| IVOD_ID |
163045 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163045 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T10:57:36+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T11:18:03+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:27 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2bb0d0af414fb2095301aa5af76d23d2cb5545a92025017de79da5e98ab413eab6269e3722f5e7cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
何欣純 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:57:36 - 11:18:03 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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好 謝謝院長 我們請蕭教授再請被提名的蕭教授說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
13.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
37.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
蕭教授好我爬出了一下你個人的資料所以蕭教授多年來投身公法學術的研究也為台灣培育了很多的法律人才因為我知道你在中正大學任教於30年我剛剛又稍微看了一下你的經歷除了教學研究工作之外你有擔任過行政職而且在 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
38.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
55.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
考試院內政部跟地方政府包括台中市、彰化縣、雲林縣、嘉義縣等等都有擔任書院委員會的委員也擔任過交通部的法規委員會的委員等等我要強調的是看起來你是一個除了研究、學術、教學 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
58.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
77.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
之外還有實務經驗那這一點我認為對於大法官未來的職務非常重要為什麼因為呢大法官呢不僅僅是一個獨立的一個憲法的守護者那我們更期待國人也更期待大法官更貼近人民而且能夠與時俱進 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
79.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
104.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所以希望透過今天的詢答能夠了解您如何將您過去的這些學歷經歷背景轉化為未來可以捍衛人民權益的具體作為所以今天我想請教您認為在憲法法庭作為憲政民主跟人權的守護者如何在民意的期待跟憲法原則之間取得一個平衡呢蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
107.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
111.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
首先我想如果作為一個大法官他最主要的工作就是解釋憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
112.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
134.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
解釋憲法的依據就是我們憲法本文跟政修條文還有憲政慣例還有歷來大法官跟憲法法庭的解釋那這個是我主要的依據至於剛剛委員所講的民意或是輿論我想作為一個人一定會受這些影響這個沒有問題我們也不要說很清高就是說不行我絕對不會受影響但是這些影響應該只是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
136.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
150.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
輔助性的決定性的工具呢還是在這些客觀的價值跟法律秩序我從不否認就是說一個人的出生甚至一個人的這個教育背景當然會有特定的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
151.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
167.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
一個人如果沒有特定的想法我想就不適合當作是一個正常的國民或是現代人所以蕭教授我可以這樣解讀嗎因為你在回覆本黨團的書面資料裡面有提到這個個人的價值理念民意跟社會輿論 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
168.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
185.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
是影響判決的可能因素之一而且個人價值理念與民意及社會輿論會隨著個人成長與時代發展而有所改變這是你的回答剛剛你的回答是蠻符合的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
185.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
204.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以我想包括我在內國人期待的大法官不僅僅是一位堅定的憲法守護者更是一位能夠與時俱進理解人民情感了解社會跟民主脈動的憲法溝通者這樣子的論述這樣的基調你同意嗎我贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
205.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
229.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你贊成吧 是不是所以我們期許如果人事統一權通過之後你獲選為大法官那您未來可能會受理到的人民申請的事先案裡面我希望能夠本於這樣子的一個態度作為一個憲法的守護者也能夠作為一個憲法的溝通者這是我們大家的期許那接下來我就要請教你了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
231.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
253.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們從數據上看到這三年來憲法法庭受理並且做成裁判的案件中有75%是來自人民的申請而這些案件是人民窮盡所有法院審計救濟管道之後對國家跟司法的最後一道的希望那還有期盼也因此大法官每一次的釋憲都會實實切切影響到人民權利的保障所以國人 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
259.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
277.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
對司法、對大法官有很深切的期待但是我想請教一下蕭教授你看過一齣雖然叫戲劇但是卻是一個名作而且很多國人看過之後都非常有感受一齣戲叫做《我們與惡的距離》你有看過這一齣戲嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
279.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
282.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我為什麼會提起這一齣戲?這一齣戲引起國人很大的共鳴而且也引起了很多的討論在這個討論裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
300.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
325.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
大部分的國人都會有一個想法包括我這幾年來在外面跟人民接觸跟基層接觸大家都會說為什麼司法跟人民的距離這麼遠教授你你認為呢我想司法跟人民的距離如果是要這個委員所講的以及很多的調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
326.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
346.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
大概有下面三個原因第一個原因就是說法律講話太不直接所以有所謂的法律白話文運動可是我覺得白話文越講好像也效果不好那我就會回去想就是說很多專利我們也看不懂啊為什麼專利不用白話文化為什麼法律要白話文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
347.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
366.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為關係到人民的權利所以這部份我們要繼續努力的去加強而且理解司法對於人民的保障然後第二個就是我們傳統的講法我用台語講一心中盤 二心村盤 三心地下彌生 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
367.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
387.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那這個我相信在以前的話是沒問題但是就我個人而言我接觸的同學來講因為現在資訊這麼發達這個我想不敢說沒有但是應該在逐漸減少中那我想第三個大概是最大的問題因為我們這個訴訟一定有勝敗 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
390.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
419.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那在台灣理論上勝的人要高興啊敗的人要不高興可是假設照我們的民調來講司法應該要有50%啊因為贏的人會高興啊可是看起來都是二三十三四十那表示什麼輸的人不高興贏的人也沒有很高興那到底這個問題在哪裡呢我想最主要的理由應該是這個啦那到底為什麼輸的人一定不是不高興的我覺得這個沒問題但是為什麼贏的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
420.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
434.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
還是一樣不高興呢我個人是這樣覺得啦就是說可能大家在對於法院的判決上面其實輸贏是一件事情另外一件事情以中南部的人來講就是我服不服氣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
435.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
451.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
有的人輸了很服氣有的人贏了不服氣所以我個人覺得說最主要的應該是我們法院在判決理由檢察官在起訴不起訴的理由裡面要做非常完整適度的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
452.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
465.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那這個為什麼會有缺陷呢其實我常常跟老百姓聊天他們就說法官為什麼會那麼簡單的就這樣寫我會跟他們講說你來這裡你一輩子才來一次啊他們每天都來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
468.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
483.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你一輩子只有一個案件可是他們一天要做30個一年要做所以你講到這一個部分有關司法裡面的負擔的問題不是負擔的問題而是說我們希望大家互相的去體諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
484.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
499.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
人民要體諒但是責任要在司法系統我們要盡一切的所能把可能的理由或者就說人民的主張尤其我在溯源會的時候我們一向主張人民有什麼主張我們要一個一個回 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
500.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
529.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
就是說就算他的主張非常不合理你還是要用簡單的幾句話去交代有時候人民明明知道自己是錯了可是他要爭一口氣在台灣有很多這樣的人民但是你只要跟他講說你錯在哪裡他就OK了那所以蕭教授你認為你剛剛所敘述的這些算不算是國人對於司法改革的期許之一你為司法改革國人期許很大而且認為我們的司法改革程序很慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
532.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
538.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我必須要誠實告訴你我們台灣社會普遍認為台灣的司法改革很慢而且台灣的司法改革做得很艱難 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
552.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
577.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個就是會牽涉到大家對於法律的信任對司法獨立審判的制度的信任對大法官的服不服氣跟信任的問題喔是 我覺得因為貴院的委員有直接的民主正當性所以你們的這個成敗呢就反映在選舉那行政機關甚至法官他沒有直接的民主正當性雖然我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
578.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
600.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
最後還是要經過貴院的同意我們有尖尖民主正當性但是呢我們的正當性呢應該主要是建立在我們的說理就是說如何把理由說清楚讓人民信服我覺得這是我們要去做的但是這種說理的工作呢需要很長時間的累積但是呢要破壞一下子就破壞掉了所以我個人是覺得說我們還是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
602.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
617.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
跟所有的司法人員一起來努力我們盡量把我們的想法意見跟老百姓溝通然後做成決定我覺得這樣是最對的所以我期許如果未來你擔任大法官之後那在解釋憲法的時候不僅僅是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
619.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
634.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
法學制度跟所謂的學理深度更要與時俱進貼近人民跟社會的期待而且就如同你說的以身作則希望跟司法體制所有的從業人員所有的司法人員大家共同來 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
635.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
657.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
做到你剛剛所論述的讓人民無論在哪一個法院哪一級審都能夠獲得公平的對待而且是要能夠服氣這一句話最後一句話是最重要的為什麼現在台灣人民對司法不信任不服氣這個其實我們要深自檢討大家要共同努力對不對蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
658.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
683.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以我才會剛剛一直提醒你我們作為這個憲法的守護者我們也期許作為是一個憲法的溝通者所以憲法法庭要能夠正常運作我相信今天早上有其他委員有提到我們今年五月立法院三讀修正了這個憲法訴訟法把這個做成判決的門檻提高為十人出席那違憲的宣告需要高達九人同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
684.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
704.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
尤其現況我相信你也清楚才會有今天的審查我們有七位大法官任期屆滿然後現在只有八位所以造成目前憲法法庭無法做成任何判決我們希望這一次大法官的一個審查跟人事同意權能夠順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
705.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
731.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那這個順利是因為我們關係到人民申請釋憲未來他的權利的一個守護所以無法現在的憲法法庭如果沒有辦法正常運作那對人民權利造成的影響蕭教授你認為呢基本上我個人是這樣想就是說因為我們憲法徵求條文裡面規定的大法官法定原額是15個 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
732.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
752.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那如果法定原額15個跟現有原額一樣的話那10個人9個人10個人8個人那個影響不大那為什麼會有這麼嚴格的當然就是說希望不要由少數的大法官來決定但是這個規定最大的問題是在於他沒有設例外規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
753.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
769.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
沒有設例外規定也就是說我們所有的程序的規定都是要讓組織能夠運作我們不要定一個程序組織沒有辦法運作如果沒有辦法運作就是癱瘓憲法法庭當這個組織沒有辦法運作憲法法庭沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
772.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
799.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個開庭甚至做成決定的時候我覺得這個可能就是要有一些例外規定來處理因為很少國家像我們這樣所以也不見得每個國家都有例外規定我個人是覺得說我們以前的三分之二、二分之一這個不高啦因為以前也有四分之三、四分之三的但是因為以前四分之三、四分之三存在的意義就是說它不會有例外規定它就全部都到齊 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
800.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
819.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那全部都到齊的情況之下就算你要求四分之三的絕對多數還是開的起會四分之三的可決還是可以做決定所以你的論述是告訴我們說之前呢是不管再怎麼樣訂的一個高標準那還是開的起 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
820.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
840.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
開的出這個憲法法庭就是法定跟現有人數一樣現在是沒辦法連開庭成立的這個人數都達不到沒辦法嘛就是說法律的規定是理想的啦但是我們要顧及現實面因為台灣的情形有時候跟國外不太一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
841.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
855.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以假設原來的規定是沒有問題的台灣的經濟跟國外不太一樣的有就是說我們以前我們本來規定八個七個這樣換那委員也知道兩年後有四個的有兩個的那就是我們的缺額會不斷的產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
857.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
877.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
本來我們當初的設計就四年一次就好了那現在變成兩年都要一次啊所以當初的設計呢就出現現實面的問題那現實面的問題呢我們就要用例外規定的方法來處理我個人是這樣覺得就是說十個人九個人十個人八個人那個基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
879.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
894.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
形式上沒有問題但是你一定要去注意例外的情形萬一七個人甚至將來有可能假設我們隨便舉一個例子過了兩個過幾年會剩下六個啊那六個根本離十個更遠啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
895.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
913.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以你會建議 如果按照你這樣子的論述跟看法那你會建議如果未來擔任大法官有人提出釋憲那你會怎麼樣做決定因為這是已經在提釋憲了我個人會認為就是說我們很多的法律規定都有原則例外關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
915.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
932.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
原則例外就是要去處理那些比較特殊的個案但是不能因為說沒有規定例外的特殊個案就否定了原則因為這個會很危險所以我會不是只有憲法訴訟的問題其實很多規定也是一樣我想委員在 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
933.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
951.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
地方喔因為我在台中市書院會常常碰到那個來申請這個社會救助的那我們發現呢很多人很可憐為什麼他的資產啊什麼都符合規定他去年是符合規定的可是呢他今年變成什麼他繼承了他父母的一個房子那房子就 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
952.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
971.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
就超過那個啊可是他其他其他都沒有改變啊他沒有改變但是他就因為這樣沒有沒有辦法得到補助所以我們就建議台中市政府就說原則上你還是維持這樣但是這種例外情形你要增加例外規定讓個案可以得到正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
972.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
993.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
但是你不能就說你前面那個全部都是錯的 全部推翻所以你在未來的憲法訴訟法的這個視線裡面你的態度也非常的清楚那這個例外原則我想對外說清楚我覺得要讓憲法法庭能夠運作而且實務上是能夠真正的回應人民的期待跟守護人民的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
994.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1011.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
你剛剛講的要能夠開的成啊對對對對對如果實務上沒有辦法運作的話那開不成人民的權利就是被影響那這個部分其實就是我剛剛一開始也希望說要符合人民的期待要守護人民的權益最後一個問題就在於你剛剛講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1014.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1042.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們對於過去很多的憲法法庭的一個釋憲案的一個結果那很多人民呢都認為這個因為人為制度的關係憲法法庭陷入了只問診不開藥就如同你剛剛講的我憲法法庭有開啊我受理的你的釋憲案啊開會了之後呢我後來的判決結果呢他只告訴你合不合憲違不違憲但是後面的一個理由呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1043.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1069.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
說的不一定清楚那也說的不清楚的情況之下那可能呢 限於我剛剛強調的就像白人去看醫生那醫生問診 跟你講你大概有什麼症狀但是呢 醫生就沒開藥給你吃 沒有藥方人民事先要看到的結果沒有藥方我不知道該怎麼進行或者是行政機關我看到你有幫我爬梳出問題但是沒有給我解方 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1071.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1098.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
不明確那我覺得這樣子的窘境是未來憲法法庭我認為如果你身為大法官一定要去面對跟解決的你同意嗎這同意 這我同意因為法律本來就不是一個強迫的過程是一個說理的過程這是我一直的想法所以我現在期待的不僅僅是說理說理完之後要有解方要明智的 明白的告訴人民你可以如何走有哪些解方 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1098.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1115.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
如果是行政機關來申請釋憲那你也能夠明確的指出那問題在哪裡之外說道理之外那行政機關應該尋什麼樣的程序來修法也好或者是有什麼樣的解決方式就是為台灣的民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1116.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1137.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
來找出一個出路跟解方嘛這個困境我們要解決要面對不是嗎是就委員剛剛講的問題我們這次的憲法訴訟法相較以前的大審法或是大法官會議法已經改變了因為以前的大法官會議法跟大審法它基本上那個主文都就像剛剛委員所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1138.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1146.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
你覺得哪一句話對的你就哪一句那現在的憲法訴訟法已經改變了因為我們是一個法庭我們會有判決主文 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1147.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1174.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
基本上主文的意見都蠻清楚的也就是說不管是最近幾年來的哪一個地方是合憲的哪一個地方是違憲的其實都蠻清楚的當然如果還有不足的地方我們會依照委員的意見去做改善 謝謝是啊 所以我還是再一次的期許希望未來你擔任大法官之後應該要一起窮盡憲法解釋的一個智慧跟方法然後為現在台灣人民的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1176.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1194.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
市縣的一個案件能夠尋找出一個說理的過程跟未來的解方包括對行政單位的一個視線我們也希望能夠有明確的方向跟解方而不是只有說道理而不是只有過程過程之外要有解方那我相信 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1196.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1215.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
蕭教授你也知道台灣現在民主的一個困境是在於我注意到你過去在中正大學對於野草苺太陽花跟聲援香港反送中運動裡面你也都有參與連署所以對台灣的民主你有信心也堅定的一起站在台灣的民主這條道路上對不對是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1221.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1227.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
好 謝謝何欣淳委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名的蕭文森教授的 |