| IVOD_ID |
16298 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16298 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-36-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-21T08:30:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-21T13:31:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
05:00:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc24e6619f7e9d11f8ad9f551ce5fa921fb104c5adbfed68f733e892494afed5b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:15 - 13:31:00 |
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SPEAKER_22 |
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SPEAKER_22 |
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SPEAKER_22 |
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SPEAKER_31 |
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SPEAKER_22 |
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SPEAKER_22 |
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18067.75596875 |
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18067.89096875 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1815.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1827.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
報告委員會初期委員9人已足法定人數請主席宣布開會我們現在開始開會進行報告事項首先宣讀上次會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1828.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1852.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年11月20日星期三上午9時4分至11時11分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員沈文發會等12人列席委員洪文孟凱等9人列席官員監察院秘書長李俊毅等人主席吳昭吉委員鍾憲報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1855.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1871.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
討論事項、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管不含審計部及所屬收支部分本次會有委員黃國昌等8人提出質詢委員翁曉琳等4人提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二本案令定期繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1873.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1890.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
三、委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關警訴、送交個別委員及本會四、審查會委員針對本日議程所列討論事項之預算提案請於11月25日星期一中午12時前送交本會,預時不予受理宣讀完畢好,那我們現在請問就議事錄的部分有錯誤會議囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1898.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1927.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
沒有的話依數確定接著我們介紹道場委員黃國昌委員、羅志強委員、謝榮介委員接著我們介紹道場官員法務部部長、政部長、內政部政次監、行政院打詐指揮中心指揮官馬次長、警政署署長張榮興 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1930.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1941.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
內政部移民署署長、中署長其餘會籍介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1943.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1948.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
施行後相關執法及配套措施進度及具體成效之檢討專題報告並備諮詢現在進行報告範圍時間3分鐘請法務部長、政部長報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1970.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1989.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天奉邀列席貴委員會就如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐欺集團工具及打詐四法施行後相關執法及配套措施進度及具體成效檢討請代表本部列席報告並被質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1991.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2013.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那有關你那個外籍移工參與詐欺犯罪部分本部發現近來外籍移工參與詐欺犯罪比例攀升嚴防離境或情況不明外籍勞工所使用的金融帳戶或電信門號淪為詐欺工具那本部也督導了抬高監督邀請相關部會進行聯防策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2013.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2026.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那這個有包括加強行政管制臺高監署聯合行政機關從源頭來防堵臺高監自112年7月24日起陸續邀請金融監督委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2028.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2052.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
國家通訊傳播委員會、內政部移民署召開9次會議。另外,加強刑事的查緝防犯外籍移工參與詐欺的犯罪。本會督導抬高檢署,要求各地檢署檢察官對查獲外籍移工擔任車所上游詐欺共犯時應積極溯源追查,有無幕後控制外籍移工的犯罪集團。 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2053.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2077.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那再來就是有關防堵青少年涉詐欺犯罪那這邊我們從宣導面各地檢署機集提供私資及職員協力提升青少年的法律智能從防制面與各部會共同推動預防少年兒童犯罪方案查緝面刑事與行政結合共同嚴防青少年涉入詐欺犯罪那有關於打詐四法施行 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2078.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2105.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
相關的策略作為第一就是打詐四法相關執法的一個進度包括詐欺犯罪、危害防治條例這部分是本部上午應定的法規將積極配合其他機關訂定相關的法規提供法制的一個意見第二洗錢防治法本部有去訂定授權執法有四部目前部分法規會嫌中部法規完成預告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2106.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2124.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
目前在持續進行法制作業。通報法部分有定兩部執法,盡力完成預告,讓持續進行法制作業,刑事訴訟法、特殊強述處分狀態,司法院嚴厲訂定刑事訴訟、特殊強述處分執行辦法授權之外,本部會積極配合相關法制作業。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2125.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2150.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那有關你這個打詐四法消防配套措施那這部分本部已經在113.10.26發文各檢察機關督促所有檢察會要具體求行並適時提起上述嚴懲詐欺犯罪那另外發文各檢察機關督促所有檢察會依詐欺防治條例53條規定善用偵查中審判中的調和解制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2152.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2167.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
另外有任理反起訴為適當的優先命被告向被害人支付損害賠償作為反起訴的一個條件也強制納管、查緝虛擬貨幣及第三方支付詐欺本部會督導、抬高堅實、邀請主管部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2168.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2183.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
來共同延伸、來擬定策略、強化各部會的連結、持續優化的告誡制度。」那具體的成效這部分新法已經有七件了這部分限制的金融賬戶請參列報告資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2185.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2212.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
通報法這部分目前申請調取的流量也471件本部身為打詐國家對承詐面組織的機關仍持續督導抬高監督、帶同檢調機關結合其他打詐國家及成員共同打擊詐欺犯罪以上報告敬請主席、各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝部長那我們下一位請內政部馬次長進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2224.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2242.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
主席、各位委員、先生、女士今天應邀到貴委員會列席工作報告備詢首先非常誠摯的感謝我們委員對於我們外籍工還有青少年對於涉詐議題跟打詐四法相關配套措施的一個關注與重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2243.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2267.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
本部為配合行政院有效遏止我們在詐欺犯罪的一個亂象其中打詐四法經大院通過是國人備受關注及期待的重要法案我們透過各行政機關的互相合作來共同打擊詐欺犯罪所以針對今天委員會所提的內容我們提出專案報告如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2268.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2293.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第一有關於防制移工及青少年淪為詐欺集團工具的部分在移工涉詐的情形自統計我們發現目前以泰國、越南、印尼及菲律賓的外籍移工他的一個涉詐人員的一個數字是為最高的那麼在113年9月前我們目前查獲有711人 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2294.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2315.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那幾乎他是112年全年的數字所以在詐欺犯罪的部分我們有一個上升的趨勢所以在移工的部分我們會是目前在打詐工作所做防範的一個重點那移工從事於詐騙工作其實主要有幾個原因那第一個當然就是同儕之間的一個影響因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2316.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2335.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
移工在社交圈的部分比較侷限所以在同鄉或者是工作夥伴之間會有涉入詐騙的話他就很可能受到影響涉入這個所謂的詐騙集團的利用那第二個就是法律意識比較薄弱對於我國的法律認識不清那也沒有體認到參與詐騙集團或是擔任車手的一個後果 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2339.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2343.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2360.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2377.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們跟包括移民署、包括勞動部我們善用宣導平台來加強對移工本身利用牠的母語文字然後加強網路推波的量能那第二個就是在警民聯繫管道的部分的強化那透過警政署跟地方警政機關的一個聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2379.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2400.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
跟我們的僱主之間形成一個窗口那多管道的跟這個警政單位來反映移工的一個狀態那第三個當然就是我們有查獲移工所涉入的資安案件的部分我們會去做收集及加強這個資安案件的一個情資的收報那來了解它背後是不是有一個集團性的動態來規劃這個相關的應處作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2403.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2424.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那第二個有關於青少年涉詐的部分那青少年涉詐到目前為止我們所查獲的人數大概佔總數的59.06%那是我們在少年涉詐的擔任車手跟人頭賬戶大概是我們在少年涉詐的兩大類型那依照我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2425.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2442.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
的分析目前少年色詐的原因也是因為第一個同儕的一個引誘那第二個當然就是我們在少年的部分他們有經濟上的需求那透過這個詐欺能夠得到比較快的金錢的來源那作為一個變成一個誘惑 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2443.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2465.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那在青少年的涉詐防治的策略那我們在警政單位跟教育部門我們合作包括查緝利用少年犯罪者後方的這個集團那第二個就是說希望能夠透過少年的就業輔導跟管道那跟訴發部合作下架違法的打工訊息那也告 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2466.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2477.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
訴家長在涉詐的賠償應該要做連帶的責任處分讓我們所有的包括少年及家庭都了解到涉詐的後果 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2478.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2506.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那麼警察人員在勤務執行中我們也會關注高風險的對象在這個讓我們的處罰少年能夠降低暴露在詐騙風險的一個機會那另外當然也是利用入校的宣導來強化對於青少年族群的一個部分那對於打詐四法實行之後那本法的這個後續的一些合作那包括說通保法的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2507.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2524.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
會跟我們的通傳會來合作進行網路流量管理的一個建置這部分的預算也在大院審查中希望透過我們建置這樣的一個系統能夠了解到整個追溯詐騙集團本身它所運用的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2525.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2541.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
電子通訊的內容?行事訴訟法有關於強制處分專章的配套,我們也配合司法院及法務部來建立訴訟立稿及系統建制。有關於洗髮法的部分, |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2542.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2568.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們也配合金管會對於目前的虛擬資產服務業的部分還有抒發部對於第三方支付都能夠進行登錄來強化它的一個管理最後我們在詐欺危害防治條例的部分跟抒發部還有金管會合作將網路上有關於詐騙的訊息都能夠降到最低結語的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2569.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2597.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
我們為了防範移工、青少年以及其他容易遭到詐騙、犯罪引誘的族群我們有多項的策略希望透過跨部會的合作跟後續案例的分析來共同打造一個安全安心的社會希望社會各界繼續支持鼓勵來打擊詐欺犯罪的一個產業鏈請示主席因為我有兩個身份所以第二個報告要不要一次報告完 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2598.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2625.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
看那個次長如果您想要講的話就繼續好謝謝不好意思活動有一點不太好還是說就以書面為主就好看委員的意見沒有我都可以都可以好那就就次長您就休息那我們會參考您的書面報告謝謝主席委員提亮那提出書面報告是列席機關如果沒有口頭報告那就請參閱書面 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2629.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2647.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
結婚報告完畢相關書面內容列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2659.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2664.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請我們法務部部長以及司法院的刑事廳廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2676.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2694.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
兩位好憲法法庭針對有關於死刑作出判決以後具體在執行上面接下來要怎麼樣處理都是社會大眾非常關心的問題我之前在執行的時候已經請教過了其中 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2695.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2722.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
針對有關於死刑判決應經各級法院合議庭法官的一致決這個是在113年憲判制第八號的主文當中清楚記載的那這樣的一個判決在實際上面的運作過去這段時間引發相當大的討論我在之前質詢的時候也曾經請教過說世界上到底有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的立法例 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2723.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2748.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那司法院也沒有辦法明確的回覆但沒有辦法啦憲法法庭做了判決以後這個結果就是整個台灣社會我們必須要共同承受那因此在具體的操作上先請問一下刑事廳廳長在憲法法庭做出這樣的判決以後第一審如果要做死刑的宣告的話需不需要一字決需要那如果上訴到第二審 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2750.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2769.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
不管第二審是維持第一審的死刑判決還是第二審把第一審非死刑的判決撤銷改判為死刑判決需不需要一致決需要這樣的死刑判決上訴到最高法院的時候最高法院如果要維持死刑判決需不需要一致決需要需要嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2770.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2795.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那因此對未來的部分在實際上面的運作你剛回答得很清楚現在大家更關心的事情是那37位現在還在牢中的死刑犯要怎麼處理的問題嗎憲法法庭裡面說什麼他說如果不符合主文第6項議旨的部分指的就是判決要一字決 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2796.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2811.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
除非有證據證明各該確定終局判決系以一致決作成以外除非你有證據可以證明都是用一致決作成否則的話檢察總長提起非常上述 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2813.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2835.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
現場法庭的判決寫得很清楚我因為關心這個事情所以我就開始請司法院上一次的時候我就請你們提供一到三審現在37位是不是有一致決當然我們最後鎖定的是在最終審最高法院的判決結果結果你們回給我有兩個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2836.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2857.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
一個部分是七位還有評議部評議部還沒有銷毀的評議部沒有銷毀的你們回給我的書面答案是說你們只是司法行政機關沒有辦法申請越攬評議意見所以只能告訴我說評議部還存著但是你們看不到評議的意見沒有辦法越攬嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2858.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2883.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
但我就覺得很奇怪啊你們書面回覆給我是這個樣子但是我們召委安排到臺北地方法院考察的時候我們事後在臺北地方法院進行座談的時候結果你們的副秘書長就直接講留有七個還有評議部的都有一字訣那你們的副秘書長是怎麼知道評議部的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2884.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2901.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這部分跟委員說明一下那這個部分不是我們去越南那個相關的評議部是我們透過行政管道跟最高法院聯繫他們有回覆最高檢的相關的查詢他們回覆說目前還有六件 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2902.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2927.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
6件欺人的評議部是保留著那目前可以用這個方式來證明是當時的一致決說我用這樣延伸出來這部分是有一致決的以上所以嘛我們法律人就把話講清楚了這已經判刑確定了評議部裡面是不是有一致決社會大眾都很關心你們就要公開大大方方的講 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2929.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2951.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
回給我的函搞得神神秘秘的結果你們本來就知道阿這是一秘密的事項嗎如果這是一秘密的事項的話最高法院讓你們副秘書長知道那不就違反泄密罪了應該是不是阿更嚴重的事情阿是30個死刑犯評議部已經銷毀了現在怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2955.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2974.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那目前如果沒辦法證明是一致決的話那可以由檢察總長來斟酌是否要替這相關的死刑犯來提起非常上訴你說有檢察總長來斟酌現在法庭的判決寫得這麼清楚了檢察總長有不提起非常上訴的空間嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2975.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3004.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
因為非常上就是檢察總長的獨佔這我了解啦 權責上面是檢察總長嘛我們法律人依法論法嘛請你回到憲法法庭的判決平易不銷毀了到底有沒有一字決限於真偽不明你們那天在台北地院的時候講得很清楚不利益是由檢方、由法院這邊來加以負擔按照憲判制的判決程序保障要求最嚴密啊一定要一字決啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3005.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3017.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
沒有一字訣沒有辦法證明有一字訣檢察總長有不提起非常上述的空間嗎如果依照憲判的意思是應該要提起好來接下來請部長針對目前現在處理的狀況檢察總長我看起來30個啊評議部已經銷毀的依法論法 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3030.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3047.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
檢察總長是沒有不提起非常上述的空間提起非常上述了以後依照現判制的判決這個訴訟程序恐怕有違背法令的問題那原判決就要撤銷就要重啟程序了這件事情法務部研議準備好了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3050.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3078.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這部分要不要提起非常上述這還是尊重檢察總長的罪這些檢察總長要不要尊重憲法法庭的判決當然這檢察總長要先判意思對嘛所以我們剛剛講了半天法律人就是依法論法當然是檢察總長的職權嘛檢察總長的職權也不是檢察總長愛幹嘛就幹嘛檢察總長也要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊再不高興再不滿意再反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3079.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3094.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我們活在這個體制裡面就是要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊現在我關心的是檢察總長提起非常上述重啟程序了以後接下來的因應法務部跟最高檢察署這邊準備好沒有這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3099.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3117.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
有關於本部只能做就是有關於那個修法的那個一個部分依憲判意旨來做一個修法那這部分我們那個憲判意旨有提到就是有關於刑法跟那個監獄刑法的修法那這部分我們在不少請你針對問題回答啦不要移轉問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3119.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3135.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
修法以前你還是要按照先判制來做嘛這沒有問題嘛社會大眾現在關心的事情是提起非常上述訴訟程序違背法令重啟程序以後接下來的事情法務部跟最高檢察署準備好沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3137.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3163.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
那這部分審判的事務應該是由司法院來做一個回應那有關你委員提到的槌尋就是本部的因應的部分那當然我們可以做到最高檢查組跟高檢署我們有跟那個最高跟高檢保持橫向聯繫、中向聯繫來密切掌握案件的一個動態嗎沒有關係啦我覺得部長某個程度上面來講啦你的憤記 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3164.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3184.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
有的時候守得很好所謂有的時候守得很好你覺得這個是檢察總長的事情你沒有辦法回答我尊重我尊重但是今天利用這個機會質詢是要讓部長知道可能檢察體系的人包括司法院的人心裡都要做好準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3185.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3205.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
接下來30個死刑的確定判決被撤銷重啟程序了以後所有的成本是這個國家這個社會大家共同來承擔所以我是基於善意才提醒你們接下來的程序接下來可能會造成的衝擊大家準備好了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3206.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3236.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
接下來下一個問題跟今天我們打詐最主要的目的就是要防止被詐騙保護被詐騙的受害人我一直在追蹤IMB的案子IMB的案子從起訴以前我在協助這些被害人現在一審判決出來了那當然除了祖賢、鄭耀峰、張淑芬這兩個人以外其他的人也都被判刑了 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3236.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3249.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
但問題是現在被害者所面臨到的問題是什麼?曾耀峰、張淑芬、顏妙珍這一些人有一些有刑法加重詐欺被搶項競合但最後還是用銀行法不法吸金罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3250.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3267.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
罪責比較高所以想像競合從一種手段都是用銀行法來判但現在問題來了他們現在在刑事訴訟要提起附帶民事訴訟的時候刑事訴訟提起附帶民事訴訟來請教刑事院議員需要繳裁判費嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3268.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3290.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
如果在刑事程序提起負擔民事訴訟是不用繳裁判費但是現在被害人接到了地方法院的裁定接到地方法院的裁定說什麼說他們不能夠提起刑事賦名要他們補繳裁判費不能提起刑事賦名要補繳裁判費這個法律見解從哪裡來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3292.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3318.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這個主要是他到底是直接被害人還是間接被害人情勢訴訟法就有關於附帶民事訴訟的提起有限制在直接被害人嗎目前實務上的見解是直接被害人來來來你說目前實務上的見解是直接被害人來看一看111年啊台灣高等法院法律座談他們最後的結論壓倒性的是什麼壓倒性的我唸給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3320.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3332.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
不以所犯之罪是直接侵害個人法義違憲依照《刑事注重法》487條第一項規定的文義沒有限制是否法義直接或間接受害絕大多數喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3337.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3360.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
法官的見解跟剛剛廳長表示的見解不太一樣民事的那個見解是他以直接被害人為基礎的對嘛那我現在就問題就來了法律人啊法律人自己啊可以有假說、以說、秉說、聽說那在法律人自己的世界裡但我要拜託廳長、拜託司法院跳出來思考的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3361.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3378.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
可不可以回到一般人在意的事情回到被害人在意的事情當我們的法院系統都已經浩浩蕩蕩找了六七十個法官喔找了六七十個法官喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3379.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3404.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
最後大家可以說是絕大多數壓倒性的共識認為不應該限於直接被害人間接被害人應該要把他含掛在裡面但問題是這樣的結論做出來了實際被害人他在地方法院還是面臨到相同的困難他現在面臨到的困難是說我一定要補繳裁判費要不然我不能請求損害賠償 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3407.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3428.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我如果不補繳裁判費接下來會發生什麼事情我不補繳裁判費接下來會發生什麼事情裁定駁回就是一腳把他踢出法院的大門之外嘛你沒有錢繳裁判費裁定駁回但我們現在在討論的是詐騙的被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3431.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3445.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
是詐騙的被害人這樣子司法實務上面的操作符合對詐騙被害人的保護嗎來請教廳長那個跟國元說明一下事實上如果他沒有錢繳裁判費那還有什麼訴訟救助可以申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3446.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3467.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
你還要他再繞一個路然後再去處理訴訟救助啊用目前的規定是這個樣子你如果這個是答案的話啦你如果這個是答案的話刑事赴民為了要保護這些被害人不用繳裁判費的這個規定就可以廢啦你全部都廢掉嘛你告訴每一個人啦去申請訴訟救助啊這個是我們面對被害人應該有的態度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3473.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3498.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
這個是我的問題啦當絕大多數的法官都抱持這樣的見解他們那個結論是有給司法院的你知道嗎那個民事的個案的部分我這邊不便再表示但是我們會把他待會我不會跟你談個案我再跟你談的全部都是抽象的法律原則但我們看到抽象的法律原則應該要保護詐欺的被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3500.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3521.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
應該要便於他們求償嗎但實際上面的實踐卻不是這樣所以才請教你請教你是我希望做的事情是試圖試圖在司法體系當中不要再耗費大家的勞力時間費用如果能夠統一法令見解的話不要讓這些人很辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3522.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3531.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
因為他們接下來要冒的法律風險是什麼我讓你裁定駁回嘛裁定駁回以後我不服就抗告嘛抗告到上級審的法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3532.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3559.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
去討公道但問題是我們法律人出一張嘴巴講簡單我們用嘴巴講的程序都是這些被害人他們要自己付出勞力時間費用一個一個堆疊起來的等到他們真的討到正義的時候其實已經身心俱疲老實講現在已經身心俱疲這個案件拖了7年這個案件拖了7年 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3560.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3582.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
現在才一審判決出來什麼時候判決確定實現正義之路還遙遙無期我希望司法院回去因為這個不是我給司法院的功課這個是最後投票出來的結果我跟廳長報告其中有47個人認為根本就不應該什麼根本就不應該去採 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3586.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3606.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
直接被害的見解 間接被害還要在裡面最後的結論是 建請司法院轉請最高法院研究這個司法院有收到嗎有轉請最高法院研究嗎那個時候我還沒來沒有關係啊 你還沒來你回去跟司法院那些大官講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3608.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3622.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
趕快統一法令見解保障這些被害人的權益因為你們如果不做當我們確定你們不做這件事情的時候立法者別無選擇下一個行動就是修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3623.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3643.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
就是修法我在法條裡面把它明定不以直接被害為限否則的話絕大多數的見解全部都已經出來了還有法官做這樣的線索解釋導致被害人欲哭無淚這個不是我們制定這些法律在保障被害人權益的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3645.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3672.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
聽長可以嗎?是,謝謝委員指教你不用謝謝我指教我剛拜託你做的事情我幫被害者發聲啊是,謝謝幫他們說的話請您帶回去給司法院然後依照這些法官的建議建請最高法院趕快統一法令間接如果法令間接統一的話趕快讓地方法院的法官知道否則這樣的情況會不斷的發生啊這樣可以嗎?可以,沒問題好,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3675.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3698.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
謝謝,那我們下一位請謝榮介委員感謝主席我請法務部長及經政署長我先請兩位來 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3706.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3717.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
部長你好 早上好 署長辛苦了 委員高昌部長請教你喔 37個市評判啦 現在有30個啊 說已經評理部已經過期了 沒保留的啊 現在市判員 我覺得很奇怪 可有可能這樣就差嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3731.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3742.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
不然也把以前的心胖的法官叫來問看看你是不是都有把他判死刑不然那個就不能查了這三十個如果不能繼續記啊 部長這樣要怎麼辦但是法官說可以再拖那個是不對的 那是違背人權的精神喔你給人家拖那麼久對不對 有人要拖十幾年了這三十個如果不能再拖就對了你如果要拼出去 我已經在這裡跟你說過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3760.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3769.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我們剛好有15個大法官包括理責的那幾個都給省了一個人叫林佑弄的坐在他們家吃飯大三個月Q處理的對不對現在問題來了這七個都有一體的法官判他死刑所以大概這七個是無名非中原啦部長我請教你 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3791.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3806.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
一時要解釋這個我們會依照憲判議職8號的一個解釋如果有受刑能力的話,當然我們就可以依法執行有阿,他在那裡關了久了,你把他關到笑他,他也沒說他 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3808.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3817.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
裡面有幾個可以執行的問題是你要執行嗎這管理在你這便你的問題這個有依照憲法的意旨的話那現在這個37個還在現在還在檢查總長在審那7個可以處理啦嘛我告訴你這還是要審啦這個我想這個救法、研法我們就以目前來講最高限你現在要叫老總統請那些民調現在我存力啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3837.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3849.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
存的沒人我多求他民進黨在我委員會沒一個可以求他,我存你你還敢打兩下,你民調的氣差不多10%,看你要什麼我不會害你啦,我都在幫你碰到這七個可以打兩下,打兩下給我們看看,彌補人民對待法官寫憲的失望 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3866.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3870.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
對司法正義,在你的勝負中還存在著一點點的愚蠻。」你有想要這樣做嗎?當然我們這就是,我還是重申就是,現在還在審查中,審議中那這個我們會依照憲判意旨的這些的有所行的我們就會依法執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3889.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3915.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
那剛才那個委員提到那個整個一個一個一個羈押的一個問題齁那我想因為帶這些確定死刑定驗的這些的死刑犯他們現在是說你不是羈押沒關係啦,可以拔你就要拔就對了啦你的意思是這樣啦齁是不是可以執行你就會執行是不是這樣我們都是依法處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3916.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3942.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
我這依法處理在哪?可以接行你就會接行是不是這樣目前那個整個一個死刑的一個憲判歷史死刑是合憲的嘛齁那但是如果說有沒有受刑能力現在還在審議中嘛這個檢討中央還在審議中如果有你就會執行就對了這個就依法處理啊依法處理是你買啊問啊你要或不要這個個案的問題齁那個還要再經過這個算個案好沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3947.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3953.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
副長你有說陳啟毅人已經遭處理了人還要再過來對不對目前的話是有專案小組在做一個你講人還要再過來嘛這個研判研判來你的研判可能不對來我請書長你知道我一向對警察很有信心的是這個人如果還要再過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3975.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3990.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
他憑你的能力,他是沒有辦法脫出你的強重心尤其我對於平時警察局的扮演,我是非常有信心的就對了就過去的厭倦這樣下來,你所掌握的端竊又有在說嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3996.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4003.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
現在的訊息各方面都有啦那我們現在還在查證當中我的情報說他在外南啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4006.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4028.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
沒有啦 因為委員 現在印尼喔專業小組還在做啦 印尼這牽涉到偵查中的這個案件啦這哪有偵查中 這偵查要人去我找去啊沒有啦 我們在這種這個網站看我們有那個互助嗎有 有互助有互助我們有派聯絡官在那裡現在都沒有 現在看我們有在互動的像菲律賓而已嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4031.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4039.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
沒有啦,我們的東南亞國家有的也是有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4062.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4089.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
不一定啦在南部不一定啦都不一定都不一定抓得到嗎我相信應該抓得到好好 多久的時間我看這個要喊時間 委員你給我一個空間一個月一個月抓不到 你算漏氣我們盡量做啦不是啦 真的啊我相信你的領域 只要在國內啊到今天你已經兩星期了嗯 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4091.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4101.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
不可能行使、警察、警政署一個日告來的人兩星期在這裡就沒有了這違背我對警察的認定了對不對是有信心嗎有信心嗎1個月1個月是有夠靈了1個月加進程兩星期就夠半個月了1個人嫌疑中台吞打我們這麼多費工錢的嫌疑犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4121.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4130.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
可遭取遭離開你的情侶及伴侶這件事有多嚴重呢?他還沒有熱情呢?對不對?各位我請那個指揮中心的指揮官來指揮官我請教你每次這個平台升立這麼久了你今天說你有兩個新婚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4150.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4160.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
我們的犯罪受理如何?這裏面有食人及沒有食人的嗎?部長你請坐啦,這中間你比較無啦你不是智慧官嗎?沒有啦,我來回答一下啦,我回答因為打仗的這個儀表板現在我們在處理嘛,現在一天啦,一天差不多都在四億左右啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4176.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4184.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
就是案件發生在五百件到六百件一天的財損大概四億左右一天的財損大概四億左右一天的財損大概四億左右一天的財損大概四億左右 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4200.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4210.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
我看 鄉親聽到這事實是都白痴老白痴所以說 這種是一個 這種是一個 有那是一個不因為 我們在這裡要討論的說你這個平台要呈現真實的數字啦對 是真實的數字因為裡面有勝案到沒勝好 來 從這個數字出來剛才市長說 你在報告說這五個州裡面 有外南的 菲律賓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4231.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4234.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
和我人的相較者,我還有泰國的,這裡是實際參與立場的案件,那裡是包括提供中和給詐欺集團,都有算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4246.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4264.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
這就是有抓到的案件啦你不用想說有抓到的嘛好來一百十一年就有三百幾個啦三百八十幾個一百十二年七百三十幾個我知道那三十二萬塊的啦對對對阿沒抓到的所以說有一些沒抓到的就是壓過有一些再來這裡移工他的口罪金管會敢有來金管會拜託會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4274.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4286.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我感覺你們這個平台就都沒有方向在那裡來我...順便我請教你喔,一個移工禮拜,一個月的薪水合理說應該多少錢?差不多在兩萬多...三萬,沒超過了喔?沒超過三萬給你算加班三萬通是不是可以把這個金管...金管費就說...我現在說的這個考則房提供的是包括違法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4304.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4310.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
逃逸的、逃逸的這包括合法的已經出境了、考測還在的。」金管委你知不知道? |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4312.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4337.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
委員好 有關於這一個部分我們已經有跟移民署有借界資料也就是說如果外籍移工已經有出境或者收容等這些資訊銀行可以查知得到那如果銀行查到這些外籍移工已經這個帳戶已經沒有薪資進來可是卻有異常的資金進來他可以做相關的管控您很被動 很被動 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4340.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4344.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4364.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4391.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
甚至他想要來接受遷還,我參記表就不賣!然後我把我的帳戶再賣一倍!」你知不知道有這個情形?就是說如果這個人已經不在國內可是帳戶有異常的資金管的進出的話金管會這邊喔是要不要有這個官僚的心態啦我感覺因為你們都會想說想要幫忙不夠積極啦不夠積極啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4394.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4421.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
能不能設定就研議啊你正常你的薪水不會超過三萬假如這些列管的移工外籍移工的帳號他每個月進出一禮拜譬如說超過十到十五萬這就異常了嘛你一薪水的五倍如果這樣就把這個他作為警示低度 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4422.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4431.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
的警示或是中度的警示賬號的時候,搞乎競證書這資料下去,很快就可以發覺這裡是有詐欺或沒有詐欺,甚至會讓詐欺案件減少很多,你們有這樣考慮嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4440.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4457.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
同意委員的說法不過這個部分這個金額要怎麼設定就是由各銀行他會去看相關資金的進出來做相關的處理他可以停止他的交易也可以來做圈存、做凍結現在我們在這裡就是要討論這個結構出來我跟你說譬如他3萬他不是來做生意的他是來吃頭肉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4464.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4475.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
這套路他不是要做生意一個月基本薪酬不會超過3萬這樣他一個月花禮拜有10萬、15萬譬如說我們家庭15萬因為你如果只有15萬額度一般詐欺集團不會用因為他用了他付出一個代價收到15萬就緊死了 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4487.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4499.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我講這樣你有理解這個情形嗎?了解啊如果這樣是不是15萬就已經青少年五輩了呢?啊我們就把他提出經濟人口交給經濟單位打詐中心他是不是就這樣有辦法嗎?指揮說啊你比這樣我想不出來你不就要跟金管會講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4511.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4525.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
跟委員報告委員的意見我們列管然後我們把這個部份帶回去打詐你列管金管會不配合你們的列管不了嗎?我們列管有跨平台我們有跨平台的列管金管你認為這個金價在10萬至15萬這樣有可恥嗎?署長這樣有可恥嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4532.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4537.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
因為詐騙集團他不敢嘛,我幫你收一個帳戶來,15萬就去紅警司啦,他會感到沒必要,所以這移工的帳戶他就不會去贏了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4547.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4556.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我們現在一般就是說我們臺灣鄉親就對了 大家去我們騙家已經都會跌價了所以要再給我拿帳號要什麼 我們警覺信高他才會轉而去找這些移工嘛你移工你要把這個門檻扭起來10萬至15萬合理啦 外國可以處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4574.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4601.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
這些什麼樣符合這個異常的態樣我們可以再來討論那回去再做相關的討論你報告 願意一個的報告一句話給我好嗎可以一句話給我具體的做法 我覺得這是不用說太多大學問啦對上下課 吃到餓 青少吃一口吃不到餓你零三吃一口 請一堆人去各種各路營 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4607.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4610.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這移工外籍移工的首級列管 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4626.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4644.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
報告委員,我們現在就是跟那個警政署這邊有建165聯合風險資料庫,如果有那個通報的話,他只要輸入那個護照號碼,那我們電信業者這邊都會有列管,大概...欸,輸掉,啊,越來關案件越多為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4648.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4657.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
有關發生的案件多少?詐騙的金額多少?有的,有的,這案件都是當然有關在處理中,中有一些可能有求,沒說完全都做得這麼好,沒完全嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4664.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4684.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
沒有全部所以這其實你現在說的這就是保安我覺得最重要的就是在那個廣告平台的訊息堵住源頭不管是外我們今天討論的是外籍移工他的金融廣告平台那就是專門的嘛那應該是在那個平台的源頭堵止住 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4689.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4703.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那個是一個最大宗的最大宗就是我們人民不去接受這個訊息不去接受這個嘛這個藥帳戶啊手機啊是要反落的手段而已啊就是那個最大就是那個訊息要堵住了 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4704.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4717.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
堵住你地盤堵住堵得住嗎應該可以堵得住因為這個部分我們堵得住配合四法部四法部我們要把它廢掉啊沒有啦廢掉我們打詐就你廢掉打詐就荒野前者已轉啊沒有四法部我們就都沒辦法打詐不是這樣啦絕對不是這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4729.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4742.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
對嗎?四法部給我們提了多少錢喔?只要提20%的錢,交給經濟署就對了經濟署絕對做屁比較好,對嗎?你有信心嗎?有人這樣說啦沒有啦,真的啊!四法部,你沒帶沒紙,你要在這裡替他背書那六星廳已經對他很感冒了,你都沒在注意你要注意,若遲到會動用啦四法部準備要包起來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4761.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4783.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我們下一位請林思明委員發言好 謝謝趙偉我們請法務部我們鄭部長麻煩部長警政署我們張署長署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4787.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4815.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
是部長還有署長早我想我們國人對於詐騙案件感受很深所以今天招委排這個議題我想讓大家更深層的去探討詐欺案件為什麼我們打詐四法上路之後還是詐騙的金額還是維持在很高的一個金額然後案件量還是持續不斷的去上漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4816.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4835.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
那我想我們明年打算的預算增加大概4.8倍當然政府是希望能以打詐視同作戰的決心除惡勿近但是我們看到就是說似乎也仍然不足以有效嚇阻這些詐欺犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4836.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4848.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那我第一個問題先請教署長署長剛才提到說今年7月我們打詐就詐欺的這個被害人的被詐欺金額是110億8月9月10月呢有統計嗎8月137億9月118億10月份120億 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4862.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4880.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
所以今年度所以七八月份七八月份是高峰那九到十月是有稍微有降那委員長提的就是說我們打詐四法是在七月份通過通過之後現在就在做這個相關部委執法的這個修訂所以我會覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4885.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4908.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
今年的年底以前先是一個空窗期所以這個詐欺的這種狀況還是屬於高爆發的一個階段但是我看這案件是有漸漸的往下走因為你現在看有一些網路廣告平台你沒有實名制有很多人都不想要配合嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4908.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4915.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這是從11月開始還沒統計統計到10月份就已經高達了10月還有120億是個高峰期所以11月截至目前為止你沒有做過統計因為今天已經11月21號了 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4932.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4950.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
十一月會下降嗎?趨勢會下降嗎?我現在看因為我們每天都會公佈疫苗版大概在一億到五億左右這張我剛才有講過就是說在七到八月份大概在四億多九到十月份大概三億九差不多兩千幾萬一天所以說這個數字看起來是 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4955.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4979.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
緩步的再往下走那種趨勢你10月還在還比那個9月還多啊你說我看到就沒有了但你10月份大概到一百十倍了那我希望你講的是能夠是真實反應真實面11月我們希望看到你11月統計數字確實有呈現下降的一個趨勢我相信這個每天的儀表版我每天都跟他公佈而且是真實的數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4982.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5005.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
現在打詐四法通過打詐的政策推行後我們現在目前看到的趨勢就是案件數及受害者的財損金額一直增加部長你認為為什麼一直增加這個趨勢的原因是什麼為什麼工具給了法案也都已經上路了 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5006.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5027.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
那是什麼原因?以前那個都是電信詐騙都是我們傳統我們都會接到那個電話那那個是亂槍打鳥式的嘛那現在的那個詐騙的形象因為詐騙也會進化所以他現在最主要的詐騙的類型他現在是比較轉向那個投資型的一個廣告那投資廣告的詐騙金額多 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5028.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5043.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
那些這個被害人的話他可能對象會資歷會比我們對他先打電話會資歷比較大所以你意思說現在就傳統的用打電話來行騙的這個類型已經慢慢減少了現在大宗的就是網路詐欺啦尤其是投資的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5047.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5066.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
這個投資詐騙的這部分的確是比較因為他有做一些包裝所以這些投資大眾會誤信所以他等到發掘到的時候可能那個錢能處理好幾筆部長你這樣回答可以那署長你的類型觀察到類型是不是因為網路投資的類型沒有錯現在的詐欺第一名就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5067.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5092.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
這是投資型的網絡投資型的詐欺就是把你這個訊息投放給你就是高暴力高高高手的很快的時間就可以獲利把它點入他的點擊之後然後進入他的那個群組來的一直來養起來這樣好幫你套起來然後就在裡面詐騙話語了解其實是這種投資類型的是大宗大宗大概佔百分之六七十 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5093.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5104.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
就是你們有一個165的APP打詐的APP嘛對建置這個費用大概多少大概一千多萬一千多萬嘛對啊速發部勒 速發部我們是副署長副署長請問啊那你們的建構的這個打詐APP總共花多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5126.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5152.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
6千萬6千萬難怪剛才謝榮介會那麼生氣你們把這個業務不如移轉給我們那個警政署你們花了6千萬我有看到那個王世堅委員講說速發布建制這個APP花了6千萬比警政署多了6倍結果你們的成效非常的差 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5154.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5174.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
我們今年建置的費用是不到一千萬那王委員所稱的六千萬是明年的 明年的費用那這些費用並不是只有建置費用因為還要包含一些可能未來還有一些客服可能要委外明年六千萬明年變到五千多萬今年一千多萬所以是王委員質詢錯誤啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5177.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5189.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
因為你們署長還講說你們部長還回答說因為這個還在測試階段啊所以成效不彰啊所以你今天跟我講那是明年才是建制費用是六千萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5190.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5214.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
已經建置好了這個費用是延續性的是 所以你們是花了六千萬嘛是不是 你不要在這邊胡說八道喔到底是六千萬還是一千多萬委員我們重新說一遍就是說因為它今年是先建置然後明年的部分是建置再加上客服的部分因為我們還是要一些服務然後還是 比如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5215.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5232.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
接聽接聽電話跟確認內容然後還有要去這個其實是蠻花人力的然後另外的話可能有比如說各個就是團體跟使用者有很多的需求需要把它修改我告訴你們啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5234.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5261.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
因為我們看警政署真的很辛苦花了一千多萬建立這個一六的APP反詐APP但是你們明年你說六千多萬嘛要花那麼多的錢但是我們要看到的人民要看到是你們能夠這個把錢花在刀口上你要有積極的成效讓我們看到但是現在書發部一直為人詬病的對整個打詐的一個功效啊做得非常的差 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5263.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5282.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
剛才署長他們就是針對我們網路詐欺投資犯罪類型會這個有這麼重大的一個案件書一直在攀升被騙金額也那麼高請問書發部對於這種網路詐欺的投資犯罪有什麼樣的一個政策工具能夠去遏止 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5283.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5299.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
委員好謝謝給我們說明就是我們針對打詐四法的部分裡面像比如說詐欺犯罪防治條例以及那個洗房法的部分有授予我們就是要提出四個六個執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5301.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5326.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那我們六個執法目前也都已經訂定然後我們會依據時間在就是11月30號之前就是會去做一個公佈那之前針對就是網路廣告平台業者還有第三方支付跟電商業以及網路連線遊戲的部分其實我們都非常積極的去做一些行政指導跟行政檢查的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5327.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5341.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那這個部分就是很如我們之前部長有提到的我們非常的期待就是說也有預期我們在明年有關詐欺的部分會依依為我們積極的處理然後他會下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5342.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5366.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
剛才我給你很多時間去做一個說明根據軍管會的統計顯示截至今年10月底僅Google與Meta的投資詐騙廣告量就高達63191件顯示非實名制的廣告已成為詐騙的重要來源許多的詐騙集團是利用境外作為規避執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5369.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5389.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
的一個方式所以請問我們速發部或者是我們法務部、金管會金管會也上來金管會就是說我們有沒有跨部會的一個聯繫還有我們跟國際的平台這些不管是Google還有Facebook我們如何建立更緊密的合作關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5392.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5413.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
請速發部先回答這個部分一直是我們部長非常非常積極要求我們要跟他們去做一個比較好的一個聯防跟協作的部分那他們也非常的配合然後也有提到說在今年年底之前他們都會把這個實名制的部分做好FB還有Google |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5415.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5423.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
GOOGLE、LINE、TITO都一樣只有訴發部還有法務部有沒有共同參與? |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5425.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5449.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
這個法務部本來在太高監署我們就有一些的跟各部會的做一個聯繫平台所以我們會把檢察官的那些辦案的這些的發現我們可以再加強部我們會回饋給各部會所以各部會就是因為我們這樣大家共襄盛舉大家群體所以過了很多那個制度大家為有關心的就是其實法務部也跟那個網路社群軟體包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5449.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5471.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
LINE、META、GOOGLE這些有建立的資料調取的一個協議那這部分那我想我們這邊都在進行那另外那個涉及詐騙廣告這部分有建立這個剛才有講通報下架機制或透過那個一些的停止的一個網頁的一個解析那這部分就做以上的補充那另外金管會呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5472.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5492.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
監管會我想問你就是說對於這個社群平台採實名制的積極性你們如何的去做一個法規的調整跟委員報告那目前的話剛剛委員其實已經有提到說我們現在的投資詐騙其實已經有發生6萬多件那跟委員報告這個6萬多件的話都是我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5494.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5512.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
在網路平台上我們主動去搜報出來的那發覺說他違反了我們目前我們目前先用的是頭鏡頭顧法他用冒名的方式或是匿名的方式去做的這一部分我們在第一時間拿回來就請親自警察局這邊幫我們去幫他下架那目前的話我們執行的策略就是我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5513.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5524.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
搶速度,我們速度越快能夠讓他下架的話,那這悲憾的就不容易去看到。」是,那個,教練我再問你,就是說目前詐欺犯罪委員會條例授權的執法 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5525.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5549.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
他的進度如何?我們執法的部分的話我們現在未來都會在11月30日之後就會發佈我們到時候就按照這個我剛才關心的就是說目前我們金管會要如何確保社群平台啊因為現在我們看到有幾家銀行嘛他們對於這種沒有採私名制的這些網路平台就是不再跟他投廣告嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5550.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5560.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那對於這種社群平台採實名制的積極性而非僅停留在現在是由金融業它治癒的層面你們未來要如何的去做規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5561.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5584.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
跟委員報告那目前金融業這邊他是採取的是一個自動自發的方式他針對這些沒有實名制的他會請他會把他廣告撤下那未來這個那個打詐四法生效之後的話那在有關的這個速發部這邊只要是指定的這些平台業者他都必須採用實名制如果沒有採用實名制的話後續都會有相關的罰則 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5611.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5623.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
謝謝主席有請我們警政署署長麻煩警政署署長署長我們法務部部長部長麻煩部長那個司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5625.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5627.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
請教幾個問題周杰倫的演唱會兩位派要舉行我看下週也開放要取票先前在售票的期間黃牛這個現象非常的猖獗 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5651.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5666.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
這陣子棒球十二強很熱部分的賽事我們也看到很多其實你們也很清楚啦都有黃狗的一個足跡那署長之前在打詢的時候說你警政署全力去出擊那我想請教這陣子的情況怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5668.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5693.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
去準國安法委員報告上次委員早上質詢說你說是不是下午會成交結果下午就抓到用AI的這種模式去買票的有兩個集團所以我們都抓到了抓到之後我們就給他公布這個情形那現在就是說這個因為他這個演唱會是屬於文創華裡面的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5694.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5712.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
那真單純的只有買賣這個只有那些買來做荒謬荒謬荒謬票可以划到50倍啦所以這件阿另外是這個是用那個AI程式的這個用文創法用違反這個來做移送可以划5千億萬啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5713.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5715.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠!我靠! |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5733.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5750.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
那地政署那如果說違反整個文化創意產業發展法的這個黃流條款的部分啊對都會去做一個起訴但是碰到一個問題啊我也知道說我們警察警政機關跟我們法務部這個地方啊機政檢察官大家都很辛苦可是呢 廳長現在有一個問題來了就是說現在這個搭授的行為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5756.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5769.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
我買兩張周杰倫的門票我買五千塊我不是買門票我就跟他說我送你一支麥克風我賣麥克風我賣我的簽名賣我的簽名警察局一定把我扔下來說那是亂消的結果我也被起訴結果到我們法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5783.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5791.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
無罪有說理的判決其實我都沒有意見那這個確實也很麻煩有時候你說一張有時候你說兩張它確實不是一個集團式那像這種啊這種規避的法律的一個脫法的一個行為啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5800.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5813.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
很清楚我就是要賣這個黃牛票可是我就跟你說我在賣我莊惠雄的簽名我是在賣咖啡然後送捉捷倫的門票我咖啡是五千捉捷倫的門票沙巴德這個法案這樣的判這個判決以後你讓我們這個警察機關跟我們法務部檢察官這樣子大家忙了半天你的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5827.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5836.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這個脫法行為有這個實務上的見解我沒有特別的意見不過事實上我們當然法官判就當然沒有意見我的意思就是說他判決還是有說理那個說理還講得通我的意思說怎麼樣來解決總要有一個指引出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5846.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5859.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個我們回去會做進一步的研議好不好不然我們的基層警察大家忙得要死那檢察官也就認為說你這個壞蛋本身你本來就是在賣這個黃牛票那個就到法院這個我認為沒有一個指引出來前面兩個部分警察也好檢察官也好都坐北崗 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5872.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5887.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
你認不認同這樣的看法我認同委員的看法這個不要開玩笑了好不好另外我繼續要來請教的就是說我們司法院這個地方那個警政署警政署也是還有你們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5888.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5907.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
我一直很關心我們這個科技偵查的部分我們警政署今年在也舉辦了全國科技偵查的一個競賽這個都已經舉辦了這個是好事透過競賽跟這個實戰的一個演練才可以去發揮整個的一個效能但我比較關心的就是說科偵法的一個執法今年7月份 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5908.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5933.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
特別刑事訴訟法的特殊強制處分的一個專章裡面在條文指出來就是說按照該專章的調查的一個方式取得的資料跟保存還有管理、銷毀、呈報、通知、救濟、監督跟其他相關的一個事項的辦理是司法院會同行政院來制定可是在上週那個刑事訴訟法的特殊處分的執行辦法裡面我看到司法院做了很多的一個功課 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5934.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5948.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
多到19個條文以及研討會至少三次的諮詢會議這個要大大的去做一個肯定這個真的是要大大做一個肯定可是我想請教司法院的就是說這一次你們的執行辦法的主軸到底是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5950.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5971.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
我們執行辦法除了依照153之10第5項的授權之外我們有重要的就是關於委員會所關心的資料的保存管理跟銷毀怎樣防避這部分我們做了很大的努力包括事中的陳報的警察是事中陳報部分我們都有做相當的約制我簡單的講我比較關切的就是說我們幾乎 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5976.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6005.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
這個部長也很清楚法務部這個地方都非常辛苦我們是很擔心的就是說你不管是對人民侵害是多小的那這個部分沒有授權到最後都會變爛用那我的建議就是說與其你們這個辦法司法院跟行政院這個地方應該就是法務部嘛 不對就是說我們要公佈這個法律的時候你不如在整個研討會的過程裡面把這一些學者專家不同的意見做一件全部都給淡淡出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6006.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6024.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
你不要這樣一個耍了公報耍然後媒體或者學者再去寫一篇他們所有的那種文章的渲染力啊或者說團體啊 你們建清也好你搞不好你搞不好大家再來批評一下之後這個逼你 你在這裡開水到水上轉泡齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6026.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6033.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
更靠攏贏。」所以我建議這個整個以後這個整個你們在作業的方式裡面可以再細緻一點不同意見我們幹嘛怕人家知道本來在實務上在做研討的時候正反意見本來都會有你會集合那麼多學者的專家來就是要聽他們的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6047.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6054.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
他們講出來他也不怕人家外界知道啊那有些見解都是質地有聲啊只是說你在我們這個行政部門裡面你到底現在去實施會不會有那個能量的問題啊所以我建議喔我這個我真的大膽給你建議這個真的是在過程裡面啊就把那一些不同意見全部就把它做一個揭露好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6069.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6089.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
我還不知道補充你的看法是吧贊同委員的意見那我想我們這個法案就是要廣大意見或是採周延謝謝委員的指教是 你看我們訂這些執法 訂這些指引我們像在我們10月22號23號特殊相處處分的學術交流會裡面 研討會裡面全部都已經有了啊有了以後你就不知道啊像現在我們在討論的時候你馬上 嗯 要不要就很奇怪那學術研討的這個東西哪有什麼不可告人的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6099.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6123.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
這都是專家學者的見解啊聽得懂好不好這個應該做得到吧這個我們學術院長會我們有對外公佈的那資料也有提供有公開版的可以看是啦 我的意思是說像這一些不要等到我們的辦法出來以後啊這樣我們批評了之後還要我去查查出來這樣就不好好不好現在我們的執法已經在預告程序了預告程序應該大家都看得到可以給我們一些指教跟批評好 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6123.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6138.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那另外我要來就教了我可能要請這個我看今天來的各項內政部警政署署發部還有我們國家通訊傳播委員會署長也有來還有我們行政院打詐指揮中心監管會也請多一些上來一下幾個問題要就教 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6153.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6182.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
我想這一次部長我要請教法務部部長柏丁各個部門上來的我請你們也特別注意聽我們現在柯真法有一個很重要的一個功能就是打詐嘛柏丁我們這個打詐從議程的題目可以看得出來問題出在什麼地方你看現在的詐騙犯罪越來越可怕了把青少年跟外籍移工在很多不知情的情況之下全部都捲出來了捲進來了變成犯罪的加害者或者是一個幫助犯我要來讓你們看一下成效 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6186.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6193.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
各單位也看一下108年42億109年42億111年56億111年73億112年88億今年113年1到10月份就已經274億我要就教各位的就是說我們都經歷過疫情的疫情疫情有所謂的高峰 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6214.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6235.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
不然警政署署長署長署長來來署長那疫情有高峰啊你以為我們這個打詐那個高峰什麼時候會到達你看到這個數字你會不會覺得很可怕現在看起來 現在是七月到八月最高峰你覺得七月到八月是高峰因為八月八月到一百三十幾個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6239.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6250.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
你現在到15歲的時候已經274個了11月我看也快結束了嘛11跟12以現在你目前掌握11月份的部分你認為11月份18個了12月份之前到這陣子我還沒把它統計出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6253.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6260.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
那也還沒降下來嗎?沒有啦,我那個15分是120票嘛,那那個105分是137票而已,137到120票 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6267.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6286.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這個是很可怕的一個數字真的是很可怕的數字啦這個其實為什麼這麼多單位要上來內政部負責叫做試詐稍微叫做讓老百姓知道什麼叫做詐騙通傳會負責代表的就是電信的防詐通傳會有來了齁你們叫做防詐嘛對不對齁然後呢通傳會你們叫賭詐對然後呢速發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6296.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6316.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
司法部您就防詐對吧然後呢 金管會您就主詐一堆啦我也不知道這這樣到底怎麼樣去做一個分工法務部當然叫做打詐他確實對 叫做懲詐也都有一定的功效我要說的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6318.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6330.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這到底安斷了還是算對的站在警察的立場站在金融檢察官的立場就我很努力啊你有犯罪我就破案啊對 這對可是站在整體國家的立場我們的警察機關他有盡責囉努力在做檢察官案子送過來我努力偵辦也起訴囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6345.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6359.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
法院的部分當然判決以後人少掉一半人數我是剛才沒有秀出來人數少掉了一半但是我們各單位站在整個國家的立場來看的話為什麼會讓老百姓批評說越打越炸這個我們要檢討這個我們確實要檢討所以我才在問說高峰會在什麼地方疫情都有高峰會降下來你不可以打詐說我們都是高峰高峰高峰一直打一直上去一直上去 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6375.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6392.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我如果是警政署長我會認為我很努力啊我如果是警政署長我會認為我很努力啊我哉尖發福啊我維護這個社會的治安啊把壞蛋全部都抓起來啊可是站在整個國家的立場這個國家生病了怎麼了怎麼一直上去金額一直這樣累積這個接下來就可能不是警政署跟法務部的問題囉警政署的問題囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6401.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6425.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
救我們其他機關的問題,你說通傳會你們有沒有問題?訴發部你們這裡有沒有問題?其他你們這些協助整個國家整理扮演著不同角色的,所以我是覺得不要讓我們的警察官或者警察大家忙翻了以後,然後這個都還降不下來,你說這個是不是成績部長? |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6426.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6430.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
我也認為這個偵破對警察來講他們認為我是成績啊你說譬如說我們基層在棄毒吧對不對齁 抓到了好多毒品啊我還要阻絕在境外全部都破貨可是如果那個量每一年一直增加一直增加那也很可怕怎麼樣去防堵就可能就在前面了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6449.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6464.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
來,我們行政院今天去你們的防詐中心的指揮官有來嗎?來,我要聽你,你有什麼選擇沒有來?這大家都很認真在幫你倒卡手喔,你做指揮官的人你會看完?好,跟委員報告,這個詐騙它是一個產業鏈 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6467.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6482.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
他不是一個單一的個別的現象所以我們現在在做就是說把這個產業鏈阻斷那所以從問題是不阻沒斷跟委員報告我們現在那個打詐四法通過之後11月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6483.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6499.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
我們現在有11個執法要上路那上路以後呢在訴發部這邊他們會針對四大平台然後把前端的詐欺有關的資訊把它堵住那堵住之後我們後面民眾我們要降低他接觸詐騙訊息的這樣的一個機率 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6502.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6522.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那再透過我們後端我們在查緝的部分把這個有關犯罪集團的部分把他查緝到案所以我們是從上中下游分別下手這我都可以說這我都很會說我如果是警政署長或是我刑事警察局長我會跟你說我就性質這麼好我都會破案我如果法務部長說我下面的檢察官大家都這麼拚命 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6530.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6558.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
掠奪我的起訴加重求情我老司法院會對法官說那個來的案件我們就把他判下去我們就把他重判好三個機關都這樣講只是站在老百姓的立場說你這是在做什麼你整個責政團隊在幹什麼已經警政署這個地方他負到責任了法務部他負到責任了司法院他負到責任了那其他該誰的 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6560.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6565.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我們就一個一個把它拆開你一個執政團隊是好多輪子好多機器大家共同來運轉所以你講這個 我知道你要講這個我告訴你這幾年都在討論這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6577.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6599.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
都在討論這個問題喔政府就是整個來看喔我們要加強的空間非常非常大喔我為什麼前面談課真法再來跟你秀出這個數字是要告訴你大家都很努力大家都人仰馬翻數字也都很漂亮但是這個很漂亮的數字的背後就要告訴我們我們的政府機關努力還不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6602.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6630.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
報告委員我們會持續我們現在有列管指標那在今年底之前行政院會公布新的打詐綱領2.0那麼把這個指標全部列出來之後行政院會對各部會目前手上所有的工具跟它執行的結果我們會去做列管所以這個部分跟委員報告我們明年開始我們在這個現在的數字呈現上我們有信心它會下降你認為下個月就會下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6632.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6655.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
跟委員報告我們11月底公布執法有工具之後我們從下個月到明年這段期間我們是下降期很好部長、署長工具都給你了我期待十月份就已經是高峰了我看到下個月的時候或者下下個月這個議題在我們司法法制委員會一定是大家會關注的一個議題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6656.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6667.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
我們很期待現在是高峰接下來慢慢緩降因為資訊都是公開透明的嘛這個確實啦其他的部會齁各有所思的人你們要好好去想一想每一個部門雖然人多啦建制派打擊犯罪建制派打擊犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6678.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6694.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
司法院、我們的法院、依法審判其他的事情齁你們這裡的其他在發揮很大的功能該給你們的法律也給你們的該給的武器也給的該給的預算我們一毛錢都沒少要加油好不好好謝謝請回謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6698.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6710.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
好 謝謝鍾委員那我們先做會議的程序預告稍後在鍾委員嘉賓訓導完畢後休息5分鐘那我們接下來請陳俊宇委員發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6726.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6732.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
好,謝謝主席,我們先請馬次長跟警政署的長署長好,次長、署長早好,我們今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6744.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6773.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個針對今年通過的這個打詐四法要配合明年1月即將啟動的打詐綱領2.0無非是希望能夠透過同步的這個強化法制面還有組織面技術面來有效打擊這個相關的詐欺案那防止民眾受騙的案例一再發生我剛剛拜聽了我們早上的這個質詢我們在一整年的這個詐騙的相關這個案件目前看起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6774.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6779.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
一整年下來都超過一千億以上也要避免這個民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6781.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6807.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
再次受騙也要避免一些民眾因為不知情被詐騙集團當作是犯罪的一個工具從今天報告的題目也反映到目前移工和少年涉入詐欺的數量有增加的情況不但容易蒙受無謂的損失甚至被詐騙集團看準來吸收進而控制成為共犯這對於政府打擊犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6809.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6820.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
這個詐騙來說是必須盡速跨部會的來整合來防堵這個破口其中我想先針對這個外籍移工設詐或是受騙的情形來就較相關的部會 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6822.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6834.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
臺灣目前大約有80萬名的外籍移工從世界各地來臺灣打拼賺錢但是在臺的這些移工涉詐的人數從111年的382人到今年已經超過700人 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6838.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6862.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那這裡我想先就教我們的次長對於這個詐騙集團是如何來威逼利誘、吸收移工包括過去我們曾經聽說是針對這些經濟壓力或是可能以毒品、藥物加以控制的方式來誘使外籍移工去協助他們從事不法的行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6863.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6885.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這些手段和管道可能會與時俱進我看現在的詐騙集團比較多是用一些比較新穎的方式我想請教市長他們是透過什麼樣的方式和管道我們的主管機關有沒有確實掌握這些相關的事證 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6886.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6911.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
跟委員報告我們在目前查緝到的個案裡面我們分析外籍移工絕大多數他如果涉及詐欺犯罪的案件都是透過他的同鄉管道互相來介紹因為他的同鄉管道裡面之前有人從事於詐欺犯罪那就在誘使這個移工尤其是我們陶藝的移工因為他有經濟上的一個需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6912.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6933.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以他就會把他的門號跟帳戶交出來交給這個詐騙集團來利用那本身也可能成為車手所以在移工這塊我們除了多語化的宣導之外另外就是說透過包括勞動部的合作我們希望能夠從他們的一些團體來下手希望能夠讓這個部分降低 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6934.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6955.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
好 那聽起來我們也是有這個相對應的措施在進行當中那我也希望說這個部分可能要加緊腳步那其中剛剛那個次長你也說到這個門號的部分有一些這個犯罪集團他會去利用這些人頭帳戶外籍移工的人頭帳戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6956.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6975.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
來取得他們的這個電信號碼幫助他們來洗錢和詐欺的這個案件那尤其這個人頭帳戶的部分有可能在他們要出盡錢這個外籍移工就有用高價來賣給這個詐騙集團這個應該在坊間都聽得到甚至還有這個一個行情價目表在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6982.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6991.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
那我想目前我們銀行是不是能夠及時掌握到移民署和勞動部所提供的這類型的相關資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7001.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7018.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
跟委員報告我們在移民署的部分我們有提供包括通傳會跟金管會他移工本身的一個入出境的一個資料的借接那這部分我們也透過各自委員會同意那這個符合我們各自法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7019.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7045.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
那這個屆屆之後呢移工一旦離開台灣他的門號跟帳戶我們就會由金管會跟這個通傳會來做門號跟帳戶的管制是通知電信業者停號還是如何去管控停號嘛直接停號就好因為他既然移工已經離開台灣就就表示他這個門號就沒有用了嘛好那對於這個電信門號的這個詐騙來說齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7048.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7076.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
有關電信業者KYC的這個管理是不是能夠落實我看剛剛那個市長您也大概有掌握了那包括這個9月份給NCC開通查詢外籍的這個人士入出境的資訊能否和電信業者的這個之間來一個合作我想這還是要拜託我們內政部這邊跟相關電信業者有一個緊密的合作那許多這個失聯的移工 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7077.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7102.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
是我們政府難以掌握的一個族群到目前9月份我們全台灣已經超過8萬8千人的移工受到詐騙集團的鎖定有可能使這些失聯的移工被較高的酬金誘使從事不法甚至反而成為被詐騙的一個對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7104.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7119.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那礙於身份沒辦法報警或是尋求其他協助那對於失聯移工設詐或是被詐的情形能否來自源頭管理或是其他的因應措施我想這個部分還是請次長大概說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7120.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7134.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
跟委員報告我們現在在失業移工的部分因為主要的原因是因為台灣的經濟環境他如果在這個外面的所謂的黑工市場打工他的工作機會多 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7135.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7150.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
那酬勞也比他原本的這個工作可能高所以就變成是誘使他失聯一個主要的一個理由那我們現在在查緝的部分移民署我們有在加強所有的查緝的力道並沒有停下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7151.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7170.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
至於移工本身涉詐的部分我們現在在查緝的過程裡面我們會從每一個個案去回溯他涉詐的原因跟他背後的集團所以這部分我們在移民署跟警政署我們都有配合雙方把這個資訊我們有做交流好 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7174.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7188.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
另外就是對於我們要提升試詐的能力有可能會減少受騙的情形來產生包括透過各種傳播管道來製作不同形式的宣傳隨時可以更新防詐的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7189.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7205.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
例如勞動部有製作相關的圖卡包括有英文、泰文、越南文、印尼文等版本移民署還有加入緬甸文、柬埔寨文其他部會則不一定有提供相關語言版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7206.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7223.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
但如果都是為了要讓外籍人士能夠獲取最新的相關防詐的宣導資訊那這個部分我想應該由內政部來主責是不是可以來整合讓防詐的文宣有更多語言版本能夠更完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7224.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7241.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我們這個是不是移民署可以移民署對對對對對跟委員報告這是我們行政局會把詐騙的各種的手法就是多個語言提供提供給各相關這個部會來做一個一個試詐的一個選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7243.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7257.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
好那我還是請我們指揮中心指揮中心這邊跟我們警政署這邊來加強這個相關的這個演繹讓我們四詐的這種宣傳能夠更加的友善那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7258.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7280.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
對於這個國內我們少年涉詐的情形也越來越嚴重近年來已經查獲上萬人我們各級學校現在都應該有這個相關的這些法治教育有向這些學生來宣導切勿這個以身釋法但先前我們警方的這個統計數字明知違法仍然要從事詐騙行為的 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7281.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7296.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
這個犯案少年佔了七成以上這部分顯然我們的法治教育的部分出現了警訊有必要再進行研議和改善那對於在學校裡面上課的同學我們或許比較能夠掌握情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7296.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7311.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
但對於在校園以外的地方更是能夠誘使青少年接觸詐騙行為的地方我們應該要如何來防堵詐團對於青少年的接觸以降低我們這些少年處罰的機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7319.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7327.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
跟委員報告就是說這個少年去觸犯這個這個詐團但是少年可能是學生那現在我們發現到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7330.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7341.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
從111年大概剛剛這裡面到少年去犯詐欺犯罪我們大概有380幾個人112年有700多人那113年到12年大概也有700多這個趨勢是上升的那這裡面看起來就是說他的這個案件裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7349.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7374.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
大概都是以人頭或是帳戶的居多那怎麼要去做防堵呢?我們第一個就是要去做一個市長的一個宣導那這個宣導的部分我們特別強調就是說你不要認為你是少年是沒有責任你家長要負連帶的這個責任讓這一個他犯罪之後能夠有所有所嚇阻那第二部分就是說對於這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7376.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7378.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
高風險的青少年,我們會加強了解與查解。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7395.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7415.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
是不是屬於這個少年犯罪的這個教唆者我們會加強去做幕後集團的一個做這樣的一個查集那我們不管是校園內跟校園外或者是私學、中輟生什麼這些我們全方面會來做一個一個了解跟解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7415.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7441.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
好 謝謝署長那也謝謝次長我希望說我們各部會各部會我們對於這個剛剛早上到現在許多委員在關心的我們不管是市詐還有堵詐、防詐、阻詐、懲詐相關的這些部會應該要如何來分工如何來落實我相信這才是最重要確實讓我們台灣被詐騙的情形看能不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7442.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7461.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
快速來降低。」我相信這是全民所希望也是所有民眾最期待的也可以確實來保護我們所有人民生命財產的一個安全以上好謝謝好謝謝那我們接下來請羅志強委員代理主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7476.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7493.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
請吳宗憲委員我們麻煩李廳長、鄭部長、張署長李廳長、鄭部長、張署長還有金管會政局局黃副局長有請黃副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7508.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7534.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
待會我等一下有一些問題還是要麻煩像速發部或NCC你們不用上來但是稍微也要了解一下我的問題還有就是馬次長也要麻煩您先不用上台那前面我可能先提幾個問題待會我會再切入今天的主題我先請教李廳長因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7538.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7549.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
因為剛剛黃國昌委員及謝榮介委員都一直有提到死刑的部分那我的因為我之前有提出了幾個問題也是一直在呼籲而且我已經呼籲兩個月了我相信說 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7551.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7570.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為您是刑警法官出身一定非常清楚整個狀況那因為我現在發現這兩天有非常多的律師、側翼甚至以前還當過法官他除了他對於我們的問題完全沒有切到重點或我們在蔣東他在蔣西但是呢他講的那些東西會被很多媒體去誤導人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7571.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7598.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
像他一直講有人就一直講說什麼積壓期間可以重新齊算這大法官講問題這個從來沒有出現在我的問題中那他們可能是沒有看清楚我的問題或者是什麼原因我不知道但是誤導人民是不對我覺得政治人物或者是公眾人物或者是公務員都應該有個義務要告訴人民真相那我因為這幾個問題已經我一再公開了也不會是突襲你們那我們就再請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7599.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7626.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
您是刑警法官出身的一個人如果在監獄關了十幾年二十幾年請問一下他而且都已經是判決確定查完的案子那有什麼篡證的問題嗎然後第二個如果他今天說你讓我出去我也同意被限制出境我也同意帶電子腳鐐你要我每天去派出所報到那這個有逃亡甚至他在裡面關了20年他根本沒有錢逃亡啊那請問一下他有 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7628.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7648.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
閹滅證據或逃亡的可能性很大嗎?請問刑庭法官我們就不講個案了如果不加以委員剛剛所提到的一個事實來觀察的話關了二三十年之後案件已經確定了你說要勾串這個部分的確是有點困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7649.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7670.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
他自己說逃亡部分那可能就是人性的問題啊如果我犯的是一個重罪也許我沒有錢因為有錢並不代表我不會逃亡我懂所以聽著我剛剛有說他說我願意你給我限制出境我願意帶電子腳鐐我願意每天到派出所簽到三次這個都是實務常見的嘛那他根本沒有錢坐遊艇出去沒有錢坐車出去 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7672.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7688.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
那請問一下他有重大的逃亡可能性嗎這個還是要個案的判斷因為他跟其他家庭的連結或是其他的情形我可以接受你這個答案但是這個問題就是連我也沒有辦法一口咬定他有重大可能性嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7689.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7714.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
所以這些人有可能就不被羈押嘛那當這些死刑犯回歸到普通法院的時候變成被告身份唯一能夠關他的就是羈押就只有這個方式但是這37位死刑犯萬一回到普通法院審理完全不符合101條那你說反復十字之餘嗎101之1也沒有啊關裡面關20年你怎麼證明他反復十字之餘所以現行我國羈押的 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7715.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7723.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
要件這三七位有可能我不說全部好了啦就有可能很多人根本不符合所以這個麻煩司法院注意第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7725.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7749.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
我們羈押一個審計就是15個月很有可能在精神鑑定或等等的程序走完已經超過15個月請問庭長有沒有可能這個委員所講的這部分的確是有可能但是我們也在努力我們就是寄望法官能夠積極努力但是實務上面一個審計審理超過15個月的比比皆是我想刑警法官不可能否認這個事實對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7750.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7765.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
如果是羈押中的案件的話行政法官都會優先處理對我懂但是有可能會審理超過15個月這個是可能性的對不對就通案來講我們盡量不要讓他超過15個月對但是是有可能我們只能盡量不要所以這邊就是問題了那再請教那個再請教廳長一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7774.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7797.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
如果檢查總長非常上訴成功那這些人會從收容人的身份轉換為被告對吧沒錯那現在我們能夠關他們我們是叫做收容執行槍決前的收容所以我們可以關著他那當他變回普通法院審理的被告的時候必須羈押才有可能把他關起來對吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7798.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7812.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
那收容到最高法院認為非常上述有理由讓他們變成被告的身份到高院法官裁定羈押這個中間也許有幾個小時的空窗期他如果說我要回家怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7814.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7833.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
這個部分我們據我所了解在民國94年的時候一個台非制124號一個也是因為憲判那當時是憲法解釋582號解釋所引起的原因事實因此而提起的非常上述當時教科法院把最 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7835.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7849.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
非常上述的結果是把最高法院的終局判決跟二審的判決一併撤銷掉當時也有做當時做身份的轉換他把它轉換成再押的被告那由二審來接押在當時的1994年的處理情形這是有前例的 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7850.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7875.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
所以說這個問題就是所以我今天我是點出所有的專業的問題我相信剛剛我提到的三個都是專業的問題那我今天要提出來我是非常希望而且我也很想聽到司法院有解決之道而不想去聽那些側翼律師或那些政客們他總是在那邊胡扯說我們在危言聳聽今天如果我講的任何一個問題不是專業的問題你們都可以打聯我沒有問題所以您剛剛講的就是有潛力可以依循嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7876.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7898.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那是不是我們將來如果萬一那個假總長他有提出非常上述而且成功的話是不是你們就必須依照你說有曾經有因為我還沒有看到這個資料如果有那一定要照這樣做如果沒有那就會發生照我剛剛說的會有幾個小時的空窗這庭長您認同嗎那我們據我所了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7898.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7910.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
目前的最高法院、檢察署這邊還有高院、省級這邊也有在做適當的一些了解跟模擬跟研議我們也提供了相關的資料在94年的相關例子給他們做參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7912.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7939.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
高院審理的話那是最高法院法官裁定羈押嗎?不是不是 一定是二審法官裁定羈押假設要羈押的時候這個當時裁定之後由二審法官來接押但是在三審的時候他的身份已經做了轉換我們從判決書上面所記載的他是寫在押被告事實上他這個是一個判決確定執行中的被告但是在三審的判決裡面已經把它改成因為撤銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7941.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7952.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
撤銷確定判決之後他身份已經做了轉換他不再是執行中的受刑人或是收容人而且轉換成是在押被告因為所謂的程序的復活那是誰預知是在押被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7955.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7979.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
誰遇知他為詐騙?那誰遇知羈押?二審遇知羈押他身份回到在押被告的身份所以最高法院的法官同時認為非常上述有理由同一個時間瞬間高院法官裁定羈押是這樣嗎?不是不是他會把卷證交給二審法院那我的問題就在這裡了最高法院認為他身份回歸到被告到 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7980.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7990.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
二審的法官裁定基拉如果有五分鐘的空檔他跑出去誰有理由攔他五分鐘就好當然他當時是在兼執行的人犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7992.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8016.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
當時在在監執行他轉換成變成在押在押的身份之後他還沒釋放執行我懂你的意思但是我必須跟廳長報告一件事情您剛剛說的是在監執行的人犯他有核發過指揮書有送監執行但是在本案他叫做執行槍決前的收容我知道執行槍決前的收容的收容人變成是被告那這個中間 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8019.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8041.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
這時間差怎麼辦沒關係如果你們要以那一件為基本要來思考怎麼樣去研擬這個新的做法沒問題但是我的責任我是政治人物我的責任就是用專業去點出問題在這裡再麻煩你們思考這個部分要怎麼辦因為我剛說的如果一個的一個變換身份的決定權是最高法院法官一個是否裁定羈押是高院法官兩個會不會有幾分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8043.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8066.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
一分鐘的落差好不好那一分鐘落差被告要跑就可以跑你任何人不能攔他這個部分我們也大概有研議過啦二審法院在釋放之前他可以就通知被告到庭如果他不到庭可能要用想進行拘提的方式來做處理那你通知會有你通知要送達你要合法送達嘛就到監所去送達不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8068.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8083.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
我照委員的意思啦這部分我們會依循協定我跟你講啦最高法院認為他已經案件已經撤銷他就不是收容身份嘛那不是收容身份他就是我讓你門打開我要回家那你不能限制他啊我們沒有法定拘束他的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8085.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8104.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
因為聽長你是刑庭法官你一定懂我在講什麼那我就不花時間跟那些側翼律師溝通了因為他們真的聽不懂我們兩個在談什麼所以這三個問題再麻煩你然後我再請教那個部長部長現在還有幾個問題啦就是說因為很多被告是適用舊的假釋15年的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8106.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8126.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
他們可能會之前已經積壓過很長一段時間了所以他們應該可以折抵蠻久了那這樣子有可能他們假設將來被判無期徒刑的話可能過幾年就可以申請假釋啊那他們現在關在裡面那些死犯基本上表現都很良好那這個的話是不是至少他就符合可以申請假釋的門檻了這部分若撤銷改判無期徒刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8135.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8160.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
即使是可以折抵嗎?對,依法可以折抵因為它可以折抵嘛那這部分我想這部分如果說還沒有修法的話當然是可以我們可以從嚴審核嘛從嚴審核那另外我想我們目前在修法這個修法我們把那個重大的特殊的暴力的這犯罪包括故意殺人我懂部長這塊我知道這塊我知道但是呢我必須跟您講一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8165.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8183.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
不溯及既往的原則還是我們法律人懂得所以你要今天修一個法要求到溯及既往到以前犯罪者都要適用新的規定我想也許有困難除非你對這37位死刑犯法務部司法院你們提出一個專法就是針對這37位死刑犯因為這是我想破頭腦想到的大家就用專法去解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8184.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8201.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
部長因為我從頭到尾我都不跟你們談政治我只談法律的專業那有很多人想把我們今天的討論議題轉換成政治的攻防那我覺得我們不甩他我們就談法律所以今天確實有很多人可能是因為扣掉以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8202.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8228.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
羈押的期間他已經快要可以申請假釋了那只要快要可以申請假釋那將來假釋的評斷標準你當然可以從嚴審核但是就有可能他們假釋出獄的這個機率就跑出來了我今天要點出的是這個問題部長還有另外一個將來你們可能會面對到就是因為收容這個行為將來以前是為了槍決前所以收容他所以沒有折抵刑期這問題反正都要槍斃了 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8229.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8246.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
但是呢在未來因為這些人回過頭去判無期徒刑的話那一定會很多人權團體出來說那收容期間也是限制他自由為什麼不能折禮行起他的形式跟羈押會很類似因為以前收容沒有這個問題嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8248.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8269.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
但是現在變成這樣了 變成收容會變成一個新問題所以可能要麻煩法務部要趕快研擬一下如果將來這些死刑犯的家屬或是很多人權團體突然跟大家吵說他收容期間 有人收容十幾年了可以要記錄刑期的話那這個刑期又會牽動到15年或25年得假釋的這個計算這個是法務部將來一定會面對到 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8275.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8282.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
那我跟兩位報告其實我剛剛提到了這五個點全部是專業的論述的點再麻煩你們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8283.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8312.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
禮卿﹚那如果不禮卿的話這五個點都是這些人將來可能回到社會的可能性都在這裡我們是不認為是會回到社會部長我跟您談法律你跟我談不可能這個是刑事通常救濟者程序這個有別嘛那大概部長你今天講的話全國的檢察官法官都在看您是我檢察官的大前輩大學長我現在依法跟你論法然後你跟我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8313.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8333.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
不可能啊如果這樣子的話因為像那個像剛才委員有提到就是有這個人權團體這邊我想這部分這是在執行前的一個縮容這個這個目前法律目前法律沒有記錄不能折抵嘛對那那個憲判意思8號也是說我們修監律行刑法 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8335.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8357.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
所以我一直說大法官就是因為完全沒有實務經驗所以才會出了一個憲判制解決的問題比創造的問題創造的問題比解決問題多出很多啦就是這樣那我從實務我光是稍微想一下就發現這五個問題真的馬上要解決而且每一個都是法律問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8358.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8385.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
每一個都可以讓法律系的學生或老師可以好好的討論的一個問題啦那部長我知道你也有你的難處你不方便講一些話但我在這邊就必須講這些就是司法實務上面的專業問題必須要解決否則即使只有5分鐘的落差的空窗期被告都可以要求我現在要離開他跑給你追或是像我們剛剛講的根本就不符合我國現行法101或101之1的羈押要件啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8387.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8409.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
那你怎麼押他?法官敢不敢違法裁定羈押?這都是問題那他的羈押能不能寫得很清楚或是我是那些死刑犯的律師我光是跟你打不得羈押就跟你打翻了我可以引出一大堆的判決判例來告訴你為什麼這個東西不能羈押以前的法官都不押憑什麼你現在認為這個人有逃亡之虞所以這都是問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8411.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8414.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
我希望提的幾個東西跟大家講一下那個檢察署署長就麻煩那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8425.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8453.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
要注意一下最近小兒詐騙非常多大概他就是利用那個收包裹的方式收包裹的方式可能就是讓你收包裹繳錢一千多塊然後你繳給超商之後他錢拿不回來最近這個案子非常多非常多人都有來跟我講那很多人都覺得一千多塊被騙就算了他不會去報案因為太麻煩了所以署長要麻煩宣導一下這個部分好嗎然後另外就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8453.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8481.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為這些超商代收的貨款他們都是跟那個通常是跟資訊科技公司合作那你們去調資料兩三個禮拜都公司都還沒有回覆那以現在狀況以前如果他超商撥款給給那個業者的話馬上就轉走那如果依照現在這個所知的時間這麼要這麼長民眾的錢最不會跟那個署長報告一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8481.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8484.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
我跟你們報告一件事他就是利用大家這個心態 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8495.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8514.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
九百一千一千二他真的不會去報案因為報案他還要去做筆錄還要將來可能被傳喚出庭所以大部分人都是算了一堆人跟我談過這個事我問了沒有人報過案所以這會是一個黑數所以我想至於面對黑數我們的做法就是麻煩署裡能夠多宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8516.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8540.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
就是如果不明包裹你要去搜像我也搜過阿他是寄我弟弟的名字阿那我去幫我弟弟代收阿應該要先確認一下包裹是不是你買的啦對對類似像這樣先做這樣的確認先宣導再麻煩你們能夠宣導因為因為會有很多這種黑數大家覺得一千多塊他不想浪費時間去去報案那還有就是那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8543.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8568.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
政期局我一個建議就是你們那個都一起好了我一起講好了因為時間的關係數位因為我們現在詐騙裡面有六成都是那個虛擬貨幣那虛擬貨幣目前你們有來聲明的聲報的是只有26家業者但是我們有超過八成的人的數位貨幣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8569.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8591.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
交易都是國外的交易所那你們完全管不到那這一塊你們還是要趕快跟我講要怎麼辦好不好不然完全沒有管所以我在這邊就直接講因為下禮拜我跟張志文跟林沛講我們會開一個打詐的記者會那我們會想看怎麼樣把民眾的錢能夠找回來因為民眾不在乎被告判多久他只想錢要不要的回來 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8592.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8611.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
然後我們也希望說那個金管會能夠在打詐專法你們是那個負責這個金融聯防機制的那你們要看要怎麼守得住錢然後上次那個金管會主委有跟我說報告裡面有提到有一些其他單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8612.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8614.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8628.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8652.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
的業者請理解一下還有就是指揮中心指揮中心有說到去年6月到今年10月要回了24億的被詐騙金額但是你們要給我一個資料就是說這24億是被告都付完了嗎因為據我所知以及我以前在失誤的經驗非常多人是第一時間跟你和解說要還你但是還了兩期之後就沒有再還過 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8653.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8672.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
所以這24億是真的都講付完了嗎或是以前有多少比例是講好的和解金後來就沒有拿沒有繼續支付那被害人還是被騙然後等於是被第二次騙而且這一次還有政府一起進去跟著被告一起來騙當事人因為當事人以為有政府的保證被告就會還我錢結果和解書簽了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8675.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8699.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
他還兩期之後全部拿不回來那政府有沒有有所作為或協助去取得執行名義還是什麼之類的所以這個東西到底拿回多少錢也必須給我一個報告而不是給我說一個24億要回來因為這是騙人的這絕對我跟你講我在15屆待過不要拿這個來騙我最後就是我要提一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8702.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8722.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
明年的預算的部分因為我們這是預算會期就是預算的部分我們人民去年被騙了88億然後今年我們突然大量的增加防詐的預算到73億所以我希望是有所作為不然88加73國人被騙了161億 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8726.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8755.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
就變成你編的這些預算國人被第二次騙錢啦就之前網路很多人在笑因為看到提73億啊然後有人留言就是哈哈又被騙了那個73億所以不要讓人民有這個想法尤其是那個警政署因為你們的那個花了很多錢6.6億的分析系統還有很多5億的那個一些硬體設備當然我知道這個是因應修法的關係但是可能要麻煩你們還是要有所作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8756.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8762.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
否則就像我剛說的 原來我們被騙了161億不是88億好 謝謝各位 謝謝好 謝謝 我們麻煩下一位請鐘嘉斌委員那因為我們剛 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8778.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8802.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
徐巧欣委員我們剛剛有宣告一個就是在中嘉賓委員執行完畢之後休息五分鐘很早就已經有講了還是你們兩個要對的好 謝謝主席那我們是不是有請政部長法務部政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8806.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8820.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
委員好部長好今天雖然我等一下要問的跟這個調查局有關但是因為現在大家對於這個霸凌的事件呢非常的關心所以呢我還是找我們主管機關這邊法務部來做一個詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8823.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8837.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
因為呢我們這邊又接獲了關於這個調查局很多調查局的這個同仁他們感受到這個霸凌的世界那我覺得呢有必要盡快的來揭露那這件事情呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8838.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8858.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
最早發生在2022年的時候我在直播裡面就有講到新竹調查站的主任林維成也就是當初把余政煌的烤雞打成已等的這一位新竹調查站的主任那他們當時就是在新竹市調站裡面他們有做整個相關的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8859.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8873.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
就在調查局的人員裡面有做相關自己的一個自評就是說我們的主管有沒有霸凌的行為那裡面呢就有包含寫道自己愛應酬又不想被外人當色函就拗站裡的同仁幫忙開車擋酒 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8876.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8903.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
同仁不克出席之後就遭林大主任罵N小時不給回家這種人還能畏居高職、前景堪憂?然後也提到每逢喝醉酒以後就會去執日官室騷擾執日官、辱罵副主任、辱罵據點平時以辱罵幹部為樂所以當時他去霸凌了余政煌他們調查局的學長 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8904.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8933.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
然後還有2021年的9月他們在跟竹科的廠商參敘的時候只因為不滿當天的職域調查官沒有把他安排到主桌所以就在晚上深夜把調查官跟副主任雙雙叫到請示怒罵從晚間9點罵到隔天的凌晨3點整整6個小時還有10月份、12月份攜帶酒精飲料到職域官室林維成卻表示說 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8934.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8953.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
職業官是喝酒沒關係我是主任所以這個調查官後來礙於淩為城市上級就作罷了也曾經一度驚動督察到場勸架有打架的行為儘管這個事件有上報最後不了了之當時在2022年的時候調查局表示針對相關的檢舉已經請督察處介入調查了 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8957.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8962.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
那我想要請問一下2022年就介入調查的大林事件後來的懲處結果為何跟委員報告這一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8967.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8986.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
根據調查局他們的處理的確是由督察處來主動來立案做一個調查後來調查後的確是有不適任的情形後來也調離回主管職務了他調離在112年2月4號調任行業調查處的主任秘書 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8993.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9011 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
他那時候後來是先有調離那個新竹市市長那後來他也被處分了那他現在人在哪裡這部分我不清楚那個現在的職務好那你要回去問調查局因為呢好我們下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9012.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9025.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
看一下同一篇下一張因為呢這個是當時齁這個所有調查局的人員呢對於齁包含是新竹市調查站等等的做的一些評價因為就是在講霸凌的問題喔那這我剛剛講過再下一張 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9028.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9052.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
這個是有更多包含臺北市的調查處宜蘭雲林都有會後我會提供相關的資料給法務部跟調查局也就是說因為卓榮泰院長說7天內要調查完所有我們政府部門相關的霸凌事件但是其實我們調查局的人員他們平常每年都有自填問卷在針對長官有沒有做霸凌相關的事情做評價 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9053.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9076.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
所以相關的這個證據其實都在上面那要請部長跟我們的調查局回去做進一步的調查然後今天為什麼會談這件事情就是因為當這個勞動部的事情發生之後我們看到剛才我所說的這位林維成他過去是新竹市調站的主任他依然固武那導致我們在調查局的群組裡面看到的是什麼包含呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9083.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9100.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
你看看看我們洋洋灑灑的獎懲規定發現幹部只有在督導下級不利時會被懲處沒有懲處督導過大的也提到了當時這件事情有承認霸凌但是呢後來也沒有上新聞然後呢大家都在問如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9101.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9119.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
勞動部的這名這個往生者是以霸凌送檢調那霸凌檢調的人要把他送到哪裡甚至呢大家都在講說現在盛傳這名這個凌維成主任成主任打算呢要被升為副處長那你看到這個整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9122.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9143.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
都是昨天在調查局的群組裡面所討論的內容然後還講到就是說呢他到現在都還是在被圈選為輔導員所以如果您剛剛講說他曾經有霸凌的紀錄有遭到處分而且呢他是這個不適應的那為什麼我們調查局又要勾選他擔任輔導員呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9146.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9153.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
這部分我們再去瞭解再去瞭解 那什麼時候可以給我們回覆?7天內?你現在現在剩下6天因為呢卓榮泰部長說卓榮泰院長說了7天之內要給答案跟回覆嘛那我現在很具體的告訴你昨天整個調查局的群組都在講這位林維成他現在有可能再被外傳說還要去升副處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9169.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9178.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
而且實際上都還有霸凌的行為那過去您剛也說了他的案件被調查之後是不適任的也有處分的結果他現在竟然還被圈選為輔導員到處在輔導我們所謂調查局的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9185.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9190.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
所以這個部分要請這個我們法務部的部長回去之後要調查清楚那不要讓這些過去曾經有霸凌雖然被處分但現在還繼續實施霸凌的人還可以當輔導員繼續以輔導的身份那再次的霸凌我們調查局的人員引起這麼這麼多裡面有1500個調查局的成員所有人都在罵1500個您可以看到這個地方有1500個調查局的成員在裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9215.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9234.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
裡面一大堆人都是針對這一位林維成來做批評說他有霸凌的事實所以請法務部一定要回去謹慎的再度重啟調查而不是過去調查完了就覺得好像已經沒事了因為這個是持續中的霸凌案件可以做到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9235.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9261.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
這部分我再請調查局來處理好 那請問需要多久時間回覆我們盡快盡快應該是六天因為這個卓榮泰部長院長的這個規定所以麻煩六天之內給我們初步的回覆因為卓榮泰院長在公開的場合說每一個特會裡面有霸凌情況要在七天之內做回覆昨天是第一天今天是第二天所以你們只剩下六天的時間麻煩在六天的時間按 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9263.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9284.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
卓榮泰院長的要求根本不是我要求的如果是我個人要求會給你們一個月但是呢今天是卓榮泰院長要求在七天之內每一個部會跟局處都要調查出有沒有職場霸凌的問題所以請你們在六天之內給我們初步的回覆今天是今天我才知道是今天來起算入就是七天 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9284.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9294.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
不是嘛 那左翁派院長意思不是這樣你自己去跟院長講不是 這個事情你自己去跟院長講這不是我說的如果所有人都是知道說起算七天的話那左翁派院長昨天他何必講這些話呢所以這不是我說的我說 如果是我會給你一個月我昨天才踢爆了外交部也有相關的霸凌我是給他們一個月的 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9308.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9319.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
結果下午我就聽到卓榮泰院長說7天之內全部的公家機關都要調查完畢所以不好意思你們真的剩6天不要怪我 要怪 怪院長好不好 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一個我們請鍾嘉賓委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9338.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9359.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
主席、在堂委員、先進列席、內政部機關署長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生先請內政部的馬次長還有中署長還有速發部的陳副署長那後面再請法務部的鄭部長那在開始之前謝謝我們昭偉還是要跟昭偉表達一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9360.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9374.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
因為這次我們打詐當中訴發部相當重要那我也知道以我們委員會的慣例大概非本委員會的部會的首長是不會來所以今天內政部次長來我可以接受但是訴發部居然只是副署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9375.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9399.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那我也知道數位產業署目前是代理署長可是好像沒有邀請到數位部次長來有點可惜啦不然待會的質詢其實以副署長的位階恐怕不太好回覆那這點跟召委表達一下因為這個問題這麼重要那打詐不是只靠內政部的打詐專法也不是靠法務部而已還是要靠數發部啦好那我就下來開始我的質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9400.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9415.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
那麼我今天的質詢其實先從另外一個開始就是移工的管理要優先補足專勤人力另外打詐犯罪溯源要把洗環法應該把那個平台納管我們來先看一下請教次長你認為移工的管理是不是台灣的重要課題 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9417.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9434.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
馬次長非常重要你看嘛我們目前移工大概在跟犯罪的有兩個關聯一個是移工本身尤其失聯移工他可能是犯罪者下手的對象但是移工本身也可能是去加害其他移工的一個犯罪者你同意嗎完全同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9435.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9462.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
那麼對於這些失聯的移工為什麼他很容易成為加害者跟被害者呢因為他失聯的意思是什麼他逃避主管機關的查緝對不對所以他就是進入了地下通訊也是會隊也是那請問你認為目前以你來評估我們移民署專勤對他的外勤查緝業務有多少可以透過AI來取代又有多少是醫療用有經驗的人才可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9463.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9485.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
跟委員報告我們查緝業務幾乎都是要用人力所以沒有辦法用AI來取代除非是後台的資料分析是這樣好署長你同意部長、次長這樣認知嗎是同意好我們現在看好但是呢我們也看到移民署啊你不是只有專勤隊查緝這些失聯移工你還包括說旅客的運量持續增要請國進大隊啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9486.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9513.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
要來增加員額﹚包括我們在111年行政院合徵給你們桃園國際機場30個人有沒有你們這30個人都補足了嗎是這個是對 有沒有補足有給你員額不代表補足啊社長你要注意啊行政院對你們好但是有沒有補足我不知道後來呢因為在以後啊又給你們了你們又要求要怎麼樣直僱為什麼這次是直僱因為你們有量僱員要增加68個 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9515.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9537.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
市長你知道這68個行政院後來有給嗎總共齁前面是給30個是兩年期的期限性的這個約顧人員那後面給的是30個是正式的對就是我後面寫的嘛在今年的2月5號呢又同意增加30個人是全數同意喔市長嘛市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9538.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9566.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
行政院在很慷慨我現在請問次長這樣子表示行政院非常支持我們移民署的業務我現在問次長啦好那你來看一下但是次長我很可惜的我問我關心你們的第四代的通關系統為什麼因為全國的國際主要機場他在通關的人力的人證驗證人別驗證大量使用我們數位化的智能的機器來取代當時問了副組長在今年3月的時候有沒有加強自動通關 有 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9568.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9589.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
後來呢我問到的自動通關進入怎麼樣?內政部呢?市長你知道目前第4代自動通關進入如何?委員報告我們目前已經完成43座建設好43座那多久能夠全部建設完成?明年底之前好那建設完成之後你們現在的壓力人力壓力需求就減低了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9590.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9605.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
有了自動通關是不是你們人力就壓力就減低了我跟委員報告齁這個壓力的來源最主要是在108年疫情之前我現在不是問你108年我說你自動化之後這些通關的機器設備給你的如果壓力那麼減輕我們行政院幹嘛花這筆錢是 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9607.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9635.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
是嘛 要減輕嘛 所以我要告訴你啦 次長你看一下我們在2021年有66萬個移工 到現在呢有75萬個但是我們專勤隊的人力啊 還減少多少還減少29個啊 還減少19個啊你覺得專勤隊的人力 次長你覺得這樣夠嗎大量不足大量不足 好 那我現在要告訴你 要做個決斷因為行政院不是生產老公公 你們要多少就有多少現在已經給移民署增加了60個了 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9637.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9660.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
現在呢 我要向你們 你回去要檢討一下如果說你們的自動通關已經減輕了國境的驗證集合人力的壓力給你的這60個元額 要設法去補強我們移民署專勤隊現場集合 外勤集合沒辦法用AI 沒辦法用人工智慧取代的 你同意嗎好 可以了 謝謝 署長請回我們請看下一頁好 現在我們來講詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9666.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9695.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
不只用點數詐騙洗錢還有未成年的性剝削我們看到了有什麼呢我再舉例給你看那個數位部、數法署副署長請上來直播頻道的點數要怎樣要有一定的金額的消費才能外出見面還有遊戲點數用未成年來洗錢未成年他受到兒少的保護還有用虛擬的點數要進行一個性影像的滿足好來部長、次長請你看一下這個現在因為我前面問過你下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9696.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9712.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
其實違法的金流他用遊戲點數來移轉的問題出在哪裡我們的點數上要KYC他對誰KYC被害者就是付錢的人他可以買點數另外違法交易的他知道我這個不行我在創意私房我要去交易 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9713.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9737.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
被害者我們稱之為他覺得他做的是合法的事情他買合法的點數違法交易的人他知道他做的這個事情不能讓人家知道他去買遊戲點數點數上都知道但是進入了直播平台進入了創意四方的網路平台犯罪分子他用人頭去跟他做接收你覺得KYCK得到嗎K不到嘛然後遊戲點數上能知道點數轉移給誰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9744.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9760.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
市長是不是這樣子?報告委員這個都轉到境外去了對,好,所以怎麼辦呢?我們看一下有沒有機制可以不安眼我們往下看我問了速發部我在今年10月的時候交通委員會問了部長他說點數在平台上沒辦法追蹤的交易用的他沒辦法用交易的洗房法、納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9762.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9786.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
沒有辦法追蹤,我們用洗髮法納管,署發部支持嗎?部長說支持啊。副署長,副署長,你們是產發署嗎?素產署啦,素產署啦。你們部長支持用洗髮法納管平台來對於這些無法追蹤的交易的點數。結果呢,你們給我的答案是什麼?在現有的網路平台進行點數交易,現有的機制就可以處理了,不需以洗髮法納管。 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9788.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9816.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
你們可以要求據點數交易的網路平台及直播平台確實執行KYC來防止詐騙洗錢跟未成年的性剝削嗎?你們做得到嗎?我們會努力會努力就是做不到次長這個洗髮法當中的這個查緝、犯罪防治是不是你們在管的?你們這個法令有沒有給書發部去管這些詐騙的金流?有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9818.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9847.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
包括報委員洗房法是法務部主管不是我不說洗房法啦我是說的詐欺犯罪危害條例啦是是你們管的嘛你可能還不曉得要怎麼去處理我給你看第三方支付啊淪為博弈的網站詐團洗船洗船的幫兇啊怎麼說呢水房呢用人頭公司用假文件未判合法交易去交易但是我們這些都用第三方交易但是第三方的支付服務呢有一個量能登錄對不對書發部是不是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9848.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9858.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那根據你們訂的第三方支付服務業防制洗錢及打擊滋恐辦法有沒有辦法找到讓他們把這個監理上的洞堵起來有了嗎 為什麼還是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9861.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9882.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
這個部分如果說有監管上面的問題其實我們就是一直希望它能夠盡量的不會有所以我們其實有做了很多的行政檢查然後行政調查然後目前也是鼓勵三資業者就是成立工會我們要做一個就是公私聯防的部分來啦次長我覺得你需要警政署的幫忙黃署長請過來幫次長往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9885.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9905.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
處法部說第三方支付是屬於類特許行業次長你知道什麼叫類特許行業嗎報告委員這個不了解好我們來告訴你什麼叫類特許行業第三方支付是類特許行業特許行業就是金管會管的那麼因此在我們的詐欺 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9906.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9926.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
犯罪危害防治條例在今年的7月公布後我們就授權了那麼他這裡面規定只要這些人員沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗錢防治服務量能登記就不可以提供第三方之物請問這個所謂的中央目的事業主管機關是哪一個你知道嗎?次長你知道嗎?報告委員這個部分應該是在金管會速發部回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9935.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9951.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
第三方支付是速發部、金管所以到現在行政院、內政部、速發部跟金管會還在搞不清楚所以速發部有預告第三方支付服務業疑似涉詐客戶的認定及控管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9952.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9972.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
處理辦法草案﹖有沒有說話部有沒有告訴你們的副署長有沒有我們其實非常的感謝就是有這個打詐四法因為有賦予我們任務就是我們會針對這個打詐四法裡面其中一個兩個法案然後針對第三方的部分我們有一些執法訂定那魔法是不是升內政部管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9973.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
10000.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
母法是內政部給的?是你嘛 次長一直很用點頭嘛他們給你的權利嘛你有沒有用來 次長你看一下怎麼用這是目前速發部訂出來的草案第4條 得第5條 得第6條 得7、8、9都是得得得得得次長 就你所知道如果你的母法給他授權了他執法寫得是什麼意思?也可以不做啊有沒有強制力? |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
10001.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
10022.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
次長你覺得這樣的執法有沒有強制力報委員這個我們回去跟事務發布確認一下當然這不是你的業管範疇啦事務發布可不可以告訴我們的次長內政部這麼的支持授權他的署管法給你們你們為什麼得得得來協助一下委員好吼有關於你們今天沒有次長來你們很吃虧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
10023.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
10043.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
報告委員,因為我們相關的這些執法現在預告的部分德的部分有一些部分是因為我們的打詐專法裡面母法裡面就已經是寫德了哦,說得好,講到重點了,次長有沒有聽到你們的打詐專法、三位法的授權是用德,我們趕快要看,來看一下專法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
10045.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
10068.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
詐欺犯罪危害房子條例第34條第三方置戶業者對於客戶應善盡注意義務應強化確認客戶身份並得對於客戶採取機遇的審查、延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或者提供服務的措施次長有沒有發現問題了你很支持樹花部他們怎麼能定得因為母法就是得啊怎麼辦剛公佈的喔7月底剛公佈的喔怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
10073.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
10097.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這個部分我們跟訴法部設法來強化來那個法務部長要請你來了35條啊要怎麼辦呢他說第一項他這個35條講的由數位經濟相關產業主管機關這應該就是訴法署或者訴法部及法務主管機關共商去定之啊部長你覺得這個法務主管機關是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10100.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10116.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
我們會持續跟訴發部來就第三份質問所以我因為要做結論了啦其實因為上位法的制定行政院很積極我們立法院也很努力的去審議很短的時間的通過但是通過之後發現有沒有不足部長有沒有不足有不足嘛社長你們這個法要不要繼續的精進 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10125.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10130.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
你點頭要嘛 是不是好 對著麥克風說我們內政部要繼續精進詐欺犯罪危害防治條例 是不是這樣要不要精進要精進嘛 那法務部部長、政部長30條這裡面你們有責任嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10141.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10169.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
我們會協助那個數發部跟那個政部來處理所以如果因為上位法的制定起前述的處理辦法能夠有效的管理這方置物業呢如果不行要怎麼調適要怎麼調適所以今天我們在這裡關心打詐四法通過了法過了不就是沒事了法上面還有一些不足的地方實務上我們數發部做不到嘛他只能得嘛因為上位法只有得嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10170.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10195.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
法務部要幫助速發部趕快來研擬怎麼補漏好不好這個我們來協助次長這樣知道原因了沒有法是你主管的你們內政部主管的用是誰在用速發部要去做事前的一些規管然後我們的內政部警政署才有辦法當犯罪發生的時候循線從網路平台他的洗錢去追蹤金流才有辦法抓到啊是不是這樣子好最後的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10196.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10218.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
請研議防止透過據點數交易的數位網路平台及直播平台進行詐騙、洗錢或者是未成年的性剝削的方案。」那這個要幾個單位來弄?內政部主導好不好?內政部可不可以?可以嗎?那法務部跟司法部一起加入可不可以?一個月呢可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10219.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10246.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
都點頭都可以齁副署長回去告訴你們部長我問過他在交通委員會承諾我你們底下的人說不用你們回去到底是誰聽誰的回去檢討一下今天次長沒有來我不曉得到底是部長被蒙蔽了還是我們底下執行機關認為無所謂這個要是發生在法務部政部長就慘了發生在內政部我們劉部長就辛苦了所以我希望這個事情書發部要好好的跟內政部跟法務部來配合可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10247.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10255.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
好 可以喔 謝謝 謝謝我們部長、次長跟副署長 謝謝大家謝謝那我們現在休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10264.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10274.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
我知道所以我才說今天來的沒有次擋就沒辦法啊這補聽你如果你寫就調文寫就練啦你跑不去我也沒辦法你們部長講的跟你們法務的很不一樣明天來跟我們主席換名單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10281.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10288.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
對對就是你這想起來很帥可以很安慰這哪算安慰我們中環的我們都是中環的基地我來我來我來我來我來我來我來 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10309.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10328.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
最好算是這裏,這裏就不行了你看嘛,天氣啊,過去已經,天氣好耶,金融會都支持了我來想想,你有來沒有,好,這個是好秀 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10338.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10340.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
事務委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10357.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10365.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會、行政院打擊詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10380.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10381.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
有加了有加了 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10395.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10403.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
對馬鈴薯的補償和工作人員的補償就進入內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會內政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10415.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10419.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
以遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10431.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10439.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10451.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10469.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑不叫酒吧﹑ |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10476.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10481.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
以遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10505.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10523.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
行政委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10531.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10552.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10559.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10584.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
有何疑惑﹗為何不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法?有何疑惑﹗為何不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法? |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10587.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10603.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
行政部部長、立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會、行政院打擊詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10610.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10618.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
同時遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10630.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10633.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
在法法案發生在通訊傳播委員會上申請三百六千元,並且准判五十萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10644.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10656.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
打詐四法、打詐五法、打詐六法、打詐七法、打詐八法、打詐九法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法、打詐十法 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10680.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10701.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
有限公司及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員及公務員 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10711.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10730.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
行政委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10736.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10742.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
而不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10755.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10771.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法不遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10782.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10799.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
有詐騙及打詐移民署署長、內政部部長、內政部委員會、行政部長、內政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會、行政部委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10802.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10811.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
無論如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法無論如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具．及打詐四法 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10840.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10842.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
好,我們現在繼續開會那接下來我們請吳之瑤委員進行詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10852.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10855.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
我今天要來搶救打詐預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10879.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10900.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
如果我們的財化法被修正通過了我們可能會是面臨一場財政的大災難很多中央所權屬的預算被下放到地方但是錢被挖走了權力跟事權沒有統一沒有下放所以在打詐會大打折扣這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10905.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10934.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
表格我歷次在質詢有關打詐我都會拿出來也就是詐欺罪現在已經是個刑案之首沒有錯嗎而詐欺罪當中的電信詐欺的恐嚇案又是最多達6乘3那就今天兩個部會的報告我們都可以總整來觀察到青少年跟外籍移工就成為打詐非常重要的防治對象下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10935.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10947.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
打詐四法雖然通過了上路了我們賦予了打詐一個更強的更有力的防禦工具但是呢它的成效會大打折扣我首先請NCC的陳處長 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10950.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10967.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
NCC的人事同意權目前還停擺那我們看到卓院長會重提人選但是在野黨主導的NCC組織法把所謂的延任條款給刪除了以至於我們這個嚴重的會延宕高達104項業務當中打詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10974.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11000.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
佔了很多項馬尤其我剛剛說的電信詐欺是詐欺罪當中的六成三又剛剛說外籍移工是針防的重中之重外籍移工他用的那個移工卡那個電信卡能不能夠對到使用者跟人這都是重中之重欸那如果NCC的人事同意權持續的受阻對於打詐的影響哪些業務沒有辦法推 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11003.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11028.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
報告委員有關於打詐的部分主要還是詐欺防罪危害防治條例的部分的相關有關電信服務電信事業嗎電信的相關的執法通常也在已經完成相關的立法的程序那有關於打詐的業務裡面如果沒有涉及到提到委員會審議的案件的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11029.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11058.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
是不會受到影響你們現在要啟動一個所謂業客模條款就是說有些部分用委員的諮詢會就可以來替代是不是可以盡可能想方設法把打詐相關的業務就用這個業客模條款來因應否則我非常不樂見NCC的人事同意權一天不通過你們的打詐在NCC協力的電信事業的協力上就會有很大的空窗跟停擺 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11059.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11073.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
包括委員就是在打詐的部分目前都沒有要提到委員會審議那怎麼辦那全部都受影響了就是行政程序就可以處理都可以成確定是好那很好希望這真的是好消息是 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11074.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11088.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
一定要讓所有打詐的相關作為因為你們電信業的這個三證條款嘛這些應當都能夠提早營銀就已經完成相關的法制程序所以後續只有行政公司的主辦好 那我的心可以安一半好 下一頁 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11090.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11106.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
如果財化法被搬走了6612億中央可用的財源只剩下4159億我們各個部會站在這裡的有法務部有內政部我們的非法定支出都會受到影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11108.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11130.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
所以我反對這種分配不正義、事權不統一、財政不紀律、配套完全沒有提出的財化法的修正它造成的災難從法務部、內政部、警政署、包括訴發部、包括調查局、包括NCC一個都逃不掉你們都是受災戶啊!下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11131.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11153.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
再下一頁來我們來看看警政署請署長跟次長可以回答這是你們提供給我的如果說才化法錢被挖走了在警政署的部分高達360億的非法定支出當中很多是新興計劃就會受到波及 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11154.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11180.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
打詐查閉是一大類影響最大的最大條的就是一個45億的網路科技運用精進計畫另外呢打詐之外我們的治安裝備升級不管是軟體硬體也都有五大項的預算受到波及請問署長或次長誰可以回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11181.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11204.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
我這邊整理數字正確嗎?如果被影響了這麼多,這樣被安裝?我這個就很麻煩了未來如果說很多這個預算是先行而且是中央要做的是沒辦法分散到各地方政府去執行了這會造成一個大災難因為比如講像第一項的這個網路流量的一個流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11205.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11231.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
這個是因為打詐四法通過之後應用法律必須要去建置的一個設備要去做偵查犯罪的設備那這個部分就是在這個電信三大業者要去製作前端還有我們這個六大的一個一個一個治安的系統製作後端那如果說這個如果沒有沒有沒有過的話那這個對的打詐是會有大打折扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11232.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11237.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
你們要大聲把這樣的訊息說給社會聽因為警政一條邊這些預算是中央來執行尤其打詐的部分打詐四法如果連帶的預算受阻了預算被搬空了而地方又沒有辦法把這樣的事權下放我們的地安、打詐都是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11257.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11277.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
要把這樣的聲音傳散出去更重要的是你們也要未雨綢繆找到可行的權宜的措施來 下一頁政部長 財化法二修之後你們法務部也成為重災戶我整理出來的法務部部本部 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11278.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11296.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
剿政署乃至於調查局加起來受影響的非法定支出有136.6億而當中跟打詐四法成立之後打詐相關的預算高達28.8億每天每當來部長怎麼辦因為法務部系首屬機關都是屬於中央機關那這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11306.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11323.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
採訪法這部分對中央這部分的經費預算對這部分的確是有影響我們是蠻擔心的剛才有提到就是以調查舉為例那個購置網路流量記錄的那個分析系統五億五億那是跟那個警政署我沒分但那是屬於打詐的流量 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11324.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11345.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
但是打詐是純打詐的一個費用所以這部分我們蠻擔心這個有做一個擠壓我們希望是我們是全力是在嚴辦打詐還有毒品等犯罪我們不希望就是有這樣受到一個影響沒有錯 你看法務部本部我們補助毒品防治特別收入基金6.6億這部分嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11346.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11375.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
也受影響乃至於我們要支援各地的高檢、地檢署來辦理各類的刑事案件他的業務費21.1億也就是我們要替很多的助理、檢察官來這個過勞的狀況來解勞然後來給予一些津貼補助的相關經費全部都受影響而這不是地方政府能夠做的事嗎這個像檢察處理這部分的確是初步可以暫時解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11376.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11391.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
就做一部分紓解檢察官的工作的一個負擔尤其像我們這些打詐的案件的確是還在處在高峰期那我們也是希望說這部分能夠多考慮到我們中央機關的這些的預算的窘迫 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11393.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11400.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
有權需要錢嗎?是權要統一我希望你們也努力把這個聲音傳散給社會知道也要加強遊說我們的朝野立委我相信多數立委還是支持打詐支持治安防治一定要讓立委們知道如果才化法這樣子的掏空了中央的執行經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11421.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11436.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
連同事權沒有辦法統一的來跟地方分擔的話那大家都受影響而我要說今天站在我面前的不管是警政署的業務或是法務部的業務這些顯然都不是地方政府能夠執行的下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11439.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11453.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
這就是剛剛說的網路流量記錄的偵查預期效應這個資料庫45億編載警政署5億是法務部這就是我們這一次打詐四法非常重要的 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11454.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11476.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
要能夠建置這樣一個網路流量的資料庫才能夠有利於我們去做電信類的這種打詐案件的偵訪這真的是大事不容小覷我們希望《財化法》的災難不要波及了打詐跟治安防護的工作下一頁數法部其實也沒有辦法倖免於難 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11479.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11507.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
其實金管會也有啊對於打詐四法當中的金流要去查查洗錢受發布就有3.6億的防詐通報查詢與數位信任應用發展的經費受到影響而調查局要查查金融資料AI分析的平台2.7億都受影響把聲音傳出去下一頁最後一頁我們在對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11508.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11536.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我們這一屆期大家都關心基層檢察官的過勞包括我們的招委他來自於檢察體系大家都為基層檢察官努力的發聲爭取預算如果才化法惡修了我剛剛列出這一筆21.1億來協助地方來辦理不管高檢、低檢辦理他的業務或者是來補貼所有的檢察官助理的經費 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11538.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11539.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
全部都受影響。」 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11540.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11569.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
是不是是那個謝謝委員的關心那我想基層檢查官的確是過勞那賠償的辛苦有時候辦一個專案三天三夜都沒睡覺所以結果再當檢查我就會一大早跑去問你還活著嗎所以我就覺得對啊所以檢查官沒有中央檢查官地方檢查官嗎全部都是我們法務部要來協助的嘛要來安排擴大照顧的最後一頁所以我們搶救打詐的預算搶救治安的預算大家一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11570.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11598.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
我們要呼籲再呼籲搞政治的鬥爭也不要犧牲基層執法的工具我在這裡非常的語重心長我希望各部會大家強化對於國會的遊說因為治安工作打詐工作這些還有司法偵辦這真的不是地方政府能夠分擔的業務我們為全國人民來著想謝謝主席給我時間謝謝大家辛苦一起加油謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11600.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11628.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
謝謝那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言主席有請部長麻煩部長委員好部長你剛又在跟吳思堯一搭一唱啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11629.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11653.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
又在講什麼財化法會去侵奪你們的司法單位的那個預算上次已經跟你講過了不要隨便配合趙瑤王上次吳思瑤跟你們一搭一唱說我干涉個案你已經打臉他了現在就來講財化法財化法是不是中央集權又集權該修你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11655.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11683.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
這部分是 有沒有修 我想是這是長久討論的一個問題我告訴你這句話賴清德講的啦是賴清德講的啦財化法今天就是打破今天中央集權又集錢的一個狀況我說真的今天在後面聽吳斯堯講我也非得講不可第一個早期中央跟地方的所謂的經費是六成對四成嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11685.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11706.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
現在已經變成75%對25%確實如賴清德講的啊中央集權又集錢啊造成很多地方政府今天財政困難很多建設推不動第二個呢同時也讓中央政府在很多的預算上就會產生浪費的問題啊到處蓋文職館為什麼不把錢當錢嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11710.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11733.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
今天你跟我講財化法像我就舉例子像我們政府又超收稅收4千億啊財化法今天就是健全地方的財政也去糾正過去今天民進黨政府他在集權又集權的過程當中很多預算分配不公平的問題所以跟你打詐預算什麼政能你打詐預算到底什麼關係啊部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11737.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11751.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
你今天政府、監察院那些浪費的出國的錢砍一砍你今天民進黨做大外宣養育媒的錢砍一砍不夠你打詐預算嗎今天打詐預算我們立法院要刪你嗎為什麼今天可以影響到你的打詐業務財化法修正會影響到你打詐業務嗎會不會部長告訴我啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11763.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11774.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
當然我們是擔心整個因為我們預算不夠的一個擔心欸現在財化法還在審欸什麼預算不夠你這不浪費的錢吐出來絕對不會不夠啦不是嗎你現在要預設財化法今天讓你打詐業務退不進去你去配合吳士堯、吳兆堯一搭一唱我本來懶得提他啦這幾道聽到我覺得也受不了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11791.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11793.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
沒辦法嘛 愛造謠我就是要打臉他今天才化法的問題很簡單你政府中央部分你該要有的預算立法院一樣會審阿 一樣會給阿但是你如果浪費預算我們就砍阿砍來給你法務部做打詐經費用阿阿怎麼會去滴答一唱說才化法會影響你們打詐的預算聽不下去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11821.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11841.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
第二個我要再問部長我曾經說過大法官的憲法判決就是配合民進黨黨綱的實質廢止判決什麼叫實質廢止我給了一個很明確的標準就是在新澤總統在2028年5月19日卸任之前不會有任何一個死刑被執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11843.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11870.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
我想請問您齁在賴清德現在齁已經上任半年了啦只剩三年半未來三年半的任期內你有可能簽出死刑的執行令嗎?這個只要合乎那個先判意旨的那個受刑能力那我們認為是可以我告訴你啊這個我已經聽你講也是一百遍了我直接跟你講就不會了就不會那我也說過啊我希望你打臉我啊我們就來看看你會不會簽死刑執行令我告訴你一個都不會 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11871.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11894.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
這就叫實質廢死我再想請教您請問大法官做出實質廢死判決之後已經多久了9月20兩個月了嘛對不對那我想請問你37位死刑犯有多少人提出非常上訴了目前是沒有目前沒有那非常上訴要多久之內要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11895.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11915.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
這個沒有那個有些是在整個修法有些是又依照憲判意思那個憲判意思我只問你多久之內要提出來有沒有實現嘛沒有沒有期限阿喔沒有實現喔只有有三位只有一個那我問你阿沒有實現阿他說他就一直不提非常上述那你實行也不用執行的意思是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11917.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11938.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
這個還是現在是在審查中啊審議中啊什麼叫審查中審議中就是37個死刑案我問你一個問題嘛照你說今天非常上述他只要不提那不提的狀態我不提10年你有辦法執行死刑嗎你告訴我有沒有辦法你會不會執行死刑這個是還有最高檢在各案帶上好了好了我告訴你我真的又受不了了會議詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11939.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11959.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
我們請中線主席這本來就是在最高檢控剛剛我們的部長講說這個非常上述沒有提的期限啊那我跟妳講10年我不提非常上述這10年不用執行死刑這個意思嗎不正面回答我我們還是要遵照憲判的意思來做一個審議我的問題是法律問題不是問你什麼問題如果我簡單解釋一下就是說這次憲判出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11966.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11989.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
的非常上述確實是沒有申請的期限限制這沒問題但是那個死刑執行依據刑法84條死刑執行是有限制的那在94年7月1號修法84條修法前是我印象中30年那現在新法是40年所以你要看這個這三七位有沒有人是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11991.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12004.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
94年7月1號以前要執行的如果是的話就是用30年否則大部分應該是用40年請問部長有沒有到30年跟40年的 沒有嘛 有嗎 有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12008.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12032.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
目前是沒有沒有嘛我才說實質廢死難怪沒有我真的直接跟沒有沒有現在沒有實質廢死喔不是啊我要告訴你事情本來就是和諧沒關係你要回頭打翻前面我跟你講實質廢死定義我的實質廢死定義我已經講過了你任內不會簽一個死刑執行就是實質廢死如果你不認同這個定義就是我尊重你你是要跟我講你會不會簽一個死刑執行現在你已經告訴我你不會了你知道為什麼嗎我告訴你來部長部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12037.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12061.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
我告訴你你剛剛其實已經回答你已經跟我回答不會了你知道為什麼嗎我告訴你你的結果就是不會為什麼很簡單你剛剛跟我講今天申請非常上訴沒有期限然後只要沒有剛剛今天滿足吳宗憲主席剛剛講的那個所謂30年跟40年期限的話我只問你嘛現在這些死刑犯他不申請非常上訴是不是最好的訴訟策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12064.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12066.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
以30年標準還差幾年?數學問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12094.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12119.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
那是一個行刑前時效的一個問題對啊11年吧數學問題你都不回答我我不要逼我會議詢問嘛那我就跟你講今天他不提非常上訴就不會執行死刑了問題解決了藉他歡喜了民進黨當萬歲了你今天告訴我的啊所以我更跟你確定你的任內不會簽一個死刑執行令因為只要他不提非常上訴照你的邏輯喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12123.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12139.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
好我問你邱和順他10年內不提非常上訴你有辦法執行實行嗎?現判意思並沒有說一定要我不講現判意思我問的是你的法定權利我只問一個明確的問題連這都答不出來來我請問揮詢問主席這真的太明確的法律問題邱和順他跟我講19年邱和順如果比如講10年啦4年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12150.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12156.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
他不提非常上述你法務部有辦法執行實行嗎?那個提非常上述是憲判意思是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12157.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12163.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
因為被告隨時是可以申請非常上訴所以他如果拖著不申請那法務部也不簽執行命令的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12181.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12193.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
那確實是就是拖在那裡那另外一個就是說如果法務部有意思要簽的話就趕快提非常上訴那又會又卡住好來來來沒辦法執行好你會趕快提非常上訴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12194.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12219.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
這個不是我在決定對嘛這個是這個是現在好啦我告訴你啦來來來最高檢查署在審核這個我當然知道是檢查總長嘛我還要你教這個一個一個我們行政規則本來就是有最高檢先我告訴你部長到現在而且憲判議事也是來來我告訴你時間也是有限我只問你一件事情事實問題加你的權責問題邱和順 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12223.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12252.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
他不提非常上訴他四年內不提非常上訴你能不能跟你會不會簽死刑執行令你能不能簽有沒有什麼條件滿足之下能簽他這個字要只要合乎死刑執行規則還有審核那個那你就是會嘛對不對就是會囉那現在是在最高檢察署審核中嘛我沒辦法我還沒有看過那個案件嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12253.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12258.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
這個目前...你現在告訴我審核完就會簽了是不是這個還要再審核來來來我跟你講齁我要問齁今天齁有30個評議部已經銷毀了嘛我們跟吳宗憲召委去考察嘛對不對關於死刑過去的評議部嘛對不對是不是37個有30個銷毀了嘛這是司法院得來來來我們請司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12285.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12314.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
委員好有7個你們說已經是查清楚是一字決判決死刑嘛對不對這個最高法院給我們的回覆是說有30位的平易部已經銷毀了那有7個是已經確定是一字決的判決死刑嗎他們回覆說回覆最高檢說有可以證明用平易部來證明是一字決這樣子有7個確定嘛7位6件7位7位嘛6件7位嘛那我想請教齁那依照大法官憲法判決的意旨他們可以非常上訴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12317.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12341.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
依照這七個啦已經確定你們確定是一字決判決的死刑的這個是由總長來爭奪依職權來行使我問的不是他要不要行使我是按照大法官的意旨他有沒有權力提非常上訴嘛如果他沒有辦法用其他的證據來證明說一字決的話他可不可以說個案犯罪不是屬情節最重最嚴重大法官憲法判決啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12342.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12365.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
那個還有其他事有,不是只有一字決定還有其他事有所以還是可以提非常上述啊所以換言之為什麼今天我一直跟部長講到現在為止啊你到現在為止對於死刑這實質廢事你一口都說不叫實質廢事我就跟你講嘛你也不敢告訴我說今天你有把握你執行死刑啊然後呢接下來我想請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12368.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12397.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
非常少數提出來之後最高法院有沒有可能判決這個撤銷判決有沒有可能有沒有可能這個涉及到個案啦那個是由個案最高法院來判斷我沒辦法幫最高法院來回答個案我告訴你啦不只是可能啦我先倒過來我問部長你一定又是檢察總長回答我想請問齁我告訴你第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12399.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12422.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
如果剛剛這個問題齁如果他真的提的非常上述阿依照現在大法官的憲法的判決意旨阿你認為今天檢察總長阿他會不會全部都是照樣就提非常上述的你不會回答你說檢察總長的問題啦對不對我幫你回答啦好不好本來就是個案來審查我沒辦法跟總長回答這個問題嗎我跟你講 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12426.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12455.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
按照大法官的所謂的憲法判決意旨他已經跟大家講說他就是要來貫徹民進黨的黨綱實質的意思就是這樣檢查總長檢查總長也不敢不提非常上述我直接跟你講我們就來試試看沒關係還有四年我們就慢慢看那接下來我就要問我們的司法院了我要講什麼我說今天如果真的撤銷判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12457.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12485.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
死刑會不會撤銷判決?有可能嗎?對不對?有可能吧?這個個案當然嘛個案嘛有可能非常上訴博弈也有非常上訴準許我現在講非常上訴如果說今天這個成功以後的話最高法院有沒有可能撤銷?如果是有理由的時候就最高法院就有可能嘛也有可能不嘛你就這樣回答不就結束了那我告訴你啊我跟你講我一樣做第三個預判 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12487.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12506.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
就會撤銷了很多就改判了為什麼因為最高法院最新的案例是什麼司徒獎女老師四次被判死刑最高法院是怎麼說的改判她免死確定怎麼判的他直接說是因為大法官按照大法官憲法一直判的啦改判的啦我跟你講我們就等著看 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12507.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12531.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
第一個來看如果不提飛揚上訴拖著不提今天部長會不會簽執行執行令第一個看第二個如果提了飛揚上訴之後大法官那個檢察總統會不會這個不受理或是駁回他的飛揚上訴第三個如果飛揚上訴提出來之後法院會不會改判免死這三個我告訴你都會往實質廢止方向走以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12533.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12561.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
那我現在做一下會議宣告上午會議時間繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止那接著我們請陳培宇委員進行詢答好謝謝主席有請法務部部長還有司法院邵氏廷法官謝謝邵氏廷副法官謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12569.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12591.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
好 兩位早安 午安 我們來看下一頁我想要直接跟部長討論我當然知道在青少年作為詐騙集團的犯罪工具這件事情法務部跟上市廳其實都有非常多的作為可是我想要跟部長也跟上市廳法官分享另外一個觀點在今年9月公共電視的公視主題秀裡面這個人我們都叫他果果 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12592.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12613.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
果果是一個教育工作者也是一個社工他最近又創了一個很棒的社工支持計畫他在節目上談到一個很重要的觀點其實也是我們長時間在教育第一線現場我們所看到的困境他說所有幸福家庭的元素幫派裡面都有老大對你有期待兄弟對你有義氣如果你以為爸爸媽媽會給你經濟資產或者是獎勵那幫派裡面更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12617.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12632.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
我們很難期待這些有可能進入幫派的家庭真的能夠接住每一個犯罪的青少年也就是說我相信法務部一定知道其實有很多走上犯罪之路的孩子他們的原生家庭出現了困難而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12633.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12652.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
原生家庭出現困難的孩子過往我們可能以為都是中下經濟階層的但近年來有非常多中產階級的孩子也走入這個困境我認為我們在做所有防範工作都必須要回到青少年角度來看這件事情來檢視我們的政策是不是可以真的幫助小孩讓孩子不要走上這一條路 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12653.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12681.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
除了這個果果社工師之外有另外一個觀點也想要跟部長分享來下一頁我們認識一個團體叫逆風劇團他們常年在陪伴很多邊緣的孩子用戲劇展演自己的故事說出自己心裡面的苦他可能是機構的孩子可能是街頭的孩子也可能是學校的孩子那常年以來他們告訴我們很多我們聽了都很心酸的故事例如說很多孩子告訴他們他們其實身不由己因為家裡要養 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12682.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12700.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那個身不由己他們認為往往是因為來不及來不及什麼呢來不及好好生活來不及好好念書來不及讓自己改善所以走不出來幫派一離開只能去做初工、做工地就算現在去做別的工作也很難接受一個月只有三、四萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12701.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12730.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
孩子們問說我去做詐騙集團的工作不也是一種脫貧嗎為什麼這種脫貧是不可以的呢我們當然知道這樣的認知有問題這樣的認知也不符合社會主流的規範但我們要問的是孩子們的困境從剛剛那個社工師到這個逆風劇團因為時間有限我都不再舉例我想要講的是如果我們這些大人從所謂的教育機構或是從法務機構我們想要協助這些孩子一、不要走上 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12731.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12745.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
不好的路,或從不好的路走回來,我們到底做了哪些事情?」在法務部這裡我們看到你們在宣導面你們各地檢署都積極提供師資還有資源協力提升青少年的法律資能,我不會說這是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12747.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12765.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
可是我要問,難道孩子們不知道這些行為是犯法的嗎?我想在場都沒有人不會不知道,其實孩子們也都知道但如同我說的,為什麼他們會走入這個部分?會不會所有快速的賺錢方法都寫在六法全書裡面?甚至有孩子告訴我們,幫派裡面有法律顧問在協助他們理解自己的處境跟可能會遇到的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12766.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12792.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
在防治面我們知道你們跟各部會積極推動預防少年兒童犯罪方案那在院長上任之後還宣示114到117要投入87億我非常好奇目前你們的進度走到哪裡接下來查緝面行事跟行政結合希望共同嚴範青少年涉入詐欺犯罪可是我們到底有沒有用不同的角度來理解為什麼孩子會走到這裡還有你們查緝完之後就把孩子丟進矯正學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12794.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12811.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
孩子們在矯正學校三個月到三年不等的時間出來之後整個社會你們跟教育部有相關的機制接觸這些小孩嗎?事實上是沒有的甚至我們聽到矯正老師告訴我們在割喉案之後孩子們會被快速地審理完相關的案件丟進矯正學校所以矯正學校也快要崩潰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12812.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12831.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
而這都是法務部必須要去面對當你們今天提出這些業務報告的時候你們其實沒有真的可以實質面對這些問題不管是腳校內的孩子或是腳校外還在社會上遊蕩的孩子我當然知道教育的業務有國教署跟教育部但是我也想要拜託法務部我們可以怎麼樣積極的協助這些孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12833.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12851.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
所以最後我想要說我們看到今天的業務報告面對青少年的問題司法院沒有任何的想像你們就只有給我們看到這兩頁我們非常好奇在未來我們打算用114到117那個龐大的經費來做怎麼樣協助孩子的工作這個部分可不可以請部長快速回應一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12854.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12875.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
這個少年事件的處理齁這個在檢察院是沒有角色的齁這全部都是少年法庭少年因為他有先例權他有少年事件處理法那我們真的有就除了起訴有些起訴的那個案件才會到檢察官這樣來所以我們全部都給少年法庭來處理那另外剛才那個我有提到那個矯正署這部分其實只有四間矯正學校齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12877.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12899.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我當然知道可是我要講的是你們在防詐工作裡面你們也做了很多事情對於孩子們可是我剛剛提醒法務部我想這個防詐這部分因為這個少女有時候在學校在社會上這個我想這個不是法務部能夠主管的那當然我們也會跟各部會來到學校或到社區去我們去做一個宣導那我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12900.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12923.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
少年最主要的不是他不知道法律會處罰但是他沒有正常的法治觀念那我想這個是要做一個宣導就跟他做一個矯正回來你可以做很多這不是去加入詐團或加入犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12925.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12948.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我認為孩子們真的不是不知道其實孩子們都知道可是我要講的是剛剛部長你說了有些業務其實不歸你們主管可是我光是以矯正學校為例其實你們在跟教育部的銜接都出現了很多問題可是因為我的時間有限我想要尊重主席跟後續的委員是不是我們辦公室後續可以積極的跟法務部還有相關單位討論我們如何協助這些孩子不管是已經進入體制內或是還在體制外在犯罪的路上的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12950.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12972.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
還有114到117年那個計畫我們也想要看到你們目前規劃的進度我們再來一起討論我們辦公室再找你們開會謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員我很喜歡你那一句說賺錢的方式都寫在六法全書裡面維護社會治安非常重要 是 謝謝好 那下一位我們請林淑芬委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12981.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12986.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
主席各位大家午安是不是來請我們行事廳廳長麻煩廳長委員好廳長上一次我在這裡質詢的時候我記得你說我們討論這個依究的這個糾紛鑑定那你說最後說你們派主責的法官跟醫師司跟醫審會的委員要來跟我們做一些說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
13010.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
13030.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
然後從那時候到現在通通都沒有說明遇到我都會說我要去拜訪你我要去說明可不可以給我時間回應一下對我就是要聽你謝謝委員事實上我們在上個禮拜我們有跟法務部跟衛福部還有其他人還有幾個議事這樣子我這樣子問好了是 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
13031.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
13057.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
從我在院會質詢我們要求行政部門要跟司法院跨院會去討論這一件事情因為整個醫療糾紛的訴訟停擺到現在從法律過你們提的修法案208條的修法到現在七個多月了整個訴訟停擺你知道這個被醫院會退回的鑑定案件有多少件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13059.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13076.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
這部分是在檢察署那邊的,是300多件事實上我們自己調查的是沒那麼多啦就是審判中的是沒那麼多啦我知道目前只有兩件還是三件而已那我跟委員報告一下就卡關卡在檢察署當然送不到你們那裡啊你怎麼把我們整笑了,你當作我們是笑的喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13076.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13082.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那我跟委員報告一下我們事實上安排在11月29號你們開過幾次會協調跨院的協調討論幾次11月29號要做跨部會的那個協商那另外呢我們安排11月27號下午我們跟醫師之前開過幾次會之前也有跟法務部有聯繫過聯繫過沒有開過會 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13102.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13105.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我們本來就因為我們有跟衛福部約時間他們一直說沒有空所以才訂在11月29號要跟跨部會包括醫事室跟新建室所以正式的會議是29號才要開11月29號那我們私底下的拜會部分在11月27號我們會拜會醫事全年會我們會去跟他們說明一些相關的一些鑑定心智的一些相關問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13126.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13131.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
也知道他們也想瞭解他們的顧慮現在不是你們去跟他們宣導餒現在是你要聽人家講什麼餒我們是要去瞭解他們的顧忌跟他們的需求是什麼我們看能不能提高他們我10月1號10月1號我諮詢10月1號你11月29兩個月以後才要開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13147.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13157.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
然後這兩個月中間沒有任何進度你們也相互之間正式的溝通也還沒有正式的溝通過然後正式的會議要11月29這已經很慢了耶你有沒有想過訴訟當事人的權益在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13169.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13188.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
事實上我也跟委員報告一下我們也有去在網路上搜尋有沒有其他機關願意做醫療鑑定的的確是有在南部有個協會有在做那也曾經在參與過法院的一些相關你不要跟我講曾經我現在問你的是現在有沒有人有意願要做如果就 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13192.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13202.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
那我再問你一個問題你叫人家自然人要具名到底是具名比較敢真實的把這個報告裡面鑑定報告比較敢真實寫出來還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13205.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13206.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
具名比較不造假,還是要不具名?理想很豐滿,但是現實很骨感 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13224.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13230.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
理想是很正確的但是做不到現在問題是你們是要保障訴訟當事人的權益讓這個鑑定報告的真實性還有它的公正性要確保可是呢執行起來是沒有了什麼都沒有了沒有鑑定了醫療糾紛連鑑定都沒有了你講的都有道理啦但我現在問你一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13254.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13267.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
醫療糾紛沒有鑑定訴訟審理沒有辦法進行這件事要如何解決?這個我們努力在溝通不是啦!你要努力多久?努力一年、努力兩年、努力三年?我們已經積極的安排他已經在那裡要找人的款項要怎麼辦? |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13268.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13273.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
他所受到的侵害誰要來補償他?我想衛福部也可以幫忙對國家政策的推行你還是機關本位主義衛福部告訴你我當初你修法就是這樣子造成整個法律你講得很有道理但是就沒有人要去跟你感情 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13292.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13313.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
沒有人要幹定整個訴訟審理沒辦法繼續立委在這裡跟你們講了兩個月以後還是沒有進度也沒有溝通我們有安排進度也有溝通事實上在上年然後你在進度和溝通的態度你就是我繼續維持我本位主義我們沒有維持我們本位主義現在我知道我告訴你我告訴你我現在問你一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13318.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13339.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
您講的都很有道理,但是沒辦法的醫生買,醫生會也沒人買,現在要怎麼做?我問的是如何解決這個問題?所以我們才要去拜託、去拜訪那個全國醫事聯合會就我所知,醫事部門的人希望重新再修法,你有可能嗎?你接受嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13340.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13347.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
就目前來講我們可能還要審慎的考慮你就是不願意接受你現在所指的理由你就是說平平專業人士很多啊白狼的專業人士就發動具名是怎麼你們做醫生的沒辦法你們的態度就是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13359.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13376.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
問責制度 問責機能 這是一個立法你就是認為理所當然 現在我問你是執行面你利益良善 而且是正確無誤可是執行面 執行面做不出來要怎麼做啊那你不可以說 醫生說你就一定要來幫我做的是 我們當然不能勉強說我們才說我們要盡力的所以我問你的不是盡力喔你已經盡力 現在已經拖到過去 已經背後了 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13385.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13398.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
被告的你若訴訟當事人說我的案件八個月全台灣每一個每一個訴訟當事人每一個案件都沒有辦法鑑定每個人都拖在那裡跟你沒關係捏因為案件沒到你這裡來是檢察官的不跟董事長的事情捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13405.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13418.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
你現在叫我說跟你無關的火是你們放的現在你們置身度外都跟你無關的事不關己責任都在檢察官和訴訟當事人身上可是就沒辦法鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13422.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13426.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
這個是國事會議的結論我們必須去做落實你現在國事會議的結論你做廳長的人你沒辦法解決我現在就要跟你接受你說你叫國事會議執行你就沒找出解決的問題的方法來我們有期望要找個解決的方案你到現在還在堅持說你沒要修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13443.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13455.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
你沒有修法也可以但是你告訴我怎麼解決我沒有要求一定要修法也許醫審會這邊他們有他們的堅持我們尊重所以你認為醫審會的制度運作是錯誤的嗎我再問你聽長你認為醫審會運作的制度是錯誤的嗎你知道醫審會怎麼運作嗎我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13467.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13477.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
就醫療鑑定的部分先從出鑑醫師出鑑醫師從醫學中心來找出鑑醫師出鑑醫師然後呢對然後再提到醫審會去做實驗醫審會是不是集體共識決是不是可以修改出鑑醫師的意見他是一致決的一致決的對要一致共識在監察院曾經在109年也曾經為了一個匿名鑑定的部分提出一個調查報告也針對醫審會這個部分是調查報告還是糾正報告調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13495.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13498.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
就沒有修正你現在在說一個調查報告我問你啦大家醫生會所有的委員對出鑑報告可不可以下指導期可不可以修正可不可以改是可以的阿你這樣子叫出鑑的醫生去具名公平嗎很抱歉我們有講出鑑醫師是不用具名的要具名的是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13521.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13525.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
就是依審會的所有的委員具名所有的委員更冤枉因為對初見的醫生有一點意見然後你叫我大家都要具名請問到庭上去結問的要是誰負責去審理審判的時候要去出法我們有跟法官講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13545.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13567.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
如果是這種情形 如果他有鑑定不足的部分 儘量用書補充鑑定的方式來實施 如果非必要的話啊 必要的時候是叫誰那就請出見 不是請出見委員來 不是請出見醫師來那叫誰啊那就有具名的委員了 其中一個具名委員其中一個到底是誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13568.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13580.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
你名字沒有給我們我們怎麼知道通知是誰一次如果有五個六個要找誰那每個人都有每他的專業我們根據這部分的專業也許那他為什麼要花這個時間去為這個鑑定報告去負責呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13586.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13602.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
所以你的意思是醫生會你覺得很簡單的但是他們就沒辦法運作醫生也不愛捏那怎麼辦我也知道他們的顧慮啦事實上我們有幾位醫師也有講過具名瞎出來報告比較不造假是不是啦你跟我說這是基本的問責機制啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13603.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13626.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
就好像我們最高法院以前的秘密分爛的時代保密分爛的時代 如果法官都不具名 或者是我跟您講 鑑定意見具名勢必難以避免案件關係人進行關說請託之情事 希求鑑定人能做出對己有利的鑑定如果有不利於己方的鑑定 案件關係人更可能進一步對鑑定人進行騷擾或報復好 現在來了 BBE星 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13631.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13649.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
許多關稅 許多關稅如果把這個理由推演下去的話所有的審查都通通不要具名包括法院的判決書都不要具名法官的名字在審理的時候也都不要具名因為我們也有朋友啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13650.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13669.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那這樣子可以用這樣的推演說我們會被受關說現在是這樣你職務上你不可規避啊分案給你你就要審啊那這個醫生呢他是法定的職權法定的任務耶你叫是醫生會的委員人家醫生會是這樣沒有錯可是醫生可以說我不當委員了啊他不是真的法官是以此為業他可以說我不當啦我不當委員啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13677.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13690.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
他不是以此為業 以委員為業我現在都不想問你道歉 因為你說了有道歉 但是醫生就是不愛這要怎麼解決你就沒想出來 你要拖多久 你告訴我要拖多久那這幾百個訴訟當事人的權益到底還要讓你們拖多久 我就問這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13700.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13712.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
要再拖下去或想辦法你今天在這裡跟我們說想辦法可是你要想多久我們真的有在做事我們包括我們安排的列席會議兩個月一次不是兩個月一次立委諮詢以後兩個月才有開會我們請法官到意見會那邊去做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13718.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13734.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
這部分我們都有在做,我們知道他們的難處是什麼事實上我們開了三次會、諮詢會,會員會的人也有到我們這邊來做一些現在就是司法院都很大,跟你說也不想聽不是,我們非常尊重委員給我們的指教對啦,我會指教,我們就等著審預算的時候來指教啦好,謝謝,那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13754.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13757.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
有請部長我們今天的主題主要是討論有關於打詐、詐騙的問題那麼我們知道其實在台灣詐騙的手法五花八門很多都是利用這個人性貪婪的這種弱點所以這個常常都會有發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13780.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13805.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
有人被詐騙當然被詐騙的當事人他自己本身有責任可是如果說詐騙的手法他是一再利用公部門的口號或者是公部門的政策然後因此而被詐騙的話其實我認為回過頭來其實政府就有必要要做一些政策的檢討首先我想要講就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13806.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13826.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
我其實最近就是從司法院的裁判書裡面就是用偵查不公開的關鍵字去搜尋到底有多少的刑事案件是因為當事人他相信詐騙集團說某些案件是偵查不公開所以後來就被詐騙了 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13827.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13852.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
在113年就136筆那其中有10件的刑事案件就是因為詐騙集團他謊稱是這個檢調人員告訴被害人說我告訴你這件事情你不可以講這個偵查不公開所以導致有些當事人呢就被詐騙那麼這10件的金額就高達一千多萬那我想其實很多的民眾基本上大概都常常會有接到類似這樣的電話那尤其像是這個高齡的 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13856.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13870.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
的民眾常常很容易就誤信為他是不是賬戶被凍結啦或是等等的這個情況然後詐騙集團又告訴他說這是不能講因為偵查不公開所以我想請教部長就是說您對於這種詐騙集團他一再 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13872.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13886.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
一而再再而三地利用偵查不公開作為詐騙手段。」這件事情您的看法是什麼樣?您有沒有想到有什麼好的方法可以去化解人民就誤信偵查不公開? |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13888.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13906.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
謝謝委員的一個指教那我想這個冒充那個司法人員這已經由來很久了那現在尤其如果說以用這個偵查不公開來欺騙我想都欺騙這些老實人那我想我們用宣導面的我們用個案去識別化的 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13906.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13927.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
以偵查不光這一種實際的案例我們在做一個宣導那我想我們檢察官我們希望我們各地檢察官我們結合我們各主管的部會我想我們到社區裡面我想被騙的大概都是一些老實的老百姓那我們用識別化的這種方式把我們實際的案例我們做一個宣導 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13928.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13955.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
那基本上我們在地方電視台或者是我們那個社區利用任何一種的甚至到任何一個場所我們來做這樣的宣導我想可以讓比較有說服力讓他們有警覺好那我想要告訴部長的就是說其實呢這些年來我們有看到法務部也有做一些這個媒體政策的宣導那邊的一些相關的經費可是事實上在針對什麼叫偵查不公開的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13957.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13981.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
議題的宣導我覺得還是不夠的而且呢你們這個常常都會拿偵查不公開其實這個有時候電視上就會看到偵查不公開的這樣的一個口號來恐嚇人民而沒有真正的告訴人民什麼是偵查不公開那麼這個問題我認為其實也是嚴重的尤其是已經這麼多年來其實大部分的台灣民眾其實接到 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13981.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
14000.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
如果說詐騙集團他假稱他是檢調人員然後告訴他現在什麼有發生什麼問題然後偵查不公開不可以告訴警方這個人民很容易就相信了由此可見就是法務部其實在這方面的宣導是不足的是失敗的而這個部分的話其實本席認為說法務部應該要研擬一個專案報告來徹底的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
14008.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
14022.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
來告訴民眾珍藏不公開是在什麼時候才會有這樣的一個要求而不是說接到一通電話然後就讓人民就相信了那麼這個部分我希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14023.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14043.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
法務部是不是未來可以加強這方面的說明宣導那麼同時可能不僅是在媒體上面就是在電視上面現在網路上面很多資訊你們甚至可以做一些圖卡然後來強調這方面的重要這警察檢調人員不會任意的打電話給民眾好 謝謝委員那接下來我想請那個數發布的代表今天是 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14052.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14079.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
好那謝謝部長請回座委員好是今天是副署長是黃副署長您好那我想就是在數法部其實呢這些年來你們有推動一個叫第三方支付的服務事業或人員依據洗錢防治及服務能量的登錄辦法那針對這個第三方業者這個必須要 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14080.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14105.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
遵從《洗錢防治法》裡面所要求的法尊等等聲明書然後要去進行一些能量的登錄請問一下你們現在登錄的狀況如何?我們目前有64家的業者64家的業者可是你知道其實在商業司有登記有多少家要從事第三方支付的公司嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14106.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14112.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
目前有登錄的之前知道是有13000多家是有登錄的但是實際上因為他必須要實名的就是要跟我們登錄然後我們會去查核那這樣子的話他才算是合法的就是11月30號以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14124.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14139.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
因為我看起來這個數字差別很大在商業是登記的有一萬多家可是你實際上你們現在所受理的只有64家我們目前之前就是有八十幾家來跟我們申請然後實際上我們經過查核了以後我們現在現存就是實際上登錄的是64家 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14146.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14155.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
所以這64家是完整登錄已經取得了你們的認證那麼我們看到其實在你的網站上面還有一些叫所謂的保留註銷條件通過這什麼意思這個可能就是他需要補充一些內容訊息然後提供給我們所以他們還是通過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14165.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14180.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
有條件通過有條件通過所以他們還是可以跟銀行講說提供相關的登錄的能量證書然後取得一個虛擬的帳號是可是你明明就是當時就說是保留註銷條件為什麼在註銷條件審核的部分卻沒有這個經過再次的審查之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14188.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14206.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
他們到底是合格還是不合格他們符合你們這個作業辦法裡面所要求的能量登錄嗎跟委員補充一下這部分是因為這樣因為有些現在有些新興的行業他因為他現在沒有沒有沒有能量登錄所以現在我們跟銀行銀行這邊就金管會這邊有做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14207.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14223.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
行政協助的部分只要他沒有通過我們能量登錄的話銀行就不準就不會提供他們虛擬帳戶可是有很多新興的科技行業他希望進入到三資這個行業所以他就會來跟我們說其實他這部分來講的話他現在因為沒有能量登錄變成說他沒有辦法去申請 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14224.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14249.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
虛擬帳戶可是他有要配合的業者就是說我們也要看他的時機因此就變成一個雞生蛋單生雞的情況所以我們您委員您在網上上面會看到我們有一個保留註銷條件就是說我們要求他6個月之內要拿這個人量登錄去申請到虛擬帳戶的虛擬帳號的時候你必須要在6個月之內做出時機你如果沒有辦法提出時機的話我們馬上就註銷掉他的資格這個意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14249.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14275.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
所以註銷掉他的資格之後他的虛擬賬號已經取得虛擬賬號也會被註銷掉嗎?是的 是的那所以現在還有幾家?你們剛剛說還有二十幾家是屬於保留註銷條件通過的業者嗎?大概目前在十幾家十幾家?然後六個月之內可是他六個月之內會不會就已經從事了詐騙的行為?因為他已經取得了虛擬賬號 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14277.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14301.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
跟委員報告一下這個之前有很多委員詢詢這件問題所以我們現在就是針對這64家已經通過能量登錄的年底之前全部都會行政檢查一次沒有我是說保留註銷條件通過這些業者因為你還是給了他這個條件他還是可以跟銀行去申請只是他6個月之內他要完成那個登錄對不對那所以他在6個月的中間有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14302.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14310.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
成為就是詐騙集團的就是委員您擔心的這個可能這件事情我們就是要透過限地查核的部分去查 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14311.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14333.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
所以你們多久查核一次?我們幾乎每一兩週都會排一次我們現在就是64家全部都要把年底之前全部查完我還是講兩件事一個是已經是完整的沒有註銷條件的一個是保留註銷條件我要強調的就是說其實看得出來就是你們現在這個速發部的產業發展署跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14334.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14357.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
經濟部那邊可能還沒有或是跟金管會那裡還沒有協調好一個比較好的一個作業方式就是你們這邊要登錄完之後然後他才能夠憑這個登錄去向金管會去向銀行端去取得虛擬賬號到底就像剛剛您說的到底是雞生蛋蛋生雞哪個先哪個後對但是重要就是當他取得了虛擬賬號之後他就有可能開始從事詐騙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14360.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14376.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
的這樣的一個情況所以我認為說在保留註銷條件通過的這個情況應該是還是不能夠同意他取得虛擬賬號否則的話就很容易就會有這個詐騙的事端發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14378.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14404.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
委員好就是針對委員提的這個部分就是針對比較具有風險比如說像這種還沒有完全提供資料的部分我們回去就是會看是不是盡速的納入我們就是強化就是檢查的部分然後另外您提到的部分我們還是會回去就是跟團隊做研議好我希望你們能夠在我看我是要求你們一個月還是兩個星期之間要 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14408.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14434.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
這個提出相關的這個檢討報告尤其是檢討你們現在的第三方支付能量登錄的作業要點還有就是你們輔導業者我們剛剛講你有一萬多家業者他都登記說他從事第三方支付只是暫時還沒有取得虛擬賬號可是不曉得是不是所有銀行端都已經知道這個事情那還是有極有可能他已經取得虛擬賬號而且也都開始在行就是有這個詐騙的行為所以這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14438.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14456.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
問題本席認為是重要的我們不希望抒發部成為詐騙的幫助犯你們要更積極地採取行動另外我這邊也請法務部可能也要再去徹底檢討一下有關於人民因為被偵查不公開這個語詞所詐騙誤信誤信而詐騙所以也請你們要再做一個報告好 謝謝謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14465.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14481.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
我們接下來請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請內政部次長還有警政署跟移民署署長麻煩次長、署長好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14489.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14513.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
市長我先表揚一下本席的選區林口上個禮拜我們中校派出所所長成功攔貨一個馬來西亞籍的車手那追回了贓款那我知道這段時間這個詐騙氾濫程度可是我們第一線的員警其實都非常的辛苦那我常講是說要源頭管理那還有就是說我們看到問題來解決問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14515.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14528.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
但到目前為止一月到八月的時候有多少的外籍人士因為詐騙的相關案件被逮捕我想我們有這個相關的搜尋統計的資料來沒關係我們直接秀出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14529.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14553.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
這個是刑事警察局這邊的一個統計那其中詐騙詐欺的部分在113年1月到8月已經有761案那比過去幾年都還要來得高那去年是921案但是回推下來還有三分之一左右的一個時間所以說今年有可能外籍人士會破千案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14553.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14580.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
那在在就是看到說有外籍人士當然我還是強調99%我認為說外籍人士願意來到台灣生活不管是新住民不管是來求學我想都是利益良善也都希望是能夠跟台灣共榮共存共好可是有人還是會有這個專漏洞的一個情況我想這也是為什麼我們早晚今天排這個專案報告那另外我看到另外一個數據是下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14583.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14592.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
113年跟112年謊稱代辦貸款的詐騙數據這也是之前我跟刑事警察局要的資料成長的比例讓我覺得更訝異 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14595.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14614.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
去年同時間800多件但今年同時間有到2100多件暴增了所以換言之不管是外籍人士也好或是說本國的這個詐騙案件我們不是說一直在防範詐騙打擊詐騙但為什麼感覺越打越詐到底發生了什麼事情是不是簡要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14616.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14637.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
謝謝委員我想外籍人士的部分一方面就是說我們現在義後觀光的部分復甦所以有蠻多的這個外籍人士他是持這個觀光簽證到臺灣那我們就有發現這所謂的假觀光真詐騙的這種行為所以在這個部分我們也跟包括交通部 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14638.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14660.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
還有外交部我們在研擬就對某一些風險比較高的國家的觀光客我們要不要採取一些其他的管制措施這個部分還在討論我可以請教一下都是國籍東南亞國家還是免簽的國家以免簽的國家為主最近我們有放寬幾個免簽的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14663.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14685.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
這個部分我們也在尋求就是說該國的駐台的單位跟我們一起來討論這個對策那這個部分我們可能有一些比較細節的部分我們會後可以再跟委員報告好 但是什麼時候因為我們現在已經看到問題了不管是數字層面統計層面這都是我們刑事警察局統計的嘛那什麼時候能夠把辦法給拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14687.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14698.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
你剛也講跟外交部跟交通部那什麼時候有一個具體明確的不管是改善也好、政策也好、調整也好來跟委包我們希望年底之前我們能夠有個對策 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14699.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14718.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
年底之前會提出對策因為我們已經開過兩次會另外本席有關注到一個案件我想也利用這個機會兩位署長也都在我先請教現在外籍人士是不是在台灣可以購買這個所謂的摩托車或是微型電動車而且不需要雇主證明對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14724.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14752.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
確定啦 這個不是陷阱題現在外籍人士在台灣可以購買微型機車跟微型電動車不用附上雇主證明但是我們有沒有限制兩個部分因為我知道交通部今天沒有來但是我提出來因為這個是最近本席聽到我們基層員警有反應的我們有沒有限制外籍人士他一個人可以購買多少台摩托車或他名下可以登記多少台摩托車 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14755.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14756.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
移民署這就跟你有相關了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14778.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14798.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
如果是這個部分還是要財稅單位有通知我們的話我們就會有可能沒有通知所以說他今天你今天外籍人士要離開他拿其他國家的護照要離開我們的國門的時候我們不知道說他到底有沒有繳清我們台灣的交通罰款我們有沒有繳清我們相關的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14799.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14817.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
如果說他不是刑事案件的話是不是他就可以直接離開也沒有任何記錄如果沒有記錄的話沒有禁止出境的話的確是可以本席現在提出一個很嚴重的狀況這也是基層員警告訴我就是說外籍人士現在有一些不肖業者他就直接去找外籍人士去 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14818.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14834.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
人頭也好或說去用什麼樣他就等於一個外籍人士他下面可能登記了三四十台摩托車他都用他的身份證件去購買機車購買機車完之後行照掛在這個外籍人士身上但是用的可能是其他人去用 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14835.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14850.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
那造成說如果這一台摩托車他去外面闖紅燈被開單罰款也是罰單也是寄到這一個人來可是這一個人也許三個月到期了他就要回他的國家了他就離境 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14851.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14875.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
那這個罰單就不知道找誰了那還有這只是一般的正常違規情況如果說有詔事假設他騎著這台摩托車撞到人詔事但他逃逸他當場沒有被攔下來他就駕駛者就離開了警方來詢訊追蹤也只能追蹤到登記他名下的但這一個外籍人士有可能出境了 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14876.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14894.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
所以這跟什麼這跟本席聽到這跟假車牌有一點點類似但又不完全因為他是真車牌只是他的車牌全部都登記在同一個人的名下那那個人可能就變成是人頭他可能有不肖業者他就去找快要離開的最後半年最後三個月要離開台灣了 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14895.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14920.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
那他就跟他收購我可能一台車一千塊一台車兩千塊還多少錢你就讓我登記反正我沒有登記上限所以會發生一個很荒謬的情況一個人他下面有三四十個車牌五六十個車牌的登記然後罰款沒繳他也離開我們出入境我們移民署沒有辦法攔截他這會是一個治安問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14924.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14950.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
跟委員報告我們目前齁在這個外籍移工的部分如果他離境的話他的門號跟帳戶我們會跟金管會還有NCC會去做一個阻斷那委員剛剛提到這個有關於車牌的部分我們會跟交通部討論就是說我們先了解一下他那個樣態還有剛剛委員提到一個人他到底身上掛了幾台車 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14951.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14966.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
我們說現在可以讓他不用付雇主證明他就可以買車這個尊重人權我們沒有意見但是他理論上來講一個人就一台摩托車嘛頂多兩台嘛但他如果說一個人他名下有50台、30台那就明顯不合理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14967.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14992.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
郭台銘來他也不會騎那種摩托車啊對不對所以這樣子一個樣態他就會是犯罪溫藏有可能他不是自己用而是給別人用那就會產生我剛剛提出來的這個問題我想這個部分連帶的因為會這樣做的人不是一個常態他有可能就有一些犯罪有可能他又變車手車手的車牌車手的交通工具然後再去做詐騙環環相扣 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14994.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15017.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
我想我點到這邊你們這些就是有偵查經驗的人應該比我更了解這個是一個破口請一定要防堵好嗎那一個月內也給本席針對這個部分做什麼樣的一個因應措施是不是讓本席也知道好謝謝委員我們跟交通部研擬一下整個樣態然後我們有對策部分跟委員會報告好謝謝再麻煩一個月內回覆好謝謝那接下來我們請麥玉珍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15030.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15035.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
謝謝主席 呃 有請我們的警政署署長好 麻煩署長嗨 委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15045.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15071.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
好 署長好要請教署長一下你知道我們警政署在114年媒體政策及業務宣傳費打詐宣傳經費就佔了2億3千零24萬3千元比例就是比我們去年多了20倍你知道嗎知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15072.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15089.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
知道好還有看到你們的依據我們的預算中心在113年到114年的媒體政策宣傳費的內容是兩個是相同的但是呢多了兩億你也知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15093.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15105.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
根據委員報告因為113年我們只備了1500萬那在5月份就用完了那我再加我的這個一倍金1500萬所以今年度是用3000萬的這個經費來執行打詐的一個宣導的一個預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15111.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15138.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
另外一筆你是說是用完但是還是用完了你今年編的相同的計劃所以你覺得有必要多2億但是另外一筆我們就是也是業務費推動打詐亡靈就是這樣也編列了9億多比7年也多了7億所以那個效果又如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15139.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15144.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
跟委員報告因為我們這是因為通過打詐四法之後還有明年114年的打詐2.0版那我們對於宣導還有相關設備還有這些這個相關的一個一個這些的內容就是跟今年都是不一樣的對所以說去年跟今年要來去編明年的不一樣但是的效果是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15166.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15180.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
效果應該會不一樣我們做這樣子效果不一樣因為時間的關係我跟你說的效果效果就是我們青少年人手一機但是呢結果你的打詐四法跟宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15182.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15199.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
就是在我們未成年的車手的影片你知道最低的人數啊最低的觀看人數連500都不到啊所以你這個就是你的效果這樣的宣傳的效果還有這三年來青少年 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15201.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15225.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
是詐騙案人數在行政案裡面也是最高的就是你的打詐的效果越來越多如何預防阻止青少年成為詐騙集團的車手就是你的效果這個效果覺得大家我們全國人民看到了你的預算越來越多但是這個效果讓我們的青少年就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15226.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15255.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
策略越來越多這樣就是你的效果嗎?我跟委員報告一下就是明年最主要針對是在電視跟網路廣告這兩個區塊不管是你要針對什麼但是你的宣傳費編列20倍但是你的效果就是針對青少年剛才說青少年還有現在就針對我們是離境的外籍人士的宣傳的影片裡面都是中文 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15256.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15270.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
所以你是做這個影片的效果是如何?你跟誰宣傳?是外籍人士捏但是你的影片是全部的中文,連英文都沒有這樣子的效果就是你增加預算的效果嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15271.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15278.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
委員這個部分我們會再精進就是對於訓導的影片、內容、短影音這個都是可以再做再做精進的地方再做精進你沒有做啊所以現在提出來你在說精進精進你是這個影片的效果在哪裡沒有達到效果所以你還要增加預算是我們要去點出來的問題不是我們要做有效果的事情我們才要增加預算同樣的相同的計劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15299.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15316.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
你說話不夠你再增加預算但是的效果就是這樣所以我們要希望的我們移工你要去有這個影片就是要預防詐騙但是沒有人看得懂怎麼去預防 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15317.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15324.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
還有就是過去三年移工被騙了本來是294但是現在呢是711所以這個就是你的錢花不夠就是要去宣傳但是呢宣傳的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15334.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15354.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
是越來越多啦,人家被騙越來越多啦,錢也越來越多啦,這樣就是好過啦不是賺錢越來越多啦,是我們全國的人民被騙的越來越多,這個就是你的政績啦所以我們希望的,我們是不是要有設立一個多國議員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15356.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15373.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
就是防詐的團隊不管是議員因為每次我們的防詐專線也好我們的警政署也好打電話進來的話就說我們還沒有被騙所以被騙了才能追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15374.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15378.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
如果是被騙的呢就是說這個是國外的詐騙集團我們無法追蹤所以這樣子的效果是在哪裡所以很多都說是國外的詐騙集團但是我們沒有多國議員或者是有一個團隊來去因為這樣子的防詐不是說我們設立這個防詐中心或者防詐司法設在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15401.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15418.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
何況但是我們的民眾沒辦法收穫又沒有收賄也沒有預防到詐騙所以我們希望要落實我們政府的錢也是我們人民的血汗錢我們要落實要有效果不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15420.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15432.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
做好人款,而有效果才是真正的編列這樣預算。」很多人都是看的大的預算,但是我們是小市民,我們大小的預算。小的預算你們花的,眨眼都沒有眨一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15436.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15442.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
所以我們覺得這個才真正的我們看到小的預算編列越多變成很多的預算花沒有花在刀口上沒有達到這個效果所以我們希望你要怎麼樣去編列增加預算要有不同的計劃才是 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15455.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15480.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
不同的效果不能說同一個計畫內容預算增加沒有達到效果這個是我們人民的水和錢希望你要落實要如何要達到就是防詐的效果才叫做防詐不要越打越詐變成我們台灣的的那個名言好嗎好 謝謝委員好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15483.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15499.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
好 謝謝 我們下一位請楊瓊英委員發言謝主席 楊瓊英發言 首先邀請書發部麻煩書發部委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15512.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15512.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
打詐阻詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15515.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15543.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
網路平台那我們的社群未來要怎麼樣來協助那我們的打詐專訪規定法案規定的一定的規模的網路廣告平台業者呢需要在台指定法律的代表因為以往我們怎麼罰都罰不到所以在這樣的情況之下我們終於終於打詐專法出來了那並且呢他必須要在台灣指定法律代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15543.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15570.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
並且要配合主管機關停止播放詐騙的廣告違反情節重大者最高可處一億元以下書發部終於在9月份的時候來公布打詐專法納管的平台包括本席所說的這些各大平台都納在這裡面所以本席要請教我們有沒有這個決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15572.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15598.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
我們有沒有這個決心要做如果有不法的時候也必須要做開罰的動作而且我們的預期效益你認為會如何來謝謝委員針對這個打詐專法的部分其實就是立法院通過以後其實我們在執行上面就是比較容易那這個其實非常謝謝委員已經給你上方保健要怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15598.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15622.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
那因為這個部分就是說他我們有幾個執法那這個七個執法我們就是陸陸續續的在訂定那其中針對網路廣告平台的業者的部分那是要求他們要提出就是在台灣的這個代理人的部分對 法律代表人對 那他們目前都已經提出都已經提出是 那我們在審理中在審理中是 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15623.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15649.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
那這個流程你預估大概什麼時候可以正式完成因為大家期待非常的高是那目前就是我們這個禮拜五我們會做一個審查第一次審查會議禮拜五明天第一次審查會議對然後確認完了以後呢就是其實我們是雙向進行啦就是他的代理人就是審查然後還有一部分就是說還是競速的要求他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15650.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15668.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
把他們的一些就是怎麼去改善的部分去做一個處理對那請教你們的KPI指標的日期大概是什麼多久時間我們目前是目前已知就是說各家的業者他12月底之前一定都會都會完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15669.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15687.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
就是實名制就是廣告業者然後針對廣告平台的部分他們的實名制的部分他們年底之前一定都會完成那我們今天收到最新的訊息是Google它已經執行了 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15688.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15689.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
英國2023年通過《線上安全法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15708.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15727.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
他們會要求社群的媒體以及搜尋引擎的這些平台如果有不法,他必須依法迅速的去移除這些內容不得透過這種演算法去推波這個是非常重要如果沒有配合封鎖的觸及到這個觸法的網站 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15730.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15749.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
他呢可以裁處喔他是裁處其全球年營業額10%的這個罰款也就是因為這樣子英國敢罰所以他們的效果真的呈現所以我再次請教我們書法部你會不會會不會有沒有這個開罰的決心 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15752.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15771.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
如果說他們有違法的話,我們一定會移送減掉的部分,沒有問題。一定是開罰的決心嘛,是嗎?是,是。好,那也就是說你們既然法也有了,而且執行之了,也有上方保健了,那在這樣的情況下,你預期,你們預期,是不是明年我們的這個,這個被打詐的金額會下降? |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15776.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15792.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
你們的預估呢?預期效果我們的預估就是明年就是各個部會合作之下明年的打詐一定會金額跟數量一定會往下掉一定會往下降我也勉勵之加油接下來我請司法跟法務部 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15794.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15813.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
那因為過去有重大的這個詐欺犯呢如藍道等被披露但是因為他的共犯底下會這個這個一案接一案所以在這樣的情況之下呢但是我們很努力在抓可是到最後呢都是怎麼樣侵犯甚至緩刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15815.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15834.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
甚至有一天就不用關啊一天也不用關就緩刑在這樣的一個情況之下他得以持續的再犯持續的再犯那今年更有出現了洗錢90億的這個詐團共犯那也只有判了六個月到一年不等結果全部緩刑四年 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15836.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15854.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
引起社會的嘩然在這樣的情況之下可以說我國的法則並不是說清欸但是問題是出在審判實務上詐欺侵犯侵犯的例子讓他可以在社會上不斷的來串流那這怎麼辦呢所以本席要請教我們要怎麼改進我們要怎麼改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15863.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15890.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
你抓到了你一樣啊就是只有緩刑啊那緩刑他還是一樣繼續騙啊那民眾繼續糟糕啊那怎麼辦我們會因為打詐狀況已經過了齁那我們本部呢原理就是就是對高額詐欺跟複合的詐欺的刑度這部分已經生效了那我們這花行齁因為韓美各檢察機關對重大詐欺的一個犯罪齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15891.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15896.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
要具體求刑 打詐專法50條要具體求刑具體求刑那43條44條那個也都是有比較加重或者有提高的一個刑度比那個刑罰30條就依照打詐專法對 我們會具體求刑因為現在輕判的問題的確是 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15908.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15922.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
有比較 這個要請那個司法院來回答那我想我們這邊如果說有輕判的話所以你已經發案通令 法務部那個給各檢察機關各檢察機關 好但如果說有輕判的話我們也希望就是說請檢察官提起上訴好 我們請司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15923.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15952.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
國約好關這部分有關加重詐欺的量刑部分我們最近才有針對電信詐欺的部分有做一個量刑的斟酌事項請各法院能斟酌量刑這部分我們一直有做一些量刑工具的研擬那也希望法院我們也宣導法院在量刑的時候要做妥適量刑回覆社會對法院對所謂的詐欺案件的厭惡跟期待這部分我們會持續再努力好 那我最後請內政部 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15956.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15979.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
如果相關單位我講青少年的議題我們就針對因為現在這個問題很困擾的所有的家長青少年涉詐的人數攀升我們的政府應該要去重視我們看到在2017年首度超過1萬人全國青少年詐騙人數這太恐怖了 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15980.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16007.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
那所以從2019年到2022年每年至少都是9000人以上都是9000人以上這個是統計數字告訴我們但是如果這個是險性隱性再加進來那更更更恐怖涉詐的人從12歲到18歲的少年那一直在增加而且是兩成的比例在增加所以本席要請教政府對於青少年的這涉詐 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16008.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16033.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
你這涉嫌你要怎麼樣去防範要怎麼樣錯失那同時在我們整個求職詐騙人就非常的多孩子畢業之後他要去求職結果就被這個求職詐騙了這個真是苦不堪言在這樣的情況之下包括了求職網站、APP政府你要怎麼樣有效的去宣導先從內政部說一下吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16033.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16056.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
好 謝謝委員我想這個青少年色詐的問題我們很頭痛因為通常犯罪集團你很頭痛讓我們社會不知道該怎麼辦你要拿出方案啦我們犯罪集團就是他會利用這個青少年本身他未滿18歲然後有恃無恐這樣的一個心態然後來誘使他犯罪這個大家都知道你要怎麼應對 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16057.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16077.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
我們現在做法有幾個第一個就是學校端的部分我們目前跟學校端在做這個所謂的法治教育這是第一個那第二個就是說在家庭的部分目前我們在整個追究這個青少年色詐的犯罪的部分我們會去連帶的去追究這個家長的責任這個在家庭的部分我們會要求連在家長的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16080.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16099.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
在打詐四法通過之後,包括速發布,對於詐騙廣告的攬阻,尤其是在求職廣告、打工廣告的部分,我們希望能夠透過在網路上面能夠把這個東西阻絕掉,讓青少年能夠步入正軌。另外,也有跟委員在補充就是說,教育部那邊我們也會跟他們合作, |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16100.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16127.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
正常的打工正常的這樣的一個青少年的求職的部分來合作讓他們能夠找到正當的管道而不是透過這個謝謝內政部我想這是橫跨不管是勞動部不管是教育部我希望把你剛剛所說的精進方案你整理一個方案給本席因為連你都說頭痛那我們的民眾家長不知道該怎麼辦好不好你多久時間可以整理一個你們精進方案給本席 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16128.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16136.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
報告委 我們行政院的打詐指揮中心我們一個月之內整理給委員好 謝謝謝謝 那我們下一位請吳立華委員謝謝主席 有請司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16155.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16157.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
以少年及家事廳為主 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16163.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16183.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
委員好您好今天委員會特別安排如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具我這邊其實對原住民來講有一個很好的工具那就是法服法律輔助這個東西有多好 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16184.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16199.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
陳水扁總統上任之後特別設立了一個法律輔助基金會針對這些弱勢的需要者像這個這些年來幫助我們原住民很多很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16200.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16221.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
那蔡英文總統上任之後呢她也在隔年成立這個援助民主法律服務中心最主要就是希望能夠去建立一個有文化敏感度的法律服務我們都很高興但是現在問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16223.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16249.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
我們看到在法服監管委員會的會議記錄當中竟然出現什麼樣的文字就是他認為律師應該要以做案件為主希望他們去減少去部落做法律宣導業務那我就問啊這樣子的一個會議記錄而且還才是才決 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16252.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16256.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
會助長我們的詐騙還有其他的案件對吧您認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16259.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16288.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
關於原住民族的原住民部落的法律宣導我覺得的確是很重要的事情是嗎這個部分也可能涉及到所謂的當時因為可能是專職律師部門的人數跟一些業務的分擔的問題如果我們要解決問題竟然還要往是因為人數少去做一個解決的方向這個是完全不正確的我要講的是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16289.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16312.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
對我們原住民來講您應該很清楚我們跑到法院去的其實到最後他都是因為什麼呢採集問題、狩獵問題、土地問題光是土地的司法案件啊我曾經質詢過占所有土地案件原住民才2%多的人口竟然占10%欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16314.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16342.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
這是就是因為我們的一個法律的禁用權我們原住民碰到的時候都是被抓的時候他其實我們有自己的文化慣習我們有自己的法律秩序可是就碰到了國家的法律跟我們格格不入我們動輒就犯罪所以我們很需要這樣的一個法律輔助那長期以來我們能夠使用到的途徑很少更何況 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16343.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16352.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
我自己碰到我想應該沒有人可以超越我我光是柬埔寨帶回來的孩子就120多位 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16355.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16383.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
一百二十多位這個都是做功德因為我也沒有再跟他們接觸因為這也不是光彩的事但是我要說的是我們平日接的服務案量詐騙案很多啊非常的多我們特別需要我們的法律的宣導所以這個部分我就是要來看一下你看財團法人法律輔助基金會監督管理辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16384.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16410.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
他有得聆聘具有法學會計或其他專門學士之學者或專家擔任我們來看一下歷屆法服監管委員會的背景清單從來沒有對原住民有文化敏感度的專家學者也沒有原住民本身的法學專家都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16411.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16439.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
都沒有所以這個我就是今天來質詢就是要列入公報的記錄我也要求要到我的辦公室我們來討論法服監管委員會很重要啊可以決定很多的決策我希望要具有文化敏感度的專家學者或者是有原住民籍的法律學者專家這是我的第一個訴求第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16441.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16457.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
我們都要說如何遏止淪為犯罪集團的工具竟然還要求說不要去做法律不要去部落做法律宣導我是認為不但不能禁止不能減少還要增加預算增加時數 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16459.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16479.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
我覺得這個部分是很重要的那希望我們把這樣的意見一方面帶回去一方面列入公報記錄然後我也希望到我的辦公室我們來討論如何解決這個問題好不好所以委員指教我們會把這個問題帶回去好 謝謝您也謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝 那下一位我們請李坤城委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16493.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16499.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
好 謝謝主席我們請警政署署長、刑事警察局局長好 局長委員好好 署長好 局長好這個大家都很關心這個少年青少年這一個犯罪還有這個因為詐騙這一個詐騙數越來越上升的一個問題那我舉這個你們刑事警察局的這一個的這個案子來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16521.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16530.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
我這邊走到112年了112年的比例來講少年犯罪這個少年嫌疑人到了112年有10770人那比110年是多了1216人 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16537.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16553.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
然後呢這個112年這個青少年嫌疑犯有44661人然後到110年呢增加了1481人那其中呢青年跟少年犯罪類型最詐欺最詐欺案最多 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16554.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16576.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
在這個青少年的部分的話呢少年的部分的話詐欺是佔20%青年部分的話是佔31.53%然後呢增加的這個人數呢青年是增加了912人增加了9.33%少年增加了524人增加了31.53%少年增加的比例更高 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16577.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16597.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
所以我們看這個圖少年詐欺的嫌犯比這種逐年增加我剛剛講了到了這個112年到了20%然後呢這個少年嫌犯呢常見的涉案類型呢這個詐欺呢他也是最多見比這個之前的這個竊盜一般傷害都還要多 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16598.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16617.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那我看一下內政部的報告新少年 少年涉詐的主要的類型是車手或車手頭還有一個是人頭帳戶 這兩個是算主要的比例按照司法院的統計來看2018年到2023年 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16621.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16646.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
這個少年的詐欺犯人數呢從3254人那激增到6323人成長了這個1.94倍啦齁那林林總總看了這麼多的數據來看齁那其實我相信大家都很關心齁這個少年青少年齁這個尤其在詐欺這部分齁這個比例是越來越高齁那請問一下局長或是說這個署長齁你們對於這一個比例越來越高 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16647.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16673.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
你們的看法是怎麼樣?好,這個依照這幾年的演變確實現在目前青少年會被淪為作為詐欺的一個對象是有在攀升的這個趨向對,為什麼?對,那我想第一個可能就是因為一個法制概念的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16673.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16696.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
是他們認為說這個未成年犯罪這個會沒有刑責不是不是不會有刑責因為除了他自己本身的刑責之外這個父母親還要擔負法律上的這個責任我覺得現在的青少年是不是會有這種概念他們認為是說可能他們這個犯罪可能就是會比較輕就是法律上的這個不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16697.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16718.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
第二部分可能就是對於他經濟能力的狀況被詐騙集團保證獲利經濟上的誘惑第三個可能就是家庭上的教育上的問題署長現在講的都是原因那怎麼去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16719.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16741.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
那我覺得第一個最重要的就是一定要讓他有美麗意義要視乍的這個美麗意義要加強做這個一個宣導這宣導的這個層面一定要讓他知道說去犯這個案罪是有法律的刑罪而且這個父母親會負有年代的責任的那以後這些所以這個是跟教育部對教育部的部分宣導部會來做加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16742.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16767.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
那另外就是說我們我覺得我們要去做就是我們自己做要去查那個源頭啦我們要查源頭到底是誰來教授來做這一些這些的案件查這個源頭嘛這個源頭也就是說這個集團的源頭是誰來做教授的要把源頭把它把它查出來那另外就是說這個其他的這個如果說有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16768.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16794.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
要做其他就業的或什麼這一類的機會可能勞動部的這個部分可能要提供一些機會相關部位來做配合我覺得最重要的就是從源頭來這邊來處理第一個從宣導的處理第二從我們偵查的這個教唆者的這些的詐欺集團的核心分子來做處理我再請一下這個內政部市長好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16795.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16813.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
這個我剛剛也聽了你也回應了很多這個委員對於這個青少年這個詐欺的比例越來越高那你覺得還有哪些部分可以再做加強的啦我剛剛也聽了學校啦教育啦然後關懷團體啦那還有哪些地方要加強因為我看這比例是越來越高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16814.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16831.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
跟委員報告其實我們現在對青少年來講他第一個當然就是說金錢的誘惑是最重要的原因會不會讓他們覺得說是因為代價很小但是獲利很高就是說他的成本很低的 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16832.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16852.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
對尤其他們大部分是擔任車手的這個角色那行則是比較低因為司法院有在這邊嘛我想請問一下就是說目前目前就是有關這個詐騙的這個少年或是青少年這個是不是大部分都還是以這個保護管束或是訓誡居多 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16860.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16888.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
謝謝委員我是司法院少家庭傅曉萱那委員剛剛有提到說我們的少年如果觸犯這個詐欺相關的案件的時候我們現在有分為兩個部分一個部分是少年保護事件的處理方式另外一個部分是少年刑事案件的處理方式剛剛委員詢問說是什麼樣的保護處分居多那我們現在手上的記錄呢以少年保護事件來講是保護管束 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16889.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16910.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
的這個比例最多?一一二年顯示呢我們的這個跟詐欺有關的保護處分執行狀況是在45.62%45.62%是以保護管束為最大宗那所以你覺得效果有這個效果嗎?就是在這一個處分上面有這個效果嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16911.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16935.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
報告委員我們現在針對這個詐欺的相關案件我們現在司法院邵家廷有推行一個高風險保護管束的事辦計畫因為是從今年113年2月1日開始推行所以目前在6月中有一個短期的這個執行的成效檢討目前看起來是有一定的成效的但是後續還要等數據量比較多的時候才可以具以分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16936.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16959.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
對 我是想 這個包含我在內 大家都很關心那 大家其實也清楚 就從教育 家長或是說這一個多人的關懷的團體那當然行者是 這個是最後的一部分那我是覺得就是說 這個你們要怎麼樣去做一個統合去做一個統合 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16960.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16978.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
把這一個這個橫向聯繫把它做好不然我看3月份其實已經有一份報告了也是在講這個青少年這一個如何防止這個詐騙案件越來越多那其實3月份我看這個報告跟今天的這個報告其實也差不了多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16978.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16998.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
就變成說這個相同問題我們一直重複在討論但數字沒有因此而降低所以我才會問說到底是哪一些部分還可以再做加強的所以真的還是希望各位回去真的就是在各自的業務上面再來看看就是說這個有哪些部分可以再做處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
17000.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17010.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
這個上半年度問的東西跟下半年度問的東西那其實數據一直增加但是提出來的方法都是一樣好 謝謝各位那我再問一下最後一個問一下速發布好了這個我看了這個網路詐騙的這個通報查詢網這個Meta它還是這個詐騙的大戶啦這個你們有這個每天有這樣看你們自己的這個詐騙的查詢網嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17028.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17056.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
目前這個部分呢就是Meta還是比較多但是他們已經有承諾就是說在那個年底之前他們會就是會把這個部分處理完什麼意思?什麼叫做把這部分處理完?因為根據那個打詐四法我們訂定的那個執法的部分那針對這些廣告的平台他必須要提出這個法定代理人都提出來了啊對 他們都提出來了因為Daylight是不是10月31號啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17057.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17072.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
我們目前是正在審查中他們現在另外有另外有一個部分就是針對就是這個廣告的部分廣告平台的部分他們要做實名制實名制就是在年底之前他們會做完 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17072.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17101.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
我剛有聽到說實名制Google有先做了是不是是Google它是哪時候做的昨天所以就是說在Google要投放廣告現在就是實名制了對那為什麼這個其他的還要等到你們執法出來他們才願意做他們有在研議好像他們在那個程式規劃設計的部分好像稍微有點複雜不太一樣那所以呢到年底有機會嗎是到年底包含這個LINE |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17102.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17113.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
臉書、TikTok都有辦法嗎?都有辦法就是我們廣告就是都要實名制沒辦法也要有辦法沒辦法也要有辦法好OK好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17115.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17132.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
好謝謝那我們下一位請葉元之葉元之葉元之蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前賴士寶賴士寶賴士寶張啟凱張啟凱張啟凱好現在我們請省法會委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17155.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17179.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
主席我們先請法務部麻煩部長委員好部長好我想今天這個我們主席今天列這樣子的專案報告的主題那我也想說利用這個機會因為我們這個打詐四法上路從7月開始上路到現在一段時間也在這個利用這個機會來檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17182.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17204.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
目前這個打詐四法新的打詐四法施行之後我們的這個成效我這個我根據我們內政部警政署的這個刑事警察局的統計數據我這個資料是來自刑事警察局的統計數據我們從這個111年的這個新世代打擊詐欺策略行動1.0版本推出到112年到1.5版本到113年2.0版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17210.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17217.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
那這個按照這個歷年的數據來看齁從103年到112年齁我們確實這個在這個這個打擊詐欺的部分齁我們這個破破獲率從49.53齁現在逐漸提升到90.43啦齁這是破獲率啦齁那這個這個是破獲率的提升還是這個案件數的增加這部分是不是部長能不能說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17243.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17252.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
我想這部分那個這個是不是破獲率是不是可以請警政署來因為這個查獲的局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17257.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17270.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
處長這個破例就是說案件的發生之後我們去做一個一個查題大案目前為止就是剛剛委員我們從這個打詐儀表版我是從8月29號公佈之後那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17274.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17300.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
我們的這個統計的方式不一樣所以這個詐欺的案件的發生跟金額數是比去年是增加的事實上案件數也是節節攀升了對 案件數是節節攀升的那因為是我們通貨率也有所提高吧對對對但是事實上案件數的發生案件數是提升的相當近對 提升也是提升的 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17301.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17326.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
這部分我們署長請回還是跟部長來討論這個當然我們今天討論的主題焦點設定在這個移工跟青少年那是就移工的這個部分我想在討論過程中我們要比較謹慎因為這也避免說在這個討論過程中把移工標籤化這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17329.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17357.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
所以事實上以我個人的了解當然現在目前青少年跟移工他們做車手做提供人頭賬戶的狀況是蠻嚴重的但是事實上以我的了解就移工的部分而言他們遭到詐騙的他們成為詐騙集團的受害者的比率 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17358.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17374.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
也非常高,比本土還要高對不對,這個部分,部長瞭解嗎?那個事實上這個移工齁,因為這個是來台灣來做工作齁,那我想這部分因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17375.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17403.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
有它的特殊性所以詐團往往會利用這些移工來做一個車手或者購買那個人口對但是按照NGO團體的調查發現這個事實上這些移工他們本身他們本身很多部分他們更容易淪為這個詐騙集團的受害者因為他們防詐意識比較薄弱來這裡防詐意識比較薄弱再加上人在他鄉很多這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17406.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17421.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
這個成為淪為這個詐騙集團的目標也是狀況也是很清楚但我們比較關心的所以我們應該要關注的是說現在目前這個有關移工的這些涉入犯罪的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17422.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17448.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
結構裡面是不是有逐漸發展出組織化的狀況的確是有那最近我們在有沒有這個人力仲介集團或者是像這個人蛇集團他們有介入這樣子的組織化的東西這個我們會再注意但是的確是有那個委員有關心就是新北地檢最近有指揮偵破了一件菲律賓移工組成的車手集團車手集團有車手集團那這些這些外籍移工提供金融專務作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17450.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17475.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
這些詐團的這些的洗錢的這些人頭詐騙兼車手那也接受這些利用這個通訊軟體來接受詐團的一個指示來取款那這部分我們會去溯源才去往上去追到目前來講的話當然移工的那個車手的一個集團跟那個這部分我們目前是有好這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17475.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17485.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
那我們會注意就是委員關心的這部分我們會往前我們會跟警察、這個司法局再來說一方面我們要避免標籤化啦避免大家認為說這個對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17488.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17506.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
移工的標籤跟歧視但是另外一方面我們真正要關心的是他們有沒有這個往組織化犯罪的這個方向如果有的話我們會用再重點再以組織犯罪的來做一個除了那個加重詐欺以外那有組織犯罪的做一個人這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17508.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17531.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
這個部長你也講過一句話啦我個人認為也是很有道理啦你說認為說人頭賬戶是詐欺集團的命脈啦你認為說要打擊這個詐欺集團就是人頭賬戶是最大的最關鍵的他們的靈魂命脈那這個部分我想現在有關這個青少年跟這個這個移工齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17532.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17539.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
他們大概涉入這個詐欺犯罪大概最重要的兩個角色一個是車手另外一個就是提供人頭帳戶大概是這兩個這兩個我們現在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17544.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17572.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
自從我們這個洗錢防治法通過之後施行之後我們有一個有一個過去是第14條是第一項現在是在第20條21條就是不正使用存款賬戶罪不正使用存款賬戶罪這一條從這一條立法之後這個我們依依這一條這個不正賬戶使用罪來這個這個論罪的比例有多高 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17574.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17592.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
這部分我們再回去統計因為我們手上沒這些資料你們回去統計啦齁因為現在目前這個過去齁有關這個這個相關的這些司法案件齁用這個詐欺幫助犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17594.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17612.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
或者是來論罪或者是用一般洗錢罪來論罪跟不正使用賬戶罪過去在裁判上面它一直有輕重失衡的問題就是因為法條進合的關係它有輕重失衡的問題尤其是詐欺幫助犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17620.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17648.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
要有這個雙重的故意所以在這個雙重故意的認定上面你要常常你如果這個在過去我們最高法院曾經做過這個刑事大法庭曾經做過一個裁定做過裁定把這個這個行為人他的這個是否成立洗錢防治法那時候是第14條第一項他曾經做過這樣的裁定那現在這個這個打詐刑事法這個施行之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17651.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17673.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
現行實務在法條競合上有沒有產生歧義?」這個部分可能要重新再做解釋這部分請部長他這個法條條4是有改掉了那我們會再注意接下來我是請金管會我們今天金管會是銀行局部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17683.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17699.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
委員號這個我們今天是副局長是不是是副局長這個我們現在在談這個人頭帳戶我這邊就要關心一個就是目前有關警示帳戶的這個機制的問題這個有關警示帳戶機制的檢討這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17706.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17713.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
這個我想副局長應該很清楚有關這個目前這個警示帳戶的問題有的說為了3000塊錢的網購爭議結果他平常的這幾百萬的這個帳戶他被列為警示帳戶這整個凍結起來這個狀況這個我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17726.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17754.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
金管會曾經表示這個有約談這個警示帳戶比較多的前五家銀行那定期追蹤要求他們每季這個警示帳戶數是不是有下降這個部分你能不能做一下說明對我們都有定期找這個那有沒有下降你們講的前五名前五家銀行有沒有下降前五名應該有下降的也有可能也有上升的有 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17755.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17776.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
什麼樣的狀況你能不能跟我們說明一下你這樣講就是說有的有下降有的沒下降這我當然知道你能不能說明一下具體的因為每一個時段可能情況不太一樣就比如說去年有一家合併案那他的那個相關的案件就會比較多一點現在這個警示帳戶我這邊統計是從110年到113年這個已經從6萬4千戶現在到13萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17785.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17804.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
十三萬四千三百五十個警示帳戶這個成長是相當驚人的超過一倍那這些警示帳戶這些警示帳戶有的是來自警政署的通報有的是來自來自這個法務部他們有不同的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17806.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17829.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
他們有不同的就如果說你帳戶被被被列入警示帳號之後這個被被列入警示帳號的帳戶他要怎麼他要怎麼救濟他就變成有不同的不同的救濟方式這部分我們如果金管會這個沒有沒有辦法在這個警示帳戶的這個這個我們比較多的這個這個前五你們自己這是你們自己講的你說就就這個前五家銀行你們要去進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
17830.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
17844.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
專案列管,列入專案列管對象,定期追蹤改善情況,觀察銀行每季警示帳戶是否下降。」這是你們自己講的,我現在就是問你們說,你們所講的這些話,你們現在的成果是怎麼樣?這個部分是不是容我們會後再提供相關的報告給委員? |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
17855.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
17875.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
好啦 讓你們惠後提供了但這個東西 因為你們這樣講 社會上面大家在關心警示 這個現在被列入警視帳戶 它確實會造成一些確實有造成一些困擾啦就是你有的可能它只是幾千塊錢的的這種消費糾紛 它被列入警視帳戶 但它那個帳戶可能是它平常 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
17876.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
17890.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
生活在使用的主要帳號裡面可能有幾百萬的存款不過警示帳戶的產生也是銀行依據警察或者檢警料的通知合列作為警示帳戶的這個我有講那這個到底這個警示帳戶到底我們怎麼樣來定性這個警示帳戶事實上在學界上面也有爭議這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
17904.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
17913.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
因為你這個從有警察來來這個有警察這邊所提出的這個警示帳戶跟從這個法官檢察官 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
17915.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
17925.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
提出的警示賬戶,他的救濟程序就完全不一樣了一個是行政救濟,一邊就是已經進入行事輸送程序了當然我們主要是確實要打擊詐騙不法行為所以才會有警示賬戶這種方式來產生但是這個過程裡面這個警示賬戶它本身目前並沒有法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
17941.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
17959.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
你們這目前沒有法之話你們目前是按照一個存款帳戶及疑似不法或嫌屬異常交易管理辦法目前是用一個管理辦法作為法令依據是銀行法的授權對那我個人認為說現在這樣子我們這個警視帳戶的這個在全國的警視帳戶這個數字數量這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
17965.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
17980.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
這樣子不斷的膨脹的情況之下我個人認為應該走向法治化而且將這個警視帳戶他的相關的救濟的程序你被列入警視帳戶之後相關的救濟程序我覺得要做這個整個在這法治化的過程中把它釐清 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
17981.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
18004.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
是那這個部分在打詐四法裡面也有一些條文的規定那包括比如說母法第11條的這個款項的返還有一些機制會比原來的會來的對但是現在目前他就是要走不同的機制嘛你被檢察官跟法官列入警視帳戶跟警察局通報的警視帳戶他的這個救濟程序就不一樣嘛所以我個人我是希望你們齁在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
18007.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
18026.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
確保說打擊詐騙不法行為的同時我們對於這個相關的救濟措施我們要予以完備這部分是我們金管會的責任好不好是 我們再努力好 以上好 謝謝那我們下一位請傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
18031.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18056.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
所有發言登記委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關請入送交個別委員及本會委員傅坤祺所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關已書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18066.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18067.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
行政部部長自己解讀 |