| IVOD_ID |
163060 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163060 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T10:14:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T10:35:52+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:21:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2bb0d0af414fb209ce4f523f20e1b7efcb5545a92025017d5decb61088774d11d9cc7248204e3c0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:14:44 - 10:35:52 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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我們接下來請登記第四號第四位翁曉琳委員請詢問陳金威委員請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.431 |
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36.356 |
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院長好 這邊先有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
43.015 |
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65.971 |
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好委員好是蕭貝廷您人好我在這邊其實還是習慣尊稱您為蕭老師蕭教授所以我想待會質詢的時候呢我就以蕭教授來這個稱會然後來跟您進行一些討論我想就是在這次這個蕭老師您被提名為大法官的這個候選人 |
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那事實上以我個人的觀點因為蕭老師您在我們學界也是得高望重而且非常認真然後學有專精的學者所以我其實是很高興看到您能夠被提名為大法官候選人不過因為現在我們的憲政也面臨到一些比較困難的處境尤其是憲政爭議不斷所以在這邊我待會也會請教您幾個 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
95.653 |
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123.32 |
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與市縣有關的一些問題我們知道其實從賴清德總統上任以來目前他執政一年可是行政院他所提起的復議的次數是創下有史以來的記錄我不知道您曉不曉得我們從我們行縣以來一直到113年賴清德總統上任之前我們曾經有過多少次的行政院所提起的復議案 |
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125.101 |
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150.398 |
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具體的數字我不知道但是很少因為以前的規定還有包括行政院長要辭職所以提出復議案的風險很大所以提出的數量應該是個位數吧我這邊告訴您就是從行政院一直到113年的2月之前我們總共只有13次的復議案但是從賴清德總統他去年5月就職之後到現在 |
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151.178 |
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174.721 |
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行政院已經提起了七次的復議而且是屢敗屢戰但是即便如此我們預期他還會繼續對他們不合意不滿意的法案來提起復議那麼現在這個行政院他提起復議失敗之後他並沒有很認分的就說是依法去行政而是他很快就會提起釋憲 |
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175.982 |
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200.375 |
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那麼民進黨的立法院黨團基本上也是配合著現在賴清德政府的這樣的一個做法配合行政院的做法只要是在總統公佈法律之後他們也會立刻提起釋憲這就像是立法院民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民所說的這已經是一種標配那對於目前已經提起的釋憲的法案 |
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201.255 |
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222.394 |
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和預算案已經有六件所以在這樣的情況之下本席想要請教蕭教授就是您認為將釋憲作為一個政治對抗手段將大法官扯入政治紛爭之中的這種做法是否正確謝謝委員長首先呢這個復議跟提起憲法訴訟是我們 |
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226.076 |
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239.352 |
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憲法上兩種不同的設計那復議只有在行政院跟立法院之間事件我想人民各機關都可以提起那有關於這個復議經過了多次的改變尤其是後來刪除這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
241.4 |
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260.033 |
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行政院長要辭職這個選項之後其實提起復議大概就是比較屬於政治上的一種手段但是提起復議的要件必須是行政院認為自然難行且經總統核可換句話就是說提起復議要總統跟行政院同意才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
260.697 |
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276.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那他們的標準不是這個法律違憲是他認為自愛難行那至於是不是自愛難行這個有時候就不是那麼樣的客觀可以明確的去判斷那至於呢這個提起憲法訴訟因為他有非常明確的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
278.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
302.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
尤其是他處理的基本上是憲法上的問題所以我個人認為兩個性質不一樣這邊謝謝您因為我還有其他問題要問所以剛剛蕭教授也提到重點確實現在把婦役跟釋憲可能就當成是一種政治對抗的手段那麼本席在這邊要進一步請教大法官要如何去防止 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
311.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
濫刑釋憲的行為事實上就是很多我們剛剛講到受理申請釋憲案的要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
313.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
338.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
要行使职权这是一个重要的要件可是呢事实上我们看到就是在最近的这一年里面不管是行政院或是立法委员他们在提起申请释宪的时候到底他们是不是真的已经有依法去行使那个职权可能有的时候根本还没有开始法案才刚刚通过连实施都没有实施他就立刻申请释宪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
363.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
而且更誇張的是大法官還受理了所以就是說從憲法法庭的角度我們明明看到了現在存在這樣的一個憲政的問題就是政府機關會用拿這個釋憲當成一個他們政治對抗的手段但是我們絕對不希望看到憲法法庭變成是一個政治惡鬥的底下的一個工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
364.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
369.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
首先呢就有關於這個立法院提起這個釋憲的時候以前在大審法的時候規定的比較不清楚那大法官在解釋的時候曾經提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
391.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
必須是提出事先的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
426.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式所以假設你在制定法律的時候沒有反對你就不能提釋憲我想這是一個防止濫權的方式也就是說在立法的時候我什麼都不講反正到時候再提釋憲我想這是一個防止的方式那第二個防止大法官介入這個濫訴當然我們大法官在涉及到中華民國領土判委的時候就提出一個概念就是政治問題政治問題我們不介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
428.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
448.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
只是當時候大法官並沒有很清楚的告訴我們哪一個是政治問題當然在國外也有一些標準可以提供我們做參考不過我覺得只要是純粹的政治問題基本上大法官應該也不介入那這樣的話透過這兩個方式可以減少一些不必要的憲法訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
449.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
478.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那當然因為每一個訴訟類型都有我想這個部分我要再進一步請教您因為您剛剛講到有關於少數立委提起申請釋憲的問題我們也最近有看到其實大法官在受理立法委員申請釋憲案件的標準不斷的浮動尤其是在今年五月民進黨委員申請憲法訴訟的這個案子然後大法官在人數不足的情況之下還特別開了一個說明會我想任憑誰都可以看得出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
478.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
498.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
这大法官明显的新政为什么这么说呢因为过去我们认为说这个少数立委提起这个视线他必须是从早期这个可能一开始是必须要投下反对票而且呢还要等到他是不是有之后曾经有在提出修法案修法案为国 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
498.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
525.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那么才符合申请事宪的要件那么到后来不断的演进尤其是到这个去年的国会改革法案的这个大法官受理事宪案以及到最近其他召开的这个说明会可以看出来他这个立法委员的反对从过去我们认为你至少要是在三读程序一定要表示反对现在已经可以扩大到说二读程序他就算是没有反对或三读程序没有明显的反对也可以说你们明明知道我们在这边抗议 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
526.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
544.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你們就知道說我是在反對雖然我沒有投下那個反對票也沒有舉手反對但是大法官依此就可以去認定說他就是反對所以可以同意受理民進黨黨團的這個申請釋憲的這樣的一個案子這是不是已經過於胡亂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
547.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
569.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
未来我估计会不会连在委员会开会审议法案表达不同的意见他只要有表达不同的意见就已经符合了所谓的少数立委在表达审查案的时候有投下反对票可以把这投下反对票可以无限的扩张如果说您未来担任大法官您会能够接受像这样子的一个标准吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
570.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
599.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所謂的反對當然是一個相對啦不是絕對的不確定法律概念那不確定法律概念解釋原則上是司法機關但是呢如果立法機關可以透過立法技術讓這個不確定法律概念更加明確的話我覺得是一個解決方法就是說比如說我們在憲法訴訟法裡面就規定什麼叫做反對你必須做過什麼樣的事情才叫反對那在還沒有立法明確規定定義之前那這個不確定法律概念解釋當然是司法機關的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
600.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
621.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
司法機關的職權它的解釋當然除了要用一般解釋方法之外我覺得它要有連貫性要一貫性這是我的想法至於是要廣義的採取或是狹義的採取我想每一個人的想法不一樣但是我的想法很簡單要一貫謝謝謝謝蕭教授的建議您剛的建議我已經記起來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
625.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
643.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我之后我就会提这个立法院职权行使法的修法将少数立法委员反对的时候才能提起事先反对把它定义清楚那么我想基本上就是我们知道每一部法律的制定和修正理论上都会存在的少数立委不赞成的情形但是呢我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
643.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
657.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
如果把每部法律因為只要有少數立委可能在不同的場合裡面只要表示反對意見就可以去申請釋憲的話那麼未來司法院就可能會憲法法庭就可能會成為立法院的諮詢機關那麼我們認為說這樣子其實也妨礙了大法官這個要 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
662.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
692.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
办更重要的事情要去做更重要解释的一个空间好那接下来我要谈的就是说因为刚前面的委员们有提到有关于这次的宪法诉讼法的修法那么将宪法法庭的平决门槛还有做成违宪的判决的门槛都提高那么您认为这是不是属于立法形成自由有关于最高司法机关的程序的权利那目前来讲全世界分成两个 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
692.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
712.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
一個是給最高司法機關的程序自主權但是我們國家從大法官會議法大審法一直到憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟的進行我們的程序基本上我們國家的慣例是由立法委員制定程序法規來依循 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
713.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
736.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好谢谢所以也就是说基本上立法院是有这样的一个立法形成的空间我们可以针对随着时代的不同这个情势的一个改变我们可以有权利去修改这个宪法法庭的这个评议门槛还有就是开会的人数那么这部分的话我认为说其实现在 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
738.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
760.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
包含司法院以及這個立法小數民進黨立法委員認為說這是有違憲那本行是不贊同這樣的看法我也希望說大法官他現在已經受理這個案子雖然說我認為說他根本不應該受理但是如果說他真的是受理這個案子的並且進行審議的話那麼我認為說他基本上應該還是要考慮到有關於立法形成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
762.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
780.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
呃呃這個空間要給立法者有更多的可以去制定修法的這樣的一個呃一個一個裁量的一個權利啊好那麼接下來本席好再請教就是說呃因為在去年憲法法庭連續做了兩件引起社會輿論嘩然的判決一個就是反廢死一一三 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
781.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
784.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我剛聽到好像有些地方你不是很贊同對 就是我要先講哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
803.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
830.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
沒關係這樣好了因為我時間有限我還是直接就詢問就是說其實本席特別在意的就是有關於國會改革法案當時大法官其實在憲判自9號判決裡面其實做了對於我們的立法院職權實施法的修法多數條文都宣告是違憲的那麼在這邊我想請問你你是否支持大法官的意見認為立法院是不能夠處罰說謊的政府官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
831.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
856.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那對於這些為虛偽不實陳述或無故缺席政府官員既不能苛語刑罰也不能夠處罰更不能移送監察院您是否贊成這樣的論調有關於這個藐視國會的問題因為這個是一個全世界大部分都有的制度那當然我們看的主要都是美國不過藐視國會在美國是用刑事制裁這個我不是很贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
857.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
874.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是,本期在這邊提醒你,不僅是美國、日本、法國、德國都有苛處刑罰因為我剛有聽到您在詢問賴瑞龍委員的回答您基本上是不認為台灣有必要去苛處秒死無悔罪的刑事責任那對於審訊處罰呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
878.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
893.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
法環我們當時在立法院執權刑事法修法的時候我們其實對於虛偽陳述或無故缺席等等這些藐視國會的公務員我們有科除兩萬元以下兩萬元以上的二十萬以內的這個法環您認為這樣的處罰也不合理嗎在585號解釋裡面對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
898.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
912.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
責任已經有一些討論了我個人是認為說行事責任我覺得他是最有手段以目前台灣的情形比較不適合然後行政責任或者內部的責任這個我贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
912.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
922.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
但是對象應該只限於公務員一般人民我現在只是針對政府官員所以你同不同意可以處罰可以給予行政罰款對 但是就是說處罰的構成要件一定要明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
929.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
953.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是我不知道就是說蕭教授你有沒有看過我們的仔細看過我們的這個立法院職權刑事法的修法我們所有的修法的條文內容都跟現行在散落在各個不同行政法規裡面處罰虛偽陳述的條文的過程要件是一模一樣的我們並沒有特別增加也沒有就是特別的模糊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
954.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
970.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那麼所以就這個部分來說的話本席基本上認為說未來我們還是要朝向要再去制定藐視國會的處罰這個方向去做那麼在這裡我想請教就是如果說依照大法官現在的解釋到底我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
972.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
993.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
從權力分立制衡的角度您認為立法院還有什麼樣的制衡工具可以去防止或者是去針對官員說謊拒不提供資料等等這些情況我們有什麼樣的一個制衡反制的措施因為我們國家目前還是無權分立的狀態對於政府官員來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1000.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1024.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
移送監察院這個當然是一條道路我們不管現在監察院運作如何但是大法官也說立法院無權移送監察院當然其實大法官所做的這個解釋也很奇怪其實任何一個人都可以把這個案子移送監察院只是我們把它明文寫在裡面但大法官也認為是不行移送公務員最好的方式就是違法跟失職以前的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1025.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1044.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那現在我覺得比較麻煩的就是說雖然剛剛委員講過我們的那個很多條文都是在其他的法律裡面這樣把它搬過來的但是我可能要提醒一下就是說因為在立法院裡面的質詢回答他比較充滿了比較多的政治語言 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1045.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1064.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那政治語言在大法官的解釋裡面他是相對比較衝向的我們現在講的虛偽不實無故缺席拒不提供資料這些都是非常清楚的事實而且如果說立法院正要處罰我們還經過立法院用會的同意坦白說那個門檻非常高啊比行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1065.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1081.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
这个认为哪个人民他这个像我们最近报税如果有报税不实立刻就处罚了我们在立法院我们要去处罚一个政府官员有类似像这样违法事实的行为门槛非常高程序也很难过的就很难会通过的 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1082.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1110.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
对所以呢这个部分我想这是完全不是政治语言这就是一个很清楚的事实那么我想因为您刚刚讲的意见我大概也都知道了您大概也不反对就是说可以做行政处罚但是就是希望能够这个在事实证据更清楚的情况之下然后才能够做这样处罚那么我刚刚已经说了假设我们立法院还要继续去推动处罚藐视国会的这样子一个条文您认为 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1112.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1138.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
會違憲嗎您曾經在二十多年前寫過一篇大作就是法規違憲解釋的拘束力裡面有特別有提到有關於大法官解釋的拘束力是否會拘束大法官本身還有立法機關您的看法呢如果說我們今天立法委員立法院經過多數我們認為重要的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1139.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1146.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這是民眾民意所支持的法案我們重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規這有違憲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1148.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1169.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
首先就是有關於有沒有拘束大法官我想大法官的制度裡面本來就可以做補充解釋而且我們大法官制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的這個例子就是那個強制道歉的案子所以拘束力是有但是原則上是相對的只要你的後面的理由是正確的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1170.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1182.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
至於大法官的解釋或是憲法法庭的解釋有沒有拘束後來的立法者這個要看情形如果一模一樣的那這個當然有拘束力 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1183.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1205.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
如果已經做了調整跟原來的法規沒有一致性或是就是他已經有改變了特殊的狀況那當然就是可以重新實現這個沒有問題所以我想就是因為我非常贊成您在當時這個大法官解釋效力的這個文章裡面所提到的其實我們的立法者 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1205.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1223.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
他也要與時俱進能夠跟民意做就是能夠回應民意的這個需求來制定合理的這個法律的條文那麼本來立法就有創造補充修正的這樣的一個機制所以呢立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1224.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1246.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
所以立法者基本上如果說重新制定相同或者是類似的內容在沒有人提出這個申請釋憲違憲的情況之前它當然還是有效的 是吧就是我說的應該沒有錯就算我們制定了相同的條文內容制定了類似的條文內容但是在沒有人提起釋憲之前被憲法法庭確保違憲這應該不夠重違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1260.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1266.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好謝謝謝謝翁小林委員詢問也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明 |