| IVOD_ID |
163968 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163968 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-09T09:15:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-09T09:29:35+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:30 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb629bfd73d47f7a6d6a119d4e8153da54efa0e4ffc4b42a1cec857e8946a4dbda255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:15:05 - 09:29:35 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】） |
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來 謝謝主席 麻煩有請秘書長委員長秘書長早警察流言人士條例在今年4月25號總統已經公佈生效了這是一個三讀通過總統公佈有效的法律之前我曾經在兩次質詢的時間當中請教權敘部的官員他明確的表示 |
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說考試院會依法行政那目前正在有關於進行電腦系統重新的準備需要一些時間那所以今年12月底以前針對已經退休要重新計算的退休金會重新核定這樣子的立場跟時程有沒有改變這個沒有改變沒有改變現在持續在進行當中這個行政上的工作我們都在準備 |
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55.216 |
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所以12月以前會把已經退休的人他們重新核定計算退休金的核定還在激發是嗎計畫上是這樣那個部長這邊應該也沒有問題這個時程沒有改變嗎沒有改變下一個問題我們之前在討論的都是之前已經退休的因為法律有變更退休的所得替代率變更所以要重新計算 |
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那不過這個法律在4月25號就已經生效了我在4月25號以後申請退休 譬如今年夏天今年夏天7月或8月的時候我申請退休那這個時候選區部針對法律生效了以後他所核發的審定函是依照新法還是舊法應該是依照新法 依照新法確定依照新法嗎確定依照新法嗎你們核定函是按照新法計法所得替代率嗎 |
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我是不是請市部長來做可以可以請因為我現在吼我必須講個比較直接的啦我在準備這個題目的時候我有請教我們立法院最近這兩個月退休的警察同仁那因為平常跟他們有互動所以我就關心這個事但是他們跟我反映的事情是說法律生效了以後退休的人他收到了審定函還是按照舊法不是按照新法所以我才要特別把這件事情提出來 |
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但是你們說是用新法 那是他的審定函計算錯誤嗎 還是怎麼樣那我跟委員報告 我們對於新退休的同仁本來就是兩個法律根據原來的退服法 我們核多少然後根據調整的警察人士條例 會核多少所以其實那個審定函裡面會把兩個事情同時說明清楚兩個審定函同時說明清楚一個審定函裡面會交代這兩件事情OK 好 那 |
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他從審定含生效了以後所領到的退休金是按照新法還是舊法計算應該是講說如果根據退伏法應該支的就是馬上發給但是因為警察人士條例的差額這部分我們就先審定你應該拿多少但是那個差額就等那個核定完以後他會補差額 |
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對不起我聽不懂你發給一個人他退休的時候退休金領多少錢的審定函對他基本上是一個行政處分對沒錯那個行政處分他本身所發生的效率範圍到底是按照新法計算退休金還是按照舊法計算退休金 |
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233.539 |
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我跟委員報告就是那個審定法從此說明兩件事是我知道就法你多少你說明欄怎麼講都OK 剛剛你已經說明過了我說那個行政處分對外部的法律世界發生法律效力的退休金是按照新法計算還是就法計算我就說他兩個都包括那如果兩個都包括包括依照新法計算的也對外發生法律效力了嗎這樣說沒有錯嗎 |
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那雖然對外發生法律效力但是他現在針對新法所通過的那個退休金他現在領不到是嗎對為什麼因為那個還沒有計算出來 |
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247.6 |
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新法的還沒有計算出來因為新法有那所替代80%所以我們在那審定函裡面有特別特別交代一個程序我們只是程序交代這樣好了啦 就是說你們在發那個審定函的時候不要涉及到任何人的個資譬如說那警察叫什麼名字身分證字號幾號 |
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286.578 |
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他年紀這個全部都不用你所講的兩個部分的那個審定函你會後可不可以提供給我因為我現在覺得很困惑啦因為警察同仁跟我反應說不是三讀通過了嗎三讀通過不是按照新法嗎那為什麼我們收到的還是按照舊法在計算的退休金 |
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287.638 |
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312.036 |
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這個是他們現在他們在主張的全部都是合法的權益啊是立法院三讀通過的法律啊當然現在行政院院長卓榮泰他可能自己以為他是大法官他有他的法律見解 不關你們考試院的事但我要求的只有考試院是不是有依法行政只有這件事情而已你確定給他們的函上面有依照刑法計算的然後等你們 |
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313.197 |
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327.144 |
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公事處理完了以後電腦系統完了以後該補給他們的都會補給他們是嗎因為後面的錢並不是我們退補基金支的那個就是有就是根據法律應該是內政部那邊去支的所以要等那邊 |
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328.525 |
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345.659 |
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預算編列完成他們才補到差額那個是牽涉到另外一個層次的事情啦因為這些公務員對於國家的公法上金錢債權不會因為國家有沒有編列預算而有所差別啦這個是行政法的ABC啦我想不用特別解釋應該都清楚啦只是到時候 |
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346.969 |
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371.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
該依法編列的預算沒有編列那導致國家的公法上金錢債權沒有辦法滿足的話而引發進一步後續的行政訴訟甚至大規模的集體訴訟在取得勝訴確定判決了以後對於屬於中華民國的財產來進行公法上面的強制執行走到那一步 我必須要說啦就很難看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
372.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
400.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就很難看了那個是政府的失職啦那當然我希望行政院可以迷途知返這件事不要再發生然後第二件事情是公務人員行政中立法的適用有疑義由誰來加以解釋我講的不是具體個案的事實認定喔是法律適用如果不是通案性的一個解釋是由主管機關 我們權序部會做解釋由主管機關 權序部來加以解釋嗎好 來 我來請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
401.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
426.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
之前啊我在這邊公開質疑啊之前擔任民進黨中常委後來接任續產會的董事長年薪將近300萬的書字分有沒有行政人員中立法的適用答案是有 我已經拿得到答案是有那當然在個案的追究上我就覺得很奇怪中央續產會很閒嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
429.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
453.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
領一年將近三百萬結果跑去搞大罷免上班都不用上班真的很閒嗎牽涉到具體個案認定的部分人事長率先表態這件事情不應該不應該這樣做不應該發生但是取決於他有請假沒有請假所以這個就會牽涉到主管機關也就是具體個案事實認定農業部回函給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
454.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
478.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
說7月18號到7月25號蘇志芬董事長已經請假那因為請假了請假他要去做什麼樣的事情那個就是他政治參與活動的自由沒有違法對於農業部所表達這樣子一個法規上面的立場是不是也是玄敘部的立場就是公務人員他只要有請假譬如說今天星期四 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
479.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
503.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我請假我沒有領國家的薪水那我要去參與大罷免的活動這個是公務人員他們的政治自由是嗎我跟委員報告根據中立法因為他是屬於准用的對象那准用的對象裡面有些是屬於呢你任何時間都不應該做的有些是你可以請假做的而且什麼活動你可以做什麼活動你不可以做這我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
503.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
522.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們通案檢視這樣 那至於這個個案本身到底是什麼狀況我現在沒有要跟你講個案了現在我在講的原則就是公務人員我只要有請假就可以去參加相關的選舉罷免活動基本的法律原則是不是這樣還是只有對書字分是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
524.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
535.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
如果他是屬於請假但是他去參加罷免活動也不能夠使用到譬如說運用到公共資源什麼之類的在法律裡面有這樣一個規定對所有的公務人員都一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
537.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
559.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
對吧 所有公務人員一體適用沒有 這個原則很重要啊就是看來是有一些基本那個不同的法條會框進來啦是啦 我了解啦但是我現在在講的是說其實我只要你講一個立場啦這個事情不是蘇志飛有特權啦是所有的公務人員你要請假的時候只要不要違反公務人員行政中立法的規定這本來就是你的政治參與自由嘛沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
560.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
582.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那你大大方方說是就好了讓所有的公務人員心裡都有數嘛大家以後休假的時候都有政治參與的自由嘛不用擔心被扣上一個違反公務人員行政中立法的帽子嘛或者是不用擔心我只能夠去幫執政黨不能去幫在野黨幫執政黨沒事幫在野黨可能會出事不要出現這樣的狀況就好了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
584.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
597.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們中立法就是說 請假是你的一個權益 但是你在參與政治活動也不能違反中立法裡面相關的規定那如果沒有請假呢沒有請假那就就是 就會有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
598.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
620.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
沒有請假就會有問題嘛沒有關係這個不牽涉到權序部的職權啊我到時候再請農業部繼續追啊農業部說他7月18號到25號是請假但我現在看啊他公開在上班的時間這上班的時間呢7月10號 7月11號全部都是上班日啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
620.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
648.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
在臉書上面公開發文啊倡議大惡霸在上班的時間上面在臉書上面公開發文倡議大惡霸這有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法如果是上班的時間如果是上班 這個確定是上班的時間對 他沒有請假因為個案我不清楚沒有關係 你只要表達這個原則就好了啦具體的個案 接下來農業部要去做處理時間的關係啊 最後一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
650.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
679.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
之前我一直很關心考機的制度因為考機的制度攸關於全中華民國的公務員我們希望一個考機的制度去獎勵認真負責的人而不是去獎勵一個會向上管理抱大腿的人我相信這是文官中立一個非常基本的原則但問題是我們過去的考機制度非常的不合理列甲等的比例不於75%那同時官等越大甲等的比例越高 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
680.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
708.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我從第一次當立法委員就在關心這個制度所以上次考試院正副院長以及考試委員提名的時候我說這個考機制度要不要改每一個從院長副院長到考試委員全部都提出強烈的批判全部都提出強烈的批判要改革但我覺得有點納悶的事情是考試院業務概況報告及立法計畫今天提出來的這個針對考機制度的改革一個字都沒有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
709.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
736.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那所以當初的考試院正副院長跟考試委員是在立法院欺騙大家說考機制度不合理我們要改革結果行使同意權當上了考試院正副院長跟考試委員了以後就沒把他當一回事嗎是這樣嗎跟委員說明周院長有指示考機的這個部分考機法修正的部分也是在立法院行使同意權大家的一個共同的看法跟承諾所以這個事情必須要推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
736.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
762.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那沒有寫在報告裡面主要是因為現在大概還在內部的討論階段但是跟委員說明現在的狀況就是我們內部有做一個意見交換那現在選舉部這邊也形成了一個草案那我們內部討論之後呢就會跟各機關來交換意見這樣好不好 因為我聽秘書長這樣子講我可以理解啦但是我還是有一些困惑啦把它當成是一個重要的事情要做就應該寫在書面報告裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
765.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
779.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
否則的話立法院怎麼知道考試院認為這件事情很重要我們有在做這些事情只存在你們的內心啊國會不知道公務人員不知道人民也不知道沒有關係上一次我請教這個問題的時候你說你會忠實轉達我的意見這個意見有忠實轉達嗎有嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
787.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
810.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
因為今天的書面報告針對這個部分顯然考試院的正副院長跟考試委員是有打算要履行他們在立法院所做的承諾只不過在書面報告裡面沒有清楚的表達到底要怎麼樣來加以履行針對這個部分是不是可以請主席裁示請考試院會後提交一個補充的報告來 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
811.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
836.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他們打算怎麼做 現在進度到哪裡因為我現在沒有要你攤牌嘛沒有要你攤牌說你到底考機制度要怎麼改嘛但最起碼過去的這段時間當中幾月幾號召開了什麼會議進行了什麼準備到目前為止的工作進度如何打算什麼時候要把東西提出來這一些事情應該要讓國會知道吧這個要求不會太過分吧可以 我們可以提供可以 需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
838.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
861.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
放完假以後交來好嗎 下個禮拜下禮拜是 因為我在你們的書面報告裡面我一個字都沒看到我是不願意講這是一個不及格的報告這樣的話可能有點太重了畢竟你們各個部會裡面寫的東西以次數來講跟行政院其他部會比起來相對而言是比較充實啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
862.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
868.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
但是重要的事情該寫的還是要寫所以下禮拜把你們的補充報告再補交來好嗎可以好 謝謝 |