| IVOD_ID |
16300 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16300 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-22 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-22T14:15:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-22T17:19:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
03:04:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609782d031285452571e2293a64293cf5d9b104c5adbfed68f71d26ecb84d109e785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-22T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會「行使考試院院長、副院長及考試委員同意權案」公聽會（事由：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會「行使考試院院長、副院長及考試委員同意權案」公聽會） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
14:15:00 - 17:19:00 |
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11670.12284375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
579.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
580.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1624.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1646.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好,謝謝各位學者專家以及本院的牛雪婷、牛委員各位在場的新聞界的好朋友以及在場關心的所有的女士先生今天我們舉行考試院人事同意權公聽會是依照立法院本會期第9次會議院會所作決議辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1648.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1664.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
也都知道,考試院為國家最高考試機關,掌理憲法徵修條文及第6條第一項所定四項及憲法賦予之職權,對於政府培育人才、發展、肩負的職責非常重大。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1665.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1679.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本院依憲法附託,代表人民行使同意權我們要以最嚴謹的態度,針對每位被提名人之資格進行審查因此舉辦本次公聽會以作為審查之參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1680.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1705.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
本次受各黨團所推薦出席的學者專家均為在領域之內學有專精的代表性人物具備豐富的法證學養相信一定能為本次委員提供最寶貴的意見在此要特別代表立法院感謝所有參加公聽會所有的學者專家的出席以及各位的準備與發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1707.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1728.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
今天公聽會進行的程序我們先做以下的宣告一、發言時程每位學者專家發表時間為10分鐘審查小組的委員每位委員時間同樣為10分鐘本院委員發言完畢之後再由學者專家代表綜合答覆30分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1730.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1750.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
因此,請各位學者專家發表高見之後也能聽取本院各黨團所推派之委員代表之詢問發言最後,還要再次拜託各位學者專家賜教答覆等今天整個議程圓滿結束之後,我們再行離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1751.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1766.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
二、發言的順序我們先由學者專家發言再次由審查小組的委員發言最後由學者專家綜合答覆相關的發言順序請參閱陳列在各位桌上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1767.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1794.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
名單各黨團所推薦的學者專家、審查小組委員如果不在場得由各黨團互相調換次序另外在發言時間結束前一分鐘我們大會處會按鈴一短鈴發言時間介致時我們會再按一個長鈴今天我們非常榮幸請到各位學者專家首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1797.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1822.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我要先介紹今天要列席的學者專家,這非常難得首先介紹紀俊成紀教授、李玉成呂教授、邱華鈞邱教授、康兆周康教授、桂紅成桂教授、林佳和林教授、陳清秀陳教授,熱情歡迎,熱情歡迎那本院呢,現在目前有國民黨團推派的牛許廷委員在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1825.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1836.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席韓院長、卓秘書長、民運委員、各位與會的學者專家、各位委員、各位記者、女士先生今天承蒙 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1855.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1878.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
立法院的邀請有機會列席這個協助專家的一個公聽會感到非常榮幸我想作為一個考試委員他最重要的就是要行使他的職權那麼憲法在徵修條文的第6條已經明確的規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1883.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1897.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
考試委員行使的職權只要有三項一個是考試,考試權的問題再來是前夕權的問題主要是在公務人員前夕、補夕、退休季這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1899.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1902.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
公聽會：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1925.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1952.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
作為一個考試委員根據考試院組織法第4條規定他是要寫有專精的第一個他曾經是大學教授10年以上生意卓志是有專門著作的第二個是有相當專業經驗的高等考試及格20年以上而且是要承認檢驗值滿10年成績卓著 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1953.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1953.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1969.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1995.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
他們過去的經驗包括我們周秘書長、政府考試委員等等來參考的話我在這裡也很不客氣的提到就我初步的了解因為我並沒有做過考試委員雖然我曾經有擔任過命題委員、典事委員等等但是還是沒有實際參與他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1999.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2018.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
不過我了解考試委員的提名很多都是政治任命所以專業可能不太夠我甚至可以在這裡不客氣的講過去曾經有考試委員提名人選和審查委員的人選是不一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2020.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2036.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
明明審查委員通過人選到總統提名的時候換了一個人而且換了一個沒有簽票通過的簽票通過拿到一個沒有票的這個是非常離譜的所以政黨舉項對於考試委員的任命可以說是一個非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2043.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2068.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
衝突的一個問題那怎麼樣的把這個衝突我希望像這一屆的考試委員應該就要避免這樣一個情況第二個考試委員最重要的工作之一就是考試權的行使而大部分的考試的特種考試也好高普考考試也好不是有考試院的院長副院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2069.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2093.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
或是考試委員來擔任典式委員長那麼典式委員長再來找這些典式委員是不是會有不夠普及化的問題我因為做過典式委員而且做也是蠻多年的事情大概30幾歲做到70幾歲在這個過程中我就發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2099.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2121.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
有些委員他的專長不見得是某一科的,結果他去擔任那一科的命題委員而且我越見的時候也發現有題目出錯的我再詳細講一次有一次我在改行政學考卷的時候有四題有兩題答案是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2123.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2150.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你看多離譜啊試題有打兩題一樣那考生絕對不會相信有這個事情發生嘛所以我再怎麼改啊不會有75分以上的因為一顆一定是不對嘛這個是一個問題再來呢還有這個命題啊嚴重到離譜法律條文修改都不知道的這個來講我都覺得啊我們未來的考試院啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2152.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2177.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
一定要盡量找這個寫有專精的寫者專家來擔任委員現在用這個電腦來找人好像是公平但是不專業為什麼呢我寫書我是懂什麼那就變成電腦的對象那糟糕了就我個人的了解李教授也在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2179.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2207.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
地方政府的出題有一些我就覺得是怪怪的以我比較有專長的行政法也是一樣有一年普考行政法選擇題它的答案都是錯的那這個是出題出在哪裡呢所以說我們希望未來的考試院考試委員 當任典事委員長找這些典事委員或是命題委員一定要找專業的 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2209.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2232.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我比較傾向於老中青山結合不要了一定要多少年怎麼樣這個多平衡一點也許他可以考慮比較周圍一點那麼我有一次參加口試結果我發現那個口試委員竟然都問的那些都不得體的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2233.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2244.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你家有幾個人啊?你太太在幹什麼啊?這和他的專業有什麼關係呢?對不對?他應該問說你現在要去出任什麼工作那你有沒有這個專長吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2246.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2267.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
就問那些非常不必要的題目我是覺得這些都是像外交人員也好或是其他有考試委員的時候要有考試的時候應該要找那個有實務經驗的而且尊重了解的人來問問題而不是因為自己不夠了解而這樣問題就比較複雜了再來就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2271.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2295.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
保障的保訓的工作我想最近幾天發生了這個所謂霸凌的事情我們公聽會保障法對這個霸凌雖然沒有霸凌兩個字啊它有宣示制度啊它有對這個工作環境啊不良啊它可以有宣示意見的所以我是覺得考試院尤其保訓會啊應該盡量來宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2299.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2323.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
對於這種公認的保障制度使他能夠減少有這個霸凌的事情發生我想這個是一個問題所以我提出來幾個策進的方法第一個我是覺得現在考試委員人數已經從20幾位降到只有7到9個人那麼不管是院長副院長都要有 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2324.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2324.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2340.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2366.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
要選出身份之外還有專精尤其是人事行政方面我們過去考試委員人事行政方面人力配置比較少所以造成這個院會討論的時候可能就不是那麼樣的專業這是我的看法再來就是說這個典事委員我也是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2371.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2397.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
電腦選人是一種方法但是也應該多注意到他尊者的專精在哪裡他如果是行政法的就找他行政法這樣的話會比較不是說他自己填說我填什麼就是什麼因為看看他在大學裡面開過課或是他的論文他寫過什麼論文這樣的話比較專精對他的意見會有幫助我想各位都知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2398.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2421.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
業卷是公務是輸問題的話你沒有相當的一個判斷力可能會有一點偏差這是我一個看法再來就是剛剛提到這個保障法的事情我覺得應該加強先導使我們這些應該有獲得保障的公務人員確實能夠依法去爭取他的權益依法去維護他的權益 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2423.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2441.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那麼就專業考試方面我也是覺得可能像最近婆婆醫師都在考慮專業的問題相關的制度方面也許我們考試院還可以做一點努力的方向謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2442.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2442.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2458.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2458.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
林家和教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2475.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2488.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
謝謝主席在座各位先進人大家好很抱歉因為我有其他行程所以可能我發表完我的意見就容許我先離席非常抱歉我想以下是我得一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2489.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2506.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那我想大家都非常清楚考試權在一個三權分立的權力的區分之下它是比較接近行政權的一個內涵但是在我國五權憲法的結構之下獨立出了考試院 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2506.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2536.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以考試院某個程度扮演了行政權的作用就像剛剛我們季教授特別提到的一些專業上的考量所以我個人因為我個人是法律學者就容許我用比較法律專業的這個角度不是我個人法律專業而是我們需要什麼樣法律專業的考試委員的這個角度那麼從行政權來看依法行政他必須那麼堅持跟秉持法律所 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2536.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2536.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2553.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2582.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
第4在公務員任免考積及奉等直接交由行政院在分工上我講的都很清楚在行政院人事行政局最早期他作為一個總統根據《道人開戰時期》臨時條款特別所授予的一個權限到今天我們行政權下面人事行政的整體法治化但是因為五權憲法我們繼續維持所以不管是考試制度的建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2583.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2583.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2607.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2607.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
副院委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2626.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2653.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
政治專業恐怕是必要的當然我的政治專業並不是所謂的單純的政黨傾向指的不是那個從這個角度來看我們可以發現第一從憲法來看行政專業的法律專業的考試委員可能可以比較更清楚的掌握考試權跟其他憲法機關的關係以及權限的競合跟可能的分際當然相對於行政權 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2657.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2674.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
任何機關都有適用憲法的義務在這幾年社會相關的紛擾並不少見所以考試權也有類似的問題包括這兩天我們所看到的以及不久前憲法法庭關於公務員懲戒其實都連到了這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2675.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2699.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
法律方面必須熟悉法律保護的分工這幾年在我們大院的努力之下對於立法有很多的努力但那些努力不允讓外界看到有非常多的法律變成細則化這當然跟行政機關是不是真正的遵守法律的意旨 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2699.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2699.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2719.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2719.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2747.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2747.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
政治專業經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2762.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2779.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
如果像內閣制國家內閣制國家那麼國會議員可以兼任部長那豈不說那都沒有資格因為這個國會議員都是政治取向當然不能用這個角度看政治取向不但不為過甚至是必要的但重點是專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2780.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2808.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
就是說在政治的狀況上包括我們今天所面對的像職業公務員制度法律救濟制度乃至於政府官僚體系運作很重要的跟國會的關係雖然叫五權分立但考試院的職權仍然必須遵守法律保留換言之仍然要有立法院制定的法律所以如何跟國會的關係有一個比較好的互動乃至於核心政策的形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2811.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2812.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
副院長、副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2830.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2857.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
職業公務員制度的善養原則如何跟公務員合理的信賴保障能夠有一個比較好的形成我個人會認為周鴻憲被提名人他在過去幾年的這一個專業上我個人認為他是相當的市格不管在二部議會包括法律專業跟我們目前的周副院長他的公職的經歷跟專業我個人都認為是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2861.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2873.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
在程序權及其他法律權利上在憲法上人民有兩種程序權類型一個是本於憲法保障的程序地位人民有實體權這個實體權必須讓他在程序面向上有所參與例如參與權 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2888.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2888.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2912.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2912.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2933.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2933.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2950.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2971.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
自由民主法治國家中極為少見的公務員組織公會的國家我們在這兩天遺憾事件所凸顯的公務員職業安全的保護上也一直跟那麼民營的勞動者在職業安全衛生法享有的保障的密度、程度、類型跟效力都差別很大 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2972.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2972.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3000.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3018.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
目前看到的被提名人不管是過去的經歷跟考試院業務是有關聯乃至於台灣非常重要的民族學特別是原住民族這方面公共管理乃至於海洋、事務、土木甚至護理乃至於環保 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3018.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3018.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3041.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3041.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3057.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3081.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
法治的民主國家不需要對政治如此的畏懼政治的形成、參與、擔任一定的職務這個不但有受公平,某些時候甚至是必要的以上的意見在提供軍院參考,謝謝好,謝謝林佳和教授的發言,非常感謝那在接下來我們請第三位秋華軍教授請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3084.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3094.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
院長、主席、各位委員、總秘書長、學者、專家、各位媒體、各位女士、先生大家好我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3095.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3120.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
考試院第14屆院長、副院長及考試委員提名人依照我們考試院組織法第5條的提名資格要件總體來看的話比起第13屆是好得多那9位有6位通過了國家考試及格這是相當少見的以往 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3120.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3121.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3147.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3164.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
觀測考試用人行使憲法賦予之前的多少有認識和期待7位考試委員提名人從提名組合來說涵蓋了所謂的防保工程、土木工程、護理 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3164.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3164.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3185.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3212.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
人事經驗所以從人事資源的專長對於人事政策、法治、規劃、建言將會有很大的注意第三就是發展性那現今人工智慧AI的時代唯一我們正式提名是缺了所謂的電機工程和資訊工程的人選這是比較有缺憾的未來可能在典事委員或典事委員、相事委員的部分的時候加以人選的彌補 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3213.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3214.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3234.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3235.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3252.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3252.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3275.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3304.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
至於這九位提名人人選就在書面上所述對我們考試院的一種願景和變革我提出我個人的一點看法不代表它是對錯的問題而是在某些上給予一種補強和建議那第一位就是我們的院長提名人周鴻憲先生他在願景上要執行的有七個面向的議題那我也很認同這七項 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3304.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3306.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
副院長、副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3325.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3325.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3347.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3347.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3367.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3367.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3384.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3385.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
主席主席主席主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3405.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3406.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3424.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3424.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3439.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3440.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
副院長、副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3466.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3466.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3482.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3508.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
要以顯然不合理的做調整作為優先這在調整的一個順序第二就是我們副院長的提名人選的話我們許書翔先生因為他當過8年的考選的實務經驗對於考選工作非常閒熟我個人就是對他新時代考選策略白皮書建言未來有新革新的方向提到有意將 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3510.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3511.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
委員會．第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3525.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3526.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3549.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3550.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3567.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3580.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
第3要增建電腦化的測驗合格認證的市場和座位數我認為要不要好不要做預期的需要做考量需要精準的計算一年參加電腦化 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3583.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3583.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
第3 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3612.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3613.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3631.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3633.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3651.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3651.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3681.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3682.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3704.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3704.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
好,謝謝! |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3728.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3732.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
主席、各位專家學者還有立法委員還有我們的媒體小姐跟先生大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3754.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3767.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
我今天主要是要來針對具有專技的專業背景的考試委員對考試院的一個重要性做一下我個人的一個意見的表達 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3768.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3783.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
第一 考試院不僅職長文官法治與考選當然也負責辦理專業技術人員資格考試以及所謂的專技人員的考試專技人員是民間各行各業 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3784.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3798.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
運作所需要的人力提供人民專業服務保障人民生命安全及權益並支撐各領域的專業發展因此專業人員對於國家發展的重要性並不亞於公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3800.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3821.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
第二,專技人員教考訓用的連結非常重要,考試委員除了需要具備專業知識與豐富的學養之外,堂獲對用人機關的實務需求有充分的了解,更能透過有效的考選方式,考用夠水準的專技人員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3823.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3841.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
此外,這些專機人員不只在民間工作,也可能在公立機構中服務,或者依法轉任公職人員進入政府機關服務,例如一事人員可以以私籍的方式進入公務體系。 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3842.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3858.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以重視專技人員考試除了維持民間專技證照的專業水準對於政府運作也會有所幫助第三,專技考試的主要目的之一是保障人民的生命和安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3862.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3879.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
通過嚴格的資格認證過程可以確保例如醫事人員包含醫生、護士以及工程師及其他專業人員具備必要的知識和技能從而減少職業失誤和事故的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3880.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3894.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
內部醫療專技考試能確保醫護人員能正確診斷和治療疾病工程專技考試則能確保建築和基礎建設的安全與穩固 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3895.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3911.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
各位專技人員的專技、專業可以保障人民維持生活、食、醫、住、行也就是吃的安全、醫療安全、住的安全、行的安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3913.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3936.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
所以一張考試委員提名當中不能只有懂公務人員的人或是純粹的學者一定要有人懂得專技領域的實務運作尤其是辦理考試的考試院和考選部的文官雖然很優秀但畢竟都是人事背景出身對於公務領域較為熟悉對專技領域的職業需求則相對的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3943.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3956.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
所以考試院對於專技領域的理解絕對需要具有專業專技背景的考試委員來補強才能更深切切合實際所需要的決策品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3959.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3976.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
⑤專精人員證照近有80種,分為四大領域,包含醫事科學、工程科學、社會科學、海事科學這當中醫事科學類有20多種,工程類有30多種,以這兩類領域為最大中 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3978.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4003.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
注意到這次的被提名人中具有兩位來自這兩大專業基礎領域的人員包含了護理師王秀紅以及環境工程師鄧家基先生本身具有專技的證照也有行政經驗或參加典事的經驗這值得立法委員們在行使同意權時加以重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4005.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4021.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我本身是一個專機人員曾經也服務學校也透過醫事人員任用條例服務於衛福部站在專機人員的立場我們希望考試院的決策組成中一定要有專機人員的聲音 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4022.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4038.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
無論是工程、醫事、社會或是海事,尤其是醫事領域,非常需要有了解專業實務的考試委員,扮演考試院和主管機關、衛福部以及相關學會、工會、學界的溝通橋樑 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4041.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4055.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
最後是對於未來如果有專業人員的考試委員有一些建議由於科技的進步社會所需的專業人員領域也應當有所改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4056.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4085.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
目前我們看到過去的一個專技人員有些科目是並不符合時代的需求因此希望未來考試委員能夠對於這些專技的領域的必要性能夠檢討並考慮增加符合時代所需的專技考試第二個目前的專技考試的命題都是由聘請外界的專家學者 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4087.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4101.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
在中間我們也發現了常會出現某些考試的類科他的及格率非常的低但有些卻非常的高因此希望未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4102.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4105.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
非常感謝康教授 非常感謝您接下來請第5位貴宏誠貴教授請給我們寶貴意見 謝謝謝謝院長 在座的委員還有各位同仁以及媒體記者 大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4133.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4158.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我今天是站在我如何能夠提供給我們要行使同意權的立法委員們提供他們將來行使同意權在審查這些被提名人的資格的時候可能要從哪個角度來看這些被提名人那麼我首先要提到就是說考試院的正副院長他並沒有法定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4159.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4159.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4176.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4190.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
這表示很重要很重要的話我們審這個資格的時候我們一定要先看他們到底符不符合法定的任命資格那麼我有提供一個說明意見我也把本來有5款108年底的時候因為當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4192.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4206.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
他還有一個背景 這個背景也很重要因為當時是上上屆的考試院那個時候應該是馬總統他提名的所以任期有交錯所以蔡總統上台之後他們還在任 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4209.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4230.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
當時有很多重大的案件比如說年金改革還有所謂黨職所謂他們講黨職並公職其實是黨職公職相互採集退休年資這個要點追討什麼退休金這些案子乃至於口譯哥以約聘人員外派駐美代表處政治組組長 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4232.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4249.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我印象中考試委員在那個時候都有提供一些提出一些質疑的意見其實這就是考試院獨立超然獨立的功能所在他不會只聽行政院的所以他提出了不同的意見可是呢在當時啊就被 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4250.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4275.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
民進黨的立委也就是現在的監察院秘書長李敬毅在公開說要對考試院宣戰然後就發動了戰爭然後就修改了考試院組織法還包括剛剛好像有幾位先進學者有提到我們考試委員所能夠容納的專業領域跟範圍好像有些不夠不夠的原因就是因為那次修法把它改成現在的7到9人而已本來好像是19人 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4276.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4304.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那既然法律已經修改了而且那麼重要所以我們一定要來先看我們被提名人的考試委員到底符不符合法定的任命資格那我在這邊我有特別提到我們七位裡面除了有兩位除了有其他其他是大學教授的資格或者是擔任過檢任長任官20年以上這些基本上都沒有問題那其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4304.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4327.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
另外有兩位他是用一款而那一款是所謂的學士豐富有特殊著作或發明那我們可以看用這款被提名的是鄧家基被提名人那麼我們就要先看他到底有什麼特殊著作我透過網路的搜尋或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4329.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4356.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
圖書館的檢索我找不到他所附的這三項著作我想可能就是他這個著作很特殊之處讓你還找不到這是第一點這個現象其實上一屆就有了那都已經卸任了我直接提醒不要一再發聲因為這個法律畢竟是民進黨所制定的當你提名候選人、被提名人的時候應該要嚴謹地遵守法律那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4357.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4375.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
我們來看他這三份著作分別是什麼博覽會的全記錄淡水河的生命筆記還有一個是第二階段新北市低碳城市計畫書出版者都是臺北縣政府不然就是新北市政府反正網路上也找不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4376.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4401.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
那我唯一找到的是儀式可能是那份著作了是一個YouTube影片那是在淡水河很多人投稿後來可能入選了就把它編輯成一份那個YouTube的一個影片那裡面的總編輯就是我們這位被提名人這樣子的一個著作的確很特殊但是不是我們這邊法律所定的特殊著作 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4402.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4425.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這是一個很嚴重的懷疑我知道過去有一位他不是鄭教授但是他有獲得考試委員的提名並且獲得同意他的特殊著作是他曾經得到過國家文藝獎這個算特殊吧那現在這個著作你找不到而且它根本不能算是著作因為你今天是政府的出版而且是你的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4426.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4434.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
公務的文書報告或者是你的績效展示或者是你的工作記錄而且作者不會是你一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4435.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4465.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
像類似這種政府機關的所謂的這種報告或者什麼著作的話通常就是下面的承辦人開始就叢林啊等等等等最後你是機關首長你就掛名了嘛這個怎麼會變成你以這種特殊著作來證明你學識豐富呢所以我覺得這個部分啊是要特別留意的我只是站在立法委員應該要依法來審查他的資格這個角度來看待這個問題啊那另外他也提出了他有一個發明 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4466.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4486.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
而這個發明是好多人共同創作了一項申請得到的專利而這項專利是屬於新型專利因此我們如果來看我們來查專利法裡面所定的專利有哪三種第一個叫發明第二個叫新型第三個叫設計這個設計以前就叫新試樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4488.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4501.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那他這項專利就只是新型啊既然是新型就不是發明啊可是他怎麼會把他的新型專利列為發明呢那這又是一個很嚴重的問題啊那我是覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4503.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4523.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
嚴重是在於說為什麼提名審見小組在審查的時候難道都是不依據法律不看法律的條文的規定嗎那其實呢剛剛有些先進他也提到像這位委員他可能真的很適任因為他在環保他是環保方面的專家也有很好的食物經驗其實我們看他的實際經歷來看的話也的確他擔任過臺北市議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4528.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4534.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
臺北縣政府及新北市政府的一級機關首長而且也擔任過新北市的副市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4535.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4558.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
每次隨著他的職務上的一個提升他就換了一個不同政治立場的黨派從新黨到國民黨又到白色力量伴隨著這樣的一個陣營的變化而有所職務上的提升其實這樣一個情形也很好那就證明了他富有政治經驗而且聲譽良好才會每換一個陣營 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4560.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4566.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
換了一個更能夠發揮所長的職務那既然是這樣子的話我們就要回到我剛剛一開始所講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4568.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4592.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
民國108年被民進黨修正考試院組織法之前的任命條件裡面有一項就是富有政治經驗、深意卓著者如果大家認為這位被提名人很適任的話可是他不符法定資格而這個法定資格又已經被民進黨修掉了這個是我要特別要說明的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4593.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4614.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
另外一個我很快來講還有另外一個原住民他其實是他其實是連任連任的話照理說我們不需要再審什麼了以前考試院組織法就有規定承認考試委員生育著住者那就是他的這個他任命條件結果他現在又必須要用所謂的學士豐富有特殊著作那他這邊列出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4615.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4644.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
免搶可以算為特殊著作因為原住民研究原住民的所有的研究相對於漢人而言那就是特殊這個還免搶就過去了但我只是強調108年的修法是亂修造成這樣的一個結果因為時間不夠最重要的是我要講得快一點那接下來我要特別提到關於院長這個部分我們可以借這兩天的一個案例來看我們要請教院長考試院的被提名人當 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4646.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4668.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
一個考機懲處兩大過免職如此嚴重的案件在考機委員會還沒有開會之前為什麼你在下午4點半行政院院長就可以召開記者會說明結果是什麼那麼周鴻燊擔任過全序部部長擔任過考試院副院長請說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4669.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4688.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這樣到底符不符合《考機法》的規定?《考機法》是怎麼規定的?不曉得他知不知道另外,用最後的時間我再講一點過去來說的話,考試院要能發揮功能的話院長一定有相當的政治聲譽在黨內或在政界能夠抵禦行政院那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4694.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4711.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
過去曾經有一個黑鷹救護直升機墜機的撫恤事件當時民進黨的黨主席對於權敘部很不滿因為報紙報導的錯誤結果他就說卓文快就說我看到了拳頭都硬了那我現在就要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4712.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4731.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
那現在行政院院長是卓榮泰他的拳頭更硬了那周鴻憲能抵擋得住嗎還是依然的配合行政院跟民進黨那成為他將來帶領考試院的方向那我覺得這個是一個他的一個試院資格的條件的問題以上報告到此 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4733.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4749.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
謝謝貴弘誠教授的發言現在已經有6位教授發言也跟各位學者專家來報告一下我們副院長江啟臣副院長也到現場了也向副院長跟大家問好謝謝我們現在休息10分鐘請用一點咖啡用點點心10分鐘之後開始謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5149.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5149.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5356.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5362.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
好,我們現在繼續開會進行學者專家發言請呂育成教授發言發言時間10分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5366.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5385.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
主席副院長還有各位委員以及在座學者專家大家午安今天非常榮幸有這個機會來參加我們立法院關於這個考試院院長副院長及考試委員任命的公聽會那麼相信剛才在前一階段各位應該聽了很多各位對於委員們的這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5387.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5387.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5406.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5427.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
施金提到周遂、舊邦、齊敏、韋雄我個人蠻喜歡這句話為什麼這樣說今年是這個我們說第14屆的這一次的任命案剛好會碰到考試院成立100週年這樣的一個很紀念性的一個日子根據當時中華民國國民政府組織法的概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5428.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5447.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以我覺得我們這一次的任命跟考試院會的組成一方面它有一個定垂考試院過去100年成就的歷史意義同時它也肩負了一個開創下一個百年新局的使命 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5448.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5472.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以我個人更期待委員們可以從整個考試院的政策的高度來思考未來人選們的一個事任的議題換句話說人當然很重要更重要的是這些人如何去行使職權以及怎麼樣把整個我們憲政機關帶到一個新的發展的途徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5474.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5499.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
好 那麼我還是重複一下 剛才幾位先進都已經講過了根據憲法正確條文第6條 考試院為國家最高考試機關我個人的解讀是這三項第一個 它從國家的角度 它一定要去引領 去履行憲法所賦予它的這個權責不僅如此 它應該要讓整個制度是一個有生命的 是能夠被發展的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5500.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5515.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
而且呢,我們大家國人現在很關心的就是在人事的禁用跟這個規模上面我們應該怎麼樣讓這一件事情能夠符合當前乃至未來時空背景的需求這是我覺得當務之急 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5522.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5549.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
除了憲法徵求條文的規定之外我覺得我們也可以從考試院組織法來思考怎麼樣來集眾思廣眾議剛才邱華軍邱部長也提到考試院是一個合一制的組織一個委員非常的稱職更重要的是這個委員會這一個合一的組織能夠發揮功能事實上考試院組織法已經提供了這樣的一個法源的依據我個人的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5551.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5552.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
副院長、副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5569.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5590.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那這樣的考量必須是以國家的發展為基礎而且能夠讓各種不同的意見獲得一種共識跟折衝我想在座先進都知道在一種國家發展的一個重要時刻下這個協商跟折衝的功能應該是考試院未來一個非常關鍵性的一個職能的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5592.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5619.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
好,所以根據這樣的一個思考架構其實我今天來這邊想了很久我覺得從這一個整個考試院的憲政的地位再加上當前整個環境的一個需求以及呢,如果我們認為這樣的憲政體制未來還要持續的發展100年以上的話那麼我覺得有四項重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5620.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5628.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
可以提供委員們未來在審查相關的考試院的議題乃至於說考試委員的資格的時候來思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5629.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5649.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
第一個就是剛才幾位專家也提到了,基於這一個第13屆考試院的一個施政作為一個傳承,事實上在第13屆花了很多的心思去做考試方式多元化,乃至於那個考試方法管道等等的一個改變。 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5650.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5674.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那麼未來這第14屆是不是會延續這樣的一個施政的成果繼續的往前推那特別是關於管道跟技術的多元化這個議題我覺得也許這個未來的考試院院會還是院長副院長可以對這件事情做出一個政策性的一個思考跟決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5675.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5675.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5690.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5713.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
他主管的就是主編乃至於這一個全序全省的相關的議題那麼長期以來各界對於這個議題一直都認為似乎政府沒有辦法去回應到機關的需求乃至於民眾的需求我個人認為或許新一屆的考試院或者考試委員們能夠針對這個議題重新的去思考 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5716.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5744.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
因應的一個途徑當然國家公務人員這個是我們整個長期整個政府運作一個穩定的力量但是呢因應社會的需求是不是也一定要完全按照過去的這個制度設計不要忘了我們現在的新人事制度是民國76年也就是1987年的時候所定的一個架構距離現在已經真的非常久遠了 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5745.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5763.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
因應21世紀的現在的環境乃至於未來的需求我們是不是還一定要堅持民國76年的版本才能夠去符合所謂的傳承我覺得這個議題真的需要新一屆的考試院會重新的去架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5765.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5783.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
第三個我覺得這個是針對未來的保障暨培訓委員會的這個思路我們過去通常會很強調所謂的權益的保障事實上當前可能更是這個樣但是我覺得更重要的一件事情在於因應國家未來的發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5784.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5805.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
或者是我們社會的需要怎麼樣去培育高級公務人力所謂的高級並不是說他的身份或者是他的特別的成就而是他必須要有能力去引領帶領整個國家的各級政府機關去因應或者是去符合各界的期待跟需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5806.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5822.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
當然現在包括人事行政總署或這個保訓會也有類似的培育的這個制度但總覺得一方面這個數量不夠多第二個他可能沒有辦法全盤的去照顧到國家發展的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5823.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5843.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
總結前面的三項的意見我個人其實最期待的就是新一屆的考試委員應該要去訂一個2050文官制度前瞻白皮書之所以用2050年除了我們2050年是這個淨零排放的一個目標年 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5844.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5864.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
其實我昨天又想到了另外一件事如果今年考上國家考試包括高考三級、普考等等他在2050年的時候也就是從現在開始到2050年正是他奉獻他能力最好的也是最重要的一個時段 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5865.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5882.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
如果考試院能夠針對這一段期間的整個文官的制度包括考選包括權序包括保障包括人海的培育乃至於我國整體文官的一個發展我覺得這一屆的考試委員將 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5883.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5909.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
不愧是整個考試院運作100年來很重要的一個總結同時也可以去發揮下一個發展階段一個很重要的功能所以我還是期待委員們在思考每一個包括院長副院長跟委員們的事任性專業性之外其實更能夠從一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5911.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5913.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
以上是我個人的一些分享感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5946.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5956.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
主席、各位委員、各位女士先生、各位先進、大家午安、大家好很榮幸有這個機會來參與這個公聽會我們知道這個考試院是主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5962.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5963.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
公聽會委員．第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5987.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5987.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6006.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6006.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
副院委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6023.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6040.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
文官制度等於是一個人力資源管理的體系執行或策略規劃的機構人力資源管理的策略規劃必須要有這方面的人才我們看看今天提名的人選 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6042.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6070.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
有涉及到人力資源管理的其實是不多的也就是說考試院過去我以前在2009年民國108年的時候我就發現到政府機關行政機關是比較貼近民意的比較注意到民意的需求但是考試院的話尤其是全序部我就發現它對民意距離是非常遙遠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6071.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6099.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
那麼也就是說因為他不是第一線作業他等於是第二線幕僚作業所以他的很多的觀念都非常的保守沒有辦法符合時代的環境的需求這是我當時在工作上觀察到的一個現象因此我覺得當我們的人力資源的配置沒有辦法滿足人力資源管理的這樣一個體系的專業的需求的時候我們必須要有一個配套的措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6099.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6118.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
配套措施我看我們參考日本跟韓國的做法韓國為了要補強整個的國家的這個政策法制的策略規劃能力的不足日本是採取產官學的諮詢委員會也就是說引進了產官學諮詢委員會來作為他的策略規劃的一個智庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6120.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6145.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們知道我們台灣有民進黨智庫、國民黨智庫但是我所了解的這些智庫其實人才還是不過的那我們可能需要仰賴大學可是各大學他們自己有學術的研究發展他能夠配合國家的政策發展也不未必能夠配合得那麼好因為我們的科技部的專業研究計畫他採取的是放牛吃草型的是各自去申請他不是整個整體宏觀策略規劃的 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6146.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6147.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
委員會主席委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6168.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6171.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
政策諮詢審議委員會政策諮詢審議委員會政策諮詢審議委員會政策諮詢審議委員會政策諮詢審議委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6186.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6213.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我們看到我們沿岸人才的管道被封閉住了我們高級文官的人才應該有甲等特考但是我們甲等特考被取消了所以換句話說高級的人才引進的管道已經流失了古代諸葛亮這個劉備要請到諸葛亮才能夠三分天下你沒有高級的人才的引進那麼只是從底下培養上來我們培育人才的規劃在民國88年以前是 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6214.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6214.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6231.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6248.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那以前是進修兩三年我去韓國考察韓國的做法是派遣300個每年派才人300個公務員到國外進修兩三年我們台灣呢是派遣大概三四十個進修三個月到六個月也就是說我們整個人力人才的培育呢是斷層的 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6249.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6249.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6270.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6295.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那當然他找個正規醫師不會找密醫啊我們知道我們現在各級很多機關他處理的是法治業務訴訟業務是法令諮詢法令的一個遺難雜症的處理業務可是他沒有引進法治人才他的這個單位裡面沒有法治直系的人我們以國稅局為例各地區國稅局法治科有八九十個人臺北國稅局有八九十個新北區國稅局也是八九十個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6296.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6298.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
副院長：第11屆第2次全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6314.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6336.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這表示我們全系部跟考試院失職他沒有針對適材適熟去安排規劃適當的人員第二個 我們的研究發展單位我們研究發展單位是需要有非常有策略規劃有智慧的人因此他的學歷至少應該碩士或博士的但是我們的考試院的全系部規劃的這些研發單位的人才可能都只有大學畢業 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6337.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6364.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
高考及格這個外文都不懂你怎麼做研究啊所以因此我們的研發單位是被裁撤的比如說米財政部來講我們的稅制委員會是研發單位它被裁撤啦那它裡面的研發人員是多少人呢沒有什麼博士啊大概都是大學畢業的比較多後點都是碩士因此它的研究能力是不足的也就是我們自己不研究沒有發揮研究能力然後又不引進人才又不培育人才那我們國家怎麼進步啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6365.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6379.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
我們國家怎麼進步啊大家只是想要看到結果但是你沒有投入應有的資源啊所以因此我們人力資源的管理是出了問題的所以我是建議我們應該參考韓國的做法韓國是每個部會成立一個研究院 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6380.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6381.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6395.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6396.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6418.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6419.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6440.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6440.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這以上的一個小小介報 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6469.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6490.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
複印剛剛委員這個先進提到的我們考試院應該有一個策略規劃的白皮書至少每兩年或三年要編一本白皮書做一個中長期的一個策略規劃那做一個前瞻的規劃讓他的一個政策方向更加透明同時我們也可以讓我們了解他是怎麼在培育延攬人才怎麼樣來試材試手以上建議 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6493.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6517.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝謝陳教授各黨團所推薦的學者專家都已經發言完畢現在進行審查小組委員的詢問首先請吳委員春城發言主席各位各位我們的立法院的同仁還有我們的學者專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6520.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6545.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
今天我代表臺灣民眾黨要發表對於考試院考委審查的一個意見我要講的主題叫做公務員的平庸之惡公務員的平庸之惡即將回鍋的美國總統川普任命科技巨頭馬斯克 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6547.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6576.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
要成立政府效率部馬斯克計畫把聯邦政府428個機構精檢到剩下99個三檢調四分之三認為四分之一政府就可以運作削減政府的浪費 簡化行政的機構估計聯邦的200萬員工有一半要被裁員不曉得會不會真的做 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6578.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6605.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
但是至少這是一個思維的方式我不曉得我們的考試院現在是怎麼想考試院是政府的人力資源部門我來自企業界非常清楚所有的組織改革都是從人資部門開始人資部門規劃策略規劃整個我不曉得我們的考試院有沒有這個功能看起來是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6607.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6635.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
如果考試院是一個老太隆重的部門那就不用期待中華民國的政府是一個優秀聰明的管理團隊了政黨輪替或者新任總統的天眾英明都只是一時的36萬的公務大軍才是政府的主力但是我們的公務員啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6637.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6664.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
要經過高普考國家考試這都是我們過去很羨慕的很難考啊很難考那考過高普考真的是百中選一啊很難考但是大家都一句話人在公門好修行到了公務人員我看了很多說他差不多兩年啊就被消磨殆盡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6667.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6693.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
熱情消磨殆盡、意志消沉就開始在修行了、念經是什麼造成的?我們考試院應該好好地去想這些問題不要每天在那邊修法其實我懶得去講那些該怎麼做因為太多文章了研究文章、漢牛衝動但是事情都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6695.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6724.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
原來的我要引述一個20世紀的一個很有名的政治哲學家漢納漢納·厄蘭他是一個他1906年生1975年過世了是一個影響了20世紀還有21世紀的政治倫理的研究者他的作品 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6725.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6754.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
含非常廣泛的主題但最出名的就是處理權力和邪惡的本質以及政治還有直接民主、威權、極權主義的作品它最為人所銘記的論點就是解釋為什麼一個普通人會成為極權主義體系中的演員配合演出其實不是因為人惡而是因為平庸之惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6755.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6777.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
他說:「平庸之惡是一種不思考、不傾聽人類道德的心靈,也不去思考對於整體社會的利弊。這種惡是平庸的,你、我、常人都可能墮入其中。把個人完全同化於體制之內,服從體制上的安排,默認體制, |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6778.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6804.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
本身隱含不道德的行為甚至自己成為不道德體制下不經質疑的實踐者、筷子手憑藉著配合體制的藉口替自己冷漠的行為提供非道德的辯護從而解除個人心理上提倫道德的過錯這就是現代社會體制化下的平庸之惡他認為平庸之惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6807.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6835.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
集體而言可能大於極端之惡因為這種集體的不去思考只去配合體制忽略了漠視人類心靈深處對道德體驗所犯下的罪行更為嚴重我想他這一段話非常值得我們的深思我到了立法院以後我才深刻體會到我們政府的平庸之惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6836.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6859.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
平衡到什麼程度20號前幾天我在前瞻就在這裡在審查前瞻預算的時候我質詢國發會主委沒來是他督導的業務結果他沒來他跑掉了找了副主委來我我跟他講說我問說 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6869.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6892.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
這個前瞻預算高達八千四百億已經是最後一期了最後一期沒兩年一期那快要花完了我們的政府前瞻目標達成了嗎我要他評分你把這個我們的執行要十年的前瞻計畫你們督導單位認為幾分他說不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6898.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6921.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
因為根本就沒有目標根本就沒有前瞻都是在解決眼前的事情用一種特別預算用舉債大家只是更臃腫永遠是人手不夠永遠是錢不夠養出了一個大胖子來最後需要養分就是養這個大胖子 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6922.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6951.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
三分之的資源都是他自己消磨掉真正投入的有什麼前瞻我看到了太多的這種事情我舉了一個例子臺灣未來30年最嚴重的問題是什麼這不是前瞻應該要前瞻要問國發會啊國發會你答不出這個問題嗎未來30年最重要是什麼就是人口的問題嘛人口的問題天翻地覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6953.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6955.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
臺灣接下來50年會減少900萬人將近1000萬人減少欸我們的所有的勞動這影響衝擊的層面有多廣 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6968.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6986.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
這是今年10月17號國發會公佈了但是公佈完其實他已經拖了兩個月本來8月應該公佈他都不敢公佈因為問題變得嚴重我們的少子化提早的15年每年我們投入少子化的預算要1200億 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6988.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7017.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
1200億一直投一直投結果還本來預估是2057年才會破10萬這次的預估是2040年就會破10萬那你每年1200億這個錢是怎麼花掉的不需要檢討欸沒有人在檢討欸要發掉明年再重編這個是我們政府的運作教育不一樣啊少子化少子化是現在才知道的嘛20年前就知道了然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7019.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7047.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
現在然後呢一直開大學一直增加大學然後現在呢就一直關大學一直關大學你知道公務單位都有一個思維叫做慣性要開的時候就一直開一直開反正都不管任何原因就自己開要關了後就是一直關一直關一直關都沒有別的方法你知道嗎這種慣性往前就一直往前往後退就一直往後退這是我們培養出來的公務人員嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7049.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7077.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
這是我們所做的,如果說只會這樣子,然後導致現在所以呢,我要提到的是所以呢,我覺得啦,這一個實驗室到了我這個就跳過去,我在考試院當中看到考試院是一個冷壓門我看到唯一有心去改革的只有一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7079.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7103.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
就是前考試院長關忠他把考試院炒熱了然後我引述媒體採訪他他想要推動考機法的修訂認為公務人員現在不能大家都做好爛好人他說公務人員兵等不得低於3%結果引起反彈最後陣亡了但是關忠後來問他 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7106.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7107.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
謝謝吳委員下一位我們請蔡育宇委員發言好 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7135.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7161.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
謝謝主席那各位學者專家還有我們立法院的同仁以及各位聆聽的各位貴賓那我想在進行考試院人事審查前的公聽會那我們對於考試院還是有一些基本的一個期待因為考試院是代表著整個國家公務人員任用那以及公務人員前階段的訓練的一個重要的一個機關那這樣的一個憲政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7163.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7191.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
實際上是在中華民國五權憲法的設定之下所以有考試院的一個我們現在的一個制度那基於考試院的制度那也是要有考試委員然後有考試委員會來做出決議那這個會決定到了接下來我們所有考試那以及考試的一些程序啦以及一些時程的一個安排所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7191.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7213.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
基本上在這一次的考試院他在最後一次的院會他過了一個考試院的會議規則那也是點出了說如果院會考試委員沒有考試院長或者是沒有考試副院長考試委員無法成立委員會的時候那要怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7213.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7237.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
所以考試院有通過了一個考試院分層負責的實施要點那這個實施要點也訂定了考試院公文蓋章、印信及簽署的注意事項讓考試院在沒有院長的時候可以繼續運作也就是由三個部會的三個首長全序部部長、考選部部長、保訓會這三個首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7240.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7241.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7257.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7286.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
明顯已經有人違反憲法終成義務在考試委員在考試院沒有考試委員沒有考試院長的情況之下就要趕快通過考試委員的同意權這個東西一定要趕快運作的這個也是我們立法委員應該要有的一個責任不能讓整個考試院就晾在那邊沒有考試院長然後現在這件事已經發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7287.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7312.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
將近已經快半年的時間結果現在才來通過這樣一個權宜措施我覺得這個權宜措施非常的諷刺這個是第一個我要講的那第二個勒畢竟考試院勒它就是在決定整個未來國家的人才的一個訓練那我們在基層實務上事實上我們看到了現在的公務員這個體制勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7315.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7343.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
很難留得住人才尤其是包括建築業這個建築的就是說以及在機關裡面他可能是建設屬於建設業的或者是屬於這個公共工程的這個人才非常的少所以最後涉及到的整個國家的制度裡面為什麼沒有辦法留住這樣的一些公共工程的人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7344.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7365.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
那過去的時候我們知道說軍官、飛官的人才非常難留住在於很多飛官他只要在空軍受完訓練之後他就會選擇離開選擇到民間因為到民間的薪水比較高到一般的航空公司那所以蔡英文在 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7369.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7380.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
當年他後來有指示通過了一個叫做飛行人員、飛官的他的留任的一個獎敘金讓後來飛官的人他有更多的條件他會選擇繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7386.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7408.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
繼續服役那我想這個事實上也要去思考的就是說我們國家是不是對於這樣的一些公共工程類的公務員事實上他們擔了很大的責任但是相對的他們的應該要有的報酬是不是比民間少而且少很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7409.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7417.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那變成說人才是留不住的這是第一個那第二個那如果再講到了說未來這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7420.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7440.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
人才的不足也不只是公共工程類事實上在比方說像地檢署包括檢察官檢察官的整體的人員是不足的包括法院的人員也不足包括社工界社工的人員也嚴重不足這樣很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7441.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7465.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
部門的人才都沒有辦法好好的補足他的責任這個考試院真的是必須要好好去思考要怎麼樣的制度設計讓人才可以留著讓人員可以補足因為你一旦這些人不夠的話你很多業務是無法實施的所以這個是我在提出的一個建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7467.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7468.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7487.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7513.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
這些公務人員他們可以親自養育3歲以下的子女所以我們認為你只要符合一定要件原服務機關同意就可以調任到實際居住的一個機關這個是對公務人員的一個照顧但是實際的運作上我聽到了很多基本上公務人員縱使有3歲以下的小孩他們原服務機關仍然是不同意他轉調到他機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7514.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7516.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
公聽會委員：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7530.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7530.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7549.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7550.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7572.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7587.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
而不是說考試委員常常就是我們同意權行使完後現在考試委員就被處理啊就要人在隊 工作派找到人啊那這個我們會覺得很可惜因為考試委員畢竟他們的會議都在決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7588.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7605.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
整個國家的公務人員的任用我們也希望在考試委員在於通過了人事的同意權之後可以更貼近基層可以更知道整個基層的公務員他們真正的心聲尤其是這幾天新聞都有在報導關於勞動部的狀況事實上也都是涉及到公務員他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7614.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7636.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
在任職期間他們的基本的權利以及他們面對主管的一些管理措施的時候那公務員應該要有怎樣的自我的應該是說要怎麼去適度的做權利的一個申訴或者是主張這個都很重要這些東西我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7638.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7661.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
當然行政機關有責任我們立法機關也是有責任把法律修好但是考試委員畢竟你都是站在公務員的旁邊所以未來要怎麼讓考試委員貼近這一些基層公務員的心聲然後可以把這些心聲如實的轉達給其他的憲政機關然後來做相對的因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7662.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7679.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我認為這個科室考試委員應該要去自我強化也應該要去加強的以上是我提出的我的幾個觀點我們也希望這一次的考試委員在人事同意權行使之後未來他們可以在他們的職務上 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7681.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7685.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
謝謝蔡委員下一位我們請徐巧欣委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7704.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7723.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
謝謝主席也謝謝專家學者們給我們寶貴的意見還有我們在場審查小組的委員以及我們現場的媒體記者朋友首先對於這個考試院我想主要針對公務人員的保障機制來做一個探討 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7724.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7746.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
但同時不釋服的部分要如何的太除也是社會大眾非常關心的一個焦點那考試院掌管了公務人員權序考記等等的問題我們就從最近大家關心的勞動部霸凌事件來掀開我國公務體系當中權勢霸凌的這個遮羞布 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7746.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7775.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
舉例來說在這個昨天吧開了這個考機會的時候那當事人已經加害者已經被免職的情況對方就直接選擇不出席好像我們的政府體系也完全沒有辦法拿他怎麼辦也就代表說在這個機制當中可能是出現一些漏洞的那我想未來的考試委員或許就要針對考機會可能產生出的類似漏洞去做一個補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7776.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7791.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
那所以呢在現在的公務體系裡面因為我們對公務人員有所保障也因此我們看到了非常多的私下的霸凌的現象就誠如剛才吳春城委員所提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7791.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7813.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
許多的公務人員都是好不容易才能夠通過非常艱辛的考試拿到俗稱的鐵飯碗這樣子的一個資格當然沒有人希望能夠離開這樣子的一個位置上面也就是說他們在這樣的課程體制裡面即便遭到主管的霸凌也沒有辦法輕易的離開崗位 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7816.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7837.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
這一點在軍、工、教當中都有這樣的情況我自己本身在國防外交委員會在軍人的體系裡面更是如此有不少因為被不當管教而自傷的案件那他們家人在最後發現的時候已經是為時已晚來不及拯救這些孩子們的生命 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7838.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7854.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
所以現在在2024年的今天我們仍然看到許多的主管然後在霸凌他的下屬而沒有人敢具名投訴因為怕他接下來的考機會被打得一等或是平等的這個情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7856.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7873.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
另外一個具體的案例是前新竹市調查站的主任林維成先生在余政煌跟林智堅的抄襲論文風波的發生的時候擅自的給余政煌的考積打了都是已等的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7874.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7896.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
這不也是透過考機拿來作為威脅公務人員言論自由的工具那去控制基層的公務人員實現政治目的嗎所以類似這樣子的情況我認為考試委員必須要有公平正義的決心來捍衛這些基層人員他們所受到的不公平的對待 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7897.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7919.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
也就是不適任公務人員的汰除跟職務的調換我想這一點是非常重要的所以適任的公務人員我們當然要保障他的權益而不適任的公務人員要如何的汰除也相當的重要再來我們談到適任的公務人員的保障也就是在退休輔助的保障部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7920.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7936.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
通過年金改革之後我們有一個條款叫做每4年要檢討一次所以上路至今差不多也到了該檢討的時候所以我們其實有提出三個建議目前在法案上面經過到的一讀的階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7937.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7965.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
也就是取消所得替代率每年調降的限制CPI成長率達到3%的時候調整月退每兩年檢討一次退伏基金那在這個部分我們會很希望知道考試委員對這三項意見的這個看法因為年輕改革的檢視期間4年的檢討一次時間已經快要到了所以這一點我相信也是我們到時候會著墨在審查的一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7965.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7987.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
然後還有另外在現代的時代裡面數位化AI跟科技的點數也是我們希望能夠達到的目標因為現在的考試越來越多元包含像是我們很多的身心障礙者他們的考試在過去或許是有一些難度的但在現代的社會來說其實越來越方便 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7988.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
8009.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以要怎麼樣去結合日新月異的這些科技讓可能是有這樣子伸展者的考試或者是說遠端的考試能夠在一個既公平又方便又快速的情況之下來完成他們的點試這一點也希望考試委員能夠提出一些革新的想法 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
8010.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
8031.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
還有很多公務人員期待能夠有公會的改革這一點我個人也相當的支持但是似乎有一些難度但如果考試委員能夠支持並且去提出詳細的解決辦法的話那就我自己身為立法委員來說呢我是希望有機會看到這樣的革新的理由是 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
8032.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
8057.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
如果公務人員能夠組成自己的工會包含警消等等其實對於像我們剛剛談到的這種霸凌的事件可以透過工會的管道去處理不至於無法發生有一個管道能夠順暢的去解決我認為對於很多所謂的淘汰或是不適服類似的情況有一個疏通的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
8058.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
8082.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
所以如果有考試委員願意能夠想到這樣的革新方案我個人也會覺得是比較適任的另外我們也要談到約聘僱人員的權益以及薪資問題在現在的政府體系裡面因為我們的公務人員當然有很多的退休金的保障所以看到不管是中央政府或是地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
8083.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8083.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
副院長及考試委員同意權案 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8100.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8127.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
那他聘任的原因、方法、理由是什麼其實我們並不知道那再來就是普通的約聘過人員他沒有所謂的勞動保障的這個他沒有公保的權益他只有勞基法的這個保障權益那能不能夠在很多的這個權益上面有更積極性的保障我覺得這一點呢考試委員可能也要來協助注意好 舉例來說我自己在國防外交委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8129.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8130.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
國防部分為軍職人員及約聘僱人員軍職人員是放93軍人節假 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8149.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8175.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
而文職人員因為同一個單位的性質他也可以跟著一起放九三軍人節的假而約聘僱人員呢他只能在五一勞動節以及九三軍人節二選一那二選一的問題會發生什麼事呢就是如果他沒有放五一勞動節的假他身為一個勞工他應該要能夠領到加班費 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8176.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8196.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
可是在這個二選一的情況下其實他是不費給加班費的所以這就會出現在政府體系裡面其實有一些約聘僱的勞工他的被保障的問題所以我想考試委員不只是保障公務員而是整個在公務體系裡面的人員都應該被列為保障的一環 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8198.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8210.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
最後我想要提到專業分工以及技術能力的考量不同的考試科目或是技術該如何檢討最後一點時間我想跟大家分享一下最近我也在質詢的一個題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8212.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8238.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
比方說我們都知道現在在台灣資安非常的重要像是以國安單位來講資訊安全算是我們在國家安全的第一防線尤其是在兩岸的灰色衝突之下其實如何能去做好資訊安全對我國的前瞻性來說是非常重要的所以我國一定也在國安單位來說必須要禁用很多的資安人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8239.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8246.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
但是我們目前的考試在針對AI人才的部分資安人才的部分還是什麼跑3000公尺然後體能測試就類似這樣的數科考試一樣都是用這種所謂國安局的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8258.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8273.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
可是我們就想今天我們要招募的人才是他可能是動腦的他可能是一個駭客他可能是他學有專精但是他的體能不好那這樣的人才難道我們就把他排除在外了嗎所以根據 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8274.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8289.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
實事根據我們現在國家的需求我們對於考科的這個寬限度跟彈性應該要與時俱進的去做出變化才能對我們的國家那招募進來的公務人員能夠有更多對國家具體的貢獻 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8291.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8310.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
所以簡單跟大家報告以上大概就是我在進行這個考試委員包含院長跟副院長的審查的時候我主要會關注的幾項焦點謝謝各位好 謝謝許委員接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8313.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8326.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
主席、在場的學者專家代表、我們本會的委員我想今天我們來進行考試院院長、副院長、考試委員的公聽會首先我們來回顧一下考試院的任務 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8327.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8348.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
我們很清楚地看到,考試院從公務人員的把著考選,到訓練分發,以至到機關的考機跟簽調、申簽,以及退休後的退服,和這段時間的權力保障,分別由考試院、有考選部、有詮釋部、有保訓委員會,來分別給予公務人員這些必要的照顧。 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8349.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8373.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
但是呢,我們來看一下,那到底這幾年來公務員待遇好嗎?我們看一看從公務員的報考數、公務員考試的報考數、國家考試、到考率跟錄取數都降低了這幾年我們常看到新聞媒體報告國家考試、公職考試報考人數下降這十年來呢,下降了大減了,夭折 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8374.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8395.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
大減了56%那這麼少人的報考,報考率又如何呢?報考率只有過去的6成至於很多的考科、很多的機關沒辦法足而入取有53個類科無人入取而且多半是第3等跟第4等考試的工程類職缺 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8397.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8411.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
如果我們對公務員的保障給他的待遇足夠那為什麼有志於公務生涯的生力軍越來越少呢我們看到以工程類來說什麼問題出現了好就以土木專業技能來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8413.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8438.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
包括這些其他類型有業務重、待遇不如民間以致離職率增加民間企業人才的需求增加開出了高薪公務員心智無法拉抬以致於人才流失、待遇差第二個工時長一個新聞報導指出地方政府的主計處加班時數驚人每人每月加班將近17個小時幾乎要天天加班 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8439.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8454.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
另外,業務繁重,也有地方政府衛生局的長照科,去年爆發離職潮,24位公務員5人離職俗稱公務員是鐵飯碗,考上了大家都願意待到退休,為什麼要離職?這些重重的問題不止 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8458.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8474.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
公職人員是如此,那麼國考的專業人員如此呢?我沒有看到了其實我們已經偵辦了三次的護理師考試來彌補護理師人才的缺口考選部為了補足這些專業人員的考試缺口,降低門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8475.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8499.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
那麼呢就被人家質疑說是不是因為這個缺人所以我們要把標準放低其實呢不只是無數考上的護理人員他的職業率下降缺額增加2023年新增第三次而且呢還明擺著說要降低難度真的公職考試公職人員還有專精人員考試不再那麼失香了嗎我們除了因應社會的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8502.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8529.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
我們調整考試的內容或錄取名額的同時怎麼樣讓更多的人才願意留下來為國家服務為社會服務呢我們來看一看有哪些做法好這是我們也是看到媒體的報導為長期人力不足的偏鄉和公務員提供社宅一般提到社會住宅好像都是給經濟弱勢者社會上比較需要照顧的人曾幾何時在偏鄉服的公務員大家看一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8529.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8556.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
在綜合有個錦銷的設宅是全國首座給基層的錦銷入住優先給兩線以下一星以下的基層錦銷那麼難道這樣對長期人力不足的單位及偏鄉公務員提供設宅這會是考試院的業務嗎這會是規定在公務員服務法嗎不對公務員服務法裡面都是行政機關對於公務員的倫理規範跟醫師法、律師法一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8557.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8584.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
早來早去就一個中央公教人員福利互助辦法當中有略略提到公務人員宿舍部分但是這似乎也不是考試院的權責那考試院到底主觀什麼法令呢我們來看一下考試院在公務人員的福利部分他沒有辦法去下手但是呢最近非常關注的就是基層公務員包括司法人員的過勞現時的公務員的加班規範哪裡有呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8585.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8606.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
公務人員保障法第22條的第1項、第2項裡面提到了原則上要給予加班費補休假,另外是要獲考核跟獎勵但是現代人的工作觀念他寧可要休息,他不願意要領你的加班費尤其是在有些單位要實施輪班輪休的業務性的特殊的像警消、醫護 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8607.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8631.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
那麼為了保障公務員的健康權那麼這些在公務人員保障法當中有說要給予適當的評價那其他的公務員有沒有設定加班的上限呢最近一些我們傳出來的不幸事件這些基層公務員因為工時太長不生副課或者選擇走上悲劇的這條路我們看一看有什麼辦法可以來彌補呢有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8633.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8660.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
這個就是我們公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法是來自於公務人員保障法第19條當中對公務人員安全的防護衍生出來難道這樣的辦法我們可以滿足嗎我們看一看在國外有所謂的離線權在2017年法國有推離線權勞工在非工作時間可以不回覆訊息不受懲罰有沒有覺得非常眼熟啊這次的不幸事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8661.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8661.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8689.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8690.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
公聽會：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8708.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8735.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
執行職務因他人行為遭受身體或精神不法侵害之預防嚴格來講這應該是公務員執行公務的時候對外界的外於他的對象執法對象對他的侵害但是在職場上自己的主管對你的精神的傷害有沒有在這個保障的範圍內呢我會根據如此來申請職場霸凌的救濟呢事後的救濟向機關提出申訴向保訓會提出再申訴甚至到行政訴訟 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8737.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8758.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
其實我想現行的機制都不足以面對現在日新月異 層出不窮的職場管理不當對待的問題那麼怎麼樣建立完善的事前防備機制呢 我們來看一下現有的公務人員保障法 它裡面大概就講了幾條 一一唸給大家聽19條就是職業 就是我們公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法的法源 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8759.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8786.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
然後呢,第20條提到了我們對於公務人員所在的場所應該防止他的侵害那麼這也是我們後來消防員退避權的一個來源第21條提到說如果對他的防護有瑕疵他的精神或健康受到損害的時候可以申請國家賠償以及對22條那麼如果涉及訴訟還要給他一些法律上的協助從這裡來看,非常的消極,都是事後就計 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8787.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8807.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
那麼唯一呢我們可以看到有點類似的安全及衛生防護辦法當中第21他提到了重覆性的工作長時間的工作或是說因他人對你的身體或精神不法的侵害其實嚴格來講與其事後處理我們應該事前預防與其不只要處理環境的風險我們也要處理包括職場管理的霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8808.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8833.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
好 那為什麼公務員比較起一般民間機構是比較容易遭到霸凌嗎什麼原因我們來看一下就是公務員考機法啦我們看看公務員考機法有沒有辦法把上對下的不當管理行為納入考機呢公務人員考機法第6條寫阿他說除本法令有規定外考列丁等呢必須要有這些情形能考列丁等譬如說像不聽指揮、迫害機率毫無疑問的這是上對下的一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8834.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8857.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
一種干預跟指導第二種代護職守基研公務我們看到了在一些不幸事件的公務員就是被上級認為他要現實交出他的成績所以我們看到了目前公務人員的考機法當中其實只有賦予給主管隊部署上對下考核逼迫造成他精神壓力來源的這些法源但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8858.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8875.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
對上不服從就可能獲得不利的考機但是長官對部署的不當行為有沒有可能透過考機來反應呢所以說今天我們看到這裡我們不禁的要提到整個考試院過去的業務相當的多相當的穩定但事實上面對日新月異我們目前公務機關職場的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8877.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8898.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
為什麼越來越少人對於公職考試有興趣對於現身國家服務機關有熱忱是因為我們是不是要更精準的去預估我們用人的需求在專技高考的當中讓中央跟地方合作讓國考選才能做到是才是所而且要如何建立一個友善的職場環境提高強化公務人員的留任意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8899.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8920.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
不只是行政部門要提高對公務人員待遇和他的其他的宿舍等福利那麼在我們相關的法制面上考機法或以及相對應的立法的一個必要性我們是覺得未來的考試院應該積極的有所作為 以上好 謝謝鍾委員下一位請劉許廷委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8923.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8941.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
謝謝主席這個開始我們從考試院的定位開始談起這個考試權是中華民國獨立的憲政權利之一考試院作為國家最高考試機關掌理考試、公務人員、權序、保障、撫恤 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8942.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8959.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
退休及公務人員認免、考積、集奉、升遷、褒獎等等法治事項考試院為公布門人事法治的最高主管機關肩負著健全文官法治激勵公務人員士氣強化行政中立 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8960.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8976.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
若實文官倫理價值之責任也執掌全國專門職業及技術人員職業資格之衡建以及人力資源管理規劃與調解同時統籌辦理公務人員的保障以及培訓相關事宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8977.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
9005.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
他的目標當然是要促使公務人員勇於認識並且推動公務人力的素質可以與時俱進很遺憾我們現在的社會公務員面對三大不幸我們希望藉由公聽會的場合做出闡述也希望考試委員做好準備現今的公務人員人事制度經過多年不斷的修改以及這幾年政府執政風格批變的影響之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
9006.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
9015.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
從社會大眾曾經認知可以讓大家達成安居樂業的鐵飯碗卻讓現代的公務人員變成忍受三大不幸的犧牲者 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
9016.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
9037.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
第一個不幸叫做政府的拋棄民國105年蔡英文總統左手推動軍公教退休退府制度的所謂改革並成立年金改革委員會交由時任副總統陳建仁及時任行政院政委林萬益辦理修法事宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
9038.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
9058.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
審查後行政院宣稱每一年可以為年改公務人員的退伏基金省下400億元加上每年100億元的挹注可以讓基金做到延後破產但是我們要在這裡強調行政院卻忘記了照顧公務員本來就是國家的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
9059.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
9075.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
年改基金預注的錢和省下來的錢其實全部都是從當初承諾給公務員的退休保障下面苛扣下來的公務員一輩子為國家服務到了最後退休卻被逼得要自立自強 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9076.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9094.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
自給自足同時老保基金也面對了入部付出的破產問題同樣也有改革的需求然而政府惡化不說用撥補1300億元的方式並且宣稱撥補也是改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9095.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9121.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
公務員為國家奉獻一生卻落得雙標的犧牲者慘成為棄子而我們的國家政府不僅毫無憐憫還沾沾自喜當然這樣子的一個後果嚴重的影響公務機關的新陳代謝以及人才的世代交替此乃我國公務員的第一不幸第二不幸是更慘的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9122.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9146.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
在審查年金改革的時候行政院為了推動修法動用了仇恨宣傳以行政院的身份散播圖卡、文宣以及公文聲稱年金不公不義把所有奉公守法、入力從公將一生都奉獻給國家的退休軍公教用一句話打成了不公不義的肥貓 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9147.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9165.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
一個人對國家忠誠一生卻在晚年變成不公不義的代表這樣子的社會氛圍不只造成了公務員跟國家之間的裂痕甚至間接的呼喚整個社會對於公務人員進行慘無人道的批鬥 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9166.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9186.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
一個民主自由的國家卻出現獨裁者遂行己意而煽動鬥爭用撕裂社會的方式推動法案這不僅是我國憲法的危機這個社會的批鬥也成為國家公務人員的第二不幸 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9188.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9216.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
公務員在忍受社會的批鬥以及政府的拋棄兩大不幸之後當代公務員特別是基層的公務員還要忍受第三個不幸那就是職場的霸凌民進黨過去一當領政公務機關充斥著只有黨議而沒有國家的官僚文官行政中立的精神屢屢遭受蠶食驚吞甚至造成破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9218.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9246.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
部分的文官善於向上經營而間接形成了仗勢欺人耍官威的惡行基層苦不堪言最近發生的悲劇一個勞動部的科長可以在沒有任何職務經歷與歷練的情況之下不知為何破格升任分署長而勞動部上下居然沒有一人可以提出合理的解釋 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9247.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9263.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
而在這位破格提拔的分署長的領導管理之下一年半下來勞動部北區分署離職率接近九成員工長期承受長官官微的精神虐待整個分署 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9263.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9284.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
主宰高壓的工作環境之中基層公務員投訴無門甚至間接的罹患各種精神相關疾病最後導致有人走上絕路整個官場生不如死職場的霸凌在近年竟然成為我國公務員的第三個不幸 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9286.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9301.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
三大不幸的問題如果沒有辦法改變我們剛剛有非常多的委員跟學者專家有提到我們應該徹底的檢討並且改善公部門的待遇才能夠持續的吸引人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9301.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9319.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
加強我國的文官體系的素質但我就問如果這三大不幸政府的拋棄社會的撕裂以及職場的霸凌這三個核心問題如果沒有改變的契機我們如何討論待遇我們如何吸引人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9320.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9336.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
考試院作為公務人員人事制度最大的憲政機關要替我們的國家徵才任用它不只需要設定公務員的徵選標準也應該保障公務員的權利多年來考試院受到廢考間的輿論壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9337.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9360.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
行政院的人事總署也漸漸的取代考試院的諸多功能在這一次新任考試委員的審查之中考試院能不能好好的展現自己的憲政角色好好的落實自己的憲政功能這不只是全體公務員引頸期盼的目標也是建立我國公務員健全文官法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9361.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9390.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
激勵公務人員士氣強化行政中立落實文官倫理價值的重責大任同時我也希望因應時代的變化我們的文官體系不應該再墨守成規而是看到由考試院帶動能夠真正與時俱進的改革我們人才的選訓、任用以及考機的制度有沒有大幅變革的可能呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9390.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9405.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
在當代萬事透明的情況之下我們能不能透過制度跟政策的修正改變公務體系長久以來被人們認為保守而封閉這樣子的一個職場文化 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9406.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9422.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我們能透過什麼樣的方式與時俱進的修正去避免職場霸凌的悲劇持續的存在並重複的上演本期在這裡嚴肅的期待考試院各個新任委員有想法有行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9423.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9444.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
我想透過後續的答詢針對這三大不幸我們希望聽到各考試委員更多的說法跟想法解決這三大問題才有辦法進一步的討論待遇的改善權益的保障跟人才的吸引以上 謝謝好 謝謝牛委員下一位我們請沈博洋委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9448.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9465.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
謝謝主席那謝謝這個各位專家學者那謝謝還有這個與會的委員那這個呢我知道一個人是10分鐘但我應該用不了那麼久的時間因為我覺得這個事情也相對來算單純那當然第一個我剛剛的想法就是說呢在 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9466.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9471.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
副院長、副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及副院長及 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9487.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9509.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
但是我先撇開這一點來講我先說一下就是我們對於考試委員的想像其實我覺得有一點這個人民享受的一個落差怎麼說呢我先講立法委員我們有立法委員有考試委員有監察委員我就講立法委員就好了如果我們只從字面上來看立法委員的專業那是立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9510.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9525.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
如果是這個樣子的話,照理說我們所有的立法委員要有法律專業沒有法律專業現在就可以回去了,不可能嘛其實立法委員照理說他的專業不應該只在立法比如說我們這邊有蔡委員、牛委員、賴委員都是區域立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9526.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9543.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
區域立委有非常豐富的選區的經驗他那個選區的經驗會讓他知道第一線在法律執行的時候到底有什麼缺乏有這個缺乏這個經驗才可以協助立法委員去提出相關的立法政策所以如果說我們只從字面上來解釋這個立法委員的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9544.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9568.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
一直用立法專業來討論立法委員適不適任這聽起來會有點奇怪其實重點是他有沒有專業的幕僚他有沒有好的助理以及他有沒有重整事情的能力所以像我剛剛講的如果在區域上面有非常豐富的經驗這就是政治經驗這個政治經驗會協助到一個立法委員去做一個好的修法工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9569.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9595.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
不分區的特色就是不是以區域為主是以專業為主所以如果回過頭來我們來講考試委員的話考試委員顧名思義如果我們就執著在考試這兩個字以及我們把考試院的業務全部攤開來然後去講這一個專業的話這其實我不覺得是一個非常正常去討論考試委員的一個正確的方向考試委員的政治專業其實非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9595.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9613.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
就像剛剛蔡委員提到的我們今年在這一個如果我沒記錯的話應該是在8月的時候吧我們那時候去通過的8月31嘛這個考試院會會議規則嘛這個規則其實是一個立法權到底有沒有侵害到考試權的一件問題但它其實是一個政治問題這個政治問題對我來講就是考試委員有沒有這樣的一個專業去應對這樣的一個政治問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9619.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9645.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
如果他沒有這些經驗的話不管是在文官體系的經驗還是他在學界的經驗這些經驗其實都可以協助到去升任考試委員這樣的一個業務不然的話如果按照剛剛我聽到有一些說法把它套用到不管是立法委員還監察委員我說真的我在台灣應該找不到什麼相關的人才可以來做這些位置但我不相信這是一個真正去審查的重要的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9646.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9662.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那我回過頭來呢 如果說我們今天真的要去看這一個考試院業務的一個專業我們可以看到這一個呢 這一次被提名的這一個院長周鴻憲還有副院長許書祥 這兩位候選人他們過去在考試院的時間其實非常的長 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9664.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9684.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
所以他的專業包含權序我看到有在考選部也有在保訓另外幾個委員他們其實都有參與國家考試跟公務行政非常相當的一個資歷我想說這些資歷我不認為這是最重要的點但這個資歷大概可以讓他在升任委員的時候可以比較磨合期變得比較短 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9685.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9707.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
但公視磨合期比較短這件事情不足以讓我們認為說這個人就升任考試委員所以我倒過來講我認為整體的一個公部門的一個服務的經驗還有他的文官資歷這兩件事情我認為是重要的那接下來就是我們這一跟專技考試有關的我們剛剛看到幾位專家學者也有提到就是跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9707.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9733.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
專技證照相關的資歷這個我就不多說我個人是非常的贊同那這種背景的多元因為畢竟它是合議制所以呢在 譬如說站在立法院我們很多的委員的專業其實都不一樣大家都會根據自己的專業來發言然後最後透過合議的一個方式來決定事情雖然我們是一個簡單多數學的一個地方但以考試院來講考試院的一個合議制它的確多元的需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9733.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9763.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
比這個個別的我們剛剛講的這個人到底有多麼的專業這一個人到底有沒有跟這個業務有關其實沒有那麼大的一個關係所以在這邊我反而是更贊成剛剛我記得應該是呂老師提到我覺得就是因為他們在文官體系待得久以及他們有政治的專業所以譬如說針對我們這陣子的一些霸凌相關的案件又或者我們對文官體制要怎麼改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9763.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9784.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
其實應該有一個剛剛講2050應該是2030幾年還是2040幾年他應該有一個長期的規劃我認為這才是一個政治人物應該要做的事情那如果說他今天有一個長期的規劃不管是他想要動總人額還是說他認為說這個裡面的任免的這個體系應該要怎麼做這至關重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9785.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9810.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
我記得在2013年那個時候這個國防部那時候發生爆發相類似案件的時候我們那時候最擔心的就是國防部裡面有這個所謂的士官長這樣的一個文化這個文化他在那邊他也不走你也動不了他然後在那邊當土皇帝這其實會造成很多體系上的疑問而國防部當時遇到的問題其實也就是我們在各個行政部門都會遇到的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9810.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9836.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
而考試院尤其是在權序跟保訓這兩個業務上面他除了可以做激勵跟懲罰之外更重要的事情是他要怎麼去設計這個未來的體制這個未來的體制就跟他的文官的經驗跟他甚至政治的經驗有高度的相關所以我剛好有聽到說這個是不是他們有政黨的背景這件事情我認為這其實並不是那麼的重要對我來講有政黨的背景它不是什麼壞事 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9837.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9863.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
有政黨的背景表示他今天在政治上的經驗比較足夠不是嗎更不要講說我還特地去看了一下翻了一下資料我就發現第8屆是這個邱創煥他有當國民黨副主席第9屆這個徐水德也是國民黨秘書長第10屆的姚家文是民進黨的主席11屆關忠是國民黨的副主席12屆的吳景麟是國民黨的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9864.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9890.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
所以這個看起來好像也不是很影響他們的專業不是嗎也就是說他們作為一個這一個考試院的這個院長在當時所提出的這個願景跟想法我不覺得會因為他的一個政黨的傾向去影響反而是我們知道他的一個譬如說他有一個政他以前任過黨職又或者說因為他的政黨的傾向我們更了解譬如說他是偏左派還是偏右派 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9891.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9892.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9906.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9931.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
所以我覺得這件事情可能並不是我們需要考量的那最後呢這個你剛剛其實有提到我剛剛有稍微因為剛有提到鄧家基那我稍微去看了一下我去搜尋了一下我就發現雖然他在專書上面雖然我認為這個專業不重要但我認為在專書上面他的確按照剛剛這個專家學者的意見看起來比較少但我剛剛搜了一下他有蠻多期刊論文的 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9931.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9949.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
所以我覺得這可能是因為搜尋引擎上的一些失誤所以可能發生這樣的一個疑問那最後我要講一下就是對於這一次的這個案件就是霸凌相關的案件變成是大家政治上非常重要的一個關注點那 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9949.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9977.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
的確除了我們剛剛講體系上的問題之外其實職場霸凌現在在台灣的社會原本就是一個寄存的問題那跟我們以前學校在處理校園霸凌其實也非常的類似那有沒有辦法從這一個第一個就是在院警上面我們剛剛講整個文官任職體系我們到底要怎麼去做修正有沒有要怎麼去避免這種土皇帝的產生這是第一個第二個就是呢因為目前我們的設計考積跟懲處是兩個不同的制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9977.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9998.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
那考機是考機,像這一次呢,看起來是走專案考機那專案考機的確也像剛剛有專家學者提到這個當時沒有給這一個當事人發言嘛所以這個程序上有沒有瑕疵而考試院能不能針對這一點的做更清楚的一個立場這其實是非常重要的那至於呢,如果先是走到懲處這條路的話那懲處這條路說真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
10000.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
10025.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
這個就是已經是往法院那一個方向決定了那並不是我們可以去動到的但是這兩條路徑足不足以解決我們現在的問題我自己也是打一個問號但我們也不希望我們去設計更多的制度來跌床駕屋那到底我們在這個未來上面我們的考試委員們能不能夠想出一個比較有創意的方案我個人是非常的期待那我就不多講了我就大概簡短發言到這邊 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
10026.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
10054.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
好 謝謝省委員接下來請賴世保委員發言謝謝主席 各位先進我針對這次的提名我想當然在總統府這邊執政黨這邊都希望能夠全部通過啦齁但是在我們在野黨監督的立場我覺得要全部通過真命啦齁首先我要談到從程序的一個過程來看的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
10057.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
10083.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
這個賴總統明明是一個少數總統國會是少數國會可是在提名的過程請問有沒有尊重國會啊他就拉夫式的找了國民黨的一個然後找了跟這個民眾黨很接近的一個一個是邱文燕一個是鄧家基他就把這兩個塞進來他就認為說哎呀你們看到這兩個要過所以其他要給我過有這麼簡單嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
10086.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
10114.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
我覺得我們這次的審查一定會非常的嚴格更何況賴總統在挑這兩個人的時候我就請教賴總統有沒有跟國民黨那邊打過招呼有沒有跟民眾黨打過招呼基本的一個禮貌有沒有還是就是拉夫式的直接拉夫就過來了 塞在這裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
10116.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
10122.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
所以按照民主的運作我們重視的是程序正義 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
10124.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
10148.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
賴總統這次提名忽視了現在的整個的一個民主運作大家各政黨的一個實力那就是他雙少數少數總統少數國會還滿幹硬幹自己愛怎麼提名就怎麼提名那他當然可以講說我提了同意不同意是你們立法院的事情這樣子好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
10149.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
10173.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
這是第一個我要提出來的實力的地方那第二個我們幾位包括院長、副院長幾個被提名的委員要思考一個問題考試院長期以來大家認為這是盲腸院跟監察院一樣盲腸院你不覺得考試委員現在已經變成被酬用的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
10175.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
10181.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
他的職權一點一滴的被人事種族所侵蝕了他都不敢講話 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
10183.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
10206.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
講最簡單的好了在年金改革的時候最應該講話的就是權需部阿他敢講嗎他最後都不敢講阿完全行政院要一手包辦所以在年金改革的過程裡面你可以看到結果改完的結果你說我要贊讀我要贊阿結果現在過去高考高普考錄取率9.6%很難考喔現在呢17% |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
10213.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
10221.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
榮譽度是過去的一倍以上很清楚的就可以看得到大家現在不太願意來當公務員啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
10225.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10250.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
為什麼這個樣子所以第二個問題所有的考試委員你們在下個禮拜備詢的時候要針對這些問題要告訴全國百姓你們怎麼樣在沒有廢掉考試院之前怎麼樣捍衛考試權不要一點一滴的被行政院的人事總署所整個吃掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10251.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10272.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
第3個我們看到我敢說目前的文官體系是逐漸在崩壞當中最近每天在鬧的新聞勞動部勞發署的副署長的這個謝宜龍的事件他為什麼可以這樣子這麼憨 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10275.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10296.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
而且總統、院長、部長都道歉了他還遲遲不道歉直到今天才面為親愛的出來道歉靠山很大啊他從專員直接碰執政會計他自己講的執政機就變成一個檢任官勒11指等原來大概6、7指等的一個專員變成11指等的一個分署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10300.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10304.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
就是我們要靠山嘛在民進黨執政之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10305.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10305.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
國務院議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10336.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10359.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
怎麼講 大家好不容易啊十年航船 航船考上公務員一點一滴這樣等啊等啊爬到九十等底下叫見任官十十等以上叫檢任官結果九十等了就等好久啊生不了檢任官等好久啊十十等了就等到死啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10360.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10361.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10379.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10401.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
不僅僅要民進黨而且要賴系的否則你即便是民進黨還分不了一杯羹一天就最好的例子啊他不是賴系的啊到現在為止位置還要不到咧然後看到大家覺得奇怪啊施俊錡怎麼被拔掉呢施俊錡不就是賴清德當行政院長時候的副院長嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10403.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10429.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
怎麼被拋掉對不起那就是我另外講的民進黨執政17年來監軍的現象越來越嚴重施進局就是一個最好的例子當初就是蔡英文把他派到這個賴清德旁邊當監軍當他的副院長你不要給他笑表面上行政院長給你做但是我派一個施進局當副院長放在你旁邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10431.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10455.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這種現象不是只有上面欸你去問問多少部會有多少部會的裡面的首長來跟我解告狀啊苦不堪言啊為什麼一個部會裡面一個單位比如說署裡面開會的時候大家做決議不敢做決議欸要看一個小秘書啊那個小秘書是民進黨派來的那個就進軍 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10457.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10485.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
那個就是 就是號稱是什麼 署長的機要就要看他了 不敢拍板做決定所以 民進黨這17年來 讓文官體系全然的敗壞他的升遷 不再靠你一點一滴的努力上去而是靠你的裙帶關係 看你的標籤 看你的顏色 看你的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10488.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10514.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
謝玉榮就是最好的例子像謝玉榮的案子比比皆是各位監軍化的現象到處可見監軍使得我們的文官體系完全被破壞掉今天老實講我本身也在大學教書我當教授包括立法院界調有20年的時間了如果要當考試委員我寧願不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10516.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10516.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10544.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10572.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
並不算太差但是我剛說過的就是提名的程序讓大家感覺賴清德總統還是有權力的傲慢民進黨政府還是把整個國家當作民進黨的黨家一樣最後一點我再補充一點為什麼說他是一個文官體制的破壞者 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10574.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10602.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
因為行政院署級的首長原來政治任命的從5個改成9個原來都要慢慢爬慢慢爬上去的結果政治任命政治任命就直接就來了就把這些的署長變成一個部長來用那你部長都可以用顏色陳世凱是最好的例子啊他有什麼底子今天的這個何佩珊老總部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10603.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10612.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
他這麼快就離職業嘟嘟後年年了底子太薄了他有什麼歷練老科的助理兼主任還有行政院的副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10613.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10614.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10638.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10638.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
謝謝賴委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10663.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10688.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
我們現在審查小組委員詢問均已發言完畢現在進行最後一個程序請學者專家針對剛才各位審查小組委員的詢問提出綜合答覆由於答覆時間預定30分鐘每位3分鐘請各位學者專家掌握時間首先我們請邱華軍教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10694.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10709.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
主席、各位委員、我們各位學者、專家以及各位理事憲政我想先簡單的答覆一下就是有關霸凌處分處分的問題就我個人在保証會11年的經驗來說那的確 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10713.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10739.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
處罰的程序就當事人的話依照我們行政程序法第102條以及考機法第13條的規定一定要請當事人到場說明如果當事人不願說明也可以提出書面來答詢但這個兩個程序都沒有的話可能會變成重大瑕疵那到了保訓會可能會被撤銷這有這種可能性因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10742.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10764.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
這是一個程式上的保障那第二個實體上的保障至於處分他一次的計二大過免職的話那就看他第一個認定的事實和要件是不是相當該當的話如果含設是該當的話那處罰就依照考積法來一次計兩個大過因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10767.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10772.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
有關重大行政處分必須保留有法律規定考計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10774.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10803.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
明文規定一次基亞大國有它的法定要件總共有7項所以這部分的話就看看當時的事實論定和它本身最後要件是不是該當的問題這是第二那至於提到未來人才就是數位化或者是有關資安這部分的話我個人就是在經驗上因為資安這種人才非常非常難找的確 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10804.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10829.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
本身本身要有證照這個實務經驗的話從高考是找不到這些人才我記得我們的國安會列就是這個職缺列了3年沒有這種職缺不是沒有這種就是沒有人報考根本考不上這個人才第三個就是提到提到有關有關那本身在未來未來在一個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10831.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10855.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
職場上的服務的小時的規定因為在服務法的第12條有明文規定由各機關來定制不過這各機關來定制的時候可能會造成一個落差的問題所以最大的問題就是現在的消防所以消防人員在權益保障委員會經常會到處去陳情因為他本身的工作非常不固定會有這樣的情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10856.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10856.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10873.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10873.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10890.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10915.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
我們現在最公平的就是醫生的電腦測驗即考即評所以如果你本身心臟非常強的話你按下去他可能會通知你說恭喜你你這科已經及格了所以已經達到這種程度所以我們現在的數位法這部分設計慢慢已經提升了好謝謝各位好謝謝邱教授下一位我們請康肇周教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10918.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10920.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
對於剛才像徐委員提到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10922.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10949.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
邱教授也有提到所謂治安或AI的專門技術人員那在我剛剛提出意見的時候也是提到就是說因為科技的進步和社會的需求在這個所謂的專技人員的部分有必要做一個革新那這個部分也是應該要列為考量的那所以這個部分我也非常的贊同 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10950.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10950.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10968.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10969.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
公聽會：第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10994.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10996.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
11009.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
11010.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
11037.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
11037.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
11063.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
11083.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我針對剛剛那個省委員他有一對我本人對那個鄧家基委員他的那個法定資格是不符的狀況他有說到他說可能是我的搜索引擎有問題所以搜索不到那我這邊再重申一遍因為我4年前也發生這種事情啊被那個民進黨委員那混淆視聽啊我說的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
11083.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
11111.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
根據他法定資格是特殊著作及發明而他在文件裡面所提出的只有三篇是特殊著作而那三篇是政府公文書他做的一個業務報告或者他成果展示而他所提的發明而他所提的發明其實是新型專利的而不是發明專利我要再重申一遍因為我四年前已經被那個混淆視訊過一次了那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
11112.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
11136.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
如果你要看他提的其他有期刊的話你可以發現很訝異的是好像沒有一篇他單獨的著作是他以個人名義單獨的著作這也是我4年前質疑某一位已經卸任的考試委員的情形其他都是很多人的合著如果這個也算是特殊著作的話還真的很特殊這邊再做個說明另外剛剛很多委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
11138.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
11163.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
也包括剛剛沈委員他也提到一個我覺得還算蠻合理的他又舉到過去幾個國民黨籍的院長也有他一定的功能這些其實是我要講的就是講周鴻憲被提名當院長的話他到底有沒有這個能力是我很質疑的因為剛剛所提到的邱創煥、徐水德這幾位院長他們的政治輩分在國民黨內是很高的所以他敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11164.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11188.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
那周鋒憲在民進黨內敢嗎?敢對抗拳頭很硬的卓榮泰嗎?他敢嗎?這是我質疑的地方我的印象之中,當時在邱院長跟許院長時代行政院他為了要推動他們的法案我們考試院這邊有另外的看法結果兩院的副院長,行政院的副院長還特別到考試院來跟考試院的副院長聯合召開 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11190.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11215.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
審查會那個是因為考試院院長的政治實力夠他不願意完全聽行政院的所以行政院只好派副院長來聽取考試院的意見這是一個很不同的地方那我再最後再提一點剛剛有很多委員都對考試院的期待過高因為可能同樣道理大家都不看憲法不看法律都以為是考試院的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11216.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11217.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
謝謝貴教授下一位我們請呂益成教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11245.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11273.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
好 謝謝主席我想剛才幾位委員提出的很多的問題可以說真的是經緯萬端幾乎把我們當前或者是整體目前無關制度所碰到的一些操作上、制度上乃至於策略上、發展上的問題都提到而這也正是我個人認為未來在提名人選的詢問以及對於我們考試院定位的時候一個核心的一個議題我們到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11274.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11303.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
是要把重心放在這個個人對於問題的一個看法還是我們還是回歸到整個制度設計上我們期待第14屆考試院院長還有各委員他們如何透過一個憲政組織來發揮他的功能那麼個人就承接剛才我的發言以及綜合委員們的這個意見我覺得還是應該把整件事情從一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11304.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11304.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11330.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11345.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
從民國76年到現在我們的整個人事架構已經這麼多年那是不是應該要對於這樣的一個制度它過去所可能碰到的乃至於在現在的一些議題去做一個整體性的一個檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11346.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11372.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那現在的這個議題我覺得應該是去做優化剛才很多委員都提到很多的人事問題並不是一個單一的個案它可能是一個制度加運作乃至於不同部門包括中央跟地方之間互動的一個部分那唯有考試院才有這樣的憲政高度來做一個通盤的考量可是我覺得更重要的是未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11374.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11390.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
大家對考試院、考試委員包括院長、副院長一定有他的期待那這個所謂的期待不只是在回顧過去或者是只是在對現狀做一些反射性的動作我覺得更重要的一件事情是告訴全民 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11391.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11391.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
副院長及考試委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11410.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11410.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
陳清秀教授發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11432.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11450.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
謝謝主席我補充幾點我想回應幾位委員的高見我覺得的確把問題都看得很清楚我想公務員的待遇確實是不是很理想跟同業、跟市場上有時候沒有競爭力尤其像我們剛剛提的工程人才 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11451.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11479.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
外面比如說水電工人家一個月可以好幾十萬你現在我們微博的薪水就招不到水電工啦類似這樣一個情況也就是說這個市場上的一個延攬人才競爭是比較激烈的那我們的這個目前的這個延攬的這個聯資的聯金的保障是讓公務員覺得說現在雖然待遇不太高未來退休還有一個聯資保 聯金的保障可是我們現在聯金保障把它取消啦 把它打折啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11479.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11480.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
公聽會：第11屆第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11498.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11498.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
副院長：第11屆第2會期 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11524.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11524.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11548.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11571.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
A聘顧人員的薪資待遇的一個結構問題的確我們的法制化比較不足因此很多的行政機關有很大的裁量權這個是可以改善的還有就是這個加班會這個是過去我們立法院有做一個決議說不能夠超過哪一個年度的一個加班會的上限所以導致以公務員加班都不能夠請求加班會這個我們建議立法院應該趕快取消不合理的這個決議還有就是這個這個有關於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11577.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11592.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
這個顏色取向升遷啦,文官體系受到破壞,這個我也聽說過,像有一些檢察體系法官的待遇等等司法機關,也有這種現象,所以很多人啦,這個很多很正派的檢察官法官都離職啦,轉為律師這樣,有這種情況,阿如果剛剛賴委員講的這個情況, |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11596.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11616.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
的確也常常有所聽到這種所以這個恐怕要外部監督的機制啦內部的所長的任用權可能已經濫用啦他沒有選拔選選理能他是選拔聽話的人然後呢這個看顏色來來任用人才這個破壞文官體系是相當嚴重的喔這個我是建議未來應該要外部監督的機制以上 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11618.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11644.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好 謝謝陳教授謝謝各位學者專家綜合答覆的部分我們就進行到此今天公聽會非常感謝各位學者專家以及審查小組委員發表意見各位在本次公聽會針對考試院被提名人之資格審查所發表的精闢見解對於本院所有委員在之後舉行的全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11645.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11666.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
對被提名人的資格進行審查以及院會行使同意權投票都有極大的注意本次會議的發言記錄將依相關規定分送全體委員做參考並列入本院公報記錄成為國會正式記錄再次感謝大家今天寶貴的時間及參與現在散會 |