| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609cc289f6154ffd95f1097cfa4245e4149a82e37f9ba35fd77c97aafce40c330e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
33103 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:17 - 17:42:00 |
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主席響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1793.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1816.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
報告全院委員會我們現在繼續開會今天分別審查考試院考試委員被提名人王秀紅女士、呂秋慧女士、柯麗鈴女士之資格是否施任相關事項首先我們要請審查被提名人王秀紅之資格相關事項請被提名人王秀紅女士說明時間10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1827.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1845.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士先生大家好我是王秀紅曾任第13屆考試委員現任高雄醫學大學護理學系教授30多年來從事大學教學研究與行政工作民國88年擔任教授至今 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1847 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1862.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
承任高雄醫學大學副校長、護理學院院長、學系主任以及性別研究所創所所長個人學術專長包括護理教育、婦女健康、性別議題、健康促進以及高齡長期照護 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1863.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1882.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
93年到97年借調行政院衛生署．協助推動性別主流化．婦女健康、健康促進．以及長期照顧政策．並建立我國專科護理師制度．至今約有14000多位專科護理師．與醫師協同合作．共同照顧病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1884.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1912.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
擔任衛生署副署長．以及臺灣護理學會理事長期間．有許多機會參與世界衛生大會．以及國際護理學會的相關會議．深刻提認國家健康人力資源的重要性．個人在108年到109年．接受國家衛生研究院委託．主持臺灣護理人力發展之前瞻策略規劃．研究成果已成為政策參考依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1913.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1926.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
護理人力與醫事人員的職量．攸關全民健康與生命安全．在人才培育端為教育部全責．國家證照為考選部主責．用人主管機關則為衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1929.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1955.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
持續透過跨院、跨部會的溝通協調平臺．強化教考信用的鏈接．才可確保遴選出適任的醫事人員．以及護理專業人才在考試院第十三屆任職期間．個人擅進考試院的職權行使．與每週院會的重要考全保訓業務報告．以及各項法案的審查會議．皆提出看法跟建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1956.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1968.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
並依職權擔任八次國家考試典事委員長．40多種考試的分區典事委員．或分組召集人．同時協助辦理或參加中央． |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1969.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1987.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
及地方政府有關考全保訓的業務座談例如華林縣、南投縣、屏東縣、嘉義縣等地方政府以及內政部、消防署、營建署、國家公務管理處等透過實地業務參訪座談多方聽取各機關的建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1988.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2000.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
任期考試委員期間．擔任考試院及所屬部會相關會議的委員．例如考試院性別平等委員會．公務人員傑出貢獻獎評審委員會．考全獎章頒給審查委員會等委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2004.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2022.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
在考選部則有考選工作研究委員會國家精英編輯委員會、醫學臨床技能測驗委員會以及性別平等專案小組等委員並協助審閱考選部110年國家考試性別平等白皮書 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2024.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2047.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
在保訓會．擔任高階文官．國外研習成果分享會的講評委員．並協助保訓會．沿邊完成國家文官學院．各項法定訓練性別平等教材此外．代表考試院．擔任司法院法官遴選委員會的委員．協助政府遴選事任的法官109年9月．進入考試院後． |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2053.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2069.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
比考試委員以及考選部部長．組成電腦化測驗推動小組．拜訪約40所學校．除了積極尋求學校合作建置國家電腦化市場外．並協助宣講國家考試．鼓勵學子踴躍報考 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2071.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2083.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
電腦化市場在113年底．可望由原有的6215個座位數．增加到16000個座位數．目前已經有10多類的醫事人員考試．是採用電腦化測驗．113年第4的護理師考試．也已採用電腦化測驗．這種急測急評的考試方式．有利護理師及早進入職場．適時補充護理人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2100.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2122.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
與考試院任職期間．適逢COVID-19疫情．以及護理人力荒的問題．藉由個人專業經驗．透過跨院、跨部．以及與專業團體的溝通協調．共同協助解決護理人力問題．以下幾點說明第一,促進護理專業團體．與政府的合作109年9月進入考試院．於12月辦理考試院． |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2128.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2132.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
與護理專業團體座談臺灣護理學會、中華民國護理師護士公會、全國聯合會等護理專業團體共同提出三項議題包括護理師國考全面採用電腦化測驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2143.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2170.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
提升護理師國考試題品質與題庫的數量．以及改善公立醫院護理人員運用比例經過多次會議討論．結合護理專業團體與考選部衛福部．引領三項革新計畫．包括檢修護理師核心職能．國考典式人才庫．以及國考命審題的教育訓練．這三項計畫都已完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2171.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2184.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
為精進護理師國考．以陸續將各考科的試題由80題調整為50題．足以讓考生有更充分的作答時間外．試題內容更貼近核心職能與臨床實務的應用 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2187.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2205.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
另外,112年增加11月的第三次護理師考試．讓7月考試為及格的應屆畢業生．在短時間內還有再衝刺準備的機會．除了避免教育資源的浪費．更協助醫療體系注入更多的護理人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2206.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2230.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第2疫情期間邀集跨部會及護理界共商決策疫情期間協助考試院建立國家考試防疫及員工關海措施110年疫情最為嚴峻而7月護理師考試有超過15000名的考生報名在醫院人力需求與考生染疫風險的兩難中收集醫院與學校端的資訊並會同考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2232.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2251.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
及考選部、夭級衛福部及產學專家透過視訊會議共商決策在嚴謹的配套措施下110年7月的護理師考試能夠如期順利辦理適時補充醫院的護理人力缺口第三 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2252.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2277.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
協助建立跨院跨部支教考用平臺．協力解決護理人力荒一百一十二年疫情過後．護理人力荒更加的嚴峻．行政院已合併通過護理人力政策整備．十二項的策略計畫．其中精進護理師考試．增加考試次數．以及建立跨部會的教考用平臺等議題． |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2278.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2298.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
跟考試院相關為了讓政策執行更加順暢．個人也協同衛福部．到地方政府的衛生局．醫院、學校等宣講座談．透過與各界及基層的對話溝通．其促進護理人力政策的執行．進而維護民眾的就醫及健康權 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2300.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2316.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第13屆考試院團隊．完成了近30項法案的立法或修法．並透過跨院跨部會．以及與大專校院．跟社會各領域的協力合作．促進了政府的革新 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2317.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2331.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
考試院身為國家重要的人力資源部門還是有許多攸關、考選、公務人員權序、保障及培訓等相關事項需持續推動及革新的政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2333.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2355.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
個人若能獲得大院同意．必將持續努力於各項政策的推動與革新．協助遴選優質及適任的公務人力及專技人力．並確保公務人員的權益及我國文官體制的永續發展以上報告敬請委員支持指教謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2365.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2377.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
非常感謝王秀紅女士的報告非常感謝我們現在進行委員的詢答每位委員詢答時間20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到諮詢委員不在場我們視為棄權首先請羅志強委員請 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2390.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2415.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
有請王秀紅教授麻煩請王秀紅教授請委員好教授好那個暫停一下醫事院拿一杯水給那個王秀紅不太習慣拿一杯水對你如果口渴可以快請不用客氣啊好請時間開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2421.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2440.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
黃教授好臺灣的經濟奇蹟以及安定繁榮幕後有一個超級大工程你知道是誰嗎公務人員對了 非常好的答案就是我們專業優秀的文官我也曾經考取過公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2443.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2460.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
當過兩年的基層公務員所以我還印象非常深刻因為我父親母親都是勞工出身然後從小就看父親母親在風吹日曬雨淋用勞力來換取生活所以當時我考上公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2462.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2485.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我的爸爸媽媽是開心到哭出來他覺得兒子終於有一個穩定的工作被社會敬重的工作然後可以在這個不用風吹日曬雨淋的生活我想請教我們的王教授你覺得現在我們的公務員還有這樣的驕傲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2488.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2504.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我想公務人員其實﹐確實是我們國家非常重要﹐文官的支柱﹐但是當然﹐時代的變遷﹐那個﹐各種的競爭﹐公務人員﹐至少﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2505.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2533.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我接觸的公務人員其實還很多非常優秀跟令人尊敬的而且是漸漸越來越勇於認識這樣的公務人員基本上我覺得社會還是對公務人員有一定的尊重跟尊榮我告訴王教授當我看到那位無姓公務員被他的長官霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2535.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2562.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他每天早上五點多去上班加班到三更半夜他還四點打卡下班呢然後老闆又不合理的方式霸凌他要求他最後呢這位無薪公務員他按照老闆的要求交出了他的工作也同時交出了他的性命他的母親也哭出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2565.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2594.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
跟我當時我父母親也是哭出來啊但差別是什麼請問教授差別是什麼像這個事件確實是非常令人心痛因為我長期以來也非常關心職場的霸凌事件跟教授講差別是我父母親流的是開心的眼淚而這位無姓公務員他的家人 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2596.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2622.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
流的是傷心的眼淚曾幾何時我們最驕傲的我們最優秀的我們最專業的文官體制被踐踏到這種程度我看了非常心痛啊我不知道王教授你看了會不會心痛當然非常心痛而且非常不忍我覺得職場如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2626.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2651.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
您真的通過提名成為考試委員我非常希望您能夠把重建我們專業、優秀甚至公務員光榮感的不再受霸凌欺凌的這個文官文化當作你一個神聖的職責可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2652.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2674.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我覺得這個確實如果有機會進到考試院我覺得這個一定是要最快速的方式最積極的方式來處理這樣的一個職場的文化這個是我覺得非常重要謝謝王教授但你的任務會非常艱鉅我從幾下幾件事情來看你任務有多艱鉅 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2677.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2691.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
你知道十年前公務員高普考報名的人數大概是多少十年前十年前應該是我不考你啦14萬多啦2013年是146209人那個可能就是高普考我講高普考對2022年剩多少人大概是6萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2706.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2729.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
6萬左右我的數字是7萬人降幅高達51.52%你知道發生了什麼事情嗎我當年去報考高考的時候錄取率6%而已報考非常踴躍在我的那個年代為什麼短短10年公務人員報考人數會腰斬 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2733.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2761.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我想這個也是考試院第十三屆考試委員非常關心就是從各面向去探討當然少子女化絕對是一個因素這個是一個然後就是說我跟教授講少子化當然是因素之一但這十年有少掉一半嗎我講的是公務人員那個年齡階層有少掉一半嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2763.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2788.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就是說還有其他因素啦當然啊少子女化不是唯一的因素甚至也不是最重要的因素最重要的因素是現在的文官面臨的環境急劇的惡化真的是急劇的惡化我在公務機關工作過兩年我也在政府機關馬英九時代政府機關工作過 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2791.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2818.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我是發自內心的沉痛我先跟那個教授說我有一些以前公務的同仁的同事真的這八年我們的文官被踐踏到不成人樣被糟蹋到尊嚴糟蹋到不成人樣就像一開始您也說優秀的文官體制是台灣經濟發展的動力 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2820.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2839.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
也是我們社會安定的力量但是今天這個安定的力量一點一點被破壞我要告訴你被破壞的哪些地方首先我想請教你我看到您的書面回答裡面關於警察年改的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2841.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2858.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
您的回答是說警消人員的退休權益相較於非警消人員已獲得相當保障若制度改變拉大兩者退休所的差距造成不公平現象顯然你是反對目前立法院開始針對警察年改的部分的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2860.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2886.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
其實我對警消人員我本身是護理人員對警消人員的那個高危險或是危老的工作其實我是感同身受那但是因為我們就是有一些數據嘛我們就是來看這些數據那未來政策怎麼發展就是說有一些數據就是警察我這樣問您好了王教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2888.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2917.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
你知道過去10年 因公傷殘因公死亡和殉職的警察人員有多少嗎我告訴你 8139人平均每年814位 因公死亡殉職75位同期間警察官人數平均大概是66800人也就是大概有1.22%的警察官因公傷殘死亡或殉職 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2919.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2949.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我再想要請教我們的王教授您看到這樣的數字你難道不覺得我們的尤其是危牢的一些警消包括空中、海巡還有包括我們今天的這個移民署很多危險的刑務的人員他們的退休生活我認為是更要受到保障的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2950.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2972.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
就像我再想請教一下我們王教授你知道根據我們政府的統計國人平均壽命大概是多少大概男女大概差不多是80對,81左右女性比較高男性大概差5、6歲那你知道警消平均的那個壽命是多少好像有統計過少了幾歲75歲差6年 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2983.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3011.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
為什麼因為他們工作就是危險所以第一個我要拜託我們王教授真的對我們的警消人員多一點同理心如果你真的通過提名成為考試委員我希望你們成為你能成為警消們生活的後盾尤其是退休的後盾這是第一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3012.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3037.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我要拜託王教授的事情第二個我想要請教一下目前我們公務人員退休年金的所得替代率他已經從本分的兩倍的75%現在降低到多少了如果是大概5年1.5大概差不多7.5降了7.5%所以是67.5了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3043.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3070.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這對軍公教的退休生活其實已經造成很大的影響了沒錯吧對 我想我們就是所以在制度面上我們可以就是最近也是因為CPI值那您對目前立法院在野黨提出來我們對於所謂的年金改革所得替代率 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3071.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3099.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
提出來修正我先把我們的修正案的精神跟你講我們並不反對年金改革但是我們認為這些年來透過年金改革已經是刨挖公務員退休的血肉了已經是挖掉他一層血肉了不要斷他的筋骨公務人員也支持年金改革但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3101.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3124.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
所得替代率已經降得非常多了這第一個可不可以重新檢視今天是不是對我們的公務員員做得太過了這第一個點供我們王教授參考第二個點就是當我們一邊用政府財政的理由在斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3127.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3140.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們公務人員退休生活的保障的時候你知道我們2022年稅收超徵多少5000億元2023年超徵多少3860億元2024年超徵多少4000億元整個退府基金的規模目前大概是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3158.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3185.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
大概九千八百億啦 將近一兆 對不對我要說的是政府一邊不斷的抄收稅收他其實不是負擔不起這是講收的部分政府對軍公教沒錢 說沒錢當時所有的退休 比方說我考公務員的時候我當然第一個工作的榮譽感 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3186.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3213.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
想為國家奉獻的熱情還有我覺得薪資待遇另外我考量我要考公務員當時不到民間工作還有一個原因當然是退休保障嘛 對不對我在當時考公務員會想到政府會反悔嗎你想想看我在年輕的時候去考公務員我會能想像政府會有一天跟我講說我翻臉不認帳那是以前政府簽的合約跟我沒關係我想像得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3217.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3243.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
教授我想像得到嗎若是你30年前去考公務員你想像得到嗎你會想到有一天政府Promise我的退休保障他要把我的血肉挖掉還要斷掉我的筋骨這叫信賴保護可是即便違反信賴保護公務人員也默默承受了所謂的年金改革為了國家財政 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3245.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3269.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
所以我今天真的很同心一件事就是說今天我們提出來的版本並不是反對年金改革三個字 夠了吧真的夠了吧真的夠了吧很多退休人員他們生活已經出現問題了而且因為今天政府不守誠信剝奪了他們退休的待遇他反過來開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3272.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3289.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
讓30年像我這樣去報考公務人員的人受到影響啊不然你告訴我為什麼10年公務人員報考人數腰斬我當年報考人數跟現在報考人數為什麼會差別這麼的大公務人員為什麼不再成為一個吸引人才的一個選項他不只是待遇問題這件事情也牽涉到 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3298.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3326.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
公務員看到主政者打從心底沒有打算對公務員守信用甚至對公務員是瞧不起的這才是造成今天公務員為什麼會開始報考人數竟然是腰斬這個數字是不可想像對文官體制維繫的打擊也是不可想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3329.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3355.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我要跟教授說你以為只有待遇問題嗎我再來講尊嚴問題勞動部北分署爆發的霸凌案我相信王教授已經有看到對不對因為我當過公務員我真的看得很難過我告訴你真的最近那個霸凌案離譜到什麼程度不可想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3359.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3386.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
為了要實現自己的所謂的那種威關威叫公務員深蹲演講叫公務員下跪嗆公務員你不爽就去輕生叫他去死我不知道啦我不知道是我運氣好還是什麼緣故我在公務員生涯裡面有沒有遇過這樣的長官啊我就是沒有遇過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3387.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3416.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我也很辛苦我也會加班但是每當我辛苦加班我們的主觀館都會慰勞我、勉勵我、謝謝我我在中央政府服務的時候我也沒有看到公務員這樣被糟蹋啊我想請教教授公務員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3418.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3429.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
不要講說待遇公務員的安全公務員的尊嚴公務員好好工作的環境是不是考試院的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3431.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3450.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
我覺得很感謝委員我覺得確實是現在我們的公務體系從後面講就是說主管的領導決策的這個氛圍就是說他的思維跟行為模式我覺得也必要去改 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3451.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3478.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
就說一定要營造一個職場相互尊重跟友善的環境那針對現在就是說大家非常關心的職場霸凌的問題我覺得未來考試院一定絕無旁貸趕快的去修相關的公務員保障法還有安慰辦法那還有相關的如果相關的法案一起來讓它更周延因為我自己也非常關心這個議題我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3480.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3502.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
公務人員的權益保障還有職場的環境的友善跟安全非常重要我也覺得很重要就是我們過去剛委員也提到過去為什麼大家都互相尊重我覺得我們現在跨世代的共榮共識那主管已經不能再用過去比較科程式 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3503.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3531.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
或是就是我們所謂的權威式的管理方式應該要去想一個就是說比較夥伴關係或是相互尊重我請教王教授我覺得很謝謝你有這樣的一個使命感你能不能答應我如果你真的順利通過提名你能不能在最短的時間內督促考試院重新去檢討公務人員保障的法規 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3533.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3557.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
拿出具體的有效果的法律的辦法來去約束這種霸凌的行為來去懲戒這種霸凌的行為來去保障公務員你可以答應我嗎確實這個一定是考試院如果未來團隊形成我覺得這個是最重要而且要最快速去解決的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3559.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3587.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
而且把他弄到法院的位階就當作你答應了可以嗎是最後我還是要很不客氣的說為什麼說你的任務很艱鉅這些年來尤其這八年來我看到現在的執政者對我們的公務員的不尊重對專業的不尊重他打擊傷害的 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3588.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3614.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
不只是公務員他打擊傷害的其實是我們台灣非常重要的安定力量進步力量也就是我們的文官的體制我看過王教授您很多過去的經驗我覺得您的學養跟專業我非常敬佩尤其你在醫療跟護理方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3615.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3638.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這一點我相信你有很深厚的經驗但我希望你未來為我們公務員繼續加油謝謝您謝謝羅志強委員的諮詢也謝謝王秀紅女士您的答覆請坐接下來我們請登記第二位陳昭芝委員請諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3652.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3654.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
提名人王教授王教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3664.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3691.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
王教授早您是護理界的領軍人物那你過去在護理、公衛跟醫療有相當深的這個耕耘所以你整個專長領域大概就是跟整個國家的健康、健保、保健、醫療體系是息息相關的那今天本席想就這個公務員的權益還有這個護理師的職業以及現行的考試制度的問題就叫這個王教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3694.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3705.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
公務員有沒有拒絕加班的權利一般而言加班也是要經過當事人同意公務員呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3710.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3734.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
公務員的話我想是應該經過一些協商通常是如果要加班也應該是協商說為什麼這加班這麼重要我讓你看一下三年前的新聞背景就是考試院要修正公務員服務法的草案當時立法院的法治局提出建議說公務員基於公共利益及為民服務責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3735.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3764.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
需要及時回應社會跟民眾的需求所以跟民間企業的業務本質是不相關的不一樣但是基於公務員本個人的健康問題如果他們實在無法配合超時的加班應該是要讓公務員享有拒絕加班的權利這是法治局的觀點但是當時權序部的回答是這樣的因為所有公務員所設業務甚至關係人民的生命財產安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3765.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3793.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那加班是長官對下屬他監督範圍所指派的是任務啦那實務上長官是可以爭奪加班的合理性、必要性、急迫性等等再進行指派如果覺得權益受到影響那公務員可以依公務人員保障法提起救濟所以當時權序部就認為不適合增訂公務員能拒絕超時加班權力的法條請教王教授您認同這樣子的一個見解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3794.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3823.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我覺得為了公務人員的安全跟健康以這樣的觀點來看是應該是透過一個協商的機制那當然是公務人員是他是肩負的剛委員有講他是公共利益或是說其他人民的權益他跟一般的企業界不太一樣您說的協商其實還是有一點模糊那事實上從整個公務體系來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3824.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3847.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
超時加班最嚴重的消防員過去考試院下有一個保訓會那在2013年曾經對基層消防員徐培堯等人針對嚴重加班的這個問題提出附審當時保訓會關上救濟之門就直接拿公務員的三法規定把消防員的申訴駁回了 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3849.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3872.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
結果最後大法官在6年後2019年認定公務員保障法第23條是違憲的而且要求三年內檢討修法但結果考試院全序部在釋憲後的這一波修法還是出現很多的問題為什麼呢王教授因為修法後 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3874.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3899.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
也許您熟悉他要求超勤時數必須在兩年內兩年內把它補休完或換成加班費但是各地方政府他為了減少加班費的付出所以他就拼命的排補休假那補休的時候這個補休的時數我知道最多還有上千小時消防員有上千小時那一直排補休就會落到工作落到別人身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3901.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3923.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
所以我要再次請教王教授針對有問題的法律是不是要等到被說是違憲才來檢討考試院不能主動一點嗎我覺得這個議題真的非常重要就像臨床上委員也知道護理人員的加班或什麼樣的我覺得這個應該是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3926.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3949.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
最重要的Priority就是說健康權非常重要不能無限加班一定要在一個規範或是公務員沒有勞基法保護所以他超時加班所以我覺得這個可以來做研議到底怎麼樣的加班才適合時數期待王教授如果有機會進入考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3949.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3959.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我覺得這個很重要 健康權非常重要接下來我要請教護理人力的問題全世界都有護理人力短缺的問題雖然台灣每年總 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3962.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3982.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
總職業的護理人數是增加的但是因為高齡化或是慢性病化、多重疾病化等等社會需求增加所以護理人力的需求也是增加的那世界衛生組織在2020年它有一個State of the World Nursing2021年還有Global Strategic Directions for Nursing and Midwifery 等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3982.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4003.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
他建議各國在2030年之前每年護理畢業生要增加8%來因應護理人力的需求您的報告中也有提到護理人力政策準備的12項策略我想請教王教授你認為護理師的高離職率簡單的說是有哪些原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4006.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4031.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
高離子率護理人員的高離子率這個當然是感謝委員提問委員應該蠻了解的護理人員的高離子率當然第一個就是跟職場的壓力跟職場的環境這個是大概是聽到的是最重要的那當然還有其他很多不同的一些原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4033.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4055.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
王教授我就護理人力政策準備12項策略中考選部要負責的部分請教你第一個就是國考增次、題目精進第二個是增加這個就是增加國考次數但是把題數降低你剛剛也報告了調整難度第二個是建立跨部會的護理教考用的協力平台 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4056.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4084.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
那該策略計畫預定119年能夠增加5.6萬到7萬人的護理人力王教授你認為這個數字可能嗎以這樣的因為我們現在少子女化你認為可能嗎比較困難有困難好有困難那你認為不管達到多少數字你認為留任率大概是多少留任率當然是留任率留任率 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4086.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4089.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
會是多少?流任率會是多少?經過這樣的整備計畫,流任率會提高嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4099.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4126.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我們希望當然留任率是越高越好啦王教授這個調整難度的部分當時引起很多的一個討論跟爭議啦他被認為是降低國考的難度那在請王教授回答之前我想先來反映基層護理對這件事的一個回應2023年11月臺大院工會抨擊他們認為考選部11月9號突襲公告降低護理國考門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4127.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4131.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
那針對難度較高的基礎醫學從2024年開始立刻比重從20%降到10%那麼這麼重大的調整卻僅召開一次的專家學者諮詢會議而且會議中沒有任何基層的團體參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4145.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4170.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
科學部短短一個月內並火速的公告而且在11月15日就要完成意見表達那我們來談一下基礎醫學這個門檻你把難度高的比重降低那會不會就是告訴民眾說我們因為人力不足所以我們必須把標準降低那這個是不是拿專業形象還有社會的正當性甚至是勞資協議的協商的籌碼開玩笑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4174.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4182.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
公會跟護理團體痛批這個是走回頭路請再稍後一下當時的這個我還不是立委當時的薛瑞元部長說話不負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4184.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4205.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
他說他不僅未能理解護理界的擔憂還口出狂言請看這是他講的話我不曉得不滿意的護理師是用什麼道理由一方面說人力不足那我們現在要充實人力所以充實就增加那麼國考有更多人的考過他們又要反對我不知道他們的邏輯在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4207.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4220.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
但是護理界的擔憂還是沒有停止黃教授你認為考選部未來在公告相關資訊的時候應該怎麼做比較好當然其實有經過程序這個議題其實沒有執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4224.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4248.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
就是說降低基礎醫學那時候是在研議當中所以現在五科都是20%都一樣分量都是一樣的降低難度的部分呢降低難度其實我覺得這個是大家有誤解啦如果說所有的考題都有上網公告考完了馬上上網公告其實還很多我聽到就是說從80體變50體為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4252.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4274.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
80體60分鐘要來做80體要0.45秒就要回答一個問題這個是非常的所以長期提次也許可以討論但是基礎醫學的比重大家都知道基礎醫學就是走向臨床醫學的基礎如果護理人員沒有這個教育他沒辦法從病人的主訴去了解做一些基本的判斷跟處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4275.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4301.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那他一定影響他後來的一個判斷的品質跟結果可能引起醫療爭議啊影響照護品質啊甚至病人的安全啊所以這個部分你的意思是說這個部分暫時不會去處理嗎沒有現在已經這個政策也聽各方的意見之後我們就是希望跟專業團體還有用人職業主管機關就是把這些基礎醫學的有一些概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4301.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4304.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我認為真正的問題在於每年護理科系畢業級通過執照考試的人數跟實際進入職場職業的人數63% |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4321.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4340.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
相差太大了每年有9000多名畢業生但是只有4、5000人會領證照那你增加國考的次數降低難度好像會帶來一些改變但是無法根本解決問題那目前他是做了一些補救措施包括這個夜班津貼、三班護病筆的獎金 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4343.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4366.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
那我也支持這些今天的發放但是這些預算會年年有嗎而且這些發放機制裡面還有很多的問題跟不足所以菲律賓護理師協會會長安達姆還講說政府與其花一些時間在想花招還不如根本解決問題所以護理人員職業環境如果不改善的話不論如何修改考試制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4368.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4390.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
黃教授我認為目前齁我們根本沒有辦法讓資深的護理師留在留任去帶領新生代的護理師所以他就是免洗人力啊免洗人力啊六七年正好用他們平均留任時間才六年啊所以對考試人來說是不是增加人力就好增加人數就好呢你就把護理師當作免洗人力嗎王教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4391.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4416.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
我想是這樣的護理人力大概不是一個部會可以解決的所以為什麼我說要從教考訓用因為我們未來的人力的需求真的是因為我們超高齡社會會需求是越來越高那所以呢教育端我們也跟教育部就說如果辦學比較好的學校應該趕快多一點名額來培育要不然會緩不濟急 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4417.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4441.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
王教授您是目前考試委員當中這個背景最深入的所以這個部分大家都知道現在是危機啦我再請教你您過去說過法規是護理人員權益非常重要的一件事情一環啦那我想請問就目前的法規你認為可以保障護理人員的權益嗎目前的法規足夠保障護理人員的權益嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4442.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4457.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我當然就是因為我最近沒有在衛生署不過衛福部不過我覺得護理人員的法規當然是用人機關要去檢視除了護理人員法護理人員私刑細則還有勞基法 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4459.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4474.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
那我講得更清楚好了目前護病筆尚未入法是採取獎勵先行的方式很多基層表示說這個制度失靈撐不下去了我就請教你直接請教你你支持三班護病筆入法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4475.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4501.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
三班護病筆入法是非常不容易但是現在政策已經往這一方面我覺得很好為什麼那總統也承諾三班護病筆是對護理人員的照顧的就是負擔所以你支持嗎支持好那請問你認為護病筆要如何計算現在連計算都有問題喔你認為基本上簡單講一下該怎麼計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4504.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4514.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
互併比現在是三班互併比所以都有公告不然醫學中心區醫院那個公告都是平均都是假的跟基層的感受完全不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4515.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4536.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
那當然是每個醫院都要公開我們說的資訊要透明公開公開到什麼程度每一班嗎每一個類別病房嗎還是一個大大的平均數呢當然就是看衛福部的要求一定要依照衛福部的要求來做衛福部如果做得不好考試院沒有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4539.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4540.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
醫院評鑑有沒有作弊包庇的嫌疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4559.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4583.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
醫院的高層護理人員有沒有作弊跟包庇的嫌疑為什麼都可以輕易過關護理人員這麼不足為什麼可以輕易過關呢確實醫院評鑑是一個非常重要醫療品質把關跟人力把關的一個重要的機制但是都過關啊大家都過關都很歡喜啊醫學中心還繼續增加表示沒有問題啊是不是有包庇 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4589.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4617.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
作弊的嫌疑我們教授這題大概你很困難回答關於你回答的問題我再請教你目前這個當然高普考的報考率很低迷還有特定的科目錄取不足也是其中的問題那你剛剛也有回答這個高普考率報考人數下降其中有個人你第一個答案還是講這個少子化有關係那當然還有多重的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4618.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4635.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
那我想請教你除了這些原因之外你提到的考試科目多還花很多錢公務體系限制等等等等近期頻傳出的公部門職場霸凌案會不會也是原因之一您認為會不會也是原因之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4636.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4656.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
確實我覺得公務體系的一些管理措施或是職場環境一定透過這樣的我覺得也是非常重要未來可能也是讓我們的青年學子進來的一個考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4656.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4678.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
所以我們一定要趕快的建立一個很良善跟零容忍不管是性騷擾或是職場霸凌我覺得都是零容忍的王教授勞動部事件發生後因為很多民眾相信在野黨的立委才有能夠幫他們主張公道所以我這裡成了部分的全國申訴中心我的訴案是非常多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4678.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4695.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我要談到的今天我們談醫療領域無論公司機構其實醫療場域是一個非常緊繃的工作環境那除了職場霸凌案其實護理師有時候還面對職場上的一些我們不可諱言從媒體上性騷、性歧視、性侵害等等上個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4697.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4718.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
屏東榮總有一名護理師因為性別認同周主管同事霸凌欺負最後選擇用最極端的方式對待自己他媽媽每天以淚洗面希望孩子趕快醒過來但是屏東榮總的回應是說調查中初步上未查獲霸凌行為我想請教王教授的意見您看到這個新聞了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4727.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4741.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我覺得不管怎麼樣我覺得性騷擾跟職場霸凌就是從我們說的那在醫療場域會不會很多醫療場域其實我在10多年前跟30年前就對醫療職場的性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4744.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4768.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我跟職場霸凌有相關的研究發表我個人就非常重視這樣的議題就是因為你做了這個研究我特別要請你要注意這件事情2009年你發表了一個婦女預防保健跟健康政策性別主流化的觀點你有提到一些可急性、可靜性、可接受性、可負擔性也提到婦女能夠發揮的其中一個角色我要談的是其中一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4770.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4785.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
關注醫療介入措施可能對父母的不良影響那關於這幾個點您現在還是認同吧可見性、可及性等等那我想請教你雖然不是考試委員的職責但是你是健康政策專家事後必應完 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4786.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4801.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
在事後72小時內的效果最好越早服用這個成功率越高所以取得這個藥物的可敬性、可及性甚至費用本身這個是非常的重要如果你去看醫師要括號再問診 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4805.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4820.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
然後你取得的藥品的這個門檻非常高有可能錯過這個黃金時間那一旦錯過黃金時間你知道結果嗎你就剩下兩個嘛一個是口服墮胎丸喔本來是避孕丸喔第二個是什麼侵入性的人工流產手術 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4821.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4840.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這個背後的數字我都掌握所以我想請教你就一位專家女性健康專家請問你支不支持事後避孕完列入指示藥就是非處方藥你在國外看過美國的非處方藥乘藥數量是比這個處方藥還高因為就醫的障礙很高 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4841.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4869.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
您贊成嗎?您支持嗎?我覺得對婦女來講應該這有專業判斷過嘛尤其是剛說的是不是開放藥局我覺得醫藥分業之後藥局您同意嗎?您贊成嗎?我自己個人是為了婦女的健康我是贊成的好謝謝我再跟你加強一下WHO也主張開放十大先進國台灣自己定義十大先進國也開放了 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4883.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4893.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
謝謝陳昭志委員質詢謝謝王秀紅教授請休息接下來我們請登記第三位審發會委員請質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4914.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4940.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
好 院長我們請被提名人王教授麻煩再請王教授請備選選委員好王教授早辛苦了這個因為這個我們考試院是我們國家重要的人力資源部門負責這個世財世索、玄賢、雲能 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4945.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4962.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
及其中考試委員身具重要性許多帶新格的事項要如何持續推動提升國家人力資源的素質優化文官人才創新都需要有賴未來考試委員的專業相輔相成確保我國文官體制的永續發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4970.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4997.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那這個我非常在過去長期非常對於我們的這個王教授過去長期對於這個不管在學術界或實務界的相關的貢獻我們非常的關注而且也非常高度的肯定這個王教授過去曾經任職這個高雄醫學大學的副校長那也是深具醫護專業領域的專家長期經營在我們這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5001.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5028.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
學術圈跟醫護的這個實務界這40年來長期王教授長期投入我們護理教育學術研究衛生行政跟國際甚至到國際事務那這個在疫情期間我們國家更接駐這個王教授的專業讓臺灣以護理專業推動務實外交在臺灣護理學這個學會的理事長身份曾經出這個代表臺灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5030.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5058.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
我們作為這個WHO的代表那這個分享向國際分享我們臺灣的防疫經驗等等這些經歷我想這個我們在從過去到現在我相信各界都給予黃教授高度的肯定那這個更難能可貴的是在2004年到2008年那個是本席在第六屆立委的任內那時候我們黃教授擔任這個由我們國家來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5060.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5087.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
藉調黃教授到行政院衛生署 擔任政務副署長在這個政務副署長任內 黃教授也推動包括護理人力、婦女健康政策、食品安全甚至最重要是大力推動我們臺灣的專業護理師的考試到現在我國已經有14000多位專科護理師跟醫師來協同合作來共同照顧病人 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5088.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5117.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
今天我們是第十四屆考試委員提名審查因為王教授過去也擔任第十三屆考試委員可以說是並不是新人所以我們也就針對在過去這四年的王教授考試委員任期間我們的相關的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5119.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5147.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
我有看這個王教授剛才的自我的介紹那以及我看王教授的這個書面有關過去的這些在考試院任內的這些工作包括這個國家考試的性別平等白皮書這個完成我們國家文官學院這個延編性別平等教材在考試院任期期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5149.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5163.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
這個也就正好遇到了百年大疫適逢疫情這個最重要剛才的幾位委員都提到的這個護理護理人員的這個這個人力需求的缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5166.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5193.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
所以你那時候提出說這個透過這個教考訓的這個平台還有個人專業經驗也協助了尋求這個護理人力的解決方法共商政策確保確保考試如期舉行適時補充護理人力的缺口等等的這些諸多的努力那這樣子的相關的提出過去你所提出的一些看法跟建議一些深知灼見 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5195.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5224.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
所以本席有特別的去了解對於王老師過去的發言跟貢獻對這些問題的看法做了一些整理有一些部分今天利用這個機會來就教於王教授我想這個考試院的最重要兩大職責一個是考選一個是全序這兩個大部分它分別牽涉的兩類最大的對象就是一個是尚未成為公務人員的考生 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5225.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5240.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
另外一個部分就是已經成為公務人員他們的相關權益所以大概分成這兩個部分來就教於王教授第一個是有關考生權益的部分第二個是有關公務人員權益的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5242.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5271.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那這個有關第一個部分就有關考生權益的部分我想剛才前面也有委員也在在詢問中也提到了就是說我國這個目前在在這個這個報考這個我們國家考試的報考人數在10年內腰斬腰斬這個到51%幾乎是一半少了一半那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5273.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5293.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
當然現在我們所面對的現在的考生他們跟我們在過去的世代是不一樣現在人稱為Z世代的考生Z世代的考生在這些考生中有一些相關的挑戰跟因應的策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5297.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5325.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
當然剛才在這個委員的詢答的這些詢答過程中我們黃教授也有特別提到那大家事實上也知道這個考生人數的大幅下滑他有一個大概就是兩個主要的原因第一個最最關鍵的應該就是少子化這不只是國家考試包括在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5327.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5353.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
這個大學大學入學考試等等相關的升學考試裡面也是人數不斷的降低那這個是這是少子化是一個最關鍵的因素第二個因素就是就是這個當然公務人員的目前的這個這個職場這不像過去幾十年前相對於公務人員以外的相關的職業場域的 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5355.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5381.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
這些職業環境可能不如公務人員但是現在在我們整個國家的相關勞動法制體制以及相關的這些建構完善之下事實上不管是在公部門或私部門它的相關的這些職業職場領域都的這個差異已經沒有過去像過去公務人員的職場這個環境比其他的職業 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5382.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5410.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
執場環境要好很多現在這樣的差異也降低了所以我想現在公務國家考試的報考人數降低跟公務人員職業跟過去的相比這是一定的趨勢這是一定會發展在少子化以及相關職場 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5412.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5429.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
這個改善的情況下是一定會發生但是也不可諱言現在因為其他相對於公務人員職場相關的其他的私部門的相關職場的環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5431.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5450.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
目前的環境的改善跟提升那也使得這個我們必須要更加重視公務人員所處的現在的這樣子的職場環境這個改善的部分這個可能我們這個在未來我們在後面等一下有關公務人員權益的部分我們會來探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5454.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5476.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我認為但是這個有相關組織文化的變革﹑數位化的管理策略﹑促進公務人員吸引新世代的投入﹑提升跨世代的協作這個我想這個應該是一個很重要的議題這個部分請問王教授你有什麼樣的看法跟做法建議謝謝委員的提問 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5479.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5493.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
Z世代已經是大概是30到35歲左右1990年所以這些Z世代的年輕學者其實是未來公務體系非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5494.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5508.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
選取的人才所以這個議題大概可以從兩方面來探討第一個就是說考選制度是不是能符合這些Z世代的需求因為Z世代我看也是被暱稱是 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5510.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5529.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
數位原住民所以他們的數位能力或是那個工作態度跟方式確實是跟我們比較資深的世代是不一樣的所以我覺得考選的一些政策的改變比如說我們現在第13屆考試院的團隊也在用數位轉型也只是擴大電腦化的考試那這個是他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5538.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5560.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
也聽到的他們的需求很大那另外當然有很多的策略比如說多元評量或是多元考試的方式等等就符應這些Z世代的需求這是一個部分剛剛因為提到說現在目前這個考生人數大幅下滑 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5563.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5574.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
他的根本原因還是少子化少子化跟工作環境我們作為公部門我們應該要有一個做為友善職場的推動者 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5579.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5595.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
甚至應該是要作為施部門的示範者也鼓勵年輕世代的生育希望能夠減緩少子化的趨勢這樣子進一步帶動施部門跟進共同營造有利於工作跟家庭平衡的職場環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5597.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5623.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
那這些部分其實有這一部分跟這個王教授的在過去在這個職場有關這個性別以及這個相關的這些主題就是王教授關心的部分是不是能請王教授就這個我剛所提的這個部分能夠做一些您的希望能夠推動的政策方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5624.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5637.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
哪一些還可以再精進的可以再精進其實就是說第十三屆考試院團隊已經做了一些友善的生養環境當然有一些政策比如說升遷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5637.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5638.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5657.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5685.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
在公務體系的友善的生養環境非常重要比如說我認為當然有些是有困難但是我覺得可以研議就是有一些先進的國家他已經有part-time就是說非全職的工作那當然這個會跟退休老婦婿有關但是我覺得可以有一些的規範比如說6歲以下的小孩那另外呢我聽到的很多的年輕世代的人他們就認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5686.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5712.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
其實生一個小孩他們付出的而且是在養的那段時間他們找不到人照顧因為我們現在的家庭的結構是很大的變化家庭結構根本沒有叫做所謂的家庭支持系統所以國家怎麼樣來協助像說公托或是等等這些我想還很多可以精進的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5713.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5729.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
另外一個也是有關考生權益的部分無論是公務人員或是專技人員的這些考試事實上都有專業科目的測驗來確保及格者能夠具備職場上的專業支持這當然是考試的主要目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5730.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5740.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
但是網路上面經常有人批評說我們現在的這個考題過於冷闢第一個是過於冷闢 第二個可能過度偏重實務就這個尚未踏入實務的這些考生來講會有所困 會非常困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5752.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5769.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
怎麼樣平衡跟取捨各類的測驗我們可能是不是因為考試行之多年為了避免題目的重複等等所以就越走題目越走越冷僻那這樣子要怎麼樣來避免考試這個試題越來越趨冷僻這個部分這個王教授不知道怎麼樣看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5770.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5798.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
謝謝委員的提問確實我們也聽到尤其是我跟醫事人員比較接近就是說一些護理人員或是醫師的考試確實有感覺有一些比較冷僻、艱深那有一些可能比較他應該是進到職場之後再訓練的比如說專科醫師、專科護理師但是也出現在命題裡面所以我覺得未來考試院、考選部其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5799.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5815.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
可以用已經已經也在進行當中就是題目的這個難易度或是題庫的增加因為我們的考試就是都是會上網的那考選部的有一些規則就是說相似題 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5816.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5838.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
不能出或是百分比非常低那這樣就變成命題的老師呢就是越出越艱深或是找不到那個就是這個問題呢其實確實應該未來要好好的來檢討如果王教授有機會繼續擔任考試委員我希望這些相關的問題王教授能夠繼續付出努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5839.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5866.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
另外再來第二部分有關公務人員的部分因為事實上本席在那時候院會在這邊總質詢的時候我也提到像現在這個在整個亞洲的競爭環境當中我們現在目前政府希望推動這個亞太資產管理中心我那時候有建議金管會他們對於相關外資的引進比較像現在日本他們就做這種整個一夜市一站式的這個服務就是事實上外資它從進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5868.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5893.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
所有的這個包括表格、公文、申請程序、流程全部都是英語環境這直接是全英語環境那這個一直到他最後整個通過所有的程序都是英語程序所以我們怎麼但是我們現在台灣我希望說台灣也能夠做這樣相關的比照這樣來進行你在亞洲才有競爭力但是目前的公務人員的英文 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5894.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5913.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
的這個英文能力的提升這個是我個人非常關心的這部分王教授不知道什麼樣的建議謝謝委員我覺得這個真的是非常重要就是說在考試院的立場我覺得就是從考選開始因為我們考選就是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5916.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5941.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
選取英文能力比較好的比如說涉外事務比較強的一些類科外交人員、外事警察等等這一方面可以從英文檢定因為第一個能力就是他已經準備了英文檢定變成是資格考然後英文口試的佔比或是命題等等逐步因為有一些因為你剛剛所講的這些都是相關特定領域的 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5943.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5961.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
例如說我們所希望做的相關對外的這些金融商業等等這些相關的類科現在可能都沒有這樣子的相關的能力那當然就是說這個是第一步選起來的就是會比較英文能力強的因為英文能力其實是長期的很難就是一下子培訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5962.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5986.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
他英文能力就很好但是這些及格的人員錄取的人員的培訓是在保訓會保訓就可以用多重方式其實剛剛委員講的因為現在很多的大學裡面都已經在EMI就是全英文授課我覺得未來培訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5988.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6006.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
國家文官學院可以培訓未來朝向這一方面就是說能夠用全英文的提升他們的國際觀跟國際交流的能力這個部分英文能力是一個另外就是有關於AI的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6006.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6034.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
有關AI的相關因為這個人工智慧的發展快速運用未來事實上這個AI應該在我們目前公務學期裡面納入這個當前的重大政策裡面那這個我們好像國家文官學院也有針對高普考的基礎訓練開訓所以我是希望說剛剛講的英文能力AI等等這些相關公務人員的這些能力包括在考選的過程以及在這個公務人員執訓的部分我們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6036.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6048.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
來做加強最後一點點時間我想我個人有關心另外一個問題是有關於公務人員的身心調適假的問題這個部分王教授有什麼樣專業上面的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6050.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6073.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我想因為我過去也長時間就是在參加一些國際的相關會議比如說世界衛生組織那其實世界衛生組織已經近年來已經非常強調就是希望他的會員國都要注意民眾的就是要注意民眾的就是心理健康因為心理健康呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6074.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6102.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
影響的當然未來的一些身心健康的所以我本人認為就是說這是一個很正向的一個就是政策當然這個政策應該跟衛福部對應該有配套規範然後跟衛福部那個考試院應該跟衛福部還有人總一起來就是研擬一個相關的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6103.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6112.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
這個部分請王教授如果未來有機會繼續擔任考試委員希望王教授能夠在這方面來進行努力所以我們來推動這公務人員的身心 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6113.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6142.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
這個身心調適假但是又要我們也同時要避免他所發生的一些負面的狀況例如說公務員因為請身心調適假被標籤化等等相關的這些這些負面的配套這部分如果王教授有機會獲得這個立法院同意繼續擔任考試委員我希望王教授能夠在這個部分繼續為國家來努力好不好謝謝審發會委員的質詢也謝謝王秀紅教授的備詢休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6142.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6142.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6771.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6773.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
報告全院委員會現在我們繼續開會接下來我們請翁曉琳委員諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6797.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6801.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
院長好有請王教授麻煩再請王教授備選 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6811.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6827.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
王委員好因為您是算是這個才剛剛卸任的委員但是因為被提名所以如果這次我們的考試委員人是按您順利通過的話您將會是續任的委員所以我在這裡還是稱呼您王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6828.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6840.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們知道其實就現在因為考試院在8月30號所有的委員都卸任所以現在考試院的狀況是怎麼樣還可以開考試院院會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6844.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6871.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
因為我們在卸任前為了讓國家考試或是一些公務人員的權益能夠更順暢所以有提了就是修改議事規則還有考試院會的組成是 那麼我在這裡我想請教您考試院的主體到底是誰考試委員是考試院的核心成員嗎是核心主體嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6873.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6884.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
我想以我十三屆的經驗核心主體就是院長、副院長、考試委員還有三部會首長所以就是三部會首長是可以取代考試委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6887.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6912.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我想現在是在我們說的不得已的狀況就是權宜措施為了處理緊急必要的一些事項所以這也是雖然有一些就是不很周全的地方但是這是為了就是考生的權益本席認為沒有考委的考試院就是違法、違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6914.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6940.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
大家叫我想您這個作為考試委員您應該很清楚知道考試院組織法還有憲法增修條文的規定考試院是設院長、副院長、考試委員只有院會的時候現在的規定是說這個三個部會首長可以一起出席參加會議但是就考試院的本身來講應該還是考試委員為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6943.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6965.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
對 那現在如果說一個考試院．可以不需要考試委員．九位考試委員可以不用出席．只有三位部會首長．就可以去參加考試院院會．然後做成決議．那這樣其實我．平常講我一直在思考．我今天審查考試委員的目的是什麼所以謝謝委員．就是因為． |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6971.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6993.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
不得已的權宜措施是不得已嗎我認為說這其實不是不得已而是我是認為說其實現在民進黨政府在玩一個策略就是反正你們這些委員這個重要人事案不同意通過也沒有關係下面的三級機關的首長就可以主持了啊就跟NCC委員也是一樣的意思明明都已經我們法律通過他應該現在要離開了還是要讓他繼續再當大法官也是一樣明明15個大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7001.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7016.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
然後卸任了七個八個大法官還是繼續在運作他根本不care就是考試委員到底通不通過反正現在三個部會首長權敘部、保訓會還有考選部部長你們就可以決定考試院的事情了他們就可以決定考試院的事情了不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7019.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7031.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
因為就是卸任之前有一些必要的就是對所以我認為說你們卸任之前做的考試院院會會議規則的修正那是一個錯誤的愚蠢的一個做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7032.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7048.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
因為這個再度的證明其實這只是證明了考試院沒有考試委員無所謂一點都不重要反正考試委員假設這一次沒有一個人通過沒有關係考試院的剩下那三個部會首長繼續運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7051.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7075.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我必須講我是真的覺得很遺憾看到考試院委員們尤其您又作為前屆的委員您當時也大概也知道這個考試院會議規則的修正在此之前我其實就已經跟考試院秘書長有嚴正的說過這個事情這是一個違憲的違法的一個去修正這樣的會議規則因為真的是把你們考試委員架空了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7080.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7095.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
說實在話從8月到現在大概4個月的時間沒有考試委員的考試院不能運作嗎可以所以我們為什麼要花人民的公帑再去聘請9位考試委員這是很糟糕的事情所以我要講的就是考試院組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7106 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7119.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
現在的規定說這個考試院的院會議規則考試院院會由三位部會首長可以一起出席這樣的一個規定我認為是很不適當對比看看監察院 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7124.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7146.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
監察院的會議規則裏面其實也只有講他是由院長、副院長及監察委員組織這個才是監察委員才是監察院的主體考試委員才是考試院的主體監察院也沒有講說省進部部長可以參加監察院的會議可以參加監察院的院會是初期他只是練習 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7148.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7165.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
所以理論上來講你現在的考選部部長、權序部部長還有這個保續會委員應該是要以列席的方式來參加考試院院會他出席院會的意思是什麼代表他可以自己投票自己做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7167.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7186.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
這不是球員兼裁判嗎所以今天沒有考試院院會的考試委員沒有考試委員的考試院院會其實是更好考選部部長自己提了案子其他兩個部會首長拍手叫好就同意通過了他哪需要你們考試委員去投票請問一下如果您繼續假設您有幸擔任考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7196.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7208.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
您會主張要修法嗎把考試院組織法裡面將三個部會首長出席的這個條文修改只讓他們列席 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7211.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7223.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我的看法就是說我們13屆委員的組成就是9位考試委員加上院長、副院長還有就是三部會的首長其實14位來講過去的4年其實都還蠻順暢的有個 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7229.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7243.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
有一個優點就是說其實他們不會比可能不會比委員人數還多但是有一個優點就是說他們在會議的發言權或是這些請問一下他們有投票權嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7245.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7262.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
現在是有投票但是過去的13屆委員從來沒有用投票來表決議案合議制但是有一些不同的意見其實都會透過之前院會之前或審查會之前來溝通協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7265.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7279.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
總之我已經提出了這個問題我認為這是很重要的事情因為這個基本上就證明了考試委員到底重不重要這可以請王委員自己去思考另外我接下來講的就是有關於波波醫生的問題因為其實這段時間波波醫生的爭議也引起了本土醫生派跟外國 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7290.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7295.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
一生派互相交戰本席認為關鍵點還是在於考試院與衛福部之間的問題您之前曾經擔任過衛生署副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7314.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7336.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
您擔任衛生署副署長的時候那時候應該已經知道有波波醫生的這件事了吧其實我們所謂的外國學歷波蘭回來的這些學生的問題已經有一段時間了那在當時您擔任副署長的時候都沒有想到說有心要去解決這個問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7338.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7343.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
所以其實從衛福部的角度來講會認為這個東歐國家的這個醫學院的學歷的證明基本上是沒有辦法去佐證這些畢業的醫學生的醫生的實力是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7365.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7392.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我想這樣就是說因為醫師就是醫事人員都一樣就是說尤其是醫師他的考試資格是定在醫師法那醫師法就是變成高位那考選部的立場就是考試院的立場就是審查考試資格那考試資格就必定要是 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7393.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7417.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
衛福部依據醫師法來訂定的那簡單來說就是說現在這群所謂的在東歐國家畢業的醫學院的學生回來台灣考過了國家考試那你們認為他們是不夠那個資格嗎他們的考試即便他們通過了考試甚至可能還名列前茅你們還是同樣的認為他們是不夠格嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7418.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7442.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
我覺得這個就是要看就是職業主管機關怎麼去認定就是說認定學歷因為您曾經擔任過副署長所以您對於整個衛福部的業務是了解的您認為衛福部他們現在所開出來的這樣子的一個條件或者是學歷的認證證明是不充足的嗎是不夠充分的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7445.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7467.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
細緻上我也是看媒體關心這個問題我相信衛福部現在目前已經在研議更嚴謹跟就是通常我們就是認證學歷就是跟我們國家的學制呢顯有相當那當然這個就是看看怎麼去認定那個資格 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7469.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7487.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
謝謝王委員說實在話衛福部他們已經修了相關的條件就是外國學歷的認證的條件越修越嚴格那麼我要講的就是說是因為現在這些東歐國家他們加入歐盟體系所以即便是德國、法國這些國家他們也是認同也是認可 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7489.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7493.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
波蘭等等這些國家的醫學院的畢業生．同樣也是要經過他們國家的考試．才能夠取得在當地國家的醫師資格．同樣的道理其實在臺灣也是如此．今天衛福部又說對於實習分發名只能夠有50個不能再擴充． |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7508.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7535.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
現在問題就是說因為已經有了這幾百位甚至上千位還沒有實習過的畢業生而他們也通過了考選部的國家考試所以我本席認為站在考試院的立場你們還是要去設法去解決這個問題要跟衛福部好好的去談未來的考試要怎麼舉辦甚至這些實習名額要怎麼去分配否則大家還是把帳會算在考試院的頭上 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7538.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7556.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
針對這個問題我想就是教育部、考選部還有衛福部應該要坐下來一起來談好的那麼接下來我還有一個另外一個重要也是我蠻關心的問題我們知道其實現在有公務人員的相關法規從公務人員服務法 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7556.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7585.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
公務人員考機法、福利保障法等等非常多與公務人員相關的法規但是政務人員到現在卻沒有一個很完整的法律配套措施就沒有一個完整的法律規範請問您是否認同我們應該要將政務人員的規範法制化訂立一個專法明訂政務人員法 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7587.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7607.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
像那個廣義的公務人員確實是包括政務人員那到底說政務人員也是受服務法這些還有行政中立法這些的規範那到底是要專法或是怎麼樣能夠讓他密度更強我覺得這個是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7608.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7626.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那個事實上考試院在2019年也曾經有提出了一個政務人員法的草案那麼當時呢其實應該有送到立法院但沒有想到反對的是行政院行政院說考試院沒有權責不可以提出政務人員法請問王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7632.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7658.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
您支持行政院的說法嗎您在這件事情上面怎麼看到底誰是政務人員法的主管機關因為其實考試院雖然是獨立行使職權但是很多的政策其實都要跟行政院有一些相關的溝通讓這個法制更周全所以我覺得這個議題現在行政院說你們沒有資格提法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7660.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7672.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
你會認為考試院沒有資格提政務人員法的草案嗎我覺得可以來討論就是兩方到底是有沒有什麼困難或是怎麼樣比較周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7674.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7699.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
行政院說如果說是由考試院來提政務人員法的草案的話這個是不適當的因為所有的政務人員幾乎都是在行政院的底下所以考試院沒有資格提政務人員法草案但是有趣的是我們現在政務人員的退職退輔條例的主管機關是哪個機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7700.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7729.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
是全序部考試院是全序部考試院所以我認為說考試院你們應該堅定你們的立場這個才是你們重要的職長讓行政院自己去訂一個政務人員法的草案他會去規範政務人員應該要秉持行政中立嗎尤其像現在民進黨政府他會去積極的去規範這個政務官不可以參與政治活動不可以選舉的時候去站台嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7732.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7758.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
不會嘛所以這就是考試院的重要其實我一直不贊成廢考監我認為在中華民國五權憲法的架構底下它其實本來是有作用的只是換了一個不了解憲法不認真的去思考當時國父孫中山先生所提出的五權分立的這樣一個精神的民進黨政府它把五權機關搞爛了 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7762.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7786.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
考試院本來應該是獨立行使職權 監察院也是所以我認為 本席認為您如果接下來作為考試委員我覺得還是要能夠承擔考試院的職權職務而不是說是行政院說什麼 賴總統說什麼你們就把你們的職權拱手讓人 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7790.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7819.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
這是很不恰當的是很不妥當的否則的話我真的不覺得為什麼我們還要花我們還要去聘請九位考試委員好那接下來呢我要再問一個再這個繼續就是再請您就是就這個我們也是立法院要提出關於這個公務人員也就是所謂的退休人員年改的這個相關修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7820.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7844.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
那麼王委員您因為長期也都在學界您現在已經辦理退休了嗎現在還沒有退休還沒有退休或者是私校是是是不過同樣的道理啦如果說您今天已經要退休了或是即將退休就會沒想到呢你們的這個學校或是政府說你的這個退休金很抱歉因為我們財務困難我付不出來所以要扣減 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7849.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7850.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
您會認同這樣的說法嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7852.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7879.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
我想因為年改就是說10年所得替代率最終目標那現在已經走到一半了我們是不是就是說因為也有一些就是積極的一些策略來讓公務人員退休公務人員能夠更好的生活王委員我要講一件事就是錯誤的政策應該讓他繼續走下去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7882.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7909.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個其實對於軍公教退休人員的影響非常大他不只是對軍公教退休人員影響很大甚至連現在軍公教人員的禁用都已經受到這個相關的影響因為大家以前認為說當了軍公教人員我是一個安定的工作雖然說薪水可能比不上外面的公司的待遇但是可以預期未來的退休生活我的退休是有保障的所以才願意這個來 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7911.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7936.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
當任國家的公僕可是現在的情況你把軍公教退休人員的退休金本來已經都拿到手上而且預期國家應該會保障的結果一個政策大轉彎然後大砍軍公教的退休金這叫已經退休的人他們是很難過的心裡會覺得很難過 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7940.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7965.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
對那現在的整個通貨膨脹各方面其實真的這小小的退休金已經很難讓他們這個滿足他們的生活所以我基本上不認同您的說法說因為這個政策已經走不到一半所以要讓它走完它明明它就是一個錯誤的政策我們就應該要暫停好所以再請您表達一下您的看法您是否支持我們立法院這次所提出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7967.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7991.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
修法要將現在已經錯誤的政策喊停我想已經就是各種考量了因為制度的穩定性也是很重要還有就是因為未來年輕世代的一些負擔等等那所以在考試院下可以做的CPI值如果累計5%的話那到目前為止111年 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7993.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8015.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
王委員您還是不太在乎您的同事、學界同事、軍公教人員的福利保障我就要講就是政府口口聲聲說財務虧損沒有錢去補這些退收金但是他可以每年花這麼多的錢去買軍售去撥補五千億給台電不要說沒有錢以上謝謝翁曉琳委員資訊也謝謝王教授的備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8022.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8050.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
接下來我們請登記第五位陳素月委員請咨詢謝謝院長請院長邀請王被提名人再請王教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8059.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8085.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
總委員好王秀文提名人早安那您此次就是被總統提名就是第十四屆的這個考試委員那我看了一下這個名單就是您是總統提名的這九位裡面就是會繼續連任的就是其中兩位的為二的其中一位那我也看了一下您的這個學經歷都非常的優秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8086.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8098.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
因為您也擔任過了第十三屆考試院的委員所以本席在這邊是不是可以請您先說一下您在第十三屆任內對於整個國家考試有什麼具體的一個事蹟讓國人能夠了解一下我簡單講就是說因為我第一次進院會的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8112.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8129.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
發言建議我們考試院或是考選部未來一定要趕快推動電腦化國家市場那當然除了就是說考慮護理人員即測即評趕快進到職場之外目前也很多的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8129.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8130.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
Iwan Nawi |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8153.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8173.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
一萬六千個座位數所以可以考試的類科越來越多我想這個是我們努力的一個成果那另外就是因為我剛好也是護理醫療專業所以我們在第13屆考試院的實習其實遇到的疫情剛好是兩年多 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8174.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8189.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
所以我透過自己過去的醫療專業防疫的一些專業也提供了一些相關的考試考選這些考試院的一些相關的措施的建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8192.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8210.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
我們知道考試院就是要替我們國家臨聘這個就是這個優秀的公務人員這個人力進入這個公部門來服務那政府要提供人民這個優質的一個公共服務所需這個人力資源是非常的一個重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8210.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8218.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
近幾年有關國家考試、公務人員考試﹑錄取不足額情形從2020年至2023年公務員高普考錄取不足額情形每年錄取不足額人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8233.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8237.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
2021年不足293人2020年有209人2021年有293人2022年有30人2023年有268人今年2024年有361人 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8250.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8269.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那因為這樣子的一個不足額的一個狀況可能是會造成用人機關的人力需求或者是運用調派都會造成很大的一個影響那所以就王被提名的人因為你也擔任過一屆的這個考試委員了那對於這樣的一個情況您的看法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8270.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8299.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
因為第13屆考試院團隊也非常關心這個問題持續在關注這樣的一個議題所以如果以未來如果普遍性的高普考的人數當然有一些很多的策略就是怎麼樣宣導怎麼樣跟學校合作怎麼樣跟機關合作等等這個是普遍性的問題但是這裡提到就是不足的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8300.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8315.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
不足耳的人數也有經過分析就是缺耳最多就是土木工程、建築工程類似這方面工程的所以當然就是說這方面要怎麼樣解決其實也提出了一些策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8316.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8318.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8334.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8350.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
有出去了還有一種就是我們發現就是說土木工程這類的人呢大概越偏遠地區的越缺人所以也是往都市流動那很多種種的原因呢也修了一個叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8351.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8376.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
專紀人員轉任公務人員條例也希望就是說對於這些不足爾機關非常困擾那怎麼樣去有一個多元彈性的禁用管道讓他們就是一進來的時候他的官等就稍高比如說7等或是8等還有他的升遷等等我們就是做了一些彈性的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8377.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8393.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
這可能要多方面去做一個檢討我們本期也有發現到其實隨著時代的一個進步整個社會形態也都會跟著改變尤其是現在是這個第四代因為我們知道整個目前新進公務人員已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8394.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8401.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長：提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長：許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長：邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧：許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長： |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8416.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8426.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以在這個部分是不是也是會造成就是說新的年輕人比較不願意進入到公部門服務是不是也有這樣子的一個因素背景因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8427.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8446.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
在這個部分就是請教王被提名人就是說在就這樣子的世代差異那公部門在管理作為跟組織文化上應該要做怎樣的調整才能夠提高年輕人投入公職的一個意願然後讓組織內跨世代工作者之間能夠有好的一個互動 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8448.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8469.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
確實這個議題非常重要我們除了怎麼樣領選出來這樣的好的國家的人才其實留任也非常重要讓他們流動不要那麼快因為現在進到公務體系的人越來越多是Z世代剛剛委員有提到他們所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8470.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8471.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
主管、領導、管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8486.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8512.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
我覺得這個模式一定要改變我們不能再用過去比較權威式或是科程主義的方式來對待這樣新世代的年輕人那可以給他們更多的發揮空間然後讓他們從這樣的發揮呢然後可以怎麼樣可以讓他們得到這種工作的價值跟意義那所以我覺得當然很多啦還可以然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8512.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8535.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
尊重的職場環境非常重要就是友善尊重的職場環境Z世代他們喜歡工作跟家庭的平衡所以我覺得就是比較資深的跨世代的資深的或是主管也應該要適時的去尊重他們這樣的選擇以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8537.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8546.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
對於整個公務體系的人力的資源我們除了考試來禁用新進的人員對於現有的公務人員他們的升遷也好、調動也都非常重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8558.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8575.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
在幾年前我們有看到一個現象在2010年開始六個直轄市陸續設立所以也產生了一個現象就是說造成一般縣市、非直轄市的縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8577.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8600.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
主管級的原額和職務劣等沒有隨之調整所以造成六都對鄰近縣市公務人員造成很大的磁吸效應針對這個現象本席在2018年的時候也跟了幾位委員召開了一個記者會呼籲說要來調整職務的劣等平均、平衡城鄉的發展所以後來我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8604.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8621.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
我本席看到資料剛開始行政院就同意了可是考試院那時候是有一些意見的不過後來也同意了就是說對於科長級或者是副局處首長的我們有調整了他的職務的列等可是對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8622.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8624.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
Iwan Nawi主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8652.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8652.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8679.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8692.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
割新 比如說剛剛委員講的 課長是以前就已經處理了那我們這一屆大概就是說委任的本來有一個上限那現在委任的百分比就有一點調降 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8694.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8720.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
委任條件有什麼好處就是讓上面那一集的很重要的中間的專員跟記證他就有調升的空間當然是職務列等也考慮到職者程度、業務性質還有其他機關的層次所以我覺得未來如果還有不足的地方確實也要看看直轄市跟縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8724.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8734.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
指甲式跟縣市政府之間的差異還有中央跟地方的差異當然可以來逐步來檢討這是我覺得也相當重要的一個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8735.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8760.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
我是覺得說因為都是要為這個百姓服務不能讓公務人員有那種就是好像同工不同酬的那樣子的一個差別待遇同樣有面對的這樣繁重的一個就是公務就是選民的一個就是百姓的一個工作要做可是他們得到的一個不管是職等或者是薪資 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8761.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8775.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
都跟這個中央或者是直轄市差距太大的話我想這樣子是不公平的所以我們也希望就是說針對這個部分我們未來考試院也可以做進一步的一個檢討然後跟調整這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8777.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8803.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
接下來本席想關心一下有關護理師人力缺口的問題本席其實我們在基層做的選民服務也經常會面臨到鄉親請託可能他們的親人或長輩在急診室住了兩三天了結果都還等不到病床要我們去拜託我們替他關心的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8803.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8805.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8829.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8839.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
在第13屆的資歷裡面好像有針對護理方的部分有提出了12項的策略這部分是不是也可以請你再先簡單講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8841.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8862.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
我想這個是行政院已經合備通過就是十二項的護理人力的整備計畫那其實是衛福部題但是呢因為裡面牽涉到人才培育人才培育就包括教育部然後到考選部之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8862.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8882.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
裁到職場那職場當然是有包括很重要的就是職場的改善這個是目前護理人力我想最關心的問題就是說他們的負擔啊然後就是薪資的改善這三大塊那職場的改善當然三班戶並比 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8883.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8911.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
所以三班護病比是還沒入法如果入法的話可能護理人力的需求會更重要所以剛剛委員提到的為什麼護理人力是非常重中之重因為它是第一線而且它是受法規約束你如果護病比沒有達標的話醫院就要關床所以我想最近可能委員也都會聽到很多找不到床醫師沒有辦法開刀然後都留在急診 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8912.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8937.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
因為他不能收病人依法是不能收病人因為沒有護理人力所以我想這個是我為什麼我覺得非常關心就是教育部、考選部跟衛福部要共同來尋求解方那考選部呢去年就已經增加第三次有一些民眾或是媒體誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8938.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8966.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
說是放水放寬其實是沒有的大家去看看那個考試的題目還很多的老師跟學生說現在的題目是非常的臨床情境式的還要思考的題目所以是沒有所謂比較放寬但是呢11就是說11月的已經考完了快放吧11月的第3次的護理師國家考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8967.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8994.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
有很好的效益為什麼因為他是7月畢業生還沒考上他只要兩三個月再充斥結果很多學校知道這樣又把這些沒有考上的學生叫到學校去輔導所以呢我們去年11月第三次的考試呢通過率是比較高啦就是因為他重考嘛是38算通過率很高了啦那挹注了將近2700多人 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8997.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9007.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
所以這個是對於人力是真的是缺口是有幫忙的所以大家就是教考信用一定要共同來尋求一些解方 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9008.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9032.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
對 就是剛剛王貝提名人有提到這個教考訓用這樣子的一個連結非常的一個重要那當然就是說這個會牽涉到教育部然後還有我們考試院還有之後職場的整個一個連結所以這樣子的一個連結的一個溝通可能也是涉及到這個部會關係就是之前的一個溝通平台這個也是非常的一個重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9033.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9046.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
本席想再請教一個問題就是說在我們看到前任的薛瑞文部長他任內的時候他有提到說公戶護理師要達到50%的比例這個問題就是說明年公職護理師比例要升到50%的問題這是去年講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9057.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9058.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
護理人員要進到公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9077.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9091.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
公職護理師公職護理師是另外有高考三級是不同的考試經過公務人員任用所以他是屬於公職護理師那缺額是 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9095.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9119.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
競爭非常激烈但是這是一個很好的管道我也希望人種或是各機關是不是能夠釋出更多的缺另外公子護理師就是另外的一個軌道叫做護理人員他有經驗了他是從醫事人員人事條例進去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9120.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9137.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那醫事人員人事條例進去就是我們所謂的10級嘛13級、12級、11級那大部分從這個就是說如果醫療體系他有缺額或是一些其他的那個機關適用醫事人員人事人事條例的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9138.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9150.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
他就會公開甄選然後聘用那這些所以那個薛部長講的是這些因為很多的醫院是用約聘僱人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9151.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9153.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9171.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9173.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
其實在剛剛的王貝提名人的回覆裡面有提到包括高補考不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9186.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9206.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
有很明顯的這個類別的有差異性那剛剛有提到這個教考訓用的連結其實這個都會凸顯出其實我們現在在整個公部門的一個職場就是這個女性的在不同類別的女性比例跟男性比例有一些差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9207.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9218.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
所以這個跟整個優良的一個就是職場環境也會有很大的一個差異那這個部分我不曉得說我們考試院可以有什麼樣的一個做法努力的方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9219.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9248.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我一直都非常注意這樣的訊息就是說因為我是非常代言性別平等所以考試院的各項數據我都非常注意但是我們有一個很好的現象就是說最近檢任官女性的檢任官已經差不多40%了所以這個就是說已經有讓她有升遷而且可以擔任高階文官這個是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9250.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9270.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
好 那我們也希望就是說在新一屆的這個考試院那在你們的這個努力之下可以讓我們的國家經用更多優秀的公務人員然後提升整個公部門的一個效率那也感謝你們好 謝謝陳樹越委員的資訊也謝謝王教授的備詢好 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9279.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9304.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
接下來我們再請登記第6位羅廷偉委員請諮詢謝謝院長請王秀紅被提名麻煩再請王教授備選羅委員好王教授好 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9305.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9329.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
教授最近有一則新聞吸引了我去點閱想跟你分享這網路PTT有在討論有關於年輕人對於公務人員鐵飯碗這一個部分大家都覺得已經不再是鐵飯碗而且還有一點生鏽很多人在網路上討論說考公務人員的CP值降低了這則新聞你有看過嗎有 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9331.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9351.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
我們考試院其實對於媒體對於公務體系的一些相關訊息也都會掌握那像在上一屆您就擔任考試委員那有沒有可以讓國人更加清楚了解考試院的到底有沒有什麼具體的一個作為讓我們能夠以以為傲您可不可以舉例一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9353.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9373.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
因為就是說PPT或是什麼都會有一些不同的聲音所以在考試院也希望能夠讓數據說話所以會做一些研究因為有時候是個案幾個個案這樣子當然就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9373.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9394.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
整個未來年輕人怎麼樣吸引年輕人或是建立這樣年輕人在公務體系的價值這些也非常重要黃教授不好意思我的問題是上一任你在擔任考試委員的時候有沒有更具體的作為考試院有什麼樣的一個政策讓國人有感你可以說出來舉例一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9396.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9413.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
因為我們就是因為年輕人有這樣的不同的聲音所以我們就會用各種方式到學校去宣講然後讓大家看到說公務人員他其實他的價值然後公務人員的考試還有就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9414.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9438.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
我們也檢科嘛檢科也是年輕人因為到學校去也聽到說他們的需求跟他們的關心就認為說科目太多那當然就是還有一些考試的方式等等那是不是盡量用數位化這個他們是比較喜歡的這種數位化的 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9439.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9466.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
還是沒有聽出來就是說在上一任有具體的一個作為您所提到的可能檢科考試的一個問題但是我想實際跟民眾的有感還是有一定的差距後續我有幾個問題想跟你請教我想在這一次考試院長被提名的周弘憲過去曾經表態考試院的存在不是考試公平以及文官中立的必要條件那也有委員在上週問他周弘憲曾經說過去對這部分沒有思考若大家有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9467.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9485.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
會尊重所以11月26號也有委員在提到問考試院的副院長問說這個部分廢考試院的一個相關問題那副院長提名人在說我國五權憲法設計特殊世界各國大部分都是三權分立的憲法結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9486.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9504.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
如果在這方面的檢討針對五權憲法跟三權分立有所討論不需要考試院存在那就做調整看起來大家對考試院的存在都有一個模擬兩可的一個定論唯一能夠確知的就是社會大眾同意廢考監那考試院的大家都會尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9504.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9525.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
那麼我想從您的自傳可以看出您與民進黨的關係也非常的密切您在扁政府時期承認副署長衛生署的副署長將近四年多民進黨的委員在第八屆曾經提廢考監因民進黨的黨綱也是往三權分立來做一個推動那麼本席想請問你幾個問題第一現階段您贊成廢考監嗎請就問題直接回答謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9532.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9548.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我想現在就是依據憲法就是五權分立所以站在考試院的立場就是要把就是憲法一憲法當然我可以認同但是我要了解蔚蘭您的態度所以我想請問一下您支持廢考監嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9551.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9566.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
我覺得非考也不是考試院的職權那如果說立法院或是各界大家都有比較大的共識然後如果啟動我想考試院永遠的職責就是行使 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9567.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9594.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
考試院的職權一定要維護我想您的回答有一點更磨您兩可我要再次的強調剛剛我說的被提名人周弘憲他是考試院的院長提名人他就說了他會問考試委員的意見那當然他會尊重考試委員而現在我在問考試委員而每一個考試委員都說他會尊重社會大眾那到底最後決定的是民眾嗎那考試委員都不需要任何的表態嗎所以我想就問題來回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9594.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9603.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
您支不支持廢考監可不可以直接回答我支持或不支持這不是一個陷阱題我只是想知道您的態度而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9604.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9631.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
我覺得依據現在就是五權五權那如果說未來社會的共識是要往三權的話我覺得考試院的職責還是要無縫接軌就是說各種配套措施一定要銜接這是我目前的想法我想之前就有考試院的院長就有說他是末代院長的一個準備那我想任何人的一個發言我們並不會批評我們只是想知道態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9631.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9648.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
因為我們要去了解被提名的人到底他的態度是如何才可以了解我們該不該行使這個權利去投票那我們要知道到底要支持還是反對所以我想您的態度很重要那我想若您贊成的話我先當作您贊成好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9648.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9665.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
若您贊成的話請問您擔任這個任務型的考試委員您覺得為國家的文官制度發揮有什麼樣的一個作用您能依據您過去的學習以及經歷以及國家的考選制度做什麼樣的一個貢獻以及改革這個部分能不能分享一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9667.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9681.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
國家的考選非常重要所以我過去就是以符應現在Z世代的需求那就是電腦化跟數位化的考試還有就是希望能夠增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9683.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9705.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
公務人員、高階公務人員的參與﹐讓我們的考試更多元、更彈性﹐符應現在的需求﹐就是增加口試的占比﹐或是一些英文的占比﹐這是考選方面﹐當然是其實考選非常重要的﹐就是整個試題的品質﹐還有跟專業團體的對話﹐這是考選的部分﹐當然公務人員﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9711.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9736.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
就是公務人員的保障跟培訓也非常重要那我過去就我的專業呢我在也是因為認為性別也就是說考試院的施政綱領很重要就是人權跟性別平等的弱勢所以我就我的專業呢我也協助邀請就是性別平等相關的專業委員我們嚴寧初 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9741.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9767.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
法定訓練各層級不同的法定訓練的性別教材案例去年已經實施課程所以這個課程跟教學的滿意度非常高那當然整個考試院是一個合議制那有關考權保訓的議題我們都是會有相關的建議或是相關政策的推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9767.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9787.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
這個部分我先補充一下剛剛我說若您贊成我假設您是贊成但是我為什麼要假設您是贊成我要先再提醒你一次2020年您被提名時曾經回應過非考試院是社會關注的一個議題如果立法院提出修憲尊重並且支持這是您當時所講過的一個話 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9790.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9811.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
轉型過渡期對於考試各家的權益保障仍需持續推動我想換到2024現在這個問題依舊在這邊我們希望您能夠面對問題提出問題的解決方案這是我們現在現階段很重視的一個那麼未來如果真的修改憲法變成三權分立的時候對於考試院的考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9812.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9831.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
用人、訓練以及公務人員的保障、權序徵還有權序的部分的體制未來的轉型改革您本人有什麼看法因為如果未來要轉型其實考試因為考試院是國家最高考試機關所以對於就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9832.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9856.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
我們的公民的考試權、扶公子的權益是非常重要的所以或許未來如果要轉型不可能沒有業務都一定在那考試院這個考選部這個國家考試或許可以一個怎麼樣的獨立機關因為現在考選部的國家考試我相信是受到社會大眾非常的信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9858.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9869.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
認為是公平公正好 那我請問一下考試院現在執掌的例如考選跟保全在未來的三權分立的制度下應該由何一個機關來做一個執掌請問你有曾經思考這個問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9871.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9900.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
所以我說考試制度可能是一個獨立機關因為它比較是一個獨立行使職權的機關那其他的就是權序的問題或公務人員保障跟培訓或許可以跟行政院共同來討論因為跟行政院人總或是怎麼樣讓他銜接會比較好這個就是變成大家要共同坐下來討論跟一些權益跟配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9901.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9915.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我想您是唯一有護理及公共衛生背景的一個被提名人承認衛生署的副署長在高一大副校長及臺灣護理學會的理事長具有護理師、證照等本席想請問你有聽過波波醫生嗎有 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9919.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9935.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
這個是長期關注的問題最近大家都很關注所以我想問你一個問題最近有一個判決揭露台北高等行政法院在111年數字第259號的一個判決內容提到有一位波波醫生Z先生他赴波蘭就讀一學期 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9936.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9954.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
一入學就直上三年級他在一天內考試、面試、入學一次搞定六年制的醫學系他從三年級入學只讀三年半就畢業結果返國後無法報考國考取得國內醫師執照後來因為執政黨的立委主導修法醫師法 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9956.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9967.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
終於考取了反過來提告請求損害賠償相當於一年住院醫師的薪資損害並請求利息向考試院求償180萬元當然後來法院駁回了 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9971.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9993.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
不僅如此波波醫生近年來遭到媒體揭露多起的醫療疏失以及臨床的傷亡另外我們也都知道另外凡有國外的學歷者回台考試前其所持的國外學歷都必須經過一個學歷查證的認定審核機制以及程序賴清德總統也曾經說過也承諾了針對國外的學歷審查會更加的嚴謹並將含授遠距教學以及對 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10000.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10012.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
為對外公開的招生學歷資格予以排除提高了對國家考試的一個門檻上一屆您也是考試委員應該也很清楚波波醫師的爭議不斷那麼針對這樣的問題您對未來考試資格的規劃有什麼具體的一個做法好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10020.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10047.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
因為醫師的考試資格特別是定定在醫師也還是中醫師都一樣就是定定在醫師法所以如果以因為用人主管機關他有他的規範那如果是要報考就是醫師的資格考試就要在就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10049.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10067.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
考選部就是依據醫師法的資格就是外國的國內當然沒有問題國內都很清楚因為學制都一致那針對外國因為學制非常不同所以就會有一個審核機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10068.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10083.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
您講這個我們都知道我現在就是嚴格審查您知不支持有沒有具體的一個作為所以因為這個是我覺得就是醫師的職業是關乎到我們國人的健康跟生命安全所以您支持嚴格審查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10085.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10111.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
確實是應該要嚴格審查我想國家禁用人才啊如何能夠適才適所我們都一直很關心之前考試院也有提過也有討論到強化用人機關參與選才的一個機制但被民眾批評是大後門時代全審以及任用是考試院重要的一個權責但本席近來發現未不多起自行審任資格任用的約聘 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10112.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10123.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
為考試院第十四屆院長．茲依據憲法增修條文第十三屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．黃東益、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長． |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10138.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10156.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
委員提到的可能如果是衛福部應該就是一些醫院的用人醫院用人因為牽涉到醫事人員人事條例那是另外一塊但是現在為什麼12項整備計畫就是裡面有一項公職護理師 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10157.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10185.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
要提升因為大部分的醫院其實不管是衛福部、教育部或是國防部、退服會他們都是有相關的醫院那些醫院其實確實是用大量的約聘僱人員尤其是護理人員回大眾確實就是說應該是在合理的範圍應該讓他們變成正職所以我點出的問題您也有發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10187.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10205.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
各部會都有這樣子大量聘用約聘顧我希望考試院能夠去協助並且能夠去幫忙補救這些作為自行認定的部分書有缺失所以我希望考試院在五院之一也佔有重要的一個角色應該去協助各部會這部分您可以認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10206.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10225.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
認同那再來勞動部的霸凌事件有一件事情大家都沒有注意商調中的過程需要用人機關同意過調的一個時間如果過調時間為四個半月到半年等同被動使需要的機關放棄錄取 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10228.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10248.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
這個部分我想在過程當中我們都有看到案件申請商調者被迫繼續待在遭霸凌機關讓商調的制度等同於是上調的制度您覺得考試院在商調的制度可以有什麼作為您有看到問題嗎確實我以前也有關注這個問題比如說因為要 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10252.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10278.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
要撫養三足歲以下的小孩等等的需求所以我覺得未來當然是因為這個是用人機關他的權限或是說他有沒有符合這些要商調的公務人員的需求我覺得未來這一塊我們可以有一些追蹤機制或是怎麼樣讓他更符合這些公務人員的需求我覺得確實要被關注的 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10278.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10300.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
我想大家關注在霸凌以及後續的一些處理程序以及協助這些被霸凌者能夠接觸他但是商調的這個部分我們看到層出不窮的一個問題所謂的需求機關不斷地提出需求但是用人機關不斷地不放人造成這個過程當中有急迫性的家庭需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10301.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10328.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
或者是個人因素甚至是遭霸凌的這些人到底要怎麼樣在商調的時間、過程能夠來去幫忙他們我想在這個部分上我點出了問題我希望有具體的作為來協助他們所以被提名的人我點出了這些問題您說您也關注但有沒有具體的方法後續能不能看到有排列這樣的工作去做討論、去做協助您願意承諾嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10330.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10354.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我覺得這個未來確實是應該追蹤機制為什麼商調不成那些原因我覺得確實因為現在公務人員的未來要商調我想有時候是養育小孩或是說因為照顧父母等等有各種家庭的因素或是個人的因素確實應該受到一些相關的保障或是關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10355.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10365.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
好再來目前國考的錄取率在部分的錄取率極高的一個狀況之下以112年為例勞工、財稅、行政近10%經濟行政15%公職受益55% |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10371.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10390.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
技術類的平均20而護理近50%但報考人數竟確切的下降請問是否會發生考試通過考試的數值低落間接促使公部門在服務的品質能夠下滑未來有什麼改進的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10392.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10413.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
我想這個因為每個類科﹐他的考試規則跟資格﹐不太一樣有時候就是說﹐看需求面﹐還有市場面﹐譬如說護理師﹐他的錄取率﹐如果相較於﹐及格率﹐如果相較於其他醫事人員﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10414.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10435.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
像醫師90幾或是有一些都不太一樣那物理治療師他就可能20幾營養師也是20幾所以從及格率來看其實有時候很難對應到他的品質問題是用人機關的需求他的核心職能是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10436.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10465.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以每個考試的類科他有他的考量所以他到底要怎麼樣的入局要怎麼樣的及格率都有各種不同的規定好 那這個問題就點出了我想護理人員的工時長壓力大、風險高薪資報酬不成比例勞動條件不佳這大家都知道導致護理人力長期的短缺本期質詢前有先發文請你提供對於相關事項的一個回應就如同你剛剛所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10466.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10480.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
核心職能這個是你所關注的可是之前考選部為緩解護理師人力不足的一個問題考選部突然降低了護理國考的一個門檻把難度較高的基礎醫學比例調降 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10481.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10508.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
結果被網友記下乾脆取消國考這也跟你回復說要提升題庫試題質和量的事件有一點矛盾我想請被提名人能夠清楚簡單的明確回應降低考試難度解決護理能力短缺是正確的方向嗎好 這其實是有一些誤解降低基礎醫學的占比已經沒有了但是我們希望就是說基礎醫學其實是要連床運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10524.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10533.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
謝謝羅庭委委員的質詢也非常感謝我們被提名人王秀紅教授你的備詞謝謝請坐那也跟全院委員會來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10537.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10559.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
我們接下來是登記第七位許智傑委員改為書面我們列入紀錄刊登公報特別跟全院委員會報告一下今天針對考試委員被提名人王秀紅教授的詢答到此為止我們再一次感謝王被提名人您的列席答詢再次感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10560.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10572.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
那也跟全院委員會報告我們現在休息五分鐘休息之後我們下列進行對考試委員被提名人呂秋慧女士之詢問我們現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10911.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10926.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
各位全院委員會我們現在繼續開會我們進行審查考試委員被提名人呂秋慧女士之資格是否施任相關事項我們現在請被提名人呂秋慧女士說明時間為10分鐘您可以調整麥克風 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10940.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10965.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天很榮幸能以考試委員被提名人的身份到大院來做報告並接受同意權行使的審查與詢答我是一個典型的常任文官大學畢業後即分發到全序部服務從此開啟我與全序部長達42年的緣分 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10967.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10984.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
其間除奉派到國家安全會議．擔任三年的人事室主任外．其餘皆在全序部工作．在全序部服務期間．配合職務輪調的施行．我幾乎呆便每個單位． |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10985.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11004.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
從最基層的科研專員、科長檢任視察、副司長到司長我曾經擔任過三個主要業務司的司長之後升任主任秘書常務次長在今年1月16日屆齡退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11006.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11022.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
我的公務生涯幾乎都在全序部度過．也因此與考試院關係密切．結下很深的緣分．考試院是國家最高考試機關．依憲法增修條文第6條規定． |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11024.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11045.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
長禮一、考試二、公務人員之權序保障復續退休三、公務人員任免考機及奉升遷褒獎之法制事項為執行憲法賦予的職長事項．考試院下設考選部．負責辦理各項公務人員考試與專門職業及技術人員考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11050.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11078.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
堅負為國舉財、延攬優秀人才．進入政府部門或民間服務的重責大任．近年來配合考試院推動的數位轉型．考選工作上不僅積極擴大電腦化測驗．並致力於聚合更多福音現代需要的考選軟體資源．以加速推動國考數位轉型． |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11080.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11106.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
未來在考試技術上．也必須思考如何精進．除筆式外．能採納其他方式或口試．必考出真正能為國家奉獻心力的人才．在考試作答方面．也應配合現代資訊化的發展．逐步改以電腦作答．必減少考生用手書寫的負擔． |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11108.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11115.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
同時更需思考如何強化與用人機關連結請聽機關之專業意見以適應政府機關的用人需求引進各專業領域的所需人力 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11125.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11139.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
至於權敘部是公務人員人事法制的主管機關．負責文官體系官制官規的建立．考試院的執掌事項中．大多數都是為它所掌理的業務． |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11141.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11158.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
過去這幾年：全緒部亦致力於．各項人事法規之修正與整建．期盼各項規定．能與時俱進、適切可行．由其主管機關所做的各項規定或解釋． |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11159.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11175.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
皆與公務人員的權益息息相關．因此如何兼顧各類人員權益之衡平．並適度解決各機關所面臨之問題．是權序部責無旁貸之事． |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11176.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11203.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我國政府部門之人力可說是由三元體系所建構一為以政治任命之政務人員二為經由國家考試及格之常任公務人員三為以契約禁用之聘僱人員其中公務人員之法制體系大致已完備以契約禁用之聘僱人員法制則有待整建 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11204.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11210.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
必其規定能符應現況需要．以保障取等人員之權益． |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11211.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11239.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
自政務人員之法制則有待努力政務三法中僅政務人員退職撫恤條例完成立法其餘之政務人員法及政務人員奉給條例歷經數十年之努力仍未能完成適如能完備政務人員之法制將使我國三元體系之人事法制更增健全 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11240.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11267.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
另外公務人員保障暨培訓委員會．負責全體公務人員之權益保障．及訓練相關事宜．由需配合時空環境之變化．結合時代的需要．給予所有考進公部門的．服務的優秀人才必要的訓練．增強其應有之新觀念及新知識． |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11268.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11277.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
透過不斷持續的培訓提升公務人員面對數位轉型及全球挑戰的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11278.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11304.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
使文官體系能更穩定而有效的建立．並具有創新思維與國際視野．又為提供公務人員更加安全與衛生之工作環境．保訓會以加強公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法．之規範密度與內涵．除強化安全及衛生防護之組織功能． |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11306.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11318.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
增加外部監督機制及擴大基層人員之參與外也應徵訂高風險職務人員特別防護專節提升對於高風險職務公務人員之安全衛生防護並徵訂監督檢查通報與苛責機制督促各機關確實落實執行以營造安心無虞的職場環境 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11336.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11364.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
同時保障業務依應持續精進．除健全救濟機制外．以配合考試院數位轉型之政策．廣為宣傳公務人員保障事件．線上申辦平台．提高公務人員及服務機關之使用率．保障案件的處理更具便利與． |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11365.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11387.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
Iwan Nawi 被公務人員合法權益能獲得適足的保障人事法規不僅繁複又深具專業性而這些法規依程序皆須呈報考試院審議考試院細數和議制現行考試院雖有所屬三部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11388.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11403.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
各職所司為無論舉辦國家考試之考選部﹐或主管人事法制之權序部﹐甚至負責保障及培訓業務之公務人員保障及培訓委員會﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11404.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11421.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
其工作內容皆與人事行政密切相關且互有聯動原適度引進具有人事行政專業之考試委員有其必要性也將能協助部會將法案做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11422.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11447.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
文官制度的建權與否．攸關國家未來的發展．穩定的文官體系．亦能提升政府的效能及國家競爭力．這次能以常任文官的身份．獲得賴總統的提名．也期盼在大院行使同意權時．能得到各位立法委員的支持． |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11448.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11471.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
如承蒙獲得通過．我將會貢獻自己．畢生努力所累積之人事行政專業．與考試院與三個部會同仁共同努力．致力於考全制度．官制官規之健全與發展．敬請各位委員不吝指正．並給予支持謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11479.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11497.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
謝謝呂秋慧女士的說明與報告報告委員會現在我們進行委員的詢答每位委員詢答時間20分鐘我們採集問及答的方式進行輪到詢問的委員不在場我們視為放棄首先請林益君委員來詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11530.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11534.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
謝主席有請被提名人呂秋慧麻煩請被提名人呂秋慧請備選評委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11548.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11569.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
被提名人你好首先我看了你的簡歷發現你在基本的資料裡面的黨籍的部分寫明是中國國民黨但根據媒體的報導你這一次被提名並未得到國民黨的認同所以事前並不知情還遭到點名要求出面說明交代的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11569.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11596.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
沿國民黨的黨主席朱立倫在6月初接受媒體訪問的時候都有表示未經國民黨中央常務委員會同意擅自接受非國民黨籍執政者延攬成政務官為違反黨的紀律應接受黨的懲處那請問被提名人你究竟有沒有獲得國民黨的推薦可以說明一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11598.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11623.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
報告委員因為我是常年都是擔任常任文官那我雖然具有國民黨籍但是一直都沒有參與黨務的活動那這一次被提名主要是因為我自己在權敘部服務的時間非常的長那權敘部考試院幾乎等於是我第二個家 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11625.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11649.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
長官鼓勵我能夠留在考試院繼續貢獻我的專業我自己也覺得考試委員是一個超出黨派獨立行使職權的職務我也希望能夠把我多年累積的專業能夠繼續貢獻給國家所以我接受賴總統的提名 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11651.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11673.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
我之前確實沒有跟黨部有報備但是在提名之後一個週末週六過了之後禮拜一的當天的6月3號的下午那我有進中央黨部面見黃建廷秘書長有跟他說明了這個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11676.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11688.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
黨部的中央考記會希望針對我們為什麼接受賴總統的提名能夠跟他們有一個書面的答覆我也一線有做了答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11690.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11715.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
因為這樣的話大家會誤認為你是國民黨推薦的人選那接下來我再請問被提名人你知道我國的憲法目前依照是採行政、立法還有司法考試監察五權分立的體制那而就人事行政權來說外界就時常批評說考試院與行政院的執掌根本就是相互重疊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11717.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11737.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
因此長期以來草野各政黨之間的立委也開始都質疑考試委員的人選根本就是有權謀分贓還是酬庸的問題存在甚至連民間的團體專家學者也開始建議國會應該要修憲廢除考試院那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11738.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11761.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
照這樣來講就是前總統蔡英文在2020年其實也曾公開宣布將推動憲改廢除考試院當前最重要的改革就是憲政改革民進黨將推動憲改其中就有廢除考試院這一項的改革所以被提名你知道國會改革組織的改造本來就是要創造 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11762.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11764.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
Iwan Nawi擔任監視委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11783.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11806.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
就算依據憲法第83條的規定．或根據考試院組織的執掌．與重要的業務的說明．表示所有的考試院的業務．其實都已經有其所屬單位．各施其職了那請問你認為．人事的任用權和考選權．是否應該統一有一個機關來執掌就好呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11808.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11836.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
跟委員報告我們國家施行五權分立的這個憲政體制那考試院根據憲法增修條文第6條的規定那多年來在考試院所屬三部會所有同仁共同的努力之下那我們敬敬業業的把所有的工作都做到盡量做到最好 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11838.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11853.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
現在我們跟行政院那邊的分工其實也非常明確大家就依照憲法增修條文的分工原則各自所思各自做自己分內應該做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11854.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11875.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
就我自己在全序部服務這麼多年我覺得目前考試院不管是在辦理考試或者是全序部這邊負責的人事法制業務、官制、官規多年來都做得很努力同仁也都非常的盡職我覺得現階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11879.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11880.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
Iwan Nawi |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11895.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11921.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
好所以那你覺得考試委員究竟有什麼重要必要的功能因為看來我這樣看來感覺是酬庸子因為保障四年座領部長級的高薪還有專屬的司機和助理其實都比我們立法委員還優渥那請問被提名的你知不知道考試委員平常在做些什麼還知不知道考試院的功能還有他的職長和重要最重要的業務是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11922.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11937.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
考試院是一個合意制雖然很多的業務推動主要第一步是在三個部會但是三個部會所做出來的比如說全序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11937.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11960.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
他修任何的人事法規他都要呈報到考試院所以我們考試委員的職責除了協助考選部把各項的考試做好然後也必須協助另外兩個部會把人事法制的相關法規的工作能夠做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11961.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11982.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
這個整個的法案送到考試院來考試院他必須要召開相關的審查會那有的時候甚至一個法案的審查會要開高達十幾次這個比較複雜的法案必須開十幾次我跟委員報告我自己在當司長的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11983.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11997.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我曾經負責法官法的嚴定當時法官法跟施行細則在我們考試院審查會就開了十次那所以所有的考試委員都也必須要投入這樣的一個法制審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11998.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12026.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那另外像我們在進行服務法的修正那是一個高難度的法案那也是在考試院的院會經過多次的討論反覆的研究之後才能夠把法案送出所以所有的考試委員並不像外界所想的好像每天都因應美袋子都沒有試做其實他有很多的法案的審查必須要進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12028.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12036.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
有很多考試要負責典事委員長．或到各分區巡視．保訓會相關訓練保障業務也會適當參與．考試院應該要擴大． |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12047.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12048.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
宣導考試院的職長功能及考試員的不了解和誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12059.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12079.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
好那再請問一下被提名人因為你現職雖然已經退休了但是由你個人的簡介瞭解你這輩子幾乎都是在考試院的全序部服務最後的當到全序部的常務次長那113年1月16號藉您的退休是不是這樣是 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12081.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12094.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
那這表示你長期服務在全序部然後對人事法規還有公務人員的整個人事規定其實是非常的專業的是不是對我服務了42年在全序部 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12095.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12112.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
最相信被提名的你的文官的生涯對於考試院的運作和行政的人事行政上面的管理的相關的法制肯定是非常的專業和熟悉而且有一定相當豐富的參與審議的保障救濟案件的實務經驗是吧有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12114.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12140.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
好那接下來我就想要請問一下被提名的一個有關最近新聞比較吵的沸沸揚揚的真實的案例就是最近公務人員最熱門的新聞議題就是有關勞動部被分署發生基層公務人員被分署長謝宜榮因涉及霸凌導致自殺身亡的不幸事件謝宜榮因為涉及霸凌案所以直接被記了兩大過免職 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12142.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12168.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
至今是否今年是否可以領到年終獎金呢行政院的官員表示那要看當時是否有尋求救濟管道再依據結果如何而定以公務人員要領年終獎金需要12個月份的在職的規定然後謝已被免職了那若沒有提救濟管道就是塵埃落定了所以應該就是領不到年終獎金至官員的表示以公務人員來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12170.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12197.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
考積平等就領不到年終獎金更何況是被祭兩大過上週五11月29號有行政院的官員接受媒體訪問的時候謝一榮也有權益跟自己所屬的機關提出救濟如果對結果不符合也可以再跟保訓會提一切都看救濟的結果的如何決定所以這表示他還是有機會走救濟管道來發案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12198.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12214.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
是的,因為我們的公務人員保障法．他的條文規定得很清楚．所有公務人員對於省政處分．如果有不符的話．那可以在30天之內向保訓會提起復審． |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12216.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12235.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
那謝以榮我根據報紙的媒體的報導他是被勞動部一次計兩大過免職那這個根據考機法的規定一次計兩大過免職的人他必須先停職然後這個中間他可以再依照保障法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12236.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12252.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
在30天之內跟保訓會提起複審那複審的結果他也可以再往上再走到台北高等行政法院去提起行政訴訟這個是我們現在公務人員的一個保障的救濟的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12254.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12281.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
所以像我以立法院來為例我們的人事處其實都有訂定防治跟申訴的處理要點對申訴人都有完整的申訴程序的規定包括要提出申訴然後還要組成調查處理小組還要訪談調查做成調查報告然後還要簽奉院長的核定然後含雙方的當事人如果雙方不服的話調查結果可以再向本院再提出申訴再次組成調查小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12282.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12306.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
然後做出調查報告如果再不服才可以在保訓會提出再申訴可是雖然目前勞動部已經這樣的處理的方式看起來大家好像都是非常的滿意但是暫時消除了眾人的怒火但問題是我發現謝宜蓉好像非常到現在還是非常的有底氣好像完全不是很真誠的道歉的態度所以我想請問一下被提名人依照你長期 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12307.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12325.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
在全序部的專業根據公務人員考機法第12條規定．各機關辦理公務人員平時的考核和專業的考機．一次被計兩大過和免職那機關辦理考機是否都要設置考機委員會呢．由考機委員會來決定考機的結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12326.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12348.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
根據我們考機法的規定各機關應該都要設考機委員會那除了少數人數比較少的比如說鄉鎮市民代表會那種人數少的以外那我們基本上各機關都要設置考機委員會那考機委員會他也有規定他必須要有這個票選委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12350.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12351.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12379.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12408.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
去發布這個獎懲令那隔天就必須要停職那看他自己提不提起這個救濟程序所以剛才你這樣講的就是機關如果做出他的考機行政審處處分之後是他再送到會再送到考試院的的權序部審定嗎如果權序部認為辦理專案考機過程有違反相關的考機法規定依法是否還會再退回原機關作為釋法的處分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12409.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12425.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
我們的專案考機它其實應該是說機關計了一次計兩大過之後那它的獎懲令發布了之後要先辦停職那這個權需部會先受理它的停職案 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12426.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12449.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
那但是他考積免職案的確定是從他那個確定之日免職是從確定之日起生效那這個確定之日就看他自己有沒有提起救濟而且救濟到第幾個層級那個時間就會不一樣所以每一個被一次計兩大過的人他的確定時間會不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12454.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12476.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
據說謝宜榮當天沒有出席考記會陳述和申辯依照你的專業這樣你認為謝宜榮這樣因為霸凌而導致同仁自殺案件背記兩大過免職那是不是有直接關係呢因為他如果都沒有出席的話而且我還發現這兩大過免職的懲處處分過程勞動部似乎也沒有召開人品會和考記會 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12480.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12500.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
這個他個案的狀況其實我都是經由媒體報導知道那真實的狀況可能要看勞動部他們自己內部的調查那但是所有的程序依照考機法的規定都應該要進行程序的規定就是要經過考機委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12502.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12522.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
被提名你也是經過國家考試在全序部一路從科研逐漸高升到長次再退休的那如果像謝業龍最後公務人員真的被免職了這樣雖然不具考試任用的公務人員或常任文官那請問未來他還是可以當機要人員和政務官嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12523.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12532.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
跟委員報告我們公務人員被一次計兩大過免職確定之後那現行的法制他是可以再認的 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12533.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12554.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
也就是說他只是免掉他現職那他還有具有公務人員的身份所以未來他還是可以在任但是我們全序部當時也考慮到有些人馬上在任這個社會觀感真的很不佳所以我們有提了一個考機法的修正案 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12555.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12575.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
對免職的公務員我們比照這個懲戒撤職撤必須要停止任用一至五年的這個規定在考機法的修正案有提了他免職之後要至少一年不能再任那這個是我們現行法治上如果一個公務人員他犯錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12578.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12606.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
上司公務人員任用資格那個必須要走懲戒這一條路那如果被移赴懲戒那懲戒處分裡面的第一項就是免除職務那免除職務呢那個是免掉他的限職之外他也從此不再具有公務人員任用資格就是那個公務人員的資格是上司的所以除非是免職的免除職務這個懲戒處分他就不能夠再任公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12607.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12612.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那依照現行的規定免職是可以在任是他還是可以當政務官嗎 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12614.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12641.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
呃...就是連...所以我就依照你專業的回答啦你認為因為這件事情是真是蠻重大也是蠻惡劣的所以你認為最近謝業榮這個霸凌同仁的案件會不會反而是一個過場的行政瑕疵而且感覺是一種騙局一場好像行政院跟勞動部演了一個大戲給全民來看然後我也發現全體的國會的議員好像也是被勞動部和行政院整個欺騙了這樣所以我才想說 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12642.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12663.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以謝宜龍或許才會有這種囂張的行徑因為他準備要走救濟的管道企圖要恢復整個公職的身份恢復他的一切的權益我想請教依照你這方面的專業嘛我看你的那個上面寫的是這方面的專業那你要怎麼看待謝宜龍遭處分案件這個的疑義呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12666.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12690.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
這個因為牽涉到個案 詳細剛我跟委員報告過我都所有的事情都是透過媒體報紙報章雜誌知道那所以個案的情況我就不方便去講更何況他現在已經提起救濟了照委員剛剛講他有跟保訓會提起救濟那這個已經進入我們考試院所屬的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12691.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12692.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12716.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12742.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
他將來即使要在任那也必須要有機關首長肯用他那我想每一個機關首長將來要禁用這樣的公務人員他自己要多加的考量因為這個會牽涉到社會輿論的觀瞻那大家對這個事情的看法雖然久了也許會比較淡忘但是用他的機關那個必須要有很大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12743.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12759.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
的勇氣,否則那個將來也是全民注目的一件事件好,那我再好,謝謝時間到,不好意思啊,林委員好,謝謝林益君委員的資訊也謝謝呂秋慧女士的備詢對,對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12771.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12787.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
跟全院委員會報告我們上午會議的進行到此為止對不起我們更正一下接下來登記第二位王定宇委員之詢以書面提出列入記錄刊登公報報告全院委員會我們上午會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行委員的詢問現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
13325.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
13326.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
MING PAO CANADA MANGA |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
21591.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
21596.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
報告全院委員會 我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請徐巧欣委員請質詢謝謝院長 我們請呂宇準考試委員請 您也是請備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
21626.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
21651.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
許委員你好你好呃呂秋慧被提名人喔您身為這個考試院考試委員的被提名人在這裡呢有幾個問題想要跟您請教那因為您之前有擔任過常務次長為了方便稱呼待會呢我還是用呂長賜來對您做這個稱呼那首先呢我比較關心的是這個霸凌申訴機制的改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
21651.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
21671.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
首先呢因為最近勞動部有發生一起這個因為上級那對於下屬的管理不當那導致於呢這個無性公務人員用了極端方式離開人事的這個案例那所以呢也引發了非常多的公務人員那像我們投訴說這段時間他們的經歷 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
21674.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
21688.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
所以也就是勞動部所發生的霸凌案件它並不是一個單一的案例而是在整個政府公務部門裡面都有這樣的這個情況從勞動部、教育部、外交部、訴發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
21689.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
21717.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
野火燎原越來越多的公務人員站出來反抗希望表達他們的聲音甚至有的是舊案他們希望能夠被重啟調查有的是現在才敢講那首先我們先列出我們所接到的公部門的霸凌案有的已經公布質詢或是有新聞披露了有的還沒有您可以看一下這個我們現在的這個PowerPoint上面的 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
21718.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
21738.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
那我標黃色起來的部分呢是我們已經接到檢舉那也已經有篩選過蠻確定說可能有霸凌的這個相關問題包含退府會裡面某一名的徐姓女科長那她是公開對多位的同仁進行侮辱性的言語攻擊跟惡意排擠 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
21740.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
21753.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
104到113年已經有五個人申請調往其他的科室三個人調往其他部會兩人辭職兩人留職提薪而且很多人提出申訴卻不了了之 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
21754.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
21777.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
外交部歐洲司的部分我已經質詢過再來教育部的法治署這個也是新案它的處長同仁因為難忍該處環境 勇於商調至其他機關因為多事頻調所以就被拒絕商調很多同仁必須另外尋求幫忙才能調理在教育部是眾所皆知的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
21778.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
21793.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
還有同仁因為商調案件被綁．只能辭職再找機關．調到其他機關服務．這個長官卻對他施壓．要求將辭呈抽回．這個在該部都是有公文能夠去查到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
21795.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
21809.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
情緒控管不佳在開宿院會議的時候無視會議應該是共識絕並且讓宿院方有答辯充分陳述的機會披頭痛罵答辯方代表造成與會的其餘委員全數噤聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
21811.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
21826.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
不屬及相關的業務單位．對於法制處所提的意見．有不認同的時候．都會被叫去接受處長的訓斥教育部不用打卡．因為你打真卡．這個處長告訴你說不能報加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
21827.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
21849.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
那另外有一個教育部國教署我已經公開講了海科會的部分也已經在調查了公研院這也是一個新案包含他們的經理組長跟副組長在疫情期間的居家辦公竟然受到刁難那主管的冷暴率導致公務同仁需要看身心科所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
21850.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
21878.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這都不包括我在外交部還質詢的另外三個案子所以您看到的是光是我這裡我只是其中113位委員的其中一員我們所收到在整個公務體系裡面的稱情幾乎是跨部會的所以我想要問就是說您應該很理解為什麼公務人員他們受到霸凌的時候沒有辦法像私部門這樣子就我兩手一攤我辭職我去下一個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
21879.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
21898.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
因為私部門他們是勞保所以我今天辭了職我到其他的單位再上班的時候我依然能夠繼續我的勞保可是公務人員他們是好不容易考高普考考上的他們就是希望能夠借滿然後呢退休之後有一份好的保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
21898.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
21916.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
所以他們幾乎都是忍辱負重頂多是調職那非常難以有這個辭職的情況所以每一次被霸凌的時候都是敢怒不敢言一直到了這一次有極端事件的發生他們才敢勇於的稍稍的告訴我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
21916.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
21943.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
原來公務體系裡面存在這樣子嚴重的霸凌事件所以第一個問題想要問您的就是呂強次請問從考試委員的這樣子的一個觀點您覺得我們有什麼樣的辦法能夠修正相關的制度讓這種所謂的公家單位裡面的霸凌行為能夠被遏止或者是說相關的申訴管道真的能夠發揮效用 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
21946.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
21972.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
是 謝謝委員的提問我想這一次的霸凌事件是全國矚目大家都非常的痛心一位優秀的公務人員這樣子就喪失了他的寶貴生命那也藉由這個事件會讓我們檢視到公部門對於職場霸凌這個議題確實應該要加強法制或者是各方面的宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
21973.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
22001.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
那在考試院主管的法規裡頭我想我們上次這個院長被提名人周前副院長他也有承諾我們回去會儘快的修正公務人員保障法在下個會期會送到大院來審查另外這個公務人員的安全及衛生防護辦法也應該要加強它的規範密度跟它的一個內涵 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
22002.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
22021.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
讓我們在法治上做得不夠、不足的地方：能夠盡快的加強來補足那另外我覺得我們過去其實在權敘部針對霸凌事件其實在兩三年前我們考機法的修正草案裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
22023.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
22037.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
就已經有把這個曾對他人霸凌造成身心的一個不法侵害的話情節嚴重可以分別打丙等丁等那在一次計兩大過的這個條件裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
22040.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
22067.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
也對於這個對他人的這個霸凌造成不法侵害以至於他身心創傷或者死亡可以直接一次計兩大過這個是我們現在在考機法是還不夠完備的地方那其實我們的草案裡頭都已經有把他這個條文都加進去只是這個草案因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
22068.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
22088.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
考機法修正的範圍太多那有一些的爭議沒有辦法達成共識所以一直還沒有送到大院來但是在前幾天司法法治委員會的這個審查考試院所屬的預算的過程當中我們現在的權序部施部長也有承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
22089.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
22109.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
會把公務人員考機法．有關霸凌的這些相關條文．會把公務人員考機法．有關霸凌的這些相關條文．我們會儘速送到大院來審議．我們會儘速送到大院來審議．我想透過法治的加強．至少會讓我們對所有公務人員遭受霸凌的部分．至少會讓我們對所有公務人員遭受霸凌的部分．有一個比較完整的保護．有一個比較完整的保護． |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
22111.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
22129.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
申訴在申訴的這個機制也許很多的公務人員並不是非常了解它的機制我想將來我們在保訓會就這個部分應該要加強宣導我認為申訴是受理機關是服務機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
22130.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
22151.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那服務機關有的時候難免會有大家批評的會不會有關關相護的問題這就是一個很大的問題嘛因為呢這些目前被申訴的霸凌加害者那其實他本身照理來說是有許多救濟管道的像是你可以宿院啊行政救濟啊然後呢這些流程都被批評是關關相護甚至是時間冗長 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
22154.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
22179.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
有時候最後結果確定下來﹐霸凌者他已經退休或是離開單位﹐也沒有辦法做什麼懲處﹐例如這次勞動部的謝宜榮分署長﹐他也沒有參加這個考機會﹐是否他後續﹐他可以再對這個考機會的懲處﹐進行申訴或是複審﹐甚至做行政訴訟的部分﹐最後他還是能夠拿到他公務人員﹐屬位他個人認為他應得的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
22183.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
22208.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
我先把我剛剛的說完整申訴的部分是服務機關受理所以我覺得各機關的申訴小組應該都要加入外部委員比如說有法律專家有心理學的專家那這個外部委員呢因為他是來自外界所以呢他比較能夠公平的來看待這個申訴事件那至於謝怡榮分署長的這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
22210.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
22229.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
因為勞動部是把他一次計兩大過那他不是走申訴的路線他是可以提副審那提副審的受理機關是公務人員保障及培訓委員會所以他可以依照保障法在行任處分決定之後30天之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
22230.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
22250.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
他向保訓會提起副審的救濟那副審如果他不服務他可以再走到行政訴訟因為一次計兩大過免職是改變公務人員的身份所以他有他合法的救濟管道但是救濟的結果怎麼樣那就看各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
22251.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
22267.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
副院長、副院長及考試院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
22274.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
22299.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好了解那我第二個問題呢要來問的是跟您探討年金改革的部分喔因為呢我們談到事任的公務人員保障也是呢要討論到退休輔續保障的部分那其實在年金改革之後呢我們有一個條款基本上我們每五年是要重新來檢討一次嘛那到現在也差不多到了該檢討的時候所以呢我們有三個建議喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
22300.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
22326.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
目前在法案上面有到了這個包含很多的立委們都有提案那不少都通過了這個一讀那主要把它分為三個重點第一個重點叫做取消所得替代率每年調降的限制第二個重點叫做CPI成長率達到3%的時候調整月退第三個重點叫做每兩年檢討一次退幅 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
22327.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
22355.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
這部分由於年金改革的檢視期間其實已經就是差不多現在所以在現在討論這個議題我覺得剛好我們在審查這個考試委員我認為是一個非常重要也很關鍵的一個節點所以我想要請問一下長賜您身為考試院的委員被提名人對於年金改革的看法以及剛才我上述提的三個具體的建議您是否認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
22356.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
22385.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
報告委員我們的退服法第92條規定就是年金改革的方案實施之後每5年要檢討一次所以全序部在112年就完成了這個檢討報告那這個檢討報告之前也有送到大院來那我針對剛剛委員的三個議題分別再做一下說明委員剛剛有提到就是CPI如果大於 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
22385.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
22412.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
我們一個一個來第一個是取消所得替代率的每年調降限制我覺得照顧公務人員是政府的責任政府要照顧的公務人員除了退休的公務人員之外還有現在在職場努力的現職人員我們必須讓現職人員安心他將來退休可以領到退休金現在現職人員大概還有29萬多將近30萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
22415.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
22439.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
所以我覺得大前提必須要我們的退伏基金能夠穩健然後能夠永續的發展讓現職人員將來退休不會擔心領不到退休金所以我可不可以換一個問題問您就是說如果現在的退伏基金能夠因應未來我們現職的公務人員未來退休之用 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
22440.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
22463.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
您認為取消所得替代率每年調降限制這個部分您是願意支持的如果有真的委員講的那個方向的話那我覺得這是可以討論好 因為我們可以看到其實我們的政府很有錢啊我們政府花很多的錢在買武器我們政府花很多的錢在做前瞻基礎設計劃我們政府花很多的錢每年在補貼台點 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
22464.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
22488.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
所以如果我們政府能夠再節省一點的話其實我們在整體的退府基金或是我們可以給公務人員的退府的相關的權益上面是一定可以足以保障的那所以說呢我才講在我們的退府人員就限職的公務人員的權益能夠保存的情況之下那是否能夠取消所得替代率的每年調漲這是我剛剛的第一個問題那您認為是說如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
22491.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
22516.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
能夠保障現在的現任的公務人員他的權益不受到影響您能夠同意取消所得替代率的每年調降機制我們必須尊重專業的精算財政專業的精算那這個精算的結果如果財政夠穩健然後可以永續的發展那我覺得這個是我們可以後續再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
22517.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
22540.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那第二個問題叫做﹐CPI成長率﹐拿到3%的時候﹐來調整月退因為我們知道呢﹐為什麼要進行檢討的原因是﹐當時在做年金改革的時候﹐沒有去思考到﹐通貨膨脹會這麼嚴重沒有去思考到﹐我們的物價上漲﹐會這麼嚴重所以呢﹐我們現在的公務人員﹐他其實所領到的月退﹐那其實他是被壓縮的 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
22542.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
22564.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
所以當時我們所設定的這個年金改革沒有考慮進這麼大的通膨跟這麼高的物價的情況之下雖然他們乍看之下領的錢是一樣的但是實際上面是再一次的再被壓縮的所以我想要請教第二個問題是CPI成長率達到3%的時候調整月退這一點請問您是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
22565.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
22585.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
報告委員我們退服法的第67條它有規定就是每4年或者CPI大於5的時候那是應該要啟動這個調整的機制當時之所以定5的原因是因為我們現在的年金有兩層的保障第一層是社會保險 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
22585.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
22602.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
的年金制度那這個社會保險的這個部分是最基礎的維持大家生活基本所需的那我們現在的社會保險部分包括公保、勞保、國民年金的部分他要調整所定的數值都是5% |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
22603.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
22629.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
對所以我們希望說呢都調整為3%因為現在的我們的包含是退休人員其實他們的日子算是說呢因為你整體的年金改革之後呢那大家的月退縫其實都變少了那這些公務人員那他的生活條件那也被限縮了那當CPI成長率不斷在提高的時候本來所規定的5%是不是我們覺得太高了能夠降低到3%我的問題是這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
22631.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
22649.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
所以我當然知道本來是5%啊所以我才問你說是否可以調整到3%啊因為這個牽涉到我剛剛講的所有的社會保險的年金現在大家公保、勞保都是定5那如果說所有的全部調整到3%的話您是同意的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
22650.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
22665.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
這個尊重大院的權責將來也是要你們來修再來第三個問題是每兩年檢討一次退伏基金這個部分我們現在退伏法92條的規定是五年檢討一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
22665.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
22668.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
若改成兩年檢討：退府基金的檢討關係到整個財務的狀況：專業精算非常重要：每三年精算一次：以五十年為一期 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
22684.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
22686.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
若檢討改成兩年,檢討時間比精算時間更短,有沒有辦法兼顧到財務方面的問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
22700.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
22715.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
了解了那第三個問題呢我是要來詢問關於我們人才招募機制的調整我們都知道現在我們有越來越多不同的考科那我們的這個公務人員的工作跟以往的傳統公務人員的工作也有所不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
22716.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
22741.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我舉一個例子來說像我自己在國防外交委員會那我們現在最重要的其中一個項目呢是招考這個所謂的資安人員像我們在國安局要招考資安人員的時候呢那照理來說我們要著重他的專業是他對於資安的瞭解可是我們在整體的考試的時候國安局的考試還是要要求他的體數比如說跑3000公尺的速度 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
22741.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
22758.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
譬如說他的仰臥體做或俯臥撐譬如說還包含是他的體能訓練、山地戰技、操舟訓練、繩索攀降、水中求生、游泳射擊那這個東西跟資安的工作一點關聯性都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
22758.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
22776.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
所以在我們有很多新興的工作出現之後那我們應該是要著重他的專業那當他的專業跟這個數科沒有關聯性的時候那是不是我們在考科上面是需要做一些調整跟異動的我就舉資安這個例子來說就非常的清楚了因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
22776.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
22796.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
如果今天我們有一個假設我們今天我舉個例子我們有一個身障的朋友他對於資安是有非常深刻的了解他也願意從事我們的公職但他卻沒有辦法參與國安局的招考來成為我們的資安人員因為他體能上面沒有辦法通過我們這些數科考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
22797.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
22816.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
那對國家來說不是喪失了一個很重要的人才對我們的國家安全來說也損失了一個很重要的人才嗎所以想要請問這個被提名人就是說在這方面新興考科的部分我們有沒有可能全面去審視現在的考科是否我們的考試內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
22817.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
22830.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
有符合這些考試考了以後他們選訓用嗎我們選訓有沒有符合他最後要用的這個標準能不能夠重新的檢視所有我們公務體系裡面的內容可以在私下了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
22849.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
22868.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
謝謝許巧欣委員的質詢謝謝呂秋慧被提名人次長您的詢答謝謝請坐接下來登記第四位羅美玲委員質詢為以書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報再接下來請登記第五位林思明委員請質詢好謝謝院長院長我們請呂被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
22879.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
22880.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
麻煩再請李佩琴備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
22888.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
22910.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
林委員你好李貝提名議員你好我想您這個經驗豐富在全序部已經繼承到常務次長有很完整的歷練當然你也負責很重要法案的草擬以及修正的工作我看你的專長就是在公務人員的申簽法以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
22910.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
22934.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
奉及提續認定辦法這兩個法案的制定以及修正你貢獻很多的一個心力所以我想請問在這些法案的推動當時是否有徹底的解決我們當時所面臨的問題以及還有當時所遇到的相關我們公務機關的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
22936.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
22957.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
這是第一個問題了第二個問題就是說在推動的過程中您遇到的最大的困難是什麼有沒有您能夠列舉出的幾個案例可以跟我們來分享那您是如何克服當您遇到這些挑戰的時候您是如何克服 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
22958.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
22967.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那未來如果您擔任考試委員你是否有計劃進一步的優化這些制度請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
22969.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
22988.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
謝謝委員提問首先我先說明一下升遷法跟諷刑提敘制度是我很年輕的時候參與的法案大概都在科長的那個階段升遷法早期因為沒有法制化升遷的時候都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
22990.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
23009.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
內部的一些行政規則或者是相關的規定那當時我們全序部官部長到任的時候他發現這個升遷沒有法制化所以就要求主管單位趕快去定定制定這個升遷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
23010.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
23031.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那所以那個時候我是科長的職務那這個升遷法的制定是歷經了五年的時間才完成草案委員剛提到這個過程當中有沒有什麼困難我想當時最大的困難就是升遷法會讓很多的機關認為這個好像是妨礙了首長的用人權 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
23032.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
23060.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
因為本來沒有法制化之前首長用人比較方便那有了升遷法的法制規範之後那當然在用人部分要遵守法制的規定所以一開始我們在制定這個法的過程當中必須花一些時間跟機關首長來溝通然後讓他能夠支持所以還好所幸5年後這個法民國89年在立法院完成了法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
23061.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
23076.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
封籍提敘的部分比較沒有碰到一些困難最主要是早期公務人員封籍提敘我們都是散件在各個行政的規定裡面靠全序部的解釋或者是一些行政規則 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
23077.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
23100.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我們希望整個公務人員奉集提敘承認年資的提敘是關係公務人員權益非常重大因此部裡面組成一個專案小組當時是由我擔任召集人然後我們研擬完成了一個研究報告之後經過法治程序把它法治化讓現在所有公務人員有任何承認年資 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
23100.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
23123.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
符合提敘規定的時候有一個法的規範那這個法的研擬過程當中比較沒有碰到困難好 謝謝我想您這麼詳細的一個說明我們也知道說確實被提名人對於我們工人員的升遷以及過去諷刑的提敘您貢獻非常多的一個心力 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
23124.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
23133.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
那這個接下來才想請問就是剛才喬興委員非常關心的有關於我們這個公務人員退休之前府系法第67條的相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
23135.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
23162.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
我想我們工人員退休後：不管是他的退休的月退休金：或者遺族所領的這些月付息金：或者遺族的年金給付的金額：剛才提到會因為我們消費者的物價指數的上漲：的成長：那我們是要達到13%還是5%：您剛才意見是5%是不是是公保、勞保現在都是5%才會去做相關的一個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
23165.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
23180.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
調整比例是由考試院匯同行政院來定之而不是說立法院現在的法律不是說立法院可以隨時來做調整當時是要由考試院匯同行政院來決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
23181.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
23191.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
那我們國家我國預估到2025年的時候以後這個明年的年底65歲的人口的比例將達到20.8%將會進入超高齡的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
23196.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
23218.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
也就是說我們的公務人員退休後的生活他的經濟影響的因素除了說我們剛才一直強調的物價的這個通膨這個通貨膨脹的因素以外我們最近發覺到一個很重要的點就是我們老年退休後他的醫療以及長照的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
23219.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
23227.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
也會隨之而增加他的身心健康的保障我想是政府一直在強調的所以這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
23229.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
23255.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
因為醫療的生活的主要支出也會隨之增加如果僅考量消費者的物價指數的成長率作為調整的一個依據而沒有去考量到說我們的年長者因為要看醫、要看病的醫療費的龐大的支出如果沒有考慮這個只有考慮到物價指數的調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
23257.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
23278.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
被提名的人你認為這樣妥當嗎這個是可以考量是可以考量的所以為了您擔任考試委員您會在這個委員會或者重要的會議裡面去提出您的相關的這部分的看法嗎看我們到時候的一個提案是什麼狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
23281.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
23303.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
是當然是看你家什麼重要的會議但是我想這個我該提問這個問題就是期許希望說未來您擔任考試委員要把這個指標因素也要把這個納入作為我們未來我們讓我們的退休金能夠調漲的一個重要的因素我們不能只看物價調漲的指數可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
23304.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
23315.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
委員是指說除了物價的上漲指數以外就是我們的他的未來就醫的費用這一部分的確考量進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
23315.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
23327.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
的確人當然年紀越長他需要醫療的照顧就會越多所以我們現在目前對於這個67條條長的部分是設定在5%那這個剛剛我跟徐委員也有報告過那因為我們最基礎的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
23338.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
23342.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
Iwan Nawi、Iwan Nawi、Iwan Nawi、Iwan Nawi |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
23359.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
23380.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
那所以呢我們當時才會定5%可是呢也考慮到說那如果物價指數沒有到5%的時候那退休公務人員物價是有波漲所以我們當時在機制上才會又多了一個選項就是每4年這個是大於5%正負5%或者是每4年調漲一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
23386.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
23410.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
就像我們111年7月的那一次調漲那個時候物價指數的波動是1.9%大概1.9%那也還不到5%可是呢就我們因為在107年7月實施年金改革到111年的7月已經達4年了所以那個時候我們幫退休工人調了2% |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
23411.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
23437.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
那這個就是說有考慮到說物價指數雖然沒有到5%可是它的確是波動影響退休人員的生計所以才會再多一個選項每四年雖然不到5%但是也可以調整我的意思是說除了當然每四年調整一次去做一個考量但是也要考量把這個我們現在因為人的身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
23438.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
23466.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
身體的健康因素大家現在都非常重視所以我們對於長照醫療照護這一部分未來會增加很多的支出所以未來這個點也要把它納進去才能夠全面保障我們退休公務人員的一個生活所以我想您未來可以在這個考試院做這方面的建議另外我們要再談到所謂的所得替代率的問題是否應該要有所調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
23467.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
23480.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我想我們現在星期四本院對於公務人員退休的條例要做一個審查那我們的修法的精神當然是到113年我們認為說不應該再繼續地檢下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
23485.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
23496.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
所以是否要將在113年12月31日退休後的公務人員他的退休所得替代率就減到70%就停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
23500.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
23526.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
所以我們一直強調就是說雖然剛才您一直提到說精算精算精算但是我們現在在這個整個實際上我們在整個基層我們在跑我們在這樣跑活動或者去了解深入的了解我們了解公務人員他們現在基本生活的保障如果我再繼續往下砍的話對他們來講隨著物價指數的調漲以及醫療的一個增加支出他們很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
23527.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
23545.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
所以如果把它遞減到70%這是大家普遍認為還可以接受的一個狀況所以我想我們有時候不用去講什麼精算講一大堆的長篇大道理實際去了解工人員的心聲 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
23547.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
23567.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我覺得政府應該要做這樣的事所以如果說我剛才提到如果說在113年以後退休的工作人員他的所得替代率就到70%被提名的人你同意嗎我剛剛有特別為什麼一直強調精算最主要是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
23570.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
23585.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
我一開始有提到照顧公務人員是政府的責任但是呢我們有兩種人要照顧那現在還在在職的這些公務人員的權益我們也必須幫他考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
23586.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
23612.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
所以財務要穩健就是要退休的人生活有保障可是現職人員的權益也要顧慮到我覺得在公務人員裡面不同年齡世代的人其實想法會有一些落差我們在照顧的同時應該是要兩邊都要考量到 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
23612.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
23638.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
那我自己在全序部服務這麼多年我也看到我歷任的部長甚至於院長都對這個退府基金的這個財務費了非常多的心思那所以基本上如果真的財務可以比較健全的話那我覺得陸續要怎麼處理才有條件來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
23639.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
23648.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
是那個被提名的人其實齁那我想你還是沒回答到我的重點我一直問雖然精算的這個問題我的意思是說可以先把它拋在腦後 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
23650.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
23679.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
就到底政府有沒有能力去解決這個退府基金他的這個財務漏洞的問題我想政府其實有很多的這個財源可以去彌補這一塊只是政府一直遮遮掩掩的不願對我們公務人員做更多的一個照顧我剛一直講說如果達到70%您同意嗎天花板就到70%不要再往下砍了您的看法您同意這樣的一個修法的方向嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
23681.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
23708.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
委員我們現在107年實施到現在已經6年了那這個其實他們要砍10年嘛對對對那他們所得替代率現在已經67.5了所以我們現在把他修回來嘛到大概七成左右嘛你同意嗎你回答我你同意嗎就好了好不好這個方向你說這個方向的修法你同意嗎這個看法你覺得正確還不正確 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
23711.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
23715.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
這個影響層面會很大是對所以你不敢具體的給我回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
23716.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
23741.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
我為什麼一直在說要尊重專業的精算是因為我們第8次精算的結果告訴我們說因為我們現在本來年金改革是所定在一個世代30年的財務穩健的前提但是因為我們112年7月實施對於出任人員實施了這個個人專戶制之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
23744.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
23763.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
讓這個基金的30年又提前了5年提前了5年那所以就是如果沒有維持一個世代30年的穩健那其實對縣職人來講他們都會憂心都會憂心那我們的第9次精算也快出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
23764.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
23784.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
所以我覺得看一下我們在112年因為現在112年實施個人專戶制的新進人員目前大概一萬多將近一萬二然後但是隨著年限他這個人會越來越多那等於說退府基金他也沒有活水在注入 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
23785.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
23813.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
那因此我們會比較憂心這個問題那這個我覺得任何的改變都要審慎評估這個是我剛剛一直強調精算的原因這問題你的態度我大概知道了來我再問你就是我想你的專業在人事法治與救濟保障剛才巧訊委員提到這一次勞動部的霸凌事件我們看到工人員的考他現在勞動部是一個工人員考積法給他計兩大過免職 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
23815.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
23823.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
那依據您的專業對考試法的瞭解現在勞動部用計兩大過給他免職處分這個程序有沒有瑕疵 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
23826.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
23848.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
兩大過我們在考機法裡面對於公務人員一次計兩大過他有一個很完整的規範那勞動部在他在勞發署在召開考機會的過程當中有沒有完全進行考機法的程序我不是很清楚因為我就像我早上說我都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
23849.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
23869.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
靠媒體報導在瞭解他的狀況所以我覺得那個要看他實際召開考機會的時候有沒有依照現行考機法法制的規定來執行所以到目前您也看不出來勞動部是用考機法的哪一個條款來對他作出計量到過的免費 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
23870.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
23892.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
我沒有看到他的相關文件所以我不知道好 這樣我問你就是說依照你對考機法的瞭解因為我們現在總共是12條裡面第3項總共有8個樣態那你認為這一次的這個謝毅榮分署長這個霸凌事件是屬於其中的哪一個8個條款裡面的哪一個樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
23893.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
23907.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
我們前幾天在司法法制委員會審查預算的過程當中我們權虛部的施部長有定調說他是符合第五款嚴刑不檢然後讓政府信譽遭受這個損害 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
23908.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
23933.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
的條款 勞動部真正用哪一款我是不曉得的確在我們現在考機法制上就霸凌的部分的確法制現在還沒有正式入法但我剛剛徐委員在質詢的時候我有提到我們的考機法修正草案其實把霸凌的部分都列入 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
23933.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
23947.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
相當平等、丁等、一次計兩大過都有很明確的試用條款我想我們完成這個法治化之後在各個公務機關試用的部分會更清楚、會更明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
23948.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
23966.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
所以未來您如果順利的擔任考試委員在相關的修法建議裡面你就會建議說把它納入我們的考試法裡面把霸凌、杏燒、酒駕還有那個毒駕都把它納入我們考試法裡面的計量到過免疫的樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
23969.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
23979.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
所以現在目前這樣的規定好像就是說未來是不是這個謝宜榮分署長如果他提出行政救濟的話有可能翻案有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
23980.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
24004.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
這個要尊重法院的判決那但是如果他最後是有確定的話那我們勞動部就要把這個勞發署必須把相關的免職案送到權需部來去審定那那個法院最後他有救濟的話法院最後定驗了那我就是他確定免職的日期要看法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
24004.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
24022.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
那當然因為就是說勞動部這一次的做出來的行政處分就是到底具體如何的做出兩大過免之處分到目前我想連這個您這麼專業的的考試未來擔任考試院的委員的人都不了解可見真的是很草率 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
24023.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
24041.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
那最後一個問題就是有關於我們公務人員高補考的問題因為高補考我們現在看到人數在2013年還有14萬人到了2022年只剩下7萬多人腰斬到了去年又只剩下3萬多人又腰斬 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
24042.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
24068.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
所以這個數字顯示說為什麼我們的高普考的報考率會那麼低但是我們在去年我們考試院9月宣布高普考增額錄取了1920人所以我們是有用人的需求但是我們報考的人數卻一直下降請問成因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
24070.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
24091.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
報告委員這個報考人數的下降其實有蠻多原因的包括我們現在的確面臨少子化的國安問題所以這個像我們現在大學一間一間的關那所以這個第一個是主要的問題所在那第二個呢我覺得這個報考 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
24110.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
24130.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
好 謝謝林士平委員質詢 也謝謝我們呂秋慧次長 背題名人 您的答詢 謝謝您接下來登記第6位陳冠廷委員質詢 詢問以書面提出 我們列入記錄 刊登公報再接下來我們請登記第7位張志倫委員請質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
24144.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
24160.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
好 謝謝韓院長我們各位委員各位我們的這個在場各位好朋友我們請我們這個呂秋慧考試委員被提名人麻煩再請呂秋慧次長請備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
24169.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
24191.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
張委員你好好 非常感謝我們這個呂秋慧這個考試委員被提名人那我本席稍微看一下你的簡歷你從民國73年就已經進入程序部從科員當到這個常務次長那今年在1月解退幾乎您都有這個一輩子都奉獻給程序部、給國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
24192.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
24217.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
所以在此本席先感謝你的全心的付出那等一下也要借用你長期以來的專業向你請教一下問題首先要跟你請教的是請教這個我們被提名的人大家都很關心的這個勞動部這個前北分署長謝宜榮的這個霸凌案那我們都知道這個霸凌的事情這個自古以來一直存在上司跟下屬這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
24219.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
24219.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
24237.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
24260.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
大翻轉下午就哭哭啼啼以及請辭那卓榮泰院長也下令說對於全部的公務人員的霸凌事件必須要求一週內清查完畢那我想說這是非常讓人痛心的一件事情因為這是一個國家的公務員用親身換來職場霸凌防治的改革的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
24261.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
24281.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那我想要請教我們的被提名人其實在這件事情發生之前其實有一些警示比如說在這個北分署他一年內有80多個人吊離職在一個200多人的公務機關有80多個人吊離職以及有許多的陳情案給民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
24282.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
24302.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那都可能都有疑似被施暗的一個問題所以本席要先請教我們的這個呂備提名人您在公務系統已經有40多年的經驗請問您本身有沒有被霸凌的情形還是你身邊有沒有一些公務人員有被霸凌的一些狀況你所知悉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
24304.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
24325.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
報告委員我覺得全序部相對是一個組織文化非常好的機關這是為什麼我可以在那邊一待42年的原因我自己不管是當承辦人或是當主管基本上在全序部我們比較沒有這種事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
24326.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
24351.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
好,謝謝,謝謝被提名人那所以全序部是一個良善的地方那第二個我要請教剛剛有特別提到有這麼多的這個警示其實可以提早來處理而不是說很多公務單位遇到這些警示都沒有通報或甚至被刺案的情況那我請問針對這樣的事情我想請教被提名人有沒有未來來防止的一個方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
24352.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
24370.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
的確我覺得霸凌因為現在一個無性公務人員的頑固讓我們大家整個社會國家社會去面臨這個正式這個問題但是我覺得防治比事後處理來得更重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
24372.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
24394.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
除了法制上從公務人員保障法還有公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法公務人員考機法這些都要加強整建這些法制之外那我覺得我自己看到很多的主管他有的時候他是不曉得怎麼當主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
24395.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
24418.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
因此我覺得事前的防治可以在各機關加強教育訓練讓這些尤其是出任主管的人因為主管所承擔的責任比較重有時候為了達到機關組織目標的達成比較工作取向的人可能他就再加上有的個性比較急 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
24419.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
24441.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
不曉得怎麼樣去帶領同仁的時候就會發生這種讓人家覺得很不舒服的霸凌所以我覺得訓練很重要事前的教育跟訓練及後續的追蹤考車加上未來法令的這個加嚴那就拜託我們這個被平民人未來當考試委員一起來努力這一個部分那第二個我要請教也是針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
24443.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
24470.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
謝宜榮這個案子其實當時有成立一個調查委員會可是舊新聞媒體跟很多委員的諮詢也提出這個調查委員調查小組的成員有問題就調查成員的召集人疑似跟這個謝宜榮是好朋友那調查報告裡面的內容也荒腔走板不僅提出這樣子的霸凌這樣子不當管教是利益良善那也提出說這個霸凌雖然有霸凌的事實可是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
24473.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
24493.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
謝毅榮對親生的公務人員沒有直接關係就讓大眾而嘩然那我是不是可以請教像這樣的調查委員會其實事實上是失去調查小組是失去它的功能那未來您當考試委員對這樣子的關關相互的做法有沒有一些檢討的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
24495.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
24521.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
我覺得現在各機關在對霸凌的部分成立這個所謂的調查小組可能還要提升一下它的位階讓它變成一個調查的委員會然後要納入多一點的外部機制的委員那由外面的這些專家參與這個調查委員會的這個調查那盡量去維持它比較公平公平合理的一個結果出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
24523.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
24544.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
好 謝謝就是說第一個這調查小組要增加更多的外部調查的專業人士而且調升等級而且要做事先的防堵因為這個調查小組出來的報告這個結果可以說是對被害人來講一錘定焉他更是申訴無門所以我非常認同您的看法那第三個我要請教就是針對這個勞動部現在這個霸淫的事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
24547.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
24572.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
未來我們所有大眾的公務人員要如何來自處因為我們瞭解第一個就是關於這個未來很多公務人員超時加班的問題或是之後在就這件事情在週末的時候接到LINELINE的訊息10分鐘沒有回然後你下禮拜一上班就被檢討這樣子的問題那尤其最近我們新任的勞動部長也帶頭提油救火 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
24573.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
24593.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
要求各單位六日都要來跟勞動部長來做一個報告而且還下令封口說這東西不能對外說所以我擔心這樣子一直不斷不斷的這樣子的一個不良的示範是不是會讓整個我們所有的公務機關覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
24596.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
24605.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
針對未來霸凌的對象是很大的關注尤其如果霸凌的對象是部長那未來我們所有公務人員有沒有一個什麼樣的機制可以來防範 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
24606.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
24621.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
我們對於霸凌的對象如果是首長的話那他其實是可以跟他的上級機關來提出來至於剛剛委員提到超時加班的問題我們其實在112 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
24627.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
24640.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
111年的公務員服務法修正之後：為了保障所有公務人員的健康權：我們有規定公務人員的加班：加上上班時間不得超過60小時 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
24642.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
24664.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
那除非你有特殊的專案或緊急事故需要應變那各主管院訂出來的大概也都是80小時所以如果有超過這個時數那這個是明顯違反服務法的相關規定那我覺得我們現在在各機關應該要多建立保訓會也應該多宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
24665.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
24681.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
所有副審也好、申訴制度也好他的管道要盡量讓他暢通公務員真的遭受一些不法的對待的時候那他才會有一個救濟的管道能夠把他的所受的委屈能夠傳遞出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
24683.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
24705.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好 非常感謝好 那接下來我要請教的是說剛剛提到的就是內部公務人員對公務人員的霸凌的一些情況上級對下級霸凌的一些情況那我們講一些有關於外部的例子在2018年9月那時候有一個牆台叫燕子重創日本關係有一位女性網友率網軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
24707.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
24729.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
當時稱讚駐日代表謝長廷因為當時就是因為有關係有很多的這個淹水造成很多旅客沒有辦法離開關西機場後來有大陸的這個客車把這些人都帶走就覺得說我們好像駐日代表這邊沒有很好的處置結果想不到這個陽性網友 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
24731.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
24737.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
楊姓女網友率領網軍稱讚朱日代表卻羞辱大阪辦事處的蘇啟臣處長後來悲憤傾聲這件事情很多人都已經忘記了後來針對楊姓女網友其實當時有去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
24755.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
24775.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
一些訴訟一審其實是判六個月可是後來高等法院的時候判的是只有五個月只有五個月可以一顆罰金可是後來這個楊姓女網友有做上訴結果憲法法庭就是我們現在大家吵得最兇的大法官在判決中認為侮辱公務員應屬於對公務員當場羞辱意思就是說這個楊姓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
24781.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
24804.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
這個網友他沒有主動當面的去羞辱我們這位公務員他是請網軍用請車椅間接的羞辱公務員所以後來判刑是判說侮辱其罪務就是判說有侮辱公務員的職務罪是違憲所以現在已經發回重新來審那我想要請教我們這個被提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
24805.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
24830.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
這樣子大法官所判出來的這個違憲就是說沒有直接去羞辱公務人員可是可以用側翼用網軍去羞辱公務人員來去做判決一個違憲我覺得對公務人員而言是一個非常嚴重的打擊那我想要請教您的看法針對大法官所做出來的釋憲基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
24832.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
24855.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
我們是尊重但是其實公務人員在執行公務的過程當中我看到的絕大多數的公務員都是非常認真、非常努力的所以我覺得在工作職場上也應該要獲得他們應有的尊敬與尊榮那這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
24857.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
24869.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
當然這個不幸事件發生我們都覺得很遺憾但是也希望我們將來的工作職場是能夠越來越友善不要再發生類似的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
24871.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
24898.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
好 謝謝那接下來我來請教我們被提名今天很多委員有請教您有關於這個年金改革的議題那我針對這個很多退休的公務人員我想他們心裡最大的傷痛就是當時在年金改革的時候政府有一些官員大罵這個退休的公務人員以及所有的公務人員是米蟲還有當時民進黨的委員也說你們越包圍越抗議年金就砍得越多 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
24898.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
24917.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
那現在結果論而言的確讓他們很多的這個退休的公務人員他們的生活非常的困難那大家都說當時他們願意考公務人員的原因雖然薪資比較低可是他們認為都是鐵飯碗政府也有承諾說要保障公務人員的一些信賴保護原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
24918.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
24947.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
那本席常常有時候有機會常會為一些公務人員發聲我常講一句話公務人服務保護國家跟人民誰來保護公務人員所以針對這公務人員的年金部分當時第一件事所得替代率大砍15%以及每年還要再砍另外的15%每年砍1.5%的部分其實當時很多委員都特別提到他忽略了 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
24948.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
24955.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
很多的這個這個澎澎的一些的影響造成很多公務人員他們現在身心靈壓力都很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
24956.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
24984.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
那我想要請教一下政府是不是應該還給公務人員公道從今年開始起重新來檢討這個我們所有公務人員的年金問題以及就過去不公不義的這個所得替代率的這個大砍跟每年這個所得替代率的下降以及很多委員有請教你的就是沒有依照這個通貨膨脹率固定來去做調整是不是可以請您檢答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
24986.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
25011.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
我們其實當時在年金改革的時候有注意到就是針對退休公務人員的這個因應這個通膨的結果會讓他的收入就是物價因為漲太高所以他的退休金就變得好像不夠之用的問題所以當時在67條我們就有訂說通膨CPI如果大於正負的 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
25011.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
25012.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
25030.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
25036.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
提名周弘憲為考試院第十三屆院長：第11屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長．許舒翔為考試院第十四屆院長． |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
25046.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
25070.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
的調降繼續調降我剛剛也有提到就是照顧公務人員是政府的責任可是我們要照顧的是兩方的人馬一個是退休的公務人員那也要照顧現職的公務人員所以在財務穩健能夠永續發展的前提之下那我覺得這個議題才有比較能夠調整的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
25071.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
25093.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
如果我們精算的結果還是沒有辦法維持一個世代30年的這個財務穩健的話那我覺得這個要審慎評估好 謝謝那當然很多委員也特別跟您說明就是說我們政府最近很有錢所以從這個每年超收稅收的部分來看111年超收5000多億那112年超收3800多億那以及今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
25099.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
25124.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
統計下來超收四千多億這些所以我認為稅務的剩餘部分也可以來當作來考慮撥補我們這個退府基金的一個方式之一給您來做參考那因為時間的問題我要來特別跟您請教兩個現在本席認為非常嚴重的一個問題它這些問題其實是在我們的公務人員退休撫恤法第45條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
25126.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
25152.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
就是說這我認為非常不合理就是當這個公務人員退休以後他的這個另外一半是非公務人員比如說我們常常見到的警察他在退休的時候他的另外一半是這個家管可是沒有想到他退休以後如果他離開就是這個這個死亡了以後他的另外一半非公務人員的時候只能繼承他的這個退休金的一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
25153.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
25172.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
我本席認為這個非常的不合理因為過去大家長期以來我舉個例子假設是很認真服務的警察常常都是朝九晚五然後很多時間在加班那他可能養了一個家庭結果他在離開了以後結果他的太太 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
25173.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
25201.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
卻只能領他的退休金的一半來扶持這個家裡有時候家裡的小孩還小而且他一直都做教館嘛因為家裡需要說他來全心來服務家裡可是他原本這個爸爸離開了以後這個媽媽只能領退休金的一半造成他可能還需要二度就業等等出現了很多的家庭的問題啊所以我想要請這個這個考試委員提名人未來是不是可以針對這個部分本期會來修法也希望說你可以來重視這個問題可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
25204.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
25223.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
務人員亡故之後他的配偶大概有一定的條件他可以領二分之一啦那這個是實施是由來已久那委員針對這個部分我想將來我有機會進入考試院服務的話那我會把這個問題再帶回去詳細研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
25224.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
25249.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
對 這個問題非常的嚴重還有第二個問題也更讓我覺得這個其實有點違憲的問題就是雙方都是 兩方都是公務人員夫妻都是公務人員可是如果夫妻都退休了以後當有一方離世的時候另外一方居然連他一半的退休金都不能領要兩個公務人員處誰高啊所以我認為這個很明顯可能有處罰婚姻的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
25250.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
25267.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
就是如果我的對象是公務人員的話不是公務人員可以領一半可是如果是公務人員的話他只能兩個的退休金取高的其中之一這樣我覺得有懲罰婚姻的一個狀況而且大家就像我剛剛提到的其實現在他們的退休金 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
25268.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
25290.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
如果一方是公務人員另外一方是家管不是公務人員的就是全心全意照顧家裡的他原本領的退休金就非常少了而且像現在的這個勞退的機制底下他還要被砍一半所以他根本就已經沒有力氣來照顧他自己的家庭而且每年又砍越砍越多越領越少這是第一個剛剛提到第一個問題第二個問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
25292.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
25315.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
夫妻都是公務人員結果一個一方離開了以後離世了以後結果另外一個公務人員留下來那一個居然連他另外一半都不能領所以這兩個部分我認為非常的不合理明明連領一半的機會都沒有了所以是不是請考試委員提名人所以這一部分您是不是也覺得現在這個有點不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
25317.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
25342.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
這個委員剛剛提到的這兩個問題都是屬於復續制度的部分那他其實現在的任何規定他都有他立法的一個當時的一個原意我想我一樣進入將來有機會進入考試院服務委員關切的這兩個問題我們會協同退輔司全序部那邊再來詳細研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
25344.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
25370.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這個要拜託因為我相信這個我相信很多委員都很關心而且關心到我們所有大眾公務人員未來想要繼續捧這個鐵飯碗他的想法那最後還是非常感謝我們呂備提名人辛苦了那在本席也在此感謝我們所有這個第一線服務的公職人員大家都辛苦了那未來我們一定會繼續捍衛大家的權益請大家不要擔心謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
25373.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
25379.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
謝謝張志倫委員的詢問也謝謝被庭名人呂秋慧次長的詢答請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
25382.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
25410.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
報告全院委員會我們對考試委員被提名人呂秋慧次長的尋答部分到此為止我們非常感謝你被提名人秋慧次長的今天的練習答詢那另外因為要換下面一個換組所以我們現在休息五分鐘休息之後我們進行對考試委員被提名人柯麗鈴院長之詢問我們現在休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
25732.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
25746.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
謝謝報告全院委員會現在我們繼續開會進行審查考試委員被提名人柯麗鈴院長之資格以及是否事任的相關事宜我們首先請被提名人柯麗鈴院長請說明報告時間4分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
25760.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
25787.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
主席、各位委員、各位先進大家好我是考試委員被提名人柯麗鈴目前是最高檢察署檢察官代理法務部司法官學院院長在學院服務已經將近三年這次很榮幸陳孟總統提名為第十四屆考試委員得以有機會前來大院接受審查還請多多支持與指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
25789.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
25818.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
我是一個司法實務工作者自由成長在一個基層司法公務員的小康家庭40多年前當我在臺大法律系就讀的時候和很多同學一樣通過司法官特考成為實現正義的司法官一直是我努力的目標畢業當年除了通過司法官特考也僥倖考上教育部公費留學 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
25819.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
25844.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
因而得以到英國倫敦大學繼續進修．大大的開展了我的國際視野．也受到強烈的文化衝擊在完成法學碩士學業之後．我隨即回國進入當時的司法官訓練所．接受一年半的司法官第23期執行訓練．準備擔任司法人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
25847.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
25873.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
從75年12月分發到加一地檢署．開始擔任檢察官．到現在30多年來．一直都在公務部門．也一直在法務部體系內服務．這一次接受部裡的推薦．並且獲得提名．很多我的同事、好友都非常好奇．為什麼我在當了這麼多年的檢察官之後．竟然願意考慮轉換跑道． |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
25875.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
25889.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
接受一個全新的挑戰長久以來我的人生目標其實非常簡單在每個崗位上都期許自己一定要全力以赴盡己所能無愧於心 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
25890.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
25908.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
而回顧三十多年的公務生涯．從基層的一審檢察官開始．先後擔任過主任檢察官、二審檢察官．以及苗栗基隆地檢署的檢察長．此外也很幸運有機會到法務部辦事． |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
25910.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
25920.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
之後也擔任過法務部的主任秘書並且曾經陸續兼任法務部以及其他政府機關不同性質的各種委員會的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
25923.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
25941.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
這些不同職務的歷練與挑戰．讓我在從事檢察官訴罪犯罪的本職之外．也多了參與法制作業、行政救濟程序．規劃推動富有保護等各種檢查行政．司法保護以及機關領導管理等種種的歷練 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
25944.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
25956.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
更帶給我和公司領域不同的機關、機構、團體﹑各界專業人士互動學習的機會幫助我大大地擴展了公務服務的視野與量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
25958.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
25980.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
三年前﹐我奉派來司法官學院擔任院長﹐負責相關法律人員的培訓﹐主要包括司法官﹐遴選檢察官﹐檢察事務官﹐檢察署的書記官﹐關護人﹐法治人員等同時也呈法務部的指示﹐規劃檢察官的一部分在職訓練 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
25982.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
25990.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
這些人員裡面．司法官的訓級長達兩年．學員人數最多．今年進來的這一期．就多達181人 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
25993.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
26020.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
面對每年費盡千辛萬苦才得以通過國考三試進入學院的這些法律青年精英我和學院同仁們都持續致力精進司法官的養成教育希望能夠透過多元與時俱進的培訓規劃提升學院未來從事司法職務的專業能力並激勵學員由衷建立對這份神聖職務的使命感 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
26020.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
26047.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
成為有高度、氣度及溫度的秤職法官或者檢察官在111年1月26日法律專業人員資格及任用條例草案經過三院會賢、送大院審議之後目前雖然因為屆期不續審退回考試院在與行政、司法兩院以及律師界、學界來會商 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
26048.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
26071.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
不過這兩三年來為了及早做好準備我也帶領學院同仁研議相關的配套措施並且利用參加國際性會議、出國考察等國際交流的機會進一步了解外國司法人員的責才跟培訓制度實際的運作經驗希望能夠作為我國將來繼續規劃的參考此外 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
26076.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
26092.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
與法律人相關的公職律師目前已經推動完成修法正式實施這些都促使我常在思考先前所擬定的法律專業人員資格及任用條例草案能不能再做怎麼樣的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
26093.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
26107.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
能不能利用這次退回考試院再研議的機會由教、考、訓、用各方來協力深入探究能夠設計出更理想、更符合我國食物需求的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
26109.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
26122.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
考試院兼負為國舉裁的責任法務部推薦我擔任考試委員部分原理應該也是期待我能夠以在司法界長久服務所累積的多元文官訓練為基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
26124.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
26152.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
歷練為基礎．加上近幾年在司法官學院．擔任院長．所獲得的司法人員考訓經驗．來進一步對目前法律專業人員．考訓用制度的精進．以及將來新制的檢討推動有所奉獻．基於這樣的期待．促使我接下這個重大的挑戰．希望在未來的生涯中．能夠在另外一個公務領域．再為更多人服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
26154.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
26182.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
這幾年來﹐科技水準進步神速﹐大大影響人類生活形態﹐網路的發展﹐帶來資訊的即時大量流通生成式AI的迅速發展﹐對社會各行各業所造成的影響﹐更是必須迎頭面對的趨勢國家社會所面對的挑戰﹐複雜度越來越高轉變速度也越來越快 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
26184.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
26205.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
考試院在第13屆考試委員的努力之下．除了延續執行年金改革的兼具任務外．也積極推動多項業務革新與轉型．加強選材彈性化與多元化．強化教考訓用的合作．提升國考效能．已經有很好的起步 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
26206.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
26229.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
如果各位委員認為我的文官資歷還有可以奉獻的餘地希望能夠得到各位的支持讓我在公務生涯所累積的能力與經驗可以有機會與考試院同仁們一起努力在考試院的領域再盡綿薄之力以上報告進行指教謝謝謝謝柯麗鈴院長的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
26237.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
26256.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
我們接下來我們來進行所有委員的詢問我們首先要請我們跟全院委員會報告我們每一位委員詢答時間20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員如不在場我們視為棄權首先請林月晴委員詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
26271.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
26298.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
麻煩我們的柯麗鈴被提名來麻煩請柯院長請備選謝謝院長委員好柯檢察官你好目前現職身兼最高檢察署的檢察官以及代理司法官學院的院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
26299.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
26325.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那我剛看聽你的報告你過去也在富有保護跟人口販運領域裡邊有非常多的參與那如果你成功出任考試委員將會是司法體系第一個轉任為考試院的第一人那外界當然對你有非常高的期待那所以想請問就是說從司法體系轉任到考試院如果你的優勢是什麼國家為什麼要把這個職務交託給你 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
26328.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
26346.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我想重複我剛才報告的就是我這幾年是在就是在從事有關司法官的培訓所以對於訓練中所遭遇到的看到的一些問題還有這個就是應該有一些經驗可以分享 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
26348.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
26370.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
我覺得我們法律人的訓練就是我未必什麼樣都會精通可是我們的強項是我們很可以分析事實所以如果有一個制度我在評估各種資料之後我們在歸納分析上會比較強 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
26371.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
26391.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
那我想由於法律人的訓練那加上我自己過去在公務體系服務那麼久的經驗大概不管是當檢察官或者是檢察行政或者單純的行政事務或者檢察首長我想這些累積的經驗大概對於我 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
26392.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
26412.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
將來在考試院所要面臨的﹐包括考選﹐或者是公務人員﹐的這個文官制度﹐或是保障等等﹐我想﹐我也希望能夠奉獻一點心力所以就這樣續問﹐那如果﹐陳主任剛剛講的﹐你有這樣子的一個擔任的優勢﹐那對於你﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
26415.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
26445.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
考試院的這個委員的職務你應該有事先的規劃那你上任之後有哪些工作是你認為在你任內要達成的目標我當然第一個部裡頭希望我奉獻的就是這個我剛剛有報告的法律專業人員資格任用條例在規劃上可不可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
26445.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
26446.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
26468.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
26490.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
所以我希望我的文官的背景可以在這方面能夠發揮一點就是作用那另外考選的部分雖然我之前所關切的是比較重在司法官的考選不過在瞭解的過程當中也確實發覺到在考選的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
26490.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
26507.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
其實還有很多我們可以參考的因此在考選的業務方面我也希望能夠用我所累積的經驗來提供跟考試院的同仁一起來研究 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
26508.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
26512.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
副院長、副院長、副院長、副院長、副院長、副院長、副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
26527.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
26556.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
好幾次的協商直到11月26號本院才正式進入到審查這延拓了很久那也因為這樣的一個延拓當然就有很多人會有點擔心尤其事實上是身心障礙者他們非常關心明年初的身心障礙人員特考是否能夠如期舉行也想問我們的科檢察官甚至就是我們的科備提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
26556.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
26565.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
你能否確保身心障礙者的特考如果你進入到考試院如期能夠確保他們如期報名然後如期舉行 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
26567.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
26592.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
報告委員就我了解就是在考試院在上一屆的委員屆期之後考試院有一個機動的機制這是如同大家在報紙上有看到的他們有做了一些緊急的處理確保一些比較近期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
26594.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
26623.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
考試是可以如期舉行的不過我必須跟委員報告這個我沒有確定是不是在他們所已經安排好的範圍之內那當然如果我有機會過去的話我想我一定會關切這個問題因為我們很希望因為對身心障礙者的權益他們要去特考也是他們的權益之一所以除了身心障礙者特考之外其他將在明年初舉辦的考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
26624.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
26627.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
都應該如期舉辦那你願意擔當嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
26629.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
26656.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
我想我會盡力當然就很期待能夠看到另外一個就是我很關心的一個課題想來跟我們的被提名人討論一下就是社工師的考試改革的相關問題的確你是來自司法體系我想考試的問題大概都一致目前社工師的考取率過低現況只有20%可是實際上其實上是更少的僅有13.64% |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
26658.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
26685.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
不管是社安網或是民間團體都非常需要這樣的一個專業人員來挹注才可以解決我們的社會問題可是社工私人率需求低推估需要24%那民間團體期待可以到達32%我們的社會問題隨著少子化高齡化問題非常的多可是跟現狀現在我們期待是32%可是實際上只有13.64%所以跟現狀還有一大段的差距 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
26685.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
26711.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
入曲率太低也是社工師缺工的原因之一所以除此之外社工師對於我們的應考提行跟配分方式跟應考資格的部分也都持續都有檢討的呼聲希望能夠改革可是在此之前社工師是一直持續跟衛福部協商的但根本的問題不是跟衛福部協商應該法律的主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
26712.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
26740.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
事實上是考試院所以想問被提名人社工師從培訓考取率還有考試內容跟應考資格的爭議都已經在民間討論非常多年了我不知道你是否知情還有你對這樣子有什麼看法是 謝謝委員對於社工師我自己因為我以前在從事婦幼的這個領域其實跟他們常常有接觸了 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
26741.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
26759.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
那知道說他們的工作非常辛苦非常真的人力很缺有時候看他們工作的狀況真的很替他們不捨那在考試部分考試院這邊當然是負責這個就是負責整個考試的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
26761.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
26790.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那為什麼即可而立會太低我想很可能會涉及的就是我找的點字委員他們的出題方向那出的題目是不是真的符合這個用人機關的需求以及實務界的需求那有沒有考慮到社工師在培訓端就是在教育端之前他們的所受的教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
26790.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
26805.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
有沒有辦法銜接那我想如果有機會將來有機會到考試院服務的話我想對我所關切的社工事朋友們的這一塊我想我會謝謝委員的提醒我會努力去 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
26806.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
26806.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
26830.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
26845.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
我覺得所有的制度都是可以被檢討的那只要委員有提出來這些問題我想我都很樂於就是將來有機會的話跟大家一起來瞭解我很期待為什麼因為我怕考試院不知情 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
26846.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
26869.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
本席的辦公室還先前把社公司跟衛福部協商後的結論發函給考試院但不知道考試院是怎麼樣已讀不回還是根本就沒有讀至今到現在都沒有任何回覆所以本席這邊也希望說我們的被提名人能夠承諾若上任後應該儘速瞭解這些癥結點到底是什麼而且給予我們回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
26871.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
26889.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
我們社公司都在協助社會去解決社會問題然後讓社會可以更進步可是始終考試院這邊好像對我們社公司的權益、考試制度都比較沒這麼積極的去做回應不知道您這邊是不是可以去做這樣的一個承諾 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
26890.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
26912.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
是的﹐如同我剛才報告委員﹐我對社會﹐社工是朋友的﹐他們這一塊的﹐狀況也非常關切了﹐那委員所反映的問題﹐我想﹐我個人的行事風格﹐我一向是重﹐溝通﹐所以﹐不管在哪個崗�位上﹐我就認為﹐溝通非常重要﹐那溝通包括﹐跨單位﹐跨機關﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
26914 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
26939.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
所以我想如果我有機會到考試院服務的話我願意跟我們的同仁跟相關的機關一起來瞭解看問題到底是出在哪裡可以怎麼樣解決也希望這樣因為一直以來民間團體很難跟考試院對話在這個民主的社會裡面考試院應該要去傾聽民意所以本席要求考試院要開設一個跟民間團體直接對話的管道所以你願意承擔這樣的一個任務嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
26940.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
26941.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
11月4日發生勞動部公務人員親身的憾事引發外界高度關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
26962.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
26985.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
所有人都在質疑勞動部身為勞工的最高主管機關為什麼發生內部公務人員疑似因受虐過勞而輕生的案件令人憤怒那也並對同仁感到惋惜所以本席認為這次事件並非特定的機關個案而是整體公務體系內的職場文化的問題公務人員跟國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
26986.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
27007.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
本來就存在一個比較特別的權力關係所以公務人員以服從作為忠誠義務的展現可是一旦受到不法事件侵害的時候這勢必讓公務人員因為不敢申訴任事情持續所以我不知道我們的備提名人有沒有針對這樣子案子這個案子你有沒有在關注有 是 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
27007.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
27026.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
那我想再進一步問你對於如何去調和公務人員的忠誠義務跟公務人員救濟的問題因為身為法律人你的見解如何我想如果是就霸凌這件來講公務人員當然是要忠誠可是我覺得最重要的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
27027.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
27048.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
你當一個主管的人你不能這樣就是說你在教育你的你在教導你的同仁的時候你應該是好好的照顧你的員工讓員工可以上班每天都愉悅的上班讓他有很好的心情可以充分的把他能力發揮出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
27050.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
27073.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那我自己在檢察官生涯裡面其實我覺得蠻幸運的我碰到了我們檢察的首長其實真的他們都是非常客氣很少看到他們發脾氣那所以我自己當了首長之後我也是期待自己不要成為同仁的壓力源 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
27075.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
27095.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
所以我一直也跟我自己的主管勉勵就是把同仁照顧好應該是我們的責任所以我覺得在職場霸凌這一塊我們最近都在講怎麼樣去救濟那我其實想的除了救濟之外怎麼樣防免一先 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
27096.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
27107.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
我想說以我在檢察體系看到的我們的長官在挑主管大概尤其像挑檢察長那個大概都有經過慎選也經過打聽經過這個各界的推選 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
27113.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
27131.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
所以在推選上為什麼會去用到一個可能他EQ不是很高的是選的時候出問題呢還是本來很好可是他在職場上面臨壓力之後他的情緒管控沒辦法做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
27132.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
27151.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
所以我覺得我們不管是當上司或是當同仁我想我們對於情緒的管控、壓力的調適我想這應該是訓練裡面我們的培訓不管是在職訓練、職前訓練包括我們考試院將來我知道說 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
27156.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
27179.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
我去了之後我知道說他們還有一個升官等的訓練我想在訓練的時候這些應該都是重點專業科目當然重要可是像這種很扎實很基本牽扯到一個人格的這些也是很需要被關注的所以這些怎麼樣避免會產生霸凌的我想也是我們必須要去關注的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
27182.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
27199.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
不過本期以為這樣的不幸事件﹐延伸出人力跟勞動條件﹐跟申訴救濟﹐當委贊成你剛剛講的﹐說不是走到最後﹐那個所謂只有申訴救濟而已﹐可是公務人員的業務量非常的大﹐職務背在承辦人員身上﹐所以我們知道﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
27200.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
27215.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
公務人員服務法裡對於勞動條件有明確的規範可是實際上申請加班就算長官不准你還是要把工作做完所以有很多加班的黑數另外經核准的加班應該要給付的加班費可是礙於預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
27215.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
27217.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅、王秀紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
27235.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
27253.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
其實在我們檢察署這個其實也是一個大問題大家都知道我們檢察官當檢察官的其實加班是很正常的事情可是你頂多讓他領有固定時數的加班費其他大概只能補休 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
27255.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
27263.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
你就是這麼忙哪有空補休所以我覺得當然就是這些加班的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
27264.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
27288.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
可以再檢討了那另外一個就是說為什麼會有這麼多的工作讓公務員加班加不完要來做那這也是像我們司法體系法官檢察官都在抱怨說為什麼有這麼多的案件那我想很普遍性的現在在很多公務機關都面臨到業務量太重的問題那這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
27291.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
27319.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
如果不能根本解決我覺得再給他再多的加班的福利我覺得其實對公務員也是不見得是很好的保障因為我想對大部分的公務員來講他寧可多休息而不要領這些加班費或是什麼加班補休之類的所以我也想要求就本期要求考試院要主動去審視公務人員服務法落實的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
27320.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
27344.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
所以也期待這個責任由妳來承擔 妳願意承擔嗎是當然 如果有機會過去一定盡力去做好 也謝謝 再者就要來看一下本席認為職場霸凌就是犯罪不管有足夠的證據去控訴霸凌者可是他就是觸犯刑法的犯罪行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
27346.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
27363.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
所以在法律保障底下．被害人具有主張侵權行為．損害賠償的權利以外．雇主也要負擔其安全義務．跟連帶賠償責任．公務機關也要去做負擔．您對於這個見解．你有什麼樣的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
27364.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
27382.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
我想這個責任就是應該是依照目前的法律的規定來論斷所以我想法律上目前有什麼樣的這個規定我想法院如果在射送的時候法院應該都會去適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
27386.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
27389.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
公務公家機關的內部申訴機制失靈時會變成基層員工申訴無門 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
27399.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
27419.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
認為是不是應該能夠委託法律輔助基金會也好律師公會也好或民間司改會來成立外部的申訴窗口並且要求允許申訴者在申訴程序當中進行透過這些外部管道指派的律師來擔任輔助人對此你有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
27421.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
27440.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
我想這個都是可以討論的啦做一個法律人我們是當然期待說所有的申訴都被有效處理那至於到底是外部好還是內部好我覺得各有優缺點我們可以再討論那外部當然大家會覺得比較公正 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
27442.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
27460.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
那內部的好處是我在調查的時候比較有效因為是我內部所以我要保當有一方需要保護的時候我比較可以就是說可以去發動這些保護措施那外部的機構他要進來調查不見得是那麼容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
27461.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
27488.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
那可是就是說可能一般會覺得說我就是內部深宿無門嘛那這樣我們是不是可以再設計一些機制其實我想我們現在其實很多像說首長信箱部長也有部長信箱所以我覺得是可以再討論對所以最後再請你是不是也願意擔任這個修法的一個責任是因為之前我們的院長候選人也有承諾說他願意來討論我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
27495.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
27522.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
謝謝林業勤委員的詢問：謝謝柯院長的詢答接下來請登記第二位徐宇珍委員詢問院長我們是不是請我們被庭名人柯麗鈴院長麻煩請被庭名人柯院長來詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
27527.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
27544.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
委員好被提名人你好我想剛剛有您的報告當中有提到您是檢查體系被提名考試委員的第一人那您對於這樣的這個轉換跑道您也覺得是一個全新的挑戰那我想今天就教您幾個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
27546.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
27563.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
第一個就是剛剛我想有很多委員提到就近期針對公務部門有很多起的霸凌事件的產生那當然其中又以勞動部勞發署的這個五姓公務人員他親身的案件最令人覺得悲痛那當然根據勞動部的一個檢查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
27565.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
27583.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
他提到說謝義榮分署長．他的這個作為．管理方式目的良善．但是過於嚴厲這份報告也引發社會．廣泛的質疑許多人也都認為這樣的結論．其實對於我們往生者．我們的這個被害者是不負責任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
27584.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
27595.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
所以依照您被提名的背景顯示您曾致力於改善弱勢族群的權益但是我們需要知道面對如此爭議的事件您是否認同勞動部的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
27599.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
27616.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
我覺得是可以再檢討啦因為雖然說尤其是他目的良善這個用語我想引起很廣泛的討論那像我基本的理念是認為說人跟人之間應該是相互尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
27617.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
27640.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
我們在機關裡面大家都是機關裡面的一顆很重要的齒輪或許有大有小可是它每一個人的價值沒有什麼不同所以我覺得當一個主管或是當一個首長更應該以一種尊重的方式來溝通、來領導 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
27644.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
27659.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
我覺得現在的尤其現在的年輕人他們都是在從小就是那種很受關注那所以他們對於如果是傳統的這種權威式的領導他們可能會反彈很大那我覺得基本上就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
27662.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
27681.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
相互的尊重應該是一個普遍的價值觀所以貝提美認為這樣的報告其實沒有反映出問題的根本原因嗎我覺得可以再檢討另外就是說我們政府在處理這類的霸凌事件的時候因為目前我們公務人員體系並沒有霸凌的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
27683.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
27706.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
所以在處理這樣子的一個霸凌事件的時候相關的爭議也往往難以解決所以因為公務員員跟勞工其實是相對不一樣的一個性質是不是要制定公務員的職安法這樣的專法那如果您當選考試委員會不會提出相關的修法有沒有思考過可能的修法跟立法的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
27707.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
27730.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
我想在因為我的了解其實現在在不管是在行政院體系或者是司法院那邊我有看到他們都用行政指導的方式大概有提出了一些那個辦法那這些辦法其實我看了他們其實都有像他們要設的這些委員會或小組其實都有引進外部委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
27732.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
27759.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
所以如果這些制度是可以徹底執行的話那其實並不見得不能夠解決問題那今天會出現這個問題因為我不太曉得勞動部那邊的狀況他到底是這個人曾經提出申訴沒有被都被壓下來呢還是他根本就是他的壓力讓他覺得我根本就不想申訴那所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
27761.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
27780.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
假設說我們因為實務上的一些需求認為說這個問題的確有用法提高到法律的位階來引起各方的尊重那我覺得這是可以討論的那至於是修在哪裡比較有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
27782.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
27811.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
現在好像也有人提到說是不是在這個公務人員保障法那邊徵修我想這些都可以討論如果是定一個專法您認為呢就是剛講的這個公務員治安法專法我覺得就是要可能要跟相關要收集相關的這些目前的這些法律可以因應的部分然後來討論那你要設專法呢到底是公務員的專法還是我要一體運用的專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
27813.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
27838.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
所以也希望說這個部分的話我想現在針對剛剛也提到公務員其實跟勞工其實不一樣的所以說針對公務人員能不能制定一個專法我覺得對公務人員的這個相關的保障應該也相對重要那另外就是剛剛也特別提到這個謝怡榮分署長的這個部分目前他是依據公務員考機法的第12條第一項第二款第二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
27839.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
27865.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
一次計兩大過者免職但是呢你可以看我想請貝提名看一下就是他第三項有規定非有下列情形者不得為一次計兩大過處分所以依現行的法規來看其實並沒有明確的規範可以計謝宜榮兩個大過所以他如果依法提出複審請求救濟將會有考試院的保訓會審議決定請問貝提名人依此規定來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
27867.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
27870.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
沈宜蓉救濟成功的機會有多大? |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
27891.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
27918.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
是不是說沒有明文寫這個霸凌兩個字是不是這些都用不上我覺得是可以因為現在各界都在質疑依現行的法規來看雖然謝宜蓉是被這個目前是說被紀兩大國免職可是以現行的法規來看只要她提出申訴的話有可能根本沒有辦法就是把她免職所以這個部分的話請問被庭名人有沒有什麼做法覺得可以解決現行法的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
27918.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
27930.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
如果是我來用的話我可能會看到我這邊的文字上我可能會看到的是言行不檢言行不檢是嚴重損害政府或公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
27932.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
27960.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
這也是我剛提到就是說我們很多條文其實或許沒有寫霸凌要怎麼樣霸凌要怎麼樣可是有些概括性的言辭或許是可以涵蓋所以他的救濟當然我們要看他就是他的背後的具體事實是怎麼樣那因為現在沒有看到這個具體案件的相關的事實所以恐怕我在這邊沒辦法做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
27962.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
27985.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
這個比較明確的答覆那針對這次的霸凌事件前勞動部長何佩珊她也特別提到她說她對於龐大的官僚體系陌生始終保持著戒慎恐懼那也希望跟文官發展出合作跟友善的關係可是也忽略了文官體系有難以掌握的陋習跟惡習來自於不曾想像的邪惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
27987.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
28011.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
那我們看到政府高官對於自己的這個部門的公務人員充滿的敵視所以會導致人才的一個流失也進一步削弱了這政府的執行率所以如果依照勞動部前部長何佩珊的說法的話官僚霸凌是長久以來的官場的陋習那面對這個狀況請問一下柯院長你覺得有沒有什麼具體的方法可以打破這樣的一個官僚結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
28014.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
28029.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
我覺得就是藉這個機會或許可以給很多主管或者是首長讓他們體認到威權式的領導並不是最可靠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
28031.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
28046.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
那或許也可以藉這個機會可以形成一股力量來推動就是讓機關裡面的文化可以是充滿互相尊重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
28046.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
28072.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
是照顧同仁的是同仁可以安心在裡面辦公的可以是同仁在裡頭這個很愉快的把他的這個力量雖然可能是累的可是他可以很願意很盡心的把他的力量發揮出來我覺得這應該是我們這一次大家最大的質疑大概就是官官相護這樣的一個問題那針對這個部分的話您覺得這個部分要怎麼來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
28076.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
28094.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
我自己如果在我能力所及部分我想我自己不會關關相輔啦那我在就是說像我在處理學院的事務我也不怕說這個自曝其短該處理就是要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
28095.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
28114.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
那我想把它形成一個文化那或許有適當的監督的像說行政官還是有立委的監督那監察院那邊有時候也會適當的從監察院角度來做這個監督我想還是可以來共同來努力來扭轉這個這個文化 謝謝好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
28118.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
28137.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
我想針對這個霸凌的事件就賴清德總統有說過他覺得可以讓公務人員來放身心調試假來處理那其實您可以看一下就是近年來各級政府的公務人員離職就非常的嚴重比起以前高出很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
28137.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
28159.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
每年平均離職人數大概是一萬三千多人那您可以看到現在是指辭職的人數從110年您可以看到兩千一百九十二人111年兩千四百九十六人112年兩千七百五十二人再創新高對比到我們106年年改的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
28160.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
28181.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
才761人足足增加了2000人所以為什麼有這麼高的一個辭職率因為各級的公務員員的反應因為人少、事多、壓力大所以要嘛就請求調職如果調職不成就選擇辭職那以往大家都說公務員員是鐵飯碗根本不可能有這樣子的一個方式就選擇辭職那請問為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
28185.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
28207.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
公務人員的鐵飯碗會生鏽是不是跟年金改革導致收入減少有沒有關係請教貝爾提米爾拜訪委員關於這個辭職的原因我記得我看過統計數字裡面大部分寫的原因是寫因為個人生涯規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
28210.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
28219.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
是這種官方的說法嗎這是他們勾的根據他們勾因為他們知道他們要勾選一些理由那所以在統計數字上 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
28222.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
28224.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
請問您覺得跟年改導致收入減少有沒有關係? |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
28244.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
28256.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
是不是原因之一我覺得沒有統計之前沒辦法單純從這部分就做出這樣的推論出來因為原因可能會有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
28257.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
28282.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
因為其實我想現在因為年金改革的關係工人員的收入一直減少尤其是退休之後沒有辦法收到這樣的保障所以說造成很多年輕人連報考都不願意了那即使考進來的時候後來發覺我在可能辛苦工作一輩子到最後沒有辦法好好的安度餘生所以說很多造成這樣一個狀況我想這個是不是原因之一可能也是要請我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
28283.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
28301.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
科院長能夠好好的來探討一下那另外針對我們的消費者物價指數就是已經屢屢超過主計總署等相關單位認定的2%的這個通膨的警戒線導致物價上漲那高齡的退休者他們的生活也越來越困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
28302.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
28331.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
那恐怕會使領這些退休金的我們的這些工人員的生活越來越不好那請問被提名人就是您針對年金改革的制度您的看法我想這是一個很很龐大的一個制度的一個變革那每一個他每一個設計都都會牽一髮而動全身那在這個設計呢也經過很多專家的這個評估了 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
28332.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
28356.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
那據我的了解：他主要是要解決：這個年金可能會破產的：基金可能會破產的問題那我看到的這個：就是：看到的資料是顯示出說：在年改之後：我們這個年金用慶的：這個的年限是有延後：有延後 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
28357.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
28385.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
那這個基金的收入也有增加因為我現在減少了多付出去的減少了那可是依住的因為我法律規定我因為減少節省所這個節省下來的經費要依住到基金所以好像在績效上是請問一下被提名人您是法律人如果基於信賴保護原則的話你覺得應該做這樣的年改嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
28386.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
28415.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
我想這一部分大法官好像也有表示一些意見我想一個政府他要做這樣的改革應該有他的整個規劃要不然政府我想沒有一個政府不管是誰執政願意去做得罪這麼多人的一個問題所以我想說這個問題到底是不是對大部分人不合宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
28417.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
28442.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
這個大家可以來看看那尤其是減少的收入的情形我想需要一些具體的數字來檢視現在退休人員他所領的薪資跟限職人員的薪資到底差距多少有一些比較具體的數字出來之後或許大家可以在理智的取精算您剛剛有提到說因為可能是因為基金的關係怕會有用慶的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
28444.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
28461.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
不過說實在以這幾年來說政府其實都超收稅金每年都打幾千億所以說如果真的有這樣的問題的話基於信賴保養者要照顧過去的我們這些退休的人員在年輕的時候跟政府的約定就是希望他能夠在年輕的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
28462.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
28485.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
因為當時的一個時空背景所以他們的薪資相對低可是政府為了延攬優秀的人才能夠進入到政府所以有一點薪資遞延的一個概念保障他年老之後可以有這個退休金可以養餘生但是現在因為這樣的年改導致我們的這些退休的人員感覺上好像就是被政府騙了因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
28487.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
28509.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
現在因為年改的關係他們的所得替代率一直不斷地遞減那到今年為止已經遞減到67.5%那我本席也有提出修正案希望能夠就是到113年1月1號停止遞減請問您知不支持年金所得替代率能夠遞減我想這一個停止它的遞減 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
28511.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
28534.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
我想這個不是我贊不贊同而是我想這個要看精算的結果啦那我覺得這個還是必須要信賴我們的專家那看是不是考試院這邊找到就是我想他們有一個團隊嘛提出他們精算的結果那這個精算的結果其實應該是可以受民意監督的 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
28535.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
28558.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
最後再請教您一個問題就是您知不知道就是今天在凱道有一個活動就是追思白玫瑰的活動您知道嗎今天因為剛剛中午的時候我有過去參加這個活動是由重大刑案被受害者的家屬所舉辦的那現場都是這一次就是因為家屬受害而 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
28560.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
28585.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
導致說他們自己的親人受到殺害那這些受到殺害的這些家屬呢卻因為這次大法官這個憲判制第8號的判決讓他們的這個已經判定死刑了但也沒有辦法執行現在已經改判無期徒刑所以請問被提名的人您是否支持廢除死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
28587.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
28600.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
我想這一個大法官他做了很多限制當然受到很多的批評我覺得死刑這一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
28602.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
28622.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
從保護人權來講他到底是不是如果廢除到底是不是保護其實這是從這是沒辦法有一致的見解的因為你是從被害人的角度跟加害人的角度那絕對是不同的結論那從被害人的角度絕對是沒辦法接受要廢除死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
28623.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
28641.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
那從國際人權他們在呼籲的又是要廢除死刑那一個社會裡面到底可不可以接受廢除死刑我覺得其實就是看我們的民意能不能接受那貝提米納您本身您支不支持廢除死刑我覺得是可以討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
28642.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
28655.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
沒討論因為我想剛剛有提到我們宪判制第8號現在的判決其實有8項的條件所以您身為檢察官依據這8項的條件你認為1015的經驗目前還有判決死刑的可能嗎我必須承認是非常難 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
28663.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
28677.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
一致決法官一致決還有各項的這個八項的先幾乎是等於就是實質廢死了所以在這個部分的話基於剛剛您也提到就是針對這個被害者的這個社會正義跟秩序維護的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
28679.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
28693.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
其實它都有不可替代的作用所以說針對這個部分請問一下就是說如果在實質廢死的狀況之下那被害人的正義能夠在沒有死刑的一個狀況之下得到彰顯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
28697.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
28719.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
因為這牽涉到價值判斷那我想我到考試院我們的執掌裡面大概比較不會牽涉到我對死刑的就是我必須採什麼樣的態度那如同我剛才所講的我覺得這是從不同的角度要看民意我可以接受到什麼樣的程度那從被害人的角度我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
28720.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
28749.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
因為現在的民意調查大概都有八成的民意是反對廢死的但是大法官這個先判之第8號卻是這個等同實質廢死所以我想這不是我們的一般民眾能夠接受的好 謝謝徐宇臻委員的詢問也謝謝我們柯院長被提名的詢答沒有人先喝口水喝口水我們就開始我剛剛看你沒喝水 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
28754.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
28767.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
好 接下來我們請徵記第三位黃珊珊委員詢問謝謝院長 我想請柯院長麻煩再請被提名人柯院長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
28775.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
28794.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
院長好我想今天大家都問一樣的問題我也想同樣的問題要再跟您做個探討我知道你來自司法界很難得考試院有這樣的提名人那當然在檢察署包括剛剛講的死刑也好其實跟司法行政還是有很多的關係同樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
28796.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
28815.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
考試委員．考試院．擔負了臺灣．重要的公務人員的．不管是任用．最後的保障．甚至是退休所以這個．勞動部的這個案子．不管您從您的角度來看．這一次是不是關關相護．到關了殺人 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
28820.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
28841.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
因為整個內部的情形因為我不曉得他事先是不是有申訴不受理了他有申訴但是都一直在機關裡面沒有出來也沒有找到外部委員他就是一個有機制沒有被落實的非常好的案例我覺得就是很遺憾的就是他這麼這位同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
28843.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
28860.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
會發展到放棄自己的生命我相信他一定是求助無門看到相關的人大家沒有舉手莫不作聲縱容了這個首長他濫權絕對不是一天 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
28861.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
28885.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
而且他的霸凌已經是常態所以這整個機制我今天就說嘛多年前我們在社會上有一個很嚴重的事情叫做紅重囚事件他讓我們改革了軍隊改革了相關的法治多年後我們竟然在2024的臺灣民主法治的社會我們又在討論一個公務員為什麼被霸凌致死他一定不會是 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
28887.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
28906.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
馬上發生他一定是一個長期累積沒有辦法求助最後他知道他沒有希望所以他結束自己的生命一個公務員為什麼要用生命去換取體制的改革這是我們今天要深深思考的所以我想問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
28908.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
28931.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
副院長,我們都是來自,我也當過首長我相信對相關的法制您都很清楚公務系統裡面現在有沒有相關的機制可以防止這些事情發生有吧,都有其實我覺得就公務公務員要保障法,有服務法有各種法,但是就少了霸凌法,對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
28932.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
28953.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
公務人員本來就應該負相關的懲戒或者是行政責任那如果是已經涉及到刑法那當然還有刑事責任所以我們一直都是一個問題是我們有規定但是沒落實有調查機制但是調查報告可以關關相護最嚴重的是他還可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
28955.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
28973.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
壓在他的機關高達數個月甚至如果沒有這個公務員的死亡到今天為止可能這個案子還暗無天日所以重點是考試院主管的法規有公務員保障法有公務員考機法還有相關的安全衛生防護辦法看起來一點都沒有作用對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
28975.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
28997.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
我想之前院長貝提名他也承諾是這是你們要做的這也是中華民國體制上面要改的有辦法要落實第二個現在我們對於所謂的公務人員大家都在爭取尤其是錦囂我們在爭取公會公會的部分主要是團結權第二個他有協商權那最重要他有一個爭議權這個勞動三權 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
28999.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
29022.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
我看過您的相關的問卷您好像不太贊成入法是嗎對於公務人員的部分我覺得不是不贊成入法而是說我們現在有一個公務人員我們有相關的法你贊不贊成至少錦霄應該有相關的保護因為他有特殊的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
29023.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
29042.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
是,因為根據現在現在考試院已經提出修正草案修正草案但是大家都不滿意啦修正草案裡面有警消人員的特種公務人員協會但是就是不成立公會不給罷免權罷工權這樣其實是不完整的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
29044.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
29066.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
我想罷工權的給予這個其實在各國的法制上還可以再討論我同意但是我的意思是說如果我們要做勞動的三法的精神我相信考試院有這個責任去釐清現在基層的需求好嗎是第二個部分是考試院一直是我們現在大家的問題這個問題在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
29069.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
29085.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
這個問題我們去研究了一下憲法保障憲法對於考試院的執掌講得很清楚要考試任用權序考積最後保障升遷包括退休養老我想問一下柯院長您的理解考試院跟考試委員功能在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
29087.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
29115.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
我還沒有去了據我了解考試院它是合一制那兩部一會那藉著院會的形式來推動所以你對考試委員跟考試院的功能執掌還不很清楚然後考試委員有時候他還要兼任因為現在剩下七位委員沒關係我說你對他的認知是你們要保障公務員還是要考核公務員還是要禁用公務員然後不管他的退場 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
29117.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
29142.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
我想這個法律上我關於這些法制是我們就講這個案子好了這個案子憲永的案子很清楚的是我們在憲法上面考試院有這些執掌從禁用開始到保障到退休但是憲永的案子裡面行政機關用公務員考機法把它兩大過免職然後運用的是公務員考機法這是行政單位的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
29143.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
29162.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
公務人員懲戒法是將來會交給監察院跟司法院也就是說發生類似的案子考試院一點角色都沒有發生這麼大的霸凌案件考試院一點聲音也沒有這不是很奇怪嗎我們中華民國國父在 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
29164.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
29177.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
創建三民主義的時候五權憲法的時候他現在的考試院的執掌顯然被這幾個單位都分割了也就是考試院目前為止只管禁用 不管退場你同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
29182.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
29208.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
考試院如果有趣的話我希望考試院要管退場今天的問題就在於退場的機制在哪裡在原機關如果真的嚴重的才會到所謂的工程會才會到司法院所以司法權監察權都已經剝奪了考試權你們管的後面的權利也就是考試院目前的執照已經離原來的五權憲法很遠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
29208.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
29210.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
我覺得這個部分如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
29211.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
29237.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
柯院長可以的話去爭取一下考試院在所謂的人事禁用還有人事退場上面的權責否則看起來就是考試院只能眼巴巴的看著這些機關不做事然後被罵考試院一起挨罵但是真正不處理的是那個行政機關第二個接下來到監察院到司法院就像很多的委員說的如果他去申訴他成功了他還可以回任公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
29239.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
29265.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
這個公平跟正義我相信考試院不應該就放任他繼續能夠回到我們的公務系統繼續傷害其他的公務人員對吧這個可以法治上是不是要在明白的規定限制這種好這個案子最特別的是剛剛很多委員在問他其實就是針對謝宜蓉被處分的他是用所謂的圖謀不法利益嚴刑不檢這個比較像 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
29266.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
29290.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
但是裡面有一條考試法12條第3項第6款脅迫公然侮辱誣告長官情節重大的時候也可以計兩大過免職對吧但是這個條款非常非常的威權要脅迫公然侮辱誣告長官情節重大才會被免職所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
29291.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
29312.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
脅迫公然侮辱部署同仁不屬於考機法的處罰範圍你覺得合理嗎這樣聽起來是不合理是這個是應該是我們應該是我們威權時代吧或者皇權時代的事的所以如果可以的話您可以承諾這一條條文是不是該修啊是我們可以再檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
29313.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
29325.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
如果入罵同仁、入罵部署、情節重大也是用這一條今天謝以榮他可能就不可能翻案對吧是好,我希望院長你可以說到做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
29326.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
29351.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
接下去我們要講的是公務員的禁用剛剛講了考試院既然管禁用但是考試院管的禁用還是停留在我認為停留在我們的科舉時代為什麼因為我們需要考試是公平的是公開的所以由考試院還有相關的考試機關來決定用人的考試保持所謂的中立性跟獨立性 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
29352.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
29375.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
可是現在很多的機關就像今天勞動部發生的事情一樣有很多機關的用人他從來沒有看過他將來會分發到他這裡的人是誰也就是我們的考試沒有做事先的用人機關並沒有參與任何考試的過程甚至不知道誰會分發到他的這裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
29376.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
29401.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
所以很多的考試院在國家原力資源論壇裡面一直在討論說要不要增加所謂的口試院長你來自司法界我知道我們的司法官是需要口試的對吧對我們當律師不用口試啊但是考司法官要口試曾經有過考上司法官筆試過口試不過的因為他就可以做一些汰換對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
29402.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
29426.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
因為在接受考試前第二次他本來就是依照需用有多加百分之二十所以就會討厭他有一些沒錯第一次是資格就是基本的能力第二次就是我用人機關需要的人才這是所有民間機關的人力資源部門會做的事但是台灣的考試院非常非常重視公平所以用人機關從來不參與考試 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
29429.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
29432.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
Iwan NawiIwan Nawi |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
29453.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
29477.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
任命三年這三年長官對他不好他也只能忍氣吞聲就像剛剛講的他可能必須默不作聲然後等待三年的時間所以院長你覺得增加考試的機率是不是夠讓幼兒園機關能夠參與找到他適用的人我們是要考出讓他能夠用的人而不是只是用那些會考試的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
29479.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
29493.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
據我從考試院那邊看到的資料我知道他們這幾年也其實要再增加用人機關參與口試用人機關參與口試非常的少你看一下這個表格第一階段、第二階段從美國、日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
29495.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
29513.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
韓國或者中國大陸其實都是第一階段第二階段都有所謂的口試韓國是到第三階段那中華民國一律是比試第二階段有口試的只有少數特定的考試也就是說我們的用人機關其實根本不知道將來誰會到他這裡來而他也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
29514.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
29543.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
那些人可能也不知道這個機關它的相關的文化所以最後就會發生這種水土不服然後互相誤會誤解甚至最後發生這種霸凌的事件所以院長我們不希望公務員分發變成相親啊變成盲婚啊所以現在的全區部長一直說希望能夠增加面試如果你是考試委員這件事情你會怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
29545.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
29569.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
我想增加面試這的確是我所看到的很多用人尤其在國外很多用人機關的一個趨勢這我同意那在面試當中那這個用人機關要參與我想這個我如果有機會我想很會考試的人不一定能夠適應那個工作或者是那個環境所以考試是公平的 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
29569.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
29587.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
需要是要看用人機關的需求他必須要在用人之前先做參與甚至在用人之際他可以去選取他所適用的人好嗎口試當然很多人都說因為臺灣有非常多的觀說文化觀說文化不足口試又會變成另外一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
29588.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
29615.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
公平的對待所以我們為了公平取消了口試但是我們用了口試就可能被關說這一點可能是需要設計一個更完善的機制重點是我知道您在法務部也好或在司法機制來說您在您的報告上面寫您參與了非常多的行政機關的法制作業還有行政救濟的相關的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
29617.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
29628.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
一般機關都會有一個法制人員在每個機關裡面對吧幾乎大大小小不管是哪一個部門都會有一個法制人員在裡面全國大概有多少法制人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
29634.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
29652.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
全國的公務員有29萬人也就是說我們的法制人員占了1435人只占了不到0.48%但是每個機關裡面的法制人員你覺得除了法制人員以外的行政人員高普考進去的公務員他們的法學素養夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
29660.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
29672.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
其實都不太夠,因為他們都沒有考法律所以他們可能是做採購,要修修採購法但是大部分非法治人員的法學素養其實是很低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
29673.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
29684.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
所以我們的問題在於我看到案子裡面您也說現在跟法律院有關的機關有關公職律師的制度我想問說既然有法治人員為什麼要推公職律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
29686.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
29715.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
我想公職律師據我的了解他們是希望公職律師因為他有訴訟的經驗沒錯而且公職律師對於法學專業可能比一般的法治院他是行政法治不太一樣的跟訴訟實務不太一樣對吧律師他就看他的專業了好所以你覺得這個你的認知公職律師政府推動的目的是什麼希望做到什麼成果 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
29716.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
29728.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
我覺得應該是能夠讓機關的跟法制相關的業務能夠更接近實務那尤其是現在很多機關必須處理跟訴訟有關的我知道這個案子很好笑 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
29734.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
29755.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
在12年推出來我們做律師的看到都滿高興的因為為什麼?全世界都有各國先進國家都有公職律師美國有將近12萬人英國有將近2000人新加坡至少有380人香港有419人中華民國0人為什麼?我現在跟您說的很有趣 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
29758.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
29773.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
很有趣的部分就是在我們2012年、112年推出來的時候行政院告訴立法院說我們至少有27個機關需要73個公職律師推出來之後到現在整整兩、快一年多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
29774.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
29789.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
只有建保署跟國防部各要了兩個他們在修編制表其他的機關沒有人要來申請公職律師沒有人要甩考試院更沒有人要甩行政院的新政策到底怎麼回事對這個的理解怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
29794.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
29821.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
我也很訝異說到目前沒有人要申請沒有人要開編制因為照理說應該很多機關他碰到一些訴訟案件要需要人代理的時候那我現在就告訴你了我剛剛講的這些國家他佔職業律師的比例從美國是高達18%最低的香港有4.7%中華民國0人如果這兩個機關弄壞就變成4人我們有1萬多位律師的話我們可能0點百分之0.0幾重點是 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
29824.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
29853.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
是沒有人要做而是沒有機關要開圈這個問題才是問題我現在要說的就是公職律師跟法治院的角色的差異在哪裡第一個就是我們考選不當時的說法法治體系是在書院會或者相關的法治單位做法律的研擬跟諮商行政增送公職律師要在第一線的業務單位瞭解業務核心協助機關依法行政這兩個是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
29854.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
29877.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
但我很遺憾的告訴你財政部在我質詢他的時候問他說你們要開幾個公職律師因為你們一天到晚有所謂的土地訴訟啊、欠稅的訴訟他說不用我們的法制人員就夠了不用公職律師大不了用政府採購委外找民間律師開口合約一案子兩萬五萬塊就搞定院長可不可笑政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
29878.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
29901.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
自己的部門不支持自己的政策您當考試委員你有什麼感想我想如果有機會當考試委員我想應該會去了解原因是什麼是不是因為編制那個緣額的問題沒辦法解決沒錯這就是公務系統最痛苦的事情我想大概沒有人不一樣還有第二個就是如果我們只開了一個月六七萬塊的錢大概也不會有律師來 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
29903.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
29930.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
這兩個是如果我們要讓臺灣的每一個機關都能有一定的法治概念就不應該把公職律師排除在外第二個讓所有的法治人員都具有律師的資格這件事情可能也是另外一個方法其實現在只有11%他們是固定已經具有律師資格了好嗎最後一個問題就是我知道你在大力推動法律專業人員的資格跟任用條例的草案對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
29932.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
29959.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
四個考試合一檢、審、辯還有法制四試合一你認為就可以找回司法的公信力嗎我想當然這個要找回司法公信力沒有那麼簡單而且我覺得這個制度這四試合一裡面有一個很重要的精神他要做所謂的實習包括律師要實習司法官之前要實習然後實習呢我們現在的問題就在於司法界司法已經過勞了 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
29960.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
29962.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
謝謝黃珊珊委員的詢問也謝謝我們柯院長的背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
29991.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
29993.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
各位全院委員會 現在我們休息十分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
30590.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
30603.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
報告全院委員會我們現在繼續開會進行委員詢問接下來林郡縣委員之詢問以書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報在接下來請登記第5號林倩琪委員請詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
30617.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
30624.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
院長、各位立院同仁大家好我們先請柯備題名人麻煩備題名人柯院長請詢答委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
30634.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
30661.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
您好 科備體理委員您好您習慣我稱呼您院長還是都可以翻遍就好好 那我們就稱您科技院長您是一位資深的法律人也深谙法律我們也知道您長年擔任檢察官的這個職務對於違法亂紀的公務員您查緝起來也是非常的強硬本席在這邊想要救教您一件最近有爭議的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
30662.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
30676.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
有關於公務人員在名氣上跟圖利的觀感上的問題最近有一位政務官因為他在擔任官員之前推出了一些線上的復會課程 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
30678.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
30695.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
最近就有業者在相關的平台下了一些廣告來強力促銷這位政務官他的某一些課程是簡報的必修課這個線上的課程要價是不便宜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
30696.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
30724.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
引起了社會各界的疑慮對於公務人員又有這樣子的一個感覺上商業的行為導致了社會觀感不太好但是這位官員說這個是擔任公職前跟業者合作出版的依照合約業者可以這樣子重複出版也可以做這樣子的宣傳我不曉得您對這件事情的看法是如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
30729.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
30753.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
我知道現在公務人員比較最新的公務人員兼職辦法對於兼職的部分有做一些認定那這個因為我現在手邊沒有具體條文所以我覺得到底是不是符合那邊的規定可能要需要收集他個案的具體資料然後來看是不是符合這些條文的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
30755.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
30771.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
那剛才本席也提到這個社會觀感其實是不佳啦所以有一些人認為這樣子的這個官員的回應有點掩耳盜鈴因為雖然他沒有在這個平台上沒有關上所謂這個政府官員的頭銜 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
30772.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
30799.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
可是基本上大家都知道這位這個主角也是政府官員然後業者在他當了官員之後又這麼大力的促銷那其實有一些龐大的利益所以如果不是這樣子的高位我想這個高位也有可能因此水漲船高那名氣上揚也可能產生某一些我們可以計算跟沒有辦法計算的這個利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
30800.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
30811.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
在身為高官、在辟弦、自律、以身作者上,院長您的看法跟建議? |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
30814.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
30843.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
作為公務員本來就是要更加謹慎尤其像我們是長期擔任司法官其實我們在這方面的敏感度其實更高我個人是認為說因為不曉得這邊具體情節是什麼樣的狀況我個人是覺得你身為高官的話你更要謹言慎行尤其是不能夠說是利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
30843.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
30847.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
這位高官也放任業者來販賣他的著作 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
30872.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
30894.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
社會觀感上會有點覺得是遊走在法律的邊緣那這其實就算法律如同這位高官所講的他認為沒有問題但是這個道德爭議的行為您認為該怎麼處理還是您認為只要不違法那社會觀感不佳可能也沒有什麼太大的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
30896.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
30922.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
作為公務員應該是看他有沒有違反我剛講的那個堅持的規定那如果他完全沒有的話只是社會觀感的問題有時候是一種輿論的壓力或者是一種政治看有沒有到政治責任的地步那我想依具體個案在我這裡沒有足夠的資料可能不方便來評論 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
30926.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
30939.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
謝謝院長接下來我們就進行下一個提問我想這個提問應該也有很多委員這邊提到本席這邊就針對本席的一些看法來跟您就教 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
30940.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
30959.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
我想在公務人員這個退府、退休保障上的問題應該有很多委員這邊跟您做過的一些討論那我們都知道過去的背景這個優秀的人會進入公家機關那當時社會環境的背景可能也不是這麼的像現在一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
30960.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
30984.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
所以當時優秀的進入公家機關的人員就算薪資不高那也因為生活有保障最重要的是大家對於退休以後的保障在當時國家給予的承諾在年金這個部分就創造了吸引當時很重要的優秀人才這是很重要的一個誘因 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
30986.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
31014.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
後來年金改革對公務員的士氣產生了非常嚴重的打擊但是本席一直很不解的就您法律的專業這個部分還可以溯及既往一般民眾的看法跟想法是這些公務人員當時很辛苦的為國貢獻了這麼多年甚至二十幾年、三十幾年公務員都有等到他們要退休的時候相對的退休金打折了 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
31015.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
31015.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
31037.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
31051.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
如果依照標題他是年金改革有沒有違約我覺得這個從法律上來討論要非常複雜有爭執的話其實是可以依照現有的就計途徑例如說這個釋憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
31055.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
31058.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
31072.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
31075.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
這部分我覺得我個人還是需要尊重專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
31099.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
31123.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
就您的轉眼因為您剛才提到精算也就是說當時政府在跟這一些考進來的公務人員簽約的時候他們沒有精算正確也精算得不夠精確所以後來發現有一些問題的時候那是不是這些信任政府跟相信政府可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
31124.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
31135.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
履行承諾的公務人員他們就理所當然的要承受當時精算不正確或不精確的一個結果呢?您的看法呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
31136.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
31163.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
因為公務人員他基本上是一個任用他不是是用簽約了那他有他的一些這個任用的一些規定我想這是應該語詞上的不同吧那他會被任用那我們應該雙方還是有一個所謂契約的概念嘛那應該是國家給予公務人員的一些承諾那這個承諾其實我們概念上也是一種契約當然我們語詞上可以說得很精確您說任用 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
31165.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
31181.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
但是基本精神不是應該這樣子嗎我想這部分如果是大家都覺得不合理的話其實是例如說大法官會議司法院大法官他憲法法院是不是可以做出解釋用這樣來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
31184.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
31210.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
所以請記得我們剛才討論的這個問題因為如果過去精算不正確那後來就可以改變那有太多人的權益受到影響那這樣子應該嗎那這個錯誤應該誰去承受呢我想這是我們在討論當中延伸一個很重要的一個問題所以本席這邊交代一下這個脈絡啦年改的理由之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
31211.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
31234.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
因為這是社會各界聽到的軍公教救治年資的這個優惠存款隨著人員退休額增加那當時政府沒有算好嗎那政府和台銀支付的利息金額也持續成長所以每年需要幾百多億的我們當時算出來是八百多億造成財政莫大的負擔所以工人員從84年就開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
31237.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
31259.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
執行這樣子的一個改變那麼教育人員85年開始那軍職人員在86年都是年初1月1號左右來年資適用所謂的優存制度那過去如果照您所講的那政府沒有精算正確或者是可能所犯的錯誤難道這 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
31262.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
31281.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
要公務人員來承受嗎那是不是擺明了政府違約呢因為政府之前的錯誤而導致你們竟然把這個責任說是因為增加出來這些額度那我想這個部分很不合理一般人聽起來應該也都不合理耶您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
31282.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
31296.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
我想每個事情都有他不同的思考的角度我如果有機會到考試院的話我想因為這個是各方都非常重視的一個議題那也提出了很多的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
31297.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
31319.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
那到底這些建議是不是有採納的餘地在政府的財政之下是不是可以來妥當的處理達到這個基金永續性而且也可以兼顧這個公平性我想我如果有機會到考試院的話那我們會盡力跟同仁一起來努力來思考這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
31320.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
31343.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
所以本席這邊也要再給你一個概念跟建議那個如果是任何一家保險公司片面改變了保險的幾付條件那我想政府應該肯定先開法吧法辦再說吧那政府算錯了難道都沒有任何的應該擔負的責任嗎所以哪一個破產的公司講話比債權人更大聲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
31344.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
31362.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
政府如果覺得自己過往沒有做好的部分有這麼大的權益去讓許多的公務人員或是公教人員權益受損那政府不是應該更謙虛的來處理這件事情嗎但是我們過去幾年看到的好像都不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
31365.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
31386.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
我想每個政府的執政都會受到監督行政權也會受到其他憲法各權的制衡某一個措施他做的到底是在法制上可不可以站得住腳那應不應該負什麼樣的責任我想有很多的機制可以來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
31389.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
31406.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
那這個問題一直是這幾年來我們執政黨跟民意之間不管就是大家對這個問題都很多很多的關注因為牽涉到很多人的利益那這個財產當然也有人提到說政府稅收很高啊為什麼不能處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
31407.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
31421.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
那這些意見到底是不是我們只看到一個角度沒有看到整個這個全貌那有沒有一個比較公正的單位可以提出一個適當的建議我想這個我們是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
31422.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
31439.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
有機會去考試院的話可以再思考看看找跟同仁一起來努力看看是不是可以有一個比較社會大眾可以接受的一個處理方式那國家的財政也可以處理這個事情院長您剛才提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
31442.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
31469.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
提到國家的財政所以剛才本席在脈絡上跟您這邊交代的就是那早先是因為每一年要再支付公教人員的這一些幾百億的這個錢嘛那但是現在每一年政府包括今年那台電的撥補在明年就又多了一千億這個錢基本上都比公教人員原先承諾的這個錢還要多那如果以國家財政這樣來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
31470.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
31486.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
那您覺得如果我們這樣子比較不管合不合理那這個幾百億相較於這個千億那國家財政的支配如果又這麼的不精確那一段一段時間是不是都會影響到人民的權益您看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
31487.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
31514.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
我想這個國家財政的分配問題牽涉到很真的是專業了我等到這裡我想我還是只能夠尊重專業的看法但是這個專業的看法會影響到某一些特定人的權益而且這些人是過去相信國家的承諾也簽訂了所謂的您說的所謂任用的契約那這件事情還受及既往您覺得這樣子的事情合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
31516.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
31538.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
從結果來看當然很多人會覺得不合理當然只是說你還有沒有更好的選擇這個部分是國家說要改那如果改了在當時可以有一個共識那大家從那個起始點再往後走好國家產生有問題或是大家必須要共體時間那那個時候進來的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
31538.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
31565.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
那你有一些選擇你知道未來國家跟國家的財政會往這個方向走但是原先在國家非常艱鉅的情況下所簽訂這樣子一個契約的被任用的人員那難道你們這樣子回溯這個這樣子合理嗎難道所有的東西在我們發現有問題的時候討論了之後呢就可以往前回溯在法理上你覺得這樣子合理合法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
31566.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
31582.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
我覺得這是可以再討論如果我是當事人那我當然覺得我的權益受損這是不合理的聽起來就好像有點國家的這個利率就像那個銀行的利率是浮動利率一樣這很奇怪的概念我不知道您 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
31583.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
31607.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
有沒有這樣的感覺或這樣的看法那我是覺得說一個事情我剛強調的不能只從一個角度來看可能必須要全面來是那就看誰的視角嘛誰的視角如果您有機會進入到考試院您的視角還是如同國家想像財政或者是碰到了問題或困難然後就找相對沒有權利的人開刀我想這不會是一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
31608.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
31637.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
很公義的事情尤其您在自傳裡面希望能夠維持社會公平公正公義我們很期待假設您有這個機會那這個視角不應該是具有權利的人的視角而是應該從一個公平公義的視角上來看待這件事情而且很重要的是所有的東西你這樣子一刀斬斷然後往前回溯本席認為是不合理應該也更不合法 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
31639.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
31660.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
我想這個事情是可以再繼續檢討了那如果說有一個做法是可以保障到所有退休公教人員然後又可以兼顧財政的我想政府應該很樂意提出來那到底有沒有這個辦法我覺得真的需要我們這個朝野一起來努力看看有沒有一個出路 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
31662.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
31685.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
因為在公務人員退休之前撫恤法裡面有提到四年要檢討一次本席是覺得第一它不足以解決藍莓之急第二時間上會不會有一點長尤其是現在的社會走得比較快您對於四年檢討一次是不是覺得應該再做一些調整它或許可以讓新的 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
31686.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
31702.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
優秀的人員在一些調整下能夠在有一些誘因進入政府單位那因為最近整個的氛圍也不是太好您的看法呢?如果在這個時間上可以再做一些調整來吸引更好的這個優秀的人員進入公部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
31703.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
31716.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
如果您提的4年檢討一次是指退休的給付那它是除了4年檢討一次之外還有就是說如果CP值變動增減到5%的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
31725.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
31734.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
這目前的一個講法所以據我了解已經有一次是因為四年的關係條那還有一次是因為雖然還不到四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
31735.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
31735.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
31756.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
31776.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
在修正的話我想應該可以再討論看看是不是還可以再精進再做怎麼樣的修正那至少我從其他的管道得出來是當初他們這樣設計其實都有其實都兼顧到有一些配套的一些措施所以你如果有機會進去的話你覺得這個時間上有機會做一個調整嗎還是你認為目前應該這個機制就可以應應了呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
31785.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
31800.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
目前是有發揮調整的作用那能不能再加速的話如同我剛才講的我的瞭解是他為什麼這樣訂其實有一些配套可能有參考其他的一些配套措施或是其他的一些機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
31802.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
31825.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
那我不曉得他是不是可以例如說你百分之五不夠你百分之三就要再增加那如果再增加的話這樣是不是我覺得當然以領取者的角度來講會這樣很好啊可是就說這個前提反而動前身啊如果說這樣對於財政政府是不是可以財力可不可以支應我想這個都可以再進一步討論來看看 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
31826.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
31850.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
本席在這邊提醒很重要的一個重點是那跟人民的約定事實上不應該因為國家本身所做的錯誤的政策或決定或方式而擠壓到人民的好 謝謝林倩琦委員的詢問也謝謝柯院長的被詢答 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
31858.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
31884.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
接下來登記第6號邱益穎委員之詢問以書面提出列入記錄刊登公報再接下來請登記第7號張家俊委員詢問主席我想請這個柯貝提名人麻煩再請貝提名人柯院長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
31888.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
31904.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
被提名人好本席攤開考試院委員人事名單您是名單內資歷可以說是非常特別的一位候選人您過去擔任檢察官也擔任過司法官學院的院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
31906.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
31921.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
這個人事案通過了您就是史上第一位轉任考委的檢察官要怎麼把自己在法律上面的專才發揮在考試院的職務上我想要請問一下您對自己的期許是什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
31924.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
31947.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
我希望法律人的經驗就是法律人其實最擅長的分析做判斷當然轉換一個跑道很多事項是我必須再重新學習的可是我想以我之前的對每個事情投入的程度我想我應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
31947.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
31976.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
可以在短時間之內盡快的熟悉考試院的這個業務然後運用我的法律人的訓練那希望能夠在考試院的各項業務的推動上不管從法制上或者是有這個這個有些制度怎麼設計考選怎麼設計等等我可以根據我的歷練跟經驗來提供一些這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
31977.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
32003.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
那本席願意把大部分的時間讓您去說﹐去闡述您對考試院的願景是因為其實考試院作為五權憲法架構中的一環近年來常常都被質疑說存在的必要性所以本席也想要請問一下就是說目前社會各界多認為考試院與人事行政總署的職責重疊不僅降低了 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
32003.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
32031.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
行政效率甚至增加國家的治理成本那對此您是否支持廢除考試院呢這個議題一直有人討論那我覺得要不要廢除其實我們這個都尊重我其實也沒有既定的立場如果大家認為說考試院該廢除那其實我也沒有什麼我是開放的承諾可以請教一下您個人的立場嗎您覺得考試院存在的必要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
32033.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
32045.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
因為我現在還沒有過去所以我不曉得說現在考試院有沒有因為不能夠發揮憲法上的功能所以沒有存在的價值 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
32047.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
32069.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
那當然現在很多人會提到說例如說他的這個他是不是跟人種那邊是不是有重疊那據我的了解是其實是有功能大家是從不同的角度來處理那當然是可以透過這個行政協調加強行政協調來 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
32070.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
32091.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
拉近彼此之間的合作來協力推動政府的人事事項那考試...那您瞭解...您瞭解賴總統對考試院廢除的態度嗎?我至少沒有聽到他跟我...那我放一段影片給您看一下好不好?在二黨院,責任修憲委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
32098.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
32120.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
來推動包括18歲公民權或者是建立三權的憲政制體制把監察院跟考試院給你廢除是不是很明白的就告訴你說其實我們賴總統的心裡他是希望廢除考試院的那不曉得您是否支持賴總統的說法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
32123.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
32150.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
我想我個人沒有立場可以說支持或不支持我只能說我們尊重大院的決定如果是大家有共識認為考試院他所當初設計所要達到的這個獨立行使權力的這個功能沒辦法達到那回到三權分立的這種狀況就好那要用修憲的程度程序來處理那我們當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
32151.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
32173.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
尊重大家的這個這個認定的一個結果那我也想請問一下被提名人既然廢除考試院是賴總統的這個目標跟理想那您是否有思考過說未來要推動廢除考試院原本考試院負責的國家考試包括選區部相關的職務要何去何從呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
32175.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
32204.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
如果真的有那一天的話那我想我們公務員包括在公務機關那當然當考試員他是政務人員他是廣義的公務員不過你在一個位置就是當一天和尚就要撞一天鐘在哪一個職位上都要盡力那如果真的大院經過修憲的程序那全民有共識那也修憲來這樣處理的話那當然我們在轉換的過程當中我們都要盡力來促成 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
32206.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
32224.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
我問的問題除了您的想法之外我也想知道說您有想過說這些相關的職務要何去何從呢是要像學美國人事管理局然後轉至人事行政總處或者是我們要學日本他從2014年開始成立這個內閣人事局 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
32225.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
32239.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
那在處理這個國家公務人員的招募那或者是我們要由像學德國一樣就是各級政府自行辦理喔你有想過說這一些方向你比較贊成哪一個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
32240.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
32258.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
我其實我覺得是要再仔細思考所以今天來之前你都沒有思考過我現在在瞭解的過程當中大概也只是籠統的知道外國什麼樣的法制那將來你個人有沒有比較prefer哪一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
32259.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
32280.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
說實在我現在還沒有看到所有的這些各種資料我覺得我還需要跟將來如果說有機會到那邊我還需要跟我的同仁們來進一步了解其實本席是希望說以您的專業您在社會上算是一個高知識分子而且是很多人景仰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
32281.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
32300.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
一個對象那我們也希望說你能夠更有主見更有主見而不是你去到考試院聽考試院內部的人告訴你該怎麼做就怎麼做我當然不是認為說是考試院而是說我們就是因為我們的不能夠太根據主見你一個法律人應該是很客觀的 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
32301.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
32321.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
就是也很希望知道你本身的看法這樣我們來行使同意權才知道說我們支持的或我們不支持的人他想的是什麼我們也希望說我本席希望說你可以更正面積極的表達出自己的想法那這樣我們的人民才會透過今天的質詢更認識你更認識您到考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
32325.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
32343.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
之後要扮演什麼角色?然後您有什麼樣想要落實的方向?所以可不可以稍微做具體一點的回答我現在的重點當然都是放在說萬一如果真的得到大院的支持可以到考試院的話我怎麼樣把考試院的職責做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
32344.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
32373.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
所以說坦白目前我沒有去議期說聽起來我要去議期這個考試院要去這個被廢除之後我要做什麼樣的處理還沒有考慮到第二個問題好了本席認為這個文官體系的穩定很容易因為這個權責的分配而受影響所以本席想要問這個被提名人可以想一想說如果假設這個廢除計劃啟動您在過渡期間要怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
32374.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
32400.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
能夠協助銜接然後又怎麼樣能夠確保文官制度的公平性不受損害呢抱歉你剛才說的是什麼廢除就是說如果假設考試院廢除的話您擔任考試委員那您扮演的角色就非常重要啦因為你必須要能夠讓他可以銜接啊那你們想過說這個銜接的過渡期你有什麼樣子的想法跟具體的做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
32402.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
32406.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
說實在我還沒有想到廢除之後我要怎麼寫這個問題其實這個部分我想根據考試院多項的公開報告顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
32418.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
32441.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
政策透明度與民眾參與度明顯的不足那很多網友戲稱考試院是養老院可以解釋一下如何要回應外界說這個效率與功能定位的批評呢據我了解從上屆的考試院開始其實他們也很積極的在建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
32442.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
32448.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
32464.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
32488.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
任務很多啦要積極的跟很多的單位包括學校還有用人機關去了解他們的問題然後再帶回來看院裡頭這邊可以做怎麼樣的調整所以並不是只是單純的坐在辦公室所以您理解說您的責任是很重大的假設您被同意之後呢其實也扮演著說要怎麼樣加速推進 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
32489.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
32513.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
考試院的改革之外要建立更完善的施政績效公開的機制特別是在國家考試數位化跟這個政策執行效率方面是不是你已經理解到這個你扮演的角色絕對不是輕鬆的角色當然當然是很艱鉅而且我們現在只有七位七位考試委員所以責任會更重 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
32514.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
32542.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
那接下來本席想要接著問妳有關於公務人員的退府條例您也是公務人員出身我相信您也認識非常多的司法官、檢察官本席要向您請教民國107年的時候通過公務人員年金改革法案您贊同嗎我對大院通過的法律我都尊重那您認識的公務人員的意見是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
32545.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
32570.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
就是有關於退休金的業務就是考試院選區部主管我想要知道您具體的態度您是支持還是不支持我想我們尊重政府因為這畢竟是經過也是經過法律所以你沒有個人意見你身邊的人都沒有告訴過你身邊的人都沒有告訴過你說他們對於這個年金改革之後的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
32572.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
32595.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
我們做招當然各式各樣的朋友都有那當然有支持的有反對的那是支持的比較多還是反對的比較多呢沒有仔細去比較過當時這個公務人員改革的過程吵得非常的兇那您是法律背景出身應該很了解這個改革其實違反了信賴保護原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
32596.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
32622.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
然後包括不應該溯及既往那公務人員會那麼生氣不就是因為國家帶頭違反信賴保護原則嗎這個您同意嗎我想到底是不是在法律解釋上是這樣的可以這樣解釋我想這個以法論法我覺得還是要有這個憲法法案那以法論法的話這個是不是有違反信賴保護原則呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
32622.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
32651.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
我覺得法律上在判斷常常有就有沒有就沒有法律上沒有那麼容易我覺得法律上在做一個判斷需要很多這個佐證的一些資訊基本上那麼多人擔任這個公務人員效力於國家就是希望有一個穩定的工作然後退休也有國家的照顧您身為這個法律出身的背景也當過公務人員你可以接受國家違反信賴保護原則漠視公務人員的奉獻嗎你接受嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
32653.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
32671.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
我想我尊重國家的政府的改革所以你的意思就是說就算國家做的是錯的甚至你擔任考試委員如果受到的指示是違反你的專業的你也會默默的執行嗎如果將來有違反我專業的我當然在我的職長內我會努力去堅持 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
32674.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
32693.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
其實當年這個年金改革考試院的委員周玉珊、周志龍、何季篷都認為過於激烈他們也是勇於發表他們的意見我本席不知道為什麼說您會不願意去表達您到底是支持還是不支持總是您應該心中有定見的吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
32694.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
32717.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
我想應該是藉由法律人的信念吧我們法律人習慣是我資訊夠了我才做這架所以您到目前為止實施了這麼多年您周邊的這麼多的公務人員你都沒有第一線感受到他們的想法嗎你也認為說全區部以35年年資作為所得替代率的基準點逐年往下降不夠極端嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
32720.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
32745.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
已經在領取的人來講他們當然會不高興這是可以理解不過您知道說退休的公務人員都成為均貧族嗎有三分之一的公務人員在這個改革之下成了貧困老人您身邊難道都沒有這樣子的公務人員嗎我覺得就是我需要具體的數據能夠感同身受具體的數據我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
32749.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
32754.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
改革已經6年了這個主計總數民國113年發布的高齡家庭消費物價指數顯示民國112年高齡家庭的CPI年長2.8%叫全體的CPI |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
32766.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
32792.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
就是年增2.5%高出0.3個百分點意味著高齡退休的家庭承受比一般家庭更高的通膨壓力那我想請教被提名人你身邊應該有很多受影響的退休公務人員嗎沒有嗎你都沒有辦法感同身受嗎當然是有是吧那能夠感受一下有感受到他們的痛苦嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
32793.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
32811.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
我想這一方面因為這個可能要從具體的數據上來看來統計說現在大部分的退休人員他到底一個月是領多少那年金跟有年金改革之前他少領了多少少領了多少對 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
32814.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
32839.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
目前當時民進黨粗暴的版本就是所得替代率的部分每年是降1.5%然後最終會比原本下降15個百分點我想你如果要擔任考試委員這個部分你可能要比本席更清楚才對但至今所得替代率的部分已經從原本107年開始通過之後下降了6% |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
32841.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
32868.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
那本席有提一個版本就是停在現在的6%不要再降下去了所以就說我們不走回頭路我們也沒有要再說集計網說改回本來但是從現在開始剛好他走到一半我們也應該停看停是不是就從這裡開始不要再調降所得替代率因為呢我不曉得您有沒有收到今年的這個電費單您有沒有感覺到電費變貴了有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
32872.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
32890.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
因為電費變貴了油費變貴了所以萬物起漲這些退休的公務人員情何以堪要怎麼面對我也很希望說本席也很希望說您擔任考試委員您要很清楚這些人的痛苦是當然那 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
32892.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
32919.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
委員剛才建議的就是是不是就停止這個降低這個替代率那個牽涉到據我了解是牽涉到一個很複雜的一個精算的制度那聽起來當然是很多人會覺得這樣很好啊就不要再降了可是它背後所帶來的這個對基金的影響我覺得是需要這個再去進一步再去精算的看是不是可行 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
32920.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
32941.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
本席聽起來好像你從頭到尾都沒有任何的想法是想說進去之後就要隨波逐流是這樣子嗎我想我們到如果有機會去考試院服務那看在那個職長之上我掌握的資訊是什麼那當然還是你覺得只要攀附上衣就可以了本的法律人的正義據理力爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
32942.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
32962.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
距離力爭嗎所以你會為了停止降低所得替代率距離力爭這是你給本席的答案嗎我說我會依照當時分析的結果然後依照我們就是大家那個資料可以顯示的可行之道我們來距離力爭所以到目前為止那如果假設這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
32965.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
32986.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
賴總統給你指示說你不能夠支持那你就是不支持嘛你是有自己主見還是你是要聽上意的我覺得有自己的主見可是我這個主見就是將來在我職務上我該怎麼樣就怎麼樣因為呢您身為這個賴總統所提名的考試委員您知道賴總統對年改的態度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
32987.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
33010.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
您可能也不知道吧就是在2019年民進黨總統初選的時候他就有說如果有機會擔任總統年金改革微調是可以延逸的方向那此時就是一個最好的修法時刻他已經如願擔任總統了那這樣子的話假設是要賴總統支持你才支持嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
33011.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
33035.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
我想應該是他講微調那現在的機制現在的法律其實已經有微調的機制就是我們幾位被提名也在講的就是那個四年檢討一次或者是CPI我們現在主張的是要停止降低所得替代率我只問你這個問題說您支持停止降低所得替代率嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
33035.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
33064.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
我覺得這個需要聽專家的意見那最後呢其實時間不多啦警察跟消防人員是保障國家安全的關鍵但是他們長期面臨人力不足跟這個工作量過大的這個問題喔那目前警消基層的缺額已經來到4488人了那壓力也越來越大那很多人認為說我們應該學習歐美國家成立這個警消工會您支持這樣子的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
33068.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
33085.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
團體我們當然是可以支持只是他用什麼名稱所以您是支持錦囂成立公會的成立一個團體那這個團體到底要叫什麼名稱我想依照每一個國家其實他的法制有點不一樣所以你也支持他們成立公會來保障他們的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
33086.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
33089.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
謝謝張家俊委的詢問也謝謝我們被提名人柯麗鈴院長您的詢答請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
33113.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
33141.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
報告全院委員會我們針對考試委員被提名人柯麗鈴院長尋答部分到此為止我們再次感謝被提名人柯院長的練習答詢12月6號星期五下午兩點半我們繼續開會審查考試院考試委員被提名人黃東益先生、伊萬納威女士資格之相關事宜現在休息辛苦 |
| IVOD_ID |
16331 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16331 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-03 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-03T08:30:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-03T17:42:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |