潛進預算2800億2800億不是本來就要分三期的嗎?不是,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5616.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5617.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
總預算如果通過的話你就是召喚執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5643.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5660.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
照案執行之後後面有一個救濟的程序暫時處分先復議暫時處分然後再釋憲嘛對不對這三種狀況的話個人估計如果按照上次執權行使法的擴權法案到整個那個大法官會議解釋出來之後憨不啷噹大概8 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5661.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5676.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
半年之久啦5月17通過之後到半年之久到10月25號所以半年之久的時候你要因應的就是兩雙軌嘛兩個路線第一個我們來執行啦你現在所編列的總預算照案通過你就按照這種方式執行也就是沒有3減3753億的狀況下去執行對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5680.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5702.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
是不是?照案執行就這樣子嗎?我也不能照案執行,我必須先控管,不然他就檢查完。就控管,萬一事件沒有過,然後3753就在後半年的時候來執行嘛。所以說你現在是雙軌並進的方式嘛。如果那3753放在後面,如果萬一事件沒有執行的話,那3753就要開始處理嘛,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5702.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5712.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那3753處理之後呢接下來呢後續的部分你還有面臨一個雙軌的問題也就是明年開始你要編總預算啊是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5714.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5732.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
那你是不是一樣要雙軌進行?是不是?一個是屬於如果假設事件有成功的話也就是說或許認為大法官會議解釋說這個通過的財政收支方法基本上是違憲的話那你是不是按照原來的假案對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5733.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5754.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
那麼議案的部分呢是不是變成說如果說事件失敗的話那是不是你還有另外一個可能性就是說你要編那是不是你不是告訴本席明年的這個預算是不是要編兩種走兩種途徑對不對所以實際執行是有他的困難在對阿是不是要用雙軌的方式嘛我問你嘛要面對這個問題嘛是 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5755.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5767.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
但是中央部會各個部會編兩種預算嘛對不對那是不是以後的縣市政府也要編兩種的預算你說跟地方的主計人員是這樣告知 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5768.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5796.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
有可能啊因為這種屬於不確定的狀態嘛屬於可能凍結的狀況嘛凍結的狀況的情況底下你經過半年持久很有可能一個呢走向有效一個走向無效嘛是不是所以不論是今年的明年的預算的執行面也好或者呢明年的預算的編列面也好都會面臨雙軌的部分主計長你是不是要拆開四種可能性來去進行明年的整個預算編列與執行是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5796.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5818.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所以我們本身就說他在編預算、抽編預算方面會有很大的一個困難說很大的困難嘛講白一點更何況你剛剛講了3到5個月讓你整個四限案明年如果按照我剛剛推估半年之後你到說3753要執行你說要重編有可能嗎?因為3到5個月不是到年底了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5819.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5848.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
主計長你要直接的講出你的困難點啊因為你現在沒有辦法重編嘛你現在沒有辦法重編嘛還是你要進行重編不可能嘛不可能的情況底下你要等到四限完以後再重編的話那不是到年底了嗎對不對是不是主計長你要回答我不要點頭啊是是這樣子嘛所以非常的可能自然難行的情況底下你要講清楚你要講清楚所以你等到四限暫時的狀態你也沒有辦法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5849.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5869.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
事項結束之後我剛剛憨不爛當說6個月如果它是7個月8個月呢9個月10個月呢你還有重編的時間嗎有沒有就沒有了啊對那如何重編依照你現在的狀況你也沒有辦法重編啊不是嗎對不對主委長你要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5870.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5895.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
是目前如果說是現在未定的狀態那我必須先控管3753不能執行好這是一個關鍵問題嘛好那你今天你今天昨天在報紙上又有提到說如果說錢要隨同事權要隨同錢來做移轉嘛昨天有提到這個嘛要修正所謂的這個行政行政作用法嘛好那你口中的行政作用法是哪些法 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5897.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5917.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
例如說有關那個地方制度法相關事權的一個還有一個相關的例如說龍寶啊老寶相關的一個負擔的一個機關的一個修改負擔的修改也就是說應該下放給地方還要下放給地方嘛老寶啦龍寶啦等等還有地方制度法的事權的一個下放責任的下放錢的下放好那問題來了那個莊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5921.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5937.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
委員長,你之前一直講說不應該倡訴立法,你跟地方政府一直有在進行溝通嗎?對不對?你覺得你這個地方溝通還會不會持續進行?原來我們溝通大概就是指標的部分已經把80幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5938.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5959.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
幾個指標都濃縮有個共識唯一沒有共識是三個我想那個指標的定義我們之前花很多那是橫向的部分嗎每一個指標對要不然就指標背後的含義大家要能夠就一個權重比嘛比清然後才能夠彙整加下來接下來就是權重權重以及調整系數因為其實我們在跟地方政府討論的時候地方政府的意見都能夠充分的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5960.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5988.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
比如說人口的部分部分縣市也告訴你說你不能只用單一人口數因為人口裡面有結構的問題沒有我只問您說你會不會持續跟他們做溝通還有包括地方制度法你有沒有打算要修地方制度法你要保留一個重修的可能性嘛有沒有可能因為為什麼部長我提醒你一點如果說將來真的有要執行所謂的這3753例的時候那個困擾可能不是你喔地方政府很大困擾喔是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5989.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6004.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
如果今天拿到的錢是直接把它分掉福利那很好處理啊可是今天的錢如果是要執行事情的話那要耗費很多的人力欸還有包括他今年度的施政計畫當中有沒有包括這3753億啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6006.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6021.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
因為在那個中央統籌分配稅款我們會在這個年度開始前的四個月之前就要通知各地方政府次年可以分得多少那他就根據這樣子去編列預算所以他原來的預算裡面並沒有含這個3753億嘛他工作計畫都沒有這些他拿到這個錢要怎麼規劃 對不對所以說你從這個角度來說也是自然難行嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6031.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6039.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
所以那個部長我要跟您說的是說你在之前的溝通的那個部分著重於水平分配那接下來是中央的這個分配的配置的情況底下或許將來他們遇到的問題說其實我真的不需要這麼多錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6055.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6074.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
⋯⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6075.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6086.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
現在說宏觀調控的部分 剩下兩個可能性嘛一個是一般性的補助 一個是計畫性的補助嘛 對不對計畫性的補助應該沒有什麼太大的問題啊因為主控權在你嘛 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6088.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6107.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
是嗎?那一般性的補助因為已經被匡列可是你當初一直講說因為行政院主計處一直講說114年度的是2051億好像你感覺上次叫115年所謂這個法才會執行一樣但事實上不得少於修正施行前的一年113年度其實是2303億 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6109.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6131.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
對不對是23031正確的講法是23031對啊是23031不是2051嘛所以這種情況底下我必須說如果說你這個一般性補助應該沒有也不是說毫無條件說要補就補嘛你總是要有一個執行的標準嘛它的效率它的執行率要怎麼樣你要不要給這筆錢有沒有一個標準在 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6133.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6162.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
因為一般性補助主要是在於均衡就是說有不均衡的部分我們給他一些的協助所以主要是第一個限制有差短的部分我們優先來補助那第二個就是說我們會補助他教育、社會還有基本設施相關的一個部分那他錢都已經夠了這些的補助應該也就不用了所以他主要的一些項目都已經不用了所以你要把一般性補助跟這個所謂的這個統籌的部分重疊的部分你要抓出來大家多少億你有沒有抓過 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6163.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6173.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
有那個基本設施相關的補助是1042那差短補助目前已經很少了剩下1100這個2000多億當中還有1042是重疊的這個就是以後可以縮減的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6179.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6185.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
另外一個部分我必須要跟你講你這個主計長擔子很重我剛剛講說你要走雙軌未來走雙軌現在走雙軌之外你現在還面臨兩個問題行政權有他的行政權政策規劃的主張要落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6196.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6220.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
立法院現在是在野多數他也想要透過這個立法的方式來指揮你行政權譬如講最近又有多一個之前的禁法補助多了225億之前這一個公糧補助多了90億最近的健保費65歲免健保費要多65億也就是說落選的總統候選人他要完成他的政見透過立法的方式來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6222.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6234.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
當選的總統候選人也有他的政見要執行啊你變成要執行兩個一個當選的一個是落選的三七五三一啊對他們來說是輔選的也就是說他們未來要輔選他們的那個縣市首長的選舉啊也就是當選的政見也要落實那個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6242.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6244.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
如果執行當政者的這個狀況還有落選的狀況那你會不會舉債 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6254.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6258.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
這個舉債的部分要請財政部來好來財政部來15%嘛總共我跟你算過啦2685億嘛舉債其實我想各位委員也都重視所謂的財政紀律不輕易舉債而且公共債務法裡面也有流量跟存量的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6277.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6290.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
雖然25%全部補,取代到2685你還是28%的3753你還是補助不到嘛,還是差1000億嘛而且財政要有韌性財政紀律要維持嘛那我問你現在財政紀律有辦法有維持嗎當選要落實他的政見啊,落選要落實他的政見啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6296.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6318.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
財政要有一定的空間留著不能全部把它用可是你要面對這個政治的現實啊比如說你就像發生疫情等等的時候必須國家要有一個財政的能力來去應用那是後面的部分你還有一個舉債2.8兆當然是預留未來變數我可以理解嘛但是現階段你就面臨一個雙重的問題落選要落實他的政見當選要落實他的政見否則的話你難道把當選的政見不執行要執行落選的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6323.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6323.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝主席我們請主記長陳主記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6357.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6372.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
主計長早安我覺得你還是那個綜合老實的主計長還是要給你加油鼓勵那我想就是延續郭國文委員的一個議題我想財劃法不是不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6373.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6373.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6390.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6406.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
可以有機會來修正那可是現在就是說在三讀通過了以後那你有沒有想到就是說這個財劃法因應的一個方式他可能走向視線還是走向公投還是走向修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6407.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6427.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
這個其實都需要時間。主計長你覺得就是說如果在未來我們假設他其實是就有一個視線那行不通的時候那就有一個公投那在未來在這麼短的一個時間內有沒有辦法再重編這個預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6429.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6449.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
原則上我們是因為預算整個是相當耗費時間的一個預算抽編所以一般我們大概都是需要將近5個月左右那之前的施政方針的討論更不用說那所以這個部分呢我們在將來如果一定要刪減的時候我們也是必須要跟部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6450.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6464.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
每個計劃去做討論到底每個要刪減多少但是如果一般性的原則就是說通案刪減的部分就是28%那如果說我這一項不刪減其他就是要提高刪減的可能為什麼不刪減是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6465.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6492.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
是,我想那個主委長在這裡我們提到的一個國防安全還有社會福利醫療的一個服務就是說我們的心藥我們的癌症用藥其實這個都需要中央的一個補助這個不是勤勞啊這個現實存在的就是勞工的照顧還有我的農業我必須要為台南講話在這一次的一個財劃法的一個分配裡頭台南是一個重災區啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6494.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6515.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
您也非常的清楚,那台南以農業為主就是說在它的土地面積換算它的占比如果從本來的20%那降低到10%的話其實我們的農業發展是受限於很大很大的一個未來性那重大的公共建設還有科技跟產業的一個發展其實有時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6516.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6530.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我每天在那個財政委員會裡頭那這個禮拜是那個陳醫生委員召委那上個禮拜是我當召委我有時候都會覺得就是說到底這個我有時候聽聽聽聽的都錯亂掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6533.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6554.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
到底什麼是對的什麼是不對的可是真正的就是沒有錢嘛真正的就是說中央被掏了3753億以後那到了地方地方他其實多出來這些錢可是事實上這些事誰來做這個有時候就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6555.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6555.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6586.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6586.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6604.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6605.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6631.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6653.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你不能減少的法定的移﹖排除不能減少的一個法定那個預算1.8兆這個已經就是說我們知道就是說你所有的所有的應該是說人事費用啦人事費用還有這個退休的這個58%裡頭這個全部都不能減了可是在這裡我們看到主計總處他 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6655.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6678.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
會影響到的包括了15項的一個計劃型還有基本需求還有10項的公共建設還有科技的發展這個總共已經非常清楚算出來就是要7599億也就是說在這將近7600億的計劃裡頭我們要砍掉一半的經費那主席長我想請教你如果砍掉一半的一個經費的話那怎麼辦呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6681.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6693.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
這個部分主要是這樣子因為我們如果是今年度3兆1扣掉1兆8與法定1我們還剩下1兆3那1兆3我們去要減掉3753大概要減28% |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6697.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6717.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
但是如果說我們有現在說國防經費我們不減那國防經費不減那這個列為不減那我其他項目就必須相對提高減剩37%那你如果說我現在我的公共建設不減或者我的科技發展不減那我其他的相對又要再往上提升 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6717.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6744.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以這個部分呢他三減的百分比是根據討論的結果說看哪些項目他是不要減哪些項目要減那如果哪些項目不減其他項目他減的百分比就一定會大於28%可是主計長現在每一個委員會其實都不斷的在審就是我們114年的一個年度的預算但是審過了以後那你就是說要減不減在這個過程裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6747.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6771.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
我們需要多少的一個時間來做這些處理我們預計一般我們一個預算的籌編大概都是3到5個月還是要3到5個月 他說我們必須要跟部會相對的一直在做討論是 討論檢討說哪些計畫要減哪些計畫不要減是這樣所以我們預先必須 主計長 這個有沒有違憲如果你慢了5個月有沒有違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6773.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6787.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
因為他是分配每個月一般這要看財政部他整個撥款的分配如果說我在今年度如果他是今年生效我在今年我有分配給他3753他就符合規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6791.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6818.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以這個也不會影響到說中央的一個政策還是地方政府的一個運作這五個月裡面會不會影響到這個部分還是會影響因為為什麼有一些經費你如果要減你中央必須要先相對的控管起來不然到時候你用了那到時候沒有的一個經費可以三減那這就會有問題所以這個部分在執行之初就一定是要先控管起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6818.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6818.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6838.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6855.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所有在場的一個官員在提到了就是在下一頁我們都看到了這個財劃法的一個修法排擠到中央的一個政策其實這個都不是恐嚇也不是情樂我們看到了公共建設還有科技發展這個1206億里頭的一個計劃案 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6859.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6886.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
其實適用在中央留意的一個改善跟調適的一個計畫就158億還有龍田水利橫跨的永續發展50億還有整體性的一個滯洪花那個黃災這個46億還有汙水處理汙水處理的一個190億這個本來在我的將軍我有一個海淡廠160億即將就是已經那個都是已經結標了那這個會不會受影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6888.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6908.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這個部分當然如果我們必須刪減經費對縣市的補助第一個因為必須要做刪減那刪減大概可能第一個就是要減少補助的一個比率或者是說延後往後延長完成的一個期限所以這個必然是受到影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6909.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6910.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
主計總處陳主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6929.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6941.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
如果我們規劃調整2025的總預算的一個做法跟時間就像你講的就是需要五個月的時間那我們利用追加減預算可能這樣做嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6943.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6961.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
要看將來我們救濟程序的情形是如何啦這個部分當然就是說一定是會影響到嘛這個你應該要把這個影響到民生的權益的這一些問題他可能就是讓這整個社會進入一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6962.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6984.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
快速然後就是一個是跟全沒有辦法好好的去就是做討論的時候這些事情該如何處理這個我覺得你們都必須要非常明確的說出來而不是就是說擠牙膏式的我們問你們是什麼你的困難在哪裡你才講出來我跟你講這個國家是大家的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6985.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6985.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
拜訪議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7005.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7031.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
就是主計長就是說修法他沒有通盤的考量事前的一個劃分那我們把錢徵取到地方回到地方然後就像我們非常清楚這個礦區稅、土地稅全數回到地方增加了守得稅跟營業稅一柱分配的一個稅的一個比例都沒有調整規劃支出的一個事項這個其實是我們擔心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7032.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7051.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
在中央之前承接省府的一個那個業務的時候我們的老龍津貼這個195億這事情誰來做這個勞健保惠用915億事情誰來做還有就是說在我們直轄市這個省立學校的350億還有我們的鼠立醫院的450 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7054.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7068.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
其實如果一併回到各個地方政府來辦理的時候 這個相關的業務的調整跟移交的時間 那你們預計就是說起碼需要多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7069.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7091.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
因為它有一部分譬如說勞健保、勞勞津貼這些都涉及到修法的一個部分那這必須要經過修法譬如說有地方制度法還有一個全民健保相關的一個保險法還有勞工保險條例這些等的修正所以這個時間上是比較長 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7093.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7119.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我想我的時間已經到了最後我再給這個主委長看到了一個這個是我們整理出來就是說在這一次的修法裡頭其實國民黨民眾黨兩黨的這個二修財劃法那非常清楚看到我們如果以苗栗縣為主的話這個苗栗縣以下所有分配的一個那個金額都是比較少的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7120.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7148.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這是一個非常有趣的一個議題還有就是說在六都裡頭的爭比那我們是墊底的這個龍躍縣就是被削弱的土地面積跟龍躍的需求啊縱北、青南、寄馬再次的上演我不是只有為台南講話我也為我們相對的就是我們的爛兄爛弟我們的彰化、我們的移民我們的嘉義、屏東其實都一樣啊然後再一次這個提醒那個主計長加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7150.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7151.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
財政部莊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7170.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7194.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
委員好部長早部長12月20日財劃法三讀之後各部會聯手接力批評整個中央變成了一個消息製造工廠鋪天蓋地進行認知作戰我在上個禮拜三有聽到您在財委會接受質詢的時候說這個114年度要開始了那你並沒有說過 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7196.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7221.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
要這個總預算重編這件事情我有重復看去看那個當時的質詢但是我們在12月23星期一的這個行政院說明記者會裡面看到行政院發言人說財劃法的修訂會嚴重衝擊到明年度的總預算可能需要重新編列確實有講這句話對不對你們在現場你跟主計長都在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7225.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7229.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這樣亂講話：最終承受壓力跟砲火的還是您跟相關部會首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7232.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7256.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
部長你沒有說過要重編但是行政院發言人代表行政院長說可能要重編你們沒有討論出一個一致對外不管是內部的意見還是一致對外的說法像這樣子的到處放話財劃法修訂是關乎全民的一個重大政策不管是對立溝通還是對外發言都非常的重要也要非常的謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7257.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7270.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
尤其這種政策應該是要以事實與數據為依據不是這種散播恐嚇甚至於情熱剛剛有聽到委員一直在講情熱來誤導民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7274.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7301.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
12月21日行政院長到花蓮視察他特別提到他說有人斷章取義但是我重複的看這個他的原話他說未來颱風來臨行政院也沒有任何的能力來到各個地方地震來臨各地方政府要自己非常勇敢的去面對這是他的原話 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7303.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7322.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個東西他講的這個事情目前各地方政府都在做並沒有因為財劃法的修訂才更努力更認真本來就很努力很認真所以我認為說院長講這種話真的是欠妥情的不只是情的 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7325.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7338.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
還混淆這種視聽甚至於賴總統公開表示說修法後努力發展建設的地方政府跟民眾將受到新法的懲罰這種說法危及 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7341.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7356.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
他更說危及各級政府的政策施行及人民福祉這樣的言論一個缺乏數據的支持更是無端恐嚇讓民眾對政策產生不必要的誤解我以舉台中市為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7357.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7383.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
臺中市人口第二多的城市也是繳稅給中央最多的城市之一每年上繳中央將近1400億財劃法修正後臺中市可分配到708億這是合理的財政回歸也是對地方發展的一個正向回饋完全不存在懲罰地方的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7384.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7404.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
更重要的是修法後人民的福利政策也沒有因此而減少反而讓地方財源更加自主是將中央超徵的稅收還有財政盈餘還給地方所以這些資金能夠花在地方建設改善基層民生需求讓我們看到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7405.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7433.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
反而是各部會首長都跳出來說會衝擊到補助、津貼甚至加薪這些毫無根據的引發民眾的不安這是令人遺憾這種虛假不實的言論無助於政策的推動反倒是分裂國家動搖民心的這樣的行為財劃法的修訂完全不會排擠到國防補助之類的預算我們以去年的財政收支來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7437.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7445.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
去年預算結餘有607億債務收支餘額約15301530億營業相關營收約608億作業資金收入684億債務基金相關約390億這樣112年度總預算餘額為3819億是將總預算餘額完全分配給地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7467.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7484.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
根本不會排擠到本來就應該要編列的既有預算所以拜託各位部會所長不要再散播這些假訊息部長你身為財政專家你讚不讚同這些散布假消息的這些說法你可不可以告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7485.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7502.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
跟委員報告我想在今天的我們的行政院也好主計總處也好財政部的報告裡面都非常說清楚的說明114年度的總預算行政院已經籌編並且在大院審議當中我們希望能夠進出審議往前然後114年能夠按照我們的施政計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7506.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7510.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
對於這次財劃法的修正因為他沒有討論到事權的一個劃分就是從中央部分隨時分配的部分就從中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7526.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7546.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
增加劃出一定的一個比例的稅款大概以114年的稅款來計算的話是到3753億那這個部分會的後續的一些影響因為等於是說重新增加出來要劃拨到中央統籌分配稅款裡面對於中央施政的一些相關的影響那個主計總處也請各部會在做一個盤整所以也已經都盤整出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7551.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7551.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
主席我想邀請主計總處陳主計長部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7577.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7591.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
主席長,這個修法會讓地方政府爭取到更多的資源也會實現更公平的一個財政分配並且釋出中央超徵稅收還有財政剩餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7593.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7622.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
那地方能夠更專注的一個改善基層民生與推動基礎建設的部分那我想認為說這個財劃法的修訂不僅僅是賦予地方更多的財源也是賦予地方更大的一個發展自主性才能真正推動基礎建設提升整體執行效率減少計畫延宕進一步的回應民眾的需求我就舉我自己台中市的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7626.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7631.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
舉例,臺中市烏日大慶的鐵路高架,鐵路高架計畫延宕了十幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7636.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7656.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這個也展現了目前地方建設推動中央存在的挑戰還有一個需要改善之處113年2月23日提報可行性修正報告給交通部交通部在3月29日呈報行政院續行審議國發會6月19日含送審查意見給交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7660.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7677.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
鐵道局6月27日還請臺中市政府回應及修正報告書臺中市政府目前正依國發會的審查意見修正報告書中這個全場只有3.7公里的高架計畫總經費83億中央負擔36億地方政府必須要超過46億的一個承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7685.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7710.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
對於地方的財政就是壓力非常的巨大從這個問題可以看出來這個修訂財劃法是解決地方財政困難光是中央用公文往返卡台中卡了多少案子我甚至於敢假設說這是中央根本就是不想編列這樣的預算那尤其我們看8800億的前瞻預算台中市的軌道 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7711.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7723.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
並列軌道的一個補助幾率是零台中市第二大城市零那這樣子就可以知道說中央補助不只是大小園對於地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7725.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7743.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
還是按照顏色對就對了顏色錯就一毛都不給你所以中正的態度很明顯不管我們每一次在總質詢的時候要求行政院長快一點快一點但是行政院長他們就是行政院能拖就拖苦的都是地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7744.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7762.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以我想再舉個例子就南山節水溝台中市的防洪重要的非常重要的一個防洪工程第三期的工程要新闢上游長度2.9公里的部分經費約65億光是土地徵收還有第三戶補償就要接近30億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7763.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7786.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
中央目前回覆我們辦公室的就是說這個經費龐大無法一次到位所以沒有辦法那麼快編定這個就是雪林林活生生的中央在卡地方建設尤其這是一個攸關人民生命財產安全的一個防洪設施防洪建設我要告訴主計長還有部長不要從臺北看天下 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7787.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7814.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
財劃法的修訂真的可以幫助很多縣市的發展我剛剛提到了前瞻八千八百億軌道建設全國各縣市都得到補助人口第二的台中市補助款竟然是零零啊沒有啦所以一再的顯示中央的統籌分配款是大小顏而且透過這一次的財劃法修正才是長治久安的辦法可以讓地方得到更公平的一個對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7816.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7841.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
委員報告台中捷運南線預算在114年中要編列5億元那113年年度也編列2億元所以他並不是零他是有補助的所以他是整個一個捷運南線都有補助那前瞻也有他只是說他是按照他的一個工程進度在做編列預算所以目前軌道大概還有2700多也還沒有編那當然將來如果這個那個財劃法修 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7845.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7851.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
主計長謝謝我時間已經到了時間已經到了好謝謝好謝謝謝謝袁寬恆委員接著我們請王洪威委好謝謝主席我請我們主計長陳主計長財政部長莊部長還有我們的副秘書長行政院副秘副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7880.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7896.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
好,三位長官根據今天的專題報告還有之前來做答詢都說財劃法修法之後那麼明年的總預算並沒有要重編對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7899.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7918.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
我先確定這件事情我想請問在12月23號行政院召開記者會你看那個大大的標題為什麼我們今天會有這麼多的討論就是當天行政院你們兩位不來參加我們財委會的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7921.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7927.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
得到當時郭國文召委的同意跑到行政院大張旗鼓的召開記者會結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7930.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7956.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
大家幾乎媒體的標題都是嚴重衝擊明年總預算可能需要重編那到後來大家就說到底誰說的那部長說我沒說主計長也說我沒說當然副秘書長也說我沒有說誰說的呢是行政院的發言人李慧芝她說的所以我想請問三位長官你們當天哪一位跟李慧芝說 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7958.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7962.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這個明年的總預算可能需要重編,哪一位說的?哪一位去跟他講的?來,部長,你有沒有跟他說這個事?沒有。主計長?沒有。沒有。好,請問一下李國興秘書長、副秘書長?沒有。都沒有。好,那這不就羅生門嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7983.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8003.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
行政院召開記者會何等重大如果我們的財主單位包含我們的副秘書長都沒有告訴我們的行政院發言人說會讓明年的總預算要重編為什麼他在記者會上膽敢提到說可能需要重編 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8004.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8015.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
這不是假訊息嗎?行政院發言人搞半天是釋放假訊息,擾亂政府,擾亂預算秩序的最主要的罪魁禍首不是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8016.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8041.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以我要特別講財主單位我們看到那個記者會他這個發言人站在中間好不威風你們財主兩大首長站在他旁邊你們兩個是soga嗎?你們兩個是人行利牌嗎?為什麼這麼重大的事情竟然可以有一個行政院的發言人胡說八道搞到我們今天還在討論這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8045.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8068.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以今天我確定了三位都沒有跟他講這個事他憑什麼講他懂嗎不懂總預算在那邊胡說八道行政院的這一場記者會荒腔走板釋放假訊息擾亂政府擾亂預算的秩序該當何罪龔秘書長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8070.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8084.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
你應該立刻去跟卓院長報告這個發言人應該被立刻撤換怎麼可以胡說八道到這種程度呢好另外也請教副秘書長你剛站上來請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8088.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8111.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
我們後來通過了三法那麼民進黨把它稱之為所謂的三大惡法包含選罷法、限訴法跟財劃法我們現在很得到確切的消息限訴法、行政院已經決定向立法院提復議所以我想請問副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8113.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8140.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
請問一下財劃法會跟立法院提復議嗎?跟委員報告那行政院目前還沒有收到財劃法修正的公文那收到以後呢我們會在憲政賦予的權利下用合法的秩序下尋求各種救濟的程序所以你們有可能提復議案是的好那你們有沒有可能提釋憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8142.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8148.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個部分也在研議中也在研議中除了事項也可能提暫時處分嗎?這個部分倒沒有聽講比較沒有討論到但是復議案跟事項都有提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8159.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8180.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
討論到都在演繹中演繹中所以我覺得我們部會首長我同不同意是一回事但是你們到底事實是如何非常重要所以我剛才講那個行政院的記者會簡直是真的是很離譜然後這個發言人竟然在那邊毫髮無傷聞風不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8183.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8210.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
愛亂講就亂講這是絕對不能夠接受的我想先請李副秘書長先回座我請部長跟主計長因為在財劃法通過之後黃偉哲也是一個釋放假信息胡說八道的一個習政首長他竟然說北部吃肉南部喝湯 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8213.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8225.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
黃偉哲完全不懂財劃法完全沒有去用功去研讀財劃法通過之後或通過之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8226.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8247.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那麼各縣市所拿到的所拿到的不管是統籌款或者補助款我們一直在談財劃法事上除了統籌款部分財劃法這次修正的第30條有一個非常重要的就是補助款不能低於前一年度的補助款這個我看到我們主計處報告裏面也提到對不對我們可以看到如果統籌款加補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8253.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8279.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
整個加計之後所以你不要一直在看統籌款還有補助款嗎財劃法還有補助款嗎黃偉哲你是看不懂字看不懂法是不是立法委員都白做了我們可以看到以六都來說總計統籌款加補助款第一名是新北市第二名就是高雄市所以請問一下有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8281.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8291.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
北部吃肉,南部喝湯呢?高雄市那個不是肉嗎?第二名都還不是肉那其他人是怎麼?吃雞骨頭嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8292.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8313.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
所以這邊一定要以正視聽事實上過去在補助款的部分我們談過很多次在補助款的部分南部的縣市事實上一直拿的蠻多的好另外看右邊我這個一定要去做一些澄清還要以正視聽剛才拉派委員離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8314.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8334.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
他剛才特別提到不只要幫台南喊冤還要幫其他南部縣市來喊冤我跟大家報告這個很清楚嘛我這個不會錯誤啦我們整個修法之後沒錯六都六都增加了是1719億增幅60%但是很重要的在六都之外的其他縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8343.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8372.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
增加1956億比六都增加的金額還要多絕對數金額更多增幅達到1.7倍170%所以我們這次的修法不是只是去有利於六都而已其他六都的其他縣市他們才是財政狀況比較差的縣市所以這次也照顧到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8372.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8389.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我跟大家可以講就是可以報告這個數字事實上你們行政院也曾經提供過以修法之後屏東增加多少增加147.8億嘉義縣增加120億雲林縣增加149億如果再看彰化彰化增加181億 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8401.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8422.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
好,所以我要講這些縣市事實上是像雲林他連他的人事支出統籌款是都不夠的他的人事支出還要來求爺爺告奶奶的但是在這一次修法之後一半以上財源給非六都財政狀況比較差的縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8426.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8437.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
縮短城鄉差距這支財劃法很重要除了去平衡中央跟地方還有地方之間它也有很大的一個城鄉差距這很重要好來我們再看一下來第二頁我們可以看再下一頁因為時間有限我們可以看這個是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8451.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8464.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
某知名財政專家的論文上面講稅收集中中央,中央集權又集錢,形成地方政府有責無權這是知名的財政專家的論文再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8471.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8499.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
來看在地方財政裡面以台南市財政最為沉重然後在後面這幾行說因為台南市財政惡化景氣低迷稅收多少但是呢在監審之後財劃法一直未真完善致補助款減少中央投手款分配比例不均等等因素特別提到幫台南市喊冤因為財劃法沒有修正再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8500.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8529.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
也看到齁第二行財劃法修正之後啊縣市自有財源可以增加那麼實際上呢把原來屬於地方稅的營業稅全數歸中央而原屬這個省負擔的警政支柱要移轉給縣市負擔縣市財政問題未獲解決反而加劇惡化這個都是在檢討財劃法為什麼都不修正中央集錢集權造成地方財政一再的惡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8531.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8553.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那這些都是誰說的呢?來來主計長這些都是誰說的?誰的論文啊?委員當初台南市的時候是薪水花不出來他已經達到公債法的一個上限沒辦法舉債所以日子過不下去那時候我們當然是希望能夠修改那個公債那個我問一下這個論文是誰的? |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8558.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8569.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
這個我們就要期問要共欣賞好的著作你比很多根本都沒有論文或者論文亂抄的人好很多這就是我們主計長的論文 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8571.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8591.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
這就是我們現在站在台上主計長的論文所以我要講財劃法修正是長期以來各財政各領域學者產官學大家一致的呼籲為什麼到現在修了財劃法突然它變成惡法了呢還要去釋憲還要來提復義 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8595.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8615.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
不通嘛唯一就是換了位置換了腦袋唯一就是換了位置換了腦袋所以我還是希望不管部長也好或者主計長也好能夠本於你們過去的一個知識跟原來你們的信仰能夠來去正視這個財劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8616.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8632.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
另外因為時間有限我其實有一個部分就是你們說要把那個一些業務應該移撥到地方我看到行政院跟主計處的報告裡面都有提到所以這個部分是不是可以在一個禮拜之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8633.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8649.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
能夠用書面的就是你們可能要修一些法嘛對不對地方制度法等等之類然後要談到就是地方中央地方政府之間業務之間要怎麼樣去做一波或者是調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8650.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8677.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
請,因為這個只有一句話我是還看不懂我們在寫什麼所以可以請一個禮拜之內請,這應該支出是屬於主計處的業務主計處可不可以給我們財委會一個比較詳細一點的報告因為這個涉及到相關的法令比如說老農津貼他就是農產部的是,我剛才有聽到你回答賴會員委員因為有一些要修法有一些可以不用修法對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8677.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8677.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
李坤誠議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8705.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8706.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
今天就12月30日 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8724.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8750.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
明天12月31日禮拜三就元旦了那本來在這個20號如果順利的話這政交稅這個當沖降稅減半就可以完成了那就沒什麼問題了那27號還是沒有通過那現在呢只剩下明天院會會開但是我也不確定呢他會不會列入這個優先法案因為我看一下優先法案國民黨好像是想先脫老人福利法就業服務法 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8750.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8759.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
也沒有把這一個這個政交稅當初降稅減半納進去那我請教你那如果都沒有納進去明天沒有討論沒辦法通過的話那該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8761.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8781.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
沒有,如果沒有通過的話就會造成這個有關那個券商就要用千分之三的來課當中了因為現行的法條就是到113年12月31日對,好,那就是用千分之三因為沒有這個再延三年嘛,就用千分之三那就會衍生後續的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8784.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8802.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
現在我問過這個金管會他說這個券商他們都有現在要去面臨這個調整系統跟加班的問題包括人力成本系統的調整成本都很棘手那這個券商代徵也不是免費我們會給這個券商這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8804.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8826.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
按照這個政交稅法的第8條按照這個機關要按其貸增稅額給予千分之一的獎金然後呢 112年呢政交稅的實增額是1793億然後呢貸增金獎金的總額是1.91那所以呢平均102家券商平均每家是187萬那請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8828.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8837.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
那如果發生了這個空窗期這些電腦系統的費用調整跟加班的這些人力費用誰要來處理?誰要來負責? |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8837.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8840.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
券商?還是財政部?還是金管會?還是國民黨跟民眾黨? |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8843.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8863.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
其實財政部所支付的就是他代徵的一個,我們委任他去做代徵嘛,那所以按照那個實徵的數然後因地的比例給予而且有個最高限那自己這些費用的部分並不在於財政部要支付給他的那誰要支付這個費用那就是恐怕要券商自行負擔了券商自行負擔,那券商人覺得很倒楣 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8864.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8887.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
巴伯德說希望說趕快通過然後現在就有人力又有系統要調整所以接下來這些成本都只有眷方自己去吸收就對了要面臨這樣的一個問題而且這個整個會是比較複雜的是好那再請教一下齁那如果說啦齁這個在明天有完成這個三讀的話那這樣來得及嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8888.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8914.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
如果我們真的希望是明天真的能夠順利的完成三讀後續的行政的一個跑的流程我們財政部會盡力的一個來做有辦法在一天之內完成嗎這個可能就沒有什麼因為接下來就是元旦了嘛對就是元旦了那我們盡力來做完這個部分而且能夠希望能夠盡快是我知道了那我就說因為接下來就是元旦了一天之內能夠完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8915.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8939.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
然後就是說這個一月二號開始就繼續一月二號就開盤了嘛 對不對對啊那就會運用但是交割的時間是在兩天後嘛一月六號交割所以我們一定會再用盡快的時間把這個流程跑完其實很重要就是讓券商也好股民也好社會大眾可以知道說後續因為現在是處於一個不安定的狀況是啊我們真的很希望大院能夠盡快審议三讀通過是 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8942.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8965.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們也希望我們一直列為優先的討論事項但是在野黨沒有把這個放在前面所以說如果明天萬一順利有三讀通過的話時間上是來得及我們財政部盡力的去做努力的去因為我們希望讓這個股市的資本市場能夠是一個安定的一個狀態是那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8966.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8989.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
明天沒有辦法順利刪讀勒?要等到這一個再隔幾天5號這個禮拜五再刪讀勒?那我想金管會已經說他做了最壞的打算最好的準備券商都必須要做相關的一些調整那所以在這幾天交易的勒?就是一樣按照前面這三如果沒辦法趕在這個在這個一定時間完成那就只有按現行的法律來客徵然後等到刪讀之後113年就就 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8992.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9015.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
所以有可能有幾天是簽分之三然後三讀通過之後比如說禮拜五通過之後才用這個簽分之1.5會這樣子嗎我們的修正條文是它的起日在106年的4月幾號對不對然後到截止日所以目前是113年12月31號那接下來如果修法通過是到116年的12月31號 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9017.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9018.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
所以說如果這樣子還涉及到退稅的問題就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9041.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9062.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
因為它是延續性的那所以說如果有可能就是說幾天的教育日是千分之三那但是因為如果通過之後就要退稅給這些人就對了對對對那可是就變得很複雜是不是產生一些因為整個是程式要做調整修正那涉及到的事情就很多了對 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9063.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9089.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
我是希望順利通過但是看這個樣子不一定能順利通過所以你們真的要做最壞的這個打算跟準備了對 是的 是的 是的我想金管會也在這方面在做跟那個證交所他們都在做這方面的準備工作好 那我請一下這個副秘書長跟主計長部長可能也要留步啦這等一下都是連貫性的謝謝 那我先問一下副秘書長好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9091.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9114.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
我先問一下在這個12月20日通過的這一個三個法案包含限速法、選罷法、財劃法行政院都收到了嗎目前只有收到一個財劃法還沒有收到目前收到什麼只有收到那個限速法只有收到限速法只有收到限速法財劃法跟這個選罷法都還沒有收到 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9117.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9140.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
這還蠻神奇的我不知道國民黨在做什麼打算就是說理論上這個通過12月12日通過理論上應該是他們會一起送給行政院那我不知道為什麼會先送限數法然後因為我剛剛聽你講我才知道說你們還沒有收到財劃法還沒有所以我就問一下那選爆法你們也沒收到也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9140.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9153.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我不知道政協黨在想什麼不知道要他做什麼東西了不知道在想什麼東西我不知道所以現在財劃法還沒收到還沒有那如果財劃法都沒有收到的話那我們就按照舊的財劃法來做處理囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9156.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9175.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
目前是這樣子就是說我們會在收到財劃法修正的公文以後我們會按照憲政賦予的權利在合法的秩序下 尋求各種救濟的程序這我知道啦 這我知道那我請教一下這一個主計長好了我在你的報告裡面有看到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9176.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9198.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
基於這個錢隨事權移轉的原則要搭配事權的監套修正相關的行政作用法一波合理業務給予地方政府辦理這部分你們已經有沒有想到就是說因為我們本來一直在講說這個錢跟權要處理好那甚至地方制度法或是相關的一些法要做這個修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9198.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9209.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那有一些沒有修法的有沒有在行政程序上面就是說因為我們少了3753億嘛那是不是就是給地方來做處理你們有沒有做好這個相關因應的準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9210.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9235.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
目前是還沒有但是等於是說各部會都必須要去檢討比如說他對縣市的一個補助的計畫是不是仍然維持他補助的比例是不是要縮減他這都必須要看整個一個檢討而且整個一個行政院施政方針到底是要檢哪些是不是全部都通案顯28%還是說哪些不檢哪些要檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9236.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9248.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
因為哪些不檢的話其他相對就要多檢所以這個部分一定是這樣的但是必須要主案去討論針對整個行政院的施政方針來配合討論說我將來是要怎麼樣的一個檢我認為你們要趕快去做這個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9256.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9284.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
國民黨還就是反正就這樣推出去的還就是少了這3700的3億然後支出的話這個稅數的話大概平均會降18%那18%你說有國防、有財政、有交通都會少那你們就是要去做這個調整有些一定是超過18%那有些我們認為很重要比如說國防不能再刪了就可能會沒辦法刪但是沒有辦法刪國防那其他一定相對會減少很多嘛這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9285.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9308.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
第二位就是說你們跟這個原來這個地方政府你們還有這個計劃型的補助款那有可能這個給的比率也會做調整啊因為我看到這個有台南市的立委就講有可能這個財劃法通過之後會得不償失雖然多了這個統籌分配款但是有可能計劃型的補助有可能會變零啊會是減少會不會發生這種情況就是計劃型的補助款會再做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9310.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9334.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
調整是一定會但怎麼調整還是看部會的一個策略那第二個就是說其實像在計劃型補助是六都在偏多芝霞市的六都比較多啊這個部分呢所以六都的影響會比較大如果說要做調整那另外也說明一下就是說前瞻計劃裡面其實有4000多億都已經核定但是還沒有編列預算的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9335.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9360.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這個部分裡面軌道建設就佔2700多那這勢必也一定受到影響以上一個說明就是說齁除了這個已經從中央挖走3750之外現在齁國民黨他們還要通過這個老人福利法就這一個所得稅急峻齁未達百分之百分之二十啊齁他們現在大概有輿論壓力再修正是變成百分之五那如果這樣下去的話又是在挖中央的錢啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9361.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9365.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
對,這個部分如果說中央增加負擔這個就是屬於法律115那這個部分那其他三減部會三減的金額又要往上提升是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9380.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9396.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
如果齁,我再提醒啦,這個只是其中一個案子,老人福利法,有可能還有其他的錢跟法案,就是他從中央花了錢,但是呢,他又多了其他的錢跟法案,又讓你中央出錢,那你中央的錢是從哪裡來?部長,要舉債嗎?舉債的話,我們公共債務法也有在線的上線的規定,不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9405.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9424.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
而且中央必須要維持一定的一個財政的韌性來因應國內外經濟情勢的一個變化其實我跟您討論過了如果把這個統籌分配款算進去再加上這個我們這個前瞻預算特別預算其實你已經沒有錢可以再去做這個那個舉債了啊你已經會超過這15%的上限了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9427.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9430.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
舉債不可行只剩下稅數的部分來做調整來做刪除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9448.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9467.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
這個是全台灣人民要去共同去承擔的啦但是相關的一些作用法那些法案一些法條該做修正的你們要趕快先去做處理啦你們可能要加班做處理了這個年大概應該不是很好過了謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝李坤城委員接著我們請李燕秀委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9477.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9478.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
主席,我想先請問您一下, 您們現在有掌握各委員會審議預算的進度嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9513.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9516.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
是 那我請問立法院有沒有在擋預算? |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9519.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9546.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
沒有嘛齁好那這個訊息要讓外界全部都知道其實過去10年以來我們大概在年度12月31號審完預算了大概只有3年就是7年度101年度跟105年度完成刪讀大部分都是過完國立年後立法院才陸陸續續把預算審完但是也都沒有影響到所有整個行政院各部會去使用預算對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9548.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9551.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我今天要提的是二倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9556.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9585.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
二倍金是我們政府中央政府的應急錢也是人民的救命錢沒有錯嘛那各部會送進來要使用動惡的部分你們到底有沒有好好的一筆一筆來審議有有沒有有經過行政院還是直接交給你你全部通通買單我們審查然後那個簽行政院准 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9586.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9610.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
對不起你麥克風好遠我聽得不是很清楚我們審查以後簽行政院核准所以我觀察一下在113年度也就是今年度5000萬的動用二倍總共有11筆這兩天媒體上也有看到我的談話我相信你有看到二倍使用腐爛的程度不要說我們不給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9612.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9638.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
但是光是包括教育部拿來蓋校際研教園區還有外交部拿來辦住處的換約這個都不會是今年才知道的我為什麼請行政院副秘書長站在旁邊這些應該都不是今年才知道的為什麼會用動二包括內政部拿來辦理義難教招 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9641.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9643.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
這些該使用動惡嗎?主席長,你懂我意思嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9649.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9670.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
一般部會是這樣的他討論以後他原來的預算不夠支應所以我們預算動資二倍金他條件有什麼叫做預算不夠支應外交部拿來辦住處的換約這都不會是當下113年才知道他可能去年前年就已經知道時間到了要換約這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9671.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9697.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
但是他不確定性所以他沒有辦法說那個在當年什麼叫做不確定性他早就應該把這個事情每個部會如果都說我不確定性所以我都要用動惡來處理那還得了動惡當時法規上同意你用動惡的目的是什麼你們現在動惡是全部都用動惡來去做處理那你現在包括動惡簽完了之後很多還變成流用 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9699.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9712.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
包括以111年度為例子申請用動二的總共有1647萬那隔年有保留到隔年使用的有99.62%包括國發會買這個檔案櫃到最後也保留主計長這種東西怎麼用動二你不覺得很離譜嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9731.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9758.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
國發會買檔案櫃然後最後保留我看還有什麼東西還有辦公室的搬遷跟整修議政署他花了1647萬你覺得這個該使用凍二嗎他臨時接貨要在定期內要做一個搬遷那所以這個搬遷不是在預計的範圍裡面這個早就應該這個早就應該是用一般的預算編入吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9759.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9781.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
包括一政署他要用辦公室搬遷跟整修他可以挪到明年或追加預算進來啊怎麼會用凍二呢他如果真的這麼急就用追加預算進來啊我們再來看怎麼處理啊怎麼用凍二你現在預備金是八山八海每一個部會想要用什麼都可以用换成是各部會另外一個小金庫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9783.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9800.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
原有預算如果說他有修正計畫或者是他原來預算增加數量或者有其他 那個會就不用好好編列啦他就不用好好編列反正不夠到時候沒編 編的不夠精準我全部都用送二你通通都收啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9801.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9826.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
所以原則上其實我們是對比較臨時有需要的第一我看到的是你沒有去追究各部會的行政責任所以對他們來說反正我沒有編到沒關係我就到最後我就索技術我用動惡來處理這就好了反正行政院會簽合同意對他來說心態就這樣子啊在我看來這一筆包括辦公一南辦公室的這個辦公室的裝修跟整修包括國發會買檔案櫃 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9829.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9831.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
欸 這個很離譜捏 這個也來用動樂來處理你聽到你自己不會覺得這怎麼會用動樂呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9837.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9858.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我有沒有講錯?對,他就是說因為可能增加數量或者是說原來沒有預計到要...這跟增加數量也沒有關係那你就今年不要編明年再編進來就好明年公務預算一個檔案貴明年再編這有什麼但是用動二字就離譜啦不符合動二的規範使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9859.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9870.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那你各部會送進來動案你也沒有所謂的行政責任雖然未來各部會就變成說反正編不夠沒關係我有一個小金庫可以用我就用預備金來處理就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9871.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9872.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
當時你都沒有一個門檻,你心裡都有這三個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9895.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9899.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我還是再次強調是政府的應急前當國家發生重大的事件需要緊急用的時候或者是人民的救命前 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9922.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9941.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
目前在我看來,無論是買檔案櫃,或者是辦公室的搬遷,或者是拿義男教召,或者是外交部拿來辦住外處換租,我覺得這都不是第一時間起,這早就應該各部會。 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9942.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9960.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
要有提早的因應跟準備在我看來這些項目拿來用棟二是叫做包山包海這叫做腐爛的編列棟二而且更是流用的程度是非常高這更不合理你既然編了最後還用不到還變流用 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9961.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9966.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
在我看來你完全沒有把關嘛所以在我看來各部位的編不夠就這樣子使用就好了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9979.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9999.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我覺得這不符合我們所謂外界在觀察救命錢的使用所以會淪為各部會的小金庫所以我再一次認為我覺得主計處在這一個各部會使用動惡的把關上為了讓各部會未來精準地去編列各單位的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10000.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10022.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
要更用心我覺得動惡的使用不應該是這樣的使用方式我再一次提醒我這樣子講應該合理啦行政院包括買什麼檔案櫃這個沒有那麼急啦各外交部換約的部分早在前一兩年早就應該知道早就應該去做好因應的準備他用不到他自己在留用就好了而不是在動惡裡面在留用 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10025.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10046.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
一男的教召的辦公室更是如此所以我覺得目前的說法沒有辦法去說服外界對於動二預備金的服用濫用跟流用這個我必須要讓行政院的副秘書長知道這件事情所以動二的使用不應該淪為各部會的小金庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10048.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10073.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
這個最近我在媒體上已經有指出來我也希望主計長你在這邊動惡的部分要更嚴格的把關然後最後我要再一次問一下財劃法的部分複利你可以請回那個到目前為止我剛剛聽到幾位委員的質詢的結果大概大部分大概都聽到無論是限數法或財劃法這個部分都打算走復議對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10077.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10092.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
這個部分那個行政院還在討論我們相關的一個因應措施看我們他整個一個討論的結果但這個部分也會跟也要經過總統的核可嘛對不對走副議那總統核可對不對賴總統核可這部分我們要遵照那我再請一下副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10099.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10123.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為程序是復裕之後決定要復裕不管這三個法案哪一個法案要復裕哪一個法案最後要走釋憲最後都要總統的核可對不對對所以也就是說這整件事情最後也要總統同意嘛對所以從今天上午聽到現在這三個法案最後做出的結果也都是賴總統的意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10124.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10140.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我這樣講沒有錯嗎?我們會跟他報告,同意後我們對,到最後就是賴總統的意志嘛那到底賴總統對於這三個法案最後我昨天聽到在其他委員會有聽到說路上有提到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10141.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10163.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我從媒體上有看到說到底會不會召集怨記協調的部分後來否認沒有那到底這三個法案會不會走怨記協調行政院跟立法院會不會走怨記協調會不會請總統出來做怨記協調有沒有這件事情你不清楚還是不知道還是不敢說你不知道媒體上有沒有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10166.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10173.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
媒體上有聽聞有新聞有聽聞有聽聞所以你不知道我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10176.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10197.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
好,第一個我尊重了我覺得我覺得這整件事情這三個法案這三大法案每一個法案其實都是攸關人民不管是立法院在野黨的立場也好或你們的立場也好對於國家整個未來的運作跟預算執行都是洞見觀瞻我覺得大家也都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10198.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10214.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
這三個法案之後也都在看未來朝野的互動是一個什麼樣的狀態立法院跟行政院的互動是一個什麼樣的狀態所以你今天代表秘書長在現場我覺得這三個法案後續的處理你們真的是要三思好以上謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝李延秀委員接著請楊瓊英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10226.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10239.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
特別感謝主席跟我發言次序我們要邀請財政部主計處跟行政院李富密 行政院李富密委員好 三位好我們首先來請教財劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10251.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10274.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
達到25年沒有修：歷任的總統：歷任的首長都親自說我們地方很窮我們希望財劃法終於經過25年在立法院三讀通過從原本的6比4一直到動審 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10276.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10299.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
75比25的財政比例動審之後動審的預算直接到中央來單位也歸到中央來但是有很多的業務還是放在地方所以這個情況產生75%中央25%財政地方所以地方非常的辛苦才會導致所有立院的總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10301.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10321.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
以及現任的總統當時在擔任首長的時候都急聲吶喊財劃法務必要修所以在現在情況之下我們修完了之後是65跟35所以本期要特別的請教在前幾天行政院長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10323.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10337.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
他願意要跟地方來協處所以首先請教要跟地方政府來協處的內容是什麼請教 三位請發言來 副秘書長來 一位一位說 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10342.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10343.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
請問什麼內容?所以跟地方政府要協處的部分是事權分工的原則啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10359.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10360.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
市權分工,是嗎?市權分工那動審之後有很多的業務,中央沒有接回來地方在做啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10377.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10377.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10393.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10408.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
他協助下協助什麼內容也是事權的一個部分事權報告一下就是當初75裡面15裡面有11是屬於省政府的業務那其他剩下4.3的部分是屬於地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10408.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10436.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
那你現在把15的部分的收入全部在歸地方那省政府的業務的部分很多大部分都留在中央包括全民健保包括老龍津貼包括直轄市的老龍津貼就已經回歸到直轄市來了啦你現在是主計長啊接下來我要告訴你的是什麼呢因為我們還有新增很多業務啊比如說你國立台中一中 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10437.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10460.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
現在改為市立台中一中以台中市為主我們有17家的學校這次新增一樣也編列在地方政府所以你現在我請教來主計長我請教現在我們的行政院長說要跟地方協處是協處事務分權分工是不是是這個方向嗎財政部長請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10463.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10484.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
院長我們告訴你說到底他要協處的是什麼內容跟委員報告財政收支劃分法第一個就是本來正常來說是事權先做劃分然後再做支出的劃分現在支出已經劃分了那勢必要回到事權去做劃分所以他現在主要你們三位回答的都是事權劃分嘛主要的協調內容是這個是不是應該是應該是應該是好來就這個所以本席要請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10493.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10515.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
地方歷任的首長、歷任的總統、現任的總統在這25年的過程都說財政收支劃分法必須要修必須要修所以我也希望行政院長我也肯定你終於在這25年在修法的過程你也不提版本然後也不跟地方來協處 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10516.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10545.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
等到終於通過25年沒修終於通過之後我也肯定終於聽到民意必須要協處我也希望這個溝通能夠讓我們人民讓地方政府他能夠執行得了這個是非常的重要因為政府是一體的對不對好所以本席要請教主計處第二預備金是政府應急錢是人民的救命錢對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10546.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10551.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
對!這個是編列在你的第二預備金,這一稅金都是人民的納稅錢,是人民的救命錢啊!隨時動之第二預備金的重點!但是本席告訴你,本席告訴你喔! |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10573.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10597.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
也就是113年你的第二預備金動資的情況你寫了警察大學新設系所注音代表處管社換租替代役訓練經費保二總隊擴編轉型少年保護管訓計劃這些這些本來就是應該編列在這個年度的預算的項目啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10598.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10615.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那你現在放在第二預備金你行政院大鼻灰全部由第二預備金全部由第二預備金去支應所以更離譜的是什麼主計長111年議政署已辦公室搬遷及 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10616.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10621.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
整修為由申請預備金多少申請第二預備金1647萬結果99.62%保留到次年度來使用可以如此嗎第二個國發會 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10632.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10655.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
以辦理公共檔案庫房移動式的這個檔案櫃為由來申請第二預備金630萬結果是什麼?主計長結果是什麼?結果是100%流用到次年度來用所以主計長你非常的專業跟精準啊你聽到這樣子你認為呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10656.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10656.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
您認為呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10687.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10688.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
那你認為這樣子的情況動用第二預備金是人民的救命錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10714.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10734.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
是緊急迫切需要的但是你給我本席一個理由說他因為沒有趕在5月所以不行李明在不行你怎麼可以會核准呢對不對你怎麼會動用到第二億北京的項目呢所以本席要請教民主技術要怎麼樣去督導 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10737.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10751.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這種事情不要再發生我們人民的納稅錢我們人民的救命錢對不對怎麼可以如此百分之一百趕快大家來申請你行政院大筆一揮就全部納到第二預備金裡頭去 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10753.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10782.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
你覺得這個空間不管是時間還是你的向下有沒有改進的空間需不需要去調整請教是我們盡量來檢討然後也嚴加督促就是說你如果有動資第二預備金第一個就是應該要加緊辦理第二個就是有關不是很必要的我們就放到下一年度的一個預算來辦理本來就是應該如此嘛給你錢你沒有辦法用 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10783.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10786.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
謝謝楊卿英委員接著我們請吳立華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10821.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10825.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
謝謝主席,有請行政院副秘以及財政部長、主計長副秘您好 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10834.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10851.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
今天來討論114年度的總預算到底要重編不重編事實上我們感覺行政院的態度很模糊在這裡我們也看到很多的報導也告訴我們今天的專報也寫著 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10853.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10875.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
其實中央43個主管部會大致有已經有33個已經完成初步的審議那地方政府呢也已經大部分都完成審議這個時候我覺得我們不應該讓人民讓地方政府無所適從我們比較擔心的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10877.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10891.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我們這個地方的行政院的態度是不是也無所適從其實這個部分政府的態度非常的重要所以呢我就來肯定的問您您也肯定的來回答一下到底會不會重編預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10894.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10918.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
跟委員報告那當天行政院發言的原意是對未明定施行日期所產生的嚴重衝擊他表達憂心了那根據我們今天我的報告財政部長報告跟主計長報告我們沒有要重編預算好肯定的回覆沒有要重編預算那既然不重編預算我看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10919.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10946.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
要去刪減28%的預算這是各部會所以我也要請教一下主計長跟財政部長財政部長你應該清楚我前兩次的質詢我都有一再的提到如果要刪到底各部會怎麼刪我一直希望趕快算出來那我現在呢看到我們的主計專報說 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10948.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10958.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
法律義務的項目這些呢我們就保留不刪那這樣子總來講是需要刪減大概28% |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10960.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10971.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
那之後呢也很高興我在上個禮拜我也陸陸續續看到各部會有發新聞稿以內政部來講他說他要刪減大約283億那國科會呢他評估他要刪200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10980.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11001.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
我最關心的袁明慧他也做了新聞稿那在這邊我要特別來講一下部長你應該還記得我前兩次的質詢我都有特別提這一次的財劃法對袁湘的衝擊我認為比其他部會影響更大 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11002.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11028.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
大家都很清楚過去我們的原鄉可能是因為人數少不具什麼政治影響力我們很難仰賴地方政府多分一些錢給我們我們大部分都是仰賴中央政府這個就好比過去我們在地方政府爹不疼娘不愛我們好歹可以靠我們的爺爺奶奶 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11029.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11059.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
⋯⋯⋯ |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11060.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11061.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
算,他是依法律義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11072.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11087.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好,那請問一下那會不會影響到發放?既然是法律義務支出。不會。好,不會。所以呢,原民會的新聞稿可能還要再重新加回去喔。我要講的是只剩一點點,他們的新聞稿寫14.5億欸。 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11091.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11106.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我們這麼多的計畫原鄉最重視的聯外道路特色道路聚會所的興建那一些脆弱家庭還有那些房屋的修繕部落環境改善等等等幾百項怎麼辦這個怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11112.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11128.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
所以在這裡我要特別特別的我有要請你們說特別是對我們的原鄉對我們原住民族人不論是地方的建設或者是這些福利措施所造成的影響至少我現在還沒看到很清楚的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11129.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11155.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
所以這個部分麻煩主計總處還有財政部協助一下我還是希望看到因為我必須要給我的族人清楚的資訊要不然每天外面錯假資訊的圖卡滿天飛我也看不到政府出來去做正確的回應那我們也不知道要怎麼協助政府做正確的回應所以這個部分的資料我還是要趕快希望這幾天以內趕快寫出來給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11158.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11178.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
委員報告一下就是說原住民114年度的預算他有123.8億那扣除依法律義務的部分就是80.8億所以剩下的部分就是必須要3減28%所以我就緊張啊他們的新聞稿試算啊剩沒有多少錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11179.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11184.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我之前問財政部的時候我有特別強調我不知道要怎麼刪是各部會平均公平的來刪一定的%數還是怎麼樣我不知道但是我有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11205.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11233 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
原鄉我們長期大家都知道我們是完全依賴過去中央政府的補助這個對我們的衝擊非常的大所以如果你們要統三用一定的比例統三我不能接受因為我對我們原鄉來講影響太大了我不能接受所以呢我站在原住民的立場我是強烈的反對現在這個版本的財劃法對我們影響非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11234.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11261.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
所以我在這邊我想要了解一下我很關心行政院的反制措施那我先請教主計長如果預算是3減28%那你們又說不重編我覺得這個是互為矛盾那還有什麼樣的因應方式原則上是我們必須要比如說透過追加減的方式來做一個調整所以你要用追減預算吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11262.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11284.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
對,追檢預算那追檢預算要拖到什麼時候?下會期嗎?因為籌備預算時間是比較長那我們必須每一個部會每一個計畫都去討論它刪減的項目包括它補助地方的一個比率這個部分我們都必須要做檢討那這個部分影響不是一年而是每一年因為這是結構性的刪減所以每一年都要刪減3753億所以這個部分就會對我們影響很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11289.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11291.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我請教一下行政院副秘書長請問行政院會提復議嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11306.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11332.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
目前我們是還沒有收到財劃法修正的公文那收到後的話我們會在憲政賦予的權利之下然後尋求各種的救濟程序那請問一下你們所謂的救濟措施有哪些目前都在研議當中嘛那包括那個委員剛剛講的復育也是我們的研議方向之一那什麼時候會清楚其實我一再講的就是我們的人民不能夠讓他無所適從 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11334.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11360.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
我覺得政府的責任就是不要讓我們的人民無所適從我覺得態度要很明確所以什麼時候因為我們還沒有收到財劃法的根據那有沒有打算要提暫時處分我們就且戰且走這個部分應該也是演繹中的之一而已那憲法法庭呢也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11361.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11383.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以憲法法庭你可以等到憲法法庭釋憲的結果啟動的了嗎但是這個我們都是在憲政的程序之下所救的救力程序他原來規定就是這樣子那我請教一下財政部部長行政院有沒有可能再修財劃法下個會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11385.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11400.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
跟委員報告財劃法其實我們之前從今年初我們就開始一直努力包含指標的部分我們都一直在努力那現在因為立法院已經三讀通過財劃法的修正案那後續的一個相關的因應措施剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11402.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11427.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我們副秘書長講得很清楚在核限的架構之下相關的因應措施都目前在評估當中是的部長我們一直在講事權要一併的來去做調整我其實是很希望說你們財政部如果可以再修財劃法內政部我希望可以一併的來修地質法 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11430.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11440.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
委員對於元宵我們的民眾的一個權益非常的一個重視也多次的提起這樣的一個建議這個我們理解是謝謝有沒有可能那這個因為帝制法屬於內政部的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11446.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11464.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
好我我內政部我會問是那您可以嗎呃如果內政部那邊做調整當然財劃法這邊是一個下階段的部長這次我們原鄉被丟包呢呃我了解因為委員也有提然後趙偉陳玉珍趙偉說下個會期他說可以再提委員有提修正條我知道是謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11465.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11482.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
我想這個部分可以來考慮但是我聽起來我還是要再講一次站在我原住民的立場我強烈反對現在這個版本的財劃法我覺得對我們影響很大所以這個部分那個行政院覆滅會不附屬嗎因為這個部分的話我們是要在合憲範圍之內去處理的那是我們的其中一個方案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11496.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11500.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
因為不附屬應該不是我憲政程序裡面的程序之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11501.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11527.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
您的態度一直都很模糊啊每一個都是沒有接、沒有收到要不然就是還沒有研議那這樣怎麼辦呢?因為實況是我們真的還沒有收到但是但是但是我還是要跟父命您說站在我原住民的立場我是非常的反對現在這個版本的財劃法對我們原鄉我可以直接講就直接宣告會成為財政孤兒 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11528.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11528.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
謝謝五立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11553.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11554.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
先請副秘書長交出決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11588.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11616.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
委員好我看了行政院這幾天還有特別是主計長你今天提出來你說以後被衝擊而且有可能會減少的八個面向我看了我真的是非常的難過我問問為什麼開始我的質詢是我們都摸著良心摸著良心希望我們的心都還是好的如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11618.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11645.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
心壞掉了就變成壞人了就變成壞心的人了今天主計總處提了三檢的八個項目包括說可能會影響到民眾的就醫前線影響到癌症的癌友患病等民眾使用心藥跟護理人員的獎勵還有影響到勞工的勞退基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11648.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11675.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這種錢你砍得下去嗎?主規定你是決定優先順序哪些不當的錢我們如果要把減少錢是不是有腐爛的、浪費的、不當的、有弊案的先砍,對不對?你怎麼會提一個八個面向刀刀砍向的是我們生病的人是勞工?這感覺好心美人?你是好心的主計長還是壞心的主計長? |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11677.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11700.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
主席,你的心還好嗎?沒有壞掉?報告委員,我們整個114年的預算是三兆一那扣除一法律一五就是一兆八那剩下一兆三那一兆三的各項項目如果我們目前還沒有經過檢討原則上是平均減就是各項減百分之二十八 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11700.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11703.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那是不是哪些項目不檢必須經過討論之後開會討論之後開會討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11713.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11730.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
你怎麼去砍生病人的錢、該用的錢、薪料的錢、砍勞工的錢?還講什麼?可能為了連毒品跟打仗,你意思是說錢不夠?你連毒品都不要再查了嗎?打仗都不要了嗎?你這是威脅人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11735.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11759.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
如果以國防預算來講,國防預算如果不減那我這樣子我其他就必須相對所有全部提高要到3減37%所以蘇珂婷我都要提起你嘛,我們兩個我在執行,你的回答是你都摸著良心嘛你是要決定哪些不當的、腐爛的、弊案的要刪掉嘛對不對不要去刪到國防 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11762.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11775.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
不要影響人民的安全不要影響人民醫療不要影響人民的這個退休不要影響到打詐、毒品可以嗎我都願意但是問題是刪減這樣就會不夠沒辦法刪減到3753那這個部分我們就沒辦法因應會不夠嗎現在立法院正在審啊可以啊有幾個方法可以解決錢不夠的問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11792.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11821.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
你有足夠的錢財政變好了這幾年每一年政府財政都超生啊今年超生多少五億一千萬五千一百億對不對至少中央分的有三千多億啊你可以追加預算這是第一把錢增加了第二個減少不當的嘛我來跟你講什麼叫不當的來我們看一下當要犧牲人民的這個權益的時候還有關聯自己的福利的時候我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11822.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11837.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
有一筆錢叫特別費我看了一下明年度所有關聯的特別費編了超過1億629萬以上這筆錢要做什麼用?供首長招待或者饋贈嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11851.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11878.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你把人民的醫療把人民的退休錢都砍了為什麼不先回來砍自己人民的醫療退休還是你的福利比較重要這一億是不是就該砍的如果你真的要砍到人民我公開倡議今年我們現在在審的明年度所有的首長的特別費從總統開始特別是總統跟行政院長中通戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11880.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11899.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
三八百年特別會．行政院四八五十年特別會．各部會一直到首長的都有特別會．這個你還是做什麼饋贈跟招待．請什麼課．送什麼紅包．人民醫療都被你們砍掉了．這筆錢明年114年全砍．第二個我們再看下一個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11906.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11931.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
一部發布一個新的任命案中央訓產會的董事長數字會不會去接?主計長你知道他一年的薪水多少?30萬公費30萬年薪600萬你年薪多少?他比你還多欸一個中央訓產會當署定 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11933.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11961.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
緊於開了罷班而且這個是本來是無幾子的耶以前要嘛就是農業部的次長要嘛就是市長會的司長以前人民不用再花一毛錢的名子名高為林聰賢開戲緊於開了罷班這個錢要不要砍?是這邊接了這個新工作這個錢能留著嗎?我更要問從整個結構面來看政府有多少國營事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11962.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11981.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
有多少財團法人?多少基金?幾百個啊!不只中央稀產會的這個董事長的錢要砍啊!這些很多弊案的,讓會民主民高的,特別是他本來有什麼績效可以領這麼多錢?主席來,我們做個,我做個倡議 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11984.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11986.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
報告委員 這個國營事業和基金他不在我們3753億裡面喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12001.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12001.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12026.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12054.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
而且才符合公平啊憑什麼國營事業董事長什麼系長會董事長比你薪水還高大概是你的三倍對不對你錢也兩百萬而已啊他憑什麼拿六百萬而且不是一個中央系長會有多少國營事業董事長多少基金會的董事長拿的比你還多多了兩三倍前面去檢討另外你要砍人民最近啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12056.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12077.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
光是台電的這個錢我砍了火力發電的錢250億你現在把核電廢掉了結果你一直在燒煤燒煤不是民進黨政府的政策嗎以前國民黨政府到民進黨都說燃煤要減少就燃煤還是一直燒還是什麼賣掉電廠這個燃煤電廠還一直買電 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12082.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12083.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
所以要有哪些錢要錢不過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12097.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12111.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
要嘛就是你主計總處、行政院你去把剛剛一路講下來的腐爛、不該花的錢的、不當的錢你腐爛你看水電費今年的水電費變80億已經被罵臭頭了每年還編輯了110億、101億還給20億的出來這21億不用砍掉嗎人民會同意你說你要增加這21億嗎這是不是腐爛 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12121.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12122.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12142.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12162.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
所以主席我今天摸著良心問話你也摸著良心回答我你如果是一個有良心的主席請你回去檢討腐爛浪費的、不當的、弊案的包括我剛剛講的如果是你要砍人民的醫療 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12165.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12183.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
請你們先從砍自己開始從總統跟行政院難到各個部會各個國運社董事長開始做起好不好你們自己都沒有砍自己的福利了憑什麼去砍人民的錢人民的健康人民的退休金好不好現在有幾個解決方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12185.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12207.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
其實啦你已經說不重編了嘛對不對明年不重編了嘛對不對事實上這個應該財劃法這次的修正應該真正實施也應該是後年吧對不對那你有一年的時間你還要檢討我剛剛講的好不好我們謀著良心我只有要減這三千億第一個要減三千億不成問題我剛剛一路練下來減三千億太容易了我這國會會事務的記者照顧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12211.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12236.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
有多少的預算本來就是檢討以後人民是有掌聲的欸以前總統薪水多少從陳水扁當立法委員我當記者我就開始追這個錢我們以前總統是一個月是84萬欸威權時代我們以前是威權時代是強人所以我們總統薪水很高啊你在陳水扁當總統薪水砍一半欸降到從84降到42以前財政部長一定知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12237.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12266.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
以前你們這些所長的薪水有公費跟稅費一半不用繳稅對不對後來不就改了嗎改全部要繳稅啊合理啊國庫至少增加了一億以上啊你去做這些改革嘛你才是一個好心的主計長也是一個有改革的主計長嘛我今天看了老蔣你們不要再講這個各個部會輪流出來該記者會啊主計總是說要砍這八項這八大項每一項都砍在人民身上欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12267.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12274.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
好不好請把人民放心上我們希望我們都做一個有良心的人拜託一下拜託一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12296.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12324.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
有請行政院副秘書長李副秘書長主計長陳主計長委員好兩位好這個財政部長就不上來了用聽的這個行政院針對財劃法的記者會真的是在場的三位 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12328.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12348.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
當天在場的主計長、財政部長應該要馬上跟行政院發言人說這個是戳錯怎麼會說財劃法修法若公佈施行嚴重衝擊明年總預算要重編怎麼會說這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12351.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12379.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我們就依法入法預算法第46條規定中央政府總預算案以附屬單位預算及其中繼表經行政院會議決定或交由中央主計機關會編由行政院以會計年度開始4個月前提出立法院審議也就是8月底114年度的預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12381.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12408.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
今年的8月底送到立法院已經送來了已經在審查了行政院發言人他不清楚也就罷但是部長、主計長你要馬上告訴他這樣講是不對的何況何況那時候是12月20日 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12410.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12431.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
按照行政流程送到行政院,行政院假設馬上公布施行也是明年的事情啊對不對,也是明年啊怎麼會,也沒說要受及既往啊當然是公布生肖之後啊所以這個用詞都是欺騙人民好 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12435.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12462.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
剛才啊 這個主計長你也剛才有 我認為有失言啊你在答覆這個吳立法委員的時候有提到追檢預算法是81條 我沒有準備條文啊預算法81條不是這樣規定的 對不對法定稅率不足的跟法定稅率無關啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12464.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12489.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以這個部分也不能追檢跟追檢預算無關所以這個用詞還是要很謹慎副秘書長你都是主計總處出身的主計長也是事務官你們都是事務官部長也是事務官 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12491.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12516.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
對不對,你們提出這個,主計總處提出這個將造成以核定且上在執行中之各項計劃經費難以為繼列了這麼多跟國防、社會福利、醫療服務、勞工、農業、治安、重大工建設、科技產業發展都列這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12520.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12548.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
剛才張祺凱委員質詢的很正確啊怎麼會去檢討這個呢?不當支出太多了不當撥補太多了為什麼不去檢討這些呢?所以啊我們都是事務官出身的啦我看了聽了之後真的是很難過 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12550.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12566.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
不要受到政治的影響啊我不相信這是你們三位所認為的這些一定是上面交辦的就是要把這個跟人民實際有關係的寫出來這是錯誤的應該好好檢討作為事務官出身的副秘書長、主計長、財政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12581.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12607.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
要好好地檢討何況按照你們的算法這行政院的加起來就七千多億現在只是三千多億出去而已啊何況省紀部稅計稅入稅出的剩餘還有超徵的稅收就這麼多不先去處理這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12610.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12635.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
講一些危言損聽的話真的是不應該啊真的是不應該時間的關係齁何況啊何況第一個賴總統當台南市市長的時候就說強烈的要求要修財政收支方法賴清德總統當行政院院長的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12637.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12665.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
在2017年12月28日的年終記者會他說明年要修正財政收支方法要給地方更多的經費啊所以在總統上任你們應該趕快提出啊從上個會期就開始審查財政委員會就開始審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12667.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12695.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
開了很多次的會議包括這個會期開了很多次的會議尤其是主計長你的收視你的入文啊你的入文就是以這個照理你應該有版本的嘛對不對要拿出版本很快啊所以這個部分呢法已經修了立法院三讀通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12698.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12726.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
不要再繼續被打臉打臉誰?賴總統所以我要奉勸部長、主計長還有副秘書長要欠卓榮泰院長第一個這個都是我們以前講的啊就不要復議了啦對不對?趕快公佈私刑以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12728.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12730.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
謝謝鄭天才委員。我們休息五分鐘。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12761.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12779.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
就舉1點在座選擇不夠,選擇不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不夠,不 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12788.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12789.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12806.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12818.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
那天下大亂不是國營試驗完全沒有影響而且還有採訪完那不是我來幫他採訪的國營試驗那些都不是在供預算我們也沒有過補這不是我們來過補的 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12832.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12834.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
他們檢討不足但這3753沒有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12839.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12841.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
他們那些會減少?他們那些會減少? |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12870.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12872.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
委員長淑姿、行政部莊部長翠雲、行政部莊部長翠雲 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12899.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12899.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13142.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13147.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會 我們開放這個現場用餐齁 中午到了齁好 接著我們請黃珊珊委員好 謝謝主席 我想請財政部主計長以及副秘書長李副秘他可能去那個 沒關係齁 沒關係齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13173.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13193.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
委員好兩位部長還有副秘書長今天這個專案報告的題目就叫做行政院表示因財劃法修正114年度總預算須重編這個題目是召委定的還是行政院自己說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13197.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13200.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
是行政院發言人說的,對嗎?是,也就是說這個東西叫做是放話還是要嫌? |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13215.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13224.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
沒有放話沒有要挾那他要講這個幹嘛我想在今天的三份報告裡面都很明確所以是騙人的還是嚇人的來副秘書長你回答我是騙人還是嚇人 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13232.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13237.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
是謊話還是要脅?他講完之後的幾天你們行政院有澄清過嗎?有像今天這樣說明過嗎?有嗎?有沒有?今天不來財政委員會這句話還是要脅還是謊話吧?是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13253.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13257.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
所以我們的發言人可以衝著這樣子這麼不負責任的說預算要重編請問財劃法哪一條叫你們重編立法院哪一個人叫你們重編從頭到尾沒有這回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13277.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13290.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
第二個這個案子在相關今年2月1號本新國會成立之後我們就跟財政部講財劃法我們修訂了而且我們會提案對吧部長版本早就提出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13292.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13308.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
而且要你們在上個會期告訴你們下個會期提出來請你們提版本不提而且民眾黨的版本我們不是不提而是我們認為要進一步再做討論因為指標的部分我們有後續要討論的事你們的版本就是最好的版本你們的版本就是不要再提版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13310.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13335.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這次你們在吵的東西有兩個我們民眾黨的版本很清楚第一個我們非常忠信我們去計算你們的稅收稅率的剩餘大概2000多億不到3000億第二個我們給你們很大的彈性是用分配委員會第三個我們在這次修法修正東西的時候我們講得很清楚條文施行的日期我們給你們一年以後但是民進黨團不支持民眾黨的版本現在在鬼扯 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13337.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13362.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
這些都是我們版本裡面就提出來的我們希望用分配委員會讓財政部繼續保有調節的功能第二個有關施行的日期我們認為一年之後施行可以民眾黨團從頭到尾就非常的理性民進黨團寧可不同民眾黨的版本也要挑釁立法院然後現在在說我要重編施行日期有問題我要重編 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13364.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13367.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
所以部長不要再告訴我們說你們不知道相關的內容了這樣的行為就叫做放話就叫做要挾 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13383.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13394.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
另外主計處你們的報告裡面寫說要刪掉八項八大項的預算28%影響然後要有7000多億請問你現在釋出的是幾千億3000多億不是嗎你為什麼要砍到7000多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13401.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13426.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
明明是三千多億的你說要砍七千多億不是放話不是要寫是什麼你現在告訴我受影響我們釋出你們三千多億結果你告訴我你為什麼七千多億受影響哪門值得受影響有一照三裡面三減百分之二十八主計長我問得簡簡單我們釋出三千多億請問你憑什麼說你影響到七千多億你告訴我答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13427.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13431.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
這是項目,影響的項目,但是金額呢?金額是3000還是7000? |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13431.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13431.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
這個數學很簡單吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13431.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13432.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
有需要在那邊說謊嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13438.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13462.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
三千七百五十三然後百分之三減一兆三三減百分之二十八所以你就用比例算所以四出三千多億影響七千多億這是騙小孩子嗎最嚴重的是再講一次我們說地方自治的事項你們一直在說事權請問副秘書長你們現在研究出哪些事權的法條要修正嗎地方自治法 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13463.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13482.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
稅法通則還是相關的法規你們盤點出來了沒?哪些法要修?這個部分目前還在處理中還在處理中所以從頭到尾行政院都沒有因應立法院在財政收支劃分法已經進到委員會進到黨團協商進到院長協商你們從來沒有討論過是嗎?從來沒有討論過你市局要怎麼修是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13489.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13500.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
現在才要處理我告訴你這個法我修得很神氣我們一直跟財政部說你說的事權請你說出來請你拿出來我們一起幫你修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13501.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13518.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
一整年都不講半句話現在告訴我說我現在在處理第二個這個法裡面很重要一件事情事權為什麼要分清楚因為中央就是拼命的去舉債弄了潛在預算來搶地方政府該做的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13519.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13544.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
做什麼事?第一個新建停車場、捷運建設、水環靜置水、觀光建設、公有建築物的耐震改善還有重鋪道路這就是地方該做的事你們寧可把權跟錢都放在中央用一個前瞻建設去舉債來幫地方做地方該做的事不給地方錢該做他本來就該做的事把錢全部搶在中央幹什麼?做什麼?我告訴你答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13546.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13571.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
中央來做聖誕老公公啊中央來補助地方的時候都是我給你的啊立法委員就說我去中央爭取了多少預算所以你要全票投給我執政黨啊更嚴重的是有一些補助款直接發給民眾的部分裡面的存摺直接寫行政院發啊行政院發才是重點啊綁裝啊地方政府的財劃法去綁裝真正在綁裝的是中央政府而且綁得很嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13573.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13598.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
再講一遍該地方做的人不做不給他錢做現在潛在預算就是你們搶著地方的事情來做我們只是把該交給地方的權利交給他該地方做的事情交給他現在變好了我們幫你們把中央的錢搶掉你什麼事都不能做了國光獎金不能發了國防預算不能買了不要鬼扯不要放話不要要挾 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13601.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13629.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
最後一個副秘書長現在接下去行政院在研究哪些事權要修正OK啊那你們在研究復議的理由了嗎還是公投的理由還是事先的理由也在準備還是什麼時候要做因為我們還沒有收到財劃法修正的公文所以目前是內部研議中總統說他們一定總統府說他們一定會公佈按照程序就是要復議復議就是要送立法院復議的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13630.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13656.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
還有公民投票的理由還有憲法訴訟的申請我想都是行政院現在正在做的對吧對第二個我要的是如果你們真的講一直很認真的在講事權請你告訴我也準備好你們正打算修的地方相關的稅法或者是地方制度法哪些文件哪些條文要修的也麻煩請你一併在一個禮拜之內告訴我你們會修哪些可以嗎可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13658.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13686.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
更嚴重的是現在的問題是主計長上次有說因為我們怕給地方很多錢所以地方會亂花主計長我們的主計是不是主計一條邊我們是不是所有的地方主計人員都是由中央指派的是請問你們的主計人員在地方政府是死人嗎亂花錢是你的責任還是地方政府的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13688.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13716.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
什麼叫做給錢給地方政府亂花錢那主計處、審計部全部是死人是嗎現在是這樣就是說事前第一個你該分到地方沒有分到地方沒有錯地方主計處就是把關者地方的主計人員就是把關者你怕什麼你們該負的責任現在推給說地方會亂花錢所以我主計處不同意主計長啊你們是中央政府還有地方政府預算的把關者欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13718.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13729.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
我們的主計長講出這種話真是笑死天下人更嚴重的是財政部現在我們現在釋出的是3000多億今年超徵多少億 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13731.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13744.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
今年真正的數據要等到12月底過完以後大概5000億吧那是全國全國來說上看是這麼多然後中央也多出了3000多億嘛所以不要再說會影響到中央的正式運作我同意但是我們現在要做的是事權要統一我同意趕快修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13757.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13775.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
第二,這個法案通過了,它就是有效的法律,請你們依法行政最重要的是,不要再把該地方做的事情中央搶著去做該給他的事權,就好好地給他事權現在地方為了配合你們的前瞻預算是去取債、炒地皮、賣地來配合你們的自籌款 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13776.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13795.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這才是問題最嚴重的是你們用計劃性補助款要求地方政府配合中央的財源這不健康 這非常不健康要求地方政府炒地賣地然後配合自籌款才能夠得到你的計劃性補助款這樣的行為很不健康一直都是這樣計劃性補助款就是這樣所以我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13804.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13817.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
財政收支劃分法分得很清楚我們處理的是中央統籌分配稅一般性補助款讓他合情合理名目相符第二個我們不希望中央在以任何的理由用 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13818.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13843.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
特別預算用錢債預算這種舉債的方式去搶中央去搶地方本來就會做的事然後不要逼著地方去賣地炒地配合你們的自籌款這三件事情最重要就是請副秘書長一個禮拜之內給我你們要修哪些法要怎麼修請告訴我們你們修的狀況跟進度跟接下去你們要做的處置可以嗎副秘書長好要回答麥克風沒有聽到你的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13849.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13874.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
一個禮拜我希望看到財政部、主計處跟副秘書長你們承諾這句話如果不是騙人、不是要挾、不是放話就清楚地表達你們的態度而不是今天隨便口頭說說行政院發言人蔣王這句話已經很久了沒有人出來說啊如果今天召委沒有排這個報告全國的人民都認為我們要從邊預算喔那我們現在在審預算是白癡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13876.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13896.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
第2個講出這些話之後今天才有你們來說明這不是很可笑嗎一個中央政府的發言人可以隨便如此隨便的說這麼嚴峻的事情第3個如果真的要提復議就正面來不要在後面放話以上好謝謝黃珊珊委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13913.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13914.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
陳玉珍主席李富密主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13929.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13948.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
我根據黃山委員剛剛的這個發言就是說我們這個說要修財劃法已經說很久了也請各部會請財主單位提出這個修法的這個就是你們的版本然後也跟你們講所以你們到現在事實上一直在說還有80幾項收斂到剩3項指標沒有啊那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13953.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13960.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
這個行政院,你們是在懷疑,當初我們跟你講說我們這個會期法案一定要通過,你們是在懷疑我們的決心是嗎?懷疑立法院修法的決心嗎?你當然沒在這裡啊,主計長都在這裡嘛。你在這裡說過無數次啊,我說這個會期一定,在我擔任召委的時候,一定會修法通過啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13974.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13996.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
你們為什麼都沒有做任何的就是還在八十幾項收斂到三項啊?效率怎麼這麼低呢?沒有,因為財政部事實上他正在收斂一月之下是啊,但是我們也給了你們這麼久的時間啊六月份到九月份也給在三個月的時間對不對?到現在我們都修好通過你們幾項都還沒有收斂完成啊對啊,如果等你們那個全部收斂完成地老天荒啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13998.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14026.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
再來講齁這個還有在那個中間的這個修法過程中也有講說到底哪些事權剛剛黃山委員講我們市長也提過很多次哪一些要修嘛也在這裡內政部也有來那時候來做決議的時候趕快把相關你們覺得應該修的這個什麼事權啊錢啊怎麼應該分啊哪些地方稅責啊什麼地方租產應該修也應該趕快送上來啊到目前也沒有嘛不過剛剛黃委員問過啦我們就一個禮拜內希望你們趕快提出相關的報告嘛我覺得你們根本就不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14027.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14042.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
不是沒辦法是你們不想做啦這個大家看得很清楚那114年總預算要重編這個本席牌這個題目這個被林俊炫委員說好像搶著餓太久搶著要吃什麼東西啊這個明明這句話就不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14043.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14066.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
本席說的啊是114年度總預算要重編這句話來行政那天是主計長有在旁邊嘛財政部部長有在旁邊嘛這個是行政院說的吧是吧這是誰說的他說財政修法若公安實施一中衝擊明年總預算可能要重編嘛這個是這是誰說的話這句話是誰說的行政院這個我們李富明李富明 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14068.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14086.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
這看起來應該是發言人講的發言人是誰啦我們李慧芝女士啦李慧芝也說 這就她說的吧阿怎麼現在你們又說 發言人說的是不是代表你們行政院咧因為他的原意其實應該不是這樣發言人的原意可以弄到全世界都聽不懂只有他聽得懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14087.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14113.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
那這個發言還適格嗎?所有的媒體都寫說標題是要重編然後現在來問的每個立委也都認為當初的意思是要重編所以他的本意不是這樣子你是不是說他迫使不行還是表達人力有問題?因為他前面是講到未明定施行日期會對明年總預算本身是很不公平的他未明定施行日期還沒公佈嘛他連中央法國標準法都不懂喔?他在發言你們都沒有聽他準備搞喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14114.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14136.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
他隨便說喔當然是要有公佈以後當然沒有明天很多法令都是公佈或實施啊這是基本常識啊做一個發言人不懂嗎這個發言人識格嗎還是他企圖誤導社會大眾那這樣要不要下台啊那你們今天還要坐在這裡重新再一個一個主計長再解釋一次財政部長解釋你還要來這邊解釋一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14137.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14157.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
他說的這個全國的媒體,全國的媒體也是這樣認為一個發言人可以把一個政府的政策弄到全中華民國的媒體都認為他說要重編然後你現在說他的意思不是這樣子那他也不是口齒不清的話,他就是很不適格啊,這樣不用下台嗎?副秘書長,還是一半米吃西瓜環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14159.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14184.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我們的了解是他對這個表達憂心因為衝擊真的很大3753億是表達憂心嘛表達憂心也不是這樣子發言嘛 對不對對嘛非常不適格啦好來我想請問主計長陳主計長剛剛也很多人提過啦我也拜讀了一下您的這個國立您也是很優秀啊國立成功大學政治經濟學系的碩士你記得你碩士畢業論文的題目嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14187.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14189.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
臺南市政府預算決策之研究以民國9393年預算案為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14202.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14216.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那我看了一下 你在行政院記者會上說 你說你雖然說 你剛剛回答我有聽到 你說時空環境改變但是我們現在說的都是那個時候的事情喔 精神已經是發生的事情了你在 那時候寫錄文的時候精神已經發生了 你在討論這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14217.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14242.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
好那現在講也是講今省前那個整個預算的這種分配中央地方分配您那時候的說法是今省後中央須承接省府稅客收入等1505億元為一承接相關支出2892億元收支並從考量後中央陸部付出達1387元所以這個沒有因為今省而獲益嘛這個您說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14243.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14266.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
然後接著再寫．地方財政普遍困難中．導致臺南市財政惡化之原因出因．緊急低迷稅收途增稅減少．及未配合精神而修正的財政收支劃分法未增完善．致補助款減少．中央統籌分類稅款比例分配不均這每句話都是你寫的吧應該不是抄的吧這是自己寫的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14267.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14270.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
可見現世地方財政瘟疫精神及修改財政收入方法而改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14286.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14312.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
經審前政府每年有1500億的地方金額不斷補助地方歷年還要結餘所以經審前地方政府沒有財政制的赤字經審後已經喪失這個條例的機制地方政府的財政資就不斷的累積然後接著又寫說87年經審我們都在講以前的時候87年的時候民國87年的時候政府業務下放地方財源沒有跟著下放所以地方政府補助款沒有增加減少造成地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14312.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14330.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
有責無權、業務增加、財源減少所以一說經省事實上有的業務是撥到地方但沒有給他錢都被中央拿走了對不對然後原來有省負擔的警政支柱給縣市負擔造成收支失衡更加嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14331.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14347.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
這是每句話都是你說的啊你現在就是你現在剛回答你現在在打臉你過去的碩士畢業論文啊那你剛剛跟我剛我聽到你回答別人別的人說你什麼這個時空環境時空變化之術啊就民進黨常說的那個但是精神事情早就發生了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14348.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14349.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
您的現在說是因為這麼多年來因為我們中央一直有地方補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14370.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14392.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
如果照原來那個是不夠但是中央一直有給錢或者另外可能是中央地方很努力的賺錢對吧?兩個可能嗎?是因為中央一直給錢嗎?所以是中央努力的給錢嗎?所以因為中央努力補助地方嗎?那我們今天只是把這個補助由原來由你們分配的權利變成直接就給地方嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14393.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14408.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
這個只是誰在決定錢怎麼用而不要讓今天地方政府還要來求爺爺告奶奶嘛這個爸媽媽的財產本來跟小孩子不用等到說還要來拜託嘛也不是全部給不過多了9%而已嘛您剛才有算一下9%嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14411.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14424.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
也不至於影響到中央的這個支出啦那你看喔剛剛我也聽到您說啦因為剛剛已經好多委員質詢啦說這個事實上是整個的裡頭的除了法定支出以外剩下的整個裡頭的28%嘛對不對這個你有剛剛有在強調嘛對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14430.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14438.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
有沒有 有嘛齁但是你看看齁你看看我們這個全國各地的這個媒體報導各個不會分是說什麼你看衝擊文化部預算73.3億齁這個國防部800億幼教高教900億這個勞保1200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14451.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14477.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
還有什麼?國客會200億、退伏會200億、百億、衛福部、什麼身心健康啊什麼什麼。哇!這個加起來真的幾千億啊!跟你說的完全不一樣是今天是這些部會的首長不懂胡說八道還是你跟他們溝通不良啊?你沒有跟他們講是只有影響28%嗎?你有沒有跟各個部會說? |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14478.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14487.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
所以這個部分呢就是說我3兆1扣掉一兆3對一兆3裡面的28%因為一般性賭注的話那個30條修不能第一往前嘛所以那不影響以國防經費它將近3000億嘛那3%就是將近900億要刪減那這個部分就是刪減下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14501.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14518.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
要三九百億因為他不含人員維持會國防經費就將近二九四五嘛你知道這些人你知道嗎這些你有沒有看過這些新聞報告你有沒有請你的部署去整理一下這些全部他烏浪浪加起來七八千億喔可能不止喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14519.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14521.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
臺灣詐騙集團很多啦不需要政府部門不需要這些部門再去當詐騙集團的首腦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14549.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14560.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
詐騙集團夠多了不要再繼續詐騙人民恐嚇百姓好不好對不對都胡說八道嘛你看你今天說的我們就聽得很清楚了28%嘛不是全部都什麼幾百億幾千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14562.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14582.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
還是他們還是還是我建議啦如果有這樣散發這種假訊息的這些部會他們心裡的期待就是希望被減800、900你們就按照這一張他們寫的幫他們算預算嘛這個也是一個方法或者我們來代勞今年預算的時候今年11305我們來幫你負責砍3753億好不好你們不用那麼辛苦我們一定會幫你努力做到好不好主席長好不好好好謝謝好的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14592.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14602.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
下一位是劉許廷委員不對還沒有念完 羅志強委員 羅志強委員 羅志強委員好 請羅志強委員不在 請劉許廷委員好 謝謝主席 我們等一下投影片今天這個大家都要做一下投影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14631.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14651.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
今天是常務副秘書長喔?那只好請常務副秘書長。你們秘書長去哪裡啦?去內政。他說他去內政。去內政?沒有啊。他跟我請...經濟喔?去經濟喔?好吧。他上次內政也沒來啦。這我們後面再說啦。但你今天來了你就代表他啦,可以吧?可以。應該可以喔?好,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14653.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14667.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
這個當然今天大家都在討論財劃法嘛對不對那我看喔法案修正通過之後這個土卡新聞齊發大家都砍個沒完殺生四起阿12月24號的新聞立法院通過財政收支 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14668.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14683.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
華奔法條文這個發言人李惠芝表示這個修法沒有定生效日期所以馬上要生效預算可能要重新編列順著這樣的一個說法各個部會就如同這個本席這個投影片上所展示的經濟部說喊300億這個國科會說喊200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14687.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14703.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
還有一大堆的新聞,有些沒做圖卡的也有很多新聞,這個800億,農業部、交通部、金管會、教育部、文化部、勞動部,通通都用28%這個標準來做射算。這個,副秘書長,這個是行政院下的令嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14705.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14728.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
要各部會用28%通算並且做統一的媒體發布有沒有下這樣的命令應該是沒有但是有或沒有沒有應該是沒有有還是沒有我的認知應該是沒有我不要你的認知有或沒有嘛你不知道我剛剛講說你剛才說你可以代表秘書長阿現在又應該沒有和你的認知裡沒有到底有沒有阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14730.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14730.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
因為這一次的財劃法修正幅度相當大 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14748.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14763.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
總金額是3753億少了少了以後就是各部會的當然這個本期並不反對就是說財劃法的修正必然伴隨著叫做事權的檢討這本來就是大家都清楚的事也沒有人會反對大家花一點時間去溝通輕重緩急排一排去做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14764.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14784.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這是一定會發生的事情但是你如果只是講說我說我現在中央要擠出3000多億的預算對不對我做的調整大概有幾種方式如果我只是純尊潔對不對我們先不講明明就會超增這個後面再說但是你純尊潔你也不是有一種方法確實如同這些媒體新聞跟你發言人講的就是大家通通砍掉28% |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14787.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14807.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
這是一種方式那另外一種方式是你通盤檢討你各個部會的業務之後有一些金額大的但是不一定有優先性的我可以多砍一點有一些金額比較小的有必要性的該持續要持續好比說國防或什麼他不能動的也是這樣但是你總要有一套完整而清楚的方案有一個完全客觀的討論依據你再來做新聞發布才是正確的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14809.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14819.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
請回答這個部分目前主計長正在處理所以行政院的立場基本上還在做檢討跟整理的狀態是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14823.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14840.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
因為主席長的報告就是寫這樣子的啊主席長的報告是寫這樣嗎?所以從你的認知就你的了解應該就是還在做整理嘛對不對?對好那既然還在做整理的事情為什麼你們可以放任這樣子的圖卡到處流傳?你行政院作為這些部會的頂頭上司你難道沒有約束跟監管的責任嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14841.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14855.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
因為他們各部會受到的衝擊他必須要表達出來啊各部會受到的衝擊要表達出來這是一個政治上的一個動作啊所以我剛剛第一個問題我問的是這個動作是你的授意嗎還是各部會自行歧視變成通通變自走炮 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14856.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14878.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
先喊出來可能以後不會被砍是這樣嗎應該不是應該表達他自己被受衝擊的程度你今天問題就只有兩個一個是你今天如果是中央授意那我們今天要檢討追究的就是為什麼你在版本方案都還沒有出來之前就可以進行授意進行這樣的處理那你剛剛講說行政院沒有授意各個部會自行歧視 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14880.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14894.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
那關鍵就來啦如果這個是各個部會的各別部會的各別作為你行政院作為領導統一的時候你放任這樣的狀況出現不是很奇怪嗎明明大家都很清楚到底哪些東西要遵截順序是什麼額度是什麼都還沒有確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14895.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14918.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
那你行政院作為領導的機關你就放任他們這樣子多頭馬車各行其實這樣是對的嗎有沒有應該檢討改進之處因為那一天23號的記者會的時候財政部長跟主計長已經跟大家報告過了這裡面會受到的衝擊緊接著下一個層級的話就是各部會他自己面臨的衝擊他必須要表達出來所以你基本上就是放任各個部會各自表述就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14920.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14928.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
你覺得這樣子的資訊到處流傳會有什麼負面的影響到最後如果出來的版本跟他們不一樣請問誰負責這是不是就變成所謂的謠言跟假消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14929.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14957.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
會不會變這樣應該會吧應該不會吧應該不會吧應該不會所以你的意思是行政院現在就是通令大家就是刪28%是嗎因為他的事因為你的版本都是刪28%財務法經濟部就是他可以支配這個扣掉這些所謂人員你們剛剛都算過很清楚啦得28%就是300億嘛國科會就是200億這些等等他就是這樣算的啊我跟你講你今天如果這個東西已經是確定的我們現在正在進行預算審查我剛剛在內政委員會我問科委會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14957.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14975.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
市委會跟我講說沒有通令我說如果你確定要刪28%我們下午預算的時候我們就開始處理啊這樣你還少辦一個追檢預算的程序嘛還比較有效率他說不行不行不行這客家預算我們當然要希望所有的委員都來支持跟信任那請問我們審預算的時候我們到底是要刪還是不要刪呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14978.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14993.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
我必須這樣跟委員報告啦那主計長剛剛講的那個報告裡面講的內容就是我們預算審查的時候分成四個區塊那有一個區塊是不能動的你不要再跟我講公式我們都很清楚我現在只問你是不是全部通令要刪28%是或不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14995.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
15024.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
那因為一照3000億裡面的時候你必須要減少3700多億你算出來的結論就是每個部會要28%嘛是或不是嘛你現在是不是要求大家都減28%嘛如果等比例刪減的話就是要38%那你現在要不要等比例刪減啊我現在問你是這個問題啊因為你的對外的訊息是你要等比例刪減可是你在這裡答詢的時候你又講不用等比例刪減那到底是要還是不要你這個政府機關在不同的場合講不一樣的話然後政令左搖右擺不是一件好事欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
15025.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
15049.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
因為財劃法修正的影響是3753億那這些確定是要從支柱裡面去處理的啊確定要從支柱裡面處理不一定吧你如果真的我們剛剛有講到超徵對不對如果真的有所謂的超徵你辦追加預算是不是大家通通都問題都解決了財政部的報告很明顯的告訴我們前面十幾年裡面六年超徵了有七年是短徵了啊它不是每年都超徵啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
15049.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
15077.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
我們現在就討論114年就好對不對你需要一點時間來做我只講這是其中的一種方式我們剛剛問你你說如果要用全部尊潔你現在的方案跟版本也沒出來但是到處奇怪的消息到處流竄你本來就有管理不善的責任這我希望行政院趕快把話講清楚既然你今天講大家希望還是要以支持114年總預算為原則這我們立法院我們也覺得通情達理我們也願意尊重大家就好好來做處理但是請問你要用什麼樣的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
15077.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
15088.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
去避免這樣亂七八糟的謠言繼續產生你有沒有一個明確的做法因為我覺得各部會的時候他受到衝擊的時候他也必須要表達出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
15090.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
15116.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
你如果想說這是行政院通令他要表達那我覺得那是另外一套邏輯我也不是不能接受但你講沒有啊你不能這樣玩兩面手法你現在講說他可以自己表達你現在講可是我沒有這樣的命令我跟你講這樣政府公信力會受影響我最後一個問題不好意思耽誤了一點時間你現在各部會要盤點計劃性補助也許會改變分配比例或什麼各式各樣的方法有哪一些是你檢討的原則哪一些項目是你優先要檢列的對象各縣市檢討的比例會是什麼請問你什麼時候會把這個版本算出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
15116.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
15135.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
我們要看到的是這個東西嘛你如果有然後你再講衝擊大家可以接受縣市政府如果要用新增的統籌分配款來補也有理有據可是你完全沒有就是這種概括性的也不是中央政策的數字到處亂跑我是很懷疑你行政院螺絲掉滿地啦你這些計畫什麼時候可以給大家一個答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
15137.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
15165.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這個部分那個主計長這邊正在處理正在處理的時間表啊我要問時間表我知道你在處理啊那個可能要讓主計長來處理這樣子讓他來處理這有問跟沒問一樣實在是喔好啦沒關係反正行政院秘書長這個禮拜四還會來內政委員會希望他這個該來的時候要來好不好謝謝啦謝謝好謝謝牛雪婷委員謝謝接著我們請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱不在喔王逸川委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
15168.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
15172.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
鄭正前委員鄭正前、鄭正前、鄭正前不在、院之委員我們請財政部長、主計處長請莊部長陳主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
15198.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15225.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
兩位好我們這次通過這個財劃法我看到民進黨包括中央的各部會你們的講話充滿了邏輯的矛盾因為簡單講財劃法就是從中央先地方先跟中央先挖一筆錢然後要給地方嘛現在是3000多億嘛對吧所以在這一點上面很多人就攻擊說哎呀給了3000多億之後呢中央就會沒錢啊什麼不能做什麼不能做什麼不能做什麼不能做這是一種攻擊方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15225.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15244.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
另外一種攻擊方法很多民進黨立委是在攻擊說分配不均啊啊為什麼新北比較多啊為什麼誰比較少誰比較多像蘇小惠委員他說新北怎麼可以只拿到300多億啊應該要500多億600多億啊那奇怪那個蘇小惠委員為什麼跟你們講法不一樣啊你們認為只要多花幾億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15245.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15264.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
幾億元中央就無法運作了但是民進黨很多委員認為挖的不夠啊因為要更多啊所以我覺得這個都是話術啦都沒有理性認真的討論問題都只是說反正這個財劃法是國民黨要通過的所以我們就亂打一通打到邏輯矛盾也沒關係打到自打的也沒關係只要能夠打國民黨就OK |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15265.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15285.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
但我覺得財劃法這是應該是要就事論事的東西啦財劃法從過去賴清德總統在當台南市長的時候他就認為財劃法要修啊他以前要修就不是迴憲亂政國民黨修就是迴憲亂政如果每一個公共議題的討論都是先扣帽子再講 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15286.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15301.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
所以今天我要非常理性的來跟兩位來討論這個財劃法的問題我想請教一下現在財政部部長你是算出來現在如果我們最新版的財劃法通過應該不是從明年開始試用吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15301.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15330.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
是嗎?是從明年開始適用嗎?總預算要重編嗎?總預算要不要重編?跟委員報告,114年我講過這個禮拜已經開始了而114年總預算行政院重編完了目前大院也在審議所以沒有嘛所以沒有,那為什麼之前你們你們官員又要放一個消息說要重編所以今天的主題就是到底要不要重編啊是因為你們先放個假消息說要重編才有今天的委員會啊可不可以不要什麼事都想政治操作啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15331.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15351.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
你們想要操作就是說哎呀哇好麻煩喔你看國民黨又在亂了啦國民黨通過財劃法所以害得我們總預算要重編啊重編以後呢很多預算拿不到啦預算今天拿不到什麼拿不到啦國防整個廢掉啦國民黨就亂台灣拜託一下你們政府官員不要時時刻刻想著認知作戰好不好部長你今天就告訴大家不可能重編嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15352.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15360.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
不要再搞這些了,拜託一下,所以第一個,沒有要重編,對吧?沒有要重編,那請你去譴責之前放出消息說要重編的人破壞社會秩序耶!很扯耶!可不可以你們內部約束一下? |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15373.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15400.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
你們是公僕欸,你們是人民納稅人群來做事的怎麼會去擾亂社會,製造恐慌讓台灣亂,唯恐台灣不亂,怎麼會這樣子啊可不可以譴責那個放消息的人?可不可以?我們已經說得很清楚了現在現在很清楚,但之前你現在說得很清楚是因為我們開這個委員會嘛那之前放假消息那個人勒?星期三的時候,上星期三的時候我也有說過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15402.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15423.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
因為你有說過所以不會譴責你嘛我們現在是叫你去譴責那個放假消息的人嘛第二個我想請教一下你們講說呢如果3000多億給了地方之後一堆預算都沒有了啦國防也會受影響老保基金要受影響租金補貼受影響育兒經濟部影響我想請問一下很多社福預算如果是法定支出是不會受影響對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15424.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15446.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
主席長已經說很清楚第一個就是我們在支出的裡面屬於法定義務支出當然是不能去受影響那非法定義務支出對我知道只是我慢慢收斂嘛你不要急第一個就是法定支出的社福不會受影響嘛所以不是所有社福會受影響對不對好第一我慢慢收斂嘛你不用急嘛第二個教育經費會不會受影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15447.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15448.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
主計長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15466.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15481.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
教育支出是總額保障所以是用前三年的一個稅率好謝謝你所以教育金會不會受影響然後再來國防預算請問一下我們這次修財劃法其實想要達到一個標準就是精神前跟精神後 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15482.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15498.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
經省前中央是佔總稅收60%地方是40%但是經過經濟發展的影響所以變成中央75%地方25%所以希望能夠本來的版本是希望回到經省前60%40%但後來也修正了變成69%跟31%對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15504.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15516.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
後來是變成69跟31嗎?因為他3753就是9%但是他要一般性補助又維持大概6%那我想問一個問題請問一下經省前國防預算是中央預算支出還是地方支出? |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15517.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15535.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
這是中央支出所以在今審前所有的國防預算都是中央支出那為什麼你只是把原本的地方預算還給地方一部分忽然間國防預算就沒了呢這筆錢從頭到尾都是中央支出啊然後再來第二個國防預算一堆都是特別預算啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15537.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15557.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
為什麼要這樣子又要打芒果乾呢?把抗中這個恐懼套用在就事論事的公共議題上面,這個我真的很不能接受欸。國防預算從精神前就是由中央的預算支出,你把原來的地方的預算還給地方,對國防預算本來就不會影響啊,而且國防預算很多都是特別預算。 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15558.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15577.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
第三個我想問一下可能問一下財政部長為什麼我們新北市跟高雄每一次計劃性補助款我們自籌款高雄都是自籌款只要4成我們新北市要6成為什麼計劃性補助款有關自籌款部分是由主計總處按照地方的財政的立案主計長回答一下為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15578.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15598.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
這個部分我們是有定一個依照財政的財力去劃分啦對好謝謝財力所以你就是懲罰財政機率好的人嘛高雄為什麼自籌款只要付4成因為財政機率不好大量的舉債欠債多新北市財政機率好欠債少所以我們自籌款要6成 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15599.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15615.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
所以每個縣市都這樣搞就好了啊大量的舉債啊但是我們也有獎勵啦也有獎勵一些我想問一下臺南臺南的那個自籌款多少?比例多少?他是第四級啦臺南是多少?第三級多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15617.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15632.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
致酬款是多少?臺南是第三級他會因每個計劃各部會合定的那個比率不一樣並不是統一的大概多少嗎?幾到幾嗎?要看計劃大概28吧72比28差不多幾%到幾%?幾十到幾十?就是每樣的計劃他都不一樣那他有沒有臺南的話他就屬於第三級你知道我為什麼講臺南嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15645.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15670.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
之前不是討論一個議題嗎就是國民黨本來有要提案但是現在說不及的提案就是老人的健保費65歲以上本來的版本是說只補助20%所得的集聚在20%以下的長輩本來的版本後來說改成5%但後來因為大家有疑慮所以這個沒有說要等到有共識在推你們應該知道這個事吧應該知道這個事吧我那時候老人福利法老人福利法那 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15676.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15702.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我看到很多民進黨的立委出來亂鬼扯說為什麼我們要補助郭台銘健保費我不知道郭台銘的難道他的所得稅原來是在20%以下原來他都不用繳所得稅這鬼扯蛋但我告訴你哪一個縣市就是20%好不好台南市就是台南市目前台南市的錢他們市政府的錢就有補助所得稅20%級距以下的長輩不用健保費就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15704.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15728.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
所以實際上如果說各縣市一樣啊如果按照你們邏輯那我們各縣市就來補助啊我們現在新北市是所得稅5%以下的長輩有受到補助那一樣基本是舉債然後去給那個20%以下的長輩然後財政機率搞得比較差未來去申請計劃性補助的時候哇我們的自籌款就變少了本來六成欸四成欸你覺得這樣公平嗎?主計長你覺得這樣公平嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15732.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15743.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
議員提出的部分我們會扣款所以那個他還是也被我們扣款被你們扣款?扣補助款那一樣啊那問題是他們之後再計劃性補助補助款就比較低啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15745.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15767.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
所以這個財政的東西非常複雜我要講的就是其實這個非常複雜我們現在財劃法只是修統籌分配稅款而已但中央給地方的錢有好幾種有統籌分配稅款、有一般性補助款、有計劃性補助款然後這裡面還有貓膩除了要看表面金額之外你還要看你的自籌款比例多少、中央補助的比例多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15768.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15785.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
是要整體來看嘛那現在統統不不不來修之後哇台南高雄跳出來哭說哎呀中北青南外北新北300多我們才多少那你們要不要想想你們一般性補助款拿多少你們計劃性補助款拿多少你們計劃性補助款裡面的自籌款是多少要比不完了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15786.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15786.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
謝謝 非常謝謝葉遠之委員長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15811.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15811.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
謝謝主席,我們請財政部長莊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15842.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15864.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
總部長一整個上午我看到你跟主計長兩個那就一次被在野黨當然也有幾位我們執政黨的立委就多所批評了這一次財政法案法這樣子通過之後那我只能用喔輕痛愁快四個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15866.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15891.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
來形容現在這個情況那早知如此你記不記得在3月份因為你是極少數有延續從上一任那延續到這一任的部長所以那時候你也知道當時我們執政黨包括我我們就提出說針對財政收支劃分法 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15892.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15920.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我們財政部應該提出院版的我們行政院版到底我們認為財政收支應該怎麼樣結果三拖兩不拖的拖到520內閣改組之後你也接任財政部長之後你還是沒有提出從頭到尾 一次到這一次財政收支劃分法被強行通過之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15921.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15950.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
也還是沒有對應政策我認為當初我們要說哪一個黨的版本不好哪一個黨的版本是過分啦是限縮了中央總體的國防、外交、重大交通建設的支出這些我們應該我們提出那怎麼樣才是對的結果通通都不 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15952.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15968.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
那現在被在野黨也來扯說那你超徵說現在超徵一年都超徵三四千億那拿了一個三千七百多億光超徵的就夠但是你看了一下從這七年來確實我們有超徵 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15971.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15996.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
除了2020年我們沒有超徵而且還少徵了222億確實其他年度都超徵超徵的金額也都不少三四千億有的甚至達到超徵5200億之多啦這個部分我今天再提出我就是希望說財政部你們回去好好針對為什麼你每年抓的預算數 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15999.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
16026.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
實行的那個年份都又超增那當然這是景氣豪政府的政策對我們民間的功勞最大民間有活力民間的進步這些都是事實但是你們竟然都預估不到這一點我倒是很訝異所以我是希望這樣當今之計就是說四個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
16029.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
16047.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
市權下放也就是說拿了多少錢去地方拿了3700多億去那這3700多億相對應的那他就應該擔多少的責任多少的市權就是下放給他比方說長照 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
16050.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
16075.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
長照本來在執行的時候就都是需要的老弱婦孺身障者他們的長照也好他們的自立生活也好他們的就學就業需要的交通的輔具也好這些本來就是各該縣市地方政府社會局他們去接駕交通局他們去接駕 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
16076.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
16100.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
我們中央再來撥款給他們那既然是撥了這些去那麼就該這一部分的事權乾脆就移給地方那我們中央不再補助就這些錢大家事事樂樂講清楚也就是說事權下放但是事權下放要有一個前提就是要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
16101.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
16116.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
所以部長我覺得這一個部分事權下放的修法必須由你來主導跟各部會協商看怎麼用這個部分趕快去做這些完成修法可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
16118.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
16136.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
對於委員質詢謝謝委員的質詢第一個就是說財政部對於財政收支劃分法的一個修正其實一直在努力從去年今年初我們收集各地方政府的意見他們指標多大八十幾個那在八十幾個裡面每一個指標的含義內涵我們必須要把它弄清楚才能夠規整那也經過財政部開會以後已經把它 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
16139.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
16158.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
目前都有共識這個指標部分除了三個指標沒有共識其他的部分已經有共識那接下來就是指標裡面必須要權重的一個賦予一個配置這個權重這個權重裡面每個指標配置的權重就跟我們要達到一個均衡區域發展跟調劑財政營蓄的目的要相符 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
16159.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
16184.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
第2個部分我們要鼓勵財政的一個努力另外那對於就是說每一個權重裡面每一個指標裡面它還要有更細緻的一個調整系數我講過比如說人口不能只用一個人口的一個數字那人口裡面有結構的不同土地有土地的面積但是土地面積裡面有建築用地跟農業用地它也不相同你應該必須要有更細緻的劃分可以不同的一個系數或加成我想這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
16187.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
16211.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
您說的這個都對,這個都跟我們在立法院研議的方向大概都一致但是你手邊就像你剛剛講的啊,你手邊都有各該地區各該地方政府他土地服務員大小比例多少農地多少建地多少工業用地這些你們都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
16212.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16238.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
所以我認為在修法上你們才能很快速的做出最公正的一些評估當然就是說我們在做這個過程當中這些意見也是地方政府他在我們來開會的時候他們所表達的所以這個部分除了我們收集他的意見之外另外就是我們的權重怎麼樣去配置另外權數的部分他的調整係數要怎麼樣的加成或減成這個都還要大家要有個共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16242.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16258.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
拜託我公司沒錯部長時間上都來不及他立法都通過了嘛錢都要撥了所以我認為這樣啦我認為加速加速也就是說再來的開會必須要很有效率也就是說財政部內部你趕快 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16259.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16282.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
把爭點找出來啦把到底地方政府他們講的有哪一些不管有沒有道理那到底他跟我們爭執點還在哪一些重要的點好不好爭點拿出來那大家就針對爭點來回答那麼一些不必要的爭執像剛剛我一路我聽在台黨立委一路罵你們我說實在話 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16284.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16300.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
你們的成績不算很好我是這麼認為但是也不至於到要一路挨罵啦我看了其實蠻難過的好那我知道你的意思啦好那那個部長你就先休息齁謝謝我請主計長部長加油啦加油啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16307.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16320.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
委員好主計長年到了你又先報了一個喜訊你說這個24年你還新低我們11月份的失業率降到3.36% |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16322.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16350.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
但是如果去除掉我們農曆年農曆年本來就是因為季節因素那臨時性的工作比較多我隨便舉例像聯絡大街這樣子那如果你把季節性因素去掉以後我們失業率是不降反升的那你看一下這一個表格這是從美國、台灣、南韓、德國、香港這樣做比較下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16351.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16368.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
你看看在疫情期間大家都一樣高美國甚至高達5.7香港高達5.1但是你看疫情之後疫情之後不但美國降降到比我們略高 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16370.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16389.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
其他亞洲國家當然啦歐洲德國這個3.0不算其他亞洲國家從韓國香港新加坡到日本都遠比我們低所以啊那個主計長這一點我一直想不懂那麼你有最近你有跟我們我有問你們喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16395.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16407.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
我說今年的5月我就問過我說你們要怎麼樣來研究改善結構性的失業今年5月我同樣的問題我就問因為業務緊縮會導致的結構性失業現在11月份因為業務緊縮導致的結構性失業人口高達10萬2000人內 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16424.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16444.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
高達10萬2千人這個就不是你剛剛報的喜訊喔這個算是一個警訊欸一個警訊那當然這裡面齁我覺得最嚴重的是青年的失業率我們青年失業率那個主計長你知道嗎高達11.75% |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16447.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16471.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
那你是說因為青年暫時找不到職場方向那但是主計長我請問你啊剛剛我講的失業率遠比我們低的韓國、香港、新加坡、日本他們國家也會有這個因素啊也會有這個青年暫時找不到職場方向也有這個因素不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16472.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16496.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
那你有去規劃啦找不到職場方說我工作地點不理想待遇不符期望我工時長短不適合當然列了這些這些因素其他那幾個國家也都有不是嗎所以我認為主席長你們在失業率的統計查查都過分熱觀還有針對啊我們怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16501.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16513.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
來調整救濟這些結構性失業對結構性失業的房子你們束手無策所以主計長我想聽聽你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16514.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16530.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
報告委員剛剛講的季節性的一個調整那為什麼我們會比去年還要高是因為去年他是影響比較大季節性的調整比較大今年比較少所以相對的這樣一減下來我們又比去年來增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16532.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16549.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
那這個部分就是說季節性調整今年相對比較小那再來就季節性調整如果我們驅除的話現在談到的就是說原則上就是說它是短期的影響我們必須要給它刪除然後來看一個整個結構性的一個事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16550.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16550.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
我希望你更積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16578.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16603.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
我告訴你這個青年失業率我們已經高達11%了11%是大概包括跟以色列墨西哥這麼偏遠的國家相比他們都才5.2、5.3那跟我們鄰近的韓國他們也只有我們一半他們才5.4而已不是這樣嗎還有有一點你回去再 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16605.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16611.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
這個把這個這個部分研究一下啦是就我們這幾年來政府調高基本薪資調高低薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16613.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16634.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
條高這是對但是這這麼多年來的統計比方說這10年來的統計我們的低薪者高薪者高薪者他一樣是高低薪者有條高可是中位數是中位數薪資者這10年來幾乎文文不動沒有任何的條幅 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16635.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16651.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
所以這一個部分當然我們在立院我們很多立委包括我我們都有提出說如何加薪減稅這樣子的案子這些都還沒通過所以我希望說對於薪資中位數者 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16652.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16672.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
主計處你們想想看有什麼樣的方式對中位數者來做提升因為這10年來中位數的薪資所得者他們是聞不動這一點是我提醒你們要去注意的地方我跟委員報告以往我們就是中位數只有年薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16673.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16695.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
沒有月薪那我們現在已經改善了所以我們現在已經有中位數的一個薪資有月薪那月薪是我們還往前推到109年度的一個資料所以現在會有中位數的一個月薪出來那中位數的月薪和平均薪資裡面的一個距離我們越來越縮短表示說大家也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16695.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16699.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
眾位數的薪資越來越趨近於平均薪資是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16718.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16744.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
謝謝王世堅委員今天登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本日會議做如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆請補充資訊請相關部會於週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者重啟約定委員羅明才、羅志強、王一川所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16745.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16772.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
中華民國114年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算營業部有關財政部主管臺灣土地銀行股份有限公司財政部印刷廠及臺灣煙酒股份有限公司委員若有相關預算提案請於今天下午5點前競送財政委員會收件本日議程已進行完畢堂友不在堂委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好我們休息 |