| IVOD_ID |
163873 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163873 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-08T09:38:45+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-08T09:46:42+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:07:57 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff08bd5db73776c3c0c0a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400f3b915669f50d0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:38:45 - 09:46:42 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況(含上會期臨時提案辦理情形)，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席李主委有請請到主委主委早安剛剛你講說憲法裡面有明文規定我們的總統選擇是一輪相對多數決是這樣嗎我的理解憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定第二條第一項怎麼寫的 |
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第二條第一項它是我整個念出來總統副總統候選人因聯名登記選票上同一組圈選以得票最多一組為當選對不對那我們大部分在討論說法律的修正會不會抵觸憲法對不對我們在討論憲政爭議的時候當然講我的法律會不會抵觸憲法就是跟憲法走向相悖的這樣一個概念的時候這如果是二輪你要求過半才能當選多一個門檻的時候它會不會是選票上面最多數的一組 |
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你聽得懂我的意思嗎對不起就是說如果今天是二輪投票或者是說一輪投票就要當選他就要得到過半的票數如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數他會不是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組會不會一定會嘛我選總統我拿過半的票我就是一定會比其他人多對不對那是不是符合憲法徵求條文得票最多的一組為當選那請問有抵觸還是沒有抵觸 |
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我先來憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求並沒有要求你得票對 你講得很好他並沒有要求一定要這樣對不對但是當你是這樣的時候你符不符合憲法的規定憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選 對吧 |
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那當超過50%的門檻他也是最多數相對多數他也是最多數他們都沒有違反憲法的規定應該是這樣理解吧所以你不能夠說沒有達到二分之一以上沒有絕對多數的話你就不算當選因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻 |
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我剛剛問你講我們大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否叫抵觸嘛也就是說他違反了憲法規定的方向那當然他就是違憲沒有辦法去做處理但這件事情他真的有抵觸憲法嗎他實際上會可能會有超過絕對的多數對嘛不管他有沒有超過絕對多數他都是 |
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得票最多的一組嘛所以它其實是沒有抵觸的問題好沒關係這是法律見解你把它定為門檻就會有抵觸這個是法律見解的問題你也不是大法官我也不是大法官沒關係但我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少個主委有了解嗎我目前手上沒有這個資料沒關係有40個左右啦國家大概是採取總統人民直選嘛那你知道多少是用絕對多數多少用相對多數嗎 |
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這個相關的資料我們還要再整理目前是這樣40個國家裡面只有9個國家是採取相對多數包含中華民國在內那其他的國家包含法國芬蘭奧地利葡萄牙波蘭羅馬尼亞捷克斯洛伐克巴西智利以及等等都是採取兩輪多數字 |
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今天大家去討論這個事情無非是因為現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突嘛招致很多的憲政僵局啦很多人去談說兩輪投票會不會增加很多的選務成本大家非常麻煩等等但是你想想看因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決難道不會給國家給社會帶來更大的成本嗎 |
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我個人啦我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境那要解決這些困境要掙脫出來 |
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他的方式其實是非常多的那在總統選制的部分的一個改變是不是足以來改變目前朝野之間對立的這種狀況我個人認為是還有很多地方需要努力沒關係這畢竟是你的個人意見但因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法徵求條文的二項二條一項規定但憲法46條也有規定政府總統的選舉以法律定制 |
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但沒關係這個題目反正才剛開始我們也不要在這個場合佔用太多的時間我還是要問你一些選務相關的我要問的是這段時間我們除了立法院之前提的這個核能發電的這個研議公投之外還有四個這個由公民團體提出的公民投票那他在這個內容上面其實相對單純他其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果嘛所以他希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除對不對那講到公民投票就講到連署嘛 |
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那講到連署大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署剛剛張志龍委員也有關心這個題目請問電子連署總共花了我們國家建制這一套電子連署設備花了多少資源這你們要不要說明那個幕僚單位補充一下建制的費用當初在建制罷免的時候花了四百多萬沒有啦我問公投啦公投的話是花兩百多萬 |
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兩百多萬 花了這麼多錢 效果怎麼樣目前已經上線 有試案正在使用正在使用嘛 那使用的結果怎麼樣你們有沒有稍微觀察一下雖然你們是 你們當然不能干涉連署的內容這個本席完全理解 但問題是說你既然有提供這樣的一個機制 變名等等那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣應該等到 因為我們是一個獨立機關 所以要等 |
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那個領銜人送件來之後我們才會知道他送來的件數有多少因為這只是一個連署的一個工具而已只是一個工具而已那你們以你們目前現在可以掌握的資料跟了解的狀況你覺得大家有很充分的在使用這個機制嗎我們不方便主動的去了解你連署的狀況但是從媒體報導當然我們也要去關心好像進行的速度不盡理想 |
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那原因是什麼呢你們有沒有去做了解其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦就當然我講你不要去干預連署但是你稍微你講說有這樣的一個機制可以去應用我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同但是我覺得工具就是工具啊而且這個未來都可以參酌既然都花錢去建置這個東西的話你本來就要去檢討它難得有在實踐的一個情況之下你要去了解說它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙嘛 |
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我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑你可以去方便的連署希望大家多多的利用但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了 |
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我们就不方便再去做这个工作因为这个会被误解会被误读为这个本席也不是不能理解因为其实新闻大概都有露出就是说他们还是采取传统的要去设立联署站等等那这些东西其实 |
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到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限我是希望這個反正是結束之後你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整這到底要好用不好用不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化我們目前大概還有一個進階的做法目前就是還在研議之中就是用行動的連署行動連署 |
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你就是做好完整的幾個案例的調查跟檢討之後再來去思考調整的方案啦這本期做一個提醒啦好不好這希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化跟節省社會成本上面可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了 |