| IVOD_ID |
16278 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16278 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-18T08:30:33+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-18T12:31:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:00:27 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2df0f9f44450827e576e917ab2baf49428edb79b8bfb08e7991c7ea0fd80cdc1e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告「AI技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢。） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:33 - 12:31:00 |
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629.245 |
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根據該圖表可以觀察到對川普政府應對中國的目的、方法與手段的多層次分析其分為宏觀層次的國家戰略與微觀層次的具體行動 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
631.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
635.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
美國優勢,以經濟與技術主導地位,或圖表強調美國意圖脫經濟手段如關稅與制裁與科技主導。 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
656.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
663.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
2.安全與國防,圖中顯示國外體制與軍事作為十重點,川普政府的戰略目標包括軍事威懾作為核心,抵制中國在印太地區的軍事擴張。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
681.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
702.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
全球規則與秩序的重塑,圖表的底層和機制,美國企業建立自身為主的多邊機制,削弱中國對現行國際組織違反的影響力,特別在經濟和技術領域,安防方法內外動作擁有並且強弱。內外遮蟲,川普採用內部優先政策,減稅,強化國內基建,吸引資本回流,外部則透過關稅戰外交施壓, |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
716.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
716.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
783.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
785.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
872.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
873.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
902.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
906.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
上次報告的時候覺得這樣,但這次如果我回裡面的時候,你會被搞砸嗎?就我經驗的IPUB啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
953.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
960.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
966.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
977.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1012.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1013.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1105.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1108.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
他知道 有 我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1143.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1156.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1169.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1170.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1188.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1194.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1220.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1239.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1247.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1249.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
本期視頻到此結束 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1285.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1285.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
本集完 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1325.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
1326.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
1363.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
1370.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
1393.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
1393.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
1871.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
1874.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
報告委員會出席委員9人以足法定人數開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
1884.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
1909.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議一事錄時間中華民國113年11月14日星期四上午9時1分至10時50分地點紅樓301會議室出席委員黃仁等9人、列席委員賴士寶等13人請教委員林益君、林楚英、列席人員國家安全局局長蔡明彥及所屬人員、行政院主計總處專門委員邱碧珠 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
1911.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
1928.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主席王昭吉委員定語。報告事項,宣讀上次會議議事錄,決定確定。討論事項,審查114年度中央政府總預算案,關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分僅詢答。國家安全局局長蔡明彥報告,委員盧美琳等9人質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
1929.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
1957.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
均由國家安全局局長蔡明彥及特勤中心理副指揮官等即席答覆決議一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢為其答覆或要求提供資資訊請國家安全局於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並附資本會委員令指定期限則從其所定三委員林益君、陳永康及林楚英等三人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報四本案令則其繼續審查宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
1963.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
1989.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
請問在場委員對上次會議的議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處?議事錄確定,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告．AI技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應．並備質詢。宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
1994.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
1997.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們介紹在場的委員陳永康委員羅美玲委員介紹與會官員國家安全局局長蔡明彥副局長張元斌數位發展部政務次長林怡進 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2023.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2025.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
數位策略司司長蔡壽權、資通安全署組長趙游進、數位產業組組長林青青、國家資通安全研究院主任侯游民、法務部調查局副局長吳富梅、 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2051.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2072.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
支托安全處處長張游仁、國內安全調查處副處長張傳志、內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長林信雄、科技犯罪防治中心主任林建榮、 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2075.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2082.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
國家科學及技術委員會前瞻及應用科技處處長蔡妙慈本日會議邀請國安局、數位發展部、調查局、警政署及國科會報告．AI技術在資安、深偽）影片及錯假訊息的影響評估及因應．並備質詢首先我們請國安局蔡局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2118.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2139.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
主席、主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生、大家早。感謝大院安排本局進行AI技術在資安、深偽影片以及錯假訊息的影響評估跟因應專題報告。本局僅以重禮國家安全情報工作立場提出意見跟說明如下。第一部分是有關於威脅評估。近年來AI人工智慧得益於高速電腦的發展。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2141.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2164.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
算力快速的精進數據資料的儲存以及新接晶片的製成相關的發展快速的促成了深層式AI聯網車、遠距監控以及無人載具等領域的廣泛的運用導致各國也開始制定相對應的法規來進行監管來爭奪數位主權的主導地位然而依附在AI新興威脅出現各種新式的問題怎麼樣來防範這些威脅遠比因應傳統威脅來得更具挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2171.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2196.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
三點重要的威脅供各位委員先進參考一、AI普及降低運用的門檻AI的運用原來需要很多自籌的技術跟算力等等的資源但是隨著Google、OpenAI等跨國企業商業模式越來越成熟以及多項開源程式公開來示眾那大幅的降低了技術跟資金的成本使得AI的運用更加的普及也給予有心人士可乘之機 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2197.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2217.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
二、AI的技術武器化衍生新興的挑戰。關於一、擴增資安威脅的風險．AI可以用來處理自動化的分析．並且針對網路防禦的弱點來進行一些攻擊．同時可以來找出軟硬體設備的各種的漏洞．並且生成變種的病毒．來強化逆中躲避必要的偵測 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2218.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2230.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
另外,AI也可以來優化分散式阻斷服務的攻擊的強度和模式,並且有效地來調控僵屍網路,使得網路的攻擊變得更具有自動化、隱匿化和隨機化的特色。 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2232.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2250.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
產制偽製證訊誤導視聽．AI透由簡易的編輯．重新利用圖像．以及編造特定人士的影音等等的方式．可以來製造難以辨識的證訊．並且投放到公開網路的平臺．進而來誤導民眾的視聽．同時也可以來消耗政府應處跟查查的能量 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2252.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2271.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
快速傳播錯假的訊息AI工具可以依照腳本來杜撰錯假的訊息並且結合到假帳號以及機器人來使得傳散的速度具有超高速跟無差別等等的特性那近期美國國家情報總監的辦公室已經對外來公開示警 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2272.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2282.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
認為外國的敵對勢力正在利用AI的技術在大選期間來散佈相關的錯假訊息企圖來影響選舉的公平性跟正當性同時來擴大社會大眾對於選舉結果的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2286.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2308.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
3.缺乏資安意識,造成資料外洩的風險。去年的4月,外國半導體公司的員工曾經將內部機敏的程式碼上傳到深層式AI的工具平台,但是這樣的一個動作卻導致了他們內部研發的機密資料外洩,因為這些資料一旦上傳到AI的工具平台就沒有辦法來刪除,所以使用商規的AI工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2309.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2329.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
很有可能因為缺乏相關的警覺意識造生資料外洩的一個風險第二部分是有關於影響跟應處這也是分為有四大點來跟各位委員做個報告一、講說中共往害跟錯假訊息的活動歐美等國已經陸續的公開示警指出中共運用AI的技術、稅刑、害侵 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2330.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2343.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
更洩露．本局已透過國際友盟的合作．針對中共網攻的手法．攻擊了組織、錯假訊息傳散的樣態等等．來加強分享相關的請記之．以便來強化數位聯防以及錯假訊息．跨國應處的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2346.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2369.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
2、運用公司協力反制AI的威脅．中共已藉軍民融合加強AI網路作戰的能量．試機來進行網害．投放錯假訊息以及破壞關鍵基礎設施．本局會持續地透由公司協力的模式．將AI的技術結合到資安防護的機制．來強化網害增防的技術．同時也會來提升影音跟影片人物．偽辨識的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2370.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2389.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
另外本局也會採取反制AI的模式即時來發掘未知妄害的威脅同時來厚植錯假訊息防制的效能以便來協助政府強化關鍵基礎設施的韌性。統合國安團隊預應AI的侵擾為了因應中共運用AI技術對我洗腦 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2390.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2408.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
本局已經統合國安團隊來預應,透過情報會議及教育訓練來強化情搜統合及分享的機制,另外也會將影響國安、涉案等妄害威脅預警情資及錯假訊息及時通報權責單位來做必要應處及偵測的阻擋,以便來有效防堵威脅的噪聲。 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2409.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2426.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
是配合政府建立AI監管的法尊由於AI衍生安全威脅越來越重大世界各國都定有監管、審查、評估跟認證的相關法令規範我國全職機關目前也正在研擬人工智慧基本法的草案本局會適時的來掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2426.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2443.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
收言、威脅的樣態、送餐也來協助訂定符合保障我們國人權益以及國家安全的法規另外本局已經在去年訂定使用深層式人工智慧作業的規定以便確保本局內部資訊作業的安全第三大部分也是最後一部分結語 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2444.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2465.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
近年來AI技術快速的發展對資安跟錯假訊息的防治構成非常嚴峻的挑戰本局除了透過國際合作交流AI的情收也會透過多元的模式來加強AI資源情報作業能力以便及時掌搜相關的威脅情資有效來防範潛在的國安威脅以上的報告進行大院各位委員先進不定指導謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2473.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2475.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
接著我們請速發部林政務次長進行報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2498.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2511.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
主席．各位委員．今天應邀列席貴委員會．數發部針對委員所提AI技術在資安、深偽．Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應．提出報告．並備質詢．盡情指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2514.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2542.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
AI技術的發展正在改變我們的生活和工作方式隨著技術的持續進步未來將會出現更多創新應用同時也需要關注倫理和數位影響數法部作為資通安全與數位經濟相關產業的主管機關對於AI技術在資安、深偽（影片及錯假訊息之影響持續關注並延期評估以立即早防護與因應僅就目前評估該況說明如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2544.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2569.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
國外知名資安公司CloudStrike近期研究指出．當前AI驅動的網路攻擊已經發展出多種形態．例如AI用於社交工程攻擊．可自動辨識最佳攻擊的目標．產生並建立可信的假身份資訊．開發合理的攻擊場景．並生成個人化訊息及多媒體內容．以獲取敏感資料、系統存取權限和資金轉賬．請參閱附錄一 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2573.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2601.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
根據微軟與OpenAI的最近研究觀察目前全球主要的駭客組織與國家網軍已將AI、LM技術整合為提升工作效率的輔助工具請參見附錄二這些AI技術會使得駭客得以精準的擴大攻擊表面及找到正確的攻擊入口同時加速並提高攻擊鏈整體的成功機率在錯假訊息方面根據Sentinel10 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2603.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2626.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
Sentenance One與EU的觀察．AI與深度偽造．已經成為發起輿論戰的重要工具．例如運用深度偽造技術．建立令人信以為真的照片、影像．在透過AI辨識目標群體．並根據目標所處的同溫層．精準打造與投放目標所關注的議題．來左右輿論的風向． |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2627.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2648.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
達成否定政府信任的戰略目的這些AI技術的組合讓網軍可以大量建立多樣態的錯假內容提高訊息內容的複雜度與抗辨識能力迴避利用自然語言處理技術的辨識工具同時也提高了辨識的人力耗費在因應作為方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2650.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2674.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我們因應AI造成的資安威脅,資安院主要採取了兩大面向。一,在可能的攻擊途徑上建立多重柵欄。我們導入零信任架構的防禦機制,在每個可能的入侵路徑上,建立許多永不信任而且持續驗證的柵欄,讓AI就算能快速地找到正確的入口、途徑、攻擊鏈,也會到處碰壁而走不進去。 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2675.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2687.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
二、我們會以AI指導環視AI之聲,駭客利用AI加量與加速的攻擊,防守方也應採用AI來提高識別因應與阻擋數量與速度,以AI驅動 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2693.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2707.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
驅動目擊資料的分析與關聯技術整合AI對網路設備與服務的日誌資料的快速多維度分析能量強化原有以專家為主的資安事件分析能力有效預測攻擊點與動態防禦規則部署達成分析與解決方案一條龍產出的目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2713.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2725.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
另一方面,在面對利用錯假訊息的進行輿論戰方面,我們除了利用NLP技術之外,資安院目前也正結合不同的技術與發展多模態的辨識機制, |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2727.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2749.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
首先在AI錯假訊息的辨識技術上面這個技術結合自然語言處理就是所謂的NLP、大數據分析、人工智慧和機器學習等前瞻科技將文本投影制與預向量空間進行比對快速識別和分析潛在的錯假訊息進一步完成訊息的傳播鏈與源頭追蹤 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2754.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2772.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
在AI深度偽造辨識技術方面,我們透過整合多種深偽偵測的方法,這樣的技術可以用於偵測深偽圖像、影片和聲音,並且可以透過特徵細節變化如臉部變造和邊緣變造、快速辨識多媒體的真偽,以達成多模態的偵測目標。 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2774.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2795.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
除了透過技術手段外,最重要而且最有效的是人員培訓。我們需要持續提升人民對AI相關威脅的認識,建立積極的安全意識文化,強化人民識讀能力,如同零信任機制,保持對任何訊息的警覺性。上述相關建議,皆已納入本部各項資安推動工作中,持續進行。 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2797.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2819.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
總結來說AI等新興技術的衝擊和挑戰是多方面的涉及經濟、社會、倫理還有安全等領域我們應該針對這些挑戰我們的政府、企業還個人應該共同努力制定有效的策略和正確以確保技術的健康發展和社會的可持續進步以上報告謝謝其他機關報告請參閱書面資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2834.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2852.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理這裡做一個宣告國安局蔡局長因為另有要工從10點40開始請假之後由張元斌副局長代理備詢現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2868.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2874.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
謝謝主席 有請速發部林正次請林正次委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2881.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2908.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這次好,這次有關於這個10月底10月底微軟它有提出了一份2024數位防疫報告裡面有提出來國家級的網路攻擊已經開始結合網路犯罪工具以及生成式的AI技術導致全球的資安危險是進一步來做升高那北京引用了這個報告的這個圖表我們可以看到在國家級網路的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2909.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2911.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這份報告也列出了網路攻擊的十大目標產業其中第一名就是我國的核心戰略產業之一的IT產業 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2932.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
2959.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那關於這個關鍵基礎設施的政府部門比如說像運輸業、金融業、資訊科技產業還有金融業等等的都是位列其中那一旦這些設施遭到攻擊的時候對社會穩定跟經濟的秩序就會帶來很直接而且巨大的衝擊那本席想請教的就是說在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
2962.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
2978.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
在這個生成這個AI生成式的這個AI現在被廣泛地用在這種這個資安威脅當中那我們除了這個自動生成惡意程式之外因為我看到了各部會的報告裡面有特別有提到那像這個它可以自動生成 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
2979.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
2991.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
的這個程式之外能夠協助計劃跟管理復雜的這個攻擊流程像過去耗時的這個攻擊手段可以更快更頻繁的來做執行所以我有很詳細看了我們速發部的這個提交的這個報告裡面我們有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
2995.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3011.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
那我們目前是將這個零信任架構的這個防疫機制呢要導入到各行政機關就是要對這一個資安的防疫來做一些防護的這個措施那當然我們從這個表裡面可以看到初期當然是針對這個資安責任A級機關為優先並依序呢要導入這個身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3016.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3021.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
見別機制設備見別機制跟信任推斷機制可是我在查閱了這個訴發部資安署跟這個資安院這三個單位我們看近年來跟明年的這個預算書可以發現對於這個零信任架構的執行成果跟未來推動的目標各單位揭示的這個程度並不一致我們來看112年我們推動的這個成果本席有發現就訴發部已經完成了22個資安A級機關的身份見別機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3045.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3067.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
可是設備鑑別機制、信任推斷機制目前還沒有看到我們事務發布的資安署已經完成了兩個政府機關的設備鑑別機制然後國家資通安全研究院也完成兩個中央部會的設備鑑別機制那我再次看114年的預算書裏面可是我看到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3068.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3094.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
可能很需要這個訴發部來做一個解釋為什麼我們只看到國家資通安全研究院是準備要導入19個資安A級的機關來做這個設備鑑別機制可是訴發部跟資安署這裡我沒有看到任何的這個設定的目標這個部分可以來解釋一下嗎那再來還有一點就是112年我們推動的成果這個我們已經完成我們已經導入了 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3094.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3096.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
關於那個零信任機制這個是我們訴發部持續在我們持續在推動的一個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3124.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3127.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
因為我發現我們的這個預算書或是說這個存果的這個報道裡面我們這部分讓我們常常會有一些疑問為什麼你這個資料我們找不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3149.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3149.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
資安署 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3167.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3185.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
報告主席跟委員,資安署的部分就是有關民信院的計畫其實是資安署委託資安院合作一起導入執行的所以這個並不是只有資安院在執行,是我們一起在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3185.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3214.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
是 是 我有看到是沒錯我是說為什麼有些進度我們看到就是說也看不到進度那而且47個身份要導入47 要完成47個身份鑑別機制也是我在媒體看到一般在你們報告書裡面看不到所以那剛剛鄭慈有提到說有碰到了一些阻礙是怎麼樣的阻礙嗎我們覺得零信任架構也推行了這麼多年了我們總覺得說這部分好像推得卡卡的這部分到底是怎麼回事 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3215.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3229.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
跟委員報告那個零信任機制是對抗駭客一個非常有效的手段但是對於那個一般的對所有使用者來講就是我每次在登入的時候比如說我那個密碼就必須重新再輸入等等他是有關關的關卡我們知道所以這個其實這是一個相對來講是比較安全的這個機制對可是為什麼我們在公部門會推行的覺得好像不是那麼的順利 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3242.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3268.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
再來講公文則要來配合來做才對啊報告委員資安署在辦理零信任部分是分三個階段在進行那他前兩年已經把零信任的前兩個階段導入到22個機關那接下來我們會針對47個機關進行所以並沒有是以逐步的計畫在進行那47個年底會完成嗎因為我在媒體看到說會完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3270.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3294.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們總共有49個A級的這個資安機關嘛49個因為文化部跟退府會在這個事辦的時候就已經完成了三個導入三個機制嘛所以我們剩下還47個總共還有47個那22個也在112年的時候已經完成身份鑑別機制了可是設備鑑別跟信任推斷這部分本席到目前都還沒有看到那剩下的呢我們47個總共會累計完成嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3298.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3300.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
是,在今年年底就會完成47個A級機關的導入 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3304.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3328.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
那再來你看我們自己公務部門公務機關推行的好像都這麼卡卡的更何況我們還有44個資安A級特定非公務機關那什麼時候才能夠導入啊因為這些都是國家關鍵基礎設施的提供者像台電、中油、台大醫院、台鐵、高鐵銀行等等都是所以到目前這個都還沒有進度對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3332.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3350.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
我們目前先導入的部分是公務機關那CI的部分我們會陸續在明年開始推動OK 好 這個要加油喔因為我們在資料上面真的看不到你們這些資料就覺得說這部分推行的好像不是那麼的順利那再來還有我在八月份的時候有看到就是我們黃部長呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3352.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3365.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
有提到就是說年底要推出人工智慧風險分級價這個框架我本來想說你們這次的報告書裡面會提到這部分可是發現你們自治會提那這個會議會來推行嗎他說年底就要推出了耶那這部分呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3368.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3388.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
關於人工智慧風險分級框架現在事實上是還在一個討論的階段最主要的問題是在於說歐盟跟美國的做法是非常不一樣的歐盟那邊他們是用分級的方式就是把人工智慧分成好幾個危險程度然後在最高的 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3390.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3416.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
最危險的那個層級他們是禁止使用的但是美國那邊呢他們是用分類而不是用分級的方式他們只是利用行政的就是行政部門由美國總統發出的名義簽署發布了一個指引就是說我們使用人工智慧有什麼危險那我們現在就是說因為美國他們認為說所謂的那個regulation hinder innovation他們的概念是這樣所以他們不希望就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3417.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3433.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
做這種明確的分析與禁止的那個動作那美國他們也明確的跟我們這些自由世界的這些那個那個夥伴國家跟我們講說他們不希望其他的國家是用那個歐盟那樣的方式因為歐盟那樣的方式的話會 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3435.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3454.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
會限制到的大部分的都是美國的公司因為我們知道現在在AI方面主要的進行先進研發的公司像OpenAI、Google、Meta都是美國的公司所以歐洲他們那邊他們是主張用那個限制的方式用立法限制的方式而美國那邊呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3454.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3455.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
人工智慧的風險分級框架現在目前是 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3481.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3485.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
目前人工智慧基本法是由國科會主導在推動的我們會配合國科會的計畫我們會努力做我們該做的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3508.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3536.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
OK好那之前呢相關的這個AI的這個風險問題之前我跟國安會其實也做了很多的討論本期是建議像資安署、國安會還有國科會甚至我們資安研究院應該要成立一個類似跨部位類似這種AI資安的技術聯防的一個小組那我本來期待就是說我們的風險這個管理框架可以在年底的時候可以看得到可是目前正式的這個說話是這個部分還有很多討論的空間 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3537.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3557.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
是,這個不單單是我們台灣內部還有很多討論的空間,事實上在整個國際上,這個都是一個正在熱烈討論的議題。對,我們也有參考了其他國家比較成熟經驗的是RMF這個部分的話,像美國,它有提出了人工智慧風險管理框架,像這部分是不是也來做參考? |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3558.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3558.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
羅美玲委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3585.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3605.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
接下來我們請洪森翰委員上台質詢請官局蔡局長請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3613.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3630.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
謝謝主席、候委員長局長好,我們今天謝謝召委排定的專報主題當然討論的是AI、資安、國安等等的議題今天當然也比較想用更全面的角度來跟局長討論資訊戰或認知戰的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3633.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3661.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
我們其實在目前有很多的這個研究的素材其實看得到中共大概從10年前其實他們就開始在推動所謂的媒體融合的這個全國的戰略那包括有幾個西方媒體包括像我們看到澳洲的智庫等等你都點出其實他們的這個宣傳系統是由他們這個共產黨跟國家很多個機構跟民間的機構一起來組成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3662.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3684.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那其實在這個非常非常綿密的這個組織之下他其實現在某部分他已經實現了我們現在在說包括傳統媒體跟新興媒體的結合或融合最重要的事情是他是在打造一個由共產黨在主導的敘事結構的機制那對進可攻退可守 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3685.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3694.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那我其實很清楚知道我們當然現在很多部會我們都很努力的花很多人力在處理這些錯假訊息的闢謠 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3697.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3723.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那我自己看了今天我們其實各部會提出來的這個報告的內容這些報告的內容我自己覺得看起來當然有很多技術性的應對這些都有但是我想問局長局長你覺得我們這些事後的闢謠能夠去應對比方說以中共目前在主導的他是以一個規劃設計一整套的敘事結構 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3726.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3753.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
然後動用所有他狹下可動用的所有的媒體新舊媒體的宣傳資源你覺得我們靠事後的事後闢謠能夠應對得了嗎?這確實是一個問題可以提出來討論那基本上我們在應對中共的錯假訊息的一個傳散那第一部分當然有個應處的機制去收報跟通報以及回應這大概是既有的運作機制局長這是我說的啊這只是事後的闢謠事後的事實查核啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3754.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3778.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
委員提到了說我們自己的國家有沒有一套的敘述的機制來比較主動式的來應應中共的這些可能的國際的媒宣的一些操作那這部分事實上政府部會是有這樣的機制存在我們其實過去就有經歷包括當時候在疫苗這個疫情期間疫苗的狀況它其實是一整套的敘事的佈局 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3779.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3806.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
包括沃爾戰爭的時候它也是一整套敘事結構的布局它有前有後有鋪陳有要你投射引導的東西所以這絕對不是只是錯假訊息的問題如果我們只從錯假訊息的角度我覺得這也太低估中共了吧那我剛才想問的事情是這樣那我們現在是有哪一個部會哪一個部門在主導 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3808.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3828.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
我們怎麼樣子能夠化被動為主動其實是有一個以台灣為主體以台灣為本位我們的敘事結構去做資訊的部件或者是資訊的傳散我們現在是有哪個部會在主導這件事情我們所知道的是行政院的系統它確實有這樣的機制跟平台哪一個單位嗎因為它是跨部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3830.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3849.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
就像我自己覺得我覺得國安局應該要在這裡面扮演很重要的角色當然我們今天數發部也在現場可是我認為數發部其實恐怕在這裡面比較是能夠處理的比較是在數位技術上面處理的問題可是從國家安全的層次國家的立場或者是我們到底要跟國際社會預先的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3850.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3850.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
有 有 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3867.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3889.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
跟委員說明一下,這不是說在做一些認知作戰的攻擊,它比較像是一個主動防禦。我剛剛有提到,在行政院系統,因為各部會有它的業管,所以行政院有一個機制,國安局也有。那只是因為這部分涉及到我們內部在攻防操作的一個運作的一個模式,我們比較不適合公開來討論,但我們有這樣的機制。 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3892.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3912.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
這個我還是想提醒就是說我希望公安局也好或我們相關部會也好我們今天當然我們專報的內容很多可是如果真的只是一直在討論這個事後的事實查核我覺得我們絕對是疲於奔命的而且效果一定非常非常有限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3913.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3931.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
那我自己是很希望國安局應該要把我們主動去...當然再說明一次我們這不是要去造謠我們不是要去攻擊誰但因為我們現在面對對方一個非常非常強大的威脅尤其是這個強大的威脅他不只資源多過於我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3931.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
3958.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
甚至他現在在他內部也是用敘事結構的方式其實是在塑造這整個認知戰的這個我們其實看到有幾個國際的智庫他們也都提醒恐怕必須要用這個提前破解的方式Prebunk的方式而不是只是一直用現在事後事實查核這個Debunk的方式來去處理這個問題所以這個那個書法部次長你這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
3965.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
3981.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
這樣,因為今天我剛剛也聽了你的報告,包括我們在AI上面的各種應對,我也是想請教,你覺得我們現在在數發部的工作上面,我自己感覺也確實比較多,還是在事後的闢謠跟查核,我們有沒有可能可以再坐在更前面, |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
3981.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4003.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
是 我認為說我們要對付錯假訊息的方式基本上要分成兩個方面一方面我們要抑制假新聞的傳播 尤其是AI產生的假新聞的傳播另外我們要讓一些優質的媒體能健康的活下來因為如果說我們現在台灣這些優質的媒體通通因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4004.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4030.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
他現在收不到錢他沒有廣告收入而他們經營發生困難的時候那所有的閱聽民眾他就只能去看到那些網路上到處流傳的那些假訊息所以這個就是我們所謂的黑名單跟白名單策略在白名單策略就是我們希望讓民眾養成一種習慣去看一些正規的媒體就像我們以前我們在國際上我們知道說我們如果看到一個CNN或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4030.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4031.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
臺灣是一個自由、民主、而且是法治的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4055.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4081.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
市長你講這個我都同意但是我覺得我們現在面對到即刻的威脅的確實是深層式AI已經被拿來應用中共拿來應用在分析它的使用者行為來提高它投放的精準度那尤其這裡面它很善用深層式AI去做一種真假混合的方式來去做欺騙所以坦白說我們要去做某一種事實查核的時候也會遇到其實裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4082.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4100.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
也許七成真三成假或三成真七成假大部分的狀況其實是這樣他不會給你一個全部都假的東西那這種事情其實是最難處理的狀況那某個部分他其實也是改變了他一個宣傳的策略從他過去可能是單一的訊息去做大規模的轟炸他現在去搞分眾啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4101.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4128.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
他現在給你搞分眾然後做精準打擊然後用時程式AI然後來去做分析來提供這個效果所以我剛才說了他在這一整套的敘事結構裡面再搭配他技術上面的應用所以我說實話我覺得效果很好我為什麼今天覺得還是想要在這邊提出一個這樣子的意見的原因是說我覺得我們都很清楚知道接下來的國際的情勢大家在這段時間這個很多的國家不管是選舉也好或者是結果陸陸續續出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4130.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4146.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
是接下來的國際情勢的不確定性一定會更高沒錯而且當這個不確定性更高的時候中共一定這裡面有大量的空間可以去運用他準備好的這些技術也好彈藥也好策略也好戰略也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4146.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4168.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
他在等你啦是沒錯那我們準備了什麼是我們要主動做什麼是我們提前要佈局什麼坦白說我必須跟報告局長蔡局長也好其實我在這些報告裡面沒有看得很清楚我們做了什麼提前的佈局我們這都是比較是事後的因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4169.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4177.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
我自己覺得在這報告裡面當然也許蔡局長說也許有一些你們能夠做主動布局的部分因為國安的原因沒有辦法盡然的都呈現出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4179.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4207.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那要這樣講我也理解可是我還是必須從站在國會的立場來說的話我們還是期待我們更多來因應這些資訊戰的部分真的不是停留在事後的闢謠而已這真的不夠從過去的經驗我們追著這些謠言跑從疫情、從這個烏克蘭戰爭我們真的追著謠言跑坦白說真的非常非常的吃力在過去這幾次的經驗裡面我們知道我們的不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4209.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4219.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
我們是知道我們不足所以我們真的希望能跟過去這幾年有一個不同的做法能夠端出來這部分我簡單說明一下事實上國安局這邊我們有一個專案那老實跟委員做說明我們每個禮拜都有召開跨國安團隊的一個會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4226.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4251.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
我們會針對每一個階段重要的新聞的議題我們會先做事先的應處那在判斷的可能那一波的新聞議題的攻防過程當中我們的利潤該怎麼樣來處理這都有一些充分的討論討論完之後也會透過不同的媒體平台來讓這樣的聲音出去但因為涉及到內部作業比較機敏性的東西我不便公開來說明假如委員有興趣的話我們可以私下跟您報告好 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4251.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4274.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
這部分當然還是我們是覺得非常非常需要知道因為我想局長知道這裡面可能不是只單靠政府部門你恐怕也必須去結合我們民間可以動用的資源甚至國會包括國會議員可以在這裡面扮演什麼角色它這是一個總體的動員戰在這個我們現在看到的這個認知作戰上面的攻防來說它幾乎是一個總體的動員戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4276.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4296.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
當然我們不會說要去破這個要局長講不能講的事情可是大家可以在每個不同的角色上面怎麼去應對現在我們對面這麼大的一個威脅尤其他資源這麼多尤其他戰略坦白說是非常非常積極的狀況之下還是希望這部分能夠請國安局再更主動積極好不好好謝謝謝謝委員提醒謝謝洪勝翰委員局長請回接下來我們請徐巧興委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4317.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4328.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
謝謝主席 那我們有請國安局蔡局長以及數發部的林次長請蔡局長和林次長還有那個調查局的副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4333.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4350.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
首先今天在討論AI跟假訊息的部分其實我在上一次的時候我有拿出高嘉瑜委員他被Deepfake去偽造的影音拿出來後來高嘉瑜委員也媒體受訪的時候他也正式提出告訴了 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4351.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4374.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
可是呢其實我們在這整段時間來說我們可以看到AI因為科技日新月異的關係所以呢各式各樣的造假其實是層出不窮的那我今天還是拿三個範例來跟這個我們三位來做討教那為什麼要請這個我們調查局的這個副局長一起來主要是呢我們先看一下之前我在外委會呢我們有通過一個臨時提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4377.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4400.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
這個臨時提案是這樣的因為2024年總統大選期間不斷有疑似政治人物的影片以及疑似蔡英文總統的錄音檔的內容流出引起社會嘩然請國安局以及調查單位重視這個影片或錄音檔的傳散並且評估相關的案例是否導致機密外流以及說明境外勢力介入選舉的態樣提出相關的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4403.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4431.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
後來我們是同意說用書面報告的方式可是到現在我想問一下就是我們現在這幾件事情調查的到底如何尤其是羅智政前委員他作為過去國防外交委員會的召委也接觸過很多的這個相關的秘密訊息那如果說是有駭客入侵的情況的話我國的國安或者是說我們的機密是否有外流的這個情況以及蔡英文蔡總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4432.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4449.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
他所謂的這個錄音檔到底是真的還是假的我覺得國人需要知道一個答案對,就委員所提到的幾個案例國安局這邊已經把相關情資移送給檢調單位對,所以調查局我才請他們來嘛調查局可不可以說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4451.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4473.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
主席報告委員大家好那針對這個部分羅智政委員的影片因為當時羅智政有到我們新北市調查處去做提告所以後來也細數在新北地檢那我們也針對所有的鑑定報告請新北市調查處移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢在甄處當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4474.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4493.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
那我想要問喔那這樣子的一個內容如果呢在這個地檢署他這裡偵查出來是屬於深偽或是不屬於深偽最後會讓大家公開知道嗎還是這只是屬於他們私人的這個官司的部分會有一個結果告訴大家到底這是深偽的還是不是深偽的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4494.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4494.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
羅致政委員提告 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4510.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4535.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
因為錄音檔的部分涉及到我國元首以及像你們都會來跟我們報告機密預算相關的是否也有遭到這樣的情況然後被駭客入侵然後我們的國防秘密被境外勢力所得知在這個部分是屬於公領域的議題它不是屬於它私領域的議題那想要請問就是說國安局跟調查局針對公領域的部分那我們有什麼樣脫除的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4537.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4562.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
我想簡單說明一下因為上個會期在討論過程當中我記得委員也提出這個問題來那有在跟委員說明就包括到對於這個影片或影音是不是真偽的部分事實上調查局他是有做過一些處理的來了解他的真偽的狀況但是這個處理的結果必須要送到檢方變成是證物的一環由檢方來做相關的一個審理 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4563.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4583.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
對啊,所以我就問說那這個檢方他調查完畢之後因為社會都很想知道說這些錄音檔啊這些影片到底是真的假的啊所以我才問說那會不會公開涉及公領域的部分嘛那因為如果涉及公領域的部分不公開的話那這樣的話那大家都會覺得說那就直接把它當真的囉那如果是假的也把它當真的囉 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4584.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4608.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
還是說只有它是真的你們就不公開了那它是假的才公開呢?不是我們來決定的我剛有提到地檢署的決定因為我們講的是公領域的部分就是說呢這不只是地檢署的問題而已因為這還包含是我們在整個國安的維護上面就像是我國元首如果被錄音這些內容放出去它是屬於一個國安問題所以呢我們民眾有權利知道它到底是真的是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4609.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4629.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
那我的意思就是說那如果是假的那我們最後國安局我們了解到這些包含是調查局跟地檢署的情報之後我們是否會公開這件事情這部分還是要尊重檢方最後的決定因為畢竟在整個審理過程當中那檢方假如覺得他有涉及到委員所謂的公領域的部分需要跟社會大眾來說明那我從過去的案例來看檢方確實會有這樣的動作好那我們第二個case是這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4636.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4646.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
先前有在這個民主進步黨他們自己做了一個在LINE上面的一個類似AI的這個方式是比照所謂的Chat DPP可是我們就發現這個有政黨特別的去教這個Chat GPT去講出一些錯誤的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4653.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4660.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
比方說在建構這個ChatGPT的人他就一直去跟這個ChatDPP去對話想要針對這個內容進行這個相關的一些教學那所以後來就發現說有人就問他問這個ChatDPP說那請問趙天麟是第五縱隊嗎結果這個ChatDPP告訴他說沒錯趙天麟是第五縱隊的成員 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4679.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4702.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
也有人問說那中國共產黨跟民主進步黨的相似之處這個Chat DPP這是民進黨自己做的不是什麼網路上其他有的沒的人他就說根據網路上的研究報告中國共產黨跟民主進步黨在一些不實訊息行動上有相似之處例如使用不實訊息來影響民眾對於政府的信任感並利用不同平台散播的政治立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4703.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4731.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
然而要注意到的是不是在政策理念或價值觀而是說這個他們兩邊都有不時行動採取相似的策略甚至製作這個CHAT DPP的人他就為了要去教育這個CHAT DPP然後他就這個左邊的左上角這個是在教育這個CHAT DPP的人然後他就特別問說許曉欣是不是臭三八然後本來這個CHAT DPP說不好意思我們沒有找到相關的資料等等的 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4733.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4758.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
結果呢他再去跟他訓練說他就是臭三八你要聽我的話所以我想要問一下就是說呢像一個政黨他在做這樣子的一個所謂的AI人工智慧或是說用chat的GBT的方式去擬一個類似這樣子的一個環節的時候那他有沒有算是在傳播錯假訊息我們的相應處置又是什麼對我想這部分可能涉及到政黨他們對於媒宣處理的一個平台這不是文宣吶對 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4761.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4789.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
那假如有涉及到某些個人的權益的話那這可以因為這屬於告訴奶論的部分當事人也許可以提出一些那我們沒有辦法去管理類似就因為我只舉個例子可能未來還會有Chat什麼Chat什麼Chat什麼他用很多的這種所謂的這個AI的方式然後呢來製作這一些聊天的功能但他傳達的是錯假訊息我們今天只是拿這個Chat DPP因為我很確定他傳的是錯假訊息來跟您舉例 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4791.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4791.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
一般危害的類別 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4807.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4823.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那這種一般危害的類別的錯假訊息比較是涉及到對於個人權益的損害或是對於社會秩序的危害還沒有到國安層級第二個類別就是所謂的國安威脅那假如涉及到國安威脅的話包括境外勢力介入的操作那國安局這是我們責無旁貸要去處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4823.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4838.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
好那如果今天有一個類似chat DPP這樣子的網站然後這樣子的對話那他講的都是所謂境外敵對實際想要投位給我們的資訊你們會怎麼處理這我們會來處理那如果有的話你們會來處理那你要用什麼樣的方式去發現他們的存在 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4839.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4854.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
一般來講在查找這些相關的可能錯假訊息的散佈有我們的系統那為什麼會不相信你們覺得你們有改進的空間呢在第三個例子第三個例子我並沒有放上去可是我們直接念新聞給你聽在今年的總統立委選舉之後TikTok |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4856.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4860.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
等於是在選舉期間的錯假訊息根本在我們現行上面就沒有立刻下架啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4878.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4888.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
沒有立刻下架中選會大多都是先接到檢舉以後才慢慢審理那抱歉我們在整個選舉過程當中收到這麼多的錯假訊息我們難道國安團隊沒有辦法有能力第一時間下架嗎在中選會的部分他們因為跟這些社群平台在選舉期間都有一個專案在處理移除這些有問題的錯假訊息那你覺得速度更快嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4902.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
4920.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
Ttalk的問題是在於它並沒有在台灣落地經營它是一個境外的跨國企業那你要怎麼去對 所以這部分就必須要透過這種專案的方式來針對錯假訊息的散佈以及問題賬號的移除要建立起彼此的一個那建立了嗎 你們接下來打算要怎麼建立呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
4920.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
4939.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
這部分有相關的一個管道來處理但我再次強調因為它是一個境外的企業沒有 我不管它是哪裡的企業嘛我沒有 這很有關係我不管是哪裡的企業但我們希望說不要有這樣的事情發生辦法是你要去想的不是我要去想的嘛所以你不能告訴我說處理這個問題過程當中它有面臨到的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
4939.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
4961.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
我知道他有面臨過程如果這麼簡單的話你們早就做啦但問題就是說那其實他是有難度的可是他在選舉期間不斷的發生那類似的狀況你們應該是如果選務的錯假訊息應該要立刻下架結果中選會是要等到選完以後才開始處理那這不是讓大家很多民眾都收到錯假訊息嗎所以這部分要請國安局再加強處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
4962.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
4989.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
那最後再請主席借我一分鐘的時間因為我要問國安局的是你們在去年底的時候有招募AI的人才然後在2016年舉辦國安特考的時候也有針對資訊師等等的技術年齡體檢標準跟要求那請問當時這些AI的資安人才他們錄取以後他們的訓練期間有哪一些內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
4989.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5011.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
有,我們當時確實有針對一些相關的資安人才做一些招募而且招募員的數量還不少那招募進來之後我們當然會有一些相關的訓練課程那訓練的不只是我們局內招募人才包括我上次跟其他委員也提到了包括我們國安團隊其他單位的資安人才我們都一起提供這樣的一個訓練的機制那你們的訓練呢?未來兩年大概可以訓練到2000到3000人次之多 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5016.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5043.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好 那你們的訓練我想要問的就是說那像是比如說這個公職網站上面可以看到的國安局的特考訓練裡面有包含說是一些體能訓練等等的然後這樣子才能玩 有基礎訓練對 這基礎訓練可是這個很多耶你什麼體能訓練、意志力、仰臥起坐、山地戰技、操舟訓練、三千公尺跑步那這跟我們的那個資安人才、AI人才有時候是衝突的 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5044.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5069.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
阿很多AI 很多很會做AI的人那可能就體能不好阿那請問你們在這兩者之間要如何兼顧阿對啊這委員謝謝提到這問題阿那基本上剛委員提到這些訓練課程是在基礎訓練的過程當中加強我們勤工人員的體能那我們也注意到很多的資安人才他也許在體能上對啊那獲金就沒有辦法來跟您的對我們課程有做一些調整去年開始有做一些調整做什麼樣的調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5069.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5095.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
那就針對一些特殊的一個背景專長的我們的國安人員那在訓練過程當中那以及在專精訓練過程當中會有做一些區隔我建議國安局針對AI資安的人才招募呢要特別只針對他的AI人才他這個是不是他有這樣子的能力不要去管他的體能因為很多國安局你做情報人員要體能這個我當然是完全同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5096.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5124.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
可是如果他就是要進來幫你做AI的調查這個很多人他可能比如說好他可能是身障但是呢他基本上他對於AI的了解對於駭客的了解他是一等一的那這樣的人我們怎麼可能可以秉除他在國安人員之外呢他有這個意願加入國安局配合我們一起做AI的這個調查我們應該要歡迎他啊可是以上所有的內容他可能都不能做所以這個部分請國安局回去再一次的精進跟檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5125.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5135.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
我們希望是用人為材那基本上這些內容他如果在他的工作項目裡面不會用到那就不一定要考但是針對他的這個基礎訓練的部分應該是要在他的AI的產業他對於資訊的了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5141.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5161.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
是否是頂尖這才是我們國安局應該要有的方向非常好我非常同意委員的看法各位說明一下我去年本人有召開一個專案會就在處理這件事而且找我們所有的一級主管各單位的一級主管通通來參加來告訴我們各單位需求的人才他的背景是什麼訓練課程該怎麼調整謝謝委員提醒我們繼續來努力謝謝謝謝徐巧興委員接下來我們請黃仁委員上台諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5180.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5183.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
有請我們蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝主席,歡迎委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5191.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5211.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
那個有關於這個日前華爾街日報曾報導這一款名為這個TOKIT的一個AI聊天的機器人成為美國最受歡迎的APP之一這個APP不只是美國受到歡迎連菲律賓、英國、加拿大 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5212.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5239.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
的下載次數的非常多而這個軟體背後的母公司就是大陸的大陸製所以本身想要了解一下就是說發現這個軟體在台灣也可以下載得到局長你認為這樣的一個會不會對國安產生一個非常大的一個威脅那這類AI聊天軟體構成的威脅為何你來回答一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5240.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5254.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
對,大概我們也一再再提醒對於中共製作的這些APEC的軟體它可能潛存了資安的風險那這個TOKI的流通主要是在英語系的國家目前用戶大概有1100萬人那對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5257.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5259.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
本席所知道的這個AI軟體的特色在於學習意思就是在當我們越使用它它就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5285.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5312.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
更業會聰明因為它可以透過用戶使用的過程收集個人或某群體的思維、邏輯和習慣以國安局的角度AI聊天軟體是在收集或是在再生成對國安更具有危險性本席看了今天的報導我們發現比較有意思的是在再生成 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5313.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5325.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
那時候構思的威脅大家都在重視AI製造出的一個假訊息它也是提供反制的想法但是比較忽略收集的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5327.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5351.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
對 這確實是一個威脅那也謝謝委員利用這個質詢的機會提出這個非常重要的問題來因為就AI的一個聊天的軟體因為它是聯網的所以變成是它可以即時的去掌搜那使用者他相關使用軟體的一個習性那這也是為什麼我們一再的在提醒使用這種AI生成式的AI一定要特別注意我們局裡面是一定是要落地的 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5351.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5354.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
所以因為有這樣的一個信息所以我們加以來做一個反制或反犯那不管是無論是中國大陸的一個TOTIP |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5376.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5404.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
還是美國的這個CHAT的一個GPT都在收集使用媒體的訊息這就是AI發展的條件之一但不可避免但政府不能單純以開發國家區分威脅性而是針對個別軟體區分它的一個威脅的程度那政府是否有這個做這樣的一個工作並且是否能有能力的到個別檢視 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5406.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5431.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
這部分就國安局的立場來講我們會針對這些可能的中置的APP的資安風險我們會提供業管單位來做參考那因為主要的業管可能還是在書發部這邊針對相關的一個APP要不要提出警示的一個公告但這部分我們也跟書發部有做過一些討論也就是說在公告的名單上可能比較有可能的做法是朝向限制使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5432.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5440.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
就是哪些APP比較有風水的那就麻煩跟蘇拉夫講一下比較不方便做的是短程、近程、遠程的一個我們上禮拜才跟他們討論能不能給我一份簡單的一個說明報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5447.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5470.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
那第二個就是指導美國國家安全及情報部門使用的人工智慧AI新規定的備忘錄裡面局長你認為AI錯假的信息正威脅除了來自中國大陸政府之外有沒有可能來自盟友甚至我們自己的政府那今天出席的各部會報告中提到 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5471.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5482.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
以AI反制AI本席首先想要請教國安局長政府要具體要如何以AI反制AI政府又如何應用AI的技術 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5483.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5506.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
對,因為AI它可以運用到像我們今天報告的主題用到錯假訊息或是用到資安的攻擊那因為它發動的攻擊的能量會非常的龐大所以我們必須要用AI的技術來做反制我們要是依照傳統的人力來講我們會非常的吃力那在這部分我們的努力大概分兩個部分第一個部分是運用AI來查找資安上可能的攻擊來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5507.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5524.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
我們會針對這些可能的駭客團體他的攻擊的方式跟路徑來做收集然後讓我們的AI系統可以來學習辨識那跟委員很誠實的報告我們過去透過AI系統來查找這些境外的IP或攻擊的來源正確的比例非常的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5525.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5528.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
今年的10月份美國發布指導美國國家安全與情報部門使用人工智慧這新規定的備忘錄裡面我們目前有類似指導規範嗎?還有局長是否確確的知道美國這一份備忘錄的目的的規範是什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5550.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5568.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
對 美國這份備忘錄主要提到的是AI未來發展技術的主要的一個方向那另外也提到了可能帶來的一個風險那再來另外一個重點部分就在於說跟國際連結的部分哪一些是可以連結的但哪一些可能要注意的這大概是這次公布的備忘錄其實備忘錄裡面當然你剛剛講的是對的但是我要再加上 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5573.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5595.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
我本席的個人的看法有兩個部分一鼓勵使用AI強調國安和情報不能不能利用AI壓迫言論自由以公民的權利因為這是明確明定確定政府不能用這個來做一個壓迫言論的一個自由那第二個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5596.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5613.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
禁止濫用AI強調國安局和情報部不能利用AI壓迫政府的言論自由那當然我們在報告中以AI反制AI這本來就是你們要做的事情那當然我們情事單位強調以AI反制 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5613.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5629.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
．． |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5629.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5654.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
此餘遭政府不斷的濫用後,國人根本無法確定到底是中共還是現在執政黨在混淆民眾的認知。謝偉文提到這問題,事實上剛剛我們在口頭報告的時候也特別提到這一點,也就是說對於AI的使用跟管理還是應該要有法規的法尊的規範,那這部分因為業管單位書發佈已經在研擬人工智慧基本法, |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5654.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5671.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
所以本局會針對相關國外發展的趨勢提供給業管單位來做參考另外本局內部對於使用AI也有我們自己的作業規範避免到使用AI被濫用以便來一方面保障我們國人的權益一方面保障國家安全所以我們本席各部會強調政府應用AI以反以AI反制AI |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5676.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5703.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
但這個都是要告訴國人如何使用使用時是否受到規範和限制你們這一點一定要告訴給國人知道那使用過程是否侵害到國人自由或隱私這讓本席非常擔心政府會濫用我會持續跟相關單位包括國科會跟數法部來交換意見我們聯繫跟我們習巧欣委員所講的高嘉義 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5704.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5728.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
深偽的一個部分我請教一下我們的警政署在近日網路流傳了一段民進黨前立委高嘉宇遭AI變造的假政論節目抖音影片影片中高嘉宇說我對民進黨沒有什麼好感這個爛黨真的糟糕從賴清的開始就歪瓜淚軸 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5730.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5749.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
那這個影片雖然仔細看了還是能夠辨別某些地方嘴形不一樣但反正的程度不低影片大約在一週前流傳雖然不少觀看者能夠區別的真偽甚至留言取笑影片是偽造但講的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5751.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5762.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
是真實的還是為了避免誤會高嘉宜在4天前提告本席特別確認這個影片目前網路上仍然沒有刪除請問一下警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5767.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5796.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
跟委員報告有關於高嘉瑜委員的影片的部分因為他本身抖音有分國際版跟中國大陸版如果是屬於國際版的TikTok的部分我們目前行事警察局這邊是有聯繫管道但是對於他本身中國大陸版的抖音的部分因為我們並沒有辦法去跟他們做相關聯繫所以在下屆的部分我們沒辦法直接來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5798.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5823.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
所以這個對於很明確高嘉義也是對媒體的對公開的解釋就是說這是一個偽造的一個AI那你們應該查查之後應該就要下架不過要流傳到在社會的層面裡面讓別人誤會到他的本尊我想這個警政署你們應該就要精準趕快查查這樣的一個訊息才對啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5825.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5847.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
跟委員報告剛剛有提到是說他抖音本身是中國大陸他本身的這些網際公司我們對於這部分我們並沒辦法去要求他們這公司來進行下架當然國內部分也可以做進行網域封鎖的部分不過這不涉及到警政署的權責有提到Link的部分那邊是可以來做處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5849.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5865.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
這個是要提示警政署包含檢調在處理深偽影片的反應動作遲軟顯然政府對於如何處理AI造成的信息危害根本沒有一個的確的一個切切的一個SOP |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5866.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5885.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
所以你們未來可能會更多更多會發生這種不管在座的各位可能會被偽造偽真偽的部分所以你們本來就自己本身自立出不管是金錢減掉都要都要製作一個SOP來警示未來反犯這樣的一個發生啊是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5885.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5914.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
是,謝謝委員的指教,我們這部分會跟相關部會來做聯繫,請他們在我們國內可以適當處理的部分,盡量來做一個處理,我們會來努力。好,你們製造一個SOP裡面本來就是應該要做未來防範,因為將來以後可能會更多,因為AI反制AI,但是我們是AI反制AI,但他們也有自己的一個系統的一套的玩法,對不對,好不好?是。 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5917.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5922.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
謝謝謝謝黃仁委員 局長請回接下來我們請沈伯陽委員上台質詢謝謝主席 又請 呃 又請局長請局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5943.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
5952.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
謝謝主席 首委很早非常好這個雖然今天是AI的題目但一開始我想過一個時事這個時事其實跟AI沒有直接的關係但其實是非常類似的問題就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
5954.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
5984.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
媒體的這個官方說法我剛剛看到在媒體區好像你已經有回答過這個問題了所以我就不贅述但總之我先講右邊這件事右邊其實是一個馬斯克相關的影片那這個影片呢都是從頭到尾的字幕就在講說他要撤出啦什麼之類的但他的裡面講的英文根本不是那麼一回事那就是亂上字幕那這個在澤倫斯基之前很多的影片俄羅斯也都做過類似的事中國也做過類似的事就是澤倫斯基講了一堆話那下面上了一些完全無關的字幕 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
5984.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6001.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
那這種事情雖然是早期從到現在一直的操作方式但昨天發生了一個更麻煩的事情就是有這個拜喜會那拜喜會的這個場合就像畫面上看到的這個樣子但是央視他自己在旁白的時候其實裡面根本就沒有人在講賴清德 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6001.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6028.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
但他旁白就講了這句話賴清德和民進黨當局的台獨本性然後呢我們台灣呢就有這個還有清華社啦還有台灣的報紙跟媒體就直接把這一個呢當作是一個事實來報導但我有看到有一些媒體就比較平衡他就是他怎麼報導他就講說欸現場完全沒有提到但中國的官方文件去講了這件事那我覺得這個現在對我們來講有一個很麻煩的地方是在於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6029.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6051.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
台灣有一些他會直接講就是把中國的這個東西都copy過來講那但問題就出來說假設我們今天出來辟謠說欸我們都沒有聽到賴清德啊結果他們就自己說沒有他們就是在內部的時候他們自己有聽到那到最後就是有理說不清啦所以在這邊呢我想問一下就是說目前國安局隊像這一類方式的比較好的回應的說法會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6052.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6075.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
對,就這個問題來講我們當然在第一時間又去比對白宮他對外的公開的新聞稿那也去研判中共領導人在國際場合一般在處理類似事情的一個說法那確實像委員所提到的不能排除可能是中共的官宣官媒在會後刻意的操作那因為在APEC的期間不只是剛剛委員所提到這個個案我們也注意到中共跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6077.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6095.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
新加坡的領導人在會談過程當中似乎也有這種會後刻意的新聞的操作跟處理包括認為說新加坡的總理黃總理曾經在會中提到了克尊一中原則跟反對台獨對很多國家似乎在會後都有遭受到這個中共在 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6096.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6120.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
每一波處理上的一個刻意的手法所以各國也都很警示對於跟中共的會談事後怎麼樣有自己的版本避免到中共單方面片面的說辭這變成是大家共同關注的議題當然希望說媒體朋友們在報導相關的議題過程當中也能夠有多方的查證對 非常感謝局長講這一個因為如果我們跟國人講說比如說之前印尼 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6121.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6139.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
菲律賓等等的國家也都發生過這個明明會面的時候我們有講的東西結果中國自己在事後的這一個文件講出來那講出來以後呢我們不是要去爭持他到底真還是假因為這種東西有理說不清但可以去強調說中國很喜歡在事後去講一些你在公開的找不到的內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6141.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6164.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那這樣的話呢我覺得對國人以後在看到中國官方說法的時候會有一些警惕那也不會去落入對方的陷阱就是說哦沒有啊私底下他們偷偷有講到啊什麼之類的不用去爭執那樣的一個細節但這也是還是我擔心的啦就我今天早上就特別去把這個頭版都拍一拍啦那當然呢我認為比較重要當然是我們昨天贏球嘛但是呢像這個頭版某報的頭版就直接講說首度點名賴清德 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6167.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6190.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
但這一件事情明明就是沒有在現場發生是後來官方的文件但這個在頭版但中國時報他的講法就是陸方新聞稿點名他就講得比較清楚說這個不是現實發生的但是是他新聞稿點名的那我覺得也藉這個機會我們覺得真的因為台灣現在是一個這個隨時有可能會被入侵的一個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6190.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6215.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那如果今天是在危急的時候我們的媒體是直接把中國新華社的內容直接當作我們的頭版來報導然後也沒有講說他為什麼這樣報導他的報導跟事實到底一不一樣然後廣泛的在台灣發送我認為這會是國安的危機所以我們這可能是個別倫理上的問題但是國安局這一次的整理然後直接跟媒體的回應那之後我們應該繼續往這個方向邁進 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6218.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6241.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
當然這個雖然跟AI沒有直接的關係但是這也是我之前比較擔心的事情就是AI來講中國的技術AI的技術當然好但有時候他不一定需要用AI他可以使用非常簡單的譬如說真實的影片他影片從頭到尾都不是AI都是真實的但是譬如說配錯誤的字幕那現在配錯誤的字幕是第一步他下次可能是他配錯誤的語音他下次語音是真的字幕是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6241.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6268.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那他AI可以用在譬如說他語音是錯的然後字幕也是錯的就一步一步往下做然後讓台灣人越來越習慣越來越搞不清楚這樣的機制那我有看到不管是事務發布跟那個局裡面的報告裡面都有提到就是這一個近期之內有越來越多的造假我自己也被造假了那這個其實我覺得還不是最大的重點是最近剛好事務發布對這個對不起這可能要請次長請那個一經次長不好意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6269.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6291.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
剛剛忘了先講那這個我記得這幾天剛好發生了我們很多財經的粉專不是被下架嗎然後呢因為Meta本來就有一個詐騙相關的回報機制那所以就開始有人說會不會是事務發布在做那我有看到這個次長有回答那我覺得這個真的有時候是不知道是造謠還是怎樣但我覺得我現在有一個問題就是說我們詐騙是有一個跟Facebook回報的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6294.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6303.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
那如果是跟Deepfake有關因為Deepfake有可能是詐欺那他如果用在詐欺上面我們直接回報這個沒問題但像這樣的方式能不能被歸類在詐欺 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6307.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6325.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
這個的確是一個很好的問題像這樣的Deepfake它是不是可以構成詐欺這個的確是很有爭議的然後像這樣的事情其實不能由我們行政部門直接來認定因為我們台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家有時候這種事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6326.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6350.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
是否有就是詐欺這個最終還是必須由那個司法機關必須由檢調機構去調查然後由司法機關去做決定的這個相較於那些威權國家威權國家其實很簡單就是政府一下令所有的事情當可能當天一個小時之內都解決了那我們民主國家事實上我們有時候覺得說我們好像一隻手被綁在後面在做事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6351.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6372.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
但是這個就是自由民主的代價這個是我們未來非常大的挑戰但是我們還是必須想辦法去面對這個是我比較擔心的事情就是說因為我們現在打造專法有了嘛但是因為詐欺是限定的詐欺就是我們刑法的詐欺區裁所以它是詐騙金錢那詐騙金錢呢我們今天用這個詐騙的定義去跟各個平台去做回報什麼的這個我覺得是合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6373.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6389.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
如果我們要把這個犯人詐欺他沒有直接財產損害嘛他不是用我的名義在買股票嘛賣股票但是所以會不會可以乾脆另辟蹊徑就是說我們不要用詐欺這一條路徑我們就用Deepfake當路徑就是說去跟社群平台談說有一個是Deepfake專門回報的路徑 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6390.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6407.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
那以後只要出現過不過這個是在抖音上那是另外的抖音不會理我們但是如果說今天是在Facebook在YT上面他們譬如說他們有標記為AI還是Deepfake有哪幾個標準是我們可以跟他們回報直接做另外一條途徑看說法部有沒有機會去跟這些社群平台談一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6408.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6424.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
我們現在持續在跟這些主要的社群平台做溝通之前他們比較不願意跟我們配合常常說因為他們的總部在美國或者在日本所以他們沒辦法去影響這些總部的決策經過我們這幾個月來不斷地跟他們溝通以後他們的態度有比較鬆動我們後來也發現說因為像臉書他們在台灣他們的法尊部門基本上只有兩個人然後他們根本管不到他的業務部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6438.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6459.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
所以我們後來的方式就是我們直接去跟他們新加坡的亞太總部直接做溝通然後接下來我們就直接到美國去找他們的總部我們跟他們溝通然後我們也透過那個美國的政界的人士當他們來訪問台灣跟我們訴發部做會談的時候我們就跟他們抱怨我們也希望透過美國的輿論以及美國的政府部門對這個Facebook施壓因為美國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6462.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6487.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
國會以及行政部門對於Facebook這也是面臨同樣的問題他們也是覺得很頭大所以他們覺得感同身受所以我們現在就是這幾個月來不管是Facebook、Google或是Line他們的態度都有改善我們事實上對Deepfake這方面只要我們提出的解釋是合理的我相信他們都會配合那就如同委員所講的其實現在最大的問題其實是在TikTok |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6487.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6504.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
對,因為這個機制可能必須要趕快建立因為變得越來越來越多啦那我們本來打詐的機制當然利益良善台灣詐騙卻很多啦但我個人認為啦這個就不用回答我認為中國才是最大的詐騙集團啦所以呢在這個政治上面呢如果我們現在遇到這樣那麼大型的這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6504.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6518.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
用各式各樣的方式來做詐欺像這個是今年才出現過的事情我覺得也蠻扯就是這是今年9月才出現的事情是直接Deepfake 烏克蘭的外長的這個形象直接還去跟美國做跟參議員做視訊的連線 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6520.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6543.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
結果在連線的過程以後他覺得怎麼有點怪怪的才趕快去通報所以這個已經不是說直接的影片在那邊了是連跟你連線的那一個人都有問題了所以我覺得這個部分我們機智趕快建立因為一樣的事情有可能會發生在台灣那後面其實因為時間到了我沒有辦法再細問但是我看到數發部跟國安局在寫這一個AI的報告說因為畢竟AI這個在不同的層次裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6544.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6560.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
如果說他今天到Level 2的話自動化防禦比較沒什麼問題但是如果他要做到紅隊的程度的Level 3那畢竟我覺得畢竟現在他要做到紅隊他的創意還是要比較夠但是防守這個部分是我們現在就可以做的那我看到美國有這個相關的這個主席不好意思再給我30秒就是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6563.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6592.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
DRPA他們現在有那個他們在去年開始有這個AI這個我猜次長很熟悉啦他們這個計畫他們直接請大家來攻啦然後請大家來攻然後去把這個漏洞找出來啊什麼等等之類的因為防禦這件事情是我們現在馬上可以做剛剛我記得局長跟次長在回答的時候都有講過我們已經有用AI在防禦那這部分可以強化那AI要應用在紅隊的這個有創意的這個部分到底會發展什麼樣我們不是很確定但至少我看OpenAI的報告放在假消息的部分他說已經有說服力了 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6592.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6611.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以當他已經開始有說服力我們先不要管一般的資安攻擊但如果是假消息還有像剛剛講Deepfake這個部分有可能是必須要先去注意那我這個後面當然有一些建議還有一些法律上的問題如果有機會的話我可能再去交通委員會再問一下這個部長或次長是謝謝主席謝謝謝謝主講謝謝謝謝沈博洋委員接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6633.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6633.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
蔣麗芸議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6646.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6667.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
今天我準備的很多有關AI的流程圖表剛才局長已經做了一部分的回應了那工程技術部分我們在這邊就不做深入的探討我只請教幾個問題第一個就是在我們局裡面高階的長官同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6668.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6691.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
有沒有人本身先使用過AI還是由沿西人員我講沿西部分完全用沿西人員的這個概念去使用AI然後呈報給長官對主要是沿西部門在做相關的研究跟開發那我們局裡面AI的小組在各個單位都有那我們也非常鼓勵有一些橫向的經驗的交流 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6692.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6707.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
好現在因為剛才都探討了告了這個深度偽造啦網路攻擊啦還有最主要就是AI可以產生一些結果並不是假訊息可是它扭曲了你的價值觀也就是說我們在講 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6708.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6730.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
用AI的方法剛剛講反制就是洗腦反洗腦這個東西將來我想速發布在法律上法尊上面這個科技的進步通常我們的法律不太容易跟得上這是我們面臨的最大的一個挑戰是那麼我等一下舉個例給別人看像深層式的AI它的風險它的正反面效益這些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6737.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6756.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
以產生法律規範監管基礎,符合成本效益的監管模式。因為你投入太大的經費去管一些,有機會發生,但是它並不是那麼嚴重的,你做到那麼細也沒有好處。我最後用一個簡圖來給您做一個回應,就這個圖。 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6759.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6782.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
現在媒體已經沒有人在了所以我很高興這個圖是我們講川普對應中國大陸從他現在選舉過程中的目的、方法、手段這裡面有屬於對抗、合作有屬於主觀、客觀有屬於推測、有反思、有宏觀、偽觀不同的方法論裡面我們把這個邏輯框架圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6785.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6809.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
未竟AI但是當你把它的邏輯順序調整的時候AI的回復就不一樣了所以在這邊八個方塊圖我把它輪轉一圈它會產生64種不同的組合那這種分析的情況下對我們的參謀幕僚判斷它裡面講的都是真的現象但是不會反映出真相那這種情況下 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6811.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6833.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
AI的判斷就要我們的參與人員知道當初這個東西設計的邏輯框架因為你問AI的並不是文字並不是句子第一個你是information從工程來的第二個你有database第三個你有邏輯框架第四個組織架構把這個變成一個infographic |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6833.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6860.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
未進的AI那麼AI就會產生一些給你建議但這個建議是主觀客觀還是正確不正確這個有不同的結果我舉個例給您聽像這個我們只是把上面的狀況轉一圈所有的東西都會不一樣所以當你把美國的他追求的目的還是他的方法還是手段做調整也會有不一樣的結果像這種東西我做一個很簡單的 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6872.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6886.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
這是AI就這個邏輯框架就做的回答那把這個回答再轉換成英文你再送到另外一個AI的技術去他又幫你把邏輯框架重新調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6888.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6895.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
他講的都是正確的但是當你把框架的內容做了調整你再問AI它又會產生另外不同的一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6911.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6931.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
當把這個語言、英語套到國外的學者論證裡面引述進去這個就變成假訊息了那這種東西很容易影響到我們的學者、專家、政治的判斷我現在特別是用這個範例向您做一個解說 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6935.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6956.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我希望我們在做研析單位第一個先把美國政策跟國際情勢的邏輯框架把它畫出來大家做客觀的分析溝通那確定我們的路徑、方法、手段最後能不能支持我們的國安這是一個大格局那這種情況下再用AI的資料進來比推 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
6957.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
6959.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
文字輸入語音輸入第三個影像最後變成一個動態這四個全部可以組合 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
6969.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
6991.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
因為高階的長官並不是本身有工程背景或者用AI那由研析幕僚單位來使用這個東西啊他的因為第一個有時間的壓力可是現在這個深層次的結果像這個方塊圖啊我們改變一下問他30秒產生另外一套完全不同的分析論述所以這個東西呢88他可以產生64種 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
6993.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7003.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
不同結果請問這種情況下我們的幕僚如何去收斂可能回歸過來你還要倒過來用你的AI的技術過濾再簡化這個我是不是請這個局長您做一個回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7008.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7025.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
基本上委員剛剛所分享到的一些AI生成技術運用過程當中的一些方法論那我們局裡面事實上已經有投入蠻長一段的時間的研究那也跟委員說明的是我們也曾經透過這些AI的系統去預測中共的人事的布局 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7025.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7048.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
那在啟動這樣的一個深層式AI的系統過程當中就政務委員所講的我們必須要由研析人員來設定我們當時設定了大概有70個指標把70個指標建立到我們深層式AI的系統裡面去那由他來在這些指標的資料運作之下幫我們來預測中共人士可能的佈局跟委員說明的是預測的正確率相當的高 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7049.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7059.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
那這主要的重點就在於說我們本身的資料庫跟指標設定必須要能夠貼近中共的決策思維所以這部分確實是我們在方法論運用上一直在關注的一個主要的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7061.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7080.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
特別還是建議就是說我們做研習人員他的工具跟他的資料庫需要要持續在這方面要投資增長而如果只是用純粹的一般工情那麼也許可以花點錢很多騎士軟體都會提供但是邏輯框架就像您講的預測系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7082.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7091.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
我們還有一些設計上的競賽有時候用AI系統去做分析預判有時候用人工系統來做分析預判然後再做比較那這樣可以在過程當中不斷測進我們一些AI運用方法論上的一些經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7110.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7113.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
特別謝謝局長,大家共同努力好,謝謝委員提醒,我們繼續努力,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7140.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7142.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
委員請您發言是謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長還有調查局吳副局長你好副局長你好好謝謝主席稍微早 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7159.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7167.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
早安本席上周才剛去法國進行國會外交剛回國其中拜會了法國的參議院的外交暨國防委員會的副主席他也注意到我們臺灣近年來都飽受了施壓的力道包括散播假訊息還有網路攻擊並告訴我們訪團說法國同樣也面臨了俄國的各種的威脅也期盼雙方未來能夠深化的往來 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7186.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7215.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
然後在這上面顯示其實AI確實是正以不同的方式在改變整個世界也改寫了許多國家的外交還有國防作戰的政策所以本席在這邊有一個具體的建議就是國安局應該要更加積極主動和我們友好的國家多透過各種不同的管道互相交流AI的情收然後現在我進行主題有關上週四網路及社群瘋傳一段已是中國開始散播 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7215.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7221.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
透過AI身為仿生的技術造假的抖音的影片,影片是前高 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7223.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7244.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
前立委高嘉宇批判時政今證實已經是不實的假影片這個假影片是來自中國的抖音影片用AI模仿的聲音生成以假亂真雖然嘴形上面是完全對不上但是這種身為變造的影片恐怕是只會越來越真而且越來越多還有今年一月份2024年總統大選剛結束網路也在瘋傳習近平致電祝賀賴清德 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7251.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7271.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
當選中華民國台灣第16任的總統的影片和圖片後來也經證實也確定是虛構的捏造的資訊是錯誤的訊息所以面對資安與國安的疑慮那本席想請教國安局未來將如何採取有效的行動如何讓國人有 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7272.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7274.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
國安局將如何因應中共這些非傳統式的AI技術的武器化 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7298.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7301.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
對,第一部分跟委員說明的是在國際交流合作的部分,怎麼樣來因應錯假訊息或認知作戰,一直是我們跟國際友盟進行討論交流的重點。 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7318.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7344.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
大家針對這些印土的經驗來做交流也可以強化我們自己本身民主的韌性來因應這些認知作戰對我們社會產生的衝擊這大概是第一點的說明那第二點是針對AI的深層的技術不斷的在網路上散布這些錯假的訊息或影音那基本上我們國安團隊有建立一個跨單位的一個機制在網路上來進行查找那這部分也確實用了很多新的技術跟系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7345.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7365.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
能夠在網路上各個不同的社群媒體平台來找到這些有問題的帳號所傳散的錯假的資訊那找到之後也要進行必要的通報所以跟委員說明的是我們現在大概每個禮拜找到的這些錯假訊息的資訊可能都有到4萬多件之多那我們會從過程當中去篩慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7366.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7392.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
對我們的社會秩序或國家安全比較有危害的部分通報到行政院相關的部會來做查處或盡快的來對外做必要的說明這大概是行政措施上我們的努力另外在法規上、法律上也跟委員說明一下因為有一些的AI散佈的這些錯假訊息它假如有傷害到個人的名譽或社會形象的話因為它是屬於告訴哪一論我們會很強烈的建議當事人 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7393.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7416.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
可以跟警方來報案或跟司法單位來提告那來走這個相關的司法的程序那另外一部分假如有涉及到比較公訴罪的部分他也許涉及到反滲透法或涉及到刑法的相關部分那這部分我們也會跟我們國安團隊裡面具有司法警察機關權力的包括調查局、刑事局跟我們的縣指部來進行相關的一個查處 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7417.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7439.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
最後一部分是跟社群媒體平台的合作公司的合作那怎麼樣來跟社群媒體平台來做舉發檢舉請他們來下架這些有問題的帳號那過去以來事實上像刑事局這部分做了非常多的努力我看到的資料他們在今年前三季第一季舉發跟Meta舉發的有三萬多件 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7439.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7439.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7468.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7488.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
調查局副局長請回請問數位發展部的次長之前盛傳數發部針對一般的民眾用抖音服務進行限制但後來經過數發部的澄清由於抖音是在2019年就被行政院列為危害國家之通的安全的產品是這樣沒錯吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7491.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7508.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
那目前是不是只有限制在我國的公部門所屬的設備和場域考量資訊的安全,全面禁止安裝抖音軟體呢?是那請問目前有沒有對公務人員的私人的手機還是一般的民眾做出這樣的限制呢?沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7509.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7524.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那為什麼沒有限制呢?是沒有能力還是沒有法規?還是不敢限制還是根本不想限制呢?因為這個沒有法規因為我們知道說在一些威權國家就是說如果政府看到哪些APP他們覺得他們不想要的話他們就可以馬上下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7529.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7552.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
下令大概一個小時之內就可以封閉把它封起來但是我們臺灣是一個自由民主法治的國家我們做任何事情並不是能由行政部門下一個命令就可以馬上做了我們這個必須要立法然後有一些譬如說它是不是假訊息是不是有那個詐欺等等最後的判斷還是必須由司法單位來判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7553.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7558.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
因為我看根據巡視局下詐騙的案件的統計2023年其實民眾被詐騙金額有高達88.78億其實已經創上史上新高了那這樣科技上面的發展近年來台灣的詐騙也是引發民怨 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7570.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7571.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
然後詐騙集團也越來越猖獗然後賴慶德總統在今年的8月20號出席2024年全面主角詐騙論壇中強調了打詐勢同作戰不成功絕不罷休我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7586.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7603.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
就是說那訴發部還有在2022年即7月成立的打詐國家隊到現在其中刑事警察局轄下的成立的打擊詐及犯罪中心擔任的國家隊的幕僚那訴發部似乎是不是這樣迴避了打詐的責任呢我們非常積極主動在做打詐的工作那目前的詐騙是透過大部分都是透過網路進行嗎那請問網路平台是不是有訴發部這邊來管理的呢是 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7616.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7643.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
那政府透過跨部會來合作積極的打詐但組織了打詐國家隊但是成果好像我覺得沒有大家想像的那麼理想而且詐騙的集團還是非常的猖獗那今年8月TPOC台灣的議題的研究中心根據輿情資料庫分析針對政府打詐國家隊的各部門在打詐的聲量統計其中負聲量最高也最雇人員的部會你們知道是哪個部會嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7645.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7646.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
請委員直接說吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7647.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7651.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
那就是你們的數位發展部啊所以現在你們的附身量已經高達了1.2萬則而且網路好感度只有0.35那我想請問一下那像現在詐騙集團越來越多而且又盜用了照片和資料而且又跟上潮流這樣也用AI深偽的合成照片和影片在社群中販賣還有廣發各種金融的產品還有投資的訊息那政府的效率還比不上詐騙集團 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7677.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7697.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
詐騙集團比你們的部會都還要更了解科技和潮流那抓詐騙的是警政署、調查局、國安局那請問疏發部的功能是在哪裡呢根據委員報告基本上現在的網路詐騙事實上它也是一條產業鏈他們的做法就是第一步這些詐騙集團會在Facebook或在Google |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7698.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7719.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
上面這種公開的社群平台他們放一些廣告或者是一些假訊息想辦法把這些民眾騙到LINE的一個那個就是私人空間裡面就是一個群組裡面這是一個封閉的空間然後他在裡面呢他就是如果說一般民眾進去的話看到裡面可能有200個人然後每一個人都在聊說他賺了多少錢等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7720.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7749.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
但其中199個人是詐騙集團的成員只有那個民眾進去以後會被招到詐騙然後所有接下來他甚至再來呢就是那個詐騙集團會把這些民眾呢就是騙到一個一對一的私聊而且通常是像是Signal還有Telegram這種就是加密的一對一的私聊空間他們的目的就是為了躲避政府的監管然後即使事後發生了詐騙的那個事情的話我們的檢調單位也沒辦法進去看他那些加密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7749.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7751.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
在後半段事實上就是我們內政部警政署他們在做的事情還有金管會他們在阻斷金流 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7768.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7793.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
那我們訴發部在做的事情呢就是想辦法阻止這些詐騙集團把這些民眾騙到這個小房間裡面所謂的小房間裡面就是這些賴的群組裡面因為一旦被騙進去以後我們政府能做的事情就很少所以我們現在在這個打架團隊裡面整個政府打架團隊裡面我們訴發部跟內政部以及金管會的這個分工基本上是這樣子我們在前面盡量的防堵 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7794.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7806.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
那這個我們也必須講就是說我們訴發部事實上非常努力那事實上我們在訴發部在那個我們就是建立一套那個系統那我們在9月30號到10月14號當中我們已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7812.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7819.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
抱歉是到11月8號我們通報了我們接受了那個民眾48648件的通報那其中15000多件我們已經通知那個Facebook、Google還有Line請他們下架15000多件的這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7829.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7847.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
可疑的這種詐騙的廣告或者訊息如果說我們不做這件事情的話那這15000多則的詐騙訊息或者廣告一定會騙更多的民眾進入這個小房間所以我們做這個事情就是說很多的民眾沒有感覺到因為這個事情這個詐騙後來就沒有發生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7849.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7871.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
沒有發聲並不表示我們沒有做事我們事實上我們數法部的同仁是非常努力在做這件事情的以上跟委員報告 謝謝因為我看數法部一年其實耗費納稅人211億根據委員報告我們現在的預算明年提報的預算是86.6億然後再加上前專預算明年雖然會退場但是有47.6億所以我們總共的預算應該是134.2億 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7875.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7875.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
我們下面請陳冠廷委員發言局長因為時間有限請您這邊控制好 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7899.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7899.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
國安局局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7916.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
7916.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
7930.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
7958.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
我們結束質詢之後馬上就有國安局的同仁來跟我們報告最新的狀況這點首先我必須要非常的要讚可然後並且謝謝國安局的同仁第二點國安的這個安全許可這個東西我們已經講了很久了我一直不斷的重複這件事情因為國安的許可是必須要伴隨著權利、責任、義務跟限制也就是說我知道很多事情不代表說我很厲害而是說我怎麼樣利用這些情報那作為國會議員我們是憲法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
7960.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
7969.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
國會議員我們先把下的話當然我們有一定的揭密的層級包含總統副總統跟這些國會議員都應該有也必須有但是我們現在上次提到的是什麼提到說國會幕僚其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
7972.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
7993.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
這個局長你上次提到說包含歐洲有的時候是百分之百的都是機密預算那這是沒有錯的我沒有說這是錯的但是我們回到我們上次講的同樣的一個問題就是說那是誰在核可在審查他們是把百分之百的機密預算提出去就百分之百就經過這樣子來去核可那預算都不用監督嗎當然是需要監督的所以在國會他們會有國會的幕僚長幕僚長必須 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
7995.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8017.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
他們的老闆國會議員上次我們只是外交部的參訪團國會議員助理參訪團這些幕僚黨都必須要接到這個最高有些時候是機密或者是最高機密的合格才能夠進去審查去這個機制那我必須再強調從現在開始我們必須要有一個局處來負責全部的安全合格就像說我們立法院沒有這樣子相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8019.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8045.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
這一個局處來去做這個安全核可跟背景核可那在美國的話95%是由他們的這個DCSA就是國防部的反情報這個安全局來去做背景核可那現在到底是由國防部做主要的這個查核還是由國安局做這個查核還是由調查局做這個查核我只問這個問題先請局長回應之後就請副局長回你認為哪一個人可以開始扮演這樣子的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8045.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8067.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
因為一般來講 國安局大概只負責我們局裡面相關的一個查核那所以像委員所提到的可能就我的理解應該是各單位還是要有自己的一個查核的機制那再來是立法院這邊到底對於這個規範的依據是什麼我們可以慢慢 我會希望跟這個之後再請那個局長我們一起來思考一下這個立法的這個做法那我最後再補充一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8068.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8091.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
美國大概主要就是我剛剛講的這個國防部來去負責95%的背景核可因為其他包含我們國科會他們怎麼會有自己做背景查核的這個局處沒有辦法嘛所以95%是由一個局處來做統整那其他法定聯邦的21個其他的局處包含FBI等等可能會有自己的查核方式因為它本身就是情治單位所以這個部分我們來去思考我們先請副局長來好不好謝謝車位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8094.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8101.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
時間先暫停一下趁蔡局長離開會場的空檔我做一個宣告待會馬文君委員執行完畢後休息5分鐘謝謝請繼續 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8109.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8130.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
謝謝主席 委員好副局長 那我們剛才提到的 這一個部分就你所知 國安局內部也好 或者是其他情治單位也好他們做背景合可的 主要的合可的東西是什麼他的犯罪紀錄還是什麼各位報告 就本局 本局其實我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8132.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8142.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
同仁進來以後我們會做安全查核那主要是機密等級的話其實我們是按照機密等級的規定來進行身份的核可 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8143.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8144.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
我們基本上會接不同的機密,譬如密等、機密等,我們會有不同的查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8163.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8178.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
不是那個我懂你的意思但是我現在問的問題是安全核可的背景查核你們查詢他的背景資訊裡面的背景是針對哪幾個種類來去做查核嗎這個部分我是不是請我們業管的主管來說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8180.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8208.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
跟委員報告那有關我們查核的部分那基本上我們有一個就是說大概有一個SOP包括他的一個塑形也好或者是塑形可能就包括就是家裡這一部分那另外一個就是說我們裡面也會進來的話也會做一個視訊那視訊我們有特定的單位特定單位會針對他的一個我們基本上不好意思怎麼稱呼 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8209.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8230.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
你的職銜是?報告委員,我是我們國內處處長。謝謝處長,適性跟背景查核,在我們的友邦,包含美國,它是兩個不同的。你適不適任這個職位,跟你的背景是不同的。你剛才把它混為一談,那沒有關係,我為什麼要講這些事情不是要刁難大家,而是希望說, |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8231.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8255.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
徹徹底底的全面檢討從國安局開始甚至由國安局來未來可能要做其他跨局處的這種背景審核因為這個東西已經不斷的被各個智庫一直在強調說我國的這個洩密揭秘的這種令亂混亂的機制這是確實存在的所以我們現在要把它建立起來那我剛才提到這個原因是說你們現在講了半天最多就是講有沒有犯罪你肅刑嘛你怎麼奠定一個人肅刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8256.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8256.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
犯罪記錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8287.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8307.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
我過去的經驗告訴我說這些都沒有放在他考核裡面啊包含他的心理狀況包含他有沒有藥物和物質的濫用這其實就是我現在講的不是國防部的這些五官喔包含文職人員喔文職人員其實他我們不是機密的掌握而已包含政策戰略的方向的掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8308.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8331.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
像我們我現在是國會議員但過去我是文職人員的話我們是參與政策擬定的幕僚所以我們隨時隨地都有可能被影響如果說我們的評判指南裡面沒有包含我剛才講的這些有沒有受到外國的影響有沒有外國的偏好他的出境紀錄是以哪一個國家為準每一個風險都必須納入指南的評估裡面才行嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8331.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8347.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
我現在講的這個是包括我們國會幕僚包括我們未來所有的美國式聯邦機構包括我們說的部會的機構每一個安全人員現在開始都必須要有安全核可的最基本的建制要出來而且這個安全核可的建制必須能夠跨部會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8349.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8367.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
也就是說報案美國聯邦他們是用SF86的一個通用表格把他們所有的揭密的這個層級的因應的揭密層級跟他們所需要填寫的這些資料他是有一個通用性嗎?我們現在沒有通用性嘛所以我們才會出現來我們來顯示一下最近幾次泄密的這些狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8368.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8382.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
包含承包商也好包含海軍包含國防部內部的人員也好包含法務部、連政署派駐國防部的人員也好你揭秘成績是什麼我問國防部部長問來問去大家都沒有一個這個由這個連政署來回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8384.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8402.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
你根本就沒有一個統一可以去做安全合格層級的這個制定的話你從什麼時候開始講都太晚我真的是希望說由處長或者是我們的副局長跟局長來討論一下到底是由誰要建立一個最基本的架構我剛才提到的是國防部 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8403.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8419.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
也可以是國安局那至少美國他是有經過一連串的變化他過去是從國家背景調查局就是歐巴馬總統時代成立的新的一個局處然後來去再合併到國防部的反情報安全局有做法擺在那邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8420.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8445.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
可以學習也可以去建立一個比較符合台灣現狀的這個機制但是不能不做這個已經是我相信你們也很清楚嘛從國防部到國安局到各個的情勢單位一定有被很多我們的盟邦的友人講說這就是問題嘛這就是問題所在所以為什麼沒有辦法獲得最新的設備的其中一個原因我們沒有辦法確保我們的機密不會被流失嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8447.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8477.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
國會議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8477.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8498.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
國會也可以是一個破口但國會不可以是破口因為國會本來就有憲法賦予的義務要去來監督你們嘛所以包含我國會議員以外的這些幕僚議員必須要有一個機制來去做審核當這些人經過審核的時候你就不可以懷疑我們就不可以懷疑這些人是破口因為他們已經經過安全審核了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8499.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8499.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
必須要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8523.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8539.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
你需要知道的時候才知道比方說我需不需要知道某些機密預算的配置我需要知道但我需要機密裡面的那個細節嗎比方說這個我們的這個空軍的飛機上面的塗料是哪一個品牌用什麼樣的化學質地我不需要知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8540.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8559.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
你必須配合need to know跟你的安全核可搭配才是我們所謂的這個揭秘的層級我們現在只是過過場過個樣子過去是這樣現在也是這樣嘛那今天開始我們就可以做一個全面的一個革新嘛那但是國安局可能要扮演這樣的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8559.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8575.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
因為我再次強調我問其他部門的時候說這個其他部門我們應該有內部他們自己的人士來去做審查沒有辦法做審查我舉例吧這個國科會你要去怎麼做給人家做背景審查當然是由全責機關把這樣的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8579.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8592.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
韓請國安局或相關的國安單位可以是調查局可以是國安局這個我們要一起思考清楚來去做背景的安全核可因為未來不是只有國防部才會揭秘不是只有外交部才會揭秘國科會會不會揭秘 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8593.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8618.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
國會也會啊我們過去的這個科技部會不會揭秘數位部會不會揭秘他們接觸到的密採是越來越高但是我們用過去的這種方式來去對待他們的話那對被懷疑的人是不公平的但是卻因為有這樣子沒有這樣子的機制來說的話那這個狀況還是會一再的出現嗎所以我就從海軍開始到承包商到什麼全部都是一樣現在就是還是很亂承包商有需要安全核可嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8620.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8635.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
其實很多國家都需要耶那你覺得我們現在有沒有人很多大啦啦的開著工程車進入營區的當然都要檢查一下身份證什麼的那其實你不知道他的這個合格的層級到哪裡那我們比方說在美國的國會他們有安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8635.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8654.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
外交的國防相關的安全室這個安全室裡面是可以阻斷所有這個竊聽的儀器的我們國會有嗎?沒有嗎?也是需要你們勤制單位來協助建制啊放我們所有的這些所謂的機密報告其實大家摸著良心有機密嗎?有機敏性嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8655.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8678.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
其實知道大概是都沒有啦那你機密你要給人家畫機密最高機密是因應假設這個資訊流出來對這個局處或者這個國家的危害來去判的不是說我覺得這個機密就這個機密我今天不想回答某位國會議員的質詢所以我就說這個東西很機密其實不是這樣子的就是我們要有一定的做法那 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8679.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8708.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
我昨天也在講以前這個上個禮拜也在跟局長在討論就是說要建立這個機制的時候是什麼時候是最好的時機答案是10年前但如果你10年前沒有辦法做的話那最好的方式就是現在做謝謝謝謝副局長報告委員我可不可以我今天要做一個說明那有關機密核整的部分事實上就國安局來講我們內部所以我剛剛講的部分那包括剛剛委員所提到的包括有關跟外國接觸的部分包括心理包括藥物使用的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8708.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8732.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
我知道國安局都有所以我剛剛講的是什麼文職人員包含國安會我們在講到的是包含我們各個不同的部門的介面層級那過去我們每一個包含外交部、內政部、數位部他其實做背景沒有在做這個嘛就是因為他們沒有這個編列這個預算沒有這個部門去做嘛那我講美國的外交部有外交安全局啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8733.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8753.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
美國的國務院下面有外交安全局再去做這個的身份的核可嗎?我們外交部這不是你的夜管棒我們就不說了但是我們的各個部門有嗎?數位部有嗎?對不對?國科會可能有可能沒有這個我們要去查嘛但是就是你現在科技是我們的核心嘛我甚至講財政部是不是也是一個很重要的一個部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8754.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8770.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
其實這些我們都一起來思考好不好那這個我們共同來研究謝謝我副局長我是真的是可能跟局長來討論一下啦好不好就是做一個你們有開跨部會議的時候好不好做一個表率來去跟大家一起來不然就是整天 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8771.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8797.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
沒有相關的機制我是覺得很可惜啦已經有點晚了已經被人家講到這樣子每次都說我們國家的機密保守的狀況不好你看我們才幾個月我商量到現在9個月已經多少次了然後像這個啊你看陸戰66旅工程用朝夷一國這個甚至沒有安全核可甚至連身份證都沒有拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8799.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8809.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
你懂我意思嗎 這個不太對啦好不好謝謝陳冠廷委員副局長請回接下來我們請馬文君委員上台質詢謝主席麻煩請國安局還有速發部還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8830.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8831.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
警政署副局長我想請教一下就是在目前因為我們今天討論的是AI技術在資安還有深偽影片、錯假訊息等等其實我們從最近不管是國內外的政治也好或者很多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8858.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8862.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
我們像上個月24號美國白宮針對人工智慧發表首份的國安備忘錄他要求包括五角大廈還有情報體系要強化運用AI的技術確保在相關領域可以維持跟對手之間的優勢 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8884.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
8912.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
那所謂對手大概很大的一部分大概就是中國大陸嘛那就這個部分因為他們在這一部分可能也進展非常快速AI也好量子技術也好不過美國同時也明確的禁止政府機構使用該技術來進行不符民主價值的行為也就是政府部門不得使用AI技術對美國人民的自由言論進行監控相對的其實任何國家要 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
8914.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
8915.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
政府跟國安部門有沒有類似向美國白宮發表的這樣子國安備忘錄規範政府使用AI技術的框架?目前有沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
8934.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
8954.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
跟委員報告,因為AI的進步太快,所以它延伸的便利同時也會帶來很多的威脅所以剛委員提到美國,除了美國以外,歐盟他也在今年提出了人工智慧法案來框定怎麼樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
8956.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
8976.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
兼顧到AI使用同時,能兼顧到它不要無用去控。我們國家目前是有國科會,他有在草擬一個人工智慧的一個基本法,那這個部分已經我們政府機關已經討論了很多次,應該年底前應該會交互行政院來做討論。 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
8978.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
8994.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
本局也有參與這個人工智慧基本法的一個討論也提供相關的意見那這個目的是兼顧鼓勵創新還有兼顧人民的權益委員剛剛考量了在人工智慧基本法案裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
8995.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9014.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
有明確的要求那就是要兼顧到既有我們的人民的一個人權跟基民資訊的維護還有不能夠濫用它這個是在基本法已經有框定對基本法因為我想那個本來就是基本的就是說就是像美國歐盟 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9015.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9015.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
現在進度簡單說明就好進度就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9040.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9063.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
報告委員那個進度的部分我們已經送到行政院了所以行政院在這邊會再做跨部會整體的一個討論所以目前行政院跟所屬機關使用生成式AI參考指引的這個部分嗎對不對不是是AI基本法基本法對可是它內容針對的部分是只有政府部門還是包含比如說工商業界還有科技界 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9066.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9080.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
報告委員,它等於是要highlight國家推動AI的整體的這個政策的方針那主要是先規範政府的一些相關的施政對,因為你現在只有對政府嘛,可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9080.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9085.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
現在它日新月異然後它技術不斷地在進步的當下我們到年底才可以出來可是你到年底之前你推出的還只是政府的部分我們剛剛提到的你包括像工商界包括科技界包括很多運用在人民的身上因為現在大家看到的而且最在乎的除了剛剛這些以外因為像我們的報告都集中在對應像境外組織還有科技的運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9109.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9113.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
可是資安的錯假訊息他人民感受最強烈的就是詐騙案那目前為止像包括美國股神巴菲特他在5月份對股東股東會對人工智慧也發出警語他也說這個騙局會比以往都更有說服力去進行所謂的欺詐那社群媒體他所 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9132.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9133.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
我們目前對於詐騙這樣的效果,您覺得好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9158.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9181.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
跟委員報告目前我們在相關社群媒體有關於可能涉及詐騙的這些效果好不好我們現在今年度我們已經通報這相關的這公司下架了11萬多則的一個這些可能涉及詐騙的一個廣告所以這部分我們在跟相關公司的聯繫上效果是算不錯的當然還有一些還要帶 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9182.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9187.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
在努力進步的地方因為確實相關的報告我們效果不錯如果就我們說效果不錯可是我們從2019年兩萬三千多件到現在2023年已經暴增到超過三萬五千件如果是今年其實它的那個成長的速度更高它甚至招詐的損失去年就是88.7億這個還是有報案的數據那有很多如果比較小額的或者大家沒有報案的其實多不勝數 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9211.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9214.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
所以如果說像這樣一直增加的情況之下我們還認為說我們效果不錯那不錯在哪裡他為什麼還是會一直增加然後他問題會出現在哪裡我們今天可能沒有辦法得到確切的答案在警政署上面其實我覺得可能也有很多自愛難行的地方對於基層的員警現在常常必須要舉著牌子到所有辦理活動的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9235.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9235.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
請教副局長我們當時在防疫的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9261.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9289.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
我們臺灣號稱我們的防疫做得非常不錯那原因是什麼就我們副局長您的分析防疫為什麼做得不錯就我們防疫來講我覺得那個我們政府在邊境的控管還有相關的一個這個機制通報機制跟應酬機制方面來講有做很多的努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9291.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9295.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
所以當那個會影響到而且是看不見的那種病毒細菌其實我們用很多的方式讓我們在防疫的作為上面其實是有效的就是在我們的整個防疫的措施上面其實是有效的那有很重要的一點其實我們每天每個時候都不斷不斷的在提醒民眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9313.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9316.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
說我們這個防疫應該怎麼做你的口罩應該怎麼戴你應該要做什麼樣什麼樣的一個預防措施或怎麼樣的防範其實做了非常的多其中有很多其實也是透過媒體或者各方面下去做傳播我像我剛剛講的我們所有的警察同仁他都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9334.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9334.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9365.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9381.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
說法部因為在很多的民眾心裡或者包括像檢察官他們認為說我們是三大戰犯之一就是說我們對於台灣的詐騙案沒有辦法有效的防治或者說去做更有效的一個宣傳 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9382.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9388.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
或者在我們的技術上面沒有辦法去做一些相關的預防或制止那訴發部像這樣子你要怎麼樣做更多的宣傳我剛剛有講的防疫因為你讓每個人都知道我應該要怎麼做然後我應該什麼不能做如果你把很多的錢要拿出去出國還不如用在很多在宣傳上面這部分訴發部的看法怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9407.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9428.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
是 非常感謝那個委員那個基本上我認為說臺灣之前在防疫之所以做得特別好就是因為臺灣的政府跟民間一起合作面對這個狀況所謂的政府呢包含行政部門也包含立法部門然後在行政部門當然也要分工然後在那個打砸議題這件事情上面的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9429.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9457.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
你告訴我們怎麼做就好那我跟委員報告一下基本上現在的詐騙它也是一個產業鏈它這個做法是這樣子就是說詐騙集團會先在Facebook或者是Google這種公開的社群平台上它會放一個廣告把那個民眾騙到Line的那個視頻空間裡面然後發布負責的事情就是在前端我們盡量避免讓民眾被騙到這個小房間Line的小房間裡面去進行詐騙的工作那至於那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9458.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9471.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
後面的詐騙發生以後那就是警政署還有那個金管會他們要做的事情所以我們整個政府應該是一個團隊我們一起合作來面對這個事情那你簡單的告訴我們因為你不管是前段後段現在不管哪一段反正就是都是破口啦所以現在就是越來越嚴重嘛我們要知道的是政府的具體作為我剛剛已經建議如果速發部有這麼高額的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9486.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9489.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
是不是你應該提醒隨時24小時你不管從哪一個管道不管從社群網站也好或者從媒體也好或者從其他的可以發聲的管道也好其實盡量讓人民知道說現在有什麼樣的我用什麼樣的詐騙手法我今天有什麼樣因為至少每天提醒人家就會有所警惕你今天不是啊你等到後面你要去抓要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9513.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9530.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
去預防什麼其實你大概目前為止你們是做不到的而且是做得不好所以民眾才會有感而且會對政府不信任所以就這個部分速發部可以做到什麼簡單說就好了就是就是像你在宣傳上面你們可以配合做到什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9531.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9556.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
我們可以做到的事情一個當然就是像委員所講的加強宣導另外我們就是利用那個網路的機制接受民眾的報案民眾的報案以後我們就趕快的去那個分報案以後通常都來不及了不是我講的是說那個前面廣告的部分這就是我前面講的就是分工的部分我們負責的是前端那這個地方只是偽冒比如說就是所謂的impersonation就是仿冒名人的這個部分然後我們就會比如說如果有人仿冒那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9557.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9558.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
你沒有聽清楚我講的話如果你認為他會偽冒謝金河你認為他會偽冒很多很多這些可能相關的金融代表性的人物或者 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9579.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9587.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
像一些代表性今天大家很多都講到高嘉瑜委員嘛就是說大家如果你已經知道他們會假冒這些你應該不斷不斷的提醒不是當你發生的時候你去告訴謝金河那已經被騙一堆啦你應該要站在更前面速發部不要編了錢然後你做的事情是都是在後端的 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9600.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9606.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
反而跟其他的單位沒有什麼不同所以在這裡今天時間的關係就這個部分我覺得對於詐騙案人民才是有感的我們甚至對於我們自己所有的國人被騙到國外我們無能為力我再次強調我們無能為力 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9617.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9620.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
像這樣被騙到緬甸或其他地方這也都是詐騙它有不斷不斷的一直在發生而且手段越來越殘忍然後他要的金額也很多他騙去以後他大概就是索一些他的贖金 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9635.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9650.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
有沒有讓他回來我們不曉得這個部分請國安單位也持續掌握還有我們警政署好不好那因為今天大概可能也沒有一個具體的一個結論跟說法就這個部分訴發部或者我們警政署可以有什麼樣積極的作為再提供給我們更詳細的一個具體的一個書面資料請國安局一定要掌握這個部分這個這個比其他的可能危害我們國家或者人民的信心更重 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9666.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9669.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
謝委員謝謝馬文君委員那先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
10031.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
10036.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
那繼續開會接下來我們請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席我請國安局張副局長還有我們數發部次長調查局副局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
10065.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
10069.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
好大家好辛苦了先來看一個影片沒有聲音好等一下不好意思要重開 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
10090.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
10091.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
其實這個影片非常清楚的就是這個影中人 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
10124.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
10134.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
只是畫面拉大仔細看男子嘴形和說話速度不一致臉部嘴角過於平整像是後製剪接用來這段影片卻是詐騙集團利用AI技術製作假影 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
10135.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
10152.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
好那這影片其實呢也是利用AI來製作而主要的就是來做詐騙那今天當然我們很關心的也就是這個AI影片它對國安的一些威脅可是事實上跟人民現在最有感的就是來自於這些的詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
10154.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10166.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
他把這些財經名人他是真的但是他把它製作成就是按照他的這個也許他只是一個什麼說明然後變成是一個詐騙的工具我們也可以看到事實上我們今年以來我們一直在打詐打詐雖然打詐司法上路但是光是投資的詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10181.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10202.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
我們每一個月10月跟9月都超過4000件這是每個月都在增加另外呢光是台北市投資詐騙就被騙走15億一個月台北市一個月投資詐騙就有15億之多所以像這樣的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10204.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10211.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
那些恐怕對他們當事人來講當然會覺得很困擾也很生氣可是對民眾來講他就是直接的是他的金錢的損失所以我想請問哪一位長官可以回覆我一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10228.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10235.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
像這樣的AI假影片的詐騙到底有沒有辦法防堵?我們現在有些什麼樣的策略? |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10237.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10257.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
委員好,我想我先回答,這是管局,那等一下如果相關的那個單位也可以補充來說明,那針對這種AI的技術的演進,它生成這種深偽的影片,這應該已經是趨勢了,這個沒有辦法阻擋,所以重點是… 氾濫,它不是趨勢,氾濫 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10258.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10279.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
他已經是一個氾濫但是重點就是我們如何應處那事實上這個假影片也好或者是偵訊也好那我們政府之間已經有成立一個機制了包括本局是負責這種偵訊的一個情報的掌搜如果涉及國安跟社安 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10280.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10300.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
這部分我們會立刻的掌搜以後透由我們在之前跟政府相關部門成立的一個機制去做辯委、溯源、處理那經由相關的單位來做事實的澄清如果涉及到違法的話那就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10301.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10326.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
後由我們的警察司法機關去請這個平台業者能夠下架那所以機制是有的現在是怎麼快速的應酬因為這個數量可能會越來越多現在你們快速你們有沒有定一個時間比如說你們必須在多久時間只要有人去通報檢舉你們必須在多少時間之內要把它檢舉掉跟我們報告這個部分重點還是在我們一方面機制有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10326.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10346.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
另外一方面我們要有相關的一個技術的引入因為用AI速度太快所以我們在我們報告裡面有提到我們會引用最新的技術不斷的去引用最新的技術那技術只有國安局有嗎?光只有你們有些來不及的我們相關的警察機關他們目前也有建立這樣的能量跟機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10348.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10348.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
委員好 跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10363.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10379.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
在調查局的部分我們是受理案件的部分當有這個案件成立、立案之後我們局裡面會先發動分析鑑識我知道法務部調查局是有鑑識的海刑事局也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10380.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10404.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
對,所以我們和刑事局其實是有一個共通的使用兩種工具然後基本上我們的同仁會在open source裡面先去做一些應用然後再使用鑑識工具去判別那理論上我們最快可以在至少在兩個小時內我們就可以把這個鑑識的成果先去做出來兩個小時就可以鑑識成果對不對就可以初步判定它是不是真的還假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10405.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10427.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
其實過去有好幾個政治人物的影片,到現在都沒有見識結果,所以不要變成一個只是用政治解決。好,我想問一下速發部,前兩天發生一個事情,就是Meta亂槍打鳥,該下架的沒下架,不該下架人家正版的正牌的下架,然後最離譜的連我們證交所的粉專都被人家下架,請問為什麼? |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10428.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10430.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
發生什麼事情?這太扯了吧? |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10430.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10445.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
非常感謝委員給我這個機會說明對 趕快說明這個事情發生以後呢我們事實上當下我們也不知道到底發生了什麼事情因為我們速發布在那段時間你到下午都不知道發生什麼事後來知道了 那我先委員請聽我說 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10449.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10477.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
那我們不管怎樣我們就是馬上那個跟臉書聯絡然後幫那些被那個下架的那些那個財經粉讓他恢復那個上架後來據我們的了解就是說是那個內政部警政署他們在通報一批那個疑似那個詐騙網站的時候結果Facebook他的海外的執行單位因為他的溝通發生問題結果他們把那些 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10478.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10481.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
這問題是內政部警政署的問題嗎?主席給我一點時間,內政部警政署今天副局長在,是你們出包嗎?蘇巴布現在把鍋丟到你這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10496.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10499.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
並不是警政署、刑事警察局這邊的問題而是臉書他們內部有個篩選機制在聯繫作業的部分他們發生這個問題他怎麼會篩到正版的呢?這個黑名單應該是我們送上去的嘛我們送給業者請他要趕快下架為什麼一些正版的包括我們證交所 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10518.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10518.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
託備下架 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10531.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10552.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
是真實的這部分我們有提供個白名單給他們可是他們內部在篩選機制的時候所以我們把白名單給刪掉了他們把白名單給下架他們聯繫上可能發生了一些問題所以是Meta的問題是是他們的海外問題是他們海外那邊的問題所以我們立刻跟他們反映之後他當天晚上就把這些屬於真實的網站都把它做恢復 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10553.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10580.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
因為我不想佔用下面委員時間那拜託請書發部請我們的警政署可不可以有一個機制我們現在是該下架的沒有下架他都活得好好的然後呢這些正版的包含我們官方的政教所算官方的這個網站都被下架這真的是很奇怪的一件事情可不可以把這個機制你們再把它弄得更清楚一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10582.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10582.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
王洪維委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10612.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10638.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
接下來我們請賴司保委員上台質詢。謝謝主席。幾個先進。有請國安局的張副局長、書發部的林次長、法務部調查局的吳副局長、警政署的林副局長。好不好一起,七個長官一起。委員好。 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10642.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10670.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
來我們看一下我看了一些資料不知道國安局長官可不可以回答或者調查局的怎麼樣因應頻繁的AI資安攻擊過去半年內台灣每個禮拜遭受2934的網路攻擊是全球平均被攻擊的2.7倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10673.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10682.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
我們是AI之島結果變成是被攻擊之島這個國安局長要不要先講一下我們KPI是什麼這個怎麼因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10685.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10708.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
謝謝委員 這個問題確實是非常重要跟嚴峻那尤其AI的AI尤其生成室出來以後他很容易製造出一些仿真的釣魚郵件還有他很容易去歸納去分析系統防禦的漏洞所以這個攻擊的太陽會越來越多然後速度會越來越快 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10709.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10730.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
所以這個部分為什麼台灣為什麼大家對台灣這麼有興趣為什麼呢為什麼這個樣子我想這個應該是一個普遍的現象普遍喔所以全世界也喜歡攻擊台灣台灣因為我們有目前因為國防委員會大所以被攻擊 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10732.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10738.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
跟委員報告那我想這個是一個趨勢所以剛提的趨勢你怎麼講趨勢呢這個而且我們活該被攻擊怎麼這樣子講呢趨勢現在攻擊台灣是趨勢你講對還講不對我講的是AI |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10749.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10763.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
AI生成的攻擊會是一個趨勢那如何防範其實有幾個部分你不要給我時間有限你不要給我講架構書的你怎麼做啦你們國安局有沒有針對這個事情立一個專案討論還是立一個什麼因應小組什麼專門針對這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10769.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10784.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
我們局裡在幾年前我們都成立了AI小組去蜜鑄這個AI的技術我們不只用坊間的怎麼會是成立幾年了這個怎麼會越被攻擊越來越多怎麼會怎麼樣怎麼會一塌糊塗沒辦法攔住 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
10788.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
10798.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
法務委員,供給發息我們不可控,可是我們可以有效的防禦,這是我們可以做的。越防禦越多啊,來來來,請教蘇華部的市長、林市長,這個現象怎麼樣避免啊,怎麼會我們這麼慘啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
10806.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
10828.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
是先跟委員報告我們台灣受到很多的資安攻擊這的確是事實因為我們都知道美中現在已經進入第二次冷戰的那個態勢然後在那個Geopolitics上面我們台灣是在所謂的最前線所以會有一些境外不友善國家他們的那些平常有時候我覺得他們都是在練兵哪些國家是哪些國家的攻擊我們最有興趣哪幾個國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
10830.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
10854.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
當然就是中國大陸還有北韓還有俄羅斯其實俄羅斯非常多俄羅斯會不會因為我們過去罵俄羅斯所以更多會不會有可能會是但是他們通常做這個攻擊他們就是為了彰顯一些政治的訴求所以我們對這種他們的政治訴求我們也不想要讓他們炒熱新聞我們就做好我們的防禦 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
10856.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
10863.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
對,也不是不要理他,我們要做成事前事終以及事後的防禦,事前,謝謝來來來,我們看一下,國安局有精進的防... |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
10884.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
10903.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
報告委員,我們沒有這個機器狗,不過我們會關注AI在這個運用上你現在機器狗現在已經加入川普的一個海服裝員的巡邏了,已經加入了我們會密註,事實上我們一直有在密註AI它運用在軍事或其他的國安威脅的用途,這個情訊我們一直在掌說我唸你不要岔題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
10906.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
10925.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
國安局有沒有針對機器狗現在已經加入了這個一些的一個一些攻擊做一些防禦的措施有沒有機器狗這部分假如老共這是老共的老共如果弄機器狗來攻擊台灣我們有沒有一些因應的 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
10928.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
10953.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
這個無人載具我們看到我們其實掌握到就是中國大陸那邊針對無人載具不僅機器狗無人機無人的潛航器無人艇發展都非常的快速結合他們AI的投資和投入這個我們相信這是未來我們非常持續要掌搜關注的議題那這個議題我們掌搜到以後我們會提供給相關單位來做參數 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
10955.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
10975.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
我們有沒有一套的一個因應的整個的做法有沒有還是還沒有還是在developing這個部分因為如果涉及軍事的話會有國防部他們會去做一些評估跟應處那對本局來講會掌收這種趨勢跟威脅來提供相關單位來應處這個什麼時候可以出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
10978.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
10979.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
最後一個各單位聽好 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11008.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11025.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
刑事警察局採購了深偽影像檢測平台花1000多萬法務部調查局這裡花了870萬高雄市刑事警察大隊花了44萬數位部前瞻計劃研發多媒體監視平台1300萬零零總總 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11031.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11058.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
選舉期間警政署調查局還成立了AI深層深度偽造假訊息處理中心我實際有些我就請教國安局或者是數法部這裡你們有沒有一個整合單位啊就是對於AI這個深偽這部分專門成立一個小組把它整合一下你看各單位都在都在花錢啊都在花錢有沒有這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11059.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11083.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
跟委員報告,事實上深偽這是徵訊根的一個延伸,是手段的不同也就是說假訊息這個呈現的方式有文字、有語音、現在有影像越做越仿真,加了AI技術以後事實上本局跟我們相關政府機關和我們警政署幾個司法警察調查局 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11084.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11109.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
已經成立一個這種假訊息的防制的一個機制平臺所以針對這個AI在這樣的新的一個現象也在這個平臺我們會有討論透過這個剛剛看到這幾個部分有些是我們共同討論出來因為AI的發展太快速我們必須要有這些高新的一個AI技術設備我們才有辦法去因應這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11111.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11140.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
虛假訊息的一個應酬就是說你們現在已經有一個整合的是你們整合是吧?國安局整合還是數法部?我們是掌搜是情報體系去掌搜這個訊息那另外我們應酬是有政府體系那我們這個數法部有沒有接受你的指揮有沒有?這部分數法部是應酬的一環那我們是掌搜的一環所以但是兩個是最後一個問題大家很關心的 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11141.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11162.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
就是蔡英文前總統她被這個升委之後一天就找到IP了其他人都找不到啊幾個月都找不到啊包括鄭文燦的找不到包括這個其他我們的立委立委們這個弄了老半天找不到就是外界質疑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11163.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11179.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
你們在追這個事情的時候還大笑眼淚還看背後是誰受害哎呀這個蔡總統這個這個亮度很夠啊馬上一天你看拜託你們也很有能力啊其他人搞一個月都搞不到我這個東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11180.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11201.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
副局長要不要解釋一下發委員我們在處理這個訊息的過程有一套機制一套程序影響到國家安全或社會安寧這種影響擴大快速的話我們會優先來處理所以總統優先其他不優先發委員不是這樣就是說我們看到這樣的這個議題跟現象外界高度質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11202.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11211.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
就是看人在辦案啦不是因為身份啦是看他影響國安跟涉案的程度還有發生的現象立委是沒有涉國安都沒關係每天來現在立委就有被我們那個是有分級啦是一般一般民眾還是影響國安是阿沒有錯阿所以總統比較短時間快速阿立委就慢慢來阿立委不重要就這樣啊大小就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11228.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11230.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
接下來我們請侯孟楷委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11266 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11293.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
主席謝謝麻煩我們請國安局副局長然後那個速發部次長以及內政部警政署我們刑事局副局長委員好來我先請教一下我們次長那個速發部次長跟我們警政署是剛剛有委員在講也是一樣上個禮拜這個臉書粉專被吳玉璟下架我先釐清第一速發部說這不是速發部的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11295.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11319.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
那警政署講是說我們有黑名單跟白名單提供了白名單給臉書結果臉書內部溝通問題造成把白名單下架是不是那我先請教一下白名單、黑名單這照理講臉書他是上市公司、商業公司啊還需要我們警政署來幫他確認是說哪一個粉專是真的哪一個粉專是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11320.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11346.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
我們警政署怎麼那麼貼心啊因為這些假冒名人的粉專這些廣告非常的多那為了便利啊這Meta公司我們希望他能夠加強內部的一個神和所以我們也提供白名單如果有發現不是這些我們所提供白名單我們希望他們能夠主動神和下架但目前比較多的是我們發現這可能是我們提供多少白名單給他我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11349.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11374.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
一批的白名單,詳細數字我這邊沒有,抱歉就從過去到現在一直收集的名單,是不是?我們會去做確認,這段時間都有持續再去做確認這些屬於真實的這些名單那我們警務同仁為了打詐還要去確認這個粉磚到底是不是真的是不是那個當事人擁有的然後速發布 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11375.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11382.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
被粉專下架之後我們還要同仁加班去幫忙把那些正牌的粉絲專業救回來有沒有感覺到有點荒謬啊這樣我們中華民國政府現在是臉書的小弟是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11392.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11405.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
臉書是一個上市公司他是國際公司大家都用沒有錯我尊重但重點在於是說當他已經變成是犯罪集團的一個媒介結果反而變成是我們警政署要先幫他確認是說這個粉絲專頁是不是真的 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11408.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11426.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
然後真的粉絲專業正牌的被下架之後找臉書要找誰?他台灣沒有設客服我們速發不便是還要當他客服還要接了這些陳情之後然後跟臉書來通知那我請教啊到目前為止臉書有出來講話嗎?有承認錯誤嗎?也沒有欸市長我看你講是說你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11439.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11452.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
宿發部同仁收到陳情連夜加班跟臉書協調處理是臉書的客服咧如果說他是一個商業行為商業模式我們宿發部是主管機關照理講我們是應該要求臉書 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11454.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11467.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
去解決他們衍生出來的問題就不是啊我們變成是克服專線24小時不打烊臉書同仁來加班接受陳情之後然後欸臉書你們出包了趕快恢復那臉書現在咧他說據瞭解媒體報導臉書向速發部說明內部調查結果並強調未來不會再有這樣的錯誤會精進流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11482.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11493.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
他就跟訴發部講一下然後也沒有對外說明好像這件事情跟他都沒關係沒藥沒緊結果我們的警政署我們的訴發部兩大部會變成是要扛責任會不會覺得委屈啊會會怎麼辦啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11501.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11522.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
委員的憤怒其實我們感同身受因為像這個現在這個國際的這種媒體聚壽實在是各國對各國政府來講都是很頭痛的問題事實上美國也舉辦很多聽證會但是因為這些企業實在是太大了那以臉書來講的話大就可以法外之地嗎?大就可以不受控制嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11522.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11534.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
所以事實上臉書之前的問題是在於說他們在台灣的這種法尊部門只有兩個人但是他的業務部門很大但他們講的是互相不隸屬的他們向上的那個報告的那個網上報告的話他們的法尊部門是 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11538.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11561.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
報告給新加坡的那個亞太中心然後他們的銷售部門是那個report給那個香港的那個中心然後兩邊在通通report到美國的總部去所以我以前我們跟他的法尊部門要求這些事情要求那個事情的時候我們一直跟他要求可是他們就是說沒辦法後來我們也坦白講我們也覺得說那兩位同仁真的臉書的同仁真的很可憐一直被罵 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11561.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11588.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
所以後來我們的方法我們就是直接去找那個新加坡的那個亞太區總部去跟他去開會去跟他討論然後呢我們也會接下來也會跟那個事實上美國的那個加州的總部也已經派人來跟我們說明這個事情了然後每當我們跟美國的不管是行政部門或者是他的立法部門就他國會的那些有人來參訪的時候我們也是在跟他們講這個事情所以我們希望透過美國的輿論就給他施加壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11591.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11607.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
事實上也必須講句公道話就是說臉書它事實上它有在持續改進那但是只是說這是還要幫他講話市長我給你一分鐘的時間讓你好好說明就是因為我覺得其實公務同仁很辛苦啊是 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11608.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11632.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
這一件事情如果我現在都姑且相信你們講的是對的喔我現在姑且相信講說這速發部沒有提供資料而是內政部警政署提供資料但是你們提供的是正確的資料是臉書內部搞錯我都先相信因為你們在國會殿堂公開講這樣的話那如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是臉書內部的控管有問題但到目前為止三天四天了臉書沒有一個正式的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11634.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11642.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
大家捕風捉影然後要求你們來去做說明我什麼時候我們中華民國政府變成是臉書小弟大 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11643.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11671.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
美國其他國家即便是這樣子我相信都會有相關的法令臉書你過去講這些東西我也都了解但是不能說有一家公司來台灣賺很多錢要求投廣告可是他沒有負起相關的責任那我們難道沒有任何的因應作為嗎你身為數位發展部的主管機關其實我們要的是數位發展部當初成立的宗旨跟目的也就是要對於數位世界 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11671.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11678.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
有任何的亂象要去試著去控制試著去管理這是你們的宗旨啊市長所以這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11682.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11707.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
要怎麼因應?要怎麼改進?非常感謝委員,事實上也非常感謝立法院在今年的7月通過了打詐專法然後在打詐專法的第31條跟第32條我能不能要求臉書,因為之前我質詢部長部長講說已經邀請臉書來喝過很多次咖啡甚至我講說你們的APP裡面通報案件上個月10萬零5千件其中有九成都是跟Meta相關的詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11708.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11714.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
包括用Meta、用MetaMessage、用IG、用臉書都有那我講是說如果說九成的詐騙的管道都是從Meta來的話那難道不能先要求他們源頭管理嗎我才不會累壞我們所有的警務同仁啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11723.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11750.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
是 非常感謝委員事實上就是現在有了打仗那如果說他來喝咖啡喝不行那就請他喝禁酒啊禁酒喝不行喝罰酒啊完全同意賺錢我就我一樣開罰啊是 那現在有了打仗專法預計在11月底就要正式那個施行了然後接下來就有任何的這種狀況的話我們就可以直接開罰了這一點要非常感謝立法院通過這個而且我覺得最重要這件事情不在於在於是說臉書 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11752.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11772.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
他不能躲在幕後是然後還讓我們工務同仁加班是來謝謝次長跟那個分局長那抱歉那個國安局啊一件事情因為賴司法委員剛剛幾個委員都問到了我只是請教高嘉瑜前委員直接說因為他的這個深偽的影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11773.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11790.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
您有看到嗎?有看到因為上禮拜我講說這其實蠻明目張膽的因為第一他也算是公眾人物有名第二他用的是上政論節目的畫面那政論節目每天都會有YouTube上所以說他到底是講真的講假的一目了然 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11791.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
11814.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
可是居然會有人刻意去編造用AI來去做深偽的影片那我想請教這已經從上個禮拜高嘉瑜前委員也報案了那目前為止有進度嗎目前應該是由我們警察單位來受理在做偵辦哪一個可以說明一下現在有沒有進度有沒有查到兇手出處來源 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
11816.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
11836.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
官委報告 高介委員這個被偽造的影像是出自在中國大陸的一個抖音那他是一個三次郎工作室那邊所發布的部分那據我們了解這個發布人他現在也被抖音了因為他發布過都已經被禁權了那有關於抖音的部分因為是屬於中國大陸的這個網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
11838.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
11865.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
我服務平台業者我們沒辦法去要求他們來進行下架所以在國內的部分大概只能用TWLink的部分做網域封鎖來做處理那我想確認兩件事情因為我本席很關心我覺得任何人都不應該去仿冒尤其用這種深偽技術來去擾亂社會秩序如果說不是他講的話的話我覺得任何人都不應該那這請教兩個部分你們就掌握了解這是集團犯罪還是個人行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
11866.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
11871.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
目前能看到他所發布是個人來推斷目前能從他發布的部分只能推斷他是個人來發布那這一批裡面除了高嘉瑜被仿冒還有沒有其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
11890.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
11915.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
他還有其他一些名嘴跟政治人物都有跟委員報告說他在發布的影像裡面他就已經在影片上他已註明是深層製造的影會有註明嗎他底下有深層製造但是後來經過這個他可能是用TikTok或是用抖音可是因為他也可以被下載所以下載完之後如果再繼續轉傳的話你就沒有辦法掌握是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
11916.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
11943.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
這要看他的影像本身 原本上面的影像還沒有再被變質過如果是有再去做其他處理的話 這我們不管保證好 來 那副局長 最後我只講因為這樣的一個深偽技術 其實大家都要防範我覺得這還是算是第一階廣傳 可是大家可以分辨有很多其實是都沒有辦法分辨譬如說 我只是簡單舉 因為我時間也到了但是我必須還是要再次提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
11945.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
11960.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
阿湯哥的不可能任務有沒有看過就新這一集還沒看致命清算有沒有他致命清算還沒看但他已經去年就上映了致命清算他講的其實就是深偽技術而我們知道好萊塢通常會把他拍出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
11961.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
11975.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
代表這個技術可能已經過15年了可能已經市面上已經5年了所以說才會變成是電影拍攝換言之電影沒有拍的可能更先進而裡面致命清算裡面我建議真的我們國安單位也一定要去看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
11975.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
11989.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
並不是說娛樂更重要的是你要了解他裡面其中有一段是阿湯哥接受任務突然間深偽技術AI直接把命令者跟被命令者的中斷的訊息給砍斷然後下達錯誤的資訊讓阿湯哥跑錯地方我覺得如果說這個技術真的被運用駭客的技術真的可以發展成這樣的話那很危險變成是不管是 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12003.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12014.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
發生什麼意外狀況或什麼緊急狀況的時候我們的指揮中心跟我們的前線部隊有可能中間的這樣的一個訊息是不是會被入侵、被控制、被 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12017.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12043.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
委員提醒因為這個深層式AI這個出來以後一個技術很大的變革啦它能夠產製出我們很多以前想像不到的包括惡意城市嘛都可以自動深層所以委員講這個部分我們會持續關注這種AI眼鏡然後驅動的這些威脅樣態事實的長收以後會提供給我們相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12044.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12048.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
這真的應該要適時掌收好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝紅夢凱委員謝謝副局長那請葛無菊委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12067.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12074.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
好 謝謝主席 有請速發部次長、林次長跟內政部警政署的代表 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12079.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12103.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
市長好副局長您好我想前幾天大家真的很驚嚇就是有非常多的粉專被下架那當你搜尋這些所謂的網紅結果找到的都是像下面的右下角的這種詐騙反而真的找不到假的一大堆那包含我們的證交所也受到波及 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12104.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12132.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那我首先還是要感謝這個次長齁週末加班發文那也有很多的同仁也許有加班齁那我想公務人員非常辛苦啦齁那最後大家都是要一起來努力的齁那至於次長您臉書有提到齁臉書有沒有接到其他單位的要求你不是很清楚齁那在這裡我想要先請教一下這個警政署副局長齁你有沒有發現這很可能是在暗指你們啊你有沒有發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12137.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12156.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
不知道副局長有沒有發現這個林次長底下的留言底下呢就有網紅貼上去說他們第一時間粉專恢復的時候收到臉書的通知說是來自Criminal Investigation Bureau的這個法律要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12157.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12167.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
這個是不是警政署嗎?對吧?內政部警政署的英文沒錯嗎?呃 刑事局的英文對 刑事局的英文那 是真的還是假的? |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12167.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12193.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
我們並沒有要求臨書去下架這些真實的粉專對嘛那這個是不是假的是不是AI深偽的這個是不是有人假造刑事局的身份去提出法律要求有沒有可能據我們了解是臨書他們內部在一個篩選機制上沒有我說這個通知他說是來自刑事局嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12194.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12200.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
那你們又說沒有嘛對不對那有沒有要調查如果有人偽造嚴不嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12202.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12229.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
當然如果有人偽造是嚴重的那這是怎麼樣?他打錯字嗎?那要不要要求Meta出來說明?Meta他們本身我們是有提供一些黑名單就是我們從網路這些網路服務平台發現很多偽造的我們會請...不是,這是被錯下架的粉專說他們收到通知是警政署這裡的資訊嘛那這是不是有人偽造?還是是真的?這到底是真的還是假的? |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12229.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12244.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
跟委員報告,就我們的了解是臉書它內部的篩選機制它有不同部門,他們有認知臉書事務的問題他們現在就說是Criminal這個,這個刑事局嘛是那你們如果不背鍋要不要調查啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12245.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12267.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
這我們會再跟他反請他更正因為他們是內部的不同單位聯繫到底是不是警政署你現在說不出來嘛是不是有人偽造你也答不出來嘛那市長在臉書上面PO了底下也有人留言市長也按讚了那通報這邊有沒有通報警政署去了解有沒有你只要說有還是沒有速發部有沒有橫向通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12268.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12282.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
有還是沒有?國會殿堂請說有或沒有?是跟委員報告這因為不是我月館所以這個細節我我並不了解那可以調查一下嗎?我們待會會有具體要求再來那我想問一下速發部 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12284.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12308.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
書發部有沒有收集網紅白名單有還是沒有跟委員報告因為有一些網紅他們就一直跟我們澄清說他們希望進入白名單但是沒有收集是他們主動要求我們做這件事情你確定齁好OK那你沒有收集那這封信是不是假的是不是有人偽造你們提出提出收集 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12311.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12332.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
這不是你們嘛對不對這個我要去確認一下齁因為這個比較細緻的部分你沒辦法確認你剛剛又說沒有好沒關係我們今天就了解真相是這是不是你們這是不是錯假訊息這是不是AI深偽我們是數位發展部反詐騙工作小組這是網紅提出的喔截圖喔是還是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12337.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12351.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
報告委員我們在國會殿堂因為我沒有看過這封信事情在禮拜五的深夜已經發生您週末也發文然後呢說同仁很辛苦都是Meta的錯都其他單位的錯那訴發部有沒有責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12355.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12382.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我們當然有責任我們事實上我們不推委責任我們馬上加班去把這個事情給處理了說事發原因你們有沒有責任嘛沒關係那所以你們沒有收集白名單那我們之後再來瞭解啦我們非常有疑義說那你收集的目的是什麼如果你已經收集了又沒有辦法保護他們那到底目的是什麼你要收集個資嗎系統誤判、錯假下架、速發部有沒有責 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12383.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12401.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
有沒有責?如果發生錯假下架的話當然有責如果是責任在我們身上當然是有責如果是已經是我們造成的當然是我們沒有責任所以責任不在你們身上你們就沒有責所以如果不是你們造成的你就沒有責任嘛對不對?好很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12402.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12419.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
你們數位產業發展部平台經濟的業務就在你們的下轄的業務範圍之下是臉書是不是平台經濟是你們數發部有沒有付有沒有一些單位政府有沒有單位付他廣告費我們有這麼多的預算做網路行銷我們是不是都把他全部砍掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12425.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12449.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
再來,打詐專法通過了以後,詐欺有關的廣告業者的平台,是不是在你們下轄之下,你們有沒有責任?這方面當然有責任啊!對嘛!所以他就算只是他犯的錯,處罰部也有責任嘛!這寫得清清楚楚的啊!那您剛剛是不是現在打臉剛剛的你自己?就算是吧! |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12452.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12477.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
好 這個態度我們都錄下來沒有關係大家事實公平速發部這是您的美照謝謝你們要宣傳打詐的時候找平台業者來然後呢發生問題了說是平台業者的錯速發部沒有責任沒有關係我們不要去講這些有的沒的我們就只問一件事11月15號深夜從7點開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12481.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12484.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
大批網紅粉專下架什麼時候恢復的?次長知道嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12493.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12512.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
請問同仁報告委員大概12點陸陸續續然後12點13分的時候這個Meta有傳訊息給我已經陸陸續續已經恢復了然後我這邊會陸續有去監控我這邊有那裡的訊息也可以提供委員來看謝謝非常好 非常精準的回答那速發部什麼時候發布的回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12515.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12536.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
蘇發部什麼時候發布的回應?關於粉專已經恢復了出了這個大問題請民眾不要恐慌我們蘇發部已經在努力了你們什麼時候公開對這件事情發表回應的?什麼時候?這個我要回去查一下因為當初不是我自己回應的所以可能要請同仁說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12537.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12565.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
什麼時候來報告委員其實就像我覺得很多事情就像火災一樣發生的事情要趕快先處理三後所以目前來講其實一直以來我就一直在連續所有的粉磚直到所有的粉磚能夠確定恢復之後然後我們才來做適當的因應所以也因為這樣子到隔天的時候我們就通報次長然後報告次長說這個到底目前現在情況怎樣所以次長也在演說適當的人跟大家講然後所以才會有剛剛委員看的那一封信說請大家安心如果你還有什麼問題的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12566.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12592.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
當然我也知道委員也很關心我也持續關注委員的一些臉書也做一個所以我們一起來努力把這個整個事情發生當然就是我們要救災 把它處理好以上謝謝 謝謝委員首先速發部的預算如果不夠的話可以提出來啦你們有很多的單位不是你們在救災的時候你們有沒有收發室你們有沒有一些這個要上傳資訊的部門不要講得好像整個速發部所有的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12593.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12606.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
都在救災啊當然不是嘛那到現在速發部也沒有做官方的這個提出啊我們你們在事發的平台上面你們到現在都還沒有聲明為什麼我要提這件事啊跟市長說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12608.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12629.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
我在11月15號晚上11點09分請大家關注這件事也是希望平台業者希望我們的政府部會趕快來解決不然民眾很恐慌會不會還有下一波的問題等等確實如您所說凌晨12點13分左右就恢復了我的這個更新就是在那個時候PO的 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12629.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12653.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
因為沒有拿到也沒有得到速發部的任何聲明所以我們當然很抱歉我們並不知道同仁在進行加班所以呢我們在這裡是說感謝Meta因為按下恢復按鈕的還是他嘛因為那個平台不是我們的嘛所以我感謝Meta在全力奔走聯繫大家一起努力嘛對不對那恢復了請問我這樣PO有沒有問題有沒有問題沒有問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12659.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12684.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我沒有發表沒有什麼問題啊對嘛結果底下一批人都在講說為什麼只感謝Meta今天我也感謝速發部為什麼因為我們後來知道嘛對不對我們後來知道嘛所以我想請問速發部大家都說這個您剛剛說沒有直接責任那我就請教速發部有沒有通報業者Meta做快速下架的機制你有沒有可能跟他聯動 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12685.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12696.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
是有可能啊有可能嘛對不對這是你們速發部的官網寫的嘛快速下架是由政府部門通報的詐騙嘛是你們有沒有可能不小心通報錯了 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12697.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12717.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
當然有可能,但是我們很小心就避免這種狀況那你的臉書上說沒有嘛對阿,那這件事情的確沒有阿,這件事情的確不是我們所謂通報的所以你們說沒有嘛,所以我確認一件事,因為網友都在講,訴發部沒有權力也沒有能力去下架詐騙粉專我就此請教你,你們有沒有能力通報並且下架粉專 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12719.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12732.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
我們有能力通報,那能不能直接命令他做下架到目前是不行的一個加大磚他已經通過了,但是還沒有正式施行所以如果有錯粉磚下架,也有可能是通報錯了,對不對?您就對或不對就好了是喔對嘛,沒錯嘛,因為這就是你們的紀錄嘛一個小時之內去幫這些商業的業者去下架錯假粉磚嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12747.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12774.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
你們也有說跟44位名人建立通報管道這個就是你們所謂的白名單可能還有更多啦這是你們官網上寫的您剛剛說不清楚數量沒有關係今天其實我的要求非常的簡單謝謝主席給我時間講完這三個具體訴求希望我們的政府部會一起協助我們讓我們不要打詐越打越憂心讓大家可以有一個安心的資通安全的環境首先 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
12776.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
12790.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
請求內政部的警政署一週內提供Meta收到警政署相關單位的法律要求之內容及調查報告以確認是否有偽造警政單位之犯罪可不可以一週內 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
12791.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
12811.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
我們全力來達成全力來達成提供給本席另外第二點請事務發布一週內提供白名單到底要了多少人數資料的欄位到底要了哪些資訊因為這可能有個資或同意權的問題以及這個白名單跟這一次波及的網紅的重疊比例我都不需要知道是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
12812.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
12834.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
我們保護他們的隱私但是相關的資訊我們希望知道去確認有沒有程序或資安的漏洞大家要一起來努力可以嗎一週內我們會再去掉那個各自的訊息我的要求已經是不需要各自了最後一點請速發部一週內提供關於次長有發文這段期間速發部並沒有發公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
12838.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
12852.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
也沒有用其他任何方式通知臉書請提供我資料具體指出到底是哪一段期間以及調查了哪些其他的任何方式提供給本席有沒有問題一周內沒有問題嗎事情發生是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
12862.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
12885.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
就是禮拜五晚上所以你們通報到他下架不需要時間是不是不是啊所以前五分鐘前一個小時都不需要提供嗎那個委員我在那段話後面還有就是說沒有用其他任何方式通知臉書我記得我是寫說通知臉書下架那些我這一段是完全複製貼上的你要回去看也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
12886.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
12909.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
沒有關係我沒有要玩文字遊戲大家一起來協同瞭解情況文字提供給我您剛剛說這段期間是從發生的時候開始所以你的意思是說很可能五分鐘前事發前五分鐘你們可能有提供下架喔下架通報囉前一個小時你們可能有提供下架通報囉有沒有這個可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
12910.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
12930.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
您要好好仔細的瞭解這個狀況,確認一下您的意識到底是什麼,請速發布具體的回文給我們,這樣可以嗎?可以,可以,沒問題。謝謝,謝謝次長,謝謝主席。謝謝葛如君委員,那請各部門儘速提供資料給葛如君委員。接下來我們請楊瓊瑩委員上台質詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
12938.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
12941.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
市長,從幾位委員在詢問當中,你很輕鬆,但是民眾都很緊張,所以我還是願意讓你講。 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
12958.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
12972.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
到底是怎麼回事因為從幾位委員的詢答當中還是沒有得到真正的你要說明的這個內容所以我願意跟你講講清楚到底怎麼回事從禮拜五開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
12973.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
12989.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
OK,非常謝謝委員,就禮拜五晚上,我們速發部陸續接到一些民眾的通報對,粉專被下架了,當然大家都會很緊張嘛,還會研發到哪些位置呢?大家都很緊張是,沒錯連公部門、證交所也影響到了,這怎麼辦?來請說說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
12993.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
12999.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
是 當下我們就接到這些通報以後呢我們就是馬上去處理就是說去聯絡臉書把這些那個粉磚就是正牌的粉磚你們馬上去聯絡嗎對 我們去那個跟臉書還 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13009.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13010.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
請行事局 請回座 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13038.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13053.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
到目前為止大家還是有很多的質疑那到底有沒有故意的情節有沒有到目前為止你們了解目前了解是沒有故意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13053.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13081.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
但目前為止了解是沒有故意的就我們了解是臉書公司他有個內部篩選機制他們單位之間聯繫的時候發生了問題所以不小心警政單位你們的說法是臉書自己出的問題他們內部的聯繫機制有發生的確定是他們內部出的機制問題目前了解是這樣目前了解是這樣子那你請回座來那個國安局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13088.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13088.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13089.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13119.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
我想你聽到現在各單位大家現在對於書發部的期待也很高當然對我們警政單位的期待都很高因為他是人民的保姆尤其AI的這個情況之下所以我本期要來請教我們國安局你面對AI可能帶來的資安外洩、資安危機政府你要怎麼去因應你光光一個粉磚下架大家眼神的恐慌 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13120.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13120.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
面對這種深層式AI的發起 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13144.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13162.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
然後可能我們要從他可能會構成什麼樣的威脅來談我們怎麼來因應首先他會快速的產製惡意程式第二個社交電郵那會更加仿真以前語文是障礙幾乎要百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13163.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13182.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
這件事已經不是障礙而且它快速還可以持續學習優化面對這樣的攻擊我們要從三個角度來看第一個就是應該要先有機制面機制面政府機關我相信都已經有一個既有的機制接下來是要落實強化舉個例子就是說第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13184.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13194.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
剛剛樹花部次長也有提到我們因應這種邊界的設備可能遭受AI的漏洞攻擊目前我們看到這是越來越常見所以邊界設備應該要做好 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13198.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13223.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
相關的防護導入零信任甚至精明的資訊能夠做實體隔離避免駭客能夠直接碰觸另外一個就是要加強人員的資安意識資安意識包括剛剛講的社交工程的電由越來越仿真越來越精準所以只要是人員的資安意識就是遇到來路不明不要去點甚至應該要落實單位的資安規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13226.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13243.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
國安局如果以你目前給本席所做的說明你根本沒有辦法解決什麼問題那你請暫停我還是請訴發部喔市長你認為在剛剛國安局所說的說法當中在訴發部你可以扮演什麼樣的角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13244.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13254.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
抱歉委員請問是哪一個部分而且在整個這個害青的跟露餡的這個部分是非常的恐怖那你可以扮演什麼樣的這個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13256.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13280.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
OK,我們速發部在這個AI的方面第一個當然就是說我們要就是在提供各種工具給這個內政部、警政署等或者是其他政府單位就是來對抗這些不管是假訊息或者是AI的那種風險那我們當然是速發部在這個在這個數位方面我們是主責單位所以所有這些方面 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13281.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13293.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
都是我們的責任,抱歉請問委員．倒是你的責任,我請問你們的橫向聯繫現在目前執行的情況怎麼樣?OK嗎?應該還可以應該還可以,為什麼發生了這麼多事情? |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13293.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13318.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
您是說這件事情指的是那個週末的這件事情而且訊息萬變所以我在這邊尤其剛剛國安特別講到了因為這世界各國因為整個是無國界的是無國界的在這樣的情況之下你要怎麼樣跟橫向所有相關去聯繫各國加強這一些相關的情資 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13320.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13346.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
事實上最近一直有一些友好國家包含一些先進國家還有一些開發中的民主國家他們都來台灣都跟我們在AI以及資安方面做很多的探討因為現在很多的資安攻擊都是跨國的而且會是跳轉的比如說他要攻擊台灣的話他可能先攻擊美國從美國再跳轉來攻擊台灣也可能先攻擊菲律賓當然所以可以看到這個嚴重性 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13349.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13377.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
是 這個是非常嚴重所以我們有很多橫向的溝通但是這方面的溝通通常是我們那個訴發部下屬的資安院那邊做這種溝通那這些溝通因為涉及到國安所以並不是說每一次的會面每一次的討論都會公開而且這個討論的細節更是不能就是隨意在媒體公開的你不用說每一次要公開我們民眾要的是一個答案是一個結果論民眾得到安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13377.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13403.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
是安心的一個生活是因為大家現在不安心是不安心謝謝那局長那個國安局我再請教美國在10月份的時候他發布了國家安全備忘錄對不對那他特別也把無甲大廈跟情報單位增加了這個AI的技術應用跟部署這是首次 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13404.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13407.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
建議維護美國與全球資訊網的安全來防止利用AI進行軍事情報活動這是首次對AI技術的使用、管理及相關風險具體因應措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13428.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13452.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
他期望在加強AI的技術網路安全、防情報、軍事研發等這些國家安全的領域當中都能夠同時透過相關的風險控管的規範他主要的目的就是要確保公民的權益不受侵犯但是我們現在感覺到臺灣的人民他的權力已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13453.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13472.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
非常不安心,你可以感同身受嗎?包委員,我們政府、國科會也同樣的訂定了我們國家的人工智慧積分法案,那這個法案裡面也是結合鼓勵創新跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13474.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13497.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
要兼顧到民眾的一個權益所以這裡面的一個精神裡面就有針對民眾的隱私權還有相關的權益的保障這個的應用定定的綱領的指引所以這個故事有在做你首先回答本校要請教的就是說你目前所說的這個是國會會他們所做的一個規範但在你國安局 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13498.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13512.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
美國都已經這麼做了備忘錄都已經出來我們國安局自己的備忘錄或者是指引你們的方向是什麼我們在去年事實上有跟依據行政院針對深層市 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13514.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13535.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
人工智慧使用的一個規範我們訂定一個作業原則提供給我們同仁來做指引這目的也是要第一個兼顧到AI的應用第二個要合規的應用然後能保障合乎我們現行的一個規定所以這個部分是我們在制度面上另外我們針對剛剛委員所提的美國這個針對軍情單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13539.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13545.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
你也可以看看他們有哪一些他既然公布我們會參考你們應該滾動式的趕快去看怎麼樣能夠讓我們的人民更加的安全委員我們這個內部已經有做過研究所以我們會參考美國訂定出來這樣的一個精神我們會檢討我們內部的一個機制朝向更加穩健的方式來發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13565.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13565.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
謝謝楊崇英委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13594.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13622.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
副局長和次長請回羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在何新淳、何新淳委員不在林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前委員不在吳立華、吳立華、吳立華委員不在接下來我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13633.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13658.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
謝謝昭偉,麻煩有請國安局局長走了嘛,對不對?那是不是麻煩請副局長、法務部調查局副局長以及內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長三位好,時間的關係不宜問候今天我們在處理有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13660.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13682.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
深偽以及錯假訊息對我們國家安全的影響以及因應這是一個非常嚴肅的課題之前我們在2021年的時候國安局就說了AI Deepfake危及國家安全要去訂因應的SOP那個時候應該是陳明通在立法院說的然後到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13688.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13711.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
今年的時候,你們在10月31號的書面報告說有會大量的製造深偽的影片、杜撰、錯假的訊息我今天看到了我們主要負責的一個是調查局,一個是內政部、警政署我先請教一下我們的內政部、警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13713.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13729.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
你們在報告裡面的第二頁到第三頁說在2022年7月5號的時候,最高檢察署檢察總長召開的這個會議當中那包括你們跟調查局是主要的檢測機關嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13731.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13758.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
那你們說刑事警察局除了可以檢測真偽,也可以依照個案偵查其來源IP位置,也可以溯源偵辦?是的那你們刑事警察局真的可以檢驗真偽嗎?我們有相關的一個軟體,跟報告員我們有相關的一個檢測軟體來可以做相關的一個檢驗能力如何?當然他沒辦法百分之百,但我們可以再就他的實質內容沒辦法百分之百,那個軟體花多少錢? |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
13760.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
13768.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
我們是花了一千...兩個軟體大概一千萬兩個軟體大概一千萬兩個軟體一千萬是的花了一千萬的軟體辨別的能力現在有到幾%我請我們柯市長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
13777.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
13802.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
報告委員因為AI的檢測本來就有一定的限制這我理解那我們跟調查局其實是有共同討論出來我們檢測的流程跟標準那根據這兩個軟體還有一些開源軟體以及我們去做一些事後的判斷所以有一套的檢測的方式來做檢測那我們不敢講說百分之百能夠檢驗的出來但是這一套的檢驗是經過大概百分之多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
13805.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
13824.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
我們有信心可以達到百分之九十五以上百分之九十五以上是,那有一些會有一些限制,譬如說影響沒有關係啊,我們等一下就你們遇到的限制再進一步討論因為深偽對台灣國家安全造成非常嚴重的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
13825.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
13847.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
特別是如果老共拿來介入我們國家國內的事務這正是對我們的國家安全造成非常嚴重的威脅所以為什麼會排這樣子的專案報告我們就要深入的去了解我們被滲透的有多嚴重老共到底是怎麼搞的具體的案子現在處理的狀況到什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
13850.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
13876.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
你們在報告裡面講說從112年到113年10月辦理檢測的案件11件3件是總統、副總統選舉罷免法相關的案件其他的8件是刑事案件這11個案件都甄解了嗎?有些案件是送件單位那我沒有瞭解說他地檢署那邊甄解了沒?可以去追溯一下嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
13877.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
13895.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
我們可以了解這11個案件裡面偵查的情形因為吼你們已經標定11個案件出來了嘛這11個案件我們是有順利的抓到這些為非作歹做這種可惡至極的歹徒 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
13896.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
13921.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
還是雷聲大雨點小?一點結果都沒有?這個國人會很關心可能在分散各個地檢署他們最後處理終結的情況是怎麼樣?刑事警察局也未必清楚嗎?調查局也未必清楚嗎?那但是我覺得總是要有個單位把這個資料都彙整以後跟大家做說明這樣可以嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
13923.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
13946.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
我們會清查偵查的情形對偵查不公開的就不公開嘛還沒有偵截就還沒有偵截嘛那偵截了以後最後的結果是怎麼樣是簽截是不起訴還是起訴這牽涉到你們前面花了這麼多時間做這麼辛苦的工作總要有個結果出來嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
13947.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
13964.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
要不然我們花這麼多錢買這些設備你們也去做檢測了結果最後的結果是什麼大家不知道案件偵辦到哪裡大家都不知道我相信啊我們在面對國家安全威脅這麼嚴肅的課題啊絕對不能虎頭蛇尾啊贊不贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
13970.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
13981.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
有關後續的一個偵檢起訴或是審判提醒我們會來做一個了解好具體的請教這個是深偽造假還是中共借血這個鑑定出來沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
13985.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14002.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
報告委員這個案件是當時是我們新北市調查處受理的那也在新北地檢細數了那我們在鑑識的結果也移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢的處理當中目前還在偵查當中嗎是的所以這是不是造假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14005.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14032.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
我們的鑑定結果已經送到地檢了所以要由地檢他們那邊有地檢來加以說明嘛現在還在細數還沒有真解嘛OK好當事人說啊這個是深偽造假調查局說要尊重當事人的意願嘛所以不能公佈結果嘛這我也尊重啊但問題是這已經不是個人的問題啦這是國家安全的問題耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14034.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14056.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
這如果是中共借選的話,可以辦到今天都沒有結果嗎?新北地檢還要辦多久?調查局知不知道?發委員我們會和新北地檢,請新北市調查處和新北地檢先做一些溝通協調,然後如果有進步情形再和委員報告。這個案子拖很久了嘛!當事人都站出來控訴啦! |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14058.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14080.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
這中共借選啊知識體大非常嚴重啊絕對不能虎頭蛇尾啊剛剛大家都贊成不能虎頭蛇尾嘛這麼嚴肅的事情絕對要把它查清楚啊是不是真的是中共借選是不是真的是身為偽造這要給社會大眾一個交代啊贊成嗎?負局長你贊成嗎?大家就等著啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14086.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14113.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
到底是哪個單位這麼可惡啊那不是只有影像的問題啊還有錄音檔的問題啊這位之前的前立委說啊他連錄音檔都被變造啊他要求的是什麼他要求的是說這是明顯的境外借權的作為期待國安及司法單位迅速處理啊來先請國安單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14116.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14132.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
現在處理的進度如何報告委員這個部分我們是交給那個司法機關在調查當中所以跟國安單位沒有關係喔我們只要影響國安跟涉案的我們都會持續的駐收 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14134.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14158.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
你說影響到國安的你們都會怎麼樣?我們會去了解這樣的一個案情提供給相關單位來爭取那目前你們了解的狀況怎麼樣?因為這個案子還在司法調查當中這我們要尊重司法機關的調查所以跟國安單位沒有關係嗎?我剛剛提到只要是會影響國安跟涉案的這個案子你覺得有沒有影響到國安?您覺得有沒有影響到國安? |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14168.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14180.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
對 這個部分我們還是要尊重這個司法警察機關的一個我了解嘛 所以國安單位的立場就是說這個國安單位沒有關係 要尊重檢調嘛 是吧所以呼籲國安單位是呼籲錯的對象 是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14183.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14201.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
包委員,我們針對這個,我們不就這個個案去做評估啦,因為它已經進到司法程序了,但是我們的職者會去掌收這種徵訊或者是影響國家安全跟社會安定的所以從國安單位的立場來講,就是要等司法檢調機關嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14202.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14226.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
是嗎?因為他已經在在進行當中啊所以這個部分我們還是要尊重事法檢調區嘛沒有關係啦那你就講嘛說這個國安單位在事法檢調有結果出來以前跟我們沒有關係這樣一句話不就講完了我有說錯嗎?我不是說沒有關係那你覺得有關係我們要尊重不是我們要尊重這個事法檢調區當然要尊重事法檢調嘛來刑事警察局委員好這個殷檔刑事警察局有沒有鑑定 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14233.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14261.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
報告委員這不是我們負責鑑定的好來調查局報告委員這個案子是我們調查局做的鑑定鑑定結果出來沒有鑑定結果已經送到臺北地檢了這個案子是臺北地檢上一個案子是新北地檢現在兩個案子都還在細數嗎那可能再請調查局請新北地檢還有臺北地檢的同仁大家都很辛苦多努力一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14264.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14290.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
當事人都已經指控了這老共借選欸介入我們的選舉欸多嚴重的事情啊這麼嚴重的事情辦到現在都還辦不出來喔是能力有問題還是決心有問題副局長你覺得呢案子在新北地檢跟台北地檢你們該做的鑑定都做完了嘛希望也利用這個機會喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14292.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14320.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
調查局跟臺北地檢講跟新北地檢講當事人指控這麼明確這中共借選影像也是偽造的、陰檔也是偽造的那是不是偽造的只有你們知道嘛但你們也不方便講那全體國人就只好等啊等臺北地檢跟新北地檢給大家一個交代啊否則這麼嚴重的事情可以用霍西尼的喔霍西尼混一混就過去喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14322.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14347.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
這牽涉到國家安全的問題耶剛剛大家都同意這很嚴重嘛不能虎頭蛇尾嘛一定要水落石出嘛但看起來今天來做專案報告的這三個單位國安局是要尊重檢調嘛阿調查局你們的結果跟台北地檢想台北地檢不說你們也沒辦法說所以到底是不是偽造變造的 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14348.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14354.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
到底是誰搞的?到目前為止關心這件事情的全體國人都沒有一個答案嗎?是嗎?是、是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14361.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14387.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
你不要笑嘛 你憋著笑 這很嚴肅的問題我是很嚴肅的態度在請教你啊法務委員我剛也回答了這個案子有細數的遞減那當然要由遞減室最後查處的狀況覺得有對國人說明的必要由他們來出面不應該由調查局 我們也是一個偵查一團一這牽涉到國家安全你認為有沒有跟國人說明的必要 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14389.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14412.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
您覺得有沒有認為跟國人說明的必要我個人認為如果這個案子告一段落當然是有需要對國人做一個說明好 非常好再麻煩調查局分別跟新北地檢還有台北地檢講這事情很重要啊攸關國家安全啊結果是什麼大家都要等他們出來跟國人做說明啊好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14420.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14443.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在林楚瑩 林楚瑩 林楚瑩委員不在已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有王定宇委員、林楚瑩委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14446.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14461.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位已書面兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束 散會 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14485.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14485.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
主席 |