| IVOD_ID |
163787 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163787 |
| 日期 |
2025-09-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-4-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-09-19T16:46:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-09-19T17:07:05+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a139583e9c28c0b93bea8092108cb222197a2d4aae0189fbb1be882e4c1f89cce6e4775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:46:20 - 17:07:05 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-09-19T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案。） |
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好 主席在場委員先進列席了政務機關社長官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體集團女士先生有請我們陳審計長被提名麻煩再請被提名的陳審計長 |
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總委好 沈記長好稱呼您沈記長 因為您現在就是沈記長對不對沈記長 過去你有沒有聽過 時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變有沒有聽過這句話 有 誰說的誰說的我當然不知道咧 我知道現在極端氣候讓整個 連總統蔣經國先生說的啦蔣經國先生說的 但是通常人家會說有所變 有所不變 請問一下 |
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相約四年前我們的審計長被提名的人有沒有改變?沒有嘛 還是你嘛對不對 那我們來看一下那如果人選沒有改變我們看審計法有沒有改變審計法有來選擇有財務審計有績效審計是不是跟以前一樣?對的如果說人沒有改變法律的制度沒有改變 |
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107.56 |
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那是什麼改變我們審計今天要重新來對您的任命進行同學的行使我們不禁要問要問有改變的地方嗎對不對對人家說財政是肅政之母你同意嗎同意同意好那麼因此呢就你審計的角度來講審計部的權責審計長的最重要的功能就是對於財政來進行審計嗎政府的財政對政府的預算政府的財政擁擠政府的財政當是 |
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110.433 |
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137.281 |
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現在來看新版的財劃法它是我們最主要的改變對不對變化可能會很大今年變化還蠻大的那你對財劃法了解嗎有所了解我們財劃法分成統籌分配稅款對不對一般型補助計劃型補助是不是這樣子那麼新版的財劃法它有哪些改變是不是在中央跟地方我先問你統籌分配稅是哪三個稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
142.207 |
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162.38 |
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所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅有沒有改變?沒有改變嗎?改變的是中央分配給地方的%就更多了嘛所以地方得到統籌分配就增加了嘛那請問中央跟地方的垂直分配改變了但是地方的水平分配根據什麼來分配? |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
163.425 |
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187.965 |
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根據本來財劃法是應該要跟財政貢獻度嘛新法是這樣但是要法的主要立場是在基本國策沒有錯但是基本上因為這三種稅六都跟非都來看是不是他們的財政貢獻度六都比非六都來的大 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
188.547 |
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216.227 |
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因為營業稅啊 所得稅啊 貨物稅啊你人多 錢就多 稅就多分配回去也是更多結果這麼一來我們將中央給地方的統統分配增加之後有沒有改善地方水平分配的貧富不均這個可能要好好坐下來談因為呢 規模擴大但是分配的公式以貢獻度來看只是把貧富的差距拉大而已我們再往下看那麼一般性補助款用在哪裡 |
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一般是補助人在調製財政營利好包括了教育社福基本設施還有其他的基本支出對不對經常性普遍性基本建設還有維運的性質對不對但是很重要的要能財政均衡請問一下100公斤的人跟50公斤的人誰的飯量比較大 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
242.592 |
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258.37 |
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所以六都來講他人口多他的基本需求多所以他獲得分配的一般補助一定比其他人口較小的縣市非六都來的多嘛對不對但是中央怎麼樣均衡中央只有用財力的分配 |
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259.494 |
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278.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
中央對你地方需求多的我要給你多你需求較少的就給的少頂多是非六都的財力比較不足我給你的比例比較高可以給到九成如果是六都的你的財力比較好雖然你的需求大我給你的比例就沒有達到九成比較少可能七成是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
302.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
但是中央政府只能在一般性補助款透過這樣的小小的方式去調節那基本上一般性補助還是根據你六都跟非都的人口規模來設算所以呢六都當然一般性補助領的多非都的領的少是不是這樣那我們來看那最後最後還剩一個叫計劃型補助那如果照這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
303.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
321.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
富者恆富 貧者欲貧那我們怎麼樣去改變這些經濟發展甚至人口較少的非都怎麼提升提升他的財政的貢獻能力我們常說壽人以魚不如壽人以魚給你一尾魚不如給你一根釣竿你同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
322.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
337.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以計劃型補助是不是說如果你這些財政能力較差的縣市你提出好的計劃型那我中央給你幫助你提升讓你未來的財政改善這是不是中央最重要的調節地方均衡發展的一個手段 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
339.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
362.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
就像說我們對於有錢人家他不需要太多的支持窮人家的小孩你幫他上進念書他以後出了社會他可以改善他家庭的生活經濟這就是我們的目的請問現在我們目前的新版財化法有沒有辦法擴大中央用計劃型補助來均衡地方發展的這個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
364.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
376.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因為計畫性已經看起來因為他的餅這麼大他沒辦法因為就減少很多所以就應該是比較難 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
377.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
403.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以我們看到這個圖統籌分配稅款根據你的財政貢獻度這裡面六都比非都來得強我們再來看一般型補助款飯量大的吃的比飯量少的來得多中央能夠幫助有限最主要能夠調節台灣各縣市的均衡發展就是計劃型補助結果我們新版的財發法雖然從中央拿九道的稅款給地方但是是擴大了都跟非都的差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
404.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
430.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
然後中央給地方的一般性補助又不能縮小還是一樣都比非都拿的多最後非都得以翻身的計劃性補助中央變少了是不是這樣子那我們怎麼辦來我舉個例子那現在我們來看一下中央給地方多了4165億的統籌分配稅款不管水平怎麼分請問地方政府的市權有沒有增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
432.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
435.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這次採訪還沒談到沒有談到 簡單講就像我們辦個團善 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
437.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
465.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
50人要吃一個暗桶給你一個買菜的錢結果呢 人數沒增加 菜錢增加你覺得說這檔菜要怎麼辦是不是要比較稠稠的 對嗎要快一點快一點所以就你們審計的角度如果地方政府獲得更多的統籌分配 稅款的分配但是要做的事情 事權沒有增加你覺得你審計的任務是不是更加重要對 那我來請教一下 我們常常說啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
466.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
476.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
有錢花跟盡量花這是我們最受歡迎的兩種花你知道還有第三種花嗎叫做拚命花 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
477.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
501.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
現在台北市政府本來財政就比較好這是財化法下去的結果他又多了四五百億請問一下 你的審計單位有同時增加對台北市政府多了這麼多錢他不只是有錢花 他不只是盡量花他還拼命花那事情沒成功 錢變多了會產生什麼問題 亂開嘛那審計是不是要防止地方政府亂開這是我們的主軸 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
505.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
528.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那請問一下 那麼我說時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變但是審計黨沒有變 審計法沒有變但是地方都的財源變多了 事情沒有增加請問審計部要不要對這些地方未來多了那麼多錢 怎麼花 要嚴加審計是不是對那你們有增加人手嗎沒有沒有 那怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
529.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
556.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我現在是用科技AI 數位這樣來做也要地方這樣來做如果必要的時候我們會請證人好 我們來看一下這是你113年的審計報告他說直轄市跟縣市政府有計劃實施成效執行率偏低的情況管理作業欠當 是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
556.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
572.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有這樣的現象結果呢 我們的事前分配 地方的事情沒有增加執行的量沒有增加你的審計能力也沒有增加結果給他更多的錢那你覺得你要怎麼樣在新版參法法之下做好你對地方政府的審計 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
573.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
597.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們還是會盡到我們的主軸啦但是這是我們的審計的主要主軸這個我們會再來加強這個監督的力道所以如果事權隨著裁員來移轉到地方政府譬如說本來學校的電費是中央補助現在地方政府錢多了電費自己出對你們審計作為來講是不是比較合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
599.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
622.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們是準備 像這個部分我們要進行聯合審計 科技審計那我們再來問一下 之前我請教過你屏東縣的自來水普及率 電底 全國是95%台北市是99.83% 屏東只有41%那時候我跟你請教這個普及率問題呢屏東圍22個縣是排最後面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
623.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
652.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以我就請教 上次您說到說相較於其他縣市持續提高屏東縣的自來水普及的預算這個效益是最好的 你是不是同意同意 完全同意所以屏東特別需要中央多的資源來協助提高它的自來水的改善讓人民的生活品質提高對不對對好 那我先問你這次財化法公布之後有九個縣市貨配的補助更少了 有沒有對屏東是不是其中之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
654.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
664.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
他是行政院有出來答應說不會低於114那是行政院的說法那請問這個錯誤怎麼發生我們看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
665.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
682.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個是低級錯誤啊裁判法16條之一在黨提出的法案本島19縣市跟離島3縣市通通以22個做分母結果呢本島的部分有0.28無法分配離島的部分有高達99.8%無法分配你覺得這個錯誤是不是很可笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
686.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
711.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個立法上有稍微沒有注意到那如果說全國像屏東縣需要中央大力支持自來水普及的中央的錢變少了跑到其他的有錢的都去了那請問我要問你在這個財化法就算這個錯誤公式修改之後你覺得改過之後的財化法對於我們目前無自來水地區供水改善計畫的第五期有沒有受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
713.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
737.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
中央還有錢做嗎這個前瞻第五期啊前瞻第五期最近通過他大概是無知來水的這個部分大概有一百多億我是希望能夠幫忙屏東因為屏東啊那要中央有錢啊中央沒有錢怎麼幫忙屏東因為那個預算已經過了那個經濟部州106億啊前瞻已經過了你說106億地方要不要配合款 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
742.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
761.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
地方大概都一般都要有配合款結果我們屏東在裁判修改之後我們貨配額數少於修法之前就算中央的錢沒有減少我們地方的能力變少了我們的嚴管工程怎麼做我們戶外用戶的外線工程怎麼做你覺得有什麼辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
762.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
786.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
如果未來屏東自來水改善不理想你省紀部要不要來糾正屏東縣政府還是要糾正經濟部因為是這樣吼因為無住來水地區的改善屬於住來水公司我們會糾正經濟部住來水住來水公司但是巧戶難為無米之炊啊我們錢變少了我們怎麼樣來如期完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
787.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
809.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
因為屏東是低的我看當時委員執行我的時候我看那個比例其實那個比例經過了一年增加不大那是以前有錢明年開始沒有錢所以我是希望這106億經濟部盡量用在屏東用鼓勵的機制幫忙屏東這些人能夠去接管 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
809.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
828.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
謝謝啦 省局長 感謝你啦但是屏東縣被分配到的錢變少了作為經濟部繼續支持 全力支持我們的自備款 配合款還是不夠來 我們看下一題我們看到新聞報導說行政院要發津貼每一胎補足到10萬你覺得發津貼可以改善生育率嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
829.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
853.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
就是因為我們少數化是一個國安問題啦是蠻低的各種多元方式都要嘗試這是一種嘗試的方式我們非常因為我們審計的時候我審計了他四年他終於有提出說要一個花十萬啦我認為我跟你講你們自己審計部在2016年你們點名屏東山鄉鎮我們有鄉鎮做的一些生育補貼 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
858.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
887.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
第四胎甚至大方送到10萬結果呢 屏東一樣人口沒有增加甚至還繼續減少感覺上 前面的做法有沒有效果前果都有這樣的一個現象所以有婚禮宅也出來了有一個補助10萬也出來這時候 這都是我們當時查所提出的建議你們建議 建議10萬嗎還是說養一個小孩所以統計要668萬要多元來處理這些事多元 來 我們看一下學者有研究過 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
888.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
913.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
中央研究院的基金所的研究員說啊2023年如果獲得分配100萬以上在往後的6年生育率呢會提高到多了0.07啊不要說10萬啦 給你100萬喔你家裡生的沒零點一個啦但是如果給你1000萬的話呢每100個家庭就會多25個小孩好一點 你覺得政府有可能給生小孩的家庭每一個多1000萬嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
914.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
929.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我對政府的財政衝擊很大所以要多元方式所以說我請問一下低生育率問題不是要不要生結婚要怎麼生 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
930.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
944.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以就有學的說低生育率的關鍵密碼不是不生小孩是不結婚那你覺得如果我們結婚每一個人第一次結婚政府給他上五十萬的大紅包你覺得怎麼樣 有機會嗎因為這樣來結婚嗎這個是一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
949.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
961.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
謝謝委員 我們的看法和你一樣因為我們台灣的主女大部分都是分生主女96%都分生主女所以結婚是很重要的與其鼓勵生育不如鼓勵結婚兩個都有鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
968.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
990.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你給我十萬 我記得要持到十八歲對不對 但是我就不要結婚啊你如果給我五十萬 我來結婚結的金錢 我自己來處理好 所以目前呢 我們說啊結婚大禮包至少要五十萬如果現在是出十萬啦是不是剛做回來剛好所以說政府說你叫我們的產婦啊 你要做回來政府給你十萬塊做回來你覺得民眾是不是感覺剛好窩心 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
996.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1020.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這個是 也是一種方式啦這個可以啊 雙管齊下雙管齊下 做回來 給你十萬塊做回來高利貸你盡量這好 那是國安問題啊好 我們繼續往下看那少子化的對策 你看一看0到6歲的國家養友善家庭的職場兒童健康的權益保障友善的生育配套從107到114審計報告覺得有沒有太 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1024.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1044.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
有沒有效果 有沒有建議有 剛剛委員講他這個因為花掉國家從107到114花掉7000多億所以我們都有損失所以包括委員講的我們說結婚也要鼓勵有人笑我說你這個老金好像來 那我再問一個話題有沒有聽過明月 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1048.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1066.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
有沒有聽過民怨 民怨幾時有八九問青天啊民怨何處來 借問審計官為什麼民怨跟審計有關 你知不知道我們以這次的風災好了啦我們現在呢往下看 你來看這處店 整個的處鴨拍一天 整個的香料料 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1070.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1097.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們站在政府的角度我們統帥補助十萬啊破一坑的我們補助一千現在我們補助百分之百 補助十萬你覺得合理嗎這個要看政府的財政能力啦但是 最多就十萬而已嘛 盡量因為這些啊 都受災戶 要盡量幫助他們那 我跟你講 現在地方遇到的情況行政官員說 你如果破一坑我給你省省的面積一千十萬塊我才補助一萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1098.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1119.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你要是破了很多坑 面積超過八成 九成你要全部種完 我給你補走十萬但是請教一下 我出現破一坑 我全部種完政府可不可以補走我十萬 有沒有不合理我的房子這麼老舊了 雖然破了一個洞 面積未達五成我全部把它換新 你政府是不是要補走我百分之百 補走我十萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1120.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1139.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這一個部分 自宅的這一個部分我們內政部的規定會受到你們審計人員在伺候審計的影響如果說今天內政部說關台你破一坑 還是全沒現料料你只要全沒反芯 你全沒反芯報告委員 我們的審計是根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1143.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1166.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
那個 內政部或者國土署提出來的計畫來審計但是他的計畫會受到你們審計的思維影響我來講啦 減少民怨喔 別用我們政府的心血來輸課我一間40年的老廚 就算我破一天沒超過三成我全部種完 我欠你五十四十萬我要求政府補助我 足夠補助 十萬有幾分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1167.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1194.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以說民怨怎麼來 審計人員的思維跟行政的思維要改變 我們來看一下現在的基層怎麼樣 多做多錯 寫報告跑法院其實我們來看一下 你們審計現在在追蹤啊說要出一條陷阱啊 那風太多了過呢 申請案走走風太已經過很久了 申請案走多了 這樣合理嗎這樣合理嗎 因為風太多了 很多人要申請嘛要越來越少 你覺得這樣哪一個合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1197.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1225.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個應該風...風太過...咳...咳...心情比較正常因為風太多了過 市議會都請不上工啊我就是想要還 我也找不上工所以聽到有工來做的時候 很多人就來請補助啊所以我要說的是說 審計的思維要改 往下看所以檢討監督級評論模式期望審計 要體察民意不要用政府的採購的思維來要求人民配合政府的思維來爭取政府的補助 所以最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1225.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1233.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
最後希望這三年的一個主張請我們沈記長回去好好研究再給本席一個回應好不好可以好謝謝 |