| video_url |
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| 會議時間 |
2024-11-25T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部報告「獵鴞專案執行規劃」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
7194 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:31:06 - 10:31:00 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1739.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1749.395 |
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報告委員會出席委員7人與主法定人數好我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1750.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1774.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年11月21日星期四上午9時1分至11時20分地點紅樓301會議室出席委員盧美琳等10人、內席委員葉元芝等13人請教委員王定宇內席人員國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1775.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1789.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
行政院主席總署專門委員廖玉琳﹖主席林州級委員易軍﹖報告事項﹖宣讀上次會議議事錄﹖決定確定審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國軍退出與官兵輔導委員會主管書資部分﹖僅詢答國軍退出與官兵輔導委員﹖主任委員﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1795.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1809.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
國軍退儲役官兵﹑輔導委員會主任委員﹑贏德發及會計處處長蔡進滿報告委員盧敏林等13人質詢均由國軍退儲役官兵﹑輔導委員會主任委員﹑贏德發﹑副主任委員吳志洋﹑舊養養護處處長周新國﹑舊學舊業處處長慈玉蘭 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1815.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1841.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
及臺北榮民眾議院院長陳薇敏等即席答覆決議一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡打結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國軍退出以官兵輔導委員會與二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限則從其所定三委員王定宇所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報是本案令則其繼續審查宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1844.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1873.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
好 我們待會等出席人數足爾 我們再來確認議事錄請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項 邀請國防部報告《獵鴞專案執行規劃》．並備質詢 宣讀完畢好 首先我們在場的委員有陳永康委員今天的專案報告跟預算的案子由國防部長顧立雄率領同仁 我們先介紹部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1877.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1903.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
副參謀總長執行官黃志偉上將常務次長楊基隆中將權動署署長白潔龍總督察長是總督察長張元勛參事石文榮政務辦公室主任陳道輝 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1906.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1932.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
政戰局局長陳玉玲軍備局局長林文祥主計局局長謝其賢軍醫局局長蔡建松戰規司司長黃文啟執規司司長鄧克雄法律司司長沈世偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1935.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1951.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
整評司司長苗慧芬國防採購事主任趙雅萍人事參謀次長是次長劉佩智情報參謀次長是次長謝日昇作戰及計畫參謀次長是次長陳文新後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1966.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1974.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩蓮訓次是次長張俊志陸軍參謀長陳建義海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長王德陽後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉縣指部參謀長呂正芳 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1997.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2021.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長 劉清薰支通電軍指揮部參謀長 陳俊良軍情局執行長 鄧敦仁電展室執行長 許善純國防大學教育長 李承忠中科院院長 李士強 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2025.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2039.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
補充介紹我們到場的委員羅美玲委員我們剛才已經議事錄有宣讀完畢請問在場委員對於上一次會議議事錄有沒有遺漏錯誤或需要更正的地方沒有的話我們議事錄確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2042.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2068.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
本日會議邀請國防部報告《獵鴞專案執行規劃》．並備質詢那今天獵鴞專案執行規劃的報告那一併會處理比照過去愛國者三行一樣授權金額在預算數不變的情形下由國防部後續採購本席向我們在場同仁先說明首先我們請顧立雄部長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2078.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2099.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
主席：各位委員先進今日應貴委員會邀請就獵鴞專案執行規劃實施專案報告首先感謝各位委員先進長期以來對國防施政的支持與督測,在此致上敬意與謝承為因應中共今世經歷擴張及持續對我軍事威懾等嚴峻挑戰,國軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2101.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2106.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
陸軍依國土防衛戰略指導．並藉經二無戰爭經驗．以獵鴞專案對美採購．人員殺傷、彈簧刀300．及反裝甲RTX600等兩型．攻擊無人機飛彈系統．以強化不對稱作戰能力。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2119.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2131.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
為現階段籌貨之反裝甲型無人機數量尚無法滿足作戰需求,原規劃是國防財力緯度以後續年度再請爭取建案籌貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2136.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2165.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
針對本案裝備採購價格,經持續與美方洽商,發價金額已較原資會國會金額大幅下修若能於現階段將各專案部隊反裝甲型無人機需求納案籌貨,除可爭取更有利於我方的售價外亦可縮短後續建案之裝備籌貨期程,有助不對稱戰力建構及防衛作戰任性之提升,敬請各位委員鼎力支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2166.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2175.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
接續由陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義中將針對案況向各位委員報告,進行各位委員先進指教與支持。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2184.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2199.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
獵鴞專案執行規劃專案報告主席、各位委員先進以下僅就獵鴞專案需要徵購的原因及預算支應方式提出報告專案的內容獵鴞專案前經大院審查同意執行自113年度起 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2202.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2215.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
尋軍購方式﹚對美採購﹚人員殺傷及反裝甲等兩型攻擊無人機飛彈系統以及相關的支援裝備﹚以提升國軍不對稱戰力﹚滿足地面防衛作戰需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2216.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2233.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
執行概況,鑒於攻擊型無人機與俄烏戰爭之優異戰果本部與完成無人機整體運用規劃,再考量急迫性,貨裝期成,美方出估報價及國防財力先行編列預算新台幣60億餘元,優先籌貨滿足戰備急需 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2237.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2258.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
後續是國防財力預渡再行徵購反裝甲型無人機已完備企圖佔領本案前已經大院在112年12月三讀審議通過美方於今年的6月進行智慧國會的程序公告金額為115億餘元為預印後續預算不足以及膠裝騎乘延後等風險本軍因依建案規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2264.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2287.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
呈報整體獲得規劃書的修訂作業：並於8月29日奉行政院核定．原列入114年度起．納入預算編列．經我方與美持續洽商及精算後．每方於111年．更正每方於113年8月．分別提供本案兩行裝備發架書．合計55億餘元需求規劃． |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2293.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2310.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
評估當前敵情共軍企圖運用兩棲登陸船團所配備之各式裝甲車輛對我採取正規並非正規登陸奪取臺灣的主要港口、灘岸以及機場以達快速奪臺的目的對我防衛作戰產生嚴重威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2313.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2329.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
國軍為使敵無法成功建立攻勢基地,目前已陸續籌獲、脫勢及標槍飛彈等各式反裝甲武器。另外,依照建構不對稱戰力的指導,籌建獵鴞專案,預計可獲得976套增攻型無人機,其中採購反裝甲型無人機291套具備反裝甲作戰能力,以強化摧毀共軍戰甲車輛的作戰效益。 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2343.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2357.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
藉近二部戰爭的經驗﹐無人機為左右戰場勝負關鍵之一﹐國軍仍需強化地面全重生防衛﹐反裝甲打擊的能力﹐故需增購反裝甲型無人機﹐針對近岸水域 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2358.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2360.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
以獲得不對稱作戰的優勢,強化全眾生防禦能力,提高國土防衛作戰成功公算。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2374.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2400.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
預期效益反裝甲型無人機滯空時間長導控距離遠其性能結合多重情資獲得的手段以及戰術運用可於敵登陸的進程即時獲知敵對我最危害的行動同時有效擊毀兩棲載具裝甲車輛以及後勤補給設施等重要目標以持續拒止消耗進犯敵軍提升作戰效益 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2401.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2420.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
本案已經完成發嫁書的簽署﹐刻由美方與合約商辦理簽約、備料及產製的作業﹐增購反裝甲型無人機的需求﹐如獲大院同意﹐後續將採修訂原案發嫁書的方式來執行﹐避免重啟建案﹐可以大幅縮短貨裝期程﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2422.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2445.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
徵購的數量除了可以滿足防衛作戰的需求以外﹐亦可藉大量的籌購批量規模﹐與美洽商爭取調降供售價格﹐必力發揮國防預算的最大效益﹐結與﹐面對中共快速奪取臺灣﹐避免外力介入的企圖﹐國軍戰力整建並持有效灰色地帶應儲﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2446.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2469.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
不對稱戰力建構﹚提升後備戰力﹚強化作戰韌性等四個原則﹚增構小型、精準、具成本效益的反裝甲型無人機﹚發揮集中擊打能力﹚結合戰術運用﹚除了符合戰力整建需求﹚亦能在降低採購成本與縮短貨裝騎乘的有利條件下﹚儘速提升國土防衛﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2469.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2482.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
各類型作戰部隊．打擊高價值目標的作戰能力．懇請委員支持本案預算執行．並就完備預算審查程序予以指導．以週延作業程序．報告完畢進行委員指導。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2484.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2488.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
好,我們請陸軍參謀長請回那今天我們就《獵鴞專案執行規劃》來詢答並備質詢過去我們在愛國者三行購買他的彈體的時候也有類似的情形,也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2500.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2500.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
本會委員6加2分鐘,非本會委員4分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2520.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2540.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
發言登記截止,如有臨時提案,請各位委員在10點半以前提出,11點左右本席會示發言詢答情形來進行處理。現在首先請羅美玲委員上台質詢。謝謝主席,有請顧部長。來,部長請。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2548.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2548.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
是 羅勇 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2550.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2550.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
國防部報告 獵鴞專案執行規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2581.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2598.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
當初我們接到這個公告金額的時候我們有沒有去反應怎麼會差距這麼大因為這不是幾千萬美金不是幾億美金而是幾十億美金的這個差價這部分我們當初有去跟他們交涉嗎這部分有沒有雖然說到後來我們在113年8月份的時候呢他的這個發價書是55億美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2605.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2611.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
可是這前前後後都是幾十億的落差請問這部分我們當初接到這個115億的這個這個公告的時候我們沒有任何反應說怎麼會差這麼多跟委員報告有的我們在這個原來取得的初估報價就像剛剛委員所講的是60億餘顏那後來這個美國安和局在6月19號進行智慧國會的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2634.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2659.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
變成高達115億元,我們就向美方要求說明價差的這個原因。當初原因是什麼?因為我在這個報數裡面沒看到。那美方是表示說這個價格是綜合計算各項支出的一個最高的一個價格,仍有一個下調的空間,但是我們在編預算的時候為了避免就是說如果簽約軍不足跟為了要預認後續預算的需求,我們就 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2660.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2685.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
先啟動了這個整規書的修訂程序來上講我想請教就是美方的說法您是說他是怎麼樣他是說這是因為美方的說法是為什麼那時候會有這麼大的這個差異因為我們還是有去選他因為他他是綜合的這個計算各項支出綜合的計算這個站櫃師或者是來在請報告委員站櫃市市長黃啟在這邊向委員做個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2688.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2698.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們在建案的時候所獲得的出估報價基本上是只有廠商針對生產成本所提出的估價生產成本在智慧國會前 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2699.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2719.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
安和局他會針對這個案子所有的相關的成本包含通膨計價未來的各項變動因素專案管理費等等多項的這個計算價格之後去做一個最高的估價值因為美方針對軍購的部分一向是採取這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2721.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2748.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
不賺不賠不討價還價的這個原則所以他一定會把這個價格拉到最高那這個部分我們也在後續的時候向美方瞭解說因廠商出估報價的時候是不是有高估的狀況或是有其他的因素那當然美方並沒有針對這個做說明大家外界可能說剛發生雷神案所以大家會聯想會不會是說這些公司可能向美國政府有高個報價 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2750.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2751.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
同步也跟美方就爭取跟現在就是要跟其他國 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2766.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2782.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
也要採購的是國家來爭取說美方跟他其他國家共同預約那這樣希望就能夠因為他會有一個研發的一個價格尤其RTS600他是新的所以他會放入研發的這個價格那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2782.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2782.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2800.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2810.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
在九月份完成簽約前的時候,然後美方在八月的時候向我們提交一個正式的發價數的時候,那個時候金額已經降到了五十五億因為它這個差價太大了,幾十億,因為當初我們這個會編列六十多億的這個預算其實也是來自於美方的出戶報價,也是來自於美方 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2822.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2822.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
一而一之 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2855.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2880.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個過去智慧國會價格高出我們原本預框預算的這個情況還不少那其中在之前最有名的一個例子是M1A2戰車的例子他當初我們編列的預算是405億智慧國會價格是600億那其他幾個案子也有類似的這個狀況但是在後面經過跟美方充分協調之後我們都在合理的範圍之內把價格給攤下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2883.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2909.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好,那再來的話,再來我想請教就是說像這次我們這個獵鴞專案裡面我們是購入了685套的彈簧刀300跟291套的ALTIS 600M嘛對不對那之前我有看到一些報導大家就對這個彈簧刀300其實有很多的疑慮他說因為它這個重量是很輕嘛我看到之前你們所提供的這個資料我看到就是說彈簧刀300因為它重量很輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2911.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2938.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那它是以供給低防護高價值的目標為主那之前有人講說阿為什麼要買這個台灣刀300阿價格也不便宜阿那為什麼不用這個商用的這個無人機裝上小型炸彈它當作自殺機就其實就可以了而且經濟實惠是這樣子嗎這部分要說明一下嗎到底台灣刀300跟商用的這個無人機差別在哪裡我想分幾點跟委員報告第一點就是說我們現在買的台灣刀300是Block兩棟應該是比原來的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2941.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2941.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
本來就是計劃當中的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2967.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2967.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
致少應該還要再增購 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2989.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3005.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
事實上要簽假以上那在這一次的話我們能夠多少的話我們再跟美方再來再來洽談看看那看看每一家現在是多少那在大院如果允許的範圍之內我們再跟美方就這個談到600的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3006.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3036.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
﹚議員﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3036.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3036.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
羅銘霖委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3065.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3086.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
來 各位請回 接下來進行詢答委員是陳永康委員主席 有請部長來 部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3094.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3096.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
軍售案對我們國家來講是非常重要的作業流程,也代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3110.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3128.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
美國對我們的防衛能力的支持但是在這個作業的過程中間我相信台美雙方這個作業流程的協調是非常重要的我特別這邊給大家報告一個真正的作業流程我們的報價包括初估報價就是ROM價錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3130.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3154.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
廠商提供的一些,包括原廠,再加上美國作業流程,這裏面就是知會國會的金額,為什麽跟這次產生的差額,最後到了發價書,簽LOA,又掉了60億下來,所以這個案子的最後,包括實際執行金額,修正發價書,這都可以中間有條件的調節,這個看我們對案子的深入瞭解。 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3156.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3164.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
軍售價格結構包括各種行政作業費、行政管理費、契約管理費、包裝處理費、運輸費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3167.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3193.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
研發補償這就是剛才部長講的如果一個新的案子出來了參與國家這個non-recurring的這個錢就會降低那麼過去曾經有案子就是重複把這個沉入成本研發費美國加在裡面其實你攤負攤過幾次可以談的時候這個做準備那這次看各位這個流程最主要就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3195.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3210.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
通知國會的價錢提高了但是又回到DSA那又再經過軍種再回到我們這邊來談的時候價錢就降低了我認為這個一方面美方的內部要做檢討那另外就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3211.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3236.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
PMR專案管理會議時﹖我們可以跟美國的DSA提出這個東西﹖請他要改進﹖我們相信美方的作業流程﹖但中間有的時候還會一些犯錯﹖就是說疏忽了﹖所以這個價錢有落差﹖那麼你看這次的過程中間﹖我們的價錢從前面拿到LOR﹖開始ROM價錢﹖到簽署發價書﹖雖然經過了一個大loop回到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3237.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3258.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
DSEA以後價錢又減下來了但我們編列綠綫理論上我們支持防衛作戰要善用這個經費在檢討過程中間我們提出下面的建議你看看這個過程美方公告是115這是通知國會但是從國會同意了又回到DSEA就剩55了 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3260.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3287.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那麼我們現在目前是建議維持編列115但是彈簧刀剛剛講了原先的300型的那個現在用比較新的形式了那價錢跟原先有落差那現在新增600了那麼這個數量的價錢我認為是在這個專案裡面是可以做討論溝通所以你採購的數量並不是等於差價除以它的單價因為它的整個管理經費跟作業流又不一樣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3288.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3310.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
發價書是要修正的,預算我們在角度上是支持,但最後還考慮一個,我們現在看到的這個結果是因為報給國會的價錢過高,但是同意以後DSA到軍種再回過來的差,那現在有一點點好像是倒果為因,我們未來看看作虛文件要有備案。 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3311.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3327.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
。﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3329.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3354.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
彈簧刀300會不會未來變成消失性商源希望美方要釐定確保我們買的這個第二型的300型能夠有效使用軍購報價完成精算後再正式編列我們這一次我們是支持這個錢有效的運用但是我們希望在後續專案裡面的管理上面尤其是跟DSA的確認因為剛才那個流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3357.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3384.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
還要去會軍種 再審查 最後到國會國會又回到DSA 再回到軍種這個專案因為是美國海軍陸戰隊所以回到海軍 再回到我們這邊這個作業的loop裡面 我希望我們的同仁在不只是採購室 戰規室 包括軍種使用這個最重要的部分我提醒部長 這個部分我們大家要精進 要努力部長您有什麼回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3384.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3404.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
是,我想就這個部分當然因為他自衛國會的金額跟原來發價書後面的這個金額確實差距過大那所以我想在當時我們就已經這個要求美方要說明這個價差的這個原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3405.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3423.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
那所以剛剛委員也指導了應該我們要分項分項去要求做一個詳細的說明那我想這個部分最後當然有大幅的一個降低那顯示這個當時美國在這個做智慧國會的這個金額的時候呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3423.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3448.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
以後我們應該也會希望他在智慧國會的金額這一塊能夠做一個精進不然的話這個確實會引起一些質疑我想我們會再跟美方就這個智慧國會的金額這個部分應該要在智慧國會之前就應該要做一個相當的精算這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3450.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3476.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
另外就是我們希望戰會室跟國防採購室在這個迴路的環節過程中間要協助軍種那麼尤其是配合美國的駐美軍事代表團的軍售小組在這個裡面過程中間如果有任何的這個產生的數量上或是價錢上的誤差及時回饋讓我們這邊有一個育嬰的時間師長您這邊是不是可以做一個普通說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3476.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3497.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
報告委員,就是陳儒委員剛剛所指導,事實上這個案子從一開始執行一直到智慧國會發電價差過大,站規師都是全程參與,同時也協助軍種。那後續我們還是會繼續協助軍種在接裝以及後續的申購規劃上面去做一個最完善的安排。 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3498.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3520.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
另外就是這個在採購這個裝備另外就是包括人員訓練這個再次在細項裡面的準則教範我們希望料配件能夠先獲得準則教範能夠提早中文化合格的訓練人員及早回來這樣子裝備到的時候就是戰力可以發揮參謀長您這邊做一下說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3524.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3546.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
報告委員：如您的指導：有關於不管是赴美訓練：或是在台協訓：還有相關的這個準則紀念的獲得：在這個：也就是現在在跟：美方簽約的時候：這都是我們在依據：原例以往軍售案：軍購案裡面的這個經驗：我們正在管辦的：那也謝謝委員的指教好 謝謝 謝謝各位 部長 謝謝你 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3555.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3558.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
謝謝陳永康委員 有請王定宇召委謝謝主席 麻煩顧部長跟陸軍參謀長顧部長 參謀長是 王委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3579.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3606.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我們這個專案是軍售案還是商售案?軍售案嘛因為我看了一下你的報告原始報價是向國會報了初步報價後來確認要買的數量了之後呢軍總跟美國的國防部去核實溢價的時候它價格降下來但這個差別的比例相當高差了將近百分之四十幾 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3607.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3635.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以我們一般在軍售案裡面從發價合價到audit到集合都是美國軍方負責但目前為止之前的愛國者案雷神案跟這個案子其實都是所謂的軍售案那我們如果採商售因為我們國人必須了解就是軍售跟商售都是我們向美方採購軍事裝備的方法之一那商售的話部長合價啦巡價啦議價大概是我方要負責嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3636.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3636.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我為什麼要提這一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3661.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3688.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
就算是軍售案當然我們對美方有一定的信任程度他們的集合人員編制也比我們大太多但是一件兩件三件這樣的情形下我們面對軍售案的時候事實上我們是把買方對於價格的核定跟事後的集合我們要不要引入類似我們在商售該做的功課也就是不知道講多少就多少否則這一次他降了那為什麼沒降呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3689.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3714.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我們就變多花了40多%的價格去買了一樣的裝備你懂我意思嗎這一次當然美方誠實的去積合核實價格表示這個機制還是有效但我們不能永遠都靠他方有效有些東西還掌握在我方嘛我們部長對這一個軍售案商售案的話大概就是我們自己要負責的啦我們自己要各方來源去比較那在軍售案美國軍方第一次初步向國會報價 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3716.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3740.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
國會合可之後我們真的要買的數量的時候他們的國防部以及軍總會提出來這時候價格就會接近買價所以我第一個建議是說我們部裡面要不要思考或是站規師這裡我們對美方的軍售案有關這些價格的我們至少要去監控它 要去審核它我不知道部長有沒有什麼想法我想是不是先請站規師 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3742.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3770.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
報告委員在我們過去的部分針對軍購的價格當然都是以美方的P&A也就是報價書或是出戶報價為主但是經過這幾年下來幾個比較重大的軍售案尤其是雷神案跟這一次的案子我們也已經跟美方達成共識就是針對未來重要軍售案裡面我們會提前做一個價格的預審去了解到目前一般的價格是多少去精進它價格的實務 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3772.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3801.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
商售你們都會去做這些功課啦那我們駐美的美團也有一定的能量去做這些事情我現在發現反而我們相信的軍售案常常會有價格偏高的狀況這個部分我們因為這個軍購案動輒都幾十億的差額這個影響的預算數很大我們希望國防部這邊要謹慎去處理就是說這個裡面都是民脂民膏我們希望用在對的地方第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3802.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3826.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
那現在有差價了嘛我到底是把這個金額繳回或者要增加購置使用單位也就陸軍這邊你要有一個數量的依據我到底有多少戰力因為這現在有多少人要用我要訓練多少人我不是說現在錢多出來了我就多買個500套吧500套有500套的人啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3827.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3846.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
戰力的分佈他在哪裡所以我剛才在報告裡面還沒有很清楚看到就是說我們現在國會面對有兩個選擇嘛今天你們這個報告案要嘛就是來請你們就照原數額買因為原數額是經過戰力評估相關的評估然後去購買的那多餘的價格那我們就繳回庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3848.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3870.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
另外一種信息是既然我們有這樣的預算在那裡了你們有沒有什麼樣的戰力評估告訴我們說我們原來就是錢不夠所以才買了一半後面要增加買這個要很科學的告訴我們而不是多多益善部長這邊請回答跟委員報告第一個據我了解我們本來的這個案本來就不是只有要買這樣子的一個數量我們只是依照這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3871.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3887.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
國家財政的預渡我們先購買這樣的一個量那第一點第二點就是說我們現在是根據相關還要再進行這個所謂的模式模擬我們會對於整個作戰防衛的這個構想所需要的這個因為你們今天這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3890.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3906.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
陳永康將軍是有經驗的人了你應該原來我評估要買一千枚我因為國家財政我現在買三百枚現在價格打六折了那我可以把原來一千枚要達標的我可以增加這個也許可以說服委員這一塊我們今天沒有看到啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3906.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3920.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
我們這個部分會後再我們提供一個那個詳細的因為現在我們本席我們今天報告案完這個預算的處理那我請部長思考看看是不是等你們有這個詳細的說明後是 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3923.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3950.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
預算的部分我們再來處理就是說我們可以一次處理但是如果說明不清楚容易早因為我原來可能要買這麼多第一階段買多少這介紹戰力的規劃也許是機密可是要讓國防委員知道那現在呢因為價格壓低了我要增加數量是在原規劃裡面那個規劃是什麼那個戰力規劃是什麼我們才能做到底要不要讓你買的依據所以我看部長我們今天如果部長同意的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3951.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3968.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
這個部分我們是不是今天把報告完但是後續這個預算是繳回還是徵購是不是請國防部這個所屬單位向各委員來做充分的說明否則今天處理的話我認為判斷的依據我沒辦法有科學的依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3970.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3994.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
報告委員 謝委員給予這個機會讓我在這邊說明事實上這個也如委員剛剛的指導我們並不是因為有這樣子與預算上面編列的差價有60億要去把它買足買齊而是事實上我們本來就依據整個防衛專案的需求也完成了各式的武器部隊的編裝乃至於無人機運用的整體規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3995.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4012.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那其中也包含到配附和變裝的調修這都是整體的規劃那個參謀長這一塊因為我時間的關係我覺得應該要更說明更清楚因為你原來過來買這些搞不好明年你是要買中科變自己研製的類似彈簧刀的東西嗎因為我們已經有看到那個東西了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4015.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4042.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
這筆錢多出來了是好事總比不夠好但多出來怎麼用可能要一個充分的說明我們再來處理可能會比較精準對 這一點可能要因為涉及到一些我們相關的這個評估的細項我們的編裝各方面是軍事機密啦我不會在這邊請你回答我建議跟我們各國防委員說明清楚大家可以理解怎麼處理才是對我們使用單位就是軍種最有效的辦法那我們今天就先把報告案報告完然後你們再把相關資料跟大家說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4043.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4043.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
這題我想問很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4060.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4076.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
我認為我們現在邊線比有三個並爭,我很快速的講一下第一個,我們根據國軍近五年的軍官士官士兵的邊線比呢,其實平均值都往,尤其士官跟士兵都降到八成以下 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4077.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4077.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
2.志願役士兵 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4092.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4118.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
擔任基層非常重要幹部就是軍校生我們軍校生你看我整理了第三張表軍校生從2020年到2024年任官未滿服役年限提前退伍人數從400一直增加到1037這些人可能都排長這些人可能是裝甲部隊的車長等等就這樣子大量基層幹部大量的提早離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4120.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4137.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
主戰部隊的志願役士兵每4個有1個離開然後邊線比都幾乎發生在主戰部隊戰車、炮兵等等他的邊線比都低於8成以下這3個問題我不知道國防部現在有沒有什麼解決方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4138.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4167.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
有,現在正在擬議中的就是軍校生的部分我們會做一個適度的擬議中是適度的調升那另外就是這一個有關這個提高待遇的這個部分我們會針對相關的這個邊線比比較低的還有一些專業的部分我建議說除了薪資報酬以外應該還有其他的就是就業環境的因素可能一定要考量第二個我要提醒國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4169.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4180.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
不能為了增加這個邊線筆比如我看最近有說要放寬不適服的回來我不是反對我的意思是說體能品德能力這三個不能打折 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4182.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4183.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
跟委員報告,我們不釋服的只限於那一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4200.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4204.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
有些不能打折,有些是因為家庭就這個孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4217.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4218.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
謝謝王帝 莊委 有請徐巧欣委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4262.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4263.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
謝謝主席,我們請郭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4267.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4296.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
首先我要先講一下主席剛才一開始在最一開始開會的時候有講到說如果今天報告確認後可行信預算是可以直接認可的但我們在建案的時候包含價格採購數量不一還有剛才的幾位我們的委員都有針對國防部裡面去提出很多的疑慮所以我個人是認為這個專案管理的價格既然有問題應該要重新建案先表達我個人的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4297.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4316.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
那首先要問的一個問題是顧部長您知道在113年中央政府的總預算計負主單位預算案半年的查核報告裡面呢我們的這個執行率我們的上半年度的執行率未達90%的有幾項嗎我想這個部分是不是請主計局來說明一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4323.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4323.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4346.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4373.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
今年預算執行率沒有達到90%﹖有占比49項﹖占了21%﹖也等於說以上半年來說﹖我們去年跟立法院要了錢﹖但是卻有一半的項目執行的不確實﹖也就是說預算如果通過了﹖那就沒有辦法接受監督﹖你的不斷落後的情況﹖這也會影響到我們今年在審查預算的時候我們的想法﹖這一點大家必須要了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4374.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4377.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
再來就是我們今天討論這個獵鴞專案的部分我想第一個問題是今天差了60億的差價這個前因後果剛剛大家都講過我不再重提首先外界會先去質疑的是是不是因為雷神案的問題才重新去檢查這整個價格不然怎麼會你從我們113年的時候編了60億 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4399.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4409.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
那今年6月公告是115億那我們呢也同意了普遍列55億的情況之下又減到這個減到55億等於說少了60億這個情形當然會讓大家覺得說那是不是從頭到尾根本就是60億台幣可以買到的東西那只是美國國會公告之後我們沒有去向美方針對這個專案管理去好好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4423.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4427.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我們在114年補編列的預算專案管理上面我方是否有評估獵鴞專案的單價是否合理我方 不是美方 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4439.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4455.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
跟委員報告第一點就是您剛問的那個國防的整體預算執行率到10月底只會到91.4那軍事投資的部分會到92.5那預判到年底會打94.8那我們當然還是會持續來檢討這個執行的情況那有關於這個獵鴞專案的這個部分我們當時在這個知會國會的價格在提出115億的時候我們確實是有疑問的你們有疑問對但是我們因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4467.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4489.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我們為了不讓這個因為這個因為他自衛國會的金額已經到達這個金額那我們如果不先奉行政院核定用115億的這樣子的一個價格來編那萬一預算不足的話這個建案就會構成所以啊我了解你的意思所以如果說我們自己都覺得有疑慮但我們沒有辦法去跟對方溝通而是照單全收 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4489.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4490.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這件事情是讓大家覺得不能接受的地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4505.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4531.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
剛剛已經跟委員報告就是我們事實上在他智慧國會之後我們就持續的跟美方下商要求美方具體的說明價差的一個原因那我們降了60億之後呢那基本上就省下了這60億之後那為什麼我們不是直接把這個錢那我們之後我們另外建案去買其他的東西而是要直接在這個預算裡面就直接往後加呢因為如果你這樣做的話我們預算審查還有什麼意義呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4533.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4546.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
而且無人機的更新速度是非常快的一到兩年說不定到時候有新的機型更符合台灣的戰略想定那省上來的錢也可以繼續買別的啊那為什麼一定非得要把它拿去繼續去增購這個我就不細講啦這個怕涉及國防機密就直接再去增購這個相關的武器呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4556.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4569.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我想RTS-600它事實上就是一個最新型的無人機它的制工時間是相當久那對於這個裝甲型的這個武器的反制是相當的高這個我了解你們都報告過我們現在對這一款攻擊型的無人機我們認為我們現在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4575.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4581.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
有這樣的一個需求只希望大院能夠支持你們有需求你們也當時報了單價也報了數量那國會這邊也給了支持那所以說你們既然當時報的數量是這樣子的價格是這樣子的那你們突然現在又多又等於說又要繼續多買那應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4596.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4620.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我的看法就是我覺得呢你們只要重新建案的話我們百分之百會支持沒有人要說我們台灣不用無人機只是現在目前的這個方式我們很難接受那再來我要特別來問的是說我們在潛艦國造第一艘原型號目前的進度那正在進行博港測試目前缺失改善的情形跟何時在博港測試什麼時候會全部完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4622.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4641.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
海軍參謀長,補充一下目前我們一個測試的進度大概83%到85%你說HAT的部分?對,HAT那海上測試什麼時候會開始執行?4月1號會執行所以我們目前博港測試的改善缺失情況還剩幾項? |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4645.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4652.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那你要怎麼確定明年4月的時候SAT會開始執行?就是判斷而已嗎?那節點的管制如果說那又有延宕的話那你確定在4月的時候可以開始進行海上測試嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4667.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4684.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
目前都是正常目前是正常的,但是你如果說4月的時候沒有開始進行海上測試的話會往後延宕,這是有可能發生的情況對吧目前看不到會有這個發生,目前還在好,那你ASAT海上測試之後,你們預計要花多少時間預計是從4月1號到9月30號之間完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4688.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4715.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
所以你們在什麼時候會交鑒?交鑒在11月交鑒在11月嗎?那如果你們交鑒這個有沒有延期的可能性?還是你現在告訴我11月絕對交鑒不會延到明年?目前還在預讀內目前這個對我要問的不是目前嘛我問的是你們現在評估是說你要現在跟我保證說今年一定會交鑒哪怕是12月不會延到明年? |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4716.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4732.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
報告委員就目前的一個現況是可以明年11月份就好那因為是這樣子我們現在在討論這個潛艦的預算裡面呢2016年開始潛艦國造第一第二階段裡面一艘就做了8年那我們對外也都沒有公開說明我們原型艦的各項測試結果跟細節 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4735.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4760.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
現在要一次編列預算到127年而且這7艘的後續艦都沒有進行包含武器採購跟相關附屬設備的規劃內容跟數量那我們在立法院就很難去審查這個預算的合理性跟妥適性明年只會用到這個初期簽約甚至不需要20億這麼多為什麼要多編這麼多預算主席我把它講完他們簡單的一次答覆那所以說呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4761.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4777.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
我可以接受你們今年先編兩艘或三艘的潛艦艦案但是在一艘都還沒有完全做完之前就直接編七艘今年才114年你們要直接在第一艘還沒有做好的情況編到127年等於是十幾年的預算我現在35歲你做好我也要50歲啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4783.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4800.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
那個七三段好你們都現場的各位都不知道幾歲啦所以呢像這樣子我們看獵鴞專案都知道了有任何異狀的時候多編出來的預算如果就可以拿去做別的事情這樣的預算完全不合理再加上審計部目前對於國防部的上半年的這個核實的報告也認為是有進度落後效率不彰的問題所以我的具體建議是呢我們可以分階段來建案 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4810.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4838 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
如果分階段建案的話我個人會完全支持但如果說你要一次性的編127年從現在開始一次性的編7艘那我覺得呢到時候萬一在比如說125年的時候出了任何的問題那我們現在來編列預算這些委員我們很難跟全民交代所以是否可以請部長考慮一下我們在編列預算上面的合理性做一些調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4838.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4839.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
但你做到一半的時候我很難給你叫停啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4866.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4879.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
您也同意後續見所以我們也看原型件做的結果怎麼樣那我們一定會來分年來編列一個確實的預算然後送大院來審議相關預算的確診 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4881.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4898.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
再一次建議我們兩艘三艘兩艘或三艘兩艘兩艘的方式來編這樣會比較合理我們也比較好審查我們也能夠來支持但是這樣子127年一次編了十幾年的方式那我們在預算審查上面會有難度謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4900.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4901.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4918.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4918.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
麻煩請副部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4950.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4956.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
聖發委員部長早部長今天我們討論的是獵鴞的這個案子本期在這裡基於以下幾點原因我們反對他繼續使用就是說他應該要重新建案剛剛我聽到有委員或者國防部在回應的時候你們都只提到我們美國的安和局 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4975.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4983.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
通知國會的這個部分是一百一十五億然後接下來我們在發價數是五十五億可是你們少說了另外在更早之前我們對於美方提出的那個巡駕的時候其實他們報的大概就是五六十億六十幾這一點我們沒有隱瞞在當時在 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5001.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5005.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
在112年簽署﹚部長沒關係你有講沒關係我們現在就是說我們當時在跟美方詢問的時候一定有提出我們的需求數量然後美方依據我們的提出的條件所以他報價是這樣那在6月份今年6月份他安和局跟國會告知的金額還有公告的部分是115億可是最後在8月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5031.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5034.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們其實就已經知道是55億這部分為什麼我們建議要重新建案第一如果急需我們所有都急需現在有哪一個軍種可以說你們現在要的武器都夠了嗎然後你還有什麼其實是還沒有買到的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5049.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5055.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
如果這個是這麼需要其實你用戰備急需還是可以啊你過去魚叉就是這樣做的啊所以他不會去受到影響可是我們在這裡要提出來他為什麼有幾個應該要注意的第一個就是預算紀律就是財政紀律今天你如果只要花這麼多錢然後你超出這麼多超出一半以上欸你有60億的金額那你居然要繼續這樣用那以後你的報告就好了啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5078.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5093.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
我們過去可能有這樣的狀況很少可是這個是財政紀律的一個部分所以就這個部分我們希望在因為我們8月就已經知道了對不對就已經收到發價書8月就知道為什麼你們9月還跟AIT簽約 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5101.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5102.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
報告員 相貴司司長這邊向您報告我們簽約的是我們目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5114.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5120.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
大院已經核定了數量所以就是55億吧55億嘛 對不對可是你們提供的那個跟AIT簽的是100多億喔你們自己再去再看看看清楚8月你們就已經收到這個正式的發價書可是你卻9月還這樣簽這個才是真正的養套殺你把那個天價定出來然後再降價 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5140.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5147.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
然後再用剩餘的不要重新建案要把它買足這是第一個我們認為財政紀律有嚴重瑕疵的地方第二個 報告委員這個可能有點誤解美方提出的是9月的時候簽約可以和其他採購方共同預約並不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5160.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5162.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
你只要買午餐你會把明天的早餐午餐晚餐全部一起寫上去嗎?類似這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5186.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5193.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
今天沒有很多時間所以他給我們的只有55億多的發價書他並沒有給我們115億的發價書我知道發價書不可能跟他簽115億的發價書我們再給你看如果有怎麼辦你在9月跟AIT簽的約就是100多億另外時間的關係第二個就是說像Artis600的這個無人機其實我們從因為陸軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5214.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5219.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
的說明是說111年4月就開始接近二無戰爭他的作戰需求根據外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年也就是因為你們說111年你們就就是2022年你們就已經接近二無戰爭可是外媒報導烏克蘭是在2023年的4月才收到這一批 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5239.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5239.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5264.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5264.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
美國軍隊也有採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5291.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5311.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
因為就我們看到的資料：近期的文章他有發表美國陸軍測試而且證明了Artis-600它能夠作為網絡風群進行大量操作這是文章說的然後Artis-600無人機它之前也展示過空中發射重點是沒有採用美國的陸軍沒有採用 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5315.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5320.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
所以在這個部分因為像Artis600它是新創公司過去大家看到的它很多都是用動畫影像來呈現我剛剛講的它只有在2023年5月份的時候兩架這個直升機這個無人機去攻莫斯科兩架都被打下來所以我們到底有沒有這樣的需求或者它還有沒有什麼樣的缺失我們不知道美國的陸軍並沒有採用就我們得到的訊息 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5344.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5368.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
另外還有就是我們在整個無人機的市場現在全球都非常關注的情況之下其實它的進步是非常快不管你是攻擊還是你在反制它都是不斷不斷的演進結果你一次要買這麼多而且就我剛剛說的缺失我等一下還可以把它其他的問題把它列出來因為剛剛你們說它的飛行續航力多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5373.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5396.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
105分鐘105分鐘可是安和局它公告的給我們的上限是600M喔它的時間是4小時喔你當初給我們的資料是它的飛行時間4小時喔那個是徵收型的我們現在買的是供給型的不是它有M4小時然後它如果我們買的所以我們懷疑你是降規買啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5398.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5402.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
你原來因為像報章雜誌其實他講的都是600M然後安和局要給我們的他當然是給你可以買到M的可是我們卻買600所以這個部分包括他的滯空啦他的你彈尿醜仔啦或者其他的續航力是不是有問題是不是有符合我們的需求我想這個都是要必須要說清楚的所以今天如果在這些因為還包括你買的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5425.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5430.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
現在如果60億還要再買一樣的機型你會買兩倍以上的數量我們以後要放在哪裡而且它不斷的進步我們像台灣這麼潮濕過去F16還有我們的艦體其實都有鏽蝕的狀況像這個你要放在哪裡又要蓋嗎又要蓋東西來放嗎所以就這幾個原因我們不認為我們現在要急著要花這麼多的錢繼續去 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5452.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5452.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
委員會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5467.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5484.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
方委員容我三句話簡短的向您報告第一個重啟建案它如果按照整個建案程序這類似或是該型的裝備最快的獲得恐怕要到民國119到120年才會獲得這是第一點報告第二個對於類似Artis 600這樣子的屬於序號彈它是屬於一種彈藥那我們國軍現行的序號彈藥的庫房是足夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5494.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5494.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
參謀長顯然你沒有聽清楚我前面講的三點 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5513.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5529.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
第一預算,第二它是不是符合我們的需求,不是你有地方放就好了,之前給我們已經發霉或過期的你也有地方放嗎?第三個,我救他回答的啦,還有他是不是先進的,我們到底要不要買這麼多的數量,他到底多少錢你也沒有告訴我們,這數量會多少也不知道,所以把它弄清楚,該繳回就繳回 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5539.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5540.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
你好,我們請部長來,部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5576.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5592.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
陳委員好部長好部長今天的專案報告是討論我們的獵鴞專案那獵鴞專案其實在上禮拜也有國防部的官員一起來跟我們來說明執行規劃那整個整體的規劃編列預算我們最開始是60億 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5594.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5613.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
60億元吧那後來114年那美國國會他是說到115億剛才我聽幾位委員在討論的時候我有聽到是戰規師的師長有提到說這個必須要考量吼包含通膨還有等等的因素在裡面可是從61到115億 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5615.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5640.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
通膨是百分之百嗎?我上次看CPI也沒有那麼高可不可以稍微解釋一下當你們看到這115億你們的心態是怎麼樣?覺得說怎麼會有這麼龐大的預算?報告委員那個他的項目當然不是只有通膨而已他剛剛陳永康委員他大概有列了一個表大概有八大類但是他的項目非常的龐雜美方大概也不會跟我們詳細的去公佈這些項目 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5642.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5669.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
但是我們依據過去執行軍售案的相關的案例當我們發現軍售案跟出估報價的價格價差超過20%以上我們就會視為不合理一定會跟美方來進行洽談瞭解實際上價格超抑的原因那這一次也是採取同樣的模式那最後美方也透過共同意約的模式來協助我們把這個價格有效來降價 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5671.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5693.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
有效來降下來對我剛才聽到這樣我們真的非常滿意有效降到55億可是我現在又有一個疑問那為什麼你們當初就直接編列115億元比如說你這對數量你是同樣的數量可是你還是編列115億元可不可以再說明一下報告委員當初我們還沒有在55億我們沒有得到這個最後裝備發價出是55億的時候你就直接變115億 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5699.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5707.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我們不會這樣子編列因為美方給我們的初估報價只有60餘億所以我們也依據這個報價來編列預算那後續再試美方實際發價書的價格來進行後續的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5715.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5735.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我要講這件事情的原因是因為我們必須要有一個更加穩定的機制我們談了那麼久剛剛幾位委員都有在講這個幅度之大那我們必須不能是一個空牌的授權書也就是說我們的預算的這個紀律還有這個直接你不能夠說你這個像他來跟我說明資料的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5735.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5747.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我們看這個上面執行概況專案內容我們都會誤以為說這個115億元的意思代表說美方會當初115億幫我們編列的時候是我們裝備的數量是直接double |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5748.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5777.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
所以我們必須要很清楚的知道說我們編列的預算跟我們的這個我們要多少的量能量能跟預算必須要成正比的那如果說他們說多少我們就編多少那等於是完全沒有這個談判的籌碼沒有談判的機制剛才川普剛剛委員對我剛好看到你們講的這裡面有各個大項每一個項目都很清楚但是還是要在這個希望國防部能夠仔細思考一下我們是要怎麼樣去跟人家未來要怎麼樣談判未來的川普總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5778.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5800.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
他們的政權 他們的談判的能力 如果說我們照單全收的話我是希望照單全收的是量 不是說他的金額金額是固定 結果我們量反而是二分之一我們不希望是這樣子 我們當然知道有他作戰的需求 作戰的裝備國防在預算我們會都支持 但是必須要 你要考量一下說怎麼這種浮動變化之大所以今天為什麼會有這個專案報告 這麼多委員在討論也是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5803.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5803.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
委員會議長 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5823.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5832.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
依照這個作戰的場域,我上次聽到我們這個國防部的官員來我們辦公室提到的時候,他說是依照對方的裝備,所以我們在採購,我們採購的裝備是要因應對方的裝備,反他們的裝備嘛,所以現在看起來900多套的這個裝備還是遠遠不足的,我們是不是可以這樣子說? |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5843.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5852.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
報告委員沒有錯目前我們在光是反甲型的需求依照我們的需要是要上千套以上上千套以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5853.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5878.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
那如果這是編列總共900多套還夠嗎?900多這包含685套是人員殺傷所以291套是反甲型的291是初次採購的那我跟委員報告的是說面對共軍的各式登陸的可能的戰甲車輛我們需求要上千套以上上千套所以我們大概還有短缺大概六七百套左右因應他們的裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5879.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5896.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們自己足夠有沒有自己的自制能力?因為剛才有提到說有複數的來源來比價,那包含本身的自產的能力也是未來可以作為談判的一個籌碼嗎?我們當然現在正在進行相關的努力反甲型的無人機,我們我國 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5902.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5917.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
中科院的評價有機會有自治的能力嗎現在中科院我想比較著重的是先是人員殺傷型的部分那防專家型的部分可能還要後續現在還沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5923.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5938.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
一定的這個成果出來那所以我們在督促這個中科院再來根據這個人員殺傷型的這個部分然後再來進一步發展這個反裝甲型的那我想我們都會用外購跟自治這個兩種的這個部分來進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5942.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5942.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5955.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5956.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
明年編列二十一關於潛艦的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5978.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6003.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那其實這幾天有很多的媒體都有談到說我們在野黨可能要針對明年編列的部分來去動檢刪那特別是有些是全面刪除有些是保留大概剩下兩億元那保留兩億元的部分他們是認為說這個是能夠某種程度是前期簽約他還是可以完成那也不會影響到整個檢建國造的歷程 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6004.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6005.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
主要是因為臺船現在如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6024.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6045.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我們現在在海上測試我已經一再的承諾就是海測通過之後我們才會動用這個錢但在這個之前呢我想我們還是要讓這個台船他要先行這個去備料然後跟這些預約等等然後後續的這些可能的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6047.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6049.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
主要是這樣子不好意思內閣部長所以如果說他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6072.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6100.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
保留到剩下只剩2億這樣是足夠我們後來的我們當然是希望最好的方法就是說我們在海鮮通過之前我們不動資任何一毛錢那在海鮮通過之後我們看看海船他這個部分他已經需要動資了多少錢那我們就按照他這個他已經動資了這個多少錢的這個數字我們補給這個這個台船讓他的金流能夠順遂這樣子好 謝謝 謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6106.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6109.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
接下來進行詢答委員是黃仁委員謝謝主席在詢問這個顧部長之前我對主席剛剛所發言的這個部分所以針對這個口頭宣告的今天獵鴞專案的經國防部的報告之後及認可專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6136.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6136.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
是,部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6160.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6173.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
關於我們的這個獵鴞專案,我們有兩個兩種的無人機的一個飛彈的系統,分別為人員殺傷型彈簧刀及仿專甲的600 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6179.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6192.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
經過很多的測試,在烏克蘭認為這個彈簧刀它的效能沒有那麼好,所以會影響到我們行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6198.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6219.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
行飛彈的一型跟二型未來的一個發展所以這個部分來講的話你說有沒有必要來採購這個彈簧刀300型的還有另外就是這個ADIS的600型的這個部分有沒有必要採購因為經過烏克蘭的實戰的經驗裡面來講的話評價並不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6226.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6246.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以如果嚴格來講我們的這個巡飛彈一型比彈簧刀還來得好而且價格上都差不多所以部長有沒有思考這個部分有沒有必要大量的採購這些這兩型的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6248.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6264.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我想就中科院所研製的巡迴彈一型的這個部分它是比較跟這個美制的300的性能比較相近那我們現在當然採購的是人員殺人性能度是台灣刀300的 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6265.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6294.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這個最新型的部分就是兩棟的部分那另外我們主要要徵購的部分是這一個ARTIS 600這個人員不是反裝甲型的這個無人攻擊機那所以我想就這個部分在我們這個島嶼防衛作戰上面來看的話我們認為ARTIS 600的這個部分在我們的這個防衛作戰構想上面是可以發揮相當大的作用 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6295.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6323.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
因為我為什麼提這個我們行飛彈一行雖然沒有實戰的經驗實戰但是他的在是在本土研發生產的他的測試在我們的戰場環境就整個我們本土的國家的這個地形地物所做出來的這樣的一個這樣的一個行飛彈一行所以實際上可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6324.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6346.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
更符合我們作戰的需求啊所以在採購的來講的話行飛彈一行這個評定的價格大概300萬那實際上跟彈滑刀的無人機裡面價格都差不多所以是不是可以考慮行飛彈一行的這個部分來講是不是可以針對這個來做進行採購跟研發 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6351.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6359.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我們都是雙軌並行的,也就是說外購的部分我們需要,那剛剛已經講過了,我們現在要徵購的並不是這個人員殺傷型的這個300,我們要徵購的是那個Artist 600,是 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6366.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6367.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
中科院的這個300的部分如果通過作案測評之後我們當然也可以再進行量產這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6385.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6400.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
好 在6月26號的時候就關心過美國出售彈簧刀300型 阿迪斯的650無人機你當時也回答說我們雙管 雙管定用 同步採購 那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6403.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6429.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
本席看了陸軍隊已經採購的300架的中科型飛彈一型外．國軍沒有再採購任何一架型飛彈一型．結果陸軍一口氣就向美國採購．大量的100枚無人機飛彈．還多編了60億準備後續採購．這就是看出當時本席擔心完全正確．而且你當時有講說是同步進行的來採購． |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6430.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6455.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以這個就是問題出在這個地方啊在6月28號的時候6月26號的時候我在這個地方特別質詢你所以你當時回答我是同步進行採購但是今天出了這個問題剛剛我所報告的部長所以你要重新的調整思考一下好不好那針對我們今天的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6457.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6460.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
多編了55億多編了115億這個問題從哪裡來而且他的這個發價發價書裡面就已經美國的發價書裡面已經很明確的是55億針對685架的人員殺傷型291架的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6479.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6508.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
防專家型的這個狀況很清楚的是55億為什麼編了115億那另外我特別要講的是第一個我們有沒有在計畫裡面有預算的精神法預算法的精神在計畫的時候一定有預算的精神那是不是有違反了預算書的精神另外就是我特別講的我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6512.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6529.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個計畫預算是跟著計畫走的那現在已經有採購的計畫了嗎還有想買多少量需要提需求書提了嗎每方提供的發價書有了嗎所以這個就是你為什麼編115億的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6533.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6558.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
而且今天美國發價書裡面就55億而已為什麼你就用這個來後續來編這個115億今天我講的是第一個採購計畫有了嗎第二想買多少數量有了嗎還有需求需求需求書提了嗎那這個就是你們今天的美方有沒有提出發價書115億的預算你要回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6563.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6590.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
委員好我是主席局局長就委員所提到第一個問題預算編列的一個程序是否符合相關的法規就預算法的規範我們國防部編列所有軍事投資建案不管是55億的需求115億需求我們都完成相關的建案程序也因為它超過10億元以上非疾病案子我們都報奉行政院核令之後奉行政院分配預算來編列相關的預算書表送進大院來審查就預算的編列程序是沒有問題以上跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6592.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6597.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
剛剛所有的議員都已經提出對115億的疑問,你算還是合法的嗎?請問一下,你現在回答我,請問一下,你有沒有採購的計畫?第二個,需要買多少量?第三,需求提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6615.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6643.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
西球書提了吧這個就是一個問題所在嘛你們還提那麼理由一大堆報告委員我們沒有提理由我們在這邊跟委員你們重新檢討啦我們這60億元都必須經過大院的同意才可以動之那如果大院不同意的話當然我們只能按照原本的預算狂烈來執行對嘛這樣回答不是就是一個問題給本席一個答案了嗎你還講什麼理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6649.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6671.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
好謝謝黃仁委員各位請回接下來進行詢答的委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在接下來進行詢答委員請王洪威委員詢答好謝謝主席我先請部長部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6678.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6692.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
所以我安慰部長我覺得剛才黃仁委員他質疑的確實很有道理如果今天我們購買武器那麼美方他的發價書是55億但是我們卻要編115億是不是代表我們的這些國防的採購 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6699.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6715.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
是要五毛給一塊呢所以這些相關的就是我們的預算的編列不是讓立法院給空白授權書啊那不然的話剛才講的就是說要看那個大院同不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6716.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6740.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那你總是要有個理由而不是要有空白授權書我覺得這點非常重要我們都知道我們建制國防加強防衛的重要性但是要五毛給一塊的事情我們不要做這個這個冤大頭好不好另外請教部長對不起時間暫停一下我再請我們的海軍海軍司令部參謀長 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6743.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6767.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
所以公委員報告這剛剛講的就是說當然因為是預算編制期整的關係他所以我們編那現在事實上只要55億所以對那你編了那60億怎麼辦要不要再動60億這個就是大院可以決定如果大院不同那你們也要可以提出來啊是不是預算就應該保留才對預算是不是該保留人家要55億我們編115億這60億欸60億是很大的錢欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6770.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6787.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
對,大院如果不同意的話,那大院就會把它刪減,那就結繳國庫,那大院如果同意我們增購的話,那我們就再增購你們是不是也應該辦保留預算啊?好,另外請教一下,我們在...報告委員,現在委員釐清,這個預算還沒有編,所以沒有保留的問題你們不是編在114年度嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6795.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6804.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
包委員我們預算是每年會編一次那目前我們編列的是114年的預算所以你們建議直接砍掉就是了所以現在你看到的60億你要買什麼啊你到底要買什麼人家說55億賣給你你要編115億欸天底下有這麼這麼冤大頭的事情嗎大院如果同意的話我們會把預算額度以外的錢購買反裝甲型然後你們再來增加對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6822.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6828.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這預算可以這樣子編法嗎?我時間有限,我要問一下就是有關於我們潛艦國造原型艦的問題那麼在預算書上,本來我們有關於第二艦代原型艦的籌建預算,114年度是編列25億 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6838.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6845.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
但是呢明年度的預算把這25億又把它拆成12345114到118年度請問一下為什麼114年度的預算又要把它分拆到到118年度請問我們的原型艦出現什麼樣的問題我們的預算為什麼要做這樣的更動 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6859.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6869.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
主要就是因為那個魚雷Mk.48的那個重型的魚雷的交互的這個騎乘而延後的關係而不是我們建造的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6870.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6897.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
所以是魚雷這一部分25億都是魚雷的部分嗎是的都是嗎5億是屬於船廠那其他的21屬於魚雷的那因為魚雷要分批的這個所以這樣可以這樣解讀嗎原來是應該114年度執行完畢的那現在因為魚雷交貨的延宕所以要延到118年度是這樣嗎是的他魚雷因為他因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6898.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6899.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
郭喜說海昆號的星象有一樣設備製造商不賣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6923.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6935.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
他直接說是德國,其實過去都沒有講是德國嘛,他這個有泄密之嫌他說呢,我們找,買不到心臟,所以現在有人來問我說,阿是不是呢,前件的這個心臟沒有了,我們換卡車的心臟,我說不會這麼離譜嗎所以請問一下部長,請問郭喜他所講的到底是假消息還是他泄密了 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6947.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6964.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
這很重要喔!最近大家都在傳喔!說我們那個心臟買不到喔!然後要換變成是卡車的心臟喔!請摘要回答我想第一個說明我想郭襲的這個部分呢並非屬實喔!那第二個呢所以他是假消息我們有關所有有關潛艦的裝備選用都採複試商員的評選所以來降低風險那關鍵的裝備商都是屬於受保護而不以對外公開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6972.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6988.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
他講的德國製造商是不是事實?他有沒有泄密?我只能夠簡要地回答他講的並不是事實。他如果有泄密的話要去辦他,對不對?你們去泄密,立法委員你們都去辦立法委員,都去告立法委員,如果郭喜有泄密的話為什麼不去告郭喜呢?部長,如果有泄密要不要告郭喜? |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6997.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7008.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
因為他講的這個內容在我看起來他沒有講得非常的清楚到底是講哪些什麼哪些的項目是什麼你這樣子是有顧左右而言他 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7009.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7010.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
提醒國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7032.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7050.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
去承認或否認在機密的項目上其實都是不能做的事情這個我們潛艦在國防委員會都是機密審查就去否認或承認都因為全世界會照潛艦都那幾家我否認了消去法等於方便人家去掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7052.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7061.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在、紅夢凱委員、紅夢凱委員、紅夢凱委員不在、翁曉琳委員、翁曉琳委員、翁曉琳委員不在、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7074.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7088.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那今日已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員、沈伯陽委員、林楚英委員、蘇清泉委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7092.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7109.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆委員：口同質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從其所定本席再次宣告有關這個獵鴞專案 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7112.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7119.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
當時編列的過程並不是有55億你們硬編了115億不是這樣子而是根據美國向國會提出的價格115億編列後來在進入實質要簽約的時候發價出來是55億所以產生了60億的差價軍方這一點剛才沒有說明清楚我幫你們說明一下你們並不是人家報55你們編115而是原始的報價就是115 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7140.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7162.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
後來送到國會進到安和局美國的軍種去集合之後把它降到55歲差核60例第二個本委員會現在處理的方式是專案報告來說明這預算的情形這個是要誠實透明的向國防委員會做說明第二個說明之後這一個差額的60億未來到底是另建新案 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7163.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7182.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
或者是徵購或者是繳回不列這個我們今天不做決策由所需的單位軍種向各國防委員進行詳實的溝通之後我們再來決定處理的方式好今天的會議到此結束散會謝謝 |
| IVOD_ID |
16304 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16304 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-17 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-25T08:31:06+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-25T10:31:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |