| IVOD_ID |
163587 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163587 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
25 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-20T12:03:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-20T12:17:58+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3feaef107a98f0c9b07a381bc6b2e804495992f4538fe6f2817c1cbb294e2f35004cc94ee87db5845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:03:20 - 12:17:58 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：（上午）
邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
（下午1時30分）
繼續審查
一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。
二、委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。
三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。
四、委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。
五、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。
【逐條討論】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
4.291 |
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11.761 |
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我們麻煩那個劉建國召委發言好 謝謝主席 有請次長有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
37.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我來順延次長最後剛剛回答我來順延剛剛這個崔詢次長最後的一段話你最後那段話如果記得清楚應該叫做台灣有將近100多萬個身心障礙者的家庭這個家庭裡面小英的2.0一直到賴總統即將要進度到3.0那也包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
38.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
54.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
也包含外籍看護工在做整體的台灣的整個這個長期照顧的體系的一環就包容在這一塊跟這一塊嘛我應該可能文字上有些落差啦那基本上意思應該是這個樣子嘛對不對所以應該講說開宗明義就是說台灣的長期照顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
60.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
88.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
被照顧的對象長期被照顧的對象那基本上基本上外籍看護工也就是在這一個範疇裡面非常需要的一個長期照顧的人力嘛沒有錯嘛對不對好那我剛剛在私底下部長沒有離開之前可能部長在因為一件事情啦但我有跟次長也有跟照護士的司長來做一個討論看護這兩個字的定義是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
89.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
114.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
就以勞動部看待看護 解釋看護用最簡單的方式去定義看護的工作內容是什麼就協助失能者相關的日常照顧協助失能者相關的日常照顧嘛 對不對所以有失能者三個字嘛對那如果看護工 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
115.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
139.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
沒有針對失燈者去照顧正常的對象有沒有違法理論上是不行的所以我們以前最早的時候看護工去幫忙其他的家人洗衣服煮飯都是我們認為是愉悅的工作的方法幫他洗衣煮飯他的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
140.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
156.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
他的對象應該限於失能者限於失能者這樣解釋又怪怪的也就是說看護工照理講不管他照顧對象與否他都不應該去做洗衣煮飯的事情嘛應該是這麼解釋才對嘛還是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
157.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
172.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
因為他講日常生活照護那因為我們的失能者有些可能是獨居的有些可能是 所以這個部分就會去看原則上我們是希望以失能者的需求滿足為主那不急於其他的家人 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
173.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
200.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以話又講回來就是說對私人者的照顧可能我們的這個日常照顧的範圍我們可以擴大一些去做一些處理對不對在認定上勞動部是覺得這是延伸也沒有多大問題但是我們有分得很細節你自己講的第一個外國人受聘僱於從事本法第四六條第一項第九款規定之工作其工作內容如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
201.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
216.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
第一個 家庭幫庸工作在家庭從事房舍清理 食物分條家庭成員起居照料或其他與家事服務有相關嘛這個是家庭幫庸工作的範圍定酬嘛 對不對好 那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
216.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
246.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
就看護囉 那看護又分做機構看護跟家庭看護喔對 他的前提照顧對象就正如市長所講的都是失能者嘛 對不對好 那問題來了啊46條46條修正之後我們的外籍看護工照顧對象就沒有所謂失能者就沒有全部focus在一個失能者的在那個前提了嘛 對不對那這樣顯然只有修那一條 這條要不要修 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
258.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那一條修了 現在要執行的這一條大家不修那人民要如何去看待你的法律的明確性然後要如何去遵守你的就業法所有的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
260.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
281.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
怎麼去看待46條我們的理解因為46條增加不叫做你們理解你可能要很正確的說明他還是對照顧的對象寫到被看護者四個字所以基本上面只是被看護者的資格條件做一些相應的處理所以我們基本上面還是不會認為這個會外溢到非被看護者的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
286.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
310.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
市長你應該了解我講的意思 但是你打呼我這樣是不對的喔今天是一個不是私人的對象他提出這個外籍看護的申請 外籍移工的申請嘛 對不對那我的前提就不是私人者 我已經提出申請了那我只是超過80歲那你必須依照46條修正完之後 你必須要接受我的申請嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
311.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
319.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那跟你在第四條針對看護的定義實際工作內容就已經衝突跟違背了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
320.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
345.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因為46條那邊大院的修法是把它寫成80歲以上或者是70歲癌症二期以上都把它等同於被看護者所以我們從被看護者的角度上來看依照大院的法律我們就是只能做這樣一個相應的這個法律是立法院通過沒有錯啦但是立法院通過大院通過的80歲以上他只是寫80歲以上對不對因為他寫80歲以上被看護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
347.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
349.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
他有寫80歲以上被看護者免憑巴士量表怎麼認定他是80歲以上的看護者 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
358.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
381.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那個條文讀起來會這樣所以有一些NGO團體或專家學者也在指教說這樣子是不是彼此之間會有一些衝突因為80歲以上其實事實上就是衝突啊事實上就是衝突啊但是對我們行政機關依法行政的角度上來看我們還是會盡量在法律許可的範圍裡面把它做一個相應的降低它的衝擊和安排 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
382.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
402.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你來 市長你先等一下我請市長 長照市的市長你現在在詳讀是不是還是在看手機在研究法規是針對我們剛剛討論這事情的法規嗎市長你作證喔等一下手機打開不是你就 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
406.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
435.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
長期照顧長期照顧的對象可不可以簡單說明一下在你小管的長期照顧服務法的定義我們的長服務法裡面規範的就是預期他未來或者是現在就是整個達到半年六個月以上的一個需要協助他生活無法自理身體心理就是六個月以上自己沒有辦法自理嘛需要他能來協助照顧嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
436.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
443.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這是很清楚嘛你們對康祿的定義在你們的長照體系他的工作內容照顧的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
445.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
473.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
應該是這麼說這個看護的字整個源起是從就業服務法這邊來的那所以在常服法裡面對於有一條的名詞定義裡面就是有把這個所謂的這個看護也引進進來所以你們這邊有一個叫做第三條的第八項個人看護者只以個人身份受雇 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
475.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
502.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
與失能者家庭從事看護工作嘛 對不對所以就很清楚了嘛這個是從引舊輔法的一些文字過來的所以我要表達就是說不管你在長照輔法的第3條不管你在這個就業輔法第4條到大院在修正後的第46條照例講都不應該違背你們定義的看護的工作看護的對象啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
508.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
阿現在有沒有違背請答覆我 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
511.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
539.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為我們一直在擔心嘛就是會排擠到真正你必須要照顧到的重度的的這些失能者嘛 對不對就誠如次長所講的一百多萬個這些身心障礙者的對象嘛是廣大的這個我們擴大的長照體系包含外籍看護我們都納入在其中嘛所以我們就是要針對身心障礙者除此之外還有六個月以上身心自己無法治理的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
541.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
558.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
都很清楚嘛我相信兩個法律基本上都在談論這個事情嘛開宗民義內容實際執行都是這個樣子嘛但以一個就有法4、6條去修那段話之後全部通通辯解了啊全部通通衝突了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
559.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
585.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以勞動部當時在46條修法的時候其實我們是希望再更多的討論那是不是有一些其他相對的可以更緩和然後能夠兼顧各方的意見的版本但是遺憾的到最後通過的版本還是目前的狀況我現在只是要提醒你喔我是要提醒你我沒有要求你去釋憲啦照理講你是應該勞動部要發動去釋憲你不去釋憲你會出什麼問題連衛護部你都會遭遇到問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
589.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
617.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
如果80歲以上 免80量表然後是一個身心都非常健康的長輩他都可以來申請外籍看護工那我是80歲以上的一個長輩我身心健康 我能不能申請長照2.0你要不要跟我平 你為什麼可以跟我平 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
620.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
635.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我申請外國對象免評我臺灣 我自己申請臺灣的造福源你要給我評什麼蛤 你要給我評不會過啊對吧 啊你這位副法 請外籍公務員你不用給我評 會過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
639.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
647.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我告訴大家有意思嗎 一個政府一個體制的內政勞動部你針對外政勞動部 也是你照顧台灣的政治照顧的對手一個有效部 照顧是專門主觀長照2.0 也是要照顧身體心理超過6個月以上無法治理的這些對象嘛 對不對 我們都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
660.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
686.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
就是陳儒次長 我是FOX次長回答王委員最後那段話這麼廣大 龐大的一個照護體系當然就是包含本級的照護員包含外級看護工嘛但是為什麼這兩個照顧對象認定審查需求不盡相同這個不叫分流這叫亂流 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
692.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
715.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
對不對 為什麼就你逼我 我今天是一個健康的80歲以上長者我要來申請台灣的長照2.0 不行你不可以做對不對 但是我可以去申請外籍看護工這其實你再問一問我就不提去做了啦 但我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
722.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
735.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
在執行上一定就會有很大的衝突矛盾跟政府會有這種兩條線的在處理我們真正的要照顧到了長照的需求者的對象那現在去擴大 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
735.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
758.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
免評的他可能就是健康也要健康的這些對象除此之外這是另外一件事情嘛對不對但是我們真的很擔心我們真的很擔心真正需要被照顧的身體心理長期無法治理的對象反而出了問題嘛然後也因為台灣是講人權的國家所以這個剛剛很多委員的比喻我就不再贅述了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
759.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
780.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這是另外一個城市問題喔但是我想以法律的明確性以法律的定義以看護的這個實際上的工作內容你們兩部是不是要不要坐下來好好討論不能說大院通過的法律之前有大院通過的法律是自愛難行啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
781.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
806.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
沒有執行的啊謝謝委員的指教 委員的意見我們都非常的認同但是因為現階段而言所以我們才必須要花七個月的時間跟衛福部大家充分的在見面去做處理在有限的時間底下我們先盡量不要讓重症家庭的需求受到排擠那至於其他的部分我們跟衛福部這部分在未來長照3.0其實他們跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
807.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
828.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們在很多的界面上剛才呂次也有特別提到在很多界面上我們有過一些相應的處理包括這些中間家庭的空窗期長照的機制和資源也都可以進來我們會持續去做相應的處理至於剛才委員講的法律結構的問題容我們再來思考看未來該怎麼去做相應的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
828.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
848.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
好啦 一個月可以吧 一個月可以應該不用一個月了 這個講就已經這麼清楚了 一個禮拜內一個禮拜內 你是不是 針對我提出的問題啦你要看怎麼去做應應 還有一些相關的一些調整還是該有一些必須要的作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
849.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
872.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
然後提供給委員會做參考啦好不好是 關委員是不是給我們一個月啦因為部長不在嘛我答應他一個禮拜我也不知我沒有辦法掌握部長這個禮拜完整的行程他就不在你就可以答應了他在就不用你答應啊你這很奇怪你講回答我這話也怪怪的我都一直順著你的講法一直講下來兩個星期啦 兩個星期啦OK啦 好 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝 |