| IVOD_ID |
16359 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16359 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-11 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-11T08:30:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-11T18:17:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
09:46:44 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609ca945d2dd6e45b99445fc32f41448fc078081dad70f87c460def8933d49b55895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-11T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第2次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名張文貞、姚立明、何賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳、廖福特、劉靜怡7位為司法院大法官，並以張文貞為院長、姚立明為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:16 - 18:17:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1730.208 |
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1752.396 |
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法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1756.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1777.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
法定人數不足法定人數不足法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1844.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1870.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
報告全院委員會現在繼續開會今天分別審查司法院大法官被提名人和賴傑、陳運財、王碧芳之資格及是否事任相關事項分別由每位被提名人說明10分鐘後再進行委員詢問每位委員詢答時間20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員如不在場視為棄權現在先 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1874.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1903.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
審查被提名人何賴傑之資格相關事項請被提名人何賴傑先生說明時間為10分鐘主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1904.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1931.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
今天很榮幸有這個機會來到大院就大法官的提名審查為簡單的口頭報告我是大法官、被提名人何賴傑現職是國立政治大學法律學系教授研究的專長領域是刑事訴訟法我民國49年出生於基隆市67年進入台灣大學法律系法學組就讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1932.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1955.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
民國75年進入臺灣大學法律學系碩士班民商法組就讀．同年通過律師高等考試及格．因為我對刑事法有高度的學習興趣．因而在研究所期間跟隨蔡敦敏老師．從事刑事法的學習跟學位論文的寫作． |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1956.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1969.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
其間我以奧地利政府獎學金學生的身份到維也納大學學習一年回國之後第二年民國80年取得臺灣大學法學碩士的學位 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1970.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1993.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
第二年4月到德國杜賓根大學公讀法學博士學位1998年8月通過博士學位論文口試獲得法學博士的學位當年很順利的進入到國立中正大學法律系擔任助理教授開始刑事訴訟法的研究跟教學的生涯 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1994.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2005.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
2000年到國立政治大學法律學系繼續擔任助理教授此後就長期從事刑事訴訟法的研究跟教學到現在已經26年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2008.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2024.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
其間我曾兼任政治大學法律系的系主任．法學院院長、政大主任秘書等大學的行政職務．也曾擔任民間社團．例如臺灣法學會的理事、監事及理事長． |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2026.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2052.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
從事行政工作．讓我深刻的瞭解到．行政事務涉及的層面．非常的深而且非常的廣．並且直接影響到相關當事人的權益．處理的方式要有很周全的考慮．手段要細膩．心態上要有同理心．而這些跟我原本的學術工作者．所面臨的情況非常的不一樣． |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2054.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2059.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我回國任教的第二年剛好1999年全國司法改革會議召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2061.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2090.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
在這個會議中做出了很多重大的結論其中涉及刑事訴訟法改革者也不在少數此後司法院也陸續提出了好幾波刑事訴訟法的改革草案大多數也獲得大院的支持而成為現行法的版本之後2016年司法改革國事會議也有多項內容涉及到刑事訴訟法的改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2091.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2106.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這幾波司法改革．對台灣刑事訴訟法制的現代化．產生了非常深遠的影響．由於我在德國首學的就是刑事訴訟法學．因而處在這幾波司法改革的浪潮下． |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2107.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2135.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
無論是立法政策．法律修訂．司法的解釋．判決的研究等．無論是在立法院．司法院．監察院．最高法院．及法務部．本人在不同的程度內也都有所參與．即使在憲法法庭．關於刑事法官．迴避規定的法規範憲法審查．本人也曾經以專家學者的身份．提供諮詢的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2137.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2157.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我在德國攻讀博士學位的期間深深地感受到德國法律學的發展跟進步跟德國社會對司法的信賴跟尊重有著正相關聯的緊密關係這也是德國的司法能夠發揮穩定社會功能的主要原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2158.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2186.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
而司法必須與時俱進．隨著社會發展而為調整．尤其是在現代詭譎多變的國際以及歐盟的局勢下．德國一方面又要保有既有的法治傳統．一方面又要針對日益多元發展的社會而為調整．非常的不容易．但德國法律人都認為這個是法律人必須面對的．而且是者無旁貸的一個挑戰． |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2188.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2207.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
基於我對《刑事訴訟法》多年的研究跟學習的心得本人始終認為自由、民主、人權與法治這個是現代憲政國家的基石也是主導跟支配司法改革最重要的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2209.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2238.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
尤其是在從專制獨裁體制政權逐漸要轉型為自由民主體制的台灣這一點更為重要因為司法改革不應該停留在表面的形式的法治改革更應該著重在實質價值理念的深化以及遞變而這一些價值的選現最為具象化的表徵就是在作為國家根本大法的憲法的解釋跟適用上 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2239.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2267.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
司法院大法官執司憲法的解釋跟憲法的審判權這個是司法權的核心機能之一由大法官組成的憲法法庭不僅可以做抽象法規範的憲法審查而且針對確定的終極判決亦得為憲法審查就憲政秩序的維護憲法法庭比其他任何憲法機關更為重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2268.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2285.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
尤其是確定的終局裁判．涉及到人民的權利．對民眾的權益保障．更有直接的影響．更需要憲法法庭．透過憲法審查．予以確保法院裁判的合憲性施法不章． |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2287.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2313.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
法制不存．法制必須以司法為基石．憲法法庭若無法維護自由民主憲政秩序．法制必然蕩然不存．司法院大法官必須以自由民主憲政秩序的建前與發展為念．為台灣奠立更堅實的法治國基礎．謝謝各位也請各位不吝指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2320.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2325.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
謝謝河北提名人之說明現在進行委員詢問首先請紅委員孟凱詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2353.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2357.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主席謝謝麻煩請何備提名人我們請何備提名人答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2373.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2392.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
合佩提名委員早安喔剛剛本席特別聆聽您的自傳我也深深的閱讀了您的自傳我想首先針對大法官的提名的部分既然送到國會來做審查某種程度上也有一定的民意基礎因為國會要過半數的一個同意才使得任命之嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2393.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2406.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你有沒有看到在這次的大法官提名名單裡面﹖居然社會共識有高達6成7的民眾不同意主張廢死的大法官﹖甚至有8成的民意對於大法官實質廢死的判決﹖不同﹖不贊同你有看到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2408.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2409.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2435.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2452.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
對於廢死的部分嗎?還是對於部分被提名人事任性的問題?都有大法官的部分在這次的名單裡面其實普遍來講跟過往幾次大法官提名最大的不同就是在這一次大法官的名單裡面民意的接受度其實是不高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2454.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2467.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我所了解就是因為7位被提名人其實各有專長：而且不同的背景所以一般來說所以各有仇恨值,仇恨值高低,不一定集中在您身上,是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2468.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2486.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我的認為就是民意的基礎到底針對這7位被提名的人是不是全部他們認為都不適格還是有個別的針對不同的人有不同的看法等等這一點我認為可能不是那麼確定所以你認為這6成7不是針對你來 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2488.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2508.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
呃,我認為應該不是。好,你的自傳裡面特別提到兩次的全國司改會議是你蠻自豪的一個地方你花了蠻大篇幅的地方在寫但是你有沒有注意到有八成的民眾在2016年的這次國是司改會議其實是不了解其中的內容並且也不滿意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2509.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2511.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我個人的看法尤其是我的專業的領域形式訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2533.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2543.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
刑事訴訟法其實法院的判決直接的對民眾的權益甚至民眾對司法的信賴確實有很大的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2544.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2568.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那當然我認為我們的刑事司法改革到目前為止其實還有包括1998、2016年這兩次的會議結論其實到現在還有一些繼續還在實施﹖沒有做到的地方﹖對還沒有做到的地方所以8年過去了司法改革到現在來講還有很多沒有做到的地方那司法改革在玩真的玩假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2569.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2591.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我認為司法改革在當年這兩次的討論的時候是不是民眾能夠深切的感受到到底司法改革要做什麼?要幾年才有辦法達成?發誠的民意是完全不了解2016年的司法改革到底改了什麼的那你現在剛剛親口也承認了就是其實民眾也不知道司法改革在改什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2592.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2617.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
至少有一點國人怎麼對政府有所信賴至少有一點我可以很明確的講就是其實在現在的國民法官法就是國民參與審判這一塊其實那個是在2016年之後才正式實施的那在這個國民法官法之前其實在司法院已經討論了非常的久但也許有一些考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2618.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2636.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
但這一個國民法官法其實是在2016年之後才真正的下定決心要把它落實但是這個2016年之後的國民法官法跟當時民進黨在野主張完全是閹割的版本根本不是當時在野時候的版本要談國民法官法等一下我們再來談再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2639.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2657.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
不滿意大法官的人選其中很重要就是所謂的廢除死刑台灣社會的共識、歷次的民調十年來都是高達八成以上的民眾是反對廢除死刑為什麼?就是認為說台灣目前可能沒有實質廢死的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2658.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2685.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
但是在今年9月20號的憲判第8號的判決認為實行合憲但是八道生子門的關卡形同實質廢食其中最嚴重的犯罪標準到底誰來定義貝提名人要不要說一下最嚴重的犯罪就您過去專精法學相關素養來講最嚴重的犯罪怎麼樣才算是最嚴重的犯罪未來法官要怎麼樣判定 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2686.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2711.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
對於今年憲判八的這個死刑判決：其實大法官並沒有廢除死刑：也就是說他認為死刑這個制度還是最嚴重犯罪：最嚴重犯刑：隨機殺人算不算：所以在大法官的判決裡面：其實對於最嚴重的所謂的犯罪情節：其實他有稍微的提示：隨機殺人算不算：隨機殺一人算不算： |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2714.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2725.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
在大法官裏面槍害被害人．導致被害人致死．大量流血死亡、粉碎性骨折．並且還做性侵．強盜算不算 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2727.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2750.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這一個必須要由各案的法官按照各案的情節認定但是如果法官看這個他也不敢說那不就是把這些認定全部都變成是各案認定而這一次的判決裡面最重要就是從一審二審到最高審都要所有職業法官一致的認定那不就變成是限縮了這些判決空間嗎再者本席剛剛直球對決請教您喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2752.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2762.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
當這些慘絕人寰的事件、犯行發生的時候難道都不算最嚴重的犯行?這些不算最嚴重的犯行,什麼才算最嚴重的犯行? |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2763.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2793.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
老師說我必須這樣講這一個必須要在個案裡面才能判斷所謂的犯罪情節嚴重到底到什麼情況但他談到的是最嚴重最嚴重我認為你有沒有一個標準在你心裡有沒有最一個標準或是一把指認為達到什麼樣的程度叫做最嚴重因為如果說你沒有辦法量化的話你怎麼樣有辦法讓所有全國的法官都知道什麼樣的一個判決才能夠判處死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2793.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2797.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
否則的話就會變成是走向國人懷疑的你實質走向廢死嗎這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2800.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2801.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
來 我們來看一段影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2833.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2852.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
2014年12月3號．一位得過師奪獎的女教師．一位尊賢、無差別的、隨機的．拿籃頭、敲打、毆打、性侵、自死．把她的屍體藏在她的轎車裡面． |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2855.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2856.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
被提名的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2879.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2906.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
您的自傳裡面您的書面回答裡面針對廢死這個議題我先給予肯定你有回答你不是交白卷但是你回答得非常空泛你講的是說從人民權利保障的角度意圖消滅少數人所堅持的正當價值時司法基於保障少數人基於憲法所應享有的權利必須發揮司法保護的功能對不對對沒錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2907.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2926.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
在這個狀況下,少數是誰啊?小數其實是被害者的家屬欸被害者的家屬他相對來講他是弱勢當加害者他可以有三位辯護律師當加害者他想許律師可以多請的時候被害者卻只有一位義務律師來幫他辯護 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2929.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2952.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我認為死刑的問題跟保護被害人隨機殺人是同一個層級的問題當隨機殺人是算什麼正當價值當攻擊性侵拿凶器隨機殺人殘害一位女教師跟他毫無淵源毫無瓜葛毫無恩怨算什麼正當價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2954.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2974.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我在這裡談的所謂被告的權利不是他被告殺人他是有他的正當價值而是做一個被告不管他即使是怎麼樣的十惡不赦在憲法的層次上他還是一個主體他還是要受到應該有的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2975.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2991.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個保障到什麼程度?讓他保障到一審、二審、三審有律師來協助,這樣子還不算保障?有一審、二審、最高審,我們用完整嚴謹的法律制度還不算保障? |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2992.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3014.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
但是當這一次的判決出來之後發覺是說連這樣的一個凶殘惡極的人都可以逃過死刑的判決的時候我們不禁要問為什麼我們台灣的司法永遠都是在保護加害者而不是保護被害者被害者的公平正義到底在哪裡所以有人講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3014.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3043.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所以如果說今天這樣的一個事情發生在是法官的家屬身上的話我們不知道說法官是不是還可以義正嚴實的講出要保護被告這句話對我的我為什麼會用我的時間放這影片給您看就是因為我希望每一位不管是大法官不管是法官不管是我們中華民國執法人員都應該要感同身受當被害者已經遭受到最殘忍的一個悲劇的時候那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3044.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3052.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
孤注無援只希望社會能夠給予最後基本正義但是卻不可得的時候的那種悲痛 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3055.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3081.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
對我來講,刑事訴訟法．到底對於被告的權利要怎麼保障．跟對於被害人的權利要怎麼保障．這兩個應該要等同去看．也就是說,從來的傳統的刑事訴訟法．其實都是以被告的權利保障為合計．到目前為止我們的被提名人都還是持續強調．加害者的人權很重要． |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3082.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3095.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
被害者的人權也很重要就是因為被害者的人權很重要所以我們才需要你好好的重視來再來我們請被提名的人再來討論最近啊很多昨天院長副院長也有被 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3097.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3125.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
詢問過就是南韓在這一次無預警的頒布緊急戒嚴令但幾個小時之後被國會推翻了那南韓的憲法專家就普遍認為說以席月宣布戒嚴存在的違憲之嫌所以足以構成彈劾的理由那如果說在現在台灣其實我們中華民國面臨一樣的狀況如果說真的有彈劾案的發生的話有可能就是會有國會這邊交由大法官來做最後的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3126.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3146.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
財帝那請教如果說您是面臨到現在這樣的一個狀況就以南韓總統這樣的一個例子當南韓總統他認為國會他用一個莫須有的罪名把國會在野黨的多數直接指控是親北韓勢力那宣布戒嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3146.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3157.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
那不到幾個小時之後被國會推翻那現在南韓國會也要提出這個彈劾案如果您是大法官的話您在審理這樣的一個案件您會做出什麼樣的一個選擇要彈劾這位總統還是不彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3160.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3173.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
這一個個案的問題必須要在個案的情節、個案的狀況下去討論也就是說韓國的政治的情況跟台灣的政治情況是不一樣所以大法官被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3177.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3205.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
當一個手握權力的人他可以用莫須有的罪名直接指控代表民意的國會並且指控多數的國會議員講說他是親北韓勢力直接潑髒水在這些國會議員身上並且就宣布了戒嚴那這個戒嚴有沒有正當性南韓的民眾用後續的行動已經清楚明白的證實了他的正當性是0因為不到6個小時戒嚴就變解嚴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3206.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3227.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
那現在他們國會要討論彈劾嘛那一樣的道理啊我國的彈劾案的提案其實是要由全體立法委員提出並且三分之二的委員同意之後向司法院大法官提出彈劾案嘛那大法官在接受到這彈劾案的話會怎麼樣處理你如果說認為一個執政者 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3228.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3241.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
莫須有的罪名沒有任何的理由只是因為不中聽的聲音只是因為國會一直在阻擋人事案阻擋預算以及監督合理的監督跟審查你就提出了戒嚴這樣子有道理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3242.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3271.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
如果以韓國這樣的例子來看我基本上認為韓國這樣的一個宣布居然確實可能他的正當性會有問題正當性有問題在台灣的情況那是不是能夠跟韓國的政治用同樣的這樣的方式去看我認為未必畢竟我們的民主現在的或者是法治的基礎其實已經穩固了很多我們的民主比較強我們的法治比較強 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3273.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3299.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
對來那你怎麼看在執政黨的黨團在不到幾分鐘的時間看到南韓宣布戒嚴馬上不管是間諜興起也好不管是展露出本性也好就寫說他們希望有一個貼文是挺戒嚴並且他們講是說南韓他附和南韓總統的話說南韓國會已經被親北韓勢力給把持了所以戒嚴然後這個貼文 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3301.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3308.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
不到幾分鐘不到幾個小時被刪除但到目前為止我們的執政黨沒有任何一句道歉你怎麼看這樣挺戒嚴的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3309.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3326.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我想對於這個個案尤其是在目前這樣的一個情況下到底執政黨內部到底是怎麼樣去看甚而他的小編到底做了什麼等等我認為從執政黨的官方臉書帳號發出來這還不算是執政黨的意思嗎這我不能講說這個是執政黨的保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3333.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3361.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
但是我想請教你自始至終認為民主、自由、人權、法治是法治國的基石所以我們國家能夠存在挺戒嚴的思想嗎?如果以我個人來看當然不能夠再戒嚴而且也不能有這種戒嚴的想法因為時代不同所以我們跟韓國不同那韓國目前為止挺戒嚴的思想出來了沒有任何一句道歉、船過水無痕你可以接受嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3362.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3363.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
好,大法官提名了 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3381.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3407.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
在司法院組織法第4條裡面有規定大法官的資格那其中也有講到說任何資格的大法官人數不超過總名額的三分之一嘛對不對那在這一次賴清德總統所提名的5位包括您喔其實是教授資格那如果說再加上現任的謝明陽、蔡忠貞跟陳忠武等人其實已經超過三分之一了教授的名額的資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3408.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3434.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那這樣子未來在運作上面會不會產生人選配置不均的狀況我所理解的就是我們這一次7位被提名人其實是適用不同的那一個款但主要還是以教授資格那當然教授資格我知道那基本上是有這樣就是一開始就明顯違反相關的規定那這一個以我個人來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3435.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3451.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
我是一個以這一個教授資格所以你是教授資格沒關係但其他人是不是教授資格我不知道這一點我確實老實講我不是對這個那麼清楚也就是說這幾個人在到底在資格上是什麼認定您自己的自傳開宗明義 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3453.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3474.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
強調你的專長行事訴訟法這在自傳裡面白紙黑字寫的那這一次賴清德總統也提名另外一位行事訴訟法專家就是接下來的陳運財兩位都是行事訴訟法專家開宗明義都講你們兩個自傳大篇幅在講你們在行事訴訟法的專業跟貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3475.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3490.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
本席對於我們過去的專業跟貢獻沒有意見但一樣的道理如果說現在都是兩位都是刑事訴訟法兩位都是教授的話那其實某種程度上是限縮那如果說到最後兩位只能通過一位的話你認為誰的資格比較符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3492.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3516.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個對於個別的被提名人的事任性這個我不予評論但我可以這樣講也就是說在過去這三年憲法法庭所處理的這些案件以及最後做出來的這一個判決其實大概是有將近有三分之一多一點其實都涉及到刑事法 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3516.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3537.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以即便是資格重複了、專長重複了我認為我跟另外一個陳備提名人雖然我們都是刑事訴訟法的專業但我們的留學國別我們對刑事訴訟法的理解我們對刑事訴訟法的掌握還是不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3538.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3560.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
最後國會改革其實你的態度本身不意外因為你的態度其實已經很明顯了過去你曾經參與說國會改革違憲的一個連署那更不用說多項民調顯示民意其實不接受國會改革違憲的一個判決但本時要提當國會改革最重要精神其實是國會自主跟民意的監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3561.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3573.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
這一次的公務員的霸凌案事件其實很大一部分就來自於說當國會沒有調查權的時候當第一時間勞動部發生霸凌案事件的時候其實我們是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3595.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3601.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
好,謝謝洪委員,謝謝被提名的人下一位我們請黃珊珊委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3610.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3616.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
謝謝主席我想請何教授請何教授發言教授早我想剛剛洪孟凱委員已經問了很多有關死刑的問題那我想簡單的問您對死刑的看法因為您是刑事專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3640.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3641.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
所以你對這次的憲判制 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3669.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3696.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
憲法法院的判決你的立場是完全支持還是部分支持還是有不同意見我認為這一個憲判8號的這個判決基本上他沒有把死刑完全都認為說這個就是違憲他只是要把這個要件所以他是認為死刑有條件違憲但是要符合很多的要件所以好教授我們就來討論一下我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3697.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3726.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
重點是憲法法院的判決將來影響的是整個立法的層次最重要的是司法到底要積極的來參與所謂的立法還是要尊重立法形成的自由這是我想跟您探討主要就是中華民國開國以來相關的憲法解釋大部分會做的幾個東西第一個是如果要違憲宣告會做定期失效或立刻失效甚至限期修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3727.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3751.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
但是很少用解釋取代立法也就是說最新法定主義必須要相關的構成要件該當構成要件明確但是刑事訴訟法針對法院裁量的自由有一定的所謂尊重跟所謂的自由行政對吧對但這一次我們就講很簡單的2002年那時候的通姦罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3756.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3777.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
大法官解釋認為應該要尊重立法機關的斟酌18年後的2020年791號解釋認為通姦罪違憲也就是我們的憲法法庭也與時俱進從後解釋推翻了前面的解釋這是一個憲法法庭他自己做了不同解釋的狀況但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3780.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3806.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
但是這是一個後解釋推翻前解釋所以解釋是可以被推翻的吧也就是說這是一個曾經自己解釋過自己推翻的案子第二個同婚同婚的解釋在748號認為說中華民國的法律裡面如果沒有給予同婚相關的規範就直接適用民法甚至 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3807.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3830.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
你兩年之內不修法就沒有別的解釋就是我的解釋就代替立法第三個就是這一次的113年的憲判8號死刑是不是違憲?不違憲但是死刑的判決要增加了幾乎八九個世界級困難度高的要件所以我想問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3831.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3849.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
身為學者你剛說你反對死刑這個我覺得是個人價值判斷但是我們用解釋取代立法你認為這在憲法法院或者是全世界的立法例上有這樣的方法嗎解釋代替立法侵犯的是立法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3851.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3878.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
對於憲法法庭或者是過去的大法官解釋其實他們在具體解釋的時候當然每一個階段他會有每一個階段不同的考量院長我只講一個剛剛講的立法形成自由是憲法法庭要尊重的所以現在是立法權如果我們今天要判這麼多您是刑事訴訟法的專家如果這麼多的要件是不是應該規範在刑事訴訟法裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3879.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3904.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
是不是應該用修法的方式來把剛剛講的大法官解釋那麼多的要件修到我們的刑事訴訟法而不是用解釋取代立法這才是我今天要說的是如果您是大法官您接受這樣的方式嗎而不是你獻旗說我要怎麼修從英國、紐西蘭、澳洲、新加坡甚至認為憲法解釋不可以侵害立法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3905.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3916.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
另外日本認為．國會只能要求行政機關去修法．國會不能強加所謂的立法內容給國會．你的意見呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3917.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3935.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我覺得這一次憲法法庭在做這一個判決的時候其實我的他的我認為他們的用意其實是在對於死刑的合憲性給予一個他想要找另外一個理由實質廢死但是我要講說我們今天講的是法律人我們站在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3936.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3964.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這些要件是不是應該修到刑事訴訟法裡面當然我認為最根本的還是以法因為立法者透過實定法你才有辦法所以我現在要問您的是您要當大法官還是要當大立法官?您要當的是大法官還是要當立法官?當然那是大法官被提名人當然是以大法官的職位做為未來的官角你認為應該要尊重立法形成自由這樣的權限吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3964.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3989.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
尊重但他應該會有一個限度也就是說立法在針對某一些個別的情況下不能夠侵害立法權立法權你可以說他違反一些相關東西要求他限期修法但不可以把所謂的解釋代替立法這是我個人的立場我認為新任的大法官要有這樣的態度否則將來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3990.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4001.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
大法官就直接當立法委員就好啦不需要立法院啦因為立法院寫的任何法律大法官另外寫要件就可以了不需要任何進段法律這是國家非常非常嚴重的危機啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4002.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4026.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這最嚴重的事還侵害到司法院包括剛剛講的法官的裁量自由法官裁量自由就像您剛說要在各案裡面一一的認定不可以用一個要件要求我們所有的法官要所一致決的方式這在任何國家都不可能達到包括您留學的德國目前只有一個叫做美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4027.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4044.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
陪審團要一致決但他對不起那也不是最終判決我們現在是一二三審都要一致決這件事情已經侵害立法權第二個所有的要件沒有修到刑事訴訟程序裡面就不應該處理我要再問您的是如果您是大法官您會用後解釋推翻前解釋嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4046.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4073.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
呃目前以我個人的看法這一個必須要看將來是不是有這樣的一個案子進入到大法官大法官在面對這個案子的時候要看看這個案子有涉及的解釋那他真的是希望尊重立法權希望立法院要把相關的部分修正而不是解釋代替立法我希望聽到的是您的態度這個我可以接受好所以看得到許州立 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4074.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4076.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
基本上我對司法的功能我有我一定的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4095.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4114.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
我不認為司法在這種情況下應該要針對所謂國家憲政機關的權限大力的或者是過度的去介入也就是說也許在司法的這個功能上面到底是要用積極的方式或者消極的方式這個是可以討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4115.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4129.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以尊重立法精神自由尊重國會民意的基礎後解釋推翻前解釋如果前解釋有問題就像剛剛通姦罪的部分他是應該被修正的也就是說新的大法官要有新的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4130.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4156.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好接下來我想問一下何教授對於18歲公民權我看到您的報告裡面說您在1978年進入台大法律系18歲的時候我跟你都在念台大法律系所以你覺得18歲的年輕人有沒有行使選舉權的能力這個我支持18歲其實應該有公民權這個我是支持對但是現在的問題民法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4159.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4185.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
陳蓮已經修到18歲了但是憲法跟不上因為憲法必須要經過修憲那這個案子呢我想也是幾乎是臺灣立法院唯一高度共識的案件在2022年我們針對108票全票通過的18歲公民權但是只有564萬的公民投票低於所謂的半數962萬票覆決失敗所以修憲不成 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4189.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4203.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
修憲不成的原因是因為憲法修憲門檻太高這個修憲門檻您覺得以現在目前的台灣社會這樣的法案都不可能覆決成功你覺得台灣還有修憲的可能嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4204.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4219.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
如果以憲法增修條文12條所定的這麼高的這種門檻公民賦權的門檻我個人非常悲觀的認為也就是修憲這條路你認為那我們要怎麼樣去把這個門檻的問題解決這是我們現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4225.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4253.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
現在的政務次應該說政務委員林明熙叫政委他曾經在台大法律系的時候主張過一件事因為我們曾經發生過國大代表自肥案用修憲給自己很多的福利所以我們用憲法解釋宣告自肥案違憲也就是說修憲的人修了一個違反憲法原則的部分我們可以用解釋去 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4256.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4279.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
同樣的剛剛講你也認為這個門檻過高這是不是也是當年的國大代表做了一些奇怪的法案奇怪的決定造成了影響到公民行使投票權這樣子的憲法權利你了解我的意思嗎我知道也就是說如果這麼高的修憲門檻可不可以用釋憲來解釋它違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4283.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4306.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
是各教說說的不是我說的啊我知道我知道國內有一些憲法學者是覺得我們憲法增修條文第12條那個門檻高到了實際上根本很很不可能有修憲所以我要問的是您的態度是如果人民來申請你是大法官你會贊成用修憲用釋憲的方式把這個修憲門檻宣告他違憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4308.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4331.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
如果要這樣做：我的疑慮會是：如果你今天把這個12條違憲：國大代表自編案可以用釋憲來宣告違憲：接下來我們要怎麼做：來宣告這麼高的修憲門檻違憲：因為他侵害了人民國民行使所謂的公民權：這件事情主權在民的原則還有所謂的平等權： |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4332.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4345.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
18跟19歲的孩子跟20歲的人一樣是成年人了他的平等權也要被尊重所以我只要問您假如這個案子您成為大法官您贊不贊成用釋憲的方式宣告他違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4348.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4378.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4379.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4407.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
能夠有效率的修憲能不能在台灣試用這個老實講我還是有一些疑問畢竟我們跟其他國家的這個民主法治等等的這個基礎不見得完全一致所以教授我只問你你贊成這樣的方式嗎我必須明白的講我會保留這個意見我不會明白的講一定會贊成但是憲法門檻過高這是你的跟我一樣覺得這是不可能的任務了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4408.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4428.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
從我們現在到未來的甚至百年我看都不太可能發生這一點我支持我也認為這個修憲門檻太高這個事情也希望新的大法官能夠解決跟面對我想這是我們大家必須要去面對的事實憲法要與時俱進但是以現在的修憲門檻幾乎是做不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4429.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4456.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
只能靠著所謂的釋憲來解決未來的問題而且我認為最重要的不是只是在機關權限爭議或者光明覆決而且我們憲法的對於基本權利的保障的那一些權利清單太簡略了這個一定要再修憲才有辦法把它弄得更明確所以太簡略了我現在要問你幾個可能也是被簡略的東西自由組成家庭也是憲法保障的基本權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4457.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4481.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
有組成家庭裡面有幾個第一個我看到您也說司法要與時俱進接下去現在就是在德國也是您的母校卵子捐贈跟代孕雖然都被禁止但是德國政府正在檢討中因為很多德國人還是到海外去做所謂的代理孕母接下去我們的問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4483.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4507.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
今年5月份我們的衛福部有公告人工生殖法導入所謂的代理孕母還有所謂的軟金軟捐贈裡面講得非常清楚而且他當時還引用了憲法22條民眾享有結婚自由、自由組成家庭的權利憲法第7條權利不應該有差別而且要保障所謂的平等權這是一個非常進步的 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4509.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4532.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
但是在12月突然間宣告脫工不處理了我現在要問的是您的基本價值您覺得人民有沒有機會選擇他自己如何組成家庭人民能不能選擇我要不要有我的下一代這件事情是不是應該剛剛講的憲法應該保障的基本權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4533.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4540.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
賴清德總統曾經在立法委員的任內以前提出了代孕版的人工生殖法這個是在非常早他當立委的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4560.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4584.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
現在我要討論的是憲法第748號當時的同性婚姻認為中華民國的民法沒有給同性婚姻登記的機制所以這個違憲我現在問如果國家沒有提供代孕制度的程序是不是也會違憲我覺得代理義母這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4586.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4594.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我剛講沒有銀保沒有給你登記的機制違憲國家沒有給你代理育母的機制可能也會違反平等權 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4596.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4616.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
在同性婚姻這件事竟然已經被立法、被憲法已經明文承認了結果你去登記的時候只是因為行政規則、行政法不讓你登記所以你原來要同性結婚的這個制度沒有制度也可能違憲沒有代理義務也可能違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4618.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4628.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
是不是真的代理運母這件事情沒有立法：沒有保障：這件事情可能還要再討論但是人民連選擇的機會都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4631.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4659.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
如果我們要搞平等權他連至少要有選擇的機會他可以不選但是不等於他連選的機會都沒有我們現在問題是選的機會都沒有當然這有所謂的其他的倫理爭議但是我認為至少我們要面對這些人我們給他的很嚴格的要件限制甚至限制他的身份比如說就非常簡單的像陳昭志委員是沒有他的子宮發育的問題他不是不能不想用自己的子宮但是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4660.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4689.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
這才是要給他們機會選擇而不是一竿子打翻一船人因為有道德風險所以這些人就不用管同樣的剛剛講憲法要保障多數人但是也要照顧少數人沒錯接下來您當大法官之後可能會有非常多的案子尤其是立法院通過了很多法案可能都會被行政院說毀憲亂證送給大法官去釋憲從今年年初開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4690.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4719.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
送了國會改革的法案接下去我們通過任何法律他們都可能說要實現您可以看接下去這個有一個叫做國會我們不可以用預算案增加支出憲法70條對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出提議也就是不可以增加預算但是如果國會以法律增加了支出因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4720.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4728.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
以我對於財政劃分法的理解雖然那不是我的專業但我認為在財政的劃分在我們現在中央跟地方在涉及到這個財政支出到底要怎麼劃分 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4750.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4774.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
財政收支劃分法用立法來定就是授予立法機關這樣的權限而且才化法的第一條就是按照憲法以及地方制度法定出這個法律所以我現在只是問不管是不是才化法任何增加支出增加人力增加補助的都可能是用法律案來解決法律案有沒有違反憲法70條 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4776.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4791.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
如果是法律案那在這一種跟所謂的預算案其實他還是在本質上他還是會有一些這一點我不知道就是說我們預算案這一點他們會怎麼去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4794.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4823.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
教授今天就很簡單的說你認為yes or no違不違憲我在這一點上我不敢那麼明確的講我沒有把握的這件事我沒有辦法明確說yes or no我們立法院通過了幾個法案第一個原住民進法補償提高到6萬村民長事務費沒有行政院提案是由立法院提案的立法院增加了國際事務處也增加預算沒有行政院的提案這三個案子現在都通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4824.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4826.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
當時的進法補助卓榮泰院長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4833.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4855.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這是行政機關跟立法機關之間對於這件事情彼此的看法但對於在憲法怎麼解釋這一件那我覺得將來如果有這個案子到大法官憲法法庭的時候可能要針對各案再去看因為這也牽涉到財政到底我們國家怎麼樣合理去分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4859.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4865.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
好,謝謝黃委員、謝謝貝提米爾下一位請王逸川委員詢問好我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4888.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4905.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
主席請何教授請何備提名人答詢王委員你好何教授、何院長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4907.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4929.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
今天請你來參加這個大法官被提名人的相關的巡打剛剛聽到兩位同仁對你的提問對你的反應不卑不亢該講就講我非常的欽佩做一個大法官就是要這樣不用畏畏縮縮該講的心得該講因為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4933.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4958.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
在今天上來執行之前我問過很多學法律的他們都是你的核心你這個在政大教書從這個教授這個系主任到院長到主任秘書討理滿天下所以對你的這一個法學的這個專業跟素養其實大家不用懷疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4960.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4976.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那但是有幾個問題在你成為大法官之前還是要請教你我知道你兩天做大法官面對這裡的問題態度是什麼好我們來看我要給這個詢問的第一題這個大法官常常在做憲法裁判、憲法法庭在開叫董事人申請的團體來問 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4988.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5005.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
現在像昨天那個匪憲亂政的法律法律在問的時候就有傳播很多人,幾百萬人在看那或者是說你們事先之前也會有很多的民意調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5006.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5031.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
大法官做出裁決裁判事先之前．很多名譽調查．很多網路的這個．風向．很多名譽代表．意見也很多我請問這個何教授．你還在看政論節目?有拉齁．你也在看所有媒體．一些網路媒體．一些報導 多少都在看拉齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5034.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5060.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
你認為以後當了大法官以後這個要事先前法庭開的前後相關的彼此的答辯的過程中對於這些輿論各式各樣的輿論有些在擒勒的啦有些民調跟你說你大法官你如果做出這個裁決消費沒辦法接受很多這種東西啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5062.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5074.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
你覺得你個人,不要說全部的大法官,你如果做大法官之後你覺得這些事情,你的看法跟態度是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5077.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5094.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
謝謝萬委員對一個大法官來講以我個人的看法他的其實主要的一個權限其實是在針對國家根本大法的憲法來做解釋所以在這一點上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5095.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5113.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
大法官跟立法院代議或者是立法委員的功能其實是不一樣的也就是說在這一點上大法官他不是像立委他們的所謂的這樣的一個民主的正當性在大法官這一塊其實他沒有那麼強 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5115.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5133.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
大法官雖然是透過立法院同意後任命但他的民主正當性基本上還是弱於所謂的立法院的這一些立委的選舉等等但大法官在解釋憲法的時候自己本身必須要有自己的 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5134.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5150.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
心裡的有一些基準對我來講很簡單的就是民主、自由、法治、人權保障這四個我是不是能夠說服得了我自己也就是在這一點上媒體或者一般民眾到底怎麼去談 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5150.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5170.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我認為有時候通常他是基於個人的地位立場從自己的角度去看那個問題但我認為大法官要看這一個國家這一個問題的時候他的高度必須要能夠終關國家的一個全部的狀況然後來做利益的權衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5171.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5195.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
就是說在這一點上,不是媒體或者是輿論然後他們做了什麼,大法官一定要依照這個媒體跟輿論去走如果這樣的話,那大法官他做一個法官的一個獨立性就沒有了好,你這樣講,跟我認知是一樣的這一些輿論,有時候我們看不看,就是因為你是大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5196.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5212.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
你們就按照你們的訓練,按照現在憲法的規定,按照這個學理來做一些分析,介紹給人民聽可是我再問,這個憲法做得不好,現在這個中華民國憲法裡面,有一些東西奇奇怪怪可是這個憲法沒有改進,它也是憲法,它也是憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5222.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5245.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
你要改水的時候,是要按照一本不合理的憲法,說不合理的人,叫不合理的憲法,還是叫全世界人的憲法都這樣用?若是這個帝國回到你,現在不讓你回到,不讓你回到,你是維持這個你跟我說的自由、民主、理念,叫全世界一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5246.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5260.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
還是沒辦法,這中華民國憲法就是奇奇怪怪,裡面有一些條文,這如果要給我解釋下去,這我也很困難。你怎麼跟全方說,在一種方法,你說出來不會違背你的訓練、你的學術的良心,還有辦法社會覺得你說的是對的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5270.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5287.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
對我來講我覺得我比較會有比較大的困難的是在於說對憲法的解釋適用憲法的那些基本的原理原則其實我們或多或少深入的程度也許不同但我們都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5287.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5308.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
但這一些想法或者這一些理念其實很多我們受到的這一些訓練或者學習的來源其實是那一些民主的或者法治的先進國家然後到了台灣的時候我覺得有時候我真的會碰到一些困難就是別人國家他在這一個規定上 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5309.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5336.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
他們是這樣的解釋適用可是在台灣如果我們做這樣的解釋適用的話恐怕就會碰到很大的一個瓶頸根結還是在於憲法就是我們的憲法到底以過去這樣的憲法到後來的增修條文是不是真的足以符合我們現在台灣的法治或者是民主憲政的這個現況那如果不符合的時候那大法官能怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5336.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5356.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
最根本的問題當然就是要去修憲符合台灣現在的一個憲政狀況來修憲但剛剛黃委員問過因為我們的這個修憲的門檻太高所以在這種情況下在沒有解決這個問題之前大法官的責任就會變得非常的重也就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5357.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5382.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
憲法的文本沒有變更之前大法官到底是要怎麼做是要尊重原來憲法的文本、憲法的原意還是我們應該要看現在台灣的憲政狀況看現在各國的民主先進國家他們的憲政體制然後透過解釋的方式想辦法讓我們的憲法能夠更符合實際的需要那這個對我來講確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5384.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5412.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
需要一段時間的適應．還有也許也是一個考驗對啦 這聽起來是很困難啦即使你做到法律學院的法學院的院長齁我畫這條也算困難齁好 那請教你的第二題啦是說過去有很多的事宪文嘛齁有些憲法法庭的裁定、判決啦齁你舉一個例子齁若同時你是大法官你會寫不同意見書 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5413.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5427.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
有沒有哪一個案子,哪一個四線紋齁,你看到之後,哎呀,怎麼這樣四線,怎麼這樣,這不通不通,我的訓練這個看起來不通,舉一個就好,很故意整的沒關係啦,不要說應用到,現在還要逗我刮,大家董事有種情誼,就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5432.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5444.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
過去對一條解說出來,你若領異動詞若是大法官,或是你以前一號架車的時候若說到一條,你說若我做大法官,這條我會交不同意見書,去一條領就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5448.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5465.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
我必須要這樣講就是說以我們法學訓練或者是一個法律學者老實講我對於過去的這一些不管是大法官的解釋或者是現在的憲法法庭的裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5466.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5485.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
沒有哪一個解釋或者裁判我百分之百滿意我總是會覺得這個樣的解釋不夠或那樣的解釋我覺得還可以做得更好那是不是有一個解釋或者是一個裁判我是完全反對基本上以我現在來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5485.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5510.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
沒有,除非是非常久遠的在我們戒嚴時代那一個時候的解釋那為了當時的那一個戒嚴體制也許有一些解釋可能我認為不符合我們現在的一個憲政秩序但那一些解釋其實後來透過大法官或者是憲法法庭等等這些解釋也都開始去調整了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5511.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5523.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這也是剛剛黃委員講的就是我們其實是可以透過未來的這一個判決來變更過去所做的解釋或者過去的這一些判決但 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5525.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5541.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
未來到底要碰到什麼樣的個案會有什麼樣的一個情況等等那可能在目前來看以我目前的一個現在作為一個被提名人的這個角度我很難去預估該來的怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5541.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5565.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這樣就對了,你做教授在教室裡面發表學術的看法跟學生交流跟研究生、跟博士班學生、學術研討會跟一些教授交流針對哪一個視線文你有意見,那可以說,這都沒問題大家見仁見智嘛,因為大家想的訓練沒感嘛今天你是被提名人,像這個地方你不可以亂贏後面可能有人會做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5569.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5583.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
要注意喔,因為你是被提名人喔因為喔,這個應用到這個大家審查的這個規定喔當然當教授跟這一個接下來當大法官那個態度就沒有,做大法官之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5585.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5586.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
如果有中國黨政軍的背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5612.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5623.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
他們也經過這個相關的程序 到幾年後取得中華民國的身份證你認為這些人可以當擔任公職 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5626.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5639.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
這些人可不可以參選公職,然後就任公職還是你覺得啊,憲法就規定說,中華民國國民啊,大家都可以參政啊選舉罷免、創制複決,我們都可以說啊,他就要參政啊,他也有照規定啊,啊又是因為喔,中共齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5647.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5675.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
一些黨政軍的背景,真真假假,為教授,何教授你也知道,經常在兩岸交流,來的教授一直都是教授,不只是教授,還是他也來交流,他就派來督軍的,都有人。就是說,你覺得領綱就是說有人有這個成分,他也有中華民國成分證,他可能來到十年幾年都有,他雄雄說他要選立委, |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5677.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5690.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
鄉長說他要選總統,政黨也都收聽,也有政黨提名收聽,都沒問題你看這條線,如果我們中選會說不行不行,你這樣不行,你以前做什麼,現在怎麼可以選立委、選總統他要你申請四線,因為中華民國憲法規定說可以,他要你申請四線你看這一題你的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5706.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5730.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
對於我來說也就是說如果從憲法的角度憲法基本上是在規範國家跟國民的關係那我們在憲法上怎麼去定義所謂的國民當然如果按照王委員講的這種你取得了中華民國身份證你規劃成我們的中華民國的國籍你當然就是國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5731.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5752.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
國民之後按照憲法來看如果你取得了憲法上的國民那當然你就跟一般的國民一樣你擔任公職或者是選舉等等這些基本上可能就比較不會有問題但我認為這個問題可能是在於說我們對於這一些人是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5753.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5778.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
讓他在這個受什麼條件．讓他在取得這個中華民國的這個身份．取得國民身份之前．是不是應該要具備什麼樣的一個條件．或者是應該要考慮什麼．我覺得這個可能不是憲法上面．能夠代替立委或者立法院．大院去處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5779.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5802.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
如果說今天在立院裡面針對這一部分有一些這個立法的規定出來就是說在這種情況下然後這一些人他可以取得身份之後他就可以擔任公職可以選舉等等那立法院如果有這樣的一個所謂的實定法的話以 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5803.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5819.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我如果將來去擔任大法官原則上我對於這一點上面我會比較能夠去說服我自己去尊重立法院他所做的這個決定但我認為大法官在這一點上在解釋憲法上 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5820.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5842.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
在我們目前的憲法尤其是我們還有很多實定法比如說這個兩岸關係條例或者是我們的公職人員選舉等等這一些沒有動之前從憲法這個角度來看很難從憲法去切入所以意思就是說這個除了憲法以外我們還有其他的法律選罷法、兩岸人民關係條例、國籍法 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5848.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5849.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
現在問題來了 下一題 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5879.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5907.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
他如果召去這個憲法法庭去找這個大法官說我也是有中華民國國民的資格,這樣也給我算啊我就放棄中國的戶籍啊,我們的國家就不會創造中華人民共和國國籍,他這樣跟你講若是你,你敢不受理這個案件,我們說受理就好了,後面要多說幾句大招你輪值啊,大招你輪值,這招你看這敢不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5909.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5923.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我必須...王委員我必須這樣講就是說非常具體個案的其實以我現在的身份不太適合提早把我的心證就在這裡公開講我當然有我自己的心證我有自己的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5924.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5944.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
只是我認為這個必須要碰到個案的時候然後大法官也不是一個人的法官一個人的法院我還是必須要跟其他的大法官一起大家來討論決議之後才有辦法去決定實際上應該怎麼做當然這個會涉及到我認為也就是說以我們現在台灣的現況 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5946.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5964.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
真的會碰到一些問題就是這個問題恐怕不是其他國家會碰到的問題這個可能是真的我們非常本土的台灣的問題也就是台灣跟中國之間的這種關係彼此之間這種關係到底要用法律的角度或者憲法角度怎麼處理 老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5965.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5991.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這一個只有我們台灣人能夠解決因為拿到國際社會去看或者其他國家來看其他的國家基本上不太會處理因為當年東德跟西德他們基本上他們也是在聯合國也是兩個國家所以他們就是用他們國跟國那種關係去處理可是我們台灣的狀況又非常不一樣所以我不能夠那麼明白的講這種具體案子怎麼講 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5994.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6001.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
臺灣、中國這就不一樣了,國跟國,這條不要為難你,這條不要,你應該有新政,好,最後最後一個請問,在憲法訴訟法的,就有人稽告,在說什麼憲有縱有的定義啦,這可能武家靈工這憲法法庭都不用開啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6013.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6028.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
黃珊珊委員說要修憲門檻很高現在憲法法庭現在的門檻也很高因為我剛開始向你請教說你核心也很多我們這個大法官在這裡背提名人喔大家核心也很多如果剛回到這個核心就要整群的就對了剛回到的帝母不要說他們調供的啦三群的我回到你啦我看你也要迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6041.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6059.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
你以前假的,或是一段要迴避的,一段這個迴避都開不成,這種門檻弄這麼高,最後剩差不多30秒,你告訴大家你的看法,你的看法就是說,這個人數的現有整合,你有什麼看法? |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6061.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6072.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
以我基本的立場我其實是覺得我們現在的憲政自由民主憲政走到今天非常的不容易所以呢身為一個大法官被提名的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6073.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6097.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
如果將來順利獲得同意的話去擔任大法官我當然是希望憲法法庭跟大法官這個職位或者是這個工作要繼續的加強因為大法官或者憲法法庭所做的這些決定不只是去談國機關跟機關之間的問題他其實還有非常重要的就是對人民基本權利的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6098.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6109.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
那如果大憲法法庭被癱瘓了或者不能運作了那我認為那個是國家將來會碰到非常大的問題謝謝王委員也謝謝被提名的人下一位我們請黃建豪委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6132.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6140.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
好,謝謝主席,我們邀請這個司法院大法官被提名人何賴傑我們請何被提名人答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6151.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6170.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
外言你好背題名人好我後續可能會簡稱何老師畢竟從學界來今天是針對立法院今天來審查我們司法院大法官的人事同意權案我想這個人事同意權案最大的民眾最關心國人最關心的爭點當然還是在所謂的死刑存廢的立場上面我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6173.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6196.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這個何老師你很清楚說國人對於死刑存廢的態度從民調上歷史的民調尤其今年來民調來看的話不贊成廢除死刑的民調高達85%那贊成的大概10%那今天第一個問題當然是要請教就教一下這個我們何老師你個人的立場上對於死刑存廢你個人立場是支持廢除死刑還是反對廢除死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6198.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6226.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝黃委員的提問對於我來說我剛剛其實已經講過其實我對死刑這個制度我基本上作為一個學者的身份我是反對的但我也講過死刑這個制度到底將來的存跟廢到底要怎麼做這個恐怕也不是我個人作為一個學者我認為反對死刑所以死刑就一定要廢掉我也不敢也不能夠這樣冒然的就做 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6227.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6244.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
那現在我認為我們的憲法法庭在憲判8這個判決裡面其實我認為他們也有考慮到那一般的民眾對於死刑的看法因為我所理解就是說這個大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6245.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6264.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
在做這個判決的時候也許他們會考慮到民眾如果對於死刑這件事情反對的聲音很大的話那大法官適不適合就在判決裡面很明確的就說死刑違憲那如果今天就直接判死刑違憲即使後面那一些條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6265.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6293.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
就是說一定要犯罪情節最嚴重一定要以自決然後呢如果是有這一個精神障礙的不能這個判死等等那一些問題都沒有了可是大法官為什麼沒有那麼直接就說死刑違憲我覺得他們可能還是考慮到我們現在的社會一般的民眾對死刑這件事情到底存跟廢尤其是支持要存的這一部分的民意還是很強 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6294.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6322.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
那如果你貿然做出這樣的一個問題我要請教一下你有沒有思考過國人為什麼對於廢除死刑的這個態度這麼的堅決這麼的反感就是在你的這個不管學術生涯也好還是實務上的經驗也好為什麼國人現在對於廢除死刑有這麼高的這個反對的聲浪你有沒有思考過這個問題對於因為你剛才說你作為個人你是當然是廢除希望能夠廢除死刑但是因為我們今天討論的不是個人意見今天你可能會成為我國的這個司法院大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6323.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6340.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
所以你的個人的意見或你個人的想法當然後續也會在其他的個案上面影響到後續的司法解釋的結果所以今天我要問的是說在你去做出任何的判決之前你有沒有去思考過說為什麼台灣現階段這麼多人去反對廢除執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6341.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6356.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我當然沒有看到非常明確的對於人民反對死刑的這些名義有一個更仔細的分析告訴我們為什麼老百姓在這一點上 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6357.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6358.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6374.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6403.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
或者他沒有針對他的這個罪﹐付出應該有的處罰﹐應該有的刑的話﹐那對一般的民眾﹐就會對於司法﹐對於法律﹐甚而對於這個刑法的處罰﹐會失掉這個應有的信賴﹐所以也許民眾會認為說﹐殺人償命﹐天經地義﹐殺人者﹐人橫殺之﹐你既然殺﹐你就要被人家殺﹐但對我來講﹐我的看法就是﹐那一個古老講的那一套﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6404.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6426.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那一種傳統那些想法是不是真的符合我們現在台灣人我們現在的一個比較自由民主的社會也是會支持這樣的想法因為過去也有同樣這種事情要不要存費我講真的是兩種價值體系在衝突在討論那就像老師剛剛所提到的確現階段在憲法第8號裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6427.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6453.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
司法院並沒有做出說實行違憲的判決但它實際上它是在這個程序上面加重了非常多的條件在裡面我想包含說高檢署在這個研討會上面也提到了這些程序造成了實質上要判決死刑是一件非常非常困難的事情嘛所以導致這樣的結果那當然如果今天啊我應該這樣講如果今天司法院你直接判說死刑就是違憲那可能今天這討論就沒辦法討論了就沒有什麼可以爭論的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6456.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6474.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
那就是因為今天我們之所以在這邊跟你討論是因為在程序上面在這種要求行政機關配合修正要求立法機關配合修正那就你的立場來講你覺得這件事情有沒有稍微有沒有侵害到我們立法權因為其他國家應該以現階段來講已經廢死的國家他們當然經過了長期的討論民意機關的共識社會的共識所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6481.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6503.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
有形成一個真正廢死的法律的這個條文嘛那我們現在變成是用憲法解釋用憲法判決的這個角度去用程序上去讓這個死刑很難被判決出來那我想問的是說老師你對於司法院做這樣的判決去影響到司法機關影響到立法機關影響到行政機關的作為這次你們有沒有違反了所謂權力分裂的原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6505.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6521.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
對我來講就是說憲法的解釋其實它的法律效率就是等同於法律也就是說在這一點上如果在法律效率來講其實他們做的這個判決的效率其實是跟立法院定出來的法律那個效率是同等的但基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6523.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6539.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這兩個司法跟立法它的功能是不一樣的也就是說大法官在做這個解釋的時候提示的那一些標準你要死刑宣告應該在程序上怎麼怎麼做這一些對於立法者來講那到底立法者 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6539.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6558.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
在配合這個是不是要修法或者是說就讓那一個憲法的這一個法庭的判決等同於法律就依照這個來做呢老實講這個將來會碰到一些困難但在死刑宣告或者死刑的這個程序面上面老實講 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6559.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6581.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們希望這個死刑能夠非常的慎重只針對一些認為是犯罪情節最嚴重的然後透過這樣的最嚴密的正當程序然後去保障他我覺得這樣的一個想法是OK的只是 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6581.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6608.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
到底要怎麼做?也就是在程序面上面其實有非常多需要去考量我不是強制辯護你剛剛提到說這個憲法解釋等同於立法院的法律這個部分你剛剛有這樣講嘛這部分我是無法認同啦因為憲法解釋之所以是解釋是針對憲法做一些原則性的這個說法跟判決但是真正的法律形成要件當然是經過民意的討論立法院的公防、立法院的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6609.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6624.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
正反面兩面的論述之後形成共識或形成表決的結果這才是法律如果憲法解釋能夠成為法律的一部分的話那我覺得這個就是如果剛所說這其實某種程度上吸引開的是立法權的這個權責所以這是我的立場那剛老師提到說這個所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6627.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6652.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
要判死刑當然需要很嚴謹嘛那所謂很嚴謹也沒有在憲法在這次的憲判裡面有提到說個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的部分當然這個是屬於才可以判死刑那就就像其其他委員都提到或是說這段時間社會上討論非常多次的到底什麼叫做最嚴重我們從中文的字面上解釋最這個比他已經不是比較語他是最高級的最就是唯一的意思嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6654.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6677.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這世界上什麼叫做最嚴重之罪這個你要怎麼定義這件事情黃委員剛剛其實我也提到過這個剛剛黃珊珊委員問過那個最嚴重那個到底什麼罪以我的理解我覺得那個在語言學語語學上面用罪這個字其實會陷入困難就是說如果我們用文法這樣的解釋就是說你是最高級還是比較級 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6679.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6707.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那相對來講那個罪其實是比比較級還更高但他沒有辦法很明確地講這種就是罪那一種不是因為罪這個等級有可能將來還會有犯罪情節比這個還更嚴重的時候那那個時候要叫什麼罪罪罪嚴重嗎所以那個罪其實是一個我認為它是一個等級的問題也就大法官在這一點上其實他想要讓我們知道其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6708.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6734.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
犯罪情節是在比較的情況下這種情節會比這種情節它可能還會嚴重然後這個嚴重呢是我們不能夠接受的所以我們把它劃入到最嚴重的這個然後這個時候你才可以宣告死刑但這個標準我們不能接受的我們是誰是指司法院大法官們還是指一般的民眾就是說在這一點上 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6735.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6756.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
其實要看各案的法官怎麼去認定按照各案的事實證據以及法官針對這個被告、行為人等等他的犯罪情節然後在量刑上面去考量是不是要給他死刑那這一個呢其實是法官在量刑上面給就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6757.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6784.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
大法官給執業法官在量刑上面一個參考就讓你知道你要判死刑你必須既然對不起打擾了竟然提到了所謂法官的量刑那可不可以請何老師也說明和解釋一下你認知中的這次憲判第8號的所謂的一致決是什麼意思在這個問題上我也曾經問過法務部長也問過行政院院長今天你是司法院大法官被提名的我想了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6785.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6787.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
你們都一致覺得認知是不是一致的? |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6789.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6817.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
老實講你從字面上去看也就是說法官呢其實在宣告死刑的因為死刑是一個組刑中最高等級也就是說三位職業法官必須一致認定這個案子不管是在實質面比如說他情節最嚴重或者是這一個犯罪行為的人沒有什麼精神障礙等等問題然後程序也獲得保障的時候要三個法官一致都認為這個要判死刑這個才是一致決 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6818.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6834.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
但這樣的一字決在實際的狀況下也就是在量刑的時候會碰到一些困難因為死刑接下來就是無期徒刑這一個等級其實是很高的也就是說從這一級跳到那一級那對法官來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6834.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6864.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那這兩級的那個量刑也就是在組刑上其實那一個跳躍或者是他一個那個間距其實是很大的所以要認定死刑對法官來講應該是一個他個人在量刑上認為這個案子如果不判死刑的話他沒有辦法對得起或者是他沒有辦法去說服自己這個時候才能判死但這個一致決按照這個何老師剛剛的解釋跟認知的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6865.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6884.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
換句話說等於在任何一審的法這個合議庭裡面只要有一位法官他不管他基於個人的理念基於他的信仰或基於什麼原因他只要反對廢除死刑那這個我們或這位大眾認為窮凶惡極罪惡之人他也不會被判處死刑會不會造成這樣的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6886.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6903.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
我認為也會這種情況也就是說在這種情況可能會變成說你要判死刑的時候變成如果有一個法官反對兩個法官支持你的多數你沒有辦法去說服這個少數的時候那這個最後還是沒有辦法去判 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6904.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6927.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
這一個事情因為縱使你法官是多數2比1你還是沒辦法判這個少數的法官有可能就會變成關鍵的一個因素也許如果有這種其他的考量比如說很多國家的考量在最重要的這種案件的認定上 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6928.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6957.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
是不是一定要一致決當然在美國聯邦他們有一些州是這樣陪審團但我們是不是要這樣做老實講這個可以考量但多數的情況也許他採取的是絕對多數比如說過三分之二那這樣已經算是非常多數的表決了現階段是這樣沒錯但是你是一致決的憲法其實出來之後法院就不可能做所謂的多數決了嘛它還是必須一致決啊所以我說這個一致決它直接造成的結果不就是現在等於實質廢死了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6958.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6959.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
我剛剛就跟何老師討論了兩個爭點 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6988.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6994.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
什麼叫做罪一個就是說這一次決的部分為什麼要討論這兩個問題因為今天就在我們答詢的同時啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6996.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7024.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
這個剛剛有一個新的這個刑事案件過去有一位新竹的這個逆子所謂大家媒體下標是逆子吧一個新竹的犯罪行為人他跟家裡口角然後放火把全家都燒死在一審判決時期二審剛剛早上9點半10點將近10點的時間他的二審被判決改判成無期徒刑那可能當然原因裡面他主判判決主人的確還沒有完全的出來但是這就涉及到說到底什麼叫做罪如果我 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7024.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7053.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
把全家燒死了我因為吵架然後放火燒了全家把全家燒死那這個是不是罪?罪及惡之人?還是他不是?好那再回到一個問題就是說按照現在憲法解釋裡面來講故意或是按照我們刑法裡面來講故意當然也是所謂的死刑的問題但故意分很多種嘛直接故意跟間接故意那像以這個放火燒死人為例我要講的是說按照你的這個信念或你的理論來講我今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7054.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7074.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
看一個人看當事人不順眼我對他有深仇大恨所以我拿刀把他刺死這是一種另外一種是我今天心情不好我隨便縱火燒一個房子結果裡面死了很多人請問一下這兩者比較起來哪一個罪比較重大 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7078.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7092.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
問我用個案的這種情節去比較這個跟這個對我來講我就會覺得很難用這樣的方式比較因為兩個個案也許他除了你的那一些犯罪情節 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7093.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7110.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這一部分之外也可能它會涉及到裡面的有一些是不是這個被告跟被害人之間會不會有什麼樣的狀況然後採取的那一個方式會造成一些困擾比如說我在上課也提過這樣的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7111.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7132.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
這樣的歷史到底怎麼去看就是說如果今天是一個強制性交是一個熟人所做的強制性交還是他是這個針對陌生人隨機的強制性交哪一個犯罪情節比較嚴重這樣的一個想法進去之後我想很多學生都會覺得那個比較嚴重這個比較嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7134.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7151.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
這個東西只能在個案情節、個案事實裡面再去看我也很難一概的用一個很標準切下去就是說如果是這個標準那就是最嚴重為什麼要這樣問?就是因為憲法就是憲判第8號就排除了所謂間接故意嗎?它等於創造了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7153.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7168.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
他創造了一個間接故意用間接故意的手段來執行殺人的這件事情嘛就像以這個案子為例剛剛的新竹案子為例好了今天如果我親手拿刀子把他自己的父親來殺死這叫直接故意 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7168.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7188.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
但是他今天之所以可能可以逃死原因就是因為我是放火我用放火這個手段我可以說我放火我不知道他的這個辨識的確這樣講我不知道火會燒這麼大啊我不知道會把全家都燒死啊我不知道裡面有這麼多人會被我燒死啊所以他用了這樣子的空間因為你現判第8號已經排除了所謂進階故意了 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7189.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7214.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
那所以未來是不是會有這個問題就是對台灣的社會的治安就像老師一開始提到了嘛我們之所以民眾會對於這個死刑存廢有這樣這麼大的疑慮就是希望司法能夠作為保護人民的其中一道防線那如果今天這些所謂的罪大惡極之人他因為排除的間接故意之後他反而可以利用這個東西來執行他的目的那不就造成整個司法判決的天平失衡了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7215.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7229.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對於這個個案的這種尤其是事實或者是法官量刑的考慮點有時候很難去判斷的我覺得有一個原因也就是有時候我們會去量刑的時候會考量這個被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7230.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7247.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
然後在當下他做這件事情的時候：跟他做完之後：他到底有沒有回憶：或者他針對他當時做的那些事情：他到底有沒有採取什麼樣的補救措施：這個在量刑上面也會有考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7248.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7271.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
那在這一點上面我們必須要考量就是也許有一些犯罪行為在當下是這樣可是事後他後悔了他覺得我當時太衝動了不應該就這樣想到什麼就做什麼然後他開始有那種後悔或者要彌補的這樣的一個回憶的時候那我們在這種情況下是不是還是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7272.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7295.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
按照當下來看,你該死,你應該死刑,那我們就判。這個就是因為大家要覺得說,這就變成大家常常講了嘛,變成好像比較在意的是加害人的人權,他們的悔意。問題是被害人他再也沒有機會後悔啦,這是死刑之所以到現在爭論這麼多,我覺得這是很大的一個問題。那當然回到這個被害者權益的問題,過去您擔任這個台灣法學院理事長期間也提到一件事情, |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7296.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7321.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
如果被害人保障制度進入後會改變法庭結構被害人加律師會讓被告變成依達多法庭秩序大亂但是所謂被害人的這個保護權益保障在108年12月10號的時候立法院也三讀通過在《刑事訴訟法》裡面把所謂被害人權益也納入了這個審判的過程裡面我不知道老師現在的立場上還會認為說被害人加入法庭怎麼會造成法庭大亂呢還是尊重現在的這個三讀通過的法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7321.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7342.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我一向我的立場就是覺得我們在刑事訴訟一定要加強保護被害人過去只是保護現在還要更積極的讓被害人來參與也就是說讓他在刑事訴訟上他還可以享有更多的權利比如說他也可以去結問這一個證人或者是讓他可以申請調查證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7344.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7346.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
好,謝謝謝謝黃委員,謝謝被提名人報告全院委員會休息5分鐘,休息之後繼續進行詢問,現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7678.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7699.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行委員詢問請蘇委員巧會詢問好謝謝主席我們請何備提名人請何備提名人答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7709.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7709.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
欸 司委員你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7710.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7737.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
何老師您好何老師剛剛其實在聽您就幾位委員的質詢做回答的時候有一種感慨覺得哇好像終於回到學校聽到老師講話因為作為一個法律系的畢業生然後律師高考的及格人還有已經是第三屆的國會議員其實這一年來我們聽到很多對憲法有有別於學校甚多的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7739.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7740.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
大法官是憲政的守護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7758.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7775.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
是自由民主憲政體制的守護者而且在講的是大法官其實處理的不只是機關和機關之間的關係甚至他最重要的是處理國家跟人民之間的關係保障的是人民的權益我非常認同我們從以前就是這樣學的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7776.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7789.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
所以大法官的制度就是這麼重要那我想請問老師啊老師您知道嗎其實從這個徐院長、副院長以及五月份法官卸任喔一直到如果我們可以順利投票的12月24號的話其實已經會有54天 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7794.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7808.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
是台灣這大法官制度裡面會有少了足足7個人產生大法官空缺這樣的狀況老師你可以跟我們闡述一下在您的觀念裡面認為如果大法官出缺長達這麼久的狀況會對國家對人民產生什麼樣的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7812.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7839.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
好謝謝事務委員這個其實也是我一直都很concern的就是說我這一個制度就是說大法官的這一個視線以及這個憲法的這一個審判權等等這個是維繫我們國家最基本的整個憲政秩序的一個基石或者一個基礎也就是說大法官、司法院大法官作為國家司法最高機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7840.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7868.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那所有的很多在司法甚而在國家機關之間爭議的時候最後的那個裁決者其實應該就是司法尤其是憲法法庭這是權力分立的原則嘛在這種狀況下如果沒有一個最終的有權的裁決者的話那在國家機關爭議或者人民保障上那可能會有非常大的一個困難或者是混亂 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7869.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7896.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
那如果我們的國家憲政機關包括立法院我覺得對於憲法法庭要能夠存續要能夠發展這件事這個應該不涉及到或者是應該也不是所謂的政黨利益的問題那個是一個整個國家利益的問題也就是說我們要從這個角度去想那憲法法庭我們希望他怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7897.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7924.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
因為基於法官的一個獨立審判這樣的功能我們不能夠過於的去推測說憲法法庭的法官有可能會有太多的政治考量所以在這種情況下可能對於這個政治利益不同政治利益也許就會有偏或者是可能就會對於某一些會產生不利要從國家的角度去想這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7925.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7946.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我記得我們以前在學校法律系最講究邏輯一層一層下來我們現在講的是制度大法官制度是不可以區缺的因為它是國家整個憲政秩序的一環甚至是對人民最有影響因為你看我們有調出來資料嘛如果憲法法庭一旦停擺權益受損最多的是誰是人民啊因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7947.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7964.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
申請案當中跟人民相關的其實反而是高達99%這樣的比例不是只有我們在新聞上面看到的政治紛擾影響最大的是人民所以我們主張其實是大法官應該要趕快決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7965.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7980.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
你對人選當然每一位上來包括老師您雖然是老師我們也還是在這裡認真的詢問您對每一個問題的態度以至於以便於讓後面所有113委員立法委員做決定嘛這是兩個層次的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7982.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8007.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
所以我們認為這件事情應該是大法官在12月最遲啦12月24號應該一定要能夠趕快投票而且要能夠有一個表決決定出來這是我們的看法啦但是再來老師您剛剛也提到了就是作為憲政秩序的最後仲裁者機關和機關之間如果有爭議的時候大法官是仲裁者 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8008.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8014.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
國家和人民權益之間有爭議的時候大法官是仲裁者那如果這個大法官不被信任怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8016.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8045.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
大法官需要有民意基礎才能被信任嗎因為現在開始今年開始新國會開始以後有一種論述是來我們的那個影片可以讓老師看一下我特別摘錄出來立法委員有說大法官沒有民意基礎意思是大法官再大也絕對比我們有民意基礎的立委大也就是他開始不承認大法官是最後的仲裁者這個問題你怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8048.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8057.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
只能這樣講 司法本身他就跟律法這個權本來就是在不一樣的一個憲政基礎上 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8058.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8085.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
立委的立法權他可以用直接或者間接名義來但司法在這一點上他的民主正當性不是來自於由人民一票一票這樣投票選出來的所以在這一點上面司法去考量的不是有沒有這一個民主正當性或者他的民主正當性是不是來自於選舉等等我想司法有他的特定的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8086.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8093.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
尤其是我認為司法一直有它的本質就是在民主這種多數決的情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8095.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8116.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
有可能那一些基於少數的那些國民的權益會因為多數決而受到過大的甚而不當的侵害這個時候對於這些人權力保障要靠誰司法也就是說司法你不能夠完全說這一個是立委多數決做了決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8117 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8137.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
然後呢那就是說如果這樣過度的去侵害少數民眾利益的時候那這個時候呢國家對於這個完全沒辦法救濟那就會失掉了司法應該扮演的角色黃老師背題名人我跟你分享我的看法啦我的看法反而是說就我不反對你剛剛的說法但我的看法是 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8137.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8161.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
其實不管是三權分立也好或者是我們中華民國特有五權分立也好其實權力和權力之間本來就有彼此制衡的概念而且都是軍衛、軍等的狀況所以本來立法、司法、行政本來就是位階都一樣彼此競合的狀況所以司法有它的獨特性尤其是司法在執行的時候在審判的時候一定是要非常超然獨立的這沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8163.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8187.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
但是作為最後仲裁者剛剛我們提到的大法官制度其實您在經過立法院也就是台灣中華民國的國會議員在執行我們的同意權的那一刻起其實你就已經有了台灣社會的民意基礎所以大法官不是沒有民意基礎的因為大法官是經過立法院委員同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8187.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8205.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
我們有同意權啊我們是來自人民一票一票的審查我們有人民的民意代表而我們同意你所以你也等同於是有民意基礎我認為在這個部分的回答大法官司法並不是完全沒有這個回答您剛剛的我反而認為我不反對你但我認為應該加上這點的補充也就是我們現在在進行的正是這個你是否經過民意的洗禮就是這個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8214.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8238.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
所以我認為剛剛的這種說法其實完全沒有道理啦我再強調一次每一位大法官的被提名人可以經過被審核你可以同意或不同意他的任命但一旦通過同意任命以後的大法官大法官會議、憲法法庭以及憲法訴訟做出來的解釋文其實真的就是這個國家憲政秩序最後的仲裁 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8239.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8267.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
最後的解釋其實如果不遵守的話這個國家秩序、憲政秩序等於是瓦解了這是我認為的狀況所以我們非常非常的重視那至於所謂民意的部分其實我們有兩個例子因為剛剛我看到所有的這個委員在徵民救教甚至跟任何一位被提名的人救教的時候有一個例子其實是大家不停提到的就是死刑的存廢其實我們看到這個最新的這個憲法訴訟法庭的這個解釋文 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8267.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8289.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
出來之後其實第一他完全沒有說死刑是不合憲的啊這是第一段的大結論大白話死刑沒有不合憲只是要被嚴格來執行嘛嚴格來處理但理由是什麼其實大法官的解釋文裡面有一句話叫做因為人民的法感情上不能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8291.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8303.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
請問這句話什麼意思對於大法官的解釋會有什麼樣的影響未來如果您有機會成為大法官的話人民法感情也會是您在做裁判的時候的一個重要一尋嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8306.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8329.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
對我作為一個學者身份當然我不會去考慮這個不過作為一個大法官被提名人上來尤其是你剛剛說大法官是國家憲政制度最後的仲裁者人民的法感情你會考慮嗎也就是說在這種情況下必須要去考量就是如果你要真的很明確地講你要必須談的是人民正當的法律感情 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8330.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8346.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
這個也是呢我們要考慮的是人民的法律感情法感到底在憲法或者是一個法治的層面上他是不是一個正當的法律感情也就是說人民也許會出於很多不同的原因去考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8346.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8346.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
韓國瑜 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8362.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8387.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
完全同意但是如果我能夠給予建議的話當然我們不能夠干涉大法官的審判的狀況、過程甚至是結論但如果能夠給予建議的話我會認為這種解釋文能夠既然你都已經提到人民法感情了是不是能夠跟社會有更多的接近會更好也就是說為什麼人民法感情現在沒有辦法接受廢除死刑沒有辦法接受的原因正是 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8388.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8415.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
我們的刑度、量刑、死刑以後的這部分實在是和死刑的量刑、量度、刑度差太遠了嘛所以我們的配套措施沒有完成之前這個社會現在根本沒有辦法去討論直接廢除死刑這個部分人民法感情之所以沒有辦法接受正是如此嘛所以如果把這段能夠更明顯、更明白的寫出來我想社會、大眾可以更了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8415.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8416.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
法律白話文運動 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8437.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8457.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
好那另外我也再分享其實所謂的人民法感情剛剛我非常贊同你說是正當的人民法感情為什麼因為大法官不是看民調來做判決啊大法官其實不看民調做判決最有最有這個成效的一個例子最能夠代表的其實就是同婚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8458.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8478.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
其實就是同婚啊當年的同婚被大家視為洪水猛獸但大法官卻做出了這樣的判決最後立法院最後行政權立法院聯手通過的法案讓同婚可以成為社會的一個普遍的狀態合法的狀態他的法案名稱叫什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8480.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8502.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
是自748號解釋施行法這個名稱法案的名稱不但是等於彙整了當時能夠所有爭議變成一個最大公約數甚至時至今日執行了這麼多年之後社會不再有恐懼的時候我認為這個名稱反而是對大法官解釋的一個尊崇啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8504.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8533.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
謝謝大法官願意抗拒當時的壓力帶領國家人民往保障民主自由人權的方向去走去我覺得這才是有高度的大法官所以今天在這裡有這個榮幸跟被提名人對話而且是就你的回答未來會做我是否行使同意的參考的時候我就認真的會去問請問何老師您當時為什麼會答應這大法官的提名 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8533.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8544.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
呃... |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8545.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8564.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
這一個老師講是一段心路歷程也就是說其實以大法官這個職位我想蘇委員也是法律系出身也會知道以法律人來講大法官這個職位其實可以讓法律人守學能夠真正的在社會上發揮他的影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8565.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8591.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
學者能夠做的其實都是一些學說理論的一個倡導或者是一個散播但真正要能夠直接影響到社會的其實就是要靠大法官所以座委員剛剛提的比如說同婚或者是通姦罪的廢除這件事情非常直接的馬上跟社會就產生連結然後從這兩個大法官的解釋我就看得出來其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8592.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8610.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我們的民眾對於有一些社會事務的判斷可能基於他自己的立場想法等等在沒有更清楚或者是有更多資料當他了解之前基本上他們會採取的是有一種所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8611.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8611.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8629.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8649.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
不太能接受但經過十日考驗最後我們也許就會發現當時大法官做的這一個決定是對的那對我來講我認為一個學者在從事這麼多年教了那麼多學生講了那麼多的這一些法律的研究等等我最終到底要做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8650.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8677.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
是不是就這樣就退休了然後呢就寫我的書去了還是我能夠為這個台灣法治社會做出一點最後剩餘的我能夠做的貢獻那所以呢在這種情況下我就會覺得好那我就接受大法官這個提名來試試看那對我來講其實我的重點其實是擺在人民基本權利的保障因為跟刑事訴訟有直接關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8678.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8700.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
至於說機關正義那一塊：坦白講：對我來講那不是我的專長：但對於人民基本權利的保障這一塊：其實是大法官：可以使得上利的地方：也就剛剛書委員提的那一些：其實現在申請：大法官：釋憲或者是審判的：其實大部分都是99%是人民啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8701.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8720.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
雖然最後能夠得到大法官救濟的只有3%但已經很好了也就是在這一點上如果沒有這樣的一個救濟途徑的話那也許確定判決做了就做了我們就沒有機會再去審查這個確定判決到底在憲法的評價上到底怎麼樣所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8724.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8746.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我要做的其實是我如果將來當大法官我會focus在人民基本權利的保障這一塊希望不管是在刑事訴訟或是在刑事法我的領域我希望能夠做更多我所知道的能夠提供給這個社會大家來參考那這個是我的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8746.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8775.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
韓老師我覺得您太客氣了啦這不是剩餘價值你們是奉獻畢生所學能夠到這個憲法殿堂上面為大家來守護權益如果有這個機會當然應該要發揮好好的一生所學但我也同樣有部分不認同不同意您的說法我認為其實雖然您的專長是在刑事訴訟法守護人民權益但每一位大法官的被提名人甚至每一位大法官其實都應該要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8776.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8796.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
國家機關如果全縣不能夠分際清楚守護整體國家制度那麼制度不存下面人民的權益也沒有辦法能夠守護民主和自由是放在人權和多元之前沒有民主和自由何談人權這是我的想法也和您交換意見所以我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8797.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8814.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
其實如果您有機會擔任接受大家的同意被提名被同意了之後其實應該考慮的不只是單純人民的權益這也就是跟您分享啊就是剛剛聽了幾位您的回答以後我想如果成為大法官這是身份上很大的轉變那 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8816.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8836.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
竟然轉變就應該是確實的轉變我想學者的部分就讓他留在過去因為我們現在本席啊來自於一個地區一票一票選出來的國會議員正在跟你討論我認為未來的大法官是應該要能夠接地氣的大法官也就是他保含學士 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8836.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8862.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
保含學養能夠以他的一生所學守護國家憲政秩序保障人民權益但他對人民的法感情能夠充分了解所以他要如同我們一樣啊通查世事、通曉萬物知道從最底層到最上層不同溫層的人民到底在想什麼國家的情勢、世界的局勢到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8862.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8886.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
也一定是各位大法官心中必須要有的缺貨這才是我認為未來能夠接地氣的大法官我們需要的尤其是您剛剛其實沒有回答到我一個問題就是說這一屆最大的挑戰是什麼我認為這一屆大法官最大的挑戰就是如何繼續保障大法官制度的存在這就是這一屆大法官最大的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8888.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8912.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
所以剩下20秒不曉得和貝迪平恩您同不同意我的說法還有沒有最後要作結我覺得在這一塊上面因為大法官的權限其實作為一個憲法的守護者而憲法又是最高國家最高的機關它涉及到整個國家整體的事務甚而也會跟國際也會產生連結所以大法官的那個職責其實是非常的重那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8916.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8939.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝蘇委員,謝謝被提名人下一位請劉許廷委員詢問謝謝主席,這個被提名人何賴傑教授有請請何被提名人答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8950.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8973.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
定委員你好教授早安這個在開始之前和先續名這個當前的社會氛圍人民對司法其實是高度不信任的那麼大法官作為基本上在法律不管是學界也好、實務界也好基本上都是最高的驕傲一旦成為了國家的大法官基本上在法律的部分話語權是非常大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8974.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8988.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
剛剛委員在跟很多委員的答詢的過程中其實大家都討論大法官有沒有所謂的民意基礎其實本席認為現在就是大法官的產生跟民意產生連結的唯一時刻 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8989.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9013.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
因為同意權行使過後你們基本上愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞恐怕也很難做出差別剛剛有講啊這就是立法院經過審查所以你有名義及主機他就變相證明過去做出啊所謂的憲判第8號的這一群啊實質廢死的大法官基本上就是在民進黨一黨獨大的國會裡面多數通過的換言之他也變相承認了民進黨其實就是造成現在這樣的狀況的共犯結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9016.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9024.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我還是回到我們主題啊這個行使同意權是你唯一跟民意產生連結的時刻所以希望何教授待會在詢答的時候必須審慎而且認真 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9026.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9049.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
我們從您的自傳開始說起我們談一下理念的部分你認為民主、自由、人權跟法治是法治國原則的基石價值主導支配司法改革最重要的原則因此在我們從獨裁專制轉型成自由民主體制的台灣非常非常重要司法的改革不應該停留在形式的法治而是要著重價值理念的深化 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9049.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9050.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
韓國借言事件全世界嘩然 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9068.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9097.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
要不是沒有韓國人民的英勇抵抗跟韓國國會幕僚的這個捨身犯險恐怕他們的國會議員是沒有辦法進到議事堂開會去讓這個荒唐的戒嚴快速失效也因為這樣的狀況在國內產生了很多的政治效應我們的執政黨民進黨黨團的官方帳號到現在我們不曉得這篇文是誰發的但他這篇文影射之意非常嚴重而且有非常非常多其支持者附和甚至希望中華民國再次有戒嚴的這樣的狀況出現 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9099.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9100.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
請問被提名人怎麼評論這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9103.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9129.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
評論韓國的這一個嗎還是評論民進黨發文的這件事關於戒嚴這一塊老實講我自己個人的立場就是現在除非你真的碰到了戰爭不然的話老實講根本沒有戒嚴的這樣的一個必要性確實就是這樣但很多人也會告訴我其實目前的台灣因為我們的戒嚴法民國30幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9131.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9151.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
自定之後其實都沒有修過也可能也就是因為我們其實這麼長遠的時間到了1985年左右還是解嚴之後其實都沒有再去談這個不過我後來查了一下戒嚴法戒嚴法裡面的我等一下再問你戒嚴法你先評論這一篇發文妥不妥當應不應該被譴責 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9152.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9166.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
那我不知道這一篇到底他們的這個民進黨呢用這個官方的帳號到底這一部內部到底是不是他們民進黨的政策還是怎麼樣這個我不知道但 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9167.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9185.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我認為不管任何的政黨不管任何人在台灣都不應該支持在現階段的台灣在沒有這個戰爭的情況下宣布戒嚴即使我覺得即使總統做這一件事情恐怕都不適當第二個問題我們需要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9186.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9203.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
就是因為這樣子的一個狀況當然我們就剛剛其實教授已經想要開始回答了這國民黨這邊開始有提出的所謂的戒嚴法的修法版本簡單來說第一個重點就是讓這個把關的機制更加的完善也就是說如果宣布24小時內必須要議決如果真的遇到了國家的緊急危難那當然也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9204.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9207.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
修法版本是否有助於維護民主、自由、人權、法治等法治國精神? |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9227.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9248.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
關於這個戒嚴法我剛剛還沒有講完就是因為太久沒有修啦所以是不是要配合那個去修那到時候再看但現行的戒嚴法12條其實有規定就是立法院如果決議以請總統解嚴應即宣告解嚴也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9249.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9274.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
在韓國他們的國會決議然後總統馬上就宣告決言這樣的一個情況其實在我們現有的戒嚴法也有所以你認為王貝不是要再修正嗎?我只問你修正之後會不會更加符合你想強調的那些自由民主、人權法治等法治國精神如果這樣修的話也就是我們讓法條更完備啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9274.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9280.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
增加24小時必須追人以及休會期間必須立刻召開臨時會這樣子的把關機制是否有助於完成你這樣的精神? |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9281.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9306.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
這個我可能需要再仔細的去看看因為我沒有看到這一個版本到底這個版本實際上會產生什麼樣的影響這個可能容我之後再去看看這一個問題是可能在哪裡好 第三個我要問了針對這樣子的一個版本的一些內容有民進黨立委立刻發文說或者是在媒體面前表態說這是破壞國家安全這樣修法會破壞國家安全嗎還是你也要再看一下法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9308.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9333.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這個跟國家安全的是戒嚴的一個戰爭的狀態緊急狀態用這種方式去處理嗎我的意思是說國民黨這樣子修法的版本啊就是加嚴他的標準啊這個我不曉得因為這個脈絡到底是談國家安全是在什麼樣的脈絡下這個我恐怕也沒有辦法針對這個來進一步的評論好沒關係喔留下紀錄以之公決再來我要再問喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9337.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9359.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
這個講一個以前發生過的事情2010年的時候當然因為兩公約的修法等等這法界當然就開始進行討論我想討論是沒有問題的因為當初在這個倡議跟行動的時候其實大家有一起給當時的法務部長曾永福的一封公開信也就是說台灣應該要暫緩執行死刑因為討論你必須經過完整的討論之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9360.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9389.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
做制度上的修正或改善大家會簽名我那時候還查了一下聯署的有非常多法界的學者之外而且跨越黨派即便不同政黨意識形態的人都認同這樣的事但是我要講的重點不是為了Face而是為了討論也就是說2010年開始討論Face這件事情它就是正式浮上這個重大社會議題的一個討論那我想請問喔這個你也是參與人其中之一你也聯署了對不對14年過去了請問討論改變了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9392.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9409.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
老實講,這個也是剛剛數委員談到的這個問題說我在學界20幾年那參加了這一些倡議、連署、甚而參加研討會其實有非常多的我的想法等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9411.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9432.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
這一些基本上都是學界老實講就是你等於是無權去做這一些解釋或者無權去做這一些行為的時候你再講再多恐怕也不見得真的有作用那現在目前來看實際上有沒有暫停執行死刑那後面我再討論後面沒有這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9433.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9436.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
會不會影響社會觀感很難講但不會是直接的影響到法律的實施或者法律的制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9450.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9472.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
我拿整理了一些數據給這個被提名人來做參考也就是說從你2010年開始討論歷年來大家針對死刑的民意調查滿諷刺的事情就是這個不贊成廢死的比例最低的那一年也就是說大家還比較用相對開放一點點台灣社會畢竟是保守的但大家還相對開放一點點的心態恰恰就是在發起討論的2010年 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9475.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9494.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
還是有74.3%的人接近75%的人是反對廢死的然後我們剛剛問你14年來討論什麼當你每一年都討論你在法界開了研討會各式各樣公民倡議以及等等但結論是什麼你這數字這樣一路看下來有高有低啊但從來沒有低於2010年的水準也就是說只是14年過後 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9495.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9520.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
你最新的一樣是中正大學犯罪研究中心它是每一年都做啊這個不贊成廢止的比例從2010年74.3現在變成85.5你越討論反對廢止的人越高啊為什麼我想請應該這樣我把問題問得更明確一點啦其實就是我剛剛開宗明義講的現在社會對於司法的公信力是存疑的法界跟社會脫節的問題也是大家都討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9521.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9543.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
請問被提名人的看法我所理解的比如說這個民意在民意調查我沒有意見我覺得這個對於我所理解的民意可能他真的就是一個真實的反應但對我來講就是民意這麼高比例的反對死刑到底是一個出於一個什麼樣的一個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9543.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9566.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
其中我認為有一點其實是這樣就是我們作為刑法組刑的死刑跟無期徒刑這個中間其實我認為跳躍性很大對民眾來講那你不死刑的話那就只能跳無期徒刑那無期徒刑以目前又可以假釋的話時間到他就出來啦那我能接受嗎可能很多民眾不能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9567.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9594.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好 所以是這個配套的問題那我們在這邊我們還是要不免這個很多委員都問了但我們也不免不免重複的問一下我剛剛聽啦你剛剛講說身為一個學者你是反對死刑的嘛對我這樣講應該沒有錯對好 但是你現在是大法官的被提名人那你如果真的順利的通過了提名成為了大法官未來在面對死刑存廢這樣子的議題的時候你的態度是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9596.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9609.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我已經之前其實我也說過了就是我的態度基本上反對死刑但反對死刑跟廢除死刑這個其實它是有階段性的問題也就是說憲法法庭的大法官們 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9611.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9637.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
有15位那在15位的時候其實你每一個人針對這個死刑你都要表示你的意見所以也不是一個人能夠是說我反對死刑所以死刑一定要廢除我可能在這一點上面我不會那麼直接的就做這樣的判斷因為也要考慮到個案的情況你不能講說我可能不會做這樣的判斷因為我必須要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9638.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9662.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
各案的情形因為將來很有可能大法官面臨的其實是各案的裁判確定判決如果被判死刑啊人民針對這一個來申請釋憲的時候那就必須針對各案的情節到底這樣的一個法院判決死刑這樣是不是合憲那個就是一個個案問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9662.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9678.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
所以你面對這些數據還有14年來溝通反而反對聲音越來越大的一個情況下你的結論是要交給個案來做判斷是嗎對我覺得要個案來認定你自己覺得這樣子的一個說法能不能說服或者是安定社會大眾焦躁不安的心情 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9679.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9705.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我必須要講從法律的層面或者憲法的層面我們的法官其實應該要做的其實是要依照法律獨立審判然後其實他必須要依照他的良心來判所以要不要宣告死刑這件事在目前法律還維持死刑的這樣的一個規定的時候法官只能依照個案來決定要不要宣告死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9705.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9730.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那大法官既然認定在現判第8號判決認定死刑在目前不構成違憲的時候那將來如果碰到個案基本上我會尊重先前的判決的先例如果沒有其他讓我可以作為改變這一個判決先例的那一些其他的情勢出現之前我會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9731.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9733.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
這一個 憲法法律之前的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9736.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9761.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
基本上啦在面對這樣子的題目的時候不外乎幾種就是說你說我堅持我作為一個學者的立場你可能很多法律人認為說大家對於法律不信任是因為缺乏溝通缺乏說明大家對法律不了解以及等等所以你必須堅持幾件捍衛你自己的立場跟價值我想這是一種回答的方式那麼第二種是看到了社會的氛圍考量社會跟法律的這個脫節以及人民對於司法高度的不信任你必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9763.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9767.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
捨棄你的理念以大眾為先尊重民意做出符合民意的決斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9768.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9795.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
可是你並不是走這兩種你說我要個案判斷我有一種雖然你今天是被提名人你身份是教授但我有一種在質詢官員的感覺你在中間找出第三條路試圖用政治的話術來逃避問題這本席對你的回答本席是有點失望的我們為什麼要這樣反覆強調今天那麼多的委員也不只是針對您個人這請你不要往心裡去為什麼大家今天這麼關心這件事情就是因為113年的現判第8號就是現在在任的這一群大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9796.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9825.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
真的是我們從社會的角度為社會代言的角度出發基本上就是胡說非為嘛稍早才出現的這個新竹輪胎行的縱火案這一把火燒死8個人包含自己的這個直系新竹在內然後二審說改判無期徒刑前面那段時間這個人民走上街頭啊久違的走上街頭大家是非常難過的因為一個獅奪獎這個獸獎的這個女教師出門只是要幫家裡人買菜結果先被搶劫後被性侵最後被殘忍殺害 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9826.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9843.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
結果一個是說因為他自首活有悔意所以逃過死刑一個是講說這個東西並不符合所謂的最嚴重犯刑所以逃過死刑所以你們剛剛的詮釋或是您剛剛在回答說我們依個案來判定 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9845.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9856.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
給社會為什麼你會從70幾%反對變成80幾%反對就是因為你每一次的個案認定每一次的判決都大大的加深了社會對司法的不信任難道沒有這個問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9858.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9878.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
為什麼要個案認定其實因為死刑這一個刑法的手段涉及到在個案法官的量刑的職權也就是說法官在量刑的時候到底決定按照個案的事實是要給他死刑還是無期徒刑要看個案的情節而量刑這件事對法官來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9880.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9896.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
是一個非常就是說重要但是也很難以去判斷的因為沒有兩個刑事案件是完全一模一樣然後被告殺人的情節殺人的狀況也都不一樣所以如果你要切一個標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9897.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9917.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
按照這個標準那一定要判處死刑的話那你可能就必須對法官量刑在判決的時候那個量刑的因子你必須把它確定下來但這一點在目前刑事法或者憲法上很有可能都會被人家認為你干預到法官的獨立審判權 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9918.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9940.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
司法院也誠心考量所以你剛剛在答詢的時候基本上你認為依個案判其實你就是要給予法官最大的授權空間但我要告訴你這一段時間這樣子一個機制的一個行使就是當下社會的人心惶惶大家不再相信法律不相信法律可以懲奸除惡也不相信法律能夠保護好人我們就最後這段時間我們就以憲判第8號來做收尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9940.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9967.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
你剛剛講啊你說我們不能太侵害法官的這個自由但是我現在講你是侵害社會對於公平正義的期待啊現判第8號的判決雖然你剛剛在回答的時候你也講說我們又沒有講說實行違憲它合憲啊可是你合憲的時候你加入了這樣的東西尤其在詮釋的時候加入了比如說一字訣好了一字訣這件事情當初在申請的時候它是題目之一嗎它不是吧它在過去的時候有任何判例有爭點嗎沒有爭點請問它怎麼變出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9971.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9997.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
為什麼他會突然跑出來這樣子的一個解釋為什麼我所瞭解齁這一個其實在美國聯邦在陪審團在決定要死刑的時候其實有這樣的一個例子就是陪審員要一字決但這種情況以我所瞭解在世界各地應該這種情況很重要有沒有這件事嘛有沒有問這件事沒有對不對那你為什麼可以突然詮釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9998.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10025.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我今天現判第8個最大的問題其實在大法官造法一般的法官造法也就是說我用判例來彌補立法的若干不足這件事情大家沒有意見因為這些判例如果不符合社會期待立法委員、立法權的任何行使者都還是可以透過制度的修訂來完善法律的體系可是大法官造法跟法官造法是不一樣的概念你們卡著憲法你有絕對的權勢權你的權勢權一下來之後我立法委員我也無計可施啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10026.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10052.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
比如說你今天講這些東西請問我要修什麼樣的方式來修正這樣的一個錯誤你甚至可以在形成的過程中直接辨出來以自決這件事情請問這不是大法官造法是什麼請問這有沒有侵犯立法形成自由剛剛很多委員也有講到同婚4748同婚4748你的內容是至於以何種形式達成婚姻自由的平等保護屬於立法形成之範圍那為什麼在這種法案上他就沒有立法形成之範圍為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10054.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10082.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
當然在這一點上他是針對死刑這一個實體手段到底這個手段合不合憲後面加了很多的那一些程序的保障那一個在大法官的看法認為我們要死刑的時候要用一個最嚴密的一個正當程序的考量所以他從那個裡面去推說什麼樣叫最嚴密的正當法律程序你覺得大法官造法是不是侵犯立法權 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10083.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10107.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
應不應該修正大法官可以造法但會不會侵害到立法權或者立法的自由形成那一個要在個案裡面去看你又要個案認定了這一種在死刑這個案子裡面我認為在目前的這個氛圍下死刑沒有違憲這件事情其實大法官也考慮到很多應該判斷的那一些因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10108.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10123.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
時間很少 剛剛黃建豪委員剛剛有提到說被害人的這個權力救濟的部分你曾經有講說被害人現在應該要參與對不對可是你在法學會理事長的時候你可不是這樣說的啊你說欸如果這樣子會變成被告這個被告會變成一打多的局面美國也不允許這樣的事你有沒有講過這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10124.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10150.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
那不是我的主張那是有一些律師律師同道的主張他們認為讓過多的被害人參與只有一個被告然後如果有10個被害人那到底要怎麼進行程序他們有人提出這樣的意見我提醒被提名人啦就是凡事都交給個案認定他不是一個好的答案啦我知道要怎麼投票了謝謝好謝謝劉委員也謝謝被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10156.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10178.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
羅美玲委員的詢問以書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報報告全院委員會．對大法官被提名人．何賴傑．詢答部分到此為止謝謝何被提名人賴傑列席答詢報告全院委員會．休息5分鐘．休息之後進行對大法官被提名人．陳運財之詢問．現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10502.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10517.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行審查大法官被提名人陳運財之資格及是否事任相關事項現在請被提名人陳運財先生說明時間為10分鐘主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10530.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10560.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
各位委員．各位女士先生．午安。30多年前．我是一位在高雄市政府警察局．服務的基層的警官．今天能夠以司法院大法官．被提名人的身份．在國會的殿堂接受審查．對我而言是無比的光榮。38年前我出國．到日本留學．選擇以保障刑事被告的防禦權．作為我研究的主題． |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10562.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10590.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
經過6年多的努力．取得了博士學位．反國服務一路走來．我致力於將憲法保障的正當程序．落實在刑事訴訟制度我始終抱持的信念是．維護基本人權．保障被告的防禦權．正可以提升偵查的品質．及落實審判的公平我個人觀察30多年來．我國刑事司法制度的發展的動向． |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10591.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10614.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
整體而言主要具有偵查程序的正當化、審判程序的當事人化以及司法的民主化三個重要的特色而這些都要感謝大院朝野協力推動刑事司法制度改革所做的努力我在這邊表達高度的敬意而在這個過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10616.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10641.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
我個人分別有參與相關草案的研議工作：或者是發表著作提供學說及實務解釋上的參考：做出了一定的貢獻：例如由於刑事訴訟法：跟憲法基本人權的保障息息相關：可以說是憲法的側陣椅：也是具體的憲法：我在民國87年出版了《刑事訴訟與正當 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10643.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10667.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
之法律程序專書．主張以正當的法律程序．作為架構憲法．跟刑事司法之間的橋樑．提供的學說．跟實務擴展憲法第8條．法定程序保障的具體的內涵．接著我曾在民國88年．以學者的身份參加全國司法改革會議．倡議求章一本主義． |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10668.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10694.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
審判證據法則的嚴謹化以及金字塔型的訴訟結構之後在民國90年我出版了直接審理與傳聞法則的專書那麼我以上的這樣的倡議跟主張當中有關於違法證據排除法則傳聞法則跟交互結問等相關的建議之後被採用到民國92年修正的刑事訴訟法 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10696.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10719.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
為我國的刑事訴訟制度轉型到改良式的當事人進行的結構﹐奠下了重要的基礎。之後在民國103年﹐我出版了《爭吵與人權》的專書﹐深入地探討了爭吵的基本原則﹐爭吵不公開﹐以及有關通訊保障的相關重要課題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10721.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10745.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
有助於衡平偵查處分跟人權保障之間的緊張關係。值得一提的是我發起成立的臺日刑事法研究學會從事臺灣與日本刑事訴訟制度的比較研究其中一個重要的共同的研究議題就是日本審判的裁判員制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10746.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10768.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我們研究會草擬了國民參與刑事審判法草案提供各界討論這個新制度的參考之後在民國106年9月我擔任司法院國民參與刑事審判法案研議委員會的委員實際參與了現行國民法官法的研議的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10769.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10796.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
如今國民法官法已經在去年正式的實施那我相信我們研究學會長期的努力對我國司法民主化的實踐具有一定的貢獻然而行事司法改革的腳步不是完成式我國行事訴訟制度還是存在不少的課題有待檢討改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10798.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10827.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
例如關於偵查程序：在法制面如何明確化偵查不公開的要件：還有目前檢查機關：仍可以自行決定具體通緝等強制處分權的爭議：乃至於隨著國際化：還有高度科技資訊化的影響：偵查機關採用新型偵查科技作為偵查手段：可能干預個人隱私權益保障的質疑： |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10828.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10857.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那麼這些呢都值得我們從憲法權力的觀點來加以盤點其次關於審判程序刑事訴訟法的第二審是不是要改裁事後審第三審要不要改裁嚴格的法律審的訴訟結構的老問題那麼真的有待我們主管機關積極來推動修法另外國民法官法規定當事人對國民法官選任程序的相關裁定不能夠提起抗告 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10858.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10886.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
容許檢察官可以在一定例外的情形．拒絕開示偵查卷證給編護人來閱覽。那麼這些規定．多少都限制的當事人．在憲法上所保障的訴訟權．跟接受公平審判的權利．難免也會成為爭議的焦點。針對上面所說的這些問題或爭議．我都認為應該基於憲法保障正當程序．無罪推定． |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10887.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10910.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
以及公平審判的理念分別進行審查或推動修法的工作其次在這邊要感謝大院各黨團提出的書面問卷各位所關切的有關憲法法庭解釋的問題事先我已經以書面做了說明跟回應由於時間有限在此就不再重複僅在口頭補充兩點說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10914.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10941.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
第一點是民間團體所關切的如何在經濟上、社會或環境變遷下處於弱勢群體的基本權的保障的問題我基本上贊同司法院大法官近年來持續擴展憲法22條概括基本權的保障範圍例如748號解釋維護相同性別者的婚姻自由803號解釋肯定原住民文化權的理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10944.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10965.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
我也會加以重視．並且維護人性尊嚴．多元文化的價值．同時參佐國際人權法的發展趨勢．來擴展憲法對於弱勢群體基本權的保障其次是不少委員．以及我們社會大眾關心的憲法法庭113年憲判第8號判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10967.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10990.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
這項判決認為．有關適合維持死刑制度本身．立法者享有一定的行程空間．至於故意殺人行為．要不要適用死刑的要件．這項判決要求．在罪責方面．個案應屬於最嚴重的犯罪情節．那麼他所適用的刑事程序．應該符合最嚴密的正當法律程序． |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10993.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11018.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
確實關於死刑制度的存悔本身是一項重大的刑事政策的公共議題我認為我也贊成必須要多方審慎的來綜合考量死刑的嚇阻作用、被害人的感情乃至於替代死刑的配套措施是不是已經充分當然也要重視輿論的動向等等的因素而在理性討論對話的過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11021.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11042.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
我建議在目前法制面最急迫而重要的課題應該是在強化被害人法律輔助賦予被害人或他的家屬補充詢問證人與被告的機會以及陳述科刑意見等程序參與權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11044.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11073.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
最後,我一直認為．法律兼具謙義跟寬容的特性．是時間的存戀．我相信我過去長期來結合憲法保障基本人權的理念．從事比較研究我國跟日本行事訴訟制度的學士專長．能夠契合憲法法庭事先的功能．也可以有助於強化憲法裁判的質量． |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11075.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11092.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
若能有幸、有機會通過大院的審查．我將堅守自由民主的信念．獨立超然、超出黨派以外．並且以謙虛包容的態度關懷弱勢．維護多元的文化的價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11093.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11104.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
辦演好守護大法官、守護憲法的角色做一位有溫度的大法官我的報告到此結束感謝各位的聆聽謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11143.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11150.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
謝謝副院長有請我們陳運財教授我們請陳貝提名人答詢教授好請教教授你住中壢嗎你說我住在 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11169.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11172.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
根據最新的民調有超過八成民眾反對廢死請教教授大法官做出憲法第8條 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11199.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11219.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
先判渣言．判決死刑的難度．有傾聽民意嗎．還是說我們幾個大法官．決定就可以好首先就為了提問第一點．有沒有就是要遵守民意這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11220.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11235.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
是說有不是遵守就是說有參考嗎這樣子因為民意反對這八成所以這個就是我們大法官很大就是就是想要怎麼判是不是也有是說去參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11236.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11237.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
是這樣的意思還有說目前我們還有目前我們台灣有37的死刑犯未執行甚至最長還要拖到24年就是間接傷害了300個家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11255.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11282.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
不管是被害人還是砸害人的家屬每天都活在痛苦中這樣子的案子彼彼皆是一名流行男子已經五度判刑了他性侵強盜並殘忍地傷害一名教師為教育的貢獻也被政府肯定他是一個國家的棟樑 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11284.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11284.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
一個女教師這算不算是情節重大呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11291.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11316.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
首先剛剛委員問的第一個問題我好像還沒有正面回答我覺得說 憲法法庭這麼惡劣的人算不算是情節重大我只要問你算不算而已有關個案是不是情節重大他基本上是事神法院就個案來做綜合判斷的問題所以說你不覺得這個是事情重大嗎 是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11319.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11344.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
應該要就個案裡面由市審法院針對他犯罪的動機就是我現在跟你講的個案啊如果一個個案你也沒有回答的話所以在2019年台南獄警住宅縱火案鬆手殺死了7人謊稱自己比鄭捷還厲害啊就是犯罪後還冷笑說他沒感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11346.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11374.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
這樣的毫無人性、可惡至極的人,這樣也算不算是情節重大呢?目前委員所舉的這種個案的例子,因為...對啊,個案的例子你是大法官,未來是大法官,你有沒有覺得這個是我們是情節重大的案子?那因為這個個案的事實情節,我個人並不是很具體的了解。 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11375.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11376.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11397.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11410.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
7的這個案子我已經舉例這兩個案了那是說如果你是如何再去做這樣子的大法官才不會造成我們家屬的惡度傷害啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11412.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11436.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
委員所了解的因為大法官解釋憲法那基本上他是從是的你解釋憲法但是我們全國的人民還有法官依據憲法依據你解釋的憲法來執行所以這個部分所以要希望你當大法官後你要如何來去 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11437.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11459.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
注重這件事情因為我們大法官是法院最高的權威是人民最希望也是我們的人民對這樣子的一個最後的希望但是跟你在講的事情我們覺得說我們的司法判決現在是不公不義的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11459.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11476.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
人民已經對司法徹底失望了如果你是大法官你要有作為你如何去做如何去讓我們的人民對我們的司法找回這樣子的希望還有相信大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11478.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11494.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
陳祖剛委員所提到的．大法官在做憲法解釋的時候．不管是就立法事實的基礎的必要性．以及涉及到干預人民自由權利的程度範圍．乃至於比例原則的審查． |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11495.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11497.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
民意並不拘束大法官． |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11511.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11531.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
對阿,連總統都不會拚民意阿,那你們是大法官是總統的管轄區,你們怎麼可能會考慮我們的民意八成的不同意呢?所以我希望你講出說你是大法官,未來你有什麼作為,你有什麼方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11532.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11555.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
這個才是我們想要的,因為大法官是我們最高的權威嘛,對不對?如果你,我們要選你當大法官了,你現在來是要認為你未來當大法官,你有任何的作為吧?你都只講的是打太極拳,我們怎麼,這個票怎麼投得下去呢?這個才是你今天來的目的嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11557.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11561.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
打太極拳打太極拳打太極拳打太極拳打太極拳打太極拳 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11576.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11597.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
你應該要怎麼樣去面對這些事情你怎麼樣去做憲法的解釋但是我們憲法在113年的憲判第9號主要審查我國113年6月24日修正公佈立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11600.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11616.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
職權行使法以及刑法第11條的字就是藐視國會罪是否抵觸憲法這個判決涉及幾多重要的憲政議題我有幾個問題要請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11620.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11640.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
你在我們的本黨的問卷中表示憲判自第9號部分條文由論理提出的質疑所以認為有值得在著墨之處所以請你簡單說明你的觀點針對這個憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11646.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11672.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
就113年宪判第9號的判決這個判決以我現在是大法官提名人的身份當然我表示尊重那這邊就憲法各獨立機關之間的權限爭議那麼大法官歷來都已經提出了蠻多的這樣的一致的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11674.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11691.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
有關憲法獨立機關之間的爭議或它的行政措施若有去違反憲法的明白規定或者已經侵害其他憲法機關獨立行使職權的範圍或者去妨礙他們職權的行使乃至於取而代之 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11692.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11708.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
如果關於你這麼說的話：我們的現判第9號的：自第9號的：大法官判決幾乎完全是否決：但是立法院三讀通過的國會法案： |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11709.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11721.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
立法院作為民意代表的機關應有全力保障與制衡行政院的機制我們還被造謠是國會擴淺當年我們民進黨提出國會改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11728.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11749.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
就是聖旨不是擴淺現在呢我們來實現當年民進黨的夢想捍衛國會改革所以你要支持立法院持續推行嗎如果你當我們大法官後你會支持國會改革嗎這個是民進黨當時的夢想當時要改革的 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11756.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11784.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我想過去政黨提到有關國會改革的相關的法案之間的比較我在這邊不便於做評論那我覺得有關於國會之間的權益的爭議就如我剛剛跟委員報告的那麼歷來大法官都有他一致的審查的標準來進行判斷那麼這一次國會改革法案有部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11785.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11811.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
如果你剛才講了那麼多你是否支持我們立法委員執行就是執行權的時候有權利要求行政機構不得拒絕提供資料因為我們有執行權我們以後這個是不誠實的所以呢他拒絕我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11812.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11817.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
提供資料：也是虛為陳述：所以你支持：你支持這樣的：刑職出法嗎：基本上：還是像你說的：讓大家都來當青菜館就好：交代就好：你講是你的：你問是你的：我也是來交代就好：今天你也是來交代就好：是不是這樣：不是來這邊交代：我這邊來接受委員的：詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11839.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11854.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
提到的就是我們立法院根據憲法的規定對行政院各部會所長的執行權要求政府官員或 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11854.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11856.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
但是我們在立法院執行的時候時間有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11872.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11878.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
我們要精簡的還要找很多相關我們材料去質詢但是你們都隨便回我們隨便來去糊弄我們我們當然是有權利來去要求如果你覺得我們相關現在的行政首長在質詢的時候就是只是當政治責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11898.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11917.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
無當負責法律責任這樣的行政首長是得賽親差慣親差者所以在我們怎麼樣這樣制衡呢怎麼去為人民的把關我們是只有一院裡面只有幾十個人幾十個人都 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11918.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11939.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
都站在你們那一邊我們很奪落的權利了還被你們剝奪我們的權利所以說我們的民意機關就是在設了就變成是形同虛設了所以大法官難道你就是要鼓勵他們去說謊鼓勵他們就是陳述不實嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11941.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11962.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
不是這個樣子那我想剛剛我跟委員報告的您剛提的憲法所規定的立法院對行政院部會首長的執行權跟之後的調查權他是兩個不同的屬性那麼他實施的主體但是他們是就是因為他們有拒絕去旅行是機密去參訪餐廳也是機密 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11968.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11996.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
所以對國家有害的才叫機密啦吃喝玩樂不是機密啦但是他們就是因為你們的憲法解釋他們都設為機密所以這個是不是我們的民意也不是我們看到臺灣的政府是可以這樣子亂搞的啦所以我們希望希望我們陳教授你也曾經當過大法官就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11997.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12024.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
事先案件和最高法院的刑事．大法官的鑑定人．所以並參與司法院刑事訴訟相關．法案的研修．有司法審查的實務經驗．所以大法官以審查法律時．應如何判斷法律是否合憲．所以審查． |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12027.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12052.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
我剛剛強調了憲法法庭大法官主要是指示來維護憲法的權利分立跟制衡以及基本人權的保障那我覺得可以分這兩個區塊來看一下他的審查標準那麼歷來我初步觀察大法官跟憲法法庭就這兩個區塊的審查標準是這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12055.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12084.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
如果是涉及憲法獨立機關之間的權限爭議有涉及比較高度的政治性的話那麼他會採取比較寬鬆的審查標準相對如果是屬於干涉到憲法保障的人民的自由權利的話那這時候會看他干預權利的種類程度那麼來看一下從比例原則的部分基本上會採所謂的三重的審查的方式來進行審查那基本上我對於這樣的審查方式我表示尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12085.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12085.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
大法官應積極維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12106.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12106.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12127.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12151.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
社會中要正當性還有時效性還有就是公平性這個部分我希望你要記得是要有這樣子的心還有再來呢針對國民法官的議題想要請教一下國民法官在112年的時候就是結案數為13件 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12155.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12172.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
你的問卷中表達國民法官的制度實行時短,就是太短了,才在一年多。所以請問你認為目前台灣的國民法官的制度需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12173.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12174.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
首先我預測也期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12194.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12211.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
我們實施國民法官法．讓國民有參與．跟職業法官一起參與審判的機會．應該是可以期待．會提升國民對司法的信賴．讓國民法官可以知道．法官實際審判工作的辛苦．以及依證據認定犯罪事實的復雜跟困難． |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12215.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12240.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
那我覺得說是有助於民眾對我們整個司法制度的建議你的說法就是應該期待每個當議員賣命的意思目前依我們的國民法官 國民法的法官規定本刑10年以上的案件都有可能適用其中也會包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12242.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12271.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
我們的那什麼堵職堵職罪這類案子這個字我沒有看過因為中文不是很好所以這類案件可能就是就是那個政治立場複雜度也比較高請教針對這個類型的案件私用上你個人的立場如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12273.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12291.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
這份我長期來的主張是這樣子的即便是用貪污罪罪條例的案件它往往涉及比較複雜的行政法令的解釋這一部分確實困難不過是用國民法官法的案件法令的解釋國民法官不用去解釋它 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12292.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12319.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
當然當然但是在我們的問卷裏面就是中州市媒體的報導國民法官參與後量刑有偏重至刑刑你回覆目前的案件積少不宜直接定論像我向上的這樣子的常態你針對我們我國的法官量刑或者國民法官的量刑有如何的具體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12320.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12341.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
改善或者檢討的方向不是指因為你在我們的你剛才有說你是留學日本所以說我們台灣也參與說我們的制度也是國民法官是我們要等於是改革初衷也是說我們是司法透過這樣子的過程我希望你在這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12348.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12349.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
好,謝謝麥委員,謝謝被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12375.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12387.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
網美會之詢問與書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報報告全院委員會上午會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行委員詢問現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
21603.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
21603.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
主席好 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
21628.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
21637.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
還有各位委員、媒體、記者們大家好在這邊先有請陳教授、陳運財、崔教授我們請陳備提名人答詢委員好陳教授您好您這次被賴慶德總統提名為大法官候選人 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
21652.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
21680.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
那麼在此本席當然基於我是立法委員所以我必須要針對您的專業資格等等這些條件來進行審查所以接下來我會有些問題要請教陳教授那麼陳教授您研究刑法又留學日本那我想請教您您有知道最近的一則日本的新聞嗎就是日本政府他們到現在為止仍然是維持要有死刑的看法您知道這則新聞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
21683.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
21703.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
我並沒有特別follow對,不過因為是日本我想他們法務省也都有定期做相關的民意調查是的,因為在今年11月的時候這個日本的法界人士其實有在給日本的政府建議說要重新檢討死刑但是呢日本政府他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
21706.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
21734.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
官房長官林芳正就表示死刑制度的存廢是涉及到日本刑事制度核心的重要的議題應該要從國民的輿論實現社會正義等等這些角度來慎重思考所以對於情節重大的凶惡犯罪死刑的存在不可避免那麼日本政府是不考慮開設相關的會議來進行檢討死刑那我想請教您您對於日本政府的這樣子一個態度您的看法是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
21736.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
21753.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我想每個國家對死刑制度的存諱﹐應該都有他們國家﹐很多﹐多方的考量﹐那這一次現判第8號的判決﹐針對死刑存諱本身﹐其實也明白表示這是立法者想有一定的形成空間﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
21754.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
21777.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
好的,謝謝您的回答就是這次的大法官在現判自8號這個死刑有條件核限的這個判決裡面雖然認為死刑是有條件核限但是其實也設下了多重的門檻您剛剛說得很好就死刑的存廢應該是要由立法者來決定那請問有關於如何判死 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
21778.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
21787.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
以及死刑的構成要件以及執行死刑的要件是該由大法官來決定嗎?還是這也是屬於立法者的形成空間?我個人覺得說死刑的存在本身我們先確立是屬於立法形成的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
21801.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
21827.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
不過就個案來講：他是不是要具體適用死刑：要見來判處死刑：這個部分當然一般是屬於事實法院認定的範圍：那麼就憲法法庭來講：我想他應該是基於對所謂的人的生命權的保障：認為要剝奪一個被指控涉嫌犯重罪的被告死刑：那麼他也參著國際人權法： |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
21829.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
21850.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
應該是人權公義的第6條必須是最嚴重的罪所以來做成這樣的一個解釋是謝謝陳教授因為我的問題其實很簡單就是大法官有這個權利可以繼續對於要如何判死刑然後這個相關的法院法官裡面如何審議合議這個部分來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
21852.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
21852.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
21877.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
21882.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
請問您會繼續維持憲判自8號的判決還是會做出推翻這個判決直接宣告死刑違憲又或者是你根本認為死刑合憲然後同時要把這些條件全部都刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
21901.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
21922.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
我想基本上對於將來可能具體個案進入到憲法法庭來做違憲的審查的部分我在這邊先沒有辦法也不適合表達個人的立場或建議不過剛剛我有提的這樣的問題我願意就一般論來做回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
21923.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
21944.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
那麼我想繼續尊重生命權的觀點那這一次的憲判8號提出了罪責的要件必須是個案那麼是最嚴重的犯罪情節那麼就所適用的視訟程序必須是符合最嚴密的正當法律程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
21945.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
21971.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
那我覺得說以這樣的標準來做審查是應該好簡單來說您就是支持大法官這次的憲判制8號判決基本上我尊重雖然說您曾經這個表達您的立場您是反對死刑的但是您還是認同憲判制8號所做的判決以及他立下的種種的條件是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
21972.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
21990.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
是 因為這是我個人我必須如果將來有機會擔任大法官我還是不應該受到我現在既有的學說的見解或自己的想法所拘束我還是要必須充分聽取這個個案的意見好 謝謝您的回答那接下來我要問一個問題就是因為大法官在這次的憲判執法後判決裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
21992.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
22019.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
其實有一個條件是特別引人大家就是引起這個眾多實務界批評的就是呢未來法院判處死刑必須要何一庭法官要一致決然而在目前的國民法官法的規定裡面其實針對死刑的科處事實上只要是國民法官及法官雙方意見三分之二以上同意就可以了那麼請問一下憲判自8號的判決是不是能夠拘束國民法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
22021.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
22043.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
憲判8號的判決他只有拘束何玉婷的職業法官並沒有拘束國民法官所以你如果說國民法官不修法或者是說我們接下來的立法委員我們這裡提修法提高做成死刑同意的門檻從三分之二到四分之三類似像這樣的法律你認為會違憲嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
22046.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
22066.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
基本上我先說明就是國民法官法83條針對死刑的科刑要求要有三分之二的過半數決以上更高的標準而且必須有這些法官一票在裡面他的目的本來就是希望讓死刑的科刑能夠慎重那也能夠讓國民法官法庭的合議能夠充分的討論這是他原來的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
22067.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
22079.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那今天因為現辦8號的影響所以連同國民法官法的83條有關死刑的科刑也要求必須是3位職業法官要一致決在外加國民法官即位進來是嗎他可以這樣子的解釋嗎你的3位職業法官要一致決 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
22083.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
22084.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
也就是說他只有居宿國民法官的那個庭裡面的職業法官嗎我覺得您這樣的解釋是有問題的簡單來說啦就是憲判自8號的判決其實已經備受批評包含他還做了很多的宿外裁判 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
22099.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
22125.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
申請人沒有申請的然後大法官也都擴權自己跳下去去當立法者這是對於很多的法界人士是不能夠認同的所以呢我接下來我想請教您的還有一個問題就是有關於就是藐視國會罪的問題藐視國會罪這個我知道您因為在日本留學所以您應該知道說日本法上其實也對於政府官員在立法在國會殿堂上的虛偽陳述有處罰吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
22128.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
22153.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
日本他們有所謂的兩院作證的簡單而言就是議會作證的證言法的規定有是對然後呢但是呢我們這次大法官在現判自9號事件案當中認為說到立法院接受質詢的行政首長政府官員對立法院負責是只負政治責任不負法律責任您是否同意這樣的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
22157.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
22157.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
22174.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
22195.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
通知到議會作證到議會作證沒有就是做據實陳述等等他有違反義務的處罰也有違正的處罰不過我想畢竟日本他是一個議會內閣制的國家那他也沒有我們台灣的監察院等等的問題存在所以我想可能也不能不予相提並論 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
22198.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
22216.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
謝謝陳教授的回答不管是議會內閣制的國家或是總統制的國家乃至於美國都有處罰藐視國會罪人家都是西方民主先進的國家知道權力分立是要如何的制衡唯有我們的大法官這個獨樹一格這一屆的大法官真的是獨樹一格 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
22217.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
22241.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
國外先進民主國家的好地方他不學他竟做一些反民主反法治國原則的這種釋憲判決那麼也不知道說他們的學問到底做到哪裡去了我真的認為說我們現在的憲法法庭是不是快要回到納粹時代的憲法法院把這個台灣這三四十年來的民主法治的成就整個都打回到這100年前的帝國時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
22242.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
22268.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
好那接下來我要請教您的就是您是否支持許宗利院長所談的司法積極主義事實上許宗利院長在他擔任院長的這8年裡面他基本上這個非常的這個積極的在這事件上面做了很多企圖想要改變制度然後凌駕立法指揮立法的這樣的一個判決那麼這也引起了大家的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
22271.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
22293.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
也引起了社會上面很多人的批評認為說現在大法官不斷的擴權凌駕民意所以我想請教您就是第一個您是否支持許宗麗的司法積極主義第二個當大法官擴權大法官做成違憲的憲法判決的時候誰來節制大法官的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
22296.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
22320.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
第一個問題我認為所謂的司法積極主義的具體的內涵其實可能見仁見智那以我個人如果有機會擔任大法官的工作我基本上還是會回歸到向法法庭他還是應該在維護權力分立跟自衡以及維護人民的基本權的觀點來做司法審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
22321.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
22322.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那怎麼樣來極致大法官的擴權? |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
22343.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
22367.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
我想目前委員問得很好那這也是我一直在思考的地方就是司法的違憲審查跟民族主義之間的衝突應該怎麼去做橫平那我們目前的所謂的民主主義大概有兩個方式在我們憲法所肯定的一個就是我們立法院的間接大意形的民主一個是公民投票的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
22368.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
22382.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
那麼確實歷來我們來看大法官的違憲審查會跟這兩個會有點衝突那我覺得說這個部分目前我的想法是當然就是盡量維持相互尊重然後事法審查也能夠盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
22384.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
22402.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
好謝謝陳教授的回答不好意思我必須要常常打斷您因為我的質詢時間有限還有後面很多問題所以我聽您的談法基本上您也認為或許透過公投來覆決憲法法院的判決是一個可行的做法因為它是基於國民主權原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
22404.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
22431 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
我可以補充一下嗎問題就是說即使公民投票的結果那由立法院來針對公民投票的創制的方式來立法那我們知道這邊一樣其實它也有一定的情形也可能進入憲法法庭的司法審查的範圍畢竟憲法法庭還是在維護憲法的最高法規的最高限所以您的意思是說透過公民投票來覆決法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
22431.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
22434.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
然後最後還要再進到憲法法庭來審判如果公民投票覆決憲法判決最後的結果還要再經過這個憲法法庭的審判那這不就是大法官就是無限大 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
22444.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
22444.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
茲依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
22476.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
22492.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
審理憲法判決的門檻同意門檻請問您是否支持這樣的法案有關這個部分我是不是可以分兩個層次來看一個部分是目前委員提案預定修正把所謂的現有總額改為法定總額另外一個就是決議違憲的門檻要提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
22501.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
22501.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
22516.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
22516.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
提高評議門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
22542.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
22569.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我覺得憲法訴訟我剛修正後不久我們是不是可以再花比較多的時間來觀察目前究竟憲法法庭做成相關的司法審查的情況如何再來思考怎麼做研議修法是不是比較好因為我想說這個畢竟這還是屬於我們的立法形成的空間這屬於立法者的決定畢竟我們從過去看到平穎的門檻曾經有過四分之三的三分之二到現在二分之一就代表說立法者本來就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
22569.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
22593.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
考慮到在整個憲法訴訟的這個發展引進的過程當中大法官省裡有沒有出一些什麼問題所以這應該就是屬於立法者的權限了吧我不希望說未來我這個法案通過之後呢去集體釋憲然後又被大法官認為是違憲所以聽到您今天這樣講法我至少是支持本席的法案我很高興那接下來我還要再請教您一個問題就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
22596.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
22609.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
不知道您有沒有看到這也是這兩天的這個重要的新聞一個南投的縣議員齒雪燕她遭到內政部以違反國籍法解除公職那內政部認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
22613.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
22640.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
他要放棄他的國籍然後因為沒有得到這個有國籍的證明所以呢解除他已經任職執議員的這樣的公職我想請教您的是您認為大陸人民是外國人嗎當然是目前我們有兩岸人民關係條例來做規範是所以呢大陸人民是不是外國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
22641.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
22666.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
如果從憲法的觀點來講有關大陸人士就憲法基本人權的部分我覺得跟我們國人應該一律的保障不過我想在兩岸人民關係條例針對參政權的部分那就有一定的限制我想這有一定的公共利益的考量陳教授其實我的問題非常簡單就是您認為大陸人是外國人嗎還是我們中華民國的人民中華民國的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
22667.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
22692.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
以目前我們兩岸之民關係條例來看他應該沒有我們中華民國國籍對除非他有按照我們的相關的規定他沒有我們中華民國的國籍您知道我們的國籍法是採什麼主義嗎對是我們是採學童主義是所以大陸地區的人民他的祖先可能他的這個爸爸媽媽他的祖父祖母就是中華民國國民所以他沒有中華民國國籍這樣的邏輯有點怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
22699.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
22721.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
你剛才不斷的提到兩岸人民關係條例在我們兩岸人民關係條例裡面所定義的大陸地區人民是中華民國的國民是吧?如果他是外國人我們根本不需要兩岸人民關係條例啊我想委員你有您的這樣的解釋是 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
22722.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
22742.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
沒有 沈教授因為您接下來極有可能會擔任大法官如果您擔任大法官您勢必會遇到有關於對於中華民國憲法的解釋對於我們中華民國國民的解釋在過去曾經有中華民國領土的解釋大法官說這屬於政治問題所以他不碰 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
22744.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
22763.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
現在有關於中華民國國民的問題您認為大法官應該怎麼解釋?所以我回到我剛剛跟委員報告的就是說從憲法的觀點要來看這樣的一個具體的個案它所涉及的是憲法有關哪一個部分的基本人權的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
22764.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
22781.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
對,用這樣的標準來進行審查憲法保障基本人權分好幾個概念有保障人權、國民權、公民權等等所以即便外國人他可能也在特殊的一些基本權利上面也會受到我們憲法的保障但是現在很清楚的就是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
22783.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
22807.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
已經取得中華民國國籍以及公民權的陸配議員竟然可以因為內政部說他沒有放棄大陸地區國籍所以要把他的公職來解除本席就好奇說是那他們是外國人嗎大陸地區的人民是外國人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
22809.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
22814.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
他可以說他放棄國籍嗎?我們中華民國有承認中華人民共和國是國家嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
22818.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
22822.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
這句話要講清楚將中華人民共和國視為叛亂地區還是將大陸地區視為叛亂地區更何況我們已經解除動員開亂時期了 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
22845.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
22869.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
所以我想就是這個陳教授因為時間有限好謝謝翁委員謝謝貝提敏人張宏祿委員之詢問已書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請陳玉珍委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
22876.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
22881.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
主席我們請被提名人陳教授請陳被提名人答詢被提名人你好委員好我看了一下您的簡歷任教31年被提名的原因就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
22900.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
22913.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
有很多專門的著作、專書我看了一下你的學術表現比我昨天質詢的這個張文貞我們的司法院長貝廷文的這個學術成就感覺比他有過之而無不及 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
22914.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
22931.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
這個只有被提名為大法官沒有被提名為院長如果張文貞可以被提名為院長我覺得你可以被提名為院長的院長啦我看你這個你有專書啊他昨天我查了很久都沒有專書啦所以這個我先對你的這個學術方面的成就先表達這個肯定啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
22932.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
22948.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
謝謝委員不過我想每一位被提名的人都有他的專長跟他的著作您的專長在刑事嘛我也刑法嘛我也看了一下好我看您對這個國民黨團問卷的回覆意見裡頭齁對重大的議題齁比如同婚啊、通姦廢死這些齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
22949.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
22949.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
社會多數的價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
22970.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
22981.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
第一個,我如果被通過為大法官,我基本上不會被我過去的判法所拘束。對,以開放的新政來做審查。第二個,民意的部分,當然我們盡量的來聽取跟尊重。 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
22990.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
23018.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
但是做判斷的時候呢?司法畢竟它是具有促進個人自由跟保護少數人的平等權的實體的價值存在比如說以廢死這個議題我們講白的我知道你是支持廢死這個你的文章裡頭我們也都拜讀了那如果在這個議題上面的話您應該是對死刑的這個存在是不支持的嘛可能是因為國際公約啦肯定對人權的這種保障的這種信念嘛對吧沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
23018.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
23024.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
基本上我並不贊成死刑制度不過這是基於我對刑事司法學者的一個見解跟想法而已那我不會說這個想法跟見解自我拘束不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
23033.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
23058.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那我想請教你知道今天剛有一個審判出來不知道有沒有您知不知道這個新竹有一個輪胎廠就是一個這個正義輪胎廠這個事件您知道這個案件嗎這個案件我並不是很清楚我大概跟您講述一下這個我想讓您做一個這個就您不要說您身為大法官就您身為一個這個一位學者你現在是學者的這個看法這個案件是 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
23060.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
23088.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
有一位陳姓嫌犯他潑了這個他因為跟他爸爸要錢要不到然後呢他就涉嫌潑灑汽油又在他們家唯一的出入逃生口扔出用打火機點燃的衛生紙造成住在那裡住在家裡的八個人包括他自己的三個子女他的太太他的母親他的大嫂他的妹妹還有一個一歲大的子女全家八個人命上火腸 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
23090.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
23102.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
就說因為他自己可能生活上不理會：對他爸爸說不給他錢：騎著口腳：然後他就拿出大火機：再逃生口房：衛生紙就在那裡：讓全家的人：後來造成：造成全家死了8個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
23104.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
23128.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
那您聽懂了這個基本背景這個背景很清楚是這樣子您認為這一件事情因為我們知道這個憲判制第8號的判決死刑是剝奪生命最嚴重刑罰只能用於最嚴重罪行這個是我們憲判制第8號的這個判決您認為剛剛所描述的那個情景呢這個正義輪胎行的這個情景他的這一位 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
23129.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
23134.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
犯罪人這位陳姓男子他這個行為算不算是最嚴重的罪行 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
23136.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
23161.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
跟委員報告我不是叫你說判他是不是死刑什麼因為那個有兩個前提嘛這一種行為算不算最嚴重罪行因為所謂的最嚴重的罪行我覺得確實他有一定的程度是一個不免罪的法律觀念你不要告訴我錯像的東西請你告訴我就剛剛那個情景如果有一個人好這個人是我這樣做了這樣我算不算犯了最嚴重的罪行 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
23162.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
23180.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
因為如果是我來 如果是你這樣做我如果是一個事實層法官的話那基本上是不是最嚴重的罪行我基本上應該會去考慮幾個因素第一個他犯罪的動機所受的刺激他的手段是不是殘虐有沒有計畫性被害人等等因為要考慮因素還要考慮到狹義的科學的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
23183.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
23204.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
所以我想剛剛描述的這樣的一個情況﹖很清楚啊,對不起,因為大法不給錢嘛﹖判斷的因素上面我覺得說﹖沒有啦,我就問你這個情形﹖我還沒有辦法做﹖你沒有辦法判斷是不是﹖對,我還沒有辦法﹖所以你連基本的﹖地方法院法官都有辦法判斷啊﹖高等法院法官都有辦法判斷啊﹖不是,因為還是要根據證據﹖你要當大法官你沒有辦法判斷﹖不是,因為這是要看個案﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
23205.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
23232.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那法官他們接觸所有的卷證資料他們可以做判斷我就不要講這個案子好了我就說有一個現在有一個這樣的情形不要講這個案子有一個這樣的情形有一個人他在他們家門口因為跟他爸爸要不到錢跟他爸爸齊了口角就潑汽油點衛生紙然後最後造成了他們家8個人死亡媽媽、老婆、兒女什麼大嫂、子女死了8個人這樣算不算最嚴重的罪行我們不講這個案子就如果說有這樣的情境 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
23235.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
23249.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
我覺得說真的這是個案判斷的問題你要身為一個我國的這個最高的這個我們憲法的這個到時候裁判者或是解釋者你只要當過一位大法官你沒有辦法自己做獨立的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
23250.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
23279.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
這個連司法院的法官跟大法官的功能跟職長跟方式都不一樣所以我覺得兩者很不相提並論所以如果有一個地方法院的法官今天有這個案件的話他說我沒有辦法判斷我沒有辦法判決這個高等法院說我也沒有辦法判決你是連基本地方法院的法官資格都不秤嗎都不秤職嗎如果要去當一個地方法院法官那你要來當一個大法院的法官要如何讓我們的國人幸福呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
23280.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
23308.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
我不管你認為他是不是最嚴重的罪行你至少要有你的價值判斷嘛就像你覺得死刑是你覺得應該不應該有這個制度存在我尊重這是你的價值吧你是這樣這個一個身為一個要當我國這個五院裡頭相當重要的司法院的大法官沒有辦法做自己的價值判斷你支持廢死我不支持但是我尊重你因為這是你的價值判斷我尊重所以我剛剛問你這個題目我再問你一次你認不認我剛剛舉的那個情境是最嚴重的罪行 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
23309.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
23332.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
我還是擔任大法官做憲法的司法審查的這樣一個制度的事即便您是刑事的專家還是不同的方向所以你沒有辦法做這方面的審查即便您是做我研究過你的這個履歷還有你的學術相關的報告你大部分寫的都是跟刑事有關的保障人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
23334.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
23351.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
這個就是說法律的正當程序這些東西但是你到今天告訴我如果你到一個情境今天如果案子遞到你的面前你也沒有辦法做判斷即便是這麼簡單的案子所以你沒有回答因為你不知道這樣那我反過來問你是不是認為他不是最嚴重的罪行 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
23352.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
23354.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
地方法院做判決了今天高等法院也做判決了 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
23368.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
23386.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
不好意思 地方法院有做判決 高層法院有做判決即便他們做的判決是不一致的 但是他們做了判決所以他們就做了相關的這個認定但是一個要 我們的準大法官沒有辦法做判斷沒有辦法做判斷 我不知道你是因為為了想要取得這個大法官的這個職位 所以沒有辦法對你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
23387.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
23387.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
23405.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
23426.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
你的心理犯罪就是說你也不知道也不是最嚴重也不是最不嚴重這個如果民眾遇到這樣的法官其實心裡都會很難過這個就像民眾在遇到政府機關常常在澄清事情的時候這個政府機關常常也不告訴說欸這個是可以嗎還是不行嗎對不起有可能是可以也有可能不行公文寫出來是這樣子如果這樣子你寫出來的憲法判決我會覺得說左邊讀也對右邊讀也對然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
23429.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
23429.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
末宗已逝 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
23448.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
23451.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
立法院113年憲判第9號國會執行刑事法的釋憲案判決主文有關立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
23461.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
23481.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
這個部分立法院國會刑法之前一直剛剛翁小林委員次上也問到了我有注意到您是日本神戶大學的法學碩士法學博士也算是我的廣義上的學長我在日本九州大學念書念法學碩士那我看到了剛剛您也問到翁小林委員也問到我這裡把這個法條提出來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
23484.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
23504.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
宗和22年法律第225號有關這個在醫院 剛你也提到 你知道這個法案吧你知道這個法條吧 知道就是說有關在議會裡頭 醫院裡頭有一個叫做正能於醫院宣誓與作證法 這個法律你知道吧 知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
23504.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
23524.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
沒問題吧 裡面有講說依照本法宣誓作證的證人是日本的法律若作虛假陳述處3個月以上失戀效益許可徒刑 沒問題吧您知道這個法律吧 知道那日本有這樣子在議會在國會殿堂的這個不能作虛偽陳述嗎所以你對於我們這個大法官的視線剛剛過的這個視線裡頭有關這個在國會裡頭這個如果來作證這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
23531.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
23549.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我們的憲判制第9號說這個我們原來立法院決議的是如果做無正當理由缺席、拒絕表示意見、拒絕證言、拒絕提供資料、儲信代幣1萬以上、10萬以上這個施起效率被大法官現在大法官威於說那個憲法法庭說施起效率您的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
23551.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
23576.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
我剛剛在問委員諮詢的時候也有提到這一部分另外日本沒有我們的監察院等等我覺得可以再回到刑事法的角度來回答委員的提問我先請教你提問你再往後回答日本是內閣制國家那美國呢?美國也是內閣制國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
23577.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
23593.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
美國是總統制美國是總統制美國也有這樣的法律你也知道對吧應該是有不是應該有剛剛你沒有認真聽翁小林委員都寫在上面美國、德國、法國、日本都有都有這樣的法律那您覺得這樣的法律在我國是不適合使用的是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
23594.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
23612.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
如果我有稍微進一步看一下宪判9的觀點因為我們的刑法141-1基本上是人身自由的剝奪所以它基本上採取比較所謂的嚴格的審查的標準來看所以必須要具有特殊的公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
23613.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
23624.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那麼在比例原則上也要以所謂的符合下一比例原則所以你認為說所以我想這一部分憲判9已經有他的一個論述對,所以你贊成憲判9的他的論點嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
23627.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
23647.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
站在你獨立思考的方向以目前對我尊重憲判久了這樣的論點尊重我也尊重認同的人都尊重憲法那現在就是說你認同嗎畢竟如果以日本的所謂的議會的正人正言法的角度來看它是一個專法的規定對它對於作證的任務、作證的程序、作證的要件等等是非常明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
23649.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
23671.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那你這樣認為說我們國會把他放在立法院執行心法比較不妥當：如果用專法可能就比較妥當：你的意思是這樣子嗎：因為剛剛說日本是專法：也不是這個意思：也不是這樣那是什麼意思：因為他也建立了一定的審查標準：這個審查標準是放專法放在執行心法：我想都可行：他尊重立法院的這個所謂的：我釐清一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
23672.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
23701.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
你認為日本這個是可以的嗎?政人作證法這個議院的政人法我沒有辦法用我們台灣的標準來審查日本我沒有來審查我是我沒有請你審查你也沒有資格審查日本的法律我請你做你的價值判斷告訴我你的你對這個日本的這個我們在做憲法學者我們在做學術的研究的時候做比較法的研究的時候我們當然也不是去審查其他國家法律我們是日本怎麼說我們的日文也是這樣寫的吧日本是這樣規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
23702.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
23724.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
美國這樣規定德國這樣法國這樣規定中華民國怎樣規定然後我的觀點是如何才會產生一部論文嘛我相信你論文如果寫比較法還是這樣出來的吧對不對你可以告訴我在論文答案你說喔我不知道我不知道我可不可以我不能審查說我不能講到那你怎麼可能寫出一本學術論文嘛學位論文也是要這樣寫出來啊對不對所以我請教你站在你是一個學者的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
23727.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
23741.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
我想知道你是不贊同有這樣的法律還是說這樣的法律應該是贊同有這樣的觀念這樣的做法只是說他可能要立一個專法或是要可能在程序裡面寫得更完備我想知道是在哪個程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
23743.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
23765.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
如果我以學者來寫這一個題目的話那我會首先從我剛剛提的憲政體制的觀點切入來看其次來從審查的標準來做檢驗來得出我們究竟應該採取什麼樣的方式這個部分就尊重我們立法院的立法的職權所以針對這個如果說我們訂了這樣你就會尊重我們立法院的職權嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
23766.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
23790.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
對不對你就會尊重我們立法院之權沒關係從學者的角度嘛從學者的角度你覺得這種證人在議院裡頭的宣誓作證你覺得這個是應該尊重的嘛立法院定的法律只是說可能裡面要跟程序是不是要完備這個當然還要再看實質內容嘛對不對所以你是覺得國會應該有這種可以請人來作證然後剩下相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
23792.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
23814.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
無論是處分或相關的不能讓人家做違憲的權利嘛你剛剛說的是你是尊重立法院定這樣的權利嘛對吧尊重立法院的權利好太好了謝謝你的回答只是說你覺得說跟他更完備嘛所以站在學者的角度那當你當了大法官以後你還會維持這樣子站在像是學者一樣維持你的這種就是說你覺得學術理念你的這個中心思想你的信仰的價值你還會繼續維持你當學術人的一個風骨嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
23819.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
23838.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我剛已經說明過我會以開放的憲政獨立操作你會不會維持你學術人的風骨學者的風骨這個很難回答嗎學者的風骨我覺得就是一種獨立性對就是一種獨立思考你會嗎你可以嗎可以嗎那為什麼要問這麼久才能回答你就可以回答可以就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
23839.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
23857.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
還要想這麼久嗎來我想請問你來有關這個剛剛提到中華民國憲法的這個部分你記得賴清德總統在這個520就職的演說裡頭這個根據中華民國憲法中華民國主權屬於國民全體有中華民國國籍為中華民國國民有此可見中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬你對這個我們總統的說法你覺得這個有沒有違憲就是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
23870.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
23891.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
這個跟政治現實上看起來是不一樣但是你覺得他有沒有違憲就憲法 中華民國憲法基本上有關國家的定位跟認同就我目前的理解基本上他應該不會是屬於憲法訴訟法不不不 你要國家的認同不在憲法裡頭嗎國家的定位沒有在我們中華民國憲法裡頭嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
23893.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
23907.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我現在不是問你憲法法庭大法官要審的那個案子我不在問你案子我在問你國家定位國家任何在我們現在中華民國憲法裡頭的憲法的規定是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
23909.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
23935.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我們憲法規定來我先問你中華民國憲法這個法例也許不完備也許它是不符合現狀的我沒有認為它是一定符合現狀喔我的立場不一定跟你不一樣喔但是我想請教你我不是說所有東西都是可以更改的嘛只要人民同意嘛就像你剛剛說的公投嘛但我當然不贊成你說公投還要再經過什麼憲法大法官的這個什麼再審查啦齁這已經是直覺民權了我的意思是說現在的中華民國憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
23936.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
23956.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
原許它是一部不完美的憲法,也許因為它已經過久了,不符合這個時代的變遷,但是你現在的中華民國憲法,對不對,中華民國憲法,這個總統所說的,中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬,這段,你覺得總統的發言有沒有違憲?但是總統的發言有沒有違反現在的中華民國憲法? |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
23963.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
23982.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
就是以目前我的個人的見解剛才已經講過這個部分應該不會進入到憲法訴訟法的這個受理的案件方面那你剛學者的分骨哪裡去了我現在就沒有在問你叫你解釋憲法吧我必須還是要以一個大法官被庭人的立場所以你對這個問題沒有我認為你我認為你 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
23988.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
24015.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
所以我認為你是不敢回答吧因為提名你是代總統嘛如果你講了這個不一樣的話也許對提名人你可能覺得不尊重或是覺得你不敢當眾勒那個虎鬚嘛因為他是我們總統嘛對不對因為他就是有至上至高無力至上權力的人嘛那如果你對執政者對我們的最高領袖我們的總統我們的元首如果他今天說出了違憲的話你都不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
24016.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
24034.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
不敢大聲的說出來不敢勇敢的按照現行的法律我不是現行的憲法我不是說他一定是非常完美的按照憲法說出他的不對或是他的對不敢指責的話我如何期許你有這個學術人的這種獨立風骨這個東西來沒關係因為這個東西是憲法那我想請問你因為這個東西影響到人民的基本權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
24042.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
24054.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
其實賴總統怎麼說他常常說違憲的事情我們看的其實雖然他說他自己也說中華民國憲法是災難他心裡沒有這一部憲法那我今天最在意的其實不是說這個總統他說什麼他是明顯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
24057.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
24081.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
他只要民眾支持他他可以當選他怎麼說他權力但他違反憲法嘛那違反憲法問題是其他的人有沒有按照這樣的按照這個這個法律的這個整個的精神來看這個東西那這個東西下去針對影響到了對我一個來自中華民國福建省金門縣的這個立法委員來講影響到是我們金門人實實在在的權益我隨便舉例子給你聽我們金門人因為時間有限 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
24084.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
24084.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
國國委員之質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
24109.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
24115.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
此詢問以書面提出：列入紀錄：刊登公報下一位請吳宗憲委員詢問請被提名人答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
24137.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
24163.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
陳老師你好委員好老師我是您以前的學生以前都是您在看我的報告今天有這個機會來審查您的資料是感覺非常的榮幸但之前也是在刑事局其實我們也有好幾次的刑事局的一些會議其實我也都有看到老師來與會發表一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
24164.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
24167.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
但我為此以來我覺得是這樣就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
24168.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
24195.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
大法官是否事任那我的想法一直是覺得說我們是實質的去審查實質去審查所以對於公共議題的意見怎麼樣我比較認為他不是一個審查的最主要比如說死刑存廢與否或者是說代孕母等等何能等等這個社會議題其實這個社會本來就存在肯定跟否定的想法那至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
24196.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
24225.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
我也不會說是因為說譬如說在死刑議題上面你跟我的邏輯不一樣那你就不事任我到底不是這樣子想法的一個人我覺得還是非常務實的去思考到底這一位大法官提名人是否事任大法官那我首先想要請教老師的一個問題就是我想這個我就比較開門見山的一個想法就是說我知道老師您的理念是支持廢除死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
24227.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
24249.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
當如果說在將來您任大法官之後因為你的理念是支持廢除死刑但是呢你在就憲法的精神上面去分析之後您認為死刑他並沒有任何抵觸憲法的精神的時候那請問一下你在做憲法判決你會如何去取捨 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
24251.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
24264.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
請老師說明是謝謝我們的提問那首先我們先確認就是實行制度本身是不是合憲憲判9號已經很明確的講是我們立法機關立法行程的空間對因為之前已經好幾次說明實行沒有違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
24269.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
24296.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
那憲判也沒有說死刑違憲但是在將來勢必還會有人繼續提出這個議題來申請憲法判決那如果是在老師您擔任大法官的時候又有團體來申請這個釋憲的話那您是支持死刑應該廢除但是如果說您在審酌之後發現憲法的精神並沒有反對死刑那請問一下您會做出什麼樣的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
24298.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
24325.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
第一個基本上我如果將來有機會成為大法官除非我們有更強烈的理由比如說在個案上或聽取當事人意見多方意見收集之後有同於憲判9號的觀點跟理由否則基本上我會尊重憲判9號的觀點就實行他基本上是立法院政策覺醒的範圍不是憲法法庭去介入審查的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
24327.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
24355.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
好那沒關係我在這裡跟老師說一下其實這個這次有關死刑的部分我們是憲判8號那憲判8號他在審理的期間其實有一個狀況跟你以前的想法是不一樣因為我知道以前在上課的時候其實非常的要求被告參與訴訟那個被害者參與訴訟的這個在訴訟上面的一個權利那因為我想先請問一下就是依照我國刑事訴訟法第3條其實被害人他 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
24356.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
24358.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
被告人權保障跟被害人權利維護不是相衝突 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
24385.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
24406.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
對我覺得說兩者應該是同樣受到重視我一直以來非常認同這個老師的這個論點但是在這一次現判8的辯論庭上面我們看到的現場狀況是這樣就是37位死刑犯的辯護律師一大堆都在現場那但是呢都沒有這些所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
24407.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
24434.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
指責的家屬我們也只有一位翁曉琳委員出來說明就是為什麼死刑有存在的必要法務部當然也有他的論述但是你等於是一個現場幾乎是碾壓式的而且是沒有讓被害者的家屬就是那些被害人發言的機會你認為這樣子的憲法法庭的審理有沒有需要改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
24437.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
24461.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
我想憲法法庭的實際的運作那這部分在憲法訴訟法跟它相關的細則應該有一定的規範那委員你現在有提的有關被害人或他的家屬的訴訟參與的部分我想在我們的刑事訴訟程序目前我覺得還是有規範不足跟運作不周的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
24462.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
24462.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
24485.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
24506.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
將來如果任職大法官之後他願意接受願意怎麼做我們也不希望說在這個時候我們沒有讓你表明清楚就日後好像又您又做另外一套做法所以我還是蠻希望就是說如果之後您有幸擔任大法官的職位那請要注意就是老師您一路以來一直堅持的要 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
24506.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
24506.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
24529.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
24531.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
24550.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
24573.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
因為老師是學者出身那我在實務界工作了20年我的感覺是這樣當我在學校時期及我念的書以及聽老師的講法之後我對於死刑的感覺是這樣在如果只是以理論當作我的經驗值的話死刑的存廢這是一個高談闊論而已譬如說我要廢除死刑這是一個高談闊論 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
24574.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
24588.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
但是當我的經驗只是建立在這個社會上面很多血淋淋的例子我看過非常多血淋淋的屍體然後陪著他們家屬一路走過來之後我真的對死刑這個東西我覺得我沒有再懷疑過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
24589.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
24614.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那當然在理論上面比如說盧梭的社會契約理論或是以前那個黑格爾的強制後的強制其實在理論上面也有非常多支持死刑的理論存在當然我們再回過頭去看像以前那個歐陽修的那個雙方簽表大家很喜歡講的嘛就是求其生而不可得則死者與我皆無恨所以我們實務走過來的我們其實看到了很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
24616.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
24641.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
的狀況很多的案例其實一個殺人犯不管他被判死刑還是判無期徒刑其實你回過頭來看死者的家屬就是死刑就是對他而言是死刑他的心已經死了對死者的家屬是一個無期徒刑為什麼他永遠走不出這個傷痛所以我最近跟一些那個被害殺人案件的被害者家屬跟他們相處 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
24642.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
24647.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
有一個人跟我講過一句話我到現在還深深記得他說他媽媽10年前被殺 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
24649.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
24675.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
他本來覺得時間是最好的良藥可以治癒這個傷痛就10年後他發現一點效果都沒有他沒有比10年前少一分傷痛所以我再提到剛剛盧梭的理論或是黑格爾理論其實我覺得也許他還是有存在的必要這邊先跟老師報告一下說因為老師是學者我是實務出身其實兩個想法不見得是一樣所以很多時候我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
24676.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
24701.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
我們社會或者是很多制度總是一直在朝向被告的角度去保護那老師跟很多學者不一樣是老師上課的時候常常講到的是一個平衡就是被害者的家屬保護被害人的保護以及被告的保護兩者是不衝突的所以我們也應該要落實對於被害人的保護所以這一塊我覺得我們的想法就是一樣但是在死刑這一塊來說其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
24703.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
24729.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
我看到的想法是真的比較不一樣尤其是我看到這次憲判8號他裡面完全沒有一個字去討論到這個被害者或被害者家屬的部分他通篇討論的都是被告要如何保障那我也想請問一下老師請問您認同這樣子的憲法判決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
24732.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
24758.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
確實如果我們從科刑的角度來看我們憲法五七條的科刑的因素裡面包含他犯罪的結果、犯罪後的態度那這裡面其實我覺得說應該列入被害人的感情在裡面那這個部分其實它也可以作為一個最嚴重的犯罪的犯罪情節的評估要不要判處死刑的考慮的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
24758.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
24779.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
那如果從這個角度出發的話那我認為這個部分或許也可以列進去我們省著判處可行是不是要克制署刑的量刑因子的判斷的範圍所以從這個觀點其實我個人是認為應該可以在強化被害人或被害人家屬 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
24780.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
24808.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
對科刑的陳述意見權的部分．可以再更進一步的強化．包含證據的提出．被害情感的評估等等的．那能夠呈現出來．讓法院比較多元的．來接觸到正反的證據之後．來做適當的科寫謝謝老師的說明．老師這段說明其實我也很希望．現判八人那15位大法官．能夠稍微聽一下．其實你的判決裡面忘記了被害人． |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
24809.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
24819.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
或被害人家屬這個判決其實說實在話我真的不覺得他是一個很完美的判決因為你應該要同時去思考在不同角度下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
24820.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
24820.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
24839.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
24860.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
憲判吧我覺得他在程序上面在正義上面還是有一些問題存在那另外我想請教老師一個問題就是因為我剛剛有提到嘛您其實也是一直倡議說被害人的訴訟參與權但是我看了您的資料裡面好像似乎老師沒有提到一個被害人的上訴權那我不知道老師您對 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
24861.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
24874.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
被害人如果我們讓他就被害者家屬啦就死者家屬對於判刑的刑度不滿意或者是怎麼樣他有一個上訴的權利而不是只能透過檢察官上訴我不知道老師您支不支持這個想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
24876.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
24902.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
我在我之前發表的文章對於要不要直接賦予被害人本身也有上訴權我是持保留的意見主要理由有兩個一個是目前我們書裡說您擔任過檢察官對這個部分您的也很長經驗基本上如果告訴人對判決不如請求檢察官上訴我們書上檢察官都會從這個角度為被害人的角度來提及上訴應該是絕大部分的情況都是這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
24903.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
24924.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
所以是不是直接在法律上面規定被害人有上訴權其實影響不大是其中之一第二個主要還是我覺得是被害人雖然他是最直接的利害關係人不過畢竟我們的第三條還是只有把檢察官跟被告列為是所謂的當事人另外我們不要忽略我們還有一個自訴制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
24924.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
24954.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
在知識制度被害人他委任律師提起自訴之後他就是當事人那他有訴訟的範圍的決定權對判決部他也有上訴權所以在整體的綜合考量之下我對於在檢察官起訴的公訴程序檢察官是當事人已經代表國家也會尊重告訴人的被害人的意見來行使追訴權的前提之下要不要再直接給被害人在公訴程序有上訴權我才會持比較保留的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
24954.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
24983.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
是,但是老師實務上面確實也有檢察官不願意上訴的案子不是100%檢察官都會聽從那個被害人的意見沒關係,因為我自己提出來的那個修法的草案裡面我是希望說讓家屬其實有一個上訴的權限另外我來請教一下老師就是說在憲判八他要求那個法官以自決這個部分我想因為有非常多人問您這個問題我是想請教一下因為就我個人的潛見我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
24985.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
25007.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
在憲法八裡面其實它侵害到立法院的權限了因為很多東西它不是由憲法法庭的憲判來去做出說做出這個侵害到立法權的這樣的判決那我想請問一下在您很多文章裡面都有提到各權限之間的制衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
25008.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
25028.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
那今天這個司法權也就是大法官的這個這個憲法判決他其實已經侵害到立法院的立法權啊他怎麼可以要求這個法官要一致決呢那我不知道老師您對這個想法是什麼我今天不是說這個東西對或錯或很多人都是問您這個影響有多大我今天單純是說他侵害到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
25029.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
25056.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
第一就是我認為他侵害到立法院的權限因為這個不應該由大法官來這麼說那再來他有沒有可能侵害到法官的獨立審判權我想請問老師你對這個看法是什麼是謝謝委員的這樣的提問那麼確實在近來對於憲判八所要求的一字決才符合所謂的最嚴密的正當法律程序有諸多不同的看法那我們如果從 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
25058.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
25059.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
我不討論最嚴重的犯罪這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
25086.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
25102.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
我今天說的是一致決的這個概念因為我為什麼要問這個因為我希望想要就任大法官的人他必須了解大法官的權限在哪裡什麼能做什麼不能做這就是大法官人選我們要必須審查的部分那今天大法官是解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
25103.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
25115.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
他是一個解釋的的的權限他是去了解法律跟現行的我們的憲法之間有沒有衝突他其實沒有一個造法的權限吧老師您認為呢大法官有沒有一個創設法條的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
25119.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
25136.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
應該講精準一點大法官他就是解釋憲法那基於維護權利分立跟基本人權的角度來做違憲審查對那至於說因為可能有人提到說司法積極主義的關係變成大法官在造法也有這樣的評價不過我覺得還是應該回到 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
25139.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
25139.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
25154.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
25179.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
但大法官他沒有權利去﹑首升到立法權﹑或者是普通法院的法官獨立審判權限那今天他今天的作為﹑包括一致決的這個要求其實他這個都侵害到立法權阿如果今天要這麼做那應該由立法院來立法而不是由大法官來告訴你說你這個你要怎麼做你這個也是蠻離譜的阿所以我今天是覺得是這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
25180.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
25196.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我希望的大法官人選是能夠理解大法官能夠做什麼而不能做什麼那我今天沒有任何政治的思考在裡面我跟老師之間就是就專業到現在此刻為止我們這十幾分鐘下來我都是跟您討論專業所以在我的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
25197.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
25225.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
憲判八他就是一個非常嚴重很失職的大法官做出來的判決他今天我可以尊重大法官對於憲法任何解釋他所採取的立場都沒有關係但是今天如果侵害到立法權或者是法官的獨立審判權那就完全不對了就像老師您在很多文章都有提到包括這一次就是給您的那個資料你給我那個司法院給我的那些資料裡面您都有提到這個權限之間的彼此 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
25226.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
25235.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
自衡分立自衡之下怎麼可以讓大法官的手伸到其他五權之外的其他權這是我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
25238.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
25262.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
一時間的關係我想我也不要去問太多但是我跟老師報告一件事情其實上一次的憲判八其實惹出了很多實務上面無法解決的問題我已經多次在外面有講過至少我就想到了五個問題那這五個問題到現在很多人還是覺得無解很多實務的人或是很多真正懂操作的人完全覺得無解第一個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
25263.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
25271.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
這些人回歸到普通法院：變成被告之後根本不符合羈押要件老師您行訴你一定非常懂羈押要件逃亡篡政 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
25273.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
25297.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
就這兩個或是反復實施但是一個二三十年前的案子他根本沒有逃亡或篡證那這件回過頭去當作普通法院被告的時候您要如何羈押這是前的監判八大法官搞出來一個大麻煩實務上根本無解第二個即使回到普通法院法官也願意押他羈押期只有15個月但是現在的案子都要求重複的精神鑑定有的沒有的一大堆 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
25298.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
25327.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
趕到最後15個月根本不夠用所以4個月滿了以後你沒有辦法再押他他可能會放出來所以剛剛押不成就是一個問題就會放出來15個月超過也有可能放出來第三個問題是裡面有一些被告適用更久之前的假釋規定10年就可以假釋有的適用15年有的少數適用25年所以有一些人他在裡面已經積壓很久了他可以折抵一堆刑期那到最後變成他只要判無期律馬上就出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
25328.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
25356.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那再來收容天數可不可以則理行期這以後一定會有廢止團體幫他主張再來就是他回歸被告身份之後有沒有一些空窗期這也是問題因為時間關係我這邊跟老師報告就有這些問題這都是沒有實務經驗搞好謝謝吳委員也謝謝被提名人報告全院委員會對大法官被提名人陳運財尋答部分到此為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
25357.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
25368.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
謝謝陳被提名人：運財列席答詢報告全院委員會休息5分鐘休息之後進行對大法官被提名人王碧芳之詢問現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
25686.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
25698.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行審查大法官被提名人王碧芳之資格及是否事任相關事項現在請被提名人王碧芳女士說明時間為10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
25713.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
25733.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好我是王碧芳今天很榮幸以大法官被提名人的身分前來大院接受審查有關我的家庭、學歷及經歷請詳盡推薦書以及我的自傳今天請簡單重點說明並略加補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
25734.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
25760.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
我是臺大法律系及臺大法律研究所公法組畢業在學生時代因為修習行政法及憲法課程見聞先進之民主法治國家憲政發展的理論與實務反思當時國家尚在戒嚴國家權利未能真正分立人民權利不能受到充分的保障乃使之研究公法 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
25761.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
25786.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
並且在指導教授的建議及期許下參加司法官考試希望將來能夠擔任行政法院的法官保障人民的權利並確保國家行政權的合法行使我的碩士論文則是擔任法官以後才勉勵完成的題目是《憲法領域的廣播電視自由與廣播電視組織以德國法治為中心》 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
25787.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
25812.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我自80年6月起開始擔任法官．先後在臺灣桃園地方法院．以及臺北地方法院服務．辦理刑事及民事審判案件．各約4年及6年。91年11月經司法院領選改任為行政法院法官．學生時代所立的志願得以實現．乃更要求自己要做一個好的行政法院法官。 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
25813.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
25839.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
先後在臺北高等行政法院以及最高行政法院．辦理審判事務．個月11年以及6年以多．期間除審理一般行政訴訟事件外．也長期的辦理稅務以及土地徵收的相關事件。審理案件時．我實施以人權保障為理念．在任職臺北高等行政法院期間．所配置的合議前後提出了三件釋憲申請案． |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
25840.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
25868.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
個人所逐筆事先申請的《菸酒稅法》第21條以及《道路交通管理處罰條例》第37條第一項的違憲爭議前者經過大法官於97年間做成了釋字第641號的解釋並且依照憲法上比例原則 揭示禁止個案過科的原則現期修正後者則經過大法官以該項規定已經事後修正為由的決議不受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
25869.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
25882.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
此外 有關原住民族工作權保障法第24條第二項之違憲爭議．經大法官做成釋字第810號解釋．並再原用禁止個案過客的原則現起修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
25884.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
25898.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
又基於對弱勢勞工族群的關懷我在臺北地方法院服務期間自願辦理勞工專庭事件在臺北高等行政法院亦曾自願辦理包括勞工保險在內的社會保險專股事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
25900.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
25925.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
值得一提的是在102年間行政法院收到了大量來自於普通法院移送過來的有關勞工事務事件也就是著名的官場工人案當時行政法院法官對於該等案件是否屬於公法爭議見解分歧部分法官認為這是司法爭議而向司法院申請解釋審判權的歸屬並且停止訴訟程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
25925.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
25930.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
我擔任審判長的何怡婷也收到了臺北高等行政法院102年度數字1635號在內的其中5件 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
25935.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
25962.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
由我主筆第一件．並且經過和議庭評議同意．參著學者為此案提出的補償理論．認為該案所謂的貸款實施要點的制定．以及款項的撥給．是基於國家保護法制的不健全．主管機關未盡法定監督義務而生的補償責任而來．這是一個公法正義．應該予以實體審理．並且應該適用5年的公法上請求權時效． |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
25963.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
25981.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
乃於103年3月7日判決原告勞委會敗訴,其餘事件也是同此結論。宣判後,勞委會欣然接受敗訴的判決結果並表示不上訴,並在短短一週內承諾全面撤回其他對勞工上百件訴訟。 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
25983.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
26002.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
此外更進一步的決定將已經清償的所謂貸款全面的返還給人民終於使得此重大的社會爭議圓滿落幕此案也是我法官生涯中到目前為止自認影響國家社會最深遠的一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
26004.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
26019.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
我曾經三度即大概有6年的時間擔任司法行政工作。88年,我出自調司法院行政訴訟及懲截廳辦事,負責推動行政訴訟史上最大的變革,也就是二級二審。 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
26019.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
26035.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
的配套措施,撰寫辦案手冊。99年,再度叫行審廳辦事兼副廳長．負責推動行政訴訟三級二審的配套措施．以及因應法官法施行後司法院職務法庭的建制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
26037.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
26053.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
105年,我被任命為司法院大法官書記處的處長。書記處就是現在憲法法庭書記廳的前身,負責辦理一個超過25年沒有能夠修正通過的司法院大法官審理案件法的研究修正工作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
26053.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
26074.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
修正的重點包括將《大審法》名稱修正為《憲法訴訟法》大法官審理案件全面司法化採取裁判化以及法庭化的方式以嚴謹訴訟程序與法院性質的憲法法庭運作模式並且以裁判方式宣告審理結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
26075.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
26101.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
合理調降憲法審查案件的表決門檻．逐筆大法官寫明字．以有效提升審理案件的效能．並且引進了裁判憲法審查制度．使得大法官審查效力．能夠給予法院的確定終局裁判．提供人民完整而無缺漏的基本權保障．以及明定總統、副總統彈劾案件之審理規定等 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
26103.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
26130.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
107年3月底大審法修正草案．也就是憲法訴訟法的這個草案．送請大院審議．受到大院以及社會各界的高度關注．期間歷經大院多次的委員會審查．以及黨團協商．最後在107年12月18號．獲得三讀通過．我也立即著手憲法訴訟法執法．草案的研究草擬．以及未來憲法法庭的軟硬體的建置 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
26131.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
26153.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
綜上所述．個人具有憲法及行政法的學士專長．任職法官33年多．其中近20年辦理當事人一照為行政機關的行政訴訟審判．向來依據憲法及法律超出黨派之外．本與良心、超然獨立公正審判．又由於我曾經擔任大法官書記處處長近3年． |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
26155.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
26167.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
長期觀察、學習、釋憲實務．並且完成憲法訴訟法的修法任務．熟悉釋憲的法規、流程與要領．對於憲法訴訟審判的工作當可升任 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
26169.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
26186.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
以上簡單說明最後我要強調的是我現在被總統提名的司法院大法官一職與我現在所擔任的經總統任命的法官一職同樣是屬於行使司法權的憲法上的法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
26187.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
26216.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
本質上都是被動的依照一定程序．對於個案的憲法．法律或事實上的爭議．獨立、中立做成一個終極性的．權威性的憲法或法的宣告．兩者之間本質上並沒有不同．因此我如果獲得大院委員的同意．擔任大法官．我定當始終如一．恪遵憲法及法官法的規定．超出黨派以外． |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
26216.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
26221.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
依據憲法及法律獨立審判．不受任何干涉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
26250.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
26251.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
26268.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
26283.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
首先先恭喜那個被提名人王碧芳那恭喜您被提名為大法官而且是我們女法官協會所推薦的所以以下我就借過去釋憲的舊案想請教您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
26284.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
26303.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
第一件事不曉得您知不知道我們臺灣的選舉經費其實是民主國家裡面算相當高的其中又有一個選舉保證金超高我們以最近的2022年中選會的審議通過以直轄市長來講保證金就150萬直轄市議員保證金就20萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
26309.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
26336.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那我想跟您分享國際的經驗像德國很早就說保證金違憲所以法國、德國、義大利是沒有保證金制度那2017年加拿大也宣告保證金制度違憲那加州呢他其實可以用7000個連署就是選州長的話可以替代保證金那台灣跟倫敦的以台北市我們的保證金是台幣150萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
26337.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
26367.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
倫敦的薪資、工時跟物價我想您應該都知道很高那倫敦市長的保證金也只有40萬紐西蘭澳洲就是只有台幣1萬塊所以不曉得您認不認同這麼高額的保證金那其實它象徵著在台灣參選的權利就是並沒有平等那這樣子一個制度是不是違背憲法的平等權的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
26370.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
26375.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
關於這個保證金的制度﹖關於這個保證金是不是過高﹖是不是引起這個違憲的疑慮﹖在這個確實是曾經引起相當的爭議﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
26389.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
26402.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
那這個確實也會讓尤其是讓這個沒有就是說沒有足夠資歷的年輕人或是沒有財團支持或是說自己本身沒有資歷的這個年輕人會被相當的這個主決在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
26408.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
26409.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
26435.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
26437.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
我聽您的說明您的態度傾向於認為這的確是違反了憲法的平等權平等參政權我這樣講沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
26455.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
26460.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
我跟您提一下本人曾經拒絕繳納保證金後來一路打到釋憲我想這個過程非常的艱難但是非常的不幸打到釋憲之後最後我們的大法官用投票結果投票不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
26483.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
26509.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
所以我到最後能夠釋憲的案子大法官用投票的方式票數不足並沒有被受理那我覺得對於就是之前大法官的決定我覺得非常的遺憾因為他並沒有看到我們參政權就是第129條就是就有平等的精神那第7條中華民國人民無分男女宗教 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
26510.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
26531.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
總督階級黨派在法律上一律平等我想象徵我們在參政權上特別是年輕人或是資源不足的人他光是募款額度一定有差那繳交這麼高額世界來比較高額的保證金的話那真的又特別不合理那我以這個為例希望未來的您如果擔任 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
26532.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
26559.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
大法官的話能夠對於這樣子的一個平等權相關的案件能夠更友善至少應該要受理然後好好的辯論這樣您同意吧委員我簡單補充一句我們這邊考慮到的這個平等權的疑慮是在憲法第7條平等跟憲法第129條那個平等是這個這種這個平等是兩件事情所以比較關注的是說是不是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
26560.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
26563.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我想不管是第7條第129條其實裡面都有平等兩個字第7條是總括性的 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
26577.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
26597.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
一律平等第129條特別針對參政權不管你們用的是第7條或是第129條否則我們看到加拿大跟德國是如何讓這樣子的一個保證金制度宣告違憲我想這部分我講的並沒有一律吧如果是您應該是會傾向於認同受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
26600.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
26614.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
現在的釋憲制度對於人民如果是基於人民來申請的話大概就是基本上要窮盡審計救濟途徑到最後才會去申請一個裁判憲法審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
26615.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
26616.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
我想知道您的基本態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
26633.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
26651.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那再來因為我知道您有女法官協會的推薦所以有性別庭要問您那不知道您了不了解我們112年的憲判一關於祭祀工業的派下員資格案那裡面提到就是祭祀工業條例規定無規約或違規未規定者 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
26654.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
26674.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
派下原為設立人及其男性子孫．我們大法官認為他排除女性．抵觸憲法第7條性別平等保障您對這個釋憲案的結果熟悉嗎這個釋憲案我是約略知道約略知道所以沒有很熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
26676.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
26687.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
那以你約略知道的．您認為以你現在請你評論這個事件案．你覺得它有就是說解決了．跟這個祭祀工業有關的性別平等的問題嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
26690.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
26705.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
這個問題要從制度面來先來從制度面來看那個憲法法庭的裁判就是有拘束全國各機關跟人民的效力那所以其實基本上來講就是我們應該去尊重這個判決的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
26707.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
26728.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
我們當然尊重,我現在是跟你意見交換。是,那麼如果要問我個人的意見。對,個人意見。因為這個祭祀工業,祭祀工業是一個就是從長久以來或是說從非常多年以前來的一個制度。 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
26728.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
26729.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
26746.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
26749.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那您認為就是112年的那個宪判一有達到性別平等的結果嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
26771.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
26773.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
您可以講有然後為什麼或者是沒有或者你要講75%有25%沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
26784.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
26809.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
其實身為女性我們其實都是長期以來其實是弱勢的一方當然在現在會因為這個這個各種性別的這個措施我們會漸漸的會朝向這個性別的平等性別的軍事這方面來走但是我剛才要講的是我要講的是說因為這個技師工業是一個古早的就是一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
26811.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
26834.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
的制度他的考量當時的一個考量那是基於一個對當時的考量我們都知道但是現在已經是2024年那這個也是去年的事情這是一個很新的決定那我想問您個人滿不滿意就是112年現判一的就是那個案子的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
26835.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
26840.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
您覺得他的結果您算滿意是不是不能算很滿意那不能算滿意你不滿意的點在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
26855.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
26858.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
還有差距喔那我非常肯定您這樣講那您可以稍微說明是在哪裡還有差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
26871.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
26873.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
規定可以用規約去排除女性 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
26902.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
26929.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
基本上我們婦女團體是肯定有這樣的解釋案但是我們認為他只有處理部分違憲沒有真正解決問題算是違德不足那就是看每個人結果可能我覺得這個有三分之一還大有問題有人覺得一半大有問題那是往前走一步那這裡面我們看到男性的法官黃昭元大法官就很明確的寫一個不同意見書他認為就像您講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
26931.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
26955.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
這裡面只有說就是沒有規約的可是有規約的祭祀工業占三分之二所以其實只處理了三分之一本來沒有規約的祭祀工業不能再排除女性的參與資格跟權利那只處理有規約的真的是違德不足的依照黃昭元大法官的講法叫做巨賤式判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
26956.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
26981.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
那婦女新知就長期倡議婦女平權的團體他認為肯定部分違憲但是祭祀公約在這個解釋之後只要自定規約自定規約我只限男性參與的話男性派下員那不就等於合法化了只准男性的父系繼承的這個既定的利益嗎?形同大開後門 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
26982.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
27006.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
所以我們認為這個解釋雖然有往前走一部分可是還是違反了性法第7條性別平等保障的一個祭祀的權益那CEDAW第5條消除基於性別而分尊卑觀念或基於男女任務定型所產生的偏見他其實也違反了這個我們國家簽署的CEDAW那我很肯定你剛剛這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
27007.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
27023.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
未來希望如果您當選之後關於相關的議題可以更勇敢更直接的那如果不是多數的話至少應該如同黃昭元大法官勇敢的表達就是不同意見書好嗎那當然我希望你的意見可以成為多數 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
27025.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
27049.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
那我知道您在履歷中也有為我們勞工爭取過相關的權益那我非常的肯定那一個跟勞工跟性別有關的過去的釋憲案也請教您不知道您熟不熟悉釋字第807號原本勞基法第49條第一項有限制女性勞工夜間工作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
27050.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
27072.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
有規範必須經過工會或勞資會議協商有做相關的安全等安排那大法官認定直接失效那原因就是說這個違反了性別平等侵犯了女性工作權所以它是違反憲法的第7條平等權請問您認同大法官的這個事先案嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
27076.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
27095.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
這個案是這個勞工限制女性勞工夜間工作的案件其實會牽涉到我們行政法院的這個審判的審判的實務那這個釋制第807號基於這個平等權的這個觀點來來這個宣告直接宣告失效就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
27098.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
27125.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
當然就是這個結論我們是要去尊重我先表明但是它就是實際上還有一個問題就是說有人這麼講是這個案件裡面是不是其實是對於名為保障那實際上是其實是有一點反而是幫倒忙就是也有這樣的說有人認為這個是幫倒忙這個事件案那您認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
27128.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
27153.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
我認為說呢這個其實原來勞基法是9條第一項那這個禁止女性夜間工作其實有他的考量有他的考量那這個當然也有人認為說女性現在是已經是就是在各行各業裡面我們都有一個這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
27156.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
27182.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
我了解您的意思因為時間有限如果您是處理的大法官您會建議這個案子要怎麼處理這個釋憲案怎麼處理因為他現在是讓他49條第一項違憲宣告違憲直接失效那如果是你會怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
27187.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
27207.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
這個還真的蠻難處理的因為從平等權這樣推論過來就是說大法官這樣處理好像也非常有他的論據非常有他的論據然後如果要去說這個49條第一項沒有違反平等權的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
27214.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
27223.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
處理方式是不是可以有不同?不要直接宣告失效那可以怎麼做呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
27224.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
27225.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
27240.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
27240.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
27258.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
27285.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
那我也希望你未來更勇敢的把這樣的講法講清楚了就如同你講的這原本夜間工作對所有不分性別的男女身體都是很大的傷害那原本他好像在雨中為女性勞工撐了一把傘讓他可以經由協商得到比較好的交通安全各種保障也可以拒絕可是呢大法官認為這是性別不平等把這個傘拿掉了結果讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
27285.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
27286.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
這個部分呢：而且我們回來查這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
27307.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
27336.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
當時其實是資方來釋憲他是家樂福跟華航的資方因為衛金工會同意女性勞工夜間工作被地方政府多次開罰那我想這個部分就是如果沒有更完整的進步的修法的話那事實上就直接失效完全就讓男女性勞工的健康權一樣都沒有保障如果我們看國際勞工組織夜間工作所產生的危險 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
27336.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
27354.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
是就男性跟女性無差別所以雇主行業間工作要有先決條件健康檢查政策強調有日間選擇工作的權利還有公時工資優惠這些附帶條件大法官都完全沒有做出就立刻生效我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
27355.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
27378.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
這是一個就是非常危險可能會造成男女夜間工作都沒有保障的狀態那所以我想這個形勢平等必須要看他最後的結果那希望您剛剛的發言未來能夠更勇敢大聲的講出那至少我想這次大法官中您是少數有被就是官場勞工發生過的我們看到您的記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
27379.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
27401.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
最後一題是放眼未來剛剛都是請你評論已經發生的事件案不曉得您知不知道有一件案子今年3月憲法法庭已經受理就是關於未成年性侵案的追溯期應該要自成年起算為什麼這樣因為我們目前相關的法律沒有去區分 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
27402.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
27418.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
而時遭到性侵的追溯期那依照澳洲皇家調查委員會如果是而時遭性侵平均要24年才能夠首次說出受害的經驗所以現在這個追溯期讓很多成年後 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
27419.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
27442.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
不管是覺醒或者比較有勇氣還是得到療癒的他完全失去了在法律上追溯加害人的這個權利那現在婦女團體已經提出來今年3月憲法法庭也受理了那我期許憲法法庭能夠勇敢做出具有性別意識對兒少弱勢的處境有真正關懷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
27443.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
27471.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
那當然以剛剛的為例那我認為一個表面上性別平等的考量最後造成性別平等的不受保障的結果千萬不能發生那未來呢憲法法庭是不是可以自行進行你們跟性別至少性別有關的解釋案的性別影響評估才能夠保障你們所做的每一個事件案真的讓台灣社會往性別平等的路大步向前 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
27476.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
27482.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
好,謝謝范委員、謝謝被提名的人下一位請鄭天才委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
27503.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
27529.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
主席、副院長有請王備提名人請備提名人答詢你好委員好你好嗎的意思好今天我們審查大法官備提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
27531.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
27559.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
我們看這個憲法很清楚憲法第62條立法院為國家最高立法機關由人民選舉之立法委員組織之代表人民行使立法前尤其是法律案的制定而我們的憲法增修條文第12條對於修憲的門檻非常的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
27561.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
27589.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
要四分之三的立法委員的的決議不僅僅是四分之三的立法委員而且還要經過公民投票附解是不是這樣所以我們看這個憲法第78條司法院解釋憲法並有統一解釋法律及命令之前是解釋憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
27592.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
27619.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
所以在做相關的違憲的審查的時候不應該一頁立法委員、立法院的立法簽而我們看這幾年幾個重大的這些解釋大法官的解釋都被批評為造反甚至修憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
27621.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
27647.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
甚至修憲 等下會再跟你做一個討論所以大法官不應造法 不應修憲不應一頁立法院的立法權跟修憲權尤其是修憲這還要經過人民的公投覆決我們看這個113年憲判之第8號最有爭議的這個廢除死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
27650.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
27678.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
雖然沒有完全廢除但是對於有幾條刑法的條文認為違憲而且相關的機制還要從你看還要什麼我們就以判決主文的第6條科處死刑之判決應經各級法院和議庭法官一致解而且還沒有修法之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
27679.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
27705.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
就要求法官你就要一字結了這個就是一頁的立法院的立法權你的意見如何委員關於這個宪判制113年宪判8號這個判決本身當然就是基於這個宪法訴訟法38條 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
27706.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
27709.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
事實上如果這個案子要做公投絕對不會過高達83%的民眾不贊同廢除事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
27737.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
27764.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
所以這個部分呢這樣的一個幾次的判決之後因為你之前在大法官的書記處當處長現在是嗎現在是最高行政法院的法官你之前在那邊你也推動了這個憲法訴訟法對不對所以這個憲法訴訟法顯然需要去檢討以這最近的幾個判決來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
27767.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
27790.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
大法官的實體判決跟憲法訴訟法的程序規定這是兩件事情我知道但是相關的這些規定絕對有影響我們就看這個好接下來看這個103年4月18號釋制第719號對於原住民族工作權保障法 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
27792.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
27813.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
當時的大法官．上無違背憲法第7條平等原則及第23條比例原則．以憲法第15條保障之財產權及其工作權之內涵．之營業自由之意旨．並無不符當時的大法官．然後會因為大法官的一個． |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
27816.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
27839.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
思維不同、見解不同又改變了這你的報告裡面有提到110年10月8號釋字第810號就變成對人民受憲法第15條保障之財產權所為限制顯不符相當性而有違憲法第23條比例原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
27842.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
27867.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
前面103年的時候沒有過了7年因為大法官不同、見解不同就改變了這樣的一個而且規定重點是你可以經過民國90年制定的工作權保障法研究民主工作權保障法經過多年之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
27868.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
27870.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
委員這件案子我可以說明一下嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
27890.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
27917.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
請說這件案子齁其實就是我們在行政法院在處在遇到這樣的一個這個貸金的案件裡頭就遇到這種採購法裡面那個小案件大公司大公司去接小案件那個對於這個貸金齁對於原住民齁被提名了我來說齁被提名了我沒有否認要修正但是你不可以當然不是你啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
27918.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
27937.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
大法官不可以直接一頁立法前．你可以請立法院或相關機關．切實有不符比例原則要修．但是不可以直接就要求法院．這種案子你就要依本院的意旨． |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
27938.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
27957.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
還是有還是要經過修法修法還是交給立法前我的重點在這邊好不好因為這不是你判的了這個案子是我們何議廷申請的所以委員我再補充一句好不好我知道你的這個判決我都看了我都看了 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
27957.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
27962.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
對,我們完全肯定要對於原住民有很好的保障只是這一件就是他的這個貸金的金額已經超過他的採購案 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
27975.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
27979.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
原住民身份法106年8月8號行政院韓宋道立法院主要針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
28003.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
28021.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
平埔原住民納入在這個原住民身份法的草案裡面要列入106年8月8號行政院含送到立法院立法院經過內政委員會召開了多次的公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
28022.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
28042.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
然後立法院的內政委員會也審查完成審查107年12月24號完成審查你也知道第9屆的立法院當時的立法院民進黨絕對多數而且是行政院送來的法案對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
28043.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
28070.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
但是第9屆從107年內政委員會審查到109年1月31號立法院民進黨團絕對多數的民進黨團都沒有把他列入要二讀三讀的這個議案裡面所以就沒有完成三讀成績第10屆的立法院109年到113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
28074.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
28103.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
行政院就沒有再送來至少在第109年沒有送來110年也沒有送來但是呢司法院大法官在111年現判之第4號針對剛才講的那個原住民身分法第二條平埔原住民這個部分這是另外一個你看看這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
28104.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
28131.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
相關的這個部分就做了這樣的一個判決所以我要講的是說原住民身份法涉及到原住民他是不是原住民 對不對要尊重原住民主你要知道原住民身份法的立法的歷程我跟你講我那時候是演民會的處長負責這個業務 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
28134.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
28162.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
我要把原住民身份認定標準提升為法例的位階以前是認定標準提升為法例的位階在草擬的過程當中我們委託政治大學的民族研究所去做徵詢深度訪談原住民族包括我們的立法委員當時的前任的立法委員也做了部落的訪談 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
28164.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
28193.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
經過這樣的一個深度訪談之後再經過相關的寫者的一個審查提供意見然後草擬了草案這個草案在園民會有族群委員這些族群委員各族都有來審查然後送到行政院行政院都沒有動喔尊重園民會的族群委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
28195.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
28222.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
然後送到立法院民國89年送到立法院立法委員也有版本經過立法委員的審查之後三讀通過是這樣的一個歷程誰既被原住民身份誰不是應該是怎麼樣應該是要尊重原住民族因為聯合國原住民族權利宣言第33條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
28224.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
28249.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
原住民族有權按照其習俗及傳統決定自己的身份或歸屬。憲法增修條文第10條第12項也規定國家因應民族意願保障原住民族之地位所以這個部分聯合國的原住民族權利宣言跟憲法增修條文都有這樣的一個規定我們看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
28252.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
28279.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
111年的憲判之第17號的主文特別規定這裡面就是談到平埔原住民的部分平埔原住民我剛有講對不對行政院主動要修這個原住民身份法立法院經過多次的審查之後而且民進黨絕對多數他仍然不認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
28281.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
28305.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
行政院的版本所以沒有讓他二讀三讀是這樣就是在尊重當時的原住民身份法的立法的過程原住民主的意見然後呢做這樣的一個111年憲判之第17號的主文這裡面就說違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
28307.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
28336.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
違憲而且還要定時間如果還定時間而且這三年內沒有修的話就直接就可以起得原住民身份這就是一頁的立法權不只是一頁立法權我告訴你而且也一頁了立法院的修憲權為什麼呢民國81年修憲的時候有兩個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
28338.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
28366.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
有兩個提案是要把平埔族納入到憲法所謂的三包裡面但是表決沒有通過不同意83年三包修正為原住民的時候也有一個提案就是要把平埔族納入到所謂的原住民原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
28368.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
28395.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
經過審查之後表決不通過表決多少?四分之三啊!四分之三的表決啊!國民大會啊!就跟現在一樣啊!四分之三啊!四分之三的表決不通過而現在﹐大法官﹐幾位大法官﹐沒有人民的﹐沒有參採﹐也沒有問原住民主啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
28397.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
28423.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
你沒有遵循原住民主就說違憲這不是修憲嗎大法官就竟然做了修憲的一個一頁的憲法對於司法院你只有解釋憲法現在不只是修造法而且還修憲你認為這樣是不是修憲因為當初有討論國民大會有討論這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
28430.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
28435.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
請問大法官對於憲法有解釋的權利當然就是說在 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
28436.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
28457.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
是因為憲法的條文．即使我們有憲法增修條文．條文還是非常的少．所以大法官就要依照他的這個．就是根據他所調查的．所有的立法資料．所有案件的資料去解釋．去充實那個憲法規定的意義 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
28459.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
28482.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
所以大法官的解釋是有豐富憲法意涵但是跟修憲應該還是有距離的應該不能稱為修憲這樣子這是修憲因為當初在國民大會確實討論了平埔族要不要納入 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
28483.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
28512.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
而且是經過表決討論之後經過表決四分之三的決議不通過所以這個部分這個大法官可能沒有去了解過去的歷史背景而且最重要的就是沒有遵循原住民主的意見我給你讓貝提敏了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
28516.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
28540.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
從清朝開始：可能清朝更早就有了：我是沒有那個資料：至少清朝：生番熟番的劃分：就很明確了：而且：定在法例裡面：清朝的法例：大清粒粒：明業界入生番地：事同出道：入官善： |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
28542.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
28565.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
生番地就是生番,就算熟番要進去也不行所以相關的這些規定在清朝的規定裡面以至於到日本統治台灣也都是這樣生番熟番所以才後來在整個國民政府開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
28566.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
28590.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
也就是一直沿用從清朝到日本到國民政府就這樣劃分台灣很多的族群對不對很多閩南人他不認同他是漢人你知道嗎不認同他是中華民族我們都尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
28592.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
28619.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
我們是從清朝就開始了很多從過去這樣的一個情形之下當然要尊重原住民族的本身這是憲法包括這是聯合國原住民族權利宣言所規範的尤其是剛才我特別提到國民大會在修憲的時候就曾經討論貧苦族 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
28621.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
28649.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
是不是要納入所以大法官這個判決這個憲法法庭的判決是已經不僅僅是一頁了立法牆尤其是一頁了立法院的修憲牆所以這個部分對原住民主的議題絕對要去尊重原住民主我曾經 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
28651.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
28678.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
因為上一屆沒有通過我現在徵詢你的意見我在上一屆因為剛才講的判決憲法法庭的判決我提案涉及原住民族族群集體前者應先徵詢原住民族議員我是希望在憲法訴訟法裡面能夠增加這樣的條文當然當時立法院民進黨絕對多數不可能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
28681.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
28708.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
你過去誠心朝你這個你的意見如何我認為憲法法庭審理任何案件都應該要廣納各方面的意見所以憲法法庭也常常在行言詞辯論甚至於包括請鑑定人還包括有法庭之友的制度那當然委員提的這個要去徵詢原族民族的意見是非常好的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
28709.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
28735.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
因為誰是中華民國的國民由中華民國來決定不可能由國際法庭來去決定一樣原住民主誰是原住民主謝謝曾委員謝謝貝提敏委員下一位請林國成委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
28755.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
28759.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
首先當然要恭喜各界推薦總統提名這是得來不易事實上本席對於你個人的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
28783.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
28811.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
那確確實實不管去你在當法官的時候當審判長的時候因為本席非常重視勞工之權利那勞工之權利啊也就是勞委會確確實實有一個工廠關門的失業這個案子是你審的但是你站在勞工合理以及權利保障的立場判勞委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
28813.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
28829.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
是那個輸的所以這個案子從這裡可以看得出來你基本上關關相負通常人家認為老百姓認為啊一個法官尤其是行政法院是關關相負的機會是 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
28833.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
28861.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
非常濃的但是你有很多的訴訟包括我台北市的文明宴的都更案也是你經手那這個你都確保都更案的這些權益所以基本上我收集你很多資料那基本上大家對你還是正面的肯定跟看法所以這點我是覺得應該是要恭喜你 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
28862.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
28879.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
另外一個我們雖然不是寫法例但是我也不曉得你們寫法例的人那個天平他到底是象徵什麼意義來這象徵公平的意義啊象徵公平的意義對 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
28880.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
28903.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
那大家我們院會裡面同仁每一個都問他大家都答得出來可是有時候在判決的時候那更何況是在大法官那大法官現在我們幾乎啊在立法院憲法要修改幾乎是藍上加拿因為要四分之三 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
28904.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
28930.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
那更何況在整個現在我們中華民國的憲政體制之下要修憲是非常懶的但是就是只有15位法官就是這本中華民國的憲法是由大法官來解釋所以這個大法官啊他不但是對於憲法的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
28931.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
28948.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
也如同剛才鄭委員所講還兼憲法的創造者所以我坦白講我對於大法官非常尊重但是最近看他做憲法的解釋我真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
28949.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
28978.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
也不敢相信大法官這麼崇高的地位可以有力有有的思想跟政治執政者的打手這個我蠻希望但是我看到我們王備提名人過去在行政法院的作為當然燃起一絲希望才有辦法來跟你談這些啦那我還是真的要鼓勵我們王備提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
28979.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
29007.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
你的所作所為要對得自己的良知還有天平的公平我希望你要繼續貫徹下去所以這點我要啟齊我們王貝提名人我們大家都知道我們翁業生前院長我相信這個也是你老師吧他是我的碩士論文的指導教授那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
29008.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
29029.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
翁岳昇院長他確確實實我記得我看你的報導他好像對你對你有一個啟示讓你啟發很重要也就是鼓勵你出國進修還有進入什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
29030.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
29033.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
所以王沛提名人你看看我多認真啊看你的這些自傳也好或什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
29058.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
29084.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
除了翁業生院長他鼓勵你除了出國進修要進入實體的實體界也就是進入判決的實體界那這樣的話當然就跟整個民意跟老百姓的權利就不會脫節所以基本上我看來看去現在所有提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
29086.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
29110.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
只有你有實體工作的經驗其他都是寫者專家真正法官出身的是只有你所以這個部分當然我們對你是有所啟示但是在這裡我就要比較有疑問我們大家都知道現在就喜中立老師這個也是你老師吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
29112.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
29133.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
許中立老師是我這個可以說是憲法的啟蒙老師真正的啟蒙老師然後也是我的碩士論文的口試委員但是我必須要提醒我必須要提醒我尊重王倍提名人你在法界裡面是有一定崇高的素養 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
29134.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
29149.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
但是在整個做人處事方面或許是我們這些民意代表是接觸的比較多但是我必須要提醒你有些老師是好老師有些是壞老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
29150.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
29174.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
那我不敢講從你嘴中講出來在我們的認知上面翁業生院長翁業生老師當然他是一個好老師為什麼他在做任何事情的時候他是不會搶錢的他是堅持他的理念解釋憲法的時候有他自己本身的gas |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
29175.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
29196.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
所以你看看他在當院長的時候他不會隨便亂解釋嘛那現在我們喜中立啊你的老師我們現在看起來從現在憲法的解釋包括國會改革包括廢死的議題一塌糊塗老百姓看不出 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
29198.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
29210.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
這個大法官是怎麼解釋這個院長是怎麼去領導這些大法官不知道所以我特別要提醒也就是我們提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
29212.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
29235.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
這裡要特別去小心我希望老師給你的都是啟蒙但是你自己要有主張天平精神不能忘老師好的要學習老師不好的絕對不能學習所以如果你進了司法院當大法官以後我還是鼓勵你 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
29236.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
29252.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
一定要秉承你們天平之精神做到公平對就是對不對就不對不能因為執政的就影響你們的判決這樣的話一聲英明要悔疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
29252.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
29254.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
29272.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
29300.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
給我們王提名人本來是好好的一個法官那我希望如果通過以後做了大法官你還是法官起來做一個好的大法官這個我要再度再請我們王提名人這裏一定要牢記的好我們大家都知道現在會史真的老百姓看不懂什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
29301.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
29328.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
事實上他說不違憲但是實質又會死我請教提名人今天高等法院剛判出來也就是新竹這個輪胎店的縱火案在我們老百姓看起來一家八條人命 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
29329.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
29358.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
他們怎麼可以第1宴也判死刑高宴就依照你們的視線的部分他去判他什麼這明明就是泯滅人性根本就是什麼根本就是喪失病狂的這些人自己的親人三等親還可以去縱喉就只有一句話說我想救他那就可以死裡回生 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
29359.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
29378.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
王提名你針對今天喔 立宴已經判死刑但是高宴依照這些東西去判他無期徒刑你想一想這種 現在的這種解釋真的吧 都是在保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
29380.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
29403.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
保護加害人根本就喪失被害人的酸甜苦辣跟他的痛苦完全沒有顧所以我要聽聽因為這是會死的第一個案子然後判處他無期徒刑王貝提名人你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
29404.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
29405.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
29422.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
29449.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
好 我也不為難你啦但是我只是把基層聲音讓你們了解有朝一日你當了大法官以後真的我還是老化遺跡天平的精神非常重要公道良治也非常重要你要去考慮到真的法律當中雖然有所堅持但是請你不要忘記像這類是廢時之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
29453.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
29476.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
他第一個案子不是只有這樣現在球中裡面還有37名也陸陸續續判5個死刑判10個死刑到最後不管你是非常上訴也好不管你是什麼樣的救濟也好到最後都是判無期徒刑所以我只是讓你我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
29477.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
29493.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
你也是一個正常的人我們將心比心如果老百姓依照這種情形家裡面被害者這麼非常慘的情況之下那最後得到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
29493.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
29512.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
是一個無期徒刑那過去人家在講這個借錢還錢那殺人償命那很奇怪的啊為什麼現在真的時代轉變那時代轉變憲法該修的來修啊可是不修的情況那個莫名其妙這個我們這個第8號字說實在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
29519.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
29547.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
你會死就會死合憲但是實質會死這是造成人家被害者是第二度的傷害所以我說實在你針對個案不表示意見可是事實擺在眼前啊新竹這個輪胎電縱火案就是這樣啊所以老百姓真的情何以堪所以學憲法的一定要很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
29548.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
29571.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
會時就會時,合憲就合憲應該是要很明確啊雖然是一個個案但是你也可以去把它歸納出來說這種東西那我也知道你是對於會時在整個合憲的精神上面你基本上你是只要憲法未改 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
29573.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
29601.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
那死刑未改那不要像其他的大法官說實在的會死就很明確會死嘛你為什麼要什麼八道關卡還有這個要一字結那你們要一字結那我請問一下那我請問一下這個一字結在你們在你們法律術以來原來本來就沒有這些因為他有很多人情事物的判別 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
29602.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
29614.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
那你們現在一致解那以後判死刑都要一致解那請問一下這些你針對這些一致解的看法你可以表示意見嗎 黃提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
29618.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
29640.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
這個113憲判第8號所講的這個一致決那這個也是有所本的那在這個像美國他這個很多的這個幫的這個對於陪審團的判決關於這個有罪或是說對死刑的判決確實是要求一致決所以在立法例上是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
29641.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
29655.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
有案可循的有立法例可循的那如果是未來我們立法院把它修改你們如果要解釋憲法也要一致解請問一下你們可以接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
29658.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
29685.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
好啦 你也不要打啦 我也不要圍欄你啦我也不要圍欄你那如果我們把它修改 你們也要移植解捏所以我說實在 你們都是時常啊拿著一個憲法的保障阿就是自創這些你們高興的東西迎合這些當前派這是不對的一個大法官不是這樣所以我剛才為什麼說翁業生院長是好老師喜中立老師根本不是好老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
29687.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
29693.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
委員我正在要替徐老師講一下話剛才委員一開始所肯定的我那個官場工人的補償案 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
29694.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
29723.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
那個就是徐老師提出來的理論那個補償的理論那個時候他還沒有變壞王提名人是事後當了院長以後他才變壞的你去問問你不要替他辯護沒有用民調出來百分之八十幾認為他當院長的時候前兩年還OK後六年根本都說不行的這我公開的敢批評他真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
29724.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
29753.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
你去做個民調習中立給人家什麼感覺前兩年是一個崇高地位後6年完全是走樣這個我們也不要去探討我只是要勉勵你好老師多聽他的話壞老師不要去學習他的這個壞習慣最後時間還有限我要請教一下也就是說4至585也解釋立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
29754.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
29781.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
跟監察院各有職者的調查權那我就感覺到很奇怪啊這次這個國會改革的釋憲案出來你們是一塌糊塗這些東西我練給你聽喔585幾乎全部推翻掉請問一下以前的大法官所做的釋憲現在的大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
29782.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
29790.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
把他推翻掉你認為這種矛盾現象未來你當大法官如何去防止 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
29791.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
29815.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
從制度面來看,憲法解釋之後還是可以採取變更或補充的方式所以從制度面來講,後面的裁判去變更或補充前面的解釋或裁判在制度上是完全被容許的 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
29816.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
29821.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
是容許沒錯啦但是同樣一個解釋法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
29822.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
29851.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
這裏面不要忘了 洗中立也是大法官所以我練給你聽 他們都笨蛋 你們是最聰明現在的大法官是最聰明我為什麼要叫你不要跟他學壞是因為我在看 他在當院長的時候把你調來當行政官長的處長所以我怕你變壞 也不要替他貶負這是老百姓的認知第一 人家迴避的是翁業生跟陳仲武 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
29852.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
29877.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
但是那一次做585解釋出來的主席是林永某他還是法官王和雄、謝在泉、賴英照、倚寫明、曾有田、廖益蘭、楊仁壽、習碧芙、彭鳳之、林子怡、喜中立、喜義秀我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
29879.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
29886.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
王提名人我跟你講這些人半數都你們實質法官出身的 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
29886.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
29914.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
所以他們不會亂搞嘛他不會亂搞所以我也不需要你去做解釋而是585既然同樣大法官做解釋我同意你可以更改可是時空黃金一樣啊他們的認知本來立法院就有立法的調查權啊還有監察院有監察院的調查權跟彈劾權啊這本來解釋的很清楚你們這次解釋出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
29917.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
29945.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
時代不一樣你們就可以這樣解釋所以我還是希望真的滿期待我們王提名人能夠在這個部分好壞院長你都跟過我希望你是要秉持好的院長的理念不畏強權堅持自己法協的公道天平的精神要這樣好不好這個應該可以做得到吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
29947.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
29973.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
會記得這個委員的期許這本來就是這樣好不好因為做大法官不要學壞的大法官要好的大法官要天平的主持正義的大法官這樣的話說實在這才是真正大法官嘛這個欸吳聰可以講說這是最崇高的大法官欸怎麼自己做賤呢所以我認為現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
29977.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
29984.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
好 謝謝林委員 謝謝被提名人下一位我們請陳培宇委員詢問好 謝謝主席那有請被提名人還是你要先喝口水請完被提名人有請被提名人 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
30011.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
30039.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
王貝提名人您好我想就今天非常多委員都跟您提到了那你也表達了很多你對法律的見解跟關懷那我們辦公室長期以來都會關注跟兒少有關的議題那我不確定是不是您所熟悉的但是我想我今天想要就一個目前被最多家長跟老師團體當然還有包含很多兒少團體都在討論的議題也就是在上個禮拜行政院宣布為了符合聯合國兒童權利公 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
30040.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
30042.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
我不曉得您知不知道這個法條之前的寫法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
30063.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
30087.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
不過呢這個修法的公文跟相關的新聞稿呢一出爐那就引起很多家長團體的反彈他們的說法是說呢拿掉這個懲戒權好像家長就沒有權利可以管教小孩了那可是法務部當然有他們自己的說法而且事實上台灣在面臨符合兒童權利公約的這個精神底下確實我們在國際 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
30088.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
30111.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
審查的時候已經被多次提醒那監察院人權委員會也有提出提醒所以其實法務部這個修法其實是經過了非常多年的討論跟有相關的法理背景所以我們做出這個修法可是家長的抗議跟家長的反對我們大概可以想像家長擔心的是會不會從今以後我沒有辦法管我自己的小孩了 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
30111.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
30112.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
關於提名人,您如何定義家長懲戒權? |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
30130.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
30148.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
憲法沒有就家長的懲戒權就任何的這個定義看法只是確實如剛才委員所說的在這個因為我們最近剛好有審到一件這個兒童兒童的案件那就是在兒童權利公約裡面確實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
30150.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
30153.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
實務工作現場的經驗：確實這個觀念也是現在的法官：跟大部分在法務系統工作人所理解的： |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
30167.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
30182.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
那雖然沒有談到懲戒權的定義可是我認為對於相關的界限還有就是說假設今天有家長他們真的就認為如同他們記者會所提到的他們認為這個侵害到家長的懲戒權你自己怎麼看這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
30189.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
30214.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
尤其是您剛剛說保障兒童的身心正向發展這件事情絕對是我們在做出很多相關案件的處置的時候最重要的參考原則那如何在兼顧兒少的權益同時也兼顧家長的管教權這件事情您在實務現場或者是在未來假設在您擔任大法官的工作類似的案件您怎麼看待這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
30217.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
30227.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
基本上來講我還是覺得這個根據這個兒童權利公約那兒童是這個保護的主體當然還是要以兒童 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
30228.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
30228.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
您認為家長的侵權跟教養權有被剝奪嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
30254.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
30278.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
親權跟教養權是沒有被剝奪只是說那個懲戒的那個字拿掉之後是不是家長覺得他完全的沒有辦法去適當的去教養他的小孩那委員這件案子這個問題就會涉及到說我們常常在講的就是說這個包括這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
30280.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
30280.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
張文貞議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
30300.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
30316.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
告訴你就是這樣拿去還是說從程序面來看這是美國學者的理論程序面就是說除非你立法者到了一個制度完全失靈的程度的時候就是事件者才要出手 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
30316.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
30323.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
這就是一個在憲政跟民主之間一個糾結、互相抗爭的一個困難的題目。我想這樣的一個問題可能要經過一個充分的民主的思辨。 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
30344.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
30354.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
我相信假設這個民法1085未來在我們立法院通過之後我相信可能不用太久我們也許真的就會遇到類似的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
30355.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
30373.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
尤其是如果參考日本跟韓國的修法確實他們在修法過後整個社會也確實造成了非常多的討論那我相信日本跟韓國的國情跟我們台灣是比較接近的不管是我們整個考試環境或是整個社會文化的背景那我相信這個議題絕對是您未來擔任大法官務必要開始研議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
30377.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
30400.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
尤其是你剛剛說過他到底是抗多數的困境還是程序面的這個問題我認為非常多的實質討論那再加上兼顧社會民情還有相關的需求但是又不要忘了兒童權利公約在在提醒我們的事情我認為這個問題我就先拋出來今天跟你做簡單的討論喔但我認為這個問題可能也許很快就會真的有機會發生變成一個社會要討論的公共議題因為這確實會有權利衝突的問題好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
30405.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
30426.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
這個部分我就先跟您討論到這邊那接下來我想跟您討論的一樣是比較跟憲法有關那在這個前一陣子有一個統戰紀錄片是一個叫做網紅八炯的人他所製作然後拍攝的那這個拍攝主角之一這個是一個饒舌歌手他叫閩南郎 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
30426.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
30447.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
他其實在紀錄片當中分享了他曾經到中國去拍攝影片、製作歌曲歌頌中國多麼美好然後相關的影片當然是對著台灣的觀眾做發送當然也還包含他們中國我不知道被提名人你有沒有看這個紀錄片沒有完全沒有看沒有看過那有看到類似的新聞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
30449.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
30450.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
中國為了對台灣進行所謂的文化跟資訊的統戰過往有所謂的買辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
30466.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
30488.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
到了現在年輕人比較不吃這一套了他們發現年輕人都黏著在所謂的數位社群媒體平台上不管是YG、IG或是Youtube或是Facebook甚至更新的Trade或是各式各樣的社群媒體因此拍短片這件事情向台灣的年輕人喊話是一個很新而且相對便宜的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
30488.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
30514.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
但是他們做得不著痕跡﹖他們並不會讓大家做一個樣板戲﹖在螢光幕前拍一段話﹖歌頌中國的美好﹖而是藉由介紹中國旅遊﹖中國美食﹖中國文化景點﹖用非常軟性的訴求﹖製造出一種臺灣人對於中國認識的假象﹖就是你看中國很了不起﹖中國很進步﹖中國沒有你們說的這麼可怕﹖中國沒有極權﹖沒有這些問題﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
30515.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
30517.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
我想給您看一個20秒的影片,我們來看一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
30541.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
30559.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
這個東西,如果是牽涉到紀委的話,你的可能性非常低。很多東西估計都沒人感動得過。估計都沒人感動得過,搞不好。因為紀委的權益是大方的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
30561.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
30572.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
好在這個20秒當中的影片呢他所掛在牆上是送給海峽島報的很多這些中堂那這個海峽島報就是這個紀錄片裡面提到非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
30573.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
30592.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
面對臺灣這些網紅在中國的一個算是經紀人或是算是一個中間的管道可是我們後來看到他放出這個影片我想要問一下您認為我剛說這個統戰的問題如果我們回到臺灣自己的主體意識來看畢竟臺灣是一個自由民主的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
30593.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
30616.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
很多人都會認為像這樣子我剛說那個影片或者是像這樣參與兩岸中國這些活動大家都認為這是一種言論自由是一種行動自由可是我認為如果當我們的言論自由行動自由他如果跟保護國家安全維護憲政體制產生衝突的話這個界線到底要如何去界定 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
30619.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
30626.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
以我剛描述那個紀錄片的影像您稍微做一下想像我相信相關的新聞您也看過不少就算沒有看過這個紀錄片 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
30629.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
30650.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
有具體發生個案了嗎?所以你完全都不知道類似的事情?不知道我記得是一位檢察官他當時在判過有一個國安的案子就是有台灣的軍人也好或是公務員他們也拍攝了一些他們在工作中的資料然後洩密給中國 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
30651.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
30680.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
他到底要用什麼樣的罪法來罰這個相關的行為他到底有沒有涉及所謂的外患罪因為如果一旦涉及外患罪他的構成要件是相對困難的可是他如果只是用洩露業務機密那或是國安法裡面可能就相對罪行是比較輕的那所以呢之前有一個檢察官他在遇到類似的案件他認為法官輕判了他甚至還有寫萬言書、投書那我要談的是就像這樣的案件其實在台灣越來越多不管是他是透過所謂的網紅年輕網紅拍片 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
30682.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
30683.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
臺灣人宣傳中國的美好 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
30703.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
30720.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
大法官被提名了你如何看待言論自由、行動自由跟所謂國家安全憲政體系維護的界限就算您沒有相關的案例你應該可以想像這幾年台灣所面臨中國統戰的危機您不會一個事情都不知道吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
30721.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
30741.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
是,那個,就是就這個個案的部分,就請委員見諒,我是……沒問題,統戰紀錄片沒看過,沒問題。不是,我是現職法官,剛才聽您的提示,這應該是細數中的案件,所以我不便評論。那,當然是……我剛剛說的並不是相關案件,它已經結案,已經結束了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
30744.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
30744.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
30760.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
30787.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
我其實要問的並不是這個因為在相關的法規範裡面其實你們的相關司法界大家已經在討論了我要問的是如果這些標榜為言論跟行動自由的這些內容或是素材但我們擺明認為它看起來就有害台灣的國安體制、憲政體制對台灣整體體制是有害的你身為大法官你如何掐定那條界線你如何看待那個界線 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
30789.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
30816.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
如果是在事先案件裡面有這樣子當事人主張他的言論自由受到了限制的話那當然會做一個衡量那今天如果是他所受到的刑法或者是行政法是基於國家安全考量就會做一個基本權跟其他的公共利益的衡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
30818.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
30837.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
我這樣聽起來我覺得我還是沒有聽到一個比較清楚的答案不過沒關係我相信日後您進入相關的工作領域當中如果透過更多討論也許這個事情可以討論得更清楚可是我要跟您表明的是目前在台灣做這些事情的人其實並不是只有我剛剛說的那些網紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
30839.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
30861.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
很多的行為人他的身份其實非常的特別包含有很多教授他以學術研究之名帶了很多的研究生也好博士生也好整個研究團隊到中國去做學術交流但這個學術交流有沒有違反了相關台灣學術安全自由這個堡壘的界限還有很多商人 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
30862.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
30886.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
他在兩岸之間的來往他以做生意的名義但可能在做了很多事情其實也是有害台灣國安還有很多網紅就是我剛剛說在做這些事情甚至台灣有非常多的民意代表跟政治人物他們也在做類似的事情我要問的就是站在維護台灣國安體制跟憲政體制的這個界線上 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
30886.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
30915.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
大法官你如何看大法官被提名人您如何看這件事情我認為這個界線他難道不會因為行為人的身份不同而應該有不同的界線跟不同的標準嗎還是我們真的覺得只要在台灣高喊言論自由高喊行動自由我們就可以不用去在意跟不用去保護台灣的國家安全跟保護台灣的憲政體制大家用台灣的民主自由在踐踏台灣的民主自由但是卻在做 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
30917.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
30919.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
極權的想像所要他們做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
30920.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
30947.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
言論自由是基本權之一因為言論自由涉及到精神上的表現就是個人意志的表現是受到一個高度的保障不過我們憲法23條也有規定到這個基本權雖然受到保障但是如果基於有必要的情況下的話還是可以在立法院就是立法者國會可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
30948.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
30956.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
適當的法律予以限制當然這個限制就是要合乎憲法上的比例原則要基於這個重要的公義 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
30964.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
30982.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
好那我再接下來問你剛剛提到立法院嘛齁那目前在我們立法院其實也發生一個問題其實有相關的委員提出一個相關的修正法案認為立法委員到中國去必須要有所報備甚至呢相關要報備的案子在立法院的程序委員會就被檔案了超過17次 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
30984.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
30995.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
那我很好奇就憲法的高度您如何當然各院之間的業務各院各自主掌但是您如何看待所謂立法委員副中要報備其實我這個問題是因著前面關於所謂的中國統戰的問題而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
30998.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
30999.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
這個我個人認為就需要法律保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
31028.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
31029.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
你認為法律保留這件事情是重要的? |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
31040.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
31058.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
好,那我想要再問你喔又一樣是跟中國還有台灣有關喔前一陣子呢有一位雙重國籍的南投縣議員他被拔掉了他的議員資格因為呢他其實是有雙重國籍的我不知道你有沒有看到這個新聞來下一張不知道你有沒有看到這個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
31063.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
31086.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
也沒有好沒關係這個是一個南投的議員他是來自中國那在兩岸人民關係條例裡頭呢他只有取消他在中國的戶籍他其實並沒有放棄國籍但是他取得台灣人民身份證的身份是透過兩岸人民關係條例可是回到他擔任公職人員我們就必須要用國籍法來被要求也就是像我當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
31086.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
31101.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
不分區立法委員我就必須不可以有雙重國籍其實台灣國籍法裡面是有非常明白的規定那這一陣子呢內政部就做出說明內政部說就是我剛剛說的這些事情因此呢內政部依法行政解除其公職 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
31102.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
31119.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
那內政部並不認為這樣是所謂的剝奪外籍配偶參政的問題那我個人也支持這個說法因為確實擔任人民公職的這件事情擔任民意代表他的特殊性確實必須要把雙重國籍納入考慮就這個議題上請問被提名人您的看法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
31121.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
31125.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
委員我先不就個案評論因為這可能會進入行政法院不過我覺得擔任公職必須要有憲法上的忠誠義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
31139.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
31160.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
所以如果如同您說這個忠誠度是重要的尤其擔任公職那你認為你剛說的我可以接受就是他日後可能會走行政訴訟所以我們就在這邊先不予評論但是我剛聽到您很正向的回覆在擔任公職的這個部分確實我們在相關的國籍的部分必須要有所保留跟考慮對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
31162.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
31187.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
就是必須要對中華民國忠誠對中華民國忠誠我想這件事情是絕對絕對非常非常重要的最後時間只剩下30秒但是我還是要說國民黨的翁曉琳委員提出了憲法訴訟法這個事情我相信這個你一定有關注到吧我可不可以請您快速表達一下您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
31188.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
31189.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
那對於保障人民的權益其實影響很大這是我的認為好 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
31218.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
31225.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
謝謝陳委員、謝謝被提名人。報告全院委員會休息3分鐘。休息之後繼續進行詢問。現在休息。 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
31479.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
31480.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
請王備提名人答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
31510.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
31534.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
王法官您好我想您這次能夠被賴清德總統提名為大法官一定是您在整個的司法實務界表現非常亮眼所以賴總統提名您因為您是7位大法官裡面唯一一位司法實務界出身同時您也曾經要派過司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
31535.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
31559.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
就是去處理一些司法行政的工作然後又研究憲法訴訟法就本席瞭解您可以說是憲法訴訟法的幕後推手很多的法案大概都出自您之手所以跟其他的6位大法官提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
31560.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
31584.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
相比而言您是更了解憲法法庭的運作那麼我想大概已經很多的委員都有問過您這個題目就是就本席所提出來的憲法訴訟法的修法也就是針對大法官憲法法庭的審理的評議程序這個要進行改革的這個法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
31585.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
31615.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
明定將大法官最低出席會議人數計算方式從現有總額要改成法定總額作為一個計算的分母同時也要提高做成憲法裁判的門檻在這邊我想請教您您是否同意本席所提出來的修法當然我的修法目的是為了要強化大法官審理程序的嚴謹度可不可以請您表達一下您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
31616.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
31628.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
謝謝委員這個關於這個您所提出來的這個憲法訴訟法的這個修正案第4條第3項的修正草案就是把現有總額把它等同於法定總額15人這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
31631.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
31658.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
那這個當然是利益是很良好但是如果因為我們在很多案件裡頭就牽涉到說因為大法官有可能有時候會因為有些情形會因為出缺就是會有會有出缺情形或者是辭職或者各種情形或者是這個這個在審查不通過譬如說這次人事案審查不通過所以至於導致大法官出缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
31660.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
31679.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
也是一個風險就是當他的這個因為他現在的規定是說就是要這個要現有總額的這個三分之二以上的出席就是變成10位當如果大法官出缺就是不足10人的時候那所有的憲法法庭裡面的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
31681.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
31700.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
那你會認為這個無法 憲法法庭的無法運作是會永久的無法運作嗎還是只是暫時的今天大法官出缺的問題這跟這個法律的規定有關係嗎大法官出缺應該是怎麼樣是不是我們要盡快要補齊原額 是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
31704.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
31719.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
誰有權利要提名當然是依照我們憲法規定現在是總統提名經國立法院人士經國立法院要行使同意權所以一個制度的規定跟它實際的運作方式是適合這樣子把它牽連起來看嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
31721.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
31738.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
這個制度的規定還是要去設想到一些因素造成現有總額沒辦法達到法定總額的這樣的一個情形所以我個人是比較沒辦法支持這個委員的這個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
31741.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
31741.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
行政法院5人 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
31757.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
31772.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
我們有一個排一個輪序就是別庭會來支援所以我們的合議庭簡單來說你們就是要滿額運作嘛對不對你的合議庭一定要5個人5個法官要滿額運作但是因為行政法院我們現在行政法院有21人這個就是合議庭的5人 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
31776.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
31804.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
您的意思是講說一定都會補得上啦對 是的那大法官呢所以你們合議庭你們最高行政法院的合議庭要滿額運作憲法法庭的合議庭就不需要滿額運作因為他沒有一個候補的機制除非要再建立一個候補的機制所以沒有候補所以您的意思是講說我們其實審查大法官的人事案還不能夠只審查正式的大法官未來還要審查更多候補的大法官當然這是一個制度上的考 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
31806.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
31831.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
這是一個制度上的考量當然去建立一個候補的機制這個可能這個憲法沒有授權可能也是困難的啦所以這憲法沒有說要有候補大法官的機制之下當大法官缺額的時候不就是要等待補提名嗎?要補期嘛所以這原額的補期這本來就是屬於這個總統要提名然後立法院行使同意權這是涉及到憲法的問題但是這跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
31833.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
31847.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
現法訴訟法本身制度的問題有關係嗎?我們看看其他國家的憲法法庭都有最低出席人數的門檻甚至連法院組織法都還要求要滿額運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
31849.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
31872.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
我現在認為說整個憲法法庭的邏輯他們都有一個候補的機制像德國的話德國聯邦憲法法院他們有兩庭所以這個第一庭少了人的話還可以從第二庭就有人過來支援是因為德國他是兩庭他可以分開來處理但是我們大法官15個人要共同做決定那我認為說其實就 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
31876 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
31899.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
我觀察這一屆的大法官都是對別人很嚴格對下面的小法官很嚴格對一般的法院的法官的要求很嚴格程序很嚴格但是對自己卻很寬鬆所以一般的法院的法官可以開庭必須要滿額運作憲法法庭就不需要滿額運作對於一般的法院在處 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
31900.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
31928.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
在針對死刑的判決要求各級的法庭都要一致審一致決可是大法官做成這麼重要的憲法判決卻可以不用一致決甚至還只要過半數連本席提出來的要變成加強多數三分之二都還有人反對所以我認為說其實現在的憲法法庭的確是出了問題我們講司法改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
31929.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
31944.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
那不應該包括大法官改革嗎?您認為大法官不需要改革嗎?那個委員是指哪一個面向的改革?整個啊!從組織、組成、然後審理程序這些不需要改革嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
31946.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
31973.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
整體程序我是覺得現在的憲法訴訟法是還蠻好的是因為出自您的手所以認為很好我們來看一下這個大法官向來我們先來看看現在大法官向來對於受理事件的案件在過去基本上都是條件審查嚴格所以我們看到其實不受理案件的數量很龐大簡單來說有100個申請案件大概就97或95個的案子是被駁回的 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
31974.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
31996.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
為什麼會不會這麼多的案子委員是留得了這樣我們就更好討論這件事情因為我們現在就引進裁判憲法審查制度裁判憲法審查制度就從德國引進在引進當時就可以預見說其實在德國大概也就是2%的案件會被 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
31998.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
32000.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
王法官的回答所以簡單來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
32018.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
32042.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
這個哪個案子重要是大法官決定嗎你們已經設定了一個門檻就是2%我大概從100個案子當中我就挑兩件案子挑三件案子出來審好那我現在要講的就是說因為為什麼這個不受理案子不受理案件的這個問題會被提出來這也是我們看到在這次國會改革事件案當中其實很多的法律學者都認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
32044.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
32061.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
本來大法官不應該受理的因為大法官受理是違反了過去他的受理的見解可是這一次卻反常的受理了本案譬如講說這個徐中立院長在任的時候他認為說立法委員申請釋憲的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
32065.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
32083.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
應該要行使職權而且要在修法衛國的情況之下還要加上這個少數立委他是投反對票才可以提出來申請這次都放寬了即不需要提案修法衛國然後也不見得這個而是只要放寬到就是說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
32084.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
32099.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
這個法案才通過：連實施都沒有實施：就可以這個申請釋憲：然後大法官竟然還受理了：對於行使職權的意思也是一樣：對不對委員：如果我記沒有錯：其實像在年金改革的那個：4-781：782：783：也是少數委員提出的申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
32105.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
32129.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
也是應該沒有到修法衛國的程度也都不這樣要求好那所以簡單來說就大家會認為大法官受理案件就像是這個大法官的見解就像月亮大法官見解如月亮初一十五不一樣常常都在變更他今天想要受理哪個案子他就受理哪個案子他不想受理那個案子他就把它駁回 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
32130.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
32143.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
整個的憲法訴訟法裡面有關於受理的標準確實是模糊不清這個我想王法官因為您曾經有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
32146.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
32147.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
32165.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
32183.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
感到大法官的受理基本上是不正確的不客觀的跟他過去之前的所做的解釋都大意齊趣那這個部分的話就提供您參考還有就是說因為您曾經擔任過憲法法庭的您曾經擔任過書記官大法官書記廳的廳長您對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
32190.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
32206.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
書狀公開有沒有什麼看法您知道嗎在這次的國會改革事項案當中我們申請大法官迴避的書狀沒有公開然後好幾位專家學者的鑑定書頁數也是只能公佈前20頁後面的全部都不能公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
32208.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
32230.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
從司法的資訊公開透明的角度來看,您怎麼看書狀公開的這件事情?書狀公開限制頁數字數就我所知是仿效美國的聯邦最高法院美國聯邦最高法院的制度就是說這個書狀那個怎麼講就是要當事人叫申請人要在一定的頁數一定的字數之內充分表達這個這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
32233.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
32255.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
是過去有做到嗎?過去也沒有啊?過去大家也都是可以公開啊?是啊那這次呢?沒想到這個憲法法庭竟然還限制沒有這個制數限制好制數限制是一回事就是說剛才還有業數的限制對對這個就是從美國那邊就是從美國聯邦調查法我發現你們常常都看美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
32257.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
32278.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
學美國的法但是美國的法好的精神你沒有學到反而是對於一些限制人民的權利然後看起來跟違反司法資訊公開透明原則相悖的制度你們倒是學得很快那你們怎麼不說像美國他又處罰藐視國會的罪那你這次你認同在四線案當中認為藐視國會的處罰是違憲的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
32283.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
32310.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
這個113年憲判制9號既然做出了那我們就予以尊重予以尊重所以您是不表贊成但是予以尊重可以這麼解釋嗎就是說這個憲判制第9號他對於這個就是刑法141條這樣說好了如果說您未來擔任大法官類似的案子同樣的又再提起釋憲您會推翻憲判制9號判決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
32312.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
32334.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
這個是怎麼講這個是一個假設性的問題不過我會覺得說就是根據這個學理上也有所謂的權力分立的一個動態平衡就是也不反對說會有一個持續的一個憲法的對話所以就是將來有什麼樣的案子進來就是再來進入一個思辨的過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
32343.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
32355.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
因為您今天都講一些很抽象的概念民主思辨、民主對話我不曉得都是同一群類型的大法官你們的對話會有意義嗎?大家都是同一個見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
32357.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
32378.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
政治立場也是差不多然後對於很多議題的想法都一樣對於這個總統從一開始提名大法官的這樣子的一個方式其實跟其他國家比較不一樣其他國家的都是國會提名或者是有些是法院來產生以我們現行的制度底下要期待大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
32379.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
32400.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
能夠內部進行民主思辨很難所以這次我們為什麼希望賴清德總統他作為一個少數總統他要認清這個事實如果說在很多狀的人事案不跟國會溝通協調提名是國會能夠認同的大法官我告訴你其實憲法法庭不可能多元的 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
32402.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
32427.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
好那接下來我要再請教您就是有關於這個徐中立院長他其實過去一直都提到這個司法積極主義但是在這些年來我們看到其實徐中立法庭的司法積極主義呢已經變本加厲變成司法激進主義已經過度介入立法在憲判自8號、憲判自9號 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
32429.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
32450.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
實質廢死案當中還有國會改革事項案當中其實都再再顯示出有這樣的情況更不用說之前的很多的這個案子所以我想請教您就是面對不斷破權凌驛凌駕民意之上的大法官有什麼方式可以去節制大法官的權利憲法法庭破權 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
32454.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
32477.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
憲法法庭其實我剛才也有提到是說大法官釋憲本來就是會面對大法官本質上就會有一個這個抗多數決的一個困境是 這我了解他本身就會面對抗多數決的困境但是如果說當一個憲法判決做出來之後他明顯違憲明顯抵觸國民主權原則的時候這時候誰能夠來 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
32482.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
32499.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
治衡大法官誰能夠來推翻憲法判決在這個制度上就是司法就是做一個最後的一錘定音基本上來講就是在現在制度上這個憲法法庭的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
32500.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
32521.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
那就是等於是替憲法詮釋我想就不適合去講說憲法法庭的判決違憲然後後續要怎麼處理我先講嘛他的確是有這樣的可能性啊否則納粹時代的這個憲法法庭後來不會被人家都說他就是一群違憲的聯邦憲法法院法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
32522.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
32540.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
他還是有可能會做出違憲違反民意的這個判決在我之前曾經請教過賴教授陳運財教授他說或許可以用公投的方式來覆決憲法裁判您支持這種做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
32542.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
32561.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
這個公投法照現在的公投法它的標的有三個一個是法律的覆決一個是法律的覆決一個是立法原則的創制另外一個就是重大政策的創制跟覆決在現在的公民投票法的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
32563.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
32565.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
委員提到公投法要納入憲法法庭的判決． |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
32588.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
32590.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
會失靈會讓整個憲法上的一個解釋憲法的一個制度會崩潰 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
32598.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
32624.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
對 所以這個部分可能要請您好好想一想到底是這司法違憲審查的決定是高於民主的決定還是民主的決定最後可以推翻一個被大家所唾棄所認為不合理的司法違憲審查決定好 謝謝我想這個問題我就先問到這邊另外我想跟您請教一個問題就是這之前我們的法院曾經有處理過 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
32625.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
32646.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
大陸人來臺灣旅遊後來不幸因為路燈電擊死亡然後請求國家賠償的案子那麼法院當時就詢問法務部陸委會說大陸人民也是中華民國的人民請問後來的結果就說因此適用國賠法然後一審二審都判賠家屬蠻高額的賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
32650.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
32671.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
所以我想請問您您認為大陸地區是中華民國主權所及的範圍嗎?大陸人到底是不是中華民國的國民?那就是委員現在所講的這個大陸人民有沒有取得中華民國的身份證?這當然有沒有取得中華民國的身份證?就是有沒有取得中華民國國旗?沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
32672.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
32691.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
那沒有取得中華民國國籍的話那是不是另外一個看待就是說我們講這個中華民國就是國籍大概就是一個協同主義那另外一個是規劃那如果他不是這個從這個中華民國的他的父母不是中華民國人的話那又沒有經過規劃那大陸人你說他不是中華民國人嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
32693.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
32695.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
好 謝謝翁委員 謝謝貝提敏人下一位我們請陳冠廷委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
32739.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
32754.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
我們請備提名人備提名人王律師您好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
32755.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
32782.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
今年九月應該說在開始之前我想先針對今天稍早你跟幾個我們立法委員的回應我想還是我很直接的說我們盡量避免是不是我們尊重是否能否這種比較模糊性的回應我們就不要因為我們要透過這樣子的對答跟質詢讓大家知道你作為如果要做一個大法官勝不勝任你有沒有辦法把你想要 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
32783.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
32806.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
寫的、把你想說的、把你的價值敢不敢傳遞出來而不是只是要當大法官而當大法官所以沒有關係這個地方就是要讓你把你的想法很清楚的對所有的國會議員跟所有的國民來去闡述的一個機會那我在詢問的時候我盡量不會打斷你那我也希望你能夠把你自己的想法就是全面性的講出來沒有關係好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
32810.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
32833.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
請問貝廷英今年9月憲法法庭有針對死刑制度做了有條線合線的裁判將死刑的適用範圍和程序變得很嚴格的限縮包含必須要對最嚴重的犯罪情節才能使用還有何義廷一致決這些都是很嚴格的門檻我個人是支持死刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
32834.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
32863.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
許多人也反映這個此舉在實務上面卻等同於實質廢死它有削弱了立法者原先希望透過死刑所達成的威嚇效果跟社會的保障安全請問在您看來憲法法庭是不是已經事實上引導死刑走向極度限縮甚至是實質廢死的道路如果你當時已經是大法官的話你是否也會做出同樣的事先見解是不是可以請你很坦率的來回應我的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
32864.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
32864.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
32865.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
32892.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
謝謝委員那這個關於這個死刑是不是要廢止這樣的議題那先說當然委員剛才有給我提示過不過還是要先講在制度面上113年先判之八號做出來的結論在制度面上我們就是要予以尊重那現在委員如果是問我個人的看法的話是那這個怎麼講就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
32895.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
32914.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
我個人是覺得說這個如果真的要廢除死刑的話那比較適合像這個像德國或者法國這樣做就要把它入縣這是一個憲法保留的一個事項要把它入縣所以說這個相當於實質廢除死刑這樣的狀況的話你認為還不夠完整可以這麼說嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
32921.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
32924.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
現在的民意沒有要廢除死刑現在的民意剛好是跟大法官的目前是有點相違背的 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
32936.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
32959.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
包含其實如果在讓國會可以議決的話我想至少三分之二以上都還是支持實行的嘛所以我的意思是說我的問題是說他等於是說在實質上面等同於實質廢死啦那我的想要請教你的問題就是在您看來憲法法庭是否已經事實上引導實行走向極度限縮甚至是廢除的道路這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
32962.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
32981.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
我個人是認為相當的限縮了不過他也有很清楚的說這個是符合國際人權公約的規定是要一個最嚴厲的情形然後也要有最嚴密的正當法律程序的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
32982.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
32992.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
瞭解我只是要確認一下那剛才我的這個問題還有一個就是說如果你已經是大法官當時是大法官的話你這事件間接會是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
32995.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
33009.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
想聽聽看你的見解我個人支持實行但不代表說我一定會讓你全部講完因為委員這樣說我就更好敞開因為我在學生時代因為這樣講國際人權公約說要尊重保護生命權 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
33018.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
33040.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
其實這個公正公約早在1976年就已經施行了我們學生實在都有看到這個公約也都很幸福很嚮往這樣一個公約但是身為一個實務工作者我曾經辦過四年的刑事案件我也辦過重大刑案然後我也辦過殺人案 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
33043.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
33066.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
當然我的刑事判決的資歷很短我在29年前我就遇到一個殺人案那這個案件裡面的被害人就是項驗卷裡面的被害人一個小女孩的一個清純的照片跟她那個屍體跟她的大體幾乎被開膛破肚的那個照片 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
33067.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
33090.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
到現在還很清楚的印在我的腦海中還有我們在開庭的時候請他那個單親媽媽來陳述的時候他那個媽媽他媽媽的那個哀泣的面容也真的就很像他也在那個時間看到他女兒屍體的那一刻跟著死去一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
33092.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
33111.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
從那一刻起我是覺得說如果犯罪的情節因為我那件是一個強姦殺人案如果犯罪情節那麼嚴重的話就應該讓他受就是說如果沒有相對應的一個像終身監禁不能夠假釋的這樣一個制度的話那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
33112.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
33129.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
只有採取這樣一個方式才是一個罪責相當所以在你的說法裡面因為你有過去這些經驗那你可能會也是傾向於必須要罪責相當包含即刑就是死刑讓他徹底的隔離於社會我可以這樣理解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
33130.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
33154.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
這是我個人的看法好謝謝我只是要理解我們因為我們選的大法官他必須勇敢的把自己的看法講出來那儘管這個已經是之前的這個案決見解但是我必須要理解到這個被提名們的看法那其實我是認同的在這種情節如此重大除了永久隔絕於社會的極刑也就是死刑之外是沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
33156.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
33183.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
說一個罪責相當的一個處置的我甚至認為說耗費這麼多納稅人的錢讓這些行為極其重大那會影響這麼大的還可以持續在耗費我們的稅金我覺得也是完全不能夠認可所以為什麼本席這次實行也是因為是這樣那謝謝你的回應很坦率的把你的看法說出來儘管說這可能在全民的看法裡面可能是 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
33184.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
33186.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
第2個問題就是最近社會上也常常談到的安樂死的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
33205.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
33224.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
那這陣子國人也頻繁的在討論隨著我們的高齡化社會但高齡化不代表說他可以就是在人生的最後階段能夠免除於痛苦所以我們看到許多重症或者是末期的病人他是承受難以想像的痛苦那他們有時候會懇求有尊嚴的移開 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
33225.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
33251.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
但是另外一派的人是認為生命權的至高無上那也有可能會擔心就是犯罪比方說為了增產誘導使用安樂死的疑慮等等的狀況從憲法的角度來看請問選擇權要如何設計才能兼顧保障生命權的保障還化解社會的疑慮我想聽聽看你對這個這個大議題的看法就是你從這個你把你的所有的想法看法來跟我們分享一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
33252.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
33269.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
從近年來大法官的解釋還有憲法法庭的判決是非常強調個人的自主權我個人也不排除朝這個方向去思考這個問題所以現在會傾向於選擇權 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
33277.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
33302.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
這些重症也好或者是極端特殊狀況無法承受的痛苦的這些病人能夠自由選擇包含安樂死的這個決定你會目前是傾向贊成的不過這當然有一些這個細節我們可以再做討論人理道德上的考量還有他的風險到底是不是出於他自己的自主這些問題都要排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
33304.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
33332.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
要排除那我可以理解就是說在經過假設這個案子這個相關的法案經過立法院一決那決定是這個案二十四可以有條件的去執行那在完整的監督機制之下那在清醒的狀況之下那送到但是有人就是提出這個希望憲法的解釋的話你會傾向於同意這個案二十四的作為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
33333.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
33354.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
如果立法者先做了一個這樣的一個決定的話,那我想我不會做一個反對的,我不會認為這是違憲的。你就不會認為這一個是違憲的,你可能會做出這樣子的判定。立法者如果這樣立法了,我不會去採取違憲的這個立場。 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
33357.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
33377.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
謝謝這樣子對於被提名們的這個法律的進展我們現在慢慢的就是有一個更完整的輪廓那接下來就是比較大一點的問題就是言論自由跟國家安全的這個分際那我自己是有針對TikTok或者是相關的社群平台那 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
33379.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
33392.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
有相關的法案提出原則上我們是認為站在國家安全的立場上有一些特別是由中共或者是由特殊的政黨有傷害到我國國家安全利益的時候這樣的平台是必須予以禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
33393.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
33416.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
但是這跟我們的言論自由雖然說我自己是認為在國家安全的立場上但是也有一部分的我們的民眾認為這可能會影響到我們的言論自由那在本週一在美國TikTok是要求聯邦上訴法院禁止拜登行政當局執行與母公司的字母跳動的脫離的命令那目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
33417.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
33429.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
還不清楚這個未來這個法院最高法院是否會審理此案但是這個是涉及國家安全與數據隱私還有言論自由之間的考量我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
33430.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
33449.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
請教備提名人,如果這樣子的部分出現的話,比方說假設我們的這個針對禁止這些由敵國,我們就稱呼中國為敵國,或者是說由中共特殊政黨對我國的國家安全有疑慮的話,政府是有權利將其的平台撤下,我有提出這樣的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
33450.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
33466.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
我現在以我我們雖然說是執政長但是在國會沒有佔優勢的狀況之下可能這個案件可能不見得會成為法律但是萬一成為法律的話你怎麼去看待這個言論自由跟國家安全之間的平衡我想聽聽看你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
33468.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
33483.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
言論自由是憲法第11條所明文所保障的而且牽涉到說一個人的這個思想的表達這個是要在民主憲政國家是要高度的尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
33483.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
33483.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
33503.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
33503.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
33527.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
33552.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
不好意思你剛才提到說就是他沒有無限的自由的上綱沒有一個基本權利是可以無限的完全不受限制的23條有明文規定好謝謝這樣子就是說不管是用言論自由作為理由但是他還是有一定的上限在那這樣子的解釋我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
33553.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
33570.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
非常好謝謝你的這個分享那其實在美國有一個通訊端正法他的第20條的條款就是基本上就是免除網路中介服務者平台對用戶上傳內容的法律責任那這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
33572.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
33590.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
條款其實現在有各種不同的看法因為錯假亂或者是各種可能是涉及更嚴重的違反社會安全的這些狀況的這些討論或者是影片或者是音訊等等都會在這些平台上面不斷的流傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
33591.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
33617.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
那這樣子的做法之下怎麼樣去找到平衡點那其實其他先進的民主國家也同樣面臨這樣子的挑戰所以我們預先先提出這些問題就是希望被提名的人能夠思考那先做好一些相關知識的準備因為未來我相信可能會提出來的視線都有可能會包含這些重要的問題最後一個問題就是最近我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
33618.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
33627.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
現在此時此刻面臨的一個重大的議題那其實在野黨現在是有推動這個憲法訴訟法那還有一些相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
33629.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
33649.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
例如是像現有的總額那定義為法定的總額所以如果要信任的人是同意那沒有通過下那現有的大法官可能沒有辦法到達門檻那可能會癱瘓到憲法的機制關於這個題目你怎麼看你覺得這樣子的法律是否適合 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
33652.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
33677.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
這個剛才就是有兩位委員都也都問過相同的問題那基本上來講我覺得這個如果把現有總額定為這個把它等同於法定總額就是15個人的情況下在大法官完全沒有出缺的情況下的話這個不生問題那問題是呢大法官有就是有可能會辭職也有可能會有其他的情形就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
33677.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
33677.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
33695.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
33696.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
法定總額不相當 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
33713.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
33717.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
那我們已經假設真的通過了因為我們的人數可能不夠那這樣子政治通過的話那真的癱瘓的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
33742.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
33767.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
有沒有其他方式可以解決這種狀況就你的所有的法律的素養還有各種對行政、立法還有所有的了解有沒有其他的方式能夠避免這樣的癱瘓我們必須假設這最糟的狀況真的發生的話有沒有什麼樣的解決方案這個當然我們還是希望說在這個大院如果經過一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
33768.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
33769.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
33785.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
33785.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
33810.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
33811.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
你剛才提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
33838.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
33862.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
違憲宣告假設這個違憲宣告那是是要在哪一個時間點可以做這樣的做法是有哪一個空窗期嗎還是就是因為憲法法庭是不告不理啦就是說看什麼人要要把他案件申請進來對司法就是永遠是不告不理的對我知道不告不理可是當這個法律已經通過那 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
33865.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
33868.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
那又沒有足夠的人數那他怎麼受理 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
33871.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
33898.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
所以這受理對受理也是所以我才問說你說不告不理但假設不管是有沒有提出來他還是會在這一個結裡面嗎所以等於他是一個死結了嗎當然也有也有一個說法啦也有一個說法就是大法官在在憲法法庭在運作的時候直接在適用個案的時候基於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
33899.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
33901.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
再重複一次好不好你剛才講的話再講一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
33927.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
33927.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
33960.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
33964.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
謝謝陳委員、謝謝貝提名人接下來請林思明委員詢問請貝提名人答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
33989.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
34010.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
這個王貝提名人我想您在法界有深厚的底蘊尤其你的專程是在公法的領域我看你的這個相關事務的經驗你在司法事務界服務已經30幾年了你的法官的資歷從地院、高院到司法院擔任大法官的書記處的處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
34012.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
34030.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
也擔任過施律考試的典事委員、月卷還有口試委員在學校也有開課來授業所以你在實務上的辦案的經驗或者在學術上面的從法治面的相關的一個探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
34031.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
34054.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
我相信你都非常熟悉所以對於你這個的專業度我想我們也予以肯定但是我們看到賴總統他提名大法官除了說有專業他說要包含專業、進步、國際化、堅固理念與實務等四大核心的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
34056.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
34072.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
但是可能也忽略了大法官不僅需要專業性還是必須要有幾個原則我們認為必須要具備的比如說操守一定要良好 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
34073.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
34101.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
也要尊重我們的民意的期待另外最重要的就是不能有顏色之分而必須超然獨立的來進行案件的相關憲法訴訟的一個審判主要就是展現出社會多元價值的一個判斷而不是完全獨厚於哪一個黨派 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
34103.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
34123.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
我想我們當前社會重大的議題都有關於價值的判斷不管是年改也好這個通姦除罪化或者廢死等等這些議題啊都是我們大法官這個就是做一個價值的判斷如果大法官的信念 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
34125.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
34148.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
這個... |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
34149.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
34164.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
這個釋憲的工作就是大法官這個工作本身就是我們常常講這就是美國學者所講的一個抗多數的困境也就是說我們講民主原則我們講國民主權原則但是其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
34165.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
34166.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
所以您是支持看應該所講的抗多數原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
34194.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
34211.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
所以我會認為說當然委員我就繼續講完在美國他們也有兩個學派一個叫做實體法論貝蒂米娜這個理論我都知道我只問妳我是想了解妳的看法所以妳是支持抗多數這個原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
34214.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
34215.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
我接下來會請教你下面幾個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
34243.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
34252.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
來評斷說您對於我們社會﹐所期待的相關議題﹐你的看法當然你的許中立院長﹐也是你的老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
34253.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
34280.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
他是我的研究所的建法老師他也是我的碩士論文師法週刊在2018年10月他有撰文他表示說司法積極主義也就是憲法法院對其他政治部門的決定並非尊重、順從而是採取積極介入的態度因此通常採取比較嚴格的審查標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
34282.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
34299.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
我要請教被提名人你認為現在大法官的角色在國會改革、死刑存廢、年金改革、通姦除罪化等方面所展現出的司法積極主義是否已經過度傾斜? |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
34304.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
34320.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
這個許院長講的這個司法積極主義那其實他最他當然也看的是要看基本權他很強調要看基本權然後也很強調說特別是對於這個孤獨而隔絕的少數要特別的加以保護大概基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
34322.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
34346.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
徐老師講的是大概我所能從他身上學到的是這樣一件事情那我再更明確的問你就是說如果當社會民意期待民意的取向跟我們大法官的主流價值不同的時候我想請教您個人的觀點你的選擇是什麼主流民意是認為說這個議題應該是做這樣的一個選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
34350.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
34351.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
一定要一個程度的尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
34369.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
34390.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
這也要看民意看這個民意他的基礎是什麼他的理論的基礎是什麼你還會有這個考量的一個面向不是完全就是說否定我們的民意那個委員因為我們這個我是職業法官這長期的就是其實案子來了我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
34390.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
34417.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
沒有 其實就是一個空白的我們就是透過貝蒂米人我想這個現在你是大法官當然當職業法官你是在依法論法依照法律來做相關的一個案件的判決但是在做大法官的有關憲法訴訟的相關於有關這個法律的一個解釋的時候或者是對於相關政策的一個選擇的時候您就要做出價值判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
34418.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
34429.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
是 但是要在做出價值判斷前要先傾聽啊所以您是尊重民意嘛你現在是說你會尊重民意你不會漠視民意啦OK 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
34431.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
34452.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
再來我們在對於這個立法者就除了民意的一個尊重以外如果在立法院對於立法者的對立法的政策方向或者立法者所依照這個他的價值理念所立出來的法律說出來的立法如果是跟大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
34453.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
34470.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
的立場是不同的時候．您是尊重立法權．還是也是一樣．跟許中立院長．他這個篆文所表示的．要積極介入的態度．對立法部門的決定．可以不尊重．不順從 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
34472.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
34488.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
基本上來講大法官就是解釋憲法而且對於法律有這個違憲審查權所以不可能對於立法院通過的每一條法律都以尊重那我們就就是形同橡皮圖章所以還是要實質的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
34490.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
34506.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
所以你認為說對立法律法者所這個立出來的法律你也是認為說就是可以這個積極介入審查不予尊重不予順從應該是看他這個涉入的這個事情的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
34507.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
34514.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
我現在就針對大家非常關心的實行這個這次憲判制第8號來做相關的一個來瞭解你的態度我們看到這次憲判第8號的判決大法官雖然認為核憲你剛才也認為說這個是核憲的但是增設了8個門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
34538.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
34557.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
我們看到就是大法官以偵涉8個付款的方式來讓這個死刑的判決增加他的難度所以我們大家外界批評這個根本就實質廢死而出現侵害立法權的一個問題所以如此一來 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
34560.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
34587.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
這個立法院的職權我們看到就是說因為你對立法院所立的法律你認為這個可以增加付款造成這個法律難以實行難以執行所以是不是大法官你就在充當造法者你不是在侵犯立法者的一個權限嗎是不是就是說你透過大法官的一個判決去 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
34589.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
34610.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
成為我們現在執政者的一個救援裁判你再幫他解套讓他可以化解民意作為他的工具去讓他不再受民意的一個壓力作為他們化解壓力的一個擋箭牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
34611.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
34635.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
大法官現在我們看到是變成這樣的一個角色你認為這樣大法官積極介入這樣子的一個這個符合執政者他的立場的一個裁判這是符合民主政治嗎大法官積極介入可能這個涉及到個人的這個社會價值理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
34636.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
34657.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
但是我想任何一位大法官都不應該受到任何的就超出黨派之外不應該受到任何的干涉其實我剛才聽到您在回答有關於生命權的保障這一部分我想貝提米爾你也認同說這個生命權它是不應該被剝奪的嗎應該被保障的嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
34662.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
34688.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
但是我們看到這個許中立院長：他對於這個我們這一次的憲判制第8號的判決：他表示此一保障有例外：就是說非絕對這個生命權：雖然是每個人與生俱來的固有權利：因受最高的保障：但是此一保障卻有例外：非絕對不可侵犯之權利： |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
34689.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
34712.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
所以我們看到連院長他在憲法法庭表面上是向社會宣告說死刑制度在我國人屬沒有違憲但實質上這句話就意味著說你可以設下重重的關卡讓死刑實質廢止我現在來跟你請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
34714.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
34743.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
所有的死刑犯如果要所有的這個犯罪就是要判死刑的罪犯你要去符合最嚴重的犯罪類型而且要經過各級法院一致決的一個要件才能夠去做出死刑的判決所以大家才會批評說這樣就等於說實質在廢死所以我想請問你被害者的人權是不是一樣也要受到保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
34745.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
34771.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
我覺得被害者的人權要受到相當的保障：包括被害者的家屬的人權：也要受到相當的保障：因為我是司法事務工作者：我自己有見過：應該可以深刻感受：因為剛才你提到一個案例：說你在事務的審判上：對於說這些被害家屬：看到他們非常的：應該予以保障他們權利的一個一面： |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
34773.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
34795.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
但是他的權利受到侵害後甚至家屬的生命權被剝奪的時候我們司法要如何就法理上為這些被害者來平反你要如何被他平反你現在認為說這個死刑就是我們現在看到大法官把死刑設那麼多的關卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
34796.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
34817.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
但是以你的角度你擔任司法審判事務那麼多年你認為要如何來幫他們平反也說實在話其實判處被告死刑不是一個完全能夠修復他的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
34818.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
34843.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
對,所以當然就是變成說要再有一些相關的立法那當然在這個裁判的過程中能夠讓他有相當的一個參與權然後也就是在也要讓這個加害者得到一個罪責相當相當的一個罪行所以你剛才提到說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
34845.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
34863.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
判死刑並非是平反他們、修復他們的一個方式您的看法是這樣嗎?是不是?應該是這兩件事情就是說不是判死刑了,把它執行掉了家屬傷口就痊癒了好像被害人就 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
34869.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
34871.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
今天有關於新竹輪胎行巴士命案您看看家屬的怒吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
34897.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
34913.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
聽到被告被判處無期徒刑逃過死刑判決,嫌犯大嫂的母親淚下法庭。這個案件不是情節最嚴重,讓我想問什麼樣的案件是情節最嚴重?還有悔改之心,法官律師你們真的確定嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
34914.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
34921.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
我的女兒：到死來抱著：她的寶貝真的緊緊的抱著：所以那小孩子的肚子：只有她是完整的：其他的人：那個被你們看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
34941.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
34964.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
死者家屬的公道要怎麼平反不是我們裁判者去做評斷的法律怎麼規定我們就怎麼判大法官如果完全違背我們現行法有關死刑判決死刑的一個依據自行設立門檻讓這個死刑的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
34969.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
34997.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
沒有辦法去這個讓法院做出這樣的裁判你看被害者家屬的一個怒吼他們的公道他們就覺得他們得不到公道當被害者的生命權被剝奪的那一剎那加害者可曾考量說被害者在被你殺害的那一刻是多麼的淒慘多麼的痛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
34997.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
35024.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
所以被害者的那個痛就是等同就是認為說他那個他的家屬在那一剎那是多麼悲慘叫天天不應叫地地不應完全可以說是非常非常的可憐那加害者在這種情況之下還下得了手你會認為這種人我們還要說去同情他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
35026.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
35043.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
所以被害者的公道在哪裡8條人命你看看今天改判無期徒刑委員因為這個案子還沒有確定我是現職法官是不是容許我不評論這一件當然不評論可以但是我讓你看看被害者怒吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
35045.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
35062.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
我們也看一下法務部的立場法務部在整個死刑的辯論裡面法務部也認為說死刑的存廢應該由我們立法行政來形成共識而非司法來進行判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
35063.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
35092.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
所以法部也認為說死刑是合憲的但是我們今天看到這個刑判第8號造成了一個非常大的問題就是目前37名的判決定讞的死刑犯司法院表示其中30人的評議部因為保存時效被銷毀這30人沒有一致決所以難以求證有沒有一致決這個待證事實限於真偽不明 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
35093.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
35119.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
所以這30人未來勢必會提起非常上訴本席一個非常大的疑慮難道這些大法官當時在做成判制第8號把門檻提高為說一定要一字決的時候他們難道沒有預見說這個評議部早就已經被銷毀了嗎他們有沒有可能預見 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
35121.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
35143.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
這個我就不清楚我只知道說你在司法界那麼久你知道一個評議部你們評議部會的保存有他的期限嗎10年對啊10年啊所以這些大法官當初做這個判決的時候難道不能遇見嗎所以我們深度的懷疑他們能遇見所以他們根本就是在為 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
35146.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
35173.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
這37位死刑犯保留一線生機還幫他們解套所以我們要很遺憾的說這一次的大法官表面上做出死刑核限的判決但實際上根本就是在處理廢死的議題在做廢死的一個判決我們真的非常遺憾所以我們還是要這個被提名的人希望未來如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
35174.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
35194.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
您真的被提名為大法官．關於我們價值判斷的問題．除了您的專業以外．也要兼顧我們主流的民意．可不可以謝謝林委員．謝謝被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
35195.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
35217.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
報告全院委員會對大法官被提名人王碧芳尋答部分到此為止謝謝王被提名人碧芳列席答詢12月12日星期四上午9時繼續開會審查司法院大法官被提名人．福特、劉靜怡資格之相關事宜現在休息 |