| IVOD_ID |
164198 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164198 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-20-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-15T12:16:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-15T12:28:58+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db66e34cd5677a1af0e97bc26f8a2da1058b6741136213cfef621e6da3feca83ab35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王世堅 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:16:44 - 12:28:58 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。
【10月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】） |
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0.402 |
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下一位王世堅委員謝謝主席我請主席在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
53.603 |
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我們請陳主計長委員好主計長你們跟主計處還有包括我們今天列席的審計處你們確實是很用心努力於公務這是事實我確實非常肯定主計處審計處你們的貢獻不過你主計處的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
60.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
84.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
不能有那麼大的差異必須很詳實因為主計處掌管的全國所有包括經濟發展財政各部會還有我們全民工作努力所有的這些成果這些數字都必須很詳實的去記錄詳實的去分析那這個部分我對於貧窮 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
100.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這個計算 我覺得這個奇怪我們怎麼跟世界這幾個主流國家不但有差異而且這十幾年來都差異 越差越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
101.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
123.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們就講美國他們的統計好了美國統計了全世界有140個國家他有把每個國家的大概的這些數字他們有做了一些分析那他們的分析以外包括英國、德國、日本、韓國這些先進國家他們也都有他們的分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
125.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
147.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
所有他們的分析起來他們認為他們自己國家貧窮率大概從14%到16%中間14%到16%我們講平均大概15%以他們認為他們自己國家的貧窮率但是在我們國家我們貧窮率的計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
149.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
175.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們對我們自己國內貧窮人口的占比數我們的計算啦大概照這樣看你們所公布你們公布最近公布的一個是7.13%大概是全世界平均15%的一半一半不到那當然如果這是事實這很好喔表示我們國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
177.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
189.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們居於世界之冠我們消滅了貧窮但是我怕這些數字如果不詳實有很大的誤差那我們不是志氣氣人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
191.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
216.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
自欺欺人的另外一面就是什麼就是說那糟糕那對於我們沒有估算到而實質他是在貧窮線的民眾那變成我們的社福政策我們接濟不到他們這是另外一個更嚴重傷腦筋的問題所以我今天就教於你那照這些估算不但有差 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
218.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
231.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們實質政府在有救助有補助的這一個部分低收入中低收入根據你們公布低收入人數從107年2018年我剛列了這個10年下來31萬多到今年25萬9有減少中低收入從33萬多到24萬2 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
266.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我就把25萬924萬2加起來我們就是有50萬位有接受政府救助補助的低收入戶跟中低收入戶人口50萬人可是這有兩個差距出來了跟我們主計處自己所公布的7.13那就有很大的出路了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
268.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
296.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我們有救助有補助25.9萬加24.2萬這55萬人大概啊大概等於佔我們總人口的2.3%那也就是從你的7.13到2.3有將近5%的黑數那是奇怪那他是誰很怪囉他是貧窮啊但是政府沒有補助他 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
297.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
321.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
沒有救助他這是一大黑數這就是所謂的窮人黑數窮人黑數那窮人黑數還來自另外一個民間的版本的估算那差更多民間好幾個公民團體他們都很專業喔他們有的來自於我們退休的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
322.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
344.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
公務人員有的是各方面會計統計這部分的學者專家教授他們去組成的他們估算他們的估算他們是以年收入不到國人可以支配所得中位數的六成他以這樣子中位數的六成下去算他們認為有12%到13%的全國人口是位於 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
351.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
370.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
貧窮縣的 是位於貧窮縣那12%到13%那是多少人那就是280萬到300萬人欸欸 土地局長那就跟我們剛剛提的低收入戶中低收入戶加起來的50萬人那黑數就高達250萬啦那比 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
374.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
391.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我剛剛跟你提到的你公布的7.137.13的黑數70萬那如果照民間估算的結果那這個貧窮的人數窮人的黑數將會高達250萬人 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
400.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
409.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們台灣才2380萬人也就是說我們有高達一成的我們台灣同胞們他是處於貧窮線 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
411.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
438.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這些窮人黑素他是沒辦法接受到政府任何的福利政策任何的救助補助也就是我們政府努力了數十年全民努力了數十年當這些貧窮黑素發生不幸一般生活不濟的時候我們政府我們全民接不到他們這個就是我在害怕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
440.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
464.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這就是這些黑數一直困擾著我們大家的到底是多少如果我們以現實的觀點來看確實也可以從很多現象看得出來包括從各價位的餐廳包括從一般的小吃包括連在車站連在公園 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
468.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
496.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這幾年來陸陸續續增加的這些遊民的人數包括我們可以聽得到的街坊鄰居朋友新聞報導的很多這些黑素民眾他們如果遇到更糟糕的家庭不幸的時候那會導致家破人亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
497.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
526.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以主計長我麻煩你務必第一點回去你們把這些數字到底是怎麼回事是民間團體算賺呢還是我們主計處這個部分我們有盲點因為你們就等於出現了兩個數字兩個不同的數字本身就產生了70萬位民眾的差距這個就已經是個黑數第二點是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
529.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
546.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你回去跟衛福部 折騰他們衛福部 詳實地算一下到底他列的低收入戶 中低收入戶他是怎麼樣的一個統計的 哪樣的一個資料 不要動不動 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
548.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
568.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他們動不動就拿一個說這個排富條款這個因為他怎樣他拿一個三等親裡面有什麼工作這個可以接濟他這個接濟那個接濟講半天結果這怎麼叫接濟呢他如果有個三等親年輕朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
570.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
592.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有正職工作每個月三萬多塊的收入那怎麼有辦法去接濟這一位實質有需要幫助的窮人黑素哪有辦法接濟年輕他剛畢業自己的生活費租金不打緊還要還房貸所以有一些都變成我們政府單位我們自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
594.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
606.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
自己往自己資格去想說理所當然的你是三等親嘛你就可以去依這個親事實上不然所以我必須講很現實的啦在現實的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
609.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
633.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
陽光底下我們有很多辛苦工作的百姓們都自顧不暇了我們政府不要一廂情願的把這些都認為說這個有這樣子的三等輕所以就不把它列入這個補助就不把它列入貧窮線的補助那這種想法是截然錯誤好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
635.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
651.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
回去數字想計算更仔細一點要接住每一位我們台灣同胞需要幫助補助的朋友第一步就是要從詳實的數字開始詳實的計算起好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
651.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
668.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好謝謝委員那我這裡也說明一下因為衛福部他整個中低收入戶的算法他是要把動產或不動產他有先納入考量那我們這整個是就薪資的一個一個去設算所以我們是7點多他把動產不動產的中低收入的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
670.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
692.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個納入考量之後所以它整個一些中低收入乎才會變成一點多這個部分所以這個部分就是說我們將來看要怎麼樣跟衛福部來討論說盡量這個部分要怎樣來我們放寬這個限制是這樣子好 處長那我也跟您提一下我也跟沈記長也說明一下其實這個我們立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
692.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
712.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我還有其他立委我們有提案我們認為早就應該把這個排富標準金額提高這個我們還在立法院奮戰當中但是我希望說至少我們主計處、審計處在這個部分提供意見給他們的時候要求他們應該與時俱進去調高 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
716.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
731.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個所謂的你不補助的範圍不應該把這個標準還列在四五十年前的標準這樣每個人都被你排富掉了那就講的台灣就均富了嗎台灣就沒有貧窮了嗎事實上不是這樣好不好好我們謝謝王委員 |