| IVOD_ID |
163042 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163042 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T09:11:42+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T09:32:08+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:26 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2bb0d0af414fb209ce2da297caca2e50cb5545a92025017de79da5e98ab413eaf1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:11:42 - 09:32:08 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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蕭教授麻煩請被提名的蕭教授蕭教授早安我在擔任新北市法治局局長的時候因為那時候需要多了解一些地方自治方面的事項有拜讀過您很多資料以及您著作的書謝謝您帶給我非常多的知識 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
53.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我想我在這邊先跟蕭教授報告一下因為我昨天在詢問另外一位大法官的被提名人的時候其實我有提到就是說我認為其實我對大法官的想法並不是說要求大法官在任何一個公共議題上面想法要跟我一樣所以我不會著重在譬如說廢死與否或國會改革與否等等的這些一些細項上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
54.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
77.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
要跟我一樣因為我認為公共政策本來就會有各種肯定說否定說所以我都會予以尊重而且跟我一時一步一樣這也不是大法官適不適格的一個重要論點但是大法官我想還是需要的一個點就是第一個他要有一定的專業度再來他必須懂得大法官是做什麼他是解釋憲法法律的衝突以及統一解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
78.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
91.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那他不是創設法律嘛尤其在法律並沒有現行法律並沒有漏洞的情況下其實司法是沒有造法的這個權限的那還有一個重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
92.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
118.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
就是大法官有沒有勇於對抗政府的這個勇氣當然我說的對抗是告訴政府你違憲了的這個勇氣所以我覺得這是我心目中大法官應該要有的那個樣子因為我看到過往的大法官譬如說王哲健 翁岳昇 吳根等等這些大法官其實他們在歷次有重要的法案的時候譬如說檢察官的搜索權 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
119.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
135.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
譬如說集會遊行法行政機關的預先審查等等他們都展現了對抗當時執政黨的勇氣但是我看不到現在的大法官還擁有這樣的勇氣所以我今天有個標題在前面就是不要與神同行要與人民同戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
136.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
151.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
因為大法官是全民的大法官是保護我們的大法官是保護我國憲政體制的大法官不是保護執政黨的大法官這是我對於大法官的我心裡的一個期待我想蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
173.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我不知道您有沒有聽過一句話財政是樹木之母 缺少自主可自由運用的財政經費地方自治團體無法享有自我負責決定之權而僅是中央政府的下一機關這句話您應該很清楚吧對這是您自己書裡面地方自治法基礎理論與實務2019年版第89頁的一句話這應該您很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
178.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
202.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
照你的書上面寫,您應該是非常認同地方的財政自主權,是不是?是或不是?當然啦,你要保,憲法如果要保障地方自治,人跟錢是一定要的好,那謝謝齁,那我今天想要跟你討論就是這個部分因為最近發生了一個事情,您一定非常清楚,就是行政院他刪除地方政府的一般性補助款,總額達到636億 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
205.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
228.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那內政部長劉世芳除了大喊說我們是台灣國大喊說要改路民然後恐嚇大家租屋的補助金不夠然後告訴大家說但是改路民都有錢在這些狀況之下這些都是涉及地方跟中央政府之間的事項我想說因為你對這塊很有研究所以我要請教你相關的這些議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
230.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
244.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我想在你的書裡面有提到一個點就是地方政府他在履行地方法定義務任務以及辦理最低程度的自治思想所需的經費中央不得已缺乏財政上幾副能力而置之不理這個您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
267.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這您書裡面寫的?這當然啦那我想請教第一個問題就是這次行政院主席總署他不分縣市的財政狀況齊頭市的停發27%的一般性補助款他這個嚴重衝擊到幾個財政狀況比較不佳的縣市例如說宜蘭縣譬如說苗栗縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
268.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
295.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那這些錢呢 他本來應該是用在一些那個社會福利制度啦 例如老人照顧啦學校營養午餐啦 等等的齁而且這些經費是早在去年8月 主席總署就已經核定了而且各地的議會也已經三讀通過裡面甚至還包括到一些警消 還有一些交通的基礎建設的經費那地方也都發包了 然後突然間中央說這個錢不可以給 你覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
296.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
301.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
你覺得這樣子地方還有所謂的財政自主權嗎我可以回答嗎可以 請說 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
302.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
332.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
首先就是有關於地方自治財政的問題我想這個是任何一個憲法保障地方自治的國家都應該要全力支援的為了要讓地方有充分的財源我們在地制法63條64條65條都規定了地方有10種不同的收入除了地方自己的收入之外中央給地方的兩個最大的財政的資助跟補助是統籌分配款還有補助款統籌分配款基本上是法定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
333.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
352.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
也就是說統籌分配款用法律的規定統籌分配我沒有問題這一般性補助款補助款基本上不是固定稅源因為補助款的解釋在大法官釋字498號解釋有對補助款有充分的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
353.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
381.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那基本上補助款因為他沒有固定的稅源所以基本上他應該是由中央政府或者上級政府依照他的財政來支援但是我們國家比較特別的一點就是說不管是在財政收支劃分法或是這個地方制度法我們都只有單純講補助款那委員所提示的一般補助款跟計劃性補助款是在行政院所定的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
409.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以我們憲法裡面並沒有分這個一般的補助款跟計劃型的補助款所以大法官4-498號他講得非常清楚就是說中央對地方自治團體得市期財政狀況予以適當的補助那重點就是剛剛委員所講的使地方自治團體能夠支應他財政的基本需求保障所有的國民都有一定程度的基本的經濟生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
409.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
428.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那我覺得這個目的是最重要的那現在最大的問題就是說委員所提出來的補助款裡面特別針對一般型的補助款因為大家都知道計畫型的補助款這個不是義務我們不要再扯到計畫型一般型的補助款到底有沒有義務持續給 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
430.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
449.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
站在憲法的角度來講是沒有但是站在法律的角度這個就可以討論因為我們行政法裡面有一個基本上的一個原則那個我跟你講因為我只有20分鐘的時間問你我想你一直要扯到理論很遠去我就想說不需要我簡單的就是一般性補助團 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
450.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
478.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
沒關係我了解的所以對於這個齊頭市的27%一般性補助款中央行政院說要刪除您是支持對不對我了解您這個講法就好不是不是我還沒講完就是說如果一般型的補助款它經過行政機關長期實務的運作它變成一種行政慣例過往沒有刪過加上行政程序法第六條的規定它就有對外的拘束力 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
478.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
485.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
只是說好那如果照你這樣講那中央就不應該刪啊他已經過往的慣例而且有對外的拘束力嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
486.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
509.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
過往的慣例是沒錯,但是假設啦,我們前提有假設沒有假設,那個蕭教授,我不是來這裡跟你辯論喔蕭教授,我是來請教你對於公共議題的想法那你如果要假設要扯到統籌分配款,扯到計畫性補助款,那個都不在我的問題範圍內假設中央的財政沒有減少,應該給 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
512.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
531.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這是我的想法因為我們立法院自己來訂了一個規定說今年的不能比去年少你要繞來繞去 我跟你講我認為的大法官我剛一開始我就講了要有勇氣對抗政府當然你可以我沒有說你一定要認同我們的想法或認同中央的想法但是我們要有個勇氣說我的想法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
532.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
556.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
沒關係啦 就這樣啦 我問到這裡我還是問不出我要的我的問題 其實我說真的 我是這樣我沒有要求每個人要回答我要的答案但是要就我的問題去回答那我請教你一個最簡單的問題 這你一定有辦法回答地方跟中央的關係 地方是中央的吹喊嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
557.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
583.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
當然不是 兩個是獨立的公法人對 所以中央跟地方它是一個垂直分權的關係對不對但是我們現在實務上面的運作變成是地方要苦苦哀求中央耶您知道地方現在實務運作變成這樣嗎然後中央今天他在預算的分配上面他喜歡誰就誰嘛行政院長甚至可以出來講一句話叫做有這個縣市的立委有配合我中央的政策優先發給 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
585.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
607.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個東西您學者的角度來看,您認同這句話嗎?因為他的立委知不支持我中央行政院的政策所以我的一些的預算優不優先給,給不給足我可以這樣子分配嗎?我可以這樣子嗎?我請教蕭教授補助的分配有法律規定如果依法律規定沒問題,如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
608.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
631.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
他的目的不是基於還是沒有回答我的話我還沒講完依法依法對你講依法沒有錯我也會講依法我只問你這一句話嘛這一句話行政院的這一句院長可以講這一句話這句話的法律依據在我國是哪一條法律你立法委員配合我那我就優先給你們這句話的法律依據為何請教蕭教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
632.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
638.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
如果立法院的內容是合乎法律規定沒問題如果立法院的內容不合乎法律規定那當然是不可以的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
639.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
661.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
重點就是我剛跟委員報告每一個立法委員他都有他自己選區的任務如果他的要求是合乎法律規定沒問題蕭教授我的問題非常的簡單行政院長講了這一句話有無法律依據要是我今天被您問我這個問題我就會說沒有法律依據啊但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
662.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
677.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我認同他的想法我非常支持他的想法這是一種論調第二種論調他有法律依據我就是告訴全國人民這條法律依據什麼第三種他這個東西沒有法律依據而且我不認同就這三個嘛你又再繞到別的地方去我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
679.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
700.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我沒有刁難你 你可以再回去看我今天對你的任何一個資訊我沒有刁難你 但是您都沒有回答我的問題我沒有要你回答我心中喜歡的答案 我都沒有要求這樣但是您要回答我的問題啊好沒關係 那既然一直問不到問題這塊就算了啦 我沒有期待了那我在 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
702.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
728.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
其實我跟你說啦我今天來這邊證其實我很多我以前的同事打給我說這個蕭教授很好一定要讓他過等等我說沒有我一定是依據我們審查的結果也不會因為我今天不認同您或是我覺得你沒有答到問題而我就會否決你我不是這樣的人我一定是看實際怎麼樣來做但是我要講的是我都沒有聽到剛剛我問的題目的答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
729.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
744.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這個答案不管肯定說否定說我都沒有聽到因為繞來繞去還是等於沒有說我在請教您在德國念書嘛您剛剛有講那我也有看過您過往的一些發言我請教您一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
745.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
772.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
德國的國會他有沒有調查權當然有那您之前其實有提到一個東西就是我先講一個民進黨的大前輩林卓水他曾經說過說他說第一個打造世界最弱國會的是孫中山第二個是蔣介石第三個是1993年的大法官第四個是現在的大法官那那個您之前他說我們現在台灣還繼續以五權憲法的名義在挑空國會的調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
775.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
795.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
然後再繼續鞏固行政院立法局的體制他把立法院變成是立法局那您之前曾經倡議過說國會行使職權法您有提到支持國會完整調查權明文界定調查傳喚罰還等等的手段跟範圍跟程序然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
796.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
821.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這就發生一個狀況就是您的這個東西都跟我之前在國會改革推法案的時候想法與精神都一致但是我們得到的是什麼就是被現在的青鳥以及民進黨的立委說我們是毀憲亂政法盲也就是您過往的理想以及德國現在的國會的調查權在我國會變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
822.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
840.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
當然你可以說他們三權我們五權嘛當然是有不同之處但是這些東西在我國推行第一步就會被人家說迴憲亂政以及法盲當然我不會說你法盲因為我也是認同您的這個這個您過往的這些想法另外就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
842.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
866.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這一次我看到美國的國會他在調查臉書Meta公司的時候主博客到國會去作證聯邦參議員跟他說了一句話說美國人民有權了解貴公司的真相但是到我們台灣來當我們想要了解超資雞蛋疫苗採購等等的時候以及或是我們在國會改革的時候我們希望把調查權放到國會的權限裡面的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
867.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
893.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
有一些委員就說你們是要把這些商業秘密問完之後交給中國政府這個就是我們實務上面遇到的一些狀況跟教授您報告是現在我們遇到這個狀況因為我看到你過往在論述這個德國國會以及對我國國會的一些想法的時候我發現這個想法當然跟我是完全我非常認同您的這些想法但是這些想法目前在 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
893.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
911.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
在我國的運作上以及在我國的執政黨的眼中其實我們都是在毀憲亂政所以現在我們連請監察委員監察院的官員到國會都沒辦法我們想要請國安會秘書長到國會也沒辦法所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
912.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
940.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們連想請領國家薪水的人來這裡他都不願意來所以這就是我們痛苦的地方甚至我們也是嚴守大公會解釋哪一些人不需要到立法院那我們以這些人以外的人我們請他來他也是愛來就不來也不用請假也不用說明那我們毫無任何裁罰制裁任何權利都沒有我想請問一下這樣子的國會您認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
943.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
967.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
謝謝委員提問調查權當然是國會當然在台灣還包括部份監察院的權利他是一個輔助性但是我認為是不可或缺的權利尤其是當然我們現在的情況不一樣尤其是少數黨的特殊權利因為少數黨只有透過調查權才能去對抗多數黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
968.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
986.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以一個調查權的好壞範圍跟實施的順暢與否這個是判斷一個國家是不是一個國會為主的或是說民主法治國家一個很最重要的一個關鍵那我們大法官解釋其實在525號解釋已經就 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
987.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1000.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們國家雖然是五權但是除了監察院之外立法院當然可以享有調查權這個沒有問題比較可惜的是說在525做完之後十幾年都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1003.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1020.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以去年這個國會職權行使法訂定之後呢其實對很多學習憲政的來講大家終於鬆了一口氣終於國會有真正的調查權因為光靠大法官585號解釋立法院是沒有辦法因為要立法院職權行使法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1020.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1043.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以就這個國會改革法案裡面剛剛委員談到很多問題我的初衷跟我寫的書一樣不過有一點可能跟委員比較不一樣的地方就是說我針對於藐視國會要罰則這個部分我的範圍是比立法院通過的窄一點當然我不贊成用刑法我贊成用行政法 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1044.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1062.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
是第二個呢政府官員不管是院長副院長部會首長甚至呢應邀備詢的政府官員這個有罰則但是一般人民我是不贊同有罰則謝謝那接下來就是說這個罰則呢除了行政法之外其實應該還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1064.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1086.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
立法院的內部的處罰比如說我們以前常常看到就是說不准你來出席可是這個不准來出席剛好順了他的意啊反正他不想來你禁止他出席我覺得這個是不正確的那我們現在行政法法的種類很多所以我是贊成如果調查真的能夠實現而且重點我剛喬 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1087.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1115.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
一再強調 調查權是要合乎立法院的職權只要合乎立法院的職權調查他不來我覺得可以用行政法去處理謝謝教授 因為時間的關係那當然教授大部分我們是一樣那教授對於說該不該有刑法以及怎麼處罰以及範圍 這個我都認同這個我完全認同 就是說這個只是對於範圍的部分大家想法不一致這個都是OK 但是主軸我們的想法是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1116.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1133.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我想說我最後因為時間的關係我想我在這邊提一下但是上一次國會的這個法案到最後這個都不應該有所以我們任何的一個裁法任何的一個對於官員的要求甚至我們說他來這裡不可以說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1135.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1146.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們連這樣子要去追究他責任的權利都沒有所以今天官員來這裡預算我們省預算的事情官員現在到國會也在說謊到外面宣講也在說謊 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1147.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1171.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
然後國會我們看到的行政機關的網站拿公家的錢設置的網站上面寫的數據也在說謊但是我在國會我當個立法委員我完全沒有任何的權利去制裁我想這個是不對的像您剛剛提到的德國我也看過德國的資料德國他就是尊重少數黨所以他認為國會要有給他們一個就是國會有調查權才能夠讓少數黨繼續去 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1173.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1192.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
監督這個國家一樣我們今天在台灣遇到的狀況就是當我們拿民主國家最基本有的國會的這個調查權以及監督行政權的這些權限到台灣都變成迴憲亂政我想我這個不用多說教授您也看得懂我也不讓您在這邊說一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1195.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1223.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
免得你被執政黨的立委修理最後我再跟各位跟教授報告如果您有幸擔任大法官請你看一下4至791號780號他們都曾經去推翻以前大法官的解釋也就是說如果有一天你有幸當大法官請勇於對抗以前錯誤的大法官解釋好謝謝吳宗憲委員的詢問也謝謝蕭教授的說明 |