| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea10c4563b5e5bf20a90a0be61fea14818edb79b8bfb08e7995ceeeefb98d548d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
「公民投票法」公聽會(第1場)（事由：「公民投票法」公聽會(第1場)） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 影片長度 |
9510 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:30:30 - 11:09:00 |
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481.067 |
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公開會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1932.793 |
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1958.624 |
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好 現在開始開會齁 那主席 因為這個路上有點 路上有些事故齁 有我先代表 代理一下好 針對公民投票法 現有本會委員賴世寶 羅志強 台灣民眾黨黨團等版本提案修正有關公投綁大選案 立法院修法規定公民投票與大選應同日舉行是否妥適 |
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1959.224 |
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1959.244 |
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公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1975.229 |
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1988.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
民權行使等等相關問題我們特別舉辦公聽會聽取各位專家學者的意見我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為法案討論的參考接下來進行程序首先介紹今天的專家學者出席委員及政府機關代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
2010.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
2024.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
國立政治大學選舉研究中心研究員 蔡佳弘南國春秋法律事務所律師 王展興東吳大學法學院講師 張昆聖 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
2039.798 |
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2060.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
經濟民主聯合智庫召集人賴中強賴律師原真聯合法律事務所律師賴秉祥國立台北大學公共行政暨政策學系教授劉家威教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
2064.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
2089.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
東吳大學政治系教授 舒子喬教授前東吳大學政治系教授 謝振裕教授國立清華大學通識教育中心 助理教授 何志勇現在來介紹議會的立法委員 劉許廷 劉委員 |
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2099.06 |
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2126.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
政府機關代表中央學軍委員會副主任委員陳朝健副主任委員內政部政務次長馬世元政務次長行政院行政訴訟及懲戒廳何孝剛法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
2129.923 |
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2138.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
法務部參事 廖江縣參事國立臺北大學公共行政暨政策學系教授 暨俊成教授 |
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2158.769 |
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2187.356 |
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好,那接下來我們要先跟各位報告一下今天公聽會的程序如下首先我們先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言依出席簽討順序為原則每位發言的時間為8分鐘委員要發言的請自主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
2193.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
2198.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言結束則按鈴兩聲現在請部會報告我們先請中選會陳副主委曹健報告謝謝 |
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2218.837 |
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2240.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
主席、委員、在座各位專家、學者、各位女士、先生、請代表中選會就今天公聽會的議題簡略說明如下第一個是有關公投案的一個辦理如果是以瑞士舉辦公投的經驗為例公投與選舉應分開舉行 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
2244.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
2272.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
且公投案件數也應該要有其上限好讓選務機關可以有合理的籌備這一個期間更可以讓民眾有理性思辨的空間跟時間這是從瑞士經驗所得的心得第二個如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
2273.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
2299.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
公投跟選舉是分開辦理的話除了能夠讓選務順遂也能夠讓國家的一個政局穩定有助於朝野邁向更為理性的政黨政治縱使日後要修法來辦理公投也應該要有公投案件數的一個上限 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
2300.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
2300.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
公投聯署 建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
2324.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
2353.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
要聆聽各界的一個聲音而且公投法跟選罷法也應該是在制度上一致為宜同時也要考慮到個人資料保護的一個問題就這一點而言我們的意見跟內政部這個相同認為公投的這個連署不適合來檢附身份證的一個影本或另做其他的一個措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
2356.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
2381.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
有關一指相似或相反公民投票案的處理中選會依舊會持續聆聽各界的聲音收集各國的制度也會依法來進行公投案件的審核如果有相似或相反公投案件已併成案皆為通過者 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
2382.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
2398.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
建議以得票數最高者為準有關修法的內容部分要另外規定首長在公投案未獲通過後應請辭 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
2407.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2419.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
幾點問題第一個問題是現行的一個公投法已經規定人事事項不得作為公投的一個標的如果將公投不通過與這個權責機關的首長應該要這個辭職這會進行不當的這個連結 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2428.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2456.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個狹帶了這個人事案成為公投的一個這個內容與現行的一個規定自有不符會相有所抵觸另外就是政治責任的這個部分不適合用公投法來規定它是屬於憲法或其他法律既有法律尤其是憲法層次的一個規範建議在佐第六點這一個其他的這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2456.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2481.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們建議公投跟選舉分開辦理可以讓公投議題在社會上獲得有效的溝通至於立法委員提議公投的效力另外從兩年延長為四年的部分我們予以尊重其他報告的內容也請 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2483.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2484.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
馬政務次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2511.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2530.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席各位委員以及各位委員先生女士大家早安首先對於各位委員對內政部業務推動的關注與指導表示我們由衷的感謝今天貴委會召開公民投票法公聽會本部也應邀列席深感榮幸所以我們今天對 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2531.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2560.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
公聽會所列的討論提綱僅將內政部的意見來依序說明第一個有關於公民投票案以及社會溝通以及民眾思辨的一個自由意志的展現的一個問題內政部認為說為了使公民投票能夠有理性討論的時間所以現在公民投票規定每兩年舉行一次來拓開這個選舉這個修法使全國性的公民投票能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2560.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2561.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
公投綁大選中選會副主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2580.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2581.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
政務司司長 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2610.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2635.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
之前107年的地方公職人員選舉我們也看到在投開票所產生了一定的亂象那這個造成我們選務人員的一個負擔過重所以能夠審酌我們平衡選務工作執行的可能性跟我們投票的一個公正性這個部分也請大院來參酌那避免爭議來產生 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2638.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2654.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
第三點,有關於連署的部分,如果增列公投連署附國民身份證引本,因為國民身份證本身會揭示個人所有的個資,依照個人資料保護法第15條的規定, |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2656.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2656.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2677.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2703.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
大院跟委員來審慎的橫著至於虛位的連署目前已經有刑事處罰的規範可知處理至於說在目前國內各項有關於連署的部分它的目的性並不同尤其是涉及到選罷有關的連署因為它牽涉到必須要去處理到候選人資格取得 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2704.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2728.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以在公職人員相關的這個連署的部分是要對於公職人員的身份做這個選舉候選的身份做確立那公投提案連署是對於四項的投票來做確立所以這個本質是有一定的差異那本部也認為說採行一致的標準它有它理論上跟實務上能夠有是有困難的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2729.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2746.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
第四點有關於一紙相反的公民投票提案如何處理這部分我們尊重中選會主管機關的權責希望能夠在事先完成一個審核的程序再次提案第五點是有關於公民投票的 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2747.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2765.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
結果跟首長的辭職是否要做這個連結或者是公民投票的效力是否要延長那這部分剛才中選會也表達過意見那本部也是尊重中選會的相關意見那至於說有關於公投法跟公民投票制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2765.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2765.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
委員長 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2784.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2803.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好 謝謝其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報那我們接著我們就請專家學者發言那我們是按初期簽到的順序所以我們第一位請我們的臺北大學公共行政及政策學系教授我們劉家威 劉教授謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2816.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2842.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
主席還有各位委員、機關代表以及今天與會的專家學者大家好今天很榮幸有這個機會來貴院討論公民投票的一個問題那我過去呢在公民投票上面呢也著力蠻多的在我們系上臺北大學公共行政及政策學系所出版的一本專書裡面這本專書叫做《國政治理》 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2846.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2846.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
公聽會議 公民投票法公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2869.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2870.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
公聽會委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2885.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2885.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
民意代表性不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2903.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2928.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
在政治學的研究裡面我們認為政治參與是非常重要的一件事情它體現了公民對這個政治事務公共事務的意見的表達所以代表性是重要的甚至有些國家它採取了在制度上設計了一種制度叫做強制投票也就是那一天一定要放假一定要讓公民投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2930.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2947.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
蘇子喬教授和我曾經做過國外民主國家的投票率研究我們當然那時候看到有這樣強制投票的制度我們就沒有去研究它的因素是什麼因為它的投票率幾乎是百分之百 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2948.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2948.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2973.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2973.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
公投必須綁大選 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
3000.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
3008.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
雖然2021的結果已經呈現了但是現在已經是2024年我們可以重新來討論這個問題甚至我們必須考慮到剛剛機關代表所講到的一個效率的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
3017.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
3033.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
公圖綁大選其實在行政效率上是比較高的成本也是比較低的對於人民的投票來講其實是更方便的我們的人民非常辛苦的在自己的事業跟工作上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
3034.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
3059.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
當然大家也都非常的想要關心公共事務跟政治的議題如果能讓人民出門一次就去投票可以同時投公投跟大選的話這何嘗不是一種辨明的措施而且對民意具有回應性所以我覺得第二題的部分公投綁大選是貴院可以來認真考慮的一個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
3060.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
3063.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
公投連署 死人連署 造假案件並同過去所討論的罷免連署 是否也要附上身份證? |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
3081.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
3081.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
委員會主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
3110.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
3110.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
3111.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
3112.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
《公民投票法》《公民投票法》 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
3141.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
3141.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
公聽會 ８事由８ |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
3165.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
3189.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所謂的新聞媒體說鳥籠公投解放之後那一次之後有大量的提案產生其中應該就是有五個案子它的性質是非常像的跟同婚和反同的議題相關那當時的這個提案因為我們的公投法裡面並沒有把相關的提案的性質如果一樣的話可以並同成一案 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
3190.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
3215.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
但是這樣子的提案可能會就如同剛剛副主委所講的還必須看哪一個投票的結果票數高如果是這樣的情形來做決策的話恐怕不是一個最好的方法所以我贊成可以用數案併成的方式如果它的提案形式是相同的話把它併在一起當然在併之前呢應該就是要開聽證會 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
3217.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
3237.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
提案的領銜人之間來做一個溝通協調這個提案怎麼放上去同一個選票甚至這個聽證會也許一次還沒有辦法解決政治上這麼多爭議應該要開到讓大家有共識為止當然中選會也要以自己的職責對這個相關的議案有發言人的一個權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
3241.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
3243.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
公民投票實現公聽會 執政者行政機關公聽會 執政者行政機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
3262.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
3263.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
公民投票法 公共參與管道 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
3287.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
3287.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
3310.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
3318.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
謝謝 我們謝謝劉教授那我們繼續請南國春秋法律事務所的我們王展興王律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
3327.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
3353.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
主席大院委員各位主管機關的長官還有議會的專家、學者大家早安我很榮幸被邀請來這邊做相關題目的一個發言那這個題目即使主辦單位這邊有提了六個提綱那即使我這邊也是想要從第二個提綱來討論到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
3356.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
3373.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
到底人民的111年的公投的第19案的結果是不是代表全國的民意那這個部分我是有一點不同的意見跟劉老師不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
3374.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
3401.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
不管是哪一次的投票它其實都是一種民意的展現地方選舉跟中央選舉它本來投票力會不一樣不同次這樣的選舉就會有不一樣的看法但是因為台灣長期從107年的公投版大選到110年好幾次的第一次的選舉我想人民大概也慢慢走進公民公投的一個制度也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
3401.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
3401.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
公聽會 ８第1場８ |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
3423.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
3445.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
110年的公投第19案人民共識投票率沒有降107年那麼高但是出來投票的人民支持上都已經有展現他充分的想法不能說這個投票的人數比較低就表示這個不代表全國的名譽這一點我導致台部一樣的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
3447.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
3472.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我們在從比較弱質的職務面來講我自己本身也在政府機關當過法治局處的組長然後我也長期職業多年的律師經驗那我從具戰體比較物質的層面來講今天也有法務部的與會的成員在也有內政部的成員在的長官在跟把徵分證淋粉附在那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
3474.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
3496.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
原組數裡面確實是有一個整合的一個的一個便利性可是我們也要思考到另外一個問題是我們國內或者前世界不法詐騙集團實在太多了多到常常會用一些特定的目的或者一些話術來監傳然後來騙取我們的個人資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
3500.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
3525.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
所以在這個情況之下我比較我們可能是站在一個比較以我當律師來講在職務上常常看見有很多詐騙集團他用一個很冠冕堂皇的理由然後去騙那個人民的徵份證資料或者其他健保卡的資料來各自最後拿去做不法的利用這情況是比比皆至所以到底要怎麼取得一個平衡其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
3527.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3529.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
主管機關提出疑慮與看法提出疑慮與看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3548.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3568.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
致詞我講大部分的互證機關都有辦法去就這個資料去做查核到底這個人是不是所謂的職人連署或者是所謂的區委連署這個提取是就可以做一個突破的查核了而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3568.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3584.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
如果一旦我們訴訟人身分證零一本的話是不是反而會導致很多人有意願講要訴求公投案的人他反而在聯署的時候會打碎長谷會認為說這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3586.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3589.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
反而在這一題上面我會保持一個比較這個丟法會保持一個比較保留的態度而且會建議說如果真的要做一個彈劾的話是不是請跟內政部這邊研究是不是有類似的比如我剛提的 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3611.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3623.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
分證字號跟發生日期做一個雙重檢核來做檢核就可以了而不要把完整的個人的分證資料放下去然後把所有的個資都外檢出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3626.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3627.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
事由．〈公民投票法〉 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3647.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3649.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
必要處置必要處置 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3669.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3682.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
如果這是一個法律規定而不是一個政治捐援如果我們要定化成法律的條文的話請預期的把必要處置至少要把它講清楚說你要做什麼東西這是第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3683.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3703.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
通常來講我們也知道大部分的公投案與我們這幾年我們經歷過的所有公投案我們可以看得出來大部分的公投案它的公投欲止它其實是在捐製一個人民的一個原則性的希望的一個法律的一個案件的一個綱子或者不同意某些法律案件的綱子 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3704.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3730.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
這個部分其實要劃成法規的文字跟明確化其實要有一定的審議時間那有時候可能不是短短的三個月內就完成還要透過相關的主管機關遞就法規文字來做審查所以這個部分我們覺得說這個條文其實是有慷慮的地方而且有一些是政治性的捐贈你又如何劃成具體的法律文字呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3730.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3748.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以不應該把政治性的責任跟法律的責任混在一起所以這個修法我是有一些不同的看法第一條跟第二條的講法是我會覺得說公投跟大選即使反開會慢慢的把它解開來會比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3751.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3772.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
自治上讓多一點的人民在針對公投的題目去做充分理性的討論而且充分的整育這才是針對落實整育民主的一個精神而不是說我透由大選我對人的大選然後一個很激情化的大選把一個本來要好好理性探討的東西綁在一起說真的對 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3774.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3799.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
候選人可能會拿這個去宣傳可是宣傳的語言往往不是針對這個題目的理性探討而是很不理性的一個政治捐言反而沒把事情模糊化所以這個部分我覺得要把它公投綁大權合在一起再改成原來的這個規定我會覺得是有慷慮的那時間也差不多那以上我們就留給下一位委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3804.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3808.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝黃律師那我們繼續請東武大學法學院講師我們的張坤聖教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3827.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3840.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
主席 各位委員 與會的政府機關的同仁跟各位參熱的專家學者 大家晚安 大家好早安 大家好我把我的意見還是依照順序來談第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3844.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3865.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
如何能夠讓公民投票案獲得足夠的社會溝通、公共參與管道以利於人民獲得充分及必要資訊理性思辨展現自由意志跟落實直接民權其實依照目前的規定我們大概目前的機制還算夠也就是說因為我這個地方不能花太多時間就是說第一個公民投票法第10條第三項、第4項、第8項的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3868.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3887.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
其實在一開始提案因為我們也常常到中選會去擔任專家的建議所以我覺得在那個地方補正前的聽證會他所舉辦的部分當然我覺得中選會應該花更多的力氣去做產名在產名的過程當中可能可以讓議題更明確一點所以我覺得以目前的機制在第10條 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3889.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3892.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
中選會可以在它的網頁上增加一個公共討論的平台也就是說在那個地方再去做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3912.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3926.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
我們不得不承認公民投票它是對決式民主的模式如果你要把審議式民主放在前提的時候它前面應該讓民眾有更多對於正反意見的理解所以我覺得公共討論是比較必要的第二個或是直接把它納入公務 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3927.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3941.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
公共政策網路參與平臺 去做固定的討論議案如果這樣的話人民就有更直接可以看到更多的意見來用所以我的建議是如果要再增加的話否則我目前覺得從第10條到第17條規定我覺得中選會已經努力了讓這個機制變得更有參與的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3946.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3949 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3969.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3974.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
主管機關公告公民投票結果起兩年內不得就同一事項重新提起上次公民投票案是在110年12月23日 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3990.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
4016.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
提出所以只要在112年12月23號提出就可以再提案所以就算是國民黨的羅志祥委員們他們所提出的修正法我認為應該也沒有問題那比較有問題的是立法委員的修法要不要受兩年的限制其實我認為要因為在公民投票法第30條第二項的規定立法院審議前項第二款之議案不受立法院治權刑事法第13條規定之限制簡單的說是不受借期不連續的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
4019.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
4038.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
本來就已經有在拘束立法在這個地方做所謂藉其不靈系的例外所以從這個觀點來講我覺得那兩年對立法院一樣會有那個限制但是我覺得應該要有一個立法是針對假使我今天的提案是我在選舉的時候就已經很明確的提案說我是覺得我要用這個來作為我 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
4040.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
4041.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
公佛黨大選比較特別的是在2018年得立的民眾黨跟民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
4063.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
4090.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
民進黨不算得利民眾黨在那一次的臺北市的選舉是得利的那連民進黨在思考的時候都覺得公投不要綁大選免得兩個制度去做混淆而導致因為人力物力的不足了之後會產生的影響為什麼反而在那一次得到不利益的國民黨卻很堅持說我一定要公投綁大選我對這個理解會覺得怪怪的因為理論上來講應該是國民黨得到的那一個不利益他會認為說不行絕對不能公投綁 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
4090.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
4091.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
公投的議題的討論不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
4117.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
4117.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
4135.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
4137.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
人民的意見認為立法者沒有符合 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
4162.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
4178.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
人民直接的意見所以去反對它它應該獨立被思考怎麼會把它放在一起思考所以我一直覺得這個地方怪怪的那如果一定要堅持要總是要去想一個部分用什麼樣的方式去避免2018年的事件以後還會再出現我覺得這個是一定要想的而不是只是說我修個法就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
4179.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
4183.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
民進黨黨團在109年修法第十屆的時候提出說他認為就是怎麼樣把他脫鉤我覺得是一個很贊成民進黨在這個地方的反省因為他本來是得利者 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
4193.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
4213.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
那假造的部分我覺得其實這是舉證責任轉換的問題啦因為本來我們應該是客觀舉證責任所以應該是行政機關要負舉證責任結果我們現在把它轉換為人民要去負舉證當事人協力義務這個思考的點裡面出現一個比較大問題是讓公投比較不容易成立在這個思考我有幾個建議啦是很實務上的建議是我覺得啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
4214.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
4240.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
要杜絕的話,第一個聯署檢附身份證剛好倒過來他很難去怎麼樣?很難去杜絕大量的,為什麼?因為本來就曾經掌握大量名冊的人他反而更容易用所謂的死人聯署跟造假的方式來做所以這部分反而是一個不好的方式我認為是應該用電子簽章或比對健保資料的方式應該是比較有效的方法我覺得這個行政的措施我可以建議是往這個方向去做比較直接 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
4241.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
4259.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
那意見相似相左意見相似相左我只有一個建議是說在思考來講因為行政機關本來就很容易做併案處理就併案處理做一個所謂的如果是創製就做同意的方向如果是複決就做符合定的方向來做創製複決思考所以我這邊沒有多寫因為最重要的是最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
4261.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
4284.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
最後一個我覺得比較有問題的是說怎麼實現啊?三十條的規定啊,舊的三十條的規定是做這樣的思考我想我就不要多講,我要趕快講修正條文但修正條文很奇怪吼第一個,這次修法的問題是為針對公民投票法第30條第1項第二款為領域印入的時候提供任何相應的處罰跟強制性的機制我們只可以行政機關要,但是我們沒有可以立法機關要 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
4285.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
4291.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
那這個地方就很奇怪如果以我的邏輯來講說如果預期的話要辭職那是不是針對立法院直轄市議會、縣議會未能在下一屆修正審議的時候也要解散國會呢?或解散議會呢?相對的思考是一樣你要求行政機關要辭職那是不是要求立法院要那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
4303.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
4305.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
提案人與領選人可申請司法院預知執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
4332.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
4338.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
好 謝謝那我們繼續請原真聯合法律事務所律師賴秉祥賴律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
4358.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
4378.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
主席、在場委員以及各位與會的機關代表還有在場的專家學者跟各位與會代表大家好首先承蒙大院的邀請不過在此以下的發言可能會跟大院立場不太一致也要提醒大院的提案會有違憲的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
4381.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
4398.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
提醒在場機關,其中一案若通過,行政院或總統府要求立即釋憲。以下我不針對提綱,我直接針對提案的部分來進行一個個說明。在院總第20號的委員提案第11006977號的部分, |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
4400.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
4420.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
以下就不再提院長二十號 直接說明他的暗號這個暗號看似非常的技術性操作如果我們用基本權的角度來看的話他應該是在選舉創制複決的一個所謂技術性的規定也就是說他要求所有的公民投票的選項必須印在同一個票裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
4424.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
4424.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
4448.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
4475.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
竟然被立法院大院的一個規定給限制我認為這是有高度違憲疑慮的部分這是第一個案件的部分第二個案件呢11001647號的部分我認為如果這個案件通過總統府跟行政院一定會強力要求要進行釋憲雖然大院可能會透過憲法訴訟法凍結大法官的方式來探訪憲法法庭但是呢我們還是要提出這個有高度違憲的疑慮因為在這個案件裡面呢要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
4477.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4501.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
如果公投通過之後主管機關、相關機關必須要提出相對應的法案而相對應的法案如果沒有達到的話呢必須要辭職那按照我們目前的理解要跟各位提醒的一件事情就是依據4至65號公民投票應該是一個配套措施在我國民意政治的展現裡面呢代議民主才是整個民主政治的 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4502.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4521.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
原則跟核心也就是說只有在代議民主沒辦法落實的情況下才有這一個所謂的公民投票的展現那如果回到代議民主的權力分立的核心裡面來講的話基本上除了憲法規定之外沒有人可以透過立法程序來要求行政院長甚至是總統來辭職在113憲判9裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4524.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4528.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
總統不受大院監督透過公民投票法可以要求總統等主管機關辭職這是匪夷所思也是高度對我國憲法的挑戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4549.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4560.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
政治歸政治 憲法歸憲法我想這個作為一個法律人或是說作為一個權力機關按照4-185等概念我想我們還是要尊重憲法的核心那第三個部分呢在 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4561.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4586.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
第3個提案就是11002664號的案件裡面它看似是針對這個公投綁大選的一個規定但成如這個剛剛兩三位的專家學者討論裡面在110年全國公民性投票第19案裡面都已經表達不同意的情況下有什麼樣的立場有什麼樣的狀況而且這個提案委員應該也是代表目前國會這個所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4589.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4589.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4608.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4609.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
公投已始公投已始 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4625.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4625.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
《公民投票法》公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4648.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4675.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
立法院做不到而必須叫公民投票來做白話講公民投票的這個發達都代表立法院工人的這個所謂的削弱或立法院工人的不彰那這個所謂的立法院透過這個方式來削弱自身的權利是合理的嗎或者說把自己的權利給帶多掉是合理嗎這是我們要提出的這個說明這樣雖然是在大院的場子不過還是要特別做個說明那最後回到大院所提供的相關的提綱裡面我認為在這個提綱裡面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4676.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4676.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4700.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4722.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
大法官釋之六十五號提到就是說,待民主是核心跟直接的所謂民意展現的情況下,到底今天有什麼樣的狀況是待民主不法展現的。那最後要提到的就是說,在第三案裡面提到的死人連署跟造假案件來講,我認為主管機關中選會應該徹底的說明或說進一步說明在過去以來,我們經歷過數次的公民投票案件, |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4723.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4750.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
那無論是最早開始公民投綁大選來自於後來鬆綁的過程裡面以及在所謂的這個選舉罷免的罷免案件裡面有多少是這個被抓到虛假投票有多少是必須要透過身份證連署的方式來進行因為如果在這個案件裡面大院的立場多數立場是希望透過公民投票的方式來落實或說來促進民意的話那為什麼這時候又突然出現一個要解剖身份證就立場上來講多數的 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4752.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4779.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
大院多數的立委或是多數的民意代表的想法是什麼為什麼在這個法條上看起來會有前後矛盾的情況那接下來就是說回到這一個所謂的公民投票法其他建議來講的話我覺得在我國已經實現多次的公民投票而且公民投票其實有獲得多數同意及沒有獲得多數同意的情況下我論投票率為何那我想都必須要尊重這一個公民投票的結果那尊重公民投票的結果就是既然公民投票法 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4780.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4796.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
原則上已經規定了一定的拘束力那在這個拘束力的情況下如果沒有任何變動的話目前看起來是沒有再度修法的必要也要提醒儲管機關在第二案也就是說辭職的部分可能要高度警戒因為如果假設這個案件通過的話對我國的新政委界才很大危險謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4801.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4810.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
好 謝謝那我們謝謝那我們繼續請經濟民主聯合智庫的召集人我們賴中強 賴律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4818.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4834.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
主席、各位委員、各位先進那時間的關係請容許我就先就討論提綱的第三題關於公投的連署方式是否因為過去有死人連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4834.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4857.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
跟造假連署的案件要求連署人檢附身份證那我要先說明就是死人連署是個假議題啦因為我們知道連署一定會送到戶政事務所去查對那戶政事務所查對的結果那死人連署的名單被剔除的那個檢驗出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4859.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4879.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
比率一定是百分之百 戶政事務所不可能不知道誰是死人連署所以這個題目真正要問的應該是如何面對造假連署 那造假連署我們來看法制上其他國家怎麼做美國有些州的做法是這樣 他會把連署人公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4881.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4903.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
就是說這個案子總共有哪些連署人那你如果發現你的名字被造假你就會去檢舉那當然公佈的做法也許有些人會說那是不是過度的侵犯了個人的隱私那其實立法院過去也有委員提出一個更聰明的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4904.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4915.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
建立一個檢索系統因為既然選委會在查對的時候應該就會把到底這個案子有誰連署就會 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4919.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4933.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
在系統上就會建立那個名冊讓個人可以憑各種的證件去檢驗自己有沒有被冒名連署這個是比較正確的方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4934.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4955.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
那如果真的覺得說這樣都還不夠真的要驗證到是不是本人那我也必須說聯署附身份證也沒有辦法百分之百確保是本人這是一個笨的方法就是難道一個人持有我的身份證影本他就能夠代表我嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4957.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4978.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
就是聯署附身份證也不可能百分之百杜絕所有的假聯署如果真的大院要把這個問題踩到底就是說真的要確認本人聯署的話那倒不如參考經濟民主聯合過去先前提出來的方式就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4980.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
5001.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
開放讓人民可以拿身份證去護證事務所那邊連署去公證人處連署或者去郵局寄發那個拿身份證寄發存證信函給選委會作為連署如果真正要百分之百確保到本人的話做法應該是這樣而不是附身份證那 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
5003.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
5026.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
接著我要講一個可能立法委員立法自己都忘掉的問題如果真的不管是在公投法或者立法委員現在已經確定要積極的在推動在選罷法罷免要附身份證這個都有非常嚴重的違反個人資料保護法的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
5029.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
5045.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
立委可能會說我們總統選舉不是也是附身份證嗎各位不要忘了我們以前的個人資料保護法叫做電腦處理個人資料保護法什麼時候也就是說它只保護電腦裡面的個人資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
5047.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
5048.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
各位立委那是在2012年 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
5071.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
5085.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
2012年10月1號我們的個人資料保護進入到保護紙本身份證、銀本這些都納入個人資料保護的階段我為什麼要講這個各位立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
5086.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
5109.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
歷史上雖然我們的總統、副總統聯署要附身份證到目前有的聯署有效聯署都是在個人資料保護法生效以前1996年許信良跟李洋港 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
5110.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
5130.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
兩千年宋楚瑜2012年宋楚瑜只有這些到這邊我們歷來的總統有效連署用連署附身份證這樣的方式來取得合法競選資格的他都是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
5131.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
5141.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
個人資料保護法從保護電腦資料跨到保護紙本資料這段時間以前的連署那個時代 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
5143.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
5144.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
請問各位立委你們對人民 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
5163.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
5189.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
各自保護的相對應措施是什麼你們真的以為這樣的法律你定下去就有辦法實施嗎當然也許有人會說阿郭台銘2024年的連署不也是在各自法生效後嗎我想那不足為訓郭台銘的連署是台灣史上選舉事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
5190.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
5219.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
被檢察官起訴違反選罷法最多的一個案子它裡面充滿了各種的舞弊而且最後郭台銘先生也沒有登記不要拿郭台銘先生作為例子就是說到目前為止我國所有總統副總統選舉副身份證影本之所以過去有幾個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
5220.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
5243.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
也沒有幾個案子 總共四個案子宋楚瑜兩次 林陽港一次然後許信良一次 只有這四個案子這四個案子都在2012年以前而《個資法》從《電腦處理個人資料保護法》修正為《個人資料保護法》一併保護資本這個時間點是2012年10月1號生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
5246.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
5258.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
各位立委你們如果要讓連署不管是罷免或公投連署附身份證請好好把個人資料保護法看一遍你覺得真的做得到嗎好 謝謝那我們接著邀請我們東武大學政治學系教授謝振宇 謝教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
5274.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
5276.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
主席在座的委員在座的協助專家政府官員代表媒體朋友這樣一個重要的問題但是我們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
5303.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
5319.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
主席不曉得待會兒能不能稍作說明我們出席的委員這麼低那原因是這場不重要還是本來公投就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
5320.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
5341.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
因為立法怠惰或者是行政怠惰把權力回到老百姓的手上所來進行的一場真正所謂的還權移民或者主權債民但是我們似乎好像不是那麼重視原因當然有很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
5342.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
5356.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
過去公投法立法以來已經有20個案子真正所謂的實施把權力還到了人民其中13個案子不通過7個案子通過那這個原因也很多當然最重要的就是怎麼樣讓公投在政治家門 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
5370.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
5399.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
這個公投不分藍綠不分草野的啦他是真的是全民的要有偉大胸懷的政治家才能夠來運作他的嘛但是我們多少次是為了意識形態為了拉抬選情而把選舉跟公投混在一起剛剛政府官員的代表也說到這兩件事情這兩件事情都是國家的事情為什麼不能合在一起我待會也會一一說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
5400.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
5427.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
那另外就是淹沒在那個所謂的選舉的策略裡面而不是真正讓老百姓經過一個理性論辯的過程來瞭解我們國家的重要事項這是第一點我要表達的第二點公投綁大選的問題剛剛也有學者專家贊成也有不贊成的我個人是強烈的贊成公投要綁大選 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
5429.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5429.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5448.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5459.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
全世界的民主國家絕大部分都是公投綁大選剛剛中選會舉一個例子瑞士就不是這個樣子我想中選會的幕僚應該給你們的副主管 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5464.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5490.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
應該收集更多資料瑞士是一個公投很奇怪的不能說很奇怪他3年內甚至有400多件公投一年100多件不可能綁大選嘛所以他在平常時間就很多公投其他絕大部分民主國家都是公投綁大選他要了解重大的民意重大的政策老百姓到底怎麼想 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5492.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5514.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
所以這是我們看到的問題另外剛剛部會的所長又提到說公投裡面不應該有把人事的責任糾結在一起我想那個法案的理解可能有問題也是幕僚提供的這個公投是針對事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5516.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5542.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
而追究責任是針對你既然這個公投過了再兩年也好現在當然建議延長到四年這一段時間你政策執行不利嘛不是用公投來給你罷免或者是什麼不是這樣子所以這一件法案的理解我相信 不會 裡面怎麼會這樣來理解這個法案的精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5543.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5544.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
公投綁大選2018年為例是選票設計上的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5552.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5558.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
有十個案子為什麼不能分成一張或兩張同時而不是要一案一票當然會影響到投票的時間跟開票的時間所以這是技術的問題而不是本質的問題我要花比較多的時間來進一步來說明一下說我們過去通過的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5575.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5600.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
但是政府機關兩年嘛兩年之後好像事不關己他就把它淡乎放在一邊了至少要四年我要舉一個例子待會要舉一個例子加州選舉公民投票的例子我這邊收集的英文版跟中文版加州選舉的時候有英文版中文版還有還有西班牙文版他們對這個事情的重視程度啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5601.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5602.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
政府部門做的解釋又臭又慘 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5626.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5649.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
不曉得中選會的主要的委員會有沒有人通讀全篇啊通讀完之後你到底理解多少然後要讓老百姓最後選舉之前來看這麼我們的很多的公文書啊都有一點是政令宣導我們很多的公文書甚至法院的判決書都好像寺廟的籤詩一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5651.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5663.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
我誇但是解釋個人發揮所長解釋都不同你看人家加州的這個選舉他們在我放到最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5665.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5690.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
加州的選舉裡面他們每一個公投案都有那個快速快速理解它的快速查閱指南跟詳細的那個說明的指南而每一個案子都針對所謂的你贊成這個案子的理由是什麼反對的理由是什麼進一步深論的理由是什麼反對深論的理由是什麼這只是一個簡單的 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5692.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5692.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5720.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5736.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
我今天拿過來這裡的,是2010年,離線在14年前,人家都已經做到多詳細的一個說明我們好像每一年都因循,原地踏步,不曉得多少年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5737.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5754.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
我想我們的行政首長或者是我們的最高當局我們的立法院的大院主席也當過立委這麼多年怎麼樣強化我們整個法令的政策的執行還有另外我要花點時間說我們現在公投法的第30條那是要因履行什麼什麼什麼責任因就是應該要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5765.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5768.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
我們繼續請清華大學通識教育中心兼任助理教授何志勇的教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5804.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5830.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
主席、各位委員、各位與會的政府官員代表跟來賓們大家好我是清華大學同志中心的何志勇今天我來這邊跟大家分享一下我對於公投法修法的一些看法其實我只想問一個問題其實剛剛謝老師也提到公民投票最重要的核心就是我們需要多點人出來投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5831.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5831.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
2020年的美國總統大選是63 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5857.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5883.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
這是一百年來最高的一次兩個老先生對答那是一百年來最高一次有一億五千萬人出來投票今年美國總統大選不到59%的出席率台灣呢 抱歉上一次要超過六成已經要追溯到1968年多久以前 那是半世紀以前的事情台灣不遑多讓2022年的這個台灣直轄市長的選舉投票率是歷史上新低只有59.86% |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5885.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5887.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
中文字幕 by 沛隊字幕組 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5909.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5910.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
民主政治的影響力 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5927.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5947.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
選民的冷漠他覺得我投誰都一樣爛啊結果都一樣沒有改變我根本不投嘛我出去玩算啊所以這個其實不要說公民投票本身連選舉投票率都要降低了所以我們要想說那我們怎樣能夠讓這些人願意出來投票那當然有人說你看瑞士投很多那是跟這個他沒有綁這個大選那是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5948.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5976.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
他真的辦很多的投票那他一年有好多次這個辦那個公投的這個機會那老實說這個是他有他的傳統的環境那美國其實也是美國老早從19世紀開始那時候有本書我不知道大家有看過沒有叫做多科威爾寫的《民主在美國》那就是一個法國人到美國去玩玩了幾個月回來寫邮寄後來出了一本書他說這個在那個他在新英格蘭那個地方那個鎮他去看鎮民裡面鄉鎮裡面的那些官員十幾種全部都是民選的 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5977.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5979.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
臺灣沒有嘛,選舉就是投票,我們到現在還是拿那種最簡單的 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5998.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
6015.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
蓋章去投 人家都用電子投票用打卡什麼真的是人家都上賴太空我們在殺豬公就是我們落後太多我們從技術上落後我們從想法上也落後我們也沒有那個文化所以我們應該要培養我們要想想我們如何透過公投的方式去培養大家參與公共事務 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
6017.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
6018.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
民意代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
6048.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
6048.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
培養大家的習慣 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
6078.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
6078.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
主要是加州希望說 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
6097.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
6121.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
加州法院說現在加州關的犯人太多了違反憲法所以要求他們不要關那麼多人所以他們只好調低門檻不要抓那麼多人當時2014年加州第47號提案就是我們講零元共的事情就是綁期中選舉同一天那今年2024年美國總統大選加州人覺得10年過去遊民太多犯罪率太高到處被搶我們在台灣也看到那個新聞 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
6122.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
6140.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
通過一個第36號提案就是要矯正這個47號提案然後這個獲得七成的支持通過那細節我就不講綁什麼綁總統大選嘛讓大家出來投票嘛那另外一個就是有更有意思的就是在2022年美國這個期中選舉裡面加州還有一個叫做聖伯納·迪諾郡 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
6143.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
6155.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
通過一個這個投票說他不要研究獨立於加州之外要脫應該是脫歐啦脫美還是要脫加州他還是綁這個期中選舉啊欸 通過了所以我覺得說這個東西是說我們怎麼樣透過這樣的機會應該讓大家覺得說我們願意參與願意表達意見不管是創製是複決我覺得都好 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
6163.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
6163.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
《公民投票法》公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
6179.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
6179.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
中文字幕提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
6194.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
6211.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
任何的執政黨不管藍或綠其實都不太希望被公投所自走為什麼呢因為我既然有總統我有國會你就不要給我搞公投來干擾我時政那如果是分裂政府的話那狀況是剛好不太一樣分裂政府是執政黨會覺得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
6213.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
6213.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
國會多數黨公投法 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
6230.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
6248.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
自衡執政者 也能夠牽制國會多數政黨從老百姓的角度來看這是件好事這跟黨派跟一致政府跟少數政府其實沒有太大的相關所以我覺得最後再呼籲一次就是我覺得其實可以回到2017年以前的版本就是我們不要去限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
6249.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
6249.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
現在我們請麥玉珍委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
6290.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
6293.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
謝謝主席 各位親愛的家人 大家早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
6296.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
6299.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
首先我們謝謝我們的各位教授來自不同的領域認同我們的推廣第二個就是要跟各位教授道歉說明因為今天是委員會也是審查預算就是各個委員就不可以到各個委員要去執行為我們人民的血汗錢把關所以各位教授要體諒 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
6325.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
6325.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
6341.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
6341.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
6364.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
6373.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
真實的聽到民意我們教授在來自不同的領域有教出我們的很多優秀的人才所以你們最了解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
6376.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
6376.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
公聽會委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
6404.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
6405.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
政務無義務執行公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
6435.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
6435.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
6457.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6457.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6487.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6493.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
好 謝謝那我們現在繼續請東武大學政治學系教授 舒子喬 舒教授主席 各位委員 在座各位機關代表還有各位與會學者還有媒體朋友們各位好 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6512.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6528.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
很榮幸有這個機會來這邊就這個議題公民投票法的修法的議題提出我自己的一些潛見跟看法因為提到的內容蠻多的時間的關係我會把焦點放在放在這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6531.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6532.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
公投綁大選公投綁大選 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6551.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6578.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
知識的角度來贊成的理由會認為說透過公投綁大選可以提高投票率讓公投更容易通過這是第一個看法第二個理由可以認為說公投綁大選可以降低選務成本行政成本第三個理由可能會認為是說透過公投綁大選可以促進政治人物候選人在競選的過程當中他必須要對公投議題表態這是公投綁大選的主要理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6578.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6600.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
那如果對這個議題抱持一個比較負面看法的、抱持一個比較反對看法的一個觀點會認為是說公投把大選很可能會造成這個在選舉過程中會變成是公投會變成是選民、變成是政黨動員選民的工具那也可以說是這個拉抬選情的工具 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6601.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6629.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
那另外就是說在這樣情況之下公投議題很容易淹沒在這個選戰的煙消當中那模糊了這個公投議題這個這樣的焦點那另外還有一個就是說從有人會認為說從美國的經驗來看從美國各州的公投的經驗來看公投綁大權很普遍所以我們認為說我們公投就認為說公投就是會認為這應該是認為公投綁大權主要理由啦那我剛剛講的說反對的理由是主要這樣的看法那我這邊我覺得值得思考就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6631.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6660.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
到底公投的目的是什麼公投的目的是為了要讓公投容易通過然後盡可能提高投票率這個是作為主要公投主要用意嗎還是認為說我們實施公投主要用意是要盡可能精確的反映這個人民的意志在這個公投過程當中人民的意志能夠在這個公投中能夠比較清楚的展現出來那我會覺得這兩個目的如果去思考的話我覺得後面這個應該才是公投主要的目的而不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6661.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6685.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
盡量要拉高投票率,促進政治參與,但是政治參與很重要假設在選舉過程當中去拉高投票率,讓公投更容易通過我覺得這並不是公投主要的目的而是要讓民眾在公投的過程當中精確的展現自己公民的意志另外我提供一個資料,這個資料是我個人真的去 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6687.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6710.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
過去這段時間很努力去做資料的整理跟收集的就是說從1990年到2021年為止這30年之間全世界有91個國家我是從比較政治的角度來提出這個觀察全世界有91個民主國家前提是民主國家有舉辦過全國性公投我這邊強調是全國性公投不是像美國那種各州公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6711.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6737.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
在這91個民主國家裡面其中有60個國家就是三分之二左右的國家它的公投跟大選是完全脫鉤的他們有舉辦過很多公投可是都沒有跟大選舉辦其中有31個國家都大概是三分之一的國家公投跟大選是同時舉行的所以這樣看起來就是有三分之二大概是六成多的國家公投跟大選是 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6739.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6755.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
脫鉤的是沒有合在一起辦的那我這邊還可以進一步再指出就是說在這個脫鉤的國家裡面事實上有比較多的國家是穩定的、成熟的民主國家所以比較新興的民主國家或是說民主還不是那麼上軌道的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6756.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6780.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
確實公投跟大選同時舉辦的機會是比較多的啦但這背後是什麼原因還可以進一步再去研究只是我先提出這張資料然後我要進一步指出就是說如果以我們看特定國家就是說即使是公投跟大選會合在一起舉辦的國家其實也不是常態我舉個例子好了像紐西蘭在過去30年之間它辦了11次的公投可是其中就是有4次的大選國會大選是跟公投合在一起舉辦的 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6782 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6799.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那就是說那在七四的其他的公投裡面其實也是跟大選是沒有合在一起舉辦的所以我說其實在全世界如果我們如果說不要一直都講瑞士啦因為有時候人說瑞士是一個特定的個案他比較強調直接民主的精神那如果說從全球性的觀察來講我覺得這個這樣的一個資料還也是值得 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6800.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6813.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
是個各位參考的就是說公投綁大選其實並不是一個主流我個人對於公投綁大選這件事情的這樣的修法方向我也是抱持一個比較保留的態度的 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6816.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6843.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
這是第一個我比較關注的議題那因為第二個議題就是提到說為了要避免死人連署、造假的案件所以要修法透過修法方式要求連署人去檢附身分證那這是否恰當我這邊的思考是這樣子就是說其實就陳如剛前面與會者提出的一個看法其實這樣的用意其實是為了要防範造假連署 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6846.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6861.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
臉書的造假我這裡是對於臉書人檢負身份證這樣的修法方向其實是樂觀其成的我不是那麼的覺得他餘力那麼大我這邊主要的論點是認為事實上我們現在的總統、副總統的選舉是透過 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6866.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6882.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
是透過有联署是身份證的联署可是罷免並沒有但是罷免最近就在討論說是不是應該要身份證的联署公投也沒有現在正在討論公投法裡面是不是也要加入這樣的一個這樣的移修法方向我是認為說至少這邊應該是要保持一致的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6885.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6907.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
一致的標準剛剛前面次長有提到就是說本質不同因為一個是要認定這個總統候選人的參選資格一個是公投的成案資格可是我會認為這個本質有什麼不同嗎其實就是要確認到底民眾能不能出來投票啊不管是公民投票還是出來進行選舉投票啊我覺得這兩件事情的本質其實在某種程度上是蠻相同的 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6908.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6929.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
所以我會覺得說,要不然就是一個,我覺得這邊的,我強調的,我這邊可能要強調就是說應該是採一致的標準,要不然就是把那個我們中東選罷法裡面的那個身份證的那個連署的方式也把它取消掉吧那用其他的認證的方式來讓它更符合這個一致的標準所以我是覺得說,這邊我實際上還是保持一個比較開放的態度啦就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6930.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6945.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
三個公投罷免跟選舉這三件事情總統選舉這三件事情的連署程序的標準不一樣我覺得確實有點矛盾那剛剛說的所謂本質的那看法本質的說法我覺得也有些值得斟酌的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6947.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6972.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
一點點時間,還剩半分鐘一個修法方向是提到說重大政策執行如果沒有落實執行的話是不是要怎麼處置我覺得這個問題實際上是一個政治議題我們發現事實上有很多公投議題其實它是很難具體執行的例如假設我們過去台灣加入聯合國那個公投案通過的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6972.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6991.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
或是東奧正名東京奧運正名的公投但那個沒有過啦就是說他如果通過的話那到底要如何具體執行那如果說他沒有辦法真的有辦法執行的話那是不是就會造成這個那個行政首長下台那這部分我覺得值得再斟酌啦因為時間關係我就先談到這邊就教一個位謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6994.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6995.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
蔡家鴻 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
7011.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
7026.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
主席、各位機關代表、各位學術先進今天非常榮幸可以到這邊就今天的討論提供一些個人的意見就第一個大題來講事實上我個人認為台灣在 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
7036.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
7045.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
實施公民投票這段時間以來事實上應該要認真考慮公民投票應該要限制在於 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
7047.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
7068.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
《公民投票法》第2條提到說公民投票法律的覆決、立法原則的創制還有重大政策的創制及覆決個人覺得我們應該把公民投票範圍加以限縮在法律覆決以及立法原則的創制也就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
7070.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
7086.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
重大政策這個重大或是說這個政策事實上是非常的模糊的字眼但是法律的覆決跟法律的創制是比較具體的在這個世界各國來講事實上也是都有潛力可循 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
7087.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
7113.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
那麼這樣的修改會連結到說我們第五個提竿就是如何認定實施必要的處置假如在過去大家如果記憶還在的話在2018年這樣的一種公投之後實項公投之後事實上有些法律就跟著修法了比方說非核家園的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
7114.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
7140.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
所以這就是很明確的必要處置你就不會有說比如說這樣的政策有沒有辦法執行然後有沒有行政首長因此下台的問題事實上在世界各國都是以因為世界各國是議會多數是議會內閣制所以在提出這樣的法律修正的時候事實上在議會已經經過相當多的討論了 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
7143.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
7168.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
現在如果討論之後如果有少數黨是覺得說我們的意見沒有辦法在議會充分表達那表達到公投的時候那麼公投如果真的通過了少數黨提的議會的意見的時候當然這個多數黨的政府也要必須去修法所以這樣的一種公投的運行事實上應該還是比較順暢 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
7171.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
7191.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
臺灣參考瑞士規定若干預算金額以上提出公投所以很多特別公投都被付諸於公民投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
7193.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
7223.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
但是瑞士人 我想他們自己有在思考說是不是這樣的公投有點曠之廢時然後其實並沒有完全符合議會民主的一個精神剛剛其實也有學術先進提到就是說代議政治其實才是我們民主政治的核心那如果說在議會裡面大家可以取得一個共識的話事實上就不需要到這個公投的這個補救措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
7223.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
7225.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
責任政治問題得到解決公投綁大選 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
7248.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
7272.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
如果說公投真的可以體現說少數黨的民意或是說立法過程中的缺陷的時候呢其實我是贊成說公投可以考慮跟大選在一起就像剛剛有學徒先生提到事實上我們不用特別限制說公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
7273.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
7296.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
只能綁大選或是說公投一定不能綁大選事實上只要說在法律過程中有這個需要經過一定的審查連署之後我覺得公投跟大選一起結合事實上並沒有說一定會造成說反而讓民眾的意見淹沒在選戰過程之中那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
7303.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
7321.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
在歷次公投的執行過程中大家可以發現說因為有公投綁大選所以會造成政黨動員我想這是一種制度影響政治的行為的過程在我們台灣的政治文化沒有辦法說走到 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
7323.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
7342.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
純粹由人民團體提出公投這樣的一個階段的時候其實公投綁大選事實上就是說政黨來操控公投事實上似乎是還難以用規定或是說法律來約束當然就是說硬是把公投跟大選分開 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
7343.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
7343.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
政黨動員公投與選舉結合 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
7365.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
7378.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
第三個問題是聯署的問題我們中選會在今年已經公告上線全國性公投電子投票的聯署系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
7380.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
7399.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
事實上大家都可以來試用不管是你要連署不管是要提案或是要連署都可以來使用電子連署電子連署我想應該可以杜絕這種所謂死人連署、造假連署的問題當然會有自然的疑慮或是說會不會有人代替我去連署之類的 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
7400.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
7426.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
那麼我想沒有一個方法是實權實美啦但是比起說用身份證影本這樣連署的方式我覺得電子連署似乎還是比較可信一點而且公投法也已經規定就是說電子連署是全國性投票的一個連署的一個方法我們不能只是停留在紙本連署的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
7427.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
7427.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
7450.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
7452.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
張詩大 公共事務與公民教育系副教授 劉兆龍 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7484.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7499.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
國務委員 主席 國務委員 與會的專家學者 還有各個部會的官員代表 大家好 我是張化師阿劉兆龍關於今天這主題我大概有幾個看法 第一個 我整理了一下我們過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7503.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7521.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
從2004年到現在所有的公投我們可以來看到幾個結果第一個結果其實這個結果還蠻有趣的第一個是說綁不綁大選跟投票率它是不是必然正相關我們可以發現在早期的幾個綁大選我們的投票率從20幾到50幾通通都有第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7522.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7533.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
我們可以看到這個很有趣的差異性那當然啦不綁大選從2021年開始不綁大選我們的投票率是開始偏低的就那一次只有41那 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7536.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7552.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
最後一次修憲公投有榜大選是58我們來看第二個很有趣的觀點如果拿來做表格比較的話我們可以發現到幾件事第一個2018年通過率是最高的10個案子通過了7個 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7554.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7578.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
當2017年之後立法院有通過修法限制了公民投票的門檻當2009年到2017年之間這個很神奇沒有任何一個公民投票案被提出來2018年到2021年的相比可以發現有榜大選的確是投票率比較高但2024年2004年到2006年公投議題也會影響到就是你議題的性質也會影響到投票率 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7584.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7596.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
前期公民投票多半是政治面向2018年之後開始拓展到民生跟教育面向當然人員跟性平的議題跟政黨也是有關係有特定的政黨在 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7601.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7601.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
致詢議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7626.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7651.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
全國性公投不是全國性公投我們拿一個地方型公投那麼多的一個案子來看我們一個主要是以全國性公投為主的國家所以說我們在這個類比上面我們必須要注意到這個差異性這是第一個第二個我覺得台灣人最厲害的一點是什麼你知道嗎就是所有的制度進入了台灣之後我們都會找到它最神奇的神奇可以利用的地方然後去找到它一個精妙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7652.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7652.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
東奧正名公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7674.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7700.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
陳儒剛剛指橋所言這過了也不知道該怎麼辦對不對第二個是過了以後政府不做也不知道該怎麼辦然後第三個是誰會期待他過那這個公投真正最重要的意義是什麼呢真正最重要的意義是誰去連署他誰會去連署那個東奧這名公投答案很簡單就是深綠色、墨綠色的那些民眾會去主動的連署這個所以這整場公投最大的意義是什麼最大意義是那個連署人名冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7701.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7725.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
因為他可以從議題的切割裡面找到這群深綠的支持者到底是誰然後來進行核心的政治動員所以說這個是我研究政治學多年我發現的最神奇的地方就是我們台灣人永遠可以在一個制度當中找到他的心意所以說你會發現未來來講會有政黨不斷的去創造各式各樣的議題去切割出他的核心選民然後來做政治動員那如果這個已經變成了這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7727.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7746.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
公投這個制度的話那我們去期待說公民投票是不是能夠真正的去展現民意這個真實的一面那其實你會發現政黨已經發揮它的它的那個第二個功能所以說我們回頭來看一個問題公民投票我們的目的是什麼我們目的如果說是要展現說讓它過 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7747.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7747.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7767.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7796.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
我個人認為在修法的問題上面我們必須要知道我個人認為說公投綁不綁大選這個問題我個人目前是傾向於就維持限制就好為什麼因為其實我們還是一個以間接民主就是以代議政治為主的國家直接民主應該是例外而不是常態以上是我個人的一個簡短發言謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續邀請臺北大學公共行政及政策學系教授紀俊成 紀教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7806.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7833.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
我們公聽會召集委員張委員各位議會的樓委員以及協助專家各位郭部會的同仁大家好我想公投的問題我們應該了解這個制度設計是做什麼那麼當年的制度只要就是依照這個蔡同榮委員的16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7835.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7861.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
再加上我在內政部民政司所提出來的有關於程序的規定組成的當時我就提出來如果只有16條的話這個條文是不可能施行的所以我在民政司提出來的創出戶決法的程序的規定就納進來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7864.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7887.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
公民投票審議委員會這個制度當時也是我想出來的我為什麼要這個制度主要就是考慮到公民投票是知識體大、勞師動作、影響很多人、耗損國家資源這個制度到底是必要的二還是必要的三 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7888.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7901.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我個人的看法是認為他是一個要門檻要高的制度不能門檻太低沒有想到很多人把它指為是鳥頭的公投結果門檻降低了所以今天為什麼會有這個問題的應該要考慮到當時誰提出來門檻降低的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7913.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7942.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
這是一個最大的惡質如果不是把門檻降低的話怎麼會有那麼多公民投票案呢怎麼會有這個十幾個案的問題呢還有呢公民投票審議委員會這個制度好好的一個制度為什麼要取消呢結果呢現在變成我們中央選舉委員會忙著辦事所以我想這個都是我們要考慮到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7942.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7970.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
那回歸到政體我個人是認為公民投票的制度應該要做前面的檢討還是要回顧到全國性的公民投票它應該是高文函的地方性的投票才是低文函的這樣的制度才合理的我想剛剛有很多的學者專家提到美國那美國為什麼沒有全國性的公民投票呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7971.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7980.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
它不是最民主的國家嗎?可見公民投票有它的限制這是我們在制度設計是要了解的 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7981.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
8009.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
所以我建議啊公民投票的制度呢我們中選會以及啊我們列政部呢應該要前面的檢討不是去說這個要做那個不能做那這都是無意義的我們要前面的檢討哪一個制度是對全民的利益有用的基本上整個民主制度還是要維持議會制度所以議會政治才是最重要的不得已 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
8010.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
8011.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
公聽會議 公聽會議 公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
8033.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
8056.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
沒有想到國民大會智慧武功解決了另外一個問題當時我提出來的是說統獨的問題一定要公民投票沒有這個制度的話未來一定會有內戰的一個危險所以我當時是接一個觀點才主張民進黨所主張的依照憲法第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
8057.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
8070.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
中華民國組織屬於國民前提可以作為公民投票制度的一個基礎我想這個過程也就說明我們公民投票制度是不要隨便做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
8071.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
8099.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
是要高門檻的是要很嚴格的所以說這個是一個理論基礎我向各位說明當時立法的背景是這樣的但是幾次的修改以後門檻降低了所以造成了那麼多的提案甚至於造成了這個投票的數序的混亂的問題但是我們想想看我們投票結果出來以後有執行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
8101.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
8123.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
以核養利通過了嗎?以核養利通過了以後有執行嗎?所以說這個來講不要說這個對那個錯我個人來講的話我是無黨籍的我不是國民黨也不是民進黨我是一個無黨籍的身份我來看問題我覺得該修就修該改就改 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
8124.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
8144.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
基本上我是認為這個門檻的問題牽涉到一個剛剛大家所關心的就是說公民投票的連署人要不要有這個身份證檢驗的問題各位都了解如果我們從一個制度一致性來講的話那麼總統、副總統的連署這個制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
8151.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
8165.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
是怎麼設計的是不是兩個要回來考慮因為我覺得全國性的公投要和地方性公投的制度有一點差異然後要嚴格一點使這個全國性公投相對的減少這是一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
8169.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
8171.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
執行過程中可否討論?當然可以討論,兩年內延長幾年,這是一個設計上的考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
8182.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
8211.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
但是公投是可以來進行討論的所以說像國民黨現在所提出來兩年也就是四年我覺得四年是不是少了一點點但是從一個總統前期的任期四十年來看的話他也有他的道理所以我是覺得是不是可以著重一點就是說和立法院的提案一樣也都三年那這樣的話可能就是一個設計 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
8213.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
8232.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
所以說任何一個制度我們都希望它有一個理論基礎而不是說今天發生了什麼困難我就修改哪一條結果把整個架構亂成一套了亂套了這個是一個很可惜的制度以上意見供參考 謝謝各位好 謝謝那我們現在請羅志強委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
8245.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
8252.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
各位與會的專家學者然後各位委員以及各位我們政府的列席的官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
8255.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
8273.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
新國會智庫委託區市民調公司所作公投的民調顯示臺灣民眾有高達66.3%是支持恢復公投並大選只有21.3%表示不支持也就是有三分之二的民眾認同恢復公投並大選 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
8277.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
8299.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
就算是民進黨的支持者有百分之六十四的民眾是支持公投並大選所以嚴格來講公投並大選以目前來看的話算是超越黨派的一個人民的一個多數的一個共識但是很遺憾的公投並大選這個主張最早提出來就是民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
8300.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
8302.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
蔡同榮公投並大選公投並大選紅水猛獸 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
8316.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
8332.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
但是今天卻因為在2018年民進黨因為在那一次的公投並大選然後發現他們在那次選舉是失敗的於是火速在2019年就把公投跟大選拆開來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
8333.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
8355.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
像這樣的一個所謂的對過去自己主張的一個價值主張神主牌的反覆其實坦白講是我最不能接受的那當然我也必須說公投到底尤其全國性的公投到底門檻要設計多高要設計到什麼程度以及公投選務如何簡化我這些都是可以討論的問題不要舉個例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
8357.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
8373.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
中選會他用兩個理由來反對公投並大選第一就是說2018你看造成選務延宕所以不能公投並大選那第二就是說事跟人不可以混在一起投所以公投不可以並大選我們先來看第一個第一個我就要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
8374.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
8390.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
期待新德總統再當行政院院長針對2018年的選舉所造成的選務的延宕他歸納是兩大因素中選會事前規劃不周、事終處變不急他是規劃認為中選會是自己做不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
8391.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
8413.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
結果 要求中選會檢討這是賴清德當行政院長下的令你中選會要檢討這次檢討 兩個結果第一個 陳奕銓下台陳奕銓大家知道嗎就當時的中選會主委為這個選務的問題下台因為他們中選會選務沒有把它做好第二個是什麼就在隔年把公投大選拆開了這就是所謂的民進黨的檢討但是我就要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
8415.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
8443.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
這個選務所謂的延宕的問題真的不能解決嗎?舉個例子民眾黨就有一個提案啊就是把所有的公投案並列一張公投票上就減少大家一直重複領票浪費的時間或者說今天在所謂的要不要用身份證的門檻來認定的話也都可以有效果的來讓這個所謂公投門檻做一點調整甚至包括選務的更順暢但是民進黨不是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
8444.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
8472.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
民進黨是直接把公投大選拆開來大家都忘了一件事情過去民進黨最堅持公投併大選有一個最重要的理由是什麼他認為兩個第一個公投併大選所以才能夠讓投票率增加投票率增加這公投代表性才會夠第二是公投如果沒併大選因為投票率不夠會注定沒有任何公投能夠通過這兩個理由使得說公投併大選成為一個主張然後後來在我們的公投法當中被實現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
8473.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
8477.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
民進黨在2019年把公投大選拆開來之後結果到了2022年的所謂的18歲投票權的修憲來民進黨提出的時候他是主張公投並大選的 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
8499.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8513.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
那為什麼議會是四根人不可以混淆一會四根人又可以混淆這種完全用政治性的方式來影響今天攸關憲政體制的公民投票制度我覺得真的是非常對不起蔡同仁非常對不起過去民進黨的主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8514.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8538.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
所以在這邊齁我對於公投的一些包括說選務的怎麼樣簡化以及包括像這個連署的門檻身份證的一個要不要取得這部分我認為是可以大家可以共同來討論但是你的公投拆大選結果直接導致是2020年20那個2022年的這個所謂公投的那個併大選的公投拆大選的那個投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8540.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8554.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
幾乎都只有20%的投同意票耶所以他沒有辦法過25%就應驗了民進黨當時的預言嘛他更嚴重的結果是因為根本不會過你就會發現到2023年連一個提案都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8554.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8572.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
因為沒有人要浪費力氣去連署一個不會過的公投公投跟大選只要拆開來就不會過了所以可以調整公投的門檻但是拜託公投跟大選要併起來來實現我們人民的所謂的公投權利這才是我覺得今天最核心的要旨以上 謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請中央大學科爾與極色科系兼任副教授曾建源副教授 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8588.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8600.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
蔣委員 還有在座各位委員 各位機關代表和各位學者先進我這邊就對於公投法修正的議題提供一些意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8602.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8620.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
首先,關於公投綁大選的問題,討論的焦點,主要就是說它的政治或社會成本的問題。如果我們看,正如剛才劉兆龍教授所說的, |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8624.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8644.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
當公投綁大選的時候我們過去的這個經驗證明了一點就是這個它成為一個切割政治市場去找出核心支持者的一個政黨的政治動員的一個工具所以這個使得公投在追求人民最高主權者的意志 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8645.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8666.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
真實意思是因為政黨的介入動員和選舉目的混淆導致公投的問題沒有辦法冷靜地去進行審議這是我們過去的教訓所以才有上一次的修法我也坦誠跟各位報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8668.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8688.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
最早當公投可以綁大選的時候當時我也曾經寫了文章討論這個問題我也看出來公投綁大選它可以進行政治的動員所以當時我跟林佳龍曾經和寫的文章和編的書裡面談到這個問題但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8692.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8692.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8711.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8729.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
公投的這種神聖民主的精神能夠彰顯出來因為沒有經過政黨攸關政權得失的這種政治動員的情況之下只有真正的公共議題他才有機會得到社會的動員 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8731.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8738.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
支持者動員 去除高門檻 因為過去的規定是沒有達到高門檻就視同不通過 反對者不去投票不參與意見 使得公投結果不通過這是一個不負責任的 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8752.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8778.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
公投參與者或主權者的一種態度所以我們把公投的門檻降低讓有意見的、參與審議的來表達意見當然我們唯一的門檻就是必須達到投票權人四分之一這個是我們現在公投法二十九條規定這是合理的因為你要避免參與過低所以使得它的代表性不足所以這個是我們過去公投法實施的一個經驗、教訓 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8781.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8787.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
我認為現行的法律還是應該維持至於談到為了避免投票舉辦的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8801.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8802.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
《公民投票法》公聽會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8832.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8859.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
演化撩亂很容易搞錯所以要避免這方面的爭議其實最笨的方法就是一張票一個提案然後贊成反對或者棄權或者是無效等等在一清二楚一目了然所以我認為現行的制度是多年經驗的一個結晶我們還是要考慮一下它有合理的部分還是應該維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8861.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8889.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
不過這下談到就是說我非常贊同剛才那個季俊成教授所提到的公投審議委員會其實這個制度非常重要我們過去公投審議委員會它原來設計精神是它要去對於這個人民或者是各個提案團體提出來的公投案它的內容比如說有看這個現行的法律用字 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8890.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8904.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
公投提案是一般的民眾公民團體提出來的它未必有法律上的專業所以透過公投審議委員會讓公投投票的結果會具有可執行性所以這個需要專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8908.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8931.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
組成專門委員會對這個進行調整在不違背提案者的原意之下做調整另外可能有類似的公投提案可以透過公投審議委員會來進行併案就好像我們立法院委員會當中可以做成併案的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8934.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8934.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
公訪委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8951.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8952.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
委員會委員會委員會委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8979.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8983.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
中選會就是一個舉辦選舉的一個程序性的機關不涉及到公投審議會甚至會涉及到提案本身實質內容的調整併案調整的問題所以我認為我非常贊同介老師的意見公投審議委員會是有必要來恢復 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
9006.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
9010.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
公投效率拘束年限公投效率拘束年限 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
9029.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
9032.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
總統大選和國會大選舉行4年一次公投的這句說明如果超過2年很可能會跨 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
9046.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
9049.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
新的民意、新的政府、新的國會選舉就是選民意志、主權者意志的重新調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
9062.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
9062.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
王國興議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
9095.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
9097.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
主席 各位在座的先進剛剛因為時間的關係我拿加州的例子的說明沒有辦法比較明確的來說 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
9114.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
9134.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
加州這個2010年的這個案子公投案他是加州公平選舉法案裡面用公共資質候選人特別是州務卿的部分讓州務卿可以得到公共的資助而專心於他的事務這個時間2010年討論最後廢止了過去說不能他的時間是適用於2014跟2018 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
9144.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
9162.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
也就是說我們現在公投說兩年我們政治不要那麼短視政治要放眼長一點的一個這個民主的鞏固跟穩定性讓老百姓來做決定它是州議會通過完之後來交付公民投票它經過兩個門檻 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
9165.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
9186.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
最後那個詳細的部分它針對很多層次包括你贊成的意見包括反駁的贊成的意見包括你反對的意見反駁反對的意見四個層次反覆的論辯來形成這個案子而最後這些東西都在選舉公報裡面呈現開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
9189.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
9213.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
那個才是真正公投的精神正反兩方而且不斷的思辨下去不是像現在我們落落等然後不知道裡面在講什麼內容我想這個部分有關相關的部會應該仔細的來參考民主先進國家人家怎麼做怎麼來擬定一個比較可長可久他也不是說無限的 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
9214.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
9215.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
9241.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
9250.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
那 我們與會的機關代表也要回應了嗎好 我們請中選會陳副主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
9256.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
9272.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
中選會這邊做幾點這個剛剛專家學者所提到的這個內容的回應第一就是多案公投案要併在一張選票上在法律上跟實務上均屬不可行 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
9273.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
9273.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
公聽委員：完整會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
9295.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
9304.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
多案公投票 如果併成一票 會導致實務上無法認定有效票或無效票 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
9311.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
9337.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
差邊的一個原則他如果已經蓋到這個統一票那他可以當作是統一票來處理但是如列在這一張選票中那萬一他蓋的是多個案子中的那個邊緣這個地帶會導致是要認定一票一案無效票還是兩案無效票加上剛剛專家學者也提出來當他這個多案併為這個一票時 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
9340.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
9355.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
會導致公眾的監督以及在場監察員的監督有實務上極大的困難更會導致在唱票過程中有可能會跳案來唱票所以選舉實務確實也不可行 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
9359.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
9385.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
最後就是多案這一票的做法在有些國家它之所以有被採行是因為它投票的一個技術投票的一個方法與我國的一個規定有所不同但是我們必須要了解到的是公民對於公眾的社會信任度仍然相信我們現在的投票方式是屬於最好的投票方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
9386.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
9412.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
以各位剛剛所提出來的投票來說有些專家學者說我們應該可以引進電子或網路投票全球可能最期待台灣採選網路投票、電子投票的國家會是我們敵對的境外勢力各位可以想像一下這難道會是我們希望公開、透明、可受公眾監督的選務嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
9414.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
9421.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
除此之外如果我們站在公民意志的展現來看應該是一案一票才能展現 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
9422.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
9449.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
各案公民的意志這也是我們學理上、法律上以及實務上所能夠了解的一個地方其他的議題我們剛剛在報告過程中已經做過初步的意見表達我們認為要維持選務的安定只是一部分要維持國家的安定走向更為理性的討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
9451.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
9460.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
促成更為理性的政黨政治那公投跟選舉應該是要分開辦理委員以上補充好 謝謝有嗎?內政部有嗎?請馬次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
9475.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
9498.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
主席還有各位委員先進那內政部補充一個意見就是說還是強調針對利用身份證連署這個影本連署這樣的一個方式這個對於我們的個資跟目前我們在推動反詐騙跟保護這個我們民眾的資料不至於被濫用 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
9498.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9499.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
好,謝謝那 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9527.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9530.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
還有沒有我們學者要第二輪發言? |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9533.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9560.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
如果沒有的話感謝各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見所有初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員會及所有初列席人員參考再次感謝大家的參與跟各位專家學者報告我們今天有準備便當謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束先來散會 |
| IVOD_ID |
16265 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16265 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-14 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-14T08:30:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-14T11:09:00+08:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |