| video_url |
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| 會議時間 |
2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分。（僅詢答）） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
8386 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:14 - 10:50:00 |
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1855.456 |
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1863.292 |
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報告委員會出席委員9人已足法定人數好我們現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上一次會議議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1865.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1888.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議意思錄時間中華民國113年11月13日星期三上午9時1分至12時23分地點紅樓山寧毅會議室出席委員黃仁等9人、念席委員賴士寶等15人請教委員寧毅君、寧楚音、念席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1889.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1907.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
行政院主席總處專門委員丘碧珠主席王昭吉委員定語報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二討論事項一審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國防部主管收支公開及機密部分不含國家安全局部分僅詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1909.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1924.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
2.審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於國防部主管非營業基金僅詢答．作業基金國軍生產及服務作業基金2.國軍老舊眷村改建基金3.國防醫學院軍事教育基金 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1925.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1945.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
2、資本計劃基金、國軍營舍及設施改建基金、國防部部長顧立雄、主計局局長謝啟賢、政治作戰局局長陳玉玲、軍醫局醫務管理處處長許玉瑞及軍備局局長林文祥報告、委員盧敏林等15人質詢,均由國防部部長顧立雄、全民防衛動員署署長白潔龍、 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1946.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1961.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
政治作戰局局長陳玉琳,護勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔,海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮及國家中山科學研究院院長李世強等即席答覆。決議一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及巡打結束。二 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1962.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1983.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊,請國防部與二周內書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會。委員另指定期限者從其所定。三委員林業軍、黃仁及陳培宇等三人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。是以上案案另則其繼續審查。修正通過臨時提案議案。宣讀完畢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1986.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
2005.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
請問在場委員對於上一次會議意思錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正的地方沒有的話我們意思錄確定請議事人員宣讀討論事項討論事項審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分。（僅詢答宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2008.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
2032.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好我們先介紹在場委員陳永康委員請坐請坐請坐羅美玲委員我剛有看到沈伯陽委員那我們今天列席的官員由國家安全局局長蔡明彥行政院主計總處專門委員邱碧珠那其他業務主管根據勤工法我們就不予揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
2036.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
2045.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
本日會議議程審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分。（僅作詢答報告區分為公開及機密兩部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2052.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2070.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
採取先公開後秘密的方式那報告後接續詢答詢答採取先秘密後公開時間並記那我們待會清場的時候也跟昨天一樣朱惠井有準備明天待會清場我們也請朱惠井協助做這個空間的這個掃描 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
2072.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
2095.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那以往我特別謝謝國安局因為我們這個空間的保防安全是有委請國安局協助那我認為基於國會自主這樣我們駐衛警有這樣的裝備在必要時在尋求你們的協助但畢竟我們是監督你們的單位所以這個保防的部分由我們國會駐衛警自己來進行那另外呢今天因為有公開跟秘密的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2096.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2118.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
只詢答是合併計算時間本會委員的時間6加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘我們10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右我會視詢答的狀況來處理臨時提案那我們首先請國安局蔡局長上台報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2130.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2147.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
好,謝謝主席。主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生,大家好。那成本大要安排審議本局114年度預算案。那以下檢究本局114年度公開預算的部分,檢要報告如次。第一部分是有關於113年度已過期間預算執行的情形。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2148.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2165.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
在113年度公開預算總計有十億五千四百六十萬六千元（截至10月31日為止執行率有達到94.52%（各項的施政工作都有按照計劃的進度持續的在執行當中第二部分是有關於114年度的施政重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2165.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2185.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
一、前瞻科技發展的趨勢,健全資訊管理的工作,有鑒於中共的網軍跟國際的駭客組織攻擊的手法日新月異,本局會持續的來精進我們網安防禦的機制,也全面的來強化、集合還有管控,增加我們的防禦重生以便來維護整體勤船設施的安全。 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2186.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2206.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
運用科技創新的思維提升秘書作業的效率這部分有包括四項主要的重點第一是加強本局的公文檔案的作業第二是精進外文編譯的工作第三是來積極的落實施政計畫的管考第四是持續的來推動公關的工作特別是聚焦在落實政府資訊的公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2208.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2225.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
3.精進總務後勤的事務支援情報工作的推展主要的工作重點也是包括有四項第一部分是完善我們的財產管理的作為第二部分是提升採購作業的效率第三是改善單位辦公的環境第四是來持續的強化本局營區安全的防護 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2225.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2247.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
是完善人事管理的作業提升人力數值的能量本居會持續的來開拓情報人員招募的管道徵補所需的專業人才以提升我們特勤情報科技等等的情報工作的量能另外我們也會來積極的培養網安的人才提升國安團隊網安空間的技術以及我們情報專業分析的能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2249.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2276.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
5提升主計業務的效能妥善整體支援的配置那這方面的工作重點主要聚焦在兩個部分第一部分我們會來精實預算編制的作業強化編制的重點內容說明第二我們也會嚴密的預算來執行相關的管控的機制特別是每個月我們都會召開預算檢討的會議來掌握預算執行跟購案的節點以便來釐清落後的原因提升我們預算執行的效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2277.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2297.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
6.我們會貫徹聯人政策的工作,確為本局內部的安全。這部分我們也包括有兩項的工作重點。第一,我們會持續的來加強我們政風法令的一個宣導,定期來宣導聯政跟紀保安危相關的規定以及為時的案例,培養同仁正確的法紀觀念,避免抵觸法規。 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2298.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2326.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那另外我們也會來堅守採購兼辦的一個職責那依法來執行相關的採購兼辦來增進我們採購的效益同時來杜絕採購的弊端7我們會加強我們特勤委安的訓練提升人員本職的學能那在這部分我們會持續的來辦理各項特勤專業的訓練工作並且來實施年度體技能的建設還有各項專精的技能競賽以便來提升我們特勤同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2328.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2347.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
應變還有防處的能力提升特勤的專業數值第三大部分是有關於114年度公開預算編列的情形在稅入的部分本局編列993萬3千元在稅措部分本局編列了有10億8304萬8千元那這部分主要包括的有幾項的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2350.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2359.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
在行政管理費用的編列部分我們編列了有9億5256萬元在情報教育訓練的部分本局編列有4280萬8千元在情報建築跟設備費用的部分本局編列有8768萬元 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2367.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2394.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
第4部分節語本局114年度公開預算主要是前瞻當前的國際情勢跟橫著未來的情報特勤工作退展的一個實際的需要並且遵照到行政院核列的數額何時來編列在這邊特別期盼各位委員先進可以給予本局持續的支持還有相關的指導以確保國家安全情報工作可以順利的推行以上報告謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝蔡局長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2395.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2399.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
公開報告結束接下來我們要進行秘密會議來進行機密報告請議事人員清場 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
3238.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
3244.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們現在登記公開詢答的委員開始進行詢答首先請 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
3277.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
3291.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我們在開放會場的當下本席做一個重要宣告那我們由於這一次的國防外交委員會絕大多數的成員都第一次參加所以我們昨天在國防部也是如此我們希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
3292.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
3317.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
延長各部會跟委員做預算說明報告以及委員要垂詢的時間所以我們會把這個溝通的時間拉長給他兩週的時間方便各位委員就預算提出詢問所以有關114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
3318.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
3335.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那我們預算提案預算提案於11月21日下午5點前截止收件請各委員及各委員辦公室的同仁注意這個時間預算的提案截止時間是11月21日 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
3339.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
3359.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
下午5點截止收件令審查時間暫定於12月4號12月4號進行主案的審查本席在這邊做宣告接下來我們公開質詢的委員請羅美玲委員上台質詢本委員會6加2非本委員會4分鐘請 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
3366.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
3368.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
國安局作為我國的情報統合機關負責我們國家安全情報工作以及測情工作的這個策劃跟執行那業務其實是具有非常高度的機敏性 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
3393.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
3407.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那近年來我們可以看到中共的網軍還有國際的駭客呢而持續的這個侵擾讓這個國安局面臨的這個治安威脅的這個事件是逐年地在攀升所以本席也看到說在這個114年度我們有 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
3411.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
3439.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
對針對資安維管工作編列了將近9800萬的預算作為資安相關設備維護跟採購的經費那對這部分有助於提升國家情報工作的資安防護能量本身是予以肯定跟支持可是又如何確保資安維護工作能夠真正的落實並有效的執行我想這部分我接下來我是想要 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
3439.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
3440.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
．審查委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
3447.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
3471.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
國安局呢,因為國安局的業務是涉及這國家安全跟相關這個機密的事項的程度是非常的深所以是屬於資通安全而任等級A級的這個機關那自屬受這個敵方勢力跟國際駭客進行的網路攻擊也好或是侵擾事件是影響最大的這個單位之一所以我們可以看到就是說我們在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
3472.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
3485.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
國安局資安人員的這部分我們有一些評比有一些考核的一些指標可是我從今年的預算書所列的這個年度關鍵績效指標來看維持資安人員專業證照比率的這個設定我們看起來是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
3492.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
3492.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
3520.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
3523.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
不具挑戰性請問局長你怎麼看這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
3550.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
3550.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
委員會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
3565.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
3594.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
因為他是一個有點激動浮動的一個狀況那委員也知道本局因為有軍職人員跟文職人員特別是軍職的人員他們只要一借領之後就必須要離退那尤其有一些在資安背景的同仁他在民間市場上他也非常具有競爭力也可以找到更好的工作所以我們必須在律定這個所謂的目標值要考慮到人員流動所產生在那個證照比也會被拉下來的一個問題所以這大概是我們當時在編列這個目標值 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
3595.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
3621.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主要考慮的一個重點所以你說在一年當中可能它都是會有一些的浮動所以你們就會定的比較保守一點的意思吧對 跟委員說明一下大概歷年的經驗來講那個流動率大概都有一成左右一年當中都會有一成的這個流動率所以變成是說你的目標值也不敢拉得太高因為人員的流動新進人員進來他要去完成這些證照的考試他會需要有一個過渡的期間 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
3622.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
3648.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
OK了解那再來還有一點就是在我們資通安全責任等級分級辦法裡面有明確要求A級的這個機關資安專職人員必須取得4張以上的這個證照而非專職人員也必須要定期接受這個資安訓練那國安局作為這個A級機關那我們在這個部分呢有沒有說去做要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3648.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3648.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
．審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3668.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3672.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們不只是要求要去積極的來考取相關的證照要是能夠考取證照的話我們也會有一些工作的津貼跟獎勵來鼓勵同仁積極來考取相關的證照所以我們是完全按照這個資通安全責任等級這個分級的應辦的事項來做辦的就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3686.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3707.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對,而且也跟委員補充說明一下這邊委員在螢幕上有顯示對於非專職的資訊人員要定期來進行相關的治安教育我們甚至不是只有針對國安局的治安人員來進行治安的教育我們針對我們整個國安團隊包括國安局11個單位我們也安排相關的課程來協訓各個國安單位的治安人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3707.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3708.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
資安集合的作業跟網路工房演練也是我們資安 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3727.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3728.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這部分這是不公開呢還是說我們根本在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3755.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3784.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
有有有跟委員說明一下我們在那個剛也跟委員提到我們在網路的專職的教育還有資安的攻防演練都有定期的在舉行而且特別要強調的是不是只有局內的同仁來參加相關的演練工作我們會邀集我們國安團隊其他的資安團隊進來做相關的演練而且還有涉及到跟外國相關的團隊的一個交流的經驗所以這部分在執行規劃上 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3785.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3788.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
國安局是屬於比較特殊的單位所以很多相關的資訊我們是看不到的那比如像這個我們前面前面前一頁有提 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3802.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3806.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
關鍵技巧指標提到強化資安委管工作,每年必須36篇完成搜研分析及發布資安通告篇數,內參 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3822.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3843.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
各位委員說明一下就針對一些相關重大的資安攻擊事件的話那我們跟整個中央民國政府有一個通報的機制那假如涉及到民間單位我們也會請政府的業管部會去通知民間單位要注意到可能有資安攻擊的警訊這大概是第一個部分那第二部分我們除了內參還有內部政府的跨部會聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3844.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3866.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
通報以外,我們大概每個月也會針對一些國際或國內的治安情勢,每個月都會有一個比較簡單的一個報告公開上網在本局的網頁我現在看到的就是簡單的報告,所以我們有個資通安全訊息我們看到的就是一些簡單的報告,那這36篇的內容我們是不是不適合公開嗎?因為我們是看不到這些資訊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3867.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3869.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
最後一分鐘因為我看到國安局的網站歷年被駭客成功入侵的次數都是零的所以表示說我們國安局對這個網安的威脅事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3895.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3922.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
我們有非常厚實的能量所以我在想說是不是可以跨部會來給大家做一些參考可能給他們做一些分析我們怎麼做到的我想這部分的話可以讓其他的部會來做一個借鏡因為這部分謝委員提醒我們會跟其他部會來分享我們的經驗也跟委員很老實的報告只要是真的是有經驗有能力的外國駭客一接觸到我們網站大概就知道我們建立的能量是非常強大他們不太願意花時間來攻打這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3924.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3924.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
有請局長謝謝主席來局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3951.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3971.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
好謝謝主席黃委員長好局長好我們來探討一下這個珠海的一個這個航展今年大陸今年在珠海航展已在11月12號到17號的舉辦那對於珠海航展的是否有關局長有沒有關注 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3972.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3989.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
那在今年的航展展現了部分先進武器的一個科技比如我們的千三五A進行飛行展示然後千十五T艦艦載戰鬥機千十五D艦載電子戰的飛機還有直20J艦載直升機等共經現役的新型的主戰的一個裝備 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
4003.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
4026.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
經爲首次公開的亮相那還有其他九天無人機的航母普京號大型無人艦等所以這個等等他們在這個航展的部分對應展現新型的武器這針對這個部分你認為大陸在這一次的珠海展這個曝光這麼多的新式的武器的目的是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
4027.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
4050.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
謝謝委員提到這個問題我們的判斷大概在珠海航展的過程當中那中國要達到的目的有兩個一個部分是委員已經在檔案當中有特別指出來的就是希望達到一個對外宣傳展示武力的一個宣傳的目的那這部分可以展示中共在軍備的投資那已經有相當的建制的能量那這大概是第一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
4050.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
4070.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
第二部分當然也是希望透過珠海的航展可以尋找更多的潛在的國外客戶來採購中共所自己產製的武器那政府委員所提到的這一屆珠海航展有幾個特色一個部分是在建載機的部分包括殲35還有殲15T那這個都可能運用到中共第三艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
4071.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
4099.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
福建號航空母艦的一個運用所以他是在展示他的一個艦載機的肌肉那另外像今年的轟6K也特別去搭載了他鷹擊21也是一個新型的飛彈不過他展示只有模型的部分那已經有在特別展示他由空對地打擊的能力那另外紅旗19的防空防擋系統那也是一個他們宣傳的重點外銷的部分大概今年放在殲10CE這一款的新型飛機 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
4100.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
4115.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
另外本席有一個注意到的這一次的珠海航展的特色除了秀肌肉找買家可能有幾個特殊的意義需要國安局注意的第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
4117.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
4146.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
宣傳的意義對內對內強化大陸民眾的觀榮感對臺灣民眾透露了解放軍的軍力的強大以形成心理壓力甚至嚮往第二個是體系這個體系式的展示這個本屆航展覆蓋陸海空天電網全領域目標在向美日等大國顯示 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
4147.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
4172.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
競爭成果甚至進一步警告美日等國家要介入台海戰爭不要介入台海戰爭第三暗示軍事科技發展進程此次的珠海航展大陸對於新式武器尤其是1300A有別於過去共軍對於新式武器的 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
4175.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
4195.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
這個引海作風（大方開放民眾拍攝攝影若依照大陸在製造一代籌備一代規劃一代的科技發展進程暗示大陸可能已經展開了下一代武器的製造甚至下架帶武器的研發規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
4196.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
4216.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
所以請國安局對於上述的三種情況要有所準備尤其是第一項如何安定台灣的民心和第三項如何取得研發的情資都應該多加以這個使力好不好好謝謝委員提醒我們要繼續的關注也做比較系統化的分析 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
4217.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
4236.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
有關於我們辦公廳舍的問題這也是過去很多委員一直在提到每一次你們的廳舍裡面就有關於主要防水、避矮處理及地板的汰換以辦公室空間整建或防水工程等為例 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
4237.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
4241.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
第一個110年經費780萬110年約920萬112年約2700萬113年約4200萬114年約1400萬5年都快編列1億了所以有沒有可能我們像我們的外交部的外管 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
4262.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
4279.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
過去裡面也是一直在陳珠最後直接買有沒有跟國產署來商討就是因為你們常常會有什麼漏水嚴重啦非常潮濕啦因為你們在陽明三角嘛所以這樣的一個每一次都這樣子來修繕來做一個修補 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
4282.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
4296.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
不是一個長久之計而且五年來都已經耗盡了一億有沒有可能再找一個辦公廳社跟國參署來商討一下這樣的話來一次解決來解決這個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
4298.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
4298.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
你們的執行率是60% |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
4327.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
4330.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
因為去年有一個防色整建計畫在招標的6次之後還流標因為物價的波動 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
4348.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
4364.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
以致我們國安局在委外都會特別要求營建商不能使用外勞或其他國家的勞工所以造成的成本非常的高那我們後來那個案子因為取消延緩來辦理才會造成執行率不到7成所以你們下一年度又要再一次的編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
4366.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
4393.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
這個也不是一個解決辦法所以我們認為第一個我們的公堂我們要有所保留就是不要浪費那我想我的本席建議就是說如果每一年就是這樣的來修繕因為那個地方是屬於潮濕的地帶因為你們是陽明三角會潮濕所以有沒有可能跟比照外交部的外館一樣剛開始他們用陳珠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
4393.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
4418.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
最後他們一次解決埋下來那有沒有可能跟國產署來商討就是找一個更恰當的地方能夠讓我們的國家安全局不再有再有修繕的一個問題然後一次解決然後找到一個好的地方讓大家都能夠不要再為了這個修繕再修繕浪費了很多的公帑 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
4419.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
4420.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
接下來進行詢答委員是馬文君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
4452.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
4453.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長來,局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
4460.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
4463.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
市長早我們在今天大概就我們114年度施政計畫跟預算的這個報告那就我們看到114年稅出預算在公開的部分國安局在設備跟投資向下有一個雜項設備的經費裡面特勤中心要構置槍擊偵測系統夜間套件兩套 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
4490.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
4494.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
那這個案子要購買的這個兩個套件總共編了1473萬元執行年度是113跟114那其中113年就今年我們大概是74萬是5%的訂金嘛那明年要編1399萬對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
4513.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
4525.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
那可是局長你知道嗎就是說這個槍擊偵測系統的這個夜間套件其實我們在最早使用的情況是要用在第16任總統副總統的選舉那時候為什麼沒有買 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
4531.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
4549.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
我跟各位說明一下就我們現有的那個槍響偵測器本身也可以進行夜間的一個槍響偵測的一個作用本身是可以的因為在我們的安危八號總統大選期間一般的造勢晚會他都還是會有一些微亮的燈光所以在那種燈光之下要來偵測槍響的來源沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
4551.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
4552.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
局長為什麼會有這種響電 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
4580.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
4606.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
因為主要就在全國大停電之類的全部都案的情況之類這是什麼樣的狀況會變成這樣對因為也有可能啦這個各種對還是國家有重大風險沒有就各種情況我們都必須要做像剛剛在做我們的預算報告也提到了我們會針對各種不同的想定來提升我們安委的能力那針對大型的停電的話假如真的是全案的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
4606.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
4622.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
不過局長您提到的這個想定是出乎我們意料之外就是說總統在什麼樣的情況之下會突然面臨到說你突然大庭店完全都是暗的情況之下然後你必須要去判斷那個槍響的來源因為那時候可能你有這樣的裝備都已經不太能夠保持這樣的安全所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
4631.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
4639.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
我還是有點 有點 不過也跟委員說明一下即使是在一般的狀況總統出席的場合要是那個區域有什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
4641.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
4641.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
所以剛剛局長提到的並不是全貌 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
4664.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
4665.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
就我們在112年度在編列這個預算的時候他編了2979萬元將近3000萬那要購置的聲響槍擊偵測系統這兩套裡面其實包含了四個 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
4682.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4684.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
設備4個裝備4個主要裝備第一個就是偵測模組然後這個是1400多萬然後攝影模組包含日間跟夜間就兩種都要買日間大概700多萬夜間的也700萬然後還有備用套件要兩套 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4704.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4725.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
可是到最後我們112年在決標的資訊裡面由華新工程顧問公司他以少5萬元的金額得標就將近3000萬他用2975萬只少了5萬元他得標可是這其中卻拿掉了夜間夜間攝影設備的這個部分你知道局長你聽出問題在哪裡了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4735.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4735.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
總共變了2979萬可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4744.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4748.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
到最後他只少了五萬可是那七百萬的夜間的這個設備沒了那你現在又編了錢要買先說明一下為什麼那時候把那個取消掉因為夜間其實總統候選人在選舉的時候其實他們碰到的狀況或者包括停電那時候停電才多就是如果用這樣的想定的時候那時候照理說應該要買的 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4770.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4775.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
特勤中心副指揮官李慶然跟委員報告當時的我們有尋商之後他的報價大概是在兩三千萬左右您剛提的數字沒錯那後來因為這個物價的波動那我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4792.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4792.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
最後尋商之外﹖ |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4818.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4838.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
等於能力其實算是差的喔你讓他主要的一個這樣的裝備其實沒有辦法獲取然後你的金額才只少掉五萬塊他第二個可能就是那個廠商是不是用詐騙的手段他剛開始跟你報價的時候那個距離多久那如果他報價差那麼多你主要的裝備還沒有辦法獲得你還可以跟他買嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4842.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4855.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
所以他第一個是你的尋商有問題第二個就是廠商用詐騙的方式讓你買了這些主要裝備以後後來在我看你明年已經今年跟明年又編了而且你是編雙倍你之前已經多給了700萬可是你現在編了又變成1400多萬要再買同樣的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4866.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4871.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
1400萬是兩套的你之前也是兩套啊你之前也是編兩套我現在就是說他有一個可能就是他報價給你的時候他突然把你提高那個報價那你尋商只有一家嗎你還可以問其他家啊那為什麼會發生這樣的狀況這是我們覺得你在預算上面應該要去查清楚的後續還是希望這個部分因為你剛剛說物價波動那是那不可以接受因為你其他東西都沒有波動嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4895.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4905.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
謝委員提醒我們我會後會來完整的了解這個部分查清楚那如果是同一家廠商你就更不應該跟他買因為他原來給你的報價他報700萬結果沒有辦法他突然又要升高那個價格所以你把它取消掉那你現在又編了兩倍的價格要買同樣的東西你等於用三倍欸所以如果是這樣這個廠商有問題我們希望可以查查清楚那利用一點點時間因為最近 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4921.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4927.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
大家可能全球都一樣大家都在關注川普上台以後局勢會怎麼樣變化當然大家可能都有不同的見解跟看法我們比較關注的當然還是我們台灣本身那就局長來看在經濟的波動上面因為我們對美國一直是粗糙的可是在選舉的過程當中川普總統其實一直以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4946.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4963.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
對我們都是非常不友善他甚至認為我們搶了他晶片的生意這個是天大的笑話因為晶片是大家台灣很多很多人才努力的成果那還有的就是說他希望我們提高軍費就這些還有我們一直對他是粗糙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4964.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4967.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
所以中央銀行總裁其實他針對現在的評估報告以後他也做出了一些結論那就經濟面向局長你有什麼樣的建議跟看法可以給我們的高層做一個參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4979.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
5004.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
跟委員說明一下因為在選舉過程當中美國總統候選人一些談話我們都有在注意那後續會不會落實為政策作為這我們會繼續來關注那另一部分跟委員說明一下在川普政府任內的第1任期的4年之內事實上臺美之間的溝通合作不只是委員提到的經貿在安全上合作都非常緊密因為那4年我擔任的是國安會的副秘書長所以我們在溝通聯繫上都有非常良好的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
5005.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
5011.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
不過要提醒啦因為過了4年那川普在這4年當中的變化或者未來整個世界局勢的變化因為那時候沒有戰爭那現在這兩場戰爭還有台海跟周邊很多區域的緊張的關係其實都會牽動後續的影響那這個部分我們希望是沒有比較具體的可以讓高層參考以外也可以讓我們委員會或者我們全民都可以比較清楚的一些資訊好不好好謝謝謝謝委員各位請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
5035.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
5056.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
接下來進行詢答的委員是沈博洋委員謝謝主席邀請局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
5064.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
5093.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
謝謝主席 沈委員早這個我就直接從預算開始因為今天最早是預算的詢答時間應該沒那麼多啦那這個剛好是前幾天的這個新聞所以把它放在這一邊是這個第三季的數據它包含這些資安供給是全球的這個平均招供給的次數那裡面包含包含台灣那剛剛羅委員其實也有提到相關的這個預算所以這個部分我就不多說但目前的政府與軍事機構以台灣來講的話平均每週是五千多次 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
5096.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
5110.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
我現在目前看到的就是在這一個我們的預算書的第三頁的這一邊說強化資安的這一個委管工作那我這邊呢因為我自己跟資安是比較有關係但我想先問一下目前這個資安委管工作的進度為何 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
5111.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
5133.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
事實上對於治安的委管是本局長期以來非常重視的一項工作的業務也感謝大院的支持我們大概在過去這幾年在治安投注上的經費是有逐漸的在增加主要的目的就是在提升我們治安防護的能力剛剛羅委員也注意到了本局在這方面的防護能力讓駭客的攻擊所達到的紀錄是零 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
5135.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
5157.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
主要原因是我們所架設的一個網路環境就駭客比較有專業背景的經驗來看的話他們會知道要攻擊本局的一個相關的網站網頁難度會比較高那就剛剛委員所呈現的數據來講大概在過去這陣子的過程當中很多駭客侵害的對象已經慢慢地從政府機關轉移到民間或研究機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
5158.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
5173.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
而且過程當中除了我們高度關注的apt的高階駭客攻擊以外dDoS的攻擊似乎變成是這一陣子主要的一個趨勢那也才會委員在數字呈現上發現那個次數似乎有不斷增加的趨勢大概背景是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
5174.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
5196.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
對,然後因為我發現在預算書這一面,就是除了這一頁以外,就是這上面,就它說維持資安人員專業的這個證照比率,那當然它是有這個有某種程度的達成,我覺得這沒有問題。但是我這邊要提醒一下就是說,我們傳統的資安在講這些紅隊的演練啊什麼等等之類的,它確實我覺得目前不管是國安局還是國防部在這一方面加強是很多。 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
5196.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
5211.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
但是從去年開始有一個數據我覺得是令人比較擔心這是全世界的數據就是目前來講在公司內部直接的竊取機密或者在公司內部他可能插一個USB然後直接讓他中毒 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
5212.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
5238.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
或者他做了某些事情配合外部的攻擊他們說現在已經快超過50%了也就是說現在呢我們在做紅隊演練的時候必須要把這個加進去那我在這一個相關的這個數據裡面就有看到目前以歐盟跟美國來講他們的平均值大概一年一家公司是花4000萬到5000萬只做內部就是只管內部控管這件事情就是內部的人譬如說他的背景的調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
5239.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
5266.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
還有現在很多根本就禁止你使用USB就是NIST就是之前在做那一個AI評比的那一個他們在去年的時候有公布了一個標準應該是2022就有了啦那去年有在把它最佳化它有一個標準就是說我們對內人員的一個管控那當然我覺得以國安局來講對內人員的管控本來就有在做但是它配合資安的對內人員的一個管控這是一個新東西所以呢我就想說這邊有講說資安人員的專業證照啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
5268.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
5286.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
因為這個專業證照還沒有包含到內部威脅那我在想說國安局可不可以先做給其他部會看就是把這個東西也把它納入這部分有跟委員報告一下資安的部分一來是資安本身硬體的部分再來就是涉及到資安的人安的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
5287.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
5305.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
在經費的投注上我們當然花很多的經費來強化我們在硬體部分的一個建置那在人安的部分我們除了硬體上的實體隔離以外也都嚴格的禁絕我們的同仁攜帶個人的USB或相關連接電腦的設備進入營區所以我們在營區的門口是有相關的管制作為這大概是第一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
5306.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
5307.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
尤其這種行為模式的分析現在反而變得很紅 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
5324.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
5339.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
所以就是說這幾年如果國安局在行為模式的分析有什麼經驗的話應該能夠給其他的國安的尤其因為現在情報部門多嘛對不對就是把這樣的機制給他們然後讓他們在編列預算的時候能夠把這一個相關的教育訓練也拿進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
5340.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
5355.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
這部分也跟委員說明報告一下因為就國安局來講我剛才跟羅美玲委員在做說明的是那我們除了去注意我們自己本身局內的治安以外我們對於除了國安局以外還有11個情報機關對於他們的資訊安全我們也非常重視 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
5356.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
5383.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
那這部分我們一方面是透過教育訓練或聯合工坊演練的方式來提升他們的能量我沒有記錯的話在未來這兩年三年應該培訓我們國安團隊的資安人員可以達到3000人次以上那另外一部分是在經費的補助我們也會去瞭解一下我們相關國安團隊的資安環境到底有沒有需要再測進的地方那有必要的話在硬體設備還有在相關的技術經驗的分享上經費的 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
5385.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
5410.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
投注上我們都有在協助我們其他的國安單位因為這邊我們就不講預算的細項但是就像我講的現在各公司尤其是大公司大概就是平均一年花4千萬到5千萬只做這個Internal Threat那我相信國安局在這方面的預算有可能不一定夠所以呢這個就是等到我們在講細部預算的時候呢我們譬如說先怕這個專業證照這個部分先把新標準放進去這是一定本來就要做而且這跟本來局內在做的事情是一致的 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
5410.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
5425.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
接下來我們可以去看一下國外花這個四五千萬到底他們是花在哪一些部分哪一些是局裡面還缺的我覺得可以在細項的時候我們來討論這件事情這個我就先要跳過這個就是我剛剛講的NIST的一些新標準這個我都先跳過一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
5426.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
5455.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
現在目前來說除了我剛剛講的就是不管是教育的訓練、內容等等之類現在目前美國是有這個NITTF英國是CPNI那歐盟是透過這個NIS2的這個指令所以他們都有一些特殊的一些資安治理架構那這個東西呢的確稍微還是比較新一點我在跟各個這個大公司尤其是美國的大公司的資安長在討論的時候他們說這不是只有在國安單位缺樓現在連有些企業做得都還不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
5456.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
5474.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
所以這個是未來的大方向所以這一個部分呢我想會在下一個年度的時候我們可能會對不管是國安局國防部要求就他可能甚至需要有一些應變小組啊什麼等等之類的在內部做創設那接下來我還有另外一件事情我剛突然想到就是因為雖然今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
5474.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
5498.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
我們沒有國土辦就是關鍵基礎設施但因為關鍵基礎設施跟國安局還是有非常強的關係但因為關鍵基礎設施我們現在人力是有不足的他面臨的狀況跟國防部有點類似人力不足我覺得國安局還好但是那個關鍵基礎設施會那他們人力不足的時候呢他們會更多時候去找廠商那他一旦找廠商之後呢廠商有沒有符合我們剛剛那些規範那完全是另外一件事了 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
5499.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
5524.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
就像我們剛剛講我們教育訓練什麼對其他的情報機關會去協助這個都有但廠商未必有這個能力有些廠商他也不夠大他甚至有些他只是譬如說保全公司那他如果對因為他們畢竟譬如說他在巡邏關鍵金屬設施啊他一定會有一些機密啊他的那個他每天的班表啊什麼等等之類的這個有時候呢從與其從外部駭客攻擊我看直接找這個保全公司大概機密就可以洩露了 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
5524.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
5542.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
所以這個有可能必須也要國安局要嘗試去協助就是說我們在契約訂定上面我們可能沒辦法直接做這個公司但是假設我們的關鍵基礎設施有外包的他外包的那一個契約上面有一些標準的要求是不是可以一致的就是我們局裡面做到的要求我們在契約上要求其他廠商也做到這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
5543.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
5559.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
這部分我們可以來提供給其他部會來參考那我想委員很正確的提出來了就關鍵基礎設施的維護現在可能有很多單位都非常重視偽商那這偽商的部分假如說在資安管理的授權權限過高的話他很有可能會造成一些資安疑慮的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
5560.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
5587.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
那另外怎麼樣透過契約的方式來讓廠商這個部分有更大的一個權責必須要負起相關治安外卸的責任這部分可能契約要來加強那再來就是相關的委外的廠商他有沒有涉入背景的查查那這在我們國安單位我們向來是列為最優先的工作但這部分在政府其他單位感覺上這方面的知覺還不太夠那這部分我們在提醒各單位應該要來注意這部分的重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
5587.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
5588.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
謝謝主席麻煩蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
5620.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
5638.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
謝謝主席 王委員早局長其實我們在國家情報的收集有蠻大的一塊部分是來自於跟友盟之間的交換這個很重要交換不只是為了擴大獲取情報的面積還有一個很重要是去verify第三方意見來確認這情報是否真實 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
5642.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
5671.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
目前美國政局在經歷變動日本的政局也剛變動完成也就台灣對外最重要的關係現在在地緣政治上都有一些變化我們不能天真去相信以往怎麼樣未來就怎麼樣但我們也要做好一些接觸跟準備今天早上川普正式任命了Rubio這台灣的老朋友擔任國務卿那我再加上兩個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
5672.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
5695.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
這讓他的國安團隊大概都成型了另外一位是這一個CIA的局長雷奇克里夫另外還有國安顧問Michael Woods當然昨天還公佈了國防部長你對這一些川普目前任命的國安團隊國安局有沒有對他們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
5696.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5701.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
這部分剛剛在進來會議室之前媒體有在關切那我的態度是我們不針對個別的人士來評論這畢竟要尊重外國政府的一個政治的運作那但是就整體的人士任命有沒有哪些意涵我們可以提出一些觀察 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5721.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5749.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
對 那我們認為可能未來美國新政府上來之後應該施政上會有兩個主軸一個部分就美國優先那另外一個部分就是遏制中國那這兩個大概就是主要的施政的一個重點那國安局當然會這個判斷其實很重要因為美國在未來4年川普的路線會影響到我們的國家安全重要嗎當然影響到我們在地緣政治的外交的合作也很重要還會影響到我們的經濟對台灣來講經濟其實是國安的一部分是 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5750.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5764.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
我看了這些名單像都有參議員、眾議員出身然後裡面大概第一個對川普的忠誠度大概是很前面的考量因素也就是他能夠貫徹川普的意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5765.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5790.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
第二是對中國的態度很強硬像這個CIA的這一位局長他其實前兩三年是擔任美國的情報總監我相信國安局跟他有接觸那這一位雷克里夫他曾經把中國定義為美國是中國是美國第二次世界大戰以來最大的威脅我相信局長是外交出身的這個應該有了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5791.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5819.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
另外呢白宮的國安顧問Michael Woods他在眾議院的時候他是對中政策的這個特殊委員會的成員那我們也跟他有所接觸他也是加速對台提供軍售物資的Tiger Team的領導人之一然後他也是對中國強硬派所以你剛才分析也對啦第一個他們是對中強硬派第二個其實他們還有一個共通的特色Rubio反左 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5820.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5840.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
對於美國的左傾他們其實是那個態度蠻一致的第三個是對非法移民的態度這大概是這一個團隊的定性那我接下來請教我們局長國安局以及國安局所轄的勤工單位跟目前川普建構起來的國安團隊過去有沒有接觸的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5841.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5842.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
你們跟雷克里夫有沒有合作過?他以前是情報總監 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5861.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5862.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
請委員可以理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5886.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5910.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
這個我們在這些接觸當中那事實上也要注意到一些訊息因為目前在日本也有產生就是第一個移美第二個移川這個川普那第三個會質疑我在日本的媒體看到質疑日本本身跟美國的關係在台灣就變成移美移川移賴啦比方說這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5912.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5927.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
金片這個事情我不知道國安局有沒有掌握他他完整的翻譯我去看了幾次尤其最近一次接受這個Joe Podcaster的訪問他其實內容是講說台灣掌握了搶走的全世界大多數的金片生意 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5928.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5944.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
臺灣因為臺灣做得很好因為他當時是對他的政治對手在攻擊因為美國有一群糟糕的官僚他的全文是這一個啦他是反對補貼主義的那對川普的單邊主義也事實上如果我們回頭去看QUAD |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5945.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5973.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
QWAD是在陸克文2007年安倍提出2008年澳洲的陸克文總理因為中國的影響退出後來到2017年重新啟動這個QWAD四邊對話是川普應該是19還是20年把四邊對話要提升到區域安全共同願景那時候是川普派他的國務卿蓬佩奧才有亞洲北約是這樣一個脈絡下來的就未必都是純單邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5975.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5995.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
所以川普將就任他的國安團隊也開始在交接當中我希望國安局跟你們所督導的勤工單位要跟美方可能在未來工作的步調上還有灰色地帶啦AI啦網路的衝突上要有一些接觸你們目前有沒有啟動這樣的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5996.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
6018.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
對我們事實上跟國際有門跟理念相近國家在戰略溝通跟情報聯繫上都非常的緊密那正如委員所提到的很多聯繫的重點一來是在中共的軍事的活動跟動態它已經變成是一個不單是台海的議題也是整個區域安全的議題那這是一個重點那另外是對於各種複合式的威脅還有灰色地帶的操作 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
6018.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
6042.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
那很多的國際網友他們也在擔心這樣的議題因為在民主選舉過程當中假如有境外的勢力在操弄國內的民主選舉的話那這對民主價值跟體制是一個非常大的危害美國他們未來會投入資源在特別AI對國家安全的影響比如說有一個課題就是我們怎麼去辨識這是正確的我今天本來要播那個沈伯陽的影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
6044.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
6068.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
我那影片把它拍得太可愛了那是假的啦我還看到很多台灣名人的影片在那邊講一些話他就AI生成的deep fake那這些東西怎麼去辨識假的另外怎麼樣去掌握國家安全相關被AI攻擊做情報偵測我覺得美國有這樣的政策形成台灣面對威脅的第一線我們應該要投入資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
6068.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
6090.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
我現在跳到最後一個題目因為時間有限本期長期關心我們國安局特勤人員的保險意外保險我相信特勤中心應該有印象當年我不是去年我第9屆開始就發現真正面對威脅的國安特勤人員的保險的保額是憲兵的三分之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
6091.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
6091.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那在 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
6111.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
6135.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
國軍的部分在今年有修訂草案國軍特殊勤務指的是縣特啦就是特殊勤務團體意外保險執行任務因公意外死亡呢把一千萬又調高到兩千萬就縣兵這邊調高了那我們有一個特勤出去內中外衛這個當然就會有不同的單位組成你看下一頁前一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
6137.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
6163.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
下一頁下一頁所以呢我們看整個目前在特種勤務的狀況下是形成憲兵已經擬調高到兩千萬那我們經過這幾年的努力把這個我們的維安特勤人員逐漸走向一千萬我現在請教局長最後的一個問題那管局有沒有計畫要調高到兩千萬跟憲兵特勤勤務一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
6164.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
6176.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
對,謝謝委員的關心,長期以來對我們特勤的支持,那也在委員的督導之下,我們已經調高飽和到一千萬,那至於未來要不要再比照來提高到兩千萬,這我們來評估,那預算的編列也從...我知道,我知道,會比較對,會比較發生了意外的時候,今天兩千,今天幾千,我們當然不希望發生嘛,但我覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
6183.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
6194.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
人命無價我們都希望不要發生但該給我們的弟兄們應該合理的保護應該要一視同仁那憲兵你調高到2000萬他如果獲准 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
6195.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
6218.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
沒有道理我們的特勤人員還是維持到一千萬那保費調高而已那個佔整整體金額其實不高就不要在同一個護衛圈同樣的保鏢特種勤務有兩千萬跟一千萬差異這個不好以往是一千萬跟三百五十萬的差異那好不容易調到一樣了那我不知道為什麼憲兵跑得比較快那國安局跑得比較慢 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
6218.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
6246.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
我建議局長這一個尤其特勤中心如果憲兵調到2000了也找到保險公司了我們沒有理由維持在1000好不好請局長注意到這件事情我們來特別注意好謝謝我們接下來進行詢答委員紅森漢委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
6250.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
6252.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
好想請國安局的蔡局長好黃委員長局長我想要先來問一下這兩天這個在媒體上面大家都看到我們這個前海軍的艦長呂律師那跑到這個珠海的航展上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
6276.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
6293.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
這一番言論目前讓我們看到在中國的社群媒體上面大家在瘋傳他的那一席的話的話我就不想多說了你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去這邊講這話你覺得妥當嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
6298.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
6324.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
對,確實比較不妥當,那也有可能淪為中共在對台政治作戰操作的一個主要的一個訴求。居然我們看到這件事情其實有它很不尋常的地方。第一個,其實它當然是一個海軍艦長,但其實它並不是這個將級以上的軍階。但是中國大批的媒體從各地跑去採訪它。 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
6326.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
6345.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
採訪他以後再把他的影片現在放在中國網路上面其實坦白說我們很我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑這是不是就是一個由中共在後面導的一場戲那李律師只是這上面被交付任務的演員 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
6347.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
6370.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
可是現在我們遇到的問題比較大是說就像前幾天大家在談到吳斯懷的條款可是確實我們現在在這兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九之三條其實我想這個局長應該很清楚我們的這個條文是寫說這個有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
6371.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
6393.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
那因為呂理詩他不是少將以上的人員所以他看起來就逃過了這個九字三條我們這個法規的規範所以從這幾個訊息裡面你甚至會懷疑是不是中共就是特地去找一個不是將級以上的這樣子的退役的人員來說這樣子的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
6397.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
6423.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞?我們尊重委員的一個判斷對於一些退役的將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制這不是尊重的問題我現在的意思是說接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
6424.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
6439.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
退役的軍人來講類似的話或來做類似的表達他看準我就看準你的這個兩人關係條例93的條文我要閃過你這個條文所以我專門找非降級以上的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
6440.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
6460.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
局長,你覺得有沒有可能?可能性不能排除啦那這也凸顯到我們在法律的規範部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為局長我覺得國安局應該針對這些新的中共的手段跟發展其實我覺得我們應該要抱持著隨時對於條文要修訂尤其是加嚴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
6462.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
6462.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
6479.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
6500.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
是對的臺灣啊我覺得這是非常非常非常不妥當而且我們覺得是要要求在不管是軍方也好或者安全單位也好我覺得是絕對要非常嚴格的紀律上面的規範的事情這是第一個想跟部長討論第二部長我想局長上個月底我們也看到福建省發布了第三波的惠台利民的政策尤其是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
6502.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
6520.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
．．． |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
6520.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
6536.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
邱部長強調說他對於臺灣的這個醫療環境的方向有信心表達有信心局長你覺得對於留住臺灣醫護人員你有沒有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
6537.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
6565.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
我們尊重那個衛福部長的一個評估跟判斷那但就這問題來講也跟委員說明一下我們有注意到那福建現在已經變成是中共要推動兩岸促容的一個樣板的一個省份所以他提出非常多所謂的會台的計畫提供各種的工作機會也提供像委員剛所提到的有一些津貼的補助不過跟委員說明的是因為中國大陸他現在的狀況地方政府為了配合中央政策常常會提出很多這一類的計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
6566.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
6592.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
但他到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題因為地方政府他希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助經貼的補助所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫但是要跟委員說明的是目前中共的大陸的經濟情勢就業狀況本身並不好那他對於我們呃國人相關的一個吸引力也不斷的在降低當中所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對台在進行統戰的一個動作 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
6593.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
6612.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
這部分特別跟委員說明一下先要肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們這個在國家整體的安全上面的一個隱患因為過去其實我們對護理人才流失的問題他常常都比較定位成是一個勞動的問題或者是一個醫療照顧上面的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
6613.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
6635.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
但我們確實現在很擔心說現在中國可能是不是在利用臺灣部分領域的這些弱點變成是在打擊臺灣的社會韌性或者是在這個對於你社會韌性在做更進一步的掏空的攻擊那這如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的這個侵犯的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
6636.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
6655.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
這就是安全的問題了所以我不知道局長你有沒有把你剛剛這些相關的資訊其實讓衛福部也知道這真的已經是可能已經是安全上面的問題尤其是我認為國安局可能要多花一點力氣就是說到底中國做這些事情它的動機 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
6657.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
6684.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
他的動機為何,這些相關的情資我覺得也希望能夠更進一步的收集也包括要去掌握那我們對於議題,當然護理人才流失類似的問題或者我們專業人才會不會被流失或者被中國吸引這當然一直以來都是一個很大的議題也不全然只是國安局的問題所以我這邊其實接下來有幾個部分的要求也希望這個局長可以參考第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
6685.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6706.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
我們必須評估中國惠台措施是否有危害台灣醫療安全包括社會任性的意圖這部分要請國安局更審慎的、積極的來評估那第二個是要針對這部分應該要進行系統性的清搜那也包括也很多人在講說中國接受惠台措施將台灣內政化影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6707.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6724.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
各國對於臺灣的認知要有相關的因應以上這幾點當然有些部分主管機關是在衛福部我們都清楚可是就安全方面的評估甚至是因應的建議我覺得這部分也希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6725.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6752.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
所以不管是我們在前面講到鋁理師也好或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員的這樣子的動作也好其實都是對我們這些專業人才其實某部分用一種吸引或統戰的方式這個局長也很清楚我是覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應而不是只是在自己原本的那個視角的範疇裡面那可能是不夠的好不好對 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6753.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6753.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
接下來進行詢答委員徐曉欣委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6788.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6790.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
謝謝主席 那我們有請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6798.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6821.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
謝謝主席 薛委員早今天呢我們主要是針對這個公開部分的國安局的預算書那我看了一下在我們113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表裡面呢第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用的部分那包含是呢大家都認為就是當時有一個這個附帶決議寫到 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6825.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6850.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
美國國安局國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展美國也在國防部112年的8月成立了AI工作小組用來包含國防科技發展國家維護等等當時就希望你們三個月內提出向立法院外交委員會國防委員會的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6853.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6877.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那你們也寫了一些辦理的情形那中間呢也提到了就是說在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安 國安局要招募反制人才可是我們在你們今年的這個預算書公開部分裡面那相關的只有看到了這個其他網路空間工房培訓場域統裁演習管理軟體維護等經費1100萬而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6880.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6897.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
那我想問一下就是說在今年的明年的114年的預算有關於去年大家提的附帶決議就是這個所謂的AI中心等等相關的一些預算來說的話那為什麼沒有在裡面有做相關的提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6898.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6898.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
那請問那請問這些AI小組齁那 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6923.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6943.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
他們研究過後對於實際在臺灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題對那這個部分我們在AI的應用上一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的延期因為AI的作業速度會比較快 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6944.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6944.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
．審查委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6961.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6961.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
．審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6976.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6978.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
這部分大概分兩個層面來看一個部分假如說那個AI的傳善他有涉及到違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6993.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
7019.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
那這個部分我們會依請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦第二部分假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平台它本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話我們會很積極的來跟社群平台做檢舉讓社群平台可以把它下架那第三個部分是假如它AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的那我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息快速澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
7019.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
7035.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
但是局長就如您剛說的因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多我們先放一下影片給大家看這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜他就被放出說一個影片大概可以看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
7035.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
7052.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
我先講這是假訊息他並沒有做這樣的發言可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面但他講的話跟底下的字幕還有他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音但是他底下從來沒有講過這個話 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
7055.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
7075.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
然後呢這個影音呢就在包含是Line上面網路上面很快速的轉傳這個呢高委員他自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事的可是他的轉傳速度仍然是非常快而且這一兩週以來不只這一件還有好幾件那呢他對於這個當事人來說是造成第一個一種傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
7076.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
7092.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
第二因為這個AI做得非常像你就算對口型也對不太出來所以我們有很多的民眾他是在一個誤會之下才去做轉傳的他並沒有惡意但他真的相信這個高委員他有說過這些話所以他們轉傳之後有可能從受害者變成加害者也就是說高委員他可能會試圖想要他當然沒有但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
7104.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
7112.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的這個影片所以我們想要問的是針對這一兩週以來的類似這樣的攻擊您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI的身為攻擊那國安局又要用什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
7126.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
7143.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
對這個影片我們有在網路上注意到那似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片那在進行後製來並跟他講話的內容那這第一部分的說明那第二部分是我們注意到他傳善的管道一個部分是我人提到的賴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
7144.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
7144.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
國安局具體的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
7171.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
7197.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
對那這部分我們在掌握相關的狀況的話剛有說明到網絡的傳散的一個管道這是我們的責任要來確認的那假如說他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話那當然我們也會尊重當事人他是不是有一些法律的作為那到我們的相關的司法檢查機關或國安單位我們是有相關的系統可以來辨識證明說他的影音是偽製的 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
7198.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
7219.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
這部分到時候在法律的公防或偵辦的過程當中就比較能確定過程的刑法。可是這樣的話呢,不是啊,因為局長,這樣的話他比如說好那我假設我是高委員那我去因為有人傳散這個那我去走入司法去提告可是這些民眾他們也不是惡意的他們也是相信了這些所謂他不知道他無法去辨認這個身為那他會從受害者變成加害者那這方面我們國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷的傳散 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
7227.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
7244.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
我們包含是在預算裡面我們的編列還有其實這個過去我特別講我們113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了那請問這附帶決議我們處理的如何在去年一整年乃至於明年來說我們要怎麼樣的去做規劃抑制這類事情的發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
7244.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
7271.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
這是剛剛在書面口頭報告的時候提到未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對台認知作戰滲透作為的揭露而會是本局一個重要工作不過要特別謝謝委員可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來因為這個也是一個社會教育社會提出的過程我建議你們要有一個公開的平台不管是以國安局為主或者是跟其他的單位共同的來協作並不一定要國安局作為主要的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
7272.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
7273.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
對,沒有錯應該的 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
7290.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
7290.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
謝謝徐委員徐委員質詢這個題目很重要很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
7317.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
7321.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
因為任何人都有可能成為受害者這跟黨派無關任何人都有可能被偽造 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
7322.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
7349.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
國家元首可能被偽造下達錯誤的指令天災的時候可能被偽造所以剛才徐委員提出來說我希望我看到國安局的處理不是研究辦理如果確定是偽造的你們美國那個講的嘛要先辨識完你要有delete的能力你不應該讓錯誤的東西持續傷害任何人那個人我不管是誰他只要是被偽造的我們應該有個機制要讓他從網路上這個錯誤的東西不能再散播否則齁那太慢了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
7351.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
7352.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
接下來進行詢答委員陳冠廷委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
7390.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
7391.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
你好 我們請局長來 局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
7398.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
7403.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
國安局公開預算佔年度預算的比例僅不到兩成相比之下國防部及外交部的機密佔比分別是5.12%及6.01%國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
7426.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
7440.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
那剛才我們的這個機密的報告裡面大概是10分鐘15分鐘然後接下來就把這些東西收回去那局長你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎還是局長你要說我們會派員到我們的辦公室來去意義的檢視對不對因為你會到我們的辦公室來去跟我們來說明這個我是聽到很多的這個不同的單位在講這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
7448.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
7476.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
但是我想請教一下,到我們的單位來說明的時候是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告?應該是這樣,機密報告只有立法委員本人那你的國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎?對,我們都有審...是你寫的嗎?當然不是嘛,是整個幕僚機構寫的嘛同樣的我們的整個質詢能夠是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎?當然是整個辦公室嘛我們的揭秘層級是非常的混亂的耶就是說你認為說一個立法委員可以把你們八成,國安局八成的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
7477.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
7492.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
你們跟我報告然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來我的這些國會助理不能看因為為什麼因為沒有相關的你我一直講說機密的這個機密層級的這種我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的這個設定 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
7493.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
7507.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
現在就還是沒有我商量到現在我們這件事情從國防部從外交部到國安局我們提過了幾次每次說我們現在在妥善的在研究我們會提出一個更好的方式跟美國的這種針對機密風險的這種層級來去接軌這個東西我從2016年我在國安會到現在已經聽了大概8年到9年了8年到9年之後我們還是同樣在回歸這樣的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
7517.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
7520.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
委員會報告國安局數十億數百億的預算所以你必須要劃分報案國會幕僚都必須要他的揭秘層級的確認這個部分可不可以局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
7536.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
7551.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
可不可以來檢討一下這到底是誰要負責國安局還是調查局還是國防部我無法知道因為每一個人都說這個我們內部有自己的機制你做好你的機制他做好他的機制但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
7551.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
7552.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
國安的工作包括國安國防外交確實他有高度的機密性 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
7570.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
7592.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
就本局來講會編列機密的預算主要是依照國安局的組織法第9條的規定這是法律的授權至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣也可以提供一些國外的經驗給委員參考以歐洲國家來講幾乎是百分之百的機密沒有對外公開的公開預算歐洲國家是這樣的做法就美國來講的話我們公開的預算已經是美國公開情報單位公開預算的好幾倍 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
7600.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
7618.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
議員提到的另外一部分就是所謂的Security clearance的問題到底立法院這邊除了委員以外還有哪些的幕僚可以來涉密的部分那這可能我們要再尊重一下貴院這邊的相關的一個安排貴院這邊相關的安排對 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
7620.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
7635.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
這是需要討論的,我們有我們的揭秘等級,但立法院這邊的揭秘等級要跟（誰負責審核（對接,這要對接 怎麼樣對接?怎麼樣對接嗎?就是局長你說這個交給立法院,立法院有相關的國安的這種相關的幕僚單位來去判斷我們有或沒有嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
7637.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
7659.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
這個弄到最後就是每一個部門各行其事嘛那回到國防部之前不是有一個案件嗎聯政署的這個三等這個辦事員然後來到這邊來到國防部由聯政署派員的那把所有的機密設置這種內網這樣全部這樣子公開來然後到最後來說這個經過一個多月兩個多月之後他揭秘的這個狀況是怎麼樣還是沒有答覆欸我們部長還是用 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
7660.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
7675.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
其他的方式這樣子的話一圈然後說這個我們會好謹慎的來判斷這個我們尊重法務部什麼所以是誰設定他的解密成績這個由我們國防部我們我們會在建制然後建制講完的時候就就部長馬上就說沒有沒有沒有我們已經已經有了我們要加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7676.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7694.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
所以整個內部的資訊是混亂的這個東西你要好好的去做啦我是認真講就是說最好的方式就是現在開始重新啦從國安局國防部所有的情治單位至少有一個一致的系統我們來好好的做好不好我是認真覺得國安局可能要擔負起這樣子的責任啦那第二個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7695.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7698.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
昨天有那個金融時報有說這個4800億的這個軍售這個軍售案那昨天經過這個我們國防部部長顧部長他是說沒有相關的這樣的狀況沒有說已經有提到清單這樣的部分可是這邊有說一個他有說有這樣的這個情勢啊這個是誰啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7719.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7719.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
市長我知道這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7749.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7771.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
有可能是這個他的訊息來源有錯誤嗎?所以說沒有這個National Security Official嗎?沒有這個國安高層嗎?這個國安高層是誰?為什麼他可以決定在昨天的這個質詢裡面部長是說這個是很機敏的東西欸不適合公開欸可是怎麼可以適合到跟金融時報跟外媒就可以公開是誰決定他的揭秘層級跟他可以分享的層級 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7775.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7793.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
國安高層說的算還是誰說的算?你訂定的機密跟不是機密其實那個落差非常大欸其實我們今年一整年看到所有國防部跟這個國安局有些時候列機密的東西是全部都可以在國際關係討論第一章都可以看到甚至是序章就可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7794.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7821.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以是誰來定所以你說他是在泄密你說某個國會議員他這個泄密可是他得到的資訊不是從國安局這邊來的他們是從其他的管道來的所以變成說真正有在泄密的這種危機的時候我們沒有辦法去應處真的需要知道狀況的沒有辦法去監督如果說這個國安高層講的是真的那就表示說內部的溝通不順暢嘛國防部長不知道國安高層在講什麼東西嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7822.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7828.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
如果是假的話那你要跟金融時報嚴正的跟他們講說不可以這樣子造謠影響到我國跟美國之間的軍購嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7830.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7854.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
如果說我們這個也是機密那個也是機密表示內部溝通不順暢外度監督不能夠去監督沒有這樣的機制我們現在從頭到尾其實我們現在接觸到的東西都是這樣子我必須再強調齁所有預算的審查不是國會議員一個人的工作他是一個辦公室甚至是數個辦公室他聯合要去來去看這個資訊適不適合我應該不用再講說錢上銷的流貫軍社 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7856.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7876.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
這一個案例都有嘛國安密帳投敵我們沒有辦法監督誰有辦法監督就我們還是有一個監督的力量在但是這個監督的力量是必須在合理的範圍不是說我要什麼機密都可以包含國會議員我自己本身也必須要有相關的涉密層級我才能夠看到機密不是說因為我是立法委員就可以看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7878.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7902.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
民選的這些官員當然是有他去這個接密的這個層級在但是除此之外他也必須只在他所工作的範圍內能夠得到這樣子的授權許可我這個東西講了很多這個必須要跨部會來去做聯席會議不然我們都在講假的我上次問外交部說奇怪有些公文這樣子出去你們這個涉密層級是誰訂的我說這個其實應該要國安局來做什麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7905.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7911.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
不是嘛 各自都講各自的話 這個不是這個 你們外交部內部應該比較了解你們這個機密的狀況 可是這樣推來推去 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7913.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7914.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
接下來進行詢答委員賴世保委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7945.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7949.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
謝謝主席 各位先進 請一下蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 那委員長局長早 這個我們看到現在APEC正在開嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7965.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7984.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
那看到說這個習近平跟拜登在APEC要談有關於他們政權交接這段時間簡單過啦用白話文講啦就是政權交接這段時間叫老共不要軍演啦盡可能不要軍演是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7985.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7989.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
有提到拜習會確實會提到美方對於台海情勢穩定的關注有有這樣的希望政權交接不要軍演 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
8004.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
8030.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
我原先這樣解釋,我們尊重,但他原來的條文是這樣不是尊重我嗎?白宮的公告的內容是說會表達對台海安全穩定的關切關切嗎?這個是不是可以解讀啊?這個大家都知道啦,但是我希望從你嘴巴裡面講在現在拜登也好,未來的川普還是要中美兩大國共管台灣,這國有成立嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
8032.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
8038.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
委員的觀察我們都尊重,你們的觀察我們都尊重,同意啦,不要尊重要同意,你同意嗎?我們尊重你這樣說都死你氣,你知道嗎?我們都保留了,都抓不到,那些北省都保留,你是有泥鰍吧?泥鰍很難抓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
8062.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
8071.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
臺灣的安全是等於是看中美兩大國我們要話聲一下啊老師他們兩個人講話林希尼也在那裏啊你沒有交代一下賴總統沒有交代一下林希尼說我關在這裏我要出聲一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
8081.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
8102.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
請各位說明一下APEC的專案國安局大概負責的是維安的安全這部份是我們的職責那其他部份可能假如涉及到外交部門的話應該由外交部門來對外說明比較恰當這個到底哪合理的說掉呀所以你就很難抓住啊這個沒有第一個我要強調的一點在這裡國會電腦我要強調大家都看到等於台灣的安全中美兩大國來共同共管 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
8109.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
8112.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
我們是當事人我們要發聲啊!我們要講話啊!結果我們都不講話就變成他們兩個決定我們的前途喔! |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
8122.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
8145.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
臺美之間的溝通非常緊密跟順暢只要美國有資深官員跟對岸有任何接觸慣例上來講都會讓我方來知道這部分要由外交部門來說明我們跟對岸的溝通現在一邊通一邊不通這才是一個很悲哀的地方這個東西你都不講我們再看另外一個題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
8147.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
8169.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
現在來講臺灣遭受到網路攻擊多不多有在增加對於各樣的網路攻擊除了防禦追蹤以外有沒有人力及時下架對方的站點有沒有可能委員講的是那個所謂認知作戰假訊息嗎對假訊息以及暗網的情緒的部分等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
8170.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
8192.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
有沒有人力有沒有人力有有有因為這部分對因為這部分只要假訊息他違反我們的政府的法令的話國家法令的話我們是可以來進行檢舉要求他下架第一部分第二部分假如假訊息是違反了社群平台網站管理的規定的話我們也可以跟社群平台來檢舉請他下架有這個機制對按網你有沒有辦法人力別管 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
8192.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
8196.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
國防部情報局一列一缸子的長官通通在暗網裡面可以買賣價格多少呢260塊USDT就是要太大幣啊260塊等於差不多260塊美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
8219.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
8235.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
國防部情報局的相關的長官的資料各自的資料了都在這裡都在這裡260塊USDT這一部分國安局你們是管情報的對不過有抓一抓吧這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
8236.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
8254.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
對,我們會注意這些船扇背後有沒有一些有系統的操作這第一部分那第二部分那個資料情資正確與否是不是真的資訊應該要由國防部來經過查證之後再來看是不是我看了一下都好真勒我拖行的不要念了這個不要念了這個你要我給你啦東西260塊台達幣可以買鋼紙你開幾妹 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
8260.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
8264.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
我開始要去看了,開始要...好啦,謝謝,謝謝阿賴斯巴委員,請回,謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
8268.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
8296.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
接下來進行詢答委員王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在蘇清璇委員蘇清璇委員蘇清璇委員不在鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在郭育晴委員郭育晴委員郭育晴委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員不在洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員不在邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
8296.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
8312.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
業源之委員．業源之委員不在今日已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員陳永康委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
8320.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
8339.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從其所定以上如有涉及機密部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理令本席補充說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
8341.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
8357.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
我們的紅頭文件也就是不管是國安局國防部機密文件只能限委員本人來詢問閱讀這是根據秦公法以及我們國防委員會在第9屆經委員會提案決議因為當時曾經爆發有 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
8363.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
8390.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
有委員辦公室的同仁閱讀機密文件所以當時有一個決議的背景也有一個法律的依據那我本席也是贊成把適當的人做適當的classify做機密的分等但在沒有分等之前請依照法律規定處理那114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分本日完成報告及詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
8391.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
8412.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
那接下來的日期請本會委員及委員的辦公室和幕僚同仁注意預算有關國安局預算提案請於11月21日下午5點前截止收件預計12月4日進行竹案審查本日會議到此為止散會 |
| IVOD_ID |
16266 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16266 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-35-13 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-14T08:30:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-14T10:50:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |