| IVOD_ID |
163052 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163052 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T16:16:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T16:37:12+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2bb0d0af414fb209c1bf9ea3712864e9cb5545a92025017dfc5522444ca3f0ffcf300a208d967c955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
徐欣瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:16:32 - 16:37:12 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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請登記第七位徐欣怡委員請詢問謝謝主席 本席請證法官麻煩再請 被提名的證法官請說明 |
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政法官您好委員好您被總統提名為中華民國的大法官本席相信這個是身為法律人的榮耀本席也看過您的自傳還有相關的學經歷本席也對於您過去的專業學經歷深表敬佩今天我們會站在這裡 |
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主要就是為了我們要替人民尋找值得信賴的民主憲政忠誠的守護者我想您也了解大法官他不只是法條的解釋者他更是民主憲政的守護者防火牆所以 |
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我想今天希望您能夠放開心胸把握機會在這裡非常坦誠而且明確的來回答以下本席有三大重點的議題要請您向大眾來表達今天您要 |
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在這裡向大家證明您是值得託付的也是會守護我們民主憲政的大法官首先本席想跟您請教現在台灣社會對於重大暴力犯罪仍然有很強烈的判死的情緒民調也顯示有八成以上的民眾支持死刑 |
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那本席就想請教您對於死刑制度的基本立場是廢死還是保留就這個問題首先我想要講的是 |
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法官個人對於死刑純廢的主觀想法並不重要因為憲法的解釋是要依據客觀存在的價值體系法官不會因為他個人價值的偏好去取代憲法的價值所以死刑要不要廢除的這件事情 |
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162.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
179.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
他其實是問題是說大法官可不可能經由憲法的解釋去廢除死刑應該是這樣的一個問題那就這個問題也就是說從憲法的目前憲法建構的價值體系裡面死刑是不是合憲還是違憲那就這個問題來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
183.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
199.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我的結論應該就是不管是從就是說113憲判8號他從生命權的保障去著眼或者是其他大法官他從國家刑法權手段的這個憲法保留事項去 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
200.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
229.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
探討目前來講就是死刑作為國家刑罰權的手段的這一點是沒有違憲的那在沒有違憲的前提之下要不要廢除死刑那我覺得這個是民主程序要去解決的因為您剛剛提到了我們一一三年憲判制第八號的判決所以我們特別把它設定的七項程序保障列出來我想您很熟悉 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
230.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
259.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那所以本席在這邊要接著追問因為剛剛您也有提到我們這七項裡面前六項實務上多已逐步落實那部分已透過這個法服制度或內部改革在進行所以您是否認為這六項就前面六項的程序保障已經足以對被告實質具有公平的訴訟權利保障請您檢答這個部分是不是這前面六項就夠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
262.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
282.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我要講的就是說目前實務上確實已經在做這六項所以這六項就足夠了那這第七項您覺得它是可能辦得到的嗎要一致決各級法院合議庭一致決那您支持或反對這個一致決的設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
285.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
295.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個我覺得是一個程序上的問題就是說從我這第一個第一個我想就問您是非題這個一致決您支持或反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
297.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
323.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
就是這第七項的 要各級法院合議庭須一致決妳認同嗎 妳認同要一致決嗎他的前提 我覺得就有商榷的餘地啦也就是說從程序上的觀點做不到嘛 對不對 一致決是不可能的是不是可能 這個都不是我們說了算你要他每一審所有法官都判死 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
324.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
335.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那这个是几乎是不可能好 没关系虽然您说这个是不是可能的你无法来这个回答那所以您支持这个一致绝的设计吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
336.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
361.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我的我的問題是說他有一個前提問題我覺得他是關於那個刑法是不是就有死刑這件實體法規定是不是合憲的一個申請其實適不適合納入那個程序法的合憲性要件這個我覺得是值得商榷的那尤其是不是刑法他本來就規定有死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
362.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
386.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
不是我的意思是說是不是需要一字決他才合憲這樣的論述是有一點點需要討論的而且一字決這件事情是現在我們的法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法都沒有的那大法官提出這樣的一個可能大家會覺得很突兀主要是因為在整個辯論的過程當中他也沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
386.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
409.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
就是說大家並沒有聚焦在這個地方所以可能大家都沒有呈現這個焦點以至於判決出來了之後大家就會覺得這個部分是沒有受到就是比較充分的辯論跟討論那所以如果您當年當年您就在憲法法庭你會支持這種結果嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
431.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個我沒有辦法回答假設性的問題妳還是可以坦誠一點回答因為大家也在看妳的態度還有立場我剛剛的那個回答其實已經有就是說就是審判的範圍跟程序的保障這個部分是需要去討論的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
432.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們的這個憲法不能不該偷偷改變我們社會對死刑的共識所以本席在這裡呢本席也表達我們本席的立場很清楚就是台灣現在應該保留死刑那這不僅是法律問題這更是社會正義跟民意的交匯點 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
453.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
477.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們社會上有超過八成以上的民眾不贊成實質廢死 八成以上因為很多人擔心如果一旦我們國家的最高刑法死刑廢除了治安將惡化 而惡犯無所畏懼所以我們不能讓法律它成為冰冷的文字忽略了民眾的恐懼與憤怒 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
479.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
497.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那也有人說這個廢除死刑是文明進步的象徵但是本席更相信真正的文明進步是既能懲治邪惡讓惡徒畏懼也能夠保護好人防止無辜的蒙冤您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
499.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
512.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我目前也認為就目前我們的整體社會秩序跟民意還沒有達到廢除死刑的共識而且我也認為就是說它的前提應該是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
514.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
516.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
好 謝謝您接著本席要進入第二題第二題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
558.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有關司法遷移在實施憲政體制而且賦予法院司法審查權的國家像美國還有很多先進的民主國家司法遷移已經成為許多法官奉行的司法理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
559.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
580.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
您應該知道司法遷移吧我想您的法學素養也是非常好的所以本席第一個想問的就是說司法遷移對您而言是什麼這個大概就是司法自治吧也就是我們就是依法審判然後再具體司法遷移只是一個自治嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
582.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
607.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
就是他在面對 除了是依法審判之外在面對一些其他權力衝突的時候在什麼時候介入他必須要持有的態度那所以像在當代民主社會中立法者他是代表人民的意志我們是民主憲政的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
609.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
636.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
經過政黨政治在國會的討論協商整個民主程序形成的法律這樣多元的整合是整個代議政治的基石所以請問當法律的核限性受到挑戰時大法官是否應該謹慎的介入那立法裁量您認為違憲審查的最低介入門檻界限是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
639.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
652.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個問題很抽象可以請委員再具體一點嗎其實很簡單就是立法院是我們中華民國最高的立法機關立法院通過的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
653.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
673.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
司法院他應該不是立法院的這個上級機關所以對於立法通過的這樣的一個法案那大法官介入您覺得這個最低介入門檻是什麼可以任意介入嗎還是應該多謹慎的介入 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
674.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
690.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個部分我想我們向來的那個司法院的釋字的解釋先例他有去闡釋這個界線他有什麼他有去闡釋那個的界線也就是說原則上他的那個程序的審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
692.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
710.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就是它的程序審查它通常它就有一個比較寬鬆就是有一個標準在那實體的內容的話當然就要看有沒有抵觸到憲法的基本原則我本席就在跟您討論這個我們也觀察到很多您剛剛講的解釋文像四字204號228號477號 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
714.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
741.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
有太多過去大法官解釋他都再三的強調一件事立法裁量是憲法賦予立法機關的自由領域可是我們觀察到現在近來市縣機關的憲法法庭有越來越嚴格的審查密度以及越來越侵入立法裁量權範圍的趨勢所以這一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
742.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
766.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
本席想表達的就是說我們的法官 大法官們其實都是學有專精 這個法學素養非常好但是也是屬於學歷優 可是背景純粹單一都是法學出身 同質性高但是立法院是來自全國民眾的名義 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
768.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
789.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
113席的立委是帶著不同區域的民眾的名義來到立法院包含不同的領域教育經濟不同的族群這樣的一個名義來到立法院有等於說從我們整個我們國家的我們從社會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
791.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
809.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們從山邊到海邊從本島到離島我們這113席的立委他是代表全國的民意在這裡制定出來的法令法條這個我們大法官可以任意的這樣子介入嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
811.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
828.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
您的看法委員如果講任意當然就不行那是不是這個司法遷移是不是應該謹慎世界各國還有過去很多的大法官都是這樣的一個態度所以本席要請你表達您針對司法遷移您的態度我的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
833.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
858.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以就是剛才講的那對於這個過去對於這個立法院通過的法條但是呢這個大法官就這樣子有很多呢介入否決您的看法你都沒有了解有這樣的所謂的介入或者是那個當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
860.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
887.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
對於那個有沒有違反了憲法的基本原則大法官還是要去做審查這個是無可避免的審查是OK但是要不要介入所謂的審查跟介入這個怎麼樣去定義最後判決出來包含你看刑法他有死刑剛剛我們講刑法有死刑可是大法官他怎麼可以他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
889.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
917.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
解釋出來以後他要一致決這個就違反啊您剛剛也講啊沒有 我的意思是說我要講的就是說其實如果是法治國原則的話各個領域都必須要受到拘束本席覺得您對司法遷移似乎沒有很重視但是因為時間關係本席要進入我們今天第三個本席要跟您請教也要聽您的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
919.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
939.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就是您應該了解什麼是麥卡錫主義麥卡錫主義有聽過有聽過不熟悉嗎請說就是像幾百年前的中世紀就是所謂的獵巫現象您了解嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
941.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
968.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
請問委員要問的是就是好比如說幾百年前的中世紀人們呢因為這個無知或是恐懼點燃了這個獵巫的火把那也就是說對於很多的事情沒有任何的證據然後就隨便的栽贓或隨便的入罪所以我們今年啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
969.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
979.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以台灣今年我們114年台灣社會現在正陷入一種麥卡錫主義的陰影您的看法呢你還是不知道我不是不知道我是要請問一下委員指的是什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
990.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1017.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
說陷入這樣的陰影指的是什麼樣的事件或者是針對什麼樣的事情麥卡錫主義我花一點時間是在50年代我不是說這個主義我是說我原想要問說目前社會上所以你知道麥卡錫主義了了解現在社會上對於很多這個立場不同的人比如說現在我們的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1019.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1045.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
有很多的民代媒體甚至國安單位或者是匿名帳號對於人民或政黨進行無證據的指控甚至指控為什麼共諜紅色滲透共產黨中共同路人這種指控讓台灣陷入一種麥卡錫主義的意念您不知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1051.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1069.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以我原想要問的是什麼那對於這樣的麥卡錫主義現象您的看法是不是確實存在這樣的一個現象它是一個事實問題啊所以我沒有辦法去做回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1071.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1092.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
現在很多啊 社會上好 那本席具體的來問好了如果有公權力或是輿論的勢力對異議者進行無證據的政治標籤和懲罰是否構成了對基本權的侵害我這樣問抽象的問題當然會構成那具體的案例是不是好 譬如說 我再具體一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1095.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1112.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
沒有任何證據可能這個有些人他只是出席某些場合見了某些人然後就被貼標籤或指責說是舔共是中共同路人是共產黨你覺得這樣是不是侵犯了所謂基本權對當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1115.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1138.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
委員問的這些問題其實都是一個假設性的問題沒有假設性 現在都發生 您很少看一些媒體或輿論嗎不是 我的意思是說 它到底是確實的情節是什麼那這個人其實要看到具體的案例這樣子無證據的指控 這樣的行為是否違憲是否有侵害基本權 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1140.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1168.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
如果照委員講的所謂無證據的指控那他當然是有可能侵害了他的權利是就是這樣但是到底現在都這樣怎麼樣的情況這個我們當然就是要個案來認定這個是作為法官沒有辦法去回答這樣算不算那樣算不算我要有具體的案例看到相關的事證但現在您沒辦法判定但剛剛您已經回答了以這種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1170.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1197.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
譬如說我們的憲法我們是保障我們的民眾思想包括言論各方面的自由那甚至剛剛本席說的沒有任何的證據隨便看到出席某些場合他就直接指控而且就貼標籤而且大肆的撻伐這個應該就危害了整個的基本權也是違憲的行為吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1203.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1208.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我還有時間委員是要回答嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1211.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1232.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
因為抽象的問題如果照那個構成要件符合當然是但是具體的情況是怎麼樣我沒有辦法回答這樣子也就是說如果他真的是無故的去做這樣假設去個中國大陸回來就被貼為舔共或者是共諜或是紅色滲透這樣的指控是不是就是違憲好 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1237.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1240.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
謝謝許新委員也謝謝被提名的兩位相看兩無言 |