| IVOD_ID |
162771 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162771 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-23T10:28:25+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-23T10:45:57+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b58c4cf52db2e91ab6119ed1df679a867f2aef3382ea3fb0b1c1f5e093a47950e6203fd8a27c331a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:28:25 - 10:45:57 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、司法院及衛生福利部就「現行獄政與受刑人處遇機制之制度檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席 有請我們服務部黃次長還有矯正署周署長還有我們衛生福利部我們石署長 次長我也好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
25.952 |
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還有兩位署長好其實我剛才也提過了其實每一次去考察就是要發現一些問題來這個地方跟我們行政部門去做一個參考來做一個改善這也是立法院的一個監督所必須要我有幾個問題來就教我想從今天所提出來的報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
46.1 |
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在司法法制委員會我們也一直在呼籲就是整個現在的一個現行的雷金廚藝條例裡面那各級的差別還有這個整個責任分數跟成績分數跟長期我們整個矯正署的規劃目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
63.619 |
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70.345 |
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是把整個累進廚藥的制度把它給廢除掉到監獄刑刑法裡面去我想我提出幾個問題今天特別請署長上來的原因就是說在我們一般監獄裡面 |
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78.693 |
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84.056 |
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受刑人,那其實他還是我們的國民,他只是穿著球衣的一個國民。那他在我們監獄裡面,生活的基本的一個需求,這個也都是我們國家去編列預算,來去做一個支付。 |
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那可是呢 你說他的一個基本生活那基本生活到底包括哪一些就可以來做討論啦我記得我上禮拜就教過 就是說那時時屬長你沒來 就說 |
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那在地的很多區域醫院,剛好各縣市都會有一些監獄,那你必須要到醫療院所來做服務,去看一看之後,受刑人,還是去看一看之後,進去服刑以後,他真的是有些跟家庭,或者說他本來的經濟狀況就不好。 |
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那又進去服刑以後跟家庭,就是得不到家庭的一個支持連看病啊,到最後都欠繳啦,欠錢啦,看白就看不去啦所以,隆重,石署長你知不知道,到醫療院所裡面,給這個監獄受刑人,這樣欠多少錢 |
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155.839 |
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176.7 |
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跟委員報告,保險費就是健保費的部分是都有矯正機關納罷啦,這就是部分負擔,還有一些醫療費用,從102年到現在大概差不多五千萬左右五千萬,你說你健保費,你看在矯正署,我們政府部門都已經編列這個健保費了 |
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那只是說部分負擔的部分就是說一般老百姓去看病他也要繳錢你監獄受刑人你來你也要繳錢檢報員政府幫你編OK 市政規範這看起來好像是說我的政府我幫你建保會我幫你叫你的受刑人你自己沒錢要安裝可是另外有一招無辜啊醫院無辜啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
202.085 |
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214.248 |
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醫院無辜啊 你看譬如說 我一直在講台東馬街 我覺得他很無辜啊你們桃園部立醫院 他也無辜啊其他的醫療院所 你說欠了五千萬你問教證署 教證署說你這台我的事 那不是我的事啊我是人換人來 給你照顧 願意給你打扮 給你上便衣 健保衛生 又給你便利選 給你拉馬跟教證署又無關 可是站在那個醫療院所的立場就是 人你帶來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
229.387 |
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253.879 |
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那個健保署的意思就是說你們的意思就是說不然那個不穩負擔本來就是你要繳的啊事大家講都好像都 彼此都沒事醫院 他說我沒辦法繳薪繳證署當然他必須要去協助去幫忙醫院啦 說不然你快吊吊的 去給他收工或是說他沒看來除了這些以外你也不能說繳證署你跳出來你要幫人 你帶來的 你要去付錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
255.782 |
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274.525 |
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你做醫療院所,你算主管機關,那各地的便衣店,你要怎樣,你有更好的方法嗎?跟委員報告,這個事情我們有在健保會討論過,因為健保署這邊的預算主要都是來自於 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
275.986 |
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295.183 |
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人民繳交的健保費所以用這個說法公平性上確實有它的爭議性但是也不要讓提供服務的這些醫療機構承擔這些財務的風險所以我們一方面你這樣說也是無解啊我要說黃次長我的意思就是說我的意思就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
296.424 |
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306.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個我們都認定 受刑人在間的基本生活需求在間的基本生活需求是國家編列預算統一來做支付日子之後 年期啦 電啦 食飯啦 這都國家嘛這都叫國家 如果你再去把它擴大的話 就是說醫療的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
318.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
347.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
社會沒給支持嘛出來的人可能有的人沒給支持嘛因為他們家有錢要來給支持欠錢的地方就是自己沒錢啦還是他們家沒給支持這樣會產生這種狀況嘛我覺得要解決的有沒有方法 次長那剛委員報告齁這個剛剛在我們今天的書面報告裡面也有提到齁就是說剛剛那個事務長講的五千萬齁事實上有一部分其實我們已經處理了齁現在應該是這是多年累積的總額啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
348.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
356.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
應該是剩下四千或三千多萬我們現在是這樣就是說因為這個欠費是這個受刑人看病那他跟這個醫療醫療法律關係但是我們另外有針對經濟困難的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
369.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
384.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
就是其實授權並不一定都沒有錢我們要憑良心的話講是這樣那針對經濟困難部分我們每年就有編八百萬的假設作業基金去支援那去年也增到一千萬那未來我們會在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
385.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
409.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
再跟這個健保署這邊來協商逐年我們會把這個過去的欠費跟未來如何處理這個部分的經費的問題我們會研理就是因為不夠才會你四年欠了下快五千萬嘛不只四年啦一百零二年到現在你那個一百一十二到一百一十四年的欠費你加一加就四千多萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
411.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
417.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
但是還會有清場啦是嘛,所以我要跟他說已經不夠,好啦,這個問題我認為啊政府的責任啦,就是說這個我們為什麼一直要考察或者說在立法院裡面有一些關於矯正署的一個專報我們也很為難耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
433.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
451.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
社會的氛圍是不利於來討論這個議題的社會的氛圍是常常是 嗚 這個人你看尤其事件剛發生的時候 嗚 這個好可惡喔你會殺人喔 你會詐欺喔 幹嘛幹嘛 社會是討厭的社會那個時候的氣氛就是說 吃粽 管好事 好啦 起訴啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
454.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
479.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
審判了嘛隨著時間會過去嘛這個社會必須要穩定嘛到發監執行了他就是變成我們穿著球衣的國民了嘛除了我們現行制度你有一個叫做終身監禁那你也不可能任何罪行全部都提高到終身監禁嘛所以你在監的時候怎麼樣去處理這個就是一個有名該去思考的一個問題啊否則你不用到現在說我長期我這個到最後是把整個累進廚育的一個條 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
506.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個制度全部把它廢除掉因為大家殊客就是這樣嘛那接下來我要問啦就是說我們去考察這麼多監獄裡面啊署長你認為說喔這一些受刑人每一個月你們認為說他的作業金跟勞動這個部分作業金他一公尺多少有夠三千嘛 您說的嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
510.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
524.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
三千塊是維持他生活的基本費用的錢是所以呢我們說再到監獄裡面去你讓他學習謀生的技能那你這個剩下你這個作業10% |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
527.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
541.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
犯罪被害人做一個補償幫助他來復歸這個社會可是你現在你這個累進等級你去掛鉤跟勞作金使用的一個比例這個應該去好好的做一個檢討啦你說三千啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
543.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
561.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那最高的現在多少?我們以北京來看好了,你是不是相關多少多少?北京它平均,按照我們的數據顯示它每個月大概是749塊749塊,跟你說的,三清差很多,你用700多少,北京平均?749塊你那是平均喔?相關的多少? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
570.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
574.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們有兩個數據啦一個數據是他一年的勞作金收入是7400多萬那平均下來就是749萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
586.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
605.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你是七千多萬 你把總人數你去把它除一除我現在想知道的 我當然很清楚你要拿到 你要進階到 譬如說你到二級你要關了越久以後 他比較有機會去做到更好的好像是那個報酬的一個工作人家去賣人家賺錢我們賣不賣 人家去賣比較有機會人家給你賺到這麼多作業金 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
609.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
617.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是我必須要講的就是說,那個差距過大,像比如說我到台東去啊,我去我都會問,你一個月要做多少?多少你知道嗎?讓你以後最多的多少,可以出來做的。我問的,都沒差過一百塊。 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
627.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
632.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以說你一個月在那個地方我們說要由於復歸這個社會復歸這個社會那你從作業金他領了多少我們就可以看得出來就是說他裡面做了什麼工作比較好的那些啦 什麼麵包烘焙的啦有的沒的啦 有的沒的那差不多都差不多到最後都修身養性 乖到很乖啊你知道嗎那時候我們說站在比較高的分所嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
653.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
672.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以當然那個叫結果啦 但是我們整體來看 我們怎麼樣把勞作軍如果去做一個制度的改善因為你畢竟整個勞作軍是國家跟社會 如何去看待受刑人的重要指標之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
675.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
689.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這勞動跟勞作金你要讓它復歸這個社會你如果當成是這樣子的話而不是單純是要懲罰跟一種規訓的話那你可能做法會有所不同我不知道蘇丁你的看法是什麼報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
690.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
718.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們勞作軍機關也希望能夠提高所以包括我們有一個評價會議我們評價會議也會請社會公正人士跟勞動部的勞動力發展署他對廠商比較了解來一起開會 廠商一起過來然後當然基於廠商他也希望說壓低嘛那我們希望提高所以就是折衷這樣子那問題是比如所謂的勞動 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
719.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
740.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
剛剛委員提到麵包 烘培 甚至有的是醬油工 那個就很高 那個平均大概一萬塊以上但是我們一般的勞作金沒那麼高 這確實是這樣包括他的委託作業的項目 比如說有些老人工廠他只能折那個紫蓮花 那個就少了那個施工長 署長先請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
741.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
758.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那個就少但是你如果分配到所謂的焊接工廠那個車廠的那個會比較高因為他有點技術所以可能跟委託座位的項目也是有點關係但是一般廠商能不能把高技術引進過來是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
762.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
765.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以說你們要去找什麼可以去買你找就找到蓮花 或是在消磨時間而已不是說那個不對啦有時候讓受刑人在裡面 有工作可以做啦對他心情的穩定也不是壞事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
777.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
791.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有一些比如說我們會找一些比如說提代外銷的那個算件也是錢不錯那個算是比如說外銷的我們盡量來找這種項目的啦但是也 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
792.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
807.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
跟那個景氣有關係包括說在疫情期間再怎麼找也是很難啦你這樣講署長就失去你的專業了你反而像這一種你那個技術高的到最後一定是累進儲育的級數已經又變更高了啦是不是這樣說一定是這樣啊你像比如說你那個技術含量比較高的勞作經費比較高的工作你一定是夠累進儲育我看你至少到二級以上啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
824.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
825.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
要不然你要怎麼去站在那裡?累進廚藝的級數跟委託作業的項目委員是覺得有關係我覺得有關係當然那產生的是一個結果這個應該沒有關係我會喔 我認為會喔你要好好去做一個思考畢竟這個你更專業啦我是認為啦 這樣子講啦就是說受刑人他 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
853.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
856.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
是被我們社會排除之外的國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
857.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
886.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
是這樣子嗎 是一個問號還是你把它當成它是遲早要回歸我們這個社會的一個共同體我看大法官憲法法庭也做出了一些解釋憲法法庭也好或者說國外的一個法制你看連德國聯邦憲法法院他也去提到了就是說立法者必須去法律明確再社會化的一個概念講這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
887.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
901.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
台灣的社會氛圍未必聽得下去但是你們叫做矯正機關啦你們叫做矯正機關啦那說這一個制度如何去做一個改進我覺得還是有必要我再強調一次就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
903.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
929.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
從案件發生到偵查到審判這個社會都是浮動判決確定以後隨著時間這樣子過去我們期待的是這個被法院判決的除非他已經死刑了跟這個社會永久隔離了或者他就是穿著球衣的國民他總是要復歸到這個社會我們所有矯正就是依照這樣的一個概念在運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
931.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
955.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
再去做逐步的做一個修正嘛那所以這一些齁 如果衝到那個壽星人我們去看說我給你關 關到買啊 我就看這個賣啊 我也看不去啊 我也要去欠銷啊 再讓人家小證書來給他偷錢對醫院他有他的思考對壽星人來講的話這個到底符不符合人性尊嚴的一個部分 基本的一個國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
956.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
967.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我倒認為政府可以多做點力啦是 報告委員我可以講 補充一句話嗎剛剛委員有提到那些作業是不是跟累進廚藝您認為有關係如果從這個精神來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
972.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
989.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
他確實是跟累進廚藝沒有關係但是他會跟殘行有關係因為我們要做一些出塞他要去餓這個手拉啤的麵包的他一定比如說要三鍋味還是六鍋味才會出塞嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
989.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1002.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以我們會有一個申請說你產型一定要有三個月以上或六個月以上你才能夠來參加啦但是不會限說你一定要什麼級數你已經足以達到幾級沒有 我們是用產型來篩選 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1009.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1032.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
委員那個 剛才那個委員所說的因為我們陳吳今天報告有講我們在這個累進主義制度事實上我們條例要廢止然後我們會在建議行政法修一些條文然後未來大部分的細節性的規定會用法規命令來訂定那委員今天所提示的報案簡報裡面所記載的我們都會回去納入未來我們原意改善的這個意見來參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1033.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1049.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
是啦 因為你那個各級別的差別待遇的或者說你那個整個現行的責任分數跟成績分數裡面自己都很清楚嘛那這一些本來就必須要到一併去做一個研議如何再去做修正的時候了啦 好不好是 我們都會檢討好 謝謝 |