| video_url |
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| 會議時間 |
2024-11-20T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商「第11屆第2會期延長會期」相關事宜。二、研商「台灣民眾黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：成立『國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會』就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料，於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會，請公決案。」相關事宜。（台灣民眾黨黨團提議）三、研商有關「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」案。（國民黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
10201 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1947.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
1949.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
謝謝 現在三黨的幹部都已經有 我知道開的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1953.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1980.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好謝謝啊今天我們現在民黨團的吳思瑤跟蔡宇幹事長、書記長都到了我們國民黨團林思明書記長也到了我們蔓一貞副書記長也到了哈非常歡迎那我們就邊開會邊等時間一到我們就就不再等了哈好謝謝今天主要我們有三個議題要跟各位黨團幹部一起協商首先呢我們來先協商上一次有幾個黨邊說到研會的事情所以今天這是 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1983.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2009.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
比較著急甚至包括一些委員在休會期間要拜訪選民啊有一些等等安排也都變得很重要所以想請教一下三黨的各位黨團幹部我們這次演會的大家要認為要演一個星期演兩個星期演三個星期等等就請各位黨團幹部來表達意見首先哪一位黨團先發言上次好請吳思堯幹事長請發言林思明書記長請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2013.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2039.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
謝謝院長我想有關於研會的時間第一個我想勢必應當要研會因為總預算的延宕我們現在來趕進度也需要在法定的期程完成但恐怕也困難所以我們現在是在補課補進度所以人事同意權有四個那四個預算案那還有相關的法案所以民進黨團的立場是 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2043.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2065.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
當然上週我們協商好像已經講到一個一月二十四號的時間只要是有必要我們把會議的期程讓所有的議案都能夠完成審查好那一月二十四號當然也是主要就是看案子啦那我們對於就是最常會拉到一二四嘛那如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2067.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2095.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
情非得已就議案太多或者是延宕沒審的議案就是那麼多那恐怕到這一天也是不得不然我們必須在這個會期完成這個會期立法院職責該做的事情所以如果是當然也要看議事人員算一算我們審查的會議的時間剩多少那如果要這個就是情非得已一定要到最後一天一月二十四那我們當然就也願意來配合 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2096.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2105.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
謝謝吳世堯幹事長的發言。接下來請林思銘書記長發言,分層請準備。我想很高興聽到吳世堯幹事長對研會到1月24號,我想到1月24號, |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2112.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2137.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
24號、1月24號我想多留一些時間讓我們充分兜一種預算來做一個相關的審查總是好事因為假設說我們是到少一個禮拜假設還有很多議案沒有結束的話我想到過年大家很辛苦那如果說 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2138.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2161.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
能夠順利總預算順利能夠提早結束那我們現在預留這麼長的時間但是呢這還是有一個就是很好的一個彈性我們也可以提早結束啊所以留到就是到一月二十四號我覺得這個是最好最好的一目前來看是最好因為總預算可能我們以現在來評估的話應該要到二十四號以上謝謝謝謝林市長發言現在請吳春城幹事長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2164.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2189.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那個民眾黨也同意可以延長到24號可以就在法案當中如果有必要的話到最後或者是21號24號可能要到最後一週啦最後一週21、24對如果先延長然後到時候要提早應該是沒有意見的對不好意思啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2191.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2197.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那個三個黨團現在難得漢建立場一致那我們就休息三分鐘來溝通一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2489.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2517.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
好謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐剛才我們溝通的結果三黨的黨編一致認為我們研會到一月二十一號再一次請教各位黨編黨團幹部我們研會到一月二十一號有沒有其他意見OK好的好確定那我們現在來炒您剛才大家所協商的結論然後等一下再拜託各位黨團幹部請簽字好請稍待一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2570.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2578.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
謝謝現在我們再一次重申決定事項本第二會期延至一百一四年一月二十一日星期二止好跟黨團不搞我現在簽字要請大家好 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2765.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2774.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐大家在簽名都簽差不多了好謝謝再次感謝那現在我要跟各位黨團幹部報告一下現在已經我們確定21號我們延到21號就休會那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2782.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2806.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
現在我們要來協商附屬單位的密集協商。請問,哎,副總召來了,請坐。請問,對我知道,沒關係,我一個一個來。我們下一個禮拜,下個星期要進行附屬單位的密集協商。我們要發開會通知。請問,各位黨團幹部,我們下週哪一天適合開始密集協商?要請教,就教與各位黨團幹部,請大家共,共決。來,林思明書記長請,請發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2810.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2825.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
延長是下...就是請要先查一下下週我們預計就是下個禮拜從禮拜幾開始?星期二還是星期...預計有沒有預計?就是看大家的意見就從星期一就開始喔? |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2829.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2830.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們請吳思堯幹事長表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2845.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2872.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
謝謝院長我想因為大家都同時還有在委員會審查預算的職責所以密集協商是不是就排下午的時間那如果下午的時間因為週二的院會是正副院長的這個詢答考試院那也許大家可以有詢答去沒有就空出時間所以譬如說我認為禮拜二的下午禮拜五 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2873.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2886.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
也是詢答那個考委嘛齁禮拜五的下午二五的下午我們應該都可以然後禮拜四的下午應當也是可以啦二四五的下午應當都可以看看大家吳士堯幹什麼意思是說二三二五跟二六 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2904.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2929.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
報告院長,但是就是要審酌院長可能要在院會主持,或者是你們會,好不好意思,好謝謝。那再請教一下林市民院長請發言。報告院長,院長我們因為二十六號我們有行程,所以我們希望在二七開始。二十七、二八、二九、三四五,下個星期三、星期四、星期五。那如果可以的話,我們總共早上就可以。是民國一百三年的那個。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2933.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2938.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
對阿就是就下個禮拜三開始阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2949.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2973.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那如果一、四、五呢?二、七、二、八、二、九啦。二、七、二、八、二、九。二、七、二、八、二、九。林思銘書記長的意思是十一月二十六號星期二。十一月二十八號星期四。十一月二十九號星期五。不是。二十七號開始。星期三、星期四、星期五。十一月二十七號星期三。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2980.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2993.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
黃國昌總召也到了現在我們確定要密集協商附屬單位的也特別跟黃國昌總召民眾黨團幹部來報告一下現在民進黨所提的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2997.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
3005.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
262829但是林思明書記長提的是272829請問一下台灣民眾黨團有什麼寶貴意見沒有跟針對這個密集協商下星期我們要開要發開會通知請262829 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
3031.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
3035.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我想請教一下齁就所謂譬如說不管是27號還是28號 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
3046.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
3069.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
因為院長在忙,所以我先讓院長忙我們現在時間,對不起啊不會不會請說那個不好意思,我請教一下院長齁就不管是剛剛譬如說假設剛剛都有提到的27號或者是28號所謂的密集協商指的是從下午開始還是從上午開始下午開始嘛所以下午開始就比較不會去影響到我們早上在各個委員會27號 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3073.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3088.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我這邊方便的是,我這邊整個院本部這邊方便行的也是二六、二八、二九。我們需要排幾天啊?三天,最少三天。可是我們二十六號可能會比較麻煩一點點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3095.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3120.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
對,如果是二七、二八、二九的話跟我們現在看到的時程比較不會有衝突啦因為黨團有一些其他已經發出開會通知的公聘會那那個我們已經發出開會通知了嘛那我如果說要取消改期要通知那麼多人全部再重新搞一次這樣子不好意思啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3121.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3142.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
也就是說台灣民眾黨團也是希望27、28、29請問那個吳思瑤幹事長請問有沒有什麼我想28、29大家都OK好就是剩下26或27那大家商量看看那如果25呢25禮拜一的下午就大家瞧看看有沒有可能就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3145.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3167.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那個我先請教一下如果是二十五的下午的話我們會到幾點因為我本來因為我不知道所謂的密集協商是下午開始我們就一路到晚上十二點還是會到六點因為這個會影響到大家工作的安排密集協商一旦換就是有可能直接從下午例如三點就有可能到十二點 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3168.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3194.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那這樣的話對不起,二十五號沒有辦法。還是二十五號就是先下午嘛,譬如說兩點到六點,然後二八、二九再看狀況,一定拉長一定是最後一天才在拉長嘛。那個,呃,幹長我請教一下,二十七號你們那邊是決定不行的?二十七,那如果二十七的話可以譬如說三點再開始嗎?好啊好啊,那如果這樣二十七可以啊,好那二十七、二十八、二十九? |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3194.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3220.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好啊好啊好啊,那這樣OK,我本來想說會一點多,還可以272829,好,那這樣好。好,那再一次跟大家報告,請副國務卿總召。呃,院長齁。 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3225.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3235.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
剛剛很抱歉因為我們黨團還有會議所以我們現在第一個就是一月二十一號是我們研會的最後一天這個待會 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3239.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3265.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
國民黨會簽字因為聽說是院長才是我們尊重我們總是希望能開到二十四號那居然說我們立法院本院有一些工作上的時程的需求那到一月二十一號院會結束我們競表同意那對於這個協商的部分我覺得黨團幹部有黨團幹部的職責那抄以協商為什麼一定要下午開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3267.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3291.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
早上其實就應該要開始了那因為啊接下來因為我們第一個為什麼會提到21號除了院長才是以外因為接下來還有很多預算案的討論各黨團委員所提出來的這些預算案的討論都會曠日廢時啊也大家要投入更多的時間這才會想說早上九點就可以開始討論了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3292.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3317.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
為什麼一定要下午而且早上討論大家也說實在也比較輕專注力也更高那第二個就是說黨團幹部啊反正各黨就三位嘛黨團幹部當然你還在距離各委員會我想還是以整個黨團的工作為主要主要因為我們各黨團也要對院方要負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3319.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3345.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
所以應該是黨團幹部做黨團幹部的職責各委員會去做各委員會該做的事情我覺得這樣子我們早上九點就可以開始本來可以一天結束的不需要拉兩三天嘛兩天可以結束的不需要拉三天嘛我想這樣的話是不是給大家做一個參考好不好好因為現在跟各黨的幹部報告我要請那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3347.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3368.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
台灣民眾黨要發言嗎?黃組長?沒有齁?那我想請高處長解釋一下,請。跟各位黨編報告齁,過去在預算案的密集協商的時候,因為各委員會的專門委員,他相對應的那個委員會,他要來密集協商做幕僚。那現在因為常設委員會,目前早上都在開會。以上給大家補充。 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3370.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3398.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
所以特別跟副總統報告因為現在各委員會還在開會所以我們就選下午時間來密集協商如果而後有其他的議案啊預算案等等大家早上時間都可以我們當然可以早上九點開始協商這個絕對沒問題我相信這個大家都有默契好不好那二十一號為什麼請二十一號截止也請不要二十四號就是因為所有的預算案審查完畢之後院本部還要有時間來處理這些剩下的這些事情所以說二十一號之後休會之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3399.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3421.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
二二二三二四院裡面所有的各個整個機器都動起來要審查後續所有的一些事情需要給他們一點一點點時間這邊一併跟大家報告一下好不好好那就確定我們請副會長請因為我們還是要再一次來確認一下因為這個事情是很嚴肅的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3422.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3444.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
查理協商在尤其在預算年度的話那真的是千絲萬縷好多好多各種委員各種選區都不同有提出很多的問題我們都必須在這裡討論是真的要花很多的時間那至於說早上九點鐘是理所當然可以開始但是說碰到委員會碰到委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3446.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3473.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
如果當天已有開的,比方說我們現在審查交通預算的整體的協商一案一案來那如果交通委員會今天要去排部長到交通委員會備詢如果時間有抵觸的話,我們都可以再調整嘛但是時間上還是從早上是比較適合因為呢,我們一次進行也是一個部會進行完再下一個部會嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3474.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3498.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那那個部會的時候因為每一個委員會都可以排不只一個部會的巡打當草野協商在進行的時候那個委員會可以調整到其他的部會所以我想這個請議事處就是草野協商為主要跟哪個就盡量不要跟委員會去衝突這應該是可以協調的 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3502.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3529.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
對,就是因為首長要來嘛,要到草野協商備詢,所以我剛剛提到最主要就是說,不要跟委員會的,比如說交通委員會要求交通部長到委員會去備詢的時候,那個時間我們草野協商當然可以九點舉行,但是我們不要去審查,不要去處理這個交通部的預算就好了。這個我想都可以協調的啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3532.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3554.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
基本上我們來協調,我覺得各黨團幹部去協調各黨團內部的召委,不要,盡量不要跟超級行動去衝突,因為那畢竟是各委員所提出來的案子。好,謝謝副管理總統,請吳思堯幹事長請發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3556.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3577.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我想就請大家思考看看因為剛剛好不容易喬出272829的三個下午三點開始大家應當時間都可以這樣那就我過去的經驗每一次在協商這個就是密集協商那個預算的時候他定在下午都有原因的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3578.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3606.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
當然就是讓議事人員方便而且現在各個委員會都密集在審預算當然剛剛副總召說去協調也不是不行只是就會增加了很多交接換手的這個還包括這些部會首長要來參與協商所以單純化啦就這三天就先來試行大家時間也都可以嘛沒有說因為這三天時間已經卡住了嘛對不對我們原本就預估三個下午來試看看那如果真的再不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3607.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3617.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那後面再來增加上午的時間因為剛剛我的理解是如果27、28、29大家下午都有問題的話那可能才要想到說調到早上 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3618.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3640.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
可是既然三個下午剛剛三檔都可以了我們就先這樣優先來處理那就我個人來講我是非常重視我想易宇燕也是我除了是黨邊的身份當然我們早上在部會詢答預算我們也是同等的關切所以是希望能夠取其balance是除非沒有辦法協調才有要取捨的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3643.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3662.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
但是如果時間可控那我希望都兼顧眼前的工作預算的審查跟這個預算的協商都能夠兼顧所以請求二七二八二九如果三四五下午的三點開始三檔大家時間都OK的話就照這個時間先排看看謝謝謝謝請副會長再次發言請院長本期剛剛講這些事情是大家一起來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3672.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3682.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那272829三天剛剛院長已經提了國民黨也有提出272829三天這三天我們當然可以配合但我不是在講這三天因為未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3684.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3704.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我們不曉得各政黨會提出多少的提案需要來討論我們是建議讓我們的效率上能夠更加的提升可以從早上九點開會就可以早上九點開好不好那至於說跟委員會有衝堂的部分都可以去協商嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3704.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3723.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
對不對由議事處這裡啊來跟我們來溝通齁然後各黨團去協調嘛主要是國民黨跟民進黨去協調嘛自己的召委嘛協調一下不要跟這個這個用會的草野協商來衝突嘛主要是這樣子嘛好不好非常好副科技總召用心良苦啦我懂那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3725.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3735.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
請各黨團幹部來我來嘗試一下做個小結論好不好我們附屬單位的密集協商就定在11月27號下午3點28、29下午3點連續三天這是第一個第二個勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3740.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3766.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
附屬單位預算之後而後還有其他重要的議案也好預算也好我們以後朝野協商就不拘泥不拘泥只有一次下午有的時候也可以從早上九點開始我想這個剛剛副總召所講的這個我覺得是可以採納的只要大家能夠確定這個時間是OK的話我們必要時早上九點十點開始協商也沒有問題我想這是也跟大家一併報告那我們先確定十一月二七二八二九下午三點開始附屬單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3767.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3770.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
協商好嗎?好,確定。好,謝謝。我們也定下來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3774.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3798.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我們就不在再來我就要跟大家報告我們今天所討論的協商的第二案台灣民眾黨團建請院會決作成決議成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會上一次呢我們國發會還有列席的司法院法務部的官員都已經發言完畢各位委員也已經發言完畢請教今天黨團幹部有沒有意見要補充請蔡依瑜書記長請好 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3805.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3827.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
謝謝院長那針對這個民眾黨團建請的這個決議他的內容是說成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料．於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會那這個案我們從 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3832.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3852.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
這個提案的名稱就可以發現說國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職哇這個名字從這個名稱起來就覺得他的範圍是過大那這個範圍過大範圍就沒有辦法確定這件事情勒事實上在於立法院職權行使法45條第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3854.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3878.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
他講得很清楚是四五條的第三項說調查委員會的名稱、調查事項、目的、方法及成員人數由院會議決之也就是我們在院會議決的時候就必須要把調查委員會的名稱、調查事項、目的、方法及成員人數要做一個決定這個是在院會議決但是在這一次的限訴法第九條也 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3879.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3892.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
講得很清楚因為他就這個調查的方法跟事項在我們這個宣判制的第九號裡面第四十五條這個立法院行為行使法第四十五條第三項我現在是念這個宣判制的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3898.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3917.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
應經議會議決之調查事項括號含範圍目的及方法尚需具體明確所以這個具體明確就很重要了然後必立據與行使調查權之行使是否立法院憲法職權之行使有重大關聯而且必要所以這個範圍必須要明確那如果範圍沒有明確的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3921.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3942.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
基本上就會構成了有違憲之餘．因為他這邊選．於此前提下．其規定史不勝抵觸憲法的一個問題．那尤其他的後段還有講喔．你對於調查方法中．你涉及到你要克與政府人員．或人民的陳述證言表示意見的．協助調查義務的．你的對象跟義務的範圍．這個也要經過院會的議決． |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3950.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3954.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
所以說我們一開始就要先設定好我們到底這個調查事項要調查什麼那如果我們在上一次協商的時候民眾黨有提到說因為他是為了要修法然後這個修法有涉及到未來國家發展基金他在投資的時候有幾個項目包括說可能涉及到有虧損他不能去做紓困或者涉及到說他在中國有重大投資那我們的國發基金就不要再去 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3979.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3994.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
投資在中國在主要業務在中國就的印象是這樣那如果是這樣的話基本上就要講清楚啊說到底哪一個好如果上次說聯合再生那我們就講清楚說我們要調查聯合再生 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3995.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4013.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
如果他是說涉及到紓困上次有講到爐心那就把爐心講清楚這是我們的調查範圍但是我們現在這個名稱看起來對於範圍這件事情是沒有特定的沒有特定的話基本上就會陷入到了第45條第三項這個範圍沒有具體明確那就直接會跑到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4018.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4044.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
限訴法第九條的違憲所以我還是具體建議院長說我們真的需要就限訴法第九條那跟現在的立法院行為行使法未來他要怎麼去做相對應的適應那哪一些法條未來應該要怎麼行使那我們是不是要先特定後我們再來討論要成立調查委員會那以上是我的一個具體建議謝謝謝謝蔡議員書記長的發言接下來黃國昌總召請補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4048.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4073.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
之前上一次其實已經講得很明確綁了特定議案就是產狀條例修法的議案至於說剛剛蔡議員所講的憲判制的判決大家都有看我們當然就是按照憲判制具體下去做我覺得可能從民進黨的角度上面來看是應該先修法修完法以後再來做那我們完全抱持不一樣的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4075.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4104.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
憲判治理也沒有宣告違憲的部分那我們就可以繼續做阿等到院會作成了決議以後如果民主金不當黨團認為通過這樣一個調查委員會本身就是違憲的話台灣是一個民主法治的國家該怎麼做就怎麼做但我是不會同意啦再透過協商這個程序去拖延或者是去阻礙我們接下來所提出來的議案因為上個禮拜五我本來就要處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4105.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4118.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
但我覺得院長出來調和頂賴院長說其他黨團想要再講一些話我基本上也不尊重那他們要講的話今天也講了嘛那我們接下來就按照程序來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4120.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4137.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
國民黨團林士明書記長請發言好 謝謝院長我想剛才參與阿書記長的疑慮我也在這邊說明一下其實如果依照這樣子的一個標題來成立我們的調查委員會不會跟憲判制第九號有所違背 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4138.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4165.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
就是說剛才蔡議員提到說這個會違反調查的範圍、目的、方法、明確性的一個原則其實我想這整個題目就講得很清楚就特定議案所以特定議案到時候這個調查委員會成立之後當然要調查什麼樣的特定議案一定會在調查委員會成立之後就會提出來所以這個不存在所謂的跟憲判之第九號 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4167.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4190.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
有漢格的一個地方這是第一個要說明的第二個就是說其實我們在整個第二次委員會成立之後當然就是依照我們這個憲判之地所這個認定合憲的這個例子法來做相關的一個調查我想這是我們國會行使監督制衡行政單位非常重要的一個這個調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4193.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4209.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
那我想這也是樹立我們這個因為憲判之第九號我們新的歷史法三讀通過之後到底立法院如何來洗指調查權這是首創啊所以我們覺得我們應該要支持啊好 好 謝謝好 吳世耀幹事長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4213.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4226.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
謝謝我想這個是我自己已經多次在論述立法院成立調查委員會你把這一個手段跟你的修法的工具有沒有對等 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4228.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4251.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
恕我直言民眾黨要針對產創條例第30條來修法產創條例30條民眾黨的條文是要增加最後一項也就是增加第二項要針對國發基金的運用得運用於什麼情形不得運用於什麼情形的單一項的修法恕我直言要修這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4252.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4267.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
要去對於我們增訂這一項是否合宜其實要召開的是公聽會而不是去成立調查委員會我們在審查非常多的法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4268.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4291.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
內容有疑義跟公共事務相關或是涉及特定團體本身那麼公聽會就是我們最常運用的一個手段跟方式那以我看到民眾黨產串條第30條對於國發基金的運用你想要去界定到底是不是以來投資於 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4292.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4307.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
企業虧損之紓困,適不適宜投資於主要生產活動位於中國大陸之企業,適不適宜投資於過去三年違反環保、勞工、食安等情節重大的事宜,坦白講,這個修法非常的不困難。 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4311.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4324.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
我不要說它非常簡單這甚至召開公聽會在經濟委員會或者是要聯席委員會委員都有足夠的資訊能夠來有利於這個條例的修法如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4325.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4343.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
所以說不要無限上綱就我來看今天民眾黨要成立調查委員會然後也知道憲判的要求調查權是立法委員的輔佐性的權利他必須跟他的職權行使有重大關聯者 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4345.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4372.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
那他的職權行使有重大關聯者．包括是審法案也好．或是審預算也好．恕我直言．現在為了調查而調查．然後去．拿一個我要修產創條例30條．就我來看這是非常粗糙的．一個兜出來的理由．Sorry這是我的觀察．這是我的觀點．所以要開的．好．就說我以小人之心度君子之腹好了． |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4374.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4394.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那如果要修產創條例三十條您的增加這一項你真的需要的是一場公聽會一場不夠可以開兩場可以開三場而不是漫天的包山包海的要針對國發基金來成立一個調查委員會我也要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4396.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4416.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
如果要了解相關的法律非常多,如果要修運動發展基金的運發條例,那是不是未來省運發條例的每一條都要成立一個針對運動產業投資的調查委員會呢?不應當如此嗎?或者是我們要了解國家對於文創產業、文化獎勵條例的投資, |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4421.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4439.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
要修法,所以就要去成立對於國家投資、文策院用投融資的方式來投入台灣的文化產業要成立一個調查委員會然後包山包海,漫無目的我認為這樣子的手段跟目的是顯然不對等 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4440.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4451.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
所以呢剛剛蔡易如委員蔡易如委員書記長也提到因為上週的協商黃總召黃國昌總召先行離開了可能我在做這個發言的時候您已經不在場了 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4452.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4475.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
我手上拿出來的是國發基金二零二三的年報或者是一百一十三年第二季最新的年報我們都可以清楚的看到國發基金的投資有多少重要新興事業的投資就有七十二個公司我手上這一本七十二個公司就是重要新興事業投資這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4477.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4500.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
第二種叫專案投資專案投資裡面有中小企業的投資我們創產業的投資策略性服務業的投資跟策略性製造業的投資每一項都投資了上百間公司這是第二大類叫專案投資國發基金投資的第三大類叫做創業投資事業的投資也是幾百項 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4501.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4514.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
第四大類是就是我們五本席一直投入的就是天使基金我們要對於這些startup初期的創投的投資創業天使投資方案也是幾百項的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4516.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4539.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
那麼還有一項是疫情之後影響新創事業的專案投資所以加總起來國發基金的我等一下可以請副主委講嘛就是上千間吧我難以數計的投資案我不曉得黃國昌委員我說您的這個調查案所謂國發基金的不當投資這漫無目的請問你是要這數千家公司都要來調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4542.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4557.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
安內布迪布告包山包海就為了您要修產創條例三十條增加一項這是一個不對等的您真的需要的是開公聽會而不是調查委員會甚至如果就條文論條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4559.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4571.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
黃國昌委員您對於產創條例三十條您顯然想要用調查委員會來有利於您在修法當中的論述就是國發基金適不適宜來投資企業虧損之紓困。 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4574.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4603.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
如果舊條文論條文,國發基金它當然沒有辦法去投資的每一間公司都是沒有虧損的。如果大家都要去投會賺錢的,那還需要國發基金嗎?尤其對於新創這種初期的,它必然是會有一段時間它有風險,它會有虧損。如果您對於這個條文只要國發基金,你認為投到虧損的企業好像就是不對的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4604.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4628.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
我認為這樣是對於整個投資的大環境是完全的曲解跟錯解所以我再次說請把立法院職權行使法第八章有關調查權之行使現在部分違憲部分合憲它已經是一個拼裝車式的調查權的行使先把法修好 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4630.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4653.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
先把法修好再來成立調查委員會這樣立法院的調查委員會才會更有強而有力的武器而不是現在前後的條文彼此有矛盾有漢格那這樣子的調查顯然也沒有辦法全面跟合理所以我再次奉勸 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4655.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4669.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
剛剛黃總召一直在說言下之意就是啊今天協商公共會啊你說你的我也不想要聽啦吼然後呢啊就照程序黃國昌總召的意思就是啊院會就表決就好了我還是希望院長您應當您應當 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4672.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4695.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
在這個議案上採取立法院應當有的態度跟立場被宣判違憲的國會擴權法案當中很大一包叫做調查權立法院現在是不是優先要針對調查權相關的修法做好才適宜去成立任何一個單一的調查委員會我認為院長您應當要有這個高度跟態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4695.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4724.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
否則在這種拼裝車之下法沒修好這裡也要調查委員會那裡也要調查委員會我認為這樣子的調查是為調查而調查沒有意義。謝謝司也、幹事長。黃國昌總召請二十分。王宏威首席副市長請準備。其實我覺得坐在這邊討論事情的時候我的希望就是論事啦。所以我就不希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4726.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4748.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
好像指名道姓的說人家如何但如果要這樣子發言的話我其實也可以這樣發言就是說其實我也奉勸吳思瑤委員在討論事實的時候可能要本於事實的基礎你說你上次發言的時候我人不在場不會啊你上次發言的時候我人在場 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4749.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4767.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
你剛剛所講的內容啊大概有百分之八十以上你上一次全部都講過今天只是搬來再重新講一次而已啊那個院長可不可以制止他剛剛你在講話的時候我都沒有插嘴嘛然後我現在坐在這邊講話你不斷的干擾啊院長可以克制他嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4775.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4804.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
OK好所以啦我還是奉勸吳世耀委員說話本於事實的基礎你上次講的時候我在這邊我從頭到尾聽啊聽完了以後我才發言的啊我從頭到尾把這個調查委員會到底跟哪個議案綁在一起解釋得很清楚啦上次討論的時候不管是鍾嘉賓委員還是吳世耀委員都強調啊說要跟特定的議案綁在一起啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4805.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4829.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
所以我才很清楚的講啊我在提調查委員會的提案以前產狀條例的修法草案我已經提出來了啊那你總不可能說看到調查委員會的時候先質疑你說你這個不行啊你要跟法律案綁在一起啊你要跟預算案綁在一起啊結果後來發現人家真的有跟法律案綁在一起的時候又開始轉另外一個論述 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4832.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4857.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
轉180度說你這個法律案很簡單啊這個開公聽會就好啦這何必要開調查委員會一個法案在處理的時候到底適合開公聽會或者是要成立調查委員會連接聽證會我想每一個提案的委員每一個提案的黨團都有他心裡面他的目的他的打算嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4858.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4878.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
那民進黨認為說啊這個開公聽會就好了那我就很直接講嘛台灣民眾黨黨團競表不同意嘛我們認為這個要成立調查委員會而且要連結聽證會才有辦法達到我們想要達到的目的嘛我在討論這個法條的時候想 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4880.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4903.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
說欸國家發展基金不可以成為紓困基金我上次開會的時候講得很清楚啊提這個論述的人不是我這也不是我獨唱的啊潘孟安秘書長在當立法委員的時候就一而再再而三強調啊甚至以前民進黨在野還有理想性的時候說什麼欸國家發展基金啊這個管理要用條例啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4904.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4933.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
怎麼可以用行政命令的方式用行政命令授權的方式國家發展基金搞去胡搞瞎搞變成紓困基金國家發展基金不可以成為紓困基金啊所以我們才提這個案子嘛那第二個那我們國家發展基金到底有沒有成為紓困基金的現象那這個正是調查委員會要處理的事情嘛如果國家發展基金就沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4934.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4953.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
成為紓困基金的現象或是我們國發基金雖然投了虧損的公司但是我們經過調查經過聽證以後發現他一開始利益良善他一開始利益良善投資決策都沒有錯我們要鼓勵一些新創的 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4955.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4969.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
提升產業轉型的投的都沒有錯那以後我們如果立這個條款法會二殺我們國發基金對於投資對於新創對於產業轉型的需求那因此這個條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4971.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4999.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
不宜把它立下去也有可能得到這樣子的結論嘛那總是經過一個程序了以後你所得到的事證資料提供所有立委充足的參考依據來作為最後我們在審理議案的基礎嘛而不是一人一把號各吹各的調大家看法都不一樣但相反的如果調查下去的話調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5001.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5020.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
欸我們國發基金在投的時候有的時候真的投一些不僅僅是虧損嚴重甚至是莫名其妙的投資決策什麼叫莫名其妙的投資決策我們怎麼會去投牛仔褲的代工廠這個是哪一個新創還是哪一個轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5024.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5044.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
我完全看不到新創我也完全看不到轉型去投資一個牛仔褲的代工廠然後工廠全部都設在中國大陸然後從台灣的資本市場從國庫裡面搬錢去對面在那邊虧虧到現在股票變幣紙沒有人要負責船過水無痕反正是納稅人的錢嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5051.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5080.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
有什麼關係?欸大家調查出來以後看到這樣子的結果覺得欸這樣不行欸我們有進一步控管的必要甚至覺得我們提出來那個條文控管的還不夠嚴格要再增加也沒有問題啊這個就是我們成立這個調查委員會跟公定會連結的必要性嘛那如果真的要講到憲判的話老實講憲判也沒那麼複雜嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5081.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5105.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
主要多數的條文都合憲啊但不能處罰處罰就違憲從調查權的行使一路到刑法那個部分都一樣啊我們的大法官創造一個非常重要的中華民國憲政價值啊就是早來調查委員會備詢的時候可以說謊不准處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5107.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5134.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
說謊沒有關係不來也沒有關係你如果說謊不來就要處罰就違憲我們大法官宣告的憲政價值全台灣人民都看得很清楚了嘛有人認同有人反對台灣是一個多元民主的社會各種聲音通通都有嘛我個人是反對但是我們反對歸反對我們還是尊重體制嘛尊重這個體制 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5136.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5164.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
我對這個判決的結果很遺憾我覺得這一群大法官去宣告在台灣的國會說謊不可以處罰是我們的憲政價值我覺得很遺憾那遺憾歸遺憾我今天還是按照立法院職權行使法的規定符合宪判制的要求提出我們的提案那其他黨的委員有不同的看法我也尊重台灣本來就是一個多元民主的社會 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5166.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5183.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
那我只是希望說當大家有不一樣看法的時候那難不成是要在這邊拖到大家有一致看法才能夠處理如果大家沒有一致的看法只要民主進步黨的黨團代表反對這件事情就沒有辦法處理恐怕遊戲規則也不是這個樣子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5185.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5187.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
以上針對第二次的發言,簡短回應,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5205.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5227.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
我想先謝謝院長再次針對這次我們要針對國發基金來成立調查委員會再度的協商因為事實上在上一次的協商裡面其實我們針對國發基金裡面的它包含的一些投資虧損甚至是弊案其實大家已經講得非常清楚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5228.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5232.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那當然就是其實我想現在的民進黨因為他擺出來態度非常的明確也就是說就是反對成立這個調查委員會但是呢我覺得這樣子一直透過冗長的發言或者像這樣倒帶式的一直在做這些重複我覺得只是浪費時間跟拖延而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5253.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5277.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
那我必須講的就是說其實我們在這一次所提出來的成立調查委員會已經基於在這次釋憲案國會改革的釋憲案之後那麼在我們的院會成立調查委員會已經是合憲的而且我們也願意遵守按照依照我們的立法院職權行使法來成立調查委員會我不曉得還有什麼問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5282.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5310.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
如果說今天我們成立調查委員會．變成合憲也不讓你成立．然後你說不合憲也不讓你成立．那到底我們立法院的職權在哪裡．我覺得不能那麼阿拔了．還有一點．我也覺得我們各政黨．擁護有不同的立場．但是不需要來下指導旗． |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5312.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5323.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我覺得各政黨都有可能提案修法那麼在提案修法的過程裡面需要成立調查委員會或者是聽證會來補強加強那請問一下這樣有什麼問題呢為什麼要去指導人家說啊你應該去成立你應該去用公聽會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5334.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5356.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我覺得不需要下這樣的指導期吧如果我們今天的朝野協商變成你動不動就要來指導其他的政黨我覺得沒有必要而且也是浪費時間另外我也沒有辦法接受我們在協商的過程裡面大家各抒己見嘛什麼在指導院長要有應當要有什麼樣的態度院長應當要有什麼樣的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5361.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5378.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
院長不是在協商嗎?不是在尊重每一個政黨代表的發言嗎?如果今天我們的協商變成動不動在下指導期,可以指導其他政黨,還可以指導院長應該持什麼樣的態度,這是協商嗎?我們是來聽訓的吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5381.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5393.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
那至於國家發展基金應不應該成立調查委員會我上次就說過我們走出這個會議室大家看大家對國家發展基金的評價是什麼不停的虧損不停的踩雷不停的出現弊案立法院成立一個調查委員會給人民一個報告有何不可不應該嗎人民沒有知的權利嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5411.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5417.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
而且按照如果說按照這個現在民進黨的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5418.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5424.651 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
如果不修法就不能成立調查委員會的話那麼我們根本就沒有辦法成立任何的調查委員會啊那這樣的拖延我覺得這是不合理的所以啊我想院長辛苦了也許院長待會我們再告一段落真的應該做出一個決定我們應該做一些處理吧否則的話我們只是不停的在聽訊啊我們沒有道理我們也沒有這個義務啊在接受別人的指導以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5448.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5471.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
你再聽訊,我聽訊最多。好,謝謝。我們蔡易瑜、蘇議長請發言。黃國昭總召集準備。好,我第二次發言。那,我想我要強調的就是說,我們現在行使的法律是立法院行為行使法第45條第三項。調查委員會的名稱、事項、目的、方法、成員人數由院會議決。 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5473.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5483.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
所以就表示說你這個名稱、調查事項、目的、方法、成員人數都必須要用會議決。所以必須在這一個法案裡面,這一個議決案裡面,大家的事情講清楚。 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5487.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5503.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
要不然這件事情所以絕對不是一個我要成立國家發展基金不當調查委員會這樣就代表代表我這件事情講清楚因為我們要議決嘛議決的意思就是說法案的名稱大家講清楚然後大家來討論然後最後做出決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5504.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5513.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
然後這個憲判之第九號基本上也把這個都講得很清楚喔我們就看憲判之第九號的第五項他就講得很清楚我們這個議決的調查事項含範圍應該要具體明確這我剛才講過我就不要再追溯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5522.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5547.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
所以勒,你這個範圍沒有具體明確的話,聽一公,你現在對於被調查的機關,他就處在一個,到底要調查哪些?剛剛我們幹事長也有列舉,事實上國發基金所投資的項目非常的多,甚至很多公司是屬於天使投資,他是新創公司,他剛開始成立的時候,國家推他一把,這個未必, |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5548.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5570.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
他未必有到賺錢他可能早期是虧損的那也有很多投資事實上是賺錢的所以事實上這個國發會在於前兩次協商的時候都表達不能說國發基金的投資是賺錢的就代表他一定沒有弊案但是也不能說他是虧損的就代表他一定是弊案 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5571.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5596.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
所以這個國家基金這個意思就是說你這個範圍你沒有工程車那你到底要調查什麼那我現在再來講關鍵的下面的一個文字我們這一次宣判是第九號第五段的第四項講得很清楚就立法院行使行為行使法第四十五條你要發動調查權你成立調查委員會的時候經過其他憲法機關主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5598.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5619.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
有逾越憲法上的權限表達反對國發會有表達反對自生權限爭議的時候相關憲法機關應盡可能協商解決所以院長應該要跟國發會這邊應該要有一個協商跟行政院或者是國發會應該有一個協商解決或尋其他適當憲法途徑處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5621.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5630.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
如果沒有做這樣的一個處理的話協商未果那基本上最後一行我就不用全唸立法院尚不得盡為調查權之行使立法院不得 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5635.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5653.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
竟為調查權之行使。我想這文字都講得很清楚所以我看到民眾黨國民黨批判這一個大法官解釋講很久了啦那重點是文字就長在這你們都不就憲判制的內容文字大家來做有效的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5654.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5673.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
你們還在堅持說我就是要調查國發基金啊國發基金的不當調查哇範圍到底是怎樣我們從頭到尾我都一直強調到底範圍是哪些項目你可以說好我就是要調查爐心啊我要調查聯合再生就在我們的決議案裡面要寫清楚啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5674.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5703.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
因為這是未來要議決的啊所以再讓我再讓我補充啦齁如果我們這種調查是這種齁安捏齁都漫無目的的齁然後就是說什麼都可以調查然後如果大家跳出來說喔我想要調查政黨的政治現金不當使用或者是非法使用或者是非法移轉到私人那如果我們只成立這個那有個人跳出來說欸我要因為有這樣的一個調查委員會我就要調查目可 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5704.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5721.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
可以這樣嗎?不可以因為一開始沒有講清楚嘛因為你就成立了一個調查委員會你指的是這個政黨不當那就包山包海不可以這樣應該一開始就講清楚我們是要調查哪一件政治現金不當使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5722.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5729.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
哪一件的政治獻金,它的核銷有問題,講清楚哪一件。我不能就審理一件,我保守我保害,我跟他講,木殼拿來問,以後有哪一家的,我再拿來問,可以這樣嗎?不可以。 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5738.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5767.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
謝謝蔡宇書記長的第三輪發言接下來請黃國昌總召第三輪發言謝謝喔我想民進黨啊那個蔡議委員把他們的意思又重複的再講了一次我們大家都聆聽到了嘛那憲判制的判決大家都會去看嘛我們就按照條文按照判決該怎麼走就怎麼走嘛等到成立了以後我們的行政院認為有問題因為其實我們的大法官也是煞費苦心啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5768.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5797.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
幫我們立法院的調查權啊設下了重重關卡真的是重重關卡那沒有關係大法官非常的體貼幫我們的行政部門設下了重重關卡立法院不要輕易的啟動調查權白紙黑字我們大家都看到啊白紙黑字都看到嘛那行政院到時候有意見沒有關係啊就按照大法官的指示嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5799.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5824.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
有爭議的時候就按照爭議處理程序來進行嘛那看到時候台灣每一個公民啊大家都有眼睛都有耳朵大家心裡都有一把尺台灣就是一個民主社會大家心裡有一把尺嘛每一個機關每一個委員所展現的態度 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5825.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5845.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所抱持的政治立場自己要負政治責任跟整個社會負責任台灣民眾黨黨團我們提了這個案子如果社會認為不應該成立如果社會認為我們成立這個調查委員會是所謂的包山包海漫無目的 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5846.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5867.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
那社會當然會懲罰我們嘛但我要說的是什麼你說包三包還漫無目的沒有啊我認為我跟特定的議案範圍我會處理得很明確啊啊如果到時候你覺得不明確沒有辦法處理那就看行政部門要怎麼做就怎麼做嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5871.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5894.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
謝謝黃國昌總召接下來請國民黨團第三人發言之後我要做處理請傅坤祺總召發言謝謝院長因為這個問題從上一次的朝野協商就討論到這一次所以因為我們每一次的朝野協商都非常的冗長而且一直在圍繞同樣的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5897.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5924.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
所以剛剛本席為什麼說院長很辛苦院長也說自己受氣包受氣最多事實上也是如此再接著下來為什麼我會提到說早上九點就開始協商因為未來碰到這樣不斷的事情一個案子要協商在朝野協商是經過了多少過程一個提案出來要經過 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5925.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5953.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
委員會之前的一個連署再送到議事處再經過程序委員會再經過院會的復議院會通過以後再經過復議期才到委員會來排委員會討論之後可能一次可能幾次不曉得出委員會以後再到委員會的協商然後再到院會的協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5954.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5982.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
我們很多的法案都要這樣走雖然2016年蘇嘉全院長已經表示委員會的協商一次或者院會的協商一次就可以交給院會來處理但是我們在這一屆立委任內不管是院長的態度也好還是在野黨的態度我們都尊重執政黨盡可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5983.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6006.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
沒有遵照2016年蘇嘉全立法院長的決議院會的決議我們的盡可能做的法案先經過委員會的初委員會之後還要經過委員會的各政黨協商才到院長主持的朝野協商我們一定要把這些先續名我們是經過很完整的 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6008.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6029.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
程序才到院長的協商到院長的協商如果我們還要找到委員會所有的事再來講一次兩次三次那真的是我們要上廁所的上廁所真的要出去呼吸監控器的因為我們都不曉得同樣的事情聽了這麼多次還要再聽嗎我已經很不想再講話了但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6030.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6055.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
我走過就留下痕跡所以我們這個身為國民黨國會最大黨我們還是很尊重的把一些過去的發言我們現在的調查報告講一下我先講監察院的審查報告本席宣讀一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6057.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6085.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
對國發基金．連續虧損至投資事業．為落實評估檢討．及適時研擬處置措施．影響基金管理效能．狀況非常嚴重。再過來對於已經沒有財政目的．政策意義．或已經偏離投資目的． |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6087.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6115.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
這些事業也沒有落實退場機制這些監察委員全部是民進黨提名的監察委員所作出的監察報告對國發基金的抨擊是非常的嚴重再過來監察院的審計部我們再念一下國會預算中心所作出的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6118.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6144.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
產業創新轉型基金它的部分投資發生了公司治理欠佳或是公司已經面臨解散相關的情勢但是沒有加強監督也沒有事實研擬退場的方案再過來一百一十二年度這個是最嚴重的有逾半數的直接投資事業呈現虧損 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6147.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6173.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
而且其中的事業有連續虧損三年以上或者損失超過十億這都是民脂民膏本席為什麼提到一百一十二年度我們所有四大基金啊四大基金啊都看得到民間的投資基金啊投信啊都在發大財啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6175.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6203.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
都在賺大錢啊這個國發基金竟然還在虧損還預半數以上的投資是虧損不可思議啊再過來創業投資事業啊計畫向在營運中之創業投資事業近三成平均投資報酬率為負數這老百姓的錢再過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6206.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6224.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
創業天使投資方案一百一十二年度它的資訊力未達五成且部分的投資事業辦理減資什麼叫減資虧損連連的公司要減資或辦理解散解散是什麼意思公司倒閉 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6226.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6254.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
這是我們國會的預算中心所做的評估難道國發基金不應該來好好調查嗎再過來對不起總共留下痕跡現在中華民國的大總管潘孟安先生在立法院過去的發言國發基金是來自於人民的血汗錢但是如果用途沒有規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6256.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6285.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
就變成大開方便之門還居然沒有任何的法律規範潘孟安當時他講本席認為其其不可國家發展基金的運用必須要明文的條例化當然了國會的大總管我們敬愛的柯老柯總召說 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6287.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6316.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
政府應該扮演管理的角色不應該辦理投資的角色這就嚴重了國家基金怎麼可以辦理投資的角色我們現在討論的都是國家基金錯誤的投資而且虧損連連超過半數再過來未來國家基金如果還要從事投資行為這些投資行為中可以最後演變成官商勾結的溫床柯總召表達的 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6317.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6345.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
行政院開發基金從民國六十幾年成立至今形成一個官商勾結的產物把國家的錢套出去對於國發基金的設計方面未來我們應該要把國發基金廢除就算要存在也不能扮演紓困的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6346.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6371.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
哇 這個柯總召這個親近律例啊已經講得這麼清楚加上立法院的這個預算中心還有監察院的報告最後要提醒大家我們不是立法院一天到晚在成立全院調查委員會我們真的很汗顏的講從十一屆立法院開議到今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6372.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6393.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我們到底成立了幾個立法院的院會調查委員會很抱歉一個都沒有一個都沒有所以一個連結的政府是國會該做的監督的責任如果到今天為止 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6394.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6422.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
一個全院的調查委員會都還沒有成立表示這一屆的立法委員真的在野黨對不起全國人民的託付我想積極的來辦理這個相關的連立法院預算中心都認為弊案重重監察院認為有調查的必要我們應該要即刻的來成立未來就是在協商的過程中如果我們的協商一直一而不絕的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6424.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6431.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
那真的可能以後早上九點就可以開會了齁那萬一再不行就早上六點鐘來開會好不好謝謝沒關係我是想要做一下因為我跟各位黨團幹部報告一下齁讓我先講講話謝謝請把門關閉上一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6447.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6474.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
蔡宜瑜書記長問我,要不要繼續溝通,我說要繼續溝通。所以今天我們才排的繼續溝通這個案子,我想來龍去脈。上次也非常感謝我們國發的高副主委也報告過了,行政部門的意見我們也聽到了。所以今天我們才會有這個繼續來就這個案子來協商。因此我們在上禮拜五我們沒有處理這個案子,就是因為尊重各黨團,希望大家意見再把它呈現出來。 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6475.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6496.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
但是如果一直發言下去的話我想我們不能不做處理不能不做處理那因為你四輪發言其他兩個黨團我要遵循一下剛才主席已經講說會做會議處理謝謝主席才是請尊重主席好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6497.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6500.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我想從頭到尾不是說不能夠去成立什麼調查委員會去調查。民進黨的國會改革版本裡面也有調查權。 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6520.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6537.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
也有只是說你的調查的程序應當把法治完備再來好第二個我講到現在我沒有聽到提案的人對於你要調查的明確的範圍是哪幾家公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6537.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6563.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
我們在說的是一個範圍不明確的調查請問你要調查誰今天我們要成立一個國家發展基金不當投資的調查委員會提案人講不清楚他到底要調查誰如果你要調查如馨如馨現在有訴訟中的案件立法院是不能調查如果你要調查聯合再生現在監察院在調查所以院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6565.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6568.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
今天要成立調查委員會你要調查誰啊講清楚嘛調查誰還是你要調查木可公司呢我可以因為我要收政治獻金法我就漫無目的地要去查政黨的政治獻金嗎所以範圍是誰院長這個問題沒有回答你現在已經不是會議詢問這是第四的十字發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6586.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6603.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
因為我對於議案的主體的詢問啊對於議案的主體的詢問請問提案人你要調查國發基金誰好 謝謝各位黨團幹部顯然我們一直都沒辦法產生共識那我們第二個今天寫上題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6605.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6627.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
這個國家發展基金這個調查委員會我們就依議事規定處理講不清楚要調查誰我們現在進入要第三案講不清楚要調查誰那個院長我可以會議詢問嗎稍微等一下我要提醒各位黨團幹部務必要告訴各位委員這個禮拜五只有上午開會很多委員習慣下午簽到所以他下午還是沒有辦法簽到請各位提醒各位黨團的委員們 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6629.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6640.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
禮拜五上午 院會只有開半天一定要在上午完成簽到這一點很重要我們現在休息之後我們就來進行下面選罷法的討論 好嗎好 休息 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7210.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7223.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
好來各位黨團幹部請坐來來來謝謝謝謝我們再次歡迎內政部劉部長中選會李主委再次歡迎再次歡迎謝謝我們行政部門上一次已經我們先進入第三個今天的討論事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7228.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7241.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
關於公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案,上一次我們已經聽過行政部門意見,各位黨團幹部也交換過意見。請問今天就這個議題,大家有沒有其他寶貴意見要發言?好,請吳斯亞幹事長請發言。謝謝院長。 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7246.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7264.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
我想這個每一次的協商都是一個對話都是一個溝通都是每一個議案要在院會處理前的最後對話的機會所以請所有的黨邊我們承擔的責任就是要在任何議案 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7265.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7281.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
表決前我們盡可能的匯聚共識這就是朝野協商的功能所以王金平院長前幾天說的話很好政治無他耐煩而已呀政治無他耐煩而已呀 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7282.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7296.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
很多話（很多議案的立場（很多條文邏輯不通（很多條文閹割民權（很多條文（恐怕（會有傷及其他憲政機關的權利（ |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7298.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7321.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
或者是很多議案可能過當的衍生了立法院享有的職權這些東西都應當好好來論述我不希望在討論議案的時候大家都覺得不耐煩、不想聽我認為這不是從政者把耳朵打開願意對話開誠布公應當有的態度對於選罷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7327.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7354.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
我想民進黨的立場．不管是聯署加嚴加密．這個都是．設下了門檻．設下了難關．來剝奪人民行使罷免權利．這些我們也都論述很多．社會的撻伐也非常的．強大．不要說是我們說不完的．我們也說得很完的． |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7357.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7386.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
這是說有人就是掩耳盜鈴就是說不聽我要再跟院長也要想要請示一下現在的選罷法此時此刻在協商的是聯署加嚴加密的版本另外在內政委員會今天要排案的是另外一個條文有關於投票門檻我想請求院長今天上午就發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7390.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7402.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
主席、交委他進入會場議事工房大家都司空見慣但是如果要進行議程也應當是使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7404.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7427.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們所有會議室裡頭．的直播．或者是擴音系統．今天發生的是．昭偉他企圖要．帶著議事人員在他旁邊宣讀議程．使用的是國民黨團自己帶進來的麥克風．這就沒有辦法直播出去． |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7428.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7452.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
那事實上,院長不也是從這個上個會期開始就非常的三聲武令所有的黨團不要攜帶麥克風進入任何的議事場域嗎?可是不管是今天的內政委員會或是上上週在財政委員會審查財化法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7453.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7481.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
都有國民黨的委員拿著自己自備的黨團的麥克風或者是委員個別的麥克風進場這個是一定要再制止的這院長您已經制止過很多次但是還繼續發聲那現在回到這個本題所以今天院長處理的是加嚴加密的版本那民進黨的立場就是非常清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7482.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7506.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
沒收人民權利的這樣子的修法我們都沒有辦法來支持而且如果以過去的大法官499號的解釋任何的涉及事項也就是你要在選報法裡頭立法院透過修法對於涉及事項可能做出自肥的 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7508.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7533.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
或者是利益該迴避而沒迴避的都應當由下一屆開始施行。涉及事項絕對不應當是當屆就開始因為我們當選立法委員連任立法委員不管是新任或連任我們的任期從2024到2028我們都是跟人民簽訂了四年的契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7535.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7560.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這四年的契約就包括所有的選舉罷免的遊戲規則這都是這四年間我們跟選民定下的契約所以大法官釋字四九九號曾經對於國民大會要提高他的報酬或待遇然後自己來修正要提高大法官就已經很清楚的說 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7561.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7574.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
任何的涉及事務都要遵守利益迴避的原則所以同理如果要提高罷免的難度保護了現在這一屆的立法委員們這就是應當回到下個屆期才能夠施行的這個原則否則我們又違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7587.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7615.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
所以呢麻煩在場的在野黨的委員們政治無他耐煩而已在場有我們的內政部劉世芳部長中選會李敬勇主委站在主管機關行政部門的立場也都多次的說明行政部門反對選罷法的修法反對增加罷免的難度 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7616.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7627.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
大家都一再的論述只是在野黨的委員蒙起了耳朵不聽就是不聽所以不好意思不要以為我們這麼喜歡來講同樣的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7632.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7646.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
這都是人民的聲音只是在野黨的委員非常遺憾你們拒絕傾聽如此而已所以希望這樣子的議案沒有共識不要進行去用會處理啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7647.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7670.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
這是立法院這一屆要交出來的立法成績單嗎?就是閹割了民權。這是我們這一屆的立委要對社會我們交代得起的嗎?再次發言,抱歉,耐煩而已。如果不耐煩,不要當黨鞭。謝謝吳思瑤幹事長的發言。接下來請林思銘書記長發言。台灣民眾黨團請準備。 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7674.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7689.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
我想這個罷免這一題今天談的是加嚴的版本這個版本我們開了好多次的協商會議其實我們還是要很慎重的跟全國的民眾來說明為什麼要立這個法 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7690.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7713.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
我想我們加嚴的版本我們一再強調這個沒有不是沒收民主這個沒有違反民主就是讓我們身份證的影印本在聯署的程序中要提出並且加註登記日期我想這樣的一個做法其實真正的去體現民主的真諦 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7714.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7728.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
因為我們現在看到這些連署書很多都是冒名連署連死人都可以被冒名連署還有很多偽造的所以這是民主嗎這絕對不是民主 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7729.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7742.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
所以我們認為說提出這樣的一個修正版本甚至於吳秉瑞民進黨的吳秉瑞委員都有相關相同的一個版本啊所以民進黨委員很多人連署怎麼現在你們會認為說這個叫沒收民主讓你們過去呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7746.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7774.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那你們認為過去你們不是沒收民主嗎?所以這個論述我覺得我們不能接受沒有所謂沒收民主這樣的一個假設性的議題存在其實我們現在反而認為民進黨你們到底為什麼怕選拔法這樣的一個修法?你們在怕什麼?你們是準備大罷免嗎?所以你一直在阻擋選拔法加嚴加密的版本通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7775.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7794.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
你們是準備要這樣做嗎?你們是要整個讓我們這個民主社會台灣民主社會在明年度再度造成我們社會的動盪不安嗎?我是真的是這個要告訴民進黨的委員我們要做對的事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7795.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7813.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
我們國家要發展正確的一個路徑如果利用這種大罷免來造成我們國家社會動盪不安造成我們國家公帑的浪費如果沒有的話我真的不曉得你們在怕什麼為什麼不讓因為今天談的是加嚴版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7815.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7839.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
連這個版本你們都不願意讓他通過還一陣子講說我們沒收民主我真的不曉得你們的利潤基礎在哪裡啊過去你們要這樣做現在你們說不行這麼雙標所以真的要鄭重的告訴國人民進黨過去就是支持這樣的版本以上 謝謝謝謝林世民書記長接下來請台灣民眾黨團請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7844.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7863.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
這個議題基本上今天也不是第一次協商了那台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們也多次的跟社會說明了那當然是要傾聽人民的聲音嘛所以我們今天早上也特地開了記者會公佈了台灣民眾黨黨團我們自己做民調的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7864.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7881.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
當然有人要質疑我們的民調我們也虛心接受但我們做這個民調基本上就是希望知道社會大眾怎麼想每一個政黨為自己政黨的立場負責任當然是請聽人民的聲音這一點問題通通都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7884.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7905.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
那第二個事情是說剛剛提到在這個主題的時候又提到延伸去提到說有關於在議場內秩序上面的問題那議場上面秩序的問題我是覺得啦如果要針對這些相關的事情做處理的話那看要不要院長再另外找個時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7907.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7929.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
來做處理因為現在好像是因為我們那個每一個會議室裝的都是喇叭鎖喇叭鎖不用透過暴力的方式就可以把它打開嗎那如果是在這樣的解釋之下似乎也沒有什麼違法的問題嗎那當然我只是反映一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7931.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7950.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
看法而已並不代表這個是真的因為我覺得立法院裡面的規矩到底是什麼可能還是由立法院這邊大家看透過一個什麼樣的民主程序把它說清楚那你總不可能有一些事情永遠都是說那別人做可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7952.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7965.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
別人做不行我做可以這樣子我覺得也不好啦因為現在就變成了是說像我開會的時候門沒開門沒開我就乖乖的在外面等啊等議事人員來開門我再進去啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7968.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7982.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
還是我們現在立法院是有個規矩是你自己有能力開你就把門打開這樣是沒有關係的這個可能也可能要拜託院長幫我們大家裁示一下因為你總要有一個基本的規則嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7983.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
8010.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那這個規則我們要的也就是一個公平的規則嘛那這個公平的規則是會議室的門只要我有這個技能或者是我帶什麼樣的人來可以處理這樣的事情就這樣子處理那還是說有什麼樣其他的指示是不是也可以請院長讓大家知道嘛那要不然的話我每次我很早來我也是都乖乖的等議事人員來開門啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
8012.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
8038.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
那還是說我如果可以的話以後是想開我就自己開就進來了。這個基本的規則是不是也可以請院長來幫我們大家做個採視。謝謝。好,跟各位黨團幹部報告一下今天早上已經責成州務秘書長關於各會議室的門鎖的情況我們要開始要進行如何來處理這一點。第二個就是各委員會的問政還是由那一個黨團能夠來個約束一下黨團成員。 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
8042.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
8070.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
老師聽到不同委員會都不同爆發當然正常的公防論辯大家都是能接受的如果過當的話可能對立法院整體來說並不是一件非常好的事情這點要請各位黨團幹部無論如何要拜託約束一下所有黨團的委員們能夠理性問政那關於這第一輪的發言選拔法上一次不及我會再好 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
8077.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
8080.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
不會,我要請二輪發言,我們那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
8087.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
8105.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
等一下,我跟各位黨團幹部解釋,謝謝王維,你手先放下來,剛剛那個行政部門上次說明,已經說明過了,所以劉部長、李主委還有司法院跟法務部代表非常感謝,參事都已經發言過了,我們今天就,我們讓我們黨團幹部進入二輪的討論,我特別要跟兩位部長報告一下。 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
8107.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
8130.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
要不要再補充意見請劉部長報告院長我比較沒有補充意見我只是有一點不清楚現在院長您所主持的那個選罷法的這個條文修正在進入那個各個黨團協商的時候是哪幾個條文因為在同時間在內政委員會那個徐欣盈召委她也要做選罷法的修正的部分所以我們會 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
8130.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
8146.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
不是很清楚現在講的那些條文是不是要所有的條文一併討論還是說會有做一下不同的篩選就是在會議上面我們會有點那個準備會來不及或是說來不及做比較好的論辯那請那個院長才示一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
8158.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
8187.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
是,但是那個跟院長報告因為今天早上啊我們到內政委員會去的時候是徐欣盈召委的那在我們發的這個開會通知單是寫公職人員選罷法的部分條文修正草案那這個是指上次的那個院長所主持的部分那不涉及到今天在內政委員會所主持的其他的條文的部分那這樣子我們才會比較清楚要怎麼樣回應部長現在就在您手上我們就是沿上一次的會議到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
8188.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
8212.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
就加嚴加密的這一份跟今天早上內政委會開的不是同一個版本請參考李主委請發言謝謝院長、各黨團的幹部中選會就今天朝野協商的這個版本最主要都是針對加嚴的部分包括要付身份證正反的原本要註明這個發證的日期等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
8213.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
8239.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
那這些都是對於罷免權的一個限制那基於罷免權是憲法所保障的公民的參政權我們認為啦就是說必須要非常的謹慎那就現行的制度來講的話在執行上並沒有任何自愛之處也因此呢我們認為說不宜在這個時候來做變更以上再次的報告好謝謝李主委的再一次的說明非常感謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
8250.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
8262.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
關於我們這個這一次我們選拔法這個修正的這個有沒有大家還有沒有其他寶貴的意見要發言我們現在請王宏威請國民黨團二輪發言蔡易瑜幹事長請準備好謝謝謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
8269.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
8271.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
謝謝院長我想今天我們進入的是我們選罷法的修正案我想必須要做一個證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
8284.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
8302.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
他不是一個加嚴加密的版本他是一個落實查核的版本所以我想這個部分呢何先續名那至於就說因為剛才啊就說因為有提到一些我們在議事上面啊就是大家是不是要有一些規範然後呢其實怎麼樣讓議事能夠順利的進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
8307.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8313.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那包含呢就是我剛也聽到這吳思瑤幹事長指責說今天呢在我們的這個內政委員會的時候有自帶麥克風的狀況那我想要說明一下就是因為呢在我們財委會的時候發生了我們這個會議室裡面的麥克風被砸碎砸爛而且甚至還傷及到這吳思瑤這個幹事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8336.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8343.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以我們基於保護我們今天參與的委員大家還是有人身安全的問題所以跟大家報告至於未來要不要做一些規範我想尊重院長最後的才是但是我也特別要提到其實在今天的內政委員會的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8363.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8376.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
是我們的召委、我們的主席根本沒有辦法坐上主席台這已經不是第一次發生了所以如果我們今天談到相關的議事規則、議事程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8379.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8406.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
不讓主席坐上主席臺連宣告開會都不准請問一下到底哪一個比較嚴重所以如果我們今天未來要對我們立法院裡面的議事做一些規範希望各黨團能遵守我想請問自帶麥克風根本不准主席坐上主席臺來宣布開會到底是哪一個比較嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8408.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
8413.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
那更不要說其實今天也發生了又是類似的案例就是今天我知道啦其實民進黨團呢為了要杯葛議事的進行也很辛苦聽說呢四點半那麼就開始在做整個的假動 總動員 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
8428.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
8432.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
那我覺得其實過去我們國民黨團也有這樣在我們正式開會之前我們也做假動但是國民黨團會遵守一個最基本最基本的一個原則我們會等到議事人員開門我們會在外面在等到議事人員開門我們還沒有不管他喇叭鎖什麼鎖我們是一個尊重嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
8456.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
8465.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
哪裡有說半夜去開門的然後或者是說喇叭鎖很容易就去開門我也不知道也許這個民進黨團的成員都身懷絕技很會開鎖是不是習慣開鎖這個是我們比較不習慣的事情啊因為即便是喇叭鎖有時候我們覺得這就是一個這個立法院我們的一個最基本我們應該遵守的嘛所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
8486.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
8502.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
如果作賊喊作賊然後強盜要報警那到底怎麼會變成惡人先告狀呢我不理解但是呢既然告狀的話那麼剛才院長也有才事啊秘書長會未來針對喇叭鎖的部分我想不只喇叭鎖因為有的還被破壞 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
8507.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
8507.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
中文字幕 李慧琼 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
8524.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
8528.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
所以就是有關於我們這些相關的我們的紀律的問題如果大家要一起來討論的話那就一起來討論啊所以我覺得這是必須要跟大家來報告的那另外就是我還是講到就是說有關於我們選罷法的部分那我們其實來經過協商大家各抒己見但是請保持一定的尊重啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
8555.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
8559.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
其實剛才我們那個黃總召也有提到就是說他們今天早上也召開了記者會他們也公佈了他們的報告我講的我們不是民意代表嗎民意代表嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8569.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8577.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
如果包含在之前這個羅志強委員他所主持的民調或者是這個今天民眾黨所主持的民調在民意的反應上對於罷免相關的規定大家確實覺得有做調整跟有做檢討的 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8589.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8603.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
必要那麼我們今天去反映民意不代表我們去剝奪什麼公民權利人民的權利所以我們還是尊重民意終究我們是民意代表而不是黨意代表以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8604.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8632.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
謝謝王宏威首席副市長發言在參與蘇議長發言之前我想針對吳世耀委員跟黃國昌委員兩位所提的我這邊做一次宣告我們一個組一個次我們來從組到次來跟大家來宣布一下一、有關各委員會會議室的次序再一次要拜託各黨團幹部能夠約束黨團委員成員能夠理性問政維持會議次序這是組次就是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8633.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8646.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
我們今天又發生這個事情已經上次財委會所發生的這些事情我們要再次宣告針對麥克風立法院議場安全維護及管理要點第七點規定會議的時候委員不得攜帶麥克風這是針對院會的議場 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8650.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8671.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
不過對於委員會會議室的次序我們會尊重各委員會的召委的處理如果大家能夠秉持理性的問證沒有破壞麥克風也沒有佔據主席他的行為那一切我們就委託召委來裁示使用幕僚單位所提供的麥克風這一點我再重申一遍一個組一個次 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8673.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8698.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
那在院會的時候如果需要跟每個委員會再來宣布的時候我會試機來提出那接下來請蔡益渝蘇議長請發言我想剛剛院長只宣告院會不能用麥克風但是委員會的麥克風狀況是更嚴重的這個第一個要講然後第二個我想我們應該還原整個立法院朝野的工坊在二零 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8701.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8723.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
2019年9月5月9號當時立法院內政委員會在排審公投法那個公投法的修正草案呢就是說他為了讓公投連署不必附上國民身份證的影本這是當時國民黨的主張就是在公投連署的時候不要附上身份證影本那在國民黨呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8725.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8738.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
黨團繼我直接念這個新聞出來繼昨日暫已議事癱瘓一天後今日清晨五點姚昌進入會議室這個姚昌的人應該是我們副院長江啟臣副院長姚昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8739.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8763.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
姚昌進入會議室．再度成功占領主席臺這是在清晨五點那我們副院長也在臉書PO出照片他說捍衛民權不能懶公投修法反獨裁所以他是在當時認為附上身分證影本就是沒有捍衛民權就是公投修法就是造成了會獨裁的一個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8764.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8783.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以在當時江啟臣副院長事實上他們就是在五點利用搖窗的方式佔領主席台那民進黨議員在上午七時陸續進入會議室這在二零一九年的狀況那在二零一五年勒二零一五年的時候一月五號勒當時齁這一個這個是在議場的狀況下午二十 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8789.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8810.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
五十二分立法院長蘇嘉全宣布散會後那國民黨立委他跟議場內的時代力量委員當時應該是時代力量的主席徐永敏號召那黃國昌委員事實上在當時也有參與他們五人持螺絲起子、保溫杯破壞議場門栓以及防破玻璃後以大鎖鐵鍊將門鎖鎖上形同志求 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8819.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8822.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
所以我現在在說的就是說這個都是議事工房的歷史嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8824.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8831.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
就是說會有這個議事攻防那主要這個議事攻防的目的是什麼在當年國民黨他在做這樣議事攻防他在五點搖窗進入議場也是進到議場裡面他就是為了不要讓公投法修二在當年時代力量也有他們對於勞基法的一些訴求所以他們也是希望他們去佔領了議場都會有這樣的攻防今天民進黨我們之所以要在內政委員會我們提早我們四點半 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8852.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8857.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
我們就來到這裡讓我們進到了裡面我們也是避免這個選辦法被修二那我想要跟院長反映的就是說事實上我們現在陷入一個很矛盾的一個狀況因為我們在這個時候朝野協商正在主持我們連署加嚴我們連署要附上身份證的影本這個我們這個認為這個弊病很多這個不用再贅述了啦齁但是我們同時在內政委員會勒卻有在處理另外一案我們看到比較嚴重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8881.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8906.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
大概是那一個罷免的同意票要大於當選的票數那個無疑是讓未來罷免要成功的機會變得非常的困難所以我們認為這兩個效果基本上都會都一樣會造成剝奪人民的一個罷免權但是欸現在有一個重點喔如果我們今天院長你沒有要把這案你今天在財事繼續討論的話我們有可能禮拜五就要先處理這一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8910.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8926.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
有可能禮拜五這一案要進入二讀三讀但是在內政委員會卻還有一案選罷法那一樣是會造成剝奪人民的罷免權所以是基本上我覺得既然國民黨都要排案然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8926.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8939.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
委員會在排現在朝野協商也有一個選罷法那我們為什麼不要在整個程序完備最後一起審理的時候我們再來處理選罷法我們再來院長你再來召開協商說因為現在有不同的版本的疊加我要跟院長講的就是說基本上用身份證會造成罷免提案的困難你用這個當選的得票數這個一樣會造成困難疊加起來又變更困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8955.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8968.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
所以我認為這兩個不能把它拆開處理我不知道這個拆開處理勒是國民黨還是民眾黨的想法還是怎樣但是我們早上也有看到像蔓玉珍委員她有舉著牌子嘛她說贊成反對反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
8973.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
8976.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
反對門檻加高嘛阿如果他要反對門檻加高的話是不是未來我覺得這個要合併討論而不是我們現在先討論一項然後這一項可能在禮拜五的時候就被表決然後這一案就結束了那未來又跑出一個門檻加高 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
8990.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9003.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
這兩個把它拆開處理我認為是不公平的,對人民不公平因為他必須要一併處理就是說到底怎麼做是一個合理的罷免制度那這個罷免制度讓人民還是有辦法行使罷免權同時 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9005.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9010.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
這個罷免制度也不會造成了所謂濫刑罷免就是說民進黨未來會不會說有去發動罷免誰我覺得這些事情都是政黨政治政黨說我們去罷免誰那後來造成了很多民怨造成大家覺得勞民傷財民進黨就要承擔這個責任政治責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9026.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
9029.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
但是你不能說這個制度嚴格到人民還沒有行使的時候你就跟他說不可以我把門檻加高你那裡根本沒辦法成案根本沒有辦法行使罷免權好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
9041.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
9066.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
那個謝謝蔡宇書記長的發言張宏祿委員跟徐宇貞委員我知道你們舉手要發言稍待一下蔡宇宇委員民眾黨團做了二次發言等一下請國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨也做二次發言但是在中間我卡一段話剛剛已經宣告開會的理性問政之外還有一個非常重要的大家試想一下昨天我們立法院邀請行政院長來報告追加預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9068.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9092.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
大家想想看立法院現場的畫面全場到最後沒有委員在我們立法院請行政院長來專案報告大家代表很慎重行政院長也帶了財政部長也帶了主計長來很正規來報告然後我們一個委員都沒有只有質詢的委員所以我要再一次拜託黨團幹部你們回去一定要派出輪值委員實在是太難看了我實在不想講 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9094.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
9120.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
搞到最後一個陳永康委員一個王振旭委員我還特別去謝謝他們謝謝你們兩位老人家歸貨二仙你們千萬不能離開啊這個畫面能看嗎好不好所以拜託拜託尤其在審查法條要三讀二讀二讀三讀的時候一個委員都沒有每一次我實在是不好意思講就是王振旭老人家坐那裡我真的是太感謝他了不然的話就空成記啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
9122.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
9146.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
你們都有不分區的委員你去其他輪值嘛這個一樣政黨比例二二一嘛這一定要有硬性規定嗎?真的不好看啊好不好拜託好現在接下來請台灣民眾黨團跟國民黨二輪發言請請兩位等一下好請我們再選辦法你不要走心了請台灣民眾黨我在看著你啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
9151.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
9153.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
謝謝院長 謝謝院長 謝謝大家對於國民黨要提修正的那個提高罷免門檻我們本黨也多次 多次 很多次我們的主席在的時候已經有這講了就是明確表態不支持商修罷免門檻我今天我們也開了記者會我也到現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
9176.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
9177.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以要跟你們說明我們反對所以呢本黨認為就是公職人員的選罷法連署就是泛濫經常淪為就是抄莊角還有黨員名當抄大賽 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
9191.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
9192.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
所以呢,罷免成為政黨的仇恨動員的工具的狀況啦。就是因嚴肅面對,我們希望,就是要連署,要嚴慎,罷免是淘汰不適當的官員,對不對? |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
9208.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
9210.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
現在捲成就是政黨動員的工具所以呢媒體提到就是罷免的時代顯示目前台灣的環境淪為就是你不支持不喜歡這個議案我就罷免你 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
9225.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
9227.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
這樣子的仇恨就是每個人都會被都有這個機會被罷免所以我們為什麼要說上次我們柯總召有講說我們這個是憲法保護我們的公民權 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
9239.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
9242.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
所以我也講得很清楚公民權就是我們要選舉的權利我們罷免的權利同樣的很重要所以都要身份證這樣才是對選舉的人也公平嘛齁好不容易選上你一票一票你要對這個人的這個票要 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
9259.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
9263.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
支持你的人也要負責任啊對不對所以我們希望就不要為了這件事情今天一晚一黑晚黑今天是今天的事情不要遲到早上的我們今天是這個案我們支持我們支持就是說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
9278.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
9303.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
罷免聯署要眨眼這個部分我們支持提高是早上的事情我們不支持我們講得很清楚了拜託民進黨不要怕說表決我們是不是要怎麼樣去支持國民黨我們從我們主席在的時候也是這樣子的表態到現在百分之百沒有變好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
9305.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
9314.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
謝謝麥議政委員發言接下來請國民黨團發言然後張宏祿跟徐宇政委員兩位委員請準備好請國民黨團不發言好謝謝我們請國民黨團不是國民黨團請二次發言二次發言請 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
9329.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
9331.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我要再次說一次就是其實我們不管是在今天我們所協調的在有關於去把何時能夠去這個落實查核的版本或者是現在在排進內政委員會的然後我們希望能夠追求票票等值不要成為少數去罷免多數的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
9356.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
9382.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
其實我們都是橫諸現在民意的一個規項。剛才比如說我們蔡議員委員他也提到比如過去當時在公投法的時候身份證引本他說當時國民黨有反對這是基本的事實我不會去做反駁但是我們也曾經提過就是有關於在選罷法的修正理念 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
9383.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
9386.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
在之前 比如說像包涵、吳秉瑞還有蔡易瑜、蓋世長他們共同提案的版本共同提案的版本事實上應該是在四月的時候他們提案但後來他們在測案了我們也予以尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
9402.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
9418.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
對,你的部分,你是有提案啊,就是這,沒有什麼,但是有那個,就是那個,對,沒有錯啊,但是你有沒有版本,有嘛,我們不要去爭議,我們只要這種客觀的事實,所以也就是說,即便是委員自己提案, |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
9419.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
9422.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
在短短不到從四月到現在了不起半年嘛那事項測案的時間更早他可能都很著我不知道是你的來自於選民的壓力或者來自於政黨的壓力我都尊重你也有測案嘛所以呢也就是說不管是委員的個人或者是政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
9440.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
9458.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
對於選罷．對於選罷法的修正．或者對於罷免制度的調整．我們本來就是．隨現在的民意．大家的想法我們而做調整．尤其在這一次．尤其在這一次基隆市長．也就是謝國良市長罷免之後．我們確實． |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
9461.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
9467.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
受到很多的民眾的反應覺得這樣子的一個動不動就罷免一個市長他上任一年多沒有任何的什麼錯誤的一個重大的錯誤那只是因為一個什麼東岸商場我們講了好幾百遍了東岸商場在法律面 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
9482.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
9484.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
基隆市政府完全站得住腳那從此就因為東岸商場的一個處理就開始發動整個的罷免的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
9492.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
9495.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那麼你也可以想到這樣的罷免對於一個市長來說他其實要分審而沒有辦法專注在市政所以在謝國良市長罷免之後我們真的確實接到很多很多的民眾的反應需要這樣勞民傷財嗎需要這樣製造社會的對立嗎需要這樣去撕裂社會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
9517.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
9528.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
罷免需要這麼腐爛嗎?所以我剛才也特別講我們現在看到的最近的有關於針對罷免的民意調查比如說啦剛才麥玉珍委員特別提到就是有關於我們在現在排入內政委員會的版本那麼其實民眾黨已經不止一次的 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
9542.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
9544.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
對外宣布說他們並不支持這個案子我想各政黨我們尊重可是我們今天比如說也看到民眾黨他們所提出來的他們的這個民調我想今天他花錢做民調他犯不著幫你國民黨做這個民調吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
9559.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
9561.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
所以就是說：比如說我們落實查核版本：在這個那個版本裏面：他們：對不起我有點忘記了：他們有60：超過60%的民眾：認為是同意的：但是即使在民眾黨不同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
9576.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
9586.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
不同意就是在最後的罷免票你要比他的當選票多一張起碼多一張這個民眾黨不同意但是他們做出來的民調的結果也有超過五成的人是支持的我想我剛才知道今天他們開了記者會我們之前也沒有拜託民眾黨幫我們做一個這個民調來支持我們一下我們完全不知道他剛才不講我們完全不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
9603.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
9619.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
所以也就是說我們現在最近看到的民調的版本至少我們看到確實民眾對於無止無盡或者莫名其妙或者是這樣子氾濫的罷免感受到這樣其實已經厭煩了其實也認為不應該過於氾濫所以我們提出這樣子的相關修法那我要特別講到的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
9631.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
9647.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
委員有提案權政黨也有提案權我沒有辦法接受的剛才比如說我們民進黨的幹部說今天為什麼要霸佔主席台呢因為我們怕修惡所以你覺得這個法不應該修的時候你就合理化你去強佔主席台嗎可以這樣子嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
9660.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
9665.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
如果今天任何一個政黨都因為我覺得你這樣的說法不對、不好我根本不給你開會黃論、討論不是說沒有討論沒有民主嗎?不是說要討論嗎?委員中心之啊委員會要討論啊其實包含我們今天這個直接進步二度然後我們現在拿來大家在協商的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
9690.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
9712.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
也是兩次在內政委員會開會的時候民進黨團強佔主席台啊兩次都是這樣子啊我們都是要來排討論啊不給討論不給開會所以我完全沒有辦法接受因為我們怕羞辱怕羞辱是你們說的啊民意不是這樣子講啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
9713.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
9730.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
怎麼樣?你們大於民意嗎?然後就不給開會還可以這樣子理直氣壯然後這樣講覺得合理化這樣子罷免主席台的行為我覺得岐岐以為不可啊所以在這邊還是我覺得我們今天經過我們各政黨大家各抒己見 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
9735.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
9749.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
然後真的我們應該回歸到意識該怎麼處理就怎麼處理以上謝謝接下來張宏祿委員發言徐議政委員請準備拜託掌握一下時間謝謝好謝謝謝謝院長其實剛剛大家一直在講2019年的時候副院長的那個事件其實那時候我就是內政委員會的召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
9759.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
9782.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
那我一直覺得我對這個選罷法要提高加嚴加密或者是這個同意的這個票數要多我覺得其實都可以討論但我覺得就是都沒有理性的去討論我覺得這才是最重要的那時候2019的時候後來 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
9785.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
9795.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
我也認為說也不用強去這個為什麼呢?院長你用身份證影印本其實是最落伍的方式了 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
9796.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
9812.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
因為有個資外洩有什麼的以台灣我們為了要達到這個目的我們其實有其他的方法可以來做啊並不一定是要身份證影印本啊比如說有的是提出用身份證的發證日期對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
9815.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
9844.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
或者有很多的我跟你講你去看銀行他為了審查你的資料他有很多種方法也不用你提供身份證的影印本我們銀行都可以做到這邊我們在一個立法為什麼要用最落伍的方式我覺得這點是要討論的不要這個立法出來被人家笑這也是立法院立法的品質所以我那時候我覺得說這個是真的需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
9844.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
9870.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
要討論同樣的今天我也是剛好也是內政的召委我也認為這個東西不是不可以討論但我其實我反對用這種最落伍的方式我們去看銀行去看什麼其實有很多種方式我們都可以去討論的那另外這一個案子跟今天在內政委員會這個後來沒有審的案子其實都一樣是選罷法 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
9872.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
9890.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
那其實兩個是有相關聯的那我個人也覺得啦這個時間還來得及啦也沒急迫到這樣啦我覺得都可以兩個可以合在一起並在一起好好去討論這是我今天要跟院長您報告的我覺得應該是要這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
9893.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
9915.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我們今天草野協商開會到現在最斯文的發言就是我們張宏祿委員謝謝我們請徐宇辰委員謝謝主席我應該會是更斯文的發言我想剛剛那個這次我會提出這個就是也要繳交身份證影本的這個連署的部分主要就是因為其實現在連署的這些錯假連署然後超明冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
9916.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
9933.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
死亡連署的這個狀況非常的嚴重我來念一段文字給大家聽就是罷免案出現上千份的死亡連署顯見出現有心人士持大量個人資料假冒提議連署且隱含的假冒份數恐為死亡連署的數倍以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
9934.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
9954.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
雖然經互證系統查對﹐可以刪除亡者聯署的畸形聯署書﹐但卻無法比對查核未死亡的冒名聯署的狀況。這段話我非常的認同那這段文字是吳秉瑞委員跟蔡義偉委員他們共提的一個案子上面的一個提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
9955.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
9970.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那當然他這個提案是指說要求罷免聯署人須填寫身份證的換發日期那為什麼有這樣這個提案雖然他現在測案他在四月三號提案現在測案這最重要不就是覺得死亡聯署的問題非常的嚴重所以才提出這樣的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
9971.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
9991.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
還有包括一些在上一屆有一些委員就是針對公投法他們也認為公投法這樣這個錯假聯署、操民社聯署的狀況非常的嚴重所以也提出了包括這個蘇巧惠跟王美惠委員提出這個公投法的修正草案他們也是要求聯署人要附國民身份證的正反面影本 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
9992.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
9999.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
當時吳斯堯委員也有聯署那所以說我認為以這樣子一個狀況你說剛剛這個張璐委員說這個是一個落伍的做法可是實際上民進黨的委員也都同意那而且我們最近就有一個這樣做聯署就是在去年的這個總統選舉的時候有獨立參選人郭台銘他們需要聯署這個附身份證影本 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10016.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10020.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
當時大概有超過百萬的聯署當時民進黨怎麼沒有講這是落伍的做法為什麼還是要做這樣的聯署而且這百萬的聯署當時也沒有人提到說有資安的問題當時中選會內政部都沒有提出有資安的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10034.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10052.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
所以我認為目前的這個剛剛所提到的這些其實都不是我們的目的是剛剛這個中選會李主委有講到選舉罷免是重要的公民權所以一定要很嚴謹所以我們的目的是希望能夠嚴謹那所以我的這個提案是希望能夠附上身份證的影本謝謝許議長委員發言那顯然 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10055.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
10070.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
這個今天各三個黨團所討論沒有辦法達成共識那我們再次謝謝內政部劉部長、中選會的李竺偉還有司法院法務部列席的代表,非常感謝大家那沒有共識,我們剩下就依議事規則來處理,好不好現在蔡偉學長,我們就散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
10076.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
10089.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
不是不是,這個是要做成議事記錄的發言好嗎?你們不要就是等到了院長說可以議事程序處理就是可以表決了,然後大家就保護好看看,大家就要走。這樣協商我們就是過水而已啊。那院長請問一下,那現在鬧雙胞的選罷法怎麼分割處理呢?鬧雙胞的選罷法怎麼分割處理嗎?怎麼分割處理呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
10105.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
10121.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
所以院長我覺得這樣子的協商不能把選辦法拆開啦怎麼怎麼是院長我再一次覺得你們都是過水而已耶都是過水而已耶院長協商不可以這樣只是過水而已耶你們連署是一個門檻罷免也是一個門檻罷免的門檻那是叠加應該要一起討論沒有共識就是要繼續討論啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
10135.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
10136.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
這都你們劇本寫好了嗎? |
| IVOD_ID |
16291 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16291 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024112044 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-20T14:29:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-20T17:20:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |