| IVOD_ID |
163789 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163789 |
| 日期 |
2025-09-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-4-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-09-19T17:28:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-09-19T17:49:24+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a139585ff62198c513b30e92108cb222197a2d4aae0189fbb1be88bad02b2ffd216a645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
李坤城 |
| 委員發言時間 |
17:28:35 - 17:49:24 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-09-19T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案。） |
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請今天登記第七位最後一位詢問的委員李坤城委員請詢問謝謝院長我們請沈記長麻煩請被提名的沈審議長在此 |
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李委員好沈記長好辛苦了因為我們常常在我在神聖委員會啦所以我們碰面的機會比較多給我們督促給我們主導給我們協助謝謝謝謝沈記長今天這一輪問下來你對於這個你的人事同意權有沒有信心 |
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我是對如果能夠再繼任我對我有信心帶領我審計同仁善盡審計職責幫政府做一點事或者和行政部門促進良善助理這個是大概有這個信心 |
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您的角色跟我們立法委員的角色也有雷同之處我們審查預算然後看預算每年度執行的情況怎麼樣審計是看決算當然也是看預算執行的情況是怎麼樣所以其實立法院跟審計部對於勘檢預算這個荷包大概有相同的地方我請教一下審計長 |
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這個新的財務法修正之後那當然啦就是地方上面我們也從中央有這個撥了大概有4165億到地方去從中央撥到地方去那但是因為這次修法的確比較倉促包括我們在財政委員會三分鐘就出委員會然後最後在這個表決質詢的時候所送出來版本跟朝野協商版本到最後通過版本也不一樣那所以有發生一些問題 |
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那後續所衍生的問題包含第一個統籌分配款的公式錯誤然後城鄉差距擴大市權財權分配的問題那也錢存的地方財政資源雖然增加但是地方政府的執行能量或是財政的努力不足 |
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甚至有可能會發生說你多了這麼多的預算有可能在執行上面有問題的地方因為我也看你們的這個決算的報告也的確也抓出來說很多的地方政府在執行預算的時候發生說你明明有這些預算但是你的執行力不夠後續會再跟審計長再來討論我再請教一下 |
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190.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
因為您之前也擔任過 主席處的副主席長現在是省計長 請問一下這次的財化法的修正大家討論最多的 也認為爭議最大的就是財權有劃分了 但是市權沒有跟著走以您的角色來看 財權跟市權怎麼樣的劃分會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
206.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個在我們相關的法裡面說希望中央一致性的或者引導性的由中央來做地方住住的由地方來做七一透性的由地方來做剛剛委員講 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
207.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
228.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
其實有時候看起來4100億其實增加快一倍所以我是希望中央和地方好好談把事和錢讓地方住住能夠預約事你就去做大家把事情大家談好 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
231.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
249.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這樣對國家 站在國家整體的立場是對國家是會比較好所以我希望能夠借還有435億來平衡城鄉如果還有一些空間補助款的空間來平衡城鄉順便談談私汗錢當時有些像排水 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
256.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
272.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
雨水像現在極端氣候很厲害啊那個排水應該是上中油啊那可能中央要幫忙那如果光地方去弄啊可能白飯碗徹底整理你看當時我們也查出來雨水排水到當時規劃7000多公里 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
275.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
302.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
現在只做了五千多公里還有一千多公里沒做我們是希望那這個是中央的責任還是地方的責任這一個我們是希望現在是水利署在幫如果能夠趕快把它做好極端氣候來的時候我們的潤性就夠所以這個是一些希望但是我們損失上我們會在後面來盡量督促但是這個柴化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
302.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
324.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
影響整個國家整體的發展如果分配那時候的分配很重要所以我們是希望中央和地方能夠好好坐下來談談出一個我們也希望中央跟地方好好坐下來談但是發現說那個地方政府他們喊出來口號是地方包圍中央那沈界長怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
325.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
338.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們還是大家要平心進去能夠大家是我差不多有的事情我已經做了有的事情別的縣市還沒做有的像農業縣它開源很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
341.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
356.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因為我們的裡面都是財產稅貨財產稅貨者就佔了百分之四十幾你要叫農業縣去弄財產稅不太容易中央都會行的比較開源比較容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
357.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
380.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
但是農業型的話其實它有它的先天的限制所以應該大家中央所以沈經長也認為說這次的財務法的確在垂直分配跟水平分配上面出現了問題一些指標性上面你講的說一些指標性的問題也出現了我看也有委員希望說農業可能你限制它農業發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
381.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
410.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
限住他的土地只能做農業嘛其實也要給他機會這樣的確會造成說一月稅收的比較多的一些縣市他越來越有錢因為他分配到的這個統籌分配款其實增加了那其實對一些中南部的農業縣市來講指標相對來講對他也不利啊那就變成說我們本來修財化法是希望說能夠均衡這個地方各個縣市的發展那不夠的本來是中央透過這個一般性補助或是計畫性的補助來調衡嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
411.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
424.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
現在變成沒有這個彈性了現在你全部都下去給地方然後就發生說我等一下後續會再跟審計長討論的問題如果現在按照目前所通過的裁判法會影響到說後續的你們審計的一些作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
429.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
455.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
會 因為我剛剛提到它原來2014年的統籌分配款4600億是歷年來相當高的一個部分現在大幅增加到8000多億這些如果進到它的那個各機關去我們的地方的損失量能產生衝擊這一個我們已經在想辦法因應要怎麼因應大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
455.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
471.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第一個我要聯合損棄這幾個七億啊聯合損棄第二個我要用AIAI是我當助理當顧問我要去損棄以前我要去看這個淡水河的時候我要看什麼AI會告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
472.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
499.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
完了以後這個怎麼樣整合但是最後由我們審計人員來做判斷因為我告訴我們審計人員做任何事安全第一你租姓 租姓安全第一所以我也請我們的租姓市長每個月幫我查一次這些像外面拿來的那些數位資料我們不能出任何差錯所以這個大概我們用數位審計來 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
501.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
來做 會AI來做那最主要會用數位損盡大概希望能夠幫地方政府看出因為其實損盡是應該如果所長願意的話可以把損盡當朋友因為損盡你有時候你當一個所長千頭萬系 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
522.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
538.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
審計去幫你看 如果那個報告也是要把主計跟審計都當好朋友對 你要把它 人家審計講的有道理那如果別的道理 你可以告訴審計你的觀點可能有問題 我們的觀點可能有問題那如果我講的對 他們應該要趕快去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
543.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
559.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我再請教一下審計長我有看你們這個審計報告我剛才提到就是說我們希望說地方政府拿到這個預算之後當然能夠去好好的執行所以我們也討論到它的執行力但是幾個比較大的案子譬如說像花蓮縣政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
560.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
574.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
他們議會也提到花蓮縣政府很多的計劃都是倒著做計劃先想出來了然後再去想說接下來要去怎麼樣去做所以包含什麼鄉縣大道青年住宅等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
575.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
597.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
事前都沒有做過可行性評估導致推動後遇到許多的問題審計部在決算報告中都有做檢討 這第一個基隆也有 基隆就是說在113年度的總決算審核報告當中也指出來基隆市政府重大建設計畫執行率偏低部分計畫低於六成 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
598.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
609.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
顯示推動的效能不足提到就是說你有錢但是你沒有執行力還有你們在113年的審核報告中也提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
611.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
632.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
中央有編列計劃預算8.6億要來協助地方改善殯葬設施不足及老舊的問題但是計劃期屆將滿半數的績效指標累計達成率未及三成很多啦 我就舉一些重點來看然後還有地方補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
634.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
658.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
中央補助地方2.4億發展地方創生然後省基部也舉出來就是說九成的計畫沒有人按照期限來完成這個撥給地方總共2億4829萬然後兩成的計畫核定後測案九成的計畫未能一線完成這是國發會給地方做的這個地方創生等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
659.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
677.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
回到我剛開始問審計黨的問題這樣我們也擔心一下子地方多了比過去多了一倍的4165億的統籌分配款再加上現在在野黨要求計劃性的補助款跟一般性的補助款都不能低於前年度的撥補預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
680.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
709.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
問題來了那會不會造成我剛才講就是說那你拿到這麼多錢了那你現在發生執行力的問題因為你第一個我們也還看不到說到底現在各個縣市的對於拿到這麼多的預算他的計劃有沒有提出新的計劃第二個他的公務員的能力就是這樣子就是這麼多他有沒有辦法來執行這麼多的預算那會不會最後造成說這些預算有可能會變成浪費或是甚至你沒有辦法執行到這些預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
711.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
717.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我剛剛講餅就是這麼大切了以後有的多了有的少了但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
718.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
746.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
他的一個組織型態就是原來的所以這個族群上有時候會一下子前來了不知道怎麼用的確會發生這種情況因為我剛才舉了好幾個例子就是已經給地方了地方也提出計畫了但是地方的執行力有問題那這個是還是過去已經按照這一個計畫給的那現在是你多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
747.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
761.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這麼多多了是事件多餘那我也擔心就是說那中央的好意在地方上面會不會變成執行上面的一個困擾像這種中央以前給的我們會希望他要規劃好所以順忽使 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
763.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
787.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
一個事情規劃很重要再來它因為整個建設有前週期生命週期差不多一直規劃到營運它是有五個階段的但是規劃的時候是很重要你如果規劃的剛剛委員講你沒有規劃好以後整個族型的時候發現這裡也有問題那裡也有問題所以會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
788.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
806.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
一些困境沒辦法執行或者是效能不佳這個是一個問題再來委員談的我也去注意到因為地方給了這麼多我們114年到6月我們有查地方的公共建設 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
810.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
830.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
1066項其中有超過八成的只有四個單位其餘都低於八成所以你說只是低於八成其餘有四個單位是高於八成以上有剩下到六月 六月 今年的六月他們大概我們就先預警 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
830.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
858.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
他們可能會趕工 會處理但是所有的事情在規劃我希望這些事情你要提前就把方案規劃好放著錢來了方案提出來再檢討一下根據實際方案再修正就可以趕快發報 趕快做現在看起來不是這樣子現在看起來是先有錢了計畫行還沒有看出來他因為先有錢來了但是因為其實是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
859.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
878.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我看了統籌會議是多了但是一般性補助款是維持但是計畫型是有減了一些所以加起來他沒有多到那麼多所以整個所以要中央和地方要坐下來好好談一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
879.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
904.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你這樣看計劃性補助款因為中央的餅就是這麼大所以說統籌分配款增加了那計劃性補助款中央可能會本來是屬於就是我們在講的財權跟市權有些是屬於這個地方應該要處理的所以中央就不做這個補助了當然也引起地方上面一些反彈但是在野黨他們打算修這個財化法他就是說計劃性補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
905.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
922.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這個你也不能少一般性補助款你也不能少所以那個彈性就沒有了所以我一直希望中央和地方我們是站在全國一體全國一體這個是我們只有台灣這個島我們希望每個人都好 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
923.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
949.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我都不是說希望目前的採劃法的修法至少目前修成這樣子你有認為說對台灣整個20個縣市都好嗎那個看在最後因為剛好他有產生一些矛盾所以有機會大家再談 談好像你剛才講的六都非六都台北市 大家怎麼樣怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
951.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
963.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
當然行政院已經有答應說不會少於114年的那些一般性補助款、統籌分配措款加起來的總額行政院的善意是已經釋出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
965.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
992.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 那再請教一下這個沈縣長剛剛你也提到就是說一些財劃法的指標性的問題就是說目前在這個指標裡面它的分配共識裡面對於人口數還有這個營利事業營業額的指標合起來佔了75%左右這也是我剛才所擔心就是說你如果把這個指標放在這裡的話當然對於雙北桃園六都來講可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
993.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1018.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所增加的統籌分配款會比較多但是對於非六都的這些農業縣市來講就有可能會相對來講會減少甚至連彰化縣這麼大的一個縣它其實人口數也算多但是它有可能因為它本身屬於工廠的部分大公司的部分比較少所以在這次的統籌分配款裡面它拿的其實相對其他六都來講是少的那請教一下就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1019.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1037.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
按照目前的修法的公式來看的話沈介掌有沒有認為有什麼可以需要再做調整的地方讓城鄉差距的差距我們本來要縮小但是這次財務法修法之後我們沒有看到城鄉差距的縮小反而讓它擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1038.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1054.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這個因為分配本來在分配之前如果能夠做一些大家談因為分配出去大家都知道我可以拿多少如果少 對他來講是一個衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1056.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1074.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以坐下來談 大家談到把這些談到一個合理的數字能夠幫助窮鄉僻壤或者能夠讓建設還沒開始的怎麼談 沈界長這邊有沒有什麼因為你每年的決算你都可以看得出來說各個縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1075.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1091.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
在执行某一些执行预算的时候出现了一些问题那么按照你的角度来讲怎么谈对于财务法的修正未来不论是行政院如果提出自己的版本的话那要怎么样去修会比较好一点 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1092.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1120.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這一個我是沒有去因為這不是我的主軸所以我沒有做那麼深入的探討沒有做那麼深入的探討所以我只有三個部分都要統籌分配稅款一般性補助款還有計畫型補助款要看還有地方的財政開源能力地方的稅入也要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1122.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1145.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
如果要看地方的稅入或者稅出其實三年平均以後它會出現它的一個水準出來或者是稅出三年平均以後它會出現一個水準出來我們不要影響它的水準讓它能夠我們大家都能夠越來越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1147.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1175.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我的意思就是說現在的確有出現這些問題了所以沒有達成我們希望說修了財務法之後能夠越來越好嘛因為包含這些農業縣市的這些立委也提出不同的看法那當然修法的源頭還是在立法院因為不論這個公司的錯誤或是說未來有關這個財務法怎麼修修法的源頭還是要回到立法院來那當然行政院我也認為說要有自己的一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1177.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1205.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個件事情證明了說其實在野黨在才化法的修正上面我認為他沒有做好全盤的了解所以才造成說一個才化法衝突修完之後產生這麼多的問題所以我也建議說我們的財政部能夠提出一個比較完善的版本來修改讓這個才化法修完之後能夠對於這些城鄉的差距或是說這些城市還有非城市的農業縣市的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1206.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1221.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這個差距能夠越來越小啦我只是說省計長站在這一個省計的一些角度上面不妨也給我們一些指導啦因為柴耀華是牽涉到很多人大家都不太容易擺平所以都 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1222.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1248.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
要不行政院 為什麼要中央和地方要談很多次 大家好好談談出最適合我們整個臺灣全體人民的一個方式大家不能說哪一個怎麼樣哪一個怎麼樣所以盡量來因為它是涉及好 謝謝李坤貞 |