| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685ff4632c590446426ad9f551ce5fa921fa82e37f9ba35fd77cd28c62fd96d6a4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-12-02T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：繼續審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
19125 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 13:49:00 |
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出席委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
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2210.325 |
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立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．時間113年10月24日星期四,9時至14時39分,地點群賢樓801會議室,出席委員陳委員昭姿等28人,列席委員賴委員會員等22人, |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2227.637 |
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2231.54 |
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列席官員、行政院內政衛福勞動處處長蘇永富、勞動部部長何佩珊、衛生福利部政務次長呂建德等相關人員、主席蘇召集委員清泉、討論事項、審查委員吳春城等42人擬具 |
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2246.191 |
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2265.627 |
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本次會議經委員吳春城說明提案指去,由勞動部部長何佩珊說明後,委員陳昭芝等28人提出質詢,均經勞動部部長何佩珊、國家發展委員會副主任委員彭麗佩、經濟部常務次長連錦章、衛生福利部政務次長呂建德、金融監督管理委員會法律事務處處長林志憲、行政院內政衛福勞動處處長蘇永富、 |
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2270.991 |
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2289.213 |
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數位發展部數位產業署副署長陳惠敏、教育部中生教育司司長梁學正及文化部綜合規劃司副司長陳怡靜及各相關主管等及習達富、委員盧憲一、張家俊、陳超明、林益君、邱義營、邱志偉及謝一鳳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報 |
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2290.114 |
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2291.555 |
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請問委員會,上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處 |
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2321.035 |
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2328.384 |
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沒有,那我們議事錄確定那本日的會議的議程為繼續審查委員吳春城等42人擬具《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》 |
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2336.82 |
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2353.075 |
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那這裡我跟大家報告一下,這個法本身是經過三個黨都有委員連署,非常踴躍那第二個這一段時間一直在溝通,那也修正了,我們把條文從22條改成為13條 |
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2358.533 |
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2382.15 |
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第3個所有的要求權力的部分全部刪掉了第4個就是大家也都有默契原則上我們今天主條然後我們出委員會然後政黨協商政黨協商然後再交大院會那原則上我們行政院可能會再提一個版本在政黨協商的時候一起來審查 |
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2384.073 |
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2403.742 |
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好,我們現在介紹現場的委員及列席官員第一個陳慶威委員廖惟祥委員王一鳴委員張祺凱委員 |
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2411.244 |
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2431.409 |
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今天的苦主吳春城委員如主苦主都可以黃國昌委員跑掉了好那我們現在介紹列席的行政官員第一個行政院內政衛福勞動處蘇勇副處長勞動部常務次長陳明仁 |
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2439.073 |
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2466.298 |
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好 謝謝勞動力發展署代理署長陳世昌勞動福祉退休司副司長陳慧榮勞動條件及就業平等司副司長王金榮我們勞動部大家加油這一陣子大家辛苦了衛生福利部政府司長呂健德 |
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2470.47 |
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2486.839 |
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社會及家庭署組長 呂育穎心理健康師專門委員 洪家基口腔健康師檢證記者 陳少卿長期照顧師專門委員 王林宇 |
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2498.226 |
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2526.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
護理及健康照護師科長蔡明翰國健署研究員黃巧文中央健康保險署參議員黃佩珊中央健康保險署衛務部現在正在風暴當中大家也辛苦了經濟部產業發展署署長楊志欽 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2530.861 |
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2539.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
商業發展署副組長熊立恆中小及新創企業署專門委員王思文國際貿易署科長鄭惠琳 |
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2550.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2574.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
產業技術師科長何彥慶金融監督管理委員會法律事務處處長林志憲教育部終身教育師副司長嚴寶月高等教育師專門委員郭嘉英技術及職業教育師專門委員陳育君 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2580.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2604.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
文化部中俄規劃師副司長陳怡靜社會發展部社會發展署副署長陳惠敏社會政府司科長林菊穗國家發展委員會社會發展處處長張富林 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2609.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2624.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
人力發展處專門委員柔玉梅國家科學及技術委員會生命科學研究發展處副處長涂鈞宇農業部農民輔導師副處長陳怡仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2633.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2646.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
農村發展及水土保持署科長羅光節交通部觀光署副署長周庭章公共運輸及監理師檢證記者王濟周你要寫什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2663.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2667.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好 我們現在賴樂隆委員他要先詢問這是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2676.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2705.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
主席啦 各位我先進行會議詢問啦謝謝啦 會議詢問的這個是最優先的啦我想問一下啦 因為今天大概也可能看主席或請主秘回答一下今天其實立法院有在進行大法官的全院委員會啦那其實也在進行那樣程序那其實各個委員會其實都沒有開我可以請教一下主席跟主秘啦在這個程序上面今天來召開這樣的會議程序上有沒有問題那另外是他會不會影響到大家委員們的權益這是請主席跟主秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2706.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2715.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
答覆一下好不好因為其他委員會都沒有開啦那今天好像獨獨只有衛房跟經濟來聯席是不是請主秘回答或者請這個主席會議詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2728.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2747.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
根據過去的案例,在前院委員會的時候還是有各個委員會在召開,那我們有在上禮拜也詢問了,詢問了我們院本部這邊還有詢問說可以不可以排,回答是可以,所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2748.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2759.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
法律上是OK但是有說沒有讓委員可以暢所欲言這可能會有一點影響以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2769.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2793.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我再跟賴委員報告一下剛剛我有報告過就是說今天如果出委員會的話我們是會送政黨協商那我們各個黨還三個黨還要在政黨協商當然我不排除我們行政院會補送資料補送版本然後在政黨協商就一併討論我們不會直接送大院會在這裡跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2796.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2805.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄及刊登公報現在宣讀提案條文內容還有修正動議請一併宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2808.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2818.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
委員吳春城等42人擬具《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》案。第一條,為促使國家政策制定與產業發展能因應人口變遷所生的新社會與市場結構,翻轉銀髮海嘯轉為國家發展動力,降低年輕世代負擔,實現世代經濟循環目標,維護壯世代人權與尊嚴,創造跨鄰共榮,韌性永續之目標,特制定本法。第二條,本法用詞定義如下,一,壯世代,指55歲以上之國民,二,壯世代政策, |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2838.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2846.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
指促進社會與個人重新認知高齡者實為高壽者並協助壯世代持續成為生產者、消費者提升壯世代於各領域生活品質並降低社會福利負擔之政策方針及計劃。三、壯世代產業指活化壯世代資產、發展長壽經濟協助壯世代持續成為生產者、消費者之各行業所為技術、產品、服務、知識或措施之開發、生產、使用、銷售、投資等經濟行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2865.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2893.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
4.壯世代就業,指消除社會與個人對壯世代之就業歧視,並以壯世代具工作能力及就業意願者為對象,協助續留職場或再回職場之勞動行為。第3條,行政院應設壯世代政策辦公室統籌整合各目的事業主管機關設壯世代之權責,共同推動壯世代政策。壯世代政策辦公室設置召集人一人由行政院院長兼任,委員若干人由行政院院長就政務委員,有關機關首長, |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2895.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2913.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
據壯世代發展經驗之專家學者及壯世代民間代表派遣或聘兼之,壯世代政策辦公室每年應制定國家年度壯世代政策與產業發展計畫,並審核計畫目標、預算及成效。壯世代政策辦公室推動之壯世代政策事務應包含但不限於壯世代經濟發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2914.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2927.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
金融、生態系、科技發展、學術及產業研究、就業環境、健康生活與環境、教育體制、數位落差彌平、消費、文化、行促等政策面向。政府應積極推動、輔助壯世代產業之發展,並結合財稅及金融制度、土地及建築物活用。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2934.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2950.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
及建物活用提供壯世代產業發展政策培植新創及產業鏈促成長壽經濟之發展。第5條政府應建立超高齡社會金融行動方案與指標提供相關金融商品或投資鼓勵措施建構壯世代金融生態系 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2950.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2969.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
同時積極提供壯世代普及公正的金融教育,強化金融勢能,促進財富公平與安全。政府應促成公司部門與學術機構合作,增進壯世代研究資源應用,並成立或指定壯世代生活需求長期性、應用性、基礎性之調查研究專責單位。 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2971.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2979.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第7條政府應積極推動壯世代就業建立合宜媒合執培訓機制在尊重及反歧視原則下創造壯世代適性就業環境並積極推動彈性工作高齡友善職場指標與退休準備第8條政府應從預防老化觀點 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2988.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3000.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
藉醫療投資、增進智慧精準醫療以維護壯世代身心健康,並就預防保健、心理衛生、醫療復健與連續性照護之規劃,推動及監督等事項保障壯世代權益。政府應與大學合作,整合相關教學資源、培訓機構或團體,協助建立以行速良好環境、宣傳推廣原夢及滿足第三人生需求之理念, |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3014.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3042.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
普及終身學習之目的壯世代教育。第10條政府應協助壯世代積極參與數位社會創造數位平權環境以使壯世代智慧資產有效貢獻社會。第11條政府應建立壯世代新形象藉由合一機制尊重維護世代共存共融之新文化並積極建立相關文化產業。第12條政府應推動壯世代觀光發展建立壯世代旅遊行銷品牌媒合在地組織與產業界 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3044.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3050.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
鼓勵壯世代提出或參與觀光旅遊相關提案,促成壯世代產業對優質壯世代旅遊規劃之共識。第13條政府應針對壯世代農民或跨域從農者提升農業技術及農業經營,結合青壯年留農或返農, |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3062.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3065.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
增加農業及農村經濟產值,並建立壯世代農民與在地親農交流及服務平台機制,促進農村再生與農業永續發展。第14條鼓勵壯世代參與地方創生,透過媒合機制建立壯世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3079.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3091.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
在地團體創新組織合作提供技術及知識等投入地方創新事業創造地方共好發展第15條政府應建立壯世代國家資料庫並每年統計並公布健康預期壽命前項之壯世代國家資料庫應建立資訊系統及共享平台會診公司部門及學術機構之資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3100.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3114.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
善加運用,以促進壯世代政策產業就業之研究與法規嚴定。第16條各級政府應以首長或其指定之人為召集人,邀集相關學者、專家、民間機構、團體代表及壯世代族群代表,並其召開會議或論壇、協調、諮詢、審議及規劃推動與其主管業務相關之壯世代政策。 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3122.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3148.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
各級政府應鼓勵企業及社會團體善盡社會責任,共同推動壯世代政策。第17條政府應寬列壯世代事務預算,採取必要措施,合理分配及運用,確保經費符合政策所需。政府應依實際需要合理分配,益助資源補助表彰相關學術機構、產業界、民間團體與個人等,共同推動壯世代政策及措施。 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3149.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3167.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
中央政府得設立壯世代發展基金,辦理壯世代政策發展相關事項。第18條,政府應以本法施行後一年內發布國家壯世代人口政策白皮書,並每四年依其績效及國內外情勢發展定期檢討修正之。各級政府應配合國家壯世代人口政策白皮書, |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3168.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3192.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
檢討所主管之政策與行政措施,又不符其規定者,應定定修正其相關政策及行政措施,並推動執行。第19條,各級政府應因應壯世代事務需求充實相關人力,並建立人員專業資格制度,辦理人員教育訓練提升工作品質。中央壯世代專責機關及各目的事業主管機關得依壯世代事務之需要,建立其專業人員之資格, |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3194.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3220.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
認證登錄訓練及督導管理制度。第二十條本法施行後兩年內,各級政府應依本法之規定檢討所主管之法規,有不符合本法規定者,應制、訂定、修正或廢止相關法規。前項法規制、訂定、修正或廢止前,由行政院會同中央目的事業主管機關依本法規定解釋適用之。第二十一條本法自公佈日施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3222.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3243.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
繼續宣讀修正動議第一案第4條第二項前項之財稅及金融制度政府應提供相關金融商品或投資鼓勵措施建構壯世代金融生態系同時積極提供壯世代普及公正的金融教育強化金融世人促進財富公平與安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3244.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3264.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
政府應基於第一項之壯世代產業發展,積極推動壯世代就業,建立合營媒合及培訓機制,在尊重及反歧視原則下,創造壯世代適性就業環境,並積極推動彈性工作,高齡友善職場指標與退休準備。第5條刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3267.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3281.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
第5條第2項修正為前項之研究專責單位因建立《壯世代國家資料庫及資訊系統共享平台》促成公司部門及學術機構之合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3282.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3297.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
以促進壯世代政策產業就業之研究與法規嚴定第7條刪除第6條修正為政府應從壯世代作為國家發展動力之觀點藉醫療投資增進智慧 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3299.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3314.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
精準醫療以維護壯世代身心健康並就涉及壯世代政策之預防、保健、心理衛生、醫療、復健與連續性照護進行規劃、推動及監督等事項。第7條第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3316.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3337.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
政府應建立壯世代新形象,藉由合一機制尊重,創造數位平權環境,維護世代共存共榮之新文化,並積極建立相關文化產業及智慧資產。第二項第二句修正為政府應基於世代共存共榮之新文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3339.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3348.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
第10條刪除、第11條刪除、第8條、第2項修正為針列前項之在地組織與產業為農業相關者政府應針對壯世代農民或跨域從農者提升農業技術及農業經營 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3358.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3372.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
結合青鑽聯、流農或返農,增加農業及農村經濟產值,並建立鑽世代農民與在地青農交流及服務平台機制,促進農村再生與農業永續發展。 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3375.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3398.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
第一項之在地組織與產業為地方創生相關者,鼓勵壯世代參與地方創生,透過媒合機制建立壯世代與在地團體創生組織合作,提供技術及知識等投入地方創生事業,創造地方共好發展。第13條刪除,第14條刪除。 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3401.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3426.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
第15條刪除提案人委員蘇清泉、楊瓊英、張祺凱、陳昭芝、徒權吉、陳金輝、吳春城、傅坤祺第二案第一條實現世代經濟循環目標修正為實現世代資源共享目標提案人委員陳金輝、連署人廖偉祥、蘇清泉宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3436.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3451.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我們現在進行《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》主條審查。每條條文先請行政單位說明,接著請委員表示意見。我們請法案的名稱開始討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3461.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3483.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我先問一下好不好 因為其實從名稱開始到前面幾個條文其實一直都會牽扯到壯世代這件事情那我第一個想要詢問的請問包括看提案委員或是請問行政機關都可以一起說明就是壯世代什麼樣認定是壯世代那現在我看他的定義在第二條寫的是55歲以上的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3483.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3511.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那如果照這樣的定義的話,他有可能到,我們現在都希望讓大家開心吃百日,有的人吃到百日也叫壯世代嗎?100歲也是壯世代,110歲也叫壯世代,120也叫壯世代就是說這個部分的定義的部分,是不是請包括提案員或者提案行政機關能不能也提出一些說明好不好?第二個我想請教的是,看起來很多都是一些比較宣示性或者原則性,應該怎麼樣應該怎麼樣應該怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3513.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3538.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
但是他又在最後面又提到政府在兩年內要依相關的規定來檢討所有的法規不符本法規的命令要來修訂或廢止那其實我並不是那麼了解因為看起來裡面都是鼓勵性質或者是這個宣誓性質的那有哪一個會特定去違反到相關的法規我是不是也請教一下行政部門的意見好不好這兩個問題請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3543.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3562.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我先補充介紹我們到場的委員黃秀安召委林業勤委員王振旭委員邱盈瑩委員賴樂榮委員請行政官員先報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3577.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3594.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
主席以及各位委員 大家早安我在這邊我想先做兩點說明 誠如剛剛賴慧蓉所說的我想現在目前就整個這一個定義上來說這一個出現三個問題第一個就是您剛剛所說的年齡上的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3596.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3613.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
國際就整個聯合國對於所謂高齡者是65歲這是國際International Standard第二個就整個所謂中高齡國際勞工組織的明確定義就是45所以45跟65這是全世界International的那現在有一個所謂的55這個50或55這個恐怕在國際到目前為止恐怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3618.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3618.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3644.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3669.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
在這裡面其實內容很多事實上是屬於遜色性而且草案的對象太過廣泛條文都是原則性跟概念性的描述對於受規範的民眾難以由條文來理解具體的內容第三點剛剛委員及有提到其實在這裡面我們一般來說呢其實立法體力恐怕也有問題因為它的內容涵蓋了基本法、作用法以及組織法 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3671.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3693.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
與基本法不涵蓋行政作用條文以及行政作用法不訂定行政組織這一立法原則基本上都通例不符而且最重要的其實事實上我們的任何的法律制定其實事實上牽涉到民眾的他的整個權利義務相關的規定那你一個不確定的一個法律概念我想可能確實是會有問題而且同時最重要的我們現在目前行政院其實已經有高齡社會白皮書 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3694.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3695.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
長東部要不要補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3721.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3742.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
主席各位委員大家早有關於剛才賴委員所垂詢的事項衛福部正式已經做相關的說明了就勞動部夜館的部分我們其實是比較關切的是中高齡高齡者的就業促進我們在勞動部這邊夜館的部分有一個專法在推動當中那它對於中高齡和高齡者有一些明確的定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3743.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3772.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
中高齡者就是45歲以上到65歲中間高齡者就是65歲以上我們對於中高齡者或高齡者在就業促進方面我們大概都有些相應的支持和步驟方法在進行依照法令的規定在進行當中至於剛才所講到的壯世代各方面的意見之前公聽會大家有一些充分的討論學業專家有一些意見我們都儘表尊重謝謝好 謝謝次長 吳委員你要不要補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3780.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3785.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
謝謝各位出席的委員還有我們行政部各部會的出席 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3789.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3814.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
對於這一個今天是歷史性的一刻再過29天臺灣就進入超高齡社會了未來50年臺灣將減少近900萬人口整個的社會結構從以青少年青年為主的金字塔社會快速的轉向以高齡者為主的到金字塔型的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3816.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3834.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那過去50年臺灣快速的增加900萬人口我們習慣人口大紅利的時代但是到了2028年人口紅利就不見了所以這是一場天翻地覆的大革命如果我們今天還在爭辯舊思維未來我們必須為歷史負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3837.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3866.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
那關於名稱的問題關於名稱的問題這個要應付這個天翻地覆的社會結構我們現在都是從科技的技術創新高齡科技想要來解決這個問題卻沒有從文化、思想、制度、法規的創新來翻轉這龐大的高齡者這高齡者現在臥床平均8年所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3868.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3893.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
現在可以看的目前所用的措施是無法去阻擋這場所謂的引發大海嘯所以為什麼要稱為壯世代因為它的本質就是一場社會運動社會運動的第一件事就叫做證明你要給它一個正確的身份、正確的名稱所以目前我們稱高齡者 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3894.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3921.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
不外乎是老人、銀髮族、樂齡族如果大家用大數據去輸入這幾個名詞你可以看出來依附過來的都是負面相關的連結所以我們要不要改變一下對這一群人這造成我們社會嚴重的高齡歧視我們的政策還有產業為什麼都發展不起來這就是人設的錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3922.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3929.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
所有的新的事物都必須賦予新的意義是理所當然之事像AI |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3930.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3957.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
在之前沒有,當他出來的時候,大家排懼他嗎?外送專法以前沒有外送,那外送一出來不是需要一個新名詞來形容他嗎?接避者,接避者之前沒有問題,現在是不是要給他一個接避者的一個名稱呢?共享、經濟,以前沒有這種問題,出來的時候這樣的名詞我們要懷疑他嗎?這都不是新的名詞嗎?長照之前也是一個新的名詞, |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3958.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3972.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
當他出來的時候 大家懷疑他嗎 甚至連新北市 這個也是沒有多久之前才 以前叫台北縣所以呢 現在社會日新月異 所以創造新的名詞 並不足為奇 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3975.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4001.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
特別是根據國發會我們不要一直講說聯合國沒有怎麼樣然後臺灣國際沒有怎麼樣大家真的是不去看國發會所做的資料國發會所顯示的資料裡面臺灣的人口我講一個數據我們現在我們明年進入超高齡社會我們明年進入超高齡社會人口結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4005.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4007.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
人口 拍誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4011.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4030.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
就是人口結構當中我們現在要進入65%這個20%其實在世界各國當中還不算高很多歐洲國家都現在都已經到了25%左右的但是各位到了2070年我們的65歲上將佔人口的46% |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4036.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4059.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
日本那時候才佔35%各位可以想像我們會比日本很老老很多歐美各國到時候還28%我們已經46%了我們走在世界老化最嚴重的我們跟南韓並列為全世界最快速老化的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4060.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4071.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以這個政策當中我們要尾隨國際在後面嗎?我們要領先各國,我們要有新的觀念,我們要有新的倡議以上的意見請大家支持,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4076.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4093.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
主席,如果我們因為討論年紀的定義而一直僵持在目前這個狀態的話,覺得有點,有點,所以我是建議是不是就直接往下走,然後繼續討論? |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4103.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4115.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
陳昭志先生謝謝主席剛剛呂次長在談到這個定義不明、定義不清麻煩呂次長回家做功課在2024年2月17號勞動部自己推動的55Plus壯世代就業促進措施講得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4125.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4141.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
年滿55歲以上以及45歲以上依法退休者為適用對象如果大家要執著在定義的部分那請勞動部回去查自己曾經做的定義然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4144.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4161.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
不要再談年紀了你直接打臉許明春部長嘛理事長你沒有做功課喔請你們現在馬上Google2024年2月17號勞動部推動55Plus壯世代就業促進措施協助壯世代勞工重返職場謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4171.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4191.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
主席各位我還是要再提醒一下因為其實立法院所有的法每個出去都要很嚴謹那我建議因為立出來的法都代表著立法院的品質那我認為前面的部分花一點時間把這些釐清清楚然後也讓官員能夠一起把疫情進來我認為是很值得的那因為從題目到前面幾條幾乎都是一樣的前面這個解決了後面其實很快的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4192.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4209.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我還是要呼應跟提醒的就是說我認為壯世代如果要定義那要想辦法至少要跟國際能夠接軌的上同時間也要想清楚把這個定義定清楚我認為其實是一個高的立法品質讓壯世代因為如果單就現在這個草案上寫55歲以上我覺得還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4211.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4237.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
稍微太寬了一點廣了一點 要再訂得更清楚一點那我看到這個法其實我的感覺主要是為了要協助壯世代的一些就業壯世代的一些產業發展甚至壯世代的一些政策上面等等那我認為相關部門也可以再說得更清楚既有的政策上能不能達到這個目的還是說需要另外訂這個法才能夠達成如果既有的法可以達成的話就不一定要跌床駕屋再來訂出這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4238.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4261.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
那這個部分我覺得待會也可以再請行政部門做更詳細的說明那另外是這個法的部分它叫做促進法但是從看起來它帶有相當高的基本法的味道有些因怎麼作為而且是有一些因的作為同時間這第三條它又帶有組織法的味道有設置辦公室有院長兼任然後有若干人 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4261.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4276.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那這些人要做什麼事情 這個我覺得恐怕都要把它定得更清楚不要產生了跌床駕屋或者產生有些人設定的位置但是他的職務或者他的任務其實並不明確的我覺得反而會造成一些資源的一些配置上的可惜 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4277.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4293.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
另外還有就是在包括第17條的部分裡面有提到了包括寬列壯世代一些事務的預算的經費那當你要去寬列經費的時候恐怕就要更清楚的去訂清楚那到底你要去處理的是什麼事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4294.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4317.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我認為這個部分都應該在委員會內更好好的討論把它定清楚然後再到草椅協商或再到院會去我認為這個立法品質會來得比較高包括裡面甚至有提到17條的第二項有提到政府應該依照實際的合理的分配甚至挹注補助到民間團體等等那這個恐怕都不需要更清楚的界定不然將來 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4319.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4342.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
中央執政誰執政恐怕有很大的空間可以去做這件事情那我認為這個對於國家的整個資源的配置不見得是好事每一黨都可能當執政黨但是有可能這個資源配置上面有可能會有很大的操作空間我認為這個都應該再更嚴謹一點另外他還有一個叫做德設立壯世代的發展基金德設立當然可能設也可能不設但是設了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4343.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4369.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
他要做什麼使用?能夠扮演什麼樣的角色?我認為都應該把他定的再更清楚一點這個才能夠讓整個這個法能夠達到一個好的目的那我還是要再回來強調如果各行政部門本來就可以做的事情那說明清楚那到底要不要立這個法就可以充分的討論那另外如果真的要立一定要把那個範圍跟職責跟權益相關的目的確認清楚才能達到這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4370.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4385.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
我們還是要再次強調這個法會是在第11屆的立委萬一完成了三讀的話會是從這邊出去這都留下歷史紀錄我們希望這個法是一個嚴謹而具有必要性而必備性的一個法律再三的跟委員跟主席們說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4401.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4415.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
主席大家好我想今天討論這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這樣的一個草案我要先問政府單位你們今天是要針對主條 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4417.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4439.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
提出你們的修法意見還是你們是反對所以你們都沒有備案比如說名稱你們覺得應該要修比較好你們若對於壯世代這個年齡55歲有意見那你們到底是贊成和平到中高齡從45歲為起點還是什麼我比較希望是這樣的討論可能才會有實質的成效要不然大家其實是沒有對焦就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4442.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4452.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
剛剛聽了兩位次長看起來是好像沒有贊成這個法所以也沒有準備這個具體的名稱到底要怎麼修那因為其實在委員會已經開過公聽會然後也詢答過今天就是主條我覺得這個基本上大家態度要拿出來如果你們有負案你們對名稱有意見譬如說壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案你們對這個名稱有疑慮你們建議應該要怎麼樣修正或者是你要保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4471.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4475.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
我覺得這樣的一個討論今天才會有進度要不然大家都不對焦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4476.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4477.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
吳春城委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4507.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4529.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這一個高齡化世代的來臨的確觀念是要翻轉所以我個人是很贊成就是應該要用一個發展性的一個觀點我們來看待這樣的法案那我也同意剛剛賴瑞恩委員講的就是說這個法我們可能要有從一個基本法的概念我們是去翻轉各部會應該要做什麼樣的調整應該要進到什麼樣的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4532.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4548.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
的確修法的過程也應該要嚴謹所以我就很納悶今天為什麼沒有法務部的代表修法也應該要嚴謹所有的法律用語定義它可能必須是明確的因為畢竟是立法院產出來的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4549.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4562.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
所以這兩者應該都是要兼顧今天聯合報或是社論都還在指出我們現在面對高齡社會這一些失能的家庭然後居福源不夠的問題這個都是已經到了後端 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4565.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4569.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們開始去處理問題但是這個法案我個人認為如果從一個更前端從一個怎麼樣進入到這樣的一個高齡從前面就讓他可以社會參與我們各項的政策用一個發展性的觀點然後讓我們的高齡人力可以成為我們社會的這個生產力而不會完全是負擔這個的確是我們應該要超前部署我們應該要這樣的思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4590.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4591.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
各部會應該去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4606.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4628.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
吳委員 我想他就不會提出這樣的一個草案 如果都有 那或許待會市長也可以說 比如說你有的是什麼 就講出來就是已經在做的是什麼 因為我覺得今天吳委員提出來這個版本他最大的注意是 他提到各個領域應該做什麼 而且是用一個比較是發展性的觀點來看待我們面臨這個超高齡社會這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4631.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4631.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4649.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4650.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
聶偉強委員請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4674.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4696.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
其實我也是要呼應一下王委員講的其實究竟我們行政部門到底是什麼態度那我想要說的是再從頭來重申有幾個主要的壯世代希望達到的觀點第一個是希望促進社會參與跟經濟貢獻所以這個壯世代法案是在促進中高齡人口的社會參與跟經濟貢獻不僅是要解決一些年金財務的問題還要激發這一代人的潛能讓他們繼續為我們的社會做出貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4702.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4703.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
臺灣即將進入超高齡化的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4732.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4753.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
各自一千多億,比如少子化辦公室一千多億,那這個超高齡的相關的照護偵測也是一千多億,可是究竟成效如何,我想行政部門自己數字都很清楚吧,不然我們之前在勞動部這個常常在答詢的時候也不會說這怎麼消除中高齡者的歧視,讓他們重新投入職場等等的問題。 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4754.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4771.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
所以我想他是一個我想全球也在面對那事實上你說跟國際接軌嗎其實國際上面大家也都在面對這個問題那有沒有很好的解方也不知道目前也沒看到因為如果有很好我們可以直接抄襲複製來推行就可以解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4771.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4771.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
韓國瑜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4791.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4801.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
3.消除年齡歧視法案的推行是有助於消除職場中的年齡歧視,讓中高齡者可以創造更好的就業環境,這對於提升勞動參與和促進社會公平也有重要意義。 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4806.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4829.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那第4個剛剛也有討論到所謂疊床架屋的問題其實整合現有的政策雖然有意見認為法案可能跟一些法律有重疊但我想壯世代法案可以作為一個整合性的框架協調各部會的政策反而有機會避免資源浪費和政策碎片化為什麼這樣講剛剛我們陳昭志委員有提到過去勞動部其實有在推動55plus的這個這個就業這個壯世代就業的相關的活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4833.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4850.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
相關的推廣所以事實上這個問題應該是一個跨部會的問題反而應該可以用一個發展性的政策來讓大家可以共同的往同一個目標前進我想這個大家都不會否認大家都需要解決這個少子化和這個超高齡社會帶來對社會的衝擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4852.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4874.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
第5個長期政策規劃,因為壯世代法案希望是提供一個長期的政策規劃,我想這主要是要應對未來人口結構的變化跟社會發展要有前瞻性的意義,要能夠引導政府跟社會資源有效的配置。所以我想以上五點的主要在壯世代可能帶來的效應上面,那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4875.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4883.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
重點就是說是不是應該進一步的來討論每一條行政部門有什麼意見這樣比較有實質性的推動那以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4901.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4905.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
謝謝主席剛剛賴瑞榮委員他說要接軌國際所以他對於55歲這個定義這個壯世代定義是有意見的他認為這樣子是沒有接軌國際那我想請教的是賴瑞榮委員你現在是藉機打臉一樣想爭取民進黨推派選高雄市長的許民春前部長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4925.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4946.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我剛剛已經說了,許部長在擔任部長的時候,勞動部就推出了55個plus,55plus壯世代就業促進措施,就明確的定義,那現在內委員是要指責許明春前部長他沒有接軌國際嗎?互相爭取高雄市長我想是好事,但是請不要把自己黨內內部的內鬥帶到衛環委員會來,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4952.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4955.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
邱銀委員．續王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4964.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4987.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
好 謝謝主席我想第一個我還是不知道陳昭芝委員剛剛在講什麼這個這跟許民春部長有什麼關係然後這跟民進黨的選舉也沒有關係喔把民進黨選舉帶到衛環委員會來是您不是賴瑞榮第二個我想還是要請教一下我一直對於所謂的壯世代政策跟產業發展促進法的立法目的跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4988.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5013.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
基準其實是不太理解的就是說我們可以提到有一個壯世代我想如果依照現在這個定義我很快就會進入壯世代可是等到我可能如果我能夠活到90歲的話我還可以叫自己壯世代的我覺得會有點不好意思就像我20歲的時候被大家叫漂亮寶貝現在50幾歲你們叫我漂亮寶貝我都會覺得不好意思是一樣的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5014.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5038.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那第三個我想看一下這個條文比如說這個條文第三條就要求要成立一個壯世代政策辦公室那過去行政院有很多各個不同向下的政策辦公室都會被在野黨指責這個是黑機關、跌床架屋那現在我們是明定在法裡面就要求行政院要設一個壯世代辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5039.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5042.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
政府要積極推動、輔助壯世代產業的發展,結合財稅、金融制度等等。所以如果依照第4條的這個寫法的話,我想未來我們可能還會有一條叫做壯世代經濟發展條例。 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5061.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5062.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
第5條建立超高齡社會金融行動方案指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5076.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5093.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我其實是不太懂整個立基點到底是要談什麼東西如果他只是一個宣誓性的動作但是所以那我覺得可以不用再特別立一個所謂的壯世代法案應該是讓行政部門在各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5094.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5094.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
委員吳春城等42人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5122.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5148.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個未來都還需要有執法的配合比如說你要有公司部門的學術機構要成立這個專責單位那這個專責單位要在哪裡個像安得在哪一個單位底下那你一定還要有執法去做配合第5條超高齡的金融行動方案一定也要有執法去做配合所以你現在立的這些法你剛剛講說不會影響到其他的相關的規定我其實是看不太出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5149.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5149.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
王振旭委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5187.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5208.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
謝謝主席來做今天會議的討論我真的很佩服吳春城吳委員這本書我真的看了好幾次感受很多我覺得在精神上在理念上真的非常非常的贊同因為我在這個年紀 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5210.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5210.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5232.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5235.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
彼此世代之間做更好的交流。 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5260.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5272.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
因為我們知道第二條現在是把壯世代定於55歲以上這個年齡看起來是也能夠滿符合這個世代的一個進入到這個年齡的過程不過這個他剛才說是臃腫的世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5275.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5295.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
萬一他身體違和怎麼辦?如果因為我長期在照顧這些癌症病人,還有在接觸臨床過程當中,我想所有人也是一樣喔,在年紀這麼長之後,他的身體可能各方面就會出現不如我們每一個人對自己身體的期待,這就是為什麼要稱作壯世代。 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5296.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5321.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
好像有一點辛苦啦因為我已經受到相當的影響或者是他有一些身體上或者是他本身是寒病到這個年紀以後事實上失明的機會就高很多所以如果在年齡層我們只是定義55歲以上然後用年輕年紀大沒有去關係到他的這個身體的不管是身體的 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5322.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5322.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5337.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5361.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
如何能夠讓產業發展可是當他這個身體老化的時候帶來的影響當然就會很大那在第8條裡面要從預防老化的觀點那如果我們壯世代來預防老化是OK的不過他如果已經是身體不好這個就不是預防老化的問題而是他直接需要接受整個醫療或者是整個社會照顧的問題所以我們將來在討論的時候那這邊如何能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5365.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5383.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
有效的去把這個第8條也做一些比較好的一些規範另外第15條因為我們希望在這個法案裡面政府要建立壯世代國家資料庫並每一年統計並公佈健康預期壽命 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5386.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5396.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這個真的是對台灣的民眾有非常重要的需求不管達到健康台灣或者是相關的部分這些數據都一定要建立好 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5397.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5417.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
那如果我們根據壯世代的需求來建立這樣的治療室那如果國家都已經有適當的治療庫那需不需要在這個法案裡面再特別的去強調它那我等一下也麻煩這個主管機關能不能針對這個部分因為我們知道其實我們台灣民眾的不健康理念真的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5419.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5444.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
臺在很不好的地方因為我們平均人命是80歲有十分之一的生命是屬於不健康人命我們本來以為新加坡是很讓我們值得學習的不健康人命可以達到很好的目標的地方那前兩天新加坡的一個醫師來臺灣做相關的報告跟演講他們說新加坡也是一樣他們不健康人命也將近10年 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5445.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5472.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
聽了是有一點不是說這樣啦起碼好像這個都是共同的問題那如果這是共同的問題的話那我們在這個第15條這個部分未來如何能夠跟現在現有的國家的資料庫做銜接而不是因為有了這個壯世代的需求而去另外做這個資料庫的處理這個我想這個細節的部分在討論的時候也希望都能夠有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5473.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5476.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
來做更多的一些想法上面的處理以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5493.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5516.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
謝謝主席,那我就今天的這個法案的第一條,其實我看了之後我不知道說這個法的主責單位是誰,今天這個行政單位也來了這麼多人,那這個法的主責單位到底是誰?到底是衛福部或者是勞動部,或者是更高層級行政院這邊? |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5519.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5529.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
主責單位到底是誰,也不是那麼明確。我看了所有的法條,宣誓性成分比較大。我不知道衛福部跟勞動部應該原本就中高齡或高齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5543.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5543.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
委員吳春城 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5563.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5581.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
後面這個第20條有說本法施行後兩年內各級政府應依本法之規定檢討所主管之法規有不符合本法規定者應制定修正或廢止相關法規所以這個牽涉的很廣所以我覺得這個應該要好好的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5587.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5588.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
衛福部勞動部 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5613.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5630.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
主責單位你們就要去統籌嘛吼那另外就是說這個每一條每一條其實我看了每一條也都很有道理啊也都很有道理問題是如果這個要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5631.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5633.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
政府應建立超高齡社會金融行動方案與指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5647.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5674.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
那第6條就是政府應促成公司部門還有學術機構的合作而增進壯世代研究資源應用那其實這個部分應該我覺得這個行政部門也許這個教育部或其他單位是不是已經有這樣或者是勞動部也有這樣的一個這個在職進修啊或者是什麼樣的一個一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5675.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5675.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
陳事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5690.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5704.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
謝謝各位委員的指教我請代表勞動部說明以下各點第一個部分就是其實針對中高齡高齡者就是45歲到65歲或65歲以上其實大院有通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5705.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5723.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
109年有通過《中高齡及高齡者就業促進法》,勞動部依照這個法令也在執行當中吳委員過去對於壯世代這邊給勞動部很多的指教,所以我們也發現55歲以上有一些過早退出勞動市場確實是相對的是可惜的 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5724.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5753.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我們在中高齡和高齡者就業促進法大院也通過了相關修正的條文在12月4日就業實施包括要擬定3年的就業計畫包括要每2年推出職場指引包括要針對符合退休年齡的部分提供調試退休準備或再就業等等所以勞動部在這部分針對壯世代這部分很佩服吳委員的意見我們也相應的都做了很多的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5754.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5767.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
這部分因為在勞動部的夜館他一定是要有就業能力跟就業意願所以我們沒有天花板的問題我們對年齡歧視有做了一些相應的處理那在這個案子裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5768.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5783.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
就涉及勞動部的條文只有一條那現在整併成一項那看起來跟我們的就業中高齡及高齡者就業促進法的方向是一致的所以我們其實是沒有特別的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5783.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5811.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
我們未來在處理方向包括在職者的穩定就業包括失業者的重返職場包括退休者的再就業以致於擴大相關的服務網絡開發勞動力這部分我們既有的依照相關的法規都會持續去進行這第一點做說明那第二點的部分就是行政院整體有社會福利推動委員會那過去也有修正高齡社會白皮書也有因應超高齡社會的對策方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5812.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5835.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
應吳委員的一個指教,院長也請陳時中、陳政委督導,我們勞動部也彙整了14個部會、76項的措施,有一個壯世代社會參與的促進就業方案,所以相關的部份行政部門都有在積極處理當中,那確實是一個跨 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5836.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5838.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這部分大概簡單跟各位委員做報告,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5867.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5870.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
理事長要不要補充OK感謝主席以及委員的垂詢那我想我在這邊大概衛福部有三個重點第一個就是剛剛我想王詠敏王委員還有很多委員也基本上大概很關心我們有沒有跌床架屋的問題那我跟各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5893.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5893.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
本會議的主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5919.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5941.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
第一是剛剛我想陳市長也代表勞動部有報告的中高齡以及高齡者就業促進法我再強調一次中高齡是45歲高齡者是65這是International Standard第二個經濟部有推動中小企業發展條例第三衛福部負責老人福利法以及長期照顧服務法 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5942.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5965.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
以及《全民健康保險法》還有《營養及健康飲食促進法》還有《精神衛生法》教育部則是負責《中生學習法》還有這個經濟部推動除了中考企業發展條例之外其實很多也針對我們剛剛這一個這個所謂的一般所謂的定力的壯世代有很多很多相當產業推動的一個方案那麼從重複規範的話確實 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5967.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5967.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5985.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6009.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我想我也個人非常非常欽佩這一個吳春城委員他所推動的這一個這個壯世代的這個運動但是而且這個部分確實也是我們共同大家非常關心有關於超高齡社會的問題但是現在有問題倡議是一回事具體立法因為這裡面會牽涉到有關於對於人民權利義務的相關的問題那我想整個立法上面務必 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6009.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6009.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
以上,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6040.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6040.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
謝謝次長 蘇勇副處長你要補充一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6051.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6078.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
主席 各位委員我想再做一個 兩個市長剛才有說明我再做一個補充第一個因應明年就要進入超高齡社會所以行政院在110年跟111年也分別訂定了這個高齡社會白皮書還有這個因應超高齡社會的對策方案然後對於這個壯世代這個議題的部分行政院事實上是相當重視的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6079.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6106.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
委員長也指示了深思中政委也召開了3次的會議那在11月12號院長主持的社會福利推動委員會也通過了勞動部剛才所提的會整的14個部會所提的這個壯世代的社會參與促進方案所以在整體的政策來講行政院事實上是對於整個高齡社會的部分已經有一個相當具體的一個對策方案在做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6107.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6134.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
第二,已經有既定的政策方案在推的時候,在定義一個法例,恐怕要斟酌。因為法例的部分來講,剛才各位所提的部分,可能重點會在兩個部分。第一個,壯世代的定義。因為壯世代定義的部分來講,現在是用一個法例名詞定義,而且這個壯世代的部分在國際上是沒有定義的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6134.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6134.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
吳春城議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6152.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6153.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
中央行政機關組織基準法第5條第3項規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6177.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6201.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
不得以作用法或其他法規規定這個機關的組織明顯的這個草案第3條的部分跟這個法律是有違背的第二個部分來講對整個高齡社會的部分的行政政策的部分來講已經由院長主持的社會福利推動委員會那在下設院長指示的政務委員有一個專案小組也做了一個應用處理現在在 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6202.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6202.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
再請廖維祥委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6229.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6256.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我只是簡單表達一下剛剛邱盈盈委員有說那個她現在覺得被叫這個漂亮寶貝很奇怪但是我覺得對我來講我可以叫她漂亮姐姐所以不會很奇怪那另外就是其實剛剛大家在討論的都有針對裡面的一條一條去做討論和去做合理不合理所以我認為現在是不是還是應該實質的進入逐條的去看每一條到底哪裡有問題大家可以提出來好好討論對不對好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6258.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6260.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好你也請委員我想公聽會也開過了那一樣都有幾個問題到底真的是誰是主責今天真的各部會都來了那到底是要行政院還是誰這是我第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6288.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6316.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我一直在查相關的訊息因為我本來在學校就教所謂的在社工也有家庭人類學裡邊講到人類發展那我們嘗試去看有兒童發展有少年發展有所謂的青年發展也有所謂的中老年然後老年期所以我就查不到說我們有兒童福利法有少年福利法後來兒少合併 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6317.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6317.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6330.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6331.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
而通福利法、少年福利法 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6358.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6377.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
老人福利法現在多了一個壯世代那我們是不是也要來立個婦女或立個什麼就是我不知道去創這樣的名詞上的用意還有一個就是說用55歲到底有沒有有根有據尤其50後來我去看中高齡的發展裡邊50歲大概勢力上已經事實上是減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6383.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6392.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
這兩個事實上對我來講是叫我一直去賺錢然後一直去消費嗎那我本來如果事實上是可以好好休息的反而又變成叫我要做生產者又要做消費者這個我也不太理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6406.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6420.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
在法裏邊有蠻多的衝突的這是而且本來我們就有中高齡跟高齡者就業促進法如果你叫我要去工作那有啦有這個法啦而且它規定就是55歲以上那我當然就要問問我們的勞動部就是說如果今天這個法通過我有點疑慮的是到底這法裏邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6432.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6447.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
本來特別法就優先於普通法新法優於舊法所以如果這個法通過的話中高齡及高齡者的就業促進法以後是不是就應該會不會這樣子法律效果就會不會造成了除了本法第2條、第1項、第7條、第13條、第14條與中高齡就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6452.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6475.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
專法相似的部分適用是架空中高齡就業的相關規定嗎?所以我們為什麼一直前面在公聽會的時候就講跌床駕屋跌床駕屋好像似乎也沒有也沒有人去做這個回應那還是說要把直接那個勞動政策的這幾條通通都拿掉那本法內容就少掉20%不過要把這邊我們的壯世代的這個法拿掉的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6476.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6503.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那我不知道勞動部到底有沒有什麼樣的一個建議剛剛我講說除了叫我們去生產以外又叫我們說要去消費那我就要來問消費的這樣子想問經濟部你怎麼去理解叫做壯世代產業因為我現在到現在讀完條文我還是沒有理解那個壯世代產業意指的是什麼還有什麼叫做長壽經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6506.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6534.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
這又是意思是什麼因為法律如果定義不清楚的話通常去執行的人事實上是有困難的像這個產業創生到底這個力量是要來自市場的創意還是來自政府如果這個叫人家去創生創業如果55歲他經濟已經走到高峰要往下走的時候那你如果造成他的失敗的時候到底是叫政府負責嗎還是要誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6535.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6536.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
所以我就不太了解說 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6565.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6565.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
委員吳春城 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6594.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6594.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6610.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6630.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
45歲會不會比55歲更是壯世代可是這要定義55歲所以我才說一直認為說沒有學理根據的時候要我們硬要去定這樣子的一個法令的話那我們也很擔心在這邊同意的人會不會被後代笑還有這個壯世代的人員專業資格到底是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6630.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6631.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
菁姐再請鄭天才委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6664.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6681.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
謝謝委員的指導那經濟部這邊有3點來做報告第一點就是臺灣要進入超高齡的社會所以勞動力呢看起來是要有所補充那未來55歲以上的這一些我們現在定義叫壯世代的族群他可以是勞動力市場的一部分這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6682.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6710.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那第二點這個壯世代的這些55歲以上的族群相對的他的健康的狀況以及對休閒的注重我們都必須要來加以關心所以他所對應的健康醫療產業以及他的休閒這一部分呢都是可以來關注的這是第二點報告所以後續我們是可以利用智慧化的科技那鼓勵業者針對壯世代的族群相關的服務休閒產業等等的來做推廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6710.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6711.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6746.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6772.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
主席、各位委員,我想這個提案人之所以會提這個法,絕對有他的一個非常重要的一個目的。剛才聽了這個我們行政部門的這個發言,尤其是我們衛福部的次長、政務次長, |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6774.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6801.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
這個法就是要立法所以才不要影響到人民的權益就是要透過法律的制定剛剛提到了幾個行政部門一直提到行政院已經訂了什麼方案行政院已經訂了什麼排比書這個都沒有法現在就是要立法讓你有所依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6802.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6829.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
才能夠不要影響到人民的權益這麼重要的事情你說我們已經有訂了方案還沒有法律的依據你說我們做了排批書訂了排批書沒有法律的依據我們現在立法給你們依據這是對的所以這個部分第一個什麼是叫壯世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6832.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6859.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
不是這個草案的第一個發明的啦勞動部在今年的2月就訂了什麼呢就訂了壯世代就業促進獎勵實施要點這裡面就有壯世代是幾歲以上就有啊就訂了等於我們今天討論這個法到底寫55歲是不是當大家可以討論是不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6860.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6888.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
往下45歲以上可以討論而不是整個就否決所以這個勞動部就已經訂了壯世代沒有法律的依據我們透過法律給他明文規定什麼叫壯世代不是很好嗎對不對所以另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6890.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6918.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
講到辦公室這個沒有違反中央行政機關組織基準法中央行政機關組織基準法所明定的是針對機關機關現在不是這個只是辦公室現在設了很多辦公室啊也沒有法的依據啊我們現在立法授權給你依據不是更合法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6919.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6934.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
所以這個部分這個名稱法律的名稱大家可以討論如果從第一條到最後一條這樣看這個條文可能改為基本法 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6935.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6963.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
可能是比較適當的這是我的建議所以我認為這樣的一個法律的提出絕對有它的一個非常需要達成的一個如果我們從各條條文來看那我們怎麼樣讓這個條文能夠更符合我們目前台灣社會的一個需要我想只有這樣的一個建議以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6965.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6985.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
謝謝 謝謝鄭委員再一次的跟我們委員會報告齁那今天他這個有提出修正把21條已經容收為13條就是裡面有一些重疊的我本身也有意見的他們都協商之後都改了齁那第二個這個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6987.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7012.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
出委員會之後會送政黨協商政黨協商我們會再請陳時中政治政務委員來作會作會跟行政委員會的想法跟版本都可以修改所以我們現在今天就來把主條唸第一個我們壯世代政策產業發展促進草案這個名稱有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7016.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7017.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
有意見嗎?有意見沒有?那我們就要保留啦那我們從第一條開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7043.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7051.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
第一條我們陳清威委員有修正齁修正他是跑到那裡去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7055.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7077.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
第一條他實現世代資源共享他改成世代經濟循環目標行政單位有沒有意見世代改成資源共享對不起念環了 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7084.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7086.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
經濟循環或資源共享。 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7115.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7116.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
那個...剛剛有... |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7137.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7139.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
請教吳委員經濟循環的概念也有參考循環經濟的概念循環經濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7158.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7171.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
一個很重要的概念就是沒有垃圾的概念所以套在這邊的話呢因為是人所以變成不能沒有應該是說不能有沒有用的人所以壯世代每個人必須要會賺錢會花錢而且還要身體健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7187.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7190.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以我這樣講吳委員都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7193.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7193.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7226.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7250.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
謝謝主席,對不起我中文不太好我可不可以請提案委員說明一下什麼叫做實現世代經濟循環目標然後維護壯世代人權與尊嚴因為我中文實在是看不懂啦可以請提案委員說明一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7255.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7277.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
好 謝謝這個可能是壯世代跟我們一般傳統在講長照啦社福的觀念很重要的差異一點差異一點就是我們也覺得老人就是就是被我們像在撫養比是被撫養的但事實上我們主計處裡面的統計資料我們的稅55%是壯世代提供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7283.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7305.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們三分之二的財富是在壯世代的手上的那因為這些呢如果而且我們現在只想到他們要倒下來要長照這個會造成我們現在扶養比已經3.6比1啊3.6個年輕人要扶養一個老人那這個2040年會變成2比12070年會變成1比1 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7308.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7335.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那這個就是叫做大量的高齡化倒進之塔型的時代來臨我們有什麼解決的方式壯世代有解決方式就是把分子壯起來拉下來當分母一起成為生產者、消費者、勞動者這個不僅是對壯世代第三人生他會有方向他會不會倒下來我們現在的高齡者臥床平均已經超過8年所以呢當他把這些帶出來以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7336.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7336.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7366.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7369.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
不好意思那主席我可以再繼續提問嗎好你也請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7376.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7387.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
我可不可以請教一下因為剛剛按照吳委員的解釋就是這個循環到讓年輕世代可以有這個壯大這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7401.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7416.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
創造市場所以這個年輕人他們去解決了他們的這個經濟會可以改善他們的經濟狀況那這樣子這些他就敢結婚敢生小孩對然後那 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7417.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7434.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那這些壯世代的就會變好了壯世代過著他創造他的市場我們現在掌握他三分之的財富但是我們對高齡者的產業現在就養生養病養老其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7435.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7453.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
他以前為什麼會這樣子因為以前我們都因法思維就把人認為退休以後來歷不多其實現在如果你到60歲退休以後現在會有30年很多的到90歲這30年竟然沒有產業只剩下養生養病養老他不臥床才奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7455.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7479.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以如果發展這個整個的完整的長壽經濟十一住行娛樂各方面高齡者想看什麼電影高齡者想聽什麼音樂時尚的衣服這就是經濟部在談的大健康產業大健康產業委員不好意思因為我想我們這邊的連結是斷掉的是因為我不知道我們這個年輕世代賺的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7481.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7496.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
說賺錢好了吼怎麼樣跑到這個壯世代那邊去因為你說要壯世代要穿漂亮的衣服要去看電影要去玩嗎年輕人就會去研發他要去研究那個壯世代需要什麼他有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7496.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7502.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
有些人有錢但是他沒有東西可以買,這就是創造長壽經濟有些人有錢但是都被鎖在保險這個就是金管會要釋放他們的財務自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7519.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7543.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
有些人需要缺錢他需要繼續的工作或者他想貢獻社會這就是勞動部的要創造的最後這些人都撐住了我們才有辦法去照顧那社福體系這些目前是15%的這些私人的當這些人我們現在只有把老人當作社福的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7544.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7554.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
這個只佔80萬的人,我們有800萬的高齡者,你沒有政策沒有產業的話,這會造成人口土石流,整個崩下來以後我們社福體系也同樣崩潰。好,請黃學芳委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7558.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7580.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
好,謝謝主席。那我剛剛就那個我們今天的這個草案,《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》。那我想請教啦,如果我們把壯世代改成中高齡及高齡政策與產業發展促進法草案, |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7580.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7605.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
這樣是不是可以那另外就是說我們在譬如說在我們第一條的部分吼這個維護壯世代人權與尊嚴那我們是把它改成就是說維護中高齡及高齡者人權與尊嚴那這樣就可以呼應到我們勞動部以及各單位以及衛福部這邊原本就有的一些政策是不是可以這樣子做一個修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7613.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7635.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
吳春城委員你自己的意見原本壯世代大家都很有意見就這個名稱而且這個定義底下那個壯世代的定義是說指55歲以上的國民那如果我們這個草案把它改成中高齡及高齡政策與產業發展促進法草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7636.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7663.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
第一條這個壯世代就改成這個中高齡及高齡人權與尊嚴那第二的部分第二條就是壯世代這個年齡的這個壯世代定義改成中高齡的定義是什麼高齡的定義是什麼那這個也可以呼應目前我們這個勞動部或衛福部其他單位目前做的那如果做的不足的部分我們可以再逐條再來補充這樣是不是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7665.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7668.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
請林業勤文、花園丸就吳春城委員回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7677.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7703.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
你也許委員發言完請廖瑋祥,廖瑋祥要請吳春城發言好,所以我現在可以發言齁張偉下次可不可以幫我們我們也來寫一個叫做首女產業相關的促進法為什麼,因為我覺得剛剛我聽吳委員講完就是說只要我們喊口號講壯世代壯世代我們真的就變壯世代嗎我剛剛已經提過一直叫我們又要消費 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7704.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7704.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7719.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7736.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以我覺得剛吳春城講的我不知道到底吳春城委員講的到底有沒有真的背後的他說50%的我們的中高齡都非常有錢我真的也要向我問先他是不是用我們台北市會用他自己的狀況去看因為學歷上 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7739.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7756.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們看臺灣事實上有時候就有現在已經事實上有貧富不均的社會現象二分之一的老人他的二分之一的人他老年給付的時候落在兩萬塊以下至少四分之一的人是在二到三萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7757.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7768.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
對照今年的每月必要生活費用支出是1萬7到2萬4所以還有四分之三的人是這樣維持小康而且現在五十幾歲的人他可能要撫養阿公阿嬤還要撫養爸爸媽媽 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7771.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7798.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
一個事實上是輕度那個失智兩個事實上是重度的那你說還要孩子可能大學畢業剛離手這都是沉重的負擔的時候那今天要談這個的時候不要一直覺得說那要從五十幾歲的人那挖錢出來或者是叫他們他們已經努力工作他要去撫養上邊的所以我們還是希望定義講清楚否則的話你如果用五十五歲我真的也是不太同意齁等下第二條要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7799.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7808.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
前面我還是聽不懂還是我的中文理解能力有問題我真的聽不懂說要翻轉銀髮那這時候為什麼不講壯世代呢因為翻轉銀髮海嘯轉為國家發展的動力反正就是要讓人一直做到死就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7819.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7819.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
廖維強委員歡迎 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7845.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7861.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
首先回復一下我看了我查了一下資料所謂55歲plus掌握台灣大部分財富他其實引用的是中研院我們台灣中研院社會所的林宗鴻研究員跟各學者合作做出來的結果這第一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7862.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7879.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那第二件事情就是所謂的就業再就業然後再花錢這件事情我覺得比較片面解讀我認為他在做的事情是做創造一個社會結構讓他有的選擇那因為我們在想區域立委我常常在跑的時候常常會經過會去跑這個所謂關懷據點關懷據點的這種地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7884.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7901.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
其實我覺得他壯世代為什麼剛剛有委員說那是不是就叫中高齡和高齡就業促進法就好我覺得他就是呼應了為什麼要改叫壯世代他要改變的是觀念的概念因為還是如果你要這樣講的話其實我們上次才在跟勞動部質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7902.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7932.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
為什麼現在有這個就業促進法可是我們的職場上面感受到被年齡歧視的居然高達6、70%反正很高啊那這樣子究竟到底哪裡出了狀況所以我想這個是為什麼現在今天要改交壯世代的部分當然大家可能對於壯世代有沒有被激勵到不一定啊但是我自己在一線在跑地方行程的時候我有跟他們講這個概念其實他們認為他們是很認同的因為他覺得他退休之後很多人看到他就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7934.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7952.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
引髮族、伴白老翁講一講後來都懶得出來真的會在關懷據點的是社會上非常少數的一部分人還是很多人就覺得我要撈我就不出來我既不就業可能我也擔心我後來人生未來要留下這些很多的資產那我也不想要花費 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7954.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7969.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
他要選擇他要就業或者不就業他還是可以選擇他要消費或不消費而不是說你叫他就業然後又要叫他消費你只是創造出一個社會結構是讓這樣子的經濟比較有活水那這是我的看法那以上分享謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7981.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8003.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
其實現在其實行政院我們院長其實是很喜歡壯世代的所以才會成立了行政院的壯世代部委小組一開始我是請求6個部委會加入後來行政院自己擴充到14個部委會 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8006.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8018.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為每一個部會都覺得這個對他們幫助很大現在不僅是勞動部高舉壯世代重返職場成效良好包括教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8020.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8041.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
也響應就是要明年1月份開始推動第三人生大學不是社區大學是有學位的大學不是都在大學18歲進入現在有些大學已經而且熱烈現在已經有40所大學報名這都是在壯世代的觀念啟發之下包括兩個禮拜前諮詢月 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8042.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8064.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
書發部過去都是用樂齡資訊都沒有人這一次用壯世代懂資的樂園、懂資訊的樂園創造了萬能因法族進來那所以呢剛才為什麼壯世代為什麼不用中高齡其實中高齡跟老齡這個稱呼現在在世界當中的定義也正在搖擺 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8065.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8083.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
正在搖擺快要崩潰了45歲為什麼就稱為中高齡你出國念書回來就已經40歲工作5年就開始輔導帶退嘛這都是過去農業社會的觀念到現在都沒有更新啦連勞動部都覺得好笑啦但是也沒有改我們要捍衛這個嗎65歲被稱為法定老人 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8087.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
8110.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
像我就已經快要領敬老卡了我也覺得我不甘願啊我的朋友周邊都覺得很奇怪啊這個東西是不是應該要檢討日本都已經延後到70了所以這些都不確定的東西嘛所以為什麼一定要這個那基本上我也跟大家講說行政院現在基本上是接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
8111.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
8111.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
8141.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
8155.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
好,那第一條大家有沒有意見?要不要保留還是要通過?好,那第一條保留,第二條?第二條主要是年齡的問題啦,55歲,這是怎麼來?第二條?要保留?要不要保留?保留?好,那我們現在休息10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
8824.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8831.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
好,我們現在繼續開會第一條保留,第二條保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8832.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8860.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
第三條我們楊耀文要先發言我覺得我們第二條直接保留那我先說就是確實目前的中高齡我們的定義是是太年輕了我覺得45歲因為明年以後就45歲的占整人口數的50%以上所以提出壯世代的概念我是覺得很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8862.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8883.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
為什麼是55歲這個我們我們我們要不要討論一下還有就是在第二條的定義裡面有關壯世代的政策產業跟就業其實都沒有都沒有界定的非常的清楚就是就是都都概念概念還蠻模糊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8884.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8914.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
因為我們總管整個草案呢就是大概都是要求政府做宣誓性的東西他整個草案裡面大概就連要不要設基金都只是得設而不是應設也就是說我們整部草案看起來就是除了要求國家每年應制定 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8915.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8930.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
年度壯世代的政策跟產業發展計畫,除了這個是比較硬性的規定以外,大概都是比較一般性、遜式性的規定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8932.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8945.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
也就是我們從整部草案來看假如說我們第二條就直接保留那後面的可能就會全部保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8948.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8973.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以我可能還是要問一下因為吳春城委員的定義是55歲那我想要讓行政機關表達你們覺得第2條就是包括壯世代的定義包括壯世代的政策跟產業跟就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8975.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8979.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
在這個草案裡面你們有沒有意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9000.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9023.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
謝謝楊委員的指教其實在剛開始的時候勞動部也跟各位報告過勞動部對於目前有一個中高齡及高齡者就業促進法那中高齡的定義就是45到65那高齡者就是65以上我們對於那一邊有一個相應的法規在處理那有一些條文在12月4號也會繼續推動包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9027.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9049.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
每3年有一個就業計畫每2年必須要更新我們的職場指引包括我們相應的符合退休資格也必須要有一些政府部門必須要或僱主需要相應的提供調試或者是退休準備或者是在就業的準備所以其實在中高年級高齡者就業促進法其實有一些相應的規定就在處理當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9051.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9071.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
那目前這個本法的版本裡面有關於壯世代的就業只消除社會對壯世代就業歧視然後具有工作能力或對象協助、蓄留職商、在位者這邊也符合我們對於中高齡及高齡者就業促進法現在的做法還有未來的精進作為所以關於這個條文我們其實是沒有特別的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9075.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9099.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
所以次長的意思是說就是整個中高齡的就業保障已經在在中高齡及高齡者就業促進法已經都有相應的規定在那一邊可是呢可是我想會有這樣子的草案產生我覺得第一就是中高齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9101.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9103.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
市長我們現在是討論這個壯世代政策跟產業發展的促進法 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9131.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9144.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我覺得我覺得這個法討論過了以後通過以後相關的法律應該要怎麼修訂那是另外一回事就是說我們應該要先聚焦在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9146.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9169.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
跟委員報告,其實在過去中高年級、高年級的就業促進法的過程,我們發現年齡歧視是一個重要問題。那55歲以後找退職場,或者是沒有辦法再續留職場,或失業者沒有辦法重返職場,或退休者沒有辦法再就業都是一個問題。所以我們之前在吳委員的協助底下,我們對 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9171.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9198.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
55歲以上的這部分尤其勞參率雪崩式的下降我們對這一塊其實跟吳委員有充分的討論我們也推出了一些相應的計畫和重要的做法所以這部分我們在中高齡和高齡者就業促進法的架構底下針對55歲以上都有一些特別的計劃和措施在做展開所以我才會特別報告說有關於這個第二條的第四款的部分我們其實是沒有特別意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9199.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9206.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我們在中高齡就業促進法底下已經有相應的計畫內容在做處理所以次長的回答就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9211.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9234.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
很明白的表示其實45歲到55歲跟55歲以上其實他在職場上面臨的問題是天差地遠會有很大的不對那就是你的回答呢其實就是彰顯壯世代獨立立法的需求性你懂我的意思嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9235.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9248.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
我好像也不是這樣應該這樣講說我們在中高年級高齡者就會促進法他其實有很多的規定在那原來的區分是中高齡者一塊高齡者一塊高齡者是幾歲以上65歲對 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9250.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9275.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
對阿我們跟吳委員這邊在相關的議題的討論還有概念的翻轉上面我們針對55歲以上這一塊勞動力快速的流失這一塊我們有推了相關的其他的法案再去做其他的措施和計畫再做處理這邊在中高齡者就會促進法並不相違背阿好謝謝主席聽起來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9281.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9302.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
45歲叫做中高齡然後65歲叫高齡55歲這樣叫壯世代我們今年已經有一半人口已經有一半人口超過45歲了所以我們現在一半的人是叫做中高齡我們台灣一半的人叫做中高齡一半因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9305.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9331.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
我還是反對啦吼因為我覺得難怪是吳春城委員提的啦吼因為這個狀就充滿的男性主義沙文主義吼所以我覺得這個而且只是55歲以上的國民所以這個我不太接受所以我覺得如果這邊沒有修因為這跟名稱有關聯性嘛所以如果跟他講保留所以跟他換姚耀偉以後再講所以我還是期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9332.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9332.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9345.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9366.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
少年福利法、兒童福利法、少年福利法、老人福利法現在跳出來又一個擺脫掉發展的那樣子的概念裡邊突然來的壯世代我還是不太贊成是說這樣子的名稱如果你說今天像剛剛秀芳委員講的如果改成是中高齡第一個也符合學齡然後有事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9369.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9369.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9398.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9413.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這樣界定下去在政府的資源分配上會不會造成什麼效果因為我始終不知道這55歲定義哪來的如果真的這個壯世代只是為了講要講口號我沒有意見可是如果要定在法律上 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9414.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9417.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
中高齡及高齡者就業促進法,當時是為了促進45歲以上的中高齡者和65歲以上的高齡者就業,來達到健康參與和安全。 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9438.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9441.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員吳春城等42人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9463.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9464.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
委員會員沒有?好來 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9491.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9511.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
感謝委員的垂詢我想就做兩點的這一個的說明第一個確實就整個這一個發展那個人類發展還有就整個這一個相關心理學方面的研究林業勤委員也是這方面的專家就學理上還有國際上其實基本上大概都有明確的定義比如說對於所謂青少年大概10到19 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9512.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9536.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
然後對於這個所謂的青年是20以上45就是所謂中高齡65就是所謂的高齡這個是學理還有這個基本上就整個心理學還有整個這一個相關的這個認知認知法案等等這些相關的這個學科綜合現在目前國際的一個通用所以基本上我想這個是在這個情況之下是不是對於55有一個有一個定義我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9537.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9558.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
這個到目前為止真的在國際上面真的是比較有比較大的大概應該是我我是1993年到德國讀書的基本上我的有限的 limited knowledge告訴我應該是不存在這是第一點另外第二點確實現在目前因為已經存在我們現在目前已經有各項的這一個政策都在推動那這個現在目前又另外再多出來這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9559.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9560.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
臨終紅教授臨終紅教授臨終紅教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9589.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9613.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
就財富而言都是最高的一群那經濟學人6月22號有一個整個special report他有談到就是說就整個全世界戰後因爲草案現在為什麼不消費其實最主要是兩個原因第一個事實上他們害怕就是說整個退休之後他們的整個這一個長照上面恐怕沒辦法有效cover所以他們現在不想把錢把它keep住另外第二個其實事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9614.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9632.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
是因為他們覺得就是說他們下一代的這個教育成本提高那這個兩個部分事實上政府現在目前都在做啊我們有關長照部分我們現在目前在推到2.0準備進入到3.0另外第二個有關有關青年部分我們現在目前對於整個這個私校的部分我們現在目前已經有教育上面的這個都補貼政府都已經在做來減輕他們的這個負擔我想這個現有已經有這個機制在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9637.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9637.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9660.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9671.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
沒有啦,我剛才說第二條保留阿第三條你意見沒有啦,我意見就要通過這樣其實你第三條嗎?第二條保留,來,第三條有沒有意見?沒有的話就...瑤瑤快點,快說 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9681.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9703.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
第三條大概就是我剛剛講的就是這個草案的提出很少有比較具體的法律效果的這第三條倒是有要求要設立壯世代政策的辦公室 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9705.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9710.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
那我也知道好像行政院現在已經有了相關的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9716.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9735.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
可是呢假如說第三條他第三項有規定說壯世代政策辦公室每年應該要制定國家年度壯世代政策跟產業發展計畫到這裡呢我個人是支持的因為我不覺得45歲到55歲跟55歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9738.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9759.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
是一個是一個是一個急劇就因為其實他真的差差距很大的我也我也不大不大不大欸贊同市長剛剛講的就是就是就是早期的分類我覺得特別是在就業市場裡面45歲到55歲跟55歲以上那個絕對是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9765.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9784.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
第三項後來又有講說並審核計畫目標跟預算及成效是不是表示這個辦公室必須要有獨立的預算這個我可能要請教一下提案的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9798.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9808.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
行政院在今年6月份的時候就成立了壯世代跨部委小組都有運作,也提出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9810.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9826.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
現在有70幾項的一個計畫在兩個禮拜前的行政院的社會福利委員會當中卓院長也有針對壯世代的促進方案也都提出了蠻完整的規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
9827.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9841.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
基本上行政院現在是在推動這一個的但是是不是行政院推動呢然後我們就不用立法呢事實上各部會我都在接觸他們今年所114年所編的預算有關壯世代專門項目當中呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9846.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9868.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
都是幾乎是零因為沒有法源與法無拒然後大家因為這個是陳時中政委當召集人行政院這個他也很無奈因為他只有一個秘書他唯一能做的事情現在只有14個部會找來然後大家提一提勉強跟壯實在有關的會總又會編叫做會編 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9873.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9888.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
所提的東西其實跟都是現行措施、樂齡、活動然後各方面的事實上並沒有辦法解決剛才所提出來這樣子一個人口天翻地覆的問題所以為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9890.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9908.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
所以這個事實上不是跌床加烏其實我剛才講的其實大家都已經提到了這就是一個雙軌制對於高齡的這部分雙軌制這樣才有辦法一邊就是照護的措施一邊就是發展性的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9909.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9932.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
那壯世代做一個發展性措施這個一定是必然的一定要做的事情不然無法解決我們如果繼續照舊的方式那至於提辦公室其實辦公室這個沒有餘法所以為什麼要有一個統合的單位那其實像行政院有很多委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9933.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9959.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
很多委員會其實都一樣就是像文件會的行政院文化會報一樣也是跨部會小組消費者保護的會報檢探辦公室的會報其實都是這樣子因為它不是一個部會能解決的問題所以為什麼沒有指定一個部會其實是尊重行政院由行政院來裁量 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9960.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9973.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
張祺凱為 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9974.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9993.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
今天很高興今天討論看起來蠻熱烈的我看剛開始春城這個提案一共有42位委員共同提三個黨都有那春城在總執行跟委員會也提了好幾次我看連這個總代總院長也都是贊成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9994.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
10013.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
那我剛剛這樣一路聽下來正能量的聲音比較多啦正能量聲音比較多可是現在民進黨的委員這樣比較質疑的可能是壯世代這個名字從名稱一直到會不會跌穿家屋有些指證可是我要提醒齁那個二十九天齁這29天就進入這個超高齡社會了那也沒有錯到目前為止我們面對那個掃紙化跟這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
10015.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
10043.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
少子化跟高齡化這個問題看起來社會上你去做個民調包括民進黨可以去做個民調社會上確實有很多的質疑聲也做得不夠好那我覺得春城很有心他很花了很多的心思去提了這個案子看起來他是比較積極面的包括就是說目前我們有中高齡就業法這個服務法都可以去做那可是相對我們現在應該有個專法針對比較年長者而且這裡面有一個非常重要這個法裡面有一個非常重要我們都不喜歡人家叫我們老人家嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
10045.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
10059.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
老人家以前連銀髮竹坑某些人都覺得說好像這個名詞都該更好一點點我覺得現在變成壯世代而且針對他裡面的整個產業發展說他的就業剛講的不是只有說叫連長的人去就業啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
10062.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
10089.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
也可以啊當然90對為什麼不能壯世代我認識的一些年長者八九十的現在運動的都都都非常的好啊你可是沒有啦葉請你不喜歡他叫壯世代你要叫他你要叫他什麼你要叫他你你有時候稱他太老的人名稱他又不喜歡啊這壯世代是一個非常中性而且是一個更正面的啦好對不對葉請那個你不喜歡如果不喜歡壯世代那你要提出個更好的名詞嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
10090.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
10113.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
目前看起來是最...抱歉我不要再講太多了抱歉因為今天是經濟跟衛福聯席我是經濟委員會今天我不是只有我一個人我們台灣民眾黨全力支持這個案子每次說這個法案對台灣社會是非常正面的那我剛剛特別強調這個案子是朝野的立委包括民進黨立委是有連署的然後在總執行跟各個委員會的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
10114.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
10137.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
包括行政官員、左院長都是比較正面的看待這個事情所以我期待今天我們用比較正能量的然後講今天如果再這樣耗下去這樣耗下去沒有錯就是每一條都保留嘛那結果是什麼送到朝野學生、政黨學生啊那因為每個人都朝野都有簽名已經42個了嘛對不對那民政黨全力支持國民黨也支持民進黨裡面也有些人支持這個案子還是一定是會三讀通過的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
10138.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
10154.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
那是不是在三讀通過前我們用比較正面的來看這個案子好不好 把它做得更好 照顧我們所有的人特別我剛剛要提醒 超高齡都來了 像我們在座的像剛剛陳穎比較年輕啊 她沒辦法體會 她說什麼這個壯世代的這個產業經濟 像我們這些年老的我們現在都需要啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
10156.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
10184.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
對不只是連長者有經驗的傳承或那些年輕人在這個在這個壯世代產業裡面他們會盡很多心力都照顧一下我們這些壯世代好不好一起努力希望今天啦一方面可以速度可以快一點點啦那第二個我剛提醒很重要再這樣下去一直有某些的意見然後到後來都是保留到後來這山頭一定要過所以我們今天要做的事情比較要比較正面就是說針對兩個地方要修的趕快去補強這個是比較重要的我們盡快往前跨一步好不好共同來努力謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
10191.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
10191.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
黃靜雯委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
10217.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
10230.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
那如果不足的部分就可以再來做一個修正那我剛剛提的就是說對於這個壯世代的定義是不是可以更明確那另外就是說剛剛那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
10234.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
10254.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
張綺楷委員有特別提到就是說我覺得會有這麼多委員聯署當然對於這個每一條的內容當然覺得說這個沒有什麼問題可是問題就是說我們對於一個法案是不明確定義不明確的你叫行政機關要怎麼去執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
10256.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
10283.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
完全不明確那主責單位也不明確主責單位到底是衛福部、勞動部、教育部、經濟部各部會或者是更高的這個層級行政院到底是誰要來主責這個完全都不明確的情況之下你就要把這個條文就直接這樣子通過其實我覺得這樣也不太好另外我們可以保留在委員會如果今天大家有一些意見的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
10285.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
10298.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
就保留在委員會不一定要出委員會嗎就保留在委員會我們可以再來討論那如果說這麼草率就讓他出去其實我覺得不好的我也認為就是說目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
10302.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
10316.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這個45歲或者是更高45歲到64歲這個中高齡或65歲這個高齡其實65歲以上很多長者其實他們現在都還在工作甚至我爸爸現在八十幾歲他也還在工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
10317.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
10342.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
他也還在工作啊所以我覺得說只要我們現在勞動部或衛福部這邊我們有一些政策的一個配套或者是鼓勵這個企業鼓勵讓這些這個中高齡或高齡者有這樣一個就業的機會其實我覺得這個都很好不一定要侷限在一個名稱如果說這個名稱你定義都不清楚的話其實我覺得你 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
10343.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
10365.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
即使讓他出委員會然後到最後表決好照吳委員的這個版本通過那行政單位沒辦法執行我覺得這樣也很奇怪我們在我們今天這麼多委員在這邊這個立法或者是要修法其實最主要就是要讓這個法更完備更完整那行政單位也要能夠執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
10366.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
10391.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
好,如果完全不能執行,你就一個法放在那邊,那到最後,後面的人在追說,啊為什麼這已經通過了,啊然後沒有設辦公室,或者是沒有設基金,或者是,啊這個這個要怎麼怎麼做,那行政單位也許跟你講說,啊現在我們就已經有在做了,好,已經中高齡或高齡的這個就業什麼都已經有在做了,啊你要怎麼說,對吧,所以我覺得說我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
10393.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
10394.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
海洋委員會第8屆立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
10415.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
10441.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那個時候要成立的時候就是一個邱文彥委員還有一個田秋晴委員兩個人就一個民進黨一個國民黨非常非常非常堅持楊耀文你應該有印象吧然後一直搞搞到最後是真的通過了三讀啦哇大事啊現在行政機關說我們大家要怎麼處理所以那個海洋委員會那個法通過之後過了好幾年 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
10442.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
10465.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
海洋委員才成立所以那個就是先立法然後後來成立成立到現在廣媽在當主委所以這個是有權力不過大家如果對這個很有意見的話我還是認為因為民進黨黨團的意見是到要做那個政黨協商所以我們也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
10467.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
10487.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
因為放在委員會本身有一個問題就是沒有人沒了啦因為大家委員的意見是南沿北側所以我還是今天希望把它一條一條都處理完保留也可以都可以所以大家盡量發言盡量把它釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
10491.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
10499.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
那第3條大家有意見就保留保留保留那第4條第5條有修正動議我們來處理兩條變成一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
10508.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
10512.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我覺得我並不反對創立新壯世代的相關規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
10536.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
10562.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
可是我覺得這一部法律就是大概幾乎所有的條文都是訓示性的規定甚至於都是現在已經在推動的政策我比較有問題我比較有意見的是這個部分我倒不覺得說中高齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
10564.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
10591.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
這樣的定義是不能打破的因為我再強調45到55跟55以上就業消費產業的投入絕對不一樣可是比較有問題的是我們看了這個草案的內容其實它並沒有任何幾乎沒有一項是強制性要行政機關去做什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
10592.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
10614.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
沒有強制性然後呢再看目前行政機關在因為還是回到源頭因為我們有中高齡的界線所以他本來就已經有很多在推動我我我我最大的意見在這裡我都到其他我都都是沒有我我甚至於是比較贊成真的必須要區分出來裝事態 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
10616.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
10628.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
因為我們可以很明確的感知到55歲以上就業、消費包括他的經濟力跟45到55確實有差別這個是我的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
10638.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
10653.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
楊耀委員的一個說法我想基本上這個法案本來就比較是框架性的立法因為他的目的就是讓大家現在有做一點有做一點就放在一起是方便這個行政機關做一個整合因為他不是個權益法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
10653.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
10654.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
促進法案 促進法案 促進法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
10678.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
10678.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
10703.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
10703.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
10723.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
10744.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
那另外一方面這個就是照護政策衛福部在努力的這些長照照護政策是照顧所謂的不管是中度、輕度、失能、失智等等這個照護政策是存在的但是有一群也許年齡也是相當或是更年紀更大但是他還在具有這樣的一個不管是生產消費能力我認為生產跟消費能力是不會有抵觸的本來我們就鼓勵賺錢然後鼓勵來花錢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
10749.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
10754.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以如果說用這樣的來思考是不是請大家能夠想想說這個立法的重要性那這個立法基本上有些人覺得說很陌生可是有時候有時候一個人其實他努力了很久當然過幾天我的人工生殖法案很多人認為很陌生但是我努力了30年 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
10768.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
10773.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以是不是說他們有長期在耕耘這個題目的人讓他是不是能夠聽他說清楚這個講明白那另外當然你說壯世代是負面名詞嗎那我其實剛聽的時候我都沒有因為我也是女性啊我比你年紀更大我應該更接近其實如果他是一個strong我們都希望人說我們strong而不是weak而且你是老師你在保護別人你在教導別人 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
10794.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
10822.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
其實你是被視為所謂的相對強者因為你要照顧的會照顧弱勢人就是視為相對的強者所以我想這個壯世代本身的意義真不論說他是不是他根本沒有他不是個男性或歸屬女性而是一個正面的比老啦高啦這個是更positive的是一個更正面的那如果你用這樣的態度跟觀點思考每一題的時候也許你會可以做一些修正跟接受謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
10828.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
10847.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
第4條跟第5條請大家看一下那個條文非常非常的正面而且明確嘛我實在想不出來什麼理由第4第5條必須要反對我討伐大家聽第4條政府應該積極推動、輔助壯世代產業的發展並結合財稅跟金融制度、土地跟建物活化 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
10848.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
10876.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
提供壯世代產業的發展政策培植新創及產業鏈促進長壽經濟式發展這怎麼會有人反對呢?第5條政府應該建立超高齡社會的金融行動方案跟指標提供相關金融商品或投資鼓勵措施建立壯世代的金融生態同時積極提供壯世代普及的公正的金融教育強化金融勢能促進財富公平與安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
10877.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
10893.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我覺得這兩條就剛剛主席才是合併嘛就通過這種條文在保留會變成笑啦那另外齁我們剛剛這樣討論下來有兩個點齁大家可能會認為說好像是一個新的法案然後覺得有點陌生剛剛朱協工那真好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10894.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10916.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
海洋委員會當初也是這樣對不對你倡議完之後要一段時間形成更多的這個共識現在海洋委員會不是也運作得非常好嗎那你如果從全世界去看日本啊日本在1995年他進入這個超高齡社會前面他們就通過一個法叫做高齡社會對策基本法他們是由誰由他們首相親自去領導協調這個高齡的對策會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10920.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10930.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
你從國內有海洋委員會的這個例子在全世界有像日本還有很多先進國家都是針對這個高齡的來臨那現在臺灣民眾黨提出的壯世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10931.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10958.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
他有潛力可行在國外也有在世界也有啦我是希望說今天趕快把這個案子速度可以加快然後如果說真的民進黨某些人還有意見就到政黨去協商可是更重要的我們要去面對超高齡社會的來臨然後我們要提出一個有效的這個政策那至於王永遠剛才在說的你基本上也是贊成這個嘛那你說覺得說某些東西還不過具體我請有兩個解決方案你看一下喔你看剛剛被我們那個保留的你說包括你說他沒有組織架構嗎他裡面的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10961.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10983.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
第二條的定義到第三條第三條他那個組織架構他都基本上都已經定的蠻細的了如果只有不足的地方可以再做部分的補強可是我希望說那個速度是往前走的好不好今天不要好像變成每一條都保留那感覺也是怪怪的能不能例如說第四第五就讓他通過第四第五的這個你接著要補 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10986.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
11003.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
我不知道到底在擠什麼,為什麼不能讓我們在委員會好好討論那你如果講這樣子,那我問你,壯世代產業指的什麼,還長壽經濟,請我們的青海委員給我們定義一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
11007.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
11026.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這在第二條我們的提案裡面就講到壯世代的這個產業指的是什麼?活化壯世代的資產、發展長壽經濟、協助壯世代持續成為生產者、消費者之各行業所謂的技術、產品、服務、知識跟措施的開發、生產、使用、銷售跟投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
11029.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
11029.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
長壽經濟是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
11043.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
11068.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
這裏面都已經有定義你為什麼把每個東西都很細分因為我們過去都沒有聽過這個名詞本來就是一個比較結果性的解釋因為我覺得這個法裏面如果把它講清楚你長久推那麼多的活動把它講清楚我們不會有太多意見就是有很多東西不是這麼清楚的時候你們如果今天要來判這個法我們也沒有特別有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
11069.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
11084.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
像名詞上壯世代如果只是一個口號沒有問題本來就有中高齡我說從學理上面找不出來如果你把那個假設真的很喜歡喊這個口號的話就把中高齡跟高齡促進法就會促進法把它改成壯世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
11085.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
11086.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
立法院第11屆第2會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
11103.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
11103.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
李慧琼議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
11130.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
11132.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
好 我們現在請那個我們金管會林志憲處長用法律的陳述來表達一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
11163.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
11190.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝謝主席各位委員好那事實上這個這個關於金融部我們事實上常常到那個委員辦公室去做良善的溝通那因為這條文的部分我還是跟各位長官報告一下因為如果按照修正動議是把第5條刪除拿到第4條第2項嘛那跟各位報告現在第4條的文字裡面有一個財稅加了一個財稅啦但財稅夜間財政部沒來我也不知道財政部到時候會不會有什麼問題這個我不知道那就針對我們金管會有說明一下啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
11190.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
11218.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
因為這裏面的話就是文字的部分的話金融商品或投資也跟各位委員報告我們不大適合建議你要去投資什麼啦所以這方面改成服務比較好因為我們大部分都說金融商品跟服務嘛金融商品服務那後面有兩個文字的部分像建構壯世代金融生態系還有所謂的提供壯世代的一個普及跟公正的一個教育其實金融教育跟金融教育這部分沒問題但是各位委員報告我們金融教育是整面性在提供的 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
11219.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
11238.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
但是我之前有跟委員辦公室也跟大家討論過我們可以針對壯世代這個議題大家多去多關注多關注但是我很難把它接說這個是壯世代金融教育而且這裡面寫說是一個公正因為我們金融教育本來就是要符合整個商業的一個邏輯可能是文字那還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
11238.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
11241.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
也跟委員報告建構《壯世代》的金融世代體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
11260.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
11285.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
我可不可以問一下就是說這個第4條的修正動議上面有寫一個那個金融商品投資鼓勵措施那壯世代的金融商品是什麼跟我們報告其實事實上我們之前也在討論的目前我們有好幾個其實那個不是完全就是它是整體性的我簡格最簡單的信用商業像我們一個之前不是說保單 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
11286.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
11286.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
11314.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
11323.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
那你要有一個定義啊你壯世代的金融商品你是什麼樣的商品那是壯世代好55歲以上的金融商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
11324.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
11349.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
我其他的金融商品我就不可以嗎?對啊我覺得那你壯世代的這個金融服務又是什麼?跟一般的不是壯世代的金融服務又是什麼?那你們有什麼樣的差別?跟委員報告所以說當初我才建議說這個要建構整個那個所謂的壯世代的那個生活金融太陽要拿掉就是這個理由啦就委員就這個理由因為我沒辦法去切割 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
11349.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
11350.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
施政委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
11365.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
11389.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
你立這個壯世代你就沒辦法執行啊所以我剛剛講的啊我們要立法就是我們立了之後完備讓行政單位可以去執行或是其他金融單位可以執行那你今天立了這個法完全沒辦法你剛剛講了沒辦法這樣一刀切沒辦法這樣去執行的話那你立一個法就是給大家沒辦法去執行的一個法我感覺說立這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
11391.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
11392.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
其實就像檢探辦公室一樣我想在幾年前沒有檢探這個觀念 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
11414.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
11441.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
沒有減碳這個觀念現在碳都還可以拿來買賣這不是一個很新的觀念嗎所以其實人口的危機不會比環境危機來得更小這個叫做天翻地覆不會更小所以我同意吳委員我剛剛同意就是說壯世代現在行政單位已經有在做的中高齡及高齡我覺得定義更清楚其實也不是不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
11442.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
11465.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
那為什麼現在就是剛才一開始就提過了現在用老人用引法族用中高齡這一些都已經被高度污名化那所以呢現在我講說這個污名化會產生什麼問題我們現在中高齡是法定的名字叫45歲那我可以講現在台灣已經有一半的人是中高齡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
11466.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
11483.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
臺灣現在今年平均年齡超過45歲也就一半的人是中高齡65歲是法定老人但是呢到2070年我們臺灣會有一半的人超過65歲臺灣就是一半老人 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
11484.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
11512.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
然後這個會產生一名想剛才金管會一樣金管會很多最近包括解除了說期貨你知道70歲不可以買賣不可以開期貨賬戶你知道嗎我們很多的金融商品有很多的年齡限制的你超過幾歲不能買什麼保險層層的限制包括上市櫃公司也是金管會在管轄上市櫃公司現在幾乎不太聘用45歲以上的員工 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
11513.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
11538.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
也就是我們一半的人是不被聘用的然後另外交通部要沒收75歲以上的你要重新考駕照這不是年齡歧視嗎教育部對於終身教育師對於600萬的現在60歲以上的教育預算一年就是6億平均每個人一年的教育費用只有100塊台幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
11542.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
11558.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
數位部完全不管高齡者的數位落差達到60%包括臺北市中心一樣我們跟消極會的一個調查80%的50歲以上的人在消費過程當中有感受到被歧視 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
11560.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
11580.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
所以這個一直在講說為什麼我們現在的現行措施是不足的是不夠的不能只有這樣子的方式是無法解決這個問題的不是說行政單位有在做因為有在做的方法你沒有翻轉你沒有大幅的改變沒有把從引法作為的改變改變從人設的改變轉翻轉到壯世代的改變是一條無法解決的問題謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
11590.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
11618.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好 王委員 王振旭委員好 我先跟大家報告一下我想針對第4條跟第5條合併看起來是一個方向而且比較有一致性那不過剛剛大家有引用那個林宗鴻就是中央研究院社研所的研究員他有一份報告大家也都非常清楚他裡面有提到其實他針對壯世代的另外一個族群比較年輕的 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
11620.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
11646.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
他把它稱為崩世代崩就是崩結了崩就是說另外一群事實上是相對是弱勢弱勢是指經濟的弱勢因為從那個數據分析來看那目前在所講的壯世代是臺灣所得最高啦最高賺錢的擁有的資產我相信大家的感受應該差不多多少因為我們曾經很努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
11647.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
11672.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
現在還在努力當中所以有付出有所得是應該的而且也實質得到回饋可是我們年輕人是不是就崩世代就不努力了這個當然要有待研究可是相對來講他們的確是比較弱勢我現在比較擔心就是說如果從不同的世代來看這個問題如果我們今天入法直接在第4條跟第5條 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
11673.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
11703.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
透過這種方式來呈現的話到時候對於另外一個族群也應該說那是不是因為有了這個入法以後剛才他剛才講到下來不管是金融的啦或者是其他的一些希望真的壯世代有更好的輔助或是更好的一些產業的發展另外來講相對般若感會不會更讓他們感受到臺灣未來照顧全民的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
11703.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
11723.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
除了我們要透過這個法來照顧壯世代的同時那會對於我們的崩世代如何又有效的去規範或者是引導他們對台灣的整體的經濟或整體的幸福感是有一致性的所以這部分可能在文字上也要多琢磨以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
11725.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
11738.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那個金管委,這第4條,第5條要合併齁,你看看怎麼改,我想這條改改會通過啦,不然每條都保留到老闆的,我就改不? |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
11743.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
11759.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
那你要怎麼改?壯世代的金融生態、壯世代的服務,那你跟一般人的那個55歲以下的那個金融服務是差別在哪裡? |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
11761.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
11781.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
其實文報其實剛剛也跟我們報告說事實上是一致的啦只是說因為《壯世代》剛才我跟文報上是一致的所以說沒辦法退一切但是事實上只能夠針對《壯世代》多去做一些總括但是如果條文來看要單獨去提個《壯世代》這部分確實我們有作業上的困難對啊那所以那個相關的問題才剛才有一些建議啊抱歉抱歉這有點邏輯的問題事實上 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
11784.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
11811.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
你終究沒有定壯世代這個事實上這個目前你有在做嘛你中高齡你經過這個就有在做嘛對不對有嘛你現在不是我現在做的包括金融偶舉金因為這裡有寫一個說要針對壯世代做所謂的公正跟公正的對啦我意思就是說我現在急著要釐清啦現在不是說用壯世代這個名詞好像是一個新創的東西這個新創然後以前的這個保險或產業就不見了不是這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
11812.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
11818.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
其實都在做嘛這是第一個點邏輯這個要更清楚第二個沒有什麼一刀切的問題你說這個壯世代這個產業只有那個壯世代才能做嗎聽我說聽我說這個年輕人更應該做啊所以才不會變成剛剛那個王委員講的變成崩世代啊他是全民受惠的嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
11837.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
11854.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
整個你說就是例如說女性的這個產業或者是青少年就規定只有青少年在做嗎女性只有女女性的錢女性有做到現在壯世代裡面有一個很重要的所以我只有兩個邏輯很重要第一個就是他目前已經有在做他是一個先試性跟整合的那第二個不是所謂的一刀切也不是只有老 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
11862.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
11870.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
這壯世代在做這個壯世代產業是年輕人要一起做你現在在做的是中高齡或者是高齡的金融商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
11871.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
11873.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
現在壯世代金融,像我們有綠色金融,什麼叫綠色金融? |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
11897.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
11918.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
就是說有重視環境保護的公司的一種經濟嘛有重視壯世代這種讓他活絡的就是他是一個表示一個對這種精神企業文化CSR的一個重視的一個金融的一個方向嘛不會有一個產品就叫做什麼壯世代產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11918.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11933.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
可是你這邊就寫壯世代金融生態系啊到底是什麼綠色金融生態系這完全是模仿那個我們的綠色金融的一個的寫法那綠色金融不是更奇怪不是啦那你們有針對壯世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11937.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11960.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
壯世代我現在是要知道說你現在已經在做的是中高齡及高齡的金融商品及金融服務那未來如果改成壯世代壯世代這樣會有什麼不一樣我這樣說明金融商品跟服務這在我們那個金保法也有類似的文字他概念裡面是金融商品跟服務是我們本來就要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11961.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11982.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
很多商品的發展都是其實我們各業法的部分包括金融保險都是一樣金融商業跟服務是我們一個推動的方向我剛要報告的是說因為現在這個文字裡面特別針對就是說單獨列出來就比如說要我鑽世代一個所謂圈或是說針對一個教育但是我很難去外面在宣導說我今天這個金融教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11982.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
12004.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
只有55歲就是壯世代才能夠來進來這樣我可能也沒辦法做啊一定是整體性來做之下那針對就剛剛吳委員講的綠色金融是一個很大的一個範圍嘛對不對那我是針對這一塊的部分又特別去做關注但是我沒辦法就是另外把它弄出來啦對對所以我才剛給跟委員報告說這部分我們才會有一些意見跟疑議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
12005.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
12019.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
是這個概念那還有一個是財稅那個跟主席報告還有一個財稅你財稅的部分我因為我特別有拜登財稅會加給一個公平但是你財稅要做什麼這部分可能也要跟財務部做討論因為那個當初的那個版本的話第5條並沒有財稅的文字那現在修正東西現在都有一個財稅 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
12027.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
12028.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
是不是把那個財稅拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
12054.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
12060.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
全項之金融制度就財稅級三個字拿掉這樣拿掉可能會比較順吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
12069.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
12098.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
如果從現況來看的話那個所謂的一個商品跟投資要變成服務啦因為我們現在不可能建議說任何的年齡程序做投資啊那還有那個建構壯世代的金融生態系這個文是建議刪除啦因為確實剛剛有報告過還有那個提供就是就是只要寫同時積極那個提供金融這樣那個所謂的壯世代的普及跟公正這文字也建議刪除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
12098.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
12116.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那最後面那個促進財務安全跟公平這部分可能要拿掉,因為財稅已經拿掉了。那你全部都拿掉刪掉,那你要直接來,你講一下。好,我們會比較厲害啦,只是說我們是從我們的文字上面表現,其實我剛剛講,我們一定要想辦法能夠做啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
12116.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
12117.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
我覺得處長講得非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
12139.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
12162.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這個第4條,第5條合併喔,你又一套又打到沒打到,全教你了,先通過這條沒什麼爭議啦,這沒什麼爭議,你不要壯世代,你要拿掉就拿掉嘛這條裡面涉及三項,那我經管會其中是一項啦,那我剛才有表...柴水已經拿掉啦其他還有什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
12176.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
12200.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
現在這樣子跟你目前的那個中高齡你現在在做的中高齡的有有什麼差別沒有差別對啊沒差別為什麼還要再弄一個壯世代金融商品 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
12201.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
12224.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這樣不是就為了改成壯世代而改嗎?我都覺得這樣真的所以我從一開始講的壯世代的定義把它定義為中高齡及高齡其實我覺得這樣子也是可以就壯世代原本在做的然後做的不完備的然後再做一個修正我覺得這是可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
12228.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
12256.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
主席因為這個大家討論很久了第4條跟第5條到底應該要怎麼樣基本上這個行政機關要考量的是說這個其實都是原則性的原則性的所以這個然後跟第二條趙偉因為這個跟第二條第二條是保留嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
12258.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
12283.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
會有連帶的會有互動會有連帶的是不是大家也討論了是不是這個就先一樣先保留了那行政機關我是覺得說行政機關這個你們回去之後再去實際的去考量因為這個很新的東西我們不要去去這個阻擋這個新的東西我們應該是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
12285.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
12307.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
有這樣的一個方向我們怎麼樣把它立得更好然後因為這個是這個原則性的所以當然法律名稱我們現在是保留嘛未來也可以考量基本法的這樣的一個名稱所以這個部分那因為這個壯世代一直在 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
12308.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
12334.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
這幾年一直在很多的專家協議者都在推動所以我們這個做行政機關的也不要落後以上謝謝現在是第一個連名稱都有疑慮啦帶來就是壯世代的年齡你要保留所以來第4條第5條還有修正動議的第4條保留那我們現在看第6條 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
12337.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
12339.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
第6條這又一件我沒辦法第6條沒意見這應該好...沒有...沒有那個啦沒有真理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
12354.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
12361.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
好第6條通過了來第7條第6條變成第5條修正動議嗎?第6條又修正動議嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
12370.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
12397.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
好 這個修正動議是前項是研究專責單位應建立壯世代國家資料庫及資訊系統共享平台促成公私力部門及協助機構之合作以促進壯世代政策產業就業之研究與法規原定沒見 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
12404.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
12427.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
委員這邊要成立專責的研究單位因為涉及到政院的組織人力經費的整體規劃剛應該跟第三條一起討論嘛可是第三條保留的話你放在這邊說要通過不是也很怪嗎所以我想問行政院你怎麼去理解而且這有個名詞我也不太懂就壯世代研究資源指的是什麼意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
12428.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
12454.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
否則就要請我們的吳委員解釋就那個研究這因為現在好像每一這法裡面每一部分都要掛如果掛壯世代可是第二條壯世代這個定義就不清楚了然後我們現在每一條現在要討論那前面都沒有辦法解決然後要討論後面可是每一條都會掛壯世代這三個字可是前面又定義不清楚啊所以想問一下好 另外一個我剛剛講第三條就已經保留的 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
12455.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
12458.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
第6條跟第5條的修正動議都一起保留再來第7條 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
12495.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
12496.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
對阿這期阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
12525.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
12530.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
你第7條修正動議是要刪除併到第6條第7條修正動議是刪掉併到第6 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
12546.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
12546.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
12565.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
12582.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
因為第7條他修正東西是刪除那有併到第4條但是第4條我們已經保留了所以這個第7條就刪除大家有沒有意見就是你原來的第7條第7條刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
12588.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
12591.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
第7條保留還是刪除?第7條併入第4條那第4條是保留所以這個也保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
12607.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
12632.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
現在是這樣嗎?那保留是不是還是,如果要放到第4條還是要讓我們發言啊?沒有啦,他第7條已經整個內容移到第4條啊,第4條我沒保留,那這個第7條就給他刪掉了啦,保留也沒意思啊。整個全部的內容都移到第4條嗎?那就要讓我們發言啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
12635.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
12635.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
立議結束 花園 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
12655.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
12681.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
第2章禁止聯名歧視,第4章促進失業者就業重疊,第13條、14條跟專法的第10條跟第34條重疊,所以這兩部法律都是特別法。所以想問一下,特別法優先於普通法的時候,新法優於舊法,那本法通過,假設這個法正通過的話,在中高齡及高齡者就業促進法之後,透過之後的法律效果會不會造成 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
12681.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
12708.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
除了本法的第2條、第1項、第7條、第13條、第14條與《中高齡就業專法》相似的部分適用還是架空《中高齡就業專法》的相關規定。第二個是要問的是直接拿掉勞動政策這幾條本法的內容就少掉20%那勞動部有什麼處理的建議那第三個要問的是請問就業促進手段是不是只有媒合培訓機制所以請勞動部這邊回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
12711.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
12740.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
跟委員報告,就是一開始勞動部在這個案子有跟各位報告過,就是我們在大院的治理下在109年有通過了中高齡及高齡者就業促進法,針對45歲以上到65歲以及65歲以上都有一些相應的措施在進行,不管是就業歧視,不管是在職者的穩定就業,或者失業者的重返職場,或者是退休者的在就業,都有一些相應的規定在做。 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
12741.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
12764.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
那確實在55歲以上的部分有一些特殊的狀況所以我們針對55歲也推出了一些相關的措施那目前這樣一部法律其實在就業的部分寫的是相對是比較概括的規定但我們最終還是會回到中高齡及高齡者就業促進法相應的措施去做所以不會有漢格的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
12765.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
12793.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
那至於其他的部分會涉及到其他的面向那因為相關部會都在那部分就不是勞動部可以處理的我們只是在表達在就業的部分確實55歲以上需要做一些處理我們在中高年級高齡者就業促進法之前在大院還有相關委員的指導下我們也做了相應的處理那有關於在這裡把它提綱竊領加一個條文去寫其實只是對我們來講沒有什麼特別的罕格和困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
12794.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
12796.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
這部分就不是勞動部可以說明的以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
12822.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
12850.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
原來的第7條齁,那我們剛剛講刪除是不對啊,要不予採納,因為這個是新的法,舊的法才要刪除這個名稱齁所以第7條不予採納,那我們進入第8條原來的第8條來,鄭天才維那個先釐清一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
12855.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
12856.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
主席我有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
12886.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
12906.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
有什麼意見?修正動議的人提出來他就是要合併他根本沒有需要那在保留那個意義是什麼?不要只是為了保留而保留就是說今天的修法若要一些進度的話我覺得剛剛那個勞動部的市長講得非常好今天這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
12907.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
12925.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
基本上它所謂壯世代它的確有一些涵蓋了我們原本的這個中高齡還有高齡就業這一些層次的問題那你應該把它視為它是一個更上位它是一個基本法它的輻射的面向其實就是更廣泛所以剛剛社長講得很好它沒有漢格的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
12926.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
12940.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
是一個更上位的概念有些基本的原則本來就是這邊強調然後他落實到我們中高齡就業的相關的法令裡面去所以這個是沒有衝突的那在這樣一個情況底下大家應該比較理性的來看待麥公從頭到尾反對到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
12944.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
12951.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
有一些可以的我覺得我們是不是有共識的行政機關也不反對的那我們是不是就讓他通過那的確立法也要審慎有疑義的我們再保留要不然從頭保留到完那我就不曉得這部法案從名稱到每一條然後連他們主張修正動議的要喊保留我不知道在保留什麼意思的啦就是大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
12968.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
12992.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
委員提出這樣的法案,也是的確他講了一個很重要,我們就是要翻轉為未來做準備嘛,坦白講如果我們大家可以有建立起這樣的共識,未來勞動部也更好推,他們現在推中高齡就業坦白講很辛苦啊,因為你沒有去傳播,你沒有去把這個概念推出去的時候,很多企業還是覺得太勇啦,這中高齡買啊,被他笑人,就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
12992.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
13017.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
很刻板的意象其實還在那這個法如果通過一個很重大的意義就是說我們社會的觀念去做一個真的是大的翻轉跟改變我早上也講過就是從一個發展性的觀點來看那剛剛那個秀芳委也有講一句我覺得認同啊就是說有一些我們是用補充性的就現在還做不到的在這個法裡面它涵蓋面向可以是最完整 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
13018.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
13037.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
最完整然後再落實到各部會你現在現有的再去強化不夠的再來補強那這樣子通過這個法我覺得他基本上是有意義的從早上到現在已經三個多鐘頭看中間大家那個討論就還是是沒有建立起一個共識了那這樣變成主席你要從頭保留到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
13040.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
13068.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
好啦我現在跟大家跟委員報告齁我們原來的第5條他併到第4條了那第7條他併到第...也併到第4條了齁所以我們可以把原來的第5條跟原來的第7條都不宜採納這樣就比較簡單啦好不好大家有沒有意見?這樣也記得有出於事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
13071.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
13090.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
第4條,沒有啦,他說過意見啦。你併入了,你就原來的條,嗯,把它刪掉,就叫做不予採納啦,不予採納。好,原來的第5跟第7條不予採納。好,那來,不要再有意見了啦。不予採納那個不進去啦,你要去炒,你要去炒。 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
13093.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
13093.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
主席你剛才也說要看回事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
13119.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
13135.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這就是因為我們的協商是順功,裡面可能有重複的,所以叫原始提案的人把它併,所以才併成13條,是這樣來的。你怎麼併,然後你整個法條到底是怎樣? |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
13141.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
13165.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
變成說你怎麼併來併去到底是你文字到底是怎樣我們根本都不清楚你剛剛主席只有講說第5條併到第4條第7條併到第4條原本第7條屬於採納文字到底是什麼主席你自己知道那可不可以請醫事人員念一下你怎麼併 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
13167.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
13170.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
這一個其實原條文都沒有變動只是現在把原來條文的4、5、7這都是關於經濟金融就業的並在一起成為修訂版的第4條 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
13189.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
13200.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
然後原條文的第6跟15條這是把它併在這裡第5條修正完了的第5條那第6條就是講那個醫療的這個是原條文沒有動 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
13206.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
13232.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
那第7條是併了原來的9、10、11有關教育、數位、文化的這三個本來的條文把它併在第7條因為它同性質那第8條就是併了原來的12、13、14有關觀光、農業還有地方創生的這個呢因為他們本來都各單獨一項把它併成一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
13234.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
13240.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
陳偉現在第8條主要的就是這樣子其他的內容沒有改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
13282.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
13295.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那個醫事人員我可不可以問一下可以這樣子嗎可以這樣子嗎那個醫事人員是不是回答一下我的問題可以這樣子病來病去啊病了我們都搞不清楚你現在到底在病什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
13299.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
13299.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
主管單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
13316.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
13340.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
不是要讓我們用院會的這個先做討論然後併到時候是不是那兩條全部都拿掉了是這樣嗎我想問我建議一下啦就是因為本來就有這個委員會就是吳春城委員版本嘛應該是以這個版本為主嘛那有修正動議本來就是遇到修正動議就是併進來討論啦委員會審查原則本來就是這樣子啊本來修正動議就是可以併進來討論但是併完之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
13342.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
13343.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
13356.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
13377.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
公務委員會報告我們法案在審查的時候當然是以原提案版本為主修正動議的時候修正動議是會並進來一起討論今天這個版本吳春城委員他們提的是針對他們自己原本的版本提修正的版本那內容上剛才我們說第4條 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
13378.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
13378.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
委員吳春城 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
13398.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
13415.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
把他併起來的話沒有影響到他原本的提案的時候呢那是可以先就併這個部分來做一個共識啊如果說大家有共識的話那就可以就是把這個保留的部分就把它用併的條文沒有共識所以就先保留啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
13425.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
13439.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
13456.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
13476.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
我可不可以再跟大家說明一下其實這個可以看得出行政單位基本上都是接受這個法案的壯世代大部分都已經在配合跟執行行政單位沒有太大的問題跟干擱包括行政院現在都在推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
13477.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
13499.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
包括跟大家講的一個其實在民間壯世代不是一個新名詞現在你去Google已經非常龐大的包括這種週刊所有都在採用壯世代然後在民眾當中的反應是很迴響我也希望這一個法案是分黨派的其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
13500.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
13514.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
我們的民進黨的我們的書記長、幹事長蔡依、書記長跟副書記長、蔡依、李昆城他們都是連署包括我們這一次在座也有好幾位民進黨的連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
13516.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
13529.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
那所以呢我覺得這個是一個新的時代來臨我們現在舊的措施的確是沒辦法解決這問題的所以大家呢要攜手努力共同來推過來能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
13533.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
13535.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
臺灣在29天進入超高零社會的時候能夠給大家一個一個積極的回應一個表示我們有能力來處理這個超高零社會的問題以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
13568.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
13590.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
如果併案的話委員也有意見那我們就全數保留啦那就是原來的提案跟修正東西的提案全部都保留然後我們繼續往下走到最後每一條都保留我也會給他送出宴會送到宴會跟政黨協商我們在這邊拗拗拗拗不完再再再就像林業齊講的再兩年也沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
13593.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
13606.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
這你講的嘛 你講兩次 你想講延宕兩年 在這好好討論好啦 那我們現在就討論原來的第8條好不好 來來 王委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
13616.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
13623.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
政府應從壯世代作為國家發展動力之觀點藉醫療投資增進智慧精準醫療以維護壯世代身心健康並涉及壯世代政策之預防、保健、心理衛生、醫療、復健 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
13644.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
13666.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
與連續性招募進行規劃、推動及監督等事項。﹖這個的確是對於壯世代來講有別於其他的年齡層可能有他特殊的需要現在我們知道那五十五歲以上當然身體他們進程會不太一樣所以他的確是需要有一些處理模式不過其實我們衛福部國健署 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
13666.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
13680.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
這方面也做很多所以將來如果能夠有效的去做整合也的確要考驗我們這個衛福主管機關這方面的努力比較特別要提醒的就是醫療跟復健 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
13683.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
13707.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
這個基本上這是一種需求啦人一定是有感覺我們都要去看醫療復健就是因為當中有哪一些器官或者是功能輸去影響以後他才會做復健所以這部分如果把它放在這邊的話也許監督好像有一點點道理不過我們要監督什麼東西這不是搞得很清楚這部分是不是大家再討論一下以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
13719.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
13723.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
好,那這一條就保留,那第9條,原來的第9條 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
13747.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
13754.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
現在的9、10、11談的是教育、數位、文化我們把它併為一條現在就第7條9、10、11喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
13782.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
13782.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
暫停會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
13799.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
13820.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
主席、各位委員,因為教育部在推動55歲的族群,我們是依據《終身學習法》的一個規定去規劃相關有關於高齡者的一個活動。然後第二個部分,其實我們有訂定了高齡教育終成計畫,那也是依據在行政院的政策白皮書還有我們《終身學習法》的部分去推動有關這方面的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
13823.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
13844.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
業務第三部分是其實我們依據這樣的中學學習法推動的學習那他其實主要的一個族群跟委員所提到的壯世代55歲其實是一致的那所以現在部裡面已經在課證研擬有關於第三人生大學的一個示範計畫來滿足他第三人生的一個需求那至於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
13846.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
13861.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
第7條裏面有談到的一個數位平權跟有關於信用化部分,我想應該這是要相關部會的共同處理,這個就可能要請相關部會來做一下說明以上。數位部的陳副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
13883.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
13912.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
委員好就是有關那個數位發展部的部分就是我們針對數位平權的部分我們一直持續在進行一些數位的經用調查還有訂定一些網路的一些無障礙的一些數位平權的作業那至於是數位落差的部分我們其實是有搭配就是各個部會包含交易部還有那個衛福部我們其實都有 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
13912.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
13913.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
13938.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
13954.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
有關這個地條有談到教育跟數位的這部分這就是讓第三人生積極參與那其實這兩個部會現在都很積極跟壯世代在合作教育部已經要事辦第三人生大學 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
13955.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
13979.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
蘇發部因為我們現在的數位落差不在城鄉而是在年齡年齡的落差到60%那我們看了蘇發部原來過去所推定的什麼熱領好幫手幾乎效率很差但是一旦採用了壯世代的這種新的概念之後事實上是很受歡迎的那這些實際的效果都看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
13980.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
13999.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
所以大家既然在落實,落實之中沒有問題,是不是我們立法部門也應該要助一臂之力,我們立法部門反而比行政部門還要保守,還要保守一直要把他拉回過去,而不是推向未來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
14000.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
14002.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
教育與數位平權是非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
14020.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
14047.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
就是大家不要就是全盤民進黨的委員不要全盤否定這部法事實上他所宣示的或者是想要引領的方向我個人認為還是一個進步的方向那這個部分應該是要共同來支持而且如果我們在法上面有這樣子去定的話那未來更可以督促包括像數位部跟教育部在這個部分可以更加大力道就是全力來推展 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
14052.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
14081.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我也是想要呼應這一條其實我也在講我們在地方上去這個關懷據點有一次我非常的訝異他有各種的課程的英文課程、日文課程甚至跳舞、打鼓什麼的可是我有一次去參加了一個課程他在教用ChatGPT怎麼寫父親節的卡片這一堂課非常多人上我很訝異所以我認為這個東西我想身為一個年輕世代我們常常也遇到的問題都是需要幫就是稍微年長一點的要幫他處理這個數位的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
14082.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
14092.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
那我想現在既然行政部門也都有在做包含教育或者速發部那這一條我們是不是就給他通過因為看起來也沒有任何應該不會有任何的爭議性那以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
14103.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
14121.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
主席針對第7條我這邊可不可以再確認一下因為在上個禮拜有跟吳春城委員去參加遠見及抗建雜誌他們推一個白皮書是有關超高齡社會該社會整體應該有的一個白皮書 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
14122.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
14150.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
那其中有提到第三人聲第三人聲大家覺得是非常重要而且是爭奪於即將進入到有機會有第三人聲不管是之前因為沒有受過好的教育或者是希望他能夠有更多的教育機會的親民下屬提出來的我的問題是說目前我們所有法案裡面有沒有第三人聲這樣的一個名詞如果沒有的話那這邊是不是也需要真的第三人聲做比較清楚的立法說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
14160.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
14161.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
民進黨委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
14184.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
14212.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
實行部門沒辦法執行的話我覺得這大概後來那定制法也沒有什麼很大的用意在所以如果沒有把名詞像什麼長壽經濟什麼一堆這種名詞甚至我說壯世代這個連這個名詞都已經跟學理上不符合的時候那這樣整個法裡面都會一直在提到壯世代壯世代甚至現在又創造出一個新名詞叫做第三人生我也不知道這個名詞代表有沒有定義講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
14213.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
14240.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
講清楚的話我們才能夠繼續走下去說到底未來要怎麼執行以上剛好講到現在這個社會當中像比如說綠色經濟、比特幣這都是時代演進都有很多的新名詞現在太多這種名詞了那如果我們現在要每一個都去質疑第三人生 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
14241.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
14266.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
幾乎已經是一個通常性的沒有人會質疑的已經到了常識的成績了包括教育部都已經要成立第三人生大學了我們是不是要糾葛在這裡以上第三人生呢民法第729條就有了第三人生然後還有其他相關的法例 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
14267.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
14296.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
所以我們自己也可以去查一下其他法律不只這條不只民法729條其他的法律也有第三人審以上那我們原來條文的第9條第10條第11條併入第7條的修正動議的第7條併進去大家有沒有意見沒有意見好那 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
14299.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
14317.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
主席,剛剛委員你講的民法729條,第三人生存期內,不是什麼第三人沒有這樣的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
14318.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
14346.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
對啦 不要亂講啊所以主席主席我今天要講的就是說我們立法委員立法就是要真的非常的完備不要說立一個法結果沒辦法執行我今天這一句話已經講了好幾次了立一個法然後定義不明沒辦法執行其實這個不是人民之福啊所以我還是希望就是說大家充分的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
14347.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
14359.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那剛剛就是很多條併來併去啊好幾條都這樣子併在一起其實我也看回什麼什麼只是我們希望就是說大家要充分的討論啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
14361.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
14378.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
我當然我也很佩服我們那個吳委員他在推動這個壯世代那我也認同就是壯世代可是如果壯世代定義都不清楚的話而且大家都有意見的話我覺得真的是要再討論那我剛剛提的壯世代如果可以更清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
14379.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
14391.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
壯世代的定義如果今天包含中高齡及高齡然後中高齡也有定義45歲以上高齡65歲以上全部把他納在壯世代其實我覺得這樣也很好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
14397.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
14420.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
各位學長姐,雖然這是我第一屆第一年了,但是我還記得在前陣子衛福部的質詢上面,其實這也不是沒有潛力精神衛生法的心理健康促進,在一開始立法的時候也沒有把它定義清楚那後面這個行政機關認為說可以用實行細則去把它定義清楚所以我想這也不是有潛力,這也不是沒有潛力的那所以以上補充,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
14422.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
14439.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
如果每一條都要用這樣子再說明,那就表示這個法不是那麼完備啊。你看我們今天從這樣才幾條而已,如果這樣照看才8條而已嘛。如果剛剛修正動議到第8條,那我不知道後面還會再併嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
14441.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
14464.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
我反過來說,其實短短的十幾條而已,如果這樣子併來併去,然後大家都很多的疑義,我覺得真的要三思啦,不要真的立一個法,然後大家後面覺得沒辦法執行,然後定義不清,其實我覺得這樣真的,我們是立法委員,我們是在立法,立一個法大家沒辦法執行,你覺得這樣好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
14467.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
14492.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
謝謝黃昭偉因為剛剛其實有提到所以沒有再講一次那回答你的問題我剛剛聽到的是說現在教育部他們剛剛也說有在執行所謂第三人生大選嘛這不是在實行上面已經在做的事情嗎所以這個東西我想應該是沒有什麼爭議才對啊所以我剛剛講的已經在做的都是在中高齡及高齡這個政策底下嘛對不對是那個教育部是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
14495.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
14496.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
14517.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
14544.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
那我們原條文的第9條、第10條、第11條還有修正綜藝的第7條文都保留那接續等一下發便當我們休息20分鐘要吃這個嗎?不然有人說霸凌耶發便當、備用便吃,大家輕鬆一點發了齁,那我們行政單位不敢吃啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
14546.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
14557.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
行政單位我估計要吃一頓飯差不多要15分鐘啦我們休息20分鐘好了啦讓他吃便當啦不然等一下要被檢舉欸謝謝20分鐘吃便當 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
14581.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
14586.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員吳春城等42人擬具 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
14608.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
14616.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
沒有沒有,連跟委員會跟局長去看,就是,可以這樣子,這個委員會,你給我什麼話,我原諒你。這個事情只要經過委員通,也至少委員會,那就這樣,都是在, |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
14624.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
14625.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
15797.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
15804.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
好 我們現在繼續開會 王一鳴委員也要程序發言 現在都亂了 現在在程序發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
15807.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
15822.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
主席我先程序發言一下我要請教一下那個我們的預算處理因為那個黃秀芳召委她在下個禮拜一她要排勞動部的預算的詢答然後下個禮拜一就要截止收案我想這個違反了過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
15823.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
15823.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
處理預算慣例 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
15840.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
15860.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
這是一個合理的程序但是當天質詢當天就截止收案我想這個有剝奪這個各委員辦公室再深入去探究這一些透過質詢當中去發掘到的新問題然後再提案的這樣的一個權利所以我在這邊建議希望黃秀芳召委可以從善如流這個部分是不是在給委員們彈性的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
15863.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
15888.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
就是再多一個禮拜的時間再收完因為基本上這不影響任何這個預算的審查排案因為下禮拜是黃修芳委員再下禮拜是蘇清泉委員他要下下個禮拜才會輪到這個實質的預算審查所以我特別因為今天有蠻多我們衛環委員會的委員在這邊因為今天才收到這一個我覺得這個是相對在處理上可能不夠周延希望朝委可以調整謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
15893.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
15896.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
說不定他們倆在互相執行,不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
15903.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
15925.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
謝謝那個王委員有特別提到其實在第10屆第8會期勞動部的預算巡打也有這樣就是112年11月16號那當天巡打也是在當天就截止收案那內政委員會在今年11月13號在會議當中也是就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
15927.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
15942.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
11月27日才詢答,11月22日就截止收案,因為我們也是依循往例,一方面也是議事人員的作業程序,當然就是說議事人員那時候我們排的時候,議事人員也沒有說不行。 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
15943.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
15943.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
15986.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
16015.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
立法院有處理預算的程序跟原則我覺得我們應該要依照一般正常的原則剛剛黃昭偉提到的那個都是比較特殊的情況我剛已經強調了為什麼要不然立法院也可以不用安排這個詢答就直接提案嗎就是說這個其實是在審查預算過程當中要走的SOP一定像我們蘇昭偉安排的就很好對不對你先衛福部的詢答完之後你給大家充分的時間到下個禮拜喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
16016.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
16024.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那個蘇清泉文同樣的審衛福部的預算你看人家是怎麼做的他是巡打完之後截止日是什麼時候12月5號 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
16027.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
16028.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
王委員我在上禮拜開會通知就已經發出去了啦不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
16054.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
16064.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
不是用開會通知處理我覺得你只舉第10屆的某一次這個完全違反我也不是新進的委員我第8屆第9屆都帶過未換委員會按照慣例就是應該先尋答尋答當天召委再宣告而且召委的宣告也必須尊重所有委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
16075.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
16075.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
姜蕾娜議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
16093.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
16122.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
大家是達成這樣的共識這件事情真的沒有必要吵我只是在講一個合理而已對那我現在要反應我就覺得你們應該善意的回應啊就是這樣子你那個不是慣例嗎慣例就是像我們蘇清泉委員這樣的做法嗎我們以前都擔任過召委召委就是要尊重所有的委員先詢答當天在說 收案截止的時間這個就是正常的做法你剛剛舉的那個不是慣例啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
16133.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
16147.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
我的建議因為立法委員大家其實都是希望互相尊重我們其實不要花很多的時間在這裡萬一莊委你那天排了這個事情現場如果不順利的話質詢給你帶來很多的刁難其實你也很困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
16150.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
16179.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
所以我的建議因為剛剛那個委員有講到我們內政委員會的確是如此然後但是呢我們也私底下跟召委談了就是說是不是這個問題可以不要弄得那麼樣的這個針鋒相對所以我的建議大家和諧可能討論一下是不是就不要對就不要用的那麼樣的硬性的規定其實呢在議事的這個運作下面那麼樣的意思這麼樣的硬性規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
16180.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
16187.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
不利於未來要草野協商或審理預算,其實對召委來講會更辛苦。以上建議,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
16207.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
16231.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
我充分建議因為今天主要是在審查壯世代的這個法案那如果依照我們經驗分享就是剛剛我非常贊同高經所說的是以和諧為主因為這個也沒有硬性什麼規定但是就是以不影響到這個召委在排成他的排成就是說呢他要決 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
16233.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
16258.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
質詢完、詢答完那要下一次要審查預算的時候不影響這個那這個時間都可以融通我是覺得應當是如此那一般一般我們的經驗分享就是說當召委的他都會在主席台來做宣布什麼時候我們的收案會收到什麼時候大概都會這樣子然後我是用經驗跟他分享因為宣布委員也是很溫柔的會很溫柔 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
16260.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
16261.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
藍綠牌都很和諧 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
16284.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
16291.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
那大概就是一個原則不影響到審查預算的排程這個時間點都是彈性處理這以上我建言 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
16303.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
16328.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
我在這邊也是很希望黃昭瑋可以再多給我們一點彈性的時間因為其實有很多勞動部的預算是民進黨委員很關心的要不是看到這兩週有一些新聞比如說我們新任的紅部長去考察以前勞發署署長的辦公室才發現電費是到3萬度一個月3萬度做了一些職災還有洋藥委員質詢的啊就業安定基金花了多少錢在辦演唱會結果下個禮拜一紅部長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
16333.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
16351.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
報告這個預算審查那我們都還沒有問他問題他這個詳細的報告也都還沒出我們什麼譜都還沒看到然後我們就要開始審查預算就要close掉了那我認為我剛看了一下勞動部114年的就業安定基金又預計要花280億台幣勞動部公務預算預計要花2859億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
16357.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
16370.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
那很多民進黨委員其實也很關心以前這些錢是怎麼用的所以我們應該要在這個場域好好的給我們一點時間審查預算才可以避免未來你們很不想看到這種事又再發生嘛不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
16373.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
16379.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
我講一個,因為我是12月9號排詢答那我在下一週是12月18、19是排預算審查那像這樣子的話,因為勞動部他們也要去溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
16395.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
16424.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
不是說委員提出來然後都沒有一定要去溝通啊所以這樣子議事人員把那個所有的提案整理完之後然後勞動部又去溝通其實我是我再說一次我是12月9號尋答那我上禮拜我已經把文發出去那12月9號的下午截止收案齁那隔一個禮拜18、19排那個預算的審查是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
16425.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
16447.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
對啦 阿水也要給人家公佈 阿不然就是隔天 阿不然就是隔天對阿 我沒有時間阿 我覺得是八十九阿 對啦所以 今年 今年的院會是延到1月21號啦 對啦 不急啦 不急啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
16450.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
16453.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
尊敬的黃昭蕙,我聽我說,我沒有說話,尊敬的黃昭蕙,我給大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
16462.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
16482.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
對啦對啦 立法院大家都變大啦 立法院一百十三個都變大印度也都變大而已 只不過是我們選理所做印度所以搞清楚大家都 職權是一樣的所以 薛芳姐妳就下個禮拜再主席在那邊宣告 再辦一禮拜 大家集中起來我們就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
16485.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
16485.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
議事委員有夠衰 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
16515.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
16515.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
16537.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
16548.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
他收件就是說你18是實際審查預算嘛那下禮拜一直是巡達那你就是18號之前看你要15、16截止安就好了啊對不對那是召委的權利這是我們建議啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
16554.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
16570.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
主席我也想提醒一下黃昭薇因為我們之前這個陳素月委員在上一屆的時候她的同仁也因為熬夜寫預算而不幸倒下之前有發生過所以我們也希望給助理不管是議事員助理都再多一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
16572.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
16589.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
我們現在都不能對我們的助理太過苛刻晚上9點之後不能隨便打LINE打LINE算加班公務員都沒有加班費啊其實對不起那個主席有可以發言嗎其實我們秀芳招委的用意就在這裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
16596.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
16614.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
因為意思就是說假設我們今天排定審查日期的話他就必須要請大家早一點處理這個提案嘛阿如果能夠往後順延當然是沒有問題阿順延的意思就是說如果不是4849而是在其他地方的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
16622.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
16640.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
因為到時候可能還有什麼其他的協商等等的問題啊所以關鍵在於說如果我們不希望讓這些行政人員需要加班去處理這些流程的話這個是主要的考量而不是在於說為什麼一定要在那一天或者是那幾天要處理這個不再討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
16646.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
16661.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
9號巡達然後18號要處理預算18、19處理預算那你就在在這中間抓個時間點讓大家有充裕一點點啊就不會灰啊就結束啦好不要再講了啦我們接續處理第12條我們待會還可以請你們處理原來的第12條來 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
16714.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
16726.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
好 原來的12、13、14那吳春城委員跟我們委員溝通之後他們認為沒有病沒問題病起來反而有問題那最後大家的意見怎麼樣那12 有沒有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
16741.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
16741.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
16769.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
16769.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
16806.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
16808.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
16824.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
16832.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
主席我講因為第一個原來我們的第二條對壯世代那個定義就還不清楚然後你現在因為這幾條剛好都寫到這個名字這第一個第二個想問今天交通部有來吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
16855.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
16870.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
想問一下什麼叫壯世代的就是將不怎麼去理解這個壯世代觀光發展還有旅行就是旅遊的行銷品牌壯世代旅遊行銷品牌 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
16875.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
16900.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
現在行政院已經有14個部會都在推動壯世代政策他們都沒有這個疑義他們都對壯世代都沒有疑義所以剛才提到的現在很多的新事物包括剛才以前什麼AI以前沒有這個比特幣也沒有然後什麼外送也沒有共享經濟也沒有現在就是要解決的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
16901.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
16922.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
就是稱呼這些不要就是老人陰法這些都要汙名化我們要給他們一個正一個正確的身份來符合他就叫做壯世代所以呢這一個為什麼所有的部會都在歧視老人因為他們心中就是把他們當作老人 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
16923.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
16951.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
你不改變這個身份他就剛才已經舉過太多的例子當他改做壯世代的時候他們就知道方向了他們就知道政策的方向了然後各個部位就好一一的就知道該做什麼事情了你如果一直把它定義在他就是陰法族他就是老人高齡者他就會一直往那個方向弱勢的然後需要照顧需要福利的方向去擬定政策我們請觀光署 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
16955.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
16980.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
主席各位,那交通部公關署報告,那目前交通部在推動樂齡旅遊,那也是著重在中高齡及無障礙的一個旅路線,那也同時建置這個長者啦,更友善的這個旅遊環境,那也擴大這個身心障礙的一個兒童啊,或者是婦女的一個服務,那可以提供更友善的一個空間跟旅遊環境,那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
16981.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
17002.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
江部觀光署目前也在推動樂齡旅遊的認證也辦理觀光產業人才的培訓也透過職遣跟職務的再訓練鼓勵更多的中高齡長者能夠來投入觀光產業目前是江部在辦理的事項以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
17006.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
17031.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
而目前是沒有針對這個名稱做一個定義那我們推動的這個觀光品牌叫做是樂嶺的一個旅遊一下子樂嶺,一下子銀淮,一下子長青我都不知道你在說什麼來我想真的要很感謝交通部觀光單位所提出的說明就是在這個法案裡頭可以更精準的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
17032.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
17032.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
17049.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
17049.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
以上建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
17071.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
17072.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
韜靜雯 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
17091.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
17093.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
中高齡勞工的定義以45歲為分水嶺本調查沿用勞動部定義,將45歲以上通稱為壯世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
17107.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
17119.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
已經有在開會很多的公聽會了幾個部會他都去大概可能資料都在這邊我再念一下壯世代就業促進獎勵實施要點勞動部從113年2月1號已經生效了發佈的單位勞動部勞動力發展署身心障礙者及特定對象就業主然後他自113年2月1號起生效適用 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
17135.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
17141.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
身適用的對象是年滿55歲以上或年滿45歲以上依法退休者下稱壯世代勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
17154.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
17155.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
中高齡45歲以上高齡65歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
17184.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
17184.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
壯世代農民或跨域從農者 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
17200.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
17200.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
提升農業技術、農業經營 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
17217.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
17233.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
在這個中間的,比如說45歲到55歲,那我們這個要怎麼去定義,所以我是認為就是說一步法還是要讓他更完整更完備,讓其他的這個單位可以去執行,我覺得這樣是比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
17237.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
17238.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
青壯年流氓 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
17253.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
17277.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
其實這個本來就是他在年齡方面政府部門已經設定的很清楚不管你是這個中高齡高齡或者是我們現在所稱的壯世代他這個都很清楚的在他的年紀年齡方面都很清楚的說明那結盟的我們的青年這是加成作用啊這是加成作用啊所以我個人認為這沒有疑慮啊以上見言 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
17281.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
17285.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
政府應針對壯世代農民或跨域從農者提升農業技術及農業經營結合青壯年或留農或返農增加農他兩個是合作的他根本沒有抵觸啊我覺得這個有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
17305.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
17305.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
委員吳春城 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
17337.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
17359.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
黃學芳委員我從早上聽到現在黃學芳委員最關切的就是中高齡是45歲以上高齡是65歲以上那他一直希望把這個壯世代包含這兩組人都包含在內你的意思就是這樣嘛所以你是希望他的45 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
17363.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
17379.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
他沒有那麼多理解就是說這個55歲是他帶來的啦,結果剛才高津里里阿妹就是55歲,但是現在還有勞動部勞動部是說,是說55歲喔那也有45,那也有45,那到底是 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
17384.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
17385.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
中高齡及55歲的壯世代都符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
17414.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
17429.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
13條就大家原則都同意了還要保留什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
17438.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
17456.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
主席你可以這樣宣告本席建議也就是說如果在第二條你們的協商怎麼樣我們後面的條文按照第二條的協商答案這樣子去推就好啦定定之就好啦我們不要浪費時間從第二條到現在還是在討論這個問題啊我們已經在實質討論內容啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
17471.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
17473.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
應該保留啊 沒有這樣子的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
17478.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
17495.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
這兩個方案啊,第一個就是第二條如果依照名稱是怎麼樣,那後面的條序就依照你們第二條協商的結果依序去做調整,這第一個方案。阿第二個方案,第13條大家都沒意見,各單位都素息啊,但內容都一樣啊,那為什麼要保留?阿如果說還是因為爭議還要保留,那這個會議很奇怪囉。 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
17502.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
17503.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
我是覺得這個壯世代這個名稱他們現在遛在這裡而已啦年齡啦定義啦涵蓋啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
17511.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
17531.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
對啦 現在他就跟你說這後面都出了《壯世代》《壯世代》看到《壯世代》就起火了就是我們醫療的貴命了還有我覺得這樣子充分討論也很好至少在第13條大家內容都沒有意見只是《壯世代》它的定義是到底是45歲、55歲、65歲這一個定義而已對不對 至少我們充分討論已經知道內容對 內容沒問題嘛 那就等第二條那就保留吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
17541.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
17544.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
主席主席確定一下那12條所以12 13 14確定一下是保留保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
17567.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
17576.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
沒有人讓 因為前面定義不清楚 只有這個壯世代這個名稱就是沒有對啊 就是沒有辦法理清 你們就回到第二條去討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
17585.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
17610.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
主席不好意思我們覺得就是跟我們新住民基本法一樣大家都不同意不同意這樣子也沒辦法去討論我覺得是12、13我們是這個內容我們是同意的那個名字我們再來去討論是這個就是對就是讓他過不能是每一條都是壯世代每一條都不同意這個名字就不用討論了嘛後面就不用討論啦這樣就是對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
17613.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
17630.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
所以我覺得不是對討論內容同不同意那個名字我們改天再來就是來協商再來討論以上建議麥委員的那個中文素養我很欽佩謝謝謝謝謝謝非常欽佩真的阿飛勒那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
17638.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
17639.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
我從早上忍耐到現在都是和諧為要 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
17657.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
17673.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
吳主席我是充分建議啦因為今天的會議很有意義大家針對每一條的內容好好的去討論那比如說第13條大家針對內容都沒有意見那所以但是在你的壯世代裡頭這個名稱所以我具體建議第二條因為已經保留所以呢我們以下的條文因為每一條都有壯世代 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
17680.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
17702.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
那如果依照這樣子那這每一條要保留但是我是覺得建議也就是內容我們可以讓他通過但是你的名稱就隨著你第二條最後草野協商結果隨這個結果去調整你各條的一個名稱我就覺得主席台可以這麼宣布看大家寶貴的意見這樣黃秀慧你意見沒有這樣可以啦好啦好啦好啦來拍拍拍拍 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
17710.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
17728.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
就是隨著第一條第二條的定義他有什麼決定那往後的就跟著前面的協商結果好太好了太好了第12條通過那13條13條通過啦13條沒有異議通過第14條一樣嘛齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
17740.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
17740.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
17754.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
17776.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
主席以及各位委員大家好衛福部對於本條是保留的因為最主要的原因在於我要跟各位報告目前這個資料庫在我們國建署的TESA資料裡面就已經有了臺灣地區中老年身心社會生活狀況長期調查臺灣National Study in Aging理念針對家戶狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
17779.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
17799.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
居住安排、社會支持、工作以及經濟狀況、衛生行為、醫療保健等等都已經有做好相關的準備了而且我跟各位報告這是50歲以上的而且這個資料庫是從民國78年就開始我們從85年開始我個人我在中中大學教書這部分我已經發表過研究了 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
17801.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
17817.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
做這個東西在我看來不光是疊床架屋而且是業務重疊我相信各位委員基本上也都是站在這個站在那個把握民眾的這個預算上面我認為這個部分事實上是有意義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
17818.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
17833.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
所以衛福部在這邊基本上要表示我們的立場另外第二個其實剛剛委員有提到就是說第二條的那部分我要跟各位委員報告這個在整個國際上面來說確實事實上是有問題的我剛剛再說一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
17834.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
17835.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
內容形式不對內容就不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
17862.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
17869.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
我可以表示一下衛福部的資料絕對沒有問題但是他只有健康資料這就是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
17871.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
17898.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
那個差太多了我跟大家報告我跟大家報告因為我是做行銷廣告的我非常的清楚我們的社會連我們的企業當中對於50歲55家以上的投入的行銷費用的廣告費用只占到那行銷的5%也就是怎麼樣大家都不會做大家為什麼不會做因為都沒有數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
17900.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
17926.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
我們現在所有的我剛講食衣住行、娛樂你那裡有知道壯世代喜歡看什麼電影嗎你知道壯世代的消費行為是什麼嗎因為我們這個為什麼叫長壽經濟壯世代喜歡開什麼車子嗎壯世代喜歡吃什麼東西嗎喜歡穿什麼衣服嗎你有這些數據嗎你現在有的數據都只是把高齡者認為就是只要有養生養病養老的數據而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
17929.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
17951.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
這就是我們現在重要要翻轉就是我們的整個政府包括去年2023年行政院提出的高齡高齡社會白皮書出來的就是養生養病養老國科會所規規劃出來的高齡政策所有就是要去醫院以及要如何去使用醫院如何方便而已我們的政府對高齡的想像 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
17951.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
17971.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
就是只有這些而已其他的一片空白文化部沒有高齡政策教育部沒有高齡政策金融沒有高齡、數位沒有通通都沒有認為這些人就是要準備報銷的人這就是我們現在為什麼需要壯世代的一個原因因為你們都覺得他是老人他就是銀髮族他就是高齡者 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
17972.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
17973.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我覺得我們設立這個所謂的壯世代國家資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
17989.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
18015.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
不管你所謂的高齡中高齡這是非常非常非常的重要因為我們的平均餘命不健康的已經達到世界超高已經是第8已經是8年8年不健康的平均餘命這個政府有責任要怎麼樣協助人民啊十一住行育樂這些人你把他照顧好我們的國家就給力 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
18017.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
18017.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
委員吳春城 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
18038.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
18042.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我們現在已經有160萬我們日日在增加160萬的什麼的會員我們使用的有183萬多我們日日在增加這一次臺中公務節過了我們的APP絕對會超過200萬人裡面包括什麼食衣住行娛樂包括你的繳稅全部會在那裡所以我們已經是AI的世界了要跟國際接軌我們如果有這些資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
18067.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
18082.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
讓大家在整個政策決策以及執行能夠更加的有效能他不是只有效率他是要有效能這個才是真正的幫助我們的人民啊沒有一個國家的政府說要成立這個國家資料庫是反對的這個邏輯太奇怪了今天我們討論的第二條也就是45歲、55歲、65歲我們現在目前國家的資料庫裡頭沒有45歲你要不要去做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
18095.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
18096.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
謝謝,謝謝楊卓英。那個高晉你要先講嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
18116.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
18144.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
好我想要舉例一下真的不用站在太反對立場其實內政部我那天才跟他開居住正義的會我要怎麼定定定居住正義的政策居住住宅政策其實我們的政府是沒有做充分的行為研究甚至很被動所以其實民間團體有一直要求內政部應該要透過你去登記社會住宅或是你登記任何相關的福利政策你要去做行為研究這些年輕人究竟多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
18145.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
18157.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
多少年多少歲要住這個社會住宅他家有多少人口他的行為是什麼然後去訂定一個符合整個國家方針或者是解決居住政策的問題那相對的放到這裡來看也是同樣的概念如果我們認為這個解決高齡超高齡社會少子化等等問題我想這個的確是一個很重要的資料庫那反過來剛剛衛福部做的資料是很棒都是可以健康相關可是我想在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
18171.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
18171.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
剛剛是衛福部的政務次長嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
18189.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
18209.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
我剛看你的態度我好像以為是您的那個屬下的人那聲音講起來有點被霸凌的感覺希望以後你們到立法院的態度好一點你沒有看到嗎在場我們委員態度都很好對你剛剛在台上那個態度甚至你走下來要跟委員那個在這爭辯的態度希望你以後改變一下這個態度好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
18210.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
18234.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
我覺得政府建立壯世代的國家資料庫是對的我同意瓊英委員所說的那個部分那你們覺得有什麼自然難行嗎你可以來去發言一下你除了告訴我們說之前你已經有一些資料存在了那現在在這裡請你建立壯世代的國家資料庫你覺得困難度在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
18235.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
18256.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
報告委員我想有兩個重點第一個我想剛剛從早上到現在我想最重要的一個部分事實上就是說我們要去正當化到底55歲這一條線牽下去的意義在什麼地方現在已經不是談這個了第二條已經過去了現在跟你談的是第15條這個基本上原則沒有確認的話基本上我們就很難再說下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
18259.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
18263.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
第15條政府應建立壯世代國家資料庫並每年統計並公布健康預期的壽命,你覺得這有什麼自愛難行不能做的? |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
18280.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
18303.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
包括委員我們現在目前就是說 最重要就是說我剛剛已經說了全民健保我們一定是cover全民的我們不可能只是切某一個年齡特別年齡層那你說你現在目前上位置的部分上位置的部分沒有那你已經有了這個資料庫然後再把它弄你再把它切出來不是更好嗎那你這個你會需要一個正當理由啊什麼叫正當理由 現在就在立法啊好 我的問題已經問完了所以趙偉偉今天我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
18305.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
18306.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
今天氣溫都還不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
18329.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
18340.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
主席我剛剛也覺得李次講話非常奇怪什麼民國78年什麼健保開辦那一年你知道健保開辦那一年台灣出生人口多少人嗎你現在立刻回答那時候你知道台灣會這麼老化嗎你知道台灣健保會崩潰嗎我們需要討論62條嗎需要討論點數嗎需要討論分級醫療崩潰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
18357.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
18372.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
你拿幾十年前的東西你怎麼可能有這個完整的資料庫呢好我考你建保開辦那一年比你研究的還要更晚了好幾年民國84年台灣出生多少人口老化率多少現在呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
18379.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
18388.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
對阿說我們今天要面對的是現在阿你當初設計健保的時候有想到今天會崩潰成這個樣子嗎你有想到我們的一切的醫療指數全部都輸給韓國嗎你會想到嗎那個資料怎麼會管用呢你疫情的事情怎麼30年40年設計完全當時建立老保年紀現在是不是要變成崩潰破產你一站就麻人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
18409.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
18427.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
沒有沒有沒有你剛剛上來真的是罵人你剛剛連高金這麼溫和的委員你一上來就一副理直氣壯弄錯啦是你們沒有在監督立委立委在監督你們健保的東西我很清楚你的數字我很清楚健保裡面塞了什麼資料我都很清楚愛塞不塞自費的全部沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
18428.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
18432.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
你知道現在台灣的自費醫療占多少嗎?你的資料是完整的嗎?我們光光控制一個藥品,他知道說病人怎麼用,對醫生都叫苦了,誰要來輸入這個資料?沒有!不要拿健保資料庫來做什麼,而且這本資料庫還拿去賣錢,很有問題的! |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
18457.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
18472.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
我們現在要的東西是什麼,要往未來的資料,你當年40年前設計的東西你居然覺得是可以管用的,我們現在要的東西居然是管用的,不然你執事長要我回去重新做功課 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
18473.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
18479.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
工研院10年前說我們的銀髮產業2025年會有3.6兆工研院有沒有在這裡去年改稱只有3000億剩下10分之1為什麼差那麼多呢?為什麼90%都不見呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
18501.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
18518.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
因為就是沒有資料庫大家都用猜的什麼叫做引髮產業什麼想像方向都做錯大家都憑想像的在做整個沒有研究整個沒有所以所以呢最後用3000億交代3000億還不一定做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
18519.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
18533.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
那時候說3.6兆10年前工研院說的這就是為什麼因為我們現在整個的政府對高齡化的想像就是非常的狹隘非常的狹窄今天壯世代所講 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
18535.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
18554.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
所在談的是一個未來倒三角形的一個社會我們要如何去建構它你們還在正三角形的把老人當少數當弱者當什麼樣的這樣的一個想像人做的都是非常微小的那你能夠解決這些危機嗎目前所現行的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
18554.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
18555.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
黃夏旺委 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
18579.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
18592.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
我講一下,我不認同說中高齡就是弱者。其實中高齡很多都是我們這個產業界的精英。我剛剛有舉我爸爸80幾歲,他現在還在做工作。 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
18594.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
18607.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
所以我也很佩服就是說中高齡是我們社會的寶那目前我們不論是勞動部或是衛福部如果在中高齡就業這個區塊或中高齡產業這個區塊做得不足我覺得應該要再加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
18611.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
18632.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
那另外就是說剛剛呂氏有特別提到就是說我們現在有這個國家的資料庫目前國建署這邊有那可能就是針對那個健康可能國人健康的這一部分那如果剛剛這個我們吳委員所提的可能是比較針對譬如說產業或消費行為譬如說這個那個壯世代如果說以壯世代55歲以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
18639.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
18662.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
他喜歡看什麼電影他喜歡做什麼樣的運動做什麼樣的活動那這個也許是一個消費行為或者是一個產業那我我覺得當然就是說如果目前衛福部有的這個國家的資料庫有的話這個如果在其他單位或者是可以有更完善的 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
18664.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
18688.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
這個收集資料的地方我覺得當然是可以可是如果說這個目前衛福部已經有的這個部分如果說還要再疊床架屋然後再去設一個這個國家資料庫其實我覺得然後來那個統計公布健康預期壽命如果原本就有了有需要還要再設嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
18690.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
18694.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
這是我比較疑問的地方好,那我們第15條不要,第15條我保留不要討論了來再來,第16條16條應該還好吧16、17、18 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
18718.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
18735.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
我趁這個大家還在看的時候我來跟這個行政機關做建議以剛才的第15條就看你們如果這個法律通過了你們有什麼困難應該是針對這個來發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
18739.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
18767.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
應該是針對說,如果是已經有了,那不更好嗎?法律制定有什麼關係呢?所以各自,因為在這,以剛才的第15條,也不是只有衛福部的事啦還有別的部會的資料也要建立,所以那各部會有什麼困難沒有困難,就應該要支持啦所以這個部分,我剛聽了也是有點奇怪啦,我們就回到第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
18772.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
18773.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
第16條有沒有什麼意見? |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
18798.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
18822.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
我想問一下,因為55歲以上到120都可以的話,那個壯世代族群要怎麼去選出來?因為這第16條講的是民間機構我們知道嘛,一定要正式立案的嘛,團體代表,專家也知道嘛,學者一定要有在學校教書的,或是某一個領域專家,我想問一下這個,是不是可以請我們的吳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
18824.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
18848.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
這代表群怎麼去產生這個代表?那個基本上我們已經進入一個高齡化的社會都是高齡所以我們應該在這些年齡當中其實大家都想要都在進行重新的定義剛才提了 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
18849.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
18868.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
提了一個就是65歲也不叫做老人了啦然後45歲不叫中高齡這些都要禁所以呢壯世代很重要大家在思考這個問題的時候都從權益法的角度就是好像定幾歲定一個什麼的話都可以有什麼福利大家從頭看到尾到現在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
18869.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
18883.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
都沒有任何的權益沒有任何一個利益的分配所以大家他是一個倡議倡議的話就是各部會應該朝這個方向朝這個光明的方向朝這個美麗的未來去方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
18885.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
18905.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
去規劃他的政策跟產業政策所以呢沒有沒有影響大家一直擔憂的那些事情都不在這個地方我是問的說這怎麼選出來壯世代的族群代表這到底是55歲要一個60歲要一個我不知道你這邊因為開會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
18911.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
18926.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
總是要有一個你既然能寫出來應該你有你的想像嘛就是這個族群代表要選55歲的還是選65歲還是選80歲的因為你說要有一個壯世代族群代表那要多少人呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
18927.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
18950.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我也不知道還是到時候這個就是每一個年齡層有一個我就不太懂啊所以要請教因為當初是你這邊寫的嘛現在這裡就定義55加以上嘛是要每一個年齡層都有一個嗎這些細則當然到規定的時候就會在行政院成立這一些部會的時候再去討論嘛施行細則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
18951.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
18953.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
民間機構是合法立案的民間組織嗎?這個壯世代的族群代表是什麼意思? |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
18970.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
18995.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
所以現在壯世代的族群當然就是我們沒有必要再去劃分什麼叫做初老、中老、老老或者是怎麼樣以後應該講的我們對於高齡是一種很正式的你過了55歲以上然後就是一個進入我們所謂的高齡的社會這個所過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
18997.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
19007.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我們現在整個社會是為55歲以前所打造的社會55歲以後的社會是一片沙漠一片空白我們現在努力的就是要去建構這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
19009.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
19031.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
建構這一些 其實所謂的壯世代 包括年輕人也是壯世代以後所有的年齡都是壯世代 都要壯起來不是每一個當中 因為它不涉及到權益的分配它不涉及到你所定義當中的權益的分配好像某一種身份 某一種年齡 然後就具備什麼樣的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
19033.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
19049.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
好不要討論這條保留第17條這個有涉基金這個更麻煩第17條就保留啦不要討論啦第18條保留第18條保留好第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
19067.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
19092.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
好第4條要保留我覺得這個吳委員你自己要思考一下就是說黃毓民他堅持的就是中高齡跟高齡如果能把他涵蓋進來剛剛吳委員講的全部都是壯世代那就0到100你說的45歲以上中高齡嘛那65歲高齡 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
19100.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
19118.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
好啦好啦第20條這這這保留要保留喔好算了21條21條這被公布算了也是保留啦好啦好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
19120.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
19127.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
委員吳春城等42人擬具的《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》審查一大堆保留有保留的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
19143.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
19168.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
照樣審查完略,擬具審查報告提報院會討論,院會討論本案時由書招紀委員親前補充說明,必須交由黨團協商。本次會議議事錄授權由主席核定後確定。 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
19170.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
19173.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
本次會議到此結束現在散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
19196.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
19204.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
響鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
19215.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
19216.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
19241.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
19242.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
委員會主席 |
| IVOD_ID |
16329 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16329 |
| 日期 |
2024-12-02 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-2-26,19-2 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
19 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第2次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-12-02T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-12-02T13:49:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |