| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685323e8eb5774d58be5f4c1517bf427504a82e37f9ba35fd77ff9f28b4a1ffae0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
27291 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:09 - 16:06:00 |
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514.165 |
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514.817 |
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本集完 |
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1797.717 |
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1800.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
出席委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員先讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1805.854 |
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1832.879 |
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立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年11月27日星期三9時2分至16時8分11月28日星期四9時3分至11時54分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員王委員鄭旭等15人列席委員楊委員瓊英等16人列席官員環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員主席黃兆吉委員秀芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1833.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1847.755 |
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報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項一繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算決議審查完均內容如審查結果 |
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1848.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1865.983 |
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公務預算稅務部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第一九零項環境部九百萬二千元照列第一九一項氣候邊間署二十三萬三千元照列第一九二項資源循環署三十六萬五千元照列第一九三項化學物質管理署二十九萬六千元照列 |
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1866.383 |
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1894.151 |
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第一九四項環境管理署七百萬元照列第一九五項國家環境研究院六百萬元照列第三款規費收入第一五七項環境部四千二百九十萬八千元照列第一五八項資源循環署十九萬元照列第一五九項化學物質管理署三千八百六十萬六千元照列第一六零項國家環境研究院一千九百六十五萬一千元照列第四款財產收入第二零二項環境部八十萬七千元照列 |
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1894.591 |
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1909.458 |
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第203項 化學物質管理署6千元照列第204項 環境管理署92萬元照列第205項 國家環境研究院122萬3千元照列第7款 其他收入第201項 環境部862萬8千元照列第202項 化學物質管理署18萬2千元照列第203項 環境管理署198萬5千元照列 |
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1916.861 |
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1934.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
第204項國家環境研究院352萬元照列稅出部分第18款環境部主管第一項環境部原列15億7307萬6千元簡列第一幕科技發展向下淨零排放科技10萬元第二幕一般行政40萬元含基本行政工作維持中業務費之委辦費20萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1936.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1945.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
第5目水質保護向下水污染防治10萬元以上共計減列60萬元科目均自行調整其餘均照列改列為15億7247萬6千元本項通過決議79項第二項氣候變遷屬原列5億7964萬元減列第二目一般行政20萬元科目自行調整其餘均照列改列為5億7944萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1961.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1968.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
本項提案一案保留送院會處理本項通過決議25項第三項資源循環署10億9910萬1千元照列本項提案二案保留送院會處理本項通過決議34項第4項化學物質管理署原列13億7799萬9千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1979.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1986.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
簡列第二幕一般行政20萬元科目自行調整其餘均照列改列為13億7779萬9千元本項提案二案保留送院會處理本項通過決議27項第5項環境管理署原列25億1489萬4千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1995.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2023.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
簡列第一幕一般行政二十萬元第二幕環境管理一百一十萬元含推動環境管理工作五十萬元多元化垃圾處理計畫第二期計畫五十萬元以上共計簡列一百三十萬元科目均自行調整其餘均照列改列為二十五億一千三百五十九萬四千元本項提案二案保留送院會處理本項通過決議四十七項第六項國家環境研究院原列五億七千三百零八萬六千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2024.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2052.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
簡列第二幕一般行政二十萬元科目自行調整其餘均照列改列為五億七千二百八十八萬六千元本項通過決議十三項基金預算非營業部分特別收入基金環境保護基金一業務計劃應依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二基金來源用途及餘處基金來源九十二億六千一百九十八萬五千元照列基金用途原列八十三億九千四百三十七萬二千元 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2053.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2076.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
簡列資源回收管理基金向下資源回收管理計劃50萬元土壤及地下水污染整治基金150萬元含土壤及地下水污染整治計劃向下土壤及地下水污染整治策略規劃100萬元環境教育基金向下環境教育推動計劃10萬元以上共計簡列210萬元科目均自行調整其餘均照列改列為83億9227萬2千元本期剩餘 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2079.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2106.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
原列八億六千七百六十一萬三千元增列二百一十萬元改列為八億六千九百七十一萬三千元三結繳公庫零元照列四通過決議三十二項信託基金部分資源回收管理基金一基金運用計劃因依據收支餘出撥補等項之審查結果隨同調整二總收入七十八億七千八百三十五萬九千元照列三總支出六十六億二千四百四十八萬九千元照列 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2107.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2129.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
本期剩餘十二億五千三百八十七萬元照列清潔人員執行職務死亡技術基金一基金運用計劃因依據收支於處撥補等項之審查結果隨同調整二總收入二百四十五萬二千元照列三總支出五百五十三萬五千元照列四本期短處三百零八萬三千元照列五通過決議一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2133.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2144.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
繼續審查環境部含重環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人一百一十四年度預算書案預算處理決議全案審查完略內容如審查結果你具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由黃兆吉委員秀芳補充說明審查結果一環境資源研究發展基金會 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2155.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2169.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
一、工作計劃部分因依據收入支出不動產廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資及基金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整二、收入支出及輿出部分收入總額7600萬元照列支出總額6850萬元照列本期稅前剩餘750萬元照列三、不動產廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資五列數 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2179.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2200.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
資金運用部分因依據收入支出不動產廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資等事項之審查結果隨同調整通過決議二項環境與發展基金會工作計畫部分同環境資源研究發展基金會收入支出及輿促部分收入總額一億一千四百三十七萬四千元照列 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2201.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2230.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
支出總額一億零四百六十六萬三千元照列本期稅前剩餘九百七十一萬一千元照列三不動產廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資七千八百零九萬七千元照列四資金運用部分同環境資源研究發展基金會五通過決議二項三環境權保障基金會一工作計劃部分同環境資源研究發展基金會二收入支出及輿促部分收入總額二千三百四十萬元照列支出總額 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2230.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2256.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
二千二百四十一萬六千元照列本期稅前剩餘九十八萬四千元照列三不動產廠房及設備及投資性不動產投資無列數四資金運用部分同環境資源研究發展基金會五通過決議一項四大科砍環境永續發展基金會一工作計劃部分同環境資源研究發展基金會二收入支出及餘出部分收入總額十六萬元照列 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2256.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2257.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
請問委員上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有那議事錄確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2283.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2285.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
本日會議的議程為邀請勞動部部長針對勞動部勞動力發展署 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2294.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2320.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程．進行專案報告．並備質詢。現在我們介紹在場的委員王一鳴委員王振旭委員林業勤委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2326.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2349.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們介紹我們行政官員第一個是我們勞動部部長 洪松漢辛苦啦 轉換角色勞動力發展署 代理署長 陳世昌職業安全衛生署 署長 周芷蓮中和規劃司司長 王厚誠 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2353.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2362.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
勞動關係司司長王厚偉勞動保險司司長陳美女勞動條件就業平等司司長黃維琛勞動法務司司長傅惠芝秘書處處長丁玉珍 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2384.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2391.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
人事處處長江碧玲政風處處長周志信會計處處長林美信 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2402.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2421.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我先報告一下本來就是排定今天12月4號請洪部長來做施政等等的理念因為大家都很期待我們從立法院委員轉換成勞動部部長大家都要期待本來就擺今天這個上星期就11月28號 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2426.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2441.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
紅部長他有親自打電話給我星期四晚上我們就討論一下他很感謝我排12月4號今天我本來就排今天所以我就鼓勵他也請他趕快好好準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2443.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2461.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以那個禮拜五上個禮拜五吳斯堯委員講的是我不會說的他說我良心花現才改成禮拜三這我要在這裡再次的鄭重講對就對不對就不對不要這樣胡說八道也沒有參與也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2464.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2471.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
知悉我們的對話所以我是這邊再次的鄭重聲明我們接下來請我們的勞動部紅部長報告7分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2484.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2503.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主席然後現場各位委員那也包括我們部內的同仁也很多媒體朋友我確實還是要在這邊先跟趙偉再一次表達感謝那也包括今天趙偉排的這個題目讓我們有機會能夠到委員會裡面來跟大家做一個至少在這個階段的一些相關的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2506.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2529.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
今天貴委員會召開第11屆第2會期第12次全體會議我應邀進行勞動部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件及如何完善申訴管道之具體策進作為及期程專題報告本部身為勞工主管機關肩負推動及監督企業建構安全健康友善職場的使命 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2530.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2557.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
對於該分署近期發生的職場霸凌事件本部克正檢討相關機制及策進作為除優化內部職場友善環境外亦檢討現行相關法制以建立兼顧勞資雙方權益之務實可行制度以下警究該分署事件後本部強化內部職場霸凌防制精進作為與研議完善職場霸凌預防及處理法制等策進作為進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2559.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2585.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
並藉此機會聆聽各位委員對於本部行政團隊的期許與指教。一、本部勞動力發展署北基宜花金馬分署事件處理情形及強化防治作為。一、本部113年11月18日調查報告對相關人員作出以下處置。一、北分署謝宜榮分署長的部分。一、公務人員考機法 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2586.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2607.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
一次進兩大過並免除職務。 公務人員懲戒法第5條第3項及第24條規定移送檢察院進行審查並停止其職務。涉及不法部分臺北市臺灣新北地方檢察署已立案偵查本部亦提供相關資料並全力配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2609.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2635.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
2.勞動部發案署蔡木良署長部分1.公務人員考記法即一大過並調任非主管職務考量本次北分署事件於本部113年11月19日公布之調查報告因未盡完善引發社會高度爭議因此本部重組調查委員會重啟調查目前已進入實質調查的程序和階段待調查報告完成後會儘速向各界說明調查結果3. |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2640.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2656.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
啟動職場重建及員工支持方案並提供專屬申訴管道因此事件讓北分署同仁承受很多的壓力造成同仁的心理充滿不安及焦慮故本部針對北分署啟動職場重建及員工支持方案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2656.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2679.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
法律諮詢與心理諮商並進．個別與團體諮商皆在規劃內．在心理諮商部分．除了既有人事單位EAP與本部在事發後徵聘的北分署專案外．將擴大連結北北基宜區域資源網絡．讓同仁可依競變性與信任性等需要自選諮商支持支援．費用由勞動部來支援 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2683.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2701.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
只此非常時期,亦於11月26日,我自己親自致北分署向同仁們宣布個人專屬的申訴專線及email,在絕對保密的前提下,讓同仁可以安心地進行建議及申訴,其能讓同仁早日安心工作,讓職場正常運作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2704.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2722.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
本部就機關內部強化職場霸凌防制之策進作為現行本部員工職場霸凌申訴處理規定本部於104年即已訂定勞動部員工安全及衛生防護要點據落實職業安全衛生法公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2724.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2739.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
有關執行植物質安全及衛生防護措施並於113年3月修正增列機關首長涉及職場霸凌事件應由上級機關受理申訴規定本部與知西北分署同仁反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2740.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2761.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
分署長設有職場霸凌情形後,於11月8日成立事件專案調查小組,由政務次長擔任召集人,同時聘請據法律及心理諮商專家學的參與,訪談分署同仁意見,以匿名問卷的方式了解事件發生之原因及相關經過。 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2763.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2783.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
並即時啟動心理諮商關懷員工之機制如前所述由於曾前次調查報告爭議人多本案已重組調查委員會克正重啟調查二本部職場霸凌防制申訴及處理規定未來修正重點為現行安全及衛生防護小組任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2785.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2799.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
主要側重辦公室場所安全及衛生防護訓練及宣導故成員多為內部同仁處理程序要求不多對於具高度專業之職場霸凌申訴事件的調查與決定擁有精進和強化的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2800.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2823.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因此本部將參考重整其他行政機關及最高行政法院之做法就職場霸凌事件之防制申訴及處理另為特別規定其建構友善職場環境並確保本部同仁身心健康擬議未來修正重點如下一、完善申訴制度、申訴管道多元化、明定申訴電話 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2825.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2839.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
傳真電子信箱專用信箱等申訴管道．並於工作場所公開揭示．如當事人僅口頭提告．協助當事人提起申訴．當事人無意願申訴．仍進行適當處理提供相關協助． |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2840.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2861.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
保密及保護明文化將現行實務上有關處理資產霸凌申訴案件之人員對於申訴人之姓名以及其他足以辨識身份之資料應予以保密之作法明文規定並明定對於申訴人及其他參與協助之人不得為不當之差別待遇或不利處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2862.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2880.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
2.訂定專責調查機制由職場霸凌申評會專責調查其評議職場霸凌之認定涉及事件發生之背景工作環境以及霸凌行為樣態頻率目的及動機等具體情況之認定具有高度的專業性 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2881.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2907.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
原尼獨立組成職場霸凌申評會專責處理二、申評會組成專業化處理程序明文化職場霸凌申評會組成將擴大外部專業人士參與並將受理申訴處理流程期限保密等及迴避等均為明確規定使調查決定可以更為外界信賴各界信賴強化職場霸凌防制教育及保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2909.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2932.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
輔助措施．加強主管人員及同仁的教育訓練．並適當事人需要提供或轉介諮詢．輔導醫療．法律輔助及心理諮商等資源．恢復身心健康．建立後續追蹤監督機制．對於職場霸凌之行為．人依據相關公務員及其他相關法律予以懲處．並進行後續追蹤平和．以確保不再有霸凌及報復行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2935.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2939.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
研議事業單位霸凌執場霸凌防制的法制化一線型 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2940.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2966.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
職場霸凌預防及處理規定資安法及職業安全衛生設施規定以明定故主對於執行職務因他人行為而遭受身體及精神不法侵害應採取危害辨識評估工作場所配置與工作適性安排危害預防與溝通技巧訓練建構行為及規範申訴通報調查處理程序之措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2966.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2988.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
勞工人數達100人以上之事業單位．並依參考本部公告之執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引．訂定職場不法侵害預防計劃．並具以執行顧主若未落實設施規則所定之相關措施．經通知限期改善．限期為改善處3萬至15萬元罰還嚴議強化職場霸凌防制與外部申訴調查及處理機制為強化職場霸凌防制．各界之訴求除建議將現行 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2996.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3005.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引提升到法律違節亦包括制定職場霸凌防制專法明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3010.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3032.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
明確職場霸凌認定強化申訴管道調查認定機制行為人若為僱主及處理及救濟程序內容為完善法制本部已採取下列措施收集國際法制與作法本部已收集歐盟美國日本及韓國等國家對職場霸凌預防及處理事相關作法經初步了解目前國際尚無 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3034.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3056.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
大齡房制制定專法且無明確定一五第三方調查機制日本及韓國是分別與勞動基準法及勞動失策綜合推進法明定僱主因房子因職務或關係優勢造成勞工身心痛苦或惡化工作環境之規定廣正外界意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3056.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3073.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
研議強化職場霸凌及至本部就如何提升職場霸凌防制之法令制度課正研議中,無論是採取強化現行職安法徵修規定或研議職場霸凌專法或專章等方案均持開放性廣大 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3074.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3099.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
開放性態度廣納各界意見．並將秉持勞資雙方共識下省慎橫著勞工勞動權益與雇主公司治理權限之橫平性研議務實可行之方案三研議職場霸凌申訴及諮詢專線為進一步提供勞工專線申訴及諮詢服務克正評估建制受理職場霸凌申訴專線之可行性結語為確保所有工作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3099.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3128.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
安全與健康本部課證強化機關內部員工申訴調查與處理機制並精進相關預防措施針對強化企業職場霸凌預防的部分持續透過宣導輔導檢查等手段強化僱主落實法尊並藉由多元策進營造友善健康與安全之企業文化預防職場不法侵害針對本部所屬機關發生職場霸凌事件本部以深切檢討並虛心接受各界指證 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3129.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3147.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
未來如除加速完備本部及所屬單位之申訴調查處理機制外將持續透過社會多方對話完善職場霸凌防制機制健全申訴調查及處理機制維護勞動權益以上報告進行指教並助主席各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3153.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3168.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
有關本市會議各項疏遠資料今列入紀錄刊登公報現在我們開始詢答做以下先告本委員會詢答時間8分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3169.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3190.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
委員若有書面質詢,請於上會前提出,預期不受理。暫定10點半左右,休息10分鐘。嚴則上,若有臨時提案,我們11點半處理。好,我們現在請第一位,11點截止說完臨時提案。現在請登記第一位委員,王玉琳,質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3197.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3199.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
謝謝主席,我們是不是有請洪部長來,洪部長請部長好,你今天是不是很緊張啊?因為我看你剛剛的報告你是逐字照稿演出,一字不漏,你是不是很緊張?其實這幾天已經很多媒體來詢問了,壓力是有,但不至於到緊張 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3225.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3230.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
因為我覺得如果是很熟練的話逐字念稿這個是比較罕見的剛剛還超時希望這個你可以升任愉快因為你是在沒有準備好的情況底下上任我想你的壓力應該特別大但是該監督的我們絕對是監督到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3242.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3260.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
第一個我就要問你有關於這個勞動部濫用救安基金8000萬那可以看到這個林林總總從整個外牆的整修連咖啡豆會議室的揚聲器的採購公文的這個文書信封還有垃圾的清運還有臉書 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3262.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3280.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
網路經營等等這些錢通通都要由救安基金來支出勞動部是不是把救安基金變成是你們的小金庫哪一個部會缺錢然後就從這個救安基金裡面把錢搬過來任意使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3282.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3307.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
跟委員報告齁,其實在上週我剛接任的時候,其實我其實就已經有交代同仁,針對救安基金的滋擁問題你承不承認現在的救安基金就是有使用腐爛、濫用的一個情況?部長你承不承認?我們在檢視過,上週我其實就要求我們針對救安基金的使用進行檢視我們在這幾天的檢視過程裡面,坦白說我們真的,我們是有發現部分的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3308.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3335.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
只有部分嗎?八千萬算是部分項目嗎?是有部分的項目在致用的合一上面你認為現在所列出來這些項目通通由救安基金來使用合理嗎?包括你們的臉書網路的經營、垃圾的清運還有咖啡豆的採購、外牆整修通通都要由救安基金來支出這個合理嗎?委員我們是有認為裡面部分的項目確實是有問題的那幾項你告訴本席哪一項是不合理的? |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3336.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3356.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
還是你也認同我上週其實我們其實就看到比方說看到那個會議室的設備採購這個會議室的設備採購要花掉2250萬那我們其實因為上週我其實也到了法案署我看了那間會議室 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3357.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3374.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那對於這個會議是要的這個整修要用到2000多萬這樣的經費坦白說我是不能接受的我就問你未來你現在已經當部長了未來這些項目支出在今年省救安基金的時候你們還會不會這樣子編列會不會這樣子使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3376.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3390.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
跟委員報告其實目前針對救安基金的支用我們其實已經未經交代法案署那我們一定是必須針對把關機制進行強化因為這裡面會有個案性的問題也有機制面的問題針對機制面的問題我們其實已經開始在邀請相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3396.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3412.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
所以部長你也不敢直接回答這幾大項目現在大家揪出來的認為有濫用之語的你也不敢直接明確表態說以後你就不會這樣子編列這些項目一律不准從救安基金支出我覺得你不敢做這樣的稱呼你再迴避問題我沒有迴避問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3415.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3432.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那你就直接告訴大家未來會不會這樣使用但是委員我想讓委員知道其實這裡面有一些相關的項目坦白說並不是現在所有媒體曝光出來的項目都每一項都有問題並不是所以你認同部分的項目部分的項目有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3433.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3453.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
你覺得這部分有問題有些是你認同的以後還會這樣子使用就對了我們會在使用的名目上面更明確的做檢討他到底合不合宜我們會用資質的檢討來去處理問題本席就告訴你你們現在如何的濫用這個救安基金大家都在關注這個許民村的演唱會 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3454.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3482.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
你們對外說花了368.7萬元在這個演唱會結果我去調資料你們的計畫裡面根本沒有這個演唱會的項目我要問你們的是請問演唱會的舞台燈光音響樂團服裝人員這一些的支出項目到底在哪裡從你們提供給我的資料裡面沒有一筆是這樣的支出你們的支出是什麼大家看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3483.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3489.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個PVP上面的影帶製作204萬影像拍攝150萬平面設計8萬客製化的口罩12萬請問你們編列這樣的一個預算是文宣媒體採購結果變成了百萬的演唱會預算可以這樣子腐爛的使用嗎我們再看下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3511.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3538.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
你這個是完全的細項喔你的影帶製作裡面你說你要做7支影帶一支影帶的金額是高達29萬0837元然後你的影像拍攝是一組145萬4163元還有平面設計兩組然後你還要做口罩非常的昂貴一個口罩要24塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3540.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3559.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
請問你這一些你勞動部還有書面的驗收記錄然後我就是看不出來演唱會的任何一筆支出到底在你這一個宣導製作裡面哪一筆是符合演唱會的支出通通都沒有那演唱會的錢從哪裡來你告訴本席那個跟網友報告齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3566.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3579.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
呃針對現在大家看到這個音樂會的活動其實也是一樣上週其實我們就請有單位來做報告第一個事情是確實性公法是臺灣包括性別平等包括勞動法之外非常標誌性的事件但是我要說的是對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3581.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3608.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
有部分的橋段的呈現確實如果讓這不是橋段呈現問題部長我現在在問你是說你們自己告訴本席的是你們這一個音樂會原位專編預算你是沒有編預算的結果你就直接把文宣媒體的通路的採購案直接的錢把它挪過來然後就去辦演唱會預算是可以這樣子用的嗎政風處處長你上來 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3613.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3614.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我了解他是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3634.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3643.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
整個就是媒體通路然後他他是一個開口合約然後再根據我們各個計劃的項目再去執行的 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3644.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3646.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
那你沒看到他的怎麼編列嗎?他的影帶製作一支要29萬多要做7支就佔掉200多萬了 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3666.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3674.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
那我就高度懷疑啊要嘛就是你這個媒體採購你根本就是浮邊亂邊都是灌水的天底下哪有那麼好的事情我要幫你做7支的影單一支成本高達29萬然後還要免費送你一個演唱會演唱會百萬等級的我沒有看過這樣子的一個一個開口合約我也沒有看過一個媒體可能會這麼大方要嘛就是你這一些所謂的媒體7支通通都是灌水的 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3696.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3699.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
就是腐爛製造的29萬應該要拍出什麼樣的水準你那7支影片提供給委員會我們大家來欣賞一下我們大家來看一下花29萬一支的這個影帶成本到底拍成什麼樣子這個是完全不合理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3712.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3726.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
這個就是違法挪用預算嘛那預算彥聰還可以過關腐爛到如此這般的程度這樣子是可以的嗎沒有編列在計畫裡面的預算也可以使用救安基金是這樣子用的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3727.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3734.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
本目前此案檢調其實已經來做調閱跟偵辦了你們自己都沒有發現有問題連政風處處長都不敢講一聲部長你也不覺得有問題我當然我沒有我不會說他沒有問題但是現在檢調確實已經在偵辦跟調閱中本部會全力配合檢調的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3748.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3767.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個你以後要怎麼改善救安基金我們要怎麼樣監督現在你手上握有權力請問你要如何強化監督我們目前正在研議這個強化監督的機制你什麼時候機制要出來包括現在對於可能呈現的形式上面的批評跟指教當然我們都會納入這事情的參考你預計什麼時候提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3767.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3791.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
我希望我真的是希望盡快因為這幾天我們其實就請同仁找外部的專業者來提供給我們專業的我想這個社會大家受不了這個救安基金變成是勞動部的金庫而且任意的挪用甚至還違法的使用這個絕對是大家沒有辦法忍受的事情所以我要求你應該要限期就要提出你的監督機制一個月可不可以可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3792.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3815.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
可以齁好我要求一個月之後你要把這個重新的監督管理機制提出來另外最後我要問你今天本來其實你應該要提提示這個調查報告有關於吳姓公務員親身的這個事件的調查報告按照那個期程之前勞動部答應委員會就是兩個禮拜的時間就是今天時間到了結果今天你隻字未提說還在重啟調查那我就問你我就問你期程你的調查報告什麼時候給委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3822.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3823.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我們目前預計下週會讓重啟調查的報告對外界來公告公布然後會來說明下週就可以下週下週禮拜七 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3834.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3853.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我要跟委員說因為我們目前正在增加訪談的對象也是希望能夠讓這個調查報告更加的周延跟完整那我自己也希望要快可是確實這裡面的時間我自己可能我自己也希望盡快但我目前預期之人就是在下週下週一定要交出來而且下週我要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3855.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3878.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
針對這一個無姓員工他生前他的上班時值的時間上一次你們交的是10月22號為止喔你們的報告裡面必須往前回溯他到底從什麼時候開始就已經是過勞超時加班這些你應該都要一個一個你們既然是仔細的調查我要看到這個部分不可以只交10月22號的這一個上班紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3880.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3903.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
委員我想跟各位說明在這次的調查報告裡面我們當然更希望去還原這位無姓的公務員他究竟經歷了什麼我們很希望就這部分能夠把他理清楚那給家屬一個真誠的交代這是我們這次調查報告裡面我認為很重要的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3904.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3905.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
這段時間大家各界其實有很多的建議其實在12月2號就是禮拜一的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3924.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3943.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
職安署也請邀請了專家學者來做研商那專家學者其實提供了不管是專法或者是專章或者是比較小幅的修法各種優缺的意見所以你們現在還沒有訂件我現在持開放態度那你預計修法什麼時候要送到立法院來我一樣要求的是期程你們還要多久時間期程 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3946.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3962.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
我們上次跟委員會報告是我們這個預告進行然後我們會送行政院是一個 送立法院一個下個會期會來做進行下個會期是要等到明年了對明年什麼時候下個會期二月份一開一就會送進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3963.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3989.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那個跟委員報告其實確實要做職場霸凌的法制的話這確實蠻多專業性的問題那我們也在參考目前國際上面法制相關的案例那如果要動的條件特別多的話 當然知道如果任何事情都要有目標要有期程要有具體的進度我們要求的是這個不可以遙遙無期啊當然我們絕對不會遙遙無期那就是下個會期一定要送進來我們希望對二月份我們希望下個會期能夠送進來好 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3992.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3994.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
主席 麻煩我們的紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4018.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4034.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
11月4日北分署發生不幸事件讓整個社會感到震驚在這事件當中勇於赴任本席跟全國民眾都對你充滿期待根據勞動部11月26日 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4037.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4053.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
的新聞稿指出你上任的第一天就公布了三大措施也就是申訴直通我們的部長室然後杜絕送禮文化廢除5S所以本席認為這是長久以來公務文化的一個正面的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4054.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4072.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
不過也想問的就是是不是讓你有一些時間去說明就是說這次事件當中受害最深的自然是發展署的那個北分署的同仁們而勞動部的同仁們也是感同身受所以你對這次有什麼樣更具體的做法剛剛前面當然有一部分報告是不是讓你多一點時間來做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4076.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4087.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
謝謝林委員其實在上週禮拜一我這個就任後隔天我其實就到北分我們就到北分署去做了訪查一個早上在訪查過程中 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4089.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4104.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
坦白說我很清楚的感覺到目前北分署整個署的同仁蠻多的其實的心理上面的狀況在長期的這個不當管理的情況之下其實蠻多看起來都有一些狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4105.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4124.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以我要說其實確實現在我們看到這個所謂的霸凌的問題可能不是只是這個謝前分署長針對吳姓的公務員而已而是他其實是一個在帶領整個這個分署的過程裡面其實普遍性的管理作風 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4125.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4149.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
都是有問題的但是涉及到一些細節的部分可能留待這個重啟調查的報告所以在這狀況下面其實我們有意識到我們的工作一開始要優先的來支持北分署的員工所以我們其實有規劃了一個針對北分署的職場重建與員工支持方案在這個方案裡面有幾個很重要第一個我們需要給 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4150.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4165.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
本分數的員工很明確的法律上面的支持因為其實現在本分數員工也受到不管是檢調甚至警方或各個調查單位來去做約詢其實大家心裡壓力也是很大所以讓大家有一個明確的法律的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4166.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4195.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
這很重要那目前這已經在辦理中了第二個就像剛才講的大家在心理上面其實是有受傷的情況壓力很大或者是這個很多的不安那我們除了現有當然講這個EAP就是每個每個部會都有的EAP的資源外我們目前也規劃了一個去連結這個北北基宜其實相關的心理諮商的資源希望能夠讓分署的員工可以自選這些資源你可能就你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4196.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4217.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
這個比較近的地方或者是你可信任的心理諮商資源你都可以去做心理諮商那相關的費用都會由勞動部來做支應我們希望能夠給予北分署的員工至少最大的支持能夠讓大家從過去比較負面的狀況下面逐漸的回到正軌我想這是我們現在很重要優先的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4217.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4242.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
好謝謝部長的確這很重要因為過去我們在民間服務的時候碰到這些事情的話的確他們需要的是法律上的一些諮詢比如說要到法院裡面如果要做證人或者什麼的話他們真的很需要還有心理的安定那另外就想問接續問說你如何強化勞動部的申訴機制所以我們的發展署這北分署是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4242.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4243.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
現有的機制做出一些優化,比方說 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4271.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4286.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這個申訴處理成員的專業化這部分很重要第二個我們也會來追蹤列管其實相關的案件重點就是要確保不會有吃案的狀況會出現所以這幾個是現有機制的優化我們會來做但 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4287.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4305.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
我想大家也知道說這個安全衛生小組的這個他們其實受理的範圍很廣所以我們會也先目前在規劃把關於職場霸凌的部分的專責化會拉出來另立一個機制讓大家在另外的這個機制裡面來去做進行那目前的法制作業我也要求我們就趕快來把 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4306.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4334.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
趕快來讓這個這個市場霸凌防治的專責的這個機制趕快做出來而不是只是放在安全衛生防護小組裡面目前大概是這樣子那剛剛因為前面王委員也問因為最近媒體報導就救安基金的帳目不清以招挪用的爭議有沒有有要再做補充甚至未來你大概怎麼去執行這一塊減少掉這樣子的一個相關的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4337.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4359.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
確實過去其實勞動部一直來本部的預算都比較少所以有很多的資用變成是在用救安基金來去做相關的資用他有他本身的一些結構性的問題那我們當然也會盡量的來跟行政院來爭取勞動部本部的預算應該要再能夠再做擴充這是第一點第二點是就像剛剛我們其實有講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4361.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4380.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
我們也檢視了目前救安基金包括管理會相關的機制我們確實覺得是有強化的必要那但是這個強化也涉及到一些也許涉及到一些審計相關的專業不管是事前或者是事後事前預防或者是事後的檢視的一些專業所以我們現在在也正在找相關專業的專業者來去做討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4383.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4402.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
那咨詢他們把他們意見納進來後我們趕快把剛才說到說可能我們希望能不能在一個月左右的時間把強化的機制能夠送出然後讓外界對於這個接下來從機制面的改善來去做救安基金致用的把關好謝謝部長也希望你後邊能夠因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4403.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4433.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
前朝產生的問題你這邊希望透過你的類似的一些做法能夠來做好把關像這次除了講到職場霸凌實際上還有一個非常很大的問題是因為我們的公務人員的保障法第23條制定了各機關的加班費的資給辦法那公務人員加班的申請加班費退休這些勞動條件都有明文規定可是有時候我們看申請加班主管核准那當然加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4433.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4458.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
可是如果主管不核准的話他自行加班可是很多業務掛在身上他導致他們必須還是要把工作完成的時候那有時候加班費不足那就請他補休可是有時候大量的這樣的加班可能我們就最後加班費沒辦法支應的時候最後就是補休可是到年底的時候可能一筆勾銷加班的補休也沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4459.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4486.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
所以我不知道部長對加班的黑數你應該都很清楚過去你一直關心勞動朋友們他們不管在企業體或者現在公務體系也有這樣狀況的話你對這樣的黑數的問題是你上任以來要處理的狀況嗎好這部分我分兩部分來回答第一個勞動部下面確實是有正式的公務人員也有一些約聘的適用勞基法的工作人員那針對適用勞基法的部分我們會要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4488.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4510.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我們的業務單位該加班的問題該怎麼記就怎麼記務必要符合老基法這是這個約片的部分那公務員確實有一個加班的上限那我會一直來要求同仁說絕對要避免黑數的狀況不要再有那種好像要大家去打了卡然後再叫大家加班的情況確實現在會有一個上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4511.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4540.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
那我會來盡力的在我們的工作的作業流程裡面去檢討怎麼樣子減少同仁不必要的負擔這當然是減少加班一個非常重要的重點可是符合規定也是我會要求很重要的重點謝謝部長因為你過去在當立委的時候就一直跟勞動朋友是站在一起的我也希望秉持這樣的心能夠持續那最後就想問一下因為大家都還是很關心因為蜜兔應該講是 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4541.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4542.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
職場霸凌的蜜兔運動 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4543.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4572.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
所以剛剛也提到你修法因為不是只有公務體系事實上我們也很關心因為我們辦公室就很常收到民眾對於他在企業上班結果被職場霸凌的時候到勞動局去申訴通常都是已讀不回或者說那這個不是在範圍內所以我們當然就很關心修法那可是先修法剛剛你也回答前面王委員問的時候你說那因為還是要等到下個會期可是當中可以做些什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4573.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4603.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
好一樣我分兩個部分第一個部分就是確實執安法目前在職場霸凌上面的定義我們在解釋過確實還有可以要比恐怕是必須要定的更加清楚對一些樣態你才有辦法在這個法條的執行上面是足夠明確不會引起爭議所以這是針對這個霸凌法制化這防制霸凌法制化的部分我們會絕對會加速來做這是第一個第二個是其實現在是有這個執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4604.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4631.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
那我會請職安署來研議針對這個執行趕快來做優化因為確實修法需要的時間比較多但當下其實現在在一些不同的職場裡面已經有相關的案件很多人反應恐怕不一定能夠等得及修法但這個部分就這個執行本身我們趕快先來做優化那就像剛才說其實處理相關的要怎麼樣專業化或者是怎麼樣避免失案的狀況我覺得會是我們在這個執行裡面把它修訂很重要的一種的環節這麻煩因為我們希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4632.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4632.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4654.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4666.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
能夠讓他們順利解決這問題可是還是希望法能夠盡速來做調整以上謝謝謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長繼續我們請陳清薇委員質詢謝謝主席謝謝委員我也請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4681.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4706.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
部長我們上個會期王玉敏委員擔任召委的時候那個時候針對一些消防人員的意外我們曾經排審公會法但當時呢全序部考試院來了他們說再給他們一點時間他們想要再擬更詳細的這個公務人員協會法那這邊本席是找出您之前的一段發言幫我播一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4708.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4728.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
其實是因為剛有工會以後,裡面就包括了罷工權。我自己是支持,我覺得可以有罷工權。但我知道這個社會裡面有很多人沒有不支持這件事情。這個事情可能是比較爭議的,或者是需要共識的地方。 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4729.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4740.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
好那考試院全序部呢今年7月就端了一個新的菜色出來首先他先降低門檻可是警察還有消防人員對這樣子的門檻並沒有滿意他是300人150人他的門檻還是過高剛林月琴委員有稱讚您說您非常貼近我們勞工朋友的心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4750.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4764.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
老公現在這個修正工會法已經從30人降到10人了這個相信您也很清楚您之前在節目上的發言也很感動我們的消防人員所以我也想知道說您在節目中講的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4766.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4779.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
公會這個如果修公務人員的協會法他現在只能提出行政救濟啊訴訟還是很難進行協商因為他們並沒有團結權協商權以及罷工權那我也想問您今天是否有這個意願會想幫助我們的消防員朋友警察朋友等等的可以納入公會法的修訂呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4793.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4806.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
好 謝謝陳委員對於公務人員是否能夠組公會的問題就像你剛才說這部分確實有涉及到考試員的權責我想大家都很清楚那我們當然很願意跟考試員一起來討論那就像你剛才拿出的這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4808.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4826.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
影片裡面如果就主公會來說大概一般來講會有三個重要的權利協商權結社權跟罷工權那罷工權的部分確實是目前大家在討論這公務人員或主公會裡面比較爭最爭議的我其實之前我講的很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4827.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4853.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
所以我當然現在是一個勞動部長我覺得我很願意就是說針對至少針對比方說像協商權跟結社權這部分來跟考試院來做充分的討論跟支持我很願意但是我們必須就像我節目說的目前因為主動的跟考試院來做聯繫我們當然願意來跟考試院來反映大家的需求可是我要說的是目前這個相關的法規的組織是在考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4854.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4860.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
就像我說罷工權確實在目前社會上面是爭議的事件是爭議的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4863.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4883.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以至少我覺得就可以先優先來保障的事情是結社權跟協商權就是比較沒有爭議可以優先來保障也是有一個可能衛環委員會再把它拿回衛環來保障這些警消人員我們重新修法假使基層的這些人員並不滿意這個提出來的新版公務人員協會法的話這個是勞動部2017年提出來的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4889.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4913.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
2017年他們曾經講過說針對這樣子的問題我們看到辛苦的消防人員年輕的生命不斷的在各個的新聞不斷不斷在流逝他們之前提出四個建議一個是修正公務人員協會法第二個是修正公會法第三個是針對公務人員結社法另立新法第四是維持現行法制具體的改善工作條件到目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4915.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4922.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
都還沒有任何一個實現而我們已經換到第三個勞動部長了第一個勞動部部長王委員剛剛已經看了他拿錢去開演唱會第二個勞動部部長他提出來的檢討報告大家不買單我們現在換到第三個年輕有為的勞動部部長而且是首先在節目上支持消防人員的所以我想問這個就是勞動部提出來的四個建議您會從哪一個下手呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4942.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4968.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我剛才說我認為應該從現在社會上面爭議比較小的開始下手是哪一個就是關於公務人員的協商權跟結社權的保障這部分當然我們很願意優先的來跟考試院一起來做討論就勞動部本身我們當然願意來做討論這是在社會上比較沒有爭議的坦白說就剛才說確實現在的罷工權的部分是比較高度爭議的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4969.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4992.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
所以我們大概什麼時候可以知道您跟考試院討論出來的結果的報告因為這些相關的法規其實目前其實是考試院下面的權責所以我沒有辦法在這邊我們要去問考試院我沒有辦法在這邊替考試院回答一個時間上面的承諾那可能不好意思我不知道未來是不是還有朝委又會再把這一題拿回來我們衛黃委員會重新的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4994.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5021.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
但這召委召委的排案權我在行政部門的角度當然是只能尊重那再來因為本席也是婦產科醫師所以之前看到您有許許多多的提案其實是很為我們的孕婦產婦進行一個關懷而且友善的職場只可惜許許多的提案最後沒有走到三讀那我相信這個提案對你來說應該是很重要因為你上一屆也有提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5022.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5026.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這件也有提出來但是至今已經過了434天了您說啊您要把孕婦的產檢價賠產配偶的賠產價等等都全部改名為生產準備價然後不僅要放寬適用的範圍不限於讓勞工只能用在產檢或賠產價更可以用在參與產前的教育這一點您覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5046.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5073.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
其實針對對於孕婦尤其是跟性別平等相關的支持其實我這幾天其實在很短的上任時間我其實已經交代同仁這是我們接下來很重要的工作尤其是照顧不離職的部分所以我們會已經要求把相關綜合的法規因為有些時候包括賠償減價包括家庭照顧價包括等等等其實它有很多的細項我們其實已經請業務單位要做一個綜合性的評估所以我們大概什麼時候會看到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5074.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5077.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
所以您的意思是說你以前寫這個提案的時候可能後來想一想覺得要綜合性的評估會好一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5100.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5100.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
當然要綜合性的考慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5115.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5135.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
好那另外一個這也是您提出性別平等工作法第29條的修正最後非常可惜也沒有到三讀您認為說受僱者或受僱求職者如果受到的不是財產上損害的話這些損害來自於性騷擾那你主張可以把精神上的不利益影響納入法定最終應該支付的賠償金額來做計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5139.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5149.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我也想問因為剛剛您也是講了蠻長的你要再去找國際的法律看看如何修霸凌的精神損害等等的那這也是您以前的主張您也會覺得說您可以維持你的主張嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5156.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5178.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
這個主張的初衷當然是從勞工的立場出發所以這些個別的主張我覺得第一個一定會秉持這個事情的初衷那把它放到接下來我們機制化或法制化修法的計畫裡面我們會把這些初衷尤其是從勞工角度出發的初衷當然會盡量放進接下來的修法計畫裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5180.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5202.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
之前有發生過您的助理辱罵警察還有您針對這個霸凌案您其實很早就知道了但是您的說法是說您沒有行政職權所以當時沒有辦法處理那現在您已經有行政職權了所以我也想知道說這些東西您的期程是如何不然我們還要再寫臨時提案跟你來回 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5205.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5229.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
今天陳委員報告因為確實我上任的時間到目前其實大概10天在這10天裡面我不要想推脫時間不會啊你也可以說三個月啊你也可以說兩個月我沒有想要推脫給時間但是我說我必須跟業務單位針對因為這都是重大議題而且它其實涉及到的層面很廣我確實必須跟業務單位做更仔細的討論這部分我認為這是比較謹慎跟負責任的做法三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5231.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5232.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我已經跟大家強調這件事情了 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5250.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5275.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這個如果大家需要連結我昨天看的是非常感動啦因為您總質詢15分鐘全部都是在講同樣一件事我不知道您記不記得當時您拿這個經濟學的諾貝爾得主Claudia Golden你還用了她論文裡面許多的圖來告訴陳建仁院長說女性的勞參率有多低男女的薪資差異有多大然後問題到底在哪裡那我們播一下您點出問題在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5277.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5278.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這是很多年輕的爸爸媽媽共同在反映的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5297.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5320.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
所以我看了真的很好我把15分鐘全部都看完了畢竟我也是女性在職場工作的所以非常有感受啦各黨委員在這個會期都提出還有上個會期提出性別平等工作法還有相關的法規都有把親職假親職照顧假等等你剛剛一直在講到說沒有彈性太僵硬太難用你這件事情一直告訴誰這是很久以前了去年3月 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5321.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5327.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
對所以呢我也想知道說未來你的這個修法的期程還有進度是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5329.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5355.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
其實我在上任的第一天其實那天記者會上其實就跟大家說照顧不離職是我們工作的重點其實這個總諮詢的影片從頭到尾在講就是照顧不離職這個主題那目前確實相關的包括育嬰假等等等我到目前都認為還是有太過僵硬的問題應該要盡快的來做彈性化可是我要跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5356.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5369.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
成員報告因為這確實涉及到我們要跟不管是勞方的專業的意見要能夠進來包括性別團體的專業意見要進來也包括這裡面會跟要跟企業端來做一定程度的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5371.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5398.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我只能我跟你說這是絕對是我重點重的重點優先中的優先可是我們可能沒有辦法現在提供一個說到底什麼時間點的問題但這絕對是我們的重點最優先的事情所以我們今天問了一大堆問題全部都沒有任何的啟程啊你沒有辦法告訴我們可能再給我們再給我們一點時間我們來做跟業務單位來做更仔細的規劃之後再來問你做到哪裡做到哪裡開了哪些會 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5399.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5403.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
沒有問題這個是我曾經寫的臨時提案那當時勞動部部長是回應我說是否增訂較為彈性的輕直價就跟你剛剛講的一模一樣所以我也不知道換了一個人到底會不會有什麼改變實務上人需考量各行各業 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5416.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5417.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這當然會是任何的法規修訂我們必須去考慮的點但 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5437.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5439.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
所以你的意思是說您的任內 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5453.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5480.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
會有改變會有彈性價也會有留職就是留在職場讓女性留在職場的意願更高的這件事發生我當然高度期望這件事情我高非常高度期望這件事情所以我我們現在會用積極溝通現在確實在企業端裡面會有一些人表達有疑慮但我們不會就說你有疑慮我就讓事情停在這裡我們會積極跟他溝通一步一步的來跟他溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5481.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5489.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
你剛才說是在我任內我當然希望在這部分有突破那你有發現是哪些產業留職率最低你想先從哪些產業開始溝通嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5491.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5517.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
其實因為這些產業裡面也有不同大小的規模目前我們其實看到其實在一些比較人數比較大的規模裡面他們去做類似上面在人事上面的彈性的調動的難易度是比較低的其實您的總質詢講得非常好您大聲的告訴陳建仁院長說有33萬的女性沒有辦法留在職場對我是建議您這33萬你要先去找最多的是哪一個產業是 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5519.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5542.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
然後你從那個產業開始溝通所以我也非常非常願意因為我知道你在這方面也有你很專業的意見我也非常非常願意我們再跟你有更多的討論也請你再提供我們很多你自己的意見跟指教這部分我也很願意的最後我們來討論一下您的這份報告您上面有講到說您眼裡設置一個專門的霸凌專線我想問這個跟你既有的1955勞工申訴諮詢24小時不斷電的專線有什麼不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5547.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5554.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我跟委員報告齁因為在當然在我上任前當然我們在處理尤其是北分署的事件的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5557.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5578.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
呃大家對於申訴的機制其實有蠻多的不信任所以當時其實在這個非常的時期當時我就公佈了一個我自己專屬的可是你也只有給北分署啊是那你知道後面還有很多委員要來跟你講其他部門的報告我知道我知道因為相關的案件結果沒有人打到你手機全部打到我們委員辦公室啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5579.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5603.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
重點是我覺得重點是我們怎麼去處理一個不會讓大家覺得吃案的機制因為這中間當然他申訴的過程他會經過哪些路徑這當然最後是我們要處理所以表示你這個沒有啊因為不然他不會打到我們各委員的辦公室啊等一下就會有人問你我今天是沒時間問是對所以我說建立建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5604.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5605.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以你設好了沒還沒嚴寧 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5626.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5652.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
報告委員我們跟部長討論的結果是這樣子我們目前1955是所有的勞工申訴都在進來如果針對新一點健康部分包括霸凌部分我們會希望用我們新的資源包括預防重新中心這個資源在北東南東之前我曾經質詢過你很少人去質詢很難預約的所以我想說在這兩個月的討論那個資源可以挹注過去那勞工可以就近的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5652.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5680.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
尋求的電話資源跟心理諮商我想把那個資源做這樣的連結可是因為您的報告裡面也寫到說現在你也尋求外部的心理支持然後勞動部會幫忙買單所以這件事情你是要持續做還是只是最近暫時做以後還是回到他的部門跟委員報我們確實有一個在非常時期裡面我們現在必須先做的事情因為目前確實5%的同仁們的心理狀況是比較多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5682.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5682.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
所以您的意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5705.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5727.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
但未來當然要把他引導入把機制給優化好引導回引導回優化的機制上確實不能永遠都靠我的專屬電話我想這是我們很清楚是沒有我在講說這個外部心理支持是其實是我們認證比較有效的對因為如果你從內部去給大家同仁是不敢去說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5728.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5728.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
可是他剛說還是會最後會回去內部的欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5745.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5768.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
不是不是不是不是這意思我們會在至少在這段時間裡面針對北分署的這個不當管理的事件在這先就這個專屬的範範籌裡面先提供大家外部諮商資源的這樣子的支持大家去找我們這是單參考衛福部的做法在衛福部的做法他們大概在北北基宜相關的專業的諮商資源把這個網絡的連結給 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5772.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5775.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
之前我們要求你要有新的報告而且您說你現在也正在做這個新的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5794.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5821.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個新的報告你是如果你要推翻之前舊的調查報告其實舊的報告已經被謝宜蓉的律師拿來做法庭上的攻防是那之後你們要怎麼解決這件事情第一個我們會有新的報告然後在這個新的報告裡面我們希望能夠更從被壓迫的無性公務員的角度去還原到底他經歷了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5824.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5828.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
那希望這個還原出來能夠讓更多的事實能夠浮現出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5830.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5855.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
讓事實能夠呈現跟浮現出來能夠有個釐清我想對大家的理解或者不管是對於部內後續的處理包括法律的處理其實會有更清楚的依據所以我們的調查報告不會當然不會停留在第一份當時的那些內容尤其是大家會認為好像有過度去同情所以有一些有可能會推翻的新事證嗎?會有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5857.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5859.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那何沛山部長他的上一份報告他有寫到說 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5884.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5908.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他這個親身的員工也有一大部分是因為他認為業務分配不均必須重新檢討可是你今天這份報告完全沒有提到業務你有講到心理支持這些很好你有講到申訴管道這些是你要去改的那如果針對這些業務分配何佩珊部長覺得這也是他親身的原因之一的話您是不是應該也要把他列進報告呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5910.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5934.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那個跟跟委員報告齁確實現在在北分署的這事情上我們這個報告裡面著墨比較少因為這是要留待這個重啟調查的報告裡面來做公佈跟呈現所以針對北分署的內容我沒有意識到一些問題包括剛才講到說業務分配或人力結構上面問題我沒有意識到這個問題但這裡面關於北分署事件的一些細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5936.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5945.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
可能希望讓我們留到下禮拜我們公布的這個衝擊調查報告裡面來做呈現主席謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請陳昭之委員質詢謝謝主席有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5964.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5985.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
謝謝陳委員部長你剛剛在回答陳敬輝委員的時候你說警消組工會最有爭議的是什麼部分你說是罷工權我認為現在社會上面就是說看法不一的確實是針對罷工權的部分什麼叫爭議爭議就是大家看法有蠻多的不同你上任部長也很有爭議嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5987.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5998.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
什麼叫爭議要有證據的我的代孕法案八成支持國家民調支持六成支持兩成不反對我有八成的人支持結果貴黨還是說爭議啊所以什麼叫罷工權有爭議請部長要有科學證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6006.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6016.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
我說的爭議的問題我不是要否認我不是要說因為我知道對公會來說罷工權很重要爭議要有針對你同意嗎爭議要有針對你要有國家級民調嘛不是隨便網路上大家這樣說一個平台就解決啦爭議不是隨便說說的你現在是部長喔短短幾天你從這個監督別人變成被監督人請問部長你把這個角色轉換完成了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6032.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6045.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
我們當然希望盡快然後也在適應中那也很謝謝很多同仁的協助你公開說你不用被恭喜那我倒是這個態度給予肯定因為畢竟這是犧牲了一條人命之後的換來的一個結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6047.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6075.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
大家都很難過發生這樣的事情那當時勞動部的這個調查報告不僅沒有辦法釐清真相嘛這是火上加油嘛才會有今天的結果所以我向部長你要還給北屬北分屬同仁的家屬一個公道要還給全臺灣人民一個真相啊這是我們現在正在做的希望做的事情那本席提的問題請部長時問時答不要閃躲啊不要呼嚨我不要和氣可以嗎可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6081.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6091.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
這位分署長過去的長官說他沒有收到相關的檢舉這事情我沒有辦法接受連我自己因為我之前在衛環我都聽過相關的傳聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6094.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6097.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
你聽到這個鬼故事之後隔了多久隔了多久你向勞動部反映 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6125.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6150.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
呃跟委員報告其實這是我在媒體上面我們其實說明過第一個因為確實你知道我上一屆聽到又何時向勞動部反映你當時是立委啊其實是其實並不是今年二月現在大家一直說二月並不是二月沒有關係是隔了多久所以我沒有問你日期是隔了多久在應該是在去年隔了多久你聽到這個訊息然後隔了多久你的勞動部反映應該沒有多久但是具體的時間幾天幾個月幾週 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6154.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6155.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那當時是向勞動部反應?向誰? |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6179.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6199.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
因為這是發生在分署的事情所以勞動部是那你有沒有持續關心反應後就結束了有沒有持續關心我的個性都追到底你是比我更優秀的委員不是嗎更資深優秀的委員你有沒有持續關心我們在反應後做了這個提醒我好沒聽過你質詢的是我沒有在這題開記者會身為立委你不追究勞動部的責任嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6206.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6215.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
向委員報告確實我們那時候是有相關的聽聞但坦白說因為不是有陳情人來跟我陳情或者是我當時手上有具體的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6216.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6236.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
聽的時候就要去問啊所以當時我聽聞以後我當時的作用就像我剛才說我沒有當時沒有行政相關的管理權限我其實就跟勞動部做相關的反應部長如果當立委你都有追究權追究的責任你當時都沒有這樣做那我現在怎麼知道你當了你現在有行政權你會辦到底啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6237.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6256.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我現在當然要辦到底你公開跟大家說你要辦到底嗎當然時間 還有時間喔我們現在就在辦當然辦到底但事實上二月阿二月的時候阿那貴黨的這個議員當然就有提出來這個不但霸凌還貪污阿剛剛前面的委員都提到這些事情那不了了之嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6257.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6270.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這就是不了了之嘛那當時約談這個我很重視這個部分因為我想在前端去了解問題為什麼後面沒辦法阻止悲劇發生當時這個約談謝宜蓉的王安邦次長突然離職了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6273.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6299.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
何部長在上次質詢的時候答應我會重啟重啟二月陳情案的調查而且一周內完成那當時因為你還沒有就任部長可是你現在相任一周內你要蓋瓜承受請問調查的結果是什麼到底二月的陳情案調查的結果是什麼向陳委員說明目前就這個可能涉及到標案跟採購的部分就這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6300.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6304.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
其實檢調已經開始在查了二月只有標案跟採購案沒有霸凌案 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6305.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6334.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
就我知道當時就我目前理解的資訊是當時主要是針對這個是舊的東西已經做完了欸這不能修改不能偽造文書欸那個是什麼就什麼啊就我理解齁欸你看得到啊為什麼會就你理解你看得到啊我才有就我理解啊我說就我理解的資訊當時比較不是針對霸凌案的問題比較是針對一些經費使用的問題經費使用更嚴重啊刑法啊所以我說在經費使用的問題在標案或採購上面的誰在斥案到底誰在斥案 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6339.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6361.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
目前確實檢調針對尤其是標案或者是採購的問題下面目前正在偵辦那我們部裡面對於這些檢調偵辦我們會全力配合但是我今天前面兩集我也是關注這個部分這個也很重要我今天關注是那條人命就是說你說二月調查沒有提及霸凌案你確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6362.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6381.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
就我目前看到的資料裡面他主要是針對經費的使用的狀況你說沒有談霸凌案那到底就誰吃案啊許明春說是王安邦沒有往上呈報啊那林淑芬說謝宜蓉的靠山是許明春啊那到底真相是怎麼樣民進黨派新內鬥鬥出一條人命是這樣嗎社會能接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6385.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6408.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
我的意思是說部長我到今天從頭到尾跟你談說你知道有沒有辦法去做一些事二月有調查有沒有辦法做一些事很多事在前面可能有機會把這個悲劇擋住我今天的重點在這個地方啊所以二月份的報告我要有結果我要看到報告這個是當時他承諾那你要代官承受可以嗎我要看到二月份發生什麼事那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6410.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6414.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
剪掉歸剪掉,你內部有約談紀錄?剪掉針對標案跟採購的部分,因為目前剪掉正在調查,所以他們希望針對這個採購跟標案的部分,我們先暫緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6431.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6432.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
我們先讓這個台上代表發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6461.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6489.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們會把這樣這樣的聲音也一樣我們會把它帶回到行政部門裡面部長當時5月1號勞動節你上台了很享受那麼多的群眾吧這種經驗我也有過啊部長你答應啊你答應把這個聲音帶回行政部門跟立法院當時你是立法委員那你有嗎還是只有你進去這個勞工的聲音沒有走到勞動部結果是你自己走到勞動部當然有反應給行政部門你有反應嗎當然那我請教你喔期間假什麼時候還給勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6491.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6513.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
第一我知道很多委員跟勞工朋友都很關心工時問題那我當然支持勞工降低工時上面的負擔那行動行動那當然現在講到基金價也就是關於國定價值調整的問題現在這個國定價值調整的問題目前主管的法規是今天是節日實施辦法這個法規的主管是內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6515.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6541.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我當然會來反映勞工各種在這個議題上面的意見但確實現在關於國定假日調整的問題他的主管法規是在內政部我同意這個部分你可以有一些時間我以後再來再進一步瞭解當天你到五一勞動的那個場合的時候他們有提出了五大訴求跟16項主張你不用一一背出來你記得幾條 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6544.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6558.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
你會記嗎?稍微會記嗎?你會記嗎?我們可以再提醒我,對阿不然你去還是去啊?因為時間真的有點久,對阿但是你上去又聽他們講話阿當然當然當然阿不然你去做秀阿?阿隨便幾條都問不出來喔?阿部長,你這臨危秀秘是沒有秘樂旗的喔你沒有秘樂旗喔,你趕快上到,要趕快進入狀況捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6571.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6591.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
很多啊,要我們助理一份給部長環境部部長他在接受專訪的時候談到上任的時候他就發一個公文要主管如果下班要發LINE給員工要寫專案加班那只要下班發LINE就算加班那我想請教勞動部會比照嗎?你認同嗎?這是環境部啦,你認同嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6598.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6619.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
確實在一些國外的情境裡面會有像類似像這樣子的規定啦你可能要想一想對我當然覺得你可以跟他不同意但是我只是問你說你要不要比照呢那如果晚上8點你想想晚上8點署管發LINE就8點半他才看到啊那個加班時間算多久啊怎麼計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6621.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6632.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
我為什麼這樣問呢因為你自己六月也向卓院長提到啊輪班的公務員加班的餘數並計應該並計對你還記得好所以我希望你從立委轉換到部長不要忘記過去的主張不要帶頭壓榨基層這絕對不會忘記的好下一個影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6643.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6643.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6652.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6662.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
部長警察維持秩序你的助理需要這樣咆哮嗎?你的助理咆哮的意思是不輸給你在立法院執行的氣勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6683.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6707.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
委員我其實有在...你有把他帶到勞動部嗎?你有把他帶到勞動部去嗎?他沒有在我目前部長室辦公室裡面沒有在...所以你帶到勞動部去啦?沒有你沒有帶到勞動部我在確定沒有你有權利但是我要問你你有沒有把他帶到勞動部去?他沒有跟著我到勞動部沒有跟著你到勞動部去好沒有不然我真擔心勞動部又跑出了謝宜榮走了一個謝宜榮跑出了謝宜榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6711.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6726.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
總之過去做了事講的話我們都要負責任反走過必留下痕跡希望你善待勞工善待基層好好經營你現在負責的部門謝謝部長謝謝陳委員謝謝部長接下來我們請邱振金委員質詢我們在黃秀芳委員質詢完畢休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6741.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6743.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
主席好,我們有請我們的紅部長。部長好,現在還習慣嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6760.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6780.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
就像剛才委員說其實我知道我沒有蜜月期我想請問部長你11月25號上任對11月27號發的這個業務報告時程表上面就說資料在12月3號中午彙整給你所以你一直都知道12月4號以後才會排勞動這個勞動部的報告是嗎跟確認報告當然因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6788.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6790.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我們很清楚知道國會的監督是無縫接軌的 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6792.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6820.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以當時其實我部內同仁也讓我知道說應該要盡快的來跟我做業務報告的細節那因為上週真的是我們大部分的心力跟時間都花在處理大家非常高度的法令案上面你如果是12月2號排報告的話你要員工12月3號中午給你資料就不合理那你當初在6日要主管跟你匯報的時候就不是因為我們召委排案啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6822.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6838.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
是想要立威結果火燒到自己嗎我完全沒有要立威的我的意思是說你明知道你明知道是4號嘛4號才到勞動部來報告可是你叫他們要這個2號你跟他們講說2號要排報告3號給你資料那個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6844.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6859.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們原本是希望說第一個因為知道立法院會監督我的意思我知道你很想趕快把事情做好對所以你的做法不要牽扯到我們這個未還委員會的排案的這個議程嘛對不對不要把責任推到這邊來 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6860.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6879.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
對我沒有推卸所以當天禮拜四就像剛剛蘇委員有講其實禮拜四的時候我跟蘇委員確認禮拜一不會來排我到立法院以後我其實有跟蘇委員打電話有跟他致謝所以我們我們召委給你的時間是夠的嘛對不對他也沒有急著在禮拜一就排 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6880.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6905.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
我跟蘇趙緯有講說也謝謝他給我一個相對比較充裕的時間可以來做相關的準備我覺得部長你還是要注意一下就是你上行下效在樹立典範把連續上班合理化那我就用你自己在11月20號質詢勞動部的話來問你來請教你你要勞動部怎麼去做勞檢這個部分我請你們自己當然那再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6908.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6927.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
我想你們你今天會發生這種狀況你們的側翼你們的網軍要多溝通一下不要到處放火讓你好好做事情可以嗎因為這個事情都是他們先燒出來我們才會有這麼多人去注意這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6929.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6950.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
就是在這個過程的溝通上面我說我是謝謝書委員有給我多一點的時間來去做相關的準備的那卓榮泰院長給你的第一個任務是重新調查謝玉榮的案子吧對那卓院長說給你一周調查那在11月20號我們就要求勞動部針對謝玉榮的案子兩周內要給出新的調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6952.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6960.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
可是就在期限到昨天嘛可是你昨天給我們委員的這份報告裡面就是調查報告還沒完成無可奉告 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6962.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6988.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
如果你是還是立委的時候你覺得你這樣你可以接受嗎跟邱委員報告齁在重啟調查的方面其實我們上週我在我一上任之後其實就我們就在處理重啟這個調查小組的準備工作尤其是我們也檢討上一份報告為什麼引起社會高度的爭議所以你是那這個禮拜目前目前到甚至到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6989.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7015.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
目前創意調查報告也正在訪談也增加訪談的對象那我們希望能夠把它做得更周延所以目前會在下週所以你是覺得卓院長給你時間太短了是這樣嗎我們有一直持續有跟行政院溝通所以這個時間點行政院也知道目前也同意的那北分署的事件不單只是霸凌那還有我們就業安定基金的挪用謝宜榮送禮請客的這個錢那我們政風查得怎麼樣我們政風是不是有來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7019.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7036.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
跟確認說明目前是針對經費的使用包括採購跟標案的問題現在檢調因為報告裡面都沒說啊現在這個檢調是有在已經在開始在查那我們會全力的配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7037.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7059.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
所以所以不是說謝宜龍手上還有黑資料要報讓你們不敢查當然不是我們沒有我們完全你的沒有什麼好我不知道謝宜龍會說什麼不能查也不能辦會不會這樣子我們全我們當然完全不會考慮現在謝宜龍分署長現在對外講的這些話我們其實就是在法治的這個報告這禮拜五可以給嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7060.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7070.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
下禮拜我們會重啟調查報告應該會在下禮拜公布出來禮拜幾跟大家說明我希望盡快可是因為現在我們正在我們正在訪談中你在節目上說未完委員會就 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7077.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7105.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
聽說你之前在節目上就有提到說聽說北分署的鬼故事很多你還很委屈跟大家說你不是吃案你是因為沒有行政權只能建議去了解我只能說民進黨的不分區真的很好當也枉費你當了立法委員這部分你沒有繼續追下去真的是非常遺憾才會造成今天這樣的一個事情那麼現在你是部長了你之前說你收到很多基層跟你反應 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7107.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7130.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這個勞發署北分署有打假卡的問題現在怎麼解決這部分分兩個部分第一個事情是確實在我們勞動部下會有一些比較是越僱人員他是適用勞基法的我們會要求絕對按照勞基法不能夠違法加班上面該怎麼記就怎麼記第二個是針對公務人員的正式公務人員的部分確實還有一個加班上限我也已經要求我們相關的主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7132.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7133.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那你說勞動部高層也很多像謝宜龍這樣的問題那你都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7151.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7156.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
哪些人有這種狀況?勞動部高層有很多像謝宜龍這樣的一個問題那你都知道是誰?誰有這種狀況?我之前看網路上講的嘛還是查到哪裡就可以說到哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7170.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7198.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我應該沒有說勞動部的高層也很多像憲勇這樣問題但是我要說的是只要有涉及到不法或涉及到問題的我們絕對都會面對問題好那再來我們陳市長代理署長說外界說陳義隆辦公室花的145萬元那其實只用了救安基金的39000元那我在這邊講的是不管用了多少救安基金是可以這樣用的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7199.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7226.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
跟邱委員報告我這邊其實也謝謝你有一個時間讓我說明目前現在當然在外界所謂說的145萬其實在144.6萬這部分的這個綠美化新創本部的這個綠美化工作確實我們經過確認以後他不包括謝永芬署長的自己的辦公室他比較主要是一些公共空間的綠美化但是我要說的是就我們查上去現在大家所謂爭議的那些軌道燈 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7228.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7252.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
這些軌道燈的確是用小額採購的方式是用勞發基金就按基金來支付的我認為這是非常非常不妥當的所以不能接受的事情這不是金額大小的問題你們都用小額採購那是不是為了規避上網招標的這個金額然後這樣比較好給你們的可以比較容易照顧到你們自己的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7254.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7262.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
謝芬署長他在他辦公室裡面裝了軌道燈為了去照他的職務這件事情我是很不能接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7263.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7290.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
用小額採購不管是三萬塊還是三十萬目前查起來大概三萬九千塊看起來金額好像不大但也用到了救安基金的錢這也是我們不能接受的所以我希望部長你既然你今天在這邊這樣講希望你能夠把這件事情做一個很好的一個處理當然該送檢調該送政風你都不要手辣檢調現在已經在相關的查查了我們絕對全力配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7290.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7295.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那我在想就是就案基金餘額大概429億那勞動部辦過這個演唱會花了356萬裝修會議室2250萬修外牆2699萬買咖啡豆22.8萬清垃圾308萬蓋警衛室758萬都可以這樣用嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7313.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7336.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
跟委員說明我其實上週其實就要求專案基金致用的檢討了我們確實發現裡面有部分的項目是不合宜的會讓社會觀感不好的但是也並不是所有現在媒體上面列出來所有的項目都是有問題我想也讓我也知道但是確實裡面是有部分的項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7337.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7349.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我們是非常不合理的你現在開始查了嗎開始查從哪裡開始查從許民村部長還是在之前我們沒有分從什麼地方只要有問題我們就查那什麼時候會有結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7354.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7373.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
現在我們的做法會是當然個案如果不合一的項目我們希望能夠做個案的停損就機制面我們必須把機制面給強化所以現在也邀集一些這方面的專家的外部專家的委員我們要把機制如果還有疏漏的地方這個把關機制有疏漏的地方要補上 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7374.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7400.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
因為我們現在正在做這件事情 大家都覺得是金庫其他部會都想要挖來挖你們這邊的錢當初林佳龍部長當交通部長的時候他就有提到就業安基金要撥3億來提升旅行業者的數位能力那你們現在只要 我知道你們現在要找第三方外部的專家來檢討強化就業安定基金的用途 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7405.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7414.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
我覺得在霸凌這個霸凌案的時候用利益良善來形容謝宜龍你現在要找的第三方會不會變成到時候說變成利益良善圖利共犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7418.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7442.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
外部專家當然都會有他的專業所謂的外部是在編制以外嘛對不對對那但是還是你們的人啊對不對我希望部長你這個部分啊你一定要客觀一點把這事情做好希望能夠避免這樣的事情發生可以嗎因為你只要客觀還要專業就會碰到局系的人那賴清德有給你總統有給你上房保鮮嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7445.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7464.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
有嗎我想從行政院當時邀請我到我知道現在社會大眾對我上任的期待都是要改革這段時間包括有很多基層的員工反映給我們的資訊也是希望我改革所以改革是不可能不走的路 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7465.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7484.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這跟誰交代我沒有關係因為時間的問題我最後再問你就是說你在2023年10月1號就說你會支持消防員組工會也會支持有罷工權那現在你是勞動部長你什麼時候要修法剛剛其實有跟其他委員報告過其實關於這個公務員組工會的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7489.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7494.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
的確現在主要的法規權者看法規權者看起來是在勞權團體也恢復齊天的價那當時你也說你會轉達我想這些問題都是你之前講過的話我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7504.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7532.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
你能夠記得你之前講過的話然後好好的來處理我剛剛講說要時間你是已經講說要時間但我不認為兩個月三個月但是我希望你盡快至少也不能拖到半年因為你是部長你有權力我覺得你應該要好好的把你說過的話把它落實確實我現在是勞動部長所以關於公務員組公會的議題裡面比方說比較沒有爭議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7534.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7554.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
接受權跟協商權這部分這比較沒有爭議的部分比較共識的部分但我們怎麼全力來跟考試院一起來協助來給大家保障但就像我在這份在這個在這個訪問裡面其實就講到確實現在罷工權的部分社會上面是比較高度爭議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7556.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7575.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
那我希望你部長你趕快把這事情釐清該處理的問題當然要探討的問題會發生的狀況也會有很多希望你把它想清楚把它做好來不要到時候倉促的我也不希望你們倉促推這種法案出來但我希望你們做得完善一點好不好謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長那接續我們請廖偉祥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7591.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7592.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
謝主席：有請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7595.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7625.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
部長這個去年啊救安基金其實爆出爭議的用3000萬補助高雄市政府辦理活動那我也查到當然後來這是被擋下來了依照會議記錄在前年底的11月23號他有召開一個臨時會議在會中有委員用臨時動議的提案方式就讓這個案子過了那隔年3月1日呢第105次的救安基金的管理會議才又由這個就業平等司提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7626.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7642.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
說要在這個救援基金中提升這個勞工勞工福祉內去調整內容那所需經費4000萬那如果不足的話再以這個決算的方式辦理那部長這個是不是就是先上車後補票先射箭後花吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7645.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7672.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
就我們目前業務單位回報說這個25淑女的事件當時的這個案子後來高雄市政府已經主動撤回了對主動撤回嘛但是這個是不是在整個流程整個程序上非常有爭議你認為這個是不是有爭議的事情我已經找出兩次的會議紀錄就舊安基金的把關機制其實我們現在已經開始檢討了部長我想請問一下我也認為這裡面是有一些機制需要強化的狀況把關機不管是事前或事後 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7673.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7687.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
是部長那我想請問一下那個在這個運用辦法裡面你知道救安基金有哪一些用途嗎?這個移工相關的管理的需求然後提升促進國民就業提升勞動福祉 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7688.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7703.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
好,它總共有12條,它總共有12條。在舊府法裡面是3個。對,但是在這個辦法裡面,113年的3月11號的修正日期的這個辦法裡面,就案基金的收支保管及運用辦法它總共有12條。是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7704.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7733.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
第一個辦理加強實施職業訓練阿等等的總共12條第12條的部分呢就是其他有關支出我想請問其他有關支出的內涵是什麼可以辦演唱會嗎可以買咖啡嗎還是第二可以嗎跟委員報告這個部分所謂的相關一定是跟前面11款有相關的是很好這個大法官是這樣解釋沒有錯所以可以嗎我剛問這些這些不合理的用法你認為可以嗎部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7735.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7758.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
我們在檢視下來確實覺得有部分的項目是不合理的應該是非常不合理吧當然完全是在這個法之外了吧所以我其實已經要求已經我們已經要求這部分的檢討了所以剛剛這個講得很好其實12款其實這12條應該分兩個層次嘛第一個是不是符合就業安定目的第二個如果符合的情況之下他的手段跟方法是不是適當 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7760.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7786.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那其他有關之處其實過去大法官有解釋大法官有解釋嘛就是認為其他用途並不是空白支票必須跟前面11項有這個各款相當這是大法官的見解沒錯嘛對那但是現在看起來這個救安基金就變成所謂勞動部的小金庫甚至是民進黨派系的小金庫我想問一下部長有幾個訴求您可以承諾在3個月內徹查這5年內救安基金的使用用途嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7787.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7795.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
我們會來徹查然後可不可以公所以您可以三個月內可以公開就是徹查之後然後公開每一筆支出明細嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7797.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7825.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
呃先讓委員知道其實現在救安基金的使用的狀況目前檢調也在查好那第二個那我們會全力配合所以追究相關人士的責任該送證封送證封該送檢調該送法辦的絕不寬帶您會因為到底對於他有沒有違法的問題這恐怕不是勞動部可以自己說的算的這部分確實檢調在查所以沒錯啊我的訴求也很明確當然跟你沒有關係如果有明確我只是說你的態度是不是可以做到這麼公正無私啊該做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7825.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7847.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
就該做不可以寬戴再來就是修法強化救援機制的監督機制避免再被濫用你剛剛有說要檢討那這個部分大概什麼時候你有第三點剛剛其實前面有委員問其實救援基金的監督官機制的強化我們希望在一個月內可以有相關提出相關的這個方案出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7848.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7877.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
是不是可以向全國勞工道歉並提出這個道歉的部分然後具體方案你說一個月內嘛但是我覺得勞動部是不是應該道歉這個就業安定基金已完全的破壞了國人對於國家的信任前幾天才接到有人說他的母親因為因為有身體的需求他去聘僱了外勞那他每個月繳2000塊就業安定基金原來是這樣被政府濫用的所以身為剛上任的部長是不是應該也概括承受向全國勞工朋友道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7880.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7907.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我現在是勞動部部長我當然該負的責任我當然必須擔起該負的責任那剛剛委員說到說要送政風也好送檢調也好只要有具體的事證再釐清有具體的事證我們絕對不會護短好 但是我希望你應該要代表我們現在的政府真的向全國的勞工朋友和這些雇主們道歉因為這個已經嚴重破壞國家的信任對人民的信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7908.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7928.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
這部分部長你怎麼看?我上任以後的工作勞動部現在當然是在一個很艱困內外很艱困的時刻我的工作就是第一個要把內部安頓好然後能夠重新取得社會大眾對勞動部的信任一級就是說你不願意道歉但是你說你要用行動去證明是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7930.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7958.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這是我的工作所以你不願意為現在過去勞動部造成的這些問題而向國人道歉我的工作是面對問題跟解決問題好 部長何沛山這個前部長下台前曾經與立法院兩週內綱全案重新調查提出一個新的報告那現在還沒有出爐請問什麼時候可以給國人一個滿意的答案目前重新調查重啟調查的報告會在下週公開跟大家說明下週幾我也希望盡快 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7959.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7984.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
但確實因為我們現在正在增加一些約訪的對象所以你可能說下週五以前給是不是下週五我當然希望更儘快更早一點所以最晚是下週五以前對一定是就是在下週那現在新的調查報告有誰擔任召集人有我自己好我會負最對召集人現在就是我部長在這個多事之秋你臨危受命那 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7985.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8001.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
包含剛提到不管是霸凌或是不當挪用經費啊要查水落石出那你也說很積極的要加速瞭解業務所以召集了部會人員週末向你業務簡報希望你可以更快的融入這個角色那這個內部事項你也交代過應該低調處理卻被 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8004.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8027.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
公務人員對於媒體披露出來讓大眾知道那也引來了這個經過過勞造成人員輕生處理方式居然還是繼續加班研究解決方案那這些被人家指責是要滑天下之大機我想問部長對這個出發點是想要加快瞭解業務那利益良善也不為過但是卻因為遭到批評你覺得部長你覺得會委屈嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8029.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8057.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
其實在確實當時同仁們在我們在排這個報告的會議的時候當時是因為我在週間幾乎已經都排不出時間了所以當時其實才不得不排到週末但後來就是跟當時跟蘇昭偉蘇興泉昭偉其實有確認也跟他溝通也謝謝他在我們來未還報告的時間確認是禮拜三以後我們也多一點的時間所以後來我就把 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8058.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8086.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
這個在週末的會議給取消所以聽起來是覺得有點委屈但是後來也解決了沒有我其實是我也謝謝蘇英璇召委的體諒這部分我想當時我打電話跟蘇召委其實也表達這個事情那後來其實有幾位基層同仁來提醒確實大家在這一從11月初到現在因為這個霸凌北分署的事件其實大家的家長我只想你是不是宣示一下未來是不是都能夠合理分配工作不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8087.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8097.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
不要再讓過勞的事情不要隨意加班這樣子我們當然希望能夠在工作的排程上面來去檢討避免不必要的加班好那關於謝怡龍分署長據媒體報導你也承認說你二月的時候也就是悲劇發生的八個月前你就知道這個事情存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8109.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8125.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
那謝分署長的土皇帝的作為也略有所聞那時候你身為監督行政機關的立法委員為什麼沒有積極負起相關的責任你難道不知道也有可能是因為你沒有積極處理才導致這個悲劇發生你覺得你是不是也要負起一些責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8127.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8144.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
跟委員說明其實這是並不是二月啦其實這是在去年所以更早之前其實是在去年去年其實當時我還在衛環委員會裡面那我們有對於謝分署長的作風有聽聞但並不是針對無姓公務員的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8145.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8163.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
當時我也不認識吳興公務員是謝分署長在他的分署內相關的作風我沒有聽聞可是因為其實並不是有具體的陳情人來跟我陳情那我手上也並沒有具體的證據所以在我當時聽聞的狀況下面當然先跟勞動部做反應跟提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8164.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8190.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
所以這件事情就是有兩件事要做嘛對不對部長你就是要積極追查另外一個應該要請相關的單位要認真處理對嗎這是一定的對不對但是又有媒體人爆料說打去政風處關心此案卻回嗆說你可能沒有當過公務人員所以你並不了解我們部門執掌的狀況那這個意思就很明顯嘛就是說啊你不懂啊你不要管啊以及這不是我們單位的事情我們政風不管很合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8191.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8211.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
請問部長這個霸凌到底屬不屬於政風該管的事還是因為也沒有人真正可以管所以就從政府不管所以整個勞動部就可以從根爛起開始挪用各種公款買禮物裝修違法亂計請問一下如果政風單位的心態是如此的話那這個事情要怎麼樣好好調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8212.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8233.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
要怎麼樣要怎麼樣好好的整頓部長相關的霸凌案或者是這些不法侵害的案件當然我們會請政風參與政風當然會參與那我覺得相關在這個在溝通的過程裡面也許有一些語氣大家有一些彼此理解上面我覺得可以做的更好的地方當然我們會來要求對 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8235.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8252.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
部長 如果你去詢問這些單位啊不管是這些人事室啊 政風室啊他可能表面上也不敢這樣跟你講啦就是剛剛那種態度但內心中他是不是會這樣想你會不會覺得紅立委轉成部長他會不會覺得說你一樣沒幹過公務員什麼都不懂你覺得有沒有可能呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8253.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8280.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
我想我到現在在做勞動部這個新的工作其實我很簡單在這個當下勞動部很艱困的當下其實我們就是全力以赴那我很希望的事情就是為其實跟部內的同仁說我們現在就是要重新的凝聚才能夠讓社會信任那我們會一步一步來做部長所以我其實想要問的就是說你覺得你現在上任部長你的新位子你覺得要磨合多久時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8282.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8303.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
其實我想立法院不會給我蜜月期啊所以你覺得你立刻就可以非常的上手對嗎我不敢講說叫做非常上手但是就我來說的話我當然要盡量的減短這中間我熟悉包括熟悉業務的過程因為外界包括現在大家對於霸凌案的高度的關切其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8304.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8328.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
不會給我太多的時間這我非常清楚的是啊部長我也是正面的期許雖然質詢台的左右兩邊兌換只有7步的距離可是事實上你接下來要面臨的是很多很多的挑戰包含你過去講過的話不只是現在的短期內處理霸凌案長期怎麼改善整個的整個的這個文化甚至是這些就業安定基金甚至未來移工問題那個年金問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8332.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8344.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這都是你接下來要面對的喔好那我想要請問一下其實你剛剛本來有報告裡面好像有說到其實國際上沒有其他的國家有相關的這個霸凌的法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8346.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8372.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
是嗎應該是說目前我們看到一些國家他比較是針對職權霸凌他比較是針對職權霸凌就是比較是上對下的部分那就我得到訊息但我們可以再做確認就是針對專法的部分事實上是不是可以參考韓國的職場反霸凌法他們在2019年的時候好像有通過這個職場霸凌禁止法或者職場內禁止欺凌法那裡面有說過 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8373.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8388.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
職場中禁止利用地位或關係優勢給其他勞工帶來身體或精神上的痛苦違法的行為人可能有刑責、刑法或行政法的責任具體來說具體是被認為職場霸凌的行為有威脅、暴行、惡言 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8391.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8391.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
請同仁在國際上面的案例 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8408.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8425.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
國內可能會有一些法院相關的判例進行進一步的修正因為這會是現在法令防治法制法裡面的關鍵會是在這個地方所以我請同仁去做一輪的修正那我目前看到確實國際上面會有比較多他是針對職權罷就上對下的部分但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8426.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8431.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
所以部長你認為大概有多少時間可以給一個報告或是修法立法的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8449.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8462.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
立法的方向我們當然現在我們現在是很密切的在辦理中啦齁那我我真的是希望盡快啦就是因為但是因為這個法案的內容包括他的路徑到底是要修職職安法還是專章還是專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8465.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8489.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
這裏面不同的路徑其實我們也請這個相關的學者專家正在那我想一下因為通常做事你總是要有一個期程那你自己心裏面你預計你比較希望你多久時間內因為你剛好說一直不斷的研議再研議那到底要研議多久很會研議那研議到什麼時候會給大家一個比較好的改革方向包含你的救安基金也是一樣因為目前聽起來沒有時程就會是空話 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8490.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8518.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我自己希望是在如果要在下個會期至少在修法的規劃上有一個比較清楚的路徑下個會期那救安基金的部分呢救安基金的部分我想剛剛說關於把關的機制的強化的這個方案剛才跟有跟文說大概一個月內我們希望一個月內就會有方案好那我們期待到時候真的可以出來一個讓人家滿意的機制改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8519.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8542.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那之前部長你也曾經在臉書發言 砲轟交通部開放客運有條件的開放這個上期休一甚至有機會連上十天 當初你是這麼說這個只要再有一個連開七天以上疲勞駕駛而出人命的案子交通部應該就會被燒了吧但是你在這篇貼文後阿羅哈客運發生了疲勞駕駛三死十三傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8544.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8571.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
運安會也將發布多起物流業的疲勞駕駛車會的報告甚至昨天北市公車長期疲勞駕駛追撞4台機車那這樣子照您的說法交通部這樣惡搞勞基法是不是至少要被火燒好幾回那前部長許明春也表示說不排除廢止這個放寬許可那對於對此這個部長你會主張直接廢止嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8572.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8580.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
嗯?廢紙哪一個部分?就是不排除這個之前許明春有表示過不排除廢紙放寬許可就是剛剛前面講的這個目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8584.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8604.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
跟委員報告目前的話客運的只有允許他在那個輸運的期間因為包括春節期間輸運期間可以有一些例外的一些放寬氣修憶的部分但是都也只在限於輸運期間所以我意思是說這個這就是這樣說部長你的發文嗎就是也是針對這件事嗎那你覺得這個事情你要 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8605.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8605.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
當然謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8634.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8642.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
好 謝謝令委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請黃秀芳委員質詢 召委喔 遵守時間喔 不是威脅我的點 謝謝主席 我們請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8660.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8686.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
謝謝黃委員部長部長確實是辛苦了啦在短短幾天內然後這個從委員然後變成部長從一個質詢部長的一個角色轉換變成被質詢者那我想請教就是說部長你在11月25號上任之後到現在那你也有到北分署去關心過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8687.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8695.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那我想請教就是說其實可以感受到目前勞動部除了部長底下還一位次長那 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8698.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8698.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
謝謝黃委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8724.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8751.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
其實確實現在勞動部目前三位次長裡面目前只有一位長次兩位正式是全缺所以我們現在也一直在跟行政院在討論相關適合的人選那也希望這個人選確定以後就趕快能夠就任因為我也很需要我們把我們這個主管的陣容給補齊因為我們的業務真的非常的龐雜那現在面對到的挑戰也非常大是變成說大家要找人然後發現好像勞動部現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8753.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8776.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
找不到人而且我覺得勞動部的這個業務真的非常的繁雜你掌管這個一千多萬勞工部長是大家長所以我想請教就是說在這個一個這將近這個一個月當中從北分署然後勞動部發生的這些事情那到最近我們看到台灣在 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8776.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8776.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8796.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8818.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
要讓大家有一個期許要怎麼樣讓這個所有的這個工作同仁的士氣提升另外我們該修的法該補強的我們要去補強所以我現在想請教就是說部長你在上禮拜大家很關心就是說你為了想要趕快儘早融入這個勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8819.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8820.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
未來要怎麼去避免這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8836.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8857.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
那另外就是說其實勞動部現在有很多業務尤其是現在是預算的會期那有很多可能這個工作或者是垂尋的部分很多都是來自立法院那你要怎麼樣讓我們的這個工作同仁不要在晚上然後收到你的指令或者是收到你的Line |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8858.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8860.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我自己非常清楚現在外界包括立法院會對我們高度的檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8881.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8898.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那甚至因為這幾個爭議的案件大家會對我們怎麼處置會有一些時程上面的期待這我非常非常清楚但同時我們確實也有另外一端是要把勞動部裡面的工作的文化弄得更健康所以在這兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8900.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8923.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
在這兩個目的上面確實我們現在去取得想辦法去取得平衡所以至少我希望至少在我們在工作排程上面要去怎麼做一些檢討讓這個我們勞動部員工這個不必要的加班能夠盡量的來減少這事情是也是我們當然現在需要的工作那週末當時週末的這個會議的問題其實後來勞動部的基層也有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8928.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8939.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
來提醒我很謝謝勞動部的基層願意來提醒我提醒我說確實大家正在這個一個多月一個一個月左右的時間因為15%的這個事件所以大家其實真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8940.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8941.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我希望說勞動部是我們所有勞工的榜樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8966.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8989.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
盡量不要在晚上傳LINE說要交辦工作因為現在真的是晚上或者是假日隨時可能都會收到老闆的LINE或者是交辦的工作那我們希望說勞動部你應該要以身作則來處理這件事情另外我想請教就是說有關北分署的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8990.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9009.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
這件事那當然就是說一開始可能在2月份可能次長王次長有處理有約談那後來大家會覺得說怎麼石沉大海不了了之那像這樣子你上來之後有沒有針對這個職場霸凌的這個部分有一個比較正常的一個管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9011.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9027.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
好跟黃委員說明確實現在在我已上任之後因為我知道這是一個非常時期很多事情進行的很急所以我先提供我個人的電話跟email但這不是一個我認為這不是一個長久之計這不是長久之計 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9030.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9053.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
那我們當然現在在署裡面過去既有的就是關於這個我們衛生與安全的防護要點跟小組的工作但我們現在在檢視後也發現其實恐怕是需要針對職場霸凌另外拉出來做一個專責的處理所以這部分我們都在進行中所以上個禮拜其實我就有交代我們的法治單位趕快針對我們這個專責化的職場霸凌的機制趕快來去做規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9059.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9077.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
來去做規劃包括這個趕快讓他上路就不用再猶豫了是好那我們目前就是只有這個職業安全衛生法其中的這個比較模糊然後就是職場霸凌可能就是這個定義可能也是非常的模糊對模糊所以我們也希望就是說未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9079.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9100.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
是不是要更明確或者是重新來審視這些條文然後來做一個檢討或是做一些研議我們希望說透過今天的這件事情那未來不要再發生那也要有一個很暢通的一個申訴的管道而不是這個勞工申訴之後或者是你們的員工申訴完之後結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9103.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9114.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
主管反而跟這個北分署的分署長講然後就又把這個陳情人又叫去我覺得未來不可以有再有類似的這樣的一個情形發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9116.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9132.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
現在確實在這個安全與衛生防護小組裡面其實相關的程序面不夠明確所以未來在處理相關事情的程序上必須明文化那也包括其實他的保密的狀況其實應該也要有所規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9133.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9159.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
那尤其是處理申訴處理的成員我們也希望要讓他專業要有更多專業那這些相關的案件進去以後其實後續有一個監督追蹤的機制避免不會吃案這些事情都是我們來去調整這個至少是勞動部內部的處理機制我們幾個重要的方向跟要點但更大的部分確實涉及到一般職場的部分那就涉及到可能接下來的法制化的修法的工作這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9160.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9189.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
其實不只只有勞動部所有的公務人員其他的所有的這個公務體系應該也存在類似這樣的一個狀況所以我覺得應該也是要一併一併去檢討當然勞動部你就是處理勞動部的事情那未來可能就是考試院或者是這個其他的這個行政單位要來去處理的那如果說針對一般勞工的話針對一般勞工的話我覺得要趕快把這個機制趕快把它建立起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9190.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9209.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
剛剛黃委員講到說關於公務員的部分確實現在他的主要的權責是在考試院但是我們勞動部部分我們很願意跟考試院一起來討論甚至提供我們在這上面比較專業的意見這部分我們很願意來參與那勞工的部分這個部分應該要趕快再把它健全起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9209.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9229.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
這事情就是我一般勞工跟一般職場部分這就是在我們全球之下我們絕對我們不會迴避的對好那確實是辛苦了短短幾天那我我們也對你的期待也非常的高希望能夠趕快讓我們這個勞動部趕快進入正常的這個軌道好不好好謝謝黃委員好謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝部長我們現在休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9855.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9866.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
好我們現在繼續開會那跟大家報告我們等一下蘇清泉委員執行完畢後就處理臨時提案好我們現在請圖謙熙委員執行好謝謝主席那謝謝請我們部長謝謝圖委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9882.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9901.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好部長你好那個11月25號正式接下部長這一職嘛那好像11月26號你第一個行程就是去拜訪我們的北分署對不對是那去北分署以後那當然也甚至好像在媒體也有看到也去開箱視察了我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9902.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9921.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
前分署長謝宜榮的辦公室那進去看以後是不是也確定他這個小小的辦公室也花了144.6萬元是不是確實有這件事情跟突然說明其實我有查現在當然在媒體上面講到新莊本部的那個所謂144.6萬這一個綠美化的標案它的範疇其實並不包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9928.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9953.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
謝勇分署長的辦公室他主要是針對外面的一些公共空間但是我要強調說我確實去看了謝勇的謝勇前分署長的辦公室我進去看以後確實我覺得有很多部分是很過當的那尤其現在大家關注到比方說裝的這個軌道燈這很多盞的軌道燈那這個軌道燈當然他看起來在辦公室裡面他就是專門去照他那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9956.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9983.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
那我也查過了的確這些軌道燈他是用小額採購的方式是用救安基金支付所以不管他金額大或小這部分都是非常非常不妥當當然啦我懂部長講的意思啦那確實他這個辦公室是確實花了一百多萬我不是這個意思那當然有些是什麼需要用到的什麼會議室啊什麼等等並不是所有這一百多萬全部用他的辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9986.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10006.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
我們可以來討論責任的問題,但是在事實面上面,目前這一百多萬主要是針對外面的公共空間。謝永芬署長他自己在內部的狀況,包括我們已經查過他的這些職務的購買,目前是他自己用他的錢購買的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10009.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10009.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
那當然齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10036.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10056.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
上任之後去除了看過我們前前分署長辦公室那現在部長針對自己這個辦公室我們當時我們林淑芬委員有講我們部長辦公室當初許明春我們前部長說他裡面有廚房有流理台然後可以開火那是不是真的有這樣子的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10057.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10075.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我其實也是上禮拜一第一次看到大家所謂說的那個空間然後我其實看了以後大概他其實是我覺得他比較像是一個茶水間那那個茶水間的使用並不是我可以使用其實是部長室裡面大概 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10077.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10094.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
就是我幾乎所有部長室裡面的工作人員都可以使用的空間並不是專屬因為我確實我自己有一間我自己有一間可是這個所謂的茶水間並不是在我自己的那個空間裡面但是就是整體部長的辦公室裡面當然你的意思說其他同仁也可以使用當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10094.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10114.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
所以確定就是因素分委員講的沒有錯確實這整個部長辦公室裡面確實是有個小廚房有流離台可以煮水啊什麼之類的嗎其實他他他比較真的像是一個茶水他也沒有瓦斯爐就是其實沒有你想像的那個所謂廚房裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10116.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10130.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
就廚房大概都會有瓦斯爐嘛對不對所以原則上聯儲分委員講的是沒有錯啦就是有一個 確實有理台之類的然後茶水間之類的那你說有一個可以洗碗的地方茶水間嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10131.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10157.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
那可不可以煮東西可不可以開火就是它沒有瓦斯爐但是它有一個我去看的時候像電磁爐什麼之類的有一個微波爐微波爐對但是並不是大家所謂的廚房啦因為廚房真的都要你說都要有像瓦斯爐抽油煙機這種東西是大家可能想像的廚房所以所以部長你講但是重點就是有像茶水煎之類的這個是這是有的設備嘛這是有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10157.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10170.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
那可是因為那時候我們針對這個事情我們也想了解說欸林淑芬委員講的到底是不是真的那我們也有向勞動部所知針對松江路至青大樓12樓針對我們看這個圖資可是裡面圖資上面並沒有這些構造還是說給那個圖資是不正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10182.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10206.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
因為我們有索取到圖資圖資裡面並沒有說你講的什麼茶水間什麼之類這個圖資還是那個資料是錯的還是我們許部長是後面自己又再發包才去做的東西報告委員我們給委員的資料裡面確實是有茶水間我們有把這個圖都有畫出來提供給委員這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10207.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10230.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以你講的茶水間就在這上面所以並不是林淑芬委員講的什麼廚房開火之類這樣子的東西對 圖紙上面的茶水間就是剛剛部長講的就是很簡單的那個所以今天講的重點就是說你們說林淑芬委員講的其實大家有點超過想像是不是第一個是我們其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10232.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10260.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
林委員當然講的到底是前後到底是什麼什麼時候其實我我坦白說我不是那麼親但是我只能就說就就實際的狀況面來讓大家知道我也是禮拜一的時候去然後看到其實是看到就是一個大概是一個茶水間那裡面有微波爐有有水槽那裡面有但你你如果需要裝水的話你可以有飲飲水機部長我覺得針對這一部分當然林署分委員講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10261.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10276.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
好那針對說你的你的釐清部分是說是茶水間啊但是其實我們從媒體上我們聽到的他是說有廚房有流體台而且可以開火甚至甚至可以在裡面暢飲 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10278.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10304.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我相信這個媒體上面有這樣講那我是說針對這一部分為什麼這個事情發生了10天了也沒有聽我們勞動部針對這一部分做出一些事實的澄清你們像一些勞動部有一些年金的什麼短語音你們說那是假訊息你說馬上大張旗鼓又做突變又澄清為什麼這個事情你們到現在都沒有講清楚而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10304.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10323.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我們所了解的 林子芬委員講的他是說有流理台有廚房可以開火甚至可以暢演也許大家對於那個空間的這個看法會不一樣但是我說就是這個所謂的空間有什麼東西我覺得我們沒有什麼好遮掩的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10323.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10346.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
但是我就說就像他裡面真的沒有什麼抽油煙機啊沒有瓦斯爐啊都沒有這些事情那我覺得因為如果照這樣我覺得勞動部你也要適時的澄清當然因為我們現在很好奇啊當初林副總委員講的這樣那我想說欸我們洪部長進去以後不知道你進去以後使用的感覺怎麼樣我就裝水進去而已所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10348.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10372.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
一直以來我們都沒有聽到勞動部針對這一部分來事實的來說明我們認為就是廚房啊可以開火啊可以吃飯啊甚至可以唱演啊上面的感覺就是這樣啊那你們從頭到尾也沒有針對這一部分做出任何的澄清啊我使用到的部分只有進去裝水所以我本來一直想說問部長齁到底使用以後的感覺怎麼樣啊就是水很乾淨 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10374.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10403.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
所以我覺得有受事實的澄清我相信當時大家看到林淑芬委員講的這個新聞之後我相信大家的想法跟部長的說法應該是有所出入我覺得如果有事實的澄清的必要還是要說明那我想請我們勞動條件跟就業平等司還有勞動關係司的司長我想針對我們辦理音樂會的部分來瞭解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10410.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10425.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我們過去幾年勞動部夜館的幾個法律大部分我們所知道其實都是用研討會的方式都是邀請專家學者、工會代表甚至婦女團體來討論這些落實法律上的問題對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10428.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10453.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
報告以往大概都是用學術研討會的形式來去做這個幾週年的這個形式對啊所以因為我們看歷史資料幾乎都是這樣那為什麼針對性平工作平等法20週年他是違反慣例不是辦研討會而是挪用救安基金來舉辦這個音樂會這部分黃市長你有沒有什麼說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10454.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10469.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
報告委員 那我們在當年的20週年的時候其實在上半年已經辦了兩場的這個學術研討會那一年其實是疫情那學術研討會在辦理的時候他是做一些學理上面的探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10470.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10488.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
那交流的部分的話都是大概學者專家還有一些同學和各界那它的人數其實是有限的那我們有發現一件事情是說這幾年其實要求我們對性別平等工作法多做宣達而那當年的話在111年其實我們性別平等工作法有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10489.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10503.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
所以你講的意思說其實之前都是辦研討會然後你們也都辦過研討會但是針對這20週年確實也辦了一場演唱會嘛這一場的話是我們希望說透過一些多元的宣導所以他希望說拍出一個片子 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10503.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10532.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
拍出妻子的片子以及有一場的一個直播但是他拍攝的內容形式是用音樂會的方式這樣可以讓更多的勞工朋友和很多的婦女團體他們可以用這樣的方式來參與其實針對因為今天早上我也聽了很多委員的質詢答詢那針對我們這個音樂會的部分你看像王一鳴委員那時候有問針對這引帶的部分說要做妻子做妻子引帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10533.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10558.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
然後說這個費用花了兩百多萬那針對這部分其實現在大家所質疑就是說這個音樂會裡面用救安基金的錢很多的地方其實大家都認為這個項目這樣子使用這個預算是不對的那我們現在重點想了解黃市長這個活動是你自己想要辦還是誰提出要辦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10559.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10577.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
這個活動其實我們有做過評估那其實在在過往的時候大概都有很多委員外界有一些指教是說我們的性別平等工作法可以用更多的多元的方式老師長我問說這是你自己想到要去辦的還是之前我們前部長覺得要辦這個活動的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10578.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10600.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
在我們這個相關的這個辦理的過程中其實我提到上半年我們辦了兩場的學術研討會所以是師長你自己覺得要辦的是嗎辦了這個學術研討會之後後續的話我們再參加的這兩場學術研討會許前部長不是啊我師長我說這是你自己想到要辦的還是我們前部長許部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10601.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10621.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
在這個相關後面的我們得到訊息是說有很多的我們包括像中南部的朋友是對於或基層的勞工朋友他們對於這樣的性別平等工作法我們當年有很多的新的一件所以是誰決定要辦這個演算會是沒有辦法說讓這些人都有機會接觸到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10621.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10630.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
那有這樣的一個訊息進來,我們就來研究說到底可不可以用什麼方式來做的?我們有來做一些共同的開會的討論,所以我們用什麼樣的方式可以來做更接近民意的...不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10642.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10649.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
那是你自己召集的?不是啦,就是誰召集就這麼簡單的問題所以是司長你自己召集決定要辦的嗎?所以是司長召集的嗎?這邊是指誰啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10664.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10668.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
所以許前部長也知道他也同意要辦這個活動嗎?他也同意嗎?所以許前部長也同意嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10693.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10711.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我們依照程序要對嘛 一定有簽嘛 一定有簽署簽成嘛所以許前部長也同意司長的這個做法嘛所以我們就說針對這個演唱會其實喔黃國昌委員之前也有講你像今天早上很多的委員都針對這一部分我們現在我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10712.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10739.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我們現在執政黨官員這濫用預算的部分這必定已經是系統性的腐敗這是黃國昌委員之前在質詢的時候就有提出那可是我們勞動部輕描淡寫的回應說公務機關預算之用核銷相當嚴謹如有任何事證可提供檢調或廉政單位依法處理也就是說勞動部整個態度就是認為說如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10741.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10763.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
有任何不法你就去送,那所以他的意思就是說,針對這個事情查無不法,謝謝指教嘛。土偉永,這樣跟土偉永報告齁,其實第一個針對這一場音樂會的部分,第一個確實是在新公法方面,就是新公法確實是臺灣性別平等跟我們的勞動法治化裡面非常標誌性的事件。 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10765.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10782.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那但是確實在這個呈現上面呃呈現的形式上面可能大家就對主觀上面會有不同的看法也許部分呈現的橋段其實讓大家觀感不佳這部分我們也在檢討對啊所以所以部長11月24號你們這樣子回覆可是你想想看這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10784.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10810.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
短短的4天之後我們的臺北地檢署就以分他治案來辦理我覺得這真的就是重重打臉我們勞動部前面講的輕描淡寫相當嚴謹如果你查有不法歡迎檢查就是好像說你們內部調查是絕對沒有問題結果地檢署馬上來偵辦你講的沒有錯目前其實檢調正在針對這部分開始月卷跟偵查所以我們也會全力的配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10811.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10828.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
所以我希望我們勞動部以後針對這些發言你看你講的非常嚴謹結果馬上地檢署就來偵辦然後而且在12月3號勞動部自己馬上又承認這個救安基金使用確實有不妥之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10828.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10843.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
所以我不知道說我們勞動部在11月24號這樣子禁止隨便發言那當然那時候部長還沒有來我想那時候其實整直的是說他確實有走過他確實有走經過必要的程序他必要的程序上是有走過 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10844.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10857.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
但是就項目內容上面合不合宜這部分當然可以檢討我希望部長現在在勞動部針對有時候這些發言真的要謹慎你才短短的發言幾天以後就重重打臉我覺得這對勞動部的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10860.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10884.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
應該還是要妥勝啦不是說你今天趕快講一下這個我很嚴謹結果馬上就被辦然後自己又說確實有不妥之處對我們基本上都是用面對問題的態度來看待這些其實大家的指教我希望部長現在到勞動部針對這部分有針對要好好的來好好的去改善一下而且我們現在針對霸凌難的部分其實之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10886.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10914.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
何部長的時候我們就有質詢過因為我們據我們了解啊謝一榮前分署長他擔任小主管的時候並沒有這個霸凌的歷史但是他所受的相關的業務經驗沒有職業訓練沒有就業服務的經驗他就去做這個分署長連很多的媒體各方面大家都說他接這個分署長是做直升機啊那不知道部長你對這個是不是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10915.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10937.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
他能夠這樣子破格去升任分署長到底是誰幫他的謝前分署長的升任這事情是事實那我想他在當分署長前他做過哪些職位這也都完全都能夠查得到所以這些相關的升任的這些決策我覺得都要必須接受社會的公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10937.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10956.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
因為據我們了解啦其實我們認為今天會發生這霸凌案我們是感覺一個主要原因我們的謝前分署長因為他這對這個業務並不是很熟絡所以他在領導我們這些分署裡面的這些同仁他沒有辦法去領導就瞎指揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10957.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10978.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
我覺得才後面導致這個霸凌的原因那而且就像部長自己講剛剛我才聽到部長講原來你在去年就知道勞動部這麼多的鬼故事那而且我們也了解說在今年2月份的時候我們的前次長王安邦就有約談過謝怡榮前分署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10978.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11003.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
那可是為什麼這個事情也沒有記錄也沒有去做改善才會導致後面這無緣因為霸凌而親身的事情發生如果當初好好處理就不會發生這件事啊這當然是讓人很遺憾的事情那當然我現在上任以後我的工作就是怎麼讓其實這些相關的案件都可以好好的被處理這是我現在的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11004.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11032.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
因為現在我們希望部長上來真的好好調查因為我們那時候臨時提案有講說要重啟調查當然說本來這次就要提出報告那後來部長也說要到下個禮拜嘛對不對我希望這些報告針對王安邦次長這些事情我覺得應該也要有一個交代因為我們據我們了解二月份而且很多委員都講明明知道之前就約談過而且這個事情真的很奇妙約談的長官 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11034.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11052.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
結果被調職結果被約談的還一直穩坐泰山所以人家一直講這個背後到底有什麼靠山我們勞動部到底還有多少局內人我覺得部長喔要真的好好調查清楚因為你這份報告很重要大家都在關注這份報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11053.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11065.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
向圖委員說明因為其實現在針對比較是在標案或者是採購上面就經費使用上面的部分現在檢調在查那檢調室友請我們針對假設是針對標案跟採購的部分請我們先暫緩 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11070.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11086.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
我知道但是我希望針對這個霸凌案這中間還有很多的問題當然希望我們都在等這份報告針對霸凌案的部分我們當然現在就是重啟行政調查好因為這個大家對這個都是有很大的意義哦我一直要講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11087.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11114.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
這個事情早之前可以處理到就像之前去年部長的時候就得到聽到很多的鬼故事而且王航班前次長也去約談過可是居然沒效果結果約談過以後他自己9月突然在晚上11點多被發布離職命令我們大家在笑去約談的主管結果自己被調職被約談的反而穩坐泰山所以這部分我希望給你給我們一個清楚的交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11116.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11139.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們當然希望能夠完整的把這個事件的前因後果然後尤其是這個在本分數裡面的事件能夠透過這個重啟調查能夠呈現的清楚部長大家對你來接這個勞動部長雖然大家說爭議很高可是我們也對你期望很深希望能夠把很多沒有辦法調查的事情希望能夠水落石出謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11157.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11182.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
好 謝謝接下來請我們蘇清泉委員謝謝 我也頂尊喜部長 來我講一個故事給你聽我們的法人醫療法人裡面有一個員工姓謝他是少校少校退伍退伍以後就到我們法人來上班那就在管理部 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11183.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11200.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
現在受教退伍都40幾歲了嘛就牽涉到中高齡就業所以我今天講的每一個地方都很tricky喔那我們停車場的管理人是74歲高齡就業所以這樣這一種的中高齡就業、高齡就業我們勞動部要愛講獎勵啦要獎勵要撥點預算去獎勵這些這個是要鼓勵企業因為現在到處缺人 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11213.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11237.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
那他這個這個這個這個員工這個同仁他前一陣子跑來找我他說他要離職嗯我說你為什麼要離職他說我說跑不動就業這個要好好珍惜因為你本來就有退休放了嘛齁軍少校退有月退他說他要出去創業我扯死了我說你要創業你是那個你是那個特工的問題我問他要做什麼他說要做茶壇 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11241.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11243.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
我問他三個問題第一個我說你的本質學能有沒有比原來這個老闆強第二個我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11264.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11265.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
第3個我問他說：他是怎樣才不會做：他說 了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11287.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11307.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我了解一下,哇,旁邊四五大,不一樣的,親親茶涼的,有什麼什麼,超多啦,什麼白痴囉我講,旁邊那麼多勁精,我講你這三個條件,你有比他更怕命嗎?你本子學能有比他強嗎?你可以這樣做到晚上10點嗎?再來,你有本人要料嗎?我講,這個就做不好了,你平時怎麼做得好? |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11317.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11320.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
同樣的問題我們合佩山11月22日在這公家 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11349.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11373.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我當主席嘛,流淚流的事,所以我非常不捨我都把他紊亂,把他勾勒,他很害怕他也很害怕,他說公務體系很僵化,這他講的,就在身邊講這裡到那邊,我剛剛給他算了,差不多8點多公尺啦我這裡打包到那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11374.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11375.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
其實我想我非常清楚知道現在勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11404.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11433.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
內外面對到的的壓力跟狀況其實都有非常非常大的挑戰那行政院在邀請我出任這個職位之後當然我現在決定我決定接受我就是做全部的承擔跟全力以赴所以從我的角度來說我比較不會去想說條件好壞的問題我現在我現在的工作就是全力以赴把問題一步一步的解決這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11434.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11459.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
就是你碰到的問題要解決從早上到現在都是你以前幫勞工幫各界幫職業團體講的話今天大家都一一的拿來給你檢視你講過的話你自己就要承擔當然你講過的話你要怎麼解決你要有一些復案公務體系真的是不好搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11461.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11476.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
蠻僵化,退也退不動而且隊伍那麼龐大我剛剛一個一個勞動力發展署他加上外面的僱員臨時工的八百重室的什麼八百重工加起來就好幾千人 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11477.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11501.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
裡面都是業聘人員一大堆真的有公務員人才不到五分之一對不對所以很難做嘛所以你現在自己要面對的不一樣做你為請差公共的去到那裡不可以請差公共的對啦我沒有覺得立委都是請差公共的啦沒有啦至少在這邊執行不用負法律責任嘛所以只要負道德責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11502.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11515.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
好那我還有2分23秒第二個問題我要問你的就是今天出問題這一這幾間都是救援安定基金嘛那勞動部下面有6個基金對 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11517.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11543.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
那這個基金舊安定基金收入是298億182萬元支出是273億3000多萬這個是舊安定基金那其他的有勞保的作業基金舊制的勞退基金新制的勞退基金基建公司的基金採訪法人職業災害的中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11546.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11562.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個基金有問題嗎?現在其實勞務下面有六個基金那這六個基金的性質其實跟這個捐基金的性質比較不一樣因為他其實他的收入跟他的尤其是他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11563.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11579.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這些其他的基金很多他都有固定的給付所以他的性質是比較不一樣那個部分當然他的使用上面是我們的基金運用局在做整體的使用那因為就案基金確實他會承接比較多人比如說會有來自不同的申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11579.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11598.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
包括地方政府也來申請勞工團體工會等等等都會來針對救安定基金如果他符合我們在救福法裡面包括是提升勞工福祉促進國民就業或者是這個移工相關的管理事務的話他都可以來申請所以他們的性質上面是比較不同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11598.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11623.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
所以其他的作業基金應該是不太會出問題啦比較不會不受控阿亂做我想我們業務單位都非常非常嚴謹的在把關對像勞退基金幼稚變成國安基金在顧股市的什麼的那個有時候要去操作的那個有法制化有很嚴謹嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11624.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11642.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
跟蘇緣報告齁其實我們在這些其他的基金包括勞保基金包括剛才說新制舊制等等等這些基金包括這個職財保險也有相關的基金這些基金我都已經要求同仁在管理的原則上最重要就是要專業就是用專業那 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11645.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11667.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
這個有很多管理上面的做法上面我們怎麼樣避免外界不當的干預那尤其是現在逐步的過去確實發生過相關的弊案那但是這幾年也把相關的機制建立的越來越完善這是事實機制的建立已經越來越完善那我現在更要求就是以專業為導向來做這些其他基金運用的管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11669.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11672.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11678.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11705.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我對洪部長到從立委跑到勞動部去我也替你爭爭不敢也替你爭混亂希望好好的做各個署各個司要督促我想你當一個政務官就是要好好的盯盯住那下面的要慢慢改事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11705.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11727.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
有些有些看起來真的是蠻蠻僵化蠻不好推的齁但是你還是要排除萬難啦謝謝謝謝謝謝主委很鼓勵如果總統行政黨支持你那你就好好幹嘛我覺得最重要的是要讓勞工朋友也能夠信任我們然後包括我們部內的同仁能夠信我講這是最重要的更重要的加油加油 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11756.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11758.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
議案全部都三分鐘有料了啦齁 齁 齁 齁 齁 齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁齁� |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11776.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11804.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
第一案為了更有效地應對職場霸凌建議勞動部應針對勞工執行職務造成身體或精神不法侵害預防的界定進行明確規範在研擬相關規範時應廣泛徵求專家學者勞工代表及工部門相關人士的意見建請勞動部能在三個月內提出修法方向並積極推動立法修正提案人委員林月晴 郭育晴連署人委員黃秀芳 王振旭 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11805.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11826.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
第二案．有鑒於勞動部所屬就業安定基金長期出現濫用情形．原此．要求勞動部以更嚴謹的方式．進行審視該計劃經費之用的合一性．競速諮詢第三方專家提供建議．並進一步規劃把關就安基金之用的強化機制．若有確實證據及疑慮．應移送政風及檢調單位． |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11830.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11855.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
並於一周內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出就業安定基金 完整的精進及檢討報告提案人委員王育敏 陳金輝 陳昭芝 邱振鈞 廖偉翔 圖權吉 蘇清泉 黃建豪 宣讀完畢請問第一案新任辦委有沒有意見報告沒有意見主席代理主席我有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11856.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11884.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
因為第一案他的語意太模糊建請勞動部在三個月內提出修法方向他是講方向那早上我在質詢部長的時候你說下會期就要提出來那已經是個法案這講的只是個方向我覺得方向太模糊了如果通過這個提案那到底是以早上部長的回答下個會期二月份就要送進來還是是只是提一個草案方向這差太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11896.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11909.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
這件事情外界對我們時程上的壓力其實也是很大的我非常清楚可是因為這個法規的修訂包括相關的條文的擬定其實我們真的會需要一些時間我知道很大家很急 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11911.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11938.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
但是真的會需要一些時間因為這裡面真的會有一些專業上面的問題我們也在參考國際上面的意見坦白說我們也不敢非常草率的送出一些條尤其是這裡面修法的方他可能不是很可能不是只是修一個單條如果修一個單條這比較簡單可是他可能他的這個修法的方向真的是比較複雜我覺得我們真的會盡快可是你說一定是在2月的時候就有一個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11940.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11963.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我是真的擔心說如果一定要這樣子要求的話變成是送出來的草案的版本可能也會不夠嚴謹我真的擔心這件事情我覺得要一個期程我早常在質詢就是說你要一個進度表那你到時候如果不行你再告訴委員會說為什麼不行但總要有一個目標跟方向所以我剛才跟網友也說明就是說我自己會很希望是在比方下個會期的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11965.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11979.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這個草案有一個初步的版本那是不是可以修改成部長的意思這樣草案的版本這個是方向這個是郭委員他對不是啊就是如果這個通過的話會跟你的語意就是像漢格你知道嗎就是說這個是方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11981.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11982.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12003.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12026.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
因為有三種的不同的狀況那我想說這個因為其實跟每一個所謂的在職場當中碰到的一些樣態其實會有很多的那個我想跟委員說明其實現在關於這個霸凌防制的法制化其實就像禮拜一其實有很多的專家委員給我們很多的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12027.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12055.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
這些意見裡面包括修法的路徑到底是要修專法還是專章還是修少部分條文其實這都待決定那也包括裡面要放入哪些東西也有委員期待說是不是要放入更多的東西坦白說這裡面有很多部分真的需要一條一條好好的研議這些事情我覺得比較像是修法方向有了一個方向後才比較能夠去做細緻具體條文的研議 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12063.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12080.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
因為還要再廣泛徵求專家的意見我們尊重提案的委員那我要問部長是說什麼時候要版本因為你答應我早上尋答的時候你說是下會期對我說下會期三個月後有方向就已經是下會期了那什麼時候要版本修法的草案要送進立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12081.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12101.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
幾月比如說4月5月你總是抓一個時間嗎你先給外界大家都在關注這個嗎那你就給一個時間到時候你如果產不出來那有何正當的理由大家都可以諒解我是真的是希望是真的是希望是下會期啦在下會期的期間裡面我們可以來把版本給研議我們把版本給研議出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12102.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12102.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
好 那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12128.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12149.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這不是你,王委員這不是你提的,所以要加你算是前政黨會加的所以我這條只能召喚通過,這樣而已你有意見你再提,再提就好了好,那第一案就召喚通過,來,第一案第二案行政黨員有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12152.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12173.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
其實就針對那個倒數第三行的部分就是說並一週希望能夠改成一個月對我們剛才在詢答的時候也聽說其實用一個月的時間我們就這個救安基金的把關機制上面我們邀請一些相關的專業者來給我們建議那我們會拿在一個月希望提出一個方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12182.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12183.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12218.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12218.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
好,我們臨時提案處理完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12228.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12245.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
那接下來我們請林淑溫委員發言我們王振旭委員發言後我們休息20分鐘吃便當讓大家不要被霸凌好 謝謝主席我是不是再請我們的這個部長 洪部長謝謝林委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12252.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12282.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
部長在你的臉書說上週我一上任以後我就指示同仁我們必須要針對舊安基金的資用進行檢討那你指示同仁針對這個舊安基金進行檢討你自己有沒有先針對舊安基金裡面所編列的這個計畫項目稍微看一下有哪些你是你認為說這些違規的資用項目不適當的資用項目不適當的計畫你覺得哪幾項是很特別很深刻的 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12282.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12308.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
然後可以提出來討論事實上也應該一併要檢討的不是只有媒體講的這一些演唱會或是水電費或是什麼的你有沒有其他印象深刻的跟林委員報告其實其實我要求上週其實就要求同仁檢討我們其實確實現在看到的狀況是就是說他有他必須經過的程序的機制我是問你有沒有其他項目啦有不用講這麼多因為我身體不太舒服 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12310.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12339.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
你講太久我等一下又要吐了不是因為你講話是我真的真的暈眩想吐好比方說我們其實看到勞動部下面有一間會議室的設備採購跟裝修那這個都講過了那你還有其他的項目2200萬其實我們陸陸續續真的都是陸陸續續在清查編列的不合時宜不應該編到這個救安基金來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12343.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12368.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
這確實是針對現在在救安基金裡面其實也許我們自己勞動部過去會有一套我們覺得為什麼可以編類進行講法但是從社會的觀感來說可能覺得是不適合部長你到底有沒有看一下你因為你也是曾經是我們未完委員會我就直接你因為你都一直講不出來我直接就教於你我覺得這個錢是該花但是是不是應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12370.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
12374.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
編載救安基金絕對可以討論,第一個,辦理國內技能競賽及選手培訓編列,4億8500萬,參加國際技能組織賽事及交流訪問,編列7億3900多萬, |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
12387.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
12409.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你覺得這個該編到這個基金裡面來嗎我跟你們報告其實確實過去其實這個因為勞動部部本部的預算其實都一直很少這個會是救安基金的對大量使用但12億多元我知道業務單位會認為說這符合在救福法裡面所謂促進國民就業是他用這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
12411.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
12412.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
國際競賽是國際技能競賽國內技能競賽 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
12419.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
12441.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
跟委員報告因為我們在促進國民就業的過程當中有關如何提升國人對於技職的一個價值的一個認可這個部分是一個這競賽要辦到12億喔你們都辦了什麼因為這個部分比較特別在於說我們目前除了在花了12億的競賽到底是辦什麼除了分區的競能競賽跟到底是競賽啥啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
12442.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
12449.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
就是我們這個相關的技術職類我們都不知道說你們的競賽光是一個競賽不是演唱會300多萬國內和國際競賽就花了12億這個真的是有一點誇張那沒關係再把詳細細目通通送上來你們過去十幾億都怎麼花的第二個綠能產業作業安全促進計畫這個是職業安全與衛生那編到我們這個勞發署裡面的救安基金來不是救保 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
12472.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
12478.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
不是保險的這個安全上的是是編到這個促進就業的綠能產業作業安全基金的促進計畫花了1140萬這個東西不是應該就業安全為什麼獨厚綠能產業那綠能產業如果是因為高空作業一身危險那為什麼建築業沒有為什麼其他營造業沒有補助就只偏偏補助這個綠能產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
12500.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12524.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
各位報告這綠聯產業這案的計畫是我們子安署提的因為這個對阿子安署沒有編在你自己的救保基金裡面沒有在你自己的署內的業務然後編到這個安定基金來然後安定基金就算了你怎麼你怎麼只獨厚綠能產業高空墜落建築業為什麼沒有其他的那個容易一生殖災的產業為什麼沒有補助獨厚綠能產業而我們知道綠能產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12528.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12530.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
至少很多在股價上都是相當的表現得很不錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12534.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12560.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
各委員報告因為綠能產業從氫能太陽能太陽能等等都是算新的對啦為什麼是綠能那為什麼我們要看你的職業安全與衛生職災發生率最高的那一些產業為什麼沒有補助啊他們有比綠能產業還不危險嗎綠能產業有比我們最常發生的那些職災高的那些產業別還更重要重要到政府需要補助其他的常發生職災的卻沒有拿到補助嗎為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12563.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12564.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
這沒有補助款嗎?你確定嗎?你把詳細的動資的狀況拿來好了。好,那我再就教一部長齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12581.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12599.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
為了強化私立救福機構的就業服務的專業性勞動部開辦了以及技術式的檢定考試範圍要包括勞動法令招募和職業輔導等等私立救福機構他設立許可及管理辦法這裡面就要求說你就業的這些服務的專業人力都一定要取得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12600.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12609.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
強制取得這個以及證照的這個制度但是你們公立自己的就業輔導的這些救福機構卻沒有被強制私立的要強制公立的沒有要強制然後我們都知道我以前也曾經開過一個玩笑公立的救福機構裡面是未來的失業者要輔導現在的失業者但是如果你還有一個專業的話我們在講有專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12626.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12653.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
還好一點現在是沒有證照的沒有專業認證的未來的失業者在輔導現在的失業者因為裡面都是承攬的以前都是用那個承攬以前都是用這個派錢那其實大家講說其實服務有關公共就業服務他其實要強化服務人員的專業的資格那所以要提要 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12654.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12654.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
請問部長你知不知此這樣的觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12674.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12690.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
剛剛我聽劉委員講我其實是支持這樣的觀點的當然是那因為以前的證照就業服務的專業人員有區分成仲介人力的還有輔導人員就是救福輔導的還有這個就業仲介的那現在整合成一張這個證照一張技術試證以後他會具備兩項資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12695.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12721.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
但是因為法規規定私立就業服務機構的專業人員比例因法定的設置標準所以該技術市政成為外勞仲介的必備的證照依法規規定估算私立就業服務機構的專業人員比例大概20到30%那他們其實是特別是私立的就業服務機構裡面一定要有這個證照那看起來就是我們的公立的服務機構裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12723.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12744.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
正照的比例只有到63%那事實上扣除掉人資相關的正照只有59%是具有以及這個正照的這個資格那我們看就是說以及正照要考什麼要考勞動法令要考職業輔導和招募就業服務人員的工作任務還包含職業來諮詢就業輔導職業介紹就業市場的趨勢職業培訓和後續的追蹤輔導看起來這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12753.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12769.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
要考的以及技術式的證照就是公立就業服務機構就業服務人員的工作的服務內容而這些要做這些服務內容的這些所有公立機構的人都不需要有這種證照這有一點有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12770.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12791.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
有趣啊,所以我們在講說,勞動部到底是沒有硬性規定你們公立的要取得這個以及技術式的證照,但是你們都說我們有在執訓啊,我們會做什麼法令啊,職業倫理、職業生涯的這一些在上課啊,但在講法就是說,那這樣的話,那以及技術式的這個證照是雞肋,一點不重要嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12795.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12800.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
那如果他是雞肋的話那在私立就業服務機構有證照無證照也沒有保證品質啊那該證照到底是還有價值嗎還是乾脆就廢除了還是說事實上我們應該對證照制度應該蓋更多的肯定所以專業上認證上含金量應該更多就業服務的以及技術是檢定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12819.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12843.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
這個制度的精進 考試的精進 定位的檢討這個勞發署都應該要再檢討 是不是到底是要把它當成直接大家都不用了廢除了還是說更專業那證照上面的規範應該更精進含金量應該更高那如果含金量要更高的話你公立救福機構的這一些人都不需要有證照人家私立服務機構的還有證照勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12845.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12873.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
是跟委員報告這個部分有關公立跟私立救福機構的相關專業人員因為他的業務執掌的不同而對於他的專業裡面的這一些需求的一個內容是不是反映在我們的技術師證我就講了你們公立機構的業務執掌的範圍就跟考以及技術式的證照的內容是一致的是所以反而看起來是你們公立救福機構的這一些服務人員更需要擁有以及證照是 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12875.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12903.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
是對啊那到底是要是要怎麼樣是要讓這個證照更專業那你們內部的公立的這個服務機構的所有的人什麼時候可以達成每一個輔導人力都是100%擁有專業的證照的這個資格的國務委員報告因為這個證照他的這個緣起的時間跟我們公立救福機構存在的時間還是有前後上的差異所以目前是採取鼓勵我們的對啦那你告訴我到底是時程上要不要追上啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12905.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12930.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
就是說未來多久你們希望每一個公立的都要有證照才能在公立機構當專業的服務者那個我們我跟我來跟業務單位討論一下針對拉高這個以及證照公立教育服務機構證照的比例逐步的拉高施力的是100%是那我們逐步的來拉高對我們來提一個期程好不好好 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12931.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12958.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
沒有證照的未來的失業者輔導現在的失業者的現象要解決就是我們來提一個逐步拉高的期程好不好好那另外的問題就改天再討論因為這個北分署的事情有一個制度面的問題我上次問過何部長洪部長也麻煩你回去一併思考就是說因為那個自殺的無性那個員工然後他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12959.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12978.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
他下面有五個至六個勞務承攬的人力但是他沒有指揮監督權所以即便有人力他也不能叫他做事那這樣子的狀況你們通通派遣太難聽了所以全部改成勞務承攬就沒有派遣的事結果派遣你還可以指揮監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12979.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12979.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12996.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13012.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
那個因為其實我們在重新再調查瞭解的過程裡面非常清楚知道現在在人力結構上面我們確實覺得他有不健康的地方整個勞發署都是這樣子在這個不健康的狀況之下是很容易出這些問題的這是潛在的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13013.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13028.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
對你回去研究一下派遣然後勞務承攬但我最後再講一個因為剛才有委員一直提到零數分零數分零數分我來講說你認知的茶水間是設置在部長辦公室裡面對不對我就問這一句就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13029.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13054.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
整個部長辦公室部長辦公室有幕僚工作室然後設在部長辦公室幕僚工作室進去他不是在我個人的那一間對他不是在你但是我問你幕僚的工作室是不是也是部長辦公室的一環所以你所認知的茶水間其實是在部長辦公室裡面所以並不是大家都會進去用 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13054.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13074.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
頂多是幕僚可以用是部長的幕僚跟部長共同在用當初謝怡榮當初那個祖密他就是在他們在用我指出的就是他們在用的當然商辦大樓是不可能有明火瓦斯管的商辦大樓沒有人會接瓦斯管所以都 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13075.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13076.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
接下來我們請王振旭委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13107.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13126.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
好 謝謝主席我先祝我們這個林書恩委員早日康復剛剛真的很辛苦而且還很努力的把他的工作做得非常好真的要 大家都要多小心自己的健康我們就麻煩文部長 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13133.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13161.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
是部長恭喜那也很辛苦因為這的確是一個困難的工作要您來承擔那也希望您在這個承擔過程裡面除了注重自己身體健康的同時也把所有勞工的健康還有所有的部分都可以做得非常的依照您的理想來執行是那今天就根據三個部分來跟您請教因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13162.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13183.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這三個部分主要就是之前也跟過去何部長還有許民生部長都有承諾過一些政策來做一個確認包括有勞保年金還有移工醫療呆帳還有有關於這個我們一些勞工如果他有做一些健康檢查那如何跟衛護部的資料可以做一些銜接 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13184.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13206.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
第一部分就是我們也了解這個勞保年金要改革是一個很需要持續進行的部分可是我們也理解很多的勞工朋友他退休的時候他的給付包括他的這個所能平均的費用只有18824那低於2萬元的甚至還超過百萬的這些勞工的朋友 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13211.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13231.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
這一部分其實之前何部長有一直在確認說因為這個勞保年金已經很低很低了所以在這個改革過程裡面是覺得會不會砍到這些給付年金的費用那當初的考量有包括三大點一個就是勞保年金給付相對是低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13231.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13247.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
再過來就是他的家庭成員可能他的青年低薪勞保年金的這個勞工退休是一個收入主力不適合再做處理那第三個更重要就是避免勞工因為恐慌而去申請那 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13247.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13268.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
他申請的過程如果他一次就全部領退對他未來的生活其實更沒有保障那會影響到更多的權益那這邊要確認的是那您在這方面的意見或者是針對這個廣泛勞動朋友勞動朋友所關心的這個勞金改革的部分不曉得您的意見是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13269.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13294.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
跟委員報告其實今年在這個撥補包括基金投資的收益之下目前看起來這個基金餘額的水位其實有在增加的很有可能在今年其實會破一兆那我們會用各種方式來維持基金餘額的水位那這邊在講到確實我也同意這個何部長的看法其實砍如果要砍給勞工的給付這真的會影響到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13296.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13298.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
對我們會用各種方式來維持盡量維持基金的水位 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
13317.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
13342.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
那第二個問題就是有關於這個移工10年也困難包括他身體健康為何的時候他還是必須要進到醫療的單位裡面去接受醫療那我想臺灣的健保制度即使是目前的狀態所有的醫療單位一定也會針對於只要在臺灣的民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
13344.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
13360.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
當他健康有需要醫療的時候呢是不會有任何拒絕的這個是我們可以充分理解的可是我們也知道這些移工失聯移工他身體出狀況的時候他的費用就會造成醫院處理以後的這些代帳的困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
13361.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
13390.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
那在今年的4月份臺灣醫院協會也針對於全臺灣470家的醫院去了解他們在執行過程當中針對於這個包括照顧失聯移工跟黑屋寶寶的醫療代帳那我們看到這個代帳的問題其實是蠻多元的齁至少在過去5年裡面就基建了1.25億以上包括醫學中心也好區醫院也好地區醫院也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
13390.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
13407.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那這些代帳我曾經也諮詢過好幾次那你也曾經建議說是不是有其他的資金的來源包括安定基金可以來支援這方面不管是用來支付也好或是用來編戶也好能夠解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
13408.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
13429.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
至少這筆呆帳不要一直掛在這個醫院這樣的這個單位裡面所以今天也特別再請教一下部長那將來針對於這部分的這個醫療呆帳有沒有其他的思維模式因為我們也知道其實這個安定基金裡面的第5條第6款有講到要辦理勞工福祉 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
13431.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
13456.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
這個勞工理論上也應該包含我們的移工第7款是辦理外國人聘僱管理事項相對來講我們這些移工也算是外國人的一個來源所以這部分可不可以也再請研議看看那第二部分就是要強化這個外國仲介的責任我們也期待將來在外國仲介這個部分的責任也可以再加強第三個是移工來源國 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
13457.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
13461.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
能不能夠透過MVU的方式來請他們來負擔這部分部長的意見怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13462.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13486.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
那個第一個跟外國人報告我其實完全理解我們其實很多醫院其實在這個移工事件的狀況下面還是提供移工就醫的權利這其實是一個醫療人權從醫療人權的價值的角度在進在在進行那相關的這些現在所謂的這個呆帳那該要由誰來做承擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13490.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13507.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
跟委員報告我們現在剛委員提到兩個部分第一個就是有關移工的小朋友就是黑戶寶寶這個部分目前我們分別已經透過衛福部跟內政部移民署已經有相關的一個醫療甚至安置還有如果要之前又要遣返的話相關的費用是有補助的所以黑戶寶寶的問題比較小 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13508.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13531.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
但是確實失聯移工目前我們並沒有提供他的醫療費用的一個補助那主要的考量在於說如果一般合法在台工作的移工他的健保以外沒有給付的醫療的部分費用他都必須要自己負擔的話那我們對於這些無證的移工失聯的移工我們提供這個相關的醫療費用的補貼是不是會有一些觀感的問題必須考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13531.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13555.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以這個部分確實我們是朝著剛剛委員所提醒的包括透過雙邊我們的一個跟蘭嶼國之間的繼續的洽談怎麼讓他可以協助我們去做一些家屬跟外國仲介的一個聯繫同時也希望能夠透過法令的研修把外國仲介的連帶責任的部分把它納入他必須要對於這些醫療費用的電付基線款項分也納入他的一個這個連帶保證的範圍之內這個會持續來努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13559.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13578.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我自己認為這裡面可能會有幾個議題會需要考慮就是說我們怎麼樣不會讓這個失聯義工的這個醫療的費用的支出反而變成是這個擴大或增加失聯義工數字的道德風險那我覺得這部分當然是會必須去考慮的事情但就概念上面我自己認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13580.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13605.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
到底是這個移工之所以失聯的責任在主要在誰身上其實誰就應該針對這件事情有比較大的致富的責任我覺得一個想法是這樣但當然會有一些細節操作面的細節的部分我覺得我也會來跟業務單位我們在做討論但我理解其實業務單位可能擔心的事情是就是說怎麼樣不會變成是擴大移工失聯的這樣子的道德的風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13606.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13632.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
因為合法的移工要繳錢,非法移工假如全部都是由政府或者追問基金來出的話怎麼不會造成這樣子的結果,他們可能考慮考慮的點是這個事情好,那就麻煩部裡面再去願意那第三部分就是勞工健檢的資料,我們在兩個禮拜前也提過一個臨時提案希望針對未來在打造這個健康台灣過程裡面,很多的勞工健康資料透過檢查以後,如何能夠有效的跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13633.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13640.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我完全同意我完全同意這是這些資料之間的流通交換跟能夠綜合性發揮更大價值的使用所以我們會來跟衛福部來去討論這個資料上面的對接這部分我是非常同意好那就麻煩再持續執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13660.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13674.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
最後就是有關於這個職場霸凌這是今天的主題我相信大家對於如何能夠有效的去處理我們今天面對的困境大家對於部長真的期望非常高那到目前為止我們也感受到部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13675.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13691.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
用心決心還有努力的方向希望能夠盡快的讓這個事件可以落幕了以後把整個這個相關的同仁的士氣還有對於做事情的態度都能夠做一個完整的該有的一些方向跟訴求 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13692.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13718.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
那這邊是有想要針對於說如果有職場霸凌的話尤其職場在行為人是最高負責人這個部分我們現在如果透過內部機制事實上是無法解決這樣的問題那透過性評法可以用外圍的這個第三調查的或申訴的機制來處理那這部分是不是也將來部長會朝這個方向針對一般的職場也是用同樣的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13720.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13740.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
跟網友報告其實確實現在會有一些外界的聲音希望在這方面的職場霸凌的防治希望能夠有參考新公法的做法那現在沒有錯現在到底就是說尤其是如果霸凌的這個加害者是雇主的時候現在在現有的機制裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13741.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13762.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
這確實就是一個大問題在這種機制裡面沒辦法處理所以我們其實也請業務單位在做這個法規的研議的時候要把這東西列現在提出來的這個問題列為是重點要去解決的問題但是要透過第三方也好或者是拉高上面的層級我覺得這些做法目前其實都沒有排斥但最後我們還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13763.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13766.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
最後各位主席再有一分鐘的時間讓我們這個部長對勞動部業務推動的期許 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13800.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13809.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
其實在我上任從上週到現在其實最明顯感覺是我們要怎麼把部內同仁的士氣可以重新的凝聚起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13810.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13830.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
那我自己在上週期我們花很多心力在面對這個問題因為這一段時間外界有很多的指教跟對勞動部的質疑真的都讓部內我們接下來很多業務工作的進行其實大家也許會有很多的不安或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13832.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13846.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
會有一些不夠有信心的地方所以我上來以後最重要的事情是案內那這也是為什麼我們其實很加速的去規劃剛剛說像針對北分署的職場重建與員工支持的方案都是從這個事情的出發點 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13847.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13849.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
好,謝謝部長的回應,一起努力,謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
15257.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
15258.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
我們繼續開會請劉建國委員執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
15289.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
15291.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好謝謝張偉部長如果好就請部長了 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
15300.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
15317.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
委員好部長好部長辛苦了你以為說命代打上陣但我沒相信你一定可以在勞動部裡轟出一支漂亮的權威打漂亮的權威打前面要再加改革改革的權威打也要肯定你的勇氣在這個事件之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
15321.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
15342.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
來接這個部長所以要打出一個漂亮的一個改革改革的漂亮的全壘打漂亮改革的全壘打我想大家關注的就一件事情就是11月19號北分署的調查報告我想剛剛很多委員都給你垂詢過了但你的答覆我還是希望要很明確因為畢竟已經兩個禮拜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
15345.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
15361.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
不管怎麼樣卓院長也特別在那個當下只是要一個星期所以我是覺得依照你我們過去同事這樣的一個認識跟知道你做事情的積極度我想應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
15363.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
15384.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
應該可以明確的快速的有效的讓社會大眾來知道這個整個事件的來龍去脈然後也告慰王哲在天之流然後也安慰我們勞動部相關同仁的這樣的一個心情跟那個留言報告齁其實可以不要加那個嗎好請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
15389.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
15417.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
其實我們非常知道現在大家對外界最勞動部最關注的其實就是重啟調查的調查報告從上個禮拜我們開始做這個重啟調查的作業準備到這個禮拜開始實質的訪談調查包括相關的報告的撰寫到下禮拜出來我可以跟委員說其實這裡面沒有一天待滿每天都有進度而且其實是盯得很緊的但確實在這個案件上面涉及到的層面跟要訪談的對象比較廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
15418.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
15420.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
所以我們也增加了一些約詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
15422.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
15450.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
各階層的人員希望能夠更完整的還原尤其是無性公務員他在生前他到底遭遇了什麼從他的角度要把視角從他的角度去還原這件事情我們認為非常非常重要所以確實會多一點時間這部分真的是比較不好意思的地方但是我們有跟持續跟行政院溝通也讓行政院知道說這個這個報告提出來的期程也就有徵得行政院的同意對 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
15451.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
15480.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
坦白說既然行政院邀請你來當勞動部的部長我想也應該要給你有一些緩衝跟足夠的時間但是我坦白說那是卓院長下令的一星期其實是有某種程度的問題存在但是那也是展現一個魄力也不希望說我們在公部門體系有這樣的霸凌的事件層出不窮 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
15481.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
15503.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
但是既然霸凌不是一件兩件不是一天兩天去聯繫起來的事情怎麼有可能說什麼就一個星期內調查完成這個我就覺得原本就有問題的存在了因為尤其是北分署這個案件他真的目前看到的狀況他真的看起來不是只是這個謝前分署長對於這個吳姓公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
15508.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
15524.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
各案式的作為甚至是在整個北分署裡面其實是一個普遍性的不當管理的作為所以他確實牽涉到的層面比較廣那我們就也在這個部分上讓行政院都有了解所以在溝通期程上面都讓他們知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
15524.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
15548.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
好啦我知道我也願意給部長時間啦反正這種事情調查原本就是要非常公正公平公開然後詳細的完整性的他才有辦法去呈現出來讓社會大眾可以去大家來做檢視嘛對不對要進得起檢視就不能再像上次那個狀況在發生嘛但是部長你看啦從北分署開始海科館機關署樹花部 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
15548.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
15559.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
公共部門的這個職場一直在傳出霸凌的事件尤其幾乎都是上對下的管理過當的問題幾乎是這樣所以部長你認為這個職場霸凌的事件臺灣是不是應該有一個專門的法規來進行嚇阻 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
15564.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
15565.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
15582.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
15607.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
其實委員建議的沒有錯現在我們在治安法裡面的這個第6條之3其實的定義是非常非常寬鬆的所以在直接操作的執行上會有很多界定上面的問題所以現在我們當然馬上就在做這個資產霸凌防治法制化的工作那其實現在禮拜一的時候其實就要專家學者來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
15609.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
15638.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
不管是現在有些人提議是要專法或者是要專章我坦白說我自己也覺得恐怕不是只是單修那個第6條之2或第6條之3單一條就可以解決這個事情這是一個蠻大的修法工程但是至於是要走專法還是專章或者什麼這個事情我們我是持開放的態度但現在還在跟專家學的討論中但是絕對不會我認為絕對不會只是修那一條而已因為那絕對是不夠的就機制建立來說一定是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
15639.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
15655.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以當時責任法通過之後大家非常高興好像好像什麼事情都一言而解了那其實回過頭來再檢視這個法律尤其針對霸凌的定義坦白講也很難透過這個法律去明確的目前的法條所以這就是要來討論要來修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
15659.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
15661.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
勞動部在這個指引中有明確指出各部門員工缺勤 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
15682.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
15689.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
並駕離職率是可以作為辨識及評估危害的參考依據也有特別提到這樣嗎?這不是寫的嗎?對不對?但是當時為什麼都沒有?當時這樣的離職率這麼嚴重了為什麼貴部都不清楚? |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
15700.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
15724.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以這個質疑已有定某個是可以參考的一些依據但怎麼都沒有去使用所以有時候也不是只有法律定好修好完整了我當然期待部長可以定出一個領先全球最好的一個這個防範這個職場霸凌的相關的法律出來對不對但是有時候法律定了如果不照這樣做不這樣依循的話定哪裡定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
15725.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
15747.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
就是在本會議裡面看到確實那個離職率而且甚至很多的我們公務人員他其實是就算是降調他都要走這當然是一個非常非常異常的狀況而且人員這麼大所以到底為什麼當時這個狀況人事的變動這麼大這麼異常沒有有提出更進一步的示警然後大家有一個比較從更上位的部分去解決我覺得這部分當然需要檢討對 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
15749.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
15768.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
好了我還是期待部長可能就是要辛苦一點的短期之內看這個秀娃的一個範圍跟方向是要給委員會來做一些參考大家共同一起來討論好不好最後最後一件事情部長知道EAP嗎我知道好 員工協助方案嘛對不對那部長對這個事情有掌握嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
15769.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
15793.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
有 其實我們也是檢視了北分署EAP的狀況所以才會覺得其實可能只有EAP不夠所以現在才規劃了一個可以讓大家去外面找諮商資源的目前這個狀況EAP不夠 部長所講的EAP不夠是指怎樣不夠能不能明確講一點我指的是說因為我去了北分署知道北分署現在整體的狀況恐怕EAP是不夠的我說因為北分署是一個蠻特殊的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
15794.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
15796.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我直接表當就把表秀出來給部長看嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
15817.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
15833.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
我們預算也就不講了實際原額嘛你看勞動部是280員工學生是45萬然後花署221 23萬這個比例大家可以看差不多的人數當然減了50幾位啦但是經費是減了一半以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
15834.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
15849.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那再來緬分署75%剩下不到老化署的三分之一但是他的經費好像又一半多一點點再來投足秒82 14.5然後中章投117更少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
15850.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
15850.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
部長﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
15874.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
15895.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
你的評審：你的預估：你的經驗跟委員報告我們本部的員工協助方案是本部與所屬的就剛才有秀出來的這幾個單位我們是共同的一個員工協助方案那今年度我們是編了總共是180萬那明年我們是編230萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
15898.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
15917.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
你們是全被包給 全包 全包嘛對不對 全包 對阿 全包好 那一個平均是多少 全包那就更糟糕了喔 那個 劉仁其實我即便是230萬啦 坦白說我看到這個數字我都覺得是不足夠的啦 是嗎我覺得這沒有什麼好 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
15917.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
15932.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
好去找我其實就是不夠的但我們當然會要再爭取更多的資源用在這個地方尤其是勞動部現在面對這麼大就是說內外的壓力的狀況之下很多員工其實在心理上面精神上面的張力特別大 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
15933.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
15958.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
部長我要特別提到你有帶頭作用貴部有帶頭作用這個事情如果處理不好我追這個事情只有兩年我是上次總統我到五院還有各部會所以在員工的協助方案預算編不夠的沒有編的還是什麼放在什麼地方的我絕對不會放過我絕對會處理到底然後你現在這個是預算的原額跟實際的原額你沒有包括你的約聘顧 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
15961.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
15963.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
本部的員工協助方案編列的預算是比其他的部會都是最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
15989.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
15990.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
我當勞動部部長其實就 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
16009.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
16029.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
本部所需要的需求然後夠不夠我們就看這件事情我基本上我們不看其他部會怎麼樣其他部會不歸我管但就本部實質狀況的需求到什麼地方我們盡量來提高這樣子如果通通不及格就不要互相去比通通不及格再看一個表就好時間到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
16031.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
16052.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
勞工署你看所屬員工協助方案的人士109還有500多位110還有500多位11下降4261213148198這個是一個很奇怪的一個曲線走向這個地方發生問題這個地方員工使用這個協助方案竟然是急速的下降是60%70%在下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
16054.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
16074.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
那顯然員工協助方案在這個地方到底有沒有發揮起這個作用怎麼會剛好這兩年下降得如此之快有沒有掌握還是只有電話打去了其他都不關他們的事情了根文報告我們主要是用在那個次數的啦0800的一個次數這個就是次數啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
16077.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
16082.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
跟委員報告是這樣子的因為我們有去洽詢那個專業心理團隊他們從112年開始統計方式改變他們把那個0800打回去問預約紀錄跟確定形成這些拿掉因為他統計方式改變所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
16096.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
16124.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
就是他們0800的專線除了過去三年除了統計打進去的之外他連那個打回來問這個員工預約紀錄跟確定行程的限數都在前三年的統計裡面從112年他把這個統計數字拿掉所以你要跟我講這個表格算是正常的因為把那兩項拿掉之後下降這樣算是正常不是你跟我講這樣你這樣說不是很奇怪是因為統計方式改變對啦對啊這樣的統計方式改變之後所以他這樣下降算是正常 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
16125.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
16147.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
那個 對不對我想剛剛同仁解釋的事情是說這個變化的原因啦但我不會去說這個整體我把它叫做是正常啦可是這個變化解釋比較是這個變化的原因啦是因為統計方式的這個登記的變化這樣子可是整體來說跟委員報告我也是看了相關的數據以後才我們上禮拜才做了一個決定說 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
16148.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
16163.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
如果以現在的這個服務的能量跟方法恐怕不足以支應目前北分署的同仁現在這個階段的需求所以才做了一個專案的特別處理這樣好部長簡單簡單二要我們就做事情就明快一些第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
16164.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
16191.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
趕快檢視嘛我們的員工協助方案這樣到底夠不夠員工協助方案是要事前接觸員工啦對不是事後才再啟動要怎麼協助員工當然對好所以我們就全面檢視嘛好尤其是勞動部與生作者嘛對不對而且要帶同那民間的帶頭一起來嘛所以是不是在本週五前提出這個員工協助方案的改善方案給委員會做參考可以嗎可以好謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
16193.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
16207.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長來 繼續我們請鄭正琦委員質詢謝謝主席 我想要請一下洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
16217.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
16235.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
部長好 因為從委員變成部長 我們都期待你會更了解民間的聲音 基層的聲音我想這是一個民意代表轉成行政官員很重要的一個部分那我在想說今天因為我們是針對勞發署北區分署的一個事件所產生的一個後續的一個專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
16236.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
16257.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那麼你在報告當中有特別提到說你之後要改進的方向包括要把現行執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的部分提升至法律的位階那我想問一下這個部分就是執行職務遭受不法侵害的部分是指針對在民間勞動的環境還是包括公務環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
16258.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
16279.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
好,跟鄭委員報告,其實這確實有兩個部分,一個部分是一般勞工在一般的職場上面的部分,這個勞工部分當然是歸勞工部管的,也是歸職安法來管的,但確實現在關於公務員,公務員的部分,他在法規上面他比較是屬於公務員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
16280.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
16281.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
跟這位人說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
16300.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
16327.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
一般勞工的部分當然一定是勞動部管理解理解那勞動部下的就是不法樣態嗎勞動部下的公務員我們也有責任嗯勞動部跟所屬下的公務員我們當然有責任但確實現在在那如果不是勞動部所屬的時候你們就沒有責任呃不是我的我不是說沒有責任但是我要說確實現在他們所使用的主要的法規他的法體系比較是在考試院下的這個法體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
16329.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
16347.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
委員長,我想問一下因為你在擔任立法委員期間的時候你之前就曾經聽過北區分署這件事情那你當時認為這個普遍性不適當的管理作為你也知道那你知道這個問題的時候可是你沒有進一步去追究你只是反應跟提醒對不對那導致了後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
16349.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
16349.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
跟這位人說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
16374.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
16399.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
之前我是聽聞但是我聽聞了謝芬署長的不當得管那不是針對無無姓公務員的狀況普遍性不適當管理者普遍性的當然就涵蓋他的這個部分但是不是都是普遍性的這不是針對無姓公務員的案例我是有聽聞但是當時並不是有陳情人來跟我陳情或者是我手上有明確的證據因為我手上沒有明確的證據 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
16400.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
16424.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
但是有這樣的聽聞所以我當然覺得我還是必須因為因為你當時的狀態你當時也是委員那你知道這個狀態是你沒有很積極去做所以我們現在對於你現在擔任部長之後的時候是不是會很有擔當齁能夠去針對這個部分能夠去解決好那我們其實是有一點點質疑啦齁尤其是在這一次當中的時候我因為北區分署這個事件當中的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
16425.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
16427.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
現在在行政院如果其他部會的目前當然會是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
16453.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
16482.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
還是要等到你當行政院長的時候再去處理不是這個意思我的意思是說現在不同的部會先去處理他的部會下因為時間的關係部長我跟你講一下公務之聲靠北電台這裡面從你上來之後一個1.3萬人的粉磚已經有超過300則不同的公務體系的霸凌PO在那上面你知道這件事情嗎我有看過這個粉磚 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
16482.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
16483.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
跟政務委員說明齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
16498.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
16521.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
我們的職安署確實在霸凌或者是相關的不法侵害上面他有累積他們一些專業所以今天這其他部會的公務人員他們可能現在還是主要適用的相關的保護法規是在考試院下面的法體系但是我們非常非常樂意提供我們在這方面的專業意見那我先跟你講行政院的 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
16523.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
16549.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
消保處我們辦公室就收到了這樣的一個澄清行政院的下面消保處就有類似的案子我直接跟你講我希望你能夠更積極的去消保處對去處理這件事情就是非常的嚴重那細節我就不講因為霸凌的樣態勞動部應該更清楚那因為時間的關係我最後問一個狀態行政院只是要研議設身心調試架 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
16551.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
16580.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
你知道這件事情嗎有看到這段時間的新聞跟討論那你支持身心調適假嗎當然我覺得對勞工從勞工的出發點來說身心調適是現在在職場上很重要的事情很重要的部分可是現在行政院的身心調適假只針對公務人員所以你這邊提到說勞工也很需要身心調適假那我希望你這邊能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
16581.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
16600.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
跟行政院這邊統一的去對待不要只針對公務人員有勞工沒有好不好你勞動部部長我希望能夠針對如果真的我們有身心調適假的時候能夠一體適用我我我們會來可以來做綜合的這些思考OK好謝謝好謝謝政委員謝謝部長那接續我們請習曉鑫委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
16614.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
16615.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
謝謝主席我們有請洪森漢部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
16624.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
16644.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
委員好部長好您是在11月25號上任的對吧是好那我想問一下有一個問題就是上個禮拜的時候因為您已經上任大概一週有餘那差不多上個禮拜的時候勞發署有沒有發一封信件給各個分署要求同仁要填寫表單 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
16646.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
16652.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
詢問是否有平日加班假日加班超時工作有沒有打卡的情況進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
16656.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
16682.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
請回答跟委員報告齁大聲一點好不好跟委員報告齁因為在1120那個時候專題報告的時候有諮詢有一個承諾事項是要全面清查勞動部跟所屬有沒有這種情況那所以我們因應這個部分勞動部有給我們做一個函詢所以我們的確有對說你可以大聲一點嗎這個收音的問題好那我知道那請問部長你知道這件事情嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
16687.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
16705.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我坦白說在這個發的時候其實我並不知道啦你不知道那時候你上任了嗎那時候我上任你上任了但你不知道但這件事沒有報上來沒有報上來所以勞發署發了一封信件給各分署同仁要求填寫表單而且呢他是一個實名制的調查喔他要求同仁問 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
16709.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
16709.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
跟委員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
16733.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
16740.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
那你負責的態度是什麼?你覺得有必要道歉嗎?你知道那些同仁他們同事之間心照不宣都知道誰有來加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
16756.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
16776.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
但呢 寫了又後悔要刪掉 怕自己寫出去會造成單位主管不滿 怕拖累不敢寫 寫了又刪除 最後整個單位很有默契的全部給出空白的表單我現在問 你們發出去之後回函裡面 說自己有加班的有多少人 佔多少比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
16777.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
16803.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
請回覆我們回覆之後我們有加班的是大概10個人左右總共有多少人來總共有多少人有回覆的人在10個人左右那你總共發給多少人嗎我們發給本署跟所署大概2000人左右2000人然後回覆了多少人回覆10位請問部長這是一個什麼樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
16804.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
16813.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
這有符合左院長宣布任命你為部長的時候你的三大期許嗎?你跑到那個你上任的時候跑到了北分署裡面然後留下了你的電話之後這些人也不敢打電話給你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
16828.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
16836.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
其實有確實有有人打電話給你跟你講這件事確實有基層反應這件事所以有人打電話給你告訴你這件事情那你有處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
16837.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
16860.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我們其實有看到所以有請有請業務單位去瞭解這個事情瞭解那有暫停嗎?什麼時候停止的?什麼時候停止這件事情的?你這是無非就是對這些公務員再一次的霸凌讓他們緊張嗎?欸走了一個何佩珊來了一個洪森漢然後繼續霸凌是什麼意思啊?第一個徐委員我不覺得這個調查就叫做霸凌啦我覺得是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
16862.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
16882.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
雖然我覺得說對於調查方法不好或需要改善的部分我們當然願意來改善但我自己認為我不覺得今天發一個調查的問卷下去這就叫做職場霸凌大家都嚇得半死才會給我陳情信那他為什麼不打電話給你要寫陳情信給我 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
16885.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
16895.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
雖然我要說的是說這個方法如果不妥當的地方我們當然願意改善我也會要求先停下來好再來你以為只有這樣嗎11月28號人事室發信告知各單位早上7點40才可以上班打卡下班卡不能超過5點20超過的要提出報告請問有沒有這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
16909.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
16914.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
11月28號人事室寫信給全部的基層機關告訴大家呢7點40以後才能夠打上班卡下班卡不可以超過5點20超過的必須要提出報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
16937.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
16957.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
那也不知道是什麼樣的報告是要送單純的加班申請呢還是說呢又會被抓去罵而且這個是沒有法源依據的要求這樣合理嗎所以呢呃陳情仁表示勞動部發展署各分署如果真心要改為什麼要從調查基層開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
16959.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
16978.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
那部長你可以說明一下就是說第一個人事是因為現在告訴我不知道好沒關係那你們是不是要回去調查有沒有發這封信這封信是誰發的如果有發的話是不是要檢討我會來了解而且因為我今天這個澄清信他分兩個部分嘛同一個人寫的前面一件事情已經被證實了確實有這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
16979.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
17002.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
所以後面他講到的人事是發的這個信那我個人也覺得可能性非常的高我不覺得這個陳情仁他是欺瞞的他是有框騙的我覺得可能性非常的高所以我可以說明就是說我認為人事事可能他是基於他想要去了解現在現存的一些樣態所以想要去這個相關的動作是為了這件事情但是調查的方法規劃的不好可是你看建議讓他當初是怎麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
17008.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
17019.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
他也能意思是告訴你說我要讓你加班但是呢你不能你一定要上下班時間卡要打對嘛但那個人他就只好呢上班的時候打卡下班的時候打卡但他繼續加班啊那所以說你們現在這樣子告知各單位說你7點40打上班卡下班卡不能超過5點20那跟當初現役擁有什麼兩樣你沒有徹底性的去解決加班的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
17034.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
17048.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
那個選對於怎麼樣降低同仁們不必要的加班這樣的負擔其實我們當然會來一樣會來做檢討那我會來跟人事室這邊討論就是說如果真的需要去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
17049.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
17065.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
其實這個人事單位下面的一些目前不管是加班的狀況或者是他如果需要了解的話怎麼找到一個比較合宜的方法我覺得這是在調查方法上面的問題呃我不覺得這個事情一定是上公司這個就是跟這個謝宜蓉一樣我不覺得這是不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
17067.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
17092.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
這是真的不等價的事情啦我覺得但是很多的基層同仁覺得新的部長上來之後你口口聲聲說要幫大家從勞權上面去做考量但是你所做的事情呢除了留下你的電話之外所有同仁還是要實名制的調查大家還是不敢說真話這是現在的基層同仁他們所告訴我們的狀態你先不要回答我因為我還有其他的問題要問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
17093.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
17096.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
這個所謂的霸凌他不只是一個謝宜蓉的霸凌他是謝宜蓉們你要知道這樣子的一個霸凌他不可能是一個人就能夠完成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
17115.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
17131.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
他其實是有一個集團包含了主任秘書陶竹苗的就業服務副分署長監察院國家人權委員會的教育交流組的組長還有勞動力發展署的外勞管理署的專門委員他們都曾經在勞動部的北分署裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
17135.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
17138.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
所以呢我不一一講因為我時間到了那這個報告我會再交給勞動部你們可以看到這個案情上面包含是壓榨同仁然後考積打70分然後呢收受政府補助單位提供的禮品壓榨同仁去寫出國考察報告還幫他自己去寫個人的碩士論文 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
17157.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
17166.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
甚至呢去盯著女性這個可能有涉及到性騷擾的問題還有呢這個要求同仁集資買萬寶龍的鋼筆送給政策要求中午12點站在電梯門口抓誰先離開去吃飯怎麼會有這麼幼稚的人那他後來就離開他覺得這邊很無聊就離開去那個監察院然後呢這個勞動力發展署的外勞管理組的專委 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
17185.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
17210.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
在外勞科長期間用公文打罵同仁內部投訴但遭到吃案蔡孟良去袒護他因為他們曾經是組長跟副組長的關係然後呢追查吹哨者所以我要講的是你今天作為部長你要調查的不只是謝宜蓉還有包括很多1234我現在已經有正式的發 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
17211.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
17222.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
公文給你們喔這個是我發公文給你們請你們要針對其他的部分一起調查因為公務人員上下署裡面在做這些霸凌的越來越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
17224.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
17245.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
學員我這邊讓我做一點說明好不好我們有收到你辦公室來的公文我有收到了這事情有交辦給相關的業務單位也進入到程序裡面處理可是我想講因為這涉及到很多的個案我真的覺得我們在這邊不不宜針對這些個案的細節做過多的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
17249.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
17273.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
因為裡面我也看到有幾位其實他離開勞動部的時間真的蠻久了蠻久又怎樣我的意思是說你要但你說他是謝怡榮們就是說蠻久又怎樣我在外交部的提的三個霸凌案有的還是重啟調查的林佳龍部長也說他願意重啟調查徐委員我想我要說的是這些每一個案子我們都會我們都會想要把它查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
17274.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
17288.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那多久會查清楚?七天?卓榮泰部長說,調查一併都是七天內,可以嗎?我們會把它查清楚,但是我自己覺得在查清楚前,先不宜做標籤化的這樣子的敘述 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
17293.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
17319.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
如果查出來不是如陳前說的這樣其實這對於這些裡面很多的同仁也是不公平但我們會查清楚我們一定會查清楚但在查清楚前我真的不覺得我們要做標籤化的敘述這是我擔心的事情我真的擔心這件事情因為我有看到這些敘述但如果現在就要做標籤化的敘述的話如果查出來真的不是這樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
17321.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
17341.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
那對上面的現在被提到的人我真的覺得不公平但我們會查清楚那如果屬實的話那你現在幫他的背書呢我沒有幫他背書我只是說在調查前不應該先做標籤化的敘述那如果所有的人都像你這樣子說的話那這些案子所有的東西都會被大事化小小事化 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
17342.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
17364.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
過去所有的暴力案件都是因為這樣所以才關關相護的啊過去所有的案件都是因為我們就是發一個公文過去然後私下之後呢大家就覺得說哎呀沒有啦這個都是像我之前在外交部我們以前都在外交國防委員會之前有一個案子就是洛杉磯的案子他是被一個女生被性騷擾的然後呢最後結果是什麼就私下去講說有這件事情嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
17364.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
17382.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
私下講了之後怎麼樣私下講了之後就說因為那個女生呢他聽不太懂中文啊所以這個不是故意的不是故意的利益良善就過去了這一次事件發生之後才說那個女生才看不下去說希望重啟調查林佳龍部長才說好他願意重啟調查因為有心事證然後那個人呢他現在就離那個當時幫忙護航的人他現在也離職了 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
17386.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
17390.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
是確定有這件事情嗎所以如果我們今天沒有把這件事情都攤開來講的話你如果到時候確認沒有這件事情你當然大可以你發新聞稿也好你大聲疾呼也好你都可以還他一個公道但過去就是因為我們什麼事情對於公務人員的加害我們都是默默的把它偷偷給你一個公文然後呢就無聲無息了所以才有這麼多的公務人員的霸凌事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
17410.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
17414.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
現在有公務人員願意出來希望我們幫他發聲我所現在講的每一個案子喔包含我在外交部喔我講國教署喔講海科會喔包含速發部今天正次今天那個速發部的正次他公開道歉他就是有罵別人混蛋 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
17428.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
17453.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
所以我今天我所講的這些東西我都有先查證過所以你不要挑戰我說我今天沒有查證我就有人給我一個資料好像我就隨便拿出來講我都已經先分析過先了解過有沒有發生類似的事情委員我想向你表達的是我們要挑戰你這些案件我們都會進入程序來好好的面對跟調查跟處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
17455.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
17463.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
我其實在看到你們來你的辦公室來含公文的時候我也希望能不能夠因為你你辦公室給我能不能提供給我們更多人事實地務的資訊因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
17467.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
17494.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
我希望能夠有更多人事因為我們要好好調查其實是需要很多人事實地務的證據對啊我會再提供給你啊但是要在我今天質詢完畢之後啊對如果可以的話可以提供給我更多人事實地務的證據我們才能夠好好處理這件事情但我要說的還是是說我們在這些處理這些調查的過程裡面在真正調查出來結果前我知道你的意思但我必須要先把這件事公開之後我才能確保你不會吃案嘛因為我不敢相信任何一個部長了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
17495.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
17516.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
對吧,即便我跟你過去是在同一個委員會同事,我也不敢去相信公務人員不會再持案,所以我必須得今天先公開出來之後,我才敢把所有東西交給你,請你去調查,因為7天之後你給我什麼東西,我才能去評估你們到底有沒有好好調查呀因為你的辦公室的文,來到我的辦公室以後我也看過,我可以跟你說,絕對不會持案 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
17517.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
17535.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
我可以跟你 絕對不會刺案所以你現在只要告訴我說你要多久時間之內可以給我們一個答覆我們在這些資訊證據之下絕對不會刺案但我要跟局委員表達我們也需要更多的資訊因為我收到的訊息就像你你這上面呈現的這些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
17536.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
17536.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
謝謝習委員 謝謝部長來繼續我們請劉喜廷 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
17567.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
17569.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
謝謝主席,紅部長有請部長午安,針對802我只問一件事,就剛剛講這麼多案例,顯然社會大眾對於行政端的內部調查還是缺乏信心,你支持國會用聽證調查的方式來處理這個事? |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
17594.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
17610.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
這是國會的...國會在這支援心法裡面行使的權益當然我們都尊重阿一樣你跟何前部長一樣就四個字尊重國會這樣嗎這個是你要不要積極配合這個是國會的權限阿是國會的權限如果成立你會不會積極配合就算國會不調查我們也會積極調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
17612.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
17629.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
這你調查跟我們調查不太一樣但我剛講就之所以公部門會這麼多人然後大家對行政調查害怕就是因為公部門內部有他的文化這我想您也擔任過立委其實溝通也都了解今天不管國會調查不調查或國會用什麼態度我們都會積極調查積極調查那我希望未來如果有機會你要配合國會調查可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
17631.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
17656.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
就是按照按照法治法規來當行政部門當然該配合的就必須配合啊該配合繼續配合好這個你除了要處理這個霸凌的這個爛攤子之外你現在很多工作要做啊這個本席一直都非常關心勞工放假的問題啊這個稍早不管是民眾黨陳昭志委員或國民黨廖偉祥委員其實大家都有去提到您過去在綠盟的期間對於這個我們國家的放假政策多有指教這個包含這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
17658.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
17673.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
2016年10月25號在蠻蠻不錯的你說勞基法修法應該增加負載吃緊緊急假日就如果說空污很嚴重啊電廠要稅休的時候乾脆就大家來放假給勞工多放一天假然後還可以幫台灣省省電這是你2016年講過的2016年10月你講說7天假不應該跟週休日掛鉤啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
17677.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
17693.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
掛鉤是政黨的權力操作左手給右手拿應該要切開來不應該這樣處理2017年你評論勞基法二修修二說灌老闆在一例一休之外又得到了彈性工時的後門順手再砍掉7天的國定假日這樣就沒有申訴了灌老闆一家獨贏啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
17695.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
17711.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
那其他的我就不多再贅述齁包含到最近齁你代表民進黨那時候你還是副幹事長嘛齁代表民進黨出席這個五一勞工的遊行這個當台下高呼勞工團體跟這個協安勞工高呼還我七天假的時候你說把這個聲音帶回去現在也不用帶回去了應該很清楚了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
17712.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
17730.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
接下來這個事你打算怎麼處理在勞工放假的部分你是要贊成我們把7天國定假日恢復回來這是一種還是你要用比如說勞基法修訂增加特休假也是一種或者是我剛剛舉例你都講了有所謂的這個負載吃緊假或者是剛剛有委員提到的所謂的身心調適假新增價別你要用哪一種方式來把這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
17731.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
17733.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
我當然支持讓勞工降低工時的負擔但確實現在關於期間假的討論這當然就涉及到國定假日調整的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
17747.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
17767.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
但確實現在我要跟大家說 國定價值調整的問題現在是在今天節日實施辦法的法規裡面這其實是內政部主管的法規我們其實是內政委員會的委員我當然還先藉質詢的時間趕快問一下勞動部的態度因為這跟勞動權沒有關係我們當然願意把勞工的各種聲音反映給內政部各種聲音反映給內政部 所以你會怎麼反映給內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
17768.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
17783.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
就是各種就只要是勞工勞方來的各種聲音或期待反映給內政部啊現在勞團大部分的勞基本上不分這個屬性啦大部分的勞團都主張恢復期間假你會把這樣的主張帶給內政部嗎該反映就反映啊該反映就反映一天都不少 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
17784.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
17804.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
就是該反映給內政部就讓大家知道說確實現在很多工會對這事情的看法是什麼該反映就反映啊該反映就反映你會不會幫忙堅持如果說其他部會有壓力經濟部有意見啊對不對或是其他人有意見然後要求你退卻的時候你會不會守穩勞動部長立場堅持站在這個這個法規目前的主管還是在內政部手上討論的平台我們把意見會反映給當然反映給專關主管的部會嗎這個有一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
17811.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
17829.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
算是勉強算是有回答啦但是跟這個你在民間毫無包袱的時代顯然有蠻巨大的落差我們希望看到的是2016年2017年的這個洪森漢副秘書長這樣子的態度你現在站在勞動部的部長的位置你就守好勞工的立場這是本席給你的期許這第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
17830.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
17851.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
這個前任部長何佩珊上任的時候我們討論勞保年金改革的問題那他們講說撥補也是改革政府本來就要負最終支付責任那當然嘛這是一個政策宣示那當然很多的勞工團體跟勞工朋友都非常關心這樣的事情那現在這個因為特殊的狀況何佩珊部長就因故去職了那新的你上任之後這樣子的一個政策方向會不會維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
17853.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
17871.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
請你給大家一個說法呃我想現在政策就是政府會負最終責任現在政策就是明確的就是會負最終責任吼現在的政策面就是政府是負最終的責任所以包括也是因為要政府負最終責任所以包括現在包括撥補等等等是去負這個責任的做法制這樣的方向不會改變對不對不會OK好謝謝好謝謝林委員那接續我們請戴思寶委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
17890.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
17891.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
謝謝主席 有請黃部長黃部長你好我請教一下是你接任部長是院長直接打給你還是老柯打給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
17916.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
17939.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
很難回答喔但是行政院為什麼是柯總召打 不會是柯總召 行政院 但是行政院邀請我打啊你是立法委員啊 欸這柯總召是民進黨團總召啊他是何沛山的老闆啊 他打給你也是很正常啊 甘甜的當然不是他打給我沒有 他沒有打給你他沒有打給我啊接的時候他沒有跟你講過話沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
17942.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
17943.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
這個委員可以問柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
17952.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
17957.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
所以都沒有就對了奇怪這樣這麼重要你今天會做錯老實講就是柯建民給你很大的花費空間了花帕花種這樣種在地上不是出賣自己的靈魂拼到哭哭拼才有這個部長還不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
17976.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
17996.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
當然有阿你這個出賣靈魂有名的阿三階就是最好的例子雖然你解釋什麼天然氣那叫歪理你明明是環保的運動人士阿結果三階要保護藻礁結果你又後調就是為了民進黨的黨意 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
18000.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
18007.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
這個人可以為了黨意出賣自己的靈魂一輩子就奮鬥你要還團這個東西你這樣子就會讓我們覺得說你做這個補丟就不可能期待太多了因為隨時都會出賣靈魂你講一下你不要在我頭你說你在我頭我怎麼知道你的意思那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
18022.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
18036.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
那我現在因為我現在身份我就覺得我已經我不是已經很適合去談什麼三接不三接我現在的身份不一定很適合去談這些問題但是你過了經理都要談了我們當然有有權利來來提出質疑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
18038.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
18041.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
你知道嗎你知道嗎現在因為謝宜龍的事情讓執政黨不滿意度人家處理民調最新的民調今天的民調45.6%不滿意度 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
18069.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
18092.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
你下來面對兩個一個很大的問題第一個 霸凌的事情第二個 你的這個就業安定基金急軟又有個待機這兩個問題 我就第一個先問你喔霸凌的事情喔 我也去跟你們勞動部要資料啊 你們都不給啊好多立委都反應要資料都不給啊 然後你們的次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
18094.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
18095.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
為什麼立委要不到資料因為檢調 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
18122.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
18125.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
我跟跟賴委員說明吼跟賴委員說明吼現在在 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
18131.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
18156.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
現在在檢調確實有來調卷那檢調清楚讓我們知道說針對採購跟標案的部分希望我們暫緩內部的行政調查但霸凌的霸凌的事情的本身或不當管理的事情本身的話我們是可以我們是在做行政相關行政調查的那為什麼立委要不到資料我可能跟內委再確認一下是什麼樣的資料好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
18157.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
18175.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
好幾個立委反映的都有不到資料但是我說要確認一下那個資料的標的是什麼但確實如果是跟820來這樣子好了齁你是來自於這個很走基層的啦齁環保的這個團體這樣奮鬥的來自於立委都是非常基層的你要不要因為你們現在調查都會關關相護大家擔心關關相護 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
18182.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
18187.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
就是上面一直壓底下來 今天就是官威相互啊才出了一個謝宜龍的事情啊你要不要公開承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
18191.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
18218.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
你這段時間兩個禮拜以內你的信箱全部打開讓所有的人跟你分立在勞動部裡面跟你分立全部open給大家那個跟賴委員說明我其實在上任上週其實就已經提供給我們基層一個我專屬的信箱跟手機的號碼其實這幾天的時間一個多禮拜的時間裡面其實蠻多部內的同仁就跟我們反映過各種建議其實就有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
18219.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
18226.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
其實我就是希望要讓因為這有點在這個非常時期裡面在這非常時期裡面直接就可以讓我們你這個open的時間多長從上禮拜二準備維持多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
18232.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
18255.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
一直下去我覺得不要不需要什麼前面的就是比如說一個月或者兩個月以內我也收到很多人家跟你們控訴的資料只是我還在整理啊因為這些資料坦白說現在就是說這個方法我知道這是一個特別特別時期的做法這不是一個長久的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
18257.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
18281.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我們還是希望能夠把一個正常的機制趕快給優化給建立好我覺得這是這是正辦啦這是一個非常時期的維持一個月可以嗎其實不需要我自己覺得維持維持一個月OK啊就是就是OK一個月齁其實大家願意跟我們第二個第二個來來來現在大家懷疑高度殖利你的就業岸田基金我仔細的讀了一下讀了好幾遍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
18282.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
18289.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
這個包括許明春這個用他的這個錢去開演唱會啊這個奇奇怪怪的錢花了八千多萬啊你們沒有法則耶說濫用就業安定基金沒有法則 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
18299.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
18318.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
沒有罰者主事者就是勞動部長主席是勞動部長然後我翻篇了所有的辦法說被挪用了被不正當的使用了有沒有處罰沒有任何的處罰就變成你們的小金庫安安用力的擠去手伸進去拿你知道現在多少錢你知道嗎我知道多少錢你講一下多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
18323.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
18323.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
18339.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
18364.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
那個跟賴委員說明齁現在在救援安定基金裡面其實有涉及到標案跟採購的部分檢調現在也在調閱我們會全力配合但是他違法不違法坦白說我們自己沒有辦法自己就說這是違法不違法這確實是需要有一定的司法單位來去做判定我們都會全力配合那我也說了只要有具體不法事證該送證封的該送檢調的我們都不會護短 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
18369.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
18388.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
這些包括上一任的部長那個人相關的只要有涉及到不法事項的該送你還不要在這個場合公開承諾你不會去動用他一毛錢可以嗎那個不是私人用你當然公家的不一樣私人去用他我私人絕對不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
18391.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
18414.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
不要用其他名譽去動他一毛錢包括買了動用他的錢去送禮幹什麼都不會用這個跟賴委員說明我在我們在上任的第二天其實就已經針對部內的這個不當的送禮文化其實跟基層說我們我們搞這個好了時間到了我很快的把其他的小問題問完了這個勞保年金啊我們撥補了兩千六百多兩千五百多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
18416.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
18417.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
明年還要撥1300億等於撥了3000多億快4000億了 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
18422.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
18447.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
我們的負債13兆每人的備債56萬這是勞保年金的改革好分工了我們可以下一頁你再當立委你有連署喔你剛才沒有回答牛委員的的一個問題我現在就希望你明確回答你支不支持勞保的財務政府負最終的責任現在的政策就是勞保的財務是政府來負最終責任現在政策就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
18448.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
18453.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
沒有立法喔沒有立法我希望你承諾嘛你提案就容易通過我們勞動部來推動立法好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
18462.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
18477.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
現在的政策就是不管有入法沒入法我現在勞動部的做法上面跟行政院我們就是用這個方向來執行我們的政策的不管有入法沒入法現在就是這樣做的最後一個小問題喔那個五一勞動節戰不戰成全國放假這個要你問啊要你回答啊你是勞動部的啊我問了人事長他說問你你說要問他我到底是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
18490.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
18511.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
人事長人事長一共在跟你們協調這個五一勞動就關於國定假日的部分國定假日現在只有勞工放假其他人沒有放很不方便喔有些公務員都不放假的這個很多行業不放假的我們會來跟人事單位做一些討論你贊不贊成全體放假 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
18512.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
18514.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
因為這涉及到其他部會的權責所以我們願意跟他們來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
18536.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
18561.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
讓人去做這是原來陳建仁院長前院長他答應我要從今年開始放棄結果今年沒有放又跳票老實講勞動部做得不夠啦這一部分勞動部出一點力這個造福台灣人民謝謝委員指教好謝謝賴委員謝謝部長那接續我們請葉元之委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
18567.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
18570.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
麻煩請那個紅山部長謝謝議員好部長好我相信你看到那個救安基金被這樣濫用你自己可能也覺得非常不適當那中間可能也會有不法的問題剛剛看說您是會有不法會移送檢調對不對就是說如果有具體的不法事證什麼樣叫做不法的具體事證 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
18592.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
18618.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
就是說如果當然有很明確說是怎麼樣貪瀆的但是要貪瀆的嗎只涉於貪瀆是不是就是說具體的不法事證嗎對這是哪一類的到目前為止你的瞭解我們目前瞭解我們其實現在在做一些項目上面檢視是有看到不合宜的地方就不合宜我們我現在我們現在看到會有一些不合宜的地方對那如果許民村他挪用這個錢跑去開演唱會這有是不法還是不合宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
18622.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
18628.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
這邊會有一些可能是外界觀感問題或不合宜的問題可是是不是不法這件事情其實就像剛剛在講的這場音樂會這場音樂會目前檢調已經在查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
18633.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
18657.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
部長我這樣問是因為救安基金一開始設立目的應該是保障本國勞工穩定就業但主要的目標是這個當然還有其他目標那有很多弱勢的家庭包括重症患者其實他們去找他們請外籍看護去找這個救援基金他們其實我覺得也是不得已的因為家裡就有人有重症患者他必須要請外籍看護因為請本國的看護的話真的非常的貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
18658.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
18667.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那在這種情況之下要他們去繳就業基金結果繳了之後被勞動部這樣濫用我覺得國人通通都不能夠接受啦那所以假設啦我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
18669.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
18691.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
讓這些所謂的重症患者如果他必須要請外籍看護繳救基金我們讓他們減免部長你支持嗎現在低收跟弱勢的家庭目前就是我知道我是針對比如說重度失能的因為他們其實家裡有重度失能的人其實我覺得也是對家庭來說也是一個很大的負擔 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
18692.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
18707.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
但是他們有繳就業基金結果被勞動部的高官拿去開演唱會啦拿去裝潢豪華辦公室我覺得社會沒辦法接受這樣的一個這樣的一個做法啦岳仁我覺得我們對哪些範疇這個範疇免繳就案訂金哪些範疇比較適合擴大這事情我們可以來討論是不是所以你認為這是可以討論的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
18715.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
18739.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
我認為這是可以討論但是就是說到底範疇要開到多大那目前是弱勢跟中低目前我知道我們當然討論就是沒有開放的部分因為現在大家外界還發現救安基金是這樣被爛用嘛比如說拿去買咖啡拿去買信封拿去買影印紙拿去清垃圾這些本來勞動部你內部的公務預算就可以編列為什麼要用到救安基金呢跟議員說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
18741.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
18761.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
確實長期以來勞動部部本部的預算真的是偏低但你不能用到救安基金嘛所以很多過去長期以來就是變成是用救安基金在支應很多就不可以嘛你們勞動部如果預算不夠你要去爭取而不是用挪用救安基金這兩回事那其他部會也會覺得他的預算不夠啊他們就沒有這樣的一個基金可以挪用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
18762.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
18785.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
委員我們待會會來跟你講你第一個我覺得不能這樣挪用第二個現在大家覺得這是一個黑箱因為以前大家都不知道一知道就炸鍋了你同不同意把這些細目公開就到底救安基金那麼多錢每一年幾百億到底用在哪些地方這些細目可不可以公開讓國人知道因為我們現在會是在機制面我們會來不是機制面我現在問說可不可以公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
18786.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
18812.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
可不可以公開因為現在政府要公開透明嘛你既然被人家質疑這麼誇張你公開一下部長其實我對你是很有期許的我覺得你會大刀過斧做一些不一樣的事情會政治革新你願不願意公開救安基金的細目現在在採購招標的網站上面其實一些資訊沒有那是有標案才有但是如果它是比如說輕垃圾這不可能有標案吧補助費也公開了比如買咖啡豆這不可能有公開吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
18812.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
18838.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
可不可以公開啦我們想要知道說你到底還買什麼嘛你們買抱枕啊有沒有買一些那個其他的東西啊因為我們會在機制面沒有不打關機制面的強化我們會提出一個強化的方案我問的是有能不能公開就回答我問題就好機制歸機制能不能夠公開因為像你那個咖啡豆你的信封影子這些在標案上是看不到的現在標案上面或補串上面其實都公開了沒有沒有沒有這些東西看不到這些東西看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
18839.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
18866.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
你能不能夠把整個公開讓大家看一下嘛對你來說又沒有差又不是你在用你就答應公開讓大家看一下會怎麼樣議員我沒有我沒有遮掩的意思部長你公開一下現在就算有問題也不會摔到你頭上嘛議員我沒有要遮掩的意思好那你就公開一下因為大家其實已經有公開的部分我們其實就公開了那是有公開部分我們現在知道沒公開部分嘛沒公開部分才是大家最想知道有貓膩的嘛可不可以公開嘛就這件事情就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
18867.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
18882.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
各位,我不太懂為什麼不能公開部長?我不懂欸該公開的我們都會公開什麼叫該公開?該公開不公開也是你在決定啊因為我覺得重點是...你想要掩蓋就不公開啊你不想掩蓋就公開啊要有機制面的檢視啦好好好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
18884.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
18885.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
好 謝謝葉委員 謝謝部長繼續我們請楊瓊英委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
18928.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
18941.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
首先請問,霸凌案後現在大概是一個月了,到底我們現在的狀況是怎麼樣?因為我們看到這個一個月當中,很離譜的一件事情。 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
18942.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
18957.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
部長你知道嗎在你還沒有擔任部長你是立法委員的時候那一篇所謂的利益良善的那一篇這個目的良善的那一篇你認為適不適當他的檢討報告那篇檢討報告我們看過了嘛當然他不盡完善不盡完善他目前還在哪裡你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
18970.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
18984.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
這份報告當然不盡完善那我我們現在已經重啟調查請針對本席的提問你知道那一份報告在什麼地方可以再看到嗎他已經公開了對他公開了現在還在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
18985.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
19009.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
在哪裡的意思是在你勞動部的官網但是他是全文公開的他早就全文公開了在你勞動部的官網仍舊維持目前你們要重新調查但是現在還在你的官網上你只要點了你就可以看到目的良善你這份報告你身為部長你認為這一份是不盡完善的嗎對 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
19010.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
19032.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
是不禁完善,好,不禁完善,現在還在你的官網上請問,被罵爆了之後呢,請問到底為什麼陳情的管道都失靈了呢?為什麼?因為你在當時擔任這個立法委員的時候,你也曾經有這個語言說,其實這個事情你早知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
19033.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
19053.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
不是無姓公務員的事情我說的不是無姓公務員的事情我說的是謝義榮的不當的管理的傳聞你就已經早有傳聞嗎有傳聞我聽到有耳聞傳聞你看喔都是外圍知道喔當時的勞動部都不知道喔是 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
19055.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
19075.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
你勇於承認當時的勞動部不知道當時都是外圍知道為什麼這個政府會變成如此應該勞動部是勞工的靠山怎麼會如此怎麼會勞動部的長官變為慣老闆這樣的事件發生了這樣的憾事心很痛啊現在怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
19076.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
19095.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
所以我們現在在重新調查我們希望能夠更進一步的把事實還原把事情還原把事實還原然後也比較知道我們過去到底犯了什麼錯在了解犯了什麼錯的狀況下面才能夠提出改善的做法你說的希望知道以往犯了什麼錯因為以往大家針對這個事項都認為勞動部一開始就想要輕輕的放過 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
19100.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
19114.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
你會同意輕輕的放過嗎?當然不同意,絕對沒有這件事情。好,所以你重新調查。那調查的內容,因為上一份是失敗的調查,所以要請教,勞動部到底有沒有持案?有沒有持案?包庇的為師,大使是誰處理? |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
19122.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
19147.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
是誰決策都會納入這些的因子會納入在你的調查嗎因為本席在商議院的部長我已經提出但是我看不到所以我希望能夠在你有為的作為以上剛剛本席所說的你會納入在你的調查的因子內嗎請做說明跟姚委員說明吼現在調查報告的因為每一份報告還是會有它的範疇這個調查報告的範疇基本上我們會針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
19152.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
19153.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
這個就是重要的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
19168.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
19196.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
所以你必須要去調查清楚所以剛剛本席具體建議的勞動部到底有沒有持案那包庇的為師到底是什麼那誰處理誰決策本席認為這些都必須納入你要調查的因子之內委員我們關於申訴管道過去失靈的部分我們現在正在做檢討本席所提問的這事項你贊不贊成要列入在你的 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
19197.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
19212.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
的範疇之內調查的因子之內因為我們不希望官官相負你現在不回答本席我希望你聽到能夠納入要問你一句話我們絕對不會吃案然後我們會非常非常切實的來調查你吃不吃案那是另外一個議題針對你現在是部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
19215.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
19230.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
要針對立委的提問這些事項本行希望能夠納入在你調查的範疇之內你才能夠真正的水落石出所以你剛剛告訴我你們絕對不會吃案那以往有沒有吃你要去調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
19232.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
19248.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
所以本席要請教就你看這個事件以往你是幾天前你是立法委員現在是部長你認為何佩珊到底有沒有關關相呼有沒有有沒有這個有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
19252.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
19276.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
這位委員我覺得我們從機制我們會比較從機制面來看待這事情你以前是立法委員阿你現在是部長你更有power有權力阿你要查明真相阿到底他有沒有有沒有觀觀相互如果機制設計的不妥當就容易出問題你現在解讀是他有包庇有觀觀相互機制設置不妥當可以這麼解讀嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
19277.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
19279.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
我認為是不盡完善的 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
19300.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
19310.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
不禁完善就是有問題嘛所以你直接回答就在本期最後一個議題請教你您說的您上任之後您說要實施什麼實施尊嚴 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
19312.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
19315.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
會不會入法?在你當任部長你認為要不要入法?入法什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
19341.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
19348.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
你說的是哪一個標的入法哪一個就你剛問我什麼事情你認為這個霸凌事件要不要入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
19349.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
19368.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
你要讓他有尊嚴啊尊嚴的勞動這是核心價值因為我們現在在法規的修訂上面 職安法不足以你自己擔任過立法委員你現在是部長職安法不足以去保護所以在法的立場你會不會有討論的空間我們現在正在推動跟規劃防治職場霸凌的法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
19375.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
19393.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
就是提高到母法的位階提高到法律的位階來處理這事情那請問你會不會開公聽會當然啊那請問大概多久時間因為勞工很希望能夠看到有所作為有所方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
19395.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
19423.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
因為有一個時間我們在版本我們其實剛才在前面的委員會裡面有講到說我希望能夠在下個會期能夠提出下個會期來提出相關的草案相關的草案就是為陸法好好的去做一個整體性的一個檢討因為我們現在看到比如說五億勞動錢到底要不要放假會不會是國定假日就像立法院一樣我們是廣義的公務人員但是我們的助理是勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
19424.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
19442.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
那這個整個社會的氛圍怪怪的在運作上面他沒有效能所以你會不會考慮建議五一勞動節全面放假那個跟委員部長這些相關的討論我們當然都會跟其他的權責單位一起來討論我們都願意來討論都願意來討論你的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
19446.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
19465.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
你的立場呢是朝方向因為這涉及到這個其他的權責單位所以我們都願意一起來討論當然所以你的立場也就是跟以往你說的要還原7天的國定假日那你目前的立場你現在是部長是不是你的立場還是一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
19467.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
19490.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
跟當時你接受陳請你說你要把這個恢復七天假帶進行政這個行政以及地方部門我當時是說會把這樣的新生帶到行政部門裡面去那現在你是有行政部門之一你會不會要還原恢復這七天的這一個五天假日在降低勞工工時負擔上我當然支持支持齁好我們一起加油謝謝謝謝楊委員謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
19495.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
19514.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
接續委員請羅廷偉委員歡迎好 是不是有請召委 有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
19521.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
19548.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
委員好部長好部長請問一下你是局內人還是民演人還是賴清德派來的要清掃局戲的清道夫我們跑一波影看一下局內人民演人清道夫我眼睛開過刀眼睛開過刀針對問題回答嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
19551.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
19576.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我現在就是勞動部長我想我要告訴你你在這個過程當中你有很多的資料為什麼外界可以馬上知道有人說是因為勞動部裡面有很多的局系他們都會把相關的資料來讓我們外界知道但我要說的是外界都在放大關注你的一舉一動今天的專題報告扣掉封面三張A4 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
19578.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
19600.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
了無新意夫言了事上一份報告說遭受職場霸凌情勢的得向本部機關長官單位主管人事提出申訴跟通報今天的報告說完善了申訴制度申訴管道多元化明訂申訴電話傳真電子信箱專用信箱等申訴管道請問部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
19601.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
19630.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
我個人認為這些文字上沒有什麼太大的差異就這幾天來說我看到你最大的政策就是公佈了你的電話就這樣而已所以請問我們部長上任第10天你是馬上被官僚的系統說服了嗎?針對政府部門霸凌案卓院長態度非常強硬好人他在做說一個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
19631.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
19647.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
再給你多一個禮拜就是今天今天所有的委員都在說好聽話他在講真正做不出來又是一回事到底是他講好聽話敷衍人民還是你的能力有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
19648.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
19673.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
到底誰要道歉我相信我都有看你也有加碼去邀請一些人來做一個訪問我都知道可是我的意思是說卓院長對外公佈講的這麼好聽一個禮拜處理我們引頸期盼結果換來的是又一個禮拜好因為你上任可以體諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
19674.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
19687.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
再給你一個禮拜現在又不行又要下個禮拜下個禮拜是禮拜一還是禮拜五我們下禮拜公佈我也希望盡快下個禮拜是禮拜一還是禮拜五我們也希望盡快那可不可以禮拜一 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
19692.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
19704.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
所以我要講的是每一個文字自治都要到重點而不是卓院長講的很好聽我們引起期盼結果現在做不到所以現在是卓院長要道歉還是你要道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
19707.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
19735.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
那個羅永我們現在的工作就是把這個調查希望盡力的部長今天來到未完委員會我們是來專案報告不是來聽你講鬼故事的今天我們大家都知道也有昭之委員也有提到你之前在所謂的鬼故事在政論節目有提到你跟誰反映你也不願意去公佈你跟誰反映到現在你還不願意說出嗎當時你所謂的聽到鬼故事 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
19737.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
19762.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
沈大豪問你你跟誰反應你就說勞動部的高層到今天我想問的是縱容而且默許甚至沒有作為我先不提到你當你反應到了這些人當中他們沒有作為沒有去及時的反應處理這件事情這些人你還不公佈所以我再一次問你在政論節目你所提到的你有向上反應鬼故事那個人是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
19763.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
19776.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
我向勞動部反映你還是講勞動部嘛你不講人民嘛勞動部就是一個機關這個機關有什麼人你不願意講這就是官官相護嘛這就是官僚嘛才10天我們見義勇為紅委員不見了變官僚體系的紅部長這就是東扯西扯 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
19789.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
19813.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
所以你到底是紅委員還是紅部長今天在我們這邊備詢的是紅部長還是紅委員民眾心中自有一把尺所以不要一直在那邊東扯西扯沒有行政權也給你行政權了現在你還調查不出來好給你加碼時間問你一些細節你不願意說我要再一次提醒部長你坐在這裡你是紅部長了 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
19814.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
19843.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
不是紅委員整個勞動部歸你管現在都有行政權還查不出來或者是還不願意透露細節讓全民知道當部長就是一個很好的照妖鏡走過的路一路一路都會幫你檢視出來第二個我要跟你探討一件事紅部長院長對你這麼器重想請問一下你知道救安基金的用途有哪些嗎我相信有其他的委員都問過你了你可以講大概幾項嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
19845.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
19847.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
可以看到今天我們大家都在琢磨就業安定基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
19875.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
19886.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
用在裝潢用在一些狗屁刀招的事情花了人民的納稅錢這是我們現在最生氣的一件事情請問聽許明春唱歌是提升勞工福祉嗎?部長你覺得是嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
19891.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
19919.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
那個跟更多人報告齁其實現在在救安基金的支用的的機制我知道你會說合宜合法沒關係我都可以我都聽過了但是我現在講是民眾觀感不佳就是部分有部分的橋段我不管合不合宜啊當列舉出來就業安定基金民眾的大觀感就是覺得他是應該使用在勞工福利 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
19920.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
19942.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
但我們聽許明春唱歌可以提供勞工福祉嗎?你直接告訴我可以跟不可以你覺得還有讓勞工提升福祉嗎?有讓外界觀感不佳的地方我當然會檢討這就是我們要的答案所以我們不要東扯西扯就直接就問題來回答那再來我問你外籍移工被遣返 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
19944.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
19952.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
從1月到現在所支出的就業安定基金的費用、機票費給這些外籍移工遣返的費用累積到多少錢了?詳細的數字我們可能還跟業務單位確認到現在還在業務單位確認就業安定基金今天一整天都在考這一題現在問你一個數字你們還不知道還沒有人上來救啊隨便google查一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
19974.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
19981.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
移工、機票、就業安定基金一到十月媒體報導說三千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
19984.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
20011.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
我先問一下部長,你知不知道就業安定基金被挪用作為移工遣返的機票費用?呃,各位報告,因為這其實涉及整體用移工管理的事務在法定上面移工管理的事務是可以致用的我當然知道,又是合宜不合宜嗎?觀感不佳而已啊但是我現在的問題是移民署現在抓到的這些移工移民署現在用救福法60條來跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
20014.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
20042.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
說你要來買單那你變公務預算啊你為什麼用就業安定基金那個因為我們救福法裡面其實就有說勞工移工管理相關的事務那你就應該編列公務預算正常之印我支持你我沒有說不行但是不要用在就業安定基金因為人民的觀感真的很不好我們應該要跟現在你有行政權你應該要反映行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
20043.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
20056.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
移工遣返的問題已經越來越大宗甚至有的因為時間快到了他已經沒有居留權他現在有很多人就直接檢舉他買機票不用擔心因為政府會幫他出所以就有所謂的開始檢舉的這個亂象 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
20061.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
20086.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
我支持抓移工違法的移工但是我現在問題是用就業安定基金不斷的支出我剛剛問你1到10月3000多萬就業安定基金來支應所謂的移工機票遣返你覺得合理嗎?那個 羅遠其實在救福法的60條裡面就有講到說這個移工遣返由就業安定基金先行墊付那你有還他錢了嗎?墊付以後要不要再還他錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
20092.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
20096.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
先行店鋪有沒有要還就業安定基金這是重點啊所以我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
20107.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
20123.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
不管是電付不管是資印你如果是資印你也確定要用資印你把它排公務預算我支持你去修法你用就業安定基金今天我點出的問題你不要告訴我法將定民眾觀感能接受嗎而現在亂象出來了我們不用修法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
20124.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
20133.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
我剛剛有提到他用救福法60條我都知道他用救福法60條但我要講的是民眾觀感不佳我跟部長講那我點出問題您願不願意回去討論有可能要又來修法嗎這不是我的手機 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
20142.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
20169.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
我們的行政部門現在確實必須是按照救福法60條裡面來去做執行我懂但是民眾觀感不佳媒體報導出來以後直接給你下一個大標說就業安定基金使用在這個上面上全民都覺得很憤慨要修法要去改變這就是你要改革我們要你來當紅部長就是希望你有所突破啊所以今天我提出這個問題我剛剛一開始就開宗明義講移民署直接用救福法60條 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
20171.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
20188.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
他用的是合法我沒有說不合法但是合不合宜民眾官板加不加這是我們要後續要探討的一個問題所以我想各部會用救安基金一直挖錢出去一直搬出去給各部會用部長為什麼勞動部要一直給面子給各部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
20190.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
20218.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
就像你說的他寫在了就業服務法第60條電付我現在還要追你你有沒有回去還這一筆錢所以我希望今天各部會都很關心各個委員都很關心就業安定基金我希望就業安定基金真的不要再變成小金庫我也期許勞動部長就業安定基金的錢我們很關注還有所有的私人家庭也請我要再一次跟你轉達 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
20219.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
20247.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
他們希望看到你能夠為失能者家庭一起發聲你們在當紅委員的過程當中為外勞的人權我尊重但是他們也擔心一昧的只幫外勞說話沒有去照顧到本勞以及所謂的失能者家庭這個平衡點能不能重新拿捏我並不是只支持外勞移工我是支持勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
20248.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
20248.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
最後我還有一個問題想請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
20272.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
20276.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
目前勞動部目前對於現在的這個併購的方案目前拿出來的併購的方案我們當然現在還 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
20304.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
20315.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
可不可以更直接開宗明義的講支持或不支持這樣就好我做結尾我們目前是反對的謝謝你謝謝謝謝羅廷慧委員謝謝部長繼續我們請張祺凱委員歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
20336.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
20338 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
希望今天不是震撼教育不過我看你的報告真的除了封面之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
20355.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
20367.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
薄薄三章本來以為今天會有大刀寇武的有點小失望而且更重要的我剛聽你說你說那個一些相關的這個法案的這個修改跟提出來要等到下會期啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
20369.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
20388.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
為什麼那麼久?這左院長不是就講說上個禮拜就講說一個禮拜內霸凌案子各部都處理完嗎?最後延一個禮拜啊已經太慢了啊欸現在緩霸凌已經變成風起雲湧變成一個運動沒有看見各個部會那麼多這個霸凌案是不是要再快一點點?現在火燒眉毛了可以等到你下會期再提法案嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
20388.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
20416.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
那個跟委員說明確實現在在霸凌防治的法規上面是不足的但這部分我們其實並沒有任何拖延禮拜一我們的治安署其實已經邀請相關的專家學者來提供意見我們現在會診中但確實這部法要修尤其是要在母法要定它其實涉及到蠻複雜的修法工程尤其是裡面相關的定義尤其是霸凌樣態的定義上面這事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
20418.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
20440.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
需要我們會積極但要很審慎而且下會期不要偷到不是什麼2月1號開始的會期我們絕對會很積極我也是善意提醒因為過幾天你再過段時間再來大家還是問你嘛因為外界的氣氛很大這個時間點要經得起考驗那我現在提醒你的現在在各個立法委員都接到很多啊你看各個部會裡面都有大家都在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
20442.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
20471.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
因為沉默以前很多人沉默了沉默變成常態所以霸凌就變成這種文化了現在已經大道寇要趕快改我最近接到很多案子我問一個比較重要的樣態今天我特別要提醒的就是我們的女性特別是懷孕的女性我接到一個我們政府機關的一個個案他在懷孕准媽媽結果那段時間疫情連要在家裡面連要在家裡面居家上班都被他的主管刁難了 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
20473.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
20487.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
部長我今天能不能非常明確的從你這邊得到一個答案你看一下不是只有單獨這個個案你看104人力營覽最近公佈的10月份職場姓北友善調查發現61.9的女性受訪者 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
20488.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
20510.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
他說 最近這一年 公司最近這一年因為性別而受到不平等待遇超過有五成認為有什麼升遷的問題懷孕的問題結婚育兒的問題連要請個特別休假的這個問題都受到不公平的待遇我覺得你們很明確的對你做一個要求勞動部對於女性在職場受到不公平待遇特別是 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
20511.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
20520.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
有身孕的女性請假問題還有她公平的這個問題你做出一個比較明確的指引跟規範可不可以那個跟跟文說明齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
20521.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
20547.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
其實你現在講的是就業歧視的部分其實就業歧視的部分其實我們有相關的法規那只要市政很明確該開法的我想我們就會來處理所以就這個個案剛剛來檢舉這個個案可能最近就有可能開法了那現在更重要我們從制度面去解決問題所以部長我今天就提醒你針對這個除了法令的這個落實之外要盡量重視這個問題好不好當然來另外我問你剛剛這個救安基金啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
20548.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
20572.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
變成小金庫這個問題你剛剛已經回答過你說他有主要用個三個用途嗎對不對在就法裡面三個用途那現在很多今天很多立委都問你了飲餐會不符合買咖啡都不符合垃圾清印也不符合你現在該做什麼動作你這好像回答了一句社會觀感不佳你是不是應該回去看一下預算法預算法25條跟95條如果預算項目不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
20578.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
20588.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
你亂去挪用這個錢是應該去追回來的吧對不對而且老實講你現在不是有社會觀感不佳你這筆錢老不然連審計部都過不了 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
20591.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
20609.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
那個跟委員報告齁其實這部分目前檢調已經有相關的在查查了那我們會全力的配合那確實現在在名目上面如果其實有不符合的地方當然如果查包括政風的那種我們絕對不會護短 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
20610.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
20638.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
所以現在兩個大的問題嘛一個是有人去檢取了他已經進入有沒有貪污秩序條例的問題沒有兩個問題一個當然如果是檢方那邊調查司法體系有沒有貪污秩序條例這本來就是要辦的嘛第二個更重要的是你這一邊啊你已經發現他社會觀感不佳的同時他的項目又嚴重的這個不對那你有責任去把他追回來啊不是就講一個社會觀感不佳案預算法的規定裡面25跟95條你有責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
20639.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
20645.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
委員我要先提醒部長你回答之前我跟你講你這筆預算是有可能審計單位根本就過不了的案子對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
20647.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
20674.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
有可能啊 審計單位敢合這個完全違反預算法的錢嗎所以你是不是有責任一個不只以後不能再發生包括被濫用的這個不合規定的應該去把這筆錢追回來啊委員我們會在名目上面去做一個完整的檢視不只檢視啦你自己去追當然要該採取什麼法律上面的工作我們當然就會做我跟委員說在接下來在檢視救安基金這件事情上面我沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
20676.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
20681.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
該怎麼該就該對啦你不要直接講說該怎麼說對啦包括要不要去追這是不是其中的一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
20684.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
20709.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
這筆錢不能夠只有欸如果有法規授權我們去有法規法規授權我們去追的話當然我們就要該去追啊主計單位財主單位都可以但是前提是先要要先確認他是否有不法嘛但是確認不法是已經到了貪汙的狀況了嘛那預算項目預算法裡面是另外的規定啊所以他是雙軌都要做那個因為現在其實很多相關的計畫他確實我們看到他確實有走走過 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
20710.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
20737.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
就案令基金撥付的程序他有走過這個程序所以如果要去認定他不法或該被追回也會有相關的法定的程序這不是我一念之間或者是任何首長一念之間說我覺得這不妥我就可以追回的他經過了他的法定的程序所以這時候司法單位有沒有認定他不法或者是有問題這也是這裡面很重要的判準 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
20739.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
20766.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
這不是我能夠一念之間說我喜歡怎樣我不喜歡怎樣我就可以說我去把你給追回了現在司法單位認定了就是當然有人去檢舉包括鍾小平去檢舉了習明春或是某些人嘛對不對所以司法單位已經在查我知道你剛剛講的如果是涉及到貪汙自罪條例那一塊的當然後來一定錢人要去追嘛還有這刑事上的責任嘛另外預算法上面明定了你過不過得了審計單位跟處計單位那一關包括錢人要去追你回去要再研究一下好不好就這兩個事情很重要不要只有講社會觀感不佳第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
20767.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
20796.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
還有一個很重要的立法的部分你剛提說下會期提了你是要立一個專法是不是現在其實各界有可能有提到有人提專法有人提專章有各種不同的修現在有不同的修法的路徑我們現在我是持開放態度但是每一種做法有他的優缺點所以現在也在綜合評估中那現有的像吹哨者保護法你支不支持這不是我主管的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
20796.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
20811.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
不是 我說你個人是不支持吹哨者保護法你以前在立法院應該是暫省的對不對你現在當了勞動部部長欸吹哨者保護法跟你很相關啊如果謝怡芬這個事謝怡榮這個事情如果之前有一個消費者保護法就不會搞到出人命啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
20812.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
20827.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
被霸凌者吹哨者有受到一定的這個保護很多霸凌事件就沒有了因為我現在的身份是勞動部長那我會就我的職權跟職責裡面的工作我來負責任的回答黃副長 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
20828.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
20855.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
對於勞工可能會被霸凌對於你勞動部的人有可能像那位吳先生被霸凌你是不是應該就要支持催照者保護法因為霸凌法制上面的不健全所以我們當然現在在霸凌防治的法制的話我們會積極的來做沒有衝突啊你要去遞專章跟專法可是這個是一個很重要的法律但是這是我主責下面的工作我說我現在不太方便去對其他不方便哪一個勞動部部長不支持催照者要被保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
20856.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
20876.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
不是只有存在著保護法你要去重視你要去支持法令還多嘞包括考試院跟人事總局那個公務員那個保障法的修法你也要支持啊要不然你的你的保障部的員工有受到有受到這個保障嗎升遷法啊這個主管以前都不用接受考核的啊以後升遷法裡面也要訂啊是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
20879.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
20904.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
我現在勞動部部長在針對我的職權內的事情我可以來做負責任的回應啦那個黃部長這就是你的職權啦全世界的民主國家的勞動部的部長哪一個不保障我們的吹哨者不保護我們公務員這本來就是要集齊啊不是那個我尊重委員的想法但是你現在就勞基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
20906.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
20918.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
跟委員報告老七法跟慈安法目前對於檢舉人的部分都已經有相關的申訴保障制度那如果有一些迫害的部分的話都也有處罰的機制目前是有的現行機制如果夠的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
20920.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
20938.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
那謝宜蓉這個勞業總這事情不幸會發生為什麼現在職場有那麼多各個部會像宇鶴春巡 風琴 尹永這麼多案子當然是要去補破網 要去補牆啊黃部長我提醒你一個點好不好是現在我在跟你談的是一個有沒有要保障所有的勞動部的員工各部會還有這個勞工的勞動部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
20943.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
20966.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
今天你今天你有沒有沒有點這個頭現在人民是在看這個新任的勞動部長是有重視人權嗎有反霸凌嗎那個張榮跟張榮說明對於一般的勞工這當然是我們主責的對象我們當然盡力的來保護對於勞動部下的公務員我們也會盡力來保護這部分我可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
20967.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
20993.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
表達我的態度是非常清楚的我很期待新任的這個勞動部長是有擔當而且是重視大家權利的他要全力透過所有的法令跟制度面去避免所有霸凌在發生的這個是我問你的一個重點當然這是我們的期待我最後再問不只是專法跟法律面要去強化包括催少者保護法公務員公務員這個催少者保護法公務員保護法跟升遷法還有你管的所有跟你勞動有關的這個法令另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
20994.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
21021.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
你到製度面去解決這個問題你沒有發現現在由單位去調查現在看起來好像是撐過鐵油的東西他出現幾個問題嘛利益衝突跟偏袒問題專業性也不夠調查過程這個透明度是低的政績收集也是不足的忽視了受害者這個需求很多都處理時間是非常強的後續跟進也不足單位文化又有問題最終還有後面這個吹哨者常常身份都被曝光了 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
21022.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
21050.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
所以我今天提了四個具體的這個要求來我們看這四個部長你應該似曾相識這個我們一起去修這個電內法的時候很像對不對怎麼樣讓內部的這個內部原單位的調查不要讓那個吹哨者或是霸凌者的身份會去曝光然後這個外部的人員要怎麼進來讓他是專業的我至少提了四個要求來讓他們看看第一個以後不只是勞動部喔所有部會是不是要做這些事情以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
21052.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
21065.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
規定外部的專家比例要大於二分之一不要自己人調查自己人右手查左手查出來老是利益良善外部的專家比例要大於二分之一第二個審查紀錄要能夠公開透明讓受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
21069.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
21085.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
能夠檢視第三個對於催債者的保護要更完善絕對不能讓他的身份外洩第四個要制定一個專章來規範職業這個職場霸凌的防患機制你同意這四點嗎作為一個作為一個制度面的一個委員你剛才講這點針對就是說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
21088.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
21103.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
如果有職場霸凌的調查要怎麼讓他的專業更加專業化這當然我同意這個方向那第4點講到說會來規範職場霸凌的防治方式這是我們現在在做法制化的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
21104.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
21133.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
那這個這個審查的進度要公出來的就是第4項我們已經有共識了你要專法或是專章了嘛第一項呢外部的這個專家比例要大於二分之一我跟你講何佩珊何部長那時候打的電話因為我在臉書上面發生這個事情第一時間我就發了新聞跟臉書我說你外部的委員一定要多找一些你不要讓人家覺得說你自己人在查自己那後來調查當然出了兩個問題就是外部的這個外部的這個專家人數太少 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
21133.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
21134.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
這個跟文說明在我們都應該要讓這個調查的過程裡面更加專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
21157.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
21179.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
當然我認為都應該要有外部的專家可是確實這個專家比例要到多少現在其實很多很多的公務機關裡面現在坦白說都面對他們現在都要找外部專家找不到的問題就是現在你答應你那個你說原來那個調查報告有問題對不對你下禮拜要拿來你現在調查的這個外部專家比例是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
21180.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
21205.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
你不會搞到搞到沒有公信力吧?尤其是關關相互吧?當然我們不會關關相互你現在外部的專家有幾個?你現在下禮拜拿來的你最新的調查你外部專家有幾個?我們那個跟委員說明我們有外部委員的參與啦然後這個我們絕對不會關關相互有啊上次何佩珊主導的你們上次那個被你認為有問題的就是也有外部委員只是人太少啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
21206.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
21209.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
以後能不能建立一個制度以後就是外部的專家比例大概二分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
21228.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
21247.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
欸這個你有沒有覺得似曾相識這個是前陣子你還當立委的時候我們兩個共同修法的方向啊那時候電內法你不是贊成的嗎你說電內法要有外部專家啊民間的代表二分之一欸我們等於所通過的咧張委員因為你現在到了勞動從立委變成勞動部長反而倒退路喔張委員因為電價審議委員全台灣只有一個電價審議委員會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
21249.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
21257.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
但是現在我們要來成立各個調查小組這個是每個單位都要成立調查小組他的狀態跟全台灣只有一個電價審議委員會這真的是不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
21260.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
21278.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
我們會盡力讓他更專業啦你今天意思說倒退嚕還是怎樣立委的時候都比較立委的主張現在當了當了部長反了倒退嚕我們討論的狀況你是太謹慎嗎還是我們討論的狀況那個是真的是全當時我們修法的時候是全台灣只有一個電價生意委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
21280.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
21295.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
剩兩分只有一個部長這應該放出四孩皆准的吧就是不要避免自己人查自己人觀光項目就是外面大家可以慶福的專家學者進來外部有人進來二分之一這個有什麼困難這個有爭議喔你剛剛意思是什麼找不到人 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
21296.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
21314.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
你是否定否定否定要有多一點學者專家還是我沒有否定我沒有要否定但是現在各單位其實現在都面現在我至少我聽聞到很多公務機關因為現在都要成立調查小組那這個這個這個安全防護小組裡面都在找外部專家所以他 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
21316.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
21335.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
等於別人找不到你自己勞動部現在火燒沒頭了你自己先顧好自己二分之一吧你現在會不會下禮拜提出來真的沒有二分之一好第二個地方來來來二分之一你今天不點頭然後講全民會有會有一個會有一個評論的喔部長你今天回答這問題都是很重要的我認為媒體跟全民會去檢視說我們的勞動部長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
21337.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
21338.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
我們當然會公布最後調查報告的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
21367.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
21370.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
委員我要向你表達說這個事情的調查真的跟電業跟電價審議是不太一樣的這裡面涉及到很多人的隱私 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
21394.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
21396.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
那這些強調我們要強調一個保障我只是要跟你強調說 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
21410.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
21437.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
這個相關的霸凌的調查真的跟這個電價審議是很不一樣的狀況非常重要啦兩個都非常重要就這次你們發生這個事情不要說一個部長下台了一條人命你這次的審查過程裡面能夠不公開透明嗎不能夠快一點公布給大家看嗎我看前面都盯著你啊部長是不是這樣你下禮拜來報告那個如果又有問題的話搞不好又換掉一個部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
21437.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
21438.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
報告當然會上網阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
21449.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
21452.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
希望下禮拜不是火越燒越大是止血而且讓我們反霸凌進入一個新的里程碑好不好共同來捍衛我們讓我們所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
21476.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
21485.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
支援所有的勞工都受到這個安全有尊嚴的工作,好,就這樣報定,謝謝那接下來我們請黃建豪委員質詢好,謝謝主席,我們請勞動部紅部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
21512.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
21536.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
黃偉好部長好部長這個換了身份今天第4以部長的身份以委員跟部長身份來質詢部長我想先就教一件事情上禮拜傳出一個消息你一直認為說是禮拜一要來排這個專報是誰給你的消息不是我當時是認為我當時是覺得這禮拜我就要來所以其實我應該要在 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
21537.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
21552.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
週末就對於大家各呃週末前就應該對業務報告對各當各司俗的業務有一個進一步的掌握好部長謝謝哦因為我一開始一誤以為你認為是禮拜一了那我要提醒你說如果有人跟你講禮拜一的話他傳遞了錯誤的消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
21553.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
21568.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
好那你當剛剛上任部長我也希望說你能得到正確的消息不要被蒙蔽啊所以說才特別提這個問題那既然是你自己自發性的覺得要提早準備好那我就沒有意見了好那我們進到主題那其實今天很多委員關心的是我們所謂的就業安利基金的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
21569.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
21587.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
請6檔 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
21592.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
21595.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
跟委員報告我們在105年到113年總共墊付了4億3000萬元那目前歸墊的是5827萬元一成大約一成 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
21605.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
21630.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
所以這顛覆的比例很低嘛所以我們就講說今天就業安定基金我們之所以它叫基金你當過委員很清楚我們在看預算的時候基金的目的不就是能夠有進有出才叫基金嗎如果一直付出去那就是供付預算了吧所以問一下部長我先想請教一下部長說我們還是講當然第一時間必須用就業安定基金來顛覆這個我沒有意見但是問題是後續你的基金一直在付給這種事情一直在 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
21630.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
21655.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
只要有人擺爛付不出罰款付不出機票然後我們就用救安定基金來讓他回國讓他回去那這沒辦法解決這個問題啊那我知道之前大概105年2015年的時候2015年左右的時候有提過說要去跟所謂的母國就是移工的母國來追討但是後續也不了了之我想問一下西部長上來之後對於這種救安定基金的虧損問題你們有沒有辦法解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
21659.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
21659.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
這個會有一個代帳處理的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
21681.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
21710.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
跟委員報告那我想那個捐安定費捐安定金之間支出的墊付的款項那後面如果沒有辦法收回的話我們按照行政程序去執行呢最後也會抵抵的代償先部長來我想要提出一些思考啦如果這些移工他就是付不出錢或他就是不願意付的話應該有什麼樣的代償機制吧他們要怎麼樣去做這件事情就像那個working holiday一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
21711.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
21727.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
他不付這個罰款那是不是他能夠派工給他幫忙政府做一些比較基本的工作做完之後再讓他回去後來這錢就一直這樣子吃下去那個跟委員報告因為其實現在其實我們這都是按照舊法60條來做執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
21730.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
21746.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
那這個有他的法規要求的有他法規要求的程序所以我們現在只能按照這個舊法60來好沒關係部長我是提供這個建議給你參考不然從以前到現在這個錢就越花越多然後就是這樣子沒完沒倒下去我覺得這不是一個辦法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
21747.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
21770.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
那再回到救安利基金大家今天不斷的質詢說為什麼可以拿去買咖啡機為什麼可以去買垃圾桶為什麼可以拿去打掃當然依照你們的第一條裡面是促進國民就業提供理事勞工扶持跟處理外國人騙雇的相關管理事務嘛這是他們救安基金的你們的核心的價值核心的目的支用上面支用上面這樣子那第五條裡面的用途有一項叫做管理及總務支出我猜想啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
21771.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
21799.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
咖啡機購買一些打掃用品垃圾等等的這些東西是不是就是使用這個管理局總務之處跟委員報告因為這些所訂的不管是職業訓練就業服務創業協助等等他都是一個對民眾的直接服務而這些直接服務必須要有行政管理才能夠讓這些服務能夠得以遂行所以他是在所謂的相關的範圍概念之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
21800.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
21821.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
所以是在管理總共支出支出這個項目在你們的在你們報帳的時候你們去申請的時候你們是用哪一條項目來去報所謂的咖啡機也好或是打掃用品也好這些被媒體寫出來的這些奇奇怪怪的這些支出就因為救安基金當初收的目的就是希望能夠所謂保障本國勞工或讓本國勞工的職能能夠提升嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
21821.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
21840.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
他的當初目的是這樣嘛但是後來變成使用上跑去用看起來是比較享受的事情那這跟一開始的這個支出辦法就很大的落差啦所以今天講說特別把11條指出來就是說我要問一下部長也問一下你們部內如果真的要做這個改革你們可以把這個拿掉啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
21841.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
21861.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
跟委員報告這個部分如果拿掉的話變成我們所有的原來在這裡面包括為了維持包括訓練場或者是就業服務據點這個部分連這基本的營運維持我們都沒有辦法從救安基金來支的話那除非我們可以爭取的到公務預算否則在廣義的認定他還是在促進國民就業裡面的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
21862.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
21879.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
如果他在處理國民就業如果因為處理國民就業我需要喝咖啡那你就會報在那個相關項目裡面嗎那就可以用用這個所謂的所謂的管理及總務職出來報啦我們有不合宜我們也承認阿但是不是所有的包括我們的這些建設都是那個不合宜這部分要上線跟委員說明齁確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
21881.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
21900.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
就是說他其實相關的程序他有走過相關的程序但就像剛才說到說其實可能會有些訓練場他會有他的行政支出費用那這個訓練場的目的當然是促進國民就業所以這裡面的行政的費用他會用這個方式去報進來主要的原因是在這個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
21902.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
21923.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
好,所以部長意思是說這個東西你們認為這個所謂的管理及總務支出並沒有拿掉的必要性就對了?就法規面來說,因為現在真的會有蠻多的支出,但我就是說合不合以社會觀感好不好,我們會來檢視可是這些訓練相關的計畫,包括它的場館的運營 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
21925.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
21935.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
他的目的是要促進國民就業在目的上面確實他的目的是在做這件事那做這件事的同時他會有一些行政上面的支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
21937.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
21964.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
行政支出我知道啦但行政支出你的用途裡面就已經包含在裡面了嘛所以說我要實施職業訓練及就業資訊等事項所以我自己會認為說當然你說當然當然現在大家看到所謂買咖啡等等等的大家會有不同的觀感來沒關係部長對可是他會有必要的行政支出部長那我請教一件事情我們就針對一件事情就好了好舉例來講就是以咖啡機為例你們現在有啟動內部調查還是全部都交由檢調來調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
21966.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
21978.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
像這個事情呃就我我跟華為說明哦剪掉現在是針對標案或者是採購的部分其實有在調查了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
21980.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
21998.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
呃就這些部分因為標案或者是採購部分他就會涉及到一些行形式上上面的責任所以他們是有希望說我們其實在某在這些部分上面這個如果那那一些內部的調查的部分可以先暫緩那以他們來作為最優先 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
22000.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
22023.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
好部長因為我們希望說當然司法進行調查了但我們後續如果司法沒有調查出什麼結果我當然不知道他們司法是什麼調查了我們會全力配合司法的調查我們希望說讓民眾知道到底像比如說你這個什麼咖啡精有的沒有的到底是用什麼科目你把它支出的嗎我們在在合一性上我們會做一輪機制的檢討因為我們看到因為其實我剛剛這樣講 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
22025.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
22053.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
剛剛你們的這個不好意思剛剛是是是代理署長提到說要爭取公務預算我們看到明年度預算自己勞動部本來的預算就2900億左右2859億左右那救安基金也只有200億元的收入啦但是我是覺得說像這些有的沒有的支出理論上就應該使用公務支出就好了不應該一直就占用一直去用我們所謂的這個救安基金這麼好用那這麼好用是過去這些年你們便宜形式去用了那 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
22054.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
22071.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
當然發生就發生了嘛現在進行調查我們期待是西部長上來的未來像這樣子的基金這樣子基金使用如果不符合項目不符合他原來用來保障國民就業的部分的時候你在使用上你就應該去回到本預算裡面了你該行政支出就是行政支出啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
22072.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
22086.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
我們會跟盡量來跟行政院爭取在本部的預算裡面能夠擴編啦但確實是過去長期因為本部的預算都相當有限所以跟這三個名目下面相關的業務才會去用到救安基金的使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
22086.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
22090.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
目前其實在公務員保護的一些相關法令他的法公務員的法體系確實現在比較是在考試院下 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
22116.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
22142.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
所以未來主管機關不一定是你們?你們的主管機關不討論了嗎?經過這一兩個禮拜這樣子動盪之後目前我說目前在公務員人員的法體系是在考試院那這部分不是我們說我們想怎樣就能夠怎樣的事情啊我怎麼這樣問呢?因為剛剛你不斷的去回答其他委員說我們可能訂專法訂專章但如果未來的主管機關不在你這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
22143.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
22159.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
那我現在在這裡討論不就白搭嗎因為一般的勞工也需要啊一般勞工現在當然有所謂職業安全衛生法這部分可以處理嘛但是現有的職安法針對霸凌防治的條文確實也不足夠啊所以確實我本來要跟你討論主席坐下了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
22163.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
22183.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
指案法裡面我想最嚴重的問題是這樣啦現在當然有指案法有一些依循標準包含說我們公務員相關也是依照什麼指案法去訂立相關的準則但是最麻煩是什麼沒有霸凌故意就是什麼叫做霸凌故意什麼叫要件這部分在未來修法裡面你們會處理嗎當然這是重點那我們稍微開始討論這個事情現在已經在討論禮拜一已經召開相關會議了 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
22185.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
22200.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
好那我們希望這件事情齁能夠盡快的至少勞工的所謂職業安全衛生法勞工的準則定出來之後可能後續我不知道公務員的部分到底是歸你們還是以後歸考試員那至少有一個準則因為我知道現行階段公務員的部分是參考勞工的東西嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
22201.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
22220.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
對 所以我們現在包括我們的職安署其實在於不管是勞動部法清開或者是霸凌的部分我也希望他其實能夠參考國外的一些案例跟做法那能夠更專業那當然我說公務員裡面如果要訂定的話我們勞動部我們也很願意一起參與討論提供我們在這部分累積的專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
22221.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
22245.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
好這叫拜託部長因為就像我們這個上一位部長跟這個分子長案件一樣第一份調查報告就如同那時候在記者會講的你會到他們按照法律就會講說最後因為沒有霸凌故意認為他沒有涉嫌重大所以這部分到底怎麼樣叫做霸凌故意這中間因果關係要怎麼建立起來我們希望部長能夠把這部分來強化可以嗎當然謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
22248.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
22256.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
好 謝謝黃建庭委員 謝謝部長 接續我們請楊耀委員質詢不要吵到時間了喔好 謝謝主席 主席請教黃部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
22275.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
22294.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
部長我剛剛聽部長在回答張祺凱委員的時候我有一個疑問所以想要先請教一下部長部長說現在各機關單位都在成立調查小組因為都有相關的案件在申訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
22297.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
22325.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
就是很多部會都有聽到這個部會下的相關的申訴嗎?那都要經過一定調查的機制所以就是遍地烽火縱使是這樣子呢我其實我也是主張外部委員必須要多於內部人員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
22327.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
22353.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
因為內部人員其實在特別是公務體系裡面公務體系裡面是這樣子就是大家可能在同一個單位待久了那他來擔任委員其實是作為外部委員輔導輔助之用我個人的看法這樣子出來的調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
22354.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
22377.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
第一會比較有公信力第二比較不會有有欺上瞞下的調查報告出爐我這樣子講部長覺得怎麼樣我們希望這過程要怎麼樣更取信於外監更有公信力對因為我也不相信外部委員這麼懶找因為其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
22384.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
22392.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
大齡或性貧的案件的專家介面其實我們可以把它看得寬廣一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
22394.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
22397.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
法案提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
22424.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
22447.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
法案的提出很重要可是呢我常講徒罰不足以自刑啊更重要的其實是是組織跟官僚文化我我曾經在河前部長最後一次來來備刑的時候我有問過一個問題就是說聽說發展署 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
22453.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
22465.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
的辦公大樓裡面有一個長官專屬坐梯有沒有部長沒有去過那個辦公室嗎我有 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
22468.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
22495.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
跟委員報告部長到大樓的時候他沒有搭那個那個專屬座梯那至於內棟大樓因為不是只有勞動部勞動力發展署自己用是整個這個新莊年的辦公大樓管委會他們所做的一個規範所以那個部分從文化部以下他們確實當時在大樓管會有做這樣一個設計為什麼我對這個這個電梯有意見呢因為我覺得很多很多文化是從是從從 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
22498.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
22508.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
從小細節發展出來的就是說你長官一走進辦公室就已經有別於其他的員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
22512.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
22527.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
大家的格格感會很深所以我是建議不管有幾個機關在哪裡是不是大家去統合一下把它取消因為這個國人的觀感也不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
22528.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
22530.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
民進黨不要說在公務體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
22557.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
22571.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
我們從街頭走到執政我其實對這個是非常的厭惡的所以我自己到發案所的時候我自己也沒有坐那個所謂的長官電梯 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
22572.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
22596.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
對我現在不是說你啦對那我說如果其他的相關其他的部會也同意的話我們當然覺得也不用真的不用去分這個什麼長官跟一般的員工當然因為你想嘛就是說所有的長官都有專屬做題然後久了以後呢他就會發展出一個很奇特的文化勞動部啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
22600.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
22626.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
我的觀察這五六年還真的是默默的存在然後偶爾就出一些問題這個是很遺憾的就是說全國的勞工勞保的投保人數超過1200萬一個這麼大的部這幾年討論到的大概就是救安基金濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
22629.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
22652.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
然後再做霸凌有關這次霸凌我有一個問題請教一下部長部長聽說你在立委任職期間就有聽過霸凌應該是我跟經營部說明因為之前在衛航委員會我就有聽聞過這位謝富恩署長在一些管理的作風上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
22654.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
22681.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
是有問題的,我有聽聞過,但不是針對這個吳姓公務員他整體的管理的作風我覺得霸凌案呢,或者是內部的事務呢,最麻煩的就是他的聲音出不來我在未完第13年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
22682.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
22684.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
其實我真的不知道那 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
22687.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
22711.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
我是覺得這樣子就是說那當初你覺得他的領導風格有問題我聽聞這件事情那你有沒有做什麼那時候我就向勞動部反映你有向勞動部反映許民村的時代去年的時候去年就還是許民村啊你說你向部長反映嘛就向勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
22715.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
22731.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
向勞動部反映,勞動部有沒有給你回覆?因為我其實是聽聞,所以我在聽聞的狀況下我覺得我還是要聽,但其實是一個反應跟提醒,說你們要注意這個事情,這樣子。 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
22734.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
22753.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
所以你聽聞他的領導風格有問題因為不是有具體的人不是有具體的陳情人不是有人來跟我陳情不是或者是說我手上有很具體的事證這樣子就是有聽說有聽聞對所以你也就反應了對先就反應跟提醒反應了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
22756.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
22779.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
反映給誰部長可能也忘了就向勞動部反映向勞動部反映然後勞動部也沒有給出任何的下文就是當然這中間經過了什麼事情坦白說我不是那麼清楚但是對我現在上任來說我最重要的事情就是說相關的反映相關的提醒都能夠被有效的處理當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
22780.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
22804.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
我覺得是這樣子就是一個部會的文化是漸漸形成的那在過去這幾年為什麼大家現在一直在講救安基金其實我曾經在這個位置跟許民春就救安基金的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
22806.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
22823.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
發生過非常激烈的爭吵許民春還揚言不幹了我為什麼剛剛問部長你當初是接獲到什麼訊息因為我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
22827.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
22855.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
我覺得就是就我的觀察在過去這6年我再講一次就是勞動部就默默的存在每一年只有在調最低基本工資的時候大家才發現原來行政院有勞動部那再一個就是大家討論到 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
22857.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
22885.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
舊安基金的時候會討論到因為舊安基金確實被濫用得很嚴重今天不討論因為我們還有機會討論然後再接下來就是你整個部會的文化已經非常的官僚跟僵化所以在內部光是一個分署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
22886.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
22914.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
就可以作威作福到這種程度這個是執政黨應該要有的警訊部長我們兩個就是各打50大板我當初沒有要求許明春信守承諾辭掉部長這是我的軟弱我覺得部長當初接到的訊息沒有去追也是你的疏忽 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
22916.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
22930.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
我們共同勉勵共同打拼謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝楊耀文委員以重新長來接續我們請洪孟靜委員質詢主席謝謝麻煩請洪森恆部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
22950.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
22950.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
22952.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
22981.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
以往立法院叫紅委員會有兩個人回應現在只剩我回應了紅委員高森紅部長不過該瞭解跟確認一下你的上任你的上台其實說實在話是一個公務人員的離開跟大家不想看到的一個悲劇發生而北分署署長到目前其實你說他拍了影片之後人間蒸發沒有再出現那 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
22982.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
23010.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
現在調查報告今天上午你做的說明是說要一個禮拜內才會出來下週對我可不可以請教一下政府持續在進行在何沛山部長在卸任之前他也承諾是說他會在一個禮拜內再提出過相關的一個行政報告那為什麼你上任之後又進行了什麼樣的一個什麼樣的調整什麼樣的了解讓這個調查報告又要再延後一週 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
23010.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
23029.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
是想說從頭過身就過還是想要拉長時間讓大家淡忘這件事情當然不是是那來確認一下說明一下你認為是說再過從這件事情11月4號到下週變成是一個月的時間了今天一個月剛好期滿 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
23032.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
23054.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
部長你認為我們的行政調查作業拖一個多月你可以接受嗎?如果說當初還是紅委員站在這個位置的時候他能夠接受行政部門一個多月的拖延嗎?那個紅委員我想向你說明因為我們是重啟調查是重啟調查會有重啟調查前的準備作業所以是誰負責重啟調查? |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
23057.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
23060.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
在上週我們其實很快就只是重啟調查的作業所以這週正在做相關的訪談 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
23075.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
23103.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
我們是重新我們我們是讓大家可以是重新的訪談那甚至也增加了一些邀請來受訪談的對象是就是希望能夠讓調查的過程的輪廓可以更加的清晰尤其是能夠更從這個無性公務員他是一個被壓迫者的角度他到底經歷了什麼是我們希望能夠更加清晰所以我們現在在進行這個相關的做非常好所以這一個行政調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
23103.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
23103.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
本席提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
23127.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
23139.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
在我們看到的媒體報導以及相關的一個資料裡面還有上一次我在衛福委員會質詢的時候有講到那位無性公務同仁他禮拜天11月3號 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
23141.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
23170.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
沒有被電話聯絡不上的時候他的家人還有前往我們的辦公處所來去做希望能夠瞭解說是不是無性公務人員在裡面加班結果我們的同仁跟我回覆講是說當天確實有在11月4號凌晨12點多的時候有看到他們的家屬去結果被警衛擋在外面連通報也沒有通報連聯繫也沒有聯繫所以到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
23171.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
23189.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
就不知道這個無姓公務同仁他什麼時候離開因為他被發現的時候是隔一天11月4號早上7點半當我們有公務人員進去要上班的時候發現所以部長是不是連同這個部分也能夠做一個徹底釐清有沒有可能最後其實我們是有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
23191.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
23191.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
部長,可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
23216.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
23232.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
呃跟吳姓公務員親身有關的相關的資訊我們當然都會納入是在這裡面所以連這個部分因為本市已經本市這一個部分不是我講是上一次何沛山部長在你這個位置的時候我問他我們的同仁答詢的時候親口證實的 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
23234.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
23252.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
說11月4號12點多已經過了等於是11月3號禮拜天晚上但已經過了12點所以是11月4號的清晨12點多的時候無姓家屬他們確實有到辦公場所但是被警衛擋下來沒有辦法去確認說他是不是有在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
23255.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
23281.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
就我所知確實有這個事情但一些關於一些細節的部分可能這個可能等調查報告出來好那我們就期待一定要把這個調查報告讓我們看到你改革的決心我希望好不好不要希望啦有點自信好不好紅部長來部長再一個部分是就業安定基金啊現在有媒體職業講師說有八千萬被濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
23283.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
23306.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
好那我請教一下我請教一下很多人都在問八千萬被濫用是重複了是不是我們這個我們衛環委員會來抱歉剛蘇蘇蘇州有旁邊這位是祖密祖密對本席的詢問有意見是不是剛我提到我講說八千萬被濫用然後祖密直接講說啊這重複了 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
23309.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
23330.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
好沒關係但是本席要問的是什麼要問的是說那我們可不可以釐清了解一下到底就業安定基金被用在哪些項目上面當然因為我們有發函或是說我們有要詢問勞動部說到底過去就業安定基金我們支出的項目名稱不得其門而入啊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
23332.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
23355.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
你竟然講說當然你也在一個在上上禮拜還是立法委員還是監督者的位置如果說我們現在要求要就案訂基金去年我們這支出的項目包括說有沒有八千萬有什麼買咖啡豆青垃圾裝潢等等的部分能不能提供給立法部門來去做了解我想這應該不是秘密吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
23357.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
23375.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
這個關於這八千現在媒體裡面講八千萬相關的支出是這單都可以提供嗎好因為其實甚至也很多現在其實都在網路上面是查得到的好那還有就業安定基金的一個用途因為就業安定基金其實有法規相關依據12項那裡面其實沒有所謂的政令宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
23376.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
23397.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
沒有所謂的政令宣導有的是什麼有勞工權益的促進有的是這個就業的一個協助但是沒有所謂政令宣導可是居然被濫用或是挪用的部分所以是不是會後能夠請我們相關同仁提供去年就業安定基金的一個使用項目以及他的一個支出的一個細項 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
23399.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
23428.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
這沒有問題吧跟委員說明就安定基金當然它在母法裡面是三個大的目標那後來在致用辦法裡面其實有所謂12項12個目的對但是沒有政令宣導重點是在那三個大項上面那我們確實過去會有一些文宣文宣的經費也就是說比方說它是用在促進國民就業促進國民就業上面可能會有一些需要宣傳的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
23429.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
23445.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
會用到捐贈安定基金所以你現在成了某種程度上是一種抄議啊沒關係部長我們這個都還有時間來繼續討論但是重點是先請提供這個捐贈安定基金的一個使用項目跟支出 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
23449.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
23466.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
最後一個事情部長新官上任不到一個月我只確認一下你之前有一二再三希望能夠提出要添災要有有薪假的一個部分現在擔任部長還會不會持續推動其實我也在跟業務單位討論這事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
23468.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
23490.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
我其實提的只是所謂這個颱風甲然後他如果有出勤的話那應該這個事業單位應該有義務要加給這個工資那這部分我知道其實業務單位現在也在研議中勞金法事實之一條嘛對不對本企業關心這個議題所以我希望部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
23491.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
23507.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
既然在紅委員的時候就有相關的提案那擔任部長了你就更有權力能夠來做來推動來執行來達成所以你之前的提案我們會幫你追蹤我們也希望在未來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
23508.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
23533.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
委員會審查的時候我們的行政部門不要紅委員紅部長的意見不一致我自己也非常關心這件事因為這關乎到勞工在颱風天之類的天災的狀況他出勤其實應該能夠有更好的福利跟勞動條件的對待那我們也會相關的修法我們也拜託召委之後來排案事實之一條我們一定會一起推好不好感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
23536.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
23540.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
謝謝 謝謝孟愷 謝謝部長接下來我們請羅志強委員歡迎主席有請部長謝謝羅委員部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
23561.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
23586.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
之前那個許民村前部長被爆料就用就業安定基金他的音樂會花了300多萬那你知道他的幕後花絮影片花了多少錢幕後花絮影片對我告訴你啦做了7支影片花了203萬短影片就是60秒的短影片然後單支的價格是29萬沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
23589.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
23592.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
是你知道平均每次點擊率多少嗎300多目前是300多對這是辛苦你了300多這個數字部長你聽得下去嗎部長你也有做那個平台吧對不對是這個效率看起來當然扯吧昏倒啦29萬照你們說300多的點擊率 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
23619.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
23634.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
能看嗎?跟委員報告那整個的案子是一個音樂會以及音樂影帶的拍攝我講的是幕後花絮影片連同那個整個音樂的演出沒關係沒關係這件事情這影片目前都還在勞動部的YT上對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
23642.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
23650.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
但是許民春辦公室說這是不實指控欸我想請問部長一支影片29萬是真的還假的?是不是不實指控? |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
23652.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
23673.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
這個影片是當初我只問你嘛有沒有一支影片29萬嘛有沒有嘛這是整體連同音樂片的那個製作好啦我告訴你喔拍攝那部分你們在性別工作平等法20週年音樂會及音樂影片結案報告裡就寫得很清楚一支就是29萬科目都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
23675.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
23700.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
還要再幫他幫我們的許明川炎黃嗎需要嗎部長新氣象不需要吧我們沒有必要為幫任何人去炎黃但我當然不是很清楚知道許前部長他所謂的不實指控的在講的是哪一件事情他就說這件事整件事不實指控啊就是我不知道他具體是指哪一件事情我們不用去為任何人對護短我跟你講國家錢就這樣浪費啦就一個安定基金的錢就這樣浪費啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
23707.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
23726.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
一個影片點擊率可以低到這種程度做了什麼他要去當演唱會去當歌星齁這邊浪費國家的錢喔這樣還不滿足欸還要把他的演唱會來做幕後花絮欸都是拍他喔幕後花絮喔真的很愛秀欸我再想請教你下一個問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
23728.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
23743.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
新北市議員我們這個就是謝宜龍挪用就業安定基金145萬在公共空間種個人植物需要24小時的燈照所以112年新莊本部用電量高達3萬多度 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
23745.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
23773.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
這是真的吧?跟委員說明我先把事實的狀況讓委員知道現在外界當然所謂說有3萬多度我不知道比較的基準是什麼但我有去查了謝宜榮分署長上任的前後110年跟121年跟112年就北分署新莊本部的用電數據的差別大概是5000多度差距是5000多度但這並不是謝宜榮 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
23776.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
23779.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
你知道謝宜龍是2023年3月當上北分署的署長嗎?對你知道2022年勞動部北分署用電度數是多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
23797.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
23811.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
我手上的數據大概30幾萬度吧我手上你們勞動部給我數據237萬度我講的是北分署不是新莊我記得是30幾萬度吧我講的是北分署237萬度這是韓訓練場北分署在新莊本部應該是30幾萬度 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
23821.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
23831.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
2023年齁我們謝榮當了署長之後你知道變了多少度嗎?整個北分數呃我根本不知道剛剛就是說我們查了112年跟121年的差別我講的是整個北分數啦251萬度啦沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
23836.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
23853.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
沒錯吧兩呃我說的是新莊因為他的辦公室你不要再跟我講新莊放下新莊好不好我講的是北分署我已經質詢了多久你倒還在跟我停在新莊我在北分署啊難道今天謝宜蓉只管新莊本部啊她不管北分署啊好 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
23857.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
23857.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
誒不對喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
23884.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
23896.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
其他的分署用電數是怎麼樣?是上升還是下降?我跟你講部長我要說句實在話啦你不用再幫他們背了啦他的浪費是大家有目共睹見證的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
23899.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
23925.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
我跟羅委員報告齁我其實絕對沒有要去幫誰背我現在就問吧那其他的分署的用電數你們給我資料是下降的啊所以不要再找藉口什麼疫情藉口那其他單位就不受疫情影響部長我跟你說今天你的所有的幕僚今天這種表現啊還在遮蓋掩蓋那我就很懷疑你上來到底能夠滅什麼火我再想請教你下一個問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
23928.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
23948.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
謝宜龍他有用救難定基金來花145萬種植物有這回事嗎我跟委員說明145萬是北分署他其實一些公共空間的這個綠美化工程就我查明後他本身他自己的辦公室並沒有用到這145萬但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
23951.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
23974.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
他為了照射那些植物所裝設的軌道燈確實是用舊安定基金那這部分是非常非常不妥當的而且這也不能被接受的所以那些軌道燈是用舊安定基金114年舊安基金裡面勞動力發展署辦公室業務基金所需水電油物通訊文書管理辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
23975.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
23982.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
用品維護辦公廳設公共空間綠美化衛生安全等費用114年度是編多少錢1億1849萬對不對那你覺得哪一個部分他花的最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
23993.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
24013.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
電費是最多啦電費在這個勞動力發展署各分112年加總總花費大概是5837萬但是你知道所謂的其他的包括所謂的購置辦公用品維護辦公廳設公共空間綠美化安全衛生你知道花多少錢嗎6000萬吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
24019.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
24042.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
部長剛剛講那八千萬我跟你講你都仔細挖進去啊八千萬都還不才是小額科我向你說明其實我在上禮拜上任後其實就有要求要檢討救安基金的滋用我知道我看過了啦你在那邊我看過了但我要今天要提醒你的是問題的嚴重性是我今天要提醒部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
24044.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
24055.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
真的太扯了如果今天勞動部要選一個年度代表字我送你一個字就是扯我希望你把這扯的文化打破掉這是我們對你的期許那接下來我再問你你知道勞動部114年媒體宣傳費跟出國經費各自編多少錢嗎114年對 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
24068.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
24092.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
媒體宣傳費62萬是行政院轄下機關最少的部會非常節儉要肯定你出國預算166萬是34個中央機關裡的倒數第6你們很省啊對不對為什麼編那麼少你知道為什麼編那麼少嗎因為這是在公務預算裡面的對啊你知道為什麼因為公務預算編那麼少但是你的錢都編到哪邊去啊捐錢都編到哪去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
24093.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
24104.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
所以你把就業安定基金當作小金庫114年的就業安定基金裡面媒體宣導跟業務費編2億1711萬比113年的1億6707萬漲幅高達30%然後呢旅運國外旅費編高達1074萬你難怪勞動部本部的預算公務預算編得這麼低啊博取美名啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
24122.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
24145.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
博取美名啊然後就用小金庫來開始去搞啊我們並不是要博取美名啊我還是在告訴你部長一件事情我這到目前為止這件事情這樣不是算你的因為國人也不會算到你身上因為你剛上任算你也不合理可是今天如果說你是這種態度來面對救安利基金你跟我保證你會把救安利基金好好用誰相信你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
24146.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
24169.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
根本就掩耳盜鈴嘛你在你的公務預算裡面編這麼低我們今天立法院看不到然後到Joyanti基金裡面狂編欸幾億幾億的編欸我們會來跟行政院爭取本部的預算我們會來跟行政院爭取本部的預算應該要增加因為過去本部的預算確實是分配的過少要編什麼預算要出國還是要去養綠油油的媒體 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
24176.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
24185.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
就正大光明變大公務與善業,不要濫用基金和押金基金。謝謝。謝謝羅委員,謝謝部長。來,繼續我們請張志榮委員,歡迎。好,謝謝主席,各位委員,各位官員,大家午安。是有請洪部長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
24208.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
24211.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
創委員好部長好部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
24213.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
24239.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
這是您的上任是因為一位無姓公務員的白白的犧牲所以政府應該趁此機會讓申訴的機制更加的完善那尤其這個北分署謝宜榮的這個問題他現在已經辭職了可是我想很多民眾還是非常好奇第一個請教部長的他為什麼可以升官升得這麼快而且過去就本席所得知他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
24240.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
24240.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
24263.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
24281.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
張永過去確實這個謝永芬署長他的經歷齁他在做分署長前的職位是什麼我想也大家都都很清楚你我就是想請教說你瞭解的是如何我我我我我可以跟文說但是就他我當時為什麼這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
24286.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
24299.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
跳升到被牽合到升到北分組分數長這件事情我確實不瞭解到現在還不瞭解就是到底為什麼當然我覺得這事情必須是接受到社會的公平你不想瞭解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
24303.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
24329.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
這個相關的決策做這個你不了解就沒有辦法杜絕相關未來產生同樣的問題我說我的意思是做這個決策當然決策的人必須接受到社會的公平那到底是誰做這樣的決策您清楚嗎清楚或不清楚若不清楚就說不清楚清楚或是現在不能回應不清楚清楚我現在無法回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
24332.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
24360.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
跟委員報告當時謝分署長他前一個工作是在那個部長辦公室裡面的專門委員那在最後部裡面核定這個派定的時候他說他跳過副組長跟組長的這個職位的原因是什麼因為你講到他的職位嘛原因我們不知道程序不知道我可以確認程序是由勞動力發展署發一個公文建議部裡面來核定他為分署長那誰核准的 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
24360.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
24364.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
部裡面依照人事程序核定的請問你知道誰核准的嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
24371.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
24393.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
當時依照我們的人事的選擇劃分是當時的許部長核定的許銘春許部長核定的好謝謝所以現在洪部長你也了解了所以部長他是有職權可以核定這樣子的人事案所以我才要問才要跟我們現任的洪部長講這樣的事情所以有關係就沒關係所以第一點要大家可以釐清那第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
24394.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
24421.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
您今年在媒體上也有特別提到說今年2月有人跟您申訴有關勞動部的一些鬼故事就是霸凌的事件那可是很可惜的當時好像有被吃案的情況那我想要請教一下您自己的案子您自己提出的霸凌案為何被吃案那現在當任部長有沒有去做調查那個跟趙委員說明第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
24422.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
24449.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
其實當時並不是有人來跟我申訴或有人來跟我澄清所以我有聽聞到相關這個謝芬署長這個不當管理的傳聞我有聽聞但不是有人來跟我澄清那你有聽聞那你後續有做澄清嗎那我其實就把這樣子的訊息向勞動部反映那請問勞動部會何此案那你現在當任部長的時候你想要重啟調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
24450.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
24473.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
我現在正在重啟調查有關於你被吃案的案件你有重啟調查所以在調查報告會提出來這樣的內容那個沒有就只要確認清楚而已我像張委員說我當時其實聽聞的並不是吳姓公務員的案子是對於當時謝芬署長的不當管理的一些作風所以我當然在部分提出提醒可是這並不是針對一個個別的個案的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
24475.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
24493.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
好沒關係我希望說部長你還是要有guts要來針對你自己提的案子自己擔任有行政職位的以後自己應該重啟調查就代表現在還有你提出的這個案子還有人在被霸凌當中所以你既然擔任部長之前有了解的案子應該要去查清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
24493.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
24518.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
那當然部長當然上星期有一個新聞也很大齁就是當然你當任部長的時候你有要求齁這個勞動部各單位齁到週末的時候來跟你做這個部會間的報告齁那後來當然是因為當然是第一個啦好像本來有說有封口後來你說沒有嘛那後來你當然也改口絕對沒有封口絕對沒有絕對沒有封口絕對沒有好 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
24519.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
24539.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
沒有封口那我想要跟你請教一下勞動部在你講完這件事情的時候雖然沒有開會勞動部上週末有多少人週末加班你知道嗎?我被你講了雖然你沒有封口你也沒有叫大家不要加班可是因為新官上任三把火大家還是有加班你有確認這樣的情況嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
24544.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
24567.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
我坦白說我並沒有我我我能夠現在不知道勞動部整體的加班狀況還是不清楚我能我也很想知道但是我們要找到一個比較好去了解這件事情的好那時間的關係我快問快一點齁我知道你好像比較累齁那你就你我請問一下你是何時現在說要重啟調查你是何時開始重啟調查的時間點是什麼時候是上週上週大概禮拜幾 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
24568.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
24594.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
我們上週大概從禮拜三就開始做相關的作業的討論然後開始從開始做相關作業的準備好那大概調查報告你今天有很多委員回覆嗎那本席想要請教你的是說過去的調查小組有說這個調查的這個調查的這個主持的人後跟這個謝芬署長後有這個友好關係哦那請問一下現在調查小組跟過去調查小組的最大不同是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
24596.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
24611.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
現在是由我自己親自來當召集人那還有沒有其他專家學者單位?有,會有外部專家有沒有什麼跟之前的調查小組不一樣的地方嗎?第一個是我自己來擔任調查小組的召集人 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
24612.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
24633.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
然後在調查小組的成員上面那當然跟過去也有不同部長你好像沒有辦法很清楚的回應到底有哪一些不同那希望說你再繼續加油到底哪一些不同不然只有講不同其實好像感覺有點換湯換藥那我再請教當時媒體有踢爆就是我們當時的 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
24635.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
24663.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
前分署長吼他在擔任分署長的時候他有這個呃長官的直屬公務電梯而且你知道這件事嗎你當時有去看謝榮的辦公室他到底有沒有直屬的公務電梯呃跟文說明其實那是在發案署在新莊大樓裡面他有一個因為他裡面有好幾個部會不只是勞發署還包括其他部會都在裡面所以那整棟大樓裡面其實所以有沒有長官只有長官可以搭直屬電梯 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
24664.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
24683.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
那你現在是不是可以可以宣布說現在這個長官能搭自主電梯未來是所有所有的公務員都可以搭乘不是只有長官上禮拜二去北分署跟老爸所說我就沒有搭那個電梯那有這個自己嗎我自己就沒有搭那個電梯所以有這個現在還是只有長官可以搭因為這個涉及到其他部分因為他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
24684.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
24688.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
現在的狀況還是只有長官能搭的直屬電梯你現在去了解這樣的狀況你只是選擇不搭可是沒有想說要改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
24704.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
24706.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
那我再請教一下勞動部裡面有沒有這樣子的長官只有長官可以搭的直屬電梯沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
24721.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
24743.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
我希望說第一個部長在這邊可以答應第一個勞動部如果有只有長官能搭的直屬電梯從今天開始起開放給所有的勞動部的員工都可以搭乘第二個希望你來協助就是當你講的現在沒有辦法來協調的這個部分由你來協調讓所有的這個所有我們的基層員工可以來搭 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
24745.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
24757.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
你覺得這樣合不合理在勞動部裡面我絕對不會去要求哪一個電梯只能誰搭絕對不會去要求這件事情所以我自己這個開政務委政務會議的時候行政委的政務會議你可以提出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
24759.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
24781.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
你是勞動部長你不是不僅是紅委員是我我我如果其他部會同意的話我當然同意在我們在新莊本部就不去再去區分所謂的長官跟一般的工作人員的電梯的使用所以你可以答應我說你會來提出這樣子的建議我願意來提出這樣建議好謝謝吼好幫所有公務人員發聲吼好接下來我想要請教的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
24782.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
24805.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
未來非常大家非常重視的我們未來所有的這個勞工齁在週末如果收到這個LINE的訊息喔是不是應該要10分鐘內回應不然會收到檢討以及這個過去有這個打卡部分有假打卡真實有加班的問題喔是不是請勞動部長在這邊可以跟大家宣布說未來如果勞工遇到這樣的問題過勞的問題要怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
24808.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
24837.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
因為我想這是未來很多的勞工全台1600萬勞工都在看說你的態度到底是什麼未來我們的勞工要怎麼來面對這樣的事情如果是勞工的話當然這是勞務主管的範圍啊那當然我們要我們就當然會這樣是不可以的是不是你說哪一個事情就是週末傳LINE有10分鐘內要回覆或者是這個我們公務部門現在有假打卡就是事實上有上班可是假打卡說提早下班可是事實上還在上班這樣的狀況是不是可以未來可以取消掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
24837.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
24865.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
張委員你現在因為你剛才在講的是好幾件事情沒有沒有就兩件第一個就是週末的時候船賴要多久時間可以回覆過去謝宜榮分署長是說10分鐘內要回覆嗎那這個問題是不是可以把它解決就沒有以後都不用這樣做第二個是我週末加班人沒有這個規定謝宜榮分署長這個規定是他自己的規定我們當然絕對不會有這樣的規定那第二個就是長期公務人員吼就是假打卡就是過時上班可是叫他 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
24866.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
24883.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
提早做打卡然後還是繼續加班的問題這樣子對我們所有公務人員來講未來是不是可以把這問題給解決在勞動部內的公務人員因為我是勞動部長勞動部所屬下的公務人員我會要求不要有打假卡的狀況會有加班但該怎麼報就怎麼報 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
24885.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
24905.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
好 謝謝您的承諾好 最後還有兩個最後兩個問題不好意思主席第一個救安基金的部分媒體踢爆有花了八千萬在不當的使用過程中那今天很多委員都提說救安基金使用的目的那我本席非常懷疑為什麼媒體會踢爆這八千萬請問這八千萬是用在哪些部門請問部長你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
24906.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
24915.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
還有這8000萬是否屬實這8000萬到底是只有約在北分署還是勞動部還是哪邊然後這8000萬的金額是怎麼來的他到底是8000萬還是更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
24917.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
24938.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
跟委員報告 這個八千萬其實是我們的媒體朋友他透過公共那個採購的一個公告決標的一個結果去做的查詢這裡面包括勞動力發展署的這個會議室的一個裝修還有公文信封紙張的採購以及北分署的這個公共空間的一個美化跟清潔用品跟影印紙 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
24938.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
24967.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
還有一個就是南分署南分署他在相關的建築物包括他那個保取蕭安的一個設施的一個增強跟外牆的整修等等那確實是有這些採購案好所以這上面的資料是沒錯的嗎好所以這些是在是公開資料上面媒體去把它給去去查到去找出來的對好那需要部長後未來這些都是人民納稅錢未來需要說這樣的情況不要再發生好最後我要問一個重點就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
24968.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
24992.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
在您當任立法委員的時候,民國111年的4月25號,當時您有質詢許明春部長提出因為台商回流,人力需求大增,製造業面臨三缺問題,缺地缺工缺宿舍,所以在質詢勞動部長許明春的時候,您要求要全面來盤點未來移工人數的住宿需求,而且依照公務預算進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
24993.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
25005.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
公辦公營的移工宿舍的研究評估報告需要說來蓋這個移工的這個這個宿舍有沒有這樣的有沒有這樣的事情我當時有質詢這個事情那請問你現在擔任勞動部長你會把你當時質詢前勞動部長的事情給承諾給實現嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
25013.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
25035.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
我當然會針對包括移工的在臺灣的生活的需求住宿是其中一個生活需求所以你未來會來做這一塊那你在做這一塊的時候我們是不是還有很多廣大的臺灣勞工或原住民的好朋友還有很多新住民的好朋友他的這個宿舍問題是不是可以一併來解決不要只針對這個移工的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
25036.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
25048.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
跟文說明一共部分確實是因為他這個他他進來以後他其實因為雇主會需要提供他相關的宿舍這是在雇主上面的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
25049.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
25050.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
當然,好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
25078.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
25081.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝張委員 接下來我們請陳穎委員質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩請洪部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
25103.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
25127.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
謝謝陳委員部長好記得您剛您的這個新職務發布的時候有馬上要大家不要恭喜你那這個當然跟一般正常的狀況是很奇怪啦因為答應擔任部長代表說您可以施展您的抱負那為勞工來服務這應該是值得恭喜的事那可不可以請您解釋一下為什麼要大家不要恭喜呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
25129.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
25148.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
我想大家都知道現在勞動部不管是內部或外部都處於很艱困的狀況而且我們會被高度的檢視那尤其是這個職務的變動又涉及到一起悲劇所以我當然是我當然認為其實我這個職務的就任其實是不用恭喜我我不覺得這是喜事 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
25148.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
25172.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
好我想這個我們都也充分理解啦那勞動部長這個職務因為在目前之所以會變成不要恭喜的職務那當然也因為在霸凌案發生在勞動部那你們剛好又是主管機關才會這麼諷刺因為畢竟也是引起軒然大波那麼這個霸凌防止的業務要請教一下是由這個勞動部的哪一個機關來負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
25176.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
25203.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
就目前是職安署因為他是在職安法裡面不法侵害的部分那我要特別提醒就是這一類霸凌的部分在職安法裡面是叫做精神不法侵害那要再請教說這項精神不法侵害的預防有沒有出現在職安署處務規程的文字裡面不知道部長有沒有留意到 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
25204.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
25223.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
謝謝委員提醒我們是職安健康所以確實沒有那個字眼好那既然沒有出現因為我們確實也檢視了那我只有看到就是職業衛生健康組裡面有職場勞工身心健康保護與健康促進之規劃推動及督導這項業務其實他是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
25230.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
25246.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
職業壓力心理健康還有過勞預防是有關的那我想請教職安署這個又是哪一個單位在負責呢跟我們報告確實我們現在把這個霸凌或是不法侵害放在我們這個第7項就是廣義的身心健康促進來做處置的 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
25249.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
25277.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
所以你們職業衛生健康組來負責這個業務好那為什麼勞工遇到這個不法侵害然後被勞檢通過的比例那麼低我們看一下這個簡報我們從這個兩個面向來看一下例如說去年去年度這個雇主或事業單位被勞檢3000多的案次有裁罰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
25278.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
25278.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
全體委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
25306.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
25329.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
部長您知道嗎這些事業單位被裁罰的原因他並不是說真的有這個霸凌的事實不是而是說這些事業單位他們並沒有去制定執行職務遇到精神不法侵害的預防計劃所以才被罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
25330.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
25346.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
那也才可以罰他所以你們的指引反而去告訴了這些被霸凌者各案的認定依照這個職安法施行細則第11條規定不法之侵害 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
25347.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
25371.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
例如身體的傷害跟蹤還有騷擾性侵以及像這些由各該管主管機關或者司法機關依規定調查或者是認定那我們講白了啦這個就是說事情發生了你們就是要被害者自己去告然後推給這個其他機關去調查跟認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
25372.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
25392.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
那你們能做的就只是去罰那些沒有訂定預防計劃的這個3萬元而已所以你們的指引就變成可以把責任推得這麼乾淨那這麼重要的一項霸凌的業務都沒有一個法定上負責的單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
25394.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
25408.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
這樣子推回來就好像又回到看起來又回到署長好自己要去決定嗎那同樣的道理啊我們來看一下這個外送平台工作者的權益保障跟紙災預防也是由治安署來負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
25410.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
25434.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
那他也是一樣是沒有法令的負責單位也是一樣就是州署長說了算嘛那這兩個共通點他就是沒有處務歸程我們很認真的去點出這個問題那治安署是103年2月成立的那108年新增了一個職業衛生健康組 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
25436.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
25452.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
才改了出戶規程那先今有這麼多的新興的業務這邊你們可能要認真聽一下我們今天點出這個重要的觀念因為包括這些新興的這個業務包括霸凌性別歧視性別平等性騷擾還有歧視 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
25454.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
25472.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
跟這個勞基法還有外籍勞工等等的勞動議題的相關的這些業務都是需要職安署你們來檢查還有這個規範那個防治措施因此在這個我們今年我在10月16號的質詢特別是以這個勞動部的智庫勞研所來舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
25477.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
25499.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
他們都已經是從這個勞工安全衛生研究所已經改成勞動及職業安全衛生研究所那就連這個職保法呢其實都已經落日了但是呢我們這個職保組卻依然存在然後只剩一個就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
25500.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
25519.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
剩下一個大部分的人都不知道要去哪裡申請也不主動去給發放慰問金的這個業務那組長加組員也將近30人這些人的薪資全部加起來都比發放出去的這個慰問金還要高出不知道幾百倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
25519.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
25534.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
好所以我不曉得說欸這個職保組現在的存在其實也沒有與時俱進的應該要消失啊好這個你們也應該要趕快檢討我都已經講了都要第幾遍了我想是這樣的重點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
25535.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
25560.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
你們要一併去盤點一下就是你們的新興業務還有部分業務是不是應該來交由這個財團法人職債預防重建中心去做你們可以往這個方向去思考然後把有限的這個人力依據業務的重要性重新去規劃修訂出物歸程那並且可以去更名可以更名為這個勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
25563.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
25589.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
勞動及職業安全衛生署否則就是說就像這個霸凌跟這個平台外送員的問題一樣一旦需要專業的人員去處理的時候呢不僅發現說我們現在法令上根本就是趕不上而且你還要在自己的組織裡面去指派這個就是說去指派這個主政的單位然後也沒有辦法真正的解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
25591.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
25609.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
那這個絕對不是應該是署長要有的一個態度啦因為我搞不清楚這是一個什麼樣的心情是私心在作祟呢還是自卑又自大呢還是什麼樣的問題我不知道所以我不知道署長你自己怎麼認為怎麼去看這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
25610.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
25629.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
謝謝委員指導那我們其實組織的一些出戶規則調整依照那個信用新的業務進來重新做修正這個非常謝謝委員提點至於組織的修正跟組織的調整當然我會再跟部長做進步報告看看我們有沒有在做進步檢討的地方好所以那部長你怎麼看所以我可以跟人家說第一我很謝謝你的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
25630.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
25659.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
那因為接下來我們會來進行霸凌防制的法制化的工作這個法制化工作第一個是相關的作用法的法規要能夠把相關的機制給建立起來但同時就像你提醒的這裡面也牽涉到一些組織跟任務上面的問題那我們也應該要包括租屋規程上面怎麼把這事情一併的考慮進去讓我們的業務的工作跟組織上面的任務能夠相對應我覺得這部分我覺得很謝謝蔡委員的提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
25659.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
25688.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
對而且那個職保組因為我在今天我應該也講了兩三次了你們也可以好好考慮一下那個人力上比較有效的運用畢竟我們已經修法了嘛該落日的要落日啊是那最後我要提醒部長就是最近職災的問題是頗受到大家關注那部長在擔任立委的時候也有要求職災資料應該要公開那媒體都報導出來了真相是全民可以監督得到的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
25689.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
25714.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
而且法院的判決其實都是公開的那為什麼就是攸關於這個勞工生命安全的職災報告不能公開部長你覺得你你認為你你現在上任你什麼時候可以公開關於重大職災的這些相關的紀錄我認為該公開的就公開好那那這個事件是用社會的用透明化的程度讓社會能夠公檢視讓負責人該負責我覺得這部分我 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
25717.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
25740.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
我當然我還是持這個看法好謝謝部長那您這個看法需要周署長的同意嗎如果他不同意怎麼辦或者那個楊鳳英委怎麼辦那個陳委員我當然因為我現在勞動部長的工作當然會跟業務單位來做討論目標是這個但怎麼樣做然後能夠做的有效做的可行這當然是我現在我在這個工作上面的任務對 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
25741.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
25760.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
好我想這個這個看法我是跟你方向是跟你相同我也曾經要求過啦那在最後就是連這個晉南大學李家桐前校長都有投書媒體指出說一定要有效利用職在資料來統計分析那找出台灣職在發生的原因來對症下藥 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
25761.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
25784.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
執安署他不去思考如何對這件下料而是推給這個僱主跟法令那很多事情千錯萬錯職災的問題都是僱主跟法令的錯執安署都沒有錯所以除了這個勞檢跟重罰以外沒效就趕快去修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
25785.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
25806.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
那你們已經對外宣布要修職安法那我希望這一次的這個職安法的修法建議部長可以在內部審查的時候好好問一下署長這樣執法的修訂為什麼就可以降低職災可以這樣朝著方向好好討論一下那也希望部長可以重視本席今日的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
25808.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
25808.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
接下來我們請柯志恩委員質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
25840.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
25840.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
行政部門該被監督諮詢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
25863.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
25885.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
好來我們開始繼續今天我剛剛看到從早到晚我看到今天非常多人來質詢有關救安基金的問題大概80%以上都會提到這個部分因為我時間非常的有限我也可遵時間的一個規定那我其實就給大家一個建議好了就是因為每個人都認為你的救安基金都已經批評它是你們勞動部的小金庫所以我個人認為說你不要等外界去發掘了 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
25886.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
25904.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
我就是應該配合檢調你就自己主動公佈裡面的一個細項我覺得這個部分對你來說也是種魄力的一個呈現主動然後直接送給監察院審計部我覺得這個部分對你來說是好的好不好?跟柯文報告上個禮拜在媒體報剔肉前我就已經指示我們必須檢討這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
25905.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
25920.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
還有 而且過程中我們其實就已經發現了一些問題部分的問題就已經發現了 主動主動公告就好不用輪到這個部分每個人都來教你教條細節還有就是我剛剛會特別提到為什麼就業安定基金的總支出大於總輸領不用現在回答我因為我時間有限還有包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
25922.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
25949.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
被濫用要提供細節還有最重要是我也看到了你六大支出項目當中112年的外籍勞工管理的計畫是過去的1.7倍原因在什麼地方請你提供明細給我好不好這個部分好額外的部分我還要特別啊因為我知道你對於勞工的權益非常的關注啊但是我還是認為你有一些的德政是可以在你任內完成的就這樣來說的話救安基金可以說是人民的血汗錢你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
25950.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
25968.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
今年就高達260億我要特別直指失能者的家庭貢獻的50億那你看過去大家也特別提到這些失能重度失能者不見得每個人都有辦法繳交你看他不斷的要繳交的哪一些的費用裡面你看我們看到非常的清楚你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
25969.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
25995.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
他很多的就業的這個部分當中裡面他的繳交的費用當中40億就業安定金是在雇主端的在雇主端當中然後呢你看112年開始使用在外國人聘雇管理業務的支出的金額驟增這部分可能要有所交代我的想法其實是很簡單你過去非常的重視這個有關於這個勞工那個權益雇主的權益其實你要稍微看重一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
25995.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
26016.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
這個部分以就業安定基金來去說的話我個人覺得你看一年就是兩萬四千塊錢而且很多重度失能他們是弱勢族群你當然會告訴我說有很多低收入的部分可以免繳但是呢這個條件其實是非常嚴苛免繳的人其實比數是非常非常的低的所以呢很多重症家庭喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
26017.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
26019.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
說實在的對他們來說就好像在繳交這個殘障稅或是失能稅一樣所以如果可以的話如果你能夠把它變成一個每個月十塊或是一個塊對這個重度失能的家庭來說真的是一筆非常大的安慰已經要照顧這麼多人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
26035.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
26061.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
如果可以在這個地方減輕他們的一個負擔的話我認為這個就是你可以回去好好的討論一下好不好我只提出建議因為我真的是時間有限最後會給你機會來做一個統一的一個回覆第二個就是我剛剛所提到的對於雇主的權益的保障因為你會知道所有這個雇主裡面你所收的這些的錢當中其實有一大部分來自於這個雇主那很多時候雇主跟這個逃跑的移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
26062.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
26077.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
移工當然是需要的權益要保住可是僱主的權益要被保障如果這個部分當中包括很多時候這個我們的僱主跟這個移工或跟任何人在打官司的時候說實在的僱主也要付出的費用啊也要付出的這個費用啊所以說呢我這而且你你會看得出來他們要付出這些費用所以對於他們來說的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
26085.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
26098.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
給予他們一些權力上面的一個保障我覺得這也是勞動部本身應該也是要來做一個考量的所以這個部分裡面我還是強調你看根據你們統計你們非常云以為豪的入境一戰式的這個這個層面的效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
26101.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
26122.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
你看入境授訊4個月後轉換僱主的比例是高達6%這在民間機構來說這是非常高的一個比率而且很多僱主還特別提到說因為有這個一戰事他想換僱主就可以換僱主這裡面都是呈現我們過去來因為我只有4分鐘我也不想讓我們的招委再繼續坐下去你看他那個臉還好是醫生所以知道怎麼保養否則已經快到4點了還有很多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
26125.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
26148.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
我提出這些方法我給你最後時間請洪部長就針對我剛剛所提問你可以回應的特別有關於失能照顧者這個層面可以回應的是不是可以立刻做一些回答克委員其實對於免繳救安定基金的範圍要不要再擴大因為你就像你也知道過去弱勢跟低收中低收其實都在免繳的範圍裡面但要不要擴大我覺得這件事情當然是可以討論的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
26149.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
26172.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
那至於要放到多大這部分真的我們就要跟丘丹未來做一些評估我只願意你要去做一個考量因為就我理解來說這個照顧重度施政的這些家屬來說是真的非常的辛苦而且他們已經交出非常多了我們當然來願意來考量第一個是跟剛剛講到一戰事的部分怎麼樣減輕僱主的負擔這部分我覺得我們也會來做相關的研議目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
26173.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
26190.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
對所以不能只是照顧這一篇你不能夠做一個但是我想要強調的事情是當時為什麼會有一戰事的原因是因為當時在疫情期間發現移工進來中間有好幾個不同的階段都出了問題所以才希望透過一戰事能夠把相關的事情在這裡面給完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
26191.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
26210.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
主要的原因是當時是在這個想法下但是我還是要強調這個部分這樣下來幾年時薪下來他其實還是有特別是對於移工的就地對於非法移工的就地合法化這其實又是另外一個issue但都不在我今天討論範圍但這個部分其實要顯露出非常多的一個疑問存在我當然願意顧及到顧主的 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
26211.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
26212.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
好 謝謝柯子恩 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
26243.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
26264.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
麥一貞 麥一貞 麥一貞委員不在李彥秀 李彥秀 李彥秀委員不在何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在想說都麥來啊張家俊 張家俊 張家俊委員不在許以貞 許以貞 許以貞 許以貞委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
26266.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
26273.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
廖先祥委員不在萬美玲委員不在張雅玲委員不在林楚茵委員不在游皓委員不在高金素梅委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
26292.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
26316.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
林國誠 林國誠 林國誠委員不在黃國昌委員 戲分間謝謝主席 馬上有請部長黃委員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
26319.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
26341.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
兩個禮拜以前啊那個前部長在這邊承諾啊兩個禮拜要提出調查報告我昨天看你們的聲明啊是沒有辦法嘛對不對現在還在調查中下禮拜會交出來下禮拜會交出來下禮拜會公布中期調查的報告沒有啦因為齁我知道你新就任嘛所以我不想為難但我基本上的態度是說不會再立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
26342.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
26368.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
既然做了承諾能夠遵守就盡量遵守新舊部長交接你剛上任他的承諾沒有辦法履行的部分責任要你扛我覺得也不公平但是我很看重在這個地方立委跟官員彼此之間我們在尋答過程當中所做出來的承諾這個是基本上面的原則那既然你新上任 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
26369.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
26372.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
下禮拜會交出來嗎?下禮拜會公布我第二個要請教的問題是說勞動部官員使用公帑去驗客是國家機密嗎?不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
26385.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
26406.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
那公署的電費是國家機密嗎?不是那使用公帑送禮是國家機密嗎?不是那如果都不是的話為什麼我發一個函去問你們編密件?這我搞不懂欸因為我接到齁我是一個念法律的人我很守法啦只要公務機關回函給我編密件 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
26408.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
26408.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
請針鋒處長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
26420.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
26441.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
發言委員因為我們回答您的上次您在質詢的時候關於東營公所的案子檢查機關已經在偵辦所以那一部分的內容我們認為他已經叫我們就停止調查因為他是在偵查的一部分所以那一部分這個問題我不要在這邊花太多時間但我請 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
26445.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
26471.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
針鋒處的主任回去再重新的理解所謂的偵查不公開就所何止啊絕對不是按照你們所解釋的這個樣子什麼叫偵查不公開是在偵查的過程當中檢察官的具體偵查行為所發現的資訊為了要確保偵查的順利他具體的偵查行為所發現的資訊不可以對外公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
26472.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
26483.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
但是行政部門針對你們手上所掌握到的資料我看了裡面實際的內容我老實講很多委員都收錄到了我以法律人的判斷這根本就不屬於在機密的範圍所以從剛剛部長回答的過程你也可以看得出來部長回答的為什麼這麼自然 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
26496.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
26506.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
但是我沒有意思要在今天這個地方跟你們爭論這件事情我善意的提醒我們政風室的主任再回去了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
26508.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
26530.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
你們在公文上面所回覆的那個內容為什麼會編密件啊因為行政機關啊有一個非常不好的習慣我不希望這個習慣無限的延伸下去不要隨便編密件要不然裡面寫的東西我老實講我看完了以後我第一個疑問是這是哪門子機密啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
26531.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
26550.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
為什麼要編密件?你們再回去看一看再重新的審視檢討一次這樣可以嗎?那個我回應黃委員確實目前這些相關的案件因為這個檢調這邊來跟我們說明尤其是涉及到採購跟涉及到標案的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
26551.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
26575.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
那他們現在正在調查所以他也請我們先暫緩相關的調查所以我想那個密件不是說我們要去遮掩什麼東西主要是因為現在檢調在調查的部分所以我剛剛才會跟你特別的強調嘛所謂偵查不公開的原則叫你們不要再處理或是什麼這個我都尊重啊但是這個跟你們回應立法院裡面的內容根本不涉及偵查的內容你編密件 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
26576.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
26600.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
我覺得這條線要守住否則以後這是原則性的問題就沒完沒了我覺得怎麼樣提供比較合理但是確實這不一定是密件啦這樣子沒有關係啊那個你們自己再回去檢討我給你們時間再回去想一想再回去檢討因為我後面還有其他的問題剛剛4分鐘主席已經加強語氣了所以我速度要稍微啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
26602.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
26613.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
要稍微再快一點在11月21號新北市勞工局勞檢以後勞動部有沒有要求北分署的同仁填寫表單填寫什麼樣的表單我具體的講職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表應該是有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
26627.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
26629.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
11月25日下午3點18分各位主管同仁您好我是分署職安人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
26651.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
26658.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
有關113年11月21日新北市勞檢處勞檢應辦的事項辦理職場危害評估及執行紀錄 敬請大家於113年11月26日前填寫職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表跟委員說明我自己看這份文件的目的應該是想要針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
26677.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
26705.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
下屬的單位有沒有相關職場不法侵害部分做一輪的瞭解只是瞭解的方法有不妥當這我們可以檢討沒有沒有沒有部長你不要緊張啦我沒有說瞭解的方法妥不妥當第一個我質詢的習慣是先確定事實先確定事實是我秀那張email給你我只是要證實說我不是道聽途說的人家白紙黑字你們發的東西我掌握了第二個填這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
26706.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
26733.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
自主檢核表也不是什麼不法的東西因為依照執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的附錄6本來就有這個自主檢核表但為什麼這件事情我要提出質詢這個不法侵害行為自主檢核表裡面來請部長看一下左下角這個檢核表有要求填表的人要署名嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
26735.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
26738.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
這個檢核表適合要求人要署名嗎?這個都是勞動部的法規這個法規叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引裡面有個附錄6職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表你們誰業務熟的上來幫部長一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
26759.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
26767.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
該委員報告我們這個直營的自合組檢核表下面並沒有寫並沒有填那個姓名職稱那個的欄位應該要叫他們填名字嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
26768.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
26793.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
我覺得看機關自己內部的一些做法我覺得還是有可以彈性的討論的等一下等一下等一下當你講齁這個彈性的討論對不起我就沒辦法接受囉因為這個是我們提供給事業單位做參與使用他們做自己的內部的那個調查是啊是啊那你覺得應不應該要大家署名呢我們沒有要求在這文件裡面暫時署長我們沒有要求大家署名 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
26794.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
26818.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
這個就是我的重點來他們實際下面發下去的是什麼實際下面發下去的在你們公告給社會看到的表格裡面他們發下去的表格竟然自己寫了填表者要大家署名部長你覺得這樣適合嗎這是我剛才說的想要了解想要去做一些調查但是這些調查的過程它的形式上這個合不合適這當然我們都可以檢討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
26820.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
26845.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
而在這邊齁部長說可以檢討但我希望部長回去瞭解了以後要有個基本的態度我為什麼說要有個基本的態度因為北分署的同仁他們為什麼會陳情到我這邊來他們當初看到這個檢核表的時候大家都傻眼阿要簽名欸要簽名欸這種東西如果要簽名的話誰敢表達他自己的爭議阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
26847.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
26872.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
在規範上面我必須要說為什麼當初的檢核表沒有設計這個簽名你發的對象絕對是署內的同仁沒有錯嘛你不可能發去路邊給路人嘛既然你要調查署內同仁的意義的想法那你就要讓大家有自由表意的空間嘛這個是為什麼當初在這個表格裡面沒有要大家寫填標則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
26873.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
26886.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
但當事發了以後事發了以後為什麼北分署的同仁大家會憤怒大家會不滿你發下來這個表上面竟然要大家填表這樣好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
26887.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
26915.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
歡迎我同意如果要求大家署名的話會有你剛才說的顧慮好需不需要署名這件事情我希望部裡面有一個統一的原則而不是按照剛剛另外一位長官所講的什麼各機關彈性調整這樣子的話那以後你開創了這個不應該開創的空間對於這個自主檢核表他目的的達成以及填寫同仁自主意願的表達顯然是會造成障礙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
26916.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
26925.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
部長可不可以同意我最後主席我再坐一分鐘可以嗎?30秒好啦你別那麼吵啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
26928.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
26940.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
那第二個事情這個是2023年12月26號北分署的會議記錄在那個會議記錄裡面去記載了什麼他說本分署DNA是要務實解決問題對於風氣、性騷、職場霸凌、絕對零容忍我們一定從速從重處理而這個會議的主席就是當時的分署長謝一龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
26958.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
26984.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
我看到這個會議記錄啊我必須要跟部長說啊我看了這是無比的諷刺無比的諷刺這是2023年12月26號依照上一次勞動部所出具連部長前部長自己都承認不合格的調查報告當中都已經認定他有霸凌的事實結果他所主持的會議當中說本分署零容忍重訴重重處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
26986.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
27009.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
我把這個提出來並不是想要再一次的去批評或者是去譴責這個謝宜龍雖然再度批評或譴責也沒有什麼不對但我想要了解的實際的狀況是你們有沒有去理解或者是掌握資訊在他當分署長的任內針對職場霸凌有沒有出現過申訴案件有還是沒有檢視單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
27017.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
27046.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
因為我很好奇到底是沒有申訴案件還是有申訴結果不曉得被怎麼搞掉了因為分署長告訴所有署內的同仁是本分署零容忍重重處理歡迎我可以說如果就算沒有申訴案件也是因為我們內部在相關處理的機制是有問題的沒有關係你先不用跟我講如果就是客觀的事實有還是沒有先回答這個就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
27047.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
27075.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
跟委員報告北分署的話在112年有霸凌的申訴案件是三件那113年呢113年也是三件那最後的結果呢都是沒有成立都是沒有處理那我現在再問一下那個112年的三件跟113年的三件如果是不成立是不是各有調查報告應該要有吧那這個總共六份調查報告可以提供嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
27080.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
27081.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
最後一個問題真的是最後一個問題齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
27101.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
27125.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
因為我在今年2024年1月2號北分署的會議紀錄又看到了說我們分署採購案被勞動部積合計有羅列26項缺失然後分署長謝宜龍說要大家多加注意那我看到這個會議紀錄那顯然是什麼北分署 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
27127.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
27147.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
在辦採購的時候他出現的問題勞動部之前已經什麼 集合到了有26項缺失那我好奇的事情是勞動部已經集合到了那為什麼謝怡榮他在當分署長任內的時候所辦理的採購案到目前為止浮上水面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
27147.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
27159.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
又這麼多問題針對勞動部集合所羅列的那26項缺失的內容是不是可以請勞動部事後提供可以可以嗎需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
27163.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
27180.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
好沒有問題那回復的時候拜託順便講一件事針對這26項缺失集合出來了以後那然後呢接下來發生什麼事呃黃委員剛剛秘書處跟我說明說其實這集合的缺失常常是程序上面有瑕疵 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
27180.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
27198.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
沒有關係我看了26項了以後具體一樣一樣看因為我喜歡本於事實討論等到我拿到白紙黑字的東西羅列那26項缺失有什麼問題我們再來看當初為什麼勞動部有集合出來但是後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
27199.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
27209.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
是不是有處理我現在沒有下任何定論所以我剛請你們一併回應26項缺失有沒有處理是沒有必要處理還是實際的狀況是什麼一併回覆這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
27213.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
27235.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
通常我們集合出來如果有缺失的話能夠立即改正就會請他們立即改正那如果就是說已經事情無法改正了以後我們就次年的時候會再度再次集合類似案件沒有關係啊你們的26項缺失是什麼後續處理的行動是什麼我們有了具體的內容以後下一階段再來檢討會比較清楚一點這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].start |
27246.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].end |
27262.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].text |
本日會議詢討全部結束委員盧憲一、徐宇貞、張雅玲所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報現在作以下決定報告及詢討完畢委員執行為及答覆或請補充資料者 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].start |
27263.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].end |
27275.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].text |
請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另行要求期限者從其鎖定本日會議到此結束 散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].start |
27295.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].end |
27296.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].text |
法定人數不足 |
| IVOD_ID |
16333 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16333 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-12 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-04T08:31:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-04T16:06:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |