| IVOD_ID |
163031 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163031 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-09T09:55:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-09T10:16:02+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d58a56a771755aed891914535bb497189ef9fef188de1ed20401f8b1bbbc21182005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
許宇甄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:55:30 - 10:16:02 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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SPEAKER_01 |
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麻煩請蔡備提名人 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
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薛仁豪貝提米人您好我想您時任檢察官將近三十年的時間不管在一審二審的檢察官擔任主任檢察官而且借調最高檢察署多年另外也曾專長您的專長刑事司法案件的實務也多次參與最高法院的一個大法庭的言辭辯論也協助法務部進行憲法的訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
36.781 |
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所以您熟悉司法體系的運作也擅長國際的司法交流但是因為你這次被提名的是大法官而且還要擔任司法院長所以您在3月21號的介紹提名會指出您未來的兩項工作重點一個是在推動法官跟檢察官與一段時間能夠互相交換接觸增加不同的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
61.525 |
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第二點是在於面對五權憲法的失衡狀態涉及憲法層次的事和憲法法庭協助處理跟解決因為針對這個部分外界會質疑這會出現審檢一體的亂象所以連民進黨團的總召也都說檢察官當司法院長當然不妥而您自己也提到總統提名你也覺得不可思議 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.155 |
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116.109 |
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所以這也是外界大家的疑慮所以想請教蔡貝提名人其實我們在這個大法官釋字第392號的解釋有明確的指出針對台灣審檢分立的這個制度事實上這就是台灣審檢分立的一個憲法基石而在國際上日本戰後所制定的檢察聽法也是為了保障審判的獨立而制度上必須與法院分立 互不干預 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
140.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
而在德國也根據德國基本法與刑事訴訟法的相關規定呢也就於這個審判權的刑事審判權的法院保持組織跟職能上的分離那這也是德國也是審檢分立的一個制度喔那因為蔡被庭人您沒有擔任過法官但是呢您在這個總統府庭庭的記者會提到就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
140.945 |
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155.499 |
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在台灣法官比較靜態檢察官比較動態所以希望兩個工作未來能有一段時間互相的交換接觸增加視野但是看起來這已經違背釋之第392號所揭示的憲法原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
156.8 |
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176.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
而且台灣40年來都是審檢分立不僅是憲法的保障也是國際司法的標準那這樣的言行其實已經引發社會對您可能破壞司法獨立的一個高度的疑慮是不是可以請您說明一下是的我在被提名的記者會上確實有講過類似的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
179.847 |
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205.174 |
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但是我當時的想法是只針對未來因為我知道現在法官的工作狀態我剛講的算是比較靜態但是他的工作負荷很重所以如果有機會他去做不同的工作事實上就他的工作或者是他的生活形態來講他事實上一個調整那以在台灣來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
206.722 |
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224.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
檢察官轉任法官或者是法官轉任檢察官這個是實施多年的事實就是說這個有輪調制度一直以來到目前為止都還有今年大概有11位檢察官會調到法官來 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
225.74 |
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242.052 |
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那由法官調去當檢察官的比較少那對於外界的疑慮將對於審檢分立可能違反這樣的原則那你要怎麼來去讓這個司法獨立能夠真正的落實我想我這個說法沒有違法的疑慮因為台灣的審 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
262.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
審檢分立已經40幾年40幾年來從來沒有發生過因為檢察官調來當法官以後他就案件他就會判有罪或者是說會有特別法官去當檢察官以後他就不起訴從來沒有發生過這種情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
264.434 |
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279.787 |
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我想這應該也沒有一個要擔任司法院院長的這個被提名人提出這樣的一個主張因為您不是只是這個交流而是要互相交換就剛剛您講的吧檢審互調這樣子一個狀況那當然外界就會質疑未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
281.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
300.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個檢審分立的制度是不是會嚴重的被破壞所以其實大家都有這樣的疑慮那剛剛我想貝提名人提到這樣的方式事實上我想並不足以說明也並不足以回應外界的一個質疑所以針對這個部分您是不是可以再重新考慮一下是不是還要推動這樣一個這個檢審護調讓司法獨立變成空談呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
304.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
327.583 |
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我想檢診護調這個事情我剛剛講過是事實現在也在實施中不會破壞司法獨立也不會破壞省檢分立那我如果我之前簡短講過了一些話那有造成誤會我要在這裡跟社會大眾道歉這其實是一個誤解 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
329.324 |
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343.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那您剛已經道歉了我想針對這個事情大概也解除了大家的疑慮那另外就是我想請教您就是說您在拉法業界的軍購弊案當中的辦案經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
345.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
370.673 |
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所以是強調因為追回不罰所得所得得到的貢獻喔但是因為這個案子喔當然我想您追回不罰所得的貢獻大家是可以肯定的但在拉法業案中呢前檢察總長盧仁發因為聽命陳水扁總統的動搖國本也要辦到底的指示喔也對當時的北檢檢察長黃世明施壓要求起訴黃世明因為不從被調職您接手後 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
371.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
392.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
立刻的這個羈押起訴了雷學明等五人而且還在辯論法庭說判無罪不符合一般的期待判有罪往船府在國外的錢才能匯回來這樣的話這樣是一個檢察官該講的話嗎這是不是已經有這個背離無罪推定的一個原則呢這有三個問題我一一回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
393.32 |
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409.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第一個問題就是起訴雷學明等案子的這個案件事實上這個案子在起訴是90年7月5號在北檢起訴那時候其實我人在板橋地檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
411.209 |
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437.275 |
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也就是說我是九十年十一月在從板橋地檢的主任檢察官調任台北地檢檢察官所以這個案件起訴的時候我其實我人不在北檢事實上是一個誤會很大的誤會所以這個是第一個如果是一個誤會的話事實上這個媒體報導多年為什麼都沒有看到您在媒體或者在這個這個上面澄清說您並沒有這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
438.315 |
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466.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
說法或狀況這個部分的話我想這個部分因為可能是一個無心之過啦因為就是有法學前輩這樣指正嘛因為他跟這個案子有一些關係所以他有一些想法再看法我覺得無可厚非但是但是為什麼您不出來說明真相呢如果您說的當時並不是你所以這個案子是跟你無關嗎不是跟我無關這個案子因為我後來調到北檢以後我就有參與 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
468.188 |
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485.866 |
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公訴 差異力挺就是我也參加公訴活動參加公訴活動最後在辯論的時候我到底有沒有講過剛剛委員所提過的這兩句話那我不不復記憶因為這是二十幾年前的事情了這是民國九十年嘛但是從一個論告的檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
488.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
506.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
來講這兩句話我覺得並沒有什麼過分的地方這是一個檢察官的主張嘛因為這是辯論但是這已經違反了無罪推論而且當時你是針對證據不足的狀況之下起訴了這五位的軍官而後來也因為沒有辦法得到任何的證據顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
531.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這五位軍官跟他的家人是不是真的有被收到相關的匯款或是不法的利益所以最後他們是不是無罪釋放無罪推定的問題我再跟委員解釋一下就是無罪推定確實是我國刑務訴訟法的規定就是你在被告在判決有罪確定之前都是推定為無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
532.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
550.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
檢察官起訴並不表示他就有罪因為他是無罪推定直到法官判決有罪這個時候他無罪推定才消失請問一下當年如果他被判決無罪那不是符合無罪推定嗎因為他本來就是推定無罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
550.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
578.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那當年請問你在沒有證據的狀況之下起訴這五位軍官的理由是什麼是因為收到上級的指示必須要指這個還是沒有任何的證據當然不是那時候我去力挺的時候我們已經從瑞士拿回來將近一萬頁的銀行資料的證據換句話說我們已經確定這個案子確實法方付了五億兩千萬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
580.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
598.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
美金的佣金到瑞士的汪傳普以及他家人跟公司的帳戶事實上這個有付佣金那跟雷學明這五位有什麼關係當時你們邊有真正的證據那請問有什麼樣的證據嗎否則當時的秀明法官這個洪英花他也不會在這個判決書這個職次檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
601.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
626.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
表態搶攻他講這樣的話其實很重喔表態搶攻有什麼意思要跟誰搶攻就是由上面搶攻嘛所以後來這個案件事實上就是無罪那尤其是賴清德總統他在94年擔任立委的時候也公開指責雷學明等人收賄2000萬美元但雷學明等人最終獲判無罪確定證明當年的指控 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
627.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
654.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
沒有事實根據而你當為主責檢察官奉命起訴後來被證明清白的人那現在賴總統又提名擔任司法院院長是不是形同對這些被害人事實上是再補一刀尤其是針對這樣子他們當年歷經多年的纏訴然後長期的羈押甚至有人還在案件中含冤而死針對這五位受害者 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
655.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
681.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
請問你們你有任何的道歉之意嗎我想這個案件案件的事情剛剛王委員講的就是事實上很難評斷因為有些案件法官判無罪檢察官會上訴上訴以後判無罪也有可能我現在只是針對這個案子針對這個案子對這個案子我想會有公平對這個案子我覺得我不方便在這邊表示我的個人的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
682.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
700.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為這是一個案件他是已經判決確定那就是對於當年你們沒有任何證據的之下起訴然後最後獲判無罪您是不是覺得應該對這些被害人道歉呢我覺得這邊可能不方便這樣講因為一個案子其實非常非常的特別是這個案子是國際 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
702.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
723.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這樣子貪瀆的案件細節其實非常非常的複雜我想這個司法院的組織法第五條規定大法官需要超出黨派可以獨立行使職權不受任何的干預所以如果你連回答這個問題的勇氣都沒有的話我們未來怎麼能夠相信你能夠超出黨派獨立行使職權呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
724.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
741.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我就是在請教這個案子您針對這五位最後無罪被釋放的這五位被害者您有沒有這個道歉之意嗎我尊重法院的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
742.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
764.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我尊重法院的判決因為法院已經判決無罪那我尊重法院的判決另外再請教您就是最近有發生幾起重大的社會案件但司法機關處理的模式也引發爭論讓人質疑就是保政府不保人民台中市豐原五口的命案理性嫌犯以詐欺恐嚇洗錢等罪嫌移送法辦檢方後來是15萬元交保 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
767.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
792.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
交保的理由是沒有串供的問題可是理性嫌犯主導王家去地下這個錢莊高利貸 借高利貸明明還有眾多嫌犯這樣會到案 怎麼會沒有串供他交保後還在網路發文幫自己叫屈這是五條人命耶 結果15萬交保而土城家暴的謝姓男子當街殺害妻子小姨子現在因為涉嫌違反這個家暴保護例如說他太太報警 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
793.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
816.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那前一天呢 他無保賜回之後隔天就殺死了他的妻子跟小姨子而且手法非常凶殘這兩個案子呢 我們可以看得出來鄭文燦的案件 交保林秉賢的交保之後 落跑通緝鍾文智交保之後 落跑通緝許多人在這個網路反映 重大的社會案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
817.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
839.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
跟親民進黨的人都可以交保那反觀來說做一個梗圖的人必須要羈押禁建疑似偽造文書的人必須要羈押禁建我們知道羈押涉及人權這個字人身自由就有高度的強制性與痛苦性所以非必要不得輕率為之可是我們現在可以看到部分的檢察官在偵判案件的時候都會以 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
840.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
858.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
羈押作為取共的主要工具跟過去的這個虛打成招事實上完全沒有兩樣所以根據2023年我們3月民間團體公布的司法信心民意調查有高達84.7的民眾認為檢察官辦案受政治力的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
859.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
880.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
而您過去也因為在這個有政治氛圍下對證據不足的案件人對人起訴無辜的這個記錄而司法院院長是守護司法正義的最後一道防線如果未來總統或行政院長對您提出政治性的要求時候您是不是能夠承諾拒絕配合堅守司法獨立 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
881.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
899.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
當然我應該遵守就是維持司法堅持司法獨立但是剛剛委員我再強調一遍剛剛委員提到這個案子不是我起訴的所以不是被判無罪我沒有任何這個抱歉的意思或是相類似的評論 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
900.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
929.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那至於委員所提到的這幾個案子我也跟委員一樣就是從報紙上得知一些相關的訊息我對這幾個案子了解非常非常有限所以我真的你都報紙上看到這樣的媒體的時候如果你是我們身為一般人民好了你看到會不會非常憤怒五條人命十五萬交保非常遺憾非常非常遺憾所以這個表示我們的在目前的這個司法檢調系統出了很大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
930.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
954.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以這也是大家非常憤怒的問題那另外呢還有就是要請教您的就是有關廢死的問題因為我看您在您回覆國民黨的問卷當中表示您不支持廢除死刑是嗎是的那您不支持廢除死刑那針對憲判次第八號的判決您的看法咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
957.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
981 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
第八號他是認為現在的死刑制度不違憲這一點我支持但是以現在是第八號等同是實質廢死了是相當困難是沒錯相當困難好我想請教一下您擔任檢察官近三十年對於這個何義廷的法官必須一致決才能判死在您的實務經驗上有沒有過這樣子的案例何義廷的法官一致決 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
986.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1002.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
一致決我自己的經驗判死刑基本上都是一致決了並不是因為有這個判決因為目前的這個宪判第八號是就是三審的法官必須要一致決才能判決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1003.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1018.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
以您近30年的這個檢察官的一個經歷有沒有過這樣子的一個例子有沒有去統計說一審二審三審全部判死刑老師講的以我當檢察官我案子是判了案件我有曾經起訴案件判死刑過所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1019.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1036.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
有還是沒有三審都一致覺得三審我沒有去統計因為統計還是不敢回答不是不敢回答有還是沒有呢因為就我的了解要三審一致決幾乎是難如登天啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1036.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1052.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我相信也沒有一個檢察官有遇過這樣的狀況所以這樣等同是實質廢死所以我很高興聽到您說您不支持廢除死刑可是對於憲判制第八號幾乎是等同是實質廢死的這個部分未來如果您擔任司法院長 您要怎麼來解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1054.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1074.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我想這個案子已經判決了那憲法法庭的判決他是對人民跟機關都有拘束力的那除非有憲法訴訟法第42條這些規定的要件他可以申請人民政府機關都可以申請重新來 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1075.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1100.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以在這邊如果沒有這種狀況我想您不支持廢除死刑跟80%的民意是一樣的那當然對於限判制第八號我們其實是非常的遺憾因為等同是實質廢死那未來呢我想尊重大多數的民意尊重八成的民意應該是您作為如果您將來作為司法院長應該要做的事情那另外還有就是針對賴清德總統的實獎賴總統第三獎談到的憲政 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1104.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1129.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
他說五五憲草或中華民國憲法台灣並沒有派員參加而實際上的狀況我相信你很清楚台灣有沒有派員參加沒有什麼我聽不清楚剛剛的問題我說賴清德總統在第三講的時候有提到憲法的相關問題其中他提到五五憲草或者是中華民國憲法台灣並沒有派員參加 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1132.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1150.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
您知道這個台灣到底有沒有派員參加這點老實講我不了解那對政治人物的好我告訴你台灣曾經派出18名這個及審議會各縣市議員農運會工會代表等這個參加制憲會議所以這個都是有你可以看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1151.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1170.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
也有當時的一個名單所以賴清德總統就是公然說謊而且在誤導國人製造對立那被提名人您對賴清德總統的這種行為有何看法我現在證據告訴你了嗎有 有18個人參加那您對於賴清德總統這種造謠製造對立的行為有什麼看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1171.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1188.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我沒有辦法確認說賴總統是不是明明知道說台灣有派員參加而說沒有這一點我沒有辦法確認所以賴總統他自己根本都搞不清楚狀況就提出這樣的質疑是這樣的說法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1189.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1213.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
這個我沒有辦法評論要不然最後一個總統怎麼會在他要針對這個這個什麼團結時講的時候連這個都搞不清楚就公然的這樣子的造謠製造對立所以如果你連回答這樣的勇氣都沒有的話你要怎麼擔任司法院長不是回答勇氣的問題這是我不知道他的狀況賴總統錯就是錯的他就是造謠不是說他知不知道或是他有沒有在事前了解我覺得這個應該都要非常非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1222.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1228.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
好 謝謝謝謝徐宇辰委員的詢問謝謝蔡備提名人的說明 |