| IVOD_ID |
163783 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163783 |
| 日期 |
2025-09-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-4-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-09-19T15:12:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-09-19T15:33:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:21:11 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a1395843aa393b0adaab8992108cb222197a2d944b535faab16581c9668ff6a1ef9dbc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪孟楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:12:19 - 15:33:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-09-19T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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主席謝謝麻煩請陳審計長被提名人麻煩被提名人陳審議長沖委員好好審計長及被提名人你好六年前也是在這個場合受到蔡英文前總統的提名那請教再一次被提名會不會感覺到意外應該是有點意外有點意外怎麼說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
53.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
70.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
年紀已大但是國家需要你的時候還是要義不容辭是不是這個因為在審計部可以為國家為人民做一點事為國家為人民立法部門如此行政部門審計部門也應當如此所以我們看到過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
72.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
101.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
不管說我們審計部公布中央政府總預算的審核報告也揭露不少的預算缺失包括說兩兆多元的前瞻預算特別預算以及施政不力但還被監察院院長在會議之中質詢質問說不應該引起外界的解讀落差那審計長我們想請教再一次被告知說被提名為新任審計長的時候有沒有特別交代你什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
102.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
131.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
沒有所以你保證可以堅守審計權為數字說話當然把把關預算跟國人一起捍衛對好那國會會力挺審計權因為我們要追討的是浪花濫用的預算預算當用則用當審則審該用的我們國會不會惡意的來去做阻撓但是如果說不當用的或是浪花的也一定要追討回來您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
131.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
160.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
同意好 沈議長請教在過去審計部有發現超思雞蛋這個案件裡面有交易憑證不正確甚至有不法金額超過六千萬元經濟我們監察院跟審計部都不願意核銷但是北檢卻蜻蜓點水只有起訴三個人農業部不管是部長 市長 司長 科長 董事長全部都牽結不起訴你認為合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
162.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
180.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這是國家的體制因為我審計部發現的問題有違法施質依照審計法我送檢調如果有施質或者效能不彰我送監察院監察院檢調這一次有起訴我尊重司法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
182.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
204.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
市長我們可不可以請教一下當初超私雞蛋爭議的時候審計部的資料告訴我們說是損失至少有這個六千萬元不法金額而損失納稅人的錢是超過五億以上而這五億還不包括產業衝擊以及對人民的影響這審計部報告裡面清楚明白指出的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
206.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
218.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
對比這樣子不管是不法金額六千萬或者是我們損失五億以上就到最後只有下面的同仁來做負責上面決策單位沒有任何一個負責你覺得以實務經驗來講這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
220.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
240.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這一個因為是書法的偵查權我們尊重書法偵查權那損失的預算該誰負責損失我們移送給監察院監察院糾正了農業部並彈劾了他的主辦書的書長還有他的相關同仁沈市長有沒有看到最近的一個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
242.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
255.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個清潔隊台北市清潔隊員回收價值32塊的二手電鍋轉送給一個拾荒婦女就會依貪污治罪條例法定五年以上有期徒刑來去被起訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
256.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
274.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那結果這一個超失忌但全國那麼大關注審計報告裡面也清楚明白講了是不法金額有六千萬五億以上的一個損失結果到最後居然是以詐欺罪來做起訴癥結而不是用貪汙自罪條例會不會覺得雙重標準非常諷刺因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
275.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
293.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
他啟示的人員大概就是廠商還有細產會的人所以官員沒有任何的責任從上到下我相信連審計部門 法務部門所有大家都受到當時缺少雞蛋所苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
295.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
303.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
不客氣的講那是國難結果有人在這仇中發國難財結果決策單位沒有一個人要負責沒有一個領導階層或決策階層的人應該負責沈記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
308.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
332.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這一個因為是國家有國家的體制因為我們的審計法是發現不法或者發現效能不彰或者發現失足所以您覺得這一次這樣的起訴你可以接受嗎以我們這樣子審計資料提出來的你可以接受因為這個是國家的體制我要做尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
333.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
357.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你不能只是尊重啊沈議長因為我已經做好的第一關他一種名義就講了如果說有任何的預算被濫用了那我們是不是應該要窮盡一切辦法讓該負責任的應該負責因為是這樣因為我們有三這個部分我們發現了剛剛委員有講單計好像和企業規定不合我們已經刪減他兩億七千多萬這兩億七千多萬除了減掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
362.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
363.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我們國家不能讓外界認為只敢打 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
383.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
402.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
蒼蠅不敢打老虎只敢對清潔隊員32塊電鍋就用貪污治罪條例結果真真正正影響到全國人民的事情卻是高高舉起輕輕放下好你竟然有提到是說這有可能減掉的部分那另外我再請教就業安定基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
403.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
428.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
剪掉相對來講比較沒有直接的關係因為審計部分有特別點出來就業安定基金決算裡面用途關聯性不高應該予以收回有高達7224萬對吧對好那這個7224萬但是沒想到勞動部居然講是說他要用人民納稅前編列公務預算來回補這就業安定基金沈議長你可以同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
429.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
455.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個因為我們認為關聯性不高勞動部要逐項查明如果因為其中啊也有送檢調的我們先講就業安定基金能不能去開演唱會能不能去拍影片做大內宣能不能去裝潢辦公室這個他勞動部要逐項查明逐項查明以後啊我們他會報如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
456.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
479.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他是公務用途他會報行政院行政院會要不要給他編列預算這個由行政院決定大院會不會通過這個由大院決定那至於他要我們希望他基金和公務要把他劃分清楚這以免以後你們是把關預算執行的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
480.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
508.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那既然預算被這樣濫用了這樣的一個預算其實用途完全不符合我們也看到這樣的狀況了不管是開演唱會不管是辦公室裝修或者是影片一魚多吃一支影片變成五支然後分散來去做核銷那麼請教7224萬這個應該是跟這個執行者就是所謂的這些部長 司長來去做追查還是要由公務預算來買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
509.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
512.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個我們第一個要先追查他那些有沒有私用 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
513.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
537.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
就已經使用了嘛 所以你們點出來這不符合這個剪掉因為你是被提名人我們要知道你的態度跟專業能不能讓我們在現任6年把審計權交給你所以我們才想問的是說如果說遇到這樣的狀況到底是要行政部門去編列預算用人民納稅錢來回補還是應該由始作俑者來負起這個責任就這麼簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
540.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
554.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這一個是一個要因為這個是受及修法的問題所以我們移送檢調受及效能不彰的問題或者你濫用或者怎麼樣那我們已經移送監察案監察案 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
556.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
560.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以我們請勞動部查明他要審慎的來查明這個相關的現在就是官官相護嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
579.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
597.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
因為我們看到官官相護 我們看到這個總共人民才會沒有辦法接受所以才期待一個獨立廉政專業創新的沈記長能夠點出問題我們還是會看這個收回的情形所以一句話 你認為是公務預算補可以還是認為應該要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
602.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
628.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個要按根據用途事實查明的結果來作出處理你們的檢調報告都已經你們的審計報告都出來了他裝修辦公室可能是給公務用途公務用途他應該是用裝修漂漂亮亮的辦公室放盆栽或放景觀本來可能來 沈紀長您的辦公室裝修都多少錢我到我照任到現在要離開了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
630.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
646.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
都沒裝修非常好本席在這一件因為我是續任所以我也沒有用我們辦公室裝修費用但是他用了100多萬裝修一個辦公室合理嗎我們說他這是公務用途嗎我們給他輸出有點胡亂我們請有點而已嗎我們已經請送請監察院調查沈議長是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
659.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
687.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
專業獨立不要閃閃躲躲這是大家對你的期待不閃躲再來請教那個影片拍影片說金額宣傳金額用就案定基金來做宣傳推廣金額一直增加變成現在三年合計8億元都在做這個就業安定基金拿來拍影片這也是審計報告裡面點出來的問題我們就想問尤其這裡面最貓膩的事情他是使用開口合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
689.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
707.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
開口合約相對來講比較緊急的狀況比如說有可能預期的天災搶休嘛我就明白的請您告訴國人也宣示一下未來各部會機關能夠用基金預算來做開口合約做文宣媒體通路採購嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
709.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
725.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
勞動部已經承認以後不這樣做了不是勞動部啊 那會不會其他部會所以我現在要問的是審計部你們的專業立場是能不能允許行政部門用開口合約來做文宣媒體通路採購這個我們要看 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
727.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
730.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
還要看 看什麼要看這個整個採購性質是怎麼樣這一種的應該不必用開口碑應該用搶修搶險當時設計是說災難來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
741.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
766.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
趕快 就用開口合約趕快找人把他搶修搶寫是 這個大家都知道所以他們現在濫用開口合約這樣的一個制度所以 本席剛剛的問題再次請教我們發現了這個問題未來各部會各基金能不能用開口合約來做媒體文宣通路採購我們會注意這個問題什麼叫你們會注意 能不能啦這個因為是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
769.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
783.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
因為這個主管機關是這個採購的主管機關是工程會我在我審計部的立場主能說我會注意他是不是能這樣那你會注意他能不能這樣對不能嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
785.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
804.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
原則上因為這個我每個每個華都有主管機關我不能超越這個機關你們都不行我這要做客觀公正的提名人提名人預算都是人民的納稅錢你身為審計把關的單位一句能與不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
805.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
827.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我其實 你講出來不要以為這個是陷阱給你跳而是你講出來之後未來各行政機關就是一個宣示這不分藍綠 不分黨派 不分朝野應該是說過去有人有這樣濫用這個機構我們就要告訴他不能用了原則上沒有特別的理由我尊重委員的意見是嗎 不行嘛獨立 廉政 專業 創新對 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
830.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
857.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
不要逼本席再一次強調要變成是刻在這應該照理講刻在你心裡的這個都貼在我們所謂的牆壁上所以說不要讓本席失望你的詢答讓國人認為沒有辦法再交給你六年法定義務支出我們剛剛都一直強調是說多給的要收回對不對一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
858.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
882.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
應該要給的是不是應該要給法律上要給的就要給非常好法定義務支出一般性補助款算不算法定義務支出一般性補助款在他歸類的時候不管是4至391號4至520號解釋措施性的相關的一般性補助款其實就是法定義務支出是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
882.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
910.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主計總署也好 審計部也好都有這樣子在總預算裡面明白規定在總預算案的表件裡面它是列法定義務支出法定義務支出法定義務支出為依相關法令明文規定必須編列的經費即使行政部門無法因為財政困難而予以縮減或是刪除支出 是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
913.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
937.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
因為他還要思考啊 還要辯解啊 沈記長對啦 這個是因為大案已經追加預算把這個問題解決了這不是解不解決問題 我現在問你的是實質的狀況你是沈記長 你站在一個公正的第三方的角度來看本席現在是想請教 一般性補助款是法定義務支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
938.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
966.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那是歸類在法定一出剛剛委員也很認真的看到了大法官的事件如果確定法律一律一律作出我們應該是中央今天可以說夠高興我就把你給拿回來我今天不高興我就不要編中央今天可以扣除地方政府的一般性補助款四分之一然後把責任怪東怪西怪南怪北就是不檢討自己可以這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
968.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
988.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這個因為是在大院有給他一個636億的立法院可以刪除一般性補助款 立法院可以刪除法定義務支出嗎歷年來是沒有做過 對立法院沒有權利刪除法定義務支出憑什麼行政部門可以刪除法定義務支出之後然後推給立法院這是邏輯問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
992.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1015.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
審計長這個是應該照預算的編制或者預算的審議應該要照法定義務支出來支出要照法例的規定來執行法定規定來執行那就是意思的是法定義務支出不能去刪減嘛來那另外您剛提到依照法令規定來執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1017.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1031.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
軍人待遇條例警察人士條例也在立法院正式三讀通過並且總統已經公告行政院沒有附議那依法行政是不是應該編列預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1034.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1049.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這個法例通過了不要忘記喔 您剛剛上一秒才講說應該要依法例來執選現在法例怎麼規定但是行政院什麼時候編這個預算應該他有他的安排什麼叫行政院什麼時候編這個預算叫因為他預算的編註權法有相關的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1052.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1074.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
施行事宜公告了 總統已經公告了在立法院 在行政院 一算的編制權在立行政院 這個是憲法的規定他有權利在行政院 但是依法啊他的權利也是法律給他的權利啊所以他是不是應該要依法行政所以他要把所有的條件 相關的法律條件啊 走完 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1076.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1099.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
他要把相關條件走完 什麼意思就是現在在釋憲 要請釋憲結束之後他才要編釋憲 或者是說 要復議這一個不難是說 還沒有釋憲以前要尊重大院的決議還沒有釋憲以前要尊重立法院的三讀通過法令並且總統公告沒有復議的決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1101.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1129.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
好 那現在他沒有尊重 他沒有編列完了 他是編住的時機 這是違法編住的時機沒有 他現在行政部門就直接講了我們支持中華民國的國軍我們支持警察消防所有人員的辛苦所以我們立法院正式三讀通過了軍人待遇條例以及警察人士條例明年的中央政府總預算送進來一樣超過三兆元但是沒有把這個編列進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1131.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1139.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
行政部門講什麼 講說現在還要釋憲如果釋憲完之後才要再來補相關的預算那我才請教沈記長 預算要怎麼追加 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1141.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1166.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
因為預算還送來 大胭還沒有開始審議所以大胭審議的時候因為預算的審議前我們可不可以依法 論法 就法對 它應該按法的來編所以今天委員提出來這個問題所以大胭在審議預算的時候也可以提出有這樣的一個情形所以現在是行政部門沒有依法行政 是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1168.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1193.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這個因為剛剛委員有講到他們可能有一點還在整個行政部門還在整個盤算盤算還可以怎麼盤算這就是現在中華民國政府在民進黨政府主政之下最大的問題所有事情都不依法行政都在盤算都在算計都在想的是怎麼樣對自己的政治利益最好沒有依法行政就是現在最大的問題您可以同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1195.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1209.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這一個我去評論 不同意因為我是審計的 是事後審計的是 就是因為你是審計就是因為我剛剛一直強調你要獨立 廉政 專業 創新所以本席才會依法 論法 就法請教您 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1210.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1235.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因為你是被提名的所以本席尊重你本席才會希望看到未來你是不是能夠依法行政當人民給你權利要你做獨立廉政專業創新的時候你能不能不懼老虎講出真話而不是現在還要看風向台灣已經被政治耽誤太久了我們要的是依法行政所以現在沒有依法行政的行政部門是不是應該被譴責這整個流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1259.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1270.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好 好 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員的詢問 |