| IVOD_ID |
16268 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16268 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
黨團協商-2024111305 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
黨團協商 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
立法院朝野黨團協商 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-14T13:30:13+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-14T18:01:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
04:30:47 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a010c4563b5e5bf20a587b1cadd1ee0b0cedb79b8bfb08e7994c507bf317d0df355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-14T14:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商「台灣民眾黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：成立『國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會』就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料，於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會，請公決案。」相關事宜。（台灣民眾黨黨團提議）二、研商有關「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」案（國民黨黨團提議）三、研商有關「113年11月6日本院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議，議事程序之爭議」相關事宜。（民進黨黨團提議）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:30:13 - 18:01:00 |
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一是促使人員聯絡各黨團,國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團怎麼還沒到? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
2056.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
2083.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好謝謝,謝謝各位黨團幹部都到了,非常感謝大家柯總召、副總召、黃總召,謝謝各位黨團幹部特別跟大家報告一下今天我們前天的協商我們確定一百一三年度中央政府總預算追加預算案的報告與詢答於十一月十九日星期二院會進行所以當天也就是第九次院會我們就尋例不處理臨時提案我們沒有異議的話我們就先通過這個好嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
2084.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
2099.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
好,非常感謝那上次協商有一個癥結點就是我們比例的問題現在我們請議事人員把所有我們精算之後的比例發到各位黨團幹部手上請大家仔細來瞭解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
2107.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
2122.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
報告院長請議事處高處長跟大家簡單報告一下我們自己精確估算的跟各位黨邊報告現在大家手上有一個黨團協商參考的第十一屆各黨團比例那我們是按照立法院主持法第三十三條規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2124.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2138.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這個本第十一屆委員在組成的時候是依照選舉結果由各選出的委員依其政黨去參加立法院的黨團那目前我們國民黨是五十二另外加那個高金還有陳超明委員加起來是黨團是五十四個 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2139.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
2143.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
民眾黨是51個,台灣民眾黨是8個因為我們的總席次是113所以除出來的商數8個是佔113的0.0751是佔0.4554是佔0.477如果說我們每次在黨團協商的時候針對院會的一些處理事項包含要組成什麼樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2162.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2173.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
一個組織或者是說要進行什麼樣發言的一個人數啊他有時候會有6個、7個、8個、9個、10個、11個等等我們這邊是用Excel去把它算出來比方說6個的話你會發現是2.87、2.71、0.42那如果是0的話當然就要先進位優先先進位就是變成1 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
2181.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2207.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
二點八七跟二點七一因為二點八七八七比七一大所以八七就優先先進會所以六個的話就變成三二一七個的話就原則上是三三一它合起來就是七個那你看如果是三十九個這麼多的話它算出來就會十九、十七、三但是因為這個是我們協商的那個草稿的比例我們會寫上去但是黨團協商的時候各黨團就如同那個之前總召也有講過說他們可以個別禮讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2209.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2220.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那個別禮讓的方式比如說他另外再去口頭禮讓或者是說想要用書面方式去禮讓這個都可以那只是說我們議事處在草擬的時候我們就是依照這個比例先寫然後讓各黨團做參考以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2223.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2249.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
各位黨團幹部我們現在議事處所您的這個各比例的數字請問各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴的意見這個是如果是奇數跟偶數是有一點點差別的是有一點差別的那請大家如果同意的話我們可以原則上照這樣子那哪一位黨團要次次次要發表一下寶貴的意見好請吳士耀幹事長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2251.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2275.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
謝謝醫師處的整理所以說如果以接續我們前天的協商針對我們不管是考試院或是大法官在審查推派15人的發言的話那就會落在政黨比例是771嘛那就是也是民進黨的主張嘛所以我們是要驗證說我們在科學的數字的試算我們是沒有算錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2280.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2302.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
黃總召您上次您提出有請發表寶貴意見簡單來講就是說各個政黨按照黨團人數的比例建立一個清楚的規則我們就按照這個規則下面來走那因為總席次會直接去影響到各個政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2304.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2314.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他實際上面可以代表的比例嗎?那所以我們在處理這件事情的時候可能以後就要從頭開始決定到底是幾個人嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2316.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2341.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個是第一個先決的問題這個先決的問題決定了以後再來處理第二個順位再來處理第二個順位的問題那所以從這樣子的角度上面來講就是說只要是按照規則下去做的我們基本上都不會有什麼太大的意見把規則把它弄清楚這樣子就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2342.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2358.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那只是說老實講啦在不同席次的部分你按照不同的席次如果是四捨五入的話有的時候進到小數點0.5以上的會稍微占一點點便宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2360.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2383.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
0.5以下的會稍微吃一點點虧這個我想數學算出來都很清楚那只是他們現在你們印出來的計算的方式就台灣民眾黨黨團來講容許我再重申一次我們要求的就是一個清楚的規則那這個規則下面來運作這樣就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2389.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2416.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
謝謝台灣民眾黨團黃國昌總召的發言接下來請國民黨團副總召請發言現在特別謝謝議事處把今天這個各政黨的席次比例以及要代表政黨之間一個總數的席次出來的時候大家按照比例來分配所以這裡要特別 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2417.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2441.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我們清楚的看到如果說禮拜二總預算追加預算的院會質詢如果是14席的話是7比6比1這很清楚因為沒有人規定一定要是15席 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2443.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2466.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以啊這個所以剛剛我有說一定是7比7比1我想這是錯誤的數字在這裡和先敘明所以接下來就是如果大家要完全照我們未來依照這個政黨比例來做各政黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2467.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2480.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
不管是職權也好還是這個派席次也好我想這個表是可以用的但是以後未來就是多少個人要上場可能我們大家要討論一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2481.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2500.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
因為這樣會影響到．各個黨所推派的．能推派的席次會有不同．所以．霍國璋和總召所．在前一次朝野協商的時候．所提出來的論點．看起來今天議事處也印證這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2502.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2527.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以到底那天是要到底下週二的院會對《總議傳》的推派質詢的人數到底是771還是761既然禮拜五已經做了上個禮拜四已經做了決定那我們就尊重當天的決定當天的決定是771嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2530.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2553.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
當天是七七一所以我們就尊重齁因為大家已經同意了但是下一次的話我們還是要看到底是總數時間上怎麼樣方便以後我們先確定總數再決定各政黨的推判的席次好不好謝謝好 傅坤祺總召不愧是精頭腦一算了清清楚楚先把總數確定再來分配好 請吳世堯幹事長二次發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2554.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2573.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
報告院長,我沒有金頭腦,我也是銀頭腦,我至少有銀的。我覺得來釐清這些生長比例非常有必要,因為大家把清楚的遊戲規則講清楚。那我分兩個層次再來補充一下說明,有利於大家未來更確立的把這個制度釐清。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2574.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2589.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第一,依照過去還有我短暫的國會經驗﹐歷次的專案報告﹐大概都是推派十五人。我以我們就這一屆好了,十一之一的會期實案專報就是十五人。 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2589.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2606.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那十一之二就是前陣子進行的電價專報其實一開始議事處預擬的也是十五人七七一但是當時在野黨有黨變認為說他們希望多一點時間十五分鐘想調成二十分鐘行不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2607.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2622.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以那時候我的發言是希望說還是回到議事規則裡面規定的每一個unit的發言是15分鐘但是如果想要增加的話所以那一次是一個特別的特例變成992但我想我們還是要調回正軌 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2623.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2648.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以十五人作為這例次的專報是一個基礎的發言的安排人數然後依著十五的分配就是如同剛剛議事處所提出的七七一那我另外也要提出另外一個計算方式的佐證來證明說七七一確實是應當是悍不可動比如說如果是以一百一十三位立法委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2650.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2678.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
的原額的席次來分派政黨比例也就是五十四比五十一比八的話他試算出來的話國民黨是七點一七民進黨是六點七七民眾黨是一點零六所以他進位之後也是七七一那如果說是以那天柯總召有提示過如果是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2684.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2699.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
政團一一三的話是用政團包含兩位無黨籍的委員才會變成國民黨是五十二加二五十四然後五十一跟八那如果是以政黨就是回歸法制說的政黨比例來算的話那麼就是一一一 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2700.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2717.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為兩位無黨籍他沒有組成一個如果他單獨的話所以會變成是五十二比五十一比八那這樣試算出來呢是國民黨七點零二民進黨六點八九民眾黨一點零八所以他的禁慰也是七七一 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2718.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2739.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我們希望藉由這個正規的機會把這樣子的一個數字的精算科學的依據包括法定的規範還有過去的慣例專報15人所以我們再次確立771是一個非常合理合適的安排那謝謝院長主持謝謝好謝謝銀頭腦我們現在請台灣民眾黨黃國昌黃總召請發言我覺得大家回到數學來算是一個好字這樣就會比較清楚一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2747.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2762.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
剛剛院長也講得很清楚從來沒有規定在計算的時候一定是1514的結果跟15的結果就不一樣了那如果我們今天真的要按照54比51比8來算的話數學算起來就是6.75比6.375比1 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2773.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2795.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
有的我再說一次五十四比五十一比八也同時除以八嘛我先跟柯總召報告一下五十四除以八等於六點七五嘛那第二個那五十一除以八等於六點三七五嘛那八除以八 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2797.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2819.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
就是一嘛那你就要看你的比到底是怎麼比嘛在不同的總額宿命之下你會有不一樣的計算結果嘛那你如果說是以最小的黨團台灣民眾黨黨團八個人嘛八個人我們不要占人家便宜就直接算一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2823.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2846.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
對阿你五十四比五十一比八你算出來的結果大概就是這個樣子阿稍微稍微等一下那剛才我看到那個國民黨團這邊誰舉手了沒有齁好阿副總統請二次發言那紅色委員請等一下我要特別強調齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2849.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2877.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個大家都在立法院啊彼此都很熟悉啊這個拜託一下柯總召本黨有多少人啊你常常給本黨團穿小鞋故意算錯本席再告訴你一次陳昌明先生是國民黨籍本黨有53本黨團有53位國民黨籍一位高金素梅是無黨籍 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2879.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2903.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
如果要拆開來用政團來看的話在立法院沒有在政團裡面的委員勢必要優先給他們質詢勢必要優先給他們質詢所以遊戲規則要講清楚所以永遠要這樣算高精素美委員他一定有他任何的質詢都要排在第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2905.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2920.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第二、如果你堅持我假裝也搞不清楚陳昌明委員若是無黨籍的話就兩位委員是要先排在政黨之前做議會的咨詢但是我們還是要講清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2921.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2950.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
高精素美委員在本黨團再過來陳朝明委員是國民黨籍所以國民黨籍有53位再加一位無黨籍在國民黨團參與運作所以我們有54位那貴黨51位所以剛剛以八做基礎並沒有錯誤因為如果說他是一的話永遠在任何質詢他是一的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2952.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2979.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那大家就除下來嘛六點七五、六點三、七五比一嘛我們從小到大學的就是四成五入嘛那如果說今天議事處給大家一個完整的一個席次跟一個比例數字出來以後啊我們可能以後就建議啦這個院長、主席這個未來可能我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2981.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2995.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
在這個院會的質詢所推派的這個代表上面﹐席次上應該是要先確認是多少席﹐多少席來推派質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2997.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3015.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
之後再決定各政黨分配的席次我想這樣會比較完整我想因為每一次都講我們黨團五十二個其實是不對的本黨有五十三位也因為高金委員是加入本黨團來運作所以是本黨還有五十四位 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3016.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3017.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
三長委員以外的都可以發言嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3044.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3057.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我完全知道王宏威首席副組長的意思因為我們黨團是幹部我們先看所以王宏威真的很因為我們現在不是法案的審查我們先確定一下我們黨團協商的好我們請柯總召好不好對不起王宏威對不起對不起好 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3067.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3083.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對不起喔我想剛才議事書也算出來了那立法院從以前到現在包括這個會期都是15個我們就這個沒有什麼好爭辯的然後你再設計一個14個人的時候這樣配一其實也不是如此啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3085.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3109.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個問題大家已經討論這樣兩輪了我覺得就這樣定了不必再說以後我們來設計一個十四個或是多少人了對哪一黨有利了過去就沒有這樣處理過去長期來就是出五個這個問題應該到這裡打住了這不是很重大重點好不好好請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總要請三次法也請 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3112.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3136.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那個柯建民總召柯總召剛剛表達了民主進步黨的立場尊重民進黨表達意見的權利人機會那只是說十五個人到底是定在哪裡我不是很清楚十五個人到底定在哪裡我不是很清楚是定在立法院職權行使法還是我們的議事規則當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3140.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3151.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
到底要有多少人這件事情本來就是各個黨團所有的立法委員大家共同決定的事項 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3153.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3179.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
黨團作為代表可以形成共識就形成共識如果不能形成共識的話我們就還是按照民主規則來踐行這個是第一點所以我尊重柯總召所講他希望是用15個人來當作計算基準表達這樣子意見的權利但是我們沒有辦法接受就是以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3181.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3202.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
就是用十五個當成是一個剛性的規則這個是前面的前提我可能必須要比較清楚的表達這樣子的立場那第二個層次的問題是說在立法院針對於行政機關我們的諮詢我們的監督台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3210.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3226.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
把時間做最有效率的使用所以把時間做最有效率的使用我們一天幾點開會預計要處理什麼事情那到下班的時間就算一算總共有多少時間嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3227.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3251.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
那在這個時間的範圍內就盡可能的看怎麼樣使用會最有效率那這件事情的處理跟這件事情的決定恐怕也不是任何一個單一的黨團當然每個黨團可以提出自己的主張其他的黨團也都要尊重其他個別的黨團提出這個主張的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3253.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3273.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
但最後要做決定的時候,恐怕也還是要大家來一起做決定所以,上一次在院長調和抵擋之下,決定771我簽字的時候,我也很清楚的跟院長表達因為上一次協商的時候,院長也說了話 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3275.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3288.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那大家都表示和諧所以我就簽了那個字但不代表說以後這個就絕對會成為一個剛性的慣例我想這個基本立場的表達還是要說明清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3292.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3316.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我就從剛才黃榮昭最後一句話和諧這個我為什麼要講這個事情呢其實從過去時代一樣我想黃榮昭也曾經在時代一樣有營運黨你問邱正元都很清楚這個數格就是長期以及我進到立法院以來就是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3317.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3345.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
就是已經形成的憲政慣例沒有寫在什麼名字沒有寫在任何的文字上這已經形成憲政慣例我們就以尊重不要笑這個是大法官常常用這個名字那這個已經這麼三十年來我在這裡都看到這樣的事情那我們今天也過去也是這樣的進行常常我就就這樣不要吵我就讓給你一個因為這個不是執行多少人並不是一個輸贏的決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3347.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3373.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
坦白講,會說的,剛才說的兩個剛才說的就很厲害所以我是覺得這個事情應該到這裡應該可以結束了因為我們在這裡能夠開始設計哪一個對國民黨最有利每一個派系在變來變去我想也不是韓院長所樂見的從以前到現在都如此那這個也不是說這個很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3374.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3389.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
甚至在委員會上也是這樣的處理我相信大家應該也你剛剛黃董大夫最後一句話我們這個題目應該到此為止就是核協議新的先進管理已經三十年來了我想是不是往下走比較重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3396.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3421.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
蔡署長您要發言阿謙我想我們用了好多的時間在討論這個發言的政黨比例事實上如果我們秘書處這邊已經有算出了這樣的一個最精準的數字那應該就是大家就用這樣的數字來做未來討論的基準那這樣就很公道而且不會在朝野協商公還沒有進入政體 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3422.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3450.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
在討論這個小數點的討論．到了感情已經抓一半所以我是覺得如果剛剛像黃國昌總召所說的他民眾黨要算一可是民眾黨為什麼要算一這一件事情事實上從秘書數的數字來說就不是這個樣子就是說他們比例上在不同人數然後再換算回去這個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3451.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3477.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
所謂這個統計學的一個算法不會有說除一幾然後這個民眾黨算一然後再去算除一幾因為人是沒辦法被區分說半個人或0.6個人所以他還是要回到統計的數字才是有意義的那我想如果我們在15人從過去我們在於質詢安排上15人然後有771的比例那大家也都同意這樣我們應該就要進行下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3479.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3507.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那過去事要委員在上一次的時候用九九二嘛對不對如果那一次的九九二是二十人的話那應該是十九一嘛所以那一次來說上國民黨也算是禮讓一個人給民眾黨不然他也不會到變成九九二的數字那所以我想這個表很好我們未來討論就用這個表做基準然後先決定人數然後再決定這個比例那大家都沒話講了好 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3509.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3526.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
借差異於書記長謝謝林思明書記長請發言是謝謝院長我想大家就這個問題不要再喋喋不休的再吵下去其實院長我們非常感謝今天我們議事處整理出這個科學的一個數字出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3527.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3553.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
所以依照這個科學的數字我們知道整個政黨的比例在我們立法院未來要分配席次都可以依照這一張來做很明確的一個規範但是我是要特別澄清一下我們十五位的一個人數本市諮詢的人數這是憲政慣例嗎我想我聽到這個我嚇一跳我們立法院是立法院自己有自治的我們立法院自己自我規定說我到底要幾個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3555.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3574.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
幾個人來做這個質詢的人數所以我想這個不是一個憲政慣例這叫我們立法院的議事慣例我想這個要澄清一下這是我們的議事慣例所以這慣例我覺得我們OK我們可以接受就依照這張科學的數據來未來排定我們的人數以上謝謝謝謝黃國昌總請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3579.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3605.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
那個剛剛參與委員所講的話我很贊成以後就先決定人數就按照那個人數來分配比例這個是一個最清楚的規則所以也不存在說一定是從十五來開始計算的問題因為我們第一句話就是先決定人數然後再從這個人數來決定比例我想這個規則把它立下來就好了至於說未來的人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3606.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3616.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
大家有不一樣的看法那都可以表達嘛那也沒有說以誰講的人數是絕對的人數我想這個原則把它建立起來就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3617.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3641.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
其實今天這個會議在進行到現在其實都很和諧也很順利大家也都就科學術來表達自己的意見也非常的好那容許我先把這個我們前天所據的一百一三零度中央政府總預算追加預算我們確定七七一這個事情我們這次先定案後續之後我們再來說好不好我們一部非常感謝各位幹部黨團幹部非常感謝接下來我們就要處理大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3642.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3662.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
人事同意權的實質問題．我們現在請議事處委完全按照各位黨團幹部上次所交代的我們草擬了A、B兩個版本A、院會時間B、委員會的時間那各位先參考這A、B兩個版本大家討論完畢以後看能不能接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3663.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3684.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
如果能夠達成共識那最好如果不能達成共識我們再來草泥看有沒有C的版本請大家參考一下我們休息三分鐘之後我們就開始請大家消化一下好不好我們休息五分鐘大家消化一下手上的資料這個就完全根據各位上次所要求的我們先休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3693.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3703.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
可不可以把上一次的協商結論放在那邊?這跟我們一樣,不一樣不一樣。這張它是不一樣的。這張可不可以議事人員補劃一下考試願和給我們?上丟的。這張是舊的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3720.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3730.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3743.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3750.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
一、民眾黨黨團提議．立法院黨團提供相關資料．立法院黨團提供相關資料．立法院黨團提供相關資料．立法院黨團提供相關資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3765.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3789.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修。．三、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3790.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3795.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．成立法院總統委員會．立法院總統委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3817.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3830.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
A版除了公聽會跟那個提問的時間跟我們不同以外其他的都一樣A版公聽會我們是定在二十五然後它是定在十二月二號 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3834.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3851.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
公聽會他的十二月二號是在這裏好我們是十一月二十五啦然後提問的位置他們比較晚他們到二十八他們到十一月二十八提問這裏二十八那我們是十八就可以提問他們是二十八才送的 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3856.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3858.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
十二月二號,其他的都一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3883.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3884.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
其他若有。﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3899.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3899.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
我們在這裡﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3921.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3925.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
與民眾黨黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3950.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3952.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3960.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3966.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
提供的資料﹚立法院黨團提供的資料﹚提供的資料﹚ |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3982.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3987.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
三十一三十一三十一三十一三十一三十一三十一三十一 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4011.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4022.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4034.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4035.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
二、研商有關 強制復讐 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4061.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4076.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．一、研商擁有公職人員選舉法部分條文修．二、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．一、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．二、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．一、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．二、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．一、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．二、研商擁有公� |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4085.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4093.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4450.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4472.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
再次感謝各位黨團幹部非常感謝在休息前請大家把這個有點時間來消化一下請各位黨團幹部就我們議事處所炒您的AB兩個版本司法院大法官人士同意權請大家對於這個時程安排有沒有寶貴意見請好請柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4480.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4498.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
就是用宴會時間那我是覺得還是用宴會時間或是用委員會時間會佔領在統一上來審查嘛那這時間都可以安排了所以我們立法院現在有提出來A版齁我們過去我們是可以接受的 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4501.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4512.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
謝謝克總召現在提出來民進黨團對於A版完全接受請問其他國民黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團能不能接受A版請黃國昌總召發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4516.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4531.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
跟院長還有其他各位黨團代表說明我們認為說就司法院人士同意權的部分召開全日委員會審查的時候盡量不要佔掉院會寶貴的時間那個院會寶貴的時間院會有院會接下來因為十一月的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4535.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4554.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
感覺起來因為有很多法案都還在協商運動期嘛那十一月的時候就把它拿來處理考試委員我們上一次在院長的說明之下就考試委員的部分我們是同意了那但是邁入啊十二月以後十二月以後你如果說佔掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4557.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4574.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
司法院人事同意權參加那麼多院會的時間變成的是我們實際上面院會可以處理其他法案的時間只剩兩天那嚴重的去壓縮到所以我們台灣民眾黨黨團認為是以B版為比較適合的時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4578.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4592.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
謝謝黃國昌總召我先跟各位黨團幹部報告一下如果用A版的話大概我們院會有兩剩下兩次的時間如果用B版的話我們院會大概是有五次左右的時間這是約估那柯總召請再發言國民黨團請準備我們大家打開天窗說這樣話 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4594.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4609.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
已經在上一次已經確定是用宴會時間那這一次用宴會時間照黃國昌委員所談的只剩兩次宴會時間還有上午還有上午也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4610.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4626.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那我知道我們也不會愚蠢到說把這個時間帳帳滿了以後讓我要面對比較比較比較大家會有衝突性的法案會不見不會處理不可能是這樣的那如果不外乎就選罷法嘛憲法訴訟嘛還有參考法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4630.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4647.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
那這個一天都夠了那其實有兩天那至於條案法案就是沒有爭議性大概就念過去很快那過去就是這樣所以這個時間你不要擔心就是說我們在設什麼局 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4648.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4669.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
該面對的我們還是要面對啦,什麼在講啊。這件事不可能像我所說的沒處理嘛,今天你在朝廷選了,委員會協商了嘛。那才有辦法乃至於選辦法嘛,都是大家要面對的。在這個我們都是很清楚,也不能是逃避,也不是把這時間將到我們,大家沒有辦法處理。 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4671.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4691.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
這一點我可以很坦白的講所以上次我講過有一天就過了一天到兩天就可以處理掉了這個我總還是比較建議啦既然前面都是恩怨會嘛那這才是怨會因為委員會一直排下來當場我們還有很多事情要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4693.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4708.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
總預算還有特別預算等等還有今年的公司預算等等都要處理我們把法定的事情再有秩序安排該面對就大家去面對那實行無論啦本來就是這樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4710.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4739.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
好 謝謝柯總召發言大家可以知道他是個光明磊落的男子漢好不好 國民黨團請發言黃國昌總統請準備謝謝院長 院長我想我們上一次絕對沒有像柯總召講的時候同意都是用院辦其實我想今天如果大家要和諧的話那我想考試院我們就尊重民進黨的意見我們就是由院會來做處理那這個司法院的審視審查我想我們尊重民眾黨的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4741.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4759.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
國民黨對司法院尊重司法院的意見其實我們看這次如果依照B版的一個排案的時程就是說我們在十一月的第三個禮拜就開始來處理我們司法院的正式審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4759.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4775.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
在第三個禮拜的院會二十六號做推薦各專家學者的審查小組名單二十七號以前提出說明問題那麼在十二月進入第一週我們就辦公聽會這個也是跟A版一樣那我們在第二週 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4776.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4798.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
第二週我們都來進行整個司法院的一個人事的一個審查用第二週來做這個全面的審查然後到了第三週我們就做一個表決我覺得這樣時程的安排呢也不會壓縮這個我們院會的事情因為院會真的有很多報告事項還有討論事項要處理所以我們利用一週 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4799.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4824.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
十二月的第二個禮拜我們來處理這個我們你們很關心的考試司法院的人事審查我覺得很妥適啦所以希望說這個民進黨能夠尊重這個我們在野黨的意見以上謝謝謝謝林思明蘇議長的發言他的重點他是國民黨團是孫悟空金箍棒可長可短可以配合考試院配合司法院謝謝接下來黃國昌總要發言請吳世堯幹事長準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4828.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4844.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
台灣民眾黨黨團第二次發言針對剛剛柯建民總召所指教的事情我們向來都是打開天窗說兩話沒有要迴避什麼事情也沒有要逃避什麼事情我們也不會用什麼資訊去度什麼致富 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4845.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4873.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
打開天中說亮話就打開天中說亮話第一個上次上次在協商的時候我覺得必須要澄清一件事情絕對沒有剛剛柯總召所說的所謂院會的時間來處理達成共識這個事情我覺得前提要先確認要不然的話我們上次不會去處理有關於考試院跟考試委員的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4875.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4896.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
也在上一次協商的時候其實我就已經主張過希望全院委員會不要去佔用到委員會的時間因為接下來要處理的法案可能除了剛剛柯總召所講的那些事情以外還有另外一個介紹的保護法那個也是到十二月的時候我們排 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4896.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4923.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
都會按照選項冷凍期過了到院會我們該處理就要處理的事所以在這樣的情況之下就有關於司法院人事同意權的部分我們還是會認為不要佔院會那麼多的時間希望把院會空下來其他該處理的法案我們就還是都要處理謝謝黃國昌總的發言吳思堯幹事長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4927.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4950.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
好謝謝院長我想民進黨團主張用院會的時間來處理原因很簡單因為我們的總預算那現在都各個委員會加緊在審議當中我們其實之前因為在協商過程當中其實就已經有七十一天沒有用嘛所以我們現在趕快也謝謝各位會確實都已經在排案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4951.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4979.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
這個會期也不是只有一個總預算我們這個會期是四大預算案要審查包括前瞻包括台電追加減還有國營事業預算所以預算案的量非常大另外呢人事同意權也還有可能明天NCC組織法處理完之後NCC的人事同意權還是要回到委員會處理還有公平會的人事同意權要回到委員會處理所以我們委員會除了要因應總預算四大預算案還有另外兩個人事案 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4980.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5006.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
所以說委員會的時間真的很緊繃那回過頭來看如果用院會的時間來審議大法官員是同意權讓院會都沒有時間處理法案的嗎?不請大家可以看一下剛剛做的這個表A版裡頭我們還有預留了12月24跟12月27兩個Four day的院會Plus三個Half day |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5007.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5031.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
三個半天的院會就是十二月十三十二月二十跟十二月三十一所以有兩個four day跟三個half day都可以處理法案以現在法案的量因為這個會期是預算會期法案的量真的沒有大家想像要清倉那麼多的法案這個我們大家都可以預估的出來所以我們也確實盤點了幾個到期 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5034.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5058.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
協商期、冷凍期可以參與表決的選罷法然後這個憲法訴訟法、裁劃法然後還有黃總召力推的監閉者保護法這個我們都預留了時間也可以處理到這個大家真的兩個四天跟三個半天絕對可以如果還不夠你可以再去加開院會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5059.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5066.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
調整一天的委員會時間加開院會也是可以的但是回過頭來講正因為我們的預算現在排審已經非常緊了 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5069.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5097.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
因為我們之前沒有辦法沒有就是復委時間拖得比較久嗎這不好意思我們現在必須面對要趕進度然後我再講還有這個人事權也要在委員會行事然後預算案前瞻追加減我相信大家都想要嚴格跟非常嚴謹的審議所以請大家這個沒有什麼沒有什麼政治的盤算沒有什麼什麼什麼的就只是單純希望讓審預算的時間不要再受影響到 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5098.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5125.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
四個預算案還有兩個委員會要審的人事統一權那你們擔心院會不夠處理法案的時間並不會發生所以再次希望就是說而且對啊我覺得這個應該很OK啦這個院長也可以採視一下我是希望透過我們的說明讓大家可以知道謝謝那個國民黨團要不要補充發言王偉維首席副書記長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5126.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5156.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
好謝謝謝謝院長再繼續再幫我們協調有關於考試院跟司法院人事同意權的問題那事實上在上一次的我們的協調會裡面我們對考試院的部分其實大家是有達成共識那但是在司法院的部分當時就是考慮到就是會不會太過佔用了這個院會的時間所以呢今天在做這個安排及考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5156.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5170.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那我也必須說我們可以看到從下個禮拜開始按照現在如果按照A版的這個安排的方式我們大概包含星期二星期五有15個15個院會的時間但是呢因為19號也安排了那個追加預算的詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5178.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5193.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
那所以其實我們比較完整的院會已經被壓縮為只有三天比較完整的院會那省預算當然很重要但是我們不能說院會不重要所以如果按照 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5194.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5199.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
A版考試院人士幾乎都占用了院會的時間,到了司法院人士也幾乎都在占用院會的時間,雖然有的好像是只留給你一個上午的時間, |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5210.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5211.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
主席﹚立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5230.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5235.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
李鴻B版所安排的在委員會召開全院委員會一氣呵成對十二月的第二周我們一氣呵成來完成審查那麼事實上我覺得對於整個的議事運作也不用把整個人事審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5250.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5255.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
拉到這麼就是哩哩啦啦可以一氣呵成的能夠完成審查我想對不管對朝野兩黨來說就是這樣重要人士的審查就是大家一定會嚴格審查而且也已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5265.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5271.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
二、研商有關法部分條文修二、研商有關法部分條文修二、研商有關法部分條文修二、研商有關法部分條文修二、研商有關法部分條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5284.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5290.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
司法院的部分我們還是留下一些完整的院會讓我們能夠做充分的來做充分的討論充分的討論會比較好一點的謝謝王文威首席副局長柯總統請繼續發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5301.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5319.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
我記得上次我們在討論這個時候就是院會要處理考試委員的同意前行使的時候也觸及到這個問題也就是說有些法案什麼要處理所以我那時候有講過就是留一下空空白的時間院會來處理那現在我讓議事處也留了兩天嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5320.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5336.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那我們今天要談的就是增加一個吹哨子保護法那雖然保護法審查報告都還沒出來但是呢那所有這一說全部來得及處理所以都不會有影響的我們有兩個兩個前天還有兩個半天 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5338.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5364.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
三個半天,兩個前天嘛。不行,韓院長,你說加開A會,我們絕對會同意的。好不好?所以這個應該是這樣的安排比較合理啦。謝謝,我綜合大家三個黨團的發言,容許我,我們根據各位的要求提出了A、B兩個版本,但是一邊堅持以院會為主,另外一邊堅持以委員會為主,但是事實上, |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5365.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5394.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
我們在調控了一個C版就是也有部分是院會也有部分是委員會沒有問題我們把C版唸給大家聽一下因為總是你多一個選擇嘛如果最後你們否決他完全沒有問題我們原本意思是這邊完全接受但如果覺得說兼顧到兩邊的擔心的問題你可以聽聽看這C版我知道你有備而來但這花下來就好不要唸了好我們先發到每一個黨團幹部手上C版 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5411.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5423.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
對各位現在在手上這個C板是完全有兼顧大家所擔憂的地方那也都做了一些去蕪存金我們請議事處的高處長唸給大家分析給大家之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5425.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5433.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
如果能達成共識,我們立刻就確定。不能達成共識,我們會休息讓大家私下討論。現在我們請稍微等一下請高處長來唸給大家聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5436.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5458.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
跟各位黨編說明西版的部分就是一個參考我們重整A版跟B版我們只是對於全院委員會的這個開會時間我們在12月10號利用一天的院會時間然後利用另外兩個非院會的時間去安排密集的審查四百年大法官那這個等一下大家還可以參考看是要怎麼去 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5459.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5483 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
去修改或是怎麼樣最主要的不同就是說我們重整有部分是院會日部分是這個非院會日然後做一個稀板那他投票日呢也是在我們這個會期結束之前12月31號前面的那一週12月24號就可以完成大法官的統一權投票以上好請柯總召請這個稀板喔黃國昌委員絕對不會答應 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5485.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5511.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
為什麼呢?因為這沒有保護法這沒有保護法現在審查報告都還沒出去所以你在十一十二月十一到十二號根本來不及一個月我是覺得這個安排有一點欠缺反而更加麻煩既然那處理就很透明的處理嘛其實大家都來得及這是一個問題那一周是那個比較少是本黨都召委啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5512.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5539.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
我是覺得這個十二、十一和十二人一個月都還沒到,那怎麼處理?怎麼處理潔癖者?所以現在院會這樣安排,現在這樣安排十二、二十四、二十五那節約來得及。所以柯總召您對11版是保留的?協商一下好不好?好,了解。那個黃國昌總召剛剛柯建民總召非常關心你,你請發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5540.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5563.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
我覺得第一個是柯總召是我們立法院的老前輩大家都很尊敬他只不過說尊敬歸尊敬我覺得各個黨團就表達自己的看法就好了先去說其他的黨團一定會如何如何恐怕也漸越了發言的分際自己的看法就講自己黨團的看法就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5564.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5577.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
原則上台灣民眾黨黨團認為用委員會B版是比較好但如果說最後不得已要用C版來當作共識的結論的話那剛剛柯總召 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5580.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5608.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
的預設恐怕有點錯誤必須要更正若院長出面調核點用C版的話台灣民眾黨黨團可以免予同意因為我們總是協商嘛院長都拿出C版的那我們就C版大家各退一步用院長拿出來的C版我們可以免予同意但是如果大家還是要固執即建的話那我們還是認為用B版是比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5608.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5616.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
好的,我們現在台灣民眾黨表達說,如果C版當然達成共識,台灣民眾黨完全支持,國民黨團請發言,蔡依瑜書記長請準備,對不起,事由岡長,因為蔡依瑜她先舉手,國民黨團請表達意見。 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5625.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5644.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
是謝謝院長院長我對C版是把就是其中第二週就其中一天的委員會跟院會就做對調就是還是連續三天再做審查所以我想這樣的設計我想我們基本上我們也是同意我們就尊重院長這樣的一個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5647.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5667.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
若是在九、十、十一這三天星期四接避者保護法你有沒有算到那天你來做黨來講你這部分你是不是你自己看沒有稍微等一下因為蔡易瑜剛才蘇議長準備發言好的你表達你的立場就好沒問題我們現在請蔡易瑜蘇議長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5674.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5695.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我想因為我們接下來的這個距離這個會期的時間真的是不多那有總預算然後有追加預算有前瞻預算有這麼多法案要處理那如同我們在上一次協商的時候大家都講到說基本上如果你排委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5696.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5721.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
大家會在委員會處理。」那如果你這個全院委員會的時候基本上很多人都是說輪到質詢的時候才要去沒有質詢的話他可能在忙別的事所以那天我們院長也說希望多一點人到場聆聽嘛所以有這樣的一個前提所以我們還是主張說A版的好處就是我們在院會而且我們是用下午排全院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5722.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5723.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
《國安法案》《國安法案》 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5739.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5760.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
委員會沒有辦法跟這個全院委員會同時同時召開所以就會浪費的委員會而且就我這樣我剛剛了解一下如果以這個十二月九就是吸版的這個全院委員會那一週那一週勒幾乎都是民進黨在擔任召委的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5761.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5778.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
所以我們民進黨我們希望說我們要處理預算所以我們會積極的要去排預算所以如果要排全院委員會是國民黨跟民眾黨希望用這個委員會的時間來排全院委員會的話那是不是可以避開這一個禮拜 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5783.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5811.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
所以蔡書長你一定是說避開十、十一、十二我們是主張A啦因為A版的話它的好處就是說委員會還是可以繼續召開嘛因為委員會跟院會跟全院委員會沒有辦法同時召開那確實會浪費了委員會的時間了解所以我覺得A版還是比較好然後如果他們有重要的法律案基本上都還有半天的時間所以我覺得A版才是真的是比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5811.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5835.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
蔡書記長還是一樣堅持A版請黃國昌總召請二次發言我想可能等一下請議事同仁稍微說明一下全院委員會在排會的時候按照我們過去這幾年所出現的狀況是不是全院委員會一開其他委員會就沒有辦法再開 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5837.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5846.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
2016年以前似乎是這樣但2016年以後似乎就不是這個樣子了那是不是可以請議事的同仁稍微說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5848.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5875.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
來我們請高處長來請跟大家報告過去全院委員會在召開期間各常設委員會的召委原則上會蠻尊重全院委員會所以他就會不會去排相關案子但是在上一屆的時候因為常設委員會有一些特別的案子召委覺得要趕快排所以他就在全院委員會期間也就排了常設委員會的這個特定議程其他委員會就有時候不排 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5875.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5901.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
那這最主要是因為涉及到那個常設委員會的召委跟全院委員會之間他的那個時程安排那我們全院委員會主要是進行一些審查會議有些都是預定好名單了那常設委員會的話就是個別議案啊所以這個最主要是過去已經有不一定是這樣子那所以這一次如果大家有決定要某某事的話全院委員會什麼當然是可以做按照過去的方式去加以考慮以上報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5902.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5922.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
我們高處導演跟大家報告完,好,請柯總召請再發言。議員會、前院委員會都是很清楚,還有那個各委員會都很清楚,立法院的組織法規定很清楚。民進黨三十年如一日啊,就從來不會,即便我們少數多數都不會破壞這個規矩。 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5923.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5952.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
那上一屆當然有那時候在野黨有一兩次他們就破了這個規矩但是我們還是堅持回到原來本來就應該怎麼樣就是怎樣你去查可以去查資料或許我們不管在野或者執政都是一樣都一定遵守這個不是要所常常講的我們要照規則來是不是這樣我想這個是顛覆不破的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5954.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5954.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
我們休息五分鐘,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6757.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6761.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
再次感謝各位黨團幹部經過我們休息時間的討論我們現在針對這個C版的這個我們大概達成共識三個黨團幹部都已經達成共識我們就請高處長把12月11號調到12月18號 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6785.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6798.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
審查大法官十二月十二號調到十二月十九號那十二月十號我們就審查院長跟副院長大致上是這樣請高處長再整體再念一遍讓大家更清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6800.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6815.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
按照剛剛這個院長的裁示對我們會議按照剛剛院長的裁示原則上我們C版的12月10號院會日是來舉行全院委會的第一天那另外原來C版的11跟12我們就往下移到18跟19 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6817.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6840.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
這兩天那我們的大法官同意權的記名投票因為要間隔十天所以有可能就是要拉到31號那我會按照這個版本先寫出一個想要結論跟付表然後再給大家看來請黃國昌總統請發言院長不好意思我對您沒有不敬的意思但是剛剛在講的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6842.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6848.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
是說你如果往下拉會多動到31號沒有啦本來是24號嘛對啊所以你就會影響到31號那天本來會開的院會嗎我有說錯嗎31號哪一本來就大法官啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6878.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6881.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
不是啊,那我就沒有要答應用A版嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6895.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6909.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
方才如果按照把十二月十一號十二號這兩天是拉到十八十九因為我們同意權的法律規定就是全院委會審查完必要有個十天的等待期才能夠進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6910.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6933.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
這個院會的記名投票如果大家有共識拉成十八十九那那個投票日呢大法院會變落在十二月三十一日那如果說大家不想要十二月三十一要讓到二十四日的話那你的全院委員會的審查最後結束就變成是要往前大概是這樣子好請好謝謝黃總長我們高層回答現在請柯總統發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6938.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6954.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我們本來提出來的大法官的同意前行事就是全部有宴會那個也是大法官投票還是31號根本沒有影響這還是一樣A版的A版加起來還是沒有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6956.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6974.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
也是三十一號嗎?一樣的啦。但是如果說調到十二月四號跟十二月五號的話,就可以在二十四號投票。黃國昌總召的重點在這裡。沒有,我剛才A版也是三十一號嘛。那沒有影響嘛。 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6977.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6996.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
對還是三十一號沒有參與選舉一般還是三十一號不是三十一號嘛那各位黨團幹部如果看大家有沒有其他寶貴的意見如果統合都達成共識我們五十一號暫時我們就暫時不發言好不好我們先確定一下如果大家能不能同意如果能同意我們先把這個確定下來黃榮昭請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6998.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
7022.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
不好意思喔我還是認為31號留下來開院會剛剛柯建民總召說是按照他們民進黨團本來希望的A版31號沒有影響嘛對啊那但問題是我們一開始就沒有同意A版韓院長拿出來的是A版不好意思我可以講話嗎沒問題可以柯董請繼續發言黃董導沒問題請 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
7025.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
7046.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我說我們要的是B版剛剛我說得很清楚了那我說院長挑喝頂賴拿出C版我們雖然不滿意但是院長挑喝頂賴拿出C版我們可以同意那不管是B版還是C版投票就是在24號沒有任何的變動 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
7052.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
7081.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
B版也好C版也好都是在二十四號投啊換句話說黃國昌總統就是不同意三十一號投票簡言之你只同意二十四號投票這你的最終你的立場就對了黃國昌幹事長請發言我講一下我講講當然黑院長拿出來的A版是三十一號那我們今天就是說這樣一個大家折衷結果是A加B加C的總合體 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
7082.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
7101.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
那是最圓滿的嘛沒有一定要在二十四號去投到法官嘛都是A加B加C嘛而可能A也是韓議長已經提出來了雖然民進黨也提出這樣的所以我只覺得這個地方大家不要堅持啦反正大家一個原則我希望韓議長也很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
7102.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
7131.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
因為前院委員會要業會時間不可開,委員會就先確定,然後我們在這裡把所有事情做好,一定過了,時間太多了,如果要加開都無所謂,重點是將來副分局總長要比較,要一直跟我們在談的說什麼時候修會,要開到什麼時候,那是我們後世再談吧,我們總是要把所做該做的事情做完, |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
7133.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
7147.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這輪可以開到一月二十四號那我希望大家這題不要談這題不要談傅坤吉總召發言然後吳世耀幹掌請準備好請 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
7153.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
7181.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
其實啊這個因為柯總召過去常常這個法律無邊都會偷天換日所以常常會有一些怪招所以也不要怪在野黨知道你法律無邊常常會有出一些奇奇怪怪的事情所以大家才會說要把院會多留一些時間下來真值點就在這裡那在這裡呢其實我剛剛已經講很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
7183.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
7195.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
有沒有院會可以處理法案就是端看我們研會要演到什麼時候研會要演到什麼時候就有多少個禮拜五或禮拜二可以來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
7197.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
7222.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
甚至我也擔心這個國家的總預算最後時程會來不及全部都要審查完所以甚至我們也跟高處長意思是說高處長也在討論如果一月二十五號國家就已經放年假了我們只能開到一月二十四號的研會 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
7224.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
7231.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
萬一處理不完呢是八十九號禮拜六禮拜天國民黨團都同意來加開院會來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
7235.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
7261.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
最好是也乎我們不曉得提了多少案柯總召到時候就高抬高抬貴手大家提案就同意就好了就不要來表決就可以省很多時間所以現在就是說如果我們對研會的事情我想就也請求院長可能最短的時間把研會的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
7262.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
7279.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
能夠來確認因為很多的委員現在都在擔心這個會不曉得看到什麼時候那大家的所有的地方或者是很多的schedule都沒有辦法排所以我覺得重點重點我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
7284.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
7302.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
各種方面不要這麼堅持吧考試權跟考試院的人事同意權跟這個大法官人事同意權我們都配合了嘛對不對那雖然都沒有來拜訪過我們我們都同意審查了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
7303.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
7313.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
事實高度善意時間不要這麼堅持反正照表操課大家一定會順利完成好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
7315.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
7316.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
黃總召請發言克總召請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
7348.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
7361.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我...我剛本來是想建議啦大家有一些想法嘛就是要休息三分鐘但我尊重院長院長覺得不要休息講下去也可以再講下去我就重申我的立場24號投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
7364.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
7393.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那個我跟副總召報告一下下一次草野協商我們來確定研會到幾月幾號我覺得這個很多委員要做他們這個明年一月份的行程他們心裡也會比較有一個底否則對立法院也不公平這個我們接受副總召剛才的建議下一次草野協商我們來敲定研會到幾月幾號好不好柯總召我們現在休息三分鐘您要先發言嗎還是休息三分鐘無事要幹要休息三分鐘還是你先發言好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
7395.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
7396.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
我們先來休息三分鐘。 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
7429.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
7435.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
每天破三個種招,折磨著。現在呢?我本來無關清秀,被你們折磨了,現在無關真理了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
7444.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
7451.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
以為要一起來討論人家說隔牆以後不是一棟椅靠過來的不是隔牆 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
7472.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
7481.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
7487.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7516.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
是否必須提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7519.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7533.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
二、研商擔任國務委員會主席二、研商擔任國務委員會主席二、研商擔任國務委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
8117.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
8119.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
好 謝謝黨團幹部感謝我們私底下大家又討論得很密集那接下來請吳思瑤幹事長請發言副分局總召請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
8138.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
8158.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
謝謝院長今天多次的休息就是因為讓我們三黨能夠好好磋商大家定下來大家都有心趕快來行使司法院人士同意群我想這個沒有問題就只是使用的是院會的時間還是委員會的時間那我們是對於剛剛的A加B加C的共同折中版 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
8159.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
8179.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我們是就OK大家既然寫相好就希望能夠來處理所以如果是A加A、A加B加C的這種版就是會把十一月十八號啊對不起十二月十八跟十二月十九兩天拉拉來作為全院委員會大概是做這個調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
8180.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
8197.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
那整個行使的同意權的投票的表決也因為要十天來做審查報告所以他必須落在司法院的同意權的進行投票是在十二月三十一號那這樣是一個兼顧在院會跟委員會時間的橫評 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
8198.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
8214.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
民進黨團是可以支持這樣子的一個折衷版那我是誰也想要就如果是採這個幫這個版本的話那還是要提醒一下群議委員會的開會的時候常設委員會到底能不能開 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
8215.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
8216.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
民進黨在多數的時候有破了這個慣例。我來做一下這個說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
8232.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
8256.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
依據我們挑出來是議事處提供的資訊．全院委員會開會時．網曆、常設委員會是都不召開的這個是慣例．也是大家都遵循的一個模式那上兩屆．第九屆跟第十屆．確實有人破了這樣子的慣例那是誰呢需要我 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
8258.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
8277.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
來做一個報告嗎?第九屆九之二之一全院委員會進行司法院院長、副院長、大法官公聽會的那一周安排委員會也召開的是內政委員會的陳昭明委員張偉陳昭明張偉財政委員會的賴士寶張偉司法委員會的許淑華張偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
8284.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
8307.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
在九之二之一同樣也是那一次會另外還有陳學聖委員在教育文化委員會也召開了常設委員會這都是在第九屆行使司法院院長、副院長、大法官、公聽會的時候常設委員會破例召開的我剛剛唱明的這些召委們是哪一個黨我想大家都可以辨識 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
8308.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
8324.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
那至於在第十屆進行監察委員同意權的行使的時候同樣使用了委員會的時間來召開全院委員會那長壽委員會破例來召開的召委是誰呢是未還委員會的另外一周委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
8325.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
8352.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
所以我就很據實我不喜歡疑問答問我不喜歡把話含在那裡好像指涉別人那既然有人指涉誰壞的規矩我就必須清楚地去調出議事資料那是哪些委員擔任召委的時候在全委員會審查的時間還破例去召開委員會那這些召委不好意思都是國民黨的委員但我們希望以後都不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
8353.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
8363.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
好,因為剛才有人問,我就需要回答,那我們希望說A加B加C的折衷版,希望院長才是,謝謝。好,謝謝吳思堯幹事長發言,接下來請傅昆吉總召請發言。 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
8376.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
8403.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
我是這樣建議啦因為不管是柯總召的A版或是民眾黨的B版我覺得還是尊重一下院長好不好尊重院長的C版萬一你們大家都還有意見民進黨還有意見我們來搞一個D版好不好ABCD的D啦D版是什麼東西我講一下啦D版 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
8405.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
8428.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
就是剛剛柯總召還有吳士耀幹事長一直唸唸有詞說這個十二月四號或五號或十一號十二號這兩周當中如果排在十一十二號多是民進黨當召委會影響到他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
8431.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
8460.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
那我們現在如果改到四號五號的話對二十四號的院會投票就滿十天可以很順暢的來進行那我們是不是建議啦啊你們真的就在計較說有幾個召委那很簡單嘛國民黨團願意來一個低板嘛啊你們如果是在四號五號這周 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
8463.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
8481.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
有哪幾個召委國民黨團要跟你們換的也可以嘛來跟你們換嘛讓你們當召委這樣可以的嗎那所有的問題都解決了嘛那所有的問題都解決了嘛你不是堅持你們要排案要審查那我們讓你排案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
8483.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
8512.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
暗中牛尼請你啊!對不對?我們就24號來儘快解決不過還是要強調一下柯總召你是執政黨在立法院的大頭目我要特別講今天是不管是考試院的同意權還是司法院的同意權總不會說在野黨比你還急吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
8513.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
8527.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
二十四號就審查完畢．比較好．還是三十一號審查完畢．如果早一點審查完畢．不是好事嗎那剛剛吳思瑤跟蔡依怡兩位委員一直在 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
8528.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
8548.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
我那個算盤都拿出來在算齁到底那個禮拜是誰當召委誰在召委國民黨幾席民進黨幾席沒有關係那都可以談啦請你啦我們就趕快讓這個投票趕快定下來因為這個是議題已經討兩個小時了執政黨執政黨的格局嘛不要那麼計較嘛好不好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
8550.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
8571.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
好,謝謝心胸寬大的傅坤吉總召,願意割肉餵硬了。好,我們現在柯總召。我不做盧士官啦,什麼心胸寬大的,扁來扁去啦。因為大家都談得很清楚了,我們為什麼一直主張委員會時間不要去用到,這只要總算審查。 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
8572.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
8590.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
所以這個審查大家都了解民進黨有一個招委是民進黨一個招委是國民黨歷年來國民黨都不排都到十二月快到十二月底前年我還用抽出金惡毒我現在講很嚴肅的事情後來用抽出金惡毒所以我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
8597.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
8619.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
剛才大家都講這個事情然後再翻來再翻A版、B版、C版、D版我是覺得不宜啦民運動都用來講齁在野議席跟在野主席查解一百大關統議前都是一樣的意思沒有提到那種程度這樣大家都會投給啊不可能嘛所以這個事情喔 院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
8621.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
8646.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
你...有能力處理因為...你才就是...大家...他就剛才就講過他...他就講過嘛A版B版他都可以嘛我們就...我們是A版嘛啊既然這樣的話不要再...不要再...回來回去不...那...那就好了啦其實都一樣啦沒什麼差沒有 你現在要...你現在要搞一個EF出來 院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
8648.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
8672.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
一格就是沒有效益我們都很開誠布公在談事情我這邊沒有藏任何東西都故意到各黨立場你現在很奇怪說什麼早一個禮拜或晚一個禮拜這個大灣同意權行使都沒差 都沒差那要怎麼給那是想看看嘛好 謝謝柯總統現在請黃國昌總統要請發言黃國昌總統發言完畢以後我就嘗試做個結論了好請 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
8677.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
8683.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
其實我覺得我們在討論一些事情的時候我盡量避免把立法院裡面的事情個人化 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
8684.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
8711.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
因為個人化就不好了就變成好像是在對人不是在對事我前一輪發言的重點是什麼我前一輪發言的重點是說全院委員會召開的時候是不是絕對不能排委員會我在討論的是對事所以我為什麼不談人當初會這樣子運作當初會這樣子運作就已經形成了這樣子的狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
8712.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
8730.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
那你如果要把這個事擴及到人那話也不能只講一半2016年10月20號的時候那個時候是全院委員會全院委員會那時候也有兩個常設委員會的召委開會 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
8731.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
8759.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
那兩個常設委員會的專委一位是趙天寧委員一位是游美女委員阿我想是什麼黨籍的就不用講了沒有關係啦大家有各自的資料我在那邊講話對還是不對就查立法院公報就好了嘛但重點我還是要拉回來我們討論事情就討論事情你如果把它變成人的問題就傷感情了那傷感情就破壞了 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
8761.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
8787.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
院長的一番苦心因為院長在協商的時候我深刻感受到你的苦心希望能夠和諧一點能夠和諧一點大家往下走所以我還是回來台灣民眾黨認為比較好的版本是B版是B版院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
8789.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
8814.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
拿出了C版的條和我們說體諒院長的苦心也可以接受也可以接受那所以如果最後大家都希望院長裁那就請院長準備好的C版就拿出來裁這個C版如果院長裁C版台灣民眾黨是可以同意的 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
8818.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
8841.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
你那個C版經過討論大家都定掉了東西啊這個事情沒有什麼好爭辯的這是A加B加C最大公務處他們吵了幾禮拜謝謝柯總長那個那個副國務卿總長剛才講的是說如果定下來的話那個召委會期的話國民黨這邊也願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
8846.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
8871.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
也願意在十一號、十二號換召集委員．我知道,我確定一下是這樣,是不是?委員這個案子我們已經談了兩個小時了我想先做兩個小結論一個就是說以後全院委員會委員看召開的時候還是呼籲各常設委員會盡量停止召開,這第一點就呼籲大家停止召開,好不好?第二個就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
8875.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
8900.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
對,都有舉例嘛,所以我再一次呼籲。第二個就是說,我們下一次朝夕協商的時候,我們納入研會的討論,這個就多了一個緩衝,也讓大家心裡的壓力可以降低一點,因為我們還必要是要研會,研多長,到時候我們再決定。所以這一次針對司法院人事、大法官的人事同意權,我嘗試性的來做一個綜合大家的共同意見,請大家聽聽看。 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
8901.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
8919.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
如果大家同意,我們就照我所宣告,我們這樣就確定了。那這個,我們在十一月二十六號考試院的時候,十二月二號,我們,一樣我們就十二月十號, |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
8920.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
8947.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
十一號十二號開全院委員會那國民黨團剛才所跟所承諾出來的那再請副空級總召林思明這個書記長回去後跟蔡宇宇跟吳思耀幹人來協調十二月十號全院委會十一十二月十一號十二號全院委員會我想我們就照這個定下來那剛剛蔡宇宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
8949.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
8975.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
書記長所擔心關切的那個召集委的副科技總召跟林世民書記長上會之後跟民進黨團來進行協調當新期當會期的召委由誰來當主席好不好這你們私底下我們現在是目前在院裡面常會協商第二個哩我們就定召C版的就是二十四號進行司法官、大法官人事統一選 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
8976.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
8997.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
好不好?你自己提出案子你也不堅持這是我提的C版你第一個提出來的是什麼?是12月31號嗎?柯總長我跟你報告我沒有提任何A版B版是上一次會議大家所提的民進黨所提的A版 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
8999.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
9015.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
臺灣民眾黨所提的B版我現在放在大家手上但是我擔心沒有辦法達成共識所以我今天提出來這個C版純粹是建議我沒有提三十一號表決我先報告這一點跟連五十一號都點頭了就是根據你們上次所提的我講的是A版 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
9016.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
9036.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
臺灣民眾黨所提的我提出的是A跟B但是我擔心沒有辦法達成共識因為有占到院會時間也有占到委員會時間所以今天我提出來這個C版這裡面的表決時間也是12月24號可能你知道我講話一定是一以貫之請不要誤會我為什麼一定要12月24號把表決全部打通這邏輯是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
9040.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
9067.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
因為我們如果十號十一號十二月四號和十二月三十一號這個各種堅持一定要二十四號來出於大法院統一選舉因為這個就是十天的建議七天、二十二月三十一號差在什麼地方其實我們就是照這個表所排的就這樣定下來因為我覺得這個事實上讓你心頭而已啦我...好,休息三分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
9069.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
9079.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
我們先把這部分講如果那樣的話你們就召集人當先前副委員長同樣的樣子來那沒有你才溝通嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
9095.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
9123.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
不要說,因為他們堅持,要不然就寫上去他堅持十二次嗎?他現在堅持二十二次,如果三十二度他就寫上去,等到下一次照意思處理因為他還是覺得寫上破裂了嘛,我們搞了兩個小時,打結論是破裂何苦來猜勒我今天有一個問題,總統提名十二次啊,一定要在那邊表明什麼意思嗎?他就堅持,他沒有把他寫的話講出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
9430.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
9432.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
好,我再,謝謝各位黨團幹部我們已經,這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
9438.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
9464.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
謝謝大家我們大法官人事同意權的時程安排我們討論兩個多小時了我想現在再嘗試做一個結論拜託各位黨黨幹部仔細請聽十二月十號十一號十二號我們全議委員會那十二月二十四號第十四院會上午我們針對司法院同意權案進行記名表投票表決好嗎好謝謝大家我們進入下一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
9475.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
9481.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
好,我們現在進行,好,謝謝,謝謝兩位總召大家,兩位總召謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
9488.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
9515.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
謝謝兩位總召兩位總召加起來已經一百三十歲了拜託閉嘴謝謝主席在主持會議謝謝柯總召謝謝黃總召謝謝好我們現在由台灣民眾黨黨團建請院會作成決議成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
9518.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
9539.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
聽證會請公決案。」相關事宜。．我們歡迎國家發展基金會副主任委員．高副主任委員．高副主委．現在你．現在你．好,謝謝．好,謝謝高副主委．歡迎您．高副主委．好,謝謝．再來第二位國家發展基金管理委員會．副執行秘書．業副執行秘書．歡迎您．請坐 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
9541.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
9557.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
第三位我們歡迎經濟部產業發展署楊署長歡迎您請坐第四位金融管理監督委員會銀行局周副組長歡迎您第五位政見期貨局陳簡主任秘書陳主任秘書歡迎您好謝謝我們請 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
9570.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
9587.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
一、我們現在協商本院台灣民眾黨黨團為合理監督國家國發基金使用規劃,確實了解國家產業發展策略與投資評估,以保障納稅人之權益與國家資源,建請院會作成以下決議。 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
9589.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
9604.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會要求國家發展委員會及行政院國家發展基金管理委員會等有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
9607.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
9625.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
與必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會．以落實國會監督保障納稅人之權益。」二、本案經一百一三年七月十六日立法院第十一屆第一會期第二十二次院會決議交付黨團協商．並由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商。三、 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
9630.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
9648.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
本案經由一百一三年十一月五日由黃國昌總召召集黨團協商因當日協商仍然無法達成共識因此主席才是依立法院相關規定來處理我們先請黃國昌總召台灣民眾黨代表請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
9651.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
9675.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
這個案子其實相當的單純之前我們就已經依照立法院職權行使法提案但那個時候剛好憲法法庭在做解釋的期間那我們就等憲法法庭的結果出來那憲法法庭的結果出來當然對裡面的結果跟部分的解釋我們感覺到遺憾遺憾歸遺憾那我們就繼續要往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
9676.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
9693.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
所以就調查委員會的部分就調查委員會的部分跟聽證會舉行的部分那我們就按照現行沒有被我們的憲法法庭宣告違憲的條文就繼續往下走那這個提案其實相對而言就是比較單純 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
9695.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
9714.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
我們接下來就完全按照有關立法院職權行使法跟憲法法庭最後宣告的結果這調查委員會是可以組成調查委員會可以組成了以後我們該做的事情做至於說其他的來了以後不可以要他提供東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
9716.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
9741.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
說謊我們也沒辦法那也沒有辦法因為我們憲法法題最後的結論是這個樣子但我覺得這個案子我們提案這個有關於國家發展基金相關的過去所發生的一些狀況非常多的人民大家都還是很關心所以我們一本初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
9742.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
9753.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
也過了協商冷凍期現而法庭的判決也出來了那我們就依照最後的結果這件事情還是要繼續往下走以上先簡要的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
9755.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
9762.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
好,謝謝黃國昌總召接下來請蔡易瑜書記長請發言好,謝謝主席那針對民眾黨黃總召剛剛的發言那他要針對這個國發基金來做這個調查委員會那基本上我們從 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
9776.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
9801.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
院會的這個決議他說要求國家發展委員會及行政院國發基金管理會就有關機關就有特定事項涉及事項提供相關調查資料那這個特定是議案特定議案到底是什麼這個我想從這個提案裡面是不清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
9802.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
9825.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
那從大法官解釋729號他強調雖然那是調閱委員會可是跟調查委員會基本上他精神是一致的他認為說你要調閱調查委員會的話你必須要目的跟範圍均屬明確之特定議案所以目的跟範圍都要明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
9827.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
9852.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
都要明確而且還會涉及到說是不是有訴訟中是不是已經在偵查中這個就是在憲判之第九號也有處理到這樣的一個提案他對於國發基金好像是國發基金全部的投資都是弊案可是國發基金事實上還是有一些成功的投資因為國發基金也是有賺錢的不能說有賠錢的就是弊案 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
9853.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
9879.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
有賺錢的就不是弊案。」我覺得這邏輯上這個不對而且如果以大法官釋字729號所接觸的這個精神你的調查你的目的你的範圍必須要先明確然後才有這個特定議案那我們從這樣看起來所列舉的就好多甚至在委員會的時候還有講到了這個凌日攻擊凌日攻擊的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
9880.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
9908.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
也不在這個整個案由裡面可是在介紹的時候還有講到零日公職所以看起來這樣的一個調查委員會就變成包山包海那我這也不符合調查委員會必須屬於特定事項而且這個特定議案必須要明確的一個原則那以上是我的意見謝謝蔡宇宇署長的說明林思敏委員發言然後周安倍委員請準備好不好好謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
9909.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
9919.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我想我們本黨是支持成立這個調查委員會就國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職的事項來這個成立調查委員會我想剛才參與書記長 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
9926.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
9943.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
認為說這個特定議案是指什麼議案其實我們從這個他成立的一個委員會的性質就可以看得出來主要就是針對國家發展基金不當投資及管理失職的相關的一個弊案 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
9944.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
9960.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
來成立調查委員會。」所以這沒有所謂的這個包山包海的問題只要這個投資的相關的這些公司如果沒有不當投資也沒有管理失職這就不在我們調查委員會調查的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
9962.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
9987.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
所以我想這個民進黨的顧慮是多餘的我想我們立法院會依照相關的我們職權行使法我們憲法裁判所規範的相關的一個法律的規定來成立調查委員會也會做出真相的一個調查讓我們民眾來充分了解我們的國發基金的投資案件到底有哪些是有不當 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
9988.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
9994.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
還有什麼人有失職的地方我想民眾有自的權利所以我們非常支持成立調查委員會以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
9994.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
10024.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
好謝謝林思明署議長的發言接下來鍾嘉斌委員召委請表達意見好謝謝我想這一次一一三憲判九已經很清楚的對於立法院職權行使法以下簡稱立職法在經歷我們上會期的修法之後已經對於部分條文宣告違憲那其中呢最核心的就是從四十五條開始所謂的調查的權的行使我們先回到憲判九他所說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
10025.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
10043.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
所謂的四十五條之第一項立法院就其憲法職權行使之特定議案有重大關聯之四項且有調查之必要者使得涉調查委員會那所謂的立法院的職權在憲法第六十三條很清楚我們立法院有議決法律案 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
10044.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
10074.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
預算案以及戒嚴案大赦案宣戰構合條約等等當然還有其他的國家重大事項那麼因為就本案的標題他要成立的是一個國發基金會這是一個明確的基金但是是認為有不當投資及管理失職是認為顯有不當投資或管理失職要去了解他有沒有這個事情我們成立了調查委員會那因為會涉及到特定的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
10075.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
10090.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
所以要求提供必要的調查資料。」首先我們要看立法院我們的六十二條條文當中所謂的國發基金的不當投資及管理失職是關涉到哪一條法律案哪一項的預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
10090.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
10119.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
或許如果說是要對於國發基金未來在預算審查當中我們必須就他基金的使用去要求了解那就明確的就我們即將進行的預算審查當中立法院繼續行使憲法第六十二條法定職權審查預算案有必要的話那我們可以很清楚的指明是國發基金過去的哪些預算執行讓我們有必要在未來預算審查的時候進行調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
10120.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
10130.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
接下來我們來回顧一下歷史法的通過跟演變其實我們原來在歷史法修法前我們第八章是文件調閱之處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
10136.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
10157.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
那現在呢我們修改後是第八章是調查權之行使叫調查範圍就不設定是原件調閱這當然是一個就大家來講立法院的調查權是往前進的但是原來呢我們委員會呢是第九章是委員會辦理公委員會公聽會的舉行以至於有現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
10158.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
10184.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
第九十一章聽證會之舉行。」那我們看一看聽證會的九十一章聽證會之舉行它有分成各委員會就指現在立法院的各委員會還有調查委員會根據第八章調查權之行使成立的調查委員會所交付的議案那因此這裡面涉及到的我們剛剛提到了因為這裡面還提到我們的這個主案文當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
10185.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
10206.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一行使聽證會那所以顯然的這有兩個要件第一個先必須根據第八章立法院在行使哪一項憲法六十二條的職權我們有必要去成立一個調查權之行使成立一個調查委員會然後我們才能根據第九之一章聽證會之舉行去進行調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
10211.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
10237.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
為審查院會交付資金案開始進行聽證的。．所以我們希望在這個部分還是要續名如果說沒有辦法指明是基於哪一項預算案的審查或者哪一項立法院職權的行使所必要要成立一個調查委員會我們當然無由的來成立至於如果調查委員會無由成立當然就沒有根據我們新訂的第九十一章 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
10238.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
10250.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
我們聽證會是舉行第五十九條之一去進行調查委員會為了受理院會交付的議案去進行必要的聽證會以上先做這樣的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
10256.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
10283.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
暫停一下我們這個不當國家發展基金不當黨團這個討論針對剛才大法官時程的協商草稿現在已經完成我念一下請各位黨團幹部請聽一下如果可以我們就進行簽字立法院黨團協商結論時間一百三點十一月十四日星期日下午兩點地點紅樓二零一會議室決定事項一十二月二日星期一舉行司法院人事同意權 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
10284.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
10304.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
案的公聽會．由各黨團推薦學者專家代表七位,國民黨團推薦三位,民進黨黨團推薦三位,台灣民眾黨黨團推薦一位,各黨團審查小組委員一一上述的比例推派委員組成, |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
10306.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
10328.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
名單請於十一月二十六日星期二中午十二點之前送交議事處會診欲時適同放棄二、十二月二日星期二改開全院委員會並於十一日星期三、十二日星期四合併為議事會十二月十號星期二上午審查司法院院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
10329.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
10357.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
被提名人下午審查司法院副院長被提名人十二月十一日星期三及十二日星期四審查大法官被提名人每位被提名人各由七位委員進行詢答由國民黨團推派三位民進黨團推派三位台灣民眾黨黨團推派一位代表進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
10359.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
10387.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
名單請於十二月九號﹐星期一中午十二點前﹐送交議事處會診。欲時視同放棄。尋答順序依例授權議事處辦理。審查完畢之後﹐於十二月二十四日﹐星期二院會上午﹐行使同意權案記名投票表決。三、上述行使同意權案投票時﹐司法院長﹐ |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
10389.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
10395.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
副院長及五位大法官被提名人並為一張同意權票 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
10398.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
10422.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
四、有關行使司法院長、副院長及五位大法官被提名人同意全案相關事務及時程詳如副表五、各黨團如果有關司法院院長、副院長及大法官被提名人之書面問題請於十月二十八日星期四中午十二點前送至議事處會診 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
10428.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
10439.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
自被提名人．以立後續審查之進行。」各位黨團幹部請問對於剛才本席所宣讀的草擬協商結論有無寶貴意見?請會議詢問。當然可以。 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
10450.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
10470.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
可不可以請議事人員幫我們說明一下因為就是已經幾年沒有行使這個你們的第三點是說行使同意權案投票時這個票怎麼印您是說院長副院長及五月大法官並一張同意票那個會是怎麼規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
10471.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
10484.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
因為我有點在想,這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
10492.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
10511.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
我想問一下我印象好像是分開吧比如說院長、副院長都分開那為什麼這一次你要併在一起因為我們這一次的那個上一次的考委的案子的協商的時候針對併我一張我們就是考委跟考試委員的考試院院長併我一張所以這一次我們就尋 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
10512.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
10538.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
最近的這一次協商．看你們有沒有意見要討論一下那考委那一次對不起我沒有注意到因為考委的人數是一張但是過去我覺得回到過去的慣例我印象歷次都是分開印製就算考委的那個協商那個大家因為是方便投票嘛大家也是可以調整重點是第一個回到慣例第二個大家方便清楚在行使的過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
10540.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
10558.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
考位已經簽了就是併為一張那另外就是說我們實際上在進行這一個唱票的時候因為過去是不記名分開是還時間上還容許如果說這一次變記名的話又分開的話時間可能會比較拉長這個是背後的考慮那 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
10560.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
10582.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
就考試委員、考試院長是併為一張那看大法官大家的意見怎樣我們沒有特定的立場我們一定尊重各黨團幹部因為考試院院長、副院長、考試委員是併在一張我們大家都簽字同意了現在如果司法院是比照考試委員除非大家變成考試院跟司法院將來投名的票不一樣這個要大家請一併考量對、禁名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
10587.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
10596.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
好,所以就是確認一下,因為要明確認一下。好,謝謝施堯幹事長的問題,問得非常好。那個柯總裁有寶貴,請柯總裁,請。今天考試委員提名的時候,上次我們聽曹偉強那一張嘛,有關於這個書門問題的提問的問題齁,那就 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
10613.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
10633.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
到底要不要問到個人問題他要不要回答我們就尊重他因為到最後還是要執行的時候可以問所以這個不構成以後非難的理由好不好謝謝柯總召的叮嚀那現在各位黨團幹部我先簽字簽字完畢麻煩各黨團幹部簽字好嗎非常感謝我們一個案子一個案來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
10643.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
10647.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
接下來我們繼續進行民眾黨團國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會 接下來請黃國昌總召請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
10660.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
10672.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
有否尊重行政部門讓他們先講講話還是我們要繼續下去我想聽一下行政部門的意見是一個非常好的建議好我們現在聽一下麻煩一下國家發展委員會高副主委請發言好 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
10674.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
10695.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
院長還有這個各位委員我想大家都知道國發基金是因為產創的條例的成立的所以我們主要就在扶植一些新創的產業所以那些新創的產業這個創新的這些產業可能都需要創新轉型所以我們當初投資的時候呢我們在投資的過程都按照三個階段 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
10695.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
10713.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
也就是說要政策評估審議、投資評估審議還有委員會然後我們在所謂的這個基金管理裡面我們都依據公司法跟相關的法令來辦理所以不管是投資的過程或者是我們管理的過程裡面其實我們都按照既定的法令來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
10714.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
10738.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
那大家都知道因為我們是一個策略性的基金所以我們投資不一定都會一定會有某些基金某些公司是虧損的那當然我們總的獲利其實是還是蠻驚人的那我想今天這個成立的委員會他的名稱叫做不當投資跟管理失職調查委員會我的意思就是說虧損並不代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
10740.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
10766.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
他是不當的投資跟管理的失職所以我是覺得委員會的名稱上面的定義好像就未審先判因為就已經認定好像感覺上有某些虧損的公司基本上就是一些不當的投資跟管理的失職所以我想我這一點我覺得要先釐清那以上說明謝謝高副主委接下來我們黨團幹部哪一位要發言請吳思瑤幹事長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
10775.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
10789.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
好,謝謝主席。我想剛剛本黨的委員蔡易宇也好或是鍾嘉斌、張偉也好都針對這一次的憲判結束之後那對於整個調查權在院會層級可以行使院會層級的調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
10790.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
10812.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
委員會．那相關的依據憲判之後．事上立法院要做的當務之急．是應當去檢視有關於立法院職權行使法．第八章的調查權之行使．乃至於後續的聽證的部分．應當先就事法性來做一個全盤．是不是要修法的這個思維．因為未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
10813.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
10830.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
在成立調查的過程當中以現在大法官會告訴我們的是哪些條文違憲但大法官沒有告訴我們哪些條文怎麼修後續大法官宣告違憲之後要修法就是立法院的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
10831.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
10854.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
所以現在要啟動院會層級的調查委員會坦白講依現在的立法院職權行使法就變成是一部相對我這樣形容不曉得合不合理合宜但事實上我看來它就是一個拼裝車所以我們要用一個更負責任的方式針對立法院職權行使法第八章調查選制行使做一個全面的條文檢視讓它成為一個合宜的法制 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
10858.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
10872.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
然後來進行後續的調查委員會的行使。」這個是立法院現在要做的第一件事情那第二件事情呢回到民眾黨所提的這樣的一個議案那要成立院會層級的調查委員會你的主體性 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
10876.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
10901.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
就以這個案子寫的是國發基金的不當投資我想剛剛我們這個國發會的副主委也說明了那我要進一步再來確認一下就是說你行使調查權是為了輔助你不管是審預算或審法案它是一個輔助性的權利所以你要很聚焦你認為國發基金的不當投資是哪些案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
10902.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
10921.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
那我為了準備這樣的一個我試圖去了解民眾黨提案的內容所以我去看了國發基金我手上拿的是一百一十三年第二季的季報那第二季的季報就是最新的季報我們可以看到國發基金投資非常多 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
10923.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
10942.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
重要新興事業的投資有七十二件我手上厚厚一本七十二件的重要新興事業的投資第二大類是專案投資專案投資裡頭又分為加強投資中小企業實施方案就有兩百八十五案 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
10942.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
10958.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
用例如加強投資文創產業實施方案也是上百案我還沒有來得及把它統整出來數字第三類的專案投資是加強投資策略性服務業的實施方案也是上百案 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
10959.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
10976.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
以及第四大類的專案投資就是加強投資策略性製造業的實施方案所以國發基金投入專案投資就有中小企業、文化創意產業、策略性的服務業跟策略性的製造業這是第二大類加起來是上千案 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
10977.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
10998.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
第三類國發基金的投資就是創業投資事業方案這個大家比較熟悉創業投資的事業投資有六十三案第四大項目國發基金投資了創業天使投資方案這個我們在爭取新創我們都非常支持所以國發基金投入天使方案有兩百二十二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
10999.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
11017 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
最後一類是就是在疫情期間對於新創事業的影響國發基金也給予了國家的預算來協助他們整形所以我整個把現在國發基金的第二季的季報全部加起來就是上千案的投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
11018.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
11042.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
那我不曉得民眾黨的委員針對他們想要調閱的這個主題國發基金的不當投資的定義是什麼就如剛剛副主委說的如果把虧損就列為不當的投資那這樣是不正確的理解譬如說天使投資我們幫助新創這些start up他第一階段他不可能現在就 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
11043.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
11069.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
就盈餘嗎?我們是要在創業的第一階段給他們第一桶金所以到底他的定義的不當投資是什麼?或者是民眾黨的提案也可以針對我的提問上千案的投資那請問民眾黨建指的又是哪一案或是哪幾案?否則這麼大的一個範圍就很只是寫到國發基金的不當投資幾千案這個調閱委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
11073.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
11095.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
怎麼處理所以對一個主題性的明確要非常的需要被確立否則可能立法院的調查委員會在相對法律還沒有修得更周全的狀況之下就去啟動那會不會去影響了這數千案裡面光調閱就很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
11096.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
11116.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
所以我想要再更清楚的去釐清那如果是以我手上拿的就是這個討論事項當初院會交付下來的確實有寫到幾個案子的名稱難道就是聚焦這幾案嗎那這幾案當中還不乏是已經被檢調調查中的 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
11118.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
11140.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
也有包括被監察院調查中的那如果一、立法院職權行使法以及憲判還包括過去的五八五號七二九號都告訴我們對於偵查中的案件立法院的調查權是不能夠去介入的所以我做了花了一些時間做這些說明是我的提問跟我的不理解究竟民眾黨團對於國發基金的投資標的 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
11145.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
11168.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
到底哪些是他們想要行使調查權的範圍那這些範圍是扣合著作為調查權是立法委員的輔助權利您是要有利於對於您行使審查預算或是審查法案的必要性的輔助這些前提都沒有確立所以有必要請這個提案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
11170.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
11190.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
黨團再釐清否則這個調查委員會成立之後很難運作那我講回原來的根源現在立法院該做的事情是針對現判之後的配套修法立法院職權行使法調查權的專章要好好來修謝謝吳斯亞幹事長接下來請台灣民眾黨提案的黃國昌總召請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
11192.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
11217.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
其實我們當初在7月10號的時候我們提案成立這一個調查委員會我剛已經說明過了後來香港法庭做它的判決出來對它的結論我們覺得遺憾有很多東西我們未必那麼認同但是結果出來就是結果出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
11218.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
11230.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
我們在公開的場合可以批判有各式各樣不同的評論我們都尊重今天在這邊我也不是要在這邊重新的再去論述一次每個人有每個人的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
11231.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
11259.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
我們現在繼續往下走就調查委員會的組成以及連接聽證會的行事被現場法庭認為是違憲的部分比如說不可以邀一般的人愛來不來沒關係說謊也沒關係這個反正現場法庭我們同意不同意就是按照它的遊戲規則我們繼續把它往下走 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
11261.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
11283.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那第二個部分剛剛有委員淳勳淳勳說我們在今年七月十號的時候我們提這個案子到底是要什麼行使什麼樣輔助性的權利跟哪一個議案把它綁在一起那我就比較詳比較詳實的跟大家做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
11287.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
11301.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
過去這幾年國發基金現實上面的投資要創新產業轉型我們都同意沒有意見但問題是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
11302.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
11324.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
但問題是我們的國發基金甚至連執政黨的立委都在質疑它甚至成為紓困基金我為什麼說它甚至成為紓困基金譬如說我們為什麼在提案前面舉例子的時候會去舉到有關於像聯合再生的案子聯合再生剛開始投的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
11326.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
11344.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
民進黨的立委就質疑三家公司已經虧損到虧了一屁股一百多億在投錢下去是在紓困嗎?太陽能面板這個東西老實講某個程度上我這樣講或許有點不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
11345.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
11371.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
但是了解產業人都知道在台灣已經成為夕陽產業了根本沒有競爭力所以對於這個投資的決定本身對這個投資的決定本身事實上是有很多人提出質疑的我如果把時間的脈絡再拉長一點時間的脈絡再拉長一點甚至像目前我們現任總統府的秘書長潘孟安 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
11372.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
11381.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
他當初在處理有關於國發基金的議案的時候他是反對用什麼管理辦法去管國發基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
11383.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
11408.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
那個時候潘孟安秘書長是立委他針之著見痛罵國發基金成為紓困基金所以他說應該要用一個管理條例來處理有關於國發基金投資的事宜回到這裡來講當我們的國發基金成為有特殊關係的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
11409.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
11424.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
可以引進國發基金去投成為紓困基金所以他成為紓困基金當初民進黨立委所提出來的質疑真的是有先知著見因為那個時候在財政委員會那個時候我人也在財政委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
11426.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
11443.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
民進黨立委提出質疑的時候那個時候國發會的副主委是拍胸脯保證說沒有問題啊這個投下去相信很快就轉虧為盈了在立法院公報上面白紙黑字記載的都非常的清楚好 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
11444.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
11472.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
那等到我們現在2024年的今天再回顧這段歷史從我們國發基金投進去以後聯合再生現在虧了多少錢啊又虧了一百多億又虧了一百多億代表當初在質疑的人人家質疑的有沒有道理非常有道理那不僅僅是什麼是不是虧損這件事情啊質疑的有道理啊甚至是 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
11474.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
11501.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
我們當初投錢下去讓聯合再生成為所謂的綠能國家隊綠能國家隊我們綠能國家隊的表現是什麼表現到不是我說的喔是現任的國發會主委說的現任的國發會主委在我公開質詢的時候承認了對於這個聯合再生投了以後實際上面的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
11504.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
11527.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
連國發會的主委自己都搖頭在立法院公開說我們準備要退場了準備要退場了就這家公司不能再搞下去對這家公司公司的治理他自己都沒辦法認同甚至包括什麼甚至包括可惡到我們自己的綠能國家隊在我們的軍事要塞裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
11529.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
11552.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
裝中國製老共匪諜不是匪諜共匪他們做的有關於光電通訊的產品這個事情是誰幹的是我們國發基金是第一大股東的公司幹出來的事情甚至包括了什麼甚至包括在張彬工業區那邊違法的套利 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
11554.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
11566.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
連監察院都糾正監察院並不是在調查當中監察院已經調查完了他就做出了糾正胡搞瞎搞他不是在調查中他已經調查完了胡搞瞎搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
11567.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
11584.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
所以被糾正但我們的監察院面對這麼嚴重的案子他也是舉得很高然後輕輕拍一下說你這個不對喔你當初在整個投標招標的過程當中出現了很嚴重讓國家整個錢短掃轉賣拿去套利 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
11588.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
11612.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
那這一些這一些會直接的扣合到什麼會直接的扣合到剛剛也有民進黨的委員說好啊那你講了這麼多你講了這麼多那你扣合的是說我們現在就有關於調查權行使的部分調查權行使的部分要扣合什麼要扣合特定的議案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
11613.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
11622.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
所以剛剛有委員垂詢說那扣核的議案到底是什麼那我們先姑且不論先姑且不論現在在處理的預算案因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
11623.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
11652.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
我在提7月10號我在提要成立調查委員會之前之前我已經提了一個特定的議案那個特定的議案其實跟我要成立調查委員的目的是緊密的扣合在一起我為什麼說緊密的扣合在一起我跟大家報告一下我在後來的時候我們就成立了什麼不好意思我把那個紙拿出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
11656.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
11681.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
我在7月3號的時候成立這個調查委員會提案之前我已經提了產業創新條例第30條的法律案那產業創新條例第30條的這個法律的特定議案我在處理的是什麼議題我跟大家報告一下我在處理的事情是說國家發展基金的運用不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
11683.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
11693.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
用於下列的情況第一款的狀況不可以用於企業虧損的紓困那國發基金不可以拿來當作企業虧損的紓困 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
11695.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
11712.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
這個是早期民進黨在針對國發基金進行監督的時候我從早期裡面的立法院的公報意思錄很清楚的看到我們的前立法委員潘孟安大聲疾呼國發基金不可以成為紓困基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
11713.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
11737.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
他那時候強度是拉到說應該用法律來明定整個國發基金的管理而不是說讓行政部門透過辦法的方式就來管理這算是有先知佐見你不可以把它拿來當作你可以說產業要創新要發展這大家都OK但你不可以把它拿來紓困那第二個投資主要生產活動 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
11738.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
11752.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
位於中國大陸的企業為什麼我會反對國發基金投資主要生產活動用於中國大陸的企業我們國發基金應該是要扶植我們本土的產業能夠升級、能夠轉型 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
11755.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
11778.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
那國發基金怎麼會去投一個夕陽產業而且那個夕陽產業竟然主要的生產活動在中國大陸然後把台灣人的錢台灣納稅的錢台灣資本市場所拿到的錢全部丟到中國大陸那邊去讓不肖的商人在那邊胡搞瞎搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
11779.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
11801.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
那當我這樣提的時候有人可能會質疑啊那你就所何止我們國發基金什麼時候幹過這種事啊有啊我們的國發基金幹這種事情最有名的案子就是盧興啊盧興的那個案子啊那個時候決定要投資之前已經釀成了資本市場的大笑話表面上是我們國發基金進場去併購中國的酒地 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
11806.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
11832.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
但是所有資本市場都看得出來啊那個叫做逆併購啊表面上是我們去併購人家實際上是被人家吞了啊所以盧興的營運總部是設在台北啊但台北有幾個人?國發基金投的錢在資本市場因為國發基金進場一般的投資大眾進去的錢全部都跑去哪裡了?全部都跑去中國大陸 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
11833.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
11848.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
全部都跑去中國大陸胡搞瞎搞搞到現在如新的狀況是什麼如新的狀況是我們當初我們國發基金帶著大家進場搞到現在錢在那邊被胡搞瞎搞完吶 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
11849.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
11873.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
我不好意思說股票成為幣值啊受害的恐怕不是只有我們的國發基金啊受害的是有很多投資人啊欲哭無淚啊當初是投著國發基金進場所以剛剛有委員在問說我們綁的特定的議案是什麼當我們說產創條例應該要做這樣子做修正的時候我綁的是這個法律案嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
11873.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
11902.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
至於說在這個法律案裡面是不是有具體的情況符合這個法律案應該考慮的排除的消極要件排除的消極要件那這個調查委員會成立了以後我們的調查委員會可以按照這個議案的目的的範圍必要性的部分來進行調閱嘛那我想到這邊啊不好意思占用了比較長的時間但是因為有委員問那我還是要簡單的說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
11903.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
11927.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
好,謝謝台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召的發言各位委員請從我嘗試性的來宣讀一下因為剛剛各黨團都已經表達過意見了我知道各黨團幹部表達過意見了那總教練委員你也講過啦我知道那邊都有啦徐議政委員來了沈博洋委員都到了越來越多那我現在想想看三個黨團都已經發言過因為後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
11928.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
11955.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
包括內政部長、劉部長都已經等了一天半了還在隔壁所以我們先把這個議案我先嘗試性的念念看大家有沒有意見那我也歡迎我們沈柏洋委員還有洪森翰委員是吧洪森翰委員還有徐宇貞委員現在都來都要發言我想稍微等一下好不好我嘗試性那我們本月是否成立國發基金調查委員會已經超過了冷凍期這一點是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
11957.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
11983.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
現在各黨團聽大家發言的內容似乎無法達成共識。這是第二個。我們是不是就保留院會來處理?沒關係,你們等一下可以修正沒人。第三,我這邊會有一個協商的草案,我來念一遍,大家來指導一下,聽聽看。如果大家都認同,我們就簽字。如果大家不認同的話,我們就等下一次了,好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
11985.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
12014.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
立法院黨團協商結論113年11月14日星期日下午2點我們協商的主題嚴商台灣民眾黨黨團建請院會作成決議．成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會．就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料．於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會．請公決案。相關事宜。 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
12015.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
12041.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
我們協商結論只有兩點一、本案就保留送院會處理二、院會處理進行的時候由各黨團推派一位一、台灣民眾黨黨團、民進黨黨團、國民黨黨團順序輪流發言每人發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢之後即一提出先後進行各黨團版本的處理各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
12042.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
12046.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
黨團幹部跟各位委員,如果針對我這個協商節目有意見,請大家發言。沒有問題,吳淳淳他們在,沒有問題。好,謝謝,不要急。你們現在因為發言完,徐議政委你要不要發言?因為這是輪流的,沒有齁? |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
12068.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
12071.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
我盡量縮短我的發言雖然剛剛有很多其實我覺得不太合理的地方但是因為我覺得重點是我們有沒有一個協商的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
12085.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
12102.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
所以我回到剛剛司法幹事長講的地方就是說因為立法院職權行使法有被宣告違憲有很多條文被宣告違憲但因為大法官他沒有處理條文之間的矛盾我舉幾個小例子就好譬如說利益迴避的問題五三之五那邊有定後面就沒定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
12103.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
12131.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
那其實調查委員會一定有利益迴避的問題再來還有其中報告有一些條文有其中報告有一些條文沒有這也很矛盾最矛盾的地方是因為大法官只處理違憲他沒有處理告知義務那因為我們在成立調查委員會叫人來問話的時候一定要告訴他講說你什麼時候可以拒絕證言你這個東西你可以不要講等等之類的那一個告知的程序當時漏定他沒有定在上面那沒有定在上面的話就會變成說我們這個調查委員會在執行的時候會有太多缺漏 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
12132.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
12149.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
但是我們有一位認為說因為其實各黨他要去做什麼調查但是他們要發起我覺得自由啦但是是不是可以講說我們趕快先把立法院職權行使法這一些漏洞因為我剛剛講這幾個漏洞趕快先修修補了之後再來好好的成立這個相關的調查嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
12150.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
12170.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
我覺得這個聽起來應該會比較合理才對所以這是針對這一件事情的建議那回到那我就快速回到剛剛國昌委員提到的這幾個問題就是說因為畢竟調查是需要範圍的那因為按照他本來這樣寫那個範圍有點大那他剛剛有說他因為按照大法官這次的解釋他是說相關議案而且跟立法院委員的職權有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
12171.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
12196.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
那相關議案他已經提出了．他說是用法律案．他不是說用預算案但是如果是用法律案的話．會有幾個疑點．他剛剛那個叫產業創新什麼條例．對不對對就是什麼相關的條例產創條例如果說．我是為了產創條例的範圍．要怎麼執行．然後我要來做調查的話．這個不需要做調查．這行政機關做就好了．這跟我們立法委員是要把抽象的法例出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
12196.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
12216.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
至於那個範圍那個只要是有抽象的法規範就好這其實不需要用調查委員會來決定所以我覺得這個理由好像有點不太充分第二個就是他說這一個用這個要調查說什麼有這個到底是不是紓困然後紓困跟這一個虧損到底差別在哪裡其實我剛剛這樣聽下來我覺得黃國昌委員已經調查完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
12219.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
12239.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
就是剛剛講的比如說逆變器其實我覺得那個逆變器的調查很好就是說你有發現有中國製的這個逆變器在那邊這個是他連質詢都沒有質詢他就調查完了那他為什麼有如此神通廣大的能力是我不知道但總之他有這個能力嘛所以呢如果我今天逆變器他已經調查完了他也質詢了然後他說誰誰誰關係深厚他那個連連看已經畫完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
12242.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
12261.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
那他關係事後他也講完了然後針對這個潘孟安這個秘書長之前講的要用條例不用辦法這個也不是調查的範圍啊那如果按照他剛剛講完之後他其實不是有定見而已他調查結束了那調查結束了那突然要成立一個調查委員會那個理由就不夠充分嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
12261.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
12290.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
但是我覺得這是各黨的自由啦只是說回應他剛剛講的這一個地方其實我覺得這個調查委員會沒有必要成立但如果真的要成立的話趕快把立法院職權行使法因為大法官都剛剛出爐嘛其實也沒有說很久以前的事趕快把相關的那些矛盾的規定先全部把它梳理完之後那按照剛剛國常委員的講法他有提到說他其實只是按照五十九條之一的這幾款就可以直接做了其實沒有就像我剛剛提的那幾個程序的規定那個幾個矛盾都還沒有被解決所以以上簡單的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
12292.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
12320.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
謝謝沈某洋委員發言黃鴻威首席副長請發言吳思耀幹事長請準備好謝謝那個院長院長我想齁前面我還是講一下我們的這個會議的程序喔那我們剛剛講就是說這個是黨團協商齁應該是由幹部來發言那當然我們有些法案的部分或有些程序的部分譬如說剛才中招兵對中嘉賓委員來發言因為他是司法法制委員會的召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
12321.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
12348.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
根據這個有關於我們立法院職權行使法尤其在釋憲之後有沒有沒有不夠完備的地方我覺得就是說所以我尊重他的發言但是老實說我覺得今天如果民進黨在三長之外或者是相關的委員會或者提案委員或召委之外派出一大堆人都可以做發言的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
12349.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
12352.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
院長你主持這個協商真的是會越來越苦啦所以我想因為院長人很好也非常尊重各委員到這個協商裡面來就是也尊重大家的發言但是我覺得我們的這些相關的會議的程序遊戲規則還是最好要遵守啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
12370.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
12374.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
因為如果是這樣的話我們到時候各黨派大家都用人海戰術的話那我們這邊的這個協商會沒完沒了我們其實你看前面都已經花費很多時間好那回到就是有關於這個我們要不要成立調查委員會我想第一個就這個我們的因為完成釋憲之後我們在院會本來就可以成立調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
12399.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
12403.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
也就是說雖然在這次釋憲裡面我們雖然不滿意但是我們也願意接受那這樣的已經限縮了國會相關的調查權力我們現在連委員會都不能成立調查小組所以很多人都在質疑其實我們都還不如地方議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
12422.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
12424.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
例如講包含民進黨他們津津樂道的所謂的金華城相關的案子這也是台北市議會的他們在委員會裡面成立的調查小組所以我們現在委員會已經不能成立調查小組而經過釋憲之後我們在院會可以成立調查委員會如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
12444.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
12468.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
今天我們都還不能成立的話那今天請問一下我們立法院到底要自我綁手綁腳到什麼樣的程度這是其一好第二就是有關於國發基金他的投資相關的有沒有涉及到不當投資或者甚至涉及到相關的有沒有弊端的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
12470.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
12493.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
該不該做調查委員會更詳細的了解跟知道讓民眾有知的權利我們只要走出立法院你們到業界去走一圈我們國發基金這幾年的不當投資剛才我也聽到你剛才應該是是副主委是不是說不能說虧損就是有什麼不當 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
12498.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
12505.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
可是如果今天我們相關的新興的事業投資60幾家有半數都在虧損有半數都在虧損請問這叫不叫做不當在我的定義裡面半數都在虧損那當然是不當啊所以這是其一另外也就是說我們現在在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
12526.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
12554.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
國發基金這幾年採雷採的確實非常非常多比如剛才黃國昌總召所提到的我不再贅述可是確實在我們的投資的過程裏面投資的公司不但發生虧損我們現在也準備撤資之前的聯合再生或者如新我們現在還有面臨一個GogoroGogoro馬上就要在美國下市了 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
12555.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
12573.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
所以今天外界一直在質疑的是為什麼國發基金採雷採的那麼多如果我們覺得我們都可以不用調查不用給所有納稅人一個解釋或者讓立法委員能夠了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
12574.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
12580.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我不懂欸就是如果這樣子我們都還覺得國家基金OK啊沒有什麼問題啊沒有什麼不當啊我覺得有人有臉講我是沒有臉出去這樣講啊所以我覺得今天成立這個調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
12595.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
12613.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
也就是說如果國發基金自己自願自己沒有不當投資投資都很棒有虧損都是別人的問題不是自己的問題你怕什麼調查呢越調查越清楚不是嗎所以在這個部分要特別要跟大家來報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
12614.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
12636.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
還有另外可能也有委員會說國家發展基金沒有問題啊他每年都有很多的獲利啊沒有錯喔他每年獲利都在兩百億元以上喔他的獲利非常多唷但是我告訴大家國家發展基金到現在都吃老本因為大家都知道國家發展基金過去在最好的投資就是台積電了 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
12637.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
12649.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
但是因為還好我們當時國發基金沒有出脫台積電的持股跟大家報告每一年國發基金來自於台積電的股力的貢獻超過兩百六十億 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
12654.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
12661.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
超過兩百六十億所以如果你今天看到說他非常好啊有什麼問題呢賺那麼多錢你們還有什麼問題呢那我要告訴大家幾乎都來自於台積電鼓勵的貢獻所以基於以上尤其這幾年有關於國發基金踩雷外界有很多很多的質疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
12679.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
12699.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
所以我覺得在已經經過釋憲之後然後我們立法院很負責任的在我們也尊重大法官最後釋憲的結果嘛我們不滿意我們也願意接受啊如果這樣還不能成立我覺得這樣子我們真的對不起納稅人這麼多的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
12704.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
12708.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
還有,我覺得也會讓外界有更多的質疑。以上,謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
12726.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
12749.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
好謝謝院長我想針對這個協商結論我們當然覺得沒有辦法同意為什麼呢因為這樣一個包山包海的提案然後主體範圍不明確而且是架構在一個釋憲之後立法院職權行使法需要好好來研修的這些前提之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
12750.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
12770.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
此時此刻來成立的調查委員會我覺得這是大有問題我們同意立法委員擁有調查權這也大法官也都沒有否認啊從誓字五八五號七二九號到現在這一次的一一三年限判九都肯認立法委員的調查權利只是立法委員的調查權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
12772.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
12784.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
他是一個輔助性﹐是一個手段性的權利﹐他不是一個目的性的權利也就是我們在憲法法庭上﹐這個大法官問得非常清楚查弊案是立法委員的核心權利嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
12786.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
12815.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
黃兆元大法官也問了黃國昌委員立法院查閉你是否定五八五號這是蔡中正大法官說的是否定四字五八五號嗎所以說我也不知道黃總召我們在討論他的案子好像黃總召離開了有點可惜所以說這樣一個協商結論當然沒有辦法處理而我認為現在的對話都很有意義因為我們主張要把法律修好 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
12816.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
12830.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
把立法院職權行使法前後有矛盾的地方把它做一個完備的研議之後再來行使調查權會讓我們的調查更有利會讓立法院的調查更有依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
12831.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
12851.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
而不會去招致前後條文不一自我矛盾至愛難行的限制。」所以要把法修好依據到法官的視線結果來修這是一個重要的事第二個呢我也回應一下剛剛這個宏威委員離開一下想正因為這是全院委員會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
12853.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
12880.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
調查委員會．所以全院委員會．院會．對不起．院會層級的調查委員會．會試射我們一百一十三位立委．所以我認為沈博洋委員來這裡發言．何錯之有．因為這是院會層級的調查委員會．我希望不要限制委員來參與這個珍貴的調查委員會．如果要成立的話的討論．第三大部分．到底國發基金的投資有沒有踩雷． |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
12882.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
12890.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
有沒有踩雷?數字會說話!以蔡英文總統上任到現在民進黨執政的105年到112年國發基金的總體獲益是1660億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
12898.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
12915.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
如果要比較的話．比起馬英九執政的八年．獲益只有四百七十一億．民進黨執政下的國發基金．大幅增加獲益是一千一百八十九億．成長了比馬英九執政時期成長了三點五倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
12916.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
12936.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
這樣子的一個投資績效怎麼立法院就把它扣上踩雷是不當投資只要投資了幾間是虧損的公司我們剛剛已經說了虧損沒有投資一定贏啦全世界沒那個投資一定贏啦國家的責任就是要扶植我們必要扶植的產業嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
12937.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
12959.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
所以我也希望能夠導正這個國發基金就是踩雷所以我們要查要查我覺得可以查但是那個範圍要明確定義要清晰最後呢剛剛黃國昌總召說他的行使這個調查委員會調查權的行使他是輔助他要去修正產業創新條例三十條 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
12962.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
12989.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
他是要去修法所以需要成立調查委員會來協助他修法那我們就來看看他修的這個法他提出來的產創條例三十條的修法是要增加最後一項第二項就是黃國昌民眾黨的修法條文就是有關國家發展基金之運用不得用於下列情形一、企業虧損之紓困 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
12991.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
13007.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
二、投資主要生產活動位於中國大陸之企業三、投資過去三年內違反環保、勞工或食安衛生相關法律且情節重大之企業如果是為了這一個條文的修法我們在經濟委員會好好來討論立法委員很快可以達到共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
13012.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
13036.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
為了這樣一個修法單一條文的單一相次是不應當無限擴大到要成立一個立法院層級的調查委員會來去查他認為他現在還講不清楚要查哪幾間虧損的企業所以這是一個不對等權利的使用也是一個過當的權利的使用所以就法律 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
13037.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
13065.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
論法律．這個調查委員會．對於他修產算條例三十條．來成立這個調查委員會．合理嗎．他不合理．第二個．把立法院職權行使法修好．讓立法院未來．可以啟動的調查委員會．更強而有力．更有法律的support．更有清楚的遊戲規則．這是民進黨的主張．有任何該調查的事情．絕對不迴避．但是立法院現在要用一套． |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
13067.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
13088.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
真的是拼裝車的資權行使法裡面的調查權的專章行使我都認為那只會自我限縮我們的權利所以這樣子的我真的要奉勸一下院長您的這樣的協商結論講白話翻白翻譯一下就是你要讓這個案子去院會表決嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
13090.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
13116.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
那你剛剛的結論恐怕就是這樣嘛所以說我花了這麼久在跟院長跟大家做意見的交流院長也點頭如搗蒜啊所以針對一個產創條例三十條的單一項字的修法要去成立全院調查委員會範圍這麼大到現在還講不清楚要調查的是哪一間不當投資的公司 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
13120.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
13146.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
加回憲也加沒合理所以我一定要嚴重表達我們的立場。」好,謝謝吳世耀幹事長表達非常清楚我們能達成共識就有達成共識如果不能達成共識就不能達成共識了在黨我們會有我們的處理方式接下來吳春城幹事長請發言結束之後我要做幾個討論,請我升官了升官了吳春城副總召有主觀佳績 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
13149.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
13178.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
沒有佳績我還是代表民眾黨發言國發基金作用巨資管理鬆散、績效不彰外界傳言很多追求利益人士所寄諭的方便之門這外界的傳言很多我覺得國人很想了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
13179.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
13204.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
立法院是一個民意機關那個民進黨的委員也是民意代表應該讓大家不要大家很希望掀開這個蓋子這個神秘的蓋子讓國人有自的權利所以不要一直去擋一直去蓋包括我們也沒有說定罪所有的東西都是無罪推定但是透過這個國會調查委員會的運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
13209.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
13237.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
聽證的程序讓他更加的明白讓我們的國人能夠了解國家的產業發展的策略還有這些投資評估的情況來保障納稅人的權益跟國家的資源所以我覺得這個是一件應該要做的事情所以非常贊成院長所提出的這個協商的結論 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
13239.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
13265.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
謝謝吳春成副總召不過現在有兩個副總召一個是副坤祺總召一個你是副總召所以我們要分得很清楚好不好那各位幹部我知道大家意見都很多那麼後面還有其他的法律案我建議稍微等一下我們既然現在達不成共識我們就繼續溝通那協商草稿請大家就參考了我們後續也只能夠依照議事規則我們來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
13268.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
13276.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
那我現在宣布休息三分鐘之後休息五分鐘之後我們進行下一項選罷法的協商好不好好我們現在休息五分鐘謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
13297.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
13299.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
謝謝國發會高副主委謝謝經濟部列席的官員謝謝請回謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
13806.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
13815.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
講得很好。非常好。好。謝謝大家。謝謝我各位黨團幹部請坐。請坐。我們現在討論這個公職人員選舉罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
13828.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
13845.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
院長我是請求因為過去我們參加草野協商不管誰大誰小大家都會有退讓那也可以就我們爭議的標的不要說就沒有共識就沒有達成協商很可惜那我剛剛試著提出說因為目前呢民眾黨有一個產創條例第30條已經交付經濟委員會審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
13848.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
13877.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
依靠過去的立職法我們只能召開公聽會但是經過立職法的修改之後．可以有五十九條之一．可以開聽證會那聽證會是根據新的立職法那麼成立調查委員會也是根據新的立職法但是從剛剛的發言可以發現如果說我們現在就根據一個大法官宣告部分違憲還沒有經過完全修法的一個立職法來辦理成立調查委員會它的風險跟幅度是比較大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
13878.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
13899.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
但是如果根據五十九條之一委員會本來就可以辦理公聽會所以我們是不是可以用經濟委員會因為行使院會交付審查的慘狀條例第三十條我們除了辦理公聽會邀請社會人士來貢獻意見之外也可以針對民眾黨所提議的這些特定的案例我們來辦理聽證會 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
13900.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
13901.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
正草案與 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
13921.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
13940.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
此案兩案經第一會及第二十二次會議決定近乎二讀並按交付黨團協商本案已於十月二十月二十三日由國民黨團林思明委員主持我們已先行召集一次協商會議當日協商會議各黨團無法達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
13941.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
13968.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
因此向院長請求要求進行黨團協商我們現在開始協商針對法案的內容我們今天先介紹一下我們列席的各位所有的首長首先柯總召身體有點不舒服我們掌聲歡送他柯總召你多保重身體 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
13970.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
13977.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
第二位歡迎中選會李竺偉第三位歡迎司法院的周廷長第四位歡迎法務部的廖參事接下來我們先請提案的國民黨團請說明。 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
13997.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
14014.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
我想供這個選罷法的修正當然不管是我們執政黨或者是中選會在整個立法過程中都有很多意見但是我還是要特別跟這個我們全國民眾說明包含我們各位黨團幹部 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
14015.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
14038.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
我們現行的公職人選舉罷免法要操作罷免是非常的容易因為在連署的程序過程中它存在非常多的弊病因此我們將公職人員的選罷法將連署罷免的時候的門檻我們認為必須加嚴也就是說必須要提供身份證的引本 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
14041.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
14064.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
我們就是要讓罷免的程序流入讓有心人士可以將收集到他人的身份證或者是假冒的資料提出去當作連署的人數而導致說我們罷免連署的數據資料不公正而且造假 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
14065.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
14083.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
我們在過去就很多次發生過這樣的一個實際的例子不同聯署人的資料且簽據聯署資料時的筆跡這個可以說是完全不一樣的甚至有死亡的人的資料都出現在聯署的人數中 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
14085.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
14104.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
而且我們再做一個法律的比較我們看到總統還有副總統選舉罷免法他就明確的規定候選人的選舉連署就是要檢附國民身份證的影印本所以說如果沒有辦法明確辨認連署人的身份 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
14105.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
14130.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
是不是那個聯署人不能記錄必須刪除所以我們認為說那個既然總統副總統的選舉罷免法有這樣的規定那為了其他公職人員的選舉罷免就不用為什麼總統就想這樣子一個特別的一個權利在這個聯署的時候他們要檢舉法規規定要檢舉我們的身份證的影印本 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
14130.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
14152.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
其他公職人員在受罷免的時候就不用這是一個法律漏洞所以我們必須把它加以調整所以我想我們這次立法的修法我們真的是可以避免因為惡意罷免而浪費我們許多的社會資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
14153.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
14174.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
我們也可以讓更多優秀的我們這些公職人員全心來投入他的一個為國家為社會為我們的人民做全心全力的這個服務的一個工作而避免遭受這些惡意的一個罷免我想這也是我們民眾的一個損失所以我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
14175.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
14199.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
我們所有的公職人員在選舉罷免的過程的制度設計都要相同的一個制度設計而不要有不一樣的一個情況好以上謝謝謝謝林思明書記長的發言我們跟黨團幹部報告一下我們第一輪各黨團幹部發言完畢之後我們要請列席的行政首長來說明之後我們再進入第二輪這樣的話會比較順暢好不好第一輪先請各位黨團幹部接著請蔡宇宇書記長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
14204.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
14221.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
好,謝謝院長那我們在討論罷免法這一次的一個修法那主要國民黨的版本大家都是針對要附上這一個聯署人的國民身份證正反面的影本 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
14221.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
14247.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
那如果要附上正反面的影本基本上它就是增加了一個難度就是說你去連署的他必須同時身上帶有身分證正反面影本我想我們如果來自政科你就知道事實上很多老人家他是不會把身分證帶在身上的辛苦課金沒有帶東西所以他去連署的時候他沒有身分證的話表示他單純 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
14249.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
14278.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
簽名單純把它填進他的資料還不夠他必須要再返回去拿身分證所以我們會從這樣會說基本上你這樣的一個門檻就是增加了所謂連署的難度而且這個難度就會直接影響到了未來罷免案的成立那以目前我們雖然有多次的一個罷免的一個經驗事實上也是有成立的也有不成立的 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
14279.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
14301.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
所以看起來以這個目前這個門檻就是非常的橫貧也不是每一案都會成立那既然這樣的話我們就保留以現在的制度讓人民罷免的權利可以繼續存在那我想經過基隆這一次的罷免的狀況後我們的民進黨黨主席右昌主席他也說現在民進黨沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
14302.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
14310.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
我們秘書長我們秘書長他也曾經是黨主席曾經是代理黨主席曾經曾經曾經 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
14313.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
14332.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
請尊重發言的黨團代表,謝謝。﹖民主黨也說過現在民進黨也沒有要推動所謂的大罷免所以在這樣的一個前提之下我認為說我們何必在這個時候大家正在討論總預算而且我們在討論一些人事權的時候何必把這個罷免權把人民的這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
14333.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
14363.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
最基礎的權利要在現在處理呢?真的是不急我當然再舉一個說過去我們民進黨當然在公投連署的時候我們曾經有提案說要附身分證的影本那當時國民黨當時的主席是江啟臣他也是很清楚的去講說你這樣的話第一個侵害隱私第二個提高連署的一個難度所以我會覺得說尤其是現在我們知道整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
14364.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
14375.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
這類詐騙的總控你把身份證正反面的一個影本提出來那個對於人民的心理壓力是很大的因為現在詐騙集團最主要都是叫你 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
14376.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
14404.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
要交出存摺交出你的身份證所以這個壓力是很大的所以人民不想把身份證交給其他人這個我們要必須合理我們必須要要去合理性的去思考這件事嘛大家記得不愛那我們又要叫他交出這個身份證正反面的一個影本等於是他就不要去罷免了他乾脆就不要了所以我也覺得這樣的一個修法事實上是比罷免所謂的一個門檻要提高 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
14407.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
14430.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
還要嚴苛因為他連最基本的成案都會產生困難所以基於這樣的原因我們還是具體建議請國民黨或是民眾黨我們在於這樣的一個選罷法的修法不要在現在處理先把這個權益繼續保留給人民謝謝蔡宇書記長的發言接下來請台灣民眾黨發言請內政部劉部長準備好台灣民眾黨請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
14436.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
14458.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
好 這個選舉跟罷免這是公民行使他的公民權那這當然都是很重要的但是呢我們選舉很困難但是這個罷免太容易然後呢選舉需要身分證 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
14460.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
14479.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
為什麼罷免就不需要身分證其實這個又不合理那事實上已經事實上這個現在的罷免也的確事實上在實務上面已經成為政黨仇恨鬥爭的工具了真正的不是人民在行使行使他的公民權 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
14480.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
14501.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
所以我覺得這個本黨這個同意而且支持要提高這個聯署的程序那個嚴格的程序這個不是嚴格這只是恢復到正常而已以上好謝謝台灣民眾黨吳春成副總召的發言好現在我們請劉部長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
14503.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
14520.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
謝謝院長各位黨團幹部大家好那我先來講有關於剛剛這個國民黨的林思明委員所提到的連署的部分他有講到三個法案第一個呢總統的這個選罷法裡面的所謂的公民連署呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
14520.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
14547.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
他的規範是要涉及總統副總統候選人資格的取得跟罷免沒有直接相關然後再來公投法的話是針對事情針對公共政策的事項的成立那在公職選罷法裡面當然就是針對具有公職身份人的去留是有沒有被罷免都要提出來所以三個其實是不同的立法的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
14548.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
14576.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
在公投法跟公職選罷法裡面目前為止他沒有減負的必要同時我們如果回到公職選罷法的規範其實從八十年開始修正到去年一百一十二年的六月九號我們已經修正了七十六條修正中選會電子系統僅供罷免領銜人徵求連署之用這個可以回應在傅坤祺委員裡面的提案內容之一的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
14577.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
14590.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
至於兩位委員所領銜提案的部分．我們的回憶是這樣子第一個在增列罷免提案．跟聯署人應該附身份證影本的必要性的影響第一個剛剛有委員有提到現在因為詐騙橫行．或者是現在因為國民身份證在已經有牽涉到說在各執法的十五條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
14599.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
14615.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
你必須要符合第一個執行法定職務的必要範圍第二個是經過當事人同意第三個對當事人權益沒有侵害的各個情形使得為之所以要把身份證正面同時反面的也必須要影印的話恐怕會影響到要參與這個罷免連署人的意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
14625.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
14637.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
國民身份證正面有姓名出生年月日同一編號背面還有父母配偶住址這些都是屬於各自保護法在第二條第一款規定的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
14638.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
14662.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
所以如果要把這個提案罷免聯署要付身份證影本的話真的是會影響到這個提案跟聯署的意願那這是第一個那第二項的部分就是說如果增列填寫國民身份證的發證日期恐怕在選務機關上面也會造成困擾第一個因為發證日期國民身份證除了發證以外他同時可以補證 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
14663.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
14687.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
也可以再修正。日期不同,在連署選務上的確認會產生變動,會增加在查核也就是連署當中查核的一些困擾當然第三點就是我剛有提到一百一十二年六月九號的時候我們已經修正了公職選罷法第七十六條明定中選會的電子系統僅供罷免領銜人徵求連署之用 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
14692.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
14719.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
而不是回復在電子系統的提議階段。」以上我們會認為說是不是各個委員說的說法我們都可以認同但是在目前這樣的時刻裡面就在提到修法的部分真的是會增加未來在選務機關上面或者是增加公民投票權還有罷免權為人民基本權利裡面的保障會反而降低這是我們簡單的報告謝謝各位 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
14722.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
14747.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
謝謝內政部劉部長的發言接下來請中選會李主委發言請司法院準備謝謝主席、各黨團的幹部各位先進大家晚安中選會基本上就這個案子我們跟法律的主管機關內政部的意見是一致的那我特別要再做一個補充就是說罷免跟選舉創制復決一樣都是憲法所保障的公民權 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
14748.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
14766.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
他既然是受到憲法的最高的一個保障那所以有關於任何公民權的這個法制的建立或者是檢討應該都站在保護的這個出發點來做衡量這是第一點跟各位做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
14767.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
14795.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
第二點就是在委員的提案裡面首先第一個就是說在聯署甚至於包括是提議的階段都要附上這個身份證那考慮的兩個面向一個就聯署人來講他很可能會因為害怕他的個資被洩漏了因為現在這個詐騙集團他的詐騙手段裡面很重要的一個環節就是先取得個資了 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
14797.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
14810.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
所以他會擔心說他的個資被竊取被洩漏了因此會影響到他的連署的意願那這對於罷免權的行使來講當然是增加一點困難這是第一點 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
14813.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
14840.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
就另外一點來講就這個社會上很多人也許這些詐騙集團無孔不入的而且任何方式他都不會去放棄的所以他也很可能藉由所謂的罷免的提議也好聯署也好來騙取民眾的個資那這樣會不會助長了這個詐騙的盛行那這一點也是我們必須要考量的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
14841.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
14847.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
二、填據身份證發證日期．簽署聯署後．如果身份證遺失或毀損．有發生換發或補發的情況．日期不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
14864.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
14892.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
那如果因為這種情形日期不一樣而被刪除的話那這個對於連署人來講也是不公平的所以這點我們也希望大家能夠予以斟酌那至於七十六條的部分在去年六月選罷法修正的時候已經刪除了電子系統在提議階段的適用已經刪除了 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
14893.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
14914.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
所以現在適不適合再把它放回去那如果放回去的話是不是會助長這個罷免案的這個犯案的提出這點也請各位黨團幹部能夠予以斟酌那總而言之我們的立場跟這個法律的主管機關內政部的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
14914.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
14932.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
是一致的我們認為這個修正必須要是非常的審慎尤其是要著重在保障憲法所保護的公民權以上報告謝謝謝謝中選會李主委的說明接下來請司法院州廳長發言法務部請準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
14943.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
14965.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
謝謝院長各位委員司法院的報告第一點關於這兩部修正草案都是關於罷免程序事項的徵定因為涉及選舉政策的決定因此本院尊重組織機關還有大院職權的行使那至於細節的部分我們的意見如同 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
14966.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
14973.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
今年十月二十三日朝野黨團協商所提出的書面報告。以上。 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
14983.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
14999.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
院長、各位委員關於這次草案我們就98條增訂98條之二的部分分兩點提出意見供各位參佐那第一個部分就是說98條之二規範的行為就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
15003.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
15030.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
利用他人個人資料未經同意偽造假冒提議聯署者。」這一類的行為在目前現行的法制上有可以適用這個刑法兩百一十條的偽造私文書罪以及各執法四十一條非法處理利用個人資料罪來處斷那這兩個罪的法定刑度 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
15032.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
15046.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
比我們草案規定的都來得重。」那這個部分請委員可以斟酌一下就是說本條是不是有必要制定至於在 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
15047.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
15068.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
管理實務上是不是需要再增訂這樣的一個特別刑責條款那這個部分我們就尊重主管機關的意見那另外一個部分就是說草案規範的這一個行為形態也有一部分的意見提供給各位參考就是說我們的條文規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
15070.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
15091.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
未經同意偽造。」偽造的概念本質上它就包含了未經同意的這個概念在裡面那另外呢因為罷免的提議跟連署都是屬於夭視行為都必須要親自的簽名蓋章所以如果有 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
15092.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
15117.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
條文所稱的未經同意假冒提議跟連署那他也附隨的會有偽造的這個問題所以這個過程要見的行為形態也請各位委員如果說這一條也要增訂的話那能夠一併予以釐清以上報告好謝謝法務部廖參事的報告接下來吳思瑤幹事長請發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
15120.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
15134.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
謝謝主席今天終於進入這個深水區其實很多公民朋友最關切的就是朝野協商當中的選罷法因為這事實就如同剛剛中選會的這個李靜雯主委說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
15139.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
15159.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
憲法保障珍貴的人民公民權所以不管是立法者或是policy maker行政部門的政策制定者都要站在保護人民珍貴的憲法父權的角度來切入而不是用阻卻剝奪或沒收的角度 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
15160.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
15182.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
所以剛剛從中選會也好內政部主管機關也好都站在非常反對的立場來面對現在在野黨提出來的修法主管部會行政部門的意見非常的明確那民進黨團的意見也同樣非常的明確如果今天的修法過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
15183.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
15193.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
或者是今天協商結束．很快的就用院會．會不會明天就處理了．我們希望不要。．那這樣子修過的法． |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
15194.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
15217.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
增加了罷免的門檻要檢附身份證正反影本plus發證日期誰最開心就是詐騙集團最開心誰最開心那些表現不適任的地方首長或是民代可能也會開心因為他設下了罷免的層層難關有委員會提到總統副總統的選舉罷免法 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
15224.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
15242.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
當初也是要求要有身份證但是大家想想總統副總統選舉罷免法當初是一九九五年訂定的一九九五年的時空背景那個時候連個資保護法都沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
15243.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
15267.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
那個時候對於個人資訊的保護的概念甚至是詐騙集團的猖獗完全不可同日而喻所以如果要拿總統副總統選罷法來做一個類比合理化今天沒收閹割了人民珍貴的罷免權限的行使我想這樣的比喻是不倫不類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
15269.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
15296.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
那今天民眾黨的總召離開了這個黃總召不在但我想2013年的黃國昌說的那一段話有必要在今天的朝野寫商大家來檢視過去黃國昌就說有一群立委未來會做很可怕的事他在立法院會做提案進一步讓罷免的程序變得複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
15298.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
15302.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
要求每個提議人跟聯署人把身份證正反影本交出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
15305.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
15332.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
這是什麼就是這些立委要繼續讓你行使直接民權的路變得很困難這是2013的黃國昌總召但他今天好像我們上次在協商黨團協商林思敏委員交集的選罷法的協商黃總召也不在今天韓國瑜院長的協商他也不在我想黃國昌總召是不是自己也心知肚明 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
15333.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
15351.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
募收人民的民權他不想讓自己成為那個可怕的立委那如果這樣的話我們就好好來審思這樣子的提案修正真的不宜那最終呢我也要誠懇的跟主席做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
15353.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
15377.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
這幾年來選罷法的重大的修正生意有三次第一次是我從最遠的講過來2015年1月22號修選罷法那時候修的重點是政黨補助門檻從5%下降到3.5%這非常重要這對於政黨的利益權益所以那一次的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
15377.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
15393.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
召集委員．在內政委員會．陳其邁召委．審了三次．後來沒有結論．提交到院會層級．也就是現在韓院長主持的．這個level的協商．也進行了兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
15395.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
15416.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
2016年11月29號選罷法的修正那個時候就是黃國昌時代力量的黃國昌他提議還權於民罷免的門檻不需要門檻那一次的討論是民進黨最後解救了黃國昌那一次的因為涉及罷免門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
15418.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
15434.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
非常審慎因為是珍貴的憲法民權陳其邁同樣是擔任內政委員會的召集委員他審查了在內政委員會五次後來沒有共識提交院長層級的朝野協商兩次 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
15438.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
15462.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
最近一次的選罷法修正是2023年5月26去年對於候選人的排黑條款這對於每個從事公職的非常重要排黑條款訂定那一次的修正更審慎內政委員會的召集委員是陳玉珍陳玉珍委員那個時候為了選罷法修正他召集內政委員會的開會是七次 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
15463.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
15482.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
跟現在他處理財劃法三分鐘．儼然是完全不同的陳玉珍為了修選罷法．去年的陳玉珍在內政委員會審了七次提交到院長的協商兩次我用這樣的一個意識在處理就過去到現在的立法院面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
15483.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
15505.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
要憲法賦予人民的珍貴的罷免權利都要非常的審慎我們要站在保護人民的權利的角度而不是沒收人民的角度所以我也請求這麼重要的跟人民權利直接相關的議案我們內政委員會已經快轉沒有討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
15506.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
15531.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
我也希望剛剛花了一點時間跟在座的各位以及韓院長說明是不是讓選罷法能夠大家多討論多思考真的不要很急切的大家都在看立法院保護人民的權利還是強害人民的權利好嗎我期待真的我不希望今天協商完沒有共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
15531.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
15535.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
就循議事程序就去表決。」我再次呼籲萬萬不可。謝謝。 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
15543.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
15567.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
謝謝主席我想這個選罷法的討論其實已經非常多了那麼事實上在我們在委員會裡面也做過這個選罷法的這個協商那其實我們都會去提到過去譬如說剛才提到過去在公圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
15569.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
15583.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
公投法裏面要提到身份證復銀本的時候當時國民黨有一些反對的意見我想時空環境其實它有一些變化尤其在這一次謝國良市長的罷免案之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
15588.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
15591.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
其實很多人確實在省思我們是不是花了非常多的社會的成本在裡面會不會勞民傷財剛才也提到其實過去歷次很多的罷免那有的成功有的失敗那但是大家會回頭去省思到底就是我們一個平凡的罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
15609.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
15620.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
對於社會或者是對於民主政治他的意義是什麼所以像最近就是我們羅志強委員他所主持的這個智庫新智庫他也做了一個民調最新的民調那麼事實上就是都有將近六成的這個民眾事實上並不支持現行的這個選罷法裡面相關於罷免的一些他的設計或者他的 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
15639.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
15661.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
制度。」好那所以我們是不是可以考慮在做這個選罷法的一些修正那我當然知道這段時間呢民進黨團當然是極力反對那你可以看到包含我們今天在座的不管是中選會、內政部、法務部、司法院就如同剛才吳思瑤幹事長講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
15664.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
15666.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
通通反對當然反對啦其實現在以執政黨來說反對選罷法的修正已經非常非常的明確了但是我想請問一下在整個的過程裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
15684.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
15707.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
你說今天如果說副身份證影本就是主卻和剝奪大家罷免的權利公民行使他的公民的權利當然我們也都速度的提到我們現在在總統跟副總統聯署的部分也是有身份證影本 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
15708.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
15733.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
那剛才吳思瑤幹事長提到說啊這個是1995年啊多年之前但是他也行之多年所以我不曉得今天民進黨是不是要告訴我們他們準備修那個總統跟副總統的選罷法了呢說把他全部都拿掉了呢我不知道你們是不是有這樣的一個暗示啊或者是有這樣的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
15735.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
15738.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
那至於在講到所謂的詐騙沒錯我們現在的詐騙確實確實非常非常的猖獗那我想請問一下我們現在被詐騙這麼多人被詐騙這麼多錢請問他們通通都是去聯署了總統跟副總統的選舉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
15759.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
15785.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
很有限吧所以怎麼會把詐騙的問題去牽扯到說如果在這個不管是總統和副總統這個聯署裡面就是你去提供身份證影本造成現在的詐騙呢你自己出去外面說說看大家能不能相信啊這個執政政府怎麼可以甩鍋到這種地步啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
15786.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
15814.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
請問一下能夠連署到底有多少人而現在被詐騙的人數又是多少案件又是多少所以你這樣子扯真的一般的民眾真的聽不下去所以我們講到修法的部分我們還是會希望能夠在整個的選罷法的相關的規定裡面去彌補或者杜絕過去的一些的流弊 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
15814.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
15837.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
那確實過去確實有出現死人連署然後我們也很清楚的知道很多的罷免案其實是很多的樁腳或者是一些工會他可能一些工會的名單他就有身份證的這些相關的字號所以就直接抄嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
15838.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
15865.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
就直接抄而其結果也增加這個選務工作後面的查核的相關的成本所以在我們這次選罷法的提出其實是我覺得是很合理的就是我們橫諸過去在整個的罷免案所產生的流弊以及現在民眾也普遍感受到平凡的罷免 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
15867.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
15885.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
他是不是符合民眾的一個需要民眾會不會覺得這是一個勞民傷財的事情那麼我們現在也但是我們仍然保留公民選擇的權利嘛大家都知道其實要罷免他基本上你如果有絕對你認為這樣的公職人員是應該被罷免掉的 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
15890.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
15913.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
那麼他也會願意拿出身份證影本就如同選在總統跟副總統的聯署裡面他認為這個人他也認為他應該去參與總統跟副總統的選舉的時候他也可以接受這個就是提供身份證影本我一直在講這個行之多年過去都沒有問題為什麼在罷免就出現了這麼大的問題呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
15918.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
15940.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
更不要說我們在這一次裏面包括是身份證影本還有他的發證日期那我剛才不是講嗎其實有些時空環境的改變那可能改變最快的是包含吳秉瑞委員還有我們在座的我們蔡易瑜書記長他們有共提今年四月共提的版本他們是發證的日期 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
15942.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
15963.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那他們把他撤案了我們也尊重包含吳秉瑞委員最近也撤案一個公投也是發證日期我們也尊重讓他撤案就是他可能覺得他時空環境變了他可能幾個月前他覺得應該要這樣子然後聯署的民進黨委員也很多可是也許過了幾個月半年不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
15964.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
15981.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
他就覺得這樣子的方式不好當然我們大家都知道啦就是因為配合我們執政黨的一個政策嘛但是無論如何就必須要講的我們朝野協商是尊重大家政黨發表意見然後做一些相關的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
15983.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
15998.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
但是我覺得不管是剛才之前的我們的調查委員會的成立也好或者選罷法的成立也好我們今天選罷法的修正也好不要變成說一定要聽從某一個政黨的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
16006.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
16024.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
我們到院會去做處理他也是一個完全合法合乎程序的一個議事的處理不要把它變成講到說只要做議事處理他好像就是沒有討論完全不是這麼回事以上謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
16032.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
16058.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
謝謝主席剛才聽了因為我們是內政委員所以我也經歷了就是選辦法的法案的過程所以我是有講幾個就是我個人看到我覺得是要跟大家講一下剛才我們都說憲法保護人民的權利對不對所以人民權利除了選舉的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
16063.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
16082.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
選罷選罷法選罷法是不是也是人民的權利所以我們要用人民的權利就是用身份證來去選出來每一個人每一票都是人民的信任的票對不對但是我們要去罷免的時候呢也是要同樣這樣子才對選舉的人是公平啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
16083.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
16083.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
對民眾黨黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
16101.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
16102.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
二、研商有關公職權行使法部分條文修 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
16127.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
16129.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
講都是說不要講別人的過去啦過去我們現在啦但是呢又拿我們的黃總召拿來當模範如果大家當模範現在他講他想要做的大家為什麼不聽他的呢對不對不是這樣子的不要再一直在現在就是要講我們怎麼樣去討論達成共識不要一直要拿來別人的好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
16152.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
16170.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
自己留來用．如果覺得好用．就自己留來用．不要說別人的不好．還是自己的比較好．還有第三．大法官是人民選出來的嗎．但是我們所有的立法院的立法．交到大法官那邊． |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
16171.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
16176.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
所以大法官說這個法就是釋憲這個法是怎麼樣就是否決了所以我們是我覺得是我們真的我們立法院是人民選出來的大家要尊重我們要不管是要選 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
16190.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
16192.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
選出來的也要有身分證來才能去選舉沒有身分證也沒辦法去選所以我們要罷免的時候也是人民的權利我們也是要有身分證來去罷免我覺得就是這樣子的才是公平不要讓我們覺得什麼都是說詐騙集團現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
16214.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
16230.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
詐騙集團都是不是我們要去選舉的是因為很多一直在設立一個詐騙中心但是越打越炸所以也是很多人民被騙剛剛我才去質詢而已比特幣所以我們台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
16237.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
16253.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
百分之八十被騙拿不回來所以這個都是我們要不同的層面還有去把關所以希望我們要這個就是嚴謹嚴謹連署謝謝謝謝麥義正委員的發言報告各位黨團幹部現在顯然我們沒辦法達到共識我現在說兩點 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
16260.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
16279.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
重要的來宣告一下請大家請聽一下第一本來選罷法既然沒有共識我們大家就繼續溝通二、現在接近六點我們跟大家報告一下下禮拜我們要擇期協商研會的事宜那麼還有附屬單位預算的密集協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
16280.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
16294.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
是不是我們今天就先到此為止那下週我們再來發文繼續來進行相關的協商請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎好沒有意見那我們現在非常感謝各位行政首長的列席非常感謝大家我們現在散會 |