| IVOD_ID |
163854 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163854 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-08T10:09:49+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-08T10:22:47+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0ab785cd56e158a8ccea2f7e777e01e95522ce05ac16c04005a7e32037ed90a385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:09:49 - 10:22:47 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、勞動部部長及衛生福利部部長針對「災後復原重建及清理因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另邀請國防部、經濟部、內政部、賑災基金會列席備詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】） |
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好 謝謝召委 有請洪部長 還有石部長石部長我先請教洪部長啦 剛剛就接續黃委員所講的這事情我想這麼多的熱心的志工基本上都一直還前往花蓮災區嘛 因為大家心疼花蓮這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
23.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
46.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
然後當然這個季將軍也特別提到說其實還是有缺志工那當然是比較屬於專業性的這樣志工嘛但其實還有很多地方還是沒有清得很乾淨啦所以很多人都還是會利用假日時間持續在前往災區嘛但是我們這幾天發生的是憾事就是挖土機的這個老闆他本身因為投入到這個工作裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
76.2 |
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其實他今天如果沒有投入到這個災區他持續讓做他的生意持續去做這個執行他的業務他有錢可以賺但是萬一萬一也是因為意外來致死跟他去投入這個災區從事志工沒有領辦毛錢的情況之下結果他受到勞保的這樣的一個一個死亡的幾戶是落差蠻大的部長你有掌握這個狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
77.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
97.781 |
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跟委員報告那的確因為這個林老闆那他這個因為救災然後受傷感染離世這個大家非常遺憾那確實我們現在部長你可以直接回答我像林老闆這個狀況他把老闆他現在已經死亡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
98.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
121.074 |
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他就是以勞保的普通事故死亡他可以領幾個月他的家屬可以領幾個月跟文說明我們會今天其實我們的勞保局跟治安署會進一步會到會來直接主動的拜訪家屬那我們會來謹慎起見我們會再進一步確認林老闆的救災行為是不是單純的志工行為還是有其他的這個勞務關係因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
139.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
必須還是要必須很審慎的確認這件事情才能確認比如說他是不是用災保還是只是單純的只有老保相關的這部分對 他如果是單純老保就是普通事故死亡嘛他的家屬就是領35個月嘛對不對 他如果是職業災害死亡 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
140.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
163.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就四十五個月 差十個月如果按照投保薪資最高四萬五千八就差了四十幾萬這樣的認知會讓我想台灣民眾是很難理解這樣的邏輯我去救災 結果這樣失望三十五個月我如果在職業 職業災害死亡我可以領到四十五個月 差了十個月 差四十幾萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
165.645 |
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186.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個邏輯上是講不過去的我的意思說因為這的確是涉及到比方在目前的災保裡面如果是單純的志工行為其實因為就沒有不在災保能夠去給付的範圍裡面但如果你是有一個比方說雇傭關係指揮關係或者是勞務對價的行為的話在有這個前提的話那可以使用雇傭指揮對價勞務對價的勞務對價對那雇傭顯然看起來是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
213.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
勞務對象也沒有 那指揮算不算我們可能今天要來跟他的家屬確認這樣子好 不是跟家屬確認吧我想在整個現場的指揮應該可以馬上去理解一些這些狀況對 所以我們今天也我們就會直接去來跟林老闆這邊來去林老闆的相關的親友來去確認他的這個救災的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
214.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
234.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
確切的屬性是什麼當然我們現在從媒體上面從比較初步的訊息上面他們說這是一個志工的部分可是我們謹慎起見我們還是要跟他做一個這樣的確認剛剛部長回憶我是有三個這個樣態第一個你說你特別提到指揮這指揮的定義指揮或者是因為他有勞務的對價所以產生指揮的關係這樣子如果沒有勞務的對價 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
238.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
268.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
就沒有指揮的關係就是變成說如果是單純的自公行為的話那的確目前就法規上面就不適用於債保我是要特別提醒部長啊這個事情我想我們可以怎樣的協助要用盡最大的力量對不對我想對連老闆連老闆的家屬而言都是一個我們必須要做的事情這是為什麼我們今天要主動希望能夠去拜訪連老闆的家裡然後跟他做最謹慎的了解的原因也告訴他相關的權益我們其實也是基於一個權力協助的態度啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
268.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
294.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好 所以這個應該可以儘快嘛一個星期內可以跟委員會做一個說明吧是 我想我們今天就會去了但是我提到 如果案例這三個樣態通通沒有的情況之下我們還可以寫出什麼 一站在勞動部保護勞工的立場保護勞工到災區去積極的救人救災的情況之下不應該跟職業災害的這樣的一個離別有明顯這樣的落差勞動部這邊可以做怎樣的補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
295.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
298.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
當然我們可能還有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
300.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
327.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
對 現在就是有勞保有勞保的就是勞保的這個普通的這個死亡給付的部分目前還是會有可是就像剛剛委員說的的確跟災保上面因為投保薪資跟他的月數這個可以請領的月數還是 確實會有一個落差對 所以我才想說萬一這個落差十個月差了十幾萬勞動部這邊可以如何來協助保障勞工去救災反而沒有辦法得到像這些災害這樣最高的理賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
328.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
353.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
勞動部這邊有沒有辦法我想我們會來 再來看一下我們還有相關哪些可以做慰問的這個來支持跟提供的好 我們希望一個星期內啦 好不好給委員會做一個說明跟報告好 那部長 是部長 對為什麼在情理上的理由很簡單因為我們政府機關還有相關的一些單位基本上都有一些志工的團體那平常我們就給這些志工團體有一些一定程度的保障那反而這種臨時的志工 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
356.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這就很奇怪了而且一封一直進去一直進去坦白講這重新制度還蠻長的現階段可能再十天也未必喔雖然當時總統夏令到中秋節以前嘛對不對那現在已經過了但實際上看到很多地方還是需要志工 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
373.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
400.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那這個中間我們說他因為他是臨時的他是一封封進來的所以沒有辦法去做怎樣的一個處理我覺得講這句話是有問題的啦因為畢竟多數的志工還是會前進到這個地方指揮所去接受分配那只要他一旦接受分配工作其實就可以有做任何的登記作業那之前進來他可以馬上登記馬上去做分配為什麼我們沒有給他一個可以臨時性的一些保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
401.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
423.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這衛務部應該可以馬上來做這樣的思考嗎我們來剛剛提到來研議的就是往這個方向按照那個災害防救法來就是先登記啦登記之後照冊然後再指派工作那這樣我們就有這個等於是我們去增調的概念去替他加保對啊我理解部長你速度都很快的嘛因速度很快其實今天就可以開始做了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
424.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
438.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們醫療的部分我們先做了嘛我們昨天就發新聞稿了說要去要先來登記嘛登記後我們就照著這是醫療的部分嘛醫療志工啦但是我剛才說像那種藝娃的部分可以去處理啊可能還要回到各個各個主管機關因為因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
439.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
466.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
各自調動的人不一樣嗎不不不 你這你可能可以打起來啦 我們不說啦保險的保 應該的保也挺夠我們建一個模式出來給其他部會參考對對 你只要登高一戶我相信很多的保險公司也願意配合因為大家都會有愛心嘛所以這個其實如果今天可以建立起來今天到花蓮災區有去接受這個指揮調度分配工作的只要有登記 你的保障我就馬上給你部長可以承諾我嗎 可以馬上做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
467.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
476.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們馬上跟保險公司協調 保費什麼什麼把它弄出來今天就可以開始做了市長再請留下那個財東華人的政災基金會成都島有來嗎這次0923的馬太安這個顏色火的災害我想對衛福部還是一個很大的挑戰因為部長你剛剛上來 我覺得挑戰什麼 信任度 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
491.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
517.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
很多的民眾想要捐款但是費失良了所以很多的就直接到災區所以災區不只志工還有連捐款的單位都很多他就想直接面對面罷他的上環給這個受災戶嘛也了解這實際狀況所以這個人數會很多啦那第二件事情你看去年0403的地震為例為何不是穆德16億喔其中6.9億是分別給花蓮縣政府但至今還有1.6億未核銷怎麼會這樣這個數字正確吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
521.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
540.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
正確嘛 對不對然後花蓮縣政府又自從穆德7.9億的上款至今還剩4.2億怎麼會這樣然後七年前七年前 107年的0206的花蓮地震衛福部穆德是4.4億也全部交付給花蓮縣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
541.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
570.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
然後依照公義勸募條例第六條政府機關有上級機關者因於年度終了後兩個月內將辦理情形函報上級機關被查現在七年了七年了花蓮縣政府僅公佈2022年到2022年的上環支出大項沒有將所有的辦理情形報衛福部被查怎麼會有這種事情博士你覺得這個情形有這麼難 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
573.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
593.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個7年前的這一個已經把使用情形是已經有報來啦但是我們要進行那個會計師簽證之後才會正式公告 應該很快吧剛剛報完而已嘛他再會講是在英語年度終了後的兩個月內嘛所以他足足拖了幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
594.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
613.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
組一組拖了幾年 可以這樣嗎是不是委員我可以跟您報告一下那的確我們有去查調就是當時應該是107所以108的隔年的3月之前那個花蓮縣政府有提報他前一年度所有的捐款那也包括了什麼時候報出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
616.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
643.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
呃 好我事後再查一下可以跟委員報告今天召委排這個你還可以事後查你資料應該都備齊了吧而且是107年到現在的事情啊是 我已經查過了所以中午之前可以跟委員報告我再提供一個新聞給部長參考啦齁0403花蓮重建路至今被貼紅單黃單的建路落成補強到現在連一棟都沒有補連一棟都沒有做喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
645.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
658.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
結果花蓮縣政府手上有衛福部的6.9億以及自己募款的7.9億加起來他目前為止 沙考 矽考他還剩下5.8億喔還剩下5.8億然後現在貼紅單 黃單的每一棟建築物至今 到現在連一棟都還沒有做補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
666.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
687.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
跟委員報告過去我們這一些那個上款都是為了要能夠重塑發放所以都會先預播給地方政府然後之後他再來核銷一個個核銷但是確實在地方政府的執行上有落差所以我們今年的做法都是由我們直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
688.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
713.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個受理所以才會配合整個行政院在花蓮設這個一站式服務直接受理然後登錄資料包含那個帳戶然後我們就直接匯款所以我們也了解到過去執行上在花蓮縣政府的執行上有落差所以我們今年的話會改變這個做法來直接提供服務不過直接提醒部長這些上款早已經給了花蓮縣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
714.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
737.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
然後你正在基金會基本上衛務部都有這個監督管理運用的相關的辦法要去依照這辦法去做執行怎麼有可能拖到現在一年多有這些善款還借這麼多善款連一棟貼紅單黃單的建物到現在都沒有處理到時候又有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
739.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
768.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
對 誰要負責誰要負責所以我請部長我剛剛講的一二三大致上這三個事情我覺得基金會正在基金也一定要有一定程度的責任喔這上緩如果他到年度終了兩個月內都沒有提出來有辦法讓他拖這麼久然後有些事情該做反而都沒有做然後基金會也都沒有跟你積極的一些作為衛福部也沒有善盡監督資責的情況之下我想這到時候誰的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
769.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
776.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
該庫的通通跑不了請部長注意這個事情然後也希望一週內可以提議給委員會做這樣的一個說明跟報告好不好 謝謝 |