| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db323e8eb5774d58befe179f717c023a2ea82e37f9ba35fd774ed625ef8bbb1fcb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-04T12:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院經濟委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等21人擬具、委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具、委員黃捷等22人、委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等16人、委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」及委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「野生動物保育法第五十一條條文修正草案」案。三、本院委員盧縣一等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。四、本院委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等17人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。五、本院委員陳素月等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。六、本院委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條條文修正草案」案。七、本院委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
2760 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:15:00 - 13:01:00 |
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委員賴瑞隆等21人擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
37.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
52.944 |
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委員賴瑞隆等21人擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等21人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
53.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
79.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
86.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
115.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院經濟委員會報告併案審查行政院審查行政院審查行政院審查行政院審查行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
116.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
142.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等17人分別擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
160.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
169.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等19人擬具、「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭昱晴等19 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
173.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
186.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 包委會我們現在開始來進行這個野保法的協商那我想我先還是先介紹一下我們先今天現在在場的委員們有這個張祺凱委員這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
191.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
194.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
陳婷菲委員、蔡易瑜委員、伍麗華委員、鄭天財委員部會首長陳部長、原民會王處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
208.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
231.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
教育部有兩個專委紀賢養紀專委跟廖雙慶廖專委海委會有羅敬明組長法務部林參事謝謝那我們現在就好那我們是不是請這個議事人員先宣讀一下上次的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
238.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
266.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
來 那我再跟委員會報告一下我們上一次的審查結論保留了四個條文分別是第19條、第21條、第21條之一及第51條之一還有保留一項附帶決議那這幾個條文要交付黨團協商那所以我們今天就從這幾個保留的條文的部分先來進行協商那首先我們先從第19條開始來 那個農業部的代表要再說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
277.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
278.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席跟各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
300.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那我們針對上一次被保留的這個第19條跟21條我們說明一下那19的部分我們是針對這個金屬售甲是全面的禁用那另外呢也接受委員的建議納入原本的這個炸藥跟爆裂物的這個使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
300.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
315.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那另外呢還有一個就是所謂的金屬套索我們是希望說金屬套索他還是有在食物上農民或者原住民族的獵人他會需要那但是我們也考量到說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
317.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
317.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
各委員請問對於這個19條的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
345.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
346.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
文字上大家有沒有什麼意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
354.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
383.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我跟大家再補充說明一下就是因為我們上次討論的時候大家對於售假的部分其實是有兩派不同的意見跟看法那我們有部分的委員認為應該要全面禁用金屬套索但是我們其實也考量到原住民族的這個傳統狩獵跟農民的防治受害其實某個程度上都還是有這一些使用金屬套索的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
383.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
412.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
但是農業部現在在推廣改良式的改良式的售甲今天他們也特別改良式的金屬套索所以今天也特別把這個食品也帶來到現場讓各位委員能夠清楚的了解所以我想兼具兩者不同的這個立場是不是我們建議維持這個行政院原來的條文內容請問各位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
414.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
426.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
可以接受嗎?接受可以喔?可以好 謝謝 謝謝各位委員的支持那我們第19條就按照行政院的提案條文通過好 來接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
430.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
455.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 接下來我們要討論第21條 那農業部農業部還有建議的條文嗎我們 第21條的部分 算是經過委員大家的討論我們接受委員的意見 就是有關於第一項的部分 排除的部分第19條第一項 本來是第一款也排除但是我們現在認為第一項的那個炸藥 炸藥跟其他的爆裂物 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
455.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
458.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
第21條以及第21條之一就是款次的調整文字上做一些調整請問大家有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
486.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
先討論21條 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
490.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
518.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
21條對啊21條之一因為你剛剛有提到21條字兩個字是一樣的啦就是我們現在把那個炸藥把它列為禁止的項目之一所以它的那個條次款項是做一些調整啦就是說我們在緊急列補的需要的時候我們也不可以使用炸藥所以現在就會排除說不能第一款也不能用所以炸藥是全面禁用不管是緊急的狀況也不可以使用這是第21條的規定以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
524.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
好 那就照農業部提供的建議條文修正通過好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
550.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
566.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們需要再讀一次21條的修正文字是不是議事人員讀一下好不好第21條第一項野生動物有下列情形之一者得予以獵殺或 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
568.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
582.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
得益略補或宰殺不受第17條第1項、第18條第1項及第19條第1項第2款至第6款規定之限制但保育類野生動物除情況緊急外應先報請主管機關處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
583.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
609.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
一、有危及公共安全或人類性命之虞二、危害農林作物家禽家畜或水產養殖三、傳播疾病或病蟲害四、有妨害航空安全之虞五、其他經主管機關核轉制情形保育類野生動物有危害農林作物家禽家畜或水產養殖在緊急情況下未及報請主管機關處理者得益 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
609.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
621.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主管機關核定致人道方式予以獵捕或宰殺以防制危害宣讀完畢好來請問各位委員第21條我們是不是就照 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
622.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
642.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
農業部建議的條文文字修正通過好嗎?好,謝謝來接下來我們看第21條之一那21條之一也是因為之前有第19條第一項的這個所列的方法所以我們也是就文字上去做一些調整我特別請議事人員唸一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
662.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
680.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第21條之一,臺灣原住民族基於其傳統文化既宜或非營利自用而有獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之必要者不受第17條第1項、第18條第1項及第19條第1項第2款至第2款規定之限制宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
687.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
688.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
前項裂骨或被查 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
691.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
720.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
第二項前項獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物之行為應經主管機關核准或被查其申請核准或被查之情形得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形申請程序應檢附文件獵捕方式獵捕動物之種類數量獵捕期間區域管理及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
721.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
728.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好來請問各位委員第21條之一我們的文字是不是照這樣修正通過伍麗華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
730.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
758.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好 我也說明一下因為這一次的修法其實是為了回應司法院大法官對於獵人王光祿案作出的釋字803號解釋所以在第21條之一就增列了院版也有增列就是非營利自用的要件納入了原住民的獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物的除罪化範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
760.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
778.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
改採被查制原住民獵捕野生動物以行政處罰取代刑罰我想這個部分我在上個會期就已經有做過提案這個也溝通過我們基於大法官解釋他是對原住民狩獵權的維護 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
779.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
798.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那也基於民間社會提倡的人道考量對於全面禁用售甲本席後來是予以尊重但是既然大法官他做出解釋那我們的修法的內容也符合他的解釋意旨所以呢就是以這個行政法替代刑法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
799.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
826.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我覺得這個條文的文字修正我不堅持可是我就是要確保在法令落實的操作過程就跟過去的獵槍一樣不會因為法條它創造的一個模糊的空間讓檢察官跟法官到時候會有不同的解釋所以呢我很堅持就是在第21條之一原住民只要是基於傳統文化、技藝或非營利自用而獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物不管 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
827.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
842.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
列具的類別或者是野生動物的類別都不要用刑罰處罰然後在第二項訂定原住民獵捕野生動物所應遵循的辦法所以這個部分我一定要再次的強調 謝謝鄭天財委員這個21條 現行的21條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
853.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
874.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
有幾個部分第一個就是說這個過去只有現行的條文只有寫傳統文化還有技藝這兩個部分那因為原住民族基本法在94年2月5號公布施行之後這個因為一直沒有修雖然我們在第八屆第九屆 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
876.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
886.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第十屆一直有提案但是一直沒有通過所以我在105年的時候就透過相關的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
891.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
916.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
解釋已經106年就解釋包含了研究法的所謂的非營利自用所以這個部分事實上在106年之後都已經有以非營利自用就可以了這是第一個第二個現在因為過去之前也提到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
918.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
942.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所有的案都要經過核准是不合理的所以有改為備查你們現在核准跟備查要對列在這個條文裡面那現在就是你的執法一定要考驗到實際的需求因為我們在原鄉你還要到還要下鄉下山還要下山給你核准事實上就是勞民傷財這第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
946.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
953.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
現在就是文字的統一性如果我們看後面的條文包括其他的法律的條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
956.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
981.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
因為當初修正的時候沒有單獨因為是單獨接條之前的修正所以我們我建議就是說那個臺灣原住民族那個臺灣兩個字可以刪除我們後面的條文也只有寫原住民族了我們其他的法律條文也都是只有寫原住民族比如說原住民族基本法沒有寫臺灣原住民族基本法原住民族委員會也沒有寫臺灣原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
982.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
984.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
行政單位有什麼意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1005.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1032.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
好 剛剛吳委員的這個提案我們其實已經在待會會討論到51條51之1處理了那鄭天財委員的這個建議呢我們就遵照辦理我們把台灣兩個字刪除好 來 法務部有沒有意見51條之1就是只有寫原住民之類的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1033.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1061.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
來那基於法律的一致性來第21條之一我們的這個臺灣兩個字把它刪除所以就是一樣都是寫原住民族等等好來那後面的這個修正的文字是不是就照原來的提案通過好嗎照那個農業部的對不起農業部的修正建議條文通過好謝謝來接下來我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1063.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1079.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
謝謝我們要討論第25條那因為這個第25條是由洪孟凱委員等提案進覆二讀那並沒有在委員會裡頭有過討論所以我們現在也把它放進來討論那個洪孟凱委員在現場是不是請洪委員謝謝感謝周委 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1080.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1101.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這個部分雖然現行條文是已經有說要經中央主管機關同意但是過去到現在我們也看到就是說有輸入所謂的這個野生動物的時候輸入保育類野生動物跟相關製品的時候也有發生一些爭議那這樣爭議的部分的情況下其實還是會造成說到底中央主管機關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1103.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1123.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
打官的部分夠不夠嚴謹以及充分所以說我才會在這邊是講是說他應該具有環境教育機構的資格並且經中央主管機關同意因為其主要在於是保育類野生動物保育類野生動物他不是一般動物而已是保育類野生動物那再加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1124.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1145.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
雖然說這個行政部門有講到是說是這一些機關可能會有所謂的這個學術交流等等的部分但是就保育類、野生動物是不是有那麼頻繁的需要做這樣的一個輸入輸出的一個狀況我想這也是值得商榷那所以是不是大家可以研究的或是說主管機關是能夠在我們相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1146.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1154.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
立法說明還是怎麼樣能夠有一些比較加緊、嚴謹不要再讓過去有發生的一些弊端的一個狀況再發生好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1156.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1179.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
請從業部說明跟委員報告一下就是說這次委員建議加了所謂環境教育機構的資格那就我們現在去查我們目前該等的這些大專院校的這些研究機構的部分大部分都不是屬於環境教育機構所以基本上如果要把它加上這樣的一個要件可能就 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1180.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1206.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個目的其實最主要是因為要所謂的學術交流的一個目的而來的啦所以我們在目前輸入的時候其實我們都還會做相當的審核而且它要基於學術教育等公共目的及用途我們才會進入很嚴格的審查它才可以輸入所以我們建議是不是還是維持目前我們的審查機制維持現在的現行條文以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1210.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1223.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
請問其他委員有沒有意見陳婷菲委員因為我想我們農業部也做了很清楚的說明所以我覺得還是維持我們原來的行政院版本的建議條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1226.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1241.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
主席我可不可以稍微補充一下就是剛才洪委員所提到的那當然增加了那個環境教育資格會造成更多的一個制度的審查但是因為我們是要經中央主管機關同意嘛所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1242.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1269.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
在中央主管機關同意的這個過程也許在立法說明我們可以再做一些說明就是說我要去同意他的時候應該他具備什麼樣的一個資格條件可以在立法說明去說明說以後中央主管機關同意的時候是基於什麼樣的原則這樣的話就是在原條不改在我們在立法說明去做一些調整不然如果實務寫這些應具教育機構資格那就是很明定的時候那就會造成一些困擾以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1272.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1287.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好 主席部長剛剛講的部分也是因為我們都希望的是說要加強這個不要說有這個弊端的一個產生那保育的野生動物其實它輸入進出本來就已經有一定的一個嚴謹性 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1288.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1317.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那所以說這樣子的一個那個文字的部分是不是能夠請同仁這邊給我稍微看一下那如果說讓我看過我覺得OK的話其實這一條我沒有那麼堅持好不好就依照現行條文但是你的這個文字要怎麼樣未來比較明確的嚴謹的一個這個中央主管機關審查的一個過程或說中央主管機關同意的一個方向你至少讓我知道可以嗎那你們這另外另外有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1319.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1343.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我們就文字不改啦條文不改然後那個維持現行條文那有一些補充說明的部分是不是再送給洪文凱委員好嗎好來請問各位委員有沒有其他意見沒有好沒有的話那我們洪文凱委員的提案我們就維持現行條文就不予修正好接下來我們看第51條之一有 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1347.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1374.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
現在還有另外兩個有張祺凱委員跟本席的修正動議是不是張委員要先補充說明一下?謝謝我看了行政院版跟我們很多委員的提案內容大致上大同小異啦我今天提到是增加說基於傳統文化基於或者是這個非營利的自用這個類譜宰殺或者非利用野生動物這違反一第二十條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1375.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1400.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第二項鎖定在辦法裡面的這個有關申請核准或者是被查這個情形得獵捕、宰殺或者利用保育類野生動物之必要的情形獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量獵捕期間、契約或者管理之規定則依照下面來處罰第一個是屬於保育類動物的處新台幣2萬以上、10萬以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1402.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1430.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
第二,屬一般野生動物的儲新台幣1000元以上、1萬元以下裡面有一個很重要的條文就是第一次首次違反前項規定者不罰然後因為失犯第一項跟第一款之行為者儲新台幣5000元以上、2萬元以下那我看得起那很多委員的都是比較類似的這個條文應該增一些不大這是第一個,然後第二個是那個抱歉剛剛高進都提了一個什麼修正動議我是幫他墊還是送上去就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1431.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1459.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
上內容都大同小異啦我看那個雅琳的還有那個伍麗華他們的整個提案都差不多嘛這可以讓我們議事人員看一下好不好因為現在突然送上來我們都還沒看到文字內容高經的不是我的案子本來就列在裡面啊來那個那個農業部你們有手上有嗎高經的還是你說的是高高經的張祺凱委員的有嗎有啦我的有啊在裡面啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1461.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1479.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
本來就有 本來就已經調回所以你 所以現在不是高金委員是您用您的名字提案就對了 對對對對阿高金這個怎麼辦他要我幫他 我就送他高金這個怎麼辦阿不是你剛剛就說明了嗎對對嘿說明的是我的喔對啊 我就跟你說這裡沒有張其凱的案阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1480.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1507.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
你現在說明的是張吉凱提案嗎?沒關係,我說的是我跟他一起連署的案啦那高津的案子就送上來一起討論就好啦好不好,沒事,OK,謝謝不是啦,你現在是高津有另外一個案跟你有另外...你的案跟高津的案是兩個不同的案還是高津是用你的名字去提案?是兩個案,是兩個案你看嘛,他講的是兩個案啦可是我現在手頭上只有一個案啊好,用高津這個討論好了,好不好好,OK好,來,那就用高津委員的提案討論齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1512.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1538.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
呃 高金委員的提案應該是那個他就加了首次不法啦 那個那個 農業部要不要好 那你要先講嗎 好 來 鄭天財委員好 這個這是一個重要的條文 第51條之一第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1542.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1569.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個我們看這個現在就是農業部所提的建議的條文跟現行的條文有很大的差別那我的第一個就是說那個第八款農業部建議的條文的那個第八款我是建議刪除了為什麼呢如果我們回到那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1572.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1597.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我把它講清楚就是使用第19條第一項第一款第7款或第8款那個第8款如果我們看這個19條19條已經有變動那以現在的19條有變動這第一個有變動了第二個從第一款第19條的第一款第一款一定是 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1598.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1627.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
最嚴重的嘛對不對一直到後面第七款第八款其他有授權給你們的一定是比較輕微的很嚴重的都已經在第一款、第二款、第三款、第四款這是一個部分嘛所以我是建議那個第51條之一這邊所提到使用第19條第一項那個第八款可以刪除這是第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1629.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1652.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
第2個為什麼還是要首次違反者不罰是因為我們也做了不同的修正比如說售假大家過去以前使用售假習慣了因為原來的條文21條所有第19條的各款第一項各款 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1654.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1683.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
當初都可以啊原住民啊現行條文是這樣啊那你現在第19條也做了修正了過去我們是不能過去可以用售假有幾個例子那現在新的條文是不能了所以還是要先導還是要先導所以還是要有首次不法這是第二個部分要請希望農業部能夠接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1684.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1712.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
第三個部分你們現在把它針對了這個保育類保育類跟非保育類一般類這個屬保育類的部分當然大法官的那個803號解釋你們不能只看一部分還要看哪個部分呢他這裡面有提到一句話 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1713.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1741.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
除有特殊例外他前面食物上啊食物上獵捕野生動物你自己的那個說明喔那邊食物上獵捕野生動物雖無法預知所獵捕到之野生動物是一般類還是保育類這是事實沒有錯對不對所以呢既然無法預知啊既然是無法預知然後大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1743.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1764.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
的解釋文也提到除有特殊情形外所以我們考慮到這個部分如果你要去分保育類跟一般類的話我的建議就是第一款的部分屬保育類、野生動物這個部分加兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1766.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1787.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
民資屬保育類野生動物加個民資就符合這個大法官的一個憲判的一個解釋所以這個部分是一個部分所以在這樣的一個情形之下當然這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1791.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1802.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
如果可以加明資的話就更符合因為這裡面本來就有寫除有特殊例外這用詞是大法官的一個用詞以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1808.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1829.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
吳麗華委員發言完之後我們請農業部回應謝謝主席在第51條之一剛才署長有講他是去處理如果原住民違反第21條之一第二項的這個鎖定的辦法的時候應該要受到行政法的一個條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1830.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1850.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
那但是如果這一次修正之後前面的其他條文如果有涉及到原住民獵捕野生動物的限制內容例如使用獸甲等等那我這邊是主張說都應該要在本條當中明確處理就是寫清楚以行政法處罰即可 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1851.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1874.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
所以在這樣的原則之下呢我的建議修正文字就把原住民族基於其傳統文化、技藝或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物加上使用第19條第一項第一款第7款或第8款鎖定禁止之方式或違反第21條之一第二項 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1876.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1890.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
增加鎖定辦法中有關申請核准或被查之情形、得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之必要情形、獵捕方式、獵捕動物之種類、數量 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
1892.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
1907.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
列補期間區域或管理之規定者一下列規定處罰就增定一屬保育類野生動物處新台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還不適用第41條之規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
1909.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
1934.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
二、署一般類野生動物處新台幣1000元以上、1萬元以下罰款增加不適用第49條第一項第二款之規定因為這個條文從上個會期其實跟很多的委員還有我們的農業部溝通過很多次應該是沒有什麼問題那也在這邊很謝謝有這樣的共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
1935.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
1956.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那另外針對剛才的那個首次我這個地方是建議就是定義不太明確到底這個首次什麼首次因為有很多的條款所以這個部分可能需要再做更清楚的定義要不然還是會落到我剛才所講的就是我們現在就是要確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
1956.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
1979.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
所以我們不希望因為我們法條所創造的模糊空間到時候又讓檢察官、法官有不同的解釋我希望這個部分要注意以上 謝謝好 來 那個我是不是農業部要先說明還是法務部就針對兩個問題一個是首次不罰的文字上是不是規定夠明確第二個是剛剛這個鄭天財委員提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
1982.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
1995.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
在後面要加明知屬保育類動物或者是明知屬一般類野生動物我不知道法律用語上可以這樣寫嗎這個待會兒可能法務部要提供一下專一解賴農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
1998.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
2018.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
跟各位委員報告一下對於那個首次違反者不罰因為這是現行條文在執行上以前都不會有問題為什麼因為首次不罰是指那個行為人要被處罰的那個人用這個人來看所以這個人他第一次違反這個規定才會被罰所以在認定上他不會有太大的困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
2019.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
2032.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
不會把你的手勢當成我的手勢所以不會有問題這個是目前執行上的一個說明那另外剛剛委員在講說要把第八管排除那我要先說明這一條的罰則它是因應21條之一來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
2038.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
2064.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
21條之一要回到21條之一去看21條之一它只有排除第二款到第六款所以第一款、第七款、第八款這三款是沒有排除的所以它沒有排除所以你違反的話就要以51條之一來做處罰所以如果委員認為第八款不該放進來那可能要回頭處理21條之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
2066.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
2068.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
委員賴瑞隆等17人分別擬具、委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
2071.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
2098.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
因為21條之一他的義務條文是在21條之一所以原住民基於傳統文化記憶或非營利自用他獵捕宰殺動物是不可以使用經中央主管機關公告的方式公告禁止的方法所以他一旦違反了這一條的規定他的處罰就會回到51條之一就處刑政法然後就不適用刑法的規定那以上做個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
2101.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
2125.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
好來簡單說就是說第50條之一其實是對應第21條之一我們是對應它所產生的罰則所以剛剛第21條之一我們已經那個文字修正通過所以第51條之一的這個罰則的部分對應上面我想是不是就比照前面第21條之一的那個罰則的部分那那個法務部可不可以補充說明一下剛剛的兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
2129.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
2158.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
主席好、各位委員大家好關於剛才幾位委員所提的一些疑問在這邊說明第一問題就是說關於首次的認定現行法本來在現行法裡面就已經有規定首次不罰的規定了所以這個在主管機關來講的話要認定首次應該不是太大的問題這個法已經施行一段時間了然後第二個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
2159.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
2160.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
加重了主管機關或檢察機關的舉證責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
2182.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
2209.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
就是說在未來在執法的過程當中要如何去舉證證明說他明明知道這個是一個保育類野生動物這個可能會有事實上的困難因為我們在捕獵的過程當中比方說他用陷阱的話我不可能預先知道我會捕獲什麼東西或者是他在很遠的距離用獵槍來瞄準那他也不一定能夠判斷說我要打的對象就是保育類 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
2210.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
2238.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那也就是說加上明知的這個要件之後的話很可能就是說因為舉證上的困難以至於說這樣子的一個處罰規定很可能就會打不到怕會打不到主管機關所希望達到的政策目的所以加上明知這兩個字的話等於就是說在要件上非常的嚴格了將來在舉證上也就產生了會比較大的困難然後另外就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
2239.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
2239.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
來 鄭天財委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
2268.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
2295.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那個法務部要聽清楚我的無論是農業部或是大法官先聽清楚都已經講得很清楚實務上獵捕野生動物無法預知所獵捕到的是一般類還是保育類尤其是晚上 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
2297.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
2323.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
尤其是晚上基本上都是晚上所以大法官才會提到除有特殊例外除有特殊例外所以我才會說這個屬保育類的部分加個名字那個一般類的不用加就是屬保育類的那個部分加個名字兩個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
2325.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
2351.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那白天我們當然就 你們就認定嘛 他是嘛 他知道嘛那晚上 這個也不是我所創的這個實務上 農業部也是這樣認為事實上也是 晚上本來就看不出來那個眼睛都是看那個動物的眼睛亮了就打了 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
2352.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
2380.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
所以這個部分在執行上應該不是那麼困難農業部可不可以說明一下我知道委員您在意的是說他獵捕的動物他不會知道是明知那我們是不是回到51條之一的我們這邊的序文我們今天序文他在獵捕宰殺動物的前提這個案子最主要的前半段他違反的是什麼是因為你用售假 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
2386.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
2400.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
主要的問題是因為他擅自使用那個售假那個售假他用售假他用我們的禁止的方法去獵捕動物只是獵捕的動物是野生動物或保育類野生動物或一般野生動物而有不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
2401.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
2422.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以如果委員擔心 那我們是不是在前面那個使用的概念上去寫說他因為基於王長長擅自使用那個第十九條第一項第一款、第七款、第八款所定禁止的方式就是說你的使用是擅自使用 是明知你明知他不可以用 像售假你不可以用 那你一定要去用 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
2423.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
2441.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以他其實不是在講後面的獵捕的動物獵捕動物他重點是在前面你使用什麼方式他處罰是因為你用這個方式去獵捕對我知道可是這個案子在51條之一被罰的是因為你用這種方式所以才會被罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
2444.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
2445.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
2476.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
2489.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
講的是前面的部分但是51條不是只有這個部分你後半段你後半段對不對你經過核准或是經過被查 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
2491.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
2512.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
然後他用獵槍符合啊對不對他符合用獵槍啊他已經核准或者是符合被查的要件的他不小心去獵到保育類動物這是不會罰的只要他通報就不會被罰這邊會處罰的是他沒有經過申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
2515.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
2529.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
等於他就直接去列補然後又去列補的保育類才會進入到剛剛講的這個部分在這一款來處理所以只要是有依法申請的他誤補是不會被罰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
2533.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
2556.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
所以如果照你們這樣的說明這個就符合到剛剛那個鄭天財委員講的大法官的那個解釋嘛好那是不是那個手刺手刺不法手刺不法這個已經這個沒有問題了這沒問題這原條文就有了對好那政委我們是不是就照這個修正的文字本來原條文就有了原條文就有 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
2559.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
2576.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
首次不拔我們納進去有啊對啊對啊要把它納回來裝回來就對了有啦有啦剛剛有講來那個我們修正的文字是不是請議事人員再念一次好不好我們會加進來修正的文字是不是我請議事人員再念一次好嗎還是我們念一次好 那個農業部念一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
2577.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
2605.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
第一項51條之一第一項原住民族基於其傳統文化、技藝或非營利自用獵捕、宰殺或利用野生動物使用第19條第一項第一款第7款或第8款所定禁止之方式或違反第21條之一第二項所定辦法中有關申請核准或被查之情形得獵捕、宰殺或利用保育類野生動物之 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
2605.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
2626.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
必要情形獵捕方式獵捕動物之種類數量獵捕期間區域或管理之規定者依下列規定處罰但首次違反者不罰一、屬保育類野生動物處清台幣2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還不是用第41條規定二、 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
2628.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
2636.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
屬一般類野生動物儲新台幣1000元以上、1萬元以下罰還不適用第49條第一項第二款規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
2644.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
2664.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
好來那如果沒有問題我們就文字就照這樣修正通過好不好好那接下來我們要討論附帶決議那目前有這個蔡議員所提的附帶決議但是蔡委員已經同意撤案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有我們就照案通過那我們還有一個新的是鄭天才委員所提的附帶決議請宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
2666.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
2689.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
委員鄭天財所提附帶決議有介於套索等劣具在原住民族傳統文化具有不可替代性未來農業部依據《野生動物保育法》第十九條第一項第八款依法公告其他禁止獵捕野生動物之方法應先會商原住民族委員會後公告此外農業部應會同原住民族 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
2690.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
2709.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
委員會透過自主狩獵管理輔導團隊及地方原民行政體系競速至原住民族地區辦理說明會將資訊充分傳達部落族人了解宣讀完畢好這個遵照辦理好來那我們就照案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
2713.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
2739.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
好來那我就唸一下協商結論我們今天的協商結論第19條條文照行政院提案的條文通過第21條21條之一第51條之一條文以及修正動議均照協商條文通過第25條維持現行條文審查會保留附帶決議一項測案然後有新增一個附帶決議 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
2742.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
2746.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
其餘條文均照審查會審查結果通過,通過新增附帶決議以上 |
| IVOD_ID |
16341 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16341 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024112925 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-04T12:15:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-04T13:01:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |