| IVOD_ID |
163124 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163124 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-14T16:38:06+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-14T16:58:43+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b55eba05c1fe9d356e71d587566aeaab6aabffe2a991c72a2235d1795ffdf2ae75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
盧縣一 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:38:06 - 16:58:43 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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各位,剛看了,不是剛看,這個月,或者是說這幾個禮拜,剛看了你的資料,大概看到了就是你有著作專書四本,論文52,期刊100,義文13,研究計畫26,專題演講或者是學術研討76,也就是說你非常的所有專精, |
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26.192 |
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54.56 |
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我也深信你應該可以升任大法官這個職務經過這幾個委員的質詢我大概每個都有聽到那我就針對有些是針對原住民的部分有些是針對司法不公的部分就就這樣那我們台灣現在一直說我們是以南島文化優越有別於中國那可是我要跟你說的是我們的認同是一樣的我們的認同是中華民國 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.606 |
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我們看到中華民國的國旗,聽到中華民國的國歌,我們都會肅然起敬,有時候會不禁傷人淚下,尤其是我們的選手得到金牌的時候。那我要問你就是說,現在到目前為止有多少大法官, |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
72.575 |
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目前為止你說中華民國憲法15位到現在從民國三十幾到現在你說累計是不是很抱歉我不知道沒有去計算我也沒有計算所以我要告訴你我有查過沒有一位是原住民 |
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88.715 |
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因為我們常常說優越,說我們是南島文化的一個起源,我們甚至在現在在聯合國,或者說參與很多國際會議都說我們是以南島文化自居,可是我們目前沒有一位。我要凸顯的就是說,我們還是主流社會的一個決定的一個架子在框架我們。 |
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那目前也沒有一位外交官是原住民那可是我們到南島有些國家比如說泛太平洋國家尤其是印尼、菲律賓、馬來西亞這些跟我們膚色、語法一模一樣的國家的時候可是卻沒有一位我們是台灣原住民作為外交官的一個身份在那邊與他們交流或者是溝通這是我要為原住民說的一個非常不公平的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
138.138 |
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接下來我講到這次我們大罷免的時候遇到的一些司法不公平的對待那憲法80條你剛有說我有聽到是超越黨派獨立審判不受任何干涉我不知道包括不包括檢察官不過就看現在這個數據來看就6月25號之前中選會的一個資料來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
163.343 |
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188.93 |
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連署前死亡死亡連署所牽涉到的委員應該有16位重複連署23000多那偽造的339牽涉到的委員應該有11位可是這裡面沒有一個是有被調查也沒有被檢調單位說請到來問那可是我們藍營有11個人在押有93位被起訴我想問你的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.512 |
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213.806 |
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當然我可能預測到委員您要提問的方向不過因為這個跟不管是我作為大法官被提名人或者是截至目前為止自己作為學術工作者的這個社會經驗來講相距真的是很遠 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
216.488 |
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這個恐怕是一個事實認定的問題我還是要突顯告訴你說我們目前看到的司法不公的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
227.932 |
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256.92 |
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那接下來我們講到原住民自治那原住民自治這個法律是在陳水扁總統時代通過的2005年2月10號到現在已經整整20年如果我們就原住民自治的法條關於有三個也就是說應該是預期意願然後保障原住民主平等地位的自主發展實行原住民主自治第五條就是說每年要編列預算好20年過去有沒有編列沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
257.6 |
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279.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
第六,如果這次全憲發生爭議的時候應該由總統府召開,也就是說這個位階擺得很高,可是從公佈日到現在沒有進行,也就是說現在還說是部落公法人士在事辦的階段,而且還沒有開始事辦。所以如果就這樣的一個, |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
281.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
307.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這樣的一個狀況來講我是不是要問你說公部門有沒有瀆職有沒有違憲這個問題好謝謝委員的問題這個原住民自治尤其是原基法裡面確實目前我們在規範的原來的良法美意據我的理解跟我們在原住民自治行政的推展上面確實有一段很大的落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
309.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
332.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那有沒有立法帶墮進而導致或者是說行政帶墮進而導致違憲的情勢今天這個時間可能無法容許我詳細跟委員報告不過我可以跟委員分享的是部落公法人其實我們到目前為止行政法院穩定的見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
333.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
351.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
都不認為原民會所公布的那些是公法人其實這個問題在我看來是好解決的為什麼我們只要依照原基法的規定將部落公法人的認定的詞法與規範進而就可以推載所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
353.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
371.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
到目前為止就變成行政部門認定是公法人法院部門認定不是公法人的一個窘境那我的意思是說就已經20年過去了有沒有辦法可以讓它加快或者說有沒有可以歸咎的地方為什麼一直都停擺在那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
374.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
393.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這背後的成因我不是很清楚還有一個法律是關於我們原住民健康的我們大家都知道我們為什麼要推原住民健康法因為我們現在平均裡面大概差了目前主流社會還在差七歲左右那之前當然經過了很多的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
415.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
當然平均裡面也不是單一項可以解決的不過就原住民健康法在112年5月26號通過到目前為止兩年過去它的第二條第二項它有指定機構要專責單位來開始籌設可是目前為止也是毫無動靜那這樣我們是不是可以指責中央主管機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
418.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
436.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
當然站在我們現行的法律制度底下我們有多元的管道去促使執法主管機關去踐行這個法律的規範的議制例如說非正式的陳情跟請願的管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
437.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
457.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那正式的法律的途徑這就是陳如剛跟委員報告的有的時候法律真的很漂亮不過就是一直擺在那裡沒有用所以我們要我們身為大法官我說如果以後身為大法官我們要怎麼把這些很好的法案來落實你的建議有沒有具體建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
458.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
468.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
如果以大法官的職責而言當這樣的一個消極立法或者是行政不作為真的足以強度到違憲的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
471.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們目前大法官運作的實務我們會在主文裡面預知科與立法者或行政部門依解釋的意旨一個是原紀法二十年過去一個是原檢法兩年過去我怕他也跟原紀法一樣躺在那裡躺了好多年 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
493.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以我們就是擔心的部分就是這樣那你的任期是8如果說你有幸成為大法官任期是8年我想8年以後如果有機會再提問你的話我不希望這個結果還是一樣的所以我們希望能夠如果你身為大法官可以給我們一些方向讓我們知道說未來把這個法律要怎麼來執行最近我有去南投縣地利村一個咕咕山採礦的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
523.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
544.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
當天我收到的一個消息就是說他們7月5號要舉行部落的一些抗議活動因為他們在6月29號通過了知情同意也就是以131比88票同意採礦不過當地的年輕人或者是在外生活的族人回去就是要去質問說 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
545.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
565.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
知情同意知多少情同了什麼意族人真的知道嗎所以這樣的一個類似很粗糙的一個做法等於是強行通過了採礦同意採礦不過我們就看這個歷程來說他去年8月24號舉行也舉行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
566.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
589.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個所謂的同意結果是反對票比同意票多也就是說他是沒有辦法結果還不到一年的時間又開會那我說他一定是背後一個很大的經濟利益他不斷的要去推這個知情同意他其實在這個同意之前還有三月份還有辦過一次留會因為人數不足的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
590.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
616.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以当这个利益大到一个程度的时候,这个知情同意权是不是应该是一个专者单位来弄,而不是小小的一个承办人来弄,然后呢,结果该公告的人没有公告,该通知的人没有通知,然后呢,目前他们那个,目前的,同意的一个单位的是户而不是人,是不是可以全权代表所有主人的想法,我觉得这是可以值得商榷的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
617.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
640.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
就你的看法來說這個自行同意我們尤其是原住民基本法第21條你覺得是不是應該更周延一點我支持委員的這個方向就是說諮商同意權自行同意權我們21條委員剛剛所提到的這個個案其實我們在台東也遇到過 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
642.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
671.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
部落裡面的一群人做了同意另外一群人跳出來覺得我的意見沒有被採納根本沒有討論所以目前在行政法院針對這個是有訴訟案件的也就是說部落會議的內部衝突那從立法面來講諮商同意其實是以部落自決為立法的核心宗旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
671.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
691.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以它的關鍵是依照傳統慣習跟原住民族的自治從這個角度去出發當然如果它弱於少數人被控制又回到原住民自治的問題所以我的意思就是說剛才那個知情同意它的頻率是不是太頻繁了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
692.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
710.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
本來應該是如果說就這樣來看的話已經這一年已經三次了如果他強行規範就是說應該明定他的只要不同意應該是兩年兩年內不得再申請知情同意權不然部落一天到晚被召集就是為了財團的利益在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
712.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
727.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
鬥爭,那有的人我不知道是怎麼樣或者是被摸了頭,結果他本來是反對變成同意,可是我覺得要有一個timing,不能沒有多久又想要來推翻之前所謂的不同意的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
729.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
741.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個大概跟公投法的設計有點類似不過基本上這是主管機關立法形成自由在執法的部分那當然如果主管機關針對這個部分不作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
745.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
760.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
當然在現行的憲政體制之下往上一層就是大院等於立法形成權可不可以考慮在相關適當的法律透過意見的表達看看這個部分有沒有修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
760.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
786.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我相信部落他們還是會提出他們的救濟看是什麼樣的一個程序來弄接下來就是我之前有拜讀到你的論文就是原住民保留地權利設定的地方權責劃分剛剛好我們台東也發生一個一個鄉發生一個就是類似登記不實或者是說就是冒名登記這些諸如此類的事情就被鄉長就要被提出罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
787.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
811.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那後來整體的結果,6月24號台東縣政府就去調查發現他們是強調是行政疏失,未查有違法情勢來做一個類似像總total那我看到你的一個結論就是說在部落公法人施刑之前,實行原罪名保留地無償取得所有權的取得規劃有直轄市縣市政府主管享有 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
813.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
840.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
另一方納入絕大多數原住民所組成的鄉鎮市區公所原住民保留土地權利審查委員會必要的參與機制也就是土審會我們所說的然後可是現在你也希望說說不定這些曾經的昙花一線可以回來變成是主導的單位鄉鎮區公所可是現在有一個問題就是如果這些土審會的委員都是鄉長的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
841.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
850.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是不是就會產生一些弊端然後有些香比如說仁愛香或者是比較大的香它甚至比彰化線還要大 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
852.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
873.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這麼大的一個領地,可是圖神委員就是那麼幾個人,他怎麼會了解很遙遠的地方的事情?所以主人的建議就是說,這個部落應該是以部落為單位,而不是以鄉為單位,它的透明度一定要夠,不然這個之前紛紛擾擾,不知道好幾個月的時間,連續都是海端鄉的事情, |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
874.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
885.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以我希望就是說以後如果你有幸當大法官的時候就原住民保留地這個部分我希望你之前有研究過我希望你再提出一些你的看法出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
886.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
911.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
是 謝謝委員的鼓勵那元寶地 各位有人如果看到我這個凝結錄的這一段其實前面有一個預設的前提就是在公法人化之前那我也蠻認同剛剛委員您所說的是不是有可能讓部落本身多參與這個有關元寶地的相關的所有權取得的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
913.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
934.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
其實原保地本來就是保護保障原住民族的生計所以適時的而且高比例的去納入原住民族自己的意見我覺得這個是一個符合原保地設計的立法意旨所以基本上這個方向我也是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
936.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
953.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就針對富裕的部分我還是要提出我的想法來問你一下就是我們現在財化法這個說後來我們中央不給我們一般性補助款的話你覺得有沒有危險一般性補助款 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
955.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
983.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
一般性補助款是根據財化法地方制度法的規定為了橫貧地方的發展所給予的一種補助款的項目那這成如我剛剛在回覆其他委員的質詢時我所提到的一貫的立場原則上一般性補助款的發給中央有裁量權 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
984.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1013.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
但是不代表這個裁量權完全無限制他如果因為一般性的補助款未給予而導致地方自治團體自治事項難以推行時那這個時候在憲法的層次來看他可能就會去危及地方自治被憲法作為制度性保障的一個界面 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1014.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1035.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
在這樣的一個諸多要件該當的情況之下我就會認為這個時候中央他的裁量是收縮到零的狀態也就是說他就有義務對地方收支短差的部分透過一般補助款的方式給予補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1038.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1062.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
最後幾分鐘我再問你一下關於那個威瑪憲法的問題就是說你曾經我看到你對威瑪憲法都是用萬劫不復這四個字在形容它那也就是說它有緊急權跟主動解散國會加這個兩項權利那反觀我們現在在國會一年多來所經歷的這些事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1064.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1068.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
总统有没有扩取一个倾向呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1071.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1095.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
委員問了一個難度蠻高的政治的問題目前台灣的國會跟院還有府之間的關係當然直接來跟委員報告直接的關聯性是一個政黨政治的運作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1097.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1118.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
正面跟負面的結果那有沒有或全我自己觀察到的實質上我當然不在其中我很難跟委員做評論但是目前看起來的還是行政院我個人的感受就有到因為為什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1119.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1138.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
以前1919到1933這14年裡面他解散七次國會他已經使用250次對不對那我們現在已經不斷的被複製然後不斷要被實現在一年裡面已經複製七次那我覺得他是不是也是變相的也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1139.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1159.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
可以去說他是不是也是在用兩個權力緊急權跟主動解散國會可是我們現在是用視線跟富裕這樣的兩把武器在制衡國會是不是也有這方面的疑慮我才會講說會不會走到萬劫不復你所說的這四個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1161.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1189.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
謝謝委員比較具體的這個提問就複義而言我個人認為那是憲政設計上面關於政治解決的途徑那這個部分我認為沒有那能不能不斷的提起憲法訴訟誠如其他被提名人在答覆的回答一樣他基本上只要符合受理的要件憲法作為政治之法 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1190.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1195.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
憲法法庭有時候其實也很難去阻絕這樣從政治紛爭轉變成法律紛爭的正義問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1217.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1236.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 謝謝盧委員也謝謝被提名人張教授報告全院委員會對大法官被提名人詹振榮詢答部分到此為止謝謝被提名人列席答詢另外有關各黨團對被提名人 |