| IVOD_ID |
16355 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16355 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
公聽會-2024120436 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法相關法案」公聽會 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
公聽會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法相關法案」公聽會） |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-09T14:00:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-09T17:26:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:25:51 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fceb73709123985790e226aaf5bc271919a82e37f9ba35fd7762eba7b9aca7d3525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-09T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法相關法案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:00:09 - 17:26:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1819.043 |
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1836.808 |
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現在開會今日舉行公務人員退休資遣撫卹法相關法案公聽會首先我們先介紹與會的學者專家按照簽到的順序來介紹要拿筆註記一下順序 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1844.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1871.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
第一位是我們中華民國全國公務人員協會高士南理事長歡迎您第二位是全國教育產業總工會林碩傑理事長歡迎您第三位是中華民國全國公務人員協會李萊熙前理事長歡迎您第四位是 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1872.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1894.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
公務人員退休撫卹基金監理委員會的羅德水監理委員歡迎您第五位是全國教師公會總聯合會集體協商中心紅維斌執行長歡迎您第六位是全國教師會侯俊良理事長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1896.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1919.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
第7位是中華民國全國退休教師聯盟吳南彥理事長歡迎您第8位是經濟民主聯合智庫圖錦亮研究員歡迎您第9位是國立屏東科技大學社會工作系林鴻陽林教授歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1920.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1939.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
第10位是中華民國警察及眷屬關懷協會 游玉蘭游理事長好久不見好 第11位是反觀臺灣公共治理協會 何雲峰理事長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1941.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1942.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
歡迎全旭部施能傑施部長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1969.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1995.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
因為今天也讓這個與會的學者專家互相瞭解認識也包括我們全序部的退伍司的劉永慧劉司長歡迎您也包括我們全序部我們公務人員退休撫蓄基金管理局陳明賢陳局長歡迎您再來是行政院我們歡迎行政院人事行政總處蘇俊榮人事長歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1997.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1998.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
行政院內政部人事處 林文靜副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2020.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2024.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
社交警察國防部資源規劃司人力資源處陳家麒教育部人事處王崇斌教育人員勞動部勞動保險司蔡家華專門委員勞動福祉退休司陳思賢 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2050.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2076.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
行政院主計總署﹐有基金預算處的吳婉玉專門委員﹐歡迎您有公務預算處的陳台偉﹐陳科長﹐歡迎您內政部警政署﹐人事室﹐劉永福﹐劉副主任﹐歡迎您內政部消防署﹐也是人事室的鄭鴻斌﹐鄭主任﹐歡迎您我們內政部移民署﹐人事室的嚴少儀主任﹐歡迎您 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2078.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2098.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
內政部空中勤務總隊的林國強副總隊長歡迎您以及海洋委員會海巡署人事室的陳建宏專務委員歡迎您好那今天呢我們把今天相關可能這個政府機關的代表都足以介紹了那接下來呢我們就請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2101.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2125.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
討論提綱一本次公務人員退休資遣撫蓄改革的重要性正當性與必要性為何二一百十三年一月一日起或一百十四年後停止退休所得替代率降低財務的影響如何是否引發世代公平性爭議三恢復退休人員月退休所得隨限職人員待遇調整或退休所得跟著CPI調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2127 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2132.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
4.退休所的調整機制是否都採用CPI累計成長率5. |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2132.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2140.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
退出役官兵轉任公職者其均值年資是否應合併計入退休年資6. |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2140.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2142.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
未維持公平性是否排除84年 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2143.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2143.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2191.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2192.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2217.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2237.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
發言：針對學者專家以及委員的意見加以回應與會者請至發言臺發言在我主席的右手邊為學者專家列席機關代表的發言臺左手邊就是我們委員的發言臺由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2238.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2242.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
每位學者專家的發言時間為10分鐘本院委員的發言時間為5分鐘主管機關有提供書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2267.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2269.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
有沒有需要先做一個口頭補充?有沒有必要? |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2294.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2296.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第一位是由我們高士南高理事長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2329.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2355.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
主席、總委員、現場的政府機關代表、各位先進大家好我是全國公務院學院理事長高士南我們在這裡請就本會針對今天的議題提出我們的簡要的意見我們就從反命題來談起就是針對107的年改到底它有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2357.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2384.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們認為107年的公務人員的年改是一個政策不當不當比尼嚴厲苛扣違法違憲甚至於是惡意污名的一個不正當跟不公義的一個政策制度我們如果從政策不當的層面來看當初政府假借年改財務問題用政府破產來恐嚇民眾提出所謂的希臘的債務危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2386.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2404.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
但是我們知道年金的破產不等於政府的破產我們的財政已經養好所以沒有什麼財政破產的問題其次不斷比擬的一個部分所以我們剛剛提到財政的理由是一個假議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2405.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2431.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
就不當比擬的問題政府當初把不同的公務人員跟勞工人員的退休制度相比由於他們的性質跟基點的不同提撥的基點比率都有相當大的不同所以根本就是香蕉比芭樂是刻意在製造族群的對立跟矛盾第三點我們如果就嚴格克扣違法違憲來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2432.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2448.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那我想當初在年改的時候最主要有三個版本考試院從80降到70%所得替代率的一個緩和的版本然後總統府改革會也就是後來行政院的版本是從75%降到60%然後他的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2457.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2483.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
18%的這個所謂的優惠存款是分6年停止到零那最嚴苛的版本就是當初段宜康委員所提出來的一樣是從75%砍到60%分10年然後呢這個優惠存款兩年歸零但是呢最後立法院通過的是最嚴苛的版本那我們如果從這個歐美國家對這個年金制度具有財產權保障這樣的性質 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2485.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2507.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
基本上我們認為剛剛既然沒有公益遣體的這個砍退休金這樣的理由的話那他基本上的前提就不對那麼如果退一敗不贏只有一天天的公益的理由那你要遵循這個法治國家所謂比例原則應該採取最寬鬆的這樣的一個版本就是考試院的版本但是在最後是提 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2508.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2531.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
以最嚴苛的版本大法官其實從來就不敢面對這樣的一個問題所以它不但是違反比例原則違反了憲法上的信賴保護、誠信、法律不屬及既往這樣的一個原則所以它是一個違法違規違憲違法的這樣的一個最後我們更不能忍受的就是這個惡意的汙名 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2532.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2560.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我想我們這公務員的年金被砍也就罷了但是政府為了要合理化他的正當性不惜用這個米蟲這樣的名詞把一生奉獻給國家的退休的公務員以及在職的公務員奉公說法的公務員都罵為米蟲所以今天我們在這裡都要談反霸凌談霸凌的問題的話這種污衊難道不是對全國所有公務員最大的一個霸凌嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2561.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2562.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
反改革政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2582.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2598.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
有關本次退休改革我們要停砍退休金這個停止遞減它的正當性我們認為它最大的理由就是在於確保退休公務人員的一個生存權那首先我們來看看逐年遞減的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2600.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2625.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們看到今年第1年現在到第5年不算今年的話他砍了5年也就75%7.5%但是呢這只是表面我們看到的我們都知道依照舊制只要服務滿30、35年以上幾乎他們依照舊制可以領八成到八五成薪那我們如果從八五成八成這樣來計算的話那他第一年被砍就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2626.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2626.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第4頁的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2643.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2665.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
合計的月退薪平均僅為本縫的這1.6、1.7倍那所得替代率要乘以1.18才是真正的替代率但是大家不要忘了替代率的計算是以前15年的平均月退縫作為平均不是退休當時的他們現在所比較的一個基礎如果以15年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2666.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2680.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所提出來的比,那是剛剛我們看到李艾熙前理事長的報告裏面那是砍到只有佔到月退工的8到9成,8成左右所以我們看到這個出管機關所提出來的資訊是一個錯誤的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2681.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2710.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
再來就是物價膨脹,過去幾年來每一年的物價膨脹大約都在3%然後提高這個提撥率110年到112年政府每年提高1%公務人員退休的提撥率是從12%逐漸提高到15%那今年調整的問題我們的租款機關說我們今年的調整有三四次所以呢,它調整是造成實質薪水的增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2711.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2731.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
但是我在這裡要告訴大家我個人分別在113年跟114年我們參加了人事局跟教育部所提出來的年薪調漲的一個研議會議我們就加上這些逐年被砍 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2733.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2753.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
然後物價膨脹提高提撥率我們要求在113年114年他調整的這個幅度應該分別是至少是6.5%以上或者6%才有辦法去抵消我們剛剛所在逐年遞減加上這個物價膨脹等這些因素但是我們113年114年我們只調4%跟3% |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2756.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2782.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以我們明目看起來好像是薪水增加但其實實質上他的薪水是減少的所以我們要用這個來打破這個我們主管機關的這樣的一個說辭那至於影響到生存權的問題我們聽到很多我們最近在為什麼我們在推動這個停趕退休金的法案我們聽到很多的我們公務人員的退休前輩他們提到他們新制舊制 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2784.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2795.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
加計起來他們所能夠領的退休金每個月已經都接近我們的樓地板過去幾年前是三萬兩千塊現在已經因為調薪已經漲到三千七百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2798.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2826.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那當初我們說這樣是可以維持一個公務員的基本生活他基本上是已經忽略了做一個公務員他退休他可能還有什麼奉養父母養育子女的這樣的一個責任更何況他越來越老的時候他身體越來越差他可能流亡重病所以我們聽到很多的我們的這個退休的前輩來跟我們講要停侃了再不停侃他們的退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2828.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2856.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
現在因為他們的重大的疾病甚至於罹癌他們請不起看護他們不敢去看醫生因為更負擔不起所以他們講說他天天都是在過著等死的這樣的一個日子可憐啊 只在等死所以我們真的要請問我們的政府對於一生奉獻給國家的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2857.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2876.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
你就這樣子對待他嗎?你這樣一刀一刀的砍他們就像在凌恥處死他們一樣是一刀一刀在刮他們的血肉難道你到現在針對這麼多的這樣的一個困苦的公務人員你要繼續砍下去嗎?你還有一刀一刀在刮他們的血肉嗎?好 我們接下來看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2881.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2897.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
政府檢討的機制 最近幾年 政府的財政觀點好 稅收都有超增所以足以負擔未來撥補的這樣的一個責任 所以我們在這裡強調對於107年公務年改的這樣的惡法 我們應該立即來停止逐年遞減這樣的一個作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2906.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2927.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 第二個我們說停止退休金會不會影響財務是否引起世代的一個這個正義的問題那麼所以要講我們要建議如果我們停止退休金之後其實這個都是政府的責任有兩個方向可以來做一個努力那首先就是我們要加強基金的經營績效我們根據這個110年 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2932.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2942.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
最近第8次的政府的一個精算就是我們前機管會現在機管局局長在這邊他們精算在貪體或不貪體過去負債的時候他的報酬只要能夠達到6.2%或5%他就50年不破產那我們基金的預算是以50年作為設算 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2953.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2974.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
然後呢 如果要依法撥補基金的話 也根據同樣一個經狀報告政府如果每年能夠撥補285億 這是公務人員的撥補教室的部分每年撥補236億 那他要總共撥補521億那公教人員的退伏基金 50年不會破產 這個都是政府可以做到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2977.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3005.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
然後我們說再看看世代正義的問題如果政府能夠採取這些措施根本就不會影響到世代的公平性我們從代內的正義來看我們現行的確定給付制其實它就傾向於複刻制我們自己提撥一點政府負大部分的最後的法定責任它的精神是誰到誰負世代的團結跟互助但是被政府操作成是世代的對立 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3006.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3034.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他是用這一代去負擔上一代的退休金下一代來負擔這一代的退休金這就是除菁致我們現在趨向除菁致這樣的一個精神所以沒有代內所謂的公平爭議的問題第二個我們就說代計爭議來講我們基於使用者付費政府提供所有的基礎設施公共服務他們所要需求的經費就是用稅收來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3036.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3050.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這在財政學上提供公共財然後收取稅收來支柱所謂的各種的政府服務的成本這本來就天經地義的財政學上經濟學上都是這樣告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3052.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3075.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那公務員的退休福利薪水不就是提供這個公共財公共服務所必要的稅收的一部分嗎那這為什麼還有所謂影響到所謂的這個全民負擔稅收來負擔這個政府的退休金這樣的一個所謂的是代替公平的這種問題沒有這樣的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3077.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3095.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以我們這裡要求政府必須加強基金的績效依法提撥退休基金來促進基金的永續經營所以我們現在即便是修法只要能夠運用這樣的一個手段的話停止所得替代率的一個降低也不會造成有所謂的世代公平爭議的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3096.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3097.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
後面有幾個議題請大家參考書面上的主要狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3112.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3136.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 謝謝謝謝我們那個高理事長那麼還是要跟今天的與會的學者專家代表因為今天人數我們有多達13位那我們在時間沒有響鈴之前他會有一個一分鐘是不是倒數一分鐘的時候會一聲響鈴然後第二次響鈴就是時間到那請大家控制好 謝謝那接下來我們就請那個林碩傑林理事長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3139.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3157.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
主席、各位先進、大家好這個我們全教程今天主要是針對這個停砍的這個議題來做發表一些意見那公教人員他們月退休金因為年改每年要下砍這個1.5%那從107年到113年已經砍了7.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3165.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3171.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
同時同一個時段在106年12月的物價指數97.35一直到112年12月的106.59來看的話如果說你從110年來看的話會有5.51如果說從97年來看的話消費者物價指數已經漲了超過9.24%兩者合起來其實已經超過了16% |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3194.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3220.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那基層的公教人員他跟我們回饋就是說其實這已經是雙砍了砍得其實蠻嚴重的那對他們的退休生活影響非常的嚴重影響非常的大所以我們草案也講說那砍夠了吧砍夠了吧因為公教要退伏機遇啊剛剛就是前面高理事長講過說有調整可是調整根本跟不上通膨 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3221.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3222.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
請停止所得替代率逐年降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3241.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3263.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
全序部在書面報告講到年改是將退撫基金用慶年度延長到2051年若一旦停侃年金將提早幾年估計未來五十年億住近人會減少2800億所以全序部不建議修法這個部分我們認為說全序部是唬人的全序部是唬人的 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3271.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3299.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
你在其他的文件裡面都不會去強調當然說精算報告裡面講到50年不用慶可是你們並不願意採取它裡面所講到50年不用慶的一個因應措施那在全序的各項文件裡面都沒有去強調50年這個東西可是現在這裡強調50年不用慶了50年要減少2800億的缺口事實上我們認為說2800億如果除以50年平均一年只要撥補56億 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3302.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3312.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
二千八除以五十一年撥補十六億因為那個勞動部長之前也針對說表態不堪其負而且強調說撥補就是改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3314.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3331.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
所以我們需要這個全序部也要求全序部也呼籲全序部要去推動撥補這56億但是針對公務人員的部分的政策因為相較於這個勞保基金從2020年一直到現在已經撥補2670億那勞動部長他也之前有強調說撥補就是改革所以政府透過撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3344.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3369.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
勞保財務進行實踐勞保改革但是退補基金有沒有2670億沒有那113年只有公務人員50億交易人員50億那如果說撥補可以稱為改革那軍公教年改當初的撥補額度也遠低於勞保那當初為什麼不用撥補呢而卻是用多繳少領延後退 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3371.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3388.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這不是大小眼,什麼是大小眼?這樣有公平性嗎?我們強烈的質疑政府都說錢不夠事實上稅收每年都超徵好幾千億而且基層人員都看到了8800億的前瞻計畫、1000億的新南鄉政策、2849億的核四封存、兩兆的離岸封店 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3394.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3421.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
看到這些大家覺得政府真的是沒有錢嗎這個部分我們是覺得滿質疑的勞動部長他強調說撥補及即時改革即使也是認證2017年的多繳少領延後退的靈感是錯誤的政策因為撥補就可以改革為什麼要弄一個多繳少領延後退呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3424.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3449.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個我們認為這個是霸凌公教人員剛剛高理事長也強調說這霸凌的確是霸凌而且這個我們看了之前全教統的資料他說以退休人員公務人員延漏到140年教育人員延漏到130年都是因為以退休公教人員少領跟現在職公教人員多角在職 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3451.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3477.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
在職者的沿路退休營所貢獻出來的我要講說是什麼這是民進黨聯合全教總在霸凌公教人員我們認為說這是利益良善可是怎樣手段粗暴利益良善手段粗暴我們認為說這樣的方式齊齊不可齊也不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3478.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3497.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
全教總,當初我們在開記者會的時候他們是在裡面跟民進黨協商我們在開記者會批判民進黨的時候他們開記者會還批判我們其實今天全教總跟全教會代表在現場照片裡面都可以看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3504.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3526.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
這只是一個證據歷史證據永遠不會消失政府分10年來降低所得替代率來講其實對於退休人員是一種凌遲這種又長達10年我們期盼說這樣的一個凌遲連續砍10年的慘絕症狀的心態這樣的做法能夠再停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3528.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3546.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
當初打著消滅18%的口號爭取選票可是事實上砍的並不是18%而是所有的央期所有的公教退休族而且要分10年一直嚴格的砍下去那我們再強調一下其實現在我們講說這個停止所得壓力再逐年降低其實應該是有人說是停砍或者是說其實不是停砍應該是說他是每一年砍一條血管 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3552.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3563.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
刊了到現在5條血管就停了那這5條血管還每年繼續失血後面就不要再繼續刊了因為再刊到第10條血管的話這些退休人員可能都活不下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3564.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3568.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
退休金被砍,生活只好精打細算得過,但年老體弱多病,齒牙動搖,視力模糊,多的手術都必須付出昂貴醫療費 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3588.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3597.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
再加上平時慢性病的開銷早已入不敷出老年生活無保障請何以堪急需各位為我們又老又窮的退休公教人員發聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3600.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3625.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
退休後大筆醫療費用支出已讓我不知如何生活今年初又不慎跌倒造成癱瘓手術自費部分就要7萬多遠遠超過目前的月退休金現在住業中不曉得要花多少錢正午的1.5%遞減政策一定要停止要體諒退休人員的疾苦和通膨所造成的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3627.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3650.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
其實這些案例蠻多的我如果念下去可能至少要一個小時基於尊重別人的發言時間我最後再講一下兩任勞動部長都表態不會砍勞保給付甚至強調說撥補就是改革撥補即是改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3653.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3668.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個其實也漸漸認證2017年多腳掃領延後退年改是錯誤的政策2017年多腳掃領延後退的年改是錯誤政策這是基層的心聲不是口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3670.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3696.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那依據這個公務人員退休撫卹基金管理會委託基金第8次精算報告的建議啊就剛高理事長所講的就是其實政府應該免了撥補公務人員285億、教育人員286億以維持50年基金不用慶達到退撫基金永續發展的目標可是事情現在有沒有達成呢?沒有這個今年只有各撥補50億那明年是 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3697.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3723.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
合計194億都沒有達到50年不用勤的這樣一個撥補的目標所以我們強烈的呼籲建議全序部要推動每年再多撥補56億的政策來解決全序部認為說未來50年一柱金額因為停侃的這個法案做通過的話它如果會有2800億的缺口讓本來停止所得替代率再逐年降低這主張能夠順利推行 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3727.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3728.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
李萊熙前理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3753.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3780.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
主席 各位女士 各位先生 大家午安今天這個議題相對單純我們不是要談受給寄往 是不是合憲我們也不是要談信賴保護我們只是很單純 很卑微的要求在物價指數飆漲的今天可不可以暫時砍了這麼多之後讓我們的軍公教的朋友能夠喘一口氣 休養一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3781.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3806.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
然後先把過去這幾年執行的成果做一個徹底的檢討那我們再來看看未來要怎麼去改而且這是法律所明文規定五年改革時間到就要滾動性的檢討全序部到今天還沒有提出完整的報告不是你沒有提而是呼嚨性的提出一個報告沒有一個完整的報告告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3807.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3821.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
6年半以來所謂的年金改革改到今天我們的退休的軍公教朋友哀鴻遍野的情況之下他們怎麼樣繼續過下去今天只是很卑微的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3822.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3849.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
因為自從大法官會議 屈從全市 創設出一個叫不真正的搜集記網不確定的搜集記網 不完全的搜集記網為當權者開通 侵害了退休公務員的權益我今天不再跟各位談什麼叫搜集記網我只是談數字 因為今天講的是暫緩停止遞減的那個起伏 其實就是錢的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3851.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3878.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那這個錢其實多不多一點都不多12月2號自由時報頭版頭條公然造假說未來5年假如今天這個停的話政府還要等於少一柱2800億上個禮拜五全區部長終於承認不是5年是50年可是自由時報是頭版頭條告訴我們5年政府就少一柱2800億 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3882.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3901.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
一個是56億一年一個是561億一年自由時報到今天還沒有出來道歉就是要鼓動民粹還要繼續鬥爭我們軍公教的朋友那既然大家來談這個數據我今天講數據會說話我們今天就把數據呈現給大家大家來看一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3902.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3915.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
年改三個主要訴求第一個就是國家財政困難第二個基金要破產新的世代可能領不到第三個軍工叫朋友吃太飽領太多要錢我們的國家財政是困難的嗎107年實施改革的時候我們的國家總預算是一兆九千多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3927.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3956.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
今年我們國家的財政我們的預算是兩兆九千多億我們明年就要到三兆一千億國家的預算越來越多但是我們軍公教的退伍預算一直都沒有增加比例自然就呈現縮小我們國家真的沒有錢嗎我們來超收今年要超收四千億平均過去這麼多年每一年超收兩千七百億然後我們亂撒幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3958.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3976.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
我們有8年8800億 我們有8年8400億的這個黃億預算然後台電一補就是5000億然後我們錢多到可以發消費券 可以發振興券振興券一次不夠 發第二次這錢哪裡來 這錢竟然是舉債而來 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3979.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3983.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我們不只舉債發消費券舉債發振興券我們還舉債買國防武器買那些破銅爛鐵然後 這個負擔要軍公叫朋友來負擔說你們吃垮國家的未來國家已經沒有錢了 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3996.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4008.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
我們的政府在2024年國際貨幣基金會告訴我們全世界公共債務最多的國家不是台灣日本佔GDP251 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4010.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4015.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
新加坡占175%美國121%法國112%臺灣公共債務負擔根據IMF的報告只有占我們GDP的26%主基礎的報告說我們的公共債務占我們的國家的GDP是36%不管是26也好 36也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4038.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4050.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
跟世界各國比起來我們的財務真的是好到不得了怎麼告訴我們國家財政困難我們國家財政困難還可以這樣大傻逼嗎我們超收的預算不只超收我們每一年還有稅計剩餘都跑哪裡去了錢這麼多你告訴我們沒有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4066.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4069.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
中華民國公共債務5兆5千億中央4兆5千億地方9千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4086.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4098.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這些五兆五千億沒有一分錢舉證的錢用在我們中央跟地方的軍公教人員的退休待遇跟服役身上一毛錢都沒有你舉證用的錢聽用傻逼消化券可以舉證振興券可以舉證買武器可以舉證 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4109.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4132.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
那就是軍公教的退休福利跟待遇沒有舉證被你汙衊成米蟲你告訴我請問國家產生困難嗎這第一個數據是錯的第二個告訴我們基金要破產再不改我們的新世代可能領不到退休金就是用在位職人員來鬥爭我們的退休人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4133.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4161.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
問題是我們的退休人員或是具有84年就職年資的人員他們那時候拿來的基金他們是用公共預算拿退休金的沒有基金何來基金破產我們今天所有退休人員領到的退休金有兩筆一個是郵局的這個退伍金就是就職一個是薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4163.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4189.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
臺灣銀行的退休帳戶我們說改革既然基金要破產是不是應該緊縮你的基金的所得可是各位曉得我們退休人員拿到那個帳簿改了是什麼錢改了是舊制純舊制N體制84年以前年制的錢你告訴我們老人是啃食年輕人的未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4190.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4197.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
老人付出他的代價在養年輕人在補基金的漏洞補多少這6年多來聽說是補了2774億到了明年會超過3000億補這麼多錢只有這樣嗎還有年終慰問金耶年終慰問金一年少了190億已經是11年超過2000億 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4217.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4238.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我們的老人退休的老人為這個國家在制度改革到今天為止已經付出超過5000億的負擔結果你告訴我們基金會破產我們基金會破產嗎今天我們的退伏基金從改革之前的5000多億到今天已經9885億10月底加劇11月跟這個月我們到年底我們的退伏基金會破燒 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4246.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4262.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們的公保基金從4千多億到今天是5千8百多億兩個基金加起來超過1兆5千億然後我們的所得再降低你告訴我們基金會破產基金會破產就領不到錢嗎會破產的只有退伏基金老保基金缺口13兆榮報基金是歸零 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4272.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4298.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
農保基金現在一毛錢都沒有每一年要發農保幾戶還要跟勞保基金借錢還要付勞保基金利息然後政府再編預算在第二年還給農保基金農保破產了你告訴我我們的農民哪一個人沒有因為這樣而領不到退休金農保歸零你還是領到退休金的欸農保如果歸零 領不到 領不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4300.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4302.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
勞工領的錢的五倍六倍好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4321.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4336.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
全力應用相當可不可以你又說不行基金會破產是個假議題第三個議題就是基金公教朋友吃太飽領太多我們領不管多不管少該多就多該少就少不該我們領的領一毛錢都抓去關該多的就要給我們多如果多就是罪過那郭台銘一年領鼓勵一百多億應該抓去關 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4348.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4369.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
是不是我們的軍人搞個洗衣機帶回家就被抓去判多少年不是多跟少的問題而是該不該領該多就是說該少就少第三個經營績效的問題再給我兩分鐘績效的問題我們的退休基金今年到10月底以前我們賺了1460億去年賺了997.75億 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4376.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4380.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
中文字幕 沛隊字幕小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4392.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4408.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
你有沒有想一想看你要不要還給我們沒有 還要繼續砍砍到多少錢 剛剛講了一年只有56億一年56億你撥不起嗎 全民部長56億出不起嗎基金今年就賺1600億去年賺將近1000億奇怪 告訴我沒錢是奇怪的那 推進要隨物價指數 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4418.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4443.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
隨限職人員的調薪調整這是天經地義的事我們過去今年調4%我們夥伴們也是調4%可是這4%是什麼4%它是減薪之後的4%可是每一年要扣你1.5%是減薪之前的1.5%下個月1號又要扣1.5%這是我們心中的痛每個月都會來每一年都會來 非常準時 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4444.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4470.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這是我們非常痛苦 我們叫臨時式的改革我們希望痛苦到此為止 森德先生說 寬恕是要走和解的路我都同意 我想寬恕 我也想和解問題你每一年 每一個月 把刀子架在我的脖子上還要砍 還要狙殺 請問我怎麼和解 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4471.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4472.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
羅德水監理委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4500.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4510.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
主席各位先進我做以下的報告我的主題是年金檢討跟基金永續我想分4個段落來跟大家做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4511.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4512.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4530.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4556.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
監控機制但是缺乏對整個年改方案的檢討跟反省那我以下就從我的觀點提出幾個年改的缺失我想如果有機會國會、朝委黨團應該正式這樣的缺失然後有機會來加以導正首先第一個當然大家剛才講很過主要就是政府是公教人員的雇主我覺得年改的過程這個政府的雇主責任被規避 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4557.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4557.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
選擇性改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4575.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4603.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
年改本來是講軍公教老都改但是軍公教改完就停了甚至軍公教的部分軍跟公教其實也是脫鉤的所以到最後其實剩下的就是公教公教的年改那勞保的潛航負債遠高於公教的退幅但是政府卻說這個是撥補就是改革同樣的邏輯如果用在公教人員我想公教人員至少能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4605.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4631.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
有一個公平合理的討論看怎麼樣能夠基金永續但是很顯然是有差別待遇第三個雙重標準這是怎麼一回事就是本來在年改以前公教人員有一筆叫做年資補償金那這個年資補償金其實是公務預算而且本來入保跟退補基金的財務一點關係都沒有但是年改上路以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4632.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4656.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
軍人繼續保留公教卻直接刪除我想這是很明顯的雙重標準第4個是整個臨改的邏輯他是先設定替代率然後用天花板來倒推所以逐年把替代率往下降他造成了很多混亂的現象我簡單舉一個例子就好了比如說剛才我問了高理事長他年資42年可以退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4657.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4678.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
但是如果按照我們現在的這種退休給予的標準他40年以上的年資是不採計的36年以上的年資是打折給付的這個很明顯就是違反有年資就有給付給付應該均等這樣一個公平的原則第5個整個年改基本上就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4679.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4706.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
穿著衣服改衣服所以它出現非常多混亂的現象各位知道嗎我們現在的公保的費率有五種公保跟勞保應該是最基礎的社會保險應該是簡單然後一致那都應該給年金但是公保的部分竟然有五種費率主要原因就是因為一二新制上路以後未來的新進人員他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4708.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4725.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
職業年金相對少所以又給予他們公保年金的補償但是相對的現職的公教人員公保卻只能被迫一次給付第6個也講了很多了就是大家也都看到很多報導高普考考試的人變少沒有人要當老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4728.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4737.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
整個年改不應該只有基金的財務問題它其實是一個社會工程我覺得當初沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4739.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4765.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
關注到關照到整個這種公教人員的感受以及整個國家公務員需要有一定的品質一定的素質我覺得這個以後會後悔莫及當優秀的國民都不願意投入公職這個對國家是災難為什麼撥補是當務之急簡單講幾個理由我們的勞保跟退補還有公保其實台灣現在主流的退休金這三個都是確定給複製 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4766.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4769.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
確定給付是他就是你如果要讓讓他維持這個給付能夠兌現然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4774.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4795.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
維持這個基金的永續平衡不外這幾個參數營運效能費率與給付投保跟領取的人數出生率平均與命這是確定給付制會嚴重影響整個確定給付制的這個退休金的基金財務的幾個重要參數各位可以看一下這11年來我統計的從2013到2023這11年 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4800.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4828.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
現在圖上的這幾檔基金有的是確定給付有的是確定提撥簡單來講不管它是什麼制度報酬率都不是很好最高的大概就是公保11年的平均有超過6%那公保從成立到現在應該也是相對最好的那大概也約莫就是7%左右其他多數的基金可能都是5%以下我覺得這個有很很大的努力空間能夠讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4830.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4855.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
我們的基金更永續然後能夠保障在職跟退休人員的基本權益就是這一個績效我想有必要能夠看用什麼方式能夠努力讓他這個績效能夠再提升這個是在職跟已經退休人的這個比比較各位看一下勞保這個退休人數十幾年來增加了快十倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4856.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4877.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
退撫基金也是一樣所以正是因為這樣他更需要撥補因為公教的退撫基金已經改革過了所以當務之急就是在新制上路以後他造成了財務缺口就是要趕快來撥補這是我們在監理委員會的提案也獲得委員的支持跟通過那怎麼撥補簡單來講現在就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4880.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4898.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
立法院要求撥補 全序部也確實有去精算怎麼撥補法 那就是分了3個年段 10年 15年 20年用這個表來看非常清楚 用10年撥補的金額 總金額還比分20年少了710億 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4900.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4900.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4925.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4952.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
缺口的撥補那我們建議因為現在是剛好在總預算的審議我覺得有沒有機會能夠在總預算因為也不能徵嘛那能不能有一個主決議希望明年開始在編後年的時候這個預算就用10年的數字來做撥補那針對112的新制我想可能必須再提醒一下這兩個是一個很不一樣的制度確定起復制跟確定提撥制 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4953.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4954.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
政府放棄原來的確定級複製 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4971.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4971.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4993.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4993.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5010.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5038.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
基金領慶以後就沒有退休金可以領這個是112新制就跟勞退新制一樣第二個就是保障不足剛才有講到我們的確定給付資的退休金包括勞保跟退府現在的退府退休人員都還可以跟著物價指數有公式去做調整各位這個112新制未來是沒有調整機制的他領完就沒有也沒有調整機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5041.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5046.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
就算他的報酬率很好 事實上也沒有好他也難以抵禦這個通貨膨脹 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5048.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5049.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
公務人員退休資遣撫卹法 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5070.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5071.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
好 謝謝羅監理委員接下來請羅委員志強發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5097.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5123.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
主席還有我們在座很多的專家學者跟關心軍公教育議題的朋友還有我們所有的機關的首長高官開豪車文官動死鼓我今天早上在審考試院的預算考試院本來應該就是公務人員最強後盾我看到一個景象讓我非常感慨 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5125.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5132.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我們考試院的首長要買車他要編的預算一輛車210萬考試院的副首長也要買車一輛車的預算195萬我跟各位說那主計總署跟我講這是他們調查出來的一個因為要買電動車所以他們調查出來的行情價210萬195萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5156.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5171.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
我不是說今天首長副首長不能買車不能有公務車但是我只說一句話對比今天對於公教我們的公務員我們的退休金砍得刀刀劍骨的今天能看嗎高官酒肉臭文官動屎骨不就這個景象嗎在這邊我要特別講我就有兩項主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5184.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5208.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
第一個是公務人員的退休待遇砍得夠了吧 夠了吧 夠了吧第二個 圍牢人員的特殊貢獻應該獲得合理的回應對於錦霄 海巡 空總 移民署這些圍牢勤務人員他的退休待遇的保障 退休的保障政府應該要重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5210.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5235.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們來看看今天我們所關心的這個所謂的年金改革其實就是公務人員退休金你到底政府要砍多少我說過我沒有反對年金改革阿我相信很多公務員朋友也沒有反對阿所以當它啟動了5年之後從所得替代率本奉兩倍的75%現在已經砍到67.5了 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5240.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5263.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
公務人員已經被砍了兩千多億了血肉都砍去了這邊只不過是請你留下他的股跟金而已啊沒有那麼了不起的要求啊很卑微啊但是呢今天政府告訴我們什麼抱歉啊國家財政困難那我們就來看看國家財政到底是困難到什麼程度 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5264.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5273.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
國家財政困難到首長必須要買210萬的車 好困難欸國家財政困難到副首長要買195萬元的車 好困難啊國家財政困難到每年稅收超徵3000億 4000億 5000億 好困難啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5284.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5294.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
國家財政困難到今天就業暗地基金可以變成首長的小金庫幾百萬拿去裝潢幾百萬拿去開演唱會幾百萬拿去做影片開心得不得了啊國家財政真的好困難啊你能夠交代得過去說服得了公務員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5307.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5318.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
今天當初我們民進黨政府一直在強調的一件什麼他強調說政府會破產阿如果今天不把公務員砍死政府會破產阿是這樣嗎我舉一個例子我個人主張政府對勞保要負最終的保證責任甚至我主張要入法勞工是政府該要保障的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5337.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5359.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
但勞保有沒有面臨所謂的財務的問題有沒有所謂的破產的問題沒有阿政府跟我講勞保不會倒阿賴清德的主張跟我一樣阿政府負擔最終承諾的保證責任阿但我的標準一致阿那為什麼遇到勞保今天政府跟我講政府會倒遇到 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5360.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5373.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
軍公教遇到勞保他就說政府不會打但遇到軍公教遇到我們公務人員他就說政府會打標準有一致嗎最後我還是要非常感慨的說就像我第二點主張除了一般公務人員我們現在我們的政府對待過去締造台灣經濟奇蹟我們社會安定繁榮的公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5388.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5388.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
謝謝羅文 接下來有請紅衛兵執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5424.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5448.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
主席 委員 各位在場的先進及媒體朋友午安我是全教總集體協商執行長 洪偉斌在這邊我代表全教總提出我們的看法我們覺得公教退撫的修法應該關注的是公教退撫基金的世代公平正義跟基金永續部分我們也知道公教基金是一個共同基金而非 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5449.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5455.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
個人贊護制那是牢固共同提撥而且存在有所謂世代互助的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5456.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5480.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
基金財務的健全與否其實是影響的全體公務人員包含在職跟退休人員的權利因此公教退府條例的修法我們呼籲國會跟政府應該提出相關的配套措施來確保全體公教人員的退休權利那106年政府高舉著 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5481.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5495.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
不改革基金就破產的大旗分別修訂了公務人員退休資遣撫卹法跟公立學校教職員的資遣撫卹辦法改革目的都是要延後基金的用期年限 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5496.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5505.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
退撫其實是精算科學我們從退撫基金的第7次精算報告精算日期是106年到第8次精算報告精算日期是109年 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5511.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5538.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
剛好跨過了年金改革那我們也看到精算報告的部分確實公務人員從130年的破產到延長到140年教育人員部分從129年到137年那但是呢我們看一下這結果怎麼造成的這結果是由退休人員少領再職公教員多角還有再職者延後退休年達成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5540.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5555.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這裡面好像少了一個角色 就是顧政府的角色政府在這邊是顧主耶 顧主完全沒有承擔任何責任改革的責任完全落到受僱者公教人員身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5557.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5572.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這樣公平嗎?這樣的政府的責任不見了但是一個除外,軍人的退伏不見了軍人退伏在第8次精算裡面沒有任何破產的可能,為什麼?因為107年 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5575.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5592.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
改革之後每一年政府都對軍人的退伏額外的撥補100億每年100億對公教沒有這是我們剛剛德水老師所提的光這個地方就出現了一個不平等的不公平的改革方式另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5594.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5609.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
在年改之後對於通過的公教退撫條例裡面公教的給付部分除了原有的新就制的給付率之外多了一個所謂的服務年資所得替代業限制也就是我們俗稱的從108年到118年逐年下降1.5%的 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5616.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5621.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
所謂下降那以35名為例就從75%下降到60%這就是公務退休人員的掃領 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5630.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5630.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5646.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5673.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
移住4千多億教育人員大概可以移住5千多億這已經納入第8次精算報告我們可以從根據全序部跟教育部的移住經費從108萬到現在大概移住了2700多億目前貴院所排審的公務人員退休之前撫恤法裡面的修正條文就是要討論停止逐年下降所得替代率停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5675.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5676.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
公聽會：立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5694.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5715.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
我們看到年代是以消減公教人員的退休給付來節省經費挹注回基金那用來處理之前的基金的潛藏負債部分但是當時政府並沒有對公教相對提撥就是剛剛講的軍人有100億公教完全沒有因此這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5717.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5746.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
一柱財務的新缺口全家總認為應該由政府來負起所謂的雇主責任來填補不應該再由退撫基金來承擔否則退撫基金的用期年限將會再提前那也就會造成在職工作人員可能無法領到退休金或者是再次面臨到年金改革這個有違基金的世代公平正義因此在修法討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5749.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5769.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
停止逐年下降所得TIG我們認為不應該只討論要不要停止而是國會和政府應該提出相對的配套說實來解決這個所謂的易住財務的新缺口才是保障全體公教人員包含在職跟退休人員的退休權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5774.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5785.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
公教退休撥補已經法制化政府應該儘速完成撥補根據第8次精算報告目前基金的潛藏負債債務嚴峻 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5788.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5805.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
而106年的改革是以削減公教人員的給付來節省經費移住回基金也就是處理潛藏負債的部分但我們當時沒有看到政府相對提撥也就是在106年改革政府刻意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5806.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5823.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
忽略了所謂的僱主責任為什麼說這麼說呢因為我們不是說我們的退休條例裡面有一個叫做政府會負起最後支付責任嗎這件事情如果沒有實踐就是口號這件事情如果沒有實踐就是口號 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5825.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5848.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那因此在110年111年抱歉110年貴院通過了公教退輔新制個人帳戶的時候同時也修正了公教人員公教的退輔條例明確的撥補法之話要求政府必須依照精算來撥補所謂的退輔的新舊缺口那我們可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5851.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5870.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
這個就是一直秀出來的撥補的一個連線這個是由全訓部所自己所做出來的113年是一份公告的公務人員退休撫卹基金10年撥補計畫那有明定了10年15年20年但是我們看到我們看到政府113年只撥了100億114年目前預算只編了 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5875.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5880.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
194億分20年撥補20年撥補什麼意思20年撥補如果114年撥補24年剛好134年破產年限以教育的年限是137請問一下撥完剛好要破產請問一下那些潛藏負債怎麼辦舊缺口怎麼辦所以我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5897.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5910.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
應該依照經算的數字用10年撥補．才能夠快速的補足新的缺口．而且這個10年經算的撥補．又會比20年多節省了710億．我們這個沒辦法理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5916.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5936.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
10年和20年政府的財政可以節省710億為什麼選擇一個20年又接近破產的年限這樣的撥補意義何在因此我們呼籲在審預算期間朝野政黨應該督促政府採10年的撥補方案才對於基金最有利 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5938.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5959.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
另外對於公務人員的退休調整機制部分我們認為政府應該善待為國家奉獻一輩子的公教人員在現行的公教退服條例裡面對於調整部分只有一消費者物價指數達5%比較明確其他都抽象名詞但是我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5963.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5978.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
退休金的調整其實在滿足生活的尊嚴那我們的物價指數是依照什麼計算還是我們應該思考一下應該用所謂的重要的民生物價指數 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5980.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6006.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
而不是用消費者物價指數來當作指標而且它是不是一旦明定到累積百分之五才調整呢我們也認為應該降低那一個指數適時的調整才能夠讓我們的公教退休人員的生活水平不至於下降因此最後我做三點的呼籲第一個在討論停止下降所得替代月的時候國會和政府應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6007.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6037.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
提出相對的方案保障健全退補基金 第二個撥補法制化之後政府應該盡快的完成撥補而不要拖 第三個在公交退休金的調整上面應該用重要的物價指數來做調整機制 以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來有請紅衛兵對不起 有請侯俊良理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6046.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6069.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
主席還有各位先進大家午安我是全國教師會理事長侯俊良老師首先我想我要先做一個澄清的說明因為剛剛有一個與會者代表特別提到我想在整個106年的年金改革過程當中全教總或全教會一直被污蔑 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6070.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6096.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
對於整個年金的一個改革是一個推動的一個助手我想再一次的強調這是一個嚴重的污衊這是一個嚴重的污衊這是一個嚴重的污衊以下我所有的論述會秉持的包括106年當時通過的年金改革到現在為止我們強調了兩個部分第一個顧主責任的一個給付顧主責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6101.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6123.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
整個理性的改革要有完整的配套措施106年如此,現在也是如此全國教師會作為全國最主要的一個教師組織我們應該有責任去做這方面的處理回到我們今天的議程的一個部分各位從全序部的書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6124.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6147.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
就可以了解我們當年所講的到現在我想政府還是在回顧 顧主的一個責任全區不得制壓裡面至少三個部分第一個84年之後的一個改革是因為該調整 該撥補 該處理沒有處理這是誰的責任這是政府的一個責任第二個一二新制 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6149.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6159.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
一二新制會加劇整個財務的一個負擔一二新制的推動也是政府推動的第三個當你要撥補裡面的一個數據提到了2000多億請問那是誰的撥補那2000多億是節省節省就是本來應該是由受僱者要領取的所以節省預注 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6174.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6198.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這個也是當時全校總去爭取的如果全校總沒有把這個入法所有的撥補不會進來那請問這些撥補是誰的撥補是受僱者受僱者所拿出來的到目前為止沒有政府的責任請問政府的責任在哪裡所以我們認為政府的責任不應該被迴避這也是我們一直在主張的回到今天這一個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6204.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6233.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們不是卑微的我們樂見朝野跟政府去重視公教人員的退休制度有能力的政府應該是給予更好的一個待遇更好的一個退休的一個制度去讓穩定所有軍公教的一個這樣的一個生活所以如果這個提案停止下降所得替代率我們認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6234.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6249.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
對於整個穩定現場以及現在退休的公教人員他絕對有他的一個幫助絕對有他的一個效應但是全教總全教會也從過往的歷史裡面學到教訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6250.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6269.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所有的東西沒有足夠的配套措施只是一個法案的提出最後的成果我們又要去承擔這樣的一個後果所以我們在整體的一個過程當中我們更看重顧主責任在這個過程當中怎麼去做展現從資料裡面提到以公跟教大概整個撥補的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6281.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6298.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
按照原來的一個方式會有9478億的一個億數進來到目前為止不管是權序部或教育部的資料顯示這幾年公教整個撥補進來的金額已經高達3068億 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6305.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6326.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
如果各位瞭解整個我們役駐我們退撫基金的一個角角是受僱者也就是公教受僱者我們是繳35%65%是政府要繳那到目前3000多億都是由受僱者所繳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6327.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6355.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那其他的 原本應該是9千多億 扣掉3千多億 6千多億是不是剛好符合僱主責任的6千多億所以由僱主去把這樣子的一個金額去撥補我覺得是理所當然但是整個過程當中我們只看到法令並沒有去把這些細節把它寫進去如果沒有寫進去就會造成後面整個基金的一個財務危機 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6356.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6364.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
政府﹚或者現在各種專家學者以及權敘部跟﹚權敘部之間所設算的﹚就會成真 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6365.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6393.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
所以我們要避免這樣的一個方式讓它成真應該除了整個停止替代率下降之外應該也要同時把撥補政府撥補的責任要入法而且要寫清楚如果沒有寫清楚後面我想會整個加劇財務的一個負擔最後又是由所有的受僱者來承擔所以我想在這裡我們要提出第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6395.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6418.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
我們樂觀其審這樣的一個停止替代率的一個下降但是請政府包括委員這邊要提出精算而且相對明確的法律的撥補的一個條文逐年的要寫清楚否則又會造成後面的等等的一個財務的一個問題這是第一個第二個部分年改的過程當中改過頭的 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6426.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6443.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
不符合現在的應該要檢討然後全面的去修正我認為年資補償金這一塊是完全沒有道理因為年資補償金它的一個提撥是公務預算跟整個退補基金完全沒關係這個也是現在可以做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6444.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6473.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我覺得如果不管是國民黨委員民進黨委員或是民眾黨委員認為這一件事情是不公不義的我覺得這個也要同時進行因為整個年資補償金它完全是公務預算編列跟基金的財務完全沒有任何的關係那整個過程當中這個就是屬於被改過頭的我覺得這應該要回復這樣的一個正義第三個部分整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6476.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6500.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
目前一二新制所產生的缺口 這個也是全教會一直認為應該要入法寫清楚當時的一個草案裡面 現在的一個法條裡面 寫的要分年撥補但是政府卻可以用分年這個部分 這樣的一個名詞把它混淆 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6501.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6530.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
以目前來講 今年的預算好不容易編的但是他是用20年撥補 請問各位20年撥補 你把新的缺口撥補完就原來的一個數據 已經要破產了那是不是又要改一次所以 我們連這樣一個新制所產生的缺口各位要理解 整個年改的 整個基金的一個缺口除了新制所產生的缺口 還有原來的一個舊缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6531.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6560.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
如果新制的一個舊缺口還要拖拖拉拉拖20年等到20年撥補完是不是又要產生新的一個問題所以在整個撥補的過程當中我們認為這個也是要馬上要做處理的如果你連這樣一個把它用10年甚至更快5年就把它撥補完了這一件事情都沒有辦法處理那你更遑論後面要 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6561.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6561.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6578.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6595.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
八十四年開始的時候原本的一個基金當時的全教會還沒有全教總就提出很多的一個改革很多應該要挹注要去處理的一直沒有處理所以才有後面的一個這樣的一個改革產生我們不該重蹈覆轍所以這一次全教會非常明確的要求十年的撥補一定要立即的做一個處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6606.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6625.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這一次的預算會期裡面我們也提出具體的要求要求立法院在總預算的部分應該要加入主決議的文字也就是說我們要把113年行政院只撥補100億114年也只撥194億分20年撥補這些跟10年撥補缺額的部分應該在114年115年應該全部足額的去撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6635.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6651.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
以10年的一個清算去做一些處理最後再強調一次顧主責任政府不應該迴避顧主責任所有的公教人員都在看顧主責任到底什麼時候會實現以上 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們有請湖南縣理事長發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6670.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6673.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
主席 各位與會的先進 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6675.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6698.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
今天我在這邊我要特別講一下就是我在上個星期大概有看到有各方給予的高見那我針對上次我看到的我覺得必須要澄清要說明的部分特別在今天說明那我的標題是請政府停止利用挑撥職群世代鬥爭和國際數據編織管理退撫基金不當的遮羞布 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6707.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6725.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
退撫基金的政策有什麼問題呢為什麼退撫基金沒有辦法擺脫破產危機為什麼政府要概括承受退撫基金缺口是天經地義第三為什麼不能用勞保勞退與公教退撫相比 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6728.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6752.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那我在當時退休金那個退撫基金做改革的時候政府拿出了很多OECD國家的數據可是事實上呢他們有一些東西是不願意拿出來的就是為什麼國際間有一些退休基金他們改革是成功的而且他們只改革一次就成功那我在這邊說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6757.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6776.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
這個加拿大模式它不是秘密他們當時只要是走加拿大模式改革的國家他們都改革一次就成功事實上加拿大他們在改革之前當然他們也遇到了破產的危機因為他們都有犯了一個共同的錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6782.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6809.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
他們的破產的共同點就是由政府管理只要是由政府管理的退休基金幾乎都碰到破產的危機因為政府管理退休基金他們很難避免拿退休基金為政治服務同樣的僱主也一樣所以後來包括甚至連向美國他們也在退休金的管理做了一些修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6810.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6828.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
於是呢加拿大退休金改革模式他們就有一個共同的點叫做政府退出管理第二改為私營OECD國家政府很喜歡舉的OECD國家的案例他們的退休基金都是私營沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6829.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6850.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
政府經營政府經營的就是破產就是失敗那在這裡面還有原制度政府蓋瓜承受那我要舉例的就是加拿大跟智利加拿大他們當時在處理這個破產的議題的時候第一個他就是退出管理改為私營然後第二個因為他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6851.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6878.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
他們有兩個案例一個叫做加拿大退休計畫這個是社會保險一個是安大略教師退休計畫這個是職業退休金因為他們當時在改革的時候還是屬於可以挽救的階段所以當時政府就做兩件事第一個就是撥補壯大資金池然後第二個改善投資績效所以在投資績效跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6880.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6907.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
波普的兩大加持之下他們就擺脫了當時的破產危機那至於智利呢智利是跟我們國家目前的做法比較像就直接切斷他們在1980年就切斷了切斷了之後政府就概括承受所有的缺口那他們的目標就是縮小缺口於是他們當時就是有主張甚至鼓勵年資低於15年以下的只要他們願意轉新制都給他們優待讓他們轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6909.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6928.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這一點當時在我們要轉新制的時候也有提出來但是全序部不願意事實上是我們有夥伴是有算過的如果是說讓之前的公教人員他們轉的話缺口會縮小政府要撥補的金額會變少可是全序部不願意好 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6930.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6956.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
我們來看一下加拿大退休金他們改革的成果加拿大退休計劃他們比我們時間晚我們的退撫基金成立是1996年他們是1999年開始開始改結果呢他們到了2023年的時候他們的成長比預定的目標多了1658億加幣這代表他們的投資績效非常的好那我們再看 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6958.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6962.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
安大略教師退休計劃1990年成立 現在的資金池是滿水位的狀況 而且是溢出來 他們的資金池是107%所以他們會有營餘191億加幣 大約是4968億台幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6980.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6981.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
資金的來源有接近80%都是投資收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6989.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7006.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
我這邊就做了一個比較1990年安大略教授退休計劃他們現在的提成比率是107%加拿大退休計劃是1999年改他的近10年近收益率是10%2023年他預定的收益率超過預期的1658億加幣大概就是3兆6304億台幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7013.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7028.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那我要講一句如果我們的政府這麼重視國際案例的話怎麼會不知道加拿大模式是成功的模式呢為什麼在改的過程當中明明是優秀的模式都不選擇呢都在逃避呢所以我覺得該算的帳要算一下退撫基因自1996年成立 弊案不斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7038.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7066.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
能不能告訴我們退撫基金在中環貿系聖華科技到底虧了多少錢退撫基金敢不敢公佈過去所有的持股出清股票的獲利和虧損應該不敢吧我看我看過監理會監理會的會議記錄啊有監理委員提出啊說不行不行啊哎這個會對我們造成困擾啊後來還很壓縮啊這麼多的資料結果只有監理會在短短一個下午叫我們看所有的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7068.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7080.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
說會這樣困擾阿 為什麼會這樣困擾 如果真的都很專業的話 拿出來大家看阿不然的話就很保守 有很保守嗎 有很保守的話為什麼會買到中環 茂系 聖華科技呢 貼壁紙呢 為什麼為什麼要把這樣的黑鍋丟給公教人員 公教人員是無辜的 公教人員他從頭到尾就是配合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7090.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7107.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
因為政府一直在管理然後績效不彰亂七八糟弊案連連所以根據國際慣例你管理者本來就應該概括承受所有的缺口理所當然這沒有什麼好講的國際慣例皆是如此要講國際我們就來講國際 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7109.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7123.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
第三個為什麼不可以用勞保、勞退跟公教退撫相比因為他們是不同的東西勞保是社會保險勞退是職業退休金公教退撫是職業退休金好來我們看 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7126.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7148.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
職業退休金它主要的就是兩個對象一個就是僱主 一個就是受僱者社會保險就是政府跟計劃參與者他們本身就是不一樣的而且他們在退休金的支柱上一個是第一支柱 社會保險是第一支柱勞退跟公教退輔是第二支柱 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7155.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7155.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
退休金本身有一個性質叫做保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7177.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7205.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
老保我去查過他的最高級距是一個月一千一百元那個是他的自付額公教退輔因為目前我就以老師的狀態來看老師的話呢他是最高是五千零四十八元大部分有七成是六五零星級五千零四十八元換言之以教師來講教師跟老保相比他的每個月提撥的金額是老保的四點六倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7206.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7222.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那我想請問一下我聽到他們說一直在講說領很多那我們來看一下喔我今天特別去查這勞保局的資料勞保局說2023年勞工勞保年金平均月領1.8萬元如果說我們以保險來看我買一個單位是1100元那麼我5048元大概就4.6個單位1.8萬乘以4.6的話是8.28萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7235.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7241.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我想請問有領的很多嗎?繳了4.6倍有領的很多嗎?那我們再看退撫跟勞退它也是不一樣的為什麼?因為勞退本身它是因應它是可以帶著走的退撫的話只要我們現在看到有一些公務員他們10年他們就決定他們離開了結果呢他們就損失慘重 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7265.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7289.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
因為他們是沒辦法帶著走的好 那麼我的結論有三個第一個就是政府因為在經營的過程當中績效不彰 弊案連連而且要採取國際模式蓋瓜承受第二個勞保跟勞退制度本來就跟退府不同不能拿來相比第三 政府應該要負完全的支付責任謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7291.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7304.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
好 謝謝吳理事長因為我們從兩年到現在已經進行了90分鐘那我們先休息10分鐘那跟下一位圖研究員說聲不好意思我現在才宣告我們休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7313.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7316.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7327.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7328.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7359.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7361.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7379.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7379.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7436.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7441.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7448.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7450.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7471.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7477.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7912.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7937.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好,現在繼續開會,有請徐景亮研究員發言主席,各位先進,各位委員大家好我是經濟民主聯合智庫研究員土景亮就本次的議題的話,經濟民主聯合認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7938.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7959.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
本次的這個修法是年改的倒退路也沒有必要性那最開始還先想說的是對於上一代的付出和努力我們真的都非常感謝臺灣也確實在上一代人的付出之下建立起了現在我們一起生活的美好環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7961.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7974.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
但我們也都知道在上次年改的時候相關單位就已經提出研究提出精算報告指出說若繼續維持在舊有的制度底下基金累積餘額將在2031年開始出現虧損換句話說也就是破產 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7980.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7998.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
沒錯,基金破產並不等於政府會破產但這裡會出現的是有兩個問題第一個事情是這跟原來的基金制度的精神是互相違背的第二個事情是這將排擠政府在其他福利預算的相關支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8001.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8027.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
退撫基金制度在1995年後本來的立法精神就是共同提撥制也就是說這個制度原意本來就是要使退撫基金是自給自足而不是恩給制的那在這個政府的給付本來就是作為補充器的手段核心要解決的始終是要怎麼在維持既有基金永續的前提下來想辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8031.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8056.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
有些人說這不是世代正義的問題有些人說這沒有排擠到其他預算支出的問題但我想問的事情是那這些錢應該要從哪裡來要怎麼樣避免基金不會破產除了提高在職軍公教人員的費率或是提高國家預算挹注之外還有什麼其他的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8058.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8075.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
如果今天我們要將預算補貼在退休金上那政府在其他的財政能力勢必就會大幅受到限制對於租金補貼對於學貸補貼對於公共托育甚至是長照保險錢又要從哪裡來呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8077.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8093.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
在台灣已經進入到高齡化社會,領取退福給付的人數和年數增加的情況下,這真的不是問題嗎?我們真的還要蒙著眼睛覺得基金不會破產,國家財政不會惡化嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8096.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8117.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
通膨和物價上漲是每個人都會遇到的問題現行制度其實也有相關的因應措施來去處理來去面對了也就是本法第67條第一項的規定在過去2022年2024年間也分別都有提高了2%以及4% |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8120.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8140.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
其實台灣的經濟成長不是由公務員一肩扛起是每一個台灣人一起努力打拼出來的結果我想問的是如果真的是物價問題那解決的為什麼不是物價本身而是今天我們要修這個退休金的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8142.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8162.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
剛才前面有提到的,如果覺得是生病沒有錢可以醫的問題,那為什麼不是針對醫療保險問題來討論呢?如果政府預算拿去補貼退休金,拿去補貼公務人員退休金之後,在健保也有財政問題的前提下,這真的沒有造成其他預算排擠的問題嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8165.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8173.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
所以今天這場公聽會的背後其實最核心的問題就是我們到底是想要怎麼樣的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8175.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8195.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們覺得怎樣的分配才算是正義我們想把錢用在哪裡我們有沒有想要讓基金永續我們要怎麼樣建立起更公平更合理的退休制度避免世代間財政負擔不均的問題其實這才是最核心的問題也是這次公聽會最想要回應的答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8197.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8216.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
為了避免國家財政負擔加劇﹐世代不爭議的問題﹐台灣經濟民主聯合在此表示﹐我們並不支持年改倒退爐﹐希望立法院可以慎重思考謝謝大家好 謝謝接下來我們請林鴻陽教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8223.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8245.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
主席以及各位夥伴大家好那我這邊就是會就這一個今天的這一個公聽會的主要問題然後就是提出一些我的想法然後再來的話當然就是我會認為非常重要會是就是在年金改革上面蠻主要的這個前提想要講在前面是說其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8246.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8261.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
就我過去就是在年金制度研究上面就是大概有20年左右這個時間其實很少看到有國家他是以這個撥補作為這個主要改革的手段他可能會是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8262.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8263.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
我都沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8294.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8297.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
喔 這邊沒有辦法 OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8298.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8323.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
對,比較重要的是其實臺灣確實是屬於這個所謂Bismarck體系的這個制度啦那但是Bismarck體系他這個制度本身他當時的這個設計就如同我這邊第一點所提到的職業分立然後相同的這個職業身分者的這個團結並且用他的這個因為當時是男主外女主內的這種社會這種家庭的這個價值的思維所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8324.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8341.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
他比較高的所得替代率是來自於他必須要用他的這個這份所得去cover去涵蓋他的這個家中的所得依附者但是就現在的這一個其實連同德國也是一樣他在現代的這一個就是女性的勞動參與率提升的這段之後的這個發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8342.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8370.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
他其實他也面臨了這一個就是我要繼續維持一個比較高的這個所得替代率或是說隨著這個兩性性別之間的這種所得替代率的這個勞動參與率的提升之後也可以相應調整那我們看到其實包含像德國的這個公務人員他退休的這個制度他的所得替代率也是朝60%或甚至再繼續往下探的這樣子一個趨勢在改革啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8372.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8398.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以當時1880年代的這個時空背景跟現在不一樣那而且我會認為也蠻重要就是其實當時也沒有一個相對完整的社會安全體制包含說像現在台灣有的這個全民健康保險、職災保險等等這些的這個社會安全制度還有一些福利服務、給付等等的那其實當時都很欠缺啦所以當時的話會將這個所得提價率設比較高是有它的時代背景的 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8399.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8419.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
再來的話,台灣現在也相對的這個,剛剛其實有幾位先進都有提到,有談到這件事情,因為這個財務上面,國家財務上面會相互的這個排擠,這個會是必然的那現在接下來台灣其實真正蠻核心的這個困境在於說少子女化 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8420.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8436.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
平均餘命的延長人口結構的改變那這些其實都會需要用到我們的這個財政上面的預算支出等等的所以會需要去整體思考或是我們是否有可能去建構出一個去完整規劃一個涵蓋所有全體的這個勞動者受僱者的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8441.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8453.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
社會保險、年金保險的制度才會是一個蠻需要考量的一件事情特別是要納入所得重分配的機制到幾副計算裡面來 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8455.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8456.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8477.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8481.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
主流政策論述以社會投資的論述來看有一個非常重要的提醒資源分配考量應該著重在國家未來的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8499.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8525.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
主要落在這個高齡人口的這個部分當然高齡人口也有他的這個一些的社會參與的這個可能性經濟性的社會性都有所以說在領取其實領取退休金的人口群他仍然是活在這個社會之中他的一些的這個給付也需要隨著這個社會的這個氏族性來去思考來去思考所以給付水準他不應該跟社會的這個生活的習慣是脫節的 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8529.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8552.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
根據這次的這幾個問題那我這邊的話就是嘗試回應其實剛有在前提裡面有提到就是世界各國公務人員以及這個普遍的這個退休金的所謂替代率他其實都不斷的在調降當中剛有談到德國長效60也繼續往下邁進瑞典的話60以下就是目前的60左右會再繼續往下探 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8553.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8577.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
所以這個部分的話其實需要同時考量就是我們其實台灣現在有非常多的這個社會保險制度在包含接下來可能會通過的這個長照保險那其實一些的社會安全制度都慢慢完善了那其實就可以取代一部分我們在現今上面的這個需要那再來的話其實就會是以這個社會制足性為原則考量的去設計的這個社會保險制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8581.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8593.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
在幾付計算或是幾付設計上面一個很重要的前提就是說我們到底對於這個錢到底這個金額幾付金額到底是需要還是想要 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8594.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8619.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
其實剛剛那個前輩有談到就是說當然就是對於這個某個職業人口群他必然也會有這個薪資相對少的這個人口群但是一直以來台灣的這個年金保險制度一直欠缺的就會是所得從分配的機制計算機制一直以來都欠缺啊所以說對於這個這個薪資較少的這個人口群我們是很難或是說去給予一個氏族的這個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8620.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8644.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以這個是會比較重要的這個部分那我再來的話其實幾副那個計算的這個一些增減然後溯及既往這件事情其實在各國之間都會有那也會有它的處理方式像瑞典的話就會用它的書生年來做調整或是說有些國家會用它的制度裡面它的這個投保的它的這個年資的多少來做一些的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8645.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8660.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
這些的話其實都有這樣的一個做法那再來的話有提到就是說要以薪資或是物價調整幅度作為給付調整依據我會認為這個當然是有必要的只是說就各國的這個經驗來講的話有的是單純用薪資用這個勞動者薪資來調整幅度或是說單純用CPI來調整但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8669.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8692.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
用CPI單純調整的話這一個這個部分在各國經驗裡面認為這是比較昂貴的所以比較多的會是兩者之間就一定比例的這個調整方式其實也蠻常看到這個各國就是依據這樣的一個比例然後去調整是每年調整每年調整但是當然在這一類的國家裡面的話他的給付如果有必須要下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8693.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8700.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
就是往下調的時候他也必須要相應扣減這個部分的話就請就大概會是這樣子的一個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8702.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8725.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
在職業別之間轉換的話可否累計投保年資這當然是國際之間的共識是應該可以累積上去但是也請不要忘記就是說在這個請領的這個年齡的這個設定以及一些足額減額增額部分年金的這個設計也應該要同時的去考量讓我們的這個年金體制以及他給付的這個機制是能夠更完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8729.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8752.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
再來的話針對就是84年以前啊1995年以前的退休者他是否應該要相應調整他的這個給付水準我會認為是有必要的啦因為其實在84年之前是屬於N給制其實在看這個問題的時候讓我想到其實以前就是當然企業有蠻多企業是做這個N給制的這個給付方式啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8752.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8780.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
那特別像美國的一些的底特律那些汽車大廠他也是但是我們可以看到過往在在這個過去三四十年或甚至更久之前的經驗看到這些以N幾制的這個大廠他因為在他退休給付而拖垮他的這個財政的這個的這個狀況是很多的也因此我們看到美國的這個case在1970年代就紛紛成立了兩個比較主要的企業年金用ERISA法案或是401k的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8781.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8782.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
1983年金改革﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8794.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8817.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
我會認為說,如果說在企業在N幾制的這種給付制度上面其實都有他的成本考量那如果說今天是政府的這個受僱者就沒有成本的考量這個應該會是一個蠻危險的這個財政幻覺啦特別是剛剛有談到一些財務上面的這個排擠的可能性啦那當然也要考量這個氏族的這個生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8818.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8841.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
接著就是單獨提高特定的這個職業身分別的年金給付制度是否有這個合適啦我認為當然就是就代間或代內的這個公平性的考量的話當然都不適合啦特別是當如果說是維持的話其實或是不調降基本上對於這一個對於這一個就是他的提撥率或是要用稅收 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8842.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8843.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
謝謝林教授,接下來請游譽然理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8862.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8863.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
中華民國警察及眷屬關懷協會理事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8876.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8901.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我們今天的公聽會有幾個提綱剛剛各位先進分別都已經針對各自的領域針對不同的提綱有不同的看法我就從我自己所屬的族群以及我比較熟悉的領域來談這些提綱可能也會比較偏重在警消部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8902.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8902.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
公務人員退休資遣撫卹法 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8920.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8948.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
今天明改再不改就要動搖國本我們所提的在這次所看到的這些修法的提案其實只不過是一個非常務實的務實的停損為什麼因為前面的先進也提到了因為國考報名人數現在是血崩式的銳減我們沒有辦法吸收到優秀人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8949.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8965.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
很多公務人員過去他可能五十幾歲會考慮要退休的現在都紛紛延退因為退休之後無以去負擔因應日益增長的這種生活開銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8967.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8967.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8985.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9000.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
這不是老師要不要退的問題這攸關我們國家的未來你沒有辦法給年輕的孩子年輕的朋友們或者是想要投入教育領域的這些這些青年學子們他們有一個好的機會來加入這個行列那同理可證我們其實警校的延退不管是我們現在看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9013.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9035.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
平均的年齡已經非常非常的高了而且我們的警察工作在台灣的警察所負擔的工作是跟世界其他國家的不一樣我們是高勞力密集勞力的那他們的體能老化已經難以面對危險繁重的治安環境這不是動搖國本什麼叫動搖國本 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9041.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9066.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
我們就先從這個立法院不久前在就在上個月他預算中心他就提出了一個報告就說警大的招生啊降了很多然後退學的人數比例也高很多五年最高其實這個問題呢不是不是今年才發生的去年的警大的錄取積分錄取積分 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9068.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9094.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
很低 因為它有低到40低到38 低到37當然 大家都知道 都認為說景大的學生數字都很高這個分數 說真的我在景大教書的時候沒有看過這麼低的沒有看過這麼低的 為什麼因為景大是這些級分我們自從不再自己辦招生考試之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9095.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9111.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
看的是我們學測的這個積分本來是看四科 四科就是甲組也看四科 乙組也看四科我在衛視系我所教的學生有很多 有很多都是55積分 56積分 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9113.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9118.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我們甚至於還有滿級分的但是要不要看看現在這個慘狀呢剛剛給各位看了 有37 有38的那這個問題其實也不是今年才發生因為在我們開始在討論年改的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9132.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9146.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
我曾經在那個時候我還叫做葉玉蘭我在106年的時候就看到了有一個我們居然這個甲組的男生最低級分41級分我說這個史上最慘的滑落我當時就直指了 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9150.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9162.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
因為你的年金改革那時候討論很多你把警察把它變成普通化公務員化那麼警校的工作跟勤務的時間跟其他的公務員來講是不一樣的所以當他們在年輕的時候當他有選擇權的時候他當然不會擔任這種沒有保障的警察工作了拿我自己當成例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9175.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9176.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9197.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9200.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
因為這個年改我們警察留不住人才各位看到在左邊這個跟蔡總統站在一起的陳澤昌他是世界上他覺得不可能啊為什麼那個易營的盜領案是國際的詐騙集團來台灣盜領的我們抓得到他抓到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9220.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9244.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
右邊的這個叫周冠輝是我自己帶的導生我的學生他也是他是58期照理講他還有十幾年才會借齡退休他也先走了先走一步為什麼多留無益嘛多留無益所以在這個地方各位所看到的左邊的這張照片裡面有很多是我在 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9244.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9271.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
民國78年、79年代的警大是58期的資訊系的第一屆的學生他們現在有很多都在金融業裡面當資安長這是當他們還可以有第二寸的時候每一個人來問我我都說趕快走因為多留無益那你們還會說這個是他們是人才所以可以走 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9272.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9272.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
中間的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9299.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9321.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
黃師傅身體多好啊是維安特勤的戰神總教官右邊的這個蔣正台一樣在海巡裡面也是陳長峰破萬里浪的到處去抓要犯的這些健康的不得了的勇士們他們都等不到退休的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9322.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9333.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
再看看現在台南市明天要申請退休921人他們只會4000多個人的單位啊更不要談這個彰化每一年大概都有兩成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9336.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9353.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
現在到底警察能活多久沒有人能講但是警政署在110年我還在立法院的時候給我的一個數字說這一次亡故的是48.29歲退休死亡的是77.84歲他覺得好像也沒有差太多還有活到77.84但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9357.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9375.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
今年的今年6月21號自由時報王翔正的投書裡面特別提出來了他去盤點他說2010年到2021年的警察在職跟退休同仁平均死亡年齡其實不到72歲 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9377.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9393.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
是短了8年我們其實全序部也好警政署也好對於到底警察活多久我們一直要不到資料那大家談到CPICPI的問題我在立法院裡面提過很多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9395.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9396.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
前年我問了蘇貞昌之後我特別提了你CPI你要用可以可是你要用得對很抱歉我們的CPI根本無效無效各位可以參考我的資料裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9412.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9440.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
當時我就希望他們是不是能夠針對我們這些退休族群的消費來編一個高齡者的CPI蘇院長沉默了之後回過來了告訴我說因為92年之後92年起我們就不再公佈了政府不作為這種叫做倒退路各位年輕的朋友我要告訴你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9441.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9461.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
因為全世界你要知道老齡化是這個問題都必須要去用CPI再去重組一下反映老人社會了這個是我的資料裡面拿的這個是日本的日本的CPI在老人的這部分他們不會再去買車買房子了可是買車買房子在我們CPI裡面佔多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9466.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9479.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
所以我的結論就是你如果要隨CPI麻煩就用正確的CPI至於軍人麻煩要依法依法說聯資要合併計算就請你們一起合併計算我最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9485.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9504.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
對不起我可能要超過一分鐘因為有一個題目這裡面就講到說我們單獨提高某一類別的所得替來率但指的就是警銷很抱歉因為我雖然是警大畢業的我不是拿警察待遇我是拿教師退休金的我不是自匪我要幫他們講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9507.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9528.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
過去在年改剛剛開始的時候軍人的所得替代率是單獨提高了因為國家有難的時候需要軍人我絕對贊成大家不會覺得這個叫做什麼特殊啊或怎麼樣一樣的今天警察的這種辛苦程度全部 全世界人都在看 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9529.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9556.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
我們如果再看看年輕人普遍低心話有沒有人會去講說為什麼台積電這麼高AI產業這麼高不好意思那不是違反公平正義他們的高薪是全神貫注經過深熬跟苦磨所換來的錦霄亦復如是我們天天不知這個家庭跟工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9557.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9558.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9583.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9586.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
好 謝謝有理事長 謝謝有請何雲峰理事長發言請檢報筆抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9614.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9640.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
主席、各位長官、先進們午安先跟各位報告我是2015年也就是民國104年高考三級及格的公務人員雖然我已經不是現職公務人員也就是我辭職了但是我跟許多各位的先進一樣我們共用退伏基金因為我依然保留我的退伏年資我在我開始這一段說明之前我今天真的很想為台灣默哀一分鐘因為我不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9642.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9662.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
原來我們曾經為國家服務過的公職人員你這麼恨這個國家你這麼恨這個政府葉老師剛剛笑出來我知道因為我了解你對學生的苦難你的不捨但我也要跟各位說一下我要回應一下高理事長剛剛說的話你一開始說國家霸凌我們公務人員很遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9663.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9692.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
最近最紅的勞發署的那一位分署長是檢證11指等他是高考及格的檢證公務人員他是高階資深的公務人員有一些被迫而離開的是我這一代年輕的公務人員有些前輩們說我們要製造世代對立很遺憾世代對立沒那麼輕易的被政黨挑撥政府沒有那麼輕易的可以製造世代對立 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9693.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9716.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那是因為到底各位先進們你們留下什麼給我們你們今天要的是什麼我其實感到非常難過今天在座有沒有發現發言者幾乎都是資深前輩沒有年輕的公務同仁道長有幾個原因第一個人家在上班啦第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9717.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9745.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
我們更在意的是我們職業的尊嚴以及我們現在適當的工作分配跟合理的待遇對待今天很多前輩們說退休制度不好所以人才比政府那我試問一下所以台灣各行各業沒人才了嗎是這樣嗎這整個台灣現在的繁榮或者是我們在職棒上或其他種種的成就他們不是人才嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9746.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9773.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
所以找到適任性的人才進入政府才是關鍵那試問如果今天我們進入政府一開始的目的只是為了拿退休金有哪一種人才是一開始為了拿退休金進入那個職業的至少我不是我本來真的是我不想要這樣開頭講話的可是我在前面聽了這麼多我很遺憾 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9776.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9802.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
我也為我現在現職的同仁不捨因為我們的前輩是這樣講話我是尊敬各位的可是我很遺憾我能理解各位先進們的痛苦我父親我的家人很多都是退休的軍公教同仁當然軍公教應該分流管理這也是事實前面的前輩也講過 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9804.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9828.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我理解的事情是十年前開始開啟相關的改革作業他讓你們很深的失落因為你們會憤慨憤慨好像有人拿走了屬於你們的東西而且拿的還是錢這是在談判上非常困難的事情就是從對方的口袋裡拿走他既有的錢我知道這很困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9830.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9858.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我也了解各位為什麼那麼憤慨像前面葉老師所說的對不起游老師因為工作辛苦或者是長期在一個上命下從沒有溝通被迫服從被壓迫的職場環境裡面工作你們過去三四十年來是這樣來的是國民黨的威權跟白色恐怖時代遺留下來的遺緒來的我懂這個遺緒甚至現在還有我完全了解但就為了那筆退休金所以你們吞了 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9860.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9888.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
不是嗎所以被拿走了你們好憤慨不是嗎那是一把傷人的匕首傷害了各位的至尊因為各位的至尊必須要年金用退休金來換我了解這件事情不好意思本來要講的沒辦法講只能放給各位看年金改革的方賴處刑嚴格來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9891.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9919.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
馬總統任內馬前總統任內就已經開始規劃前考試院院長關忠就曾經提過了尤其是98年的時候文官制度新格規劃方案當時就已經開始討論要進行年改所以要說退府經費破產是國民黨執政時候馬前總統時候在喊的事情啊當然蔡前總統執政的時候跟著走為何政策有他的延續性現在已經超過10年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9922.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9936.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
我們繼續憤慨各位憤慨遲遲難以理解我完全懂我無法跟我父親在我們家的飯桌上談這件事情因為他也很憤慨我無法跟我的親屬談這件事情因為他也很憤慨我懂可是各位你可能也跟我爸媽一樣做阿公阿嬤請問一下阿公阿嬤這條錢是人家國家跟我們做的錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9950.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9977.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
你們拿走了我們就沒辦法拿了以來稀前理事長我知道你不認同但這是事實當初的設計要長這樣理想的大水庫這是退休人員的基金可以在大水庫運作以後回到他身上可是現實是什麼各位你們繳的錢對不起你們領的錢有一部分是我的這是事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9979.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10007.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
這也是無可迴避的事實別忘了待遇提升的時候退府的提撥會增加所以本來退府基金就會增加前面有一些先進席的內容我無法一一再做說明我不是要來護航的我只是覺得我很遺憾我提到這些內容所以我沒有照稿來講各位如果要再重來一遍以目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10009.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10035.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
國民黨民眾黨有的立委優勢絕對不是問題可是各位要再重來一遍那我們要再精算一遍加班的是我們是我們限職的同仁而不是退休的各位制度要改要再研究是限職的我們而不是退休的各位如果你們決定這麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10038.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10060.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
在黨﹐多數黨也決定這麼做我們在職的人只能接受因為我們活在民主的台灣但如果可以各位你們可以繼續分開可是我們真不希望把好不容易精算好的資料再打掉重新處理一遍加的班夠了不用再多加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10062.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10080.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
本會的建議是這樣子其實行政院人事行政總署早在109年的出國報告當時就針對瑞典政府的公務人員的薪資退休資助跟有效有善職場做出考察其中就有提過平衡基金的設計我們同意如果真的覺得過不下去生活過不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10082.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10097.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
很困難很憤慨那好我們來談撥補但不要在已經精算好的制度上去處理可不可以討論一個新的平衡基金可不可以討論一個跨世代的平衡基金可不可以討論一個縫合我們的傷痕的平衡基金從考國家考試的一開始就決定你是講要拿退休金那是一場災難 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10115.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10141.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
因為我現在同時也是補教業者我都是這樣跟我的學生講的他們也是人才他們不會不是這個台灣的人才羅老師提出報酬可以高一點 可以高報酬必然伴隨高風險我現在的退休金我自己存各位可以去看一下一般民間在使用的005 006 208市值型的ETF到底是怎麼跑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10144.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10166.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
還有當今天退休資產要進行分散配置的時候報酬率本來就不能衝高有在做投資的人多少會理解最後我還是要跟執政黨政府建議今天為什麼我們前面一面倒資深的前輩們拼命要拿錢對不起他們會超時我也超時一點點 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10170.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10198.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我們的公務人員現在要追求的是工作價值跟尊嚴執政黨現在最需要做的事情打造友善的職場招募有致於公共服務的人才給予合理的報酬待遇這也是考試院跟人事行政總組應該關注的方向我們很遺憾在過去防疫那幾年我們太過強化了內部的上命下從我們欠缺了跨層級跨世代的互相溝通機制而現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10200.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10225.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
主管、機關們我們應該設法再度建立起溝通的條領我們應該跟各基層團體以及年輕世代的公務人員多做溝通跟討論有效解決各種第一線的管理問題最後我還是要跟各位先進中我們都是為台灣服務的我們還要趕快進步制度要進步絕對不走回頭路謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10229.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10251.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
好 謝謝何理事長 接下來有請劉宥學劉教授請我沒有罵你我沒有罵你我沒有罵你我沒有罵你是您剛剛先 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10257.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10265.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
請我們呃劉教授發言呃主席呃各位長官還有與會的先進呃大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10270.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10273.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
前面的先進也有提到的確我們在1995年到 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10289.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10303.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
2023年之前的這一套這個退伏制度是屬於一個互助的精神那互助精神當然就是這個工作世代必須要繳費來這個支付這個退休金的部分那麼我比較好奇的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10306.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10321.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我比較好奇的是如果我們目前因為我在這個全區部所提供的報告的第2頁裡面其實有看到他說如果這個我們停止改革的話用慶的年度會提早發生然後這個我們的收支比例會出現下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10322.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10347.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
那我的好奇是那如果我們停止改革以及沒有辦法把這個改革下來所節省下來的錢重新挹注到基金以後到底對財務會有多大的影響我所謂對財務有多大的影響是說如果按照我們現行法令的規定我們有沒有需要調整限職公教人員的費率以及這個天花板的部分需不需要一併的修法或者是說要讓這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10348.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10361.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
廢慮的調整是要加快腳步嗎?還是未來會有什麼樣的變化?因為我們在這報告裡面其實沒有辦法看到一個完整的評估是不是這個全序部這邊有沒有辦法針對廢慮的部分的影響? |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10364.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10364.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10389.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10416.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
藍白立委的提案其實也是在討論物價那我們其實就應該就這個物價這個所謂的起伏後的調整機制來進行討論那看其實前面前面幾位先進有提到那我們現在的這個按照CPI的這個調整機制合不合適到底是要按照核心物價呢還是按照平均的CPI這個其實是可以討論的以及我們這個調整的腳步是不是太慢還是難以實現 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10418.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10443.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
就算2022年以來已經調了6%是不是不夠我覺得這一併如果這一次要修法是不是應該要一併來把它納入來討論可我要提醒大家的是當時候設計這個所謂給付後的制度調整用這個正負5%的這樣的一個規定其實是比照國民年金跟勞保年金的所以如果今天要修法的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10444.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10463.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我還是認為必須要考量這個橫平性畢竟這個物價的波動是對所有人都造成影響的如果今天又只單方面改革某一個特定的族群那其實對另外一個族群來說就是一種不公平的待遇這是我要在制度上的橫平性我覺得應該要考量的 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10464.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10475.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
那第三點呢其實年輕改革觀察了這麼久我本來以為應該會塵埃落定只是沒有想到我們今天又要重新回過頭來討論這件事情那 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10479.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10506.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
年金改革當然是政治問題可是過去我對這兩個主要的政黨在年金改革上面的表現我必須做出一個很負責任的評價我覺得這種三心二意的做法其實嚴重的傷害到我們對公共政策討論的以及做改革的一個理性的道路為什麼這麼說譬如說我實在很疑惑中國國民黨在年金改革上面的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10508.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10518.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
因為這波年輕改革起點其實是2012年也就是馬英九執政的時代所發動的後來因為許多的政治上的反彈而停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10520.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10540.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
可是到2016年馬總統要交接給蔡英文總統的時候還耳提面命告訴蔡總統說應該要進行年金改革而當時候的中國國民黨的主席吳敦義也認為這是一個時間炸彈會導致破產所以也支持要改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10543.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10559.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
國民黨、立法院、黨團,從原本開放由個別委員提案,到後來只允許臨時動議,到後來的焦土抗爭,以及到現在為止他們提出來的是要停止改革這件事情,態度上的反覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10561.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10567.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
國民黨上臺以後又說要改革呢?這其實對於被改革者來說都是非常不利的影響另外一方面我也要提出執政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10582.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10597.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
民主進步黨在2012年的時候其實對年金改革特別是勞保的部分其實有提出對岸2016年蔡總統上台以後也認為勞保要進行改革可是一直沒有動作我們本來以為新政府上台以後針對勞保會有改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10598.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10619.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
可殊不知最後勞動部的立場卻告訴我們撥補就是一種改革我覺得這一句話其實帶來非常不利的影響也就是說如果今天這個參與者這個勞工保險所謂的被保險人有1000萬人都可以用這個所謂的撥補來進行改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10621.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10634.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
那當然是想對軍公教的族群來說為什麼博普不能是一個改革的途徑一定是比照辦理的所以這兩個黨對於這個在年金改革上面的態度我認為對於未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10636.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10637.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10660.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10671.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
好 謝謝劉教授那麼我們今天邀請的最後一位主席的學者專家代表是臺灣勞工陣線聯盟孫友蓮秘書長剛從新竹趕火車趕到現場您要喘口氣嗎可以直接上場來 那請孫秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10687.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10702.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
主席還有各位與會的夥伴 抱歉剛剛在新竹開會然後趕高鐵上來所以遲到了不過針對今天的這樣的一個議題感覺起來當時的年改會的同學會年改會同學會的氣氛又來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10707.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10733.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
不過我倒覺得說如果說我們在討論相關年金改革的議題的時候事實上要把它放在我們整體年改的脈絡來看譬如說我們定期性的週期性的都會有年改的這個議題包括我剛進來就聽到劉教授所提到的老保年金改革的這個部分也是當時年改會的重要的議程 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10733.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10758.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
那事實上如果大家Google一下我對老網年輕改革的態度跟意見的話始終如一我到目前為止我還是認為非改不可當然也無法理解說郭補當然是解決問題的方法之一我說之一他不是全部全部的改革的包括各個年輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10759.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10759.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10778.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10803.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這些內容包括事實上2013年馬英九前總統在討論年改的時候其實提出三個處方我都開玩笑講說我對馬總統的很多的說法很少有同意的不過我對當時他提出的這個問題我是覺得高度的同意不外乎財富不足 世代不均跟行業不平的這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10804.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10809.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
財務不足問題不只是整體國家資源分配的問題還包括制度內的資源重分配的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10822.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10823.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10839.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10849.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
回到今天所討論的主要議題的部分顯然2013年馬前總統所提出的問題到了2016、2017年年金改革法案的通過其實它就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10860.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10860.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10878.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10878.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10898.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10898.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10917.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10942.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
在高鐵上面我在查那個信息我覺得包括說有一些政治意見的這樣一個表達 譬如說這個是為了保障軍工叫的基本 退休以後的基本生活那我覺得回過頭來 我覺得政府有義務去討論什麼叫基本生活跟基本的這樣的一個保障這個如果我剛剛滑手機沒有滑錯的話應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10944.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10971.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
國民黨主席朱立倫先生所說的說年改或者說今天的討論主要要圍繞在軍公教的基本退休以後的基本生活那的確我真的認為政府對於所謂的基本生活應該要有一些很明確的很明確的一些政策的一些看法那當然他不會只適用於軍公教他一定是適用於所有的台灣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10972.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10972.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10992.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11019.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
以目前來看的話這樣的一個給付的這樣的水準是不是符合我剛剛講的或者剛剛的政治意見所說的基本生活需求那還是說這個基本生活需求感覺起來好像變成是因人而異那顯然我覺得就有點失去了今天可能討論這個議題的一個重點那我會把重點放在說一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11020.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11020.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11042.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11064.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
說實在的我覺得如果要資源要做有效的分配跟配置的話也許也應該把更多的資源分配在現役的公務人員的身上我覺得其實這樣子的話才會對未來整體的這樣的一個公務機關的穩定運作以及說留住我們的人才因為剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11065.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11067.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11093.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11122 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
他的這個未來的所謂的退休制度的這樣的一個退休生活制度的這樣的一個改善我覺得那部分都是可以再努力的那當然最後就是說若回到今天的這樣議題的話我覺得倒回去去修法去回復到當時的情形的話其實是相當違背了過去這十幾二十年來 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11123.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11148.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
社會經過多番的討論當然也有衝突那個衝突我相信過去大家在年改的過程裡面也經歷過了也看到了也知道了那但是最終做了一個決定做了一個選擇那如何回到讓整個的制度的公平性的問題更加彰顯出來我覺得這部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11148.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11150.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
政府整理資源分配 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11176.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11198.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
所謂的對退休的這樣的一個資源的挹注我覺得這部分是我們要認真去面對的那包括勞保也是一樣包括勞保也是一樣如果我們沒有去好好面對這個制度本身內部的一些問題的話包括它世代的不平的世代的這樣的一個問題的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11199.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11200.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
社會在乎退休人員的基本生活需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11220.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11248.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
我們用數字去講話的意思是包括現在在情理的人他的這樣的一個數額他的數字是不是符合了一般社會所了解的這樣的一個水準如果是的話那我相信我們在討論今天的議題的時候就有可以做很多的理性的這樣的一個參考那我覺得這部分就提供給這個立法院來做參考以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11251.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11280.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
好 謝謝我們所有的學者、專家及登記發言的委員均已發言完畢那接下來我們進行政府機關代表的發言那目前請就所送書面資料以外的部分可以做口頭補充那我現在會逐一詢問列席的各機關是否有再做補充說明的必要那如果有需要的話呢時間以5分鐘為度那目前提書面報告的機關有權序部行政院人事行政總署內政部那請問權序部部長是不是要做補充好請 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11285.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11289.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
謝謝主席還有謝謝今天所有與會的所有的這個參加者那聆聽大家的一些意見我想每一個人都有很好的一個見解那也給我們部裡面在想這個問題當然都有一些幫忙那我想我就請就 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11314.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11314.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11343.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11369.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
因為我這樣一個經驗那我退休的時候應該會是屬於高階就退休金高的一層的人那我就在想想說當我來部門員服務當然還有過去的研究就發現說為什麼能支撐我這麼高的東西那支撐我這麼高的東西到底來源是什麼那這樣從整個社會資源的分配來講這樣是不是最好的一個模式 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11370.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11374.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
我想這個也就涉及臺灣的退休制度改革的一個緣起 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11375.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11402.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我先講我們部裡面的結論等一下我會開始講84年以後的制度我自己還是建議這個制度從84年開始一直走我們年改當然已經走了幾年因為年改為了要讓這個制度更合理所以現在已經走了5年到6年我是建議這個列車應該繼續走下去但是對於退休者本身 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11404.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11428.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
例如說他的退休生活要怎麼樣去調整例如說要鎖定是CPI 要怎麼樣的CPI或者應該是幾%或者是不是兩年三年四年五年去做調整我覺得那個是可以去討論的但是這個列車就不要停止下來那我就大概記錄到我的主意我的主意之前我還是先講一個因為我自己很多人也知道對不起我應該按的是下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11432.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11457.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
我先講一個事情 很多人都說因為把什麼事情都用年改來解釋所有的理由那解釋說年改以後報考人數減少了 類似這個問題那大家如果去看台灣所有高考三級最近從2000年以後的報考人數其實我們報考人數是一個景氣循環啦2004年的時候最高啦 後來一路下降谷底啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11458.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11481.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
然後又往上到2012年 變成往下降 臨改是後面發生的啦所以我只是在講是說 這個其實是不需要太把臨改這個事情歸了很多的一個原因那當然 臨改以後會不會造成新進公務同盟變少了呢其實你只要看最近這幾年呢 那個需求名額都是在增加的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11482.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11505.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
所以需求名額都在增加的意思就是說這個不必然說因為年改就會造成政府沒有新的人進來我只是在講先談這個部分那我想一開始談這個剛剛很多人在提到推年改這個事情其實真的是橫跨藍綠執政我想一開始95年跟100年就已經先做優惠存款了那102年事實上就已經是 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11507.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11533.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
馬前總統的時候就提修案修這個法案那到這邊沒有通過那想想看105年大部分你如果仔細看這兩個方案的參數那個變數幾乎沒有什麼太大改變只是那個參數內容有點改變意思說這是一個很延續性的功能為什麼延續性因為那時候看到兩個主要問題啦最重要還是基金會破產第二個事情呢是今天大家都沒有談的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11535.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11558.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
退休的所得會比債值的所得有些甚至超過有些到八九成以上我想這個絕對不是一個我們應該有的方向所以其實是這兩個方向在資深這樣走資深走其實這張圖就告訴各位這個也大部分是在馬總統時代就開始做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11559.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11583.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
我們的所有的退休所得裡面最大一部分呢當時最大一部分來自呢 優存啦然後接下來才是屬於叫退休金啦 月退休金啦那我只是在講歷史是這樣一個過程第二頁我大概用三四頁下一頁 幫我按一下下一頁好不好那這是我們的看法啦當然你可以主張說政府當初怎麼不敢把它調42% |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11585.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11603.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
這等於是歷次的精算報告 最適提撥率 跟實際的匯率差口是那麼大 所以基金就永遠是有缺口這永遠有缺口 你再怎麼樣提高基金支銷的投資報酬 我很持平的講 這幾乎是很難的一件工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11605.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11617.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
當然你可以主張當初在改的時候為什麼不要就把基金完全 剛剛也有委員提到採取那個完全私隱的模式我那是社會共識的問題我不敢保證但是我是在跟各位講這就是一個這樣一個複雜的一個過程所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11622.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11640.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
年改以後為什麼說這一條還是要繼續走因為它確實對財務面有很大的效益那財務面很大簡單講就是說它增加一個新的東西只要年改節省的錢通通全數預注回這個基金不是政府拿去做任何的公共支出那這個全數預注所謂3068億事實上某種角度這政府已經撥補了 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11646.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11663.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
那這裡面新制完以後是不是政府應該要先解決這新制因為法律有這樣規定嘛那這個部分我們會努力再跟行政院因為現在已經變20年嘛那每年要用10年來編我想我們還是要繼續爭取這個事情可是回過頭來就是說如果這一個路不走 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11664.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11689.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
後面就沒有撥補的問題 那個撥補數一定會減少嘛那因為有這個很龐大的撥補 所以我們公務人員呢 那個年度的失衡呢 從本來很失衡現在轉平衡基金累積更多錢 那我們呢 也讓那個未提存的這個 現在還是2.9兆可是因為透過我們努力 至少把它缺口呢降到它1.8兆那這樣一個基本的概念下 請下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11691.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11717.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
為什麼我建議不採集很簡單的道理就是真的會提早用慶那提早用慶能怎麼辦那你就剩下找一個方案來囉那我先往下請下一張給各位看一個數字剛剛有提到就是說那到底我們現在如果要回到基本生活那我們部裡面其實用了一個資料庫現在今年所有退休人員七成以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11719.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11745.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
平均數大概是5萬塊以上甚至5.1萬以上那當然如果你的退休費用800點的人那當然更高囉那這個數字以後會不會下降大家預期未來這幾年會再有這個調降下來可是大家不要忘了只要未來這個調降下來所以我還是回過頭來如果他跟著CPI做一個調整基本上這個數字應該是大概會維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11747.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11749.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
公聽會：立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11771.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11784.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那這個為什麼會這樣子因為我們到目前為止所有月退休所得減少的公務人員部分大概81%通通是優存那教育人員大概91%全部是優存 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11786.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11813.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
意思就是說到目前執行為止都減少了都是優存所得啦真正根據法例的月退休金佔的比例真的沒有那麼高啦那我要講說往後就一定會月退休金減的比例越來越高但是不要忘了因為為什麼一定要減因為就是當初根據那個費率沒有足爾提撥嘛所以缺口大所以現在是大家一起來負擔這個責任所以我非常贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11814.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11839.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們從N幾字走成確定提撥就是自己自主自己自主就是我們無論如何一定要想辦法大家不管是已經退休的人或者是現在在者一起來努力我覺得這才是一個讓這個基金繼續持續永續的一個好的方法我想我們就到最後一張我時間有限麻煩放到最後一張所以是這樣子如果真的調降他會怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11840.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11868.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
它第一個當然基金本來我們剛剛50年的2800億就一定沒有辦法挹注但是基金的這個支出一定會持續增加它效果就是一定年度收支平衡在管人失衡基金可以投資的越少第二個它一定會更造成退休者的平均月退休金跟限職工作者月薪差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11869.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11869.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11881.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11910.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
奉獻過然後沒有工作的人然後他拿的月退休金會跟我們限職的月薪沒有差到一定的差這不是很適合啦那當然跟民間的薪資比較那是屬於另外一個議題那回過頭來5.1萬是不是基本生活需要還是回過頭來這個退休金的設計從來沒有應該講說退休金在照顧個人基本生活需求沒有在照顧你的你還要去幫助你的小孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11912.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11938.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
幫助他付房租那如果是醫療當然是屬於國家另外的政策應該去處理所以我覺得這個事情應該大家在討論這個事情回過頭來一個很精準的講退休金應該是在讓個人的基本生活這我非常非常贊成那基本生活有人會過得非常尊榮有些可能是啊那就可以了那我們那條線要劃在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11939.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11963.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
那這個就是社會上應該去討論的一個事情那我想最後一個 如果基金用慶 剩下我們能怎麼辦今天大家討論了不外乎三條路嘛投資績效不斷增加嘛阿不然就是提高費率嘛那不然就是政府撥補嘛那今天大家都在談政府撥補 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11964.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11978.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
但是我剛剛講到3068億事實上那個就是一個把本來政府的公務預算的支出通通回過來這裡如果你認為這樣的話你就跟社會講說優存是應該的 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11982.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12011.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
喔 對不起 我們也很熟我就直接這樣講所以我就回到這個問題上我的意思是在講說這個問題大家把它拿出來好好去想想這個事情我來自學界我也不是一個典型的從某種角度我跟大家一樣我是公務人員我受到這個連感的影響可能跟大家是一樣大的因為我有那個部分那我正在講說這樣一個機制最後如果都是限職人員跟納稅人負擔最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12012.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12034.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
而不是大家一起來分攤我覺得這個真的是會違反當初那個法律上講的就是說政府當然應該負擔這個支付保證責任的原意啦他的原意其實應該是大家先自給自足努力做好各自幹那真的不足呢當然政府就應該來處理這樣一個事情那所以我想我還是簡單的做這樣一個說明謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12038.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12050.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
好 謝謝宣誓部市部長的補充那麼請教一下我們人事行政總書或內政部有沒有要再做其他口頭補充沒有齁 我想也是沒有啦 因為你們的時間已經被我們市部長用盡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12053.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12055.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
公聽會：事由：立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12074.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12090.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
退休所得替代率的調降是否要依當時年金改革所預定的方式或是到目前為止就停止再調降這樣一個聚焦的議題來進行那在這裡主席也欲做一個期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12090.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12114.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
因為這場公聽會是在上週由另外一位昭偉他排審該法案那麼我們有一個共識就是由本席輪值在本週先排一場公聽會那期待吳昭偉還能夠再排定另外一場公聽會那我想今天在座的幾位與會的學者專家代表仍有慰敬之言 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12115.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12115.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
委員會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12127.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12131.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
委員提書面資料委員提書面資料委員提書面資料委員提書面資料委員提書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12153.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12160.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
換言之你的薪資所得薪酬越高你繳出來的保費的總額越高但是並沒有人會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12162.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12189.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
計較說我繳了多少保費所以我要支領多少健保給付因為健保給付它跟我們的年金給付恰恰是不太一樣健保給付是以維持你的健康所必要進行的醫療給付如果我身強體壯很健康我薪資很高我繳了很多的保費我絕對不會想要說我生病了去領這個健康給付所以基本上從健保的給付給每一位被保險人他本身是不對等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12190.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12216.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
第一他跟他的繳的保費不對等第二他所得到的醫療服務不對等但是呢目的是維持每個人都有均等的健康條件那同樣的年金給付目前我們談的所得替代率難道是跟他在職時候他所領的薪酬高低有關嗎也就是說你在職領越多薪水你退休後所需要維持的尊嚴生活就要越高 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12217.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12217.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12241.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12263.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
就職年資 新就職年資 它是混在一起的大水壺當中去思考所以出現了這個所得替代率這個議題不然的話 如果所得替代率從整個年金制度的精神應該維持每一個退休者 不論他在職期間他所領的薪酬 職等 職種的類別為何都應該是平等的 有一致性的尊嚴的生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12264.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12265.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
公聽會８立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12291.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12291.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
公聽會 告一段落 |