| IVOD_ID |
16368 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16368 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024121148 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
審查「行政院函送公平交易委員會委員提名名單，李鎂續任委員並為主任委員、陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員、洪財隆續任委員，林慶堂為委員，請同意案」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會（事由：審查「行政院函送公平交易委員會委員提名名單，李鎂續任委員並為主任委員、陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員、洪財隆續任委員，林慶堂為委員，請同意案」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-16T08:30:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-16T10:57:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
02:26:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db42a67f5a6c5408b7247fba16bfc1c1c478081dad70f87c4673581976feb188a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會（事由：審查「行政院函送公平交易委員會委員提名名單，李鎂續任委員並為主任委員、陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員、洪財隆續任委員，林慶堂為委員，請同意案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:48 - 10:57:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
89.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
89.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1776.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1776.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 我們現在開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1779.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1807.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
本日議程是針對行政院函送提名公平交易委員會委員名單．李鎂續任委員並為主任委員．陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員．洪財隆續任委員．林慶堂為委員．請同意案我們今天特別舉辦公聽會聽取各位專家學者的意見我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為日後審查時的參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1808.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1832.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
好首先介紹今天我們參加今天公聽會各位的專家學者第一位我先介紹中正大學經濟系陳和泉陳教授謝謝歡迎陳教授謝謝第二位介紹亞洲大學財建法律學系吳瑩德教授系主任謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1835.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1854.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
第三位介紹大眾聯合法律事務所王明勇所長接下來介紹國立台灣科技大學科技管理研究所劉華美教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1859.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1882.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 謝謝介紹動物大學法學院 牛約正副教授 謝謝牛副教授好 介紹武漢法律事務所 黃國忠律師 謝謝黃律師世新大學傳播管理學系 郭乃峰副教授 謝謝最後一位介紹 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1885.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1894.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
雲林科技大學科技法律研究所 楊志傑教授今天與會的各位專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1895.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1919.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
今天跟大家宣布公聽會的程序如下首先會請學者專家發言以正反方教授為原則每位發言時間為8分鐘本委員要發言請自主一台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間為5分鐘發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束後則按鈴兩聲好 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1925.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1927.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們首先請陳和泉教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1938.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1960.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
主席、各位委員、還有各位專家、學者們大家好我是中正大學經濟系陳和泉今天來這邊講講我對這四位被提名人的看法主任委員、被提名人是李美她也是現在的主委李委員在過去的四年任期中 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1960.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1980.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
他確實替公聽會完成了不少的任務推動尤其是在111年很辛苦的去發布了數位經濟與這個競爭政策的白皮書那這一部數位經濟白皮書之所以重要是因為在現階段的數位經濟市場競爭當下它的觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1984.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2001.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
以及如何適用與既有的競爭架構目前都還在衍生發展當中國際上也是如此所以適用的框架上還在討論當中那我們這個白皮書一出來之後等於是走在國際上的前端 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2003.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2009.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以這非常相當的難得在去年公聽會辦了一個國際的研討會我們邀請到了韓國的學者來那在休息的時間呢這個韓國的學者對於我們有這樣一部數位競爭白皮書他也覺得非常的羨慕他認為這樣的一個作為相當的先進相當的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2028.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2052.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那也不僅是韓國這個學者在訪談在這個開會當中的羨慕永光同時呢這樣的一部白皮書在2024年也就是今年了也獲得了這個Conferences的反托拉斯寫作的獎寫作獎這是亞洲唯一啊亞洲唯一所以這部這部數位是做的是相當成功那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2055.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2080.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個李委員在過去的四年內在執法上也相當的嚴格同時在法律上也儘量的去與此俱進的去修訂了很多的相關的法律那像檢舉聯合行為的獎金發放修正公平法第21條修訂相關市場處理原則修正結合的相關法規縮短審查天數等等這一方面做的是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2082.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2110.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
成績不錯副主任委員被提名人陳志民也是現在的副主任委員陳委員事實上在工讀博士學位的時候他是法律專長但他已經跨越了領域去修復利經濟這方面的概念所以我們的副主任委員他基本上在法律學跟經濟學復利經濟學這一塊的領域上他是同時兼具的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2112.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2132.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個在學校的教學、學術研究或者在公務服務領域上他也都一直一直在競爭法的這個領域當中不斷的進行在理論研究、實務經歷上都做了長期的累積所以一個又兼具法律跟經濟知識學養的一個競爭法專家這相當難得所以能夠邀請的他 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2137.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2165.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
除續任副主任委員是相當好的選擇那他在這個國際業務上的推動可以說是公平會的引擎長期的參與OECD競爭委員會的活動跟他們密切合作積極的參與國際相關業務同時代理代表協助了OECD競爭法擴展競爭法擴展在亞洲地區的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2167.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2191.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
也因為這樣子等同於把我們臺灣的這本國的這個競爭法的位階提升到了日韓這樣兩個國家同時被視為被OECD視為是一個成熟競爭執法的國家這非常的難得那在國內也不斷的提升公平法的訓練跟素養他在 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2193.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2204.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
公聽會．立法院第11屆第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會期經濟、司法及法制兩委員會公聽會．立法院第2會 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2206.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2207.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
公聽會．立法院第11屆第2會期經濟及法制兩委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2237.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2259.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我個人覺得是相當的不錯相當的適任委員被提名人洪財隆也是現任的委員他是經濟學博士經濟學博士剛好可以在這個委員會裡頭扮演了關於我們經濟法案件之下決斷上所需要的經濟分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2260.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2272.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
經濟分析在公平法的案件上它扮演著相當重要的角色它需要由市場結構面上來普及廠商的競爭行為也當然需要檢視個別廠商策略背後的驅動誘因那這樣的一個行動行為上的脈絡因素呢就需要很需要依賴 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2283.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2311.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
經濟學專家提供剖析來作為案件判斷的基本資訊那當然他是提供一個旁證基本資訊不是主要的這個判決因素那過去的8年當中我們的洪委員在這個場域上他做出了十足的貢獻經濟學上的分析特別是在當前數位平台經濟的背景之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2312.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2318.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
各個不同用戶邊具有的效用互相影響的特性 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2319.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2349.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那因此以前我們在做經濟分析的時候當中的許多要素呢在數位平台經濟之下它變成了高度的內生化跟動態化在分析上變得更為吃力那這個就必須要更有依賴於具有經濟邏輯思維的經濟學專家在先前步驟上做有效的廠商盈利模式跟競爭態勢上去做分析跟掌握所以經濟學的分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2350.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2350.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在委員會裡確實是不可或缺的基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2354.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2361.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
而我們的提名人．被提名人．洪財隆博士呢剛好可以提供這類判斷的基礎好那這個也非常的失贊好委員．被提名人．林慶堂是現任公聽會服務業競爭處處長林處長在公聽會服務長達30年一路由科研到處長那曾經在製造業競爭處、公聽競爭處、法律事務處 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2381.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2396.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
服務業競爭處各單位任職閑守會內許多部門業務跟專業所以在實務調查、產業分析、法律適用各方面都具有了豐富的實務經驗幫助了公聽會在業務上的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2397.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2416.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
早期經手參與的案件有鋼捲鋼材業者聯合行為、機車業者限制業區銷售行為等等還有近期的在他處長任內的大案件比如有限電視系統業者與大型流動業未履行結合負擔條件的重罰案 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2417.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2433.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
還有在聯合業在我們國內大概聯合業是最普遍的了那這個包含了這個好樂迪的結合案然後遠傳電信亞太電信的結合案全年大潤發的結合案Fupenda |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2433.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2435.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
下位發言請亞洲大學財法系吳英德教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2469.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2492.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
主席以及在座各位學者專家大家早安我想這次首先先感謝委員會這邊的邀請針對這次公平會委員提名我發表個人的一些看法首先在這次提名的部分我想主要就是三位委員李美現任的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2494.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2517.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
陳志民委員還有洪財隆委員三位都是續任只有一位新任是林慶堂委員除了三位這個續任的委員我想在過去的一些表現以及相關的一些學經濟背景大概也都為大家所熟知包括李美這個主委大家都擔任過經濟部商業室的司長陳志民 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2519.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2545.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
委員陳志民老師是中原大學法學院的院長那這個洪慶隆委員過去曾經擔任過臺灣經濟研究院的研究員那包括最後只有一位是新學那新學是林慶堂委員那承認公平會的競爭處處長那我想大概在人選上面我想可能在過去的經驗上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2546.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2546.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2563.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2577.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
政府在提名相關的這個人選上面也可以再綜合的考量其他不同的專業啦那譬如說在經濟上面的這個專業也可以再增加那麼再來就是說我們最近一些比較特殊的一些不要說個案 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2578.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2597.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那比如說金融業的一些相關的一些複雜的一些案件那我想或許也可以增加一些金融方面的一些專家學者那或者是公司、財快這一方面的專家學者所以這樣子的話可能會讓我們公民會的這個功能能夠更加的完善那 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2598.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2619.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
接下來可能我就針對未來期許我希望說這個公聽會也許可以針對某些個案或者是說未來的一些方向希望這個未來這個委員如果順利續任的話那麼可以朝這個方向來努力首先一個是我們主委李美李主委那她在2021年的時候呢其實公聽會這邊已經有組成相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2621.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2635.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
任務小組對於數位平台做了相關的產業的全面性的一個調查但是很可惜的是我到目前為止我好像似乎沒有看到這個調查的這個報告的這個結案或者是甚至有任何的進展 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2636.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2660.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那雖然我稍微從這個新聞媒體以及相關的一些文件來看好像似乎公聽會對於這個數位平臺包括Facebook或者是說這個相關的這個這個平臺的這些情況呢認為說這個產業的這個涉及這個面向太多太複雜所以目前可能在這個相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2662.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2688.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
處理上面可能也許有一些延宕但是當然我個人是期許說未來可以針對這個部分能夠再有一些更進一步的一些發展那就我所知目前澳洲其實也已經有相關的一些法令都已經陸陸續續都推出了所以我想或許我們公民會也可以針對這個部分可以再多一些琢磨那第二個部分我想大概是我們大家都非常關注就是在Uber Eats跟這個Fupenda這個併購案上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2689.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2707.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那這個目前為止可能這個按照目前的這個審查這個期限眼看的就要到了就1、2、1、9就是過兩天就到了12月19號但是我想應該就是公聽會這邊應該就是會在延後延後這個審查但是外送平台其實它是一個目前我們大家都非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2708.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2735.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
仰賴而且非常倚重的一個經濟經濟的一個一個形態那包括我們這個這個大家外食的這個比例非常高所以這個平臺經濟以及這個這個外送小哥這個外送員這種臨工打臨工的這種經濟相對來說已經在改變了我們非常多的這個生活形態跟消費形態那也創造很多的這個這個工作的機會所以希望公平會能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2736.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2763.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
針對未來能夠針對這個合併案能夠再更加審慎的做一些考量那因為如果這兩家平臺如果他們結合的話我想這個非常顯著應該可以改變市場結構雖然我們目前外送的平臺業者蠻多家的但是我想大家大概最常使用的就是不外乎是這兩家所以我想可能未來公民會可以針對這個部分能夠再多做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2763.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2782.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
考量那最後一個呢是我也許我們公民會也期許未來公民會能夠針對我們市場上面的一些一些不當的一些競爭的一些形態那麼也可以多一些關注多一些關注因為其實所以現在如同我剛才先前提到的我們現在的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2783.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2806.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
經濟環境以及我們的社會生活形態的改變所以對於市場的一些競爭的一些方式也開始慢慢的出現了一些變化那跟以往有一些顯著的不同所以希望這個就包括我剛才提到這個數位平臺那我想現在政府打詐也打得非常的用力那其實很多數位平臺包括相關的一些廣告的投放 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2807.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2827.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那麼對於這些廣告的投放那或者是相關的這個一些的這個形態也希望未來公民會能夠針對這個部分能夠再多加的這個努力那我想我就針對這個公民會的這個委員這四位委員的這個提名發表我個人的一些看法那也希望這個未來公民會能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2829.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2832.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
謝謝吳英德教授的高見下一位發言請臺灣科技大學劉華美教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2872.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2892.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
主席立法院的先進在座各位學者專家先進非常榮幸能夠參與立法院公平交易委員會委員人士統一權公聽會公平會在歷屆跟現任委員們的努力灌溉跟心情跟雲下成長茁壯迄今超過30年並持續與其他國家的競爭事務主管機關和 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2898.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2906.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
競爭法國際組織交流合作例如三年一度的公聽會國際研討會就有來自世界各地的主管機關代表熱心參與討論新進重要競爭法議題展望未來期待將有如美國的FTC110年的榮景 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2916.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2934.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
公聽會：不論人力結構：就是在職公務員的學歷、年紀等：主管性別都有一定的品質從以往到現在是一個願意聆聽學者專家意見的行政組織以下幾點回顧與展望供新界委員、被提名人參考人工智慧、AI的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2940.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2954.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
人工智慧是一項科技軟實力目前尚未到爆發期美國Apple手機一開始也不是處於爆發期各國積極佈建人工智慧法規跟智慧財產權例如美國、俄羅斯、歐盟也包括台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2955.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2966.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
在此領域巨型的跨國大企業例如會打已在不同區域受到競爭法主管機關的關注並產生相應的案例對競爭法帶來了挑戰深層式AI例如CHAT、GPT經由訓練可產出文字、圖片和影片等全新的內容與傳統AI僅處理既有資料不同在競爭法產生新的限制競爭議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2982.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3008.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
美國DOJ已投入資源研究《AI跟Fantast法》OECD跟歐盟對AI也有一定的研究人工智慧是未來特別是對新世代、青年世代可預見的重要趨勢對競爭法可能引起的課題例如市場地位的濫用等臺灣需要及早重視規劃近幾年公聽會是尚未有類似主題的委託研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3010.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3025.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
二、數位經濟的影響數位時代對數據資源的掌握就是對競爭資源的掌握臺灣缺少本土的強大的搜尋引擎在網路時代數據量的累積可能不異於其他國家的科技巨擘比擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3027.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3053.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
對數位經濟而在中國大陸稱數字經濟如何加以管制成為相當重要的問題國際上已有不少針對跨國科技巨擘的競爭法案例如Google、Meta和Microsoft等這些寶貴的執法實務如能藉由國際交流與合作適可提供公聽會養分來建構對數位平台的管制模式、處理原則跟執法力道 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3054.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3079.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
特別是如果能強化跟美國、歐盟等這些具有許多數位平台案例處理專業智能跟經驗的主管機關的交流合作國際上尚有的做法是會做一些數位產業的產業報告資料和追蹤這樣的做法值得公聽會參考公聽會以往也有這方面的產業研究分析成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3080.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3105.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
面對數位經濟和日新月異的商業模式更值得投入這方面的資源歐盟的立法常領先於各國數位市場法於去年5月2日施行從去年到今年一共指定了七大事業為首門人以及由上述首門人事業所提供的共24個核心平台服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3107.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3135.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
其積極規管數位平臺不遑多讓歐盟這樣針對顯著有限制競爭疑慮的大型企業特別加以監管的執法策略值得國內參考不論是人工智慧或數位經濟都可能牽涉技術面的解決能力在智慧財產權方面有設置技術審查官未來辦理這類案件可考慮增加技術專家的協助 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3137.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3153.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
三、多層次傳銷的管理疫情對傳銷的商業模式也如同對其他行業帶來了衝擊傳銷產業在國人的參與人口佔比上並不低又存在成為變質多層次傳銷的潛在疑慮多層次傳銷產業已是獨立的產業類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3160.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3180.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
但其主管機關並非經濟部而是公聽會多層次傳銷管理法與單獨立法今年正好施行滿10週年透過多層次傳銷管理法成立了傳保會作為輔助機構在國際上美國是傳銷的發源地例如越南等地也都可見這類商業行銷手法 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3181.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3210.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
如何繼續健全國內傳銷產業的發展創造產業產值完備法制研究成果和減少違法案例等值得期許由公聽會出版的《認識多層次傳銷管理法》已在改版當中同由公聽會出版的《認識公平交易法》在今年8月發行最新版以擴增篇幅對數位經濟的因應傳訪會近年來也開始進行委託研修以上努力值得肯定 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3213.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3238.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
本屆委員努力於編轉數位經濟與競爭政策白皮書並在今年在國際上獲得獎項肯定克正推動公平交易法修法也受理社會大眾矚目的案例例如外送平台和金融業的結合市場上前兩大事業的結合一般要進行更嚴格的審查飲食與國力相關金融業目前應還沒有禁止結合的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3239.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3249.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
市場的監管跟永續創新價值的兼顧是新屆公平會無法迴避的任務謝謝大家也祝大家聖誕快樂新年快樂 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3267.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3277.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
好這樣子喔好那我們就下一位我們接著請牛約正教授謝謝謝謝牛教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3289.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3313.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
主席在場各位先進大家好那我是東吳大學的女兒鄭那這次很榮幸能夠有機會來針對公平交易委員會的主任委員以及副主任委員委員的這個提名名單那提供一些本人的意見那本人以下僅供這個提供一些本人的意見那供大院在審查時參考那麼首先本次提名的四位人選三位是目前的現任的主委、副主委跟委員那一位則是目前的這個服務業競爭處的處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3316.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3333.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
那都是目前在公聽會會內服務的相關的人員那所以呢以下本這個首先僅針對啊這個林慶堂處長那提名這個委員的這個部分先提供一些本人的這個潛見那就如同各位所知道的林慶堂處長目前是這個公聽業服務公聽會服務業競爭處的處長長期在公聽會內部服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3336.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3360.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
那本次提名這樣子的一個長期在公聽會內務耕耘的這樣子的一個事務官成為公聽會的委員其實一直是多年來公聽會在提名委員的時候的這個慣例那本次也依循這樣子的慣例提名這個公聽會的事務官作為委員那其實對於近年我們公務員的這個待遇一直無法有效提升人才外流然後士氣不振的這樣子的現象相信是可以帶來一些鼓勵的 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3361.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3382.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那林處長從基層開始一直受到長官的肯定直到目前擔任處長那相信這樣子的一個經驗啊這個經歷啊對於這個相關的公聽會內部的人員的一個士氣的提振會帶來很大的幫助那所以這個可以說是一個相當值得肯定的人選那至於接下來關於這個三位現職的主任委員、副主任委員跟這個委員的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3383.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3412.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那大概主要從過去幾年的這個任內他們所進行的一些相關的工作那提供一些我自己的分析的看法供大院參考那麼首先就如同剛剛其實有提到的李美主委任內一項重要的工作那就是針對這個數位經濟競爭政策白皮書那提出了這樣子的一個非常有這個具有指引的這樣子的一個這個成果那其實當中針對了許多國外的執法趨勢進行了分析那詳述了公聽會目前在執法上面可能採取的一些觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3413.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3436.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
那所以許多事業在參與這個競爭活動的過程當中都能夠去明確的預見公聽會未來的一個執法的方針那整體來說那雖然可能針對一些個別的意見在學界或者是在相關的業界大家的見解可能不太的這個相同那但是整體來說這樣子的一個全面盤點競爭法全面盤點公平交易法的工作那其實是一個高度值得肯定的工作成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3437.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3458.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那麼當然過去其實大院不乏針對這個競爭政策白皮書抱持著一些這個批判的看法可能認為那對於特別是像是媒體議價的這個工作其實在競爭政策白皮書當中相對來講是比較少的那有一些這樣子的一個看法那但是整體來說這樣子的成果啦我相信從學界整體而言是給予一個肯定的評價那這個大概是我自己的一些簡單的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3461.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3475.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
公聽會這幾年相當致力於在進行一些國際的交流活動單純以今年為例在今年6月的時候就舉辦了國際的研討會邀請了許多外國的相關的學界、實務界的人士來台灣進行交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3475.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3504.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那在今年的這個11月的時候也舉辦了這個ICN的這個結合的工作坊那其實也是針對這個國內外相關的一些這個食物運作的情形做了相當有意義的這樣子的一個交流的活動那其實都對於國內的學界乃至於食物界的發展其實是一個具有長遠規劃的這樣子的一個想法之下那所進行的這樣子的工作並且提升了我們臺灣的公平交易法競爭法在國際上面的能見度跟知名度那這樣子的做法我相信也是相當值得肯定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3504.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3527.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
最後李美主委的任內相當值得關切的一個重點就是其實花了一些時間特別是從2002年到2003年的一個執法的觀點上面開始做的一些消費者權益的這樣子的保護的工作儘管向來我們學記的認為說公平交易委員會他其實工作並不在於做消費者保護這樣子的工作其實對於這樣子的一個執法的態度多半是抱持著一些比較批判的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3528.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3540.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
但是整體來說由於我國對於消費者保護的行政其實相對之下欠缺一個有效的中央機關來進行統籌的執法所以公聽會有的時候還是難以避免的必須要去承擔這樣子的執法任務公聽會在2002年針對事業隱匿重要交易資訊在美容的過程當中進行一些濫用、煩擾行銷的手法進行了裁罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3553.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3581.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
在2003年的年底一連串的針對一些使用交友軟體然後來吸引消費者然後基於一些戀愛的心理上面進行消費那進行了五個處分書都顯示出了這屆公聽會對於這個公平交易法的執法似乎不是單純只是把重點放在競爭法而投注了更多的心力在做一些消費者保護的這樣子的工作那這樣子的一個成果那對於國內的消費者的權益當然是能夠帶來一些有效的這樣子的幫助那某種程度上面也是值得 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3582.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3584.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
公平交易委員會所採取的競爭政策那帶來一些重要的指引跟形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3611.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3637.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那麼這個地方我們從這個數位經濟競爭政策白皮書的內容當中其實可以提出一個值得大家去關注的重點那就是在於說在數位競爭政策白皮書的第163頁當中有提到說關於我們的公平交易法第19條維持轉售價格這樣子的行為的執法的方針那麼未來要更重視建議公平會去考量擁有顯著市場力的事業他才有可能透過這種維持轉售價格的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3639.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3639.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3660.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3679.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那但是這樣子的一個執法的方針某種程度上反映在這個白皮書當中反映出了現任委員的意志那但是對於未來整體的我國的這個產業的秩序的形成到底是一個什麼樣子的影響例如說假設今天委員的這個組成改變了或者是一般業界到民事法院去提起民事訴訟了 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3680.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3704.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那麽競爭政策白皮書當中所宣示的這樣子的觀點到底會如何去形成那麽我相信也是值得我們在目前針對這次的人事議案去進行審查的時候那麽大院跟公聽會這邊能夠針對這樣子的議題那有更多的詳盡的討論那我相信這個也是很多文化界、出版界的人士大家所關切的一個很重要的競爭政策上面的議題那乃至於目前公聽會也針對公聽交易法去提出了一些修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3705.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3723.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那是不是能夠把這樣子的想法跟修正草案的內容去進行一些結合讓未來公平交易法的執法能夠有一些更明確的這樣子的一個運用的成果那我相信也是值得在這次的這個議案當中啊對於一個未來的競爭政策的這個視野這樣子去形成的過程當中可以去考量的一個重要的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3724.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3751.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
最後一點關於聯合行為執法在李鎂主委任內很重要的方針就是主要是希望能透過檢舉獎金的方式去爭取擁有違法行為事證的內部人員來提出違法行為的事證相較於過去幾任公平交易委員會的主任委員普遍傾向去爭取透過搜索扣押的機制去取得違法行為的證據這樣的一個執法方針某種程度上是不太相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3752.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3778.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
那到底是不是代表說在我國的這些違法惡質的聯合行為只要透過違法檢舉獎金的這個取得那麼就能夠去解決去打擊這些惡質的行為那其實或許也是值得更進一步的討論是不是立法院有可能在這樣子的一個議題之下賦予我們的公民會更多的這個執法的任務跟工具去打擊違法聯合行為那我相信也是值得這次在進行審查的時候去討論的一個重要的議題那以上大概是關於我個人針對這次人選的一些淺見那提供給大家參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3780.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3796.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
非常謝謝紐約鎮教授精闢的發言 謝謝下一位發言請雲林科大科技法律研究所楊志傑教授主席各位先進 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3804.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3822.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
很榮幸受邀到此公聽會以下提出一些公平會施政的大方向是我個人對公平會的期許下頁這次的四位被提名人中三位都已經要邁入第二個任期我期許委員們在第二個任期能夠積極認識回應社會需求與期待適度擴張公平會的執掌與作為下頁社會各界對數位經濟的市場競爭議題有許多期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3831.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3854.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
因為這樣的期待促成了公聽會於2023年12月公布《數位競爭政策白皮書》但從白皮書的內容來看公聽會打算用既有的公聽法與執法方式解決數位競爭議題不打算改變調整執法的方式或制定新的法律這跟他國競爭法主管機關相比態度保守許多下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3855.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3873.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
對數位經濟議題參考其他國家可以有兩個調整方向一、可以思考公聽會的職權要不要擴張到網路消費者保護領域二、公聽會可以思考要不要對數位市場的競爭問題調整執法方式下一頁首先第一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3874.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3894.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
各國對於競爭法與消費者保護的主管機關採取兩種方式第一種是合併管理模式由單一機構同時負責競爭法的執行和消費者保護事務例如美國、英國、韓國都採取合併管理模式第二種方式是分開管理模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3895.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3912.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
以及競爭法和消保法是由不同機關分別管理例如日本和台灣下頁雖然台灣和日本一樣採取分開管理模式但是台灣的消費者保護法的執法方式卻大大不如日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3913.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3933.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我國消費者保護法主要採取民事責任由私人自己提告主管機關消費者保護委員會沒有積極的調查權、裁罰權另外,整部消費者保護法也欠缺不公平或欺網習軌此種一般性禁止處罰規定沒辦法處理許多新興的網路消費者議題下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3935.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3960.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
相對的公聽會有幾個條文可以稍微切入處理消費者保護議題一是公聽法第21條規範不實廣告但行政處罰的對象只能規範參與競爭的事業而非任何人二是公聽法第25條規定事業不得為其他足以影響交易秩序之期望或顯示公平之行為這個條文是學習美國FTC Act的第5條 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3961.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3975.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
在美國這個條文其實是屬於消費者保護的條文而不是規範事業競爭的條文但公聽會可能會因為足以影響交易秩序這個要件的限制不太願意動用這一個條文來處理消費者的議題下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3978.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4004.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
對於數位經濟產生的消費者保護議題若屬於合併管理模式的國家會更為積極認識先看美國美國的FTC同時監管競爭法與消費者保護法美國的FTC法第5條後段的不公平或欺網行為或守法屬於消費者保護的概括條款可用來處理網路上的新興見證廣告網站設計暗黑模式的各種網路消費者的議題下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4006.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4035.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
此外FTC也積極制定新規則來對付新的數位市場消費者保護議題例如FTC最近提出一個點擊取消規則要求網站必須讓消費者取消訂閱的方式與當初訂閱網站一樣容易而不能刁難消費者第二個規則是隱藏與虛假費用規則草案其要求網站在對消費者銷售商品服務時不能隱藏各項費用也禁止有誤導性的費用下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4036.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4057.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
南韓也是採取合併管理模式南韓公平會是競爭法和消費者保護的主管機關在消費者保護議題上南韓公平會主管電子商務等消費者保護法有權調查、命更正與處罰的權限此外南韓公平會也會對各種網路的新興消費者保護議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4058.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4071.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
提出新的指引或修法例如南韓於2024年2月13日修正公佈電子商務法等消費者保護法特別為網路暗黑模式設計一個新的條文因此我期許公聽會應該積極認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4073.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4073.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
公聽會．審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4094.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4116.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
會委員可主動研究修法採取合併管理模式修法擴張公民會職權其餘消費者保護領域也對數位經濟消費者保護議題提出具體的法案下一頁除了消費者保護議題之外第二個要思考的是公聽會對數位市場競爭議題是否調整監管方式在數位環境中因為網路效應 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4116.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4141.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
容易形成獨佔事業出現各種超大型的網路服務業者產生的競爭問題比實體市場來得更嚴重而對於網路事業是否違反競爭法事後判斷的方式卻很困難故歐盟於2022年制定《數位市場法》希望改變競爭法的執法方式改採事前指定大型的數位市場守門人包括大型網站和線上平台等 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4142.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4166.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
並且事前明確規定數位市場守門人應該做為和不該做的行為下頁歐盟這種對數位市場競爭監管方式的調整也影響其他國家例如英國於2024年5月剛通過《數位市場競爭與消費者法案》日本於2024年6月通過《智慧型手機應用程式競爭促進法》南韓的公平交易委員會則於2023年提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4168.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4186.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
平臺公正競爭促進法草案目前還在協商中下一頁比較我國數位市場的監管教構首先我們有數位發展部可是數位發展部強調發展不太想監管數位市場而公平會在數位經濟競爭政策白皮書中 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4186.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4198.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
似乎不太想提出類似歐盟數位市場法此種新法規而選擇採取既有的競爭法執法方式採取較為事後被動的個案認定方式下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4199.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4219.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我期許我國公聽會在亞洲各國說中不要跑出日本、南韓而成為亞洲的引領者在數位市場競爭方面公聽會應該學習歐盟、英國、日本乃至南韓研究數位市場競爭專法將監管方式稍微調整提前 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4221.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4240.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
總結我對公平會的兩個方向的期許突破既有的競爭法執法領域與執法方式一是擴大職權到數位市場的消費者保護領域並提出相關的法案二是調整對數位市場競爭議題的執法方式並提出相關法案謝謝大家的聆聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4242.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4251.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
非常謝謝余甯科大、楊智傑教授精品的分析好 下一位歡迎請大眾聯合法律事務所王明勇所長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4265.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4279.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
主席各位先進大家好今天早上很榮幸能夠受邀參加這次的公聽會那以下針對這次的行政院函請各大院同意的人事議案提供兩點意見給大家參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4281.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4307.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
第一個,針對那個行政院函請同意的名單的部分的意見那我們可以看到這一次的這個行政院函請同意的那個名單它有個特點,就是說我們這次有四位嘛然後有兩位是法律的專業的背景兩位是經濟的專業的背景第二點,他們四位其實都有豐富的公平交易法的執法的經驗那有三位當然是委員的續任另外一位其實他在公平會任職的時間也相當的長 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4308.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4331.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
另外呢 第三點就是說兩位是原來的學者兩位是行政官員出身那我們從這個三點來講我想這一次的特點都還蠻特別的那第二點的部分我們從他們這一次提名的四位他們這幾年在公平會執法的經驗我們可以做一個績效的評析第一個部分其實剛剛諸位先進也有提到過第一點的部分這幾年其實公平會強調的是強化 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4333.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4361.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
數位經濟時代競爭秩序的執法那我們可以看到很多相關的這個針對產業經濟的部分很多針對網路產業其實有很多執法的案件第二個部分在執法的這個實際的作業上面其實是越來越重視落實公平交易的正當行政的程序那第三點的部分這一屆公聽會跟過去比較不一樣這次更重視司法對公聽會處分案的審查的意見那這一次他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4362.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4365.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會公聽會．審查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4381.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4401.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這四位提名人如果獲到同意我想是才是所應該可以使公平交易委員會的效能更加的發揮這是針對那個名單的意見那第二大點的部分針對就是說他們提名或同意以後這個期許的部分有以下幾點請各位參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4401.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4428.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
第一個部分就是公平交易法的這個公平交易執法的正當程序的法制化的部分我們建議是說會裡面後續可以再更加強那這個部分包括就是說備處分人他可不可以充分的陳述意見然後相關的卷證的檢閱的部分目前的這個規定的部分實際上的做法其實慢慢的符合這個要求可是在我們的法令的部分反而是沒有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4429.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4430.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
法定部分加以修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4450.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4464.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
慢慢的越來越好可是我們的法令其實是沒有法令的部分是沒有修的這是很可惜的地方我想我們應該要這個部分所以才會建議修正落實這個整個國際重視公平交易行政程序的法制化的一個潮流 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4464.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4484.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那第二個部分 針對這個違法令和行為的查緝的部分我們應該在法制的部分要去考慮我們是不是要抓他放小這個當然是一個考量執法的成本比如說他的罰款金額如果太少或是小規模的事業你是不是一定要針對他去處分我個人這邊事實上是認為在法制上可以再做一些審酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4485.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4508.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那因為我們今年非常特別我們今年會裡面有針對我們新竹城隍廟口的這個小吃的管理委員會的這個攤商的部分做一個處分但是並沒有划環只有做處分可是這個部分就是說當然沒有錯會裡面這樣的處分有它的法令的依據但是如果會裡就這樣處分我想因為也是一個問題以後菜市場菜市場同時漲價一定大家通通檢舉到會裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4510.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4535.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那會裡就會碰到一個尷尬的狀況我究竟要不要到菜市場去查緝我究竟要不要做一個處分那這個當然是沒有錯剛剛提到會裡面針對這個部分確實有他們的考量也符合或許也符合法律規定的要求但是呢我們以這樣的國家充分的資源就是說是不是說會讓人家誤以為是說哇這個中央機關都要管到我們菜市場的這個價格的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4536.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4557.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
這個部分當然還是剛提到會裡面的處分有它的依據但是我們是不是應該去考量說針對這個部分要放在大型的限制競爭的行為這是個人的意見這個部分但是這個部分或許在法制上要有更多的規範或許會裡面整個依據會比較強所以這個部分提供給這個是個人的一個期許的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4558.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4575.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
第三點 個人建議 會議應該要強化公平交易法執法的效能公平法有很多公平會議跟受調查對象協議的機制包括停止調查程序、行政程序和解、行政訴訟和解、調解 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4577.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4577.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
公聽會．審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4592.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4592.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
委員會主任委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4617.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4637.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
會裡面跟收調查對象整個後續的這個協議機制這個其實是整個各國的一個整個執法作為的趨勢這個並不是是說我們單獨所以我們公平法才有這些規範但是我們希望是建議是說既然有這些規定了但是我們更應該活用這些規定所以這個部分第三點提供給各位做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4638.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4664.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
第4點個人期許的部分公聽會還是要積極提出公平交易法的修正草案送大院來適應當代社會經濟的情況當然剛剛幾位先進都有提到這幾年來公聽會很積極地來調整相關的法令但是我們可以看得到法令的部分修了很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4665.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4692.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那另外一個部分就算是在法律本身相對性的或許是因為爭議的問題比較多所以反而是提出來的法律的修正案反而比較少那變成是說在這個地方是不是說足以因應當代社會經濟的情況的調整我想這個部分恐怕要更積極的去討論、去思考來提出這樣的修正草案那最後我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4693.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4721.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
個人的這些期許其實跟今天在場其他先進有一點不一樣的地方其他先進大概或許比較強調我們現在在數位經濟AI的這個公民會在執法涉及到數位經濟涉及到AI我們要怎麼調整作為可是個人因為是法官出身所以我個人還是要回到原點我們整個執法的行政程序還是要去強化我們整個執法的行政程序其實剛提到我們在法律的法令的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4722.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4739.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
實際的作為或許並沒有落差那麼多但是在我們整個法律的規範其實已經落後了其他國家很多所以個人期許說我們新一屆的公民交易委員會能夠針對這個執法程序的部分更加落實去調整以上意見供各位參考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4741.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4754.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
我們謝謝大眾聯合法律事務所王所長緊密的發言下一位請盧信昌教授臺大國際研究所那之後我們再請楊瓊英委員來發言謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4763.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4790.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
各位先進各位同好大家早我想今天這個機遇是非常難得一方面作為一個產業經濟研究者對於公平教育法跟市場競爭這樣的議題是長期在關注那個人因為這過去的30年間也在校際會當志工所以參與了不少遊走在消費保護公平教育法跟整個市場競爭的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4795.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4799.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
五個方向跟三個案例來跟各位切磋 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4800.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4825.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那第一個這個大家都很清楚公平法對於這個欺網跟不實廣告是有這樣的一個執法依據那我在參與處理這個聯動債各位都記得這個自然人聯動債年代包括我們的劉兆璇院長都賠掉了大概1800萬台幣的這個退休金那時候我們事實上公平交易委員會就受理這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4826.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4849.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
金管會的委託以這個不實廣告的方式來啟動調查但是金管會在維持這樣的一個金融商品的自主開發跟讓國內業者有這個國際聯動的這個機會還是試圖去踩它的線我想這個案例告訴我們一件事就是說公平交易委員會在公平法的這個適用上頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4851.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4870.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
雖然沒有主動去對主管機關的議案做表述的空間但是一旦那個問題大到一個程度需要有一個斷然的止血尤其當這個企業的某些行規或者他們這種常態作為雖然看起來沒有實質違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4872.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4894.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
但是顯然是顯示公平跟有這樣的期望事實的存在我想在連動在這件事情上頭當初我的參與可以看到貴會的用心了那第二個比較麻煩的是這個也就是大家都知道我們從陳水扁的年代就開始對大陸的鞋襪、毛巾都刻煩請銷稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4896.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4914.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那身為一個經濟學者我個人對於這樣的一個反傾銷稅的使用沒有落日期限沒有具體的政策目標深深感到痛苦因為各位知道一雙鞋課80%運動鞋那如果是淑女鞋、紳士鞋是課百分之123 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4917.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4943.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那臺灣消費者長期忍受我們從陳水扁開始為了切斷兩岸的某種經濟過熱因而以還請消費方式讓我們的消費者是買一雙鞋是付兩雙的價錢所以我的學生到國外去交換之後發現了一件事情就是在歐洲任何的百貨超商、百貨公司買到的新鞋、新款鞋價錢跟在臺北的這個Outlet一樣貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4944.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4971.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那原因很簡單因為我們要繳80%的反省銷稅那我多年來持續的寫文章也要求跟這些國貿局的這些高層對話終於到去年他們也真的斷然做了思考然後在去年年底取消了反省銷稅可是請問各位反省銷稅80%拿掉以後你到Outlet去買運動鞋有變便宜嗎沒有主事機關在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4975.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4995.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這是一個跨品牌的行為它當然是聯合行為這些跨品牌的Outlet各自在反請消稅取消之後還是不做價格競爭那台灣的消費者買的Outlet已經是屬於那種劣等品、退貨品 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4996.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5008.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
或者是品管不夠高的款項所以各位當然知道你買的這個OLEO鞋其實是不耐穿很多人都摔倒包括我們劉翁教授劉翁先生他這樣貴為84歲的高齡穿了一雙3000塊的鞋都摔倒 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5013.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5038.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
因為原因很簡單那個橡膠成分是不合格的我們繼續認定這樣的貨品打著反傾銷稅打著保護台灣企業的方式讓消費者喪失選擇的自由讓業者輕易的透過政策可以達成實質的價格勾結沒有人有作為好當然第三個案例打破不是那麼容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5040.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5067.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
從美國對於這些長春藤學校以這樣的聯合抵制特殊優秀同學的這種算投機啊就多方申請、多方拿獎學金但是最後是發球權在學生身上那當年這個19...劉根時代因為這些學校會開始做某種有意無意的入學管道的勾結反正你已經入企我就不要它 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5069.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5096.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
那這樣的一個從美國的FTC開始介入到開始跟教育界達成協議大概就花了5年了那達成5年之後的這個協議其實到最近才終於因為一方面美國的年輕人開始流行不念大學因為他們認為平均學費4萬塊美金4年下來20萬美金的這種開銷一半以上的家庭負擔不起那 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5099.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5120.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以因為需求減少加上大陸的留學生不能到美國去這樣的一個實質有益的作為所以美國的高等教育機構現在居然是非常競爭我在美國的一些朋友的小孩手上都可以拿到六七家長春屯學校入學許可這在以前是不可能的也就是說一個概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5124.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5142.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
機關的態度從它開始啟動到變成一個大家接受的公約但是因為它又涉及到違反這些學校的利益因為他們的過度競爭會造成他們在學費的收取在學生的組合在某些獎學金的給予上頭上司主動權 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5144.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5170.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那終於要到整個美國社會因為高學費因為整個抵制特定國家的留學生因為整個不是升多升少現在是周多升少因而讓大學終於開始競爭所以當然我們對公聽會期許也希望就是說公聽會必須要在政策的延續性在某些政策態度的一致性在某些 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5172.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5192.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
因時的這種忌諱去試著抓取主動權跟重新跟社會做溝通的這個努力必須要繼續因此我對公平交易委員會有以下期許一方面當然我們的主委是有長期在制裁權方面的這個理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5193.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5216.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
那制裁權剛好是整個作為阻止競爭作為一個這種所謂這種訴訟蟑螂其實非常常有的事情所以我相信他的理解在整個這個不競爭或者阻止競爭的這作為上有相當的深入那我們這個林慶堂委員一直在標榜他在傳銷方面的這個努力跟成就 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5217.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5230.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
的確銷售渠道跟轉換競爭形式也是一個經濟過程裡頭常有的狀態他們各自的這些作為都有一定的經驗基礎在 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5233.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5255.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那另外兩位學者出身的觀點雖然一個是在經濟端試著去標榜他對於企業的友善那另外一個是在法制端長期有作為但是回到我剛剛講的那幾個案例跟我們希望對公平交易委員會能夠秉持創會的初衷能夠持續在帶動台灣的對外開放 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5257.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5283.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
在帶動通路之間的競爭跟在實質理解到台灣作為一個這個國際的參與者我們真的必須要在概念、在行動、在政策作為上領先群輪因為一個民主的台灣最大的成就跟動力來源就是來自於人民對於機關的信任跟支持以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5285.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5290.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
好 非常感謝盧教授的發言下一位發言請楊秋英委員發言時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5297.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5324.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
非常感謝我們主席排定今天的公聽會尤其要特別感謝所有的專家學者因為公平會在我們國家來講其實食衣住行、娛樂完全離敗不了我們的公平會所以它是第三中立的單位可以說是非常重要的一個中立部門所以本席提出本席的論點以提供各位先進大家來參酌 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5325.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5344.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
公聽會是作為維護市場交易保障公平競爭的關鍵機構它的組成與運作它直接的影響到整個產業的發展跟消費者的權益所以我們根據行政院10月30號的提名現任的公聽會裡頭的李美主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5346.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5369.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
以及副主委陳志良先生、陳志民先生那麼委員洪財隆也都是要續任在提名的名單裡頭服務業競爭處的處長林慶堂先生也被提名為新任的委員這四名被提名的人的專業我們必須要好好的來討論首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5372.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5393.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
公聽會總共有7個委員其中包括了李美主委、副主委、陳志民先生等4位委員的任期都在明年的1月31日到期李美主委在今年的9月份的時候她曾經表示如果人事案卡關造成剩下委員的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5395.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5419.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
少 審查留會那需要在時間內裁決的結合案就可以直接來過關所以很多人高度的質疑是不是以人事案來卡關讓有很多的案子必須可以可以好好的來討論的卻真正的被卡關那但是在今年本期舉例今年的5月份外送平台就表示要合併 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5420.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5444.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那本席也不只一次在立法院經濟委員會執行公聽會必須要以公共利益為重而公聽會拖到了11月份才要業者來補齊資料那麼在最近才有宣布由原先的12月19號要公布準博的結果那麼延長審查到最晚可以到明年的3月21號再公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5447.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5469.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
可以顯現公聽會不僅在做事沒有達到社會大眾所需要的效率性效能還想用外送平台合併案卡官位我認為如果是真如如此是非常不妥我們再以機關橫向的聯繫來看外送平台合併案還涉及到勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5471.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5491.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
還涉及到交通部等相關單位必須要好好的來討論跟配合交通部在10月11日預告修法明訂機車外送平台的一個費率公司因為社會大眾尤其消費者以及店家大家都覺得非常的不安 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5493.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5520.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
這個標準到底是要如何世界各國有很多有訂定訂定這個平台費率的一個基準數那勞動部呢在10月16號表示不支持外送平台的結合案這是勞動部在10月16號就已經非常明確的表示但是併購案的權責機關單位也就是我們的公平會到至今 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5521.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5547.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
還裝聾作啞還認為12月9號的時候呢用重新界定市場以及估算市佔率來掩蓋這幾個月的沒有做事情那麼漠視了14萬將近15萬的外送員以及10多萬的店家以及全台消費者的一個權益所以本席要在這邊說 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5548.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5566.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
也就是說提名的委員以及現任的委員公聽會應該要以專業以民為本的立場確保公聽會的維護市場的秩序這是非常重要讓公聽會能夠真正的替臺灣的經濟發展跟公聽競爭再創更穩健 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5571.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5571.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5592.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5607.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
所以我們也非常的希望能夠聆聽各位專家、學者大家寶貴的意見能夠讓公聽會能夠真正成為守護臺灣人民的產業發展的一個保護謝謝好 謝謝楊勳委員發言 下一位發言請臺灣經濟研究院林欣無副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5627.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5650.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
主席還有在座各位委員跟學者專家大家好那我是臺金院林新吳那這個下一頁怎麼弄好那我大概分成四個部分來談今天委員的這個續任跟這個新聘案那首先我先談一下自己個人的經歷下一頁我在臺金院帶的團隊都在處理創新跟創業的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5653.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5675.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
長期都在看臺灣的產業結構的變化那我曾經擔任過第六屆的行政院公平交易委員會的委員那這幾年呢我一直都在協助一些國內外大企業處理一些競爭法的議題那當然我也一直在關協助企業臺灣的企業處理他的法尊的議題所以我一直都在看臺灣跟國際上各種競爭法的演變那 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5680.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5709.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
公聽會其實就像剛剛委員所提的我覺得這個概念非常非常重要它其實是在處理的議題不是只有執行公平交易法它其實它的任務是在確保臺灣的市場的自由與公平競爭要促進經濟的安定跟繁榮所以在處理這個議題上面我們不能夠只看待公平交易法當然公平交易法的執法跟修法是一個很重要的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5710.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5729.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那現在從臺灣的角度來看待我們臺灣在整個臺灣的市場跟產業它的演變上面有哪一些很重要的挑戰第一個事情當然是我們現在很清楚的是數位然後AI今天下午現在應該是全國科技會議在談 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5730.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5756.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
重點在談AI怎麼去協助台灣持續發展當然另外一個議題在永續的這個議題但是這個地方有兩件事情一件事情是我們怎麼在這樣的一個新的局面底下促進台灣市場的公平競爭但是有另外一個議題是在於台灣有這麼多的大型業者特別是半導體或是伺服器的業者我們在國際上有很高的市場占有率 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5756.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5779.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那這些業者他其實會面臨國際競爭法的一個挑戰所以這個時候其實這些業者怎麼合規是一個很重要的議題否則我們台灣可能會因為這樣就像當年的面板一樣受到很大的威脅這是一個第二個事情我想各位可以看一下這個公民會的年報各位可以發現到這幾年來台灣民眾關切 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5784.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5791.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
臺灣市場競爭狀況的民眾越來越多這是檢舉案件數我在100年從公聽會離開到現在112年數據上看來這個檢舉案增加50%到60%也就是說我們臺灣民眾對這個事情已經越來越認真那這個時候出現了另外一個問題就是說到底是哪一些業者被檢舉的業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5813.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5840.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
那如果各位仔細去看它的比重主要都在跟民生相關的議題也就是零售批發業100年的時候是27%到112年的時候達到49%所以這個事情會變成說不是只有臺灣的大企業需要重視競爭法臺灣的民眾也很關切他日常生活當中是不是得到他的相關的市場是不是面對公平競爭下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5843.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5850.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那另外一個事情是如果各位再看一下公聽會的年報你會發現到他們的職員數是在下降的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5852.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5879.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
那在這種情況底下當然我知道立法院有協助提高公平會的預算但是這個預算呢可能還是相當有限重點還是在於怎麼協助公平會這個資金上面或者是資源上面可以協助他們提高他們執法的效率也就是說我們大家都希望他嚴格的執法可是從另外一個角度來看假如他的專業能力或者是他的數位技能沒有辦法提升的時候其實這個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5881.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5908.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我們只是在強加於公平會的任務跟責任而已那這個時候我們就回來看國際上是怎麼處理的我剛有提到其實我們一直在看國際上怎麼處理數位跟AI在競爭法議題上的處理他們其實非常強調怎麼導入數位跟數據分析的工具然後這些工具其實是在協助這些執法機關在事前的政策做風險的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5910.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5937.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
協助他做輔助的調查但是這些事情基本上需要人也需要經費所以這個事情我覺得這是我們必須要重視的一個挑戰最後一個是我們在談現在談那個台灣均衡發展均衡台灣的發展那這裡有一個很重要議題其實剛剛大家在談我剛剛有提到我們其實公聽會他的主事法裡面在談的事情是在促進台灣的自由跟公平的競爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5938.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5963.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
但是我們有一個議題一直都沒有談這個已經我猜大概20年沒有再談了就是我們怎麼談整體跟各個部門的競爭態勢那這個事情呢我覺得蠻好的一個事情是公平會這幾年因為國際的交流所以他們跟OECD有一些交換意見那我這裡提了一張圖我想在座應該有很多經濟學家應該可以理解這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5966.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5986.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
OECD它有一個指標叫PMR那PMR越高表示這個國家的管制制度越來越差但是呢管制制度越差表示它的這從這個圖它是負相關嘛所以它的多因素生產力就會偏低所以這個時候其實當我們現在在跟OECD在交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5987.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5988.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6010.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6036.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
所以這個事情或許我們應該從公平交易委員會的組織法的角度重新來想這件事情應該對這個事情有一點重視提供他機會給予資源讓我們好好的檢視一下臺灣的管制的狀況然後協助臺灣有另一波的這個新的發展讓各個部門更為競爭可以協助我們臺灣這個生產力越高好下一頁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6038.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6053.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我對於這四位委員是表示同意的態度那一個很重要的原因並不只是單純的個別的因素當然個別的專業是大家可以認同的但是他其實在過去幾年裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6053.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6073.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
根據我的觀察他們已經在很多地方朝著剛剛談的這幾個面向分別去佈局那因為剛剛幾位專家學者都有提到很細的一些議題我就不再多做說明但是我這裡必須要提的一個很重要的議題是在於我發現到我觀察到他們這幾年來處理的案件呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6074.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6088.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
其實在過去可能比較偏重在一些比較不是那麼嚴重的違法行為這幾年反而是在聯合行為上面特別是去年有非常多的聯合行為的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6090.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6115.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
以我的經驗聯合行為是一個非常難處理的議題那他們願意勇於認識發揮他們的專業來處理這個議題這是非常不容易的最後呢就提出我的期許大概四件事情因應剛剛四個方向我想我們必須要針對數位跟AI還有勇氣的趨勢好好的處理我們可以參考G7的一些作為我們好好的來調整台灣的作法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6116.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6142.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那對於國際數位的大趨勢跟資源的減少怎麼數位賦能我們公聽會的同仁怎麼樣導入工具我想這是一個非常重要的事情我們不能夠只是要求他們嚴格執法公正執法我們必須要給予足夠的資源跟能力來協助他們另外一個事情是在於我們怎麼樣子兼顧到大範圍民眾的需要特別是我們現在發現到 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6144.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6149.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
零售批發業者比重增加而且我們公聽會還負有一個責任就是防止認為超重物價的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6151.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6175.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我們怎麼樣能夠透過數位工具來協助公聽會提高他們在處理這些議題上面的工具然後能夠減緩這些議題讓民眾們可以有更好的公聽交易跟競爭的環境我想這是我們應該協助這些委員來處理這些議題最後一個是整個管制的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6176.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6197.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我想這是對台灣再往前再往上一升升級的一個非常重要的一個議題那當然這裡可能會有一些狀況是說我們跟OECD一個溝通上調查的結果如何那這個事情應該還蠻值得我們來關注而且期待希望我們把這樣的一個競爭評估跟法規條式的議題能夠帶進到台灣的這個競爭環境裡面來以上提供大家參考 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6205.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6217.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
臺積電臺積電臺積電臺積電臺積電臺 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6228.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6252.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
很高興第二次來到這個專家的會議裡頭提供給大家來看我們公聽會的一個續任委員以及新任委員他們的這個才華在哪邊那我們先看一下或者是審視一下其實整個世界他到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6254.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6272.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這個VUCA的時代那其實應該從後面看回來就是在整個態勢上面非常的模糊模糊性非常高任何事情的發展他是很模糊的再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6273.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6289.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
很複雜一件事情是很複雜的以公民會來看的話從供需這樣的一個簡單的市場裡頭其實它複雜度非常高也就是說在數位服務經濟時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6291.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6305.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這件事情提高非常多也非常不確定性另外也就是說它的變異是很快的如果說我們從這個架構去看我們公聽會這幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6308.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6336.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
那因為有續任的這個主委、副主委還有這個洪委員還有新任的這個林委員其實新任的林委員呢他是在服務處已經擔任滿長的時間這個經驗這個經驗對於我們要走上這個服務經濟時代非常非常重要那我們如果看這幾年其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6338.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6348.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
過去傳統的公聽會比較是從供給面去看廠商有沒有勾結有沒有合謀有沒有壟斷其實這種市場失靈的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6355.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6370.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
大致大致傳統的公聽會處理的就蠻上軌道的但是現在的廠商因為實體還有這個數位時代數位網路暗黑是這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6371.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6398.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
商品非常非常多所以這幾年在續任委員還有服務處的處長我們好多次的接觸其實他們對需求面就是說廠商如何到了需求面導引消費者做出不利自己的行為這一塊呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6400.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6412.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
公聽會這幾年花了非常多的力氣在裡頭那就是這個暗黑模式的應用所以說在剛剛講的模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6415.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6437.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
複雜以及不確定另外快速的時代裡頭我們的公聽會這一次提名的我覺得是非常非常適任的也就是說從戰略或者是這個趨勢優勢上面我覺得這四位的委員都有其長處團隊力量 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6439.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6461.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
是非常強的要應付那樣的一個世界這樣的團隊再加上還有到幾年後才會到任的整個組織力是非常非常強的因此我覺得從幾個角度來看一看提供給將來審查委員做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6466.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6490.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
第一個在執法上過去幾年其實在主任委員、副主任委員對不對還有這個洪委員、林處長的積極執法上面我覺得非常有成效也是前面幾位專家學者都提到了另外非常重要就是政策創新這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6491.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6511.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
在前一任的組織裡其實對於政策創新尤其是數位經濟白皮書的制定完全跟上歐洲的腳步其實這個全球化 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6513.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6526.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
競爭法的這個大家一起協同大家有一致的看法其實非常非常重要的所以說第二點就是政策創新再來就是有關這個技術的應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6528.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6545.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
就是說過去傳統的公聽會處理的議題大致是市場結構的模型大致就可以了可是這幾年屬於這種體驗的啦數位經濟時代的啦其實如果說沒有在技術應用上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6546.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6562.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
尤其是大數據的應用這幾年公平會內部組織也產生新的大數據應用當然這個跟主委、副主委還有委員們同心協力對於大數據的應用這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6565.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6586.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我覺得速度上都蠻上軌道的另外就是國際合作因為超級大廠就在那邊了那像這個谷歌、FB、Meta其實不是單一的國家內部的議題經常是一個全球性的大廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6587.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6601.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那我們對於他們的作為可能是供給面的可能是需求面的可能是有關消費者人性上的失控失靈 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6602.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6627.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
會被誘導出來那公聽會到底要用怎樣的角度切進來呢有時候就單一國家的公聽會的看法不足以撼動整個趨勢可是有歐盟的力量、美國力量等等的看法其實都有助於反壟斷把人心導正、把廠商透明度加高所以這個國際合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6629.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6654.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
是非常重要的那這幾年其實公平委員也經常邀國外的學者專家來臺灣演說也參與了去國外去這個交流我覺得這個是非常非常重要的那再來就是說有關教育推廣這一塊更是重要了其實公平會目前的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6655.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6678.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
知識密集度是高的是高的那如何如何透過教育訓練跟跟我們的民眾做接觸這件事情是非常重要的所以我建議就是說未來新的新的主委上來之後應該加強這部分好就是增強社會的認知 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6679.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6697.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
另外在部會裡頭我感覺就是說公聽會在行為經濟學上的應用是非常非常深入的那如果我們看看美國、歐盟他們在行為經濟學上的助推的這個模式上的探討、實作 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6700.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6721.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
以及教育宣導是非常多的那我特別提就是說洪委員在這一塊大概是國內裡頭最注意的謝謝非常謝謝師英大學關乃光教授的發言下一位請武漢法律事務所黃國忠律師謝謝黃律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6730.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6753.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
親愛的邱肇杰委員、各位貴賓、各位好朋友剛剛聶建忠教授說早上兩點鐘才從東京回來我以前去康橋哈佛吳東生委員家玩那個大富翁發現那個有錢人玩大富翁跟我們一般國民不一樣土地可以拿來抵押借錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6754.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6771.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
遊戲中還可以跟其他的競爭者借錢來蓋房子以便以後收取過路費跟保護費其實公聽會可以考慮參考第二張圖形反壟斷的這種遊戲加深國民對於競爭法的認識 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6778.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6795.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
所以公聽會的組成其實管制經濟學跟國營企業管理、國企管理學比較重要我甚至主張說臺電、中油、臺鐵的定價或定價的公司要遵循公聽會的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6798.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6822.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
再來就是讀買的圖形只有在中級的經濟學跟高級的經濟學有可以來檢視說球員是不是受到球團的剝削外送員是不是受到平台的剝削甚至可以檢視臺電是不是圖利綠電再來就是一般教科書可以看到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6824.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6844.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
獨賣經濟學的圖形飛機上的每個座位其實都是差別取價而來我是因為在報紙上看到說士林地檢署把扣邀的那個黃牛票拿去平台重新開拍賣我有個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6845.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6873.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
就是千萬富翁、億萬富翁、十億萬富翁來買那種周杰倫的黃牛票是不是反映了他的特權的價值、時間的價值、排隊的價值這些得到的錢有沒有照憲法的規定回到教育科學藝術工作者的身上再來就是那個無謂的損失其實在英文的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6874.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6898.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
的字義上面是指沉重的人或者是沉重的東西我們舉重婚、蒼蠅籍、羽毛籍、重量籍等等其實dead weight是指沉重的東西剛剛有很多先進講到歐盟的指令今天我剛剛溜出去小支部看到去吃飯 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6899.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6926.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
看到電視上的標題是立法院在打架其實選罷法跟採購法都是競爭法財政部作為政府採購的主管機關只是還沒有施行我甚至建議說公聽會也輪流作為採購法的主管機關在行政程序法 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6927.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6955.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
有規定說海洋廣場的競爭方式要給競爭者表示意見的機會資格跟那個價格都要先給競爭者表示競爭的機會那我還在士林執行署的研究報告裡面說事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6958.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6979.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
說日本的國稅徵收法採取維克利拍賣的方式就是第一高價的人只要付第二高價的價格我們知道說荷蘭的鮮花拍賣是降價拍賣英國的古董拍賣是升價拍賣維克利拍賣得到諾貝爾經濟學獎 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6983.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7011.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那所第一高價的人付第二高價的錢這樣就不會聯絡和壟斷就不會互相勾結結果我看那個研究報告好像是誤解了他的內容應該是還沒有採取這個制度再來就是說公聽會也主管不正競爭我主張說讓地方政府也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7012.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7036.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
不正競爭的主管機關的權限不但如此公聽會還可以設東北中南市區的分會天地會各地都有設有分會公聽會如果設立分會我相信在不正競爭的方面更有保護消費者的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7039.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7062.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
然後呢我有一張投影片就是寫說競爭法打不過大聯盟意思就是說球員打不過財團這樣子今天的華爾街日報的頭版就說有錢的人向川普屈膝祖克伯跟貝索斯 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7066.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7074.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
對特朗普的就職基金會各捐了10億美元他們以前對就任總統從來沒有這樣捐過 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7078.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7106.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
再來我有一張投影片是在講西洋棋我們的洪財隆委員很主張很喜歡玩西洋棋我要說明的一點就是西洋棋沒有拐馬角那個白馬可以跳出來變成維也納的開局中國象棋跟台灣象棋有拐馬角其實是在有些事情上是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7108.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7127.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
剛剛楊瓊英委員有提到人數卡關的問題我需要報告就是說這些申請釋憲的人都沒有講到人數卡關的問題大法官寫出來的意見是指那個叫做附帶意見沒有拘束令 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7129.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7150.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那大家都提到說提名人有沒有夠格或不夠格的問題其實新竹的黃提元清華的黃提元教授有教我續位經濟學他曾經選過新竹市長我要講的就是說大師兄提名四隻黑貓 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7153.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7175.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
南白黨團提名4隻白貓黑貓抓3579隻白老鼠白貓抓2468隻黑老鼠那對不起黑貓又有兩隻讓位給白貓我覺得這種檢視的方式比較公平美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7181.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7208.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
傳托拉司法學者博克曾經被提名為大法官他因為以前免職特別檢察官尼克森要求把特別檢察官免職法務部部長辭職副部長也辭職那博克他覺得法務部這一家店還要繼續開下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7212.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7238.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
就把特別檢察官免職再給我兩分鐘可以嗎?好謝謝那後來呢他的提名沒有被參議院通過BORK這個字甚至成為說讓人家阻止人家受到公職提名的英文字還寫在劍橋的字典裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7240.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7266.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
好那剛剛楊瓊英委員有提到這種優步跟熊貓的問題我跟各位貴賓報告說印尼的GOGIC就是外送平台的大老闆去當那個當上了印尼的教育部部長我想那個換訓力委員換雲召集委員一定非常的羨慕我還有一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7270.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7285.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
還有一張投影片是在講回答的緩解壟斷調查我要提出來的就是說我們看到這種新聞的時候是同仇敵愾但是公聽會不要自私立場我們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7286.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7312.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
競爭法的主管機關所以守好自己的本分就可以了剛剛有幾位先進也提到說數位經濟的問題在我看來跟我國的經濟規模有點關係所以前高鴻安委員講說跟澳洲、日本、韓國打群架就是幾個國家聯合起來的經濟規模讓那個平台能夠接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7313.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7336.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
最後我們有一位被提名的委員是寫股價的論文還有我要講說今天那個德國的信任投票就是說你是不是還繼續愛我如果不繼續愛我的話我要解散國會那在台灣不信任投票反而是一種自殺的方式謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7339.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7350.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
謝謝黃國忠我們前委員也是我們現在武漢法律署的律師謝謝您的發言下一位請淡江大學財務金融系聶建宗聶教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7358.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7372.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
主席在場的各位先進嘉賓大家好我是丹江大學財經系聶建忠那麼剛才黃國忠稍微敘述了我是昨天兩點回來不是我昨天早上回來但是半夜兩點開了email知道今天的主題 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7374.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7374.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
公聽會．審視案 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7393.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7407.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
那當中裡面呢還更強調的是裡面非常多經濟學的理論啊從這種反托拉斯還有各種經濟學的消費者剩餘等等的東西很淋漓盡致但他是個法律人但我從經濟學的角度來再加強我一切想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7408.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7436.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
那麼在我們所學的經濟學裡面呢這個最基礎的東西我們有micro和macro各體經濟學強調兩件大事而已那我現在要強調的就是公平會議未來可能要把關這兩件大事當然第一件不可置疑叫做fairness就是公平你看川普在2018年3月20號一上來就說要fairness、fairness、fairness說中國跟他所做的東西不公平講了三次所以他要negotiate他要reciprocal就是要互惠 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7437.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7453.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
公平是重要不可言喻我在教企業社會責任裡面強調的就是不管主顧關係或者對待所有員工就是要公平對待太重要了再來我要講的就是但是剛剛有講到這個市場中你有時候會產生不公平像剛剛黃立民有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7454.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7454.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
完全競爭市場與不完全競爭競爭市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7471.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7488.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那這個呢是我最後要講到委員呢必須要有什麼樣的一些know-how我覺得才有辦法做好公平這件事情因為我們要普民要普惠好所以呢我就這樣當然我們時間的關係我要盡量快當然我也稍微看了一下剛剛在這個上面齁坐在這邊滑了手機 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7489.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7518.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我看了一下公聽會的執掌當然我們知道它是80年成立就是1991年2月12公交法這個立了以後然後隔年成立1月13號這都剛好我在手機上看的然後重點是執掌我大概讓上看出來它有五個重點第一個就是法規的禮定第二個就是法律就是公交法的審議第三個呢就是對很多經濟活動或事業的活動的一些調查禁止調查第四個呢就是如果發現違法如何做最公平的處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7518.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7538.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
第五個呢當然還有一個叫做宣傳你要有熱誠去宣導我們的公交法其他我就不說好那這很重要那因此呢我要浪上講一下因此我覺得做一個公平會委員最少要把持三三也就三成三九個條件第一個條件的三呢我覺得非常重要叫心才德啊他第一要有熱誠 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7539.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7556.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
當我們不管是誰name這些人第一個他的熱忱要絕對足夠第二個呢他必須要有足夠的專業也就是才啦才那第三個呢他必須要公正就是道德所以新才德是為官為事甚至做任何事情的最基礎的三所以我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7556.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7571.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這三樣東西必須要把關當然最後呢我再分析一下我剛剛所認知的這個所謂的這個三流三序一新的這個人我的看法再來第二個三呢我覺得他很重要第一個一定要入世因為我看了一下他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7572.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7572.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
委員會主任委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7598.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7598.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
移民移民 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7620.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7644.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
因為我剛也去看了一下這個整個公聽會裡面的執掌他有193個人員有8個約聘總共201個那這201個裡面當然我們看到了他比較有趣的我看了他一下分佈圖裡面有經濟商學的45%然後法律被減19%然後法律跟經濟叫財經財經法的有4%那最後有MIS就是資金管理有3% |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7645.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7665.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
當然還有一些叫阿惹叫跟教育啊跟工程有關的29%那這個組成我覺得非常的棒為什麼呢裡面最重的就是所謂的第一個叫Business這個Economist叫經濟商學因為這是一個經濟商學活動再來就結合了所謂的法律他不要太多19%我覺得剛剛好這個我非常的欣賞這第一部分就他的人員結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7666.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7682.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
當然我的教育部分我也看了一下那博士不需要太多2%嘛但是Master說實很容易就一半以上51%當然這個我這個東西不可置疑我覺得他是一個還不錯的組織那麼再來呢他的裡面呢當然我就這個時間關我就講快第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7683.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7703.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
第二、三、六、四還要引領因為他的這個職長我覺得帶領的人他一定我們最近也發生了一些所謂的大家知道上對下的一些不好的行為這些引領就是你要怎麼去和善親和力跟下面的處得好因為上面背景什麼都不重要他只要做好管理是下面人的專業要夠我看這個主政是很好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7703.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7703.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7721.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7739.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
對於三個山我覺得非常重要我是先講一下我覺得認為要認識人的條件第三個就叫宏觀、前瞻還有智慧我們知道世界一直在變化那川普上來有很多的變化我昨天其實回來以後一下來就到了這個去這個一個經濟會去做了演講講川普未來的川普2.0 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7741.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7766.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
講了非常多也跟這個世界將來可能的變化做一些我自己的一些勾畫一些插門推演不過重點我要講的是宏觀就是因為我們要知道世界在變我們剛才有講到數位我們現在走上數位平台的消費像我們最近的這個所謂的UberEats和UberPanda的併購案它也是一個世界的變化所以你一定要宏觀了解世界的趨勢怎麼走要不是疫情當我相信這個所謂的外交平台也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7766.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7766.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
我是不是還有兩分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7782.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7807.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
時間一分鐘好那第三個我覺得要運用智慧因為在這裡面我們要這個是一個普民的普惠的東西剛才我們這個楊立委有講到那不管怎麼說你一定要這個勇於以民為本啊那就是要普惠大眾所以我覺得非常重要因此我最後要講究新才德也好入世淫女或者是這個童理性也好或者最後講的宏觀前瞻智慧也好最後我就就拉上起來就是這些人一定要做到所謂的認真 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7809.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7829.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
認真、善盡職守不可怠慢拖延非為己司己立我們當然最怕是為勢力當到一定的職位最後是要勇於以民為本時間的關係我就必須再講一下那第二個個體經濟學的條件第一個叫Fairness我剛剛講公平其實你去翻經濟學個體經濟的第一章就是這兩個字不用讀別的 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7830.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7856.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
各級經濟學第一章當然他一開始講說社會資源是有限的啦就是scarcity然後你要怎麼樣去做最好的choice這是最基礎兩個然後講各級經濟學就叫什麼叫efficiency好再給我一分鐘efficiency我覺得非常重要那我只能這樣強調一下這四個委員那剛才其實我沒有想去查他們背景結果剛好我們的黃立委呢這裡有拉上起來那個很厚的一本在他的36頁我有看到這八個委員裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7856.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7874.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
有七個只有一個是經濟背景其他都法律背景那我就會很擔心因為完全以法我其實很擔心法來束縛人民我覺得法非常重要其實需不需要這麼多人來去喬這個法我覺得不一定但我倒覺得經濟人非常重要為什麼這裡面跟經濟活動非常非常有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7875.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7892.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我跟各位講 剛才的馬拉普里或阿里嘎普里一樣寡占市場也非常需要公平的處理因為不管是不是聯合壟斷等等的都非常重要甚至連關愛買、加勒福安去拆價拆量他們之前有沒有用所謂的什麼這個情志在對方做的時候來一些違法這些經濟的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7894.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7916.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
是非常重要的還有更嚴重的叫做完全性競爭市場是看起來是一個完全競爭市場完全競爭但它是一個不完全的獨佔市場大家知道嗎?這叫Moleculistic Competition所以我最後講的Efficiency就用最後這樣我來end up我的話語好了時間實在是很短我不知道我一下子還雖然把時間用完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7917.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7945.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
那我現在要強調就是這個雖然我剛看了一下新聞這個李美主委呢她講到這次烏噴打還有這個Uber Eats的問題啊那麼他們從5月14號就開始宣布申請在這個公平網站這個申請網站公平網站去宣布那最後呢在11月15號她回答了一句話說這個法律條件可能最快30天最後還會延60天一直到明年3月我這裡有一個心理的疑問Why?為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7945.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7971.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
因為我覺得efficiency叫效率那效率當然另外一次是叫積極aggressive我覺得如果你做這樣的委員你不積極效率的話如何去做好你所謂的公平交易呢所以我最後再強調一下因為時間的關係我有兩個這邊的最後的重點第一個 個體經濟學裡面非常強調兩件事第一個 fairness 這裡公聽會就是做這個第一個 efficiency我有發覺他們的積極效率可能不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7972.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7996.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
這個當然就會聯想到我剛講的會不會就是所謂代呼職守的想法但我希望你能夠積極積極再積極因為這跟人民有關很多東西不能拖我跟各位報告一下矽谷訂了一個非常重要的什麼叫AI法他為什麼要訂AI法AI專利法就是因為在矽谷這個地方如果你不告訴你現在法律訴訟現在就訂案的話他可能去訴訟拖了5年9年整個GPT整個人腦就改變了 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7997.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7997.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8015.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8016.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
王淑美教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8032.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8053.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
主席、各位與會來賓大家好我是台大生產系的王淑美那針對今天的提名審查我大概有兩大項的意見跟建議第一個部分是關於所有提名人他們的資料呈現那我認為除了目前有相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8055.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8079.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
目前現有的一個陳述的方式我認為應該要加上績效評估的部分所謂績效的評估是我們期待我們這些委員在任內在他的任期當中能夠執行幾件事情第一個是他當初被提名時他自己所提出來的一些相關的政策政見在他們就職的期間內 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8080.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8105.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
是否可以達成那我希望做一個績效評估的一個呈現讓我們了解他們在這段時間裡面是否如他們所言的達到他將要做到的這些事情那第二個部分呢要呈現的應該是他針對在任期內所有因為時事所產生的一些事件以及對應的一個成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8105.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8105.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8135.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8152.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
這是第一個部分第二個部分則是針對整個政策未來發展方向應該要注意的我個人認為最重要的應該要正是AI參與我們立法還有整個消費環境的共同參與的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8153.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8178.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
那我想前面有很多的委員都已經提到了數位經濟、大數據或者是AI參與但是我想有絕大多數的人提出的都是學術的理論的部分可以給我們那個行政單位參考的東西相對是比較薄弱的我在這裡所要提出的則是比較具體可以提供各位做立即可以遵從的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8179.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8205.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
就是關於AI參與的部分有多個我們要關注的部分我這裡特別強調的應該是在AI參與的時候倫理還有風險必須是被我們所注重的以及這些我們關係的倫理和風險我們可以用什麼樣的方式來處理這邊我建議我們公聽會這邊可以參考的應該會是歐盟對於AI使用的倫理準則 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8206.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8230.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那歐盟對於AI使用的倫理準則擴張的包括民間如何使用AI作為相關的消費的分析還有推波第二個部分呢也對於我們政府機關如果引用了AI作為我們執法的配套工具的時候我們應該要怎麼樣的注重那我這邊就跟大家做幾項分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8230.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8250.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
第一個部分就是歐盟建議我們AI在使用的時候在倫理的準則上應該有三個要件第一個是合法也就是我們資訊的取得必須是合法的那第二個部分是我們資訊的判準必須要符合倫理倫理是非常因時因地質疑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8251.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8275.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那這個部分呢也就是我們公聽會非常需要深入的無論是它資料取得的合法性或者是它邏輯計算的符合倫理性那最後則是健全的一個AI使用的環境所以配套AI使用的一些使用的準則、法規、範圍也都是我們未來在執法的時候或立法的時候應該要悟切 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8276.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8287.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
又非常務實的來明定這個部分引領大家走向一個比較正確讓AI協助我們有更好生活的一個領域那再來呢有四個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8289.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8311.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
歐盟注意的第一個AI使用的原則就是公平這是我們公平會必須要充分使用的這個公平包括了幾個部分第一個是資料取得的公平以及演算的過程當中價值的公平性所以這也就配合了下面另外幾個部分就是可解釋性目前所有的AI平臺面臨最大國際間 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8313.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8341.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
質疑的部分就是他的知識圖譜還有他演算的公式不公開這造成了這個黑箱作業所做成的最後的判準所做成最後的一個結果的建議是讓我們疑惑的我們很多人都只有使用卻不曉得後面的邏輯其實這不可知道黑箱的這個判準的邏輯就會造成社會真正的不公平而且這個不公平會隨著我們對AI的依賴日升而加重 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8342.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8352.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那在加重的過程當中如果我們後續才去追蹤的時候傷害就已經造成了所以公聽會在這個部分無論是我們今天被提名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8353.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8380.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這些人選或者是整個公聽會未來在執行的過程當中這個部分的投入對於AI的關注倫理還有規範的部分除了我們要關注最重要的是要加重將相關的一些專業人才無論是投入或者是本身素質的提升然後務使AI成為我們幫助我們生活的更好的工具而不是讓我們人類變成AI的奴隸 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8382.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8403.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
最後會有幾項具體的要求包括使用AI的這些單位他們必須是要能夠公開他們的程式還有知識圖譜並且堅守外在人為無論是倫理或者是事法性的一些監督最後是 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8403.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8428.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
在採取大數據還有一些資訊的時候這些隱私還有資料的處理它背後最深層的一些邏輯都是我們必須要在乎的那透過以上我的這些建議希望我們在未來我們是一個前進的而且是使用AI而不是被AI使用的一個組織和環境那以上是我的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8431.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8436.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好 謝謝臺大生物產業發展研究所 黃素美教授發言來好 下一位請黃國昌發言時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8454.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8474.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
非常感謝今天與會所有的學者專家對於這一次本院在審查公平交易委員會的委員同意權的形式提出了非常多寶貴的建議公聽會的這個單位長時間以來雖然在社會上面所得到的關注並沒有非常的高但是實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8475.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8495.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
它對於整個不僅僅是市場的經濟甚至是消費者權益的保護至關重大那因此怎麼樣可以找出優秀的人才在公平交易法的立法規範議職當中去促進消費者的權益實現公共利益這個是我們在這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8495.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8512.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
人事統一權審查的過程當中的重中之重必須要注意的事項那為什麼我會對公平交易委員會的委員在統一權的形式上面會有這麼高的關注我想用一個具體的例子來加以說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8513.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8538.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
2018年我第一次擔任立委的時候我在經濟委員會質詢我揭發了東洋製藥壟斷大腸癌的用藥控制藥品的價格那不僅僅造成了我國健保在這個用藥上面不當高金額的支付那同時也侵害了非常多病患的權益那個時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8539.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8566.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
我針對這件事情提出質詢而且公開的檢舉之後我們東洋製藥發出了一個聲明說我在這邊質詢的是假訊息他們的大廠來用藥沒有違反公平交易法這個是在2018年的時候公開在經濟委員會裡面所提出來的質詢那後續東洋製藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8569.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8592.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
不管他找誰去當了門神不管他對於哪些政治人物有政治獻金的捐贖一個專業獨立的公平會他應該要發揮的功能就是什麼他應該要發揮的功能就是站在維持市場秩序站在保障消費者權益的立場執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8595.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8604.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那雖然老實講以處理的時效上面來講拖了算非常的久拖了兩年半我們的公聽會處分東陽製藥財罰兩億兩千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8609.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8636.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
另外一家跟東洋製藥進行聯合行為的美食公司遭罰了6500萬元從公平交易委員會事後裁罰的結果可以清楚地看得出來當初在這邊質詢的時候所做的檢舉絕對是有理有據而我們的東洋製藥或許因為政商關係背後非常的雄厚 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8637.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8657.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
當初發了新聞稿對社會散播的假訊息到今天為止沒有任何一句的道歉也沒有任何一句的認錯這是為什麼一個專業、獨立、扛得起政治壓力不管東洋製藥找誰去當門神都一樣必須要捍衛市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8663.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8684.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
競爭秩序必須要捍衛消費者保護權益非常重要的部分我也期待下一屆的公平交易委員會下一屆的公平交易委員會可以扛得起壓力繼續的去捍衛整個消費者的權益因為接下來在行政訴訟的過程當中東陽製藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8687.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8712.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
不斷的希望我們的公平交易委員會能夠透過跟他們私下和解的方式來處理這個案子那我們這一屆公平委員如果通過了同意權的行使是不是會繼續的捍衛公共利益是不是會繼續的站在保障消費者的權利去堅守公平交易委員會應該要用專業獨立的立場來 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8716.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8733.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
捍衛自己本身所做的行政處分而不會私下跟這些大財團、大藥廠甚至有政治背景在當門神的公司私下就把這件事情給和諧過去了也是我們接下來在立法院裡面會監督的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8734.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8750.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
再次感謝今天所有的專家學者對於我們委員會所提出來的寶貴建議你們所提出來的寶貴建議都會成為我們接下來在行使人事同意權的時候重要的參考再次的感謝各位 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8757.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8782.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
今天這個有很多專家學者八點多就到了謝謝你們這個為了這個審查提供很多寶貴的意見各位寶貴的意見我想會作為我們一定是30號會開審查會30號之前各位學者專家的寶貴意見我們都會把它很詳細地彙整起來給所有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8784.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8785.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
全院委員參考 |