| IVOD_ID |
164258 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164258 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-16T10:24:34+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-16T10:36:10+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6022c9f6d63255a3b2bef14284869b7648532b8eb720c057de83ed45c59a17eb2cb1202a763c6df65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:24:34 - 10:36:10 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 麻煩外交部長林佳龍有請林部長時間悠閒 我索索問幾項個人關心的問題第一個問題是剛有幾位同仁都問到了我們看到9月25號 |
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我們宣布要我們在9月25號之前我們宣布因為要制裁南非對台灣種種違法的不適當的外交失去禮節的一些對待跟做法片面的改變我們駐南非大使館的位置地位跟所在地所以我們祭出了晶片出口管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.145 |
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當時其實我看起來台灣民間社會是一片都是掌聲 認為這是該硬起來的時候那南非那裡也表達了緊急希望呼籲暫停這樣的作為後來在9月25號我們就看到你們宣布暫緩當時還附了一個消息說暫緩的原因是因為南非有要來講 要來談了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.649 |
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我第一個要請教從敲鑼打鼓的晶片制裁到後來只是因為蟲害的水果那個跟這個搞不好也沒有關係這個轉折來自於什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.639 |
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因為這個是經濟部它這個下面的預告是內部的它是有上網所以它並沒有完全到行政院的程序所以那因為出來之後引起廣泛的討論那經濟部有會外交部的意見經濟部預告要對南非 |
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110.202 |
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134.93 |
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晶片制裁不是 就是出口管制就要審查啦對 要審查嘛那外交部有沒有建議就南非這種類型我們再適度的給予經貿上的制裁比如說晶片我們外交部有沒有建議我們有開過跨部會的會議有開過跨部會的會議然後不只是晶片這些農產品還有包括礦產所以我們確實有擬定對南非的制裁方案 |
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135.71 |
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就是有個清班也請各部位去評估那晶片這個經濟部就拿出來預告了還沒有完成預告程序他是先上網他還要走完整個行政院的程序才算上網是意外還是必要程序他有個60天的時間那個上網是必要程序還是意外應該是這個經濟部他們內部就是作業的方式但還不是對外你上網還比較對外 |
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那個又不是上內網這是經濟部跟我的說明啦他還沒有真正啟動所以這一個晶片制裁是一個烏龍囉不是那還有要制裁嗎這個的話不會有協調過那還有要制裁嗎 |
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179.773 |
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就是評估過這個是對他的可能的影響對我們的影響都有評估過不是因為當時說要制裁後來拉下來之後我還看到外交部講說因為南非有表達要來談判那看起來是計劃性的作為我計劃要制裁對方嚇到了對方軟化了好我們坐下來談暫時呢這個像日本劍道一樣武士刀拿起來我不一定要砍下來這個就這一手就很漂亮 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
208.067 |
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236.632 |
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我跟委員說明一下時間點8月1號的時候我們跨部會開會完之後其實我們外交部就有新聞包括經濟部跟相關的單位但是經濟部是基於什麼樣的時候要預告或是它是因為先上網它還沒有正式啟動60天的預告所以大家經過諮商之後呢我們認為還是要再評估我要釐清這事情南非有沒有因為晶片制裁要尋求跟我們談判 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
237.692 |
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261.88 |
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他們有表達就是有一個新的版本就是那個版本從上次說要重新談判到現在也過去兩個禮拜以上了這個版本有進行任何談判嗎他們已經有正式把這個版本交給我們我們也請律師在研議這個版本就我們住處的位置所在的都市有沒有提到他們有提出一些條件我們當然還在協商當中 |
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264.093 |
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288.854 |
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所以有開始協商對 針對他們想要修改原來1998年雙邊關係的那個協議那個結略他們有提出他們的立場跟意見他因為晶片制裁所以才趕快寄了一個新的他們事先就知道我們在我們有講我們會基於國家利益我們會所以部長你是我們國家外交部長 |
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290.128 |
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很清楚問一個問題如果他們提出的方案我們不接受或者談判沒有結果我們的制裁清單要不要執行裡面有沒有包含晶片都在我們的評估的項目裡面沒有錯而且各部會也都已經不好的狀況是我說要制裁你結果又拉回來說沒關係 淡姐我們待會再講 |
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309.557 |
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336.13 |
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這玩狼來了我跟你講到最後這國家尊嚴就不見了因為這一年來所有的項目我們都評估有各部位不只經濟部 農業部還有相關的部我們也不希望損敵三千 滯耗七千嘛所以所有的評估我都贊成但是如果沒有評估東西就往外丟那你就要好好評估收回來比較好還是繼續比較好如果沒有評估就往外丟誰做的誰要負責嘛 |
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337.045 |
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那這是一個國家的整體動作攸關我們國家尊嚴攸關我們在南非住處的地位以及我們國家的利益所以如果有個制裁案作為我們的底氣現在正在進行談判 你談判不成不好意思 我制裁就要祭出了制裁就是一個國家的整體戰力但如果丟出去的制裁好像是來自於不小心PO上網 所以趕快拉下來然後這邊談呢 還在談當中那制裁我們還要在評估當中 |
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366.308 |
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不然怪人家不怕你啊我很怕你們這個晶片出口管制這件事情從頭到尾變成一個烏龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
375.287 |
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396.782 |
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這樣就很不好我們都一年前就十月的時候我們就開過跨部會的會然後也進行可能的項目評估但是什麼時候啟動或什麼時候交涉或這個都是通盤的考量部長我們不能推外交說總體外交部部是外交那現在出的問題是部部自己負責 |
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397.952 |
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因為這是很動態的過程當然我們要把籌碼準備好所以我再問一次我們跟南非的談判對方有offer條件就你目前了解我們接不接受有一些項目我們還是覺得不妥如果不妥最後談判破裂但是有些部分他們有一些彈性的空間我們的制裁清單會不會執行 |
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420.34 |
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這個都是動態的因為這個怎麼樣就是透過我們的掌握的籌碼因為這個影響也是會很多方面那因為G20啊11月要開上次就是因為金磚在南非開之後才他們大量的施壓所以這裡面有很複雜的國際包括美中啦那個BRICS裡面就那個C在影響跟其他的專業們無關啦 |
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447.213 |
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跟G20也無關美國透過助管直接告訴南非不能對台灣這樣子美國參議院外交委員會決議你這樣做的話我們要停止對南非相關的計畫這都發生過了而我們自己國家面對這事情的態度如果我們保持模糊是我們一致性我也可以接受但不能前拒後攻 前攻後拒 |
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470.4 |
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494.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這樣子的話外交進退會麻煩這個我跟委員再補充包括現在南非的執政聯盟都很脆弱那它裡面的不同的包括反對黨所以這個輿論的走向還有美國的反應我是要提醒部長我支持你所有的做法我現在只是提醒你在這個外交的攻防當中一致性 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
495.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
516.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
政府內部對外態度的一致性國人團結支持外交部的一致性以及外交部面對南非我們談判的強或軟硬或軟態度的一致性否則弄了半天也許我們是弄了一大堆東西就只換到一顆葡萄這個不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
517.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
527.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們戰略目標是一致戰術的一定的這個這個彈性的操作就南非住處地位問題以及所在位置問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
529.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因為那是我們的財產我們要求外交部提供你們有關對南非要啟動支持經濟制裁相關清單不只經濟制裁我們法律訴訟也都在準備當中雙方在談判當中我們希望維持國家的尊嚴跟地位跟利益如果南非執迷不悟 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
550.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
563.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們在外我們有哪些有盟會採取相應的作為在內我們國家相關的經濟相關的制裁作為有哪些如果涉及機密請你提供一份機密報告給本委員會跟本席有沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
564.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
566.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們在跟委員做報告因為這裡面涉及很動態包括我們現在有法律訴訟在可能會進行經濟制裁或所謂的外交交涉 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
581.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
605.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個其實是相當動態 包括AGOA就是美國的非洲機會成長法案這些都連動 包括你講的美國的參議院就是因為這是連動也包括他們自己執政聯盟內部的意見不一樣我們跟友盟理念相近國家的協同的總和戰力如果在這件事情上栽了跟頭或者在這件事情因為我們內部公佈的先後或者有一些模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
606.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
628.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
導致的損害不會只發生在南非會發生在南泰會發生在那個拉美所以我才會說這件事情不能等閒視之我們看到晶片制裁的模糊這個前後轉折我看不懂就是上去拉下來好像南非要談那好啊可是也沒看到談什麼而轉折當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
629.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
648.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好像來自於來自於一些作業上的問題那這樣子其實是會讓人覺得比較遺憾所以有關這件事情本席要求跟本席一份報告如果委員會需要的話也可以跟我們一份報告希望如果這報告需要列密等就列密等好不好我跟委員簡單講一下齁這個不只是台非 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
650.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
673.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
之間的談判這涉及到除了經濟可能的制裁還有法律訴訟以及外交的合縱連橫包括他們執政聯盟內部的矛盾以及在野還有理論你要讓我們知道發生什麼事情我再補充一點因為其實他們南非寧可付出很大的代價 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
675.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
694.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他們也會做一些可能跟美國衝突或者傷害台灣的事所以我們必須通盤的去考量之後結合所有的力量讓這個現在的執政的ANC因為他事實上是沒有過半那選舉也到來所以這個很多的考量都是一個很動態的過程我們再跟委員做報告好 OK 好 謝謝 |