| IVOD_ID |
163119 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163119 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-14T14:40:18+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-14T15:00:58+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b5e055a90b8258734e71d587566aeaab6eb4b0aafec90296d28abf62da49b1b6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:40:18 - 15:00:58 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝主席 有請備體名人曾教授請備體名人答詢委員好 |
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背題裡面詹教授您好我想先請你看兩張圖這兩張圖都是來自內政部跟主計總處的官方數據左邊這張圖告訴我們從2020年開始台灣就進入人口的負成長也就是說出生的人數遠低於 |
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| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
死亡的人數那右邊這張圖是告訴我們過去十年來從2015年出生人口數從22萬、21萬一直到去年的農年13.8萬那今年上半年現在是6.6萬預期不會超過13萬因此生育問題不再是某一些人選擇要不要生育的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
62.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
83.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我覺得是整個社會能不能生有沒有辦法生的一個結構性的困境我想請教被提名人當自然生育沒有辦法去支撐世代交替的時候例如有人因為疾病因為器官缺損等等即便他有胚胎也沒有辦法植入 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
84.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
104.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所以該思考的問題是不是國家應該要有義務給予更多元更可行的一條生育路徑而不是一味的去禁止它所以首先我想跟你談的就是憲法下的生育自主跟家庭形成的這樣的一個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
105.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
132.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
您在書面意見中有提及代理育母制度不再是社會上極少數族群的期盼願望或是需求而已而是當代社會環境下地球公民已經開始要面臨的共通問題且代孕的急迫性與成熟度在立法政策上逐漸提升本席非常認同您的見解雖然您認為目前尚未形成社會共識還需要進一步觀察進展但是請問您是否同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
133.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
156.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
如果社會共識永遠無法達成其實我不知道世界上有沒有所謂的共識社會共識如果永遠無法自然形成社會共識那您是否同意國家應該要積極扮演協助制度化的一個這樣的角色國家是不是有義務要去建構有效監督的一個法治的一個選項請貝提琳回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
157.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
173.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
好 謝謝委員您的提問陳如我在回覆民眾黨黨團的問卷裡面所表示的立場我是支持在目前少子化或者是委員您剛所提到的諸多因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
174.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
195.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
之下當生育自然的生育不再具有可能性的時候應該容許有多元的選擇路徑那我也補充說明我在裡面會提到社會共識其實是針對代理孕母裡面孕母 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
196.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
223.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
跟子女之間有血緣的這一個部分但是我的立場不是說一定要有共識才可以立法我瞭解 等一下我會再繼續請教您這個部分根據聯合國2024年的世界生育報告台灣去年的總生育率是全世界倒數前幾名只有0.86從生不如死的這個數據來看生育就不是個人選擇問題現在已經進入台灣社會的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
224.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
240.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
人口危機跟公共政策請問您是否同意國家有必要重新對我們的人工生殖法的部分就是全面禁止代孕的部分要重新檢討來因應人民有生育自主跟家庭形成的一個保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
242.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
269.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
來檢討這個好謝謝那您在書面回覆也提到剛剛你剛剛要解釋的話待遇若涉及人工受精模式會涉及親子關係跟奴隸關係的爭議會比較大需要特別審慎那我這裡要要說的就是說本黨所提供提出來的這個人工生殖法的修法版本並沒有納入人工受精這個待遇模式喔而是限定在試管嬰兒胚胎植入的模式那請問你 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
270.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
284.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這樣是不是比較符合比例原則跟基本權的保障也比較合乎這個憲法的期待呢是 因為它的爭議性比較少立法難度比較低所以您是支持這樣的一個版本是的謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
287.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
312.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
目前人工生殖法第11條採的是正面表列規定只有符合不孕症跟重大遺傳性疾病的情況的夫妻而且一方至少要具備健康的生殖細胞才能夠進行人工生殖也就是說一對合法的夫妻即便他們經過醫師的專業評估認為適合用試管胚胎來進行待遇也不得為之 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
314.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
337.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那現行的法也未開放任何形態的一個代孕技術使得醫療機構面對這樣的個案或這樣的病人的時候他們因為法律的障礙不敢去施作那您認為這樣是不是可能過度排除了某些其他有需求的族群例如卵巢摘除、子宮摘除這是否構成對生育自主其實是有不合理的一個差別代孕呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
359.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我是支持在這樣的一個方案底下將代理育母制度於納入法律的明文肯認感謝貝提米人那面對節節上升社會需求嘛最近我們看到的是民進黨政府在待遇議題上是以拖待變先騙再說啦一再用脫鉤 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
360.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
379.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
為藉口其實根本想放手那即便國際間現在已經有數十個國家他是在嚴格監管條件下允許特定形式的一個代孕那也有很多篇已經發表了這個實證醫學的研究顯示只要在妥善的支持跟規範下有代孕媽媽所生出來的兒童其實在 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
380.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
403.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
在社會跟心理的發展上它都沒有在統計學具有意義的一個負面的影響這是有證據的那另外我要談的就是說針對代孕可能造成的剝削的這個部分的討論第三屆國大代表那個莊盛榮律師他有指出合法化不等於放任喔相反的因為代孕具有爭議性更需要法律制度來納入專業審查醫療安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
406.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
427.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
還有這個心理評估跟契約的保障能夠讓守護每一方的這個權利讓孩子擁有完整的法律的這個保護跟這個家庭的支持如果繼續封鎖這條路大禮物不會消失而且會進入更黑暗更危險更不正義請問被提名的您贊同這樣的說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
428.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
454.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我贊成在代理育母的議題上面導政是優於目前的意志我的理由在於或許目前在某些團體他會擔心代理育母制度的導入會違反人性尊嚴也就是所謂的將子宮給工具化我個人基本的立場是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
456.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
482.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在這樣的一個代理育母的合法化的情況之下我們其實是可以透過法治的設計去免除這個疑慮謝謝貝提名人因為幾十個國家都有了我們是可以來規範接下來我要請教貝提名人在江雅琦教授的這個學位造假的學術論理案您是否有參與出審審查工作並且擔任副召集人請你回答是或不是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
483.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
501.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那在2021年11月出審審查小組認定江雅琪連續9年她在申請科技部相關的文件上她載入或使人登載法學博士學位造假虛構不存在的一個博士學位名稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
502.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
520.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個情節嚴重的影響科技部審查的判斷而且是資源分配的公正問題所以當時的這個小組他一致決議是停權三年等處分請問是不是有這件事情您是否支持或同意這樣的一個決議內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
521.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
540.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我是學倫小組的一個成員之一也是代表學門進入到誠信班確實有這樣的一個決議跟內容你也確實擔任副召集人那這個決議也是大家的共識那江雅琪當時是台電董事喔你們當初書審小組做出的這樣的建議卻在學倫審議會上 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
543.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
563.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
被台電的訴訟代理人萬國法律事務所陳鵬光律師主導推翻了這樣結果你能接受嗎當初我在國科會的誠信辦代表學門去做陳述意見的事我有 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
565.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
591.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
堅決的表達學門的立場但是他被推翻了嘛他被推翻了那我要問的就是這個陳鵬光律師當時是否有利益衝突應該迴避審查呢我的印象是當初在開會之前有討論這件事情後來學陳姓辦的委員決議不需要利益迴避但是他本身不但他是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
593.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
608.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
台電的訴訟代理人啊然後江雅琦是台電的董事啊陳某關不僅沒有迴避審查還主導審查推翻這個決議然後護航江雅琦非常的離譜啊您支持嗎您支持這樣的做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
609.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
635.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我跟委員報告當時現場的情況當初在討論利益迴避的時候如果我的印象是正確的那個時候所提出來的室友是好像是大學同學還是同班並沒有提到台電我現在告訴你一個是台電董事一個是台電的訴訟代理人你認為這樣沒有利益的衝突嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
636.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
656.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
您的見解呢?如果確實有計劃案件的關聯性的話應該要迴避吧?是好,謝謝,謝謝貝提名人我進入下一個問題前,我想先請教你你認為我國的總統應該是全民的總統、全民的領袖還是特定政黨的超級領袖呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
657.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
678.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是中華民國的總統當然是國家的總統好謝謝你2009年民進黨黨主席蔡英文公開批評馬英九總統兼任黨主席會讓台灣的憲政進入極大的風險他認為總統不應該身兼黨主席這樣會造成權力分立的失衡蔡英文總統會這樣說是因為我國現在是半總統制 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
682.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
709.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
總統同時兼任黨主席他可以直接領導黨務而且可以掌握整個黨發展的方向總統一個人同時掌握行政權跟立法權會破壞在目前的辦總統制下總統和國會互相制衡的一個關係請問貝提米爾您剛剛也提到您是公法專家嘛您也即將擔任大法官從您對憲法的認知對台灣目前這個辦總統制下蔡英文這樣講對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
712.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
730.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我的認知至少從憲法的規範角度來講並沒有明文的禁止這個執政黨或是總統不可以兼任黨主席因為這是一個政治事務跟憲法事務的區隔那當然在這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
732.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
755.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
基本上我不反對可以兼任黨主席但是要有憲法上的分際也就是在執行憲法職權時謝謝詹教授 我們等一下繼續討論結果言猶在有蔡英文她在2016年或2020年擔任總統時她都身兼了黨主席那現在的總統賴清德也是身兼了黨主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
755.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
778.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
但是不管是馬英九、蔡英文或賴清德任期內憲法都沒有再修正過喔台灣依舊是半總統制那過去被人家討論的或是蔡英文總統講得那麼清楚的憲政危機權利分立失衡難道會因為換人執政換黨執政就不存在或消失了嗎不會不會好 謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
780.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
804.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那所以總統兼任黨主席在台灣目前的這個半總統制度下有權無責嘛有權無責不僅破壞憲政體制造成權力分立的一個失衡更是全面的棄守全民總統的格局成為特定政黨的超級領袖我想要強調你望遠全世界民主程度越低的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
805.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
827.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他這個權力失衡權力分立失衡的情況是越嚴重的我想請教貝提米您是否同意台灣應該要開啟檢討總統跟政黨主席角色重疊的問題避免讓政黨利益高於或凌駕在國家利益之上呢您同意可以開啟這樣的檢討嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
830.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
858.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這樣的一個思索的方向當然在我們的整個憲政體制的進展當中我覺得是一個可以思考的命題但是我也跟委員報告在當代的憲政運作民主的體制之下他跟政黨政治是難以脫鉤的我理解那個曾教授就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
860.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
876.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
檢討還是可以啟動的嘛因為還是有人尤其是當事人自己提出這樣的一個見解嘛那如此我覺得才能讓我們好不容易得來的這個自由民主價值繼續深化讓整個國家社會是一個處於一個比較穩定的狀況接下來是國會改革問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
876.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
901.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
您的問卷回覆中針對113年憲判制第九號提出不同意見主要有三個部分您的見解跟憲法法庭判決不同分別是總統到立法院國情報告官員缺席被刑時得罰還以及公務員不配合調查的時候得移送監察院這些都被判違憲了但是您問卷中的回覆是認為可以進行核限制的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
901.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
929.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
解釋本席先肯定您有提出不同意見的勇氣那我再來請教首先是總統的國情報告賴清德在競選的時候說總統是有義務到立法院做國情報告但是憲法法庭卻說總統並無到立法院做國情報告的義務請問被提名人到底是賴總統說錯了還是憲法法庭解釋錯了總統到底有沒有義務到立法院來做國情報告呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
930.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
947.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
以目前憲法的規範是沒有是有的沒有義務沒有義務可以到立法院來報告但是您的見解是可以是我的見解是那一個職權行使法可以做合憲性解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
948.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
965.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是可以做核心的解釋那一個因其實是解釋成不具有拘束性去年國會改革修法如果官員無故缺席被尋或是故意拒打立委的質詢經院會決議可以處以罰款後來被憲法法庭又判違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
966.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
988.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以這個會議就出現行政院秘書長龔明星他缺席委員會然後國安會秘書長吳釗燮甚至兩度缺席但立法院卻對缺席的委員毫無沒有辦法去克責請問被提名人你認為對於官員沒有辦法盡他的政治責任時給予法律的制裁這樣有違憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
991.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1001.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我們在司法院釋字585號的解釋裡面當初大法官的判決是肯認 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1003.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1018.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
對於不遵守違反國會調查權跟質詢權的官員是可以以行政裁罰的方式因為這是確保調查權有效實施的附屬權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1021.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1035.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
其實民進黨在野的時候他非常支持國會要有聽證調查權那去年國會改革的修法也賦予立法院調查權而且對於不配合調查的機關政府機關或是公務員可以移送監察院進行糾正糾舉或彈劾 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1037.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1053.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
但這個部分竟然也被判違憲了您在書面回覆有提到說認為這個修法可以解讀成是對機關或是公務人員為師的一個檢舉那促使監察權的這個職權發動而已應該沒有違憲可不可以請你稍微再說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1054.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1070.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這個在憲判第九號的解釋理由書大法官有做一個說明他說即使是檢舉也會造成憲政機關之間的一個可能是恐怖平衡的失衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1071.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1085.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
不過我個人認為這個當然作為有權解釋我尊重憲判的見解但是我個人認為這個部分其實就是一種檢舉促使有權機關去發動他的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1087.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1109.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
謝謝您因為您在書面這樣回答我也希望大家能夠聽到您公開的一個說明那我再請教貝提敏人根據我國憲政體制下的全職全立分立制度地方政府在自治事項上具有一定程度的自主性中央政府應該是秉持輔導性的原則不要輕易的介入或否決地方的立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1109.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1126.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
然而台中市政府依生煤自治條例開罰中火超量使用生煤一案中卻遭行政院以部分條文違反空污法為由 橫告無效當地方政府提起行政訴訟的時候最高行政法院也認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1128.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1153.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
應由憲法法庭來解釋而不提供實質救濟也就是中央一紙函告那地方政府就只能吞下去只能接受您認為這樣符合憲法中保障的地方自治跟垂直分權的原則嗎如果我的資訊沒有錯誤這個案件應該目前有申請憲法訴訟有沒有受理我不確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1154.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1172.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以以下我只能做一般式的認證我想請問台中市政府他更嚴格的一個環境保護開發中國是否也屬於地方自治合理的一個範疇呢至少就空汙而言我個人的基本立場是地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1174.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1199.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
並不完全沒有權限空屋這個防治的環境保護本來就是應該一個因地制宜的一個做法可是當時這個這個台中市政府依法開罰中火這個一千八百萬元結果當時環保署禁制撤銷罰單喔那台北這個高層環環境部是沒有權限這樣做的啦我覺得現在是進行中那我想我最後要告訴 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1200.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1218.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
被提名人就說大法官本來就是一個獨立的標杆但大法官做出裁決說應該要秉持公正跟獨立超然的精神請問你,你有這個信心跟決心當你成為大法官之後,您可以超然獨立的行使你的職權嗎?好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝被提名人的答詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1232.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1239.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
蘇巧慧委員之詢問已書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請陳玉珍委員詢問 |