| IVOD_ID |
163041 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163041 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-09T16:35:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-09T16:55:46+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d58b7c1f59c133a8279914535bb497189efda591dfa3bf307f8d542c67c48412d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:35:09 - 16:55:46 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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接下來我們請登記最後一位吳宗憲委員請詢問謝謝院長那我們麻煩麻煩再請背題名人請上台說明委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
32.117 |
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謝謝蘇貝平民人我想先跟您請教一下我們就直接切入正題跟您請教就是您在這次報告裡面有提到就是說擔任大法官主要是要保障人權那我想在民主社會裡面其實一個最重要的就是言論自由這個東西其實是一個最基本的人權那在憲法第11條還有大法官會議解釋445還有509號其實都說得非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.088 |
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言論自由他是一個人民的基本人權那國家本來就要給予他最大的保障那我想說我先跟您報告幾個狀況就是之前有網友他在Thread上面提到說陳菊走了結果警察在4個小時內就用IP馬上把這個人找出來那而且在晚上深夜23點45分就找到這個女子來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
82.859 |
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那當然大家就說警察抓詐欺就沒有這麼努力就是抓這個卻這麼快好那再來還有另外一個就是有民眾他去罷團的連署站去詢問一句說請問罷免賴清德是不是在這裡結果就被罷團報警然後被警察用社會法送辦當然就有法官認為這個根本不構成 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.706 |
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125.2 |
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所以我想請教 我想代替網友請教一下 以及國人請教一下您是這次的司法院的副院長的被提名人請問像這種連問都不能問啦 那個警察執法有沒有過當 有沒有逾越比例原則會不會導致寒蟬消音 我想請教一下您的看法 |
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126.267 |
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謝謝委員提問委員提到的是關於言論自由的部分言論自由呢大法官會議過去的這個事件的實務確實有非常多好的解釋是跟這個有關的那他們也強調說言論自由的重要性它是一個多元的民主社會 |
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143.67 |
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非常必要的 所以要給予最高程度的保障那在實現實務上我們基本上就是採的這個雙軌理論跟雙接理論不用跟我談這個 我想說當人民詢問這些日常的用語沒有傷害誰殺害誰等等 就是日常用語 |
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162.819 |
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是不是在這裡投票 陳菊是否走了這個東西卻被警察在深夜去帶人卻被警察以社會法送辦這個東西您認為這沒有侵害到言論自由或是警察執行有沒有違反比例原則 |
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177.469 |
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後來是不是法院已經覺得沒有違法我想請教您的意見從法院的標準是我是尊重法官的判決您的意思是尊重法官判決法官已經做了判斷我們還是要有勇氣出來說明要對抗這個我覺得我先談一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
195.091 |
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您是司法官30期我是40期我想我們念的書大概都是蠻類似就是吳根翁岳昇等等這些大法官他們以前寫的書我們因為級別比較近那我必須講這些人他們給我的感覺就是當他們在擔任大法官的時候他認為檢察官搜索權應該交給院方他認為 |
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216.238 |
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236.39 |
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集會遊行不應該讓行政機關事先去審查一些有沒有危險性有沒有必要性他們都敢去衝撞當時的政府其實這是我對大法官的一個深切的期待就是我希望選出來的大法官是勇於依據憲法而去告訴政府你做錯或是這個法律是有問題的 |
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237.59 |
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265.092 |
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我覺得您一定跟我想法一樣嘛我們都期待大法官是有勇氣代表人民對政府發聲的那個人而不是說重要的問題我們不敢回答好沒關係那我想說我再請教您下一個問題柯建民前幾天他講了一個東西他說726大罷免之後要用刑法100條來制裁處理在野黨立委那我想請教您刑法100條的構成要件你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
266.136 |
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284.665 |
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是內亂罪那一條嗎沒有就是那個內亂外患罪我個人是沒有聽到柯總召有這樣的發言那就是內亂罪基本上已經在實務上幾乎已經不存在我跟您報告一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
285.603 |
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304.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
您畢竟是我們的大學姐 我跟您報告上個會期我就有提出我當年我還是高中生以及大學生的時候我參加野百合學運參加廢除刑法100條的遊行其實我覺得這何其荒謬今天在執政黨的立法院總召出來說要用刑法100條來辦我們這些立委 |
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306.699 |
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322.835 |
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當年我學生的時候我站在街頭上陪著林三田老師陪著他太太在街頭上面日曬雨淋要求廢除刑法100條有關思想犯的部分我們希望流亡在海外的異議份子能夠回到台灣結果幾年後他要用這個條文來辦我 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
325.728 |
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350.864 |
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我心裡是什麼感受當年我為了台灣人民為了這些流亡在海外的黨外分子我們在街頭這樣子為他們奮戰要求修掉刑法100條思想犯的部分今天卻被一個總召拿著據說刑法100條來辦我們這些在野黨的利益我想跟你報告一件事情其實我覺得這何其荒謬回想我過去這段人生我覺得何其荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
352.435 |
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379.951 |
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我們越走越回去了 當年我還是個十幾二十歲的學生我就懂得要上街去捍衛這些異分子的權益結果今天卻要有人要來這個辦我們這些例文好 我就跟您報告這是讓我覺得何其荒謬啦 台灣走到今天這個地步是 委員我認同這個不能夠處罰思想反對那我想請問你喔 如果有人在網路上面發言說他要顛覆賴清德政府 請問一下這有沒有構成內亂罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.195 |
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409.673 |
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要看他實際的作為您說對了其實我們民主國家是不會去處罰一個人在腦中的一個想法所以我們的刑法100條從過往我們認為不應該有的思想犯到現在我們認為他一定要有實際的作為這個時候才會構成犯罪那一定要有強暴或脅迫實施我們才會構成犯罪所以你單純說我要顛覆賴清德政府其實這個沒有構成犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.353 |
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433.021 |
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不能夠把台灣今天又走回以前思想犯的時代那會對不起這些先賢先烈我過往非常崇拜這些人我覺得不管是鄭南榮不管是這些我覺得這些人他帶給我們當年那些理想跟著他們走結果今天為什麼會變成這樣所以我就想一想我心裡是很難過啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
435.034 |
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461.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
其實我市民的過世之前我有幸能夠有跟他遇到過有聊過其實我想今天這些民進黨的信徒真的對不起這些過往的這些人所以我真的只有一個感覺責任日以遠典型在素行他們帶給我們很多很好的這些過往的例子可惜我們這一輩的人並沒有跟上他們並沒有把他們發揚光大所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
490.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
過去4.45還有6.44也都寫得很清楚國家不能因為集會遊行團體主張共產主義或分裂過渡唯有就禁止他們團體的設立或者是集會的許可所以其實大法官在過往已經很明確表示說今天除非你的言論達到危險 立即危險的程度否則國家不應該予以干涉那我也多次講其實所有法律人都很理解一個金句 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
490.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
505.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就是我不同意你的看法但是我適時保衛你發言的權利我想大法官真的就要有這個風骨我不知道您認不認同剛剛委員提到了這兩號大法官的解釋我們都是尊重也遵守的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
509.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
525.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
因為您是國民法官這個制度的推手我想請教您因為這一次我們憲法判決他變成說要求死刑案件法官要一致決那這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
526.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
546.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這個東西跟當時那個國民法官法的修法方向就不一樣啊對不對那這樣子變成說一個專業法官他就可以推翻甚至六位國民法官的決定他一個人不同意就可以推翻這個就變得好像賴清德在第三講的說這個不是表決多數就是贏啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
546.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
567.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那這樣子跟您多次對我上YT有看您有談到這個國民法官法的一些想法您說要帶入一些國民的意見民意進入判決中對不對那這樣會不會變成說完全就把您當初推動國民法官的這個概念就不一樣了我不知道您想法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
569.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
595.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有關於113年憲八的這個部分因為他37位申請人的案件都沒有適用國民法官所以他的判決裡面我們不講過去我們講未來不是37位就現有的國民法官法的規定他平易的規定一般的案件的平易的量刑是二分之一那如果是死刑案件的話要三分之二所以在設計上 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
597.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
612.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟大法官宪判是是是他在設計上面他就是死刑案件要特別的慎重那大法官宪判出來之後有關於這個國民法官案件要判死刑要怎麼判的時候他有特別提到職業法官也要三個人同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
613.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
629.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
您沒有答到我的問題我想跟委員說的一個是說我來講一個啦這一次啦中選會莫名其妙沒收了我們立法院議決的這個反實質廢死的一個公投那剛剛王鴻薇委員也有問你這個問題所以我想我不要再問因為我剛剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
630.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
650.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
王宏威委員在問你這個問題的時候我一聽到這個問題我立刻站起來站在電視機旁邊用力的聽看看您是怎麼回答他因為他問你說這個有沒有違法違憲中選會沒收這個我們立法院預決的這個公投結果呢我在那邊聽了半天你沒有給出答案有或沒有你沒有給出答案所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
652.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
674.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我還是沒有聽到您最後的結論您鬧了一圈之後還是沒說所以我在那邊站著我只跟我助理說我沒有聽到答案所以還是回到我一開始講的我認為的大法官是要有勇氣跟政府說你不對了你違法違憲了我們期待的大法官世界各國的大法官都是這樣子在設置所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
676.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
685.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我認為啦 就是要擔任一個大法官的人甚至當時自然院副院長的人其實要有那個勇氣說出結論您一定懂 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
686.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
706.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
中選會沒收立法院的決議這個東西有沒有問題有沒有違反權力分立的概念其實我覺得您都懂但是您剛剛並沒有講出答案我以為我可以說明一下嗎就是作為一個職業的法官我們對於一個問題一定是聽過兩邊的說法聽過辯論之後才會下最後的判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
707.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
736.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那您這個提問呢我之前講過說他確實有正反兩邊不一樣的意見如果將來他確實是一個成案的話我們有機會可以聽到兩邊的意見還有法庭自由的意見我們再做最後的判斷我尊重您這個說法但是還是沒有答案我心中的答案並沒有得到解答那我再請教你其實我們在講就是你有提到說你們希望說司法是可以被大家所接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
737.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
766.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
判決 最希望說好的司法是一個判決是大家都能夠接受 大家都可以的所以貼近民意的司法這個是被害人訴訟權法治化我們是不是要加強這一塊我想過往你也有這個很多有關被害人的一些論述嘛因為我想 憲判八辯論庭他其實有犯一個很大問題就是他從頭到尾他37位殺人犯的家屬都沒有到場陳述 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
768.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
783.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們看到的是過往很多很多的判決其實大家在乎的是這個人怎麼被殺死沒錯這是構成要件檢察官法官只在乎的是這個人怎麼死的被開幾槍被殺幾刀但是大家都忘了這個人當年是怎麼活的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
784.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
806.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他是怎麼樣他對這個社會的貢獻他對這個家庭的重要性他對他的太太的重要性大家都忘了所以我們都忽略了被害人家屬他在訴訟上面該有的權益就現在訴訟上面被告有權利告訴人有權利結果被害者家屬是沒有權利他講的話在法庭上面一點用處都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
806.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
830.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
法官甚至不需要在判決書裡面提到也不需要在判決書裡面說明都不用也辯解都不用所以這是目前我國制度的一個很不好的地方您也有談過這一塊我不知道您記得嗎好謝謝委員提問關於被害人權益的保障你剛剛提到說這個被害人在量刑的部分他的意見可不可以進來那事實上我們現在的辯論有分兩塊一個是法律的辯論一個是科刑的辯論 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
831.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
846.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
在現在的刑事訴訟法裡面就已經有規定在柯刑的辯論要讓被害人來表示意見就是有一個比較新的規定是在柯刑辯論的時候讓被害人也進來表示意見被害人可以有代理人他可以請律師來幫他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
847.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
868.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
他也可以透過檢察官因為檢察官是對他有訴訟照料義務他有相當的管道可以表達我跟您說明一下其實這段時間有很多死者被害人已經被殺死了死者的家屬來跟我們講他們常常開庭都沒有傳喚他們到他們到場也沒有發言的機會甚至他們的說明也都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
869.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
891.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
顯現在判決書裡面我想跟您報告15有這個狀況家屬一再以及律師一再的跟我們反映所以我想我簡單的提一下最近這段時間發生幾個例子真的請所有我們的法官檢察官以及大法官們都能夠知道一個點我剛說的不要只聚焦在這個人怎麼死你要想想他當年是怎麼活 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
892.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
919.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就像台南那個殺警案兩位警官衝到現場為了維護治安就被殺死他家人是多痛那土城有一個劉警官他要攔檢那個那個獨駕的人結果他抓著方向盤被人家拖行到撞死那屍奪獎的那個女老師他只是為了幫家人煮一頓飯去買個東西然後就被殺死或是像新北戈侯案那個被人家砍了砍了七刀他在現場拜叫人家 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
921.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
946.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
那個同學不要再殺他了一樣照殺所以很多時候我們法律人忘了人性尊嚴這件事情就像邱連功老師常說的你要創造一個富有人性溫暖的司法制度啊他要求我們要重視人性尊嚴啊不管在刑事訴訟或民事訴訟都很重要但是我們今天的法官檢察官大法官都忘了這一塊所以我常 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
947.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
975.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
再跟家屬談談到最後我自己心情不好甚至都流眼淚因為那個痛即使我不是當事人我都可以體會到但是我們的實務以及我們的法官們都忘了這件事情所以拜託不管您如果有幸擔任市長院副院長真的還是要積極推動被害人以及他的家屬在訴訟上面的參與權因為目前我國以刑事訴訟來說第三條的當事人其實並不包含 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
976.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
998.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這些家屬你很清楚嗎那我們是不是我們的司法制度忽略了他們他們來跟我說他們是司法的孤兒他老婆被殺了就他是司法的孤兒這個真的是不應該我覺得制度不能忘了這一塊所以請問您您對於就是推動被害人的訴訟參與權您的想法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
999.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1022.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
是的被害人的訴訟參與權是我在刑事廳長任內通過的法案被害人的權益要保障除了司法這一端當然還有很多的包含社政警政還有法部這邊大家都要配合的地方是很多的如果法律已經有規定而我們的審判書的法官沒有確實做到的話我們會用 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1024.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1052.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這部分是民意網的主張我今天提出來也是讓您能夠說明而且讓國人知道你是支持這些被害家族在訴訟上權益的我們將來推動修法也請您那邊一定要多跟我們配合因為畢竟這個訴訟法是司法院在掌管的好嗎最後我想提一個這段時間我們遇到有法官跳樓司法過勞的問題有法官跳樓警察親身書記官過勞時 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1054.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1070.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那當然你說像一般消防員也有工作太辛苦或工作場所太危險等等的然後奪走消防員的性命我想說政府對於基層公務員的權益我覺得是嚴重的漠視那這段時間我也提出了很多想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1070.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1092.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那包括之前我也開了公聽會我也請了高院的法官現職以及已經離職的法官等等的都來說明講出點出問題在哪而且他們講的都非常的核心那我也多次找民事廳 刑事廳來開會討論那譬如說我們提到了避免刑事化的疏政調查程序以及避免二審完全覆審 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1093.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1113.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
這個都是能夠讓我國法官能夠減輕工作量能夠讓訴訟能夠繼續維持一定的品質的但是我等了一年多了我還是沒有等到因為一個立委最多一任就是做四年我等了一年半了我還是沒有等到司法院的任何回應但是那些法官我以前的法官 檢察官的同學們 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1113.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1129.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他還在水深火熱啊他們常常打電話跟我講他們家庭也沒了 健康也沒了沒有時間陪小孩沒有時間陪家人然後我自己很清楚我也是這樣過來的嘛那身體也弄壞了那這樣子的情況下我們要怎麼能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1130.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1152.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
要求有一個有品質的裁判呢所以對於簡化司法的工作量您有沒有當作是您一個重要要推動的事情我想這個問題是全國法院檢察官現在都想要知道的我首先要先謝謝委員關心我們司法過勞的問題然後也在司法及法治委員會提出很多的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1153.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1176.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那關於訴訟制度的調整你剛剛提到的是訴訟制度的調整現在事實上形勢的第二省是完全副省的國家已經幾乎沒有了那我們要怎麼樣去調整這樣的一個訴訟制度讓它更公平我覺得是可以討論的因為完全訴訟不經濟你一省要學英美法的交互結論就英美法不是二省再玩一次副省甚至二省就是法律省 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1177.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1201.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那我們今天去二審、四十審再一次複審你讓法官走一樣的程序浪費所有法官的時間浪費當事人請律師的費用其實我一直提這個但是目前都沒有得到審議人的回應是不是如果您有幸擔任副院長的話是不是可以幫我們盯緊這一塊全國幾千個法官檢察官都在等待這個改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1202.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1223.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
公訴檢察官也很辛苦好不好我想這個很重要然後還有裁判書的簡化裁判書的簡化我知道你們頒布了很多立稿但是目前成效也不大裁判書出來還是厚厚一本每個人還是跟我抱怨裁判書的製作最後我想我要跟你提不管公司部門都存在職場的霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1224.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1233.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我想司法院一定要注意到這個點因為這些法官、檢察官他們的身體跟健康都在抗議了請重視職場 |