| IVOD_ID |
164121 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164121 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-23-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-15T09:40:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-15T09:54:46+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:03 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6849f9d944038dd9b32e8c280ed77980ffda6f2d8e3477dae4ac9ba3278b278f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蔡其昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:40:43 - 09:54:46 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。
【10月15日及16日二天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席 請訴發部林部長來 訴發部林部長請委員長早安 林部長早 |
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部長剛剛主席有特別去關心其實跟本席很接近的議題其實就是詐騙是我們持續再繼續把詐騙的議題再往下談剛剛有去提到這個照片的人眼辨識是那現在台灣的名人選定600個是那這600個有沒有主席這個 |
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因為大概是那個詐騙集團不敢主席可能還要再加油因為他還不算600個名人本席覺得這個數字可能600個還是太少因為不管本院的委員或者政府部門其實這些人都一定程度在民眾心目當中或許都會成為詐騙集團有利的這種借人頭的這個問題 |
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所以不只是AI影片的這種合成的辨識更重要的是這個資料庫恐怕600個人我本席一聽就覺得這個數字恐怕明顯不足在台灣名人我相信各個領域裡面隨便抓一抓應該5000個跑不掉 |
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跟委員報告基本上我們做法是滾動式增加因為之前那個詐騙集團最喜歡的大概就是謝金和黃仁勳那幾個那我們剛開始大概就給他們就設立一個幾百個人的名單我們保護名單後來我們這個名單一定設一旦設好以後詐騙集團發現他沒辦法用仿冒這幾個人他就另外在旁邊一直找然後我們又發現透過網詐通報查詢網的機制我們發現有新的這個案例的時候我們就去邀請其他的名人一直加入 |
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一直在增加第二個部分就是說剛剛我看你的報告的時候你有去提到這個目前我們對於網路廣告 |
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我不大懂就是說在書發部裡面我們現在法規裡面去規定必須要實名制但這個實名制是指的是代理人的實名制那出資者的實名制含不含瓜在裡面含瓜不管是出資者或者受益者都不需要現在到Meta登廣告必須要出現代理人跟出資者都要 |
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Meta才會讓你上去 是這是一個SOP嘛 現在此刻對 沒問題 就是因為我們打詐專法通過以後 感謝立法院的那個打詐專法我們就去要求Meta那他們花了幾個月的時間都已經完成了那之前有一些沒做好的地方我們開罰以後他也都修正了那現在目前如果以過去我們曾經破獲的案件刑事警察局破獲的案件曾經出現代理人 |
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出資登記是代理人 是那代理人不願意吐蝕 是部長你知道這個現象多嗎抱歉 這個事情 |
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請我們那個 署長我們目前還沒有接到刑事檢查局好 我覺得你跟刑事檢查局做一個溝通好不好 就是請跟刑事檢查局確認一下除了代理人跟出資人實名制之外在現實的這個依法行政去破獲這些詐騙集團出現 有沒有出現說雖然依據現在現行的規定但是那個背後啊詐騙集團在背後還是逍遙法外的情形 |
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那表示真的是道高一尺魔高一丈所以這個就我們必須要譬如說加重代理人的刑事責任或者怎麼樣讓他不敢輕易變成詐騙集團的人頭或者讓大家知道當詐騙集團的人頭 |
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這個責任是相當重大的這個可能你要再跟刑事大局溝通一下非常同意委員說的基本上我們打詐的策略也可以講說一方面我們是事先防止民眾被詐騙然後在事後我們要想辦法能找到這個壞人把他繩之以法這樣以後詐騙集團就不敢再去做詐騙的行為 |
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那我們這個廣告實名制其實是為了讓後面我們這個讓那個內政部刑事警察局這邊能找到這個壞人的一個預先的動作如果說廣告都是實名制的話到時候我們要找壞人對於那個內政部刑事警察局來講也會方便很多那另外這個 |
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我們最近新聞上我有看到央廣官網遭害竟然是來自內部的內部人過去我們都在講資通安全其實我們都在談包括基礎設施要怎麼防範外部人入侵 |
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335.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以在立法院我們也要討論政策相修相關的法律這個基礎設施那我最近看這個新聞央廣這個是廣播這個是中大基礎設施是沒錯沒錯我看了新聞這個府大醫院是爆內鬼來駭客之醫院這個中大基礎設施是另外這個在罷免期間基隆市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
336.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
360.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
裡面民政局裡面自己進入民政系統的資料裡面那這是政府這個也是基礎設施所以我們看起來我們要對資通安全的處理不可以只有防範外部的駭客這個內部啊看起來這些案例都發生在最近的期間那部長你有什麼樣的想法面對內部這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
363.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
373.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
要自己內賊啦是他的軌跡該怎麼被處理或者這樣的法令要怎麼去修罰或者會不會處罰太輕等等部長你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
373.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
OK 我們首先來講一下這個央廣的這個事情那個央廣的主管機關其實是文化部那但是由於如同委員講的央廣是國家關鍵基礎設施所以他的資安必須由訴發部來負責的那訴發部在9月底10月初的時候我們接獲這個通報以後馬上就派了資安署的那個專家進駐然後去做檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
413.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
結果據我們的了解就如同委員所講的這個其實不是一個從外面駭客入侵的行為事實上這個犯案的涉及這件事情的那位工程師他本身就負責網站的資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
413.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
440.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
結果他本身負責網站的資安他又到處去跟人家講說這個陽廣的網站資安有問題我們就覺得很奇怪他本身就是負責人那他因為他擁有所有這些帳號他又有這些帳號密碼內部管理都是在他手上所以如果發生這種事情從技術的手段真的很難防那這個事情就是第一個我們希望說我們必須加強內部的管理然後另外我們也希望說我們在抓到這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
441.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
468.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
犯罪行為的話我們能加重他的處罰這個當然我們也必須跟法務部跟文化部等一起合作看是不是要修改這樣的法規部長 技術面可不可能就基礎設施負責維護的這些管理維護的軌跡啊是速發部有沒有能力進行用科技的方式進行這些軌跡在特定時間的查證或者檢查 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
469.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
488.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
基本上在網路上做這些事情都會留下各種軌跡那現在比較麻煩的是說以這幾個案例來講因為這些犯案的人員他可能本身就是負責掌管那些軌跡的所以他也可以把那些軌跡通通消除掉所以科技上有沒有可能讓他無法消除這個軌跡 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
489.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
510.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個我們會應該是有一些方法我們盡量讓這些譬如說用備份的方式或者是如果說他去消除這些軌跡的時候我們想辦法提出警訊因為這個是基礎設施既然觸發部基礎設施之外的我們就不談但基礎設施內的表示他對國家安全有一定的影響跟重要性那這個應該更嚴謹 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
512.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
535.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
譬如說這裡面我最擔心的不只是這樣因為政府擁有每一個這還有你沒有到你可能跟陽廣沒有往來你可能跟輔大醫院沒有往來但你不可能跟政府沒有往來所以你的戶證資料你的健保資料其實這些特定人上網去查詢是 實守可得 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
536.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
565.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
就以我们现在我们所了解我也当过民政局局长虽然我当的时候电脑还没有到网际网路还没有到现在这么离谱这么夸张但是这个其实不难所以我认为说特别像这种轨迹就是针对特定基础设施特别像政府机关谁有权限上去查因为部长这个未来在这个互联网的时代里面这个网际网路越行发达现在的AI越行发达 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
565.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
590.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
其實很多資料都可以串接從你的消費行為你的車子的這個GPS你通過交流到所有的自動付費系統其實我要掌握一個人我只要這個漏洞沒有做好你是全都入了沒錯這個老大哥的這個過去電影在告訴大家的這種很抽象的大家認為不可能發生的此刻正在上演 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
591.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
615.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以如果我們沒有辦法用科技的方法因為要你一個一個去查證這個基礎設施太龐大但如果透過科技的方式讓一定程度的基礎設施它是可以被隨時抽驗被你們抽驗然後抽驗這軌跡是無法消除那這個軌跡無法消除的時候你的抽驗就像國稅單位都會去抽人家的稅來看看他的稅有沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
616.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
624.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以一樣的道理好不好部長這個應該要列為很重要的事情在處理啦那最後一個問題就是說我看看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
626.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
654.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
國家資通安全研究院發表的這個文章裡面去提到說這個中國的這個資料庫有外洩的這個情形那裡面有這個資料庫的標記有一個TW檔案是跟台灣用戶有關被懷疑那這裡面他有提到說這個新聞稿10月7號資安院的新聞稿裡面提到說民眾在使用抖音小紅書微博等中國社群平台這個要特別的謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
656.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
658.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那這個謹慎到底到什麼程度叫謹慎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
660.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
687.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
基本上像抖音 小紅書 微博這個最大的問題是在於它的伺服器設在中國那依照中國政府的法令如果中國政府要提出要求的話所有這些公司都必須把這些資料交出來那像在美國 台灣 日本我們這些民主國家裡面政府是沒有這個權利的可是在中國有這個權利所以我們為什麼會認為說這些中國的這些APP會特別危險應該就是這個原因那是不是可以請我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
688.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
708 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
没关系没关系因为时间的关系没关系部长我讲结论是该什么叫风险提示是我觉得政府有这个责任要把风险提示做好好第二个风险提示里面一定要白话文是比如说我看了这个报告当然这个报告可能一般民众不会去阅读但这里面报告他有告诉你 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
708.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
731.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
譬如說你的資料透過不同的管道可能被勾串在一起那這勾串在一起所以他就教你說手機譬如說你的位置你的這個Google Map的位置的顯露應該要不要關閉或者怎麼樣所以你應該要有一個淺顯易懂的網路之通安全的宣導或者是讓民眾說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
732.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
753.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你要做這個事情嘛這是速發布的事情嘛不然大家會不會用手機啊不知道說這手機啊危險性到底在哪裡完全同意這個是我們努力的方向但是不是寫這種長篇文章啦這個沒人會去看啦好 了解那另外本席最後一個問題我問過了啦我其實覺得像那個最後一張把它秀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
755.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
774.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
像這一家這個我也不知道稱不應該叫叫不叫它叫媒體我也知道你們也去找過來喝過咖啡那像這種真的是很離譜你看這個什麼正式棄用古酒保生死戰拋震撼彈再見了林立這個完全是鬼扯 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
775.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
799.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
主席也是棒球迷棒球迷看到這個都很生氣 生氣啊真的都很生氣 不要說我是指棒的會長他用灰色的那個 灰色地帶這沒有發生這些事情嘛 心力什麼時候叫正式棄用他現在還在比賽 而且前兩天還打了安打對不對 讓樂天可以進入台灣大賽哪有什麼叫正式棄用陳潔篪的手腕已經承受不住林玉平遺憾證實 證實什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
801.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
824.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這種都是假的訊息假的標題來騙取流量那上次本席已經質詢過一次你們也去了想想方法啦這不能這樣子搞嘛你至少你打個問號或者說你可以去疑問的問疑問的想說這可能是有可能發生不是你都是直接了當而且標題粗暴 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
826.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
841.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
他們利用民主自由言論自由來做這些事情所以應該要去好好的看想一個辦法不可以讓這樣民眾你看那個抱怨下面大家罵得要命這個一定要去處理這也是民怨謝謝 |