| IVOD_ID |
16372 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16372 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024121150 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法等案」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法等案」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-16T08:31:49+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-16T12:42:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:10:11 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc42a67f5a6c5408b730e87a8aaf0819ae78081dad70f87c4658b73a3647cf290f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法等案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:49 - 12:42:00 |
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2436.159 |
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今天舉行公務人員退休資遣撫卹法等案公聽會我們首先介紹出席的學者專家按照簽到順序介紹第一位是黃耀南理事 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2465.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2490.812 |
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何雲峰理事長李雅雯政策研究員郭彥成政策研究員陳孝聖理事長賴漢森先生林志傑教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2494.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2519.344 |
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陳采仁社長吳南彥理事長林秋竹副理事長李慧蘭理事長喬治華教授王傑理事長吳吉安會長 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2522.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2526.425 |
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我們先請議事人員宣讀公聽會討論提綱 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2548.181 |
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2565.952 |
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討論提綱一本次公務人員退休資遣撫卹改革中是否有不當之處應與改善或澄清二公務人員退休資遣撫卹法下稱本法第37條規定退休人員年金之所得替代率為最高70%最低45%且自109年1月1日起每年再減少1.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2573.317 |
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2599.114 |
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逐年連續減少10年直到所得替代率變為最高60%最低30%為近年來物價非常飆升對高齡者影響甚巨是否應與檢討以扶民需?3.依本法第67條規定公務人員退休後所領月退休金或以足所領之月扶續金或以屬年金給付金額 |
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2599.954 |
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2618.825 |
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與消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負50%﹐使應與調整﹐或至少每4年檢討﹐鑒於近年﹐物價指數上升﹐速度較以往快速﹐為即時反映物價變動﹐並達到照料退休公務人員之目的﹐是否有調整之正當性及必要性﹐ |
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2619.445 |
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2620.746 |
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好 謝謝那我們現在邀請各位發言之前有幾點要說明 |
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2650.738 |
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2669.987 |
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首先請學術專家先發言,發言順序依照簽到的先後順序如果有需要提前發言,再麻煩跟我這邊說一下,我們會視情況調整第二個本會委員按照登記先後順序發言如果是陸續到場的話,我們會安插發言,再請委員發言 |
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2672.388 |
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2678.292 |
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政府機關代表發言學者專家及委員的意見與會者請到發言台發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2692.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2699.868 |
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由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家的意見所以每位學者專家發言時間是10分鐘本院委員發言的時間是5分鐘首先我們請黃耀南理事發言 |
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2720.132 |
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2746.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
五位也好還有主席以及各位先進大家早我是全國教育產業總工會的理事我叫黃耀南目前也在新北市立新北高工任教擔任老師那我今天主要講的有底下這幾點第一個年金改革是對軍公教的羞辱政府是軍公教的雇主 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2748.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2766.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
民進黨政府在商界立法院透過多數的暴力強行的通過惡法現在在野黨針對不當的軍公教年金的改革提案修正是完全符合公平正義的再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2770.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2796.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
同時民進黨透過年金改革片面的撕毀跟軍公教的保險契約這個是我們在任職一開始的時候就跟政府簽訂的契約我們也是每個月從薪水裡面去扣除我們的保險金但是民進黨一個法案就透過多數暴力 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2797.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2825.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
就直接把法案修改了那我們現在看看齁如果是一般民間的保險民間的個人保險可以這樣子嗎保險公司可以片面毀約嗎如果保險公司片面毀約主管機關不會對他進行裁罰嗎對不對那為什麼民進黨政府可以直接這樣子做 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2826.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2853.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
完全違法那自己當政府自己帶頭違法這樣到底是對還錯那針對這個軍公教的年金改革的法案我們現在看到包括立法院這個會期就已經提出超過40個修法的提案那可以很清楚的顯示出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2854.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2878.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
立法委員是非常關注這個議題而且也覺得這個議題應該要做適當的修正所以在野黨提出這樣的修法提案是完全符合公平正義的那也因此可以顯現出來民進黨在2016年上台之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2879.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2896.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所推動的年金改革是有錯誤的而且在當時那樣的氛圍多少的抗爭各位回想一下多少的抗爭就在當時在街頭發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2898.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2924.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個就是一個不當的立法造成的結果再來第二個民進黨口口聲聲說公平正義但是呢卻是什麼傷害公民正義的始作俑者怎麼說前總統蔡英文一上台之後就在沒有法源的情況之下在總統府成立的國家年金改革委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2926.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2949.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然後此言說 針對各職系的年輕要進行改革各位 你現在看看 做了哪些改革 做了哪些改革就只有針對軍公教做年輕改革我們不了解 如果 民進黨政府 包括蔡英文包括賴清德總統 說要改革 那為什麼不其他職系 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2954.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2956.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以我們覺得這個實在太離譜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2980.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
3009.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
再來 第三點 就是從107年開始 7月1號軍公教徒基金因為年金改革 從退休人員的退休金總計已經剝削了2774億元那現在呢 政府只有撥補多少錢今年的100億元各位 這個是一個保險制度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
3010.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
3036.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那當如果基金真的有不足甚至可能有破產之餘那為什麼我們作為勞工的政府勞工的我繳了35%政府應該相對依法提撥65%那為什麼都從我們這些勞工的退休金撥削了超過95%來去填補這個漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
3040.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
3061.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那即使現在很多的團體包括我們全教產要求政府依法撥補而且要撥足但是到目前為止相關的部會在明年度的預算還是不足所以這個事實上是非常有問題的那我們也要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
3063.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
3087.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
政府應該逐額撥補在居公教的退伍經費部分第4個就像剛剛主席講的這幾年物價高漲通貨膨脹非常嚴重我們每一年都看到基本公司都有調漲甚至我是現在現職的教師 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
3090.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3114.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們也這幾年也調了兩次薪水退休人員也有調 調了一次結果呢 他的比例呢 比我們限職人員還要低那 這合理嗎所以 在這種種的這種情況之下我們覺得這是非常非常遏制的那同時 在講那撥補的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3116.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3129.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
剛講了政府今年撥補軍公教100億那相對於勞工呢勞工保險從109年到113年總共已經撥補了2670億元明年度還要再撥補1200億前勞動部長何佩珊也在立法院還大言不慚地講 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3145.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3169.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
撥補就是改革如果撥補就是改革可以適用在勞保那為什麼不能適用在軍公教這樣一個差別對待讓人家無言以對同時這裡面有一個很重要的就是軍公教還是政府的勞工各位理解嗎所以是讓人家無法理解另外再來就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3170.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3195.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第4點這幾年第5點就是我自己目前是現職的教師我一個月薪水被扣1500元左右的工保5500元的退伍基金加起來一個月要7000元我繳了35%政府要相對撥補65%所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3199.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3215.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我繳的一個月的這個兔基金加公保連政府的相對撥補2萬元一年就24萬元各位了解一下想想看如果你買了保險一年的保額是24萬你這個當你的保險到期的時候你可以領多少的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3223.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3249.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
是不是政府就這樣給你砍下去這樣到底合不合理所以我們覺得說主張就是第一個就是逐年每年1月1號再過十幾天這些退休人員包括我的前輩們他們就要扣1.5%大概一千元到四、四千元部分然後物價帳 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3251.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3260.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就要這些老人這些年長者去承受這樣的痛各位理解嗎這不是一兩千元的事情這是那種心情的那種折磨比什麼都痛苦所以我們建議就是這個37條38條39條應該要做修正停止逐年遞減那 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3275.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3300.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
再來最後一個就是我今天在會場看到了參與公聽會的人員我覺得很遺憾我們這些有一些代表是真的我們背後有一群不管是現職或是退休的軍公教人員的但是我看到有幾個代表我不曉得你代表什麼民進黨的側翼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3304.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3332.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
每次在相關的場合我就看到這幾個固定很熟悉的面孔在這個會場或是相關的場合出現然後來說要代表我們廣大的軍公教人員那甚至來批判我們那在國會殿堂做這樣的事情這就是民進黨嗎所以如果真的這樣的話我建議大家看清楚把眼睛張亮這就是惡劣的民進黨謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3335.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3342.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席、各位在座的長官跟先進們大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3361.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3383.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
首先要感謝司法法制委員會的邀請讓我有這個機會再度能夠為現職的公務同仁不便到場的同仁表達我們的心聲以及試著建議主管機關去參考我們是不是在目前的制度之下我們用一個公積的原則跟延伸性的福利化的角度以提供退休資深的前輩更穩固的退休照顧系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3386.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3413.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
不好意思因為陳如我上一次有來我是104年高考三級的公務人員但是在我做公務人員之前我有9年的保險業務資歷而且是教育訓練主管所以保費如果一年是24萬的話以現在的保險商品來講都沒有辦法達到我們公教人員能得到的給付效果這是目前商業市場的現況我想先補充做個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3414.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3441.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那另外我也要先謝謝在這幾天有收到許多跨世代的呼應有些是退休的前輩們他們給予制度改革的肯定而且也很體諒謝謝他們給我的打氣也有縣執同的支持我非常謝謝感謝各位當然不意外的我也收到了非常多的批評指教包含許多攻擊性的情緒言論 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3442.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3461.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我能夠理解前面的反應首先針對我上一次同樣在這個場合的發言我想我要講的是針對長期以來台灣的制度跟官場文化的批判絕對不是針對特定的前輩跟個人如果讓你們感到冒犯我在此致歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3463.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3476.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
很對不起那也特別謝謝我的親人跟長輩朋友們雖然他們心中不悅也沒有對我多做苛責我也感謝他們的海量跟他們的包容跟他們的氣度 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3477.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3500.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我想跟各位再強調本協會要強調的事情是誠如簡報所顯示的現行公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的各項作為它是一個跨越藍綠長期政策規劃的結果而現在過去年金改革的方案包含諸多我們想要討論的替代率調降的機制等等其實已經正在展現它的成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3501.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3510.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
他正在為遠遠原本奄奄一息的退撫基金取得生機他使這個退撫基金這個大水庫有機會能夠延續他的使用壽命 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3514.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3533.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
理想上我們的退撫基金當初的設計是要合乎共同提撥制的邏輯讓退休金回歸到退休人員的身上可是因為我們在這麼長的時間裡面受到了許多變相的影響例如少子女化、高齡化、鳳級屈高化的制度結構問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3534.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3549.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
長期不足而提撥的問題還有確定幾副製診複雜性的因素影響會導致它跟當初設計的理想方案有背離的現象也就是我們要再說一次它會導致說現職人員的提撥會跟已經退休人員的提撥會混雜在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3553.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3580.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
此時如果我們已經把精算後的調整機制中斷將造成不可預測和風險不但會讓現職人員在未來借退時的財務風險增加也不利於活化我們的退撫基金各位這是我在上週一公聽會同樣有幸來參與這個公聽會的晚上有跟一些退職同仁的退化各位看一下蜜蜂說他說根據國民黨立委們的修法版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3581.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3601.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
未來5年的退撫基金減少的金額節省的金額可能因此而短少2800億所以呢2051年會提前到2046年基金見底他說後面這個字不好意思國會殿堂我不方便講但他說我那年剛好65歲所以我沒得領蘋果說我是不是該知足因為我是2051年 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3610.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3624.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我想跟各位講這是一個已經不符合21世紀的政治經濟社會跟文化環境的制度它非常容易造成世代剝落感跟對立所以如果要提高退休給付不是不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3625.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3640.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
但是不要再去強調一個已經被精算好的退撫津津的使用不要再去改它了而且這更讓我們提醒一件事情各種想要調整它的方案如果是不利於退撫津津運作方案都是萬萬不可行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3641.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3659.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我們發現如果用整個學理的概念來看的話通常一個公職人員或者是一個政府當中的受僱者他的工作總回報可以分為總待遇跟延伸性回報這兩種而我們過去在設計所謂的報酬制度的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3661.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3686.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們都太過度的強調了左邊的總待遇而且總待遇的部分在退休給付的部分我們基本上都過度強調現金待遇而非現金給付非金錢給付的福利待遇其實是非常多的我想告訴各位報告的事情是各位可以發現如果以OECD國家也就是今天合乎我們的討論提綱的內容在說的內容的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3689.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3717.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
分為確定給付制 確定提撥制 名目賬戶制 跟點數制 諸多的方案而且在所謂的多層次年金 多助體系的退撫建構制度下它其實會混合運用 會多元運用因此我們要建議 可以依據國家的財政 預計經濟發展成果基於在職的公積原則 在退撫基金之外提供額外的金錢性給付 或是非金錢性給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3719.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3731.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這些部分 一部分可以平衡基金 強化財務性的補助另外 也把我們退休人員的延伸性福利有一個多元的方案來補強大家心中的來彌補大家心中的不滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3733.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3754.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
有關金錢給付的制度上一次其實想跟各位好好的介紹本會建議不妨就參照行政院人事行政總署於109年的出國報告當中針對所謂退瑞典政府做的平衡基金建立財務自主平衡機制讓他能夠達到收支平衡還有如果當今天有不平衡的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3755.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3782.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個基金也能有救助的方案它能夠避免基金進行破產它能夠有效的創造真正的平衡感我們該設計一個跨世代共享的平衡基金解決各位的擔憂也解決我們年輕世代的擔憂用一個撲破僵局具有發展性的制度彌補過去的創傷跟裂痕過去就讓它過去一起邁向未來才會共好 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3784.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3801.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
比方說如果當GDP連續局長成長3年的時候我只是舉例還是要請主管機關跟先進們一起思考那是不是就是一個基金開始設置或是各項普貼開始介入的一個很好的時機點呢目前的退撫法的67條的規定其實是可以調整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3803.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3825.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
非金錢性的補助方案非常繁多大家的需求不一樣但是公務人員協會法目前在裡面就已經有規定在他的第8條有規定其實可以針對協會會員的福利來去收集需求再向主管機關反映這樣應該可以有效的協助資源進行分配同時保持方案的彈性 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3826.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3847.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我要跟各位說的是公務員對國家的服務價值是發現機會傾聽多元聲音是實施公平可靠的政策是確保政策能夠有效被落實公務人員的協會也應該可以有體現服務價值的輔助性而且公務員絕對不該成為特定政黨的進卵 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3849.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3856.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
我覺得某些議題由特定政黨來提出或者是說某些團體是特定政黨的側議這都背離了公務員的價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3858.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3888.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
因此我們認為關於非金錢性的給付福利例如參考OECD國家的很多方案或許可以用點數字的精神提供公共服務里程讓已退休的公務前輩用你在職的公積年資換取里程以比較優惠的價格來提供你消費上的生活物品的消費換來補助以平衡通貨膨脹造成的挑戰此外高齡的人力資本的運用很多的退休前輩其實身體健康而且腦袋清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3888.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3904.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
還有非常多過去在政府服務裡面的歷練可以協助現職的同仁或許針對中生學習可以進行補貼或許可以讓現職前輩來輔助我們在職的同仁有利於政策的推展這個時候都是可以另外發放津貼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3906.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3923.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
本會最後要強調的事情我們應該不分朝野在重視公務職業尊嚴的前提下討論更加的法案關於公務人員的工作價值跟尊嚴執政黨現在要做的是打散友善的職場招募有志於公共服務的人才給予合理的待遇報酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3924.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3950.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
而退休前輩的職業尊嚴過去因為一直使用的制度缺陷而蒙上塵埃萬萬不可再討論相關的改革制度的事物陷入過去的困境當中而主管機關還是要不斷的多做討論溝通也需要額外提醒某些部分特別職的公務同仁一如採用輪班輪休勤務的同仁警察、消防、監所、交通 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3950.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3972.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
施法行政他們的工作待遇條件還有很大的進步空間如果我們欠缺共識性的決策機會會使它產生現在沒有變好以後會變差的想法也會導致制度的反覆而強化剝奪管最後我還是要跟資深的退休前輩還有各位委員呼籲國家要進步制度要進步絕對不走回頭路謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3979.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4006.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們先請楊瓊英委員發言接下來就麻煩李雅雯政策委員準備謝謝主席謝謝主席今天安排的這個公聽會公務人員退休資遣撫卹法這個公聽會本席認為非常的重要我們要聽聽多方的意見本席也提出本席的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4007.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4019.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
公務人員退休資遣撫卹法從2018年7月1日開始施行規定已經退休的公務員年金所得替代率由最高75%至最低45%但是從2020年每一年減少15%逐年連續10年 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4027.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4028.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4046.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4049.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
國際建立在公務人員退休撫卹制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4073.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4089.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
目的在維持退休公務人員晚年的基本生活善盡國家照顧老年生活的義務但是政府說國家財政困難困難到每一年的稅收 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4090.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4104.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
是超增千億起跳從113年全國賦稅收入甚至有可能創下歷史性的次高紀錄財政部上修今年的超高規模是4900億到5100億 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4108.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4108.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4125.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4129.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
主計總數編列高齡家庭消費者的物價指數我們發現物價指數成長對於高齡的影響是非常的嚴肅的一個議題2023年為2.8%我們高於全體的CPI的年增率是多少是2.5%所以目前第37條跟36條的規定逐年的來降低所得替代率與在職人員的薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4154.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4159.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
新縫調整要脫鉤實際上會讓退休族不堪負荷難以因應生活支出所以如果按照現行的法律我們不停止調降所得替代率政府應該要提出相對的因應討論方案以善盡國家照顧晚年生活的最基本義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4180.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4198.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
目前公務人員退休撫卹的制度設計以消費者物價指數年增率作為調整退撫待遇機制的參考目標但是本行在月初的時候也跟司法法制委員會來質詢討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4202.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4207.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
全序部提到,身為高齡退休族,在食物類及醫療實質的醫療費用相對比較高,加上相關價格也漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4223.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4241.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
意味著要忍受比一般家庭更高的通膨壓力所以建議可以來研擬改採用高齡家庭高齡家庭CPI為調整我們整個退府待遇機制的一個參考標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4242.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4248.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
以達到照料我們的退休的公務人員的目的我再一次的要強調因為以往跟現在物價指數的通膨似乎是比我們政府所預估的都為高這是第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4257.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4261.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
高齡的需求再次說明不管在食物類別或醫療所需的費用都比較高所以主計總署也提出了高齡的CPI已經比一般的CPI調漲還要高換句話說我們看到2比8是高齡的一般的只有2.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4282.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4283.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
李雅雯研究員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4318.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4345.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主席各位先進前輩們大家早我是全國教師會的政策研究員代表李亞文我也是高雄市鳳林國中現職的美術老師那非常高興有這個機會在這裡為大家報告我們接下來的一些現場人員的心聲那我們看一下107年改的一些回顧與檢討的部分在去年考試院及行政院按依法完成首次年改定期檢討並提出6項指標來建立年金制度的監控機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4345.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4369.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
但是大家會發現這6項指標以投讀缺二年改方案的檢討與反省所以在這一次的事件當中我們剛好有這機會召開公聽會來檢討我們的年改方案那我們要跟大家報告的是一年期年改的主要問題它有一個很嚴重問題就是選擇性的改革大家看一下這一張精美的圖文宣那是當時的那個年改辦公室所做的說這次年改是選擇性針對性的改革嗎它很明確的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4371.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4384.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
不是,因為不論公教、軍勞農及其他國民等身份的全民均納入年金改革然而五年過去,我們只看到軍公教被改革、被砍年金我們看一下兩個月前有言在耳的我們的前勞動部長他還提出說他不會砍年金,撥補就是改革他還告訴大家,告訴我們的勞工們不會砍年金,基金不會倒,年金一定領得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4396.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4396.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
年資補償金 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4415.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4433.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
當年是為了彌補橫跨新舊制前年資未滿15年的軍公教人員的損失其實它跟基金的財務沒有關係而且它已經入法了但是在107年改的時候卻順便被砍而且軍人繼續保留公教人員被刪除退休的公教人員有債制的公教人員沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4434.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4434.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
公務人員退休資遣撫卹 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4456.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4456.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
公務人員退休資遣撫卹法等案 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4479.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4489.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那時候的年改操作不當造成社會對立的狀況而且是職業別跟世代間的對立為什麼這麼說呢大家可以看一下官方公佈的文件裡頭他忽視了僱主責任延遲挑動世代與職業間的對立一樣是年改辦公室所寫的他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4495.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4502.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
年金制度沒有下一代養上一代的問題嗎我們看到很大剌剌的一句話對未來年輕人都是莫大的負擔他又說到政府資源分配合理嗎我們現在在講你的顧主責任你為什麼提到政府資源分配合理嗎他還讓大家說你看用於軍公教的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4511.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4518.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
15萬人占掉7.5%這樣子的資源會不會合理嗎值得大家思考我真的是傻眼如果我們老師膽敢在班上帶風向要其他班級同學公審某個個案同學說他占去太多的資源或者是告訴某個同學說就是因為某個個案學生的關係害你們現在要特別辛苦我們早就被啟動各種不適合教師調查然後被跟議員或者是記者媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4539.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4539.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
獲利者現在卻用一句信賴保護來捍衛自己的權益接著又說到 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4562.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4566.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
全會議者不輕易放棄既得利益我不曉得寫這一些的那位人員他有沒有想到他講的這句話出來之後呢並不是只有當初制定設計者的人會被認為是既得利益者而是全體軍公教人員都會被當成是一個既得利益者變成過街老鼠這個人不知道是不是也是這一些既得利益者當中的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4587.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4594.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
所以在這樣子的引導之下媒體與政治人物的議題操作軍公教人員當然會成為縱使之計再加上這些選擇性的改革嚴重的傷害了軍公教人員的生活以及他們的心這一些陪著政府從吃不飽也餓不死的時代一起打拚過來的前輩們怎麼能不感覺被信賴的國家背叛被應該要照顧他們的雇主的政府給背棄的呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4612.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4624.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
前人制定的制度歷年乃沒人落實的精算規劃難道要怪在這些當初接受的這個制度而進入公教體系的這些基層人員身上嗎107年改引發了非常嚴重的社會不安以及對立紛爭可以說是歷次年改最為嚴重的一次我們都非常希望未來不要再發生這樣子的狀況好 再來我們要檢討的部分還有兩個重點第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4635.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4644.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
停止替代率降低要有配套措施再來就是政府有責依經算10年撥補我們可以看到在年金制度監控機制的6項指標當中非常明顯的有兩個跟政府的僱主責任有關係一個就是退休人員條件所的節省退府經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4653.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4669.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
移駐退撫基金的情形另外一個就是所謂的編業預算撥補的情形這兩個完全就是在呈現政府的雇主責任那我們在停止替代率降低的配套桌時我們必須要強調當年我們是消改了公教人退休人員的給付 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4669.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4693.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
把節省的經費預注回基金來處理退撫基金的部分潛藏負債問題也就是說當時只有退休人員付出了但是政府卻沒有相對提撥進去因此這個預注財務缺口理應由政府雇主責任來填補而不應再由退撫基金承擔以預防公教退撫基金的用期能先在提前會有違基金世代的公平正義第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4693.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4706.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
政府有責依經算來做10年撥補為什麼呢依據我們全序部113年4月份的報告指出在維持退撫基金公教人員用期年度不變的前提下應該要分10年每年317億元撥補來退撫財務的新缺口但大家都看到這兩年來全部都沒有撥組如果沒有撥組的話我們就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4717.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4727.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
更早的破產所以在退撫基金的救缺口能否及時補足會影響到基金是否再次年改風險會嚴重影響現值公教人員的退休權益如果我們用20年撥補的數字來看的話會比分10年撥補還要多出710億 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4735.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4735.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4752.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4772.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
全教會呼籲國會朝野黨團監督政府採取10年的撥補方案我們可以看一下其實我們在很久以前我們的公務人員退休撫恤基金管理委員會就已經26年前就已經赴韓國跟日本來進行這些考察並且在89年的時候就已經在報告中提出5項建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4773.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4776.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
這五項建議都是我們歷年來的專家學者曾經提出過的各項建議包括積極從事國外投資及妥善辦理委託經營以提升基金經營效益事實調整基金提撥率以改善基金財務結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4790.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4807.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
第3個是加強福利措施的辦理以改造造福所有參加基金人員第4個是健全基金管理組織以加強經營管理效能第5個則是檢討改善現行退休經濟副制度以永續經營其實我們在好久好久以前就已經提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4808.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4808.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4828.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4834.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
斷食這些加強福利措施幫行政院刺激這幾年來低迷的國考人數來增加一些優秀的年輕人選擇公職的誘因再來就是我們也建議一下未來可以考慮要不要再請我們的管理委員會再次前往日韓考察一下這26年過後現在他們的年金制度執行的如何因為日韓兩國年改的比我們早 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4855.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4860.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
年金制度也更成熟而且他們的政經背景還有金融體系都與我們比較相近他是按知識可以工作所以我是比較建議說我們可以去看看人家已經年改過後他們經歷過的那一段走在我們的前面現在變成什麼樣了好 最後我是要告訴各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4873.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4898.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
世代公平正義與基金永續其實關鍵不在策略大家都已經提出非常精闢的一些建議了其實它的關鍵是在政府的態度公務人員沒有公會為他們撐腰挺身而出所以我對各位部長拜託你們站在公教體系的頂點你們影響到底下數十萬公教人員的人生他們是國家人民是各位的下屬員工這是你們的夥伴 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4899.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4899.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
郭艷成研究員 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4931.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4956.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
主席以及在座的各位先進以及各位官員以及委員們大家好我是全教總政策研究員郭彥成今天主要來談公教退伍的修法的部分主要是要表達一下我們公務人員對政府目前的一些態度以及做法上表現出我們的不滿以及憤怒 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4959.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4978.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
主要的談論內容主要是政府僱主的責任不容再規避再次強調政府是僱主你的責任不容再規避政府應該負起這個僱主的責任但是我們近年來看到政府的態度尤其我們前勞動部長他針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4982.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4994.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
老保部分撥補就是改革甚至說老保是類國民年金的一個是類國民年金政府本來就應該全部來負責那以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4995.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4996.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5014.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5035.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
人數來看,勞保應該每一年要撥3000億以上才合理甚至今年8月,行政運營發言人陳世凱表達政府要以合理的資源來做分配,讓所有職業族群的人都可以得到合理的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5037.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5064.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
要全力的維繫勞工、國民、農民以及軍公教的基金永續但是我們來看一下政府雇主的責任跟其他的保險的部分的一些差距的部分我們來看一下那勞保的部分屬於第一層的社會保險公保也是第一層那我們的公教退輔是第二層的職業年金我們現在看一下勞保受雇者提撥20%政府提撥10% |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5066.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5078.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
負責負擔負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5093.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5100.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
公保部分政府要負責65%我們負責35%那退伏也是那在這樣的一個基礎之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5101.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5125.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
政府在勞保部份其實它主要的負擔也就是它的責任是10%但是現在政府全包那我們的公保跟退府政府應該負65%的責任但是它把這兩個拿來做相同的一個類推來比較相同的一個處理這是錯誤的接下來我們就要看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5126.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5148.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
以106的年改透過削減公務退休人員的一個給付將這些錢全部預註在我們的特補基金來處理特補基金的潛藏缺口的問題但是我們注意到了政府並沒有提供相對的一個提撥也就是說這35%大多數都是由我們軍公教人員來做承擔的 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5151.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5171.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那也就是政府規避了僱主的責任也就是這接近65%的部分政府到現在沒有很積極的要來做負責也就是說我剛才講到的這部分目前來說都是由我們來承擔政府並沒有承擔了這個大部分的一個應有的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5173.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5186.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那我們的退撫法裡面第7條政府應該負最終的支付保證的責任以及第93條出任的公務人員這個制度建立之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5187.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5210.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們應該要先來進行這個資金缺口新制的部分的資金缺口的一個撥補分年的來做撥補再來還有潛藏的舊的債務的部分也應該是由政府來編列預算來做撥補那最重要的一部分就是健全基金的財務健全基金的財務 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5211.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5224.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
以退撫基金第8次的精算報告裡面若要我們的退撫不破產政府一年要撥521億公務人員285億教育人員236億總共521億也就是每一年只要撥521億我們的退撫就不會破產 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5237.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5259.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
但是最好的狀態政府如果很積極的話520億撥出來我們就不需要在這裡討論這些問題但是呢我們的退休法第九的三條是說先撥補新的缺口再撥補舊的缺口那我們就照法來走先撥補新再撥補舊的部分那我們可以看到111年的撥補法制化之後那113年政府進行撥補100億 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5267.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5281.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
公務人員50億教育人員50億然後呢114年經過全教總理事長絕職抗議之後呢那政府願意再提高一些114年每年撥比194億公務人員120億教育人員74億但是以這樣的一個20年的撥補的時間我們來看我們從113年開始撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5295.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5315.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
如果我們 比方說我們都拿都用194億20年撥補來看撥補到133年新的缺口 新制的缺口才撥補完那我們目前金融報告裡面所提到的公務人員140億140年基金用慶與教育人員137年基金用慶這樣的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5321.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5344.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們的舊缺口以目前的金額還有八九千億那八九千億你要用四年到七年的時間把這些缺口補完你一年要花多少錢一千五百億以上你現在撥個一百九十四億就哀叫了你到時候剩下四到七年的時間你有辦法再撥這一千五百億嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5345.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5372.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
現在政府的做法老闆的部分也是我不改革我把這個東西定時炸彈留在後面讓後面的人去收尾所以我們的撥補也是我先補個194億我等以後我等以後再由誰來執政才去收尾請問這是一個負責任的政府的態度嗎那政府這樣子不負責任的態度叫公務人員怎麼樣對你有信心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5373.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5386.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
真的是一點信心都沒有這就是為什麼現在在座有很多退休的前輩們甚至我們這種中生代、年輕世代不滿啊來到這裡抗議剛好而已啊真的剛好而已啦好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5392.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5401.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
公教退輔的撥補已經法制化了政府應該儘速完成撥補10年的317億的撥補是最適合的為什麼不做?為什麼要用20年?你20年撥補剩下那幾年的時間要撥八九千億你撥得出來嗎?這政府真的是亂七八糟阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5415.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5439.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
不是我們在講,這是亂七八糟請政府儘速完成撥補,重建公教人員對政府的信心至於退撫法第37條部分,全校總支持停止退休所得替代率的降低但是依照目前政府對撥補的態度這麼消極我們要改了之後這些錢最後誰來負責? |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5441.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5445.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5463.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5484.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
以政府目前一直以來的態度,這麼消極的態度把事情都丟給後面的人去處理以目前的做法是不合宜的所以全教總認為政府應該負起剛剛所說的僱主的責任不應該再由退府基金來做承擔才是保障全體公教人員不管是在職或退休的一個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5486.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5510.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那至於退休法第67條的部分那學長我認為呢退休所的調整我們目前都是以消費者物價指數來做一個參考那我們應該以17項的一個重要民生物價指數來做一個參考指數會比較接近目前的一個通膨這麼高漲的一個情況會比較能夠呢滿足我們退休人員的一個整體生活上的需求以上報告 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5512.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5540.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好 謝謝那下一位我們請陳孝聖理事長委員好那各位長官好各位前輩先進大家好我是全國金公教檢消權益保護協會理事長陳孝聖那今天代表70萬退休金公教站在這邊講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5542.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5555.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
一千人換不到一秒鐘那我現在這樣講今天有聽到何理事長前面何理事長講到他覺得改革應該繼續的部分那那個部分我不置可博我先講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5556.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5577.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
他沒有走過低薪的歲月當時一個勞工一個禮拜的薪水是一個公務員一個月的薪水他沒有走過這段時間他也不是現在需要靠著退休金然後來請看護的退休金公教人員他更不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5578.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5604.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
他需要拿著他的退休金還要來養護他的爸爸媽媽更老的八九十歲一百多歲的八九十歲的這些爸爸媽媽的這些他沒有面臨這樣的情形但是各位我們台灣現在是高齡化社會我們有沒有這樣的情形有那有些人他的生命的確生存前是受到剝奪的那不管他今天是一個兩個十個一千個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5605.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5616.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
生命任何一個法案都不應該去影響到一個生命的生存權所以我今天要特別要跟大家講因為我前面聽到這個何理事長講的那些我心裡面很難過那我現在這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5622.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5648.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
其實我們做人跟政府都一樣善良不需要理由那你要違俄的時候我們的藉口都講不完今天你要撥補勞工要不要理由撥補勞保年金要不要理由不用政府要撥補他就撥補了其實不需要理由但是呢你要砍軍公交退休金的時候世代正義出來了國家財政困難出來了對不對然後呢所有的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5649.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5675.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
都是為了要砍軍公教的退休金所以我要跟大家講我們善良的時候一個善政善良的時候不需要理由但是我們要去為惡的時候或者要有一個惡政的時候他可以講不盡的理由第二個當時改革105年的時候軍公教被罵成米蟲但是各位軍公教是米蟲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5676.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5687.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我們要這樣講陳其宜才是米蟲五萬個丑傭的位置他才是米蟲軍公教他不退休金不是不勞而獲 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5689.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5711.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
他是付出了一輩子的努力最後他在最初要去入職的時候跟政府簽訂的契約然後呢把他以後的退休生活也算計到了這個部分所以各位今天這份工作契約呢被背棄了他不是米蟲他們是用一輩子他們付出了生命的價值所換得的 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5717.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5741.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
好 第三個我要講的《傑山猶考》是一部日本電影當時有一個山村只要老人家他沒有辦法這個從事生產的時候年輕一代的人就把他背負到深山裡面把他丟棄讓他死亡那這部電影那時候看的時候我們是很震撼但是各位現在真實在台灣上演這個電影現在是真實在台灣上演 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5746.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5766.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
所以當時軍公教他在年輕的時候所做的事情為了所從事的工作是為了他現在他要養老對不對但是呢這個部分他們受到了剝奪他已經被政府遺棄了我們要特別要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5770.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5786.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
不管是勞工或者軍公教不管是勞保勞退公退他們在年輕的時候參加了這些制度都是為了政府設計這些都是為了讓政府安心養老但是軍公教現在有辦法安心養老嗎大家想一下再來要跟大家報告的是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5794.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5814.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
政府有沒有定義年金的法案在國外年金分成4層商業年金、職業年金、職業保險金另外還有一個社會福利年金但是台灣沒有一個年金基本法也沒有定義年金在台灣的年金只有國民年金、勞保年金還有老人年金 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5815.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5832.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那你今天要進行改革的是軍公教的退休金那你要改革之前你是不是要先訂一個年金基本法先定義出來你才有辦法去進行改革那你先拿著年金然後來改革退休金這個是軍公教不能理解的跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5839.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5861.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
黃耀南 還有我們全教總 郭委員他們前面都講到公保的部分每個月付多少那提撥的部分多少 對不對那各位 公保比照勞保可不可以我們跟勞保一樣 腳一樣多臉一樣多可不可以這有沒有基於職業平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5863.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5873.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
好 如果是可以的話 大家考慮一下現在軍公教的公保繳了多少 他現在領多少然後被罵成米蟲 這樣到底合不合理好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5885.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5909.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
代替正義跟財政困難還有反改革這都是不對的這個都是口號而已都是謊言老保年金他不足的時候為什麼不存在代替正義問題那所以今天為什麼獨獨對軍公教會說有代替正義的問題前面人在講說你繳的錢由我們繳的一部分那老保呢同樣一個政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5911.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5931.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那難道勞動部的這個長官他的部長他的能力比較好我們公務人員前西部的長官他就無能嗎他沒有辦法比照勞動部嗎還是說今天掌權的那個人最上面的那個人認為我就是要霸領軍公教這是我們不解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5938.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5952.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
好再來跟大家報告很多委員 立法委員還有我們都長官他都認為107年從78他們開始扣扣到現在扣的7.5%各位不對我跟各位講 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5954.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5975.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
改革的開始就先砍了16到20幾%然後平均大概18所以第一年假設他所得替代率是80幾%的人他馬上降了18%然後呢每一年再扣1.5%如果到明年114年還繼續砍月份繼續砍的話各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5980.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6004.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
就是已經達到了27%目前已經砍了25.5%整個改革它的弧度如果按照這個表來算大概是33%各位已經砍了八成了已經砍到達到八成了然後現在剩下兩成的部分你說會影響到整個退伏基金很大的影響大家聽懂我的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6006.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6031.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
他會對所有退休金公教很大的影響不是對退伍基金很大影響已經砍了深度已經砍了八成了只剩下後面的一點點沒有走然後我們現在只是卑微的告訴你說這些人的生存錢受到影響了但是呢你卻認為我們不能走回頭路各位人民已經在懸崖前面站著你告訴他 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6032.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6039.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
政府的完不能走回頭路你們要往前跳叫他跳選來到底這樣對不對我們來想一下再來我們要講這場所謂的年金改革他不是有衝擊金工價他的改革的惡果是全部的人全民共同承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6061.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6073.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
退伍基金現在軍工價被砍了2700億各位這2700億本來是國內的消費市場對不對現在呢你看到不管是服務業然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6076.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6098.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
醫療業：或者是觀光業：有很多非常受到重大的衝擊：這是因為二砍軍公教：第二個他消滅了中產階級：加大了貧富懸殊：第三個整個國家機器的運轉公共服務品質降低了：第四個造成了人才開始外流：第五個他忽略了老人的醫療需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6099.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6119.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 那這個我就先不講我先大家可以看資料我先講到我們當前的要求我們是希望說不要到明年現在法案通過113年的時候就先後面講的已經砍八成了嘛剩下那兩成不要再砍了先停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6120.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6120.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6140.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6159.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
第3個撥補前面已經講了那最後一個我要講的84年以前的年資有些老人家他已經受到影響了他已經八九十歲了84年以前退休的但是你現在砍他他跟退伍基金他沒有領半毛錢他是N級制但是你砍了他 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6160.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6160.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6185.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6186.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
翁小林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6198.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6223.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
主席﹚在座的委員﹚還有各位專家﹚學者﹚先進們先生女士們大家好我是翁小玲民進黨政府當初砍軍公教退休金的理由是政府財政負擔過大如果不改革軍公教的年金就會破產那麼因此要軍公教人員共體時間但是我們的政府是真的沒錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6225.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6234.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
蔡政府8年任期特別預算就花了2兆5500億錢基礎建設8400億海空戰力提升2400億新式戰機採購2500億新冠肺炎防疫8400億疫後強化韌性3800億等等加起來就花了2兆5500億而政府規劃增資撥補台電跟勞保基金的金額那麼更是高台電5000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6256.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6258.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
臺電5千億老保基金2670億稅收超徵3671億今年估計超過4千億外匯存底高達5千7百多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6271.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6288.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
根據最新的富士比統計,2024年最富有的國家排行,臺灣是高居全世界第14名,遠超過日本、韓國。這種富裕的程度,政府還好意思跟軍公教哭窮? |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6290.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6304.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
民進黨打壓軍公教至今已經掠奪了多少錢根據全序部資料107年到112年因為砍掉軍公教人員退休金而節省的經費要全數都挹注到退撫基金是2700多億但是這筆錢多嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6307.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6311.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
就純如我們剛所講的 看看民進黨政府這些年來撥補臺電5000億 撥補勞保基金2670億反觀只撥補了退休基金 當目前為止是294億 這對軍公教人員公平嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6325.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6341.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
民進黨對付軍公教是毫不客氣的為了政治鬥爭、階級鬥爭不惜破壞信賴保護原則犧牲公務員的權益結果造成人民不再相信政府優秀的人才不願再進入到公務的體系根據統計公務員辭職的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6346.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6362.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
從年改之後開始飆升從之前的七八百人提升到現在的兩千五百多人而高普考的報考人數呢也是呈現雪崩式的遞減公務人員自願退休的比例減少借齡退休的比例增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6363.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6390.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
不僅僅是如此這些年來我們看到物價是年年攀升但是薪水福利待遇卻變相的縮水只有微幅的調升但是完全不足以去回應物價的攀升再加上不斷調漲的退休金等等的因素造成臺灣的優秀青年根本不願意進入到公務體系而既有的人員也擔心退休生活不保 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6391.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6418.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以一直要拖拖到最後藉臨退休那最後就是形成了一個惡性的循環民進黨政府他其實開了政府可以隨時違反承諾變更政策的先例那麼公教人員不僅必須面對不友善不公平的工作環境而且還無法保障他們的退休生活進而降低為人民服務的熱忱最後受害的還是國家和全體公民 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6420.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6443.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
很多人以為說年改的影響只有軍公教但是事實上影響的是各行各業今天政府可以任意的砍軍公教退休金難道明天就不能砍勞工砍國民年金嗎一旦讓政府自意的違背承諾那麼未來哪個產業哪個人還敢相信政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6445.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6471.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
本次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的修法充其量只是止血而已那麼將原本不應該刪減的軍公教人員退休金不再繼續扣減而不是溯及既往的全部恢復只是停止遞減軍公教的退休所的替代率而已軍公教人員已經是夠委屈了民進黨政府和民進黨的立委們竟然還在杯葛此案你們還有良心嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6471.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6488.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
最後本席再次呼籲政府的誠信原則信賴保護一旦破壞各行各業都受害請大家不要心存僥倖今天有可能是軍公教明天就是你我隨時都有可能成為政府政策變更的受害者好謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們請林志傑教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6500.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6530.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
好 謝謝主席各位敬愛的前輩還有今天來與談的各位先進大家好剛剛翁小林委員有提到說這是民進黨政府做的年改我今天來的身份有兩個第一個是我是以法律老師的身份來做第二個我的發言是我是年改應該是受影響最大的一群人因為我的父親是退休公務員我的母親是退休老師我自己本身在大學教書我的妹妹也是大學教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6530.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6558.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我的先生也是大學教授所以各位可以想像年改對我的家庭可以造成多大的衝擊剛剛翁小林委員說年改是民進黨政府做的非常不公不義的事如果各位手邊有手機我請大家google兩個關鍵字第一個馬英九總統第二個年改你會發現年改其實是跨不同的政黨跨不同的執政者同時也是台灣必須要進行的一個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6559.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6583.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
大家Google這兩個關鍵字你可以看到年改革方案正式出爐是什麼時間大家看一下是在2013年當時公視還做了非常大的報導包括馬英九總統親上火線宣布改革必須有三大方向四大主軸來進行而且他自己第一個宣布卸任後放棄18%的優存 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6585.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6602.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
今天說民進黨政府不公不義我感到非常的震驚因為當時馬總統提出這件事情的時候我們全家非常的驚恐因為當時對年改是一個不了解的情形很擔心當時國民黨所提出的年改會造成我們全家經濟上的動亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6604.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6621.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
但是後來我們慢慢了解了以後雖然父母親一開始非常的抱怨但是到最後我們全部的人都支持年改因為這四大主軸其實不論是國民黨當初的年改或者是後來蔡英文總統所持續的都是我們國家所需要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6621.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6642.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
所以首先我想第一個我個人去年非常意外的被提名參選這個新竹的立法委員在此之前我沒有任何的政黨那主席過去我們也有一些法案的合作我想我的立場是非常公允的這四大主軸是什麼呢第一是必須要終結沒有隨同浮動利率調整的18% |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6644.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6668.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
請領退休金的年紀必須延後因為台灣的高齡化跟少子化所得替代率必須調整計算份額的方式必須調整年改有沒有需要去做檢討的地方以我自己一個受到年改這麼大影響的家庭來說我自己覺得第一個是當時在推動的時候不論是國民黨或者是執政黨是民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6669.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6698.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我覺得在論述年改上有傷到公教人員的心這是事實比如說我父親他非常沒有辦法接受當他為了這個國家奉獻了一輩子他為了政府努力從功可是到最後卻被認為是一個肥貓或者是既得利益者我覺得這對公教人員來講是非常不公平的公教人員願意共體時間但是公教人員不可以接受無名化所以如果說在國民黨跟民進黨政府一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6698.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6723.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
不間斷連續性的推動年改的過程我覺得這件事情是應該要重新被檢討必須要肯定公務員對於這個國家的付出我也非常同意剛剛前輩提到的我們都經歷過我父親的薪水在非常非常薄的那個時候我們也經歷過當時父親曾經一度考慮離開公務員到薪水可以更好的商業界裡面去發展的年代 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6724.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6730.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
所以如果用公務員就是既得利益者來去污名化公教人員我覺得這是非常不應該的 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6732.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6758.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
第二,如果說今天台灣的年改是一個政府跟我們的公務員之間的契約那麼這個契約是不是完全就不能調整呢?過去三年我曾經擔任金融消費平益中心的董事長處理過非常多金融的紛爭跟保險的爭議保險契約當然有可能變更跟調整比如說在疫情中因應重大的狀況我們可能對於履約有沒有辦法像過去一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6759.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6776.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
以同意承保的這個條件再來承保他就必須有重大情勢變更來調整因為病毒會變形當時我們可能認為他是一個非常嚴重的病毒必須要住院那只要今天一罹患就要罹陪但後來沒有辦法因為他已經變種了 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6777.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6802.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
變成是一個像感冒一樣的病毒如果是這樣子的話整個保險整個醫療系統都會垮掉因此沒有辦法再像當時承諾的那樣的狀況去續約所以今天即使是私人的契約在重大情勢變更或者是有沒有辦法抗拒的事項發生的時候這個著與調整依然是有必要的所以這個是回應前面的先進的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6805.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6827.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
國外的情況是如何呢?我們可以看一下在瑞典瑞典採用的是民意賬戶制它基本上沒有單就公務人員本身有一個退休金它是依據個人繳費比例加上基本保障來計算的至於新加坡從1977年新加坡政府就把公部門跟私部門的制度整合成中央的公積金來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6829.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6848.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
必須符合特定條件並按照這些賬戶的用途來領取至於美國﹐美國的社會保險制度是一套全國統一的公共年金體系採用限收限付的制度以現役工作者繳納的稅收支付來當作退休者的年金 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6849.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6860.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
澳洲則是在1992年實施了強制退休儲蓄的制度這樣的制度是確定以提撥制為核心要求僱主強制為員工來繳納退休金它涵蓋的群體包括公務員跟所有職業的群體 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6866.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6884.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以各位可以看到其實世界各國關於這個徒續的制度也是一直在變革包括法國也因應高齡化跟少子化必須被迫要去延長這個可以領取退休的這個時間對我來講其實我覺得今天來的意義是非常大 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6885.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6885.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6904.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6932.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
年改是為了一個國家財政永續發展不得不做的必要之痛我覺得他能夠講出這個充分體現出我中華民國公務員在行政中立跟愛國的一種情操我覺得非常的了不起那年改有沒有需要再做其他的調整呢我個人其實有提出兩點我剛剛也都有寫在我的FB粉絲專頁第一個是公務人員教職之間其實他的屬性跟種類也不相同 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6933.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6954.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我覺得對於警消來講的福利制度上面目前做的是不夠的尤其是警消它是高危險那當然你可能有類似情況的高危險的行業比如說警察、消防員還有海巡等等像這樣高風險的行業它在私人的保險或者是其他的制度上面要得到支持非常的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6955.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6978.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
你如果去買保險你就知道你身為警察你身為消防員很多保險是沒有辦法跟一般人相提並論他唯一能指望的只有國家所以國家必須承擔起照顧這些高危險行業的公務員的責任因為他在私部門沒有辦法獲得一樣的待遇那我覺得這一點我們是可以考慮的但是如果單獨把警消海巡 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6979.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6996.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
從提撥比例跟所得替代率裡面提出來我覺得很可能會造成年改制度的不公平那其他的這個行業可能也會說我也有危險的地方所以更好的方式恐怕不是去動年金改革而是應該要以其他的包括退伏 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6997.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6997.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7018.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7034.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以我其實覺得就這一點上我們可以來重新做審酌第二點我要講的就是台灣既然今天我們講的是少子化跟高齡化那我們擔心說未來的年輕人越來越少這個基金可能會面臨一個破產或者是入不敷出的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7035.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7055.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那麼應該怎麼辦呢?其實年長者是我們社會最寶貴的資產我們有非常多退休的長輩依然具有非常好的勞動力我們應該要鼓勵這些長輩再次投入就業的市場那這裡就會發生一個問題如果這個市場它的資金依然來自於部分是政府資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7055.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7073.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
目前是受到限制的大家去檢索應該都比我更了解目前他能領到的最高天花板就是那個最低薪資所以目前應該是兩萬多那我覺得這一點應該要予以放寬至少應該可以打到公務員的退休的最低所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7074.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7102.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
最低保障標準大概是3萬多元那我覺得如果是這樣子的話它可以去補足年改上面備受到損失的缺口二方面可以鼓勵我們退休的長輩重新的投入市場解決市場上面勞動力不足的問題第三經驗的寶貴傳承也可以讓我們的年輕公務員跟年輕的世代能夠去了解受益於我們長輩的付出那最後要講的就是台灣其實是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7103.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7105.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
再次謝謝主席以及謝謝漢森老師能夠讓我先講 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7133.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7134.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
謝謝林教授那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7159.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7173.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
最近因為勞動部這個霸凌事件很多人很同情公務員我今天一開始我要呼籲請不要霸凌退休的金公教 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7175.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7195.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
請不要霸凌退休的軍公教也不要只有跟退休的軍公教說財政不好所以很抱歉你們必須犧牲這是臨改的時候蔡英文總統講了好幾次因為國家的財政不好不得已 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7195.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7221.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
所以我們為了退休的金公教人員你們的付出我們跟你說聲抱歉今天我們的財政變好了包括我們退府基金的投資績效也變好了所以我們不用再跟我們的退休金公教說抱歉了也不要說他會要他們再繼續犧牲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7223.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7242.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
時代變化了當初為什麼年金改革在105年106年的時候我每一年都短促了一百多億兩百多億甚至有時候上千億可是我給大家看一下我們最新的狀況我統計了最近的財政大家看一下在民國95年到103年那十年的時候我們的財政確實是困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7253.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7281.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以剛剛有人講不管是馬英九總統不管蔡英文總統說必須跟我們的退休進攻家說聲抱歉可是我們最近的10年的財政大家知道嗎我們財政不只變好變得非常的好大家看一下從104年到112年你光是統計最近這5年就是年改從107年的7月份開始對不對年改開始的隔年 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7283.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7300.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
一百零八年到一百一十二年這五年有一年還是負兩百二十三億喔大家算一下這五年我們的財政超收了多少錢大家可以把五年的把它加起來一兆四千零三十一億把它平均分給五年一年是兩千八百零六億 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7311.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7332.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這光是一年喔比最近這五年我們退休金工價的犧牲五年撫卹了多少錢進退休的這個基金2744億期改今天要強調的第一個當初年金改革的國家財政困難的原因已經不在了而且我們財政變得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7335.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7354.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
光是每一年 最近每一年的平均都超收的稅收就足夠去補之前 你砍了他五年的所以還要繼續再砍嗎而且明年的稅收還增加更多上個月財政部已經講了我們明年的財政會多出4千億所以第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7358.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7381.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
國家財政沒有已經當初要犧牲我們的退休金額已經不見了這是第一個第二個我們再看一下還有一個很大的改變以前為什麼要改革因為我們的退撫基金那個小水庫一直在講說錢不夠了錢不夠有很多原因現在有一個非常非常大的改變以前退撫基金的操作不當 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7383.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7404.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
所以他進來的錢非常的少大家看一下最近從108年年金改革以後我們退伏基金操作變好了因為公開透明了不要一直再去覆盤了你看108年收益有10.62109年8.46你看除了有一年付的全部都超過兩位數所以你只要好好維持你的操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7411.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7426.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
怎麼會沒有錢呢 大家看一下下一張當初改革的原因是什麼因為之前的前20年我們的金公教把錢給了這個退伍基金之後操作亂七八糟前20年平均值有多少2.79欸當然那時候要做B座年金的改革啊可是大家對照一下最近這5年差了幾倍至少差了3倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7439.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7458.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
所以不只是我們的國庫現在開始有錢了退撫基金因為績效的增加退撫基金是有錢的所以包括剛剛年輕的朋友 終生帶來金鍋教代表不要擔心現在基金是有錢的只要管理者不要再亂搞這個地方是有錢的比較以前到現在另外大家也不要擔心這個基金會沒錢啊大家對照一下勞保 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7466.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7494.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
勞退基金最近這幾年我幫大家算了一下109年到114年撥補多少錢3870億所以勞動部的前部長何必這樣說啊撥補就是改革啊我們不反對撥補給勞工可是最近這幾年為什麼經過這樣的公務員的退休基金增加那麼少所以我上次執行的時候我特別拜託我們的前市部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7496.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7509.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
要去力爭啊人家勞動部照顧勞工的時候是這樣子全席部跟考試院有責任都去掙錢一些錢進來一方面投資績效已經增加了一方面透過因為政府有錢政府可以多撥補透普的這個基金所以金公教還有縣子的都不用擔心領不到錢好我們來看一下要解決現在這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7527.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7533.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
他沒有什麼世代對立的問題啊因為你照顧到年長者退休的你照顧到現代的啊因為整個國家變得有錢了你甚至去看一個台電最近這3年已經要求撥補3000億出去了最近還有2000億啊一堆的弊案 剛剛有人在提陳其義 台電綠能的光是一個光電弊案五六百億就收不上去啊五六百億的那種虧空跑不掉腐爛的支出有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7556.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7560.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
政府的責任不是應該讓弊案不要再發生不要再亂編錢嗎我前幾天上個禮拜五在議員會非常堅持砍了人民的預算250億那250億就可以省下來啊而且維護到我們的健康啊從國民黨到民進黨政府不是講嗎少燒煤啊火力發電裡面的煤要少一點啊你把250億砍掉拿來 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7587.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7599.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
幫勞工幫勞工退休不是很好嗎而且讓我們監開維持啊所以不要擔心沒有錢錢是有的好回到剛剛那張我給大家看一下最重要的我剛剛講我現在講一個現在要解決問題現在解決問題就回到主管機關最專業的一個精算來解決問題那就回到考試院當初在聯改的時候的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7614.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7644.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
我請大家一定要特別注意這件事情當初在年金改革的時候大部分人是沒有反對的除了可憐的親公叫退休人員之外可是我剛剛跟大家講歷史背景跟整個財收狀況已經不一樣了國家變有錢了我們的退撫基金變有錢了績效增加了撥補也可以增加了更重要我們用專業來解決問題什麼叫專業當初提出來最專業的主管機關版本是誰提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7645.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7661.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
考試院啊前系部現在部長在這邊當時考試院版本是怎麼樣從80%開始往下一年1%對不對可是當初當年在張連那個立法院表決的時候過的不是立法院專業版本欸他在民進黨多數的狀況之下段怡康高喊之下民進黨那時候有68席 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7670.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7694.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
他大砍他同樣你如果服務滿35年大家看一下你如果服務滿35年就一個軍工教你第一年你80%對不對分10年一年降1%降到70就停了可是後來民進黨主導之下過的不是主管機關考試的版本啊政治的力量進來了他出現了什麼他變成一開始就砍了5%從75開始每一年還降了1.5好那我現在請大家算一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7700.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7702.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
請大家算一下 經過這五年經過這五年 一開始降了5%五年一年1.5 已經降了多少12.5% 對不對我們的金工教經過這五年到現在他已經被砍了12.5%了他是不是遠遠已經超過本來考試院的版本了是不是所以第一個回歸專業的精算 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7729.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7744.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
回到原來考試院的版本你現在砍的幅度已經超過原來考試院提的10年的標準了甚至多出了0.25%了第二個你現在國家有錢了所以我會議回到這個版本來 我們再看一下你目前5年一共砍了2774億可是很清楚現在國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7757.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7775.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
波普可以解決這個問題你績效改革也可以解決這個問題我最後講一下台灣民眾黨跟柯文哲在競選期間的我們的主張這也是最近我們在審查這個案子除了國民黨提案之外我們的主張柯文哲很清楚的講過 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7777.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7794.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
這個違背 當初這個年輕改革制裁問題違背了信賴保護原則 破壞了法不受既往的法治國的這個基礎私心靈敏 所以現在最重要的是什麼我們現在怎麼去幫助這些退休的金工教他特別提到一個點 就我剛剛講的 多普的問題他說我們以前管理不當他說管理不當 他去看過很多會計師啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7798.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7818.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
一說我們政府拿那個退伍基金去投資阿他說你如果蒙著眼睛去買那個前50黨CEO的你這30年來應該至少成長6倍阿你怎麼會沒錢呢結果你等於是好像有點像你拿我錢去賭博輸了還在砍我的這個預算我用最後這句話來政府講話都不算話以後誰要聽你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7819.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7846.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
明改改到現在他提出一個很重要的解決方案他一個原則舊的要盡量維持諾言新的要如何來處理該撥補就撥補所以柯文哲在競選期間中大選期間提出這個論點我們大部分民眾黨我們會依行這個方向去走所以我剛剛提到的既然已經改過了現在已經快到12月底了本席強烈的主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7847.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7873.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
停止年金逐年調價從明年1月開始第一個他基金已經達標了他砍的幅數已經高過之前考試院提出的版本10年10%了已經達標了已經超過了第二個我們國家變有錢了我們的基金現在投資績效是好的請停止對金公教的繼續再下去改革下去就變成霸凌了 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7874.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7885.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
不要霸凌退休的輕公教停止竹聯在記憶條件謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請那個麻煩羅志強委員代理主席好 我們請吳宗憲委員發言好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7903.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7904.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7918.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7918.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
張啟凱委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7938.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7954.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
當年你回過頭去看大法官的說法為什麼大法官認為說這個沒有信賴保護的問題大法官是說當然要信賴保護啊但是因為年改他因為公益的需求所以這個改革不會有信賴保護的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7956.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7958.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7977.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7994.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
他為公益要犧牲其實這個是說不過去的齁我先跟大家講兩個小故事第一個是我還擔任立法委員之前有一次我去花蓮玩坐計程車我去花蓮地院找一個同學然後計程車司機就跟我狂罵他也不知道我是誰他就狂罵說 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7996.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8019.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
執政黨的兩岸政策害入客沒有來他們沒有生意然後本來還有一些退休的公務員會去花東去泡泡溫泉去玩就年改之後連這個都沒有了那其實也就是說有非常多的政客總是把問題限縮在一個小小的點上面他告訴你說這個基金將幾乎會破產但是他沒有告訴你其實就像 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8019.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8037.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
前勞動部長說的撥補也是一種改革啊對不對那為什麼你不去對於公務員的這個部分去做有效的撥補你反而把多收到的稅就還給人民這是為了什麼其實就是為了你的選舉而已他不是為了一個公平正義的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8038.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8063.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
那很多人都在罵先然後最後他做什麼就是搞階級鬥爭嘛就讓勞工跟公務員鬥成一團啊然後告訴你們說公務員或退休公務員都是米蟲就我覺得這個政府是不應該而且這一個野蠻尚未進化的政府那我再跟各位報告另外一件事情我自己年輕的時候那個時候我爸爸他是律師事務所老闆 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8064.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8090.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
他叫我回家做那我是跟他抗拒嘛那月薪他從30萬跟我談到50萬我還是不理他那我去選擇一個司法官當檢察官我當了20年的檢察官一個月就是零十幾萬那為什麼這麼大的數字差距我又願意選擇在公部門好好服務當然一部分是理想第二個部分我考量的是司法官有一個穩定的退休我希望我在退休之後不要再為三餐煩惱那這也是很多公務員當初 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8092.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8118.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
放棄外面高薪去走向公務部門的一個主要原因尤其我們那個時代律師一年入許很少他不像現在入許率比較高所以那個時候的律師本來你在外面就業的薪水就遠高於你在法院或地檢署的薪水所以等到最後大家要退休的時候政府告訴你一句不好意思當初說的都不算其實這個怎麼會沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8119.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8140.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
沒有侵害到你的信賴保護呢所以這個是我一個念法律的人我還是不懂為什麼可以用說這個沒有侵害到信賴保護如果今天這個是發生在私部門我跟你講可能鬧到政府都要出來去處罰那個老闆你說話不算話那你沒有好好保障自己的那個勞工那像我剛剛提到那個計程車跟我講那件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8141.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8166.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
最蠢的政府他狂砍了退休金之後他讓很多公務員退休公務員他不敢正常的消費結果不敢正常消費受害的又是誰小店家他原本他正常的生活模式他必須要因應年改而去做調整的時候他錢他都不敢花那到最後是發生什麼狀況小店家沒有收入稅金繳不出來國家也受害所以這不是蠢到 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8167.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8167.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
公職委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8179.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8208.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
怎麼樣要你吞下來就是要公務員：要公務員或退休公務員吞消我覺得這都是不對這也就是為什麼我到立法院之後我拼命的幫警消、公務員還有將來老師我一步一步希望把他調回來調不回來或你要還有其他考量的話至少我們要先停著不讓他再往下繼續看這個是為整個國家整體在著想然後還有一個就是大家都常常講一句嘛他說21世紀最貴的是什麼其實最貴的是人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8209.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8226.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
但是你香蕉就只請得起猴子啊那這個時候你需不需要我們公部門請到的人除了對國家滿腔熱血之外你也要給他一個合理的報酬他才願意來嘛否則一流的人才就是他不願意到公部門來服務啊所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8227.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8241.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我們從一個比例上面來看這幾年報考從11年前到現在高普考然後大學應屆畢業生狂減了86%這是一個多可怕的數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8242.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8261.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以當你國家需要一流的人才來協助我們管理這個國家的時候就你政府的想法是什麼反正一個蘿蔔一個坑有一個缺有一個人來考就好了他也不管你這是幹嘛這個在實質在掏空這個國家所以搞到最後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8263.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8288.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
有人為了遂行自己選舉的利益他最希望造成階級的對立只有階級的對立他才會得到最大的選舉利益但是對這個國家怎麼辦你去看日本你去看韓國看新加坡他們的公務員採基因主義他們希望最一流的人才來治理這個國家那好的政策才會有好的國家方向但是現在政府不是這樣做這完全是違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8288.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8313.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
人性的一個做法你用私部門來看好了私部門他要請一流的人才他必須寄予高薪去聘請新的最好的人才來但我們這裡不是除了公務員的薪水本來就偏低之外他還讓現在新進來的公務員看到你看退休的那些老人家反正我就是說話不算話那你怎麼有辦法讓新進的人相信有一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8313.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8332.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
他還能夠收到生活上的保障所以現在政府拿在職的公務員去鬥退休的公務員但是這些在職的公務員我跟大家報告也不是笨蛋他會去想說現在你搞一次年改降到現在剩下67.5%那會不會等我退休的那一天剩下50% |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8334.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8361.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
這不是不會存在啊因為我們現在就是有政府就是可以就是亂砍砍砍到現在67.5當年本來考試院的版本地板值是70欸但是他現在要給你砍到60而且是立法院裡面的立法委員的希望把他砍到60而且是現在的執政黨希望砍到60這樣對嗎連考試院的版本都不敢砍到這樣就是政客們在那邊砍其實這是對不起對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8362.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8376.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
退休的公務員也對不起現在的新公務員更對不起這個國家因為他完全不想要一流的人才來治理這個國家他希望很多人一流人才被民間企業挖走那這樣下去之後國家該怎麼辦其實這是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8380.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8394.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
一直以來我擔心的很多狀況那我剛有提到國家財政不佳的時候所有的人都能共提時間但是當今天國家財政好的時候那是不是應該要有所改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8395.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8421.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
甚至你要去思考最近這幾年通膨這麼嚴重的狀況下為什麼我們還不好好的去想該怎麼做而是就是一句話不能撥補然後講一堆有的沒有的然後搞了一堆譬如說能源政策錯誤之下幾千億就這樣賠光光然後將來還要面對很多高額的碳稅以及高失業率然後企業因為生產成本增加而必須外移政府沒有再給你管這個東西所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8422.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8449.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我實在不認為說把一個年改這個議題把它限縮到只是這個基金能不能夠永續就好像當做一切拿這個來說罪你應該是通盤的去思考國家的財政以及通膨的問題那為什麼我一直強調國家財政要思考因為請各位去看一下大法官的解釋大法官對於年改為什麼沒有損害到信賴保護他就認為說因為是公益需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8450.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8470.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
公益需求存在於國家財政有困難的時候你可以叫全國人民大家一起擔但是當國家財政每年超出那麼多今年甚至要到4千億他就還是跟你講不能那這時候我想大家都不能接受最後我還是希望一個健全的制度一個可受信賴的政府這個是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8471.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8485.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
一個健全的制度以及一個可受信賴的政府才是一流人才希望留在公務部門或者是加入公務部門的最大動力我希望這個國家還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8486.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8509.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
不是所謂的基金要永續而是國家要永續只有國家有一流人才國家才能壯大壯大的國家才能保護我們不要再給我騙什麼抗中保來講那些五四三然後來總是用那個東西來來掩飾自己錯誤的政策還有為了選舉的利益然後總是拿這個東西來騙人好這邊謝謝各位謝謝各位專家今天來給我們的指導 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8520.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8521.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
很抱歉因為喉嚨有點沙啞所以我講話可能會很難聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8553.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8576.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
我只準備了我自己的資料我拿出了我的糧本我的存摺那我這個存摺裡面現在已經改革了第6年對不對那我的年金今年每個月領多少一個月6萬2千塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8578.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8579.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
民國66年20歲畢業 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8599.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8618.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
1996年滿30年了而且國家告訴我我可以領一輩子啊然後我算了一下我可以這麼樣的退休於是我就退休了然後退休的時候呢我從50歲退休到60歲我總共領了1000萬多一點的退休金那為什麼我要選擇退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8627.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8628.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8651.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8651.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8679.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8679.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
退休資遣撫卹法 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8703.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8703.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8727.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8752.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那我是好手好腳我經驗也很豐富我可以繼續的服務可是這麼好的一個機會這麼好的一個那個退休制度我為什麼不退休呢所以當你問我說我這樣退休好不好我當然說好你知道再給我多少錢我當然說好但是這個國家我們如果考慮到的話這個國家這樣的制度該不該改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8754.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8778.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
當然要嘛 對不對所以我從30年前我就一直認為這個國家需要改革當然啦 這個改革的過程一定都是在拉扯一群人他認為要反改革一定有100個200個理由那我認為改革很重要這是我要講的第一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8779.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8800.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那麼我的退休金你看我66年到96年這30年之間我沒有繳過任何稅金喔我是一個小學老師退休我沒有繳過任何稅金的情況之下我在做服務這是一點第二點我民國84年以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8804.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8830.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我的退休的退伍提撥是多少錢你知道嗎0沒有任何提撥那85年以後因為有修法所以我開始有提撥提撥一點點沒有很多然後我96年以後我開始領這些年輕那你的錢是誰的大家想也知道嘛就是你們在座的這些年輕人的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8833.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8833.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
民國113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8855.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8881.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我們的稅收他提供了提撥了100億到我們公跟教的退撫基金那114年了114年馬上就到了他提撥多少呢提撥194億如果沒有這麼提撥的話那年輕人很快你們繳的錢很快就被我們領光了 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8884.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8905.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
國家會不會倒大家心知肚明這樣的情況之下我們經過了這樣改革經過了這樣提撥我們現在我們的年金只能夠延遲一個世代還不表示以後不會倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8906.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8907.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8938.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8945.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我們大概還有119年、118年、2029年我們還有每一年要稍微降1.5%那我降到最後會多少呢?我還有5萬多塊一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8957.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8977.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
五萬多塊一個月,那我沒有辦法精算那個精確的數字原因是這樣,是因為我們物價上漲5%或者是每四年檢討一次我們的退休金還會再增加一些所以我估算我五年以後我應該還有五萬五千塊錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8979.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8979.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8999.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9026.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那麼剛剛有很多人講說我們那個時代我們那個時代我要養我爸爸養我媽媽我要養我爸爸養我媽媽那你想一下在蔣經國時代就已經軍公教人員就已經有退休金月退休貨還有18%可是那個時候我的爸爸我的媽媽 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9027.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9028.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9058.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9082.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那這樣的情況之下不就是我們本來就應該全民都有好處的一個方向嗎這樣的改革為什麼不好呢當然是好的嘛 對不對那我呢被改了一些被改了一些改到後來我可能領到五萬五千塊那你叫我說我不支持嗎我當然認為這樣子非常合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9083.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9083.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9098.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9126.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
而且改革有很多人那個陳水扁當時降我18%的時候如果沒有降的話我的錢比我上幾屆的那個退休的人一年的退休金就領100多萬那退休金後來改了以後我是領到87萬多將近88萬然後馬英九他也在改了最後我是領到 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9129.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9147.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
蔡英文是全面性的在檢討 全面性的檢討才是一個好的那你不能說我們台灣很會賺錢 現在很會賺錢的政府 我們繼續支持他 沒有問題但是不是現在很會賺錢 表示以後都很會賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9149.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9150.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
陳財人社長發言休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9179.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9200.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
主席 各位長輩大家好 我是台灣客社存材人 客家人給我一分鐘講客家話 一百年前蔣渭水說台灣是台灣人的台灣 所以我今天我願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9201.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9224.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
用很客觀的來探討年金改革的問題我不講個人政黨 不講個人的利益剛才林老師有提 其實我也想講的我最早加入年金改革是馬英九的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9225.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9225.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
財政預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9254.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9273.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
我的感覺應該是現職的這個工作人員他們所得到的補助或是得到的照顧應該要多那退休以後的這個是優先順利應該是我認為是應該排在第二順位 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9275.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9304.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這個原因是怎麼樣呢這國家的未來我經常聽到朋友講你這個未來在哪裡國家的未來是看現在的軍公教的現職或是工人在社會上工作的所以這個是我個人的看法 優先順序那麼這個就講到一個我們新埔以前有一個徐英生他是內政部的次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9305.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9314.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
他經常跟我提他說內政部是台灣最大的部會我聽不懂但是我問他為什麼他警察很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9316.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9337.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
他是說警察很多但是我從事教育的我說那不對啊那我是教育失敗啊你警察用非常多的人所以這個我教育非常失敗我就製造很多的問題讓你來解決嘛這個許醫生給我一個最大的喚醒我啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9340.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9361.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
臺灣的治安有問題臺灣的治安有問題他也講你治安是你學校的問題所以我現在要強調的就是我們現在國家財政一定要優先順利讓在職的工作人員來改善他的環境我舉個例 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9364.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9380.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
先進國家的軍人他一定是用最好的設備最好的一個用品比方說他們穿的衣服是用那個蘇格蘭最好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9380.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9381.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
臺灣的黑人現在非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9406.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9432.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
大家就不要自我安慰啦包括立法院這個很多都是面臨在前線跟黑衣人有互動的這個就請大家一起來解決黑衣人的問題來讓教育的問題一起來把這個堵住黑衣人的那個產生啦這個比你用其他更多的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9434.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9454.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
更有效力來讓臺灣會更幸福第三個美國的川普這次選上總統最熱門的選選我想大家會否定一定是那個馬斯克 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9455.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9464.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
馬斯克的他的工作他為什麼會被全世界公認或是全美國公認最有既往的一個人他就是政府的 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9469.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9469.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9486.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9502.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
財政的問題所以請大家不要在這裡說那個誰說誰有理誰有理大家用這樣的很客觀的來批判啦來討論這個台灣不然的話我這個達不到效果這個馬斯克他在美國我不曉得這個是新的部門還是叫做績效部 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9511.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9529.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
就是技術效率的部分 這個裡面最重要就是美國的財政的問題 沒錯 大家可以Google去查美國他在解決未來的問題 目前的問題我們台灣要學學人家解決目前的問題和未來的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9533.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9558.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
第四個就是說設備的環境我們應該用最好的設備來讓現在台灣在限職的工作人員有一個未來可以超越可以趕上別人的一個我就想我們現在台灣的這個半導體 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9561.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9586.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
副國巡山張忠謀當時假如不是去美國他今天不會創造好幾兆的經濟產值這個是人家的教育所以我們台灣這個是值得學習的我們要優先要投資的應該是這個方面他可以賺好幾兆為台灣讓大家來分享這個才是有優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9587.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9591.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
秩序的這個非常重要的一個考量這個非常這個不是什麼大的道理排擠效果啊排擠效率啊假如說你現在台灣的稅收這個餅就是那麼大假如說你把這個餅分到某一個地方那個就沒有而分到的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9617.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9634.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
對台灣你要考慮到分到這個多餅的人對台灣他的產值他最後經過的產值是在哪裡這個一定要注意所以我一再的呼籲請大家憑良心講話真的是憑良心講話要為台灣來考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9646.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9669.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這個退休制度 退休的制度不是只有台灣有 全世界都有甚至他們都比我們都還早 他們做的比我們久 他也是一直在改我想請大家可以所得替代力的問題 我們可以拿來討論 沒有問題這個世界各國的所得替代力 絕對可以來討論 另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9671.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9689.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
臺灣的要退休的人或是要生活的人,他們的貧富不均也好,或者他所要生活的,那軍公教,我不曉得 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9691.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9710.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
是他的地板比較低還是他的天花板比較高大家可以去找找看可以去比比看在現在的軍公教裡面台灣的軍公教裡面他的替代力守則如果是低於勞工如果是低於現在的工人 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9712.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9730.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
這個20K 30K的這個待遇那你 我想請大家就稍微來心裡就自我安慰一下就不要太去給政府不同的這個一個建議啦謝謝這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9745.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9767.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
歐洲四國有一個很好的一個給世界的一個警訊就是歐洲有幾個國家就是政府的財政出問題所以後來他就一直掉下去那麼另外一個現在的財政稅收是非常好大家不要忘記想當年日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9768.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9795.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
泡沫經濟到現在快30年還在掙扎所以那個稅收啊你台灣人不是世界最偉大的一個不是你台灣人可以控制的不是你台灣的這個像柯文哲這樣我的IEQ是167啊這個世界上的這個最優秀的這個制度系統或聰明的人啊絕對不是我們自己台灣人我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9797.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9804.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
注意 要稍微防範一下 台灣是台灣人的台灣 大家說幾句公道話 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9819.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9834.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9851.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9875.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9888.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9902.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9926.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9942.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9957.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9962.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10006.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10006.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10031.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10032.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10059.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10060.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
發言委員：完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10087.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10087.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10119.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10120.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10138.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10138.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10186.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10187.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
主席 各位先進 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10210.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10216.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
政府不要繼續編織謊言 剝削公教人員的退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10240.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10256.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
退休金之功能是維持退休人員的基本生活需求以退休者不適合跟領得跟現職者差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10264.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10283.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
年長世代把年輕世代的退休金領走當退府基金破產年輕世代領不到退休金我們來看看真相是什麼大家都很喜歡講國際的資料國際的理論我們今天呢就來看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10284.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10299.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
諾貝爾經濟學獎得主他是怎麼說的大家來看這本書這本書叫做《再次思考退休金改革》作者是Franco Modigliani他是1985年的諾貝爾經濟學獎得主 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10302.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10302.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
公教人員： |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10318.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10334.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
在我們的公教人員的這個退撫心智就是我們現在講的這個退撫制度裡面他就是確定給複製也就是說公教人員他要為政府工作一定的年限才能夠得到政府的退休金支付那支付的標準呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10337.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10361.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
是依據工作契約它在職薪資的百分比也就是所謂的所得替代率我再講一次所得替代率換言之它不是叫做什麼基本需求不是跟限職比它跟限職的任何一個職等任何一個級距的在職者都無關 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10362.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10366.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
是跟他當時在自己在職的時候他的薪資待遇來比 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10373.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10396.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
退休金改革作者是2010年的諾貝爾經濟學獎得主前一位跟這一位他們都有幫助許多OECD國家去做退休金改革他說退休金的功能是保險那我要講我們的退撫基金是政府強迫公教人員保的儲蓄險 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10397.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10421.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
然後呢我們政府卻踩了OECD國家一再講的他不能踩的紅線第一個顧主不能管退休基金第二個計劃發起人不能管退休基金因為OECD國家過去就是因為這兩種人管了退休基金之後造成退休基金違約付不出來各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10422.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10445.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
我們的政府是我們的退休計劃的發起人我們的政府又是我們的雇主他同時又還是退府基金的管理者他踩了紅線但是請問當OECD國家他們全部都知道這個問題他們改革的過程裡面包括第一步政府退出管理我們的政府退出了嗎沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10448.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10449.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
好 那我們看下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10474.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10493.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
退撫基金破產是由於政府管理退撫基金不當恭喜退撫基金前20年黑箱作業弊案連連投資收益率只有2.76%他過去的那些虧損過去的那些不當操作有給這些參加計畫的公教人民一個明白嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10498.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10517.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
既然他是一個保險 我說退府基金管理委員會 就是現在退府基金管理局的前身他其實就是一個儲蓄險的保險機構 那當他收到了這麼多公教人員的保費的時候 他不是應該去努力投資嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10519.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10526.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
為什麼當他投資失利當他黑箱作業當他弊案連連結果呢卻告訴我們說你公教人員你這些保護全部我要砍你們的錢當初我說的都不算怎麼會是這樣子呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10538.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10567.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
第四講OECD國家沒有一個OECD國家當他們在改善改革之後他們沒有把前面的蓋瓜承受智力跟我們國家一樣他發現他們前面他們真的辜負了那些計劃參與者於是他們在1980年改革的時候他們直接切斷後面全部用確定提撥制他前面的就蓋瓜承受基本責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10568.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10581.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以為什麼他們不會有世代問題不會有族群問題因為他們概括承受而且他們就很認分的概括承受他就知道說他要去處理缺口 縮小缺口剛才我有聽到有一位先進他說那個保險啊 如果說我們這樣保險是是沒辦法買到那樣的給付的我要說一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10597.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10603.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
商用儲蓄險是自願買的退撫基金這一個儲蓄險公教人員是被強迫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10605.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10626.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
第二點沒有人會因為轉換工作跑道而會讓他的儲蓄險承受重大損失但是退府基金會公教人員會今天公教人員他如果辭職的話他的退休的這個儲蓄他就會遭受重大損失難道自由是自由不是無價的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10630.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10641.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好我在這邊再說一次全特盟的訴求過去退休人員受夠了每次就來對退休人員扣帽子 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10642.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10657.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
退休人員要的不多當時政府承諾什麼你就概括承受什麼所以政府要概括承受經營退撫基金不當的全部責任不要再一直編織各種的謊言各種的話術來美化自己當時前20年的錯誤我再講一遍 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10664.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10683.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
如果前20年退撫基金能夠善用那時候退休人員還很少的時間好好的做投資他以國際的標準7%來看的話他在105年的時候他應該他的資金只要破1兆以上可是事實上他當時只有5000多億這個東西不用還給公教人員公道嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10691.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10714.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
第二個訴求政府應該停止編織謊言停止刻意扭曲退休金的定義和給付不要再製造社會動盪OECD國家他們每一個改革他們都改一次就徹底沒有不斷地製造社會動盪可是我發現我們國家非常奇怪每次製造社會動盪的都是從政府開始不知道為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10719.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10734.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我再講一次政府如果是比照智利我切斷之後我就概括承受而且不用再用破產來恐嚇大家為什麼當他們切斷的時候當智利切斷的時候他就已經知道他的資金池一定會用盡 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10737.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10765.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
所以他想的就是撥補的問題他想的就是縮小缺口的問題我再講一次在之前那個除菁新智在修法的時候我在裡面就已經提出了好幾次的方式可以用縮小缺口的方式去處理這個撥補是全市部自己不要的是全市部自己否決的自己否決所有縮小缺口的方案自己否決所有能夠降低成本撥補方案是不是應該要自己負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10766.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10769.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
不是叫這些無辜的配合政府的退休人員負責這樣對嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10774.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10798.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
第三個訴求政府應該立即停止公教退休金逐年遞減還給公教人員公道剩下30秒我也不知道今天的公聽會之後政府又會再編織什麼樣的謊言再出來不過沒有關係反正呢我向來就是一路一路過來你編織什麼謊言我打什麼謊言以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10804.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10807.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
好謝謝那下一位我們請林秋竹副理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10824.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10847.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
吳委員 還有部長 人事長 還有各會理事長 還有各位先進及所有在座關心所得 退休金所得替代問題的好朋友們 大家好我們全國公務人員協會是現職公務人員所組成的協會 僅代表現職公務人員表達心聲然後來 下一頁喔 這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10861.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10871.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
有關退休金改革逐年剔減到所得替代率60% |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10876.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10899.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
不當及應與改善澄清之處我們在這裡面剛才有講過一些屬於政策不當的問題第一個是財政不佳是個假議題第二個拿公教跟勞工來做比擬是不當的比擬然後年金年改目前年改指 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10900.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10922.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
重砍公教：對於軍跟牢並沒有一致的對待這也是不平等的對待再來就是為採取具有專事人員的考試院的版本還有違反信賴保護原則這剛才很多先進還有立委們他們都有做充分的表達我就不再說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10923.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10935.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
有關澄清或是我應該講說我是表達跟訴求我們限制公務人員我們不反對改革我們只是希望繼續不要再繼續減額我們反對不當的汙名 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10939.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10968.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
剛才我們有那個陳漢森先生有講過他享有很好的退休待遇可是呢那個時候是因為他有18%我們現在的限職人員已經沒有18%其實我們反對我們也支持終結18%所以我們不反對改革我們是希望不要再繼續減額希望第二個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10970.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10972.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
建構聯囊的政府必須要使公務人員無後顧之憂 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10986.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11010.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
政府效能、經濟跟競爭力的評比都名列前茅這些都應該歸功在各界公務員經經業業、陸力重工所累積來的因此要有聯盟的政府前提就要有一群聯盟的公務員我們希望退休金是讓我們可以無後顧之憂讓一流的人才來治理國家留住一流的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11016.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11017.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11036.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11056.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
五年內應該就制度以財政永續發展來做定期的檢討所以現在是一個很好的時機再來就提到所得替代率已經目前我們累計到現在已經所得替代率已經降到67.5已經到了考試院當年所提的70%的版本還有呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11061.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11088.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們應該讓這個時候若停止所得替代率的降低還可以讓年改的副作用就可以煞車剛才有很多專家學者也提到年改的副作用我們以前政府沒錢的時候要我們軍公教人員要共體時間現在我們的國家財政良好的時候是不是要考慮到要回饋我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11094.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11113.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
在有關生存權的保障這個議題來講過去幾年消費者物價指數的增加都3到4%左右然後這已經嚴重衝擊退休工人員的消費支出那110年到112年 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11117.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11142.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
公務人員退撫基金的提撥率從12%提升到15%每年增加1%對限制公務人員也造成實質的減少近年來政府雖然有調整公務員的薪資但均都是站在3%到4%之間由於通膨還有提撥率的提高退休金的剔減等因素調薪的效益根本看不到如果調薪能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11144.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11171.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
調到對限職人員來講能夠調到6%或6%以上這個才是一個實質的反應另外呢我們查雅護的民調暫不贊成停止公務員所的替代率繼續降低我們看那個數字贊成的占了51.7%所以民意上也是站在贊成這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11179.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11179.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
低階高齡公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11188.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11217.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
退休金的目的是要達到安養蓄估我們不是要自負我們不是要過得很富裕的生活就是要安養蓄估如果這個低階高齡的公務人員來講他們年老病多對於未來知道他們的退休金是未來越來越少的時候他們是會恐慌的是會不確定的對他們來講是一種臨時如果你知道你未來的薪水未來的收入是增加的你就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11218.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11244.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
趕去消費就像剛才吳委員講的為什麼退休人員不去花蓮旅遊了因為他知道他越來錢會越少了他就會恐慌這個是一個心理的因素所以呢重點是退休金要達到安老續孤的目的不然弱勢的退休老人也是社會的負擔這也是會成國家的負擔不是說只有權序部的負擔只有基金的負擔然後我們再來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11249.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11266.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
這個停止所得替代率降低對國家財務的影響如何因應我們在這裡呼籲強調的就是從兩個方面來講兩個方面來加強一個是加強基金經營績效我們退撫基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11268.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11292.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
一百零一年到一百一十年十年的平均收益只有四點一趴叫公保勞保其他各大基金經營績效常常見賠莫作如果基金的稀釣基金的報酬率能夠達到五點五趴以上依照精算報告就足以自應未來五十年的基金收支平衡然後再根據同一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11296.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11312.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
112年個人專戶退休制度新制成立後,新進的公務人員將歷令基金,我們舊有的基金將提前4年用盡。所以,如果政府每年撥補100億,也僅可以維持到140年也要用盡。 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11320.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11347.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
老保基金近兩年每年都撥補了130億那如果政府能夠對公務退補基金依照精算的報告如果每年能夠撥補521億就是公務人員部分285億消失的部分236億這樣子的基金也可以50年不倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11355.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11378.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
那停止所的替代力會不會引起世代的公平世代不公平的爭議我們要強調的是基金破產不等於政府破產政府是國家的雇主我們不能把雇主的責任通通放在基金的身上那根據107年的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11380.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11407.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
目標那時候的改革只能維持一個世代所以政府口口聲聲說是世代公平但是對於20年後的基金應用的應用對應應對策卻從來未提所以我們主張解決之道就是要加強加強經營績效跟依法逐額多補才是解決之道 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11409.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11409.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11434.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11435.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11463.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11464.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11483.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11504.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
主席 各位先進 大家好我是臺北教育工會 李慧蘭理事長我們想說這次的退休金改革 又要召開這次公聽會 非常的感謝我們五位委員我們要求第一個就是要專業的對話什麼叫專業的對話 就用數據講話 你不要雙標 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11509.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11511.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
拒絕政治霸凌政府對軍公教人員霸凌拒絕欺騙與誤導 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11530.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11540.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
全序部給我們的這個資料的時候我發覺﹖很多的什麼細節藏著魔鬼所以我在這也特別的贊成就是有關於藐視國會法還有那個什麼國會罪還有一個叫吹哨者保護法這個部分呢必須要讓我們的所有的不管你是當政務官也好或者事務官你必須要依據專業事實來講話不要為你的政治目的而遮掩很多的事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11559.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11586.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我們的政府在105年就一直在喊破產但是到現在還在喊破產但實際上很多老百姓根本就不知道中共叫年改的真相是什麼因為我們的視聽媒體的那個什麼留言力度跟恐怖程度真是讓我們覺得很害怕真相會變成什麼很像是變成錯誤的反而錯誤的很像是變成真相這是非常糟糕的一件事情所以我們的政府一直在講國家要破產 錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11588.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11588.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11602.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11603.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
公教退休金．提升退休所得替代率 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11623.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11625.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
限職教師第67條建議至少每2-3年檢討公教的退休金我們就看CPI指數來做一個調整第4個現況的部分我們來看其實限職已經調整每個月的提撥給政府的錢已經從12-15%繳的錢大概是勞工的5倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11646.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11646.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11660.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11684.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
退休老人每月被砍的養老金已經是限職的三倍所以人家一直講說這些年輕人要養老人家 錯了從這些退休老人的身上砍的錢是限職的三倍但是這樣砍對限職教師 對退休老師來講都是不公允的這就是造成了職業別的對立是用什麼 是用媒體來抹黑的是非常的糟糕 一個政府不可以做這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11685.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11708.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
第3政府必須確實依法依經算報告撥補金額到退補基金裡面這樣就可以永續為什麼不做就好像民進黨前書院長還有前勞動部何部長支持說撥補就是改革第4今年退補基金加這是我們要讚許的為什麼加很簡單105年之前不知道在幹什麼只有2.76% |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11711.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11725.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
但是自從年輕改革之後 大家的眼睛發覺到 哇 原來我們的退撫基金政府都有亂 亂 亂什麼亂操作 甚至於弊案一堆所以大家的眼睛都看退撫基金 你看退撫基金從106年之後到現在它的績效有多好雖然碰到那個烏鴉戰爭可能有複數 但是從這裡我們就可以發覺到 不是不能做 而是你不去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11734.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11758.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
你做不好之後回頭來砍你的僱員你這個政府當僱主是怎麼做的那我們接下來呢我們看公教退休金因為低所得替代率被砍殺公保只能一次就把他領走所以剛才我們有兩位教育前輩很抱歉啊你是教育人員你來這兒是公務人員的那個什麼公聽會你沒有辦法幫公務人員來講話的話你用你的那個退休金來講是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11760.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11760.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
公聽會：完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11791.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11799.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
第6個公教退休金已經低於OECD所得替代率平均的53%你看全序部的資料還是一樣亂給遮蓋OECD國家普遍具有良好的社會福利提供完善的老年生活照顧第7個我們來看像那個初期2006年OECD的那個一個專家學者叫辛炳龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11816.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11827.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
他也去參考OECD國家回來之後他說就薪資所得平均水準的毛所得替代率來看最高的前三名依序為印度的99.3%新加坡的89.9%以及中國的77.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11833.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11856.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
你們老師拿什麼最低的要不然就是把它做平均數那你為什麼不講那個多的呢所以我剛才那個何雲峰補教的那個老師我跟你講你現在是年輕你還沒有去養你的父母更沒有去養你的爺爺奶奶所以你還沒有到那個年齡你不要說你們這些老人拿走我們的錢我們什麼時候拿過你的錢你有沒有繳稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11859.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11859.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
國家總預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11889.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11891.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
投資報酬率從2.82那時候來講2010年到2015年我們所看到的資料大部分是政府提供的到現在我們的退付金其實收益率已經到4197.67億 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11911.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11916.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
當初我們105年我們的本金投資的是多少5629.96億都快要去賺一個資本了不是嗎那105年民進黨呢他說喊政府破產所以他先砍了軍公教那國家破產退福基金這些理由都沒有了你還要繼續砍嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11929.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11952.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
沒有道理 是不是所以呢我們希望政府拿出你的良心啊不說集既往信賴保護原則是政治殺戮下的一個笑話嗎所以呢我們希望在這裡頭也要跟大家講一下84年之前的恩己志其實跟退撫基金一點關係都沒有為什麼你們在做退休金改革的時候要砍這些84年跟退撫基金一點關係都沒有老人的錢呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11954.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11959.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
就像剛剛那個前輩講的所以有一些觀念是不太對我在這邊稍微糾正你我們來看105年的評估報告裡面就講過我們的退撫基金在第8條就有講過管理條例第8條它只有兩個所有的法律都只有兩個那是什麼呢就是當你基金不足的時候第一個調整費率限制教師已經調整提撥的費率了 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11981.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11983.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任政府撥補責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12009.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12012.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
為什麽?你說 今年撥補100億 明年撥補194億 總共是294億那也是錯的 為什麽呢?因為這個是撥補 因為成立另立新基金的那個錢所以到現在每一年 我們政府應該要給什麽? |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12025.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12025.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
公務人員退休資遣撫卹 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12044.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12046.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
金酸報告不能拿來當作一個操作的手段在這裡頭我就要想到共同題目的部分你從老人還有縣子教師那邊拿的錢一個是拿來預租到退撫基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12062.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12067.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們的35%的責任已經過了 都已經做到你政府這幾十年來 你的65%的責任你做到了沒有 你一個都沒有做到所以每一條法令都是告訴你要撥補 要撥補 要撥補那接下來呢 我們就希望 就是剛才我講的就是還沒有撥補 我們希望呢 政府不要在那邊騙人你對杜甫基金原來的缺口是根本沒有在補的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12086.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12088.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
公聽會上午的會議時間要持續進行至所發言均結束為止下一位我們請喬治華教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12117.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12124.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
因為時間的關係,那你那個書面給我們,我們這邊會做統整,這樣整合下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12128.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12156.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
主席 各位先進 大家早安今天因為時間的嚴肅 還有各位都提了非常多的一些看法那我先講我的身分 我在動物大學財富工程 精算數學系那所以我今天來參加這個的時候 我是用學理的方式來看那我也提了非常多先進來講 就個人的觀點 或者是一個整個的你們的職業的觀點上面 還有過去形狀那我提出下面的一些看法 我就用學理的上面來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12158.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12178.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
第一個來講剛剛很多的我們的先進都講到了我們退休金包括了一個所謂確定的給付制跟確定的提撥制當然我們公務人員來講是確定的一個給付制剛剛很多先進有講到35%我們自己負擔65%是一個雇主在負擔那雇主當然就是我們的政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12179.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12203.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我剛剛也會提到的非常多的說我的社會保險跟我的商業保險那實際上來講也是一樣的我們就以商業保險來講的時候當我的承諾沒有達到的時候要誰來負責呢當然就是他的一個經營者來做負責人這個點是必須要做釐清的那所以我們可以了解就是說當初來做改革改革是碰到了一個困難碰到的困難碰到困難就要改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12203.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12229.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
改革之後是不是就開始一帆風順當然不是因為我們知道說我們的經濟環境一直在做改變所以我也覺得說並不是一定所謂的改革跟非改革要這樣子的一個劃分而是說一個大的變革之後後來會隨著我的環境的變化會要持續的調整所以我比較強調是要持續的調整持續的調整包括我現今的環境的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12232.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12248.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
非常多提到我的精算報告精算報告每三年編制一次每三年大幅度編制做了非常多的試算但是我也提醒各位在做試算的時候都是根據去年年底的時候基本的資料往後做試算 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12254.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12267.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那麼它事實上什麼時候會用慶那什麼會不足都是根據當時禁止的情況下了非常多的精神來假設那這些東西在未來我們在執行當中到了明年的時候它會不會變化當然會做變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12269.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12290.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
那所以有各個年度的所謂精簡的一個報告那所以剛剛所謂各位先進提了非常多的方向我覺得那個都會值得會在所謂的精簡報告裡面來做細部的調整那所以我們也不要太多所以那個時間會用好或什麼時候結束你會再看下次的上一次的精算報告到下次精算報告中間是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12292.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12316.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
這會變動的,那這個變動也給我們一個警示,我覺得金鑽堡最大是給我們的主管單位一個調整的機會那也許來講說,我現在我是不是在維持我的計量的用耗的時間那再加上我們是一個水庫概念,這個最大的問題,我們的活水來源當我們現在新的公務人員來講,他用自己的個人專戶制度的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12317.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12343.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
所以我們在原來裡面來講說不足的部分那這塊部分我們是要去做解決那所以解決方式怎麼辦呢那應該是還是我們投資績效我們能夠把它好好的運作這是一個方向第二個我覺得講的說剛才也有委員有提到也有先進來提到就是說我用CPI來做調整的時候真的是不能夠忽略到我高齡社會我們退休人員都在65歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12344.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12365.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以他的需求上面來講 完全去採取CPI的時候我覺得是不足的 包括了醫療的成本包括我們現在的醫療科技的一個改變我們現在來講說 我們平均男生活到80歲 女生活到85歲但是當我們的醫療科技改變的時候 未來被強迫活到90歲被活到100歲的情況之下 會有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12367.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12389.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
所以我們看這個調整是要找重點,我覺得剛剛有很多先進,包括委員有提到說我調整的時候,我們要給我們健康的漁民這些東西是你要來做的,我覺得是請大家共同來做另外來講就是說,我們錢已經按照這個制度來講的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12392.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12414.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
部分可能要靠自己對退休人員來講自己要靠自己那我是來自於私立學校私立學校自己的一個教育的一個我們退休金的制度我們有自己提撥我們自己的嘛能夠一個投資我們的選擇所以我也覺得說可不可以再考慮就是說我們現在有了退休人員他已經拿到了我一個退休金的情況之下我很顯然未來是不足的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12415.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12437.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
外部組的部分有沒有辦法我們提供一個平台投資平台讓他能夠達到一個保守的或者是一個比較好的一個投資的績效我一方面來講我們會督促我們的基金會我們來投資他有更好的效率那另外一方面我們自己要做一點事情我們自己的部分來講我們投資但是我們的平台我們大家比較欠缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12437.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12457.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
所以可以仿照說政府來建立一個基本的平台一個保證的最低收益然後去往上你看到自己的風險程度然後去補足你這些所謂的被改革當中所欠缺的部分所以來講就是說確實很多先進講說這個影響不只是只有 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12458.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12476.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
影響到個人嗎我們當然老人化各位退休的老人化以後呢那會影響到什麼如果自己我對未來照顧我的錢不夠我活得過久我的錢不夠的時候那這個問題絕對不是只有我自己的問題而是整個社會的問題到時候再有更大的力量更大的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12476.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12494.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
方式來做一個解決其實都會花費的成本更高那我另外在最後要講到一個我們剛剛有在講到說我們的信賴原則我們是不是可以著雨調整剛剛有提到當我們一個特別的情況之下比如說大家都經過了我們的疫情期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12495.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12516.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
當我們的報單、我們的條款在做改變的時候那各位不知道說那麼這些問題看起來是否都解決掉了事實上是並沒有的因為它牽涉到了嘛其他各位還沒有看到的那這些還在持續的解決那我花費了更多的一個方式所以我來講就是說我們在做改變的時候在一個改化的時候我們會逐步來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12517.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12532.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
那麼我們精算報告來講的時候呢我們在個別的一個精檢報告裡面我覺得說可以再多做一些不同的試算所以這個政策的調整絕對不會是一次就到位了不會 會持續持續再做變動那限於時間因素 非常謝謝各位 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們下一位請王傑理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12548.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12568.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
各位委員、官員、先進前輩大家好我是台灣鐵路產業工會理事長王傑今天很榮幸來到這邊發表一些關於公務人退休資遣撫卹法修正的意見承認我之前寫過一篇專欄意見就是關於我不怎麼認同退休撫卹也就是年金改革會加深世代對立甚至擴大貧富差距這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12569.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12582.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
因為我可以很有資格的說我就是代表正在退府就職領著低薪的年輕世代公務員甚至在座各位與會的公務同仁多半都超過我的薪資因為我的薪資工作了10年才勉強4萬多 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12584.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12603.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我必須要先指出公務人員對於年改的憤怒不單是源自於年改本身是從在職期間就開始累積從整個政府待遇與信奉制度的設計既不穩定又充斥著滿滿的N級立場軍公交待遇審議委員會一個基層代表都沒有條心全看僱主態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12604.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12621.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
到近期勞動部一連串的公部門霸凌事件還有就業安定基金的貪污濫用徹底撲霧了國家長年以來對於公務員勞動條件從現職到退休都沒有顧及而且財政紀律紊亂的事實因此我認為有更重要的事情值得大家去重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12623.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12635.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
身為一個10年的基層公務員我當然擔心自己繳的年金無法在未來領到但我也重視老一輩的公務員奮鬥了一輩子所得退休金是否可以政府的一句話就改變領取機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12636.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12664.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
要知道一個基層的台鐵公務員奮鬥20多年下來薪資碰頂只有5萬8千多元退休後所得替代下來只有3萬出頭如果你是工作40年的話也只有4萬出頭我想問現在過活就已經很困難了何況是二三十年過後3萬出頭是可以吃什麼飯還是可以應付日常開銷嗎年金改革應該是一個持續檢討的事情而不是一朝成定局 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12665.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12691.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
我這邊分享我自己個人例子我的實際實領薪資4萬1千多元我太太也是台鐵公務員她也是大概快4萬我們這樣呢住在從我本來是住在天母後來我結婚後搬到蘆洲蘆洲的租金已經高到3萬多塊我租不下去所以我最後搬到了巴黎巴黎可以說是新北市的偏鄉吧到台北車站上班就要一個小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12693.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12704.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
而租金便宜的也要兩萬塊就是我目前大概兩萬塊的租金請問我們這樣薪資低微的基層公務人員是可以應付這樣子的需求嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12706.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12734.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
而且我們也要知道說現在的公務體系已經逐漸崩壞很多基層公務人員都是做不下去為的是什麼不就是薪資低落退休更沒有保障嗎甚至連公務人員體系最優渥的司法人員都面臨著書記官離職不斷只能找職代來代替打字請問這樣的司法品質會有保障嗎更不用說公務人員的報考人數逐年降低各單位都是人力不足加班過勞甚至現在面對職場霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12736.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12765.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
我想請問政府有針對這些第一線的公務人員的狀況有所因應嗎還是持續捍衛著這些標語擴大貧富差距惡化國家財政我們都知道政府拿著退撫基金勞保基金勞退基金進行投資虧損了不會說賺錢了就會做一張海報寫我幫勞工賺了一萬塊出來縮嘴請問公務人員假如退撫出現問題的時候政府有需要負責嗎還是直接推給一句老的領太多年輕的領不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12766.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12788.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
這不是這麼一翻兩瞪眼的事情也不是政府可以這樣輕鬆製造世代對立的理由更重要的是現今的基層公務員薪資低落政府也沒有想要解決我剛剛講台鐵資位人員起薪是38K而我剛剛說的工作20多年最高58K可是如今今年公布的薪資中位數是5萬5千多元啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12788.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12799.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
所以我們的基層公務員就已經是民眾薪資的低端了也難怪我們台鐵的離資率很高人力嚴重不足今年公司化根本就是個假議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12801.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12823.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
當我這樣的公務人員的薪資是民眾薪資的低端的時候請問這是正常的國家嗎一個國家的文官體系可以縱容這樣的低薪存在學區部長甚至可以告訴大家退休所得會比債值所得甚至有些超過有些甚至到八九成以上請問部長就算我一路做到退休我拿不到四萬的退休金請問這叫什麼退休保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12824.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12843.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
再看看我們的台鐵董事長總經理在公司化後優先為自己調薪額40%月領20多萬但是基層的職位人員就是38K聯絡的10年薪資就是4萬出頭請問這要怎麼使年輕公務人員買房生兒育女根本不可能有也是咬著牙過活根本不可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12843.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12856.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
不可能看到20年後有什麼未來可言所以如果不調整基礎的薪資待遇退休後所得替代下來的退休金是不可能活得下去的活得下去活得滋潤的都只有董事長總經理這些酬庸人士 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12857.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12883.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
政策的調整跟修法需要更專業的人士但不可忽視的是基層民眾跟公務員的心聲我想基層公務員的過勞低薪是不爭的事實然後我們的結婚津貼、子女教育補助費給予的兩個月是指的是本縫不是月薪十領而基層公務員的本縫只有一萬多塊這個是什麼戒嚴時期的標準嗎跟現在一般勞工是有著很大的差距的 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12885.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12912.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
每個公務員都是如此甚至司法官也是請問政府有打算調整修法嗎不然怎麼解決少子化的問題因為這種的薪資跟補助誰要生小孩更別說還有各種的問題像是育嬰留庭6個月給的也是本縫的八成薪死領大概也是一萬一千出頭還有賠產價過少甚至請假困難這些惡劣的職場環境不用多做什麼就是一個紮紮實實的職場霸凌了 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12914.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12943.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
我希望諸位先進能正視基層公務員的問題妥適處理退休人員的所得替代調整代表台鐵低薪員工以及公部門職場低薪公務員我認為應當趁這次機會請執政黨好好檢討年金改革到底是以退休保障為前提還是發的出錢為前提像我這樣的低薪公務員絕對不是你們口中領五萬多的人如何讓我們的退休生活獲得保障請藉著這次機會好好提出解方同時要提醒在野黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12944.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12964.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
停職所得替代率下降,固然大家樂見,但沒有挹注或撥補如何找錢延續年金,目前看不出有適當的方案,若沒有,最終只是加速年金破產若真心要保障公務員,請務必提出延續的方案,否則只是將年金改革作為政治鬥爭的話題,留下世代正義的問題,讓基層之間繼續弱弱相殘 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12965.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12988.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
雖然我相信如果政府的資源可以拿去蓋高鐵延伸、台鐵的高架地下化還有前瞻建設這些動輒幾千億的預算都能豪值出去卻不能做到照顧退休以及現職公務員是勞有所終、壯有所用又有所長只是在告訴國人這個政府只能顧得了現在幫不了未來也告訴所有現職未來的準公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12989.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12995.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
現在要你復出等你退休了在國家大義的面前你就要犧牲更多謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13017.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13041.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
主席還有各位立法委員還有列席的這個官員還有我們議會的寫者專家我今天總共有7點報告那我的報告跟大家的可能有一點不一樣第一個我就從法的著手大家來看我第一點報告就是刻意減低 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13043.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13064.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
退休守則替代率從75減到60這個不符退撫法的基本規定我們在退撫法裡面的29條第一項就明擺了規定每做一年我給你2%30年最高的話35年就75%但是你知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13073.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13096.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
這個只是一個餅能夠享受這個比例的只有民國107年7月1號跟108年12月31號退休的人才有這個機會其他的人這個是一個餅沒有人享受得到這個標準列在那邊那你年改啊為什麼要低於這個標準來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13098.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13126.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
第一個為什麼你改的時候你就把它你要降的就就把它列進去嘛為什麼畫一個餅在那邊呢那我今天要報告齁最後降到說其實我降到60到30啦齁30%那大家齁剛才啊都沒有提到所以實質上就是說你退退休人員受到的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13128.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13153.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
但是沒有提到現職人員也受到影響就像一個徒刀列車他走過去以後現職人員事實上你進來的時候就已經被砍掉五刀了我們被砍六刀現職人員被砍五刀事實上大家都沒有提到所以現在的年輕人也蠻可憐的 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13155.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13184.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
他如果是118年以後退休的話他開始就是只能領60%或最高60.25%你說這個公平嗎連現在為大家在犧牲運動的事實上他不知道他已經被砍五刀了被砍五刀啦這個親而以堪啦對不對第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13188.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13210.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
就是談到說有沒有世代不公的問題那我這邊要報告就是說依照規定第40條規定第36條到38條節省的經費就要繳到退伍基金你知道我們的貢獻啦退休人員的貢獻比現職人員還多 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13212.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13236.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
我們現在被砍差不多19.5%如果我服務35年以上的話那我繳到退伍基金期現在19.5%你退伍基金限職人員才提撥比例15%那我現在以我的這個狀況我被砍的部分29500塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13240.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13245.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我這個交到退伍基金那我從退伍基金才領18萬吧61%是我自己繳回去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13250.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13278.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
百分之三十一退伍基金負責的那你說退伍基金要破產然後違反世代公平我們的貢獻比他們大而且這個列車繼續走下去並沒有因為停止我們前面提撥的就沒有了還是繼續走下去他只是做微調每年我們提撥繳出去到退伍基金也差不多400億 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13280.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13308.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
這個列車繼續走下去在第三個物價飛漲你說這個情勢都已經改變你繼續這樣走下去那事實上現在去年物價上漲5.52%只有象徵性的調整一下物價指數調4%然後今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13309.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13323.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
到年底一估是百分之差不多2.5%到3%的通貨膨脹那你說現職人員要調百分之三我們退休人員還要減1.5吧請而已看第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13328.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13353.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
你不但是心裡感覺不公平 第二個 尊嚴也受到損失人家說你退休公務員 政府都不照顧你們 你們在減薪這是什麼世界嘛 對不對所以我是認為到檢討期5年了 現在應該停止了 而且還追溯到113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13355.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13380.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
1月1號因為砍的是在過頭啦過頭啦那第4點年金改革違反法律不恕既往跟信賴保護這個不是原則只有互動喔在中央法規標準法裡面第14條就規定喔法律這個實行以後才生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13382.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13410.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
你不能去追溯第二個 行政成績法第8條規定行政行為應以誠實信用之方法為之﹐並保護人民正當合理之信賴所以法律不恕既往你變更了法律關係你這個問題大法官跟這個保信會他創了一個名詞 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13411.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13426.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
叫做非正正庶籍既往大家如果是有事之事非正正庶籍既往的話有沒有庶籍既往有嘛 有陳問在嘛對不對 是不是亂搞嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13427.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13454.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那這樣的糊弄人家所以他用你公益的名義所以我來改變你們的你公益的話是大家要承擔不是針對退休人員那第五點限職公教人員的待遇跟我們退休人員的調薪事實上同樣的因素都是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13456.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13476.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
物價上漲所以啊 第二個就是說你物價上漲的時候你只調限職人員那如果我們退休人員一起調的話不是很省事嗎同樣的這個因素啊第二個就是整體的平衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13480.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13503.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
現職人員調整公務人員退休了也一起調整就彰顯國家對兩方面的人都是重視我們的心理感受就會好一點而且這樣的話彰顯政府對全體公教人員都照顧第6點 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13505.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13530.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
我認為整個的基金如果說要維持運作的話最好的基本就是因為因素是很多但是現在基金的運用範圍是蠻小的大部分都投資在股票、債券跟存款在國外比如說美國他們的退伏基金也可以經營事業 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13532.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13533.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
最後一點我後來補充了 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13549.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13555.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
就是說我們那個守則替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替代替 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13577.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13600.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
以為是沒有了事實上是繼續在走那如果我們主管機關認為說會有這個危機你就應該依照規定那我們退休人員每年撥了三四百億到退伍基金你相對提撥大家公平相對提撥 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13602.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13623.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
為什麼我們要繳那麼多出去那你為什麼不提撥我是認為這個就是大家要考慮的點所以財務的缺口不能都由退休人員來承擔那我也為現職人員打抱不平事實上他們砍了五刀不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13625.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13652.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
有沒有主管機關去跟他說明沒有隱藏的或者主管機關可以出來說我講的有沒有錯他們以後118名退休的人全部如果沒有改的話大家請六層有這種道理嗎因為他們現在已經進來就脖子架在上面的一手刀他砍五刀不知道當然要繼續砍 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13654.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13676.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
要再繼續砍五刀我們現在只能寄望我們的立法委員能夠支持為我們申冤然後也要呼籲主管機關為這些現職人員跟公務人員做考量不是一味的 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13677.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13678.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
李慧蘭理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13707.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13708.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
退休金改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13738.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13766.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
不好意思因為這裡面有一些數據還是需要一些數據來講話會比較好一點那我們先來看就是說112年7月1號政府每一年撥補的那個什麼退補基金的錢實際上是不夠的就像我們剛剛講過的那除了那個公務人員的話照理來講你必須要每一年撥補200 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13768.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13790.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
兩百那個 兩百八十五億暫時的部分必須兩百三十六億也就是從去年一百一十二年到今年一百三到一百一十四年實際上撥補的那個什麼要放在退撫基金的錢根本就不夠而最近呢所謂的兩百九十四億實際上是為了因為另利息基金那個缺口所以呢如果這個退撫基金的那個缺口你不再補助的時候未來你所繳的錢呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13792.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13794.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
政府撥補到政府基金的時候實際上是為了以後減少撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13806.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13822.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
懂我的意思嗎就是說你少一點撥補把那個洞補起來你以後呢就不會因為他撥補的數量越大你到最後你政府可能就跟之前這樣子就都不管了或者是後來又要再去砍這些限職教師的那個每一個月的踢撥率說不定可能未來到18%也都不夠那我們講說我們政府是非常雙標的為什麼這麼講呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13831.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13833.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
就是因為在目前我們的預算本來是1.9兆105年的時候1.9兆現在都已經3.2兆了他說我們的財政非常的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13844.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13861.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
但是實際上他從我們所有的那個所得稅裏面所課稅的錢也是越來越多所以呢我們希望政府不要再說謊不要呢見人說人話見鬼說鬼話甚至於呢故意說謊這是非常不對的但我們在接下來繼續的看哈 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13863.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13864.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
現職公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13882.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13894.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
實際上繳的錢繳的越來越多我們在這一頭我們的政府 我們循序部講說哎呀 我們現在所得替代率很高我們是用本分乘二給我們這些退休的 錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13896.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13900.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
我們根本就沒有那個什麼 多拿錢 為什麼因為每一個月現職教師 現在的現職教師還有以前的老師啊 他們多繳給政府的錢實際上是用本縫乘2 乘以15% 乘以35%但實際上本縫乘2 比你的你自己的那個新縫加上專業家級還要來得高所以你每個月都多扣現職教師的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13923.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13923.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
最後﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13951.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13977.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
我要講的就是 再給我一分鐘就是我們的政府講的毛索德替代率我們在這裡頭 我也有這方面的資料也去算 算了很辛苦台灣軍公教退休毛索德率應該是要用年薪因為OECD是用年薪來計算的所以我們用用來計算的話實際上35年年資我們現在大部分的公務人員他的縫點是在490以下所以他到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13978.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13978.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13999.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14027.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
好 謝謝那我們所有專家學者跟登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢那我們接著進行政府機關代表發言請就所送書面資料以外的部分做補充說明那我們這邊會逐一詢問是否需要再做補充說明齁如果需要補充發言的話 發言時間是5分鐘請問全序部有無口頭補充意見沒有齁 有好 來部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14036.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14036.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14055.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14055.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14076.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14103.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
第二點說明是至於退休金是不是第一年工資我想在七八二號已經有一號解釋了我想大法官並不是這樣認知第三個我想這個有提到我們本來就有三年做一個精算那每年都做一個小精算那跟那個小精算再跟大精算再做一個比較那狀況其實每年那個小精算結果都比大精算結果好像還不好啦大概我說第四第四剛剛提到我剛剛提到委員會說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14105.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14106.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14122.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14151.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
我想當初回過頭來這整個重點當初要改革有三個主要東西因為基金會用慶第二個 月退休所得跟限職所得實在是差距太近了第三個 體制年齡太早了所以從馬總統到蔡總統就一直在處理這個事情所以請下面一張所以提出很多方案這方案就是這張大家可以看得到的那透過這方案希望大家基金裡面所有人一起出力來解決這兩大政策目標就讓基金用慶能夠延後一世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14152.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14167.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
議員退休所得更合理這些就具體的方案在走具體的措施其實就有可能對已退者或者是還沒有退的人都有一些不同的衝擊我想這張表提供大家做一個參考接下來請下面一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14168.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14188.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
實際上我們直升到現在快這幾年裡面的大致上狀況是這樣就有預注嘛那這個預注大概目前預注了3000億左右那這預注我必須這樣講絕大部分預注是來自優存利息的歸零簡單講我們現在節省的都是優存利息剛剛有很多人談到這個事情真正退休金本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14189.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14207.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
進到這個役助裡面是很少的我不能講說沒有是很少意思就是說現在所節省的其實都不是你的繳的退休金而是18%是人民納的這個就全數役助過來所以能夠改善財務有相當大一個明顯性下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14209.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14226.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
過去這2點就知道缺口是怎樣產生各有各說各話有人說這因為投資不好完全造成不過如果你看歷史的背景來講那個沒有做最適費率的提撥這才是嚴重的一個問題因為如果看這張表你就知道我們有剛前面本來就預計應該繳15.5%可是我們只繳8%一路越差越大 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14230.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14231.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
基金缺口基金缺口基金缺口基金缺口基金缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14257.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14262.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
所以我比較一下這張圖給大家看一下如果我們拿純月退休金這已經不涉及 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14263.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14292.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那個18%的一個減少了這張意思告訴各位講不管是公務人員警察或教師大概來講純月退休金跟你107年年改跟今年實施的其實減少的比例呢相對來講是低的我不能講說沒有減少是相對是低的那目前大概都5萬塊左右跟其實純月退休金所以我們減少絕大部分是18%的優存利息我必須再一次跟大家這樣提醒請下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14294.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14309.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
那這個就是我剛剛提過的我們決定八成是優存利息那請下一張那所以呢從全區部的角度來講站在基金主管機關來講站在整個比較負責任的一個強項我們還是認為首選不要停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14310.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14310.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14331.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14331.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
14350.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
14350.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
14372.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
14393.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
如果不停止調降到118年我們認為現在的存月退休金的還是有購買力因為現在的月退休金還是可以支應一般的生活我們現在大概有八成以上的月退休者還是領五萬塊以上那預計我等一下會很快跟他講118年的時候所得會跟現在非常接近 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
14394.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
14420.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
那這個八萬塊 五萬塊代表是現值的公務人員的大概78%月薪的78%接近 很接近啦 現在比現在高考薪金稍微低一點啦不過已經也不錯了一個level當然高於民間的平均月薪長薪資那未來的在職者會因為隨著調薪他未來的退休金一定會更高我想這是基本的概念那現在的月退休金可以維持基本的時候我們還繼續維持跟著CPI調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
14422.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
14422.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
主席法定名目 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
14438.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
14458.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
替代力那個已經沒有太大意義了那請下一張我跟各位解釋為什麼沒有太大意義因為法定名目的一個退代力看到這一張我們一路降到60可是因為我們調薪我們透過實務的方式我們會去乘所以我們應該去算實質的替代力實質的退代力以今年來講113年是調到67.5換算起來因為我們調過一個1.2%跟4%換算起來就71.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
14466.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
14491.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
因為用乘的啦那如果假設未來都調薪只要調5%最後1年調5%你再乘上去實質的替代率是66.8並不是60我必須要跟各位講錢是這樣算出來的所以光看那個60老實說已經沒有意義了回到實際的錢為什麼會有5萬多塊是這樣出來的那當然如果跟月薪比較起來那是月薪會更高因為那是我們本分會乘以2去乘好請下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
14493.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
14498.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
所以我用公務人員來看我們去模擬這個退估我們有公務人員最多退休的其實是590 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
14500.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
14521.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
就是7等的年功那630是8等710是9等800就12等以上現在2004年大概平均值拿這麼多錢退休人平均值當然你會跟你哪一年退休是有一些關係不過平均值上總平均大概5萬5.02萬那75%的人高於5.1萬那我剛剛已經講過根據剛剛換算2029年大概還是至少會拿這樣的錢不會差太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
14531.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
14559.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
那我的意思在說這些是不是夠你一個人的基本生活這是一個大家應該要好好討論的事這是指公務人員下一張這是警察警察是比公務人員高這是給大家做一個參考最後今天很多教師界的同仁在這裡最後一張模擬教師教師最多退休教師最多退職的人其實是在625並不是490就是625OK就是新的625大概是5.9萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
14562.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
14583.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
平均5.86萬73%高於6萬我只是在講這是一個事實的數據118年以後大概會在這裡往後就不再往下講只要有調心就跟在往上我想基本上還是回應到說我剛剛講過我們透過繼續年改如果不調整我們年金又可以不要去維持一個世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
14583.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
14608.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
然後接下來每一個個人的退休所得還是可以維持在一般的這個生活沒有問題那至於這個CPI的內涵是不是應該用一些調整要更計算什麼的我想這是可以去討論不過因為台灣所有其他的政府社會保險通通是用一致的標準所以這部分部裡面只要別的一個改變我想我們就搭配那個方式來進行我倒覺得沒有什麼太大的一個議題那請下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
14612.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
14622.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
後面這一張我就不再做說明這是我們部裡面模擬非常多一個數字就不在這裡回到前面一張去所以總共來講我還是建議從部裡面角度來講我們認為還是繼續讓他走因為大家都沒有受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
14633.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
14645.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
法定的退休金本身真的不會受到太大影響我們從月退稅有降下來大家感受最多應該是18%的一下子降那麼多因為18%本來就社會上一直討論這個所以這個議題是從馬總統開始就開始主張優存利息要去做調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
14653.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
14671.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
蔡總統的那個107年就是一個全國性的會議也持續這一條路所以我覺得我們部裡面還是願意把這個事實跟這個委員會做一個報告那今天也謝謝這個主席讓我這個時間完整的來說明說我們做過專業的一個評估的一個報告就教大家 謝謝大家好 謝謝那還有哪幾個部會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
14683.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
14689.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
請問人種有沒有要補充?沒有內政部有沒有要口頭補充?沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
14692.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
14718.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
這樣好 我覺得我覺得是這樣啦就是說因為今天是公聽會嘛那公聽會其實就是它不是一場辯論就是我們多聽一下跟我們想法相同或跟我們想法不同的人每個人所提出來的意見嘛因為剛剛事務部長他也有提到說他這個計算的算式其實可能跟大家想的有點不太一樣那我覺得這個都會列入我們將來研究的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
14718.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
14740.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我不會說你的想法跟我不一樣你就一定是錯的我不會這樣我覺得我們就是因為我個性是比較持平去看待每一件事所以我會認為說我這邊我也會請我辦公室的同仁就剛剛部長的指教那我們會再研究一下當然另外我們會提一個就是說因為我們之前所拿到的資料是 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
14741.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
14767.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
會到60%那當然我們又再看一下其實從108年到112年其實我們的CPI已經漲了7.34那我就會覺得說一邊往下砍那麼多然後另外一邊CPI往上漲那麼多那我們也都知道我們買東西五年前的物價跟現在其實是有蠻大一段差距那當然我們公務員當年他捨棄外面的高薪然後來當公務員他徒兒就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
14767.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
14794.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
退休的穩定但是當他放棄當年可以在外面高薪的狀況下他來當公務員但是你又告訴他當初說了不算其實我個人從法律的角度來說我認為這個信賴保護上面是受到侵害當然我剛有看我剛有提到大法官說為以為了公益為目的之下那這個信賴保護雖然本來應該值得保障但是為了公益所以他 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
14795.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
14795.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
14816.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
14837.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
老公的模式去由政府來撥補這是一個值得我們考量的地方所以今天公聽會就是這樣公聽會是廣納各方的意見所以還好今天沒有針鋒相對如果今天有針鋒相對我就會請大家冷靜因為有時候主持公聽會會針鋒相對那就謝謝各位到場的專家以及政府官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
14847.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
14870.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我報告一下剛才我們主管機關部長也提到說未來到1118年的時候可能我們的所得還是很多我要講一下這個是依照消費者物價指數調整的這個是明目所得 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
14872.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
14895.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
你如果用實質守則去計算 哪裡沒有降低啦怎麼會沒有降低 根本就是糊弄啦你用那個一道CPI調整過的 然後說你的名目守則啊 哇 一大堆啊我們退休人員的名目守則 然後實質的守則是降很多耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
14896.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
14911.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
你跟人家講說他沒有什麼少那個時候的物價118年以後的物價比現在一定高很多所以這樣的講法是有一點需要斟酌不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
14914.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14935.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
對長官也不禮貌阿謝謝阿好 謝謝好那這樣齁就是謝謝今天到場的各位齁那我們今天公聽會的發言到這邊告一段落那感謝所有的與會者從不同的面向提供給我們非常多的寶貴意見那今天所有的發言內容跟書面意見及委員莊瑞雄所提出來的書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14936.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14950.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
均列入紀錄 刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告 送交本院全體委員及本日出席人員參考本次公聽會到此結束 謝謝大家 現在散會大家辛苦了 謝謝 |