| IVOD_ID |
162952 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162952 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
28 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-30T10:27:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-30T10:38:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b047677e7ec78667039b03998d27825ae3a86deb72054c03a3c59db5358bae10bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:27:54 - 10:38:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」。二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。【僅詢答及宣讀提案條文；第四案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】） |
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謝謝主席 曾志勇主委有請主委辛苦了我們今天討論評普原住民族群身份法草案的審查那有幾件事情希望在質詢的時候先做個釐清因為現在我們憲法法庭的憲判第17號已經要求要不然你要修原住民身份法要不然你就訂特別法那看起來現在行政院的態度是先處理特別法但沒有關係不管你是要修身份法或者是特別法其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
33.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
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就要因應這個保障平埔原住民族群的這樣的一個權益當然就會跟現行的政策資源等等有一些的改變跟差異所以我希望我們的原民會針對這樣的一些改變跟差異能夠有比較清楚的回答這樣大家才會知道後面的節奏啊怎麼樣來做掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
51.261 |
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這有一個數據來講就是我們現在2025年5月法定員入名也就是現在三員加平員是61.8萬人但平補員 平補組預估人數這各種說法都有有的說一二十萬有的說到98.1萬這人的數量會影響政策資源的投入包含政策時間的安排這我想主委不會反對那我就想請問一下因為按照你現在草案裡面你現在講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.731 |
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98.956 |
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現在第一個要有日治時期戶口調查本其本人或其直系血親尊親屬經註記為熟或者是貧嘛就是熟犯或者是貧婦族嘛那時候的稱謂這樣子的以你們目前的掌握戶口名簿上有這樣子的註記的大概有多少人就是98萬多一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
100.953 |
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有註記的就是98萬多一點98萬多一點所以98萬這個數字從這裡來的對好然後你後面有講其他條件嘛也就是說要市民其所民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今依然存續 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
116.221 |
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135.645 |
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且其所屬民族成員依然維持族群認同嘛對不對因為你有一個硬性要件叫戶口名簿然後再來有一些主動的要件嘛比如說我有共同文化然後大家有共同認同對不對這是主觀要件後面這兩個要件加進去的時候取交集那後面這兩個要件這樣算進去大概會是多少人就會比較多啦大概就是你說講的會大概恐怕會增加到120萬啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
143.647 |
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169.899 |
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還會比那個更多是取交集還是取聯集因為我們希望就是說這個平埔原住民身份的認定他們一定要有傳統的這個習俗跟文化跟語言還有就是必須他要認同還要有一個認同這個我們這個族群就是說有文化而且認同這是一塊嘛然後有戶口名簿這是一塊嘛對不對是這全部都算還是要兩個都有才算我們釐清一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
170.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
196.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
兩個都有啊 要兩個都有啊要兩個都有才算嘛那你怎麼會變成一百二十萬人你有戶口民部只有九十八萬人嘛然後有 這其中有人會在乎有民族認同 有文化傳承應該是占這全部人的一部分然後這個數字應該會變小啊委員我跟你講齁 你釐清一下有註記的是九十八萬嘛 對啊但是有的他是 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
197.612 |
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並沒有註記 有一些 甚至像那個南投那邊有很多他們的這個戶籍的這個他可能已經不見了 或者是什麼的對不對還塗黑的 還什麼的 或者是塗黑的嘛對對對 這個又會加進去那你剛剛講說兩個都要一起 這叫交集嘛 對不對我剛剛問你是交集還是聯集啊就是說沒有一定要一起 其中有一項符合都算 那叫聯集啊那到底是哪一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
223.188 |
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250.301 |
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都要符合那叫交集對不對那如果有戶口名簿的98萬然後又要認同這些那數字怎麼會變120萬你知道我的意思嗎應該是不會啦應該會變少嘛對不對來補充說明一下各位報告有戶口名簿登記的是98萬人再加上沒有戶口名簿登記但是他仍然是南島語系民族的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
251.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
262.807 |
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這些就要再加進去這個區塊就更大當然在這裡面再找出有文化認同有族群認同的人我們認為可能會比主持8萬還要再增加的可能性是存在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.448 |
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293.546 |
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你這樣講你剛剛的闡述跟概念是不太一樣的事情欸因為你講說都要有嘛你又要有戶口名簿的登記且他有族群認同等等那怎麼會超過呢好你即便你講說好有一些因為沒有戶口名簿登記有另外的一群人對不對那我實在是我實在是有點我現在覺得有點跳脫不好意思我今天可能要多一點時間啦沒有我再給你補充說明一下啦再跟委員報告所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
294.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
315.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
大法官要求平埔族群要有客觀歷史記錄可及在本草案的第八條指的是有熟評註記以及其他政府公文書的註記再加上大專院校等學術研究機構的研究成果內指明他們是南島嶼新民族所以98萬的數據呢其實只是第一款的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
316.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
336.025 |
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那如果第二款第三款再加進去就會超過98萬人來你把第二款第三款加進去總共是多少人你剛剛主委講120萬對不對是嗎這個是有可能的有可能沒關係預估沒關係你只要抓不要跟到最後差太多就好所以總共的母數大概是120萬嘛對不對差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
337.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
350.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
好那加上後面的條件嘛也就是市民其民族語言習俗傳統文化特性依然持續且民族成員維持族群認同者在這120萬人裡面符合這個後面要件的多少人大概是多少120你來講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
356.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
369.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
報告員這個後面的這些要件呢就是要透過審議的機制對你有一個登記的時間嘛對不對對對所以這個部分的話就沒有辦法做比較精準正確的推估沒關係以你現在就是此時此刻大概是多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
371.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們目前有在做的大概也只有希拉雅族目前已經到了一個階段的成果那如果希拉雅族完成登記的話以希拉雅族在中南部的分部的狀況來看也許希拉雅族就可以增加到大概可以到三四十萬人左右沒有你跟我講你現在比如今年來講符合這樣條件總共有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
414.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為他是要一組一組一組的來審那我們目前已經比較確定的比較確定比較顯性的嘛對那西賴雅族審查的結果目前我們傾向他這個目前看起來還算明確所以呢以台南高雄屏東等地有首藩駐記者或是平埔駐記者大概可以接近到接三十多萬人三十幾萬好 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
416.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
438.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我之所以花這麼多的時間跟你討論人數的問題就是因為第一個認定標準明確嘛你現在已經有若干的認定標準已經清楚了嘛認定標準完之後其實就是估計人數嘛為什麼要估計人數因為人數決定接下來的資源嘛我們今天立了這個新的專法之後當然就是政府要挹注新的資源進來嘛要不然就會造成很多我們現有原住民組委員擔心的就是所謂的排擠效應嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
439.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
467.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那再來你政府決定下多少資源之後我們才能去思考合理的管理或照顧相關的政策模式要怎麼樣的安排然後我們才能估出政策需求的時間嘛它其實是一環扣著一環來的嘛那我想請問以你現在來講總母數可能有120萬現在顯性短期內會認定符合所有要件可能會有20萬到30萬左右那請問我們這個專法如果順利的三讀通過之後我們的國家在多少時間內準備投入多少新增資源主委你心裡有個數字嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
468.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
477.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你最起碼我們馬上要做的就是語言文化的這個保存齁這個一定要做了對啊我們自己會裡面就可以來做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
479.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
506.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我現在給這個職位很好的機會因為你看你現在有一包預算好幾億對不對在做原文化保存未來可能短時間內就會有增加30萬被認為也是原住民好朋友的這些人嘛那你增加30萬人你要不要多一點預算嘛我其實就這樣但你心裡要有數字啊對不對我們現在心裡有數啦大概你光增加剛才講的語言文化的補助如果直接適用的話預算大概要增加到11億 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
507.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
534.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
當然要再增加11億嘛對不對那你就講這個就好了嘛我跟你講我們心裡要有一個很明確的數字因為你多少時間內要增加多少預算那你跟行政院長溝通了沒行政院長答應要給你這11億了嗎我有跟院長也已經在訂這個法的時候他們也有跟院長講增加多少人我們的預算當然就必須要增加來照顧我們的族人當然這個預算不是一下子全部就到位就好像講二三十萬那也許11億我們就可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
536.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
538.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
可以做是这样的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
538.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
567.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那所以你心裡你就是用二三十萬的人數去要求十一億的預算是這樣嗎是我們現在院長對你的承諾是什麼他有沒有一口答應就是趕快做不是他院長說本來這個預算的增加這不是研民會的事這是國家本來就是因為要照顧當然啊進來的主委但你要去申請因為你是主管機關嘛對當然就是要我們要估算出來大概要做哪些做哪些然後請求院裡面來協助那到底會不會明確的支援你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
597.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
就因為到了第四會期啦這個會期馬上結束之後對不對可能因為這個憲判有時間規定嘛有時間壓力我們一定要在十月前把它處理完處理完之後馬上我們就要編明年的預算嘛對不對那你到底會增加多少然後有沒有政府的保證支持那其實會關乎我們法案審查的時候會不會遇到阻力嘛如果你沒有辦法保證說我們政府會多給原住民更多的資源然後讓我們本來現在的山原跟平永安心對不對那到最後這法案就審查的時候很有可能會卡住啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
597.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
622.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
然後可能會造成更大的問題嘛 對不對所以我們今天花質詢的時間沒關係 我們後續還有法案審查的時間但是我們希望 第一個 人數的數字要明確第二個 投入的資源要明確第三 其實就是我們到時候在法案審查的時候會做討論也就是說 我憑普足加入之後他們立刻可以獲得什麼樣的保障這些東西我們都是希望在法案審查的過程中都原住民族委員會 你要做好心理準備捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
623.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
633.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
對不對要有這樣的一個政策調整就像我們高金委員講的要有能力來處理所以相關的資料今天詢答完之後要再做詳細的補充可以嗎好好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝委員 |