| IVOD_ID |
163996 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163996 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-13T09:15:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-13T09:27:29+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc3cfc5b1f262c6811eadaba8731997982ef4ee7f50dc8c1790fb57351b41a9d0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:15:04 - 09:27:29 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 有請部長來 請市部長委員長 部長早部長食安五環 我不會要求你背的啦但是江署長大家要背清楚這個源頭的管理然後重建生產的管理然後整合產製銷整個生產鏈然後加重惡意廠商的責任還有全民監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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對 但是這個食安五營看起來看起來是一再證明他失靈了啦 不定失靈了因為不論是巴西蛋或是這個我們之前去年的那個蘇丹紅的那個辣椒粉還是這次的黑心腸事件因為衛福部沒有能夠在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖這個源頭而是讓民眾的檢舉還有媒體的爆料才會去動才啟動這件事情所以部長您 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.015 |
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認不認為 同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯很快的掌握所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
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這個不合格產品的流向以這一次的事件為例我們很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰場是不是合法然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡然後銷售可能到哪裡去可以快速的回應最源頭的那個地方對不對我們都像從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主 |
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但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊那就是案發了嘛那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告但是我在確認是全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商 |
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以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬 |
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那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的 |
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具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是 |
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我们在这个事件之后就扩大市场查核所以全国各县市卫生局都在市场上进行抽验还有业者也都去集合到目前为止是检验出来的产品我现在听到你的人力然后versus这个所有厂商我知道一定是不够所以你是一定要有一些重点那一般是四年一次其实很久了那你说现在有高风险这个食品清单所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
224.446 |
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240.76 |
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我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講審計部的報告有提到當然部分事件查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補時他認為你們人力是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
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那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部講的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾結跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
266.798 |
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286.976 |
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整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
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不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫的這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
315.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
336.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那請問部長 食藥署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍 差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
362.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
跟委員報告 因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這一次的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
363.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
385.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他double counting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物業者登錄平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
388.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
407.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
食品本身食品有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
408.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
423.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
比少於營業稅籍登記的加速喔或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記卻沒有在這個平台有登記喔那同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號請問消息署你們怎麼來改善這些資料呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
427.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
443.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以呢我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一里路最後一里路 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
444.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
458.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
部長 審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發 使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
459.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那還差那一點我們會繼續來努力來折承這個衛生局最後有一個是勾基剛剛您說的那個是勾基登錄的勾基就是他的稅政機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料一樣上次我請您跟這個家族簽手的意思一樣大家都不簽手那以今年來講勾基出來這71萬家裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
487.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
510.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的 審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年 仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大我想他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
512.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
522.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
如今每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望中央跟地方要聯防不要各自為政應該馬上補這個破口 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
527.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
550.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那部長這個食安重要 那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品也是一樣有關永豐市民食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉 出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
552.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
566.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有看過報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
569.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
586.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
雜質 藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件 但是藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢 還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業 報告量很高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
589.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
606.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
要比本身欸 一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下 委員指出的這一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年 我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討 我們看到的是過去的檢討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
607.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
633.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPIC GMP的藥廠之下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是不是你在實藥署去年2月那你還沒有上任去永豐檢查時他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含複說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
633.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
647.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法 不好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實境改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
649.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
674.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那邊我們看到相關的文字後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的他的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率PIXGMP常常頻率會不會加強他的頻率會繼續調整那我再簡單問兩個問題這個部長在裁罰方面或是署長除了勒令停業請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定法源依據在哪裡罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎永豐罰了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
675.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
696.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再回後再跟你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌 這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能 可怕你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措你知道嘛那這樣的話 那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
700.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
722.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
11億很多患病 癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長 累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產 撤照 一個門檻黑名單名單或是說他累犯很危險而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
723.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
743.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
無預警的查核你告訴他然後你去查都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員 建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請把資料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席 謝謝署長 部長謝謝陳偉 學部長 署長 請回 |