| IVOD_ID |
163113 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163113 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-14T09:10:52+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-14T09:31:20+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:28 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292bdae1c537c1128459e71d587566aeaab668394456a1861213256103802437d2e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳玉珍 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:10:52 - 09:31:20 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席有請我們這個陳教授備題門人請備題門人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
在看這個總統府送過來的這個簡歷還有您剛剛的這個口頭自傳的報告裡頭本席覺得您是一位這個理論與這個實務經驗兼具的是我們這個法學界法律界的一時之選在看著你的簡歷後我想這是您第三次到這個立法院來接受這個被提名就是同意權的行使對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.641 |
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74.769 |
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我們先來看看您過往的成績單2017年的時候蔡總統提名您擔任第12屆考試委員那時候提名的新聞稿有提到為了配合年金改革的步伐多項重要年金改革的方案要交由考試院研擬 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
76.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
95.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
到了2020年5月的時候再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員裡面提到的是說您原來在12屆的考試委員任內有推動年改及相關考學制度的研議是熟悉考試院職人考量續任有助於經驗傳承 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
123.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這是前兩次提名的相關的理由第一 這一次我們賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官這一次的新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候對推動年金改革退府新制左右貢獻這個是這次的提名所以您在自傳中也有提到說您擔任考試委員的時候是以推動年金改革為己任 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
123.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
132.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
是那請問您擔任考試委員的時候就是已經就是那個時候您有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎 您認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
134.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
153.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
報告委員基本上年金改革是考試院有幾任的院長都有這樣子的一個期待只是各黨針對部分的意見不同譬如說所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
154.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
174.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以基本上年輕改革這件事是應該在當時因為當時還沒有民眾黨所以在是國民黨跟民進黨在黨團都或者是立法院跟都共同的共識在這種情形之下呢我覺得我有部分達成有部分沒有達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
175.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
198.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那您的這個您的自傳裡頭也有提到齁這個對立法院齁就這個有關年金改革這個退伏三法齁這個對考試院通過的部分立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過是所以您剛解釋的吧是所以您在考試院的院會裡頭齁在考試院第十二屆一百三十六次會議裡頭齁您這個捍衛您當時的說法是齁這個這個有書寫的齁這個呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
203.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
229.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
民主國家所有重要事項必須經由國會做最後決議因此立法過程中所以部長身為考試院的全序部長但是對於立法院最後決議不僅全序部長要尊重本院議欄所以您是相當尊重這個立法院我們國會的這個立法權聽起來是這樣是沒錯那第137次會議您也有提到在提到這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
232.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
257.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
從年改迄今很多法案都是透過立法院提案通過這是立法委員的限定執掌造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題形式上無法苛責行政院此為立法委員的行為屬於目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果這些都是您說過的是所以在擔任考試委員期間您相當尊重立法院的立法行政權尊重國會的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
258.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
262.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
您請問現在是抱持同樣的想法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
264.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
288.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
報告委員 我想法一貫不只是從考試委員從以前擔任學者基本上就認為立法院是最高民意機關應該要予以尊重很好 那我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風格那我想請教您幾個議題我們立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
290.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
299.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個您知道有三讀通過那請問對於這個所得替代這個您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的這個立法者形成的這個空間還是會認為說連改不應該走回頭路 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
302.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
329.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
如果作為一個被提名人的話我們尊重我絕對尊重立法院所做的這樣子的一個立法通過但是中間相關的過程當然是由立法院內部形成的這個共識所做成的已經共識啦 三讀已經通過了所以會尊重立法院的這個職權啦尊重OK 好 謝謝您齁那這個這是錦霄這個齁 錦霄的這個部分前面這個是錦霄海巡喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
330.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
353.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那還沒有修改的也有可能修改是我們公教人所呼籲的要停侃退休金彈性調整所得替代率這個七大公教團體要說希望要停侃所得替代率這個部分 退休金的這個部分那如果到時候這個部分在經過立法院的修改又三讀通過了這個所得替代率又有所改變的時候請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
354.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
359.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
立法行政過程就尊重我們國會的這個權利呢還是還是會認為說不應該這個走回頭路 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
362.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
390.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
基本上在憲法秩序下依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容我是尊重立法院的所以不管您是擔任學者或是以後擔任這個大法官的話您都會這個尊重立法院所三讀通過這個法律案嗎是就是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院那想請教齁這個我們上個禮拜剛剛通過一個普發現金條例對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
393.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
400.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為增加支出制提議當初行政院送出來是1100現在特別條例增加1350 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
412.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
439.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第70條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第70條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
440.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
467.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
做這個實質增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號4-520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
468.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
492.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因為是法律案跟或者是重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候大法官520號解釋就提供一個解決的方法就是憲法裡面有關行政立法互動的一個政治爭議的解決模式應該在這個憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去做這個框架的解決至於怎麼解決尊重大院跟行政院的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
492.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
511.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那現在就是您回答很多但是沒有回答到這個問題喔這個行政院如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了如果你以後是要解釋當那個大法官是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
512.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
526.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
報告委員 剛才已經跟委員你講了很多 你覺得有違反嗎就告訴我有沒有違反基本上這是兩院之間有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定中間中間這個都可以 我會讀啊但是有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定這個普發現金一萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
528.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
540.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為法院主張是預算 法律案然後行政院認為這是預算案行政院認為是預算案嗎?行政院認為是法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
543.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
567.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你認為這個是法律案?那請問這個是法律案還是預算案?這個特別條例這個就是有爭議行政立法這件事有爭議對有爭議謝謝教授我知道您的答案你認為有爭議你說行政立法是預算案我們認為是法律案我們認為是法律案因為是特別條例行政院是認為這是涉及預算案但是你身為大法官的被提名你認為說這個是有爭議的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
569.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
575.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你認為國會在行使預決簽的時候有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用立法院在通過預算也有積極引導政府預算的作用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
590.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
616.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
導正 但是憲法70條有明文規定因為剛才委員是講預算所以我才會講到說70條那法律案的話70條是預算嘛是法律案嘛那對於說這是預算還是法律案你認為也有爭議兩院有爭議兩院有爭議 司法院怎麼認為呢司法院520號就曾經有做過解釋可以循憲法徵修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
618.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
640.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
陳教授 剛剛您在提到連改的時候我是蠻肯定的因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之就是說即便您擔任大法官還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨但是現在在提到憲法70條這一條的時候您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不大一樣我想請教您1996有一篇 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
643.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
667.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
您看一下喔 平溪大法官釋字391號解釋文這一個我沒有看到你的簡歷 沒有在你的簡歷裡頭啊是為什麼這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭有啊 有有在我的簡歷裡頭簡歷它可能沒有附上來但是在我這一篇文章是在那個剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面專書論文裡頭喔 但是我們上去搜尋喔這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
669.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
692.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
上網去搜尋,上網搜尋是沒有辦法讓公眾來閱讀,是沒有公開有公開,上網搜尋應該書上,報告委員,書有可以在書局找得到因為上網搜尋是沒有搜尋,沒關係那我想請教您,這篇文章您的陳述關聯您還記得嗎我記得 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
695.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
723.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我對於大法官釋字391號的解釋對於他這個有些部分有不同的意見對 您說的這一條裡頭您特別說的我來跟您回憶一下這是您說過的話預算額度修正權僅限於否決或刪減預算此一見解過於狹隘不符合國會在預算預決形式上對行政權有優勢地位之本質 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
724.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
745.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第二個 縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議亦可另提法律案為實質增加預算支出之決議這是您說過的話吧 沒錯吧所以說不管它是法律案 預算案上是不行但是行政課我們的差別是 他說它是預算案您的說法是 您以前當學者說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
747.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
765.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
縱使就是不在預算案題也可以另提法例案像這個特別條例就是法例案就算維生實質你還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議這是你的說法沒錯吧這是我當學者的說法你當學者的說法當當法官想法會不一樣我跟委員報告一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
766.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
794.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
還有下一句 下一句因此憲法第70條對立法院審議預算預決權的限制規定實質上並未具有重大意義你覺得70條是沒有重大意義的國會在行使預算預決權時亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用70條沒有提到 這都是你說的話經由國會地勤以來選 傳播媒體監督也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查決議權所以70條可以做適度的鬆綁這都是您之前擔任寫者的這個意見吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
797.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
802.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
是 但是報告我七十條是憲法修法是要大院的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
805.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
830.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們不在說修那個法我們在說您當時對這個立法院和立法權和行政權說這個國會有這個優勢嘛報告委員我可不可以報告兩點第一個70條我說要修但是是大院的職權我現在不是要提要修我修的說在現在以昨天禮拜五剛剛通過的那個法那個法令那裡頭有沒有這個爭執啊對你以前的看法我是因為你以前擔任學者的時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情第二點我跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
833.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
837.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我沒有說我脫離我學者想法是一致的但是我基本上尊重大院的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
857.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
869.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
就是尊重立法院的決議就對了所以覺得這個在這個在這個我們跟這一次這個普拉現金一萬塊的這個憲法您是還是跟您以前想法一樣嗎因為這個憲法行政院雖然說憲法70條但這不是適用憲法70條你還是覺得這個憲法70條我認為憲法70條可以修改但是大院的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
877.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
898.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
OK 好 謝謝您啦至少我認為您在擔任這個學者的時候剛剛我問的連改的部分尊重立法院的立法權還有這個就是70條的這個部分憲法70條這個我們通過這個普法宣言的法律案那個預算的跟行政想法不一樣立法權有優勢的這個地方您的想法應該是學術想法應該是沒有改變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
900.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
911.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這一點跟您肯定那我再想跟您請教也是很重要的一點就是中央和地方財政權的劃分您一樣寫過一篇觀點是從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權的劃分你還記得你說過什麼嗎這個中央和地方財政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
917.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
939.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這垂直權利分立嘛來 我來幫您整理一下您說過 國家財政權在行使與分配上在核心性無異體框架的財政學者這個是財政學者和實務運作者的任務接著您又說到說這個財政學者可能劃分不公這個原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的軍權體制不公也不是法學可以解決的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
941.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
962.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第三個你說這個可能會產生重中央忽略地方這種劃分方法讓地方有什麼參與群要思考憲政的問題所以這個結論就是說這個財政行使案分配是憲法抉擇和實務運作者我想實務的運作者應該指的就是立法院這邊是我們這邊的任務吧實務運作者我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
964.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
986.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
然後第二個有關這個怎麼劃分 比如說以前是中央比較多嘛那你認為這個雖然劃分不公啦 不管中央多地方多因為中央可能多 地方也可能多 劃分不公但是這個也不是法學可以解決的嘛 這是您之前提到的所以這個不是法律可以解釋的嘛這個雖然可能會出現中央多 或者我們這次修過以後地方多一點 還是中央多 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
986.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1004.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
但是這些都不是法學可以解決的要用財政學的用實務來做規劃嘛沒錯吧所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西嘛不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛所以這個財政訴訟送到司法院憲法法庭的時候應該就是不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1004.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1032.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
因為這不是法學者可以解決問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政法是立法委員的任務這沒問題從民意來講要有中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1034.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1052.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
因為財政的預算那些內容非常精算的部分這個不是法學可以解決的嘛但是如果專業的話可以補充的話由專業來補充 由財政學者來處理但是這個東西如果要拿去釋憲 財政說法去釋憲的話這就不能受理啊因為法學界並不能解決這個實務上這個財政這些問題嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1054.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1070.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
但是法院可以請鑑定人 但是可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人 財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候 這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題 你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1071.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1094.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
是,但是可以由鑑定人才證明因為時間很短,我現在再問一題因為您剛有特別提到我們離島,我要特別跟您感謝但是我想請教你這一題,您當年考試委員的時候109到113年,發言次數比例分別是65、39、20就11次、20次、10次,最後兩年是7次、7次是不是因為那時候年改任務已經了,所以後來什麼業務都不大需要說了你後面兩年,發言的次數相當的少,只剩下7次 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1097.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1099.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
52場宴會裡頭您只發言了7次32場也只發言了7次是因為業務已經沒有了的關係嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1105.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1125.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
所以就沒有需要再關心其他的事情很多政務不是在院會裡面院會大概就是已經做了大家有共識的來做成解決那我想請問您剛剛所提到剛剛您在口頭報告我看書院報告沒有但口頭報告有特別提到有關離島的這個部分您知道我是來自離島金門就專門我們離島地區這個特考這個規劃這個考試院有開會吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1132.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1136.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
是那大家也都是有共識嘛對不對對 大家有共識在考試院第13屆第138次會議裡頭是其中有9位考試委員這個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1143.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1170.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
有八位考試委員發言支持或是發言建議 你知道嗎是九位裡面有八位發言 哪一位沒有發言報告委員 因為之前已經跟考選部溝通而且是我全力贊成的所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了不需要任何的時間所以沒有 在這個離島特考裡頭因為您剛剛有說這是考試院 您的算是公積但這個離島這個特考的這個業務裡頭唯一九位考試委員唯一沒有發言是我們陳子洋教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1171.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1186.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你是對我們離島失誤因為很贊成所以不用發言是吧報告委員委員的政治歷練非常的豐厚知道很多都是事前大家的溝通協調所以其他八個發言都是因為不贊成所以來協調是嗎不是不是不是是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1187.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1210.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我在很多問題都在第一屆都已經全部說過了不希望浪費院會的時間所以九位委員有八位委員發言有點浪費時間九位只有您沒有發言耶您就跟我說您剛才在口頭包特別跟我說檢視理導者和這個議員九位委員裡面有兩位是已經這個續任過的然後七位沒有續任所以我們希望讓兩位續任不再發言但另外一位也發了言 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1211.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1222.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
沒關係沒有發言因為表示您的至少這個也是通過我們是跟您表示感謝所以不發言有時候會表示那因為時間到我們還有其他的希望如果您有興同過這個提問維持一樣的風骨 |