| IVOD_ID |
163047 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163047 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T14:30:16+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T14:51:17+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:21:01 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2bb0d0af414fb2090451e62fe627a2e1cb5545a92025017da25c3c273445b7f6a8298b5aff6b46715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:30:16 - 14:51:17 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝主席有請被提名人曾法官麻煩被提名人曾法官再次說明 |
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背題名人您好我有特別看了一下您送出來的簡歷資料了解說您也是從基層出生並不是出自於達官險要的家庭 |
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那這個部分其實我相信對一個法官來講整個人格的養成還有學術的養成其實這個背景是非常重要的那我看到您那個時代大概也是只能夠靠教育翻身所以你有特別提到你透過讀書考上了北一女 |
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高雄公專 女士專我其實背景跟您也差不多就是來自山區非常底層的家庭也是透過讀書考上台南女中高雄公專 屏東師專但是我們的家庭做出不同的選擇你的父母鼓勵你讀高中你成為一名法官我的父母則是鼓勵我去讀師專 |
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124.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
成為一個老師校長特別是您有提到很多人這段時間都會去問您說為什麼你會接受大法官的一個提名你有提到因為你覺得你默默的從事這樣這麼多的案子的審判甚至我看到你勇於提出很多的不同意見書 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
125.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
148.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
所以你覺得這樣子默默工作在司法過勞的一個狀況之下能夠被看見為什麼不欣然接受那我也是這樣的心情就是做一個默默耕耘的教育工作者當有人來找我們當政務官人民的託付選我們出來當立法委員我們為什麼不好好的做這份工作來回饋這個社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
149.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
165.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以我這樣子提的原因是想要跟您就教一下因為您這樣的背景同時我看到您目前是最高法院民事大法庭的法官所以你對土地的議題應該是非常的熟悉對吧會承辦到土地相關的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
171.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
196.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那因為我們原住民我這幾年做立委的工作我發現我們最在乎的議題也是土地那我看到你其實在108年度有一個台上大字地1636號的裁定這個你應該非常熟悉吧是關於什麼樣的內容因為有時候暗號太多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
197.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
197.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
像今年二月 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
213.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
234.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
媒體有披露一個關於原保地的新聞就是提到在苗栗縣泰安鄉有一個當地的原住民的鄉民代表他花了九百萬買了十三筆土地然後去設定抵押兩億元給共同開發的一個有中資的開發商 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
236.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
264.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
然後說蓋的是當地溫泉區的一個五星級飯店我想請教你就你的食物訴訟經驗來看這樣的一個超額抵押的情形通常會發生在什麼樣的狀況這樣的一個就是一個很具體的問題我可能要看就是要要透過那個所有的市政我才能夠做判斷我沒有辦法直接這樣回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
292.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我來說提醒你一下因為對我們所謂的原保地的借民登記通常就是類似這樣的一個狀況他可能用500萬元價值的土地但是他就設定抵押1億元這樣的狀況層次不窮就是你永遠還不起的一種借貸關係等於你把你所有的權力都讓不給他了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
293.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
311.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以呢雖然名字是我的但是呢實際上這筆土地已經是對方的嘛所以呢我們對於這個110年9月17號所做出的這個1636號裁定其實對我們原住民來講非常的振奮因為這個上面寫著說 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
312.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
334.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
非原住民已借民登記簽訂買賣契約設定地上權及所有權移轉等行為違反法律的禁止規定依民法第七十一條應屬無效所以我想要來先請教您就是你們在合議庭做出這個裁定它的關鍵原因是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
336.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
351.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個就是說其實那個元寶地他當時的立法其實是為了原住民的生計所以很多原住民就會基於經濟的考量去做一些利用但是他就是說基於那個其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
352.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
369.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
原住民土地應該是包括這一塊而必須要受到重視的所以如果我們內建他其實有一個前提也就是說當他今天是做一個脫法行為然後就是說表面上看起來沒有怎麼樣可是實際上他就是要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
371.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
398.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
迂迴的去迴避說應該要把這個原保地保留給原住民這樣的一個意旨的時候我們認為這樣是不可以的那我其實我們感到很振奮的就是其實這樣的一個說明非常的清楚因為提到就是違反法律的禁止規定因為在原開辦法裡面其實寫得很清楚原住民就是限制原住民之間買賣 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
400.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
401.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以呢 就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
402.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
432.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
如果他现在的行为买卖的行为他就是法律白纸黑字上面是不允许做的即便花多少钱去买不是你的就不是你的所以我们觉得刚提到说违反法律的禁止规定的时候移民法第七十一条应属无效我们觉得这样的一个裁定非常的明确也没有可以辩驳的空间所以我们都觉得很棒但是我就是要提到说既然民事大法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
432.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
445.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
已經做出裁定了統一的法律見解所以理想上來說應該是行政部門行政機關立法部門或者是私人民眾應該都可以跟著這個裁定走沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
447.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
475.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但是很遺憾你看從110年9月17號有這個裁定到現在四年的時間我們還是看到原住民族的土地仍然透過各種規避法律鑽漏洞的方式就是我們的土地呢就是不斷的在流失而且學者學界他已經有做過一個保守的估計大概目前私有原保地11萬公頃多 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
477.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
499.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
至少一半都已經流落在非原住民的手中所以根本防不勝防所以我想要就教就是您就是被提名人如果您過去擔任民事大法官多年的專業角度就是除了訴訟以外在這個裁定基礎上有沒有更積極的做法可以從源頭來解決這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
502.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
526.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我想這個問題的面向太多端了因為司法上面的關係很多都是透過契約的行為所以就審判來講我們只能透過事實去認定他是不是脫法行為這件事情去界定他至於其他在行政上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
527.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
539.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就是去防範這些事情我想這個可能就要進一步讓行政部門去做處理這樣子所以您認為是行政機關處理而不是透過立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
558.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
立法的話這個當然也就是立法要用什麼樣的方式定到什麼樣的程度那這個當然也是立法材料的問題當然現在原保地我們的法源叫做原住民保留地開發辦法那它的上位有一個叫山坡地保育利用條例 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
559.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
584.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以像原保地他是開發辦法這樣的法律位階他其實沒有辦法能夠去承擔民事大法庭的裁定也沒有辦法符合你剛剛講的就是符合憲法增修條文第十條第十一項他所揭示的您剛剛特別提到就是原保地是原住民文化經濟最關鍵的基礎載體如果土地都流失了文化怎麼傳承 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
585.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
613.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
原住民經濟自立要怎麼實現這個也是當初這個判決的一個很重要的意旨所以提升法律慰藉有沒有他的必要我覺得這個是可以就是可以用這樣的方式因為其實整個原住民包括就是他的傳統領域權這樣的一個整個的界定他是不是除了公有地之外也應該包括私有地我想這個應該做一個是整體的去所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
614.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
629.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以我就是要提醒目前保護原住民土地的法可以說是零所以我們非常需要一步關於原住民族土地保留地傳統領域的專法或者是專章 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
630.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
648.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
讓土地他被保護的規範可以更明確權責更清楚避免了被目前這些專法律漏洞的這些變相手段來侵蝕所以今天你作為大法官的被庭名人我希望如果你未來獲得大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
649.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
675.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個憲法守護者這個重要的職務那面對像我們原住民目前有很多的立法空白或者是權力侵蝕的地方我希望你能夠支持並且承諾未來如果再做釋憲或者是審查相關的案件能夠持續你過去在民事大法庭對原住民族的支持來去做保障跟法治化讓原住民的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
676.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
702.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個權利可以在憲法層級獲得真正的尊重跟實踐您做得到嗎可以好 謝謝那另外最近也有一個很重要的判決我也想要來請教您的意見就是在上上週最高行政法院有做出一個487號的判決那意思就是說他們對於目前的傳統領域劃設辦法說 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
704.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
733.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
要把原住民族的傳統領域僅限於公有地他說逾越原基法第21條第4項授權的目的跟範圍並對於原基法第20條政府所承認的原住民族土地權利及21條第一項所賦予原住民族的諮商同意程序權增加法律所無的限制也就是違反法律保留原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
734.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
754.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
為什麼這個很重要因為我不知道您知不知道蔡英文總統2016年上任之後的隔年2月14號那個時候公布傳統領域畫色辦法結果呢就是把原住民的傳統領域僅限於公有地引起嘩然甚至有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
755.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
781.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
捍衛土地的著名歌手巴奈他在凱道上抗爭2644天就為了抗議這個發射辦法的不足不對所以呢這樣的一個114年6月25號出來的判決對原住民來講真的是長期的一個訴求獲得了一個回應為什麼因為他說得很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
782.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
806.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這本來就是很簡單的道理他違反了法律保留原則原基法他又沒有把傳統領域分公私有因為那是過去的傳統領域可是我們的行政機關卻用位階比較低的劃設辦法去限於說傳統領域只能有工有地所以我為什麼要特別來強調這一點就是想要救教你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
807.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
811.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
就是這個最高行政法院判決的效力怎麼樣是個案還是通案 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
813.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
843.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我想他是個個案沒錯但是他所闡述的這個理念是可以引起大家來共鳴或者是討論的那我基本上是同意這樣的見解因為我也認為就是原住民跟他的土地之間傳統的土地是有深層的精神聯繫的那因此經過很多原民運動才爭取到的那個傳統領域權這件事情應該要包括所謂的公有地跟私有地 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
843.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
844.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
是否都應該要參考這個見解 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
861.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
877.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個部分因為大概涉及到原住民的那個諮商同意權所以這部分應該都是行政法院的那個就是行政法院他們細數的案件所以我才特別要來問最高刑如果有這樣的一個見解對他們的下級法院應該會產生一定的影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
879.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
903.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我為什麼特別要問因為我們都覺得這個判決非常重要為什麼因為它涉及到原基法第21條諮商同意權的適用範圍其實諮商同意原基法在訂定它是為了要去落實聯合國原住民權利宣言當中所提到的自由事前知情同意也就是所謂的FPIC原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
904.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
926.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以我們的中華民國憲法徵修條文第十條也有明定國家應該保障原住民族的土地權利但是現在的實務就是看到如果這些開發是在私有土地他就會繞過去去避免跟部落溝通這樣的一個義務所以我們知道這個爭端其實是來自於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
928.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
952.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
對於私有財產權現有的法律現在的法律對私有財產權的保障所以我要特別請教一下被提名人國家在哪些情況下可以限制人民的私有財產國家在什麼樣的情況下可能要看具體的情況也就是代替通勤權就是看具體的情況用法律去規定他都市計劃區段徵收 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
957.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
982.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以這些都是法律容許的嘛一定程度的介入限制嘛所以其實是有的嘛對不對法律是可以嘛所以我請教就是如果我們按照我們剛剛講的聯合國FBIC這個核心原則事前知情同意跟剛才我講的那些手段對人民的損害程度是不是明顯小很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
984.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1008.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我想這個諮商同意權的這個部分應該要落實落實先諮商然後再同意參與我想這個應該就可以解決這樣的問題所以我就是想要請教就是說在私有的土地上面建行所謂的事前同意事前同意它是否必然等同侵害了人民的私有財產權 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1009.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1037.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我想這個應該不是吧因為原基法本來就有規定原住民土地是包括這一塊的好謝謝因為我們也都這麼覺得所以我在這個地方就是說事前之前同一制度的設計其實只是為了讓國家的法律不要忽視我們很強調的原住民族是先於國家的集體土地權這個很重要而不是去侵害任何個人的權益所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1038.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1067.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
他只是反映出我們國家一個非常核心而且長久存在的問題就是原住民族土地的集體權跟國家以私有財產權為治理基礎這個兩個之間有很多的衝突有很多的想像跟不明確所以我請教就是您是否認為在原住民族土地上即便那個土地是屬於私有也應該要遵守事前知情同意這種基本權利對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1068.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1089.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個我是贊成的謝謝您吼那這樣的一個機制吼不應該我們都把它簡化說哎呀會侵犯私有財產權應該是我們反而是要去透過好的一個制度設計去保障原住民的集體權利跟尊重個人財產權之間我相信你也同意吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1090.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1110.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
因為我覺得這個是原住民自覺權的一部分所以我現在就是請教就是你作為一個法律專業者我很想要請教你就是你怎麼樣去從制度的一個角度去實現這個平衡我希望你未來做大法官你能夠往這個地方去努力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1113.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1125.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我希望你可以往這個方向努力那因為時間的關係我最後一個議題來請教您我先跟您說這個是關於選區劃分選制的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1129.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1155.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
像上一次的地方選舉2022年在新北市有一個原住民族人他想要去選新北市的議員但是呢就是被駁回那被駁回的理由其實也很簡單啦因為就說你可以選但是你必須要放棄你的原住民族身份那我不曉得說你對於這樣的一個法律見解是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1157.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1173.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
因為這件事情事實本身我並不是很了解但是我初步聽起來這個應該是被選舉權的行使跟原住民身份權之間的保障兩個之間的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1175.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1193.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
他被中選會根據選罷法撤銷他的資格那內政部是這樣回應就是說如果原住民去選這個的時候會衝擊到非原住民的參選權益這個需要社會共識那這個明明我們憲法第17條是人民有選舉罷免創制及複決權這個能不能主張違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1199.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1215.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
這個我要看具體的情況我是這樣子想這本末倒置因為如果我們去看我們的憲法增修條文他其實是保障我們的基本席次他不是限制我們的參政權他只是保障席次 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1215.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1241.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
他去他並沒有去提所以這個部分他也會去牽涉到為什麼我們去講這個問題因為我們現在原住民的選區也有過大的問題那這個部分其實也因為時間不夠的關係我希望未來如果有機會我希望那些問題你都能夠好好的來思考那因為我們有一個共同的目標就是我們要遵守憲法這是我們共同的目 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1245.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1261.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那也希望這是我們原住民最後一道防線我們原住民最後在這個國家體制下最後的依賴就是我們的憲法那我希望你們會對憲法保障享受的權利好不好謝謝 |